alt.atheism	alt atheism faq atheist resources archive name atheism resources alt atheism archive name resources last modified december version atheist resources addresses atheist organizations usa freedom from religion foundation darwin fish bumper stickers and assorted other atheist paraphernalia are available from the freedom from religion foundation the write ffrf box madison telephone evolution designs evolution designs sell the darwin fish fish symbol like the ones christians stick their cars but with feet and the word darwin written inside the deluxe moulded plastic fish postpaid the write evolution designs laurel canyon north hollywood people the san francisco bay area can get darwin fish from lynn gold try mailing figmo netcom com for net people who lynn directly the price per fish american atheist press aap publish various atheist books critiques the bible lists biblical contradictions and one such book the bible handbook ball and foote american atheist press isbn edition bible contradictions absurdities atrocities immoralities contains ball foote the bible contradicts itself aap based the king james version the bible write american atheist press box austin cameron road austin telephone fax prometheus books sell books including haught holy horrors see below write east amherst street buffalo new york telephone alternate address which may newer older prometheus books glenn drive buffalo african americans for humanism organization promoting black secular humanism and uncovering the history black freethought they publish quarterly newsletter aah examiner write norm allen african americans for humanism box buffalo united kingdom rationalist press association national secular society islington high street holloway road london london british humanist association south place ethical society lamb conduit passage conway hall london red lion square london fax the national secular society publish the freethinker monthly magazine founded germany ibka internationaler bund der konfessionslosen und atheisten postfach berlin germany ibka publish journal miz materialien und informationen zur zeit politisches journal der konfessionslosesn und atheisten hrsg ibka miz vertrieb postfach berlin germany for atheist books write ibdk internationaler ucherdienst der konfessionslosen postfach hannover germany telephone books fiction thomas disch the santa claus compromise short story the ultimate proof that santa exists all characters and events are fictitious any similarity living dead gods well walter miller canticle for leibowitz one gem this post atomic doomsday novel the monks who spent their lives copying blueprints from saint leibowitz filling the sheets paper with ink and leaving white lines and letters edgar pangborn davy post atomic doomsday novel set clerical states the church for example forbids that anyone produce describe use any substance containing atoms philip dick philip dick dick wrote many philosophical and thought provoking short stories and novels his stories are bizarre times but very approachable wrote mainly but wrote about people truth and religion rather than technology although often believed that had met some sort god remained sceptical amongst his novels the following are some relevance galactic pot healer fallible alien deity summons group earth craftsmen and women remote planet raise giant cathedral from beneath the oceans when the deity begins demand faith from the earthers pot healer joe fernwright unable comply polished ironic and amusing novel maze death noteworthy for its description technology based religion valis the schizophrenic hero searches for the hidden mysteries gnostic christianity after reality fired into his brain pink laser beam unknown but possibly divine origin accompanied his dogmatic and dismissively atheist friend and assorted other odd characters the divine invasion god invades earth making young woman pregnant she returns from another star system unfortunately she terminally ill and must assisted dead man whose brain wired hour easy listening music margaret atwood the handmaid tale story based the premise that the congress mysteriously assassinated and fundamentalists quickly take charge the nation set right again the book the diary woman life she tries live under the new christian theocracy women right own property revoked and their bank accounts are closed sinful luxuries are outlawed and the radio only used for readings from the bible crimes are punished retroactively doctors who performed legal abortions the old world are hunted down and hanged atwood writing style difficult get used first but the tale grows more and more chilling goes various authors the bible this somewhat dull and rambling work has often been criticized however probably worth reading only that you know what all the fuss about exists many different versions make sure you get the one true version books non fiction peter rosa vicars christ bantam press although rosa seems christian even catholic this very enlighting history papal immoralities adulteries fallacies etc german translation gottes erste diener die dunkle seite des papsttums droemer knaur michael martin atheism philosophical justification temple university press philadelphia usa detailed and scholarly justification atheism contains outstanding appendix defining terminology and usage this necessarily tendentious area argues both for negative atheism the non belief the existence god and also for positive atheism the belief the non existence god includes great refutations the most challenging arguments for god particular attention paid refuting contempory theists such platinga and swinburne pages isbn hardcover paperback also available the case against christianity temple university press comprehensive critique christianity which considers the best contemporary defences christianity and ultimately demonstrates that they are unsupportable and incoherent pages isbn james turner without god without creed the johns hopkins university press baltimore usa subtitled the origins unbelief america examines the way which unbelief whether agnostic atheistic became mainstream alternative world view focusses the period and while considering france and britain the emphasis american and particularly new england developments neither religious history secularization atheism without god without creed rather the intellectual history the fate single idea the belief that god exists pages isbn hardcover paper george seldes editor the great thoughts ballantine books new york usa dictionary quotations different kind concentrating statements and writings which explicitly implicitly present the person philosophy and world view includes obscure and often suppressed opinions from many people for some popular observations traces the way which various people expressed and twisted the idea over the centuries quite number the quotations are derived from cardiff what great men think religion and noyes views religion pages isbn paper richard swinburne the existence god revised edition clarendon paperbacks oxford this book the second volume trilogy that began with the coherence theism and was concluded with faith and reason this work swinburne attempts construct series inductive arguments for the existence god his arguments which are somewhat tendentious and rely upon the imputation late century western christian values and aesthetics god which supposedly simple can conceived were decisively rejected mackie the miracle theism the revised edition the existence god swinburne includes appendix which makes somewhat incoherent attempt rebut mackie mackie the miracle theism oxford this posthumous volume contains comprehensive review the principal arguments for and against the existence god ranges from the classical philosophical positions descartes anselm berkeley hume through the moral arguments newman kant and sidgwick the recent restatements the classical theses plantinga and swinburne also addresses those positions which push the concept god beyond the realm the rational such those kierkegaard kung and philips well replacements for god such lelie axiarchism the book delight read less formalistic and better written than martin works and refreshingly direct when compared with the hand waving swinburne james haught holy horrors illustrated history religious murder and madness prometheus books looks religious persecution from ancient times the present day and not only christians library congress catalog card number norm allen african american humanism anthology see the listing for african americans for humanism above gordon stein anthology atheism and rationalism prometheus books anthology covering wide range subjects including the devil evil and morality and the history freethought comprehensive bibliography edmund cohen the mind the bible believer prometheus books study why people become christian fundamentalists and what effect has them net resources there small mail based archive server mantis which carries archives old alt atheism moderated articles and assorted other files for more information send mail archive server mantis saying help send atheism index and will mail back reply mathew
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq introduction atheism archive name atheism introduction alt atheism archive name introduction last modified april version begin pgp signed message introduction atheism mathew mathew mantis this article attempts provide general introduction atheism whilst have tried neutral possible regarding contentious issues you should always remember that this document represents only one viewpoint would encourage you read widely and draw your own conclusions some relevant books are listed companion article provide sense cohesion and progression have presented this article imaginary conversation between atheist and theist all the questions asked the imaginary theist are questions which have been cropped repeatedly alt atheism since the newsgroup was created some other frequently asked questions are answered companion article please note that this article arguably slanted towards answering questions posed from christian viewpoint this because the faq files reflect questions which have actually been asked and predominantly christians who proselytize alt atheism when talk religion talking primarily about religions such christianity judaism and islam which involve some sort superhuman divine being much the discussion will apply other religions but some may not what atheism atheism characterized absence belief the existence god some atheists further and believe that god does not exist the former often referred the weak atheist position and the latter strong atheism important note the difference between these two positions weak atheism simple scepticism disbelief the existence god strong atheism positive belief that god does not exist please not fall into the trap assuming that all atheists are strong atheists some atheists believe the non existence all gods others limit their atheism specific gods such the christian god rather than making flat out denials but isn disbelieving god the same thing believing doesn exist definitely not disbelief proposition means that one does not believe true not believing that something true not equivalent believing that false one may simply have idea whether true not which brings agnosticism what agnosticism then the term agnosticism was coined professor huxley meeting the metaphysical society defined agnostic someone who disclaimed strong atheism and believed that the ultimate origin things must some cause unknown and unknowable thus agnostic someone who believes that not and cannot know for sure whether god exists words are slippery things and language inexact beware assuming that you can work out someone philosophical point view simply from the fact that she calls herself atheist agnostic for example many people use agnosticism mean weak atheism and use the word atheism only when referring strong atheism beware also that because the word atheist has many shades meaning very difficult generalize about atheists about all you can say for sure that atheists don believe god for example certainly isn the case that all atheists believe that science the best way find out about the universe what the philosophical justification basis for atheism there are many philosophical justifications for atheism find out why particular person chooses atheist best ask her many atheists feel that the idea god presented the major religions essentially self contradictory and that logically impossible that such god could exist others are atheists through scepticism because they see evidence that god exists but isn impossible prove the non existence something there are many counter examples such statement for example quite simple prove that there does not exist prime number larger than all other prime numbers course this deals with well defined objects obeying well defined rules whether gods universes are similarly well defined matter for debate however assuming for the moment that the existence god not provably impossible there are still subtle reasons for assuming the non existence god assume that something does not exist always possible show that this assumption invalid finding single counter example the other hand assume that something does exist and the thing question not provably impossible showing that the assumption invalid may require exhaustive search all possible places where such thing might found show that isn there such exhaustive search often impractical impossible there such problem with largest primes because can prove that they don exist therefore generally accepted that must assume things not exist unless have evidence that they even theists follow this rule most the time they don believe unicorns even though they can conclusively prove that unicorns exist anywhere assume that god exists make assumption which probably cannot tested cannot make exhaustive search everywhere god might prove that doesn exist anywhere the sceptical atheist assumes default that god does not exist since that assumption can test those who profess strong atheism usually not claim that sort god exists instead they generally restrict their claims cover varieties god described followers various religions whilst may impossible prove conclusively that god exists may possible prove that say god described particular religious book does not exist may even possible prove that god described any present day religion exists practice believing that god described any religion exists very close believing that god exists however sufficiently different that counter arguments based the impossibility disproving every kind god are not really applicable but what god essentially non detectable god interacts with our universe any way the effects his interaction must measurable hence his interaction with our universe must detectable god essentially non detectable must therefore the case that does not interact with our universe any way many atheists would argue that god does not interact with our universe all importance whether exists not the bible believed god was easily detectable the israelites surely should still detectable today note that not demanding that god interact scientifically verifiable physical way must surely possible perceive some effect caused his presence though otherwise how can distinguish him from all the other things that don exist you may think there philosophical justification for atheism but isn still religious belief one the most common pastimes philosophical discussion the redefinition game the cynical view this game follows person begins making contentious statement when person points out that can true person gradually defines the words used the statement until arrives something person prepared accept then records the statement along with the fact that person has agreed and continues eventually uses the statement agreed fact but uses his original definitions all the words rather than the obscure redefinitions originally needed get agree rather than seen apparently inconsistent will tend play along the point this digression that the answer the question isn atheism religious belief depends crucially upon what meant religious religion generally characterized belief superhuman controlling power especially some sort god and faith and worship worth pointing out passing that some varieties buddhism are not religion according such definition atheism certainly not belief any sort superhuman power nor categorized worship any meaningful sense widening the definition religious encompass atheism tends result many other aspects human behaviour suddenly becoming classed religious well such science politics and watching not religion but surely belief atheism science still just act faith like religion firstly not entirely clear that sceptical atheism something one actually believes secondly necessary adopt number core beliefs assumptions make some sort sense out the sensory data experience most atheists try adopt few core beliefs possible and even those are subject questioning experience throws them into doubt science has number core assumptions for example generally assumed that the laws physics are the same for all observers these are the sort core assumptions atheists make such basic ideas are called acts faith then almost everything know must said based acts faith and the term loses its meaning faith more often used refer complete certain belief something according such definition atheism and science are certainly not acts faith course individual atheists scientists can dogmatic religious followers when claiming that something certain this not general tendency however there are many atheists who would reluctant state with certainty that the universe exists faith also used refer belief without supporting evidence proof sceptical atheism certainly doesn fit that definition sceptical atheism has beliefs strong atheism closer but still doesn really match even the most dogmatic atheist will tend refer experimental data the lack when asserting that god does not exist atheism not religious surely anti religious unfortunate human tendency label everyone either for against friend enemy the truth not clear cut atheism the position that runs logically counter theism that sense can said anti religion however when religious believers speak atheists being anti religious they usually mean that the atheists have some sort antipathy hatred towards theists this categorization atheists hostile towards religion quite unfair atheist attitudes towards theists fact cover broad spectrum most atheists take live and let live attitude unless questioned they will not usually mention their atheism except perhaps close friends course this may part because atheism not socially acceptable many countries few atheists are quite anti religious and may even try convert others when possible historically such anti religious atheists have made little impact society outside the eastern bloc countries digress slightly the soviet union was originally dedicated separation church and state just like the usa soviet citizens were legally free worship they wished the institution state atheism came about when stalin took control the soviet union and tried destroy the churches order gain complete power over the population some atheists are quite vocal about their beliefs but only where they see religion encroaching matters which are not its business for example the government the usa such individuals are usually concerned that church and state should remain separate but you don allow religion have say the running the state surely that the same state atheism the principle the separation church and state that the state shall not legislate concerning matters religious belief particular means not only that the state cannot promote one religion the expense another but also that cannot promote any belief which religious nature religions can still have say discussion purely secular matters for example religious believers have historically been responsible for encouraging many political reforms even today many organizations campaigning for increase spending foreign aid are founded religious campaigns long they campaign concerning secular matters and long they not discriminate religious grounds most atheists are quite happy see them have their say what about prayer schools there god why you care people pray because people who pray are voters and lawmakers and tend things that those who don pray can just ignore also christian prayer schools intimidating non christians even they are told that they need not join the diversity religious and non religious belief means that impossible formulate meaningful prayer that will acceptable all those present any public event also non prayers tend have friends and family who pray reasonable care about friends and family wasting their time even without other motives you mentioned christians who campaign for increased foreign aid what about atheists why aren there any atheist charities hospitals don atheists object the religious charities there are many charities without religious purpose that atheists can contribute some atheists contribute religious charities well for the sake the practical good they some atheists even voluntary work for charities founded theistic basis most atheists seem feel that atheism isn worth shouting about connection with charity them atheism just simple obvious everyday matter and charity many feel that somewhat cheap not say self righteous use simple charity excuse plug particular set religious beliefs weak atheists building hospital say not believe god rather strange idea rather like holding party say today not birthday why the fuss atheism rarely evangelical you said atheism isn anti religious but perhaps backlash against one upbringing way rebelling perhaps for some but many people have parents who not attempt force any religious atheist ideas upon them and many those people choose call themselves atheists also doubtless the case that some religious people chose religion backlash against atheist upbringing way being different the other hand many people choose religion way conforming the expectations others the whole can conclude much about whether atheism religion are backlash conformism although general people have tendency along with group rather than act think independently how atheists differ from religious people they don believe god that all there atheists may listen heavy metal backwards even they may prefer verdi requiem even they know the words they may wear hawaiian shirts they may dress all black they may even wear orange robes many buddhists lack belief any sort god some atheists even carry copy the bible around for arguing against course whoever you are the chances are you have met several atheists without realising atheists are usually unexceptional behaviour and appearance unexceptional but aren atheists less moral than religious people that depends you define morality obedience god then course atheists are less moral they don obey any god but usually when one talks morality one talks what acceptable right and unacceptable wrong behaviour within society humans are social animals and maximally successful they must operate with each other this good enough reason discourage most atheists from anti social immoral behaviour purely for the purposes self preservation many atheists behave moral compassionate way simply because they feel natural tendency empathize with other humans why they care what happens others they don know they simply are that way naturally there are some people who behave immorally and try use atheism justify their actions however there are equally many people who behave immorally and then try use religious beliefs justify their actions for example here trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance jesus christ came into the world save sinners but for that very reason was shown mercy that jesus christ might display his unlimited patience example for those who would believe him and receive eternal life now the king eternal immortal invisible the only god honor and glory forever and ever the above quote from statement made the court february jeffrey dahmer the notorious cannibal serial killer milwaukee wisconsin seems that for every atheist mass murderer there religious mass murderer but what more trivial morality survey conducted the roper organization found that behavior deteriorated after born again experiences while only respondents said they had driven intoxicated before being born again had done after conversion similarly had used illegal drugs before conversion after two percent admitted engaging illicit sex before salvation after freethought today september seems that best religion does not have monopoly moral behaviour there such thing atheist morality you mean there such thing morality for atheists then the answer yes explained above many atheists have ideas about morality which are least strong those held religious people you mean does atheism have characteristic moral code then the answer atheism itself does not imply anything much about how person will behave most atheists follow many the same moral rules theists but for different reasons atheists view morality something created humans according the way humans feel the world ought work rather than seeing set rules decreed supernatural being then aren atheists just theists who are denying god study the freedom from religion foundation found that over the atheists who responded became atheists because religion did not work for them they had found that religious beliefs were fundamentally incompatible with what they observed around them atheists are not unbelievers through ignorance denial they are unbelievers through choice the vast majority them have spent time studying one more religions sometimes very great depth they have made careful and considered decision reject religious beliefs this decision may course inevitable consequence that individual personality for naturally sceptical person the choice atheism often the only one that makes sense and hence the only choice that person can honestly make but don atheists want believe god atheists live their lives though there nobody watching over them many them have desire watched over matter how good natured the big brother figure might some atheists would like able believe god but what should one believe things merely because one wants them true the risks such approach should obvious atheists often decide that wanting believe something not enough there must evidence for the belief but course atheists see evidence for the existence god they are unwilling their souls see many not most atheists were previously religious has been explained above the vast majority have seriously considered the possibility that god exists many atheists have spent time prayer trying reach god course true that some atheists lack open mind but assuming that all atheists are biased and insincere offensive and closed minded comments such course god there you just aren looking properly are likely viewed patronizing certainly you wish engage philosophical debate with atheists vital that you give them the benefit the doubt and assume that they are being sincere they say that they have searched for god you are not willing believe that they are basically telling the truth debate futile isn the whole life completely pointless atheist many atheists live purposeful life they decide what they think gives meaning life and they pursue those goals they try make their lives count not wishing for eternal life but having influence other people who will live for example atheist may dedicate his life political reform the hope leaving his mark history natural human tendency look for meaning purpose random events however means obvious that life the sort thing that has meaning put another way not everything which looks like question actually sensible thing ask some atheists believe that asking what the meaning life silly asking what the meaning cup coffee they believe that life has purpose meaning just how atheists find comfort time danger there are many ways obtaining comfort from family friends even pets less spiritual level from food drink that may sound rather empty and vulnerable way face danger but what should individuals believe things because they are comforting should they face reality matter how harsh might the end decision for the individual concerned most atheists are unable believe something they would not otherwise believe merely because makes them feel comfortable they put truth before comfort and consider that searching for truth sometimes makes them feel unhappy that just hard luck don atheists worry that they might suddenly shown wrong the short answer you many atheists have been atheists for years they have encountered many arguments and much supposed evidence for the existence god but they have found all invalid inconclusive thousands years religious belief haven resulted any good proof the existence god atheists therefore tend feel that they are unlikely proved wrong the immediate future and they stop worrying about why should theists question their beliefs don the same arguments apply because the beliefs being questioned are not similar weak atheism the sceptical default position take asserts nothing strong atheism negative belief theism very strong positive belief atheists sometimes also argue that theists should question their beliefs because the very real harm they can cause not just the believers but everyone else what sort harm religion represents huge financial and work burden mankind not just matter religious believers wasting their money church buildings think all the time and effort spent building churches praying and imagine how that effort could better spent many theists believe miracle healing there have been plenty instances ill people being healed priest ceasing take the medicines prescribed them doctors and dying result some theists have died because they have refused blood transfusions religious grounds arguable that the catholic church opposition birth control and condoms particular increasing the problem overpopulation many third world countries and contributing the spread aids world wide religious believers have been known murder their children rather than allow their children become atheists marry someone different religion those weren real believers they just claimed believers some sort excuse what makes real believer there are many one true religions hard tell look christianity there are many competing groups all convinced that they are the only true christians sometimes they even fight and kill each other how atheist supposed decide who real christian and who isn when even the major christian churches like the catholic church and the church england can decide amongst themselves the end most atheists take pragmatic view and decide that anyone who calls himself christian and uses christian belief dogma justify his actions should considered christian maybe some those christians are just perverting christian teaching for their own ends but surely the bible can readily used support christian acts can much moral code the bible the word god why couldn have made less easy misinterpret and how you know that your beliefs aren perversion what your god intended there single unambiguous interpretation the bible then why should atheist take one interpretation over another just your say sorry but someone claims that believes jesus and that murdered others because jesus and the bible told him must call him christian obviously those extreme sorts beliefs should questioned but since nobody has ever proved that god does not exist must very unlikely that more basic religious beliefs shared all faiths are nonsense that does not hold because was pointed out the start this dialogue positive assertions concerning the existence entities are inherently much harder disprove than negative ones nobody has ever proved that unicorns don exist but that doesn make unlikely that they are myths therefore much more valid hold negative assertion default than hold positive assertion default course weak atheists would argue that asserting nothing better still well atheism great why are there many theists unfortunately the popularity belief has little with how correct whether works consider how many people believe astrology graphology and other pseudo sciences many atheists feel that simply human weakness want believe gods certainly many primitive human societies religion allows the people deal with phenomena that they not adequately understand course there more religion than that the industrialized world find people believing religious explanations phenomena even when there are perfectly adequate natural explanations religion may have started means attempting explain the world but nowadays serves other purposes well but many cultures have developed religions surely that must say something not really most religions are only superficially similar for example worth remembering that religions such buddhism and taoism lack any sort concept god the christian sense course most religions are quick denounce competing religions rather odd use one religion try and justify another what about all the famous scientists and philosophers who have concluded that god exists for every scientist philosopher who believes god there one who does not besides has already been pointed out the truth belief not determined how many people believe also important realize that atheists not view famous scientists philosophers the same way that theists view their religious leaders famous scientist only human she may expert some fields but when she talks about other matters her words carry special weight many respected scientists have made themselves look foolish speaking subjects which lie outside their fields expertise are you really saying that widespread belief religion indicates nothing not entirely certainly indicates that the religion question has properties which have helped spread far the theory memetics talks memes sets ideas which can propagate themselves between human minds analogy with genes some atheists view religions sets particularly successful parasitic memes which spread encouraging their hosts convert others some memes avoid destruction discouraging believers from questioning doctrine using peer pressure keep one time believers from admitting that they were mistaken some religious memes even encourage their hosts destroy hosts controlled other memes course the memetic view there particular virtue associated with successful propagation meme religion not good thing because the number people who believe any more than disease good thing because the number people who have caught even religion not entirely true least puts across important messages what are the fundamental messages atheism there are many important ideas atheists promote the following are just few them don surprised see ideas which are also present some religions there more moral behaviour than mindlessly following rules especially sceptical positive claims you want your life have some sort meaning you find search for what true even makes you uncomfortable make the most your life probably the only one you have good relying some external power change you you must change yourself just because something popular doesn mean good you must assume something assume something easy test don believe things just because you want them true and finally and most importantly all beliefs should open question thanks for taking the time read this article mathew for information about pgp send mail pgpinfo mantis
alt.atheism	gospel dating article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes well john has quite different not necessarily more elaborated theology there some evidence that must have known luke and that the content was known him but not canonized form this new argument could you elaborate little the argument goes follows oid quotes appear john but not the almost codified way they were matthew luke however they are considered similar enough point knowledge such and not entirely different source assuming that knew luke would obviously put him after luke and would give evidence for the latter assumption don think this follows you take the most traditional attributions then luke might have known john but john elder figure either case talking spans time here which are well within the range lifetimes are talking date texts here not the age the authors the usual explanation for the time order mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages says matthew has read the text mark and luke that matthew and probably that mark assumed that john knew the content luke text the evidence for that not overwhelming admittedly earlier manuscripts john have been discovered interesting where and which how are they dated how old are they unfortunately haven got the info hand was think the late early and was possibly old when they are from about why they shed doubt the order putting john after the rest the three don see your point exactly what james felder said they had first hand knowledge the events and obvious that least two them used older texts the base their account and even the association luke paul mark peter are not generally accepted well genuine letter peter would close enough wouldn sure original together with card sender and receiver would fine what that supposed say missing something and don think one step removed source that bad luke and mark and matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then really cannot believe the sort big transformation from jesus gospel that some people posit news reports one generally gets better information than this and john diciple then there nothing more said that john was disciple not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used counterargument the argument that john was disciple relies the claim the gospel john itself there any other evidence for one step and one generation removed bad even our times compare that reports similar events our century almost illiterate societies not even speak off that believers are not necessarily the best sources also obvious that mark has been edited how old are the oldest manuscripts knowledge which can antiquated the oldest quite after any these estimates and not even complete the only clear editing problem the ending and basically hopeless mess the oldest versions give strong sense incompleteness the point where the shortest versions seem break off midsentence the most obvious solution that some point part the text was lost the material from verse pretty clearly later and seems represent synopsys the end luke other words one does not know what the original mark did look like and arguments based mark are pretty weak but how that connected redating john benedikt
alt.atheism	university violating separation church state dmn kepler unh edu until kings become philosophers philosophers become kings writes recently ras have been ordered and none have resisted cared about apparently post religious flyer entitled the soul scroll thoughts religion spirituality and matters the soul the inside bathroom stall doors school the university new hampshire some sort newsletter assembled hall director somewhere campus poses question about spirituality each issue and solicits responses included the next issue all pretty vague assume put out christian but they very careful not mention jesus the bible heard someone defend saying well doesn support any one religion what this state university and strong supporter the separation church and state was enraged what can about this sounds like just screaming out for parody give copy your friendly neighbourhood subgenius preacher with luck run through the mental mincer and hand you back outrageously offensive and gut bustingly funny parody you can paste over the originals can see now the stool scroll thoughts religion spirituality and matters the colon you can use this text wipe mathew
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr harder ccr ida org harder ccr ida org bob mcgwier writes however hate economic terrorism and political correctness worse than hate this policy more effective approach stop donating any organizating that directly indirectly supports gay rights issues until they end the boycott funding scouts can somebody reconcile the apparent contradiction between and rob strom strom watson ibm com ibm research saw mill river road box yorktown heights
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes didn you say lucifer was created with perfect nature yes define perfect then think you are playing the usual game here make sweeping statements like omni holy perfect and don note that they mean exactly what they say and that says that you must not use this terms when leads contradictions not trying play games here but understand how might seem that way especially when one coming from completely different point view such atheism take your foot out your mouth wondered about that already when was catholic christian the fact that the contradiction unresolvable one the reasons why atheist believe believed similar sentences for long time but that shows the power religion and not anything about its claims now god could have prevented lucifer fall taking away his ability choose between moral alternatives worship god worship himself but that would mean that god was error have make lucifer any being with free will the first place exactly god allows evil evil there ever was one now that opinion best premise but from point view not premise which necessary true specifically that evil allow evil occur follows from definition evil ordinarily used letting evil happen allowing evil take place this place even causing evil another evil but could you give definition free will especially the presence omniscient being will self determination other words god created conscious beings who have the ability choose between moral choices independently god all will therefore free will the omniscient attribute god will know what the creatures will even before the omnipotent has created them there choice left all known the course events fixed not even for the omniscient itself extend argument james tims god omniscient then clearly creating beings with free moral choice greater good than the emergence ungodliness evil sin since created them knowing the outcome advance why the greater good allow evil with the knowledge that will happen why not make unipolar system with the possibility doing good not doing good but that does not necessarily imply doing evil logically possible but your god has not done not know that such logically possible god restrains free being choice choose evil and simply not good then can said that the being truly has free moral choice and good defined loving and obeying god and avoiding those behaviors which god prohibits then how can you say that one who not good not evil well like said not sure that doing not good without doing evil logically possible and when not omnipotent how can have free will you have said something about choices and the scenario gives them therefore have what you define free will imagine the following can good other beings but cannot harm them easily implemented making everyone appreciate being the object good deeds but don make them long for them they can not feel the absence good evil but whose case arguing conceivable the omnipotent can would not omnipotent you want logically consistent well you have give the pet idea omnipotent first deletion perhaps weak way were just speculating about the ubiquitous pink unicorns then there would basis for such speculation but this idea god didn just fall out the blue while reading science fiction fantasy know that some will disagree the bible describes god who omniscient and nevertheless created beings with free moral choice from which the definitional logic follows but that not all there there seems least mind certain amount evidence which indicates that god exists and that the biblical description him may fair one that evidence which bolsters the argument view that the bible describes omniscient and omnipotent god destroys the credibility the bible nothing less and lot people would interested evidence for god unfortunately there can any with these definitions benedikt
alt.atheism	political atheists arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes the motto originated the star spangled banner tell that this has something with atheists the motto coins originated mccarthyite smear which equated atheism with communism and called both unamerican didn the motto has been various coins since the civil war was just required all currency the keith
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes when they are victimized they are muslims when they victimize others they are not true muslims muslims all quite annoying don understand the point this petty sarcasm basic principle islam that one born muslim one says testify that there god but god and mohammad prophet god that long one does not explicitly reject islam word then one must considered muslim all muslims the phenomenon you attempting make into general rule psychology direct odds with basic islamic principles you want attack islam you could better than than argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts was criticism islam for change was criticism the arguments used namely whenever people you identify muslims are the victims the attacks others they are used argument for the bad situation muslims but whenever deeds muslim that victimize others are named they not count argument because what these people did was not done true muslims mention made how muslims are the cause bad situation another party double standards benedikt
alt.atheism	political atheists reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and you admit here you finished with recursive definition murder objectively immoral but eactly what murder and what not itself requires appeal morality yes now you have switch targets little but only little now you are asking what the goal what you mean goal are you suggesting that there some objective goal out there somewhere and form our morals achieve well for example the goal natural morality the survival and propogation the species another example moral system presented within the declaration independence which states that should guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit happiness you see have moral system must define the purpose the system that shall moral unto what end murder certainly violation the golden rule and thought had defined murder intentional killing non murderer against his will and you responded this asking whether not the execution innocent person under our system capital punishment was murder not fail see what this has with anything never claimed that our system morality was objective one thought that was your very first claim that there was some kind objective morality and that example that was that murder wrong you don want claim that any more that fine well murder violates the golen rule which certainly pillar most every moral system however not assuming that our current system and the manner its implementation are objectively moral think that very good approximation but can perfect and the way you don seem understand the difference between arbitrary and objective keith schneider defines murder this that and the other that arbitrary jon livesey may still say well according personal system morality all killing humans against their will murder and wrong and what the legal definition murder may the usa kuweit saudi arabia the prc may matters not whit well objective would assume system based clear and fundamental concepts while arbitary implies clear line reasoning keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes then why people keep asking the same questions over and over because you rarely ever answer them nope answered each question posed and most were answered multiple times keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes how long does the motto have stay around before becomes the default where the cutoff point don know where the exact cutoff but least after few years and surely after years why does the notion default not take into account changes population makeup specifically which changes are you talking about are you arguing that the motto interpreted offensive larger portion the population now than years ago keith
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes borrow from philosophy you don truly understand the color red until you have seen not true even you have experienced the color red you still might have different interpretation but you wouldn know what red was and you certainly couldn judge subjectively and objectivity not applicable since you are wanting discuss the merits red keith
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes but you were discuss the merits racism its psycholgical benefits you would well have experienced personally when you speak experiencing religion you mean someone should believe religion that right and this pretty impossible right would ideal could believe for while just try out religion and only then determine which course thought suits best but again this not possible not that religion warrants belief but the belief carries with some psychological benefits there are also some psychological burdens too when you speak experiencing racism you mean that someone should believe racism that they should have racist things done them for parallelism the former must what you meant but seems odd usage the phrase well there were some psychological other benefits gained from racism they could only fully understood judged persons actually believing racism course the parallel happens poor one but you originated keith
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes but you don know that capital punishment wrong isn the same shooting better analogy would that you continue drive your car realizing that sooner later someone going killed automobile accident you know people get killed result driving yet you continue anyway you not know that you will the one the killing not sure drive car had sufficient evidence conclude that would necessarily kill someone during lifetime yes and everyone thinks you one thinks that going cause involved fatal accident but the likelihood surprisingly high just because you are the man the firing squad whose gun shooting blanks does not mean that you are less guilty don know about jon but say all taking human life murder and say murder wrong all but one situation when the only action that will prevent another murder either myself another you mean that killing wrong all but one situtation and you should note that that situation will never occur there are always other options thank killing why don you just say that all killing wrong this basically what you are saying getting bit tired your probabilistic arguments are you attempting condescending that the system usually works pretty well small consolation the poor innocent bastard getting the lethal injection your personal value human life based solely statistical approach you sound like unswerving adherent the needs the many outweighing the needs the few fuck the few but most people have found the risk acceptable you are probably much more likely die plane crash even using electric blender than you are executed innocent personally think that the risk acceptable but ideal moral system such risk acceptable acceptable the fudge factor necessary such approximation the ideal keith
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes think that about people approve the death penalty even realizing all its shortcomings doesn this make reasonable are you the sole judge reasonability aside from revenge what merits you find capital punishment are talking about the majority the people that support anyway think that revenge fairness why most people are favor the punishment murderer going punished people that think that should get what deserves most people wouldn think would fair for the murderer live while his victim died revenge petty and pathetic perhaps you think that petty and pathetic but your views are the minority have local televised hot topic talk show that very recently did segment capital punishment each and every advocate the use this portion our system jurisprudence cited the main reason for supporting that bastard deserved true human compassion forgiveness and sympathy where are required have compassion forgiveness and sympathy someone wrongs will take great lengths make sure that his advantage removed similar situation forced upon him someone kills another then can apply the golden rule and kill this person turn not our entire moral system based such concept are you stating that human life sacred somehow and that should never violated this would sound like some sort religious view mean how reasonable imprisonment really when you think about sure the person could released found innocent but you still can undo the imiprisonment that was served perhaps shouldn imprision people could watch them closely instead the cost would probably similar especially just implanted some sort electronic device would you rather alive prison dead the chair once criminal has committed murder his desires are irrelevant and you still have not answered question you are concerned about the death penalty due the possibility the execution innocent then why isn this same concern shared with imprisonment shouldn your logic administer minimum punishment possible avoid violating the liberty happiness innocent person keith
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes kill this person innocent person convicted murder then murder would committed but would not the murderer least wouldn reasonably considered murderer with reasonable being introduced fudge factor necessary account for the inability totally objective due lack absolutely true information society collective decides carry the burden executing citizens then also carries the blame for their innocent blood each and every voter who casts ballot favor capital punishment part guilty the murder each and every innocent victim the system why are only those people favor the system blame society accepts such system then each member society blame when innocent person gets executed those that are not favor should work convince others and most members our society have accepted the blame they considered the risk acceptable similarly every person who drives must accept the blame for fatal traffic accidents this something that surely going happen when many people are driving all question what risk acceptable much more likely that innocent person will killed driving than that one will executed keith
alt.atheism	don more innocents die without the death penalty article psilink com psilink com james tims writes maintaining classes and even prison seems place more innocent people higher risk unjust death than would the state executed classes and with occasional error answer from the position that would indeed place these people prison for life that depends not only their predisposition towards murder but also their success rate escape and therefore their ability commit the same crimes again other words lifetime imprisonment doesn work perhaps not because not executing these people but because not being careful enough about how lock them bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes propose that these two trends greater level general depression society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being prime cause the former cannot provide any evidence beyond this this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable and request that people ponder upon damn right you can provide any evidence for rarely are any widespread social phenomenon reducible such simple premise they were psychology would hard science with roughly the same mathematical soundness physics your premise may well right much more likely however that reflects your socialization and religious background well your need validate your religious beliefs were pretend have all the answers and don would say that the xenophobia guilt and intolerance brought about adherence fundamentalist religions play just large role depressing the members our society your mileage obviously varies bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	political atheists article apr blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes would say that one innocent person killed some sense bad many certainly feel that way when punish someone for single murder now reform system reducing the number deaths one produce system say should not back system even though doing would introduce only single extra death bob seems think that one bad many sense somewhat stronger than the one you indicate yes argument that the sole purpose the death penalty kill people that primary and would argue only purpose continue kill people practice that has almost utility especially when you know you will killing innocents unconscionable the very least the existence the prison system and our transportation system are based their merits society not their detriments are willing accept few lost innocent lives because there overwhelming benefit the continued existence these systems one has stretch the evidence and the arguments make the same claim for capital punishment just case wasn clear again maintain capital punsihment system that kills innocent people and provides with net positive gain why were you pin corner and ask would have respond that don belief the state should have the right take life all but won open that debate seems others are tiring this thread anyway bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	there must creator maybe article drporter suvm syr edu drporter suvm syr edu brad porter writes science wonderful answering most our questions not the type question scientific findings very often but personally find the theory evolution unfathomable could humans highly evolved complex organism that thinks learns and develops truly organism that resulted from random genetic mutations and natural selection stuff deleted computers are excellent example evolution without creator did not create computers did not create the sand that goes into the silicon that goes into the integrated circuits that into processor board took these things and put them together interesting way just like plants create oxygen using light through photosynthesis much bigger leap talk about something that created everything from nothing find unfathomable resort believing creator when much simpler alternative exists simply are incapable understanding our beginnings there even were beginnings all and that with the present keeps perfectly busy jim halat
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article rpi edu johnsd jec its rpi edu dan johnson writes article maine maine edu maine maine edu writes dan johnson you don know but take this hand anyway bravo for beautiful simply beautiful jim halat
alt.atheism	speculations article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu writes this god truly omnipotent you folks like claim then why can terminate eternity for the same reason can flibble glop ork groink the thing you are demanding that must able has meaning its own terms this classic example excessive faith reason the fact that have trouble talking about something doesn imply that impossible simply implies that hard talk about there very good chance that god can flibble glop ork groink charlie wingate can flibble glop ork groink and isn even god doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes much though might fun debate capital punishment itself this probably the wrong group for the only relevance here that you don seem able tell what capital punishment actually and when murder that when you tell murder wrong you are using term you have not yet defined well said that when innocent person has been executed this objectively murder however who blame another question seems that the entire society that sanctions any sorts executions realizing the risks blame there probability killing innocent person shooting random into the air and there probability killing innocent person when the state administers system capital punishment when you either you know that they actions you are taking will sooner later result the killing innocent person yes but there also probablity that you will kill someone doing any raondom activity presumably you had not isolated yourself totally from the rest society because this and driving will kill people will airlines but people continue both driving and flying are not punishments inflicted unwilling prisoners courts they are risks that take upon ourselves willingly and argue that our law system similar risk perhaps innocent person will punished someday but work prevent this fact many criminals free result our trying prevent punishment innocents our own driving kills someone else then sure there moral issue know least one person who was involved fatal accident and they felt vey guilty afterwards but such accidents are totally expected given the numner vehicals the road again the blame society not this what you said you were saying that there were such false witness that resulted innocent person being convicted and killed would still the fault the state since did the actual killing just commented that the state does the killing does not depend there being false witnesses how could the state does the killing even the case sincere mistakes yes but the state not fault such case the state can only much prevent false witnesses possible what are you trying say that capital punishment always murder because the possibilty human error invalidating the system saying capital punishment murder period not because this that and the other but because involves taking human life that definition murder make appeals dictionaries objective morals okay this what you call murder but the question whether not all such murders are wrong are you saying that all taking human life wrong matter what the circumstances society decide murder someone then should say that and lists our reasons for doing and live with the moral consequences should not play word games and pretend that murder isn murder and that opinion about how society ought run but this basically how works society accepts the risk that innocent person will murdered execution and every member society shares this blame and most people definitions murder include some sort malicious intent which not involved execution but were trying discuss objective moral system least its possibilty what ramifications does your personal system have objective one were not discussing objective moral system was showing you that you didn have one because for one thing you were incapable defining the terms for example murder murder violates the golden rule executions not because allowing all society implicitly accepts the consequences matter who the innocent victim not talking about reading minds are just talking about knowing the truth yes can never absolutely certain that have the truth but the court systems work principle knowing the truth beyond reasonable doubt sorry but you simply are not quoting yourself accurately here what you said and since are looking totally objectively this case then know what people are thinking when they are voting execute the person not the intent malicious and unfair then the execution would murder what you are doing now slide into another claim which quite different the jury being persuaded beyond serious doubt not the same knowing what their minds beyond serious doubt reading the minds the jury would certainly tell whether not conviction was moral not but objective system only the absolute truth matters and the jury system one method approximate such truth that twelve members must convinced truth moreover jury which comes from sufficiently prejudiced background may allow itself persuaded beyond serious doubt evidence that you and would laugh but then read the minds these people would know that the conviction was unfair but would perfectly fair could read minds assume that would fair knew the absolute truth why much less fair your opinion only have good approximation the absolute truth not question fairness your claim which have quoted above claim about whether can know was fair able distinguish capital punishnment from murder yes while could objectively determine the difference knew all possible information can always determine the difference our flawed system think that our system almost good possible but still isn objectively perfect you see doesn matter know fair not objectively either fair not now there huge difference can read minds can know and cannot read minds can know nothing the difference not degree fairness but what can know but what know has effect objective system think possible produce fairly objective system are clear which goals supposed promote not going waste time trying devise system that pretty sure does not exist why are you sure simply want people confront reality reality remember why your reality important this case the reality that ideal theories apart can never know even after the fact about the fairness the justice system for every innocent person released from death row there may have been dozen innocent people executed hundred none all simply don know but can assume that the system fairly decent least most likely and you realize that the correctness our system says nothing about totally ideal and objective system now what are going the one hand can pretend that have ideal theory and that can know things can never know and the justie system fair and that can wave magic wand and make certain types killing not murder and our way well can have ideal system but the working system can not ideal can only hope create system that close approximation the ideal system possible the other hand can recognize that all justice has small hope probability punishing the innocent and that the end bear moral responsibility even for the probabilistic consequences the systems set and then say well here murdering again maybe some will even say gee wonder all this strictly necessary yes all bear the responsibility most people seem willing this think that the second preferable that requires people face the moral consequences what society instead sheltering ourselves from them magic ceremonies and word games must realize the consequences all our actions why you keep separating the justice system from the pack and lest forget also don think have objective moral system and believe only have take that idea seriously when someone presents evidence don think our country has objective system but think such objective system can exist theory without omniscience objective system not possible practice keith
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now along comes keith schneider and says here objective moral system and then start ask him about the definitions that this objective system depends and predictably the whole thing falls apart only falls apart you attempt apply this doesn mean that objective system can exist just means that one cannot implemented keith
alt.atheism	university violating separation church state article kepler unh edu dmn kepler unh edu until kings become philosophers philosophers become kings writes recently ras have been ordered and none have resisted cared about apparently post religious flyer entitled the soul scroll thoughts religion spirituality and matters the soul the inside bathroom stall doors school the university new hampshire some sort newsletter assembled hall director somewhere campus most post deleted please respond soon possible like these religious postings stop now thanks dana there easy way out post the flyers the stall doors but add the bottom nice large capitals emergency toilet paper robert mellish fog email mellish net irc hobnob and also the mrs joyful prize for rafia work
alt.atheism	usatoday family values article rzz unix portal com danb shell portal com dan babcock writes there was funny usatoday from american family association post few choice parts for your enjoyment all emphases the not adding anything all the typos are mine dan article deleted found the same add our local sunday newspaper the add was placed the cartoon section the perfect place for
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes claim that person that committs crime doesn believe god for the moment that the crime committed least whether they are originally believers not believe good your statistics indicate people that have declared atheism and doubtless when atheist does act charity they temporarily become baptist jon
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes propose that these two trends greater level general depression society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being prime cause the former cannot provide any evidence beyond this this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable and request that people ponder upon pondered for all ten seconds when realised that since don have any reliable statistics for sexual promiscuity and since the whole issue depression isn all well defined for earlier centuries you are probably talking crap course you could pull mozumder and say that people who are having sex outside marriage are defined depressed can say ever noticed myself jon
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr cbnewsl att com stank cbnewsl att com stan krieger writes now can please use rec scouting for the purpose for which was established clearly netnews voters decided that did not want provide scouting newsgroup give fringe groups forum for their anti societal political views this the only thing will comment from stan this time part this forum call rec scouting for policy discussions and related topics this policy discussion and involves related topics this not fringe group discussion obviously engenders strong feelings from all sides the issues hand wether particular view anti societal not your opinion and yours alone don try make seem otherwise you not wish engage this discussion use kill file you wish continue this discussion please knowing full well the implications that apply know for myself that plan continuing with the discussion when have the wish have input for one tired people trying say that this not matter significant for this group and quite especially for those who feel the impact more closely dominick zurlo the world www oyster why eagle scout allergic mollusks blacklisted
alt.atheism	political atheists mathew mathew mantis writes for rape surely there the burden guilt solely the rapist not you are thrown into cage with tiger and get mauled you blame the tiger keith
alt.atheism	political atheists mathew mathew mantis writes perhaps shouldn imprision people could watch them closely instead the cost would probably similar especially just implanted some sort electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry don follow your reasoning you are proposing punish people before they commit crime what justification you have for this keith
alt.atheism	enviroleague new alternative scouting for those unacceptable bsa for reasons religious sexual preference from boyd critz iii compuserve com subject enviroleague birth announcement march from earth forum compuserve information service formal announcement enviroleague new youth movement enviroleague was recently born according its founder boyd critz iii cis peoria illinois enviroleague exists for the education youth both male and female matters concerning their values related and responsibility for our environment incorporated illinois not for profit corporation its articles and initial applications for service mark have now been filed according critz its draft bylaws contain the following statement mission and objectives mission the mission enviroleague and its adult members foster and implement the improved education young people the need conduct their lives stewards the earth leave the earth better condition than they found and otherwise act responsible moral and ethical users their environment pursue the accomplishment this mission enviroleague shall seek serve catalyst focusing common cause the separate efforts all groups desiring the preservation improvement and responsible use the environment which must all live objectives pursuit the mission enviroleague its primary objectives shall establish movement involving many environmentally concerned organizations possible said movement having its primary focus the education and participatory involvement young people appropriate areas environmental concern develop and provide such organizations and their branches full complement program materials for their use including suitable uniforms insignia and other badges written ideas syllabi and information literature and other items shall seem appropriate and desirable serve clearing house for the exchange program ideas materials and information among said organizations and assist environmentally concerned organizations recruit and train the necessary adult leadership for their youth programs enviroleague will operate through three program divisions serving youth the elementary middle and high school grades respectively service shall through formation enviroleague teams either enviroleague itself environmentally conscious organizations their local branches wishing charter use programs developed enviroleague enviroleague develops will controlled the actual adult leaders each local team and will have nationally imposed obstacles membership adult leadership status not based upon relevant improper conduct organizations accepting charter may however impose certain additional standards for their own use the program material should such organizations enviroleague will commit itself forming soon possible new nearby teams having such restrictions particularly youth membership enviroleague will operate the principle that youth will have much contribute developing its programs thus the top youth leaders its teams for middle and high school youth may become involved governing any local administrative groups and those for its high school youth may involved similar functions the national level program materials are development this time copies the draft portions the mentor manual manual for adult leadership will the earth forum library these files will updated development takes place compuserve particularly proud that enviroleague founder chose this electronic medium make the first public announcement its formation this announcement being made simultaneously both the outdoor and earth forums the electronic home enviroleague compuserve earth forum earth message and library areas both named enviroleague subsequently enviroleague initial governance council has held its first meeting boyd critz was elected the first enviroleague chief guardian equivalent chairman the board ceo can reached home case real need also mail can addressed enviroleague box peoria those interested starting enviroleague team might just establish contact receive diskette ibm dos ascii with initial information cdt rocket stratus com you believe that speak for company cdt vos stratus com write today for special investors packet
alt.atheism	idle questions for fellow atheists wonder how many atheists out there care speculate the face the world atheists were the majority rather than the minority group the population rather ridiculous question some ways know but newsreader down not getting any new postings for bit figure might well post something new myself also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor higher value their way thinking over the theistic way thinking the typical selfish argument would that both lines thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation one not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again measuring stick must drawn somewhere and cannot assign value system beliefs its core than the only other alternative apply its periphery how expresses its own selfishness idle thoughts adam adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes deleted over alt atheism tend recognise two categories atheism function format due mathew mantis think weak not believe gods strong believe not gods deleted strong atheist and must quibble with your assertion that the strong position requires faith believe that god commonly described theists exist this belief merely opinion formed the basis observation including certain amount introspection fully accept that could wrong and will swayed suitably convincing evidence thus while believe that gods exist this does not imply faith part that let first say that believe that gods exist fact different than not believing god gods will argue that your latter statement believe that gods exist does rest upon faith that you are making positive statement that gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying don know and therefore don believe them and don not believe then weak atheism once again not believe god different than saying believe that god does not exist still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith but first let say the following might have language problem here regards faith and existence christian maintain that god does not exist exist means have being space and time god does not have being god being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist eternal with this said feel rather pointless debate the called existence god and that not what doing here believe that god the source and ground being when you say that god does not exist also accept this statement but obviously mean two different things however what follows will use the phrase the existence god usual sense and this the sense that think you are using would like clarification upon what you mean the existence god also might differ upon what means have faith here what webster says faith allegiance duty person loyalty fidelity one promises sincerity intentions belief and trust and loyalty god belief the traditional doctrines religion firm belief something for which there proof complete trust something that believed esp with strong conviction esp system religious beliefs syn see belief one can never prove that god does does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this opinion based upon observation will have ask what observtions are you refering there are observations pro con that are valid here establishing positive belief all observations can only point you direction direction that might even predisposed predisposed mean for example people whoes partents believe god also tend actually draw conclusion about the existence non existence god requires leap and you have made this leap when you actively say believe that god does does not exist personally think that both statements are misguided arguing over the existence god precisely the wrong way find him and yes use him because personal god the only viable concept imo person wants use she ahead course god neither nor she but have choice but anthropomorphise you want explain myself further glad and please someone does not agree with even they violently disagree ones advantage start name calling person thinks misunderstood something the faqs they they think have not read them well enough just point out the error ways and correct the situation interested polite and well thought out discussion cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick department computer science tel university warwick fax coventry bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else there are definitely quite few horrible deaths the result both atheists and theists sure bobby can list quite few for the atheist side but fails recognize that the theists are equally proficient genocide perhaps since bit weak history somone here would like give list wars caused led theists can think few hitler claimed christian for example but more complete list would probably more effective showing bobby just how absurd his statement peace side note notice you always sign your posts peace perhaps you should take your own advice and leave the atheists peace with their beliefs bobby mozumder nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu lying ourselves more deeply ingrained than lying others
alt.atheism	dear theist west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes means the full quote michael crichton jurrasic park was something like the earth has existed quite contently for billions years have been here but for the blink eye and were gone tomorrow the earth would not miss remember this quote keep myself humble when thinking that have progressed far that are masters this planet cool quote the earth doesn need saving existed quite happily with out are the ones who need saving better watch the theists will jump you for that brian west this not sig file the earth have been this not sig file here but for the blink sig file eye were gone tomorrow posted west wam umd edu would not missed who doesn care who knows jurassic park diclaimer said this meant this nobody made nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu lying ourselves more deeply ingrained than lying others
alt.atheism	political atheists turn jump article innq gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and you admit here you finished with recursive definition murder objectively immoral but eactly what murder and what not itself requires appeal morality think you mean circular not recursive but that semantics recursiveness has problems just horribly inefficient just ask any assembly programmer yes now you have switch targets little but only little now you are asking what the goal what you mean goal are you suggesting that there some objective goal out there somewhere and form our morals achieve well for example the goal natural morality the survival and propogation the species another example moral system presented within the declaration independence which states that should guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit happiness you see have moral system must define the purpose the system that shall moral unto what end the oft quoted line that says people should guaranteed life liberty and the pursuit happiness inalienable rights complete lie and deception the very authors that line were the process proving liberty never free always purchased some cost almost always the cost another whos liberty more inalienable similarly for right life when one person must die save another even group others whos life more inalienable that leads into the classic question the value the death penalty especially for serial killers whos life and liberty more valuable the serial killer the victim according that beautiful line those two rights should completely inviolate that noone should able remove them this includes government admittedly the serial killer has restricted some people life and liberty but not his own life liberty inviolate also according the declaration independence murder certainly violation the golden rule and thought had defined murder intentional killing non murderer against his will oooh like that means that killing infant not murder because cannot against its will reason infant has will such similarly for people who are brain dead easier see coma etc also under current law accidental killing still murder how will you include that and you responded this asking whether not the execution innocent person under our system capital punishment was murder not fail see what this has with anything never claimed that our system morality was objective one thought that was your very first claim that there was some kind objective morality and that example that was that murder wrong you don want claim that any more that fine the only real golden rule life who has the gold makes the rules might makes right that survival now what wrong with that well murder violates the golen rule which certainly pillar most every moral system however not assuming that our current system and the manner its implementation are objectively moral think that very good approximation but can perfect you mean the golden rule stated yes almost every system implemented has used that reality sorry don deal much fiction reality and the way you don seem understand the difference between arbitrary and objective keith schneider defines murder this that and the other that arbitrary jon livesey may still say well according personal system morality all killing humans against their will murder and wrong and what the legal definition murder may the usa kuweit saudi arabia the prc may matters not whit welcome ozland what not arbitrary you can find some part society some societal rules morals etc that are not arbitrary please tell don think there are any well objective would assume system based clear and fundamental concepts while arbitary implies clear line reasoning keith sounds like euphemisms the difference seems that objective some reasoning that like while arbitrary some reasoning that don like don understand
alt.atheism	radical agnostic not the one and only jcopelan nyx edu wrote article bgsu edu andy bgsu edu pixie writes first post seen from the bug zoo bgsu there means that can possibly think prove beyond doubt that god does not exist but anyone has one all means tell what therefore lacking this ability absolute proof being atheist becomes act faith and itself and this cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need say more there also the question what meant atheist familiar example the importance the meaning the word follows the two statements following are consistent not believe that you are wearing lilac socks not believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks the two statements following are not consistent believe that you are wearing lilac socks believe that you are are not wearing lilac socks statements and require faith they make presumptions about the nature reality statements and require belief many atheists myself included take the following position not believe that there god not believe that there not god that harbor beliefs all there good evidence for god existing not some folks call this agnosticism does not suffer from blind faith all think don worry happy
alt.atheism	what maddi was created the image gaea therefore must the pinnacle creation she which creates she which births she which continues cut all the religious crap woman thanks and sexism that started the road atheism maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	the wrong and the right article trmetu bitnet trmetu bitnet writes turkish guy who had tried atheism satenism and buddism some instant hislife finally decided islambecause many facts which intend write here from point view you atheists are people who has dropped deep dark well and thinking the only reality the dusty walls the well but you had looked little bit upward you would see the blue skies you dsee truth but you close your eyes allah the only god and mohammed his mess ager now let generate some entropy means theology and thermodynamics hat your point view the problem the first kiss that the first spark which was generated for the formation the universe has formed tself you are bothering yourselves with the big bang but where the first spa please think bit think and return the only reality the universe isla this looks bit too much like bobby atheism false stuff are really going have through this again maybe the universe cyclical brendan dunn
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes and the even that argument doesn stand costs far more execute criminal this country than does feed clothe and shelter them for the remainder their natural life some people believe this fault our judicial system find one greatest virtues assume that you are talking about the appeals processes etc well should noted that people who are imprisoned for life will also tend appeal though not quite much the final hours anyway economics not very good reason either favor oppose the punishment keith
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article apr skyblu ccit arizona edu lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu james lippard writes article mar juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence writes atheism greek not theos god belief that there god agnosticism greek not gnostein know belief that not possible determine there god agnosticism you have here defined positive belief belief that not possible determine the existence any gods that belief inclined reject you have also defined atheism here positive belief that there god fairly large number atheists alt atheism reject this definition instead holding that atheism simply the absence belief god michael martin atheism philosophical justification distinguishes strong atheism mistake will have get newer dictionary and read the follow line larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
alt.atheism	political atheists reference line trimmed ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott sauyet writes first make the assumption that you agree that murderer one who has commited murder well say that murderer one who intentionally committed murder for instance you put bullet into gun that was thought contain blanks and someone was killed with such gun the person who actually performed the action isn the murderer but guess this actually made clear the below definition interested see more reasonable definition what you mean reasonable otherwise your inductive definition doesn bottom out your definition essence that murder the intentional killing someone who has not commited murder against his will expanding the second occurence murder the above see that yes bad include the word being defined the definition but even though the series recursively infinite think the meaning can still deduced assume you can see the problem here correct inductive definition you must define something terms simpler case and you must have one several bottoming out cases for instance can define the factorial function the function which assigns positive integer the product the positive integers less than equal the positive integers inductively follows math lesson deleted okay let look this situation suppose there longstanding feud between two families which claim that the other committed some travesty the distant past each time member the one family kills member the other the other family thinks that justified killing that member the first family now let suppose that this sequence has occurred infinite number times you don like dealing with infinities suppose that one member the family goes back into time and essentially begins the whole thing that there never ending loop slayings based some non existent travesty how you resolve this well they are all murders now suppose that this isn totally applicable your problem but still possible reduce uninduced system and any case the nested murderer the definition murder cannot infintely recursive given the finite existence humanity and murder cannot committed without killing involved the first person intentionally cause someone get killed necessarily murderer this enough induction solve the apparently unreducable definition see totally objective system where all the information available such nested definition isn really problem keith
alt.atheism	political atheists article pigidinnsot gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis writes for rape surely there the burden guilt solely the rapist not you are thrown into cage with tiger and get mauled you blame the tiger human has greater control over his her actions than predominately instictive tiger proper analogy would you are thrown into cage with person and get mauled you blame that person yes providing that that person was responsible frame mind not clinicaly insane pcb etc one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	idle questions for fellow atheists article apr mac macalstr edu acooper mac macalstr edu writes wonder how many atheists out there care speculate the face the world atheists were the majority rather than the minority group the population probably would have much the same problems with only slight shift emphasis weekends might not inviolate more common work days week business and instead american atheists would have similar religious organizations persons religious belief seems more crutch and justification for actions than guide determine actions course people would have come with more fascinating rationalizations for their actions but that could fun watch seems that for most people religion america doesn matter that much you have extreemists both ends but large majority don make too much issue about long you don now admittedly have never had suffer the bible belt but just north and see the fringes and the reasonable people most things tend reasonable religion well also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor higher value their way thinking over the theistic way thinking the typical selfish argument would that both lines thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation one not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again measuring stick must drawn somewhere and cannot assign value system beliefs its core than the only other alternative apply its periphery how expresses its own selfishness don bother according higher value thinking just about anybodys thinking don want fall that trap because you start that then you are then decide which better says whom why there best and also what about those who have inferior modes thinking idic infinite diversity infinite combinations argue over soda but not over much more just what inflation has done
alt.atheism	the problem satan used islamic authority over women article apr news unomaha edu trajan cwis unomaha edu stephen mcintyre writes course bobby then states that satan has free will that does god wants him this brings host paradoxes god therefore evil have free will god directing also god evil which part his infinite self good and which evil etc would like for once solid answer not run about hope gave you fairly solid answer this one simply don agree with the embodied version satan who separate creation force wrote the belief which ascribe that evil not creation rather the absence good this fits with all the logic about things having dual use knife can used sculpt and can used kill like entropy evil seen this view neither force nor entity satan therefore metaphorical fact there are several verses the holy qur which appear support this view and several traditions well for example there tradition that food should never left open shelf table overnight lest satan enter appears that this reference yet undiscovered germs thus the evil effect spoiled food described satan but there are many examples satan personified which believe and there are quite physical descriptions heaven and hell the holy qur the bible etc there have been times the spiritual and intellectual evolution the modern human when these physical descriptions heaven hell and satan were taken quite literally and that worked for the time mentioned the tradition cited above for example was sufficient the absence theory about germs and disease spread worms simply describe the evil which was passed consumer spoiled food satanic which begs the question satan this case metaphorical how can you certain allah not the same way the bottom line here however that describing spiritual plane human language something like describing color person who has been blind from birth you may want read the book flatland you haven already the dragon egg the first intended light hearted description mathematical con cept some deleted for space saving when language fails because cannot used adequately describe another dimension which cannot experienced the speakers then such conventions metaphor allegory and the like come necessary the unseen described terms which have reference and meaning for the reader listener but like all models compro mise must made when speaking metaphorically clarity and directness meaning equivalence perception and the like are all crippled but what else can you this why asked the above how would you then know god exists spirit being rather than just being metaphorical mean okay say well satan just metaphorical but then you have justify this belief and justify that god not some metaphor for something else say this because there are many many instances satan described being such the tormentor the old testament book job the temptor the new testament gospels the same way god too described being spirit how know one metaphorical and not the other further belief god isn bar evil let consider the case satanists even satan were metaphorical the satanist would have believe god justify this belief again have case where someone does believe god but religious standards they are evil bobby does see this let him address this question also deleted some more metaphor obviously more philosophizing this issue possible but not sure that the readers this newsgroup would want delve into religious interpretation further however anyone wishes discuss this certainly willing either off line mail line posting stephen atheist libertarian pro individuality pro responsibility and all that jazz
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article pmjo inn lynx unm edu bevans carina unm edu mathemagician writes just what gay people that straight people don absolutely nothing very straight arrow year old male that involved the bsa don care what gay people among each other long they don make passes anything summer camp where work boss gay not pansy way gay know few but just one the guys doesn push anything and give him the same respect back due his position anything the bsa has taught don know tolerance something before met this guy thought all gays were faries the bsa has taught antibigot basically comes down this what you among yourself your own business one else has the right tell you otherwise unless violates someone else civil rights
alt.atheism	gospel dating date mon apr gmt from stilgar west next cville wam umd edu article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the illiad the undisputed word god prove wrong dispute ergo counter example you are proven wrong dispute your counter example ergo counter counter example you are wrong and right nanny nanny boo boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh this looks like serious case temporary islam
alt.atheism	word advice article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes said enough times that there alternative that should think you might have caught now and there alternative but the point rationality isn alternative either the problems metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable should say humans cannot solve them how does that saying those who say can done shouldn interrupt those who are doing jim have you washed your brain today
alt.atheism	concerning god morality long jbrown batman bmd trw com writes sorry but there are supernatural forces necessary create pathogen you are saying since diseases are bad the bad entity must have created what would you say about acid rain meteors falling from the sky volcanoes earthquakes and other quote unquote acts god would say that they are not acts god but natural occurrences amazes that you have the audacity say that human creation was not the result the natural process evolution but rather act god and then the same post say that these other processes volcanos are natural occurrences who gave you the right choose what things are natural processes and what are direct acts god how you know that god doesn cause each and every natural disaster with specific purpose mind would certainly along with the sadistic nature seen the bible even satan had nothing with the original inception disease evolution random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god protection choose live apart from god law humanity collectively then should come surprise that there are adverse consequences our collective action one these that are left deal with disease and disorders which inevitably result entropic universe may ask where this collective bullcrap coming from collective was referring the idea that god works with humanity two levels individually and collectively mankind whole decides undertake certain action the majority mankind then god will allow the consequences that action affect mankind whole adam eve two people even tho they had the honor you christians claim being the first two definitely not represent majority the billions and trillions probably more people that have come after them perhaps they were the majority then but and you weren around vote and perhaps might have voted differently about what with that tree but your god never asked just assumes that you have two bad people then they all must bad hmm sounds like the same kind false generalization that see many the theists posting here resorting that where they get shoulda known jim nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu lying ourselves more deeply ingrained than lying others
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes that your mistake would better for the children the mother raised the child one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised study and you will get point but way you have claim that would better the men stayed home and raised the child that something false made feminists that seek status above men you not recognize the fact that men and women have natural differences not just physically but mentally also your logic didn say americans were the cause worlds problems said atheists becuase they have code ethics follow which means that atheists can whatever they want which they feel right something totally based their feelings and those feelings cloud their rational thinking yeah didn say that all atheists are bad but that they could bad good with nothing define bad good awright bobby back all his shit for brains glory just when thought turned the corner progress his thorazine prescription runs out put him kill file but man this good stuff wish had his staying power fortunately learned not take him too seriously long long long ago bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes peace bobby get this the hell out your sig until you learn what stands for and really mean bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	omnipotence was speculations article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date fri apr from nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu can god uncreate itself for did would violate his own nature which cannot god nature exist after all the which statement his inherent existence existence itself existence cannot not exist then mentioned above must not very omnipotent what you mean omnipotent here you mean omnipotent that god should able anything everything this creates self contradictory definition omnipotence which effectively useless descriptive omnipotence must mean being all powerful and not being able anything everything let illustrate analogy suppose the united states were the only nuclear power earth suppose further that the military could not effectively countered any nation group nations the has the power into any country any time for any reason straighten things out the leaders the see fit the would militarily omnipotent but suppose further that the holds doctrine philosophy not interfering the internal affairs any nation such the current civil war the former yugoslavian states technically this scenario the would have the power unilaterally into yugoslavia and straighten out the mess but effectively the could not intervene without violating its own policy non interference the policy non interference were held strongly enough then there would never question that would ever violated effectively the would limited what could actually although had the power whatever wanted the would simply never want interfere for such idea would beyond the consideration its leaders given such inviolate non interference policy god effectively limited the same sense all powerful but cannot use his power way that would violate the essence what himself hope this helps clear some the misunderstanding concerning omnipotence regards jim
alt.atheism	islamic marriage article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes article qav austin ibm com karner austin ibm com karner writes okay you want name names there are obviously official records these pseudo marriages because they are performed for convenience what happens typically that the woman willing move with her lover without any scruples legal contracts speak the man merely utilizing loophole entering into temporary religious marriage contract order have sex nobody complains nobody cares nobody needs know perhaps you should alert your imam could that this practice far more widespread than you may think maybe takes muslim men witness the penetration decide the practice exists again you astound with the level ignorance you display muslims are not allowed enter temporary marriages got that there evidence for outlawed practise get your facts straight buddy give references for just tell everyone you were lying not widespread you may think fantasise fact contrary your fantasies not practised all amongst muslims first all not your buddy second read what wrote not talking about what muslims are allowed merely what some practice they consider themselves muslim you don retort with the old and tired they must not true muslims bullshit gave you the names what will you with this information fatwa going leashed out against the perpetrators you honestly think that someone who did would voluntarily come forward and confess with the kind extremism shown your religionaries fat chance any rate there can conclusive proof the very nature the act perhaps people that indulge this practice agree with you theory but hope that allah will forgive them the end think rather arrogant you pretend speak for all muslims this regard also kind silly are you insinuating that because the koranic law forbids there are criminals muslim countries this far care this subject the weakness your arguments are for all netters see over and out disclaimer the opinions expressed this posting are mine solely and not represent employer any way karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	political atheists article innq gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes reference line trimmed livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes there good deal more confusion here you started off with the assertion that there was some objective morality and you admit here you finished with recursive definition murder objectively immoral but eactly what murder and what not itself requires appeal morality yes now you have switch targets little but only little now you are asking what the goal what you mean goal are you suggesting that there some objective goal out there somewhere and form our morals achieve well for example the goal natural morality the survival and propogation the species got just this far what you mean goal hope you don mean imply that evolution has conscious goal jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article pic linnrau gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes personal objection that find capital punishment cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances can painless isn cruel and has occurred frequently since the dawn time hardly unusual koff you mean that long put you sleep first can kill you without being cruel this changes everything jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article pieg inns gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes now along comes keith schneider and says here objective moral system and then start ask him about the definitions that this objective system depends and predictably the whole thing falls apart only falls apart you attempt apply this doesn mean that objective system can exist just means that one cannot implemented not the fact that can exist that bothers the fact that you don seem able define wanted hear about indefinable things that might principle exist long you don think about them too carefully could ask religious person now couldn jon
alt.atheism	pompous ass article btinnqa gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes then why people keep asking the same questions over and over because you rarely ever answer them nope answered each question posed and most were answered multiple times fifty dollars can answer your question she what the big bang theory the big bang theory recipe for cookies she fifty dollars please hey didn say the answers would make sense jon
alt.atheism	pompous ass article jkinnqe gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes how long does the motto have stay around before becomes the default where the cutoff point don know where the exact cutoff but least after few years and surely after years why does the notion default not take into account changes population makeup specifically which changes are you talking about are you arguing that the motto interpreted offensive larger portion the population now than years ago have just commenting that makes very little sense consider everything inherit the default seen any steam trains recently jon
alt.atheism	concerning god morality long article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com responds lot grief given him article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton the sagemaster but then ask where this relevant discussion answering john question why why are there genetic diseases and why are there many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies develop antibodies god fault the original question say not most scotty followup was irrelevant the original question but this not unusual threads often quickly evolve away from the original topic what could not understand why jim spent much time responding what regarded irrelevancies may ask where this collective bullcrap coming from collective was referring the idea that god works with humanity two levels individually and collectively mankind whole decides undertake certain action the majority mankind well guess hypothetical adam was the majority mankind seeing how was the only man the time then god will allow the consequences that action affect mankind whole you didn understand that then apologize for not using one and two syllable words discussion understand what you mean collective but think insane perversion justice what sort judge would punish the descendants for crime committed their ancestor you want sure that read your post and provide response send copy jim brown bmd trw com can read every day and some posts slip thanks well must admit that you probably read more often than read the bible these days but you missed couple good followups your post sending you personal copy followup which hope you will respond publically john the sageless
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes article aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes jon what ken said was there have previously been people like you your country unfortunately most jews did not survive that sure sounds like ken accusing the guy being nazi previous posting deleted yes yes this perfectly fine rant and agree with completely but what does have with anything the issue hand here whether not ken accused the fellow from germany being nazi grant that did not explicity make this accusation but came pretty damn close certainly accusing the guy sympathizing with those who would like exterminate the jews and that good enough for the poster casually trashed two thousand years jewish history and ken replied that there had previously been people like him germany that right there have been there have also been people who were formally nazis but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support the ordinary man the street who behaved though casual anti semitism was perfectly acceptable now what exactly don you understand about what wrote and why don you see what has with the matter hand jon
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article apr mac macalstr edu acooper mac macalstr edu writes article pint fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well germany was hardly the only country discriminate against the jews although has the worst reputation because did the best job expressing general european dislike them this should not turn into debate antisemitism but you should also point out that luther antisemitism was based religious grounds while hitler was racial grounds and wagnmer aesthetic grounds just blanketing the whole group poor analysis even they all are bigots find these intriguing remarks could you give bit more explanation here for example which religion anti semitic and which aesthetic jon
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes ivt cfj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes should british around blowing skyscrapers next don know you are doing but seems you are implying that the person accused blowing the wtc actually did and that islamic teachings have something with blowing the wtc was replying person who attempted justify the fatwa against rushdie the grounds that his work was intentionally insulting think that take single sentence from fairly long posting and say don know you are doing but seems you are implying the very best quite disingenuous and perhaps even dishonest anyone care dig back and read the full posting they will see nothing the kind trust you don deny that islamic teaching has something with the fatwa against rushdie jon
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes don understand the point this petty sarcasm basic principle islam that one born muslim one says testify that there god but god and mohammad prophet god that long one does not explicitly reject islam word then one must considered muslim all muslims the phenomenon you attempting make into general rule psychology direct odds with basic islamic principles you want attack islam you could better than than argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts then mozumder incorrect when says that when committing bad acts people temporarily become atheists jon
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes saddam believed god would pray five times day communism the other hand actually committed genocide the name atheism lenin and stalin have said themselves these two were die hard atheist look pun and believed atheism integral part communism bobby stalin killed millions the name socialism atheism was characteristic the lenin stalin version socialism nothing more another characteristic lenin stalin socialism was the centralization food distribution would you therefore say that stalin and lenin killed millions the name rationing bread course not more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else earlier posts you stated that true muslim believers were incapable evil suppose you believe that you could reason that one has ever been killed the name religion what perfect world you live bobby one the reasons that you are atheist that you limit god giving god form god does not have face bobby referring rather obscure law the good atheist handbook law xxvi give that which you not believe face you must excuse bobby when argue against theism usually argue against the christian idea god the realm christianity man was created god image kevin marshall sophomore computer science virginia tech blacksburg usa marshall csugrad edu
alt.atheism	the list biblical contradictions joslin pogo isp pitt edu david joslin writes someone writes found list biblical contradictions and cleaned bit but now like some help with curious know what purpose people think these lists serve about time why atheists spend much time paying attention the bible anyway face there are better things with your life used chuckle and snort over the silliness that book and the absurdity people believing truth etc why spend little time the mayan religion the native americans heck the native americans have signifigantly more interesting myths also what about the egyptians think pay much attention christianity because accept religion and not mythology which find more accurate try tolerant gets very hard when someone places book under nose and tells special not carolyn
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses apr mst jbrown batman bmd trw com said god eternal jesus god therefore jesus eternal this works both logically and mathematically god the set things which are eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs the set things which are eternal everything isn always logical mercedes car that girl mercedes therefore that girl car heikki
alt.atheism	political atheists article rusnews mantis mathew mantis mathew writes article apr blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes the automobile system kills non driving passengers not mention pedestrians you need not drive even use car killed one indeed and kills far more than system public transport would therefore entirely favour banning private cars and replacing them with trains buses taxis bicycles and seconded cycle work each day and could just get those damned cars and their cretinous drivers off the road would lot more fun jon
alt.atheism	political atheists article rusnews mantis mathew mantis mathew writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes and meaning people who drive accept the risks doing and contribute tax money design systems minimize those risks already have systems minimize those risks just that you car drivers don want use them they called bicycles trains and buses poor matthew million posters call you car drivers and chooses non car owner jon
alt.atheism	omnipotence was speculations article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date fri apr from nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu can god uncreate itself for did would violate his own nature which cannot god nature exist after all the which statement his inherent existence existence itself existence cannot not exist then mentioned above must not very omnipotent what you mean omnipotent here you mean omnipotent that god should able anything everything this creates self contradictory definition omnipotence which effectively useless descriptive omnipotence must mean being all powerful and not being able anything everything let illustrate analogy suppose the united states were the only nuclear power earth suppose further that the military could not effectively countered any nation group nations the has the power into any country any time for any reason straighten things out the leaders the see fit the would militarily omnipotent did you check with the afghans before posting this they might disagree jon
alt.atheism	little too satanic mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes nanci ann miller writes favorite reply the you are being too literal minded complaint that the bible really inspired god and really that important him then would make damn certain all the translators and scribes and people interpreting and copying were getting right literally not then why should put any merit all something that has been corrupted over and over and over man even was originally inspired god the corrupted over and over theory pretty weak comparison the current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text has fact changed very little over space some two millennia this shouldn all that suprising people who believe text this manner are likely makes some pains make good copies you honestly hold that tripe charley for start there are enough current versions the bible make comparisons show that what you write above utter garbage witness mormon catholic anglican and greek orthodox bibles but really convince you have take you good old library our local library had king james which compared brand new hot god tongue good news bible genesis was almost unrecognisable many the discrepencies between the four gospels had been edited from the good news bible fact the god good news was much more congenial fellow must say you like get the king james out again and actually give you some quotes least the headings haven changed much jeff
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes why more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can just pick your two favorite trends notice correlation them and make sweeping statement generality mean you can and people have but that does not mean that valid reasonable thesis best gross oversimplification the push pull factors people experience agree reckon television and the increase fundamentalism you think its the increase pre marital sex others thinks its because psychologists have taken over the criminal justice system and let violent criminals con them into letting them out into the streets others think the increase designer drugs others think communist plot basically the social interactions all the changing factors our society are far too complicated for control just have hold the panic handles and hope that are heading for soft landing but one things for sure depression and the destruction the nuclear family not due solely sex out marriage jeff fred rice muslim giving his point view darice yoyo monash edu cfaehl vesta unm edu
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article apr njitgw njit edu dmu hertz njit edu david utidjian eng sci writes article mar juliet caltech edu lmh juliet caltech edu henling lawrence writes for complete description what and not atheism agnosticism see the faq for alt atheism alt answers think utidjian remarque berkeley edu apologize for posting this thought was only going talk origins also took definitions from websters nonetheless the apparent past arguments over these words imply that like bimonthly and biweekly they have commonly accepted definitions and should used with care larry henling lmh shakes caltech edu
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article aaa fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes article pint fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes deletions jon what ken said was there have previously been people like you your country unfortunately most jews did not survive that sure sounds like ken accusing the guy being nazi hitler and the nazis didn spring fully formed from the forehead athena they didn invent anti semitism they built foundation anti semitism that was already present germany this foundation anti semitism was laid down not the nazis but the people listed and also hundreds years unthinking knee jerk bigotry the part perfectly ordinary people and course their pastors and priests what have worry about today not whether some hollywood hitler black uniform going come striding onto the german stage one unprepared step but whether those same bedrock foundations anti semitism are being laid down little little germany speak and they will laid down not hitlers and himmlers who will come later but people like the poster question the people who think that casual anti semitism acceptable even fun deletions did now may suggest with the greatest possible respect that you read some history jon you consider the german poster remark anti semitic perhaps you imply that anyone germany who doesn agree with israely policy nazi pray tell how does even qualify casual anti semitism the term doesn apply why then bring your own bigotry shining through disclaimer the opinions expressed this posting are mine solely and not represent employer any way karner aix technical support karner austin vnet ibm com
alt.atheism	omnipotence was speculations article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes god effectively limited the same sense all powerful but cannot use his power way that would violate the essence what himself cannot try will not one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article suopanki apr stekt oulu suopanki stekt oulu heikki suopanki writes god eternal jesus god therefore jesus eternal this works both logically and mathematically god the set things which are eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs the set things which are eternal everything isn always logical mercedes car that girl mercedes therefore that girl car this not strickly correct only incorrect application the rules language does seem work the mercedes the first premis and the one the second are not the same mercedes your case and are not equal one name person the other the name object you can not simply extract word without taking the context into account course your case doesn imply that his case does equal try again one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	islam the jehovah witnesses article apr princeton edu qpliu princeton edu writes article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes but god created lucifer with perfect nature and gave him along with the other angels free moral will now god could have prevented lucifer fall taking away his ability choose between moral alternatives worship god worship himself lucifer moral choices are determined his will what determines what his will qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated bobby few posts ago you said that lucifer had free will from the above seems the believes the contrary are you talking about the same lucifer can you suggest experiment determine which you wrong you claim that you are both right norman
alt.atheism	had share this article apr acme gen kilroy acme gen earthbound misfit writes bena dec monash edu ben aveling writes warning you are anything like devout christian this post really going offend and upset you numerous ctrl deleted hehehe assume everyone here familiar with the christian fish symbol the one the back all those volvos the one that looks something like perhaps more like well found out this morning where comes from been stolen from the pagans like much else last last chance blisfully ignorant hmm how can put well comes from this sigh hate drawing with ascii chars still think you can work out from there you haven read skinny legs and all tom robbins even accurate then most the modern religions have been appropriated also great book followups alt atheism whose readers are probably slightly more authorative this craig harding kilroy acme gen acme bbs jub lbh pnyyvat obmb craig thought was derived from greek acronym greek isn much but goes something like this jesus christ god iesus christos theos ichthos which the greek for fish ichthysaurus apologies for dreadful greek perhaps someone will correct the way what does your sig mean norman
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes one the reasons that you are atheist that you limit god giving god form god does not have face wait minute thought you said that allah presume allah god was unknowable and yet here you are claiming know very concrete fact about him you say that god does not have face doesn the bible say that god has hindparts how you suggest decide which any you right are you both right god has hindparts but face does your use quotation marks god does not have face allow you interpret this mean whatever you like peace bobby mozumder norman
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes but could you give definition free will especially the presence omniscient being will self determination other words god created conscious beings who have the ability choose between moral choices independently god all will therefore free will these hypothetical conscious beings can ignore any influences their circumstances their genetics their environment their experiences which are not all self determined course the idea hell makes the idea free will dubious the other hand the idea hell not very powerful idea parable for you there was once our main character who blah blah blah one day thug pointed mean looking gun omc and said what say blasting you hell omc thought believe this thug and follow the instructions that will given avoid getting blasted hell the other hand believe this thug and not follow the instructions that will given get blasted hell hmm the more attractive choice obvious follow the instructions now omc found the choice obvious because everything omc had learned about getting blasted hell made appear very undesirable but then omc noticed that the thug gun wasn real gun the thug threats were make believe omc ignored the thug and resumed blah blah blah qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	gospel dating article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the illiad the undisputed word god prove wrong dispute ergo counter example you are proven wrong dispute your counter example ergo counter counter example you are wrong and right nanny nanny boo boo tbbbbbbbtttttthhhhh the premis stated that was undisputed fine the illiad the word god disputed not dispute that won matter prove wrong brian west this not sig file the earth have been this not sig file here but for the blink sig file eye were gone tomorrow posted west wam umd edu would not missed who doesn care who knows jurassic park diclaimer said this meant this nobody made
alt.atheism	gospel dating article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes fine the illiad the word god disputed not dispute that won matter prove wrong the illiad contains more than one word ergo can not the word god but you will humbly agree that the words god will conceed one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article pik fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes why you spend much time posting here your atheism incidental the question god trivial fess matters you great deal ask yourself two questions how important mithras your life today how important would mithras become there was well funded group fanatics trying get the schools system teach your children that mithras was the one true god jon right jon who cares who whose long works for the individual but don try impose those beliefs our children would add the well funded group tries also purge science deny children access great wonders and skills and how about the kids born creationists what burden with which begin adult life must cruel awakening for those who finally see the light provided possible escape from the depths this type ignorance
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses jbrown batman bmd trw com writes syllogism the form therefore this logically valid construction your syllogism however the form therefore therefore yours logically invalid construction and your comments don apply appeal mathew mantis here who wrote the excellent post now part the faq logical argument jim not mathew mantis but any successful first year logic student will see that you are logically correct the other poster logically incorrect know nothing more than believe with pretentions
alt.atheism	concerning god morality was americans and evolution article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes why babies get diseases etc what god did create was life according protein code which mutable and can evolve without delving into deep discussion creationism evolutionism here the main problem the scenario you outline reasonably consistent but all the evidence that familiar with not only does not support but indicates something far different the earth latest estimates about billion years old and has had life for about billion those years humans have only been around for most about years but the fossil evidence inidcates that life has been changing and evolving and fact disease ridden long before there were people yes there are fossils that show signs disease mostly bone disorders course but there are some heck not just fossil evidence but what been able glean from genetic study shows that disease has been around for long long time human sin was what brought about disease least indirectly though necessarily then how could exist before humans god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw and without getting sidetracked into the theological ramifications the original sin the main effect the called original sin for this discussion was remove humanity from god protection since their choice cut themselves off from intimate fellowship with god addition their sin caused them come under the dominion satan who then assumed dominion over the earth deletions since humanity was longer under god protection but under satan dominion was great feat for satan genetically engineer diseases both bacterial viral and genetic although the forces natural selection tend improve the survivability species the degeneration the genetic code tends more than offset this know many evolutionary biologists who know more about biology than you claim who will strongly disagree with this there evidence that the human genetic code any other started off perfect condition seems adapt its envionment collective sense really curious what you mean the degeneration the genetic code human dna being more complex tends accumulate errors adversely affecting our well being and ability fight off disease while the simpler dna bacteria and viruses tend become more efficient causing infection and disease bad combination umm nah seem pretty good job adapting viruses and bacteria and they only very small percentage microlife harmful humans and that small percentage seems reasonalby constant size but the ranks keep changing for example bubonic plague used really nasty disease sure you agree but still pops from time time even today and doesn much damage part that because better sanitation but even when people get the disease the symptoms tend less severe than the past this seems partly because people who were very susceptible died off long ago and because the really nasty variants overgrazed forgive the poor terminology engineer not doctor and died off for lack nearby hosts could wrong this but from what gather acne only few hundred years old and used nastier though killer seems getting less nasty age hence have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial diseases disorders now wait minute have question humans were created perfect right and you admit that have inbuilt abiliy fight off disease seems unlikely that satan who making the diseases would also gift humans with the means fight them off simpler make the diseases less lethal wants survivors far can see our immune systems imperfect though they may presently must have been built into god want clear this are you saying that god was planning ahead for the time when satan would charge building immune system that was not the time design necessary that god made our immune systems ahead time knowing that adam and eve would sin and their descendents would need fight off diseases this may more mystical supernatural explanation than you are prepared accept but god not responsible for disease even satan had nothing with the original inception disease evolution random chance would have produced them since humanity forsook god protection here another puzzle what exactly you mean perfect the phrase created perfect and without flaw mind perfect system would incapable degrading over time perfect system that will without constant intervention become imperfect not perfect system least imho that god did something like writing masterpiece novel bunch gum wrappers held together with elmer glue that the original genetic instructions were perfect but were written inferior materials that had carefully tended would fall apart why could god not have used better materials was god incapable creating system that could maintain itself did just choose not deletions summary newborns are innocent but god does not cause their suffering main point said was that there really isn any evidence for the explanation you give least that aware but couldn help making few nitpicks here and there sincerely ray ingles the above opinions are probably not those the university ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
alt.atheism	concerning god morality long article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton writes deletions now back your post you have done fine job using your seventh grade life science course explain why bad diseases are caused satan and good things are result god but want let you little secret can create amino acid sequence lab and guess what the sequence curls into helix wow that right can happen without supernatural force wow all takes few advanced science degrees and millions dollars state the art equipment and thought took intelligence create the building blocks life foolish people with advanced science degrees use state the art equipment and spend millions dollars simulate tornadoes but tornadoes not require intelligence exist not only that the equipment needed not really state the art study the products yes but not generate them you want sure that read your post and provide response send copy jim brown bmd trw com can read every day and some posts slip thanks will sincerely ray ingles the above opinions are probably not those the university ingles engin umich edu michigan yet
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam date apr gmt from jon livesey livesey solntze wpd sgi com article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes don understand the point this petty sarcasm basic principle islam that one born muslim one says testify that there god but god and mohammad prophet god that long one does not explicitly reject islam word then one must considered muslim all muslims the phenomenon you attempting make into general rule psychology direct odds with basic islamic principles you want attack islam you could better than than argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts then mozumder incorrect when says that when committing bad acts people temporarily become atheists jon course not incorrect defending islam when defending islam against infidels you can say anything and one will dare criticize you but when atheist uses the same argument using petty sarcasm can have his temporary atheists whenever needs them and all the temporary atheists can later say that they were always good muslims because they never explicitly rejected islam temporary atheism temporary islam temporary marriage none sticks teflon religion how convenient and easy clean after but then what would you expect from bunch people who can even agree the phases the moon
alt.atheism	concerning god morality long this kind argument cries for comment jbrown batman bmd trw com wrote article apr leland stanford edu galahad leland stanford edu scott compton writes jim you originally wrote god did not create disease nor responsible for the maladies newborns what god did create was life according protein code which mutable and can evolve without delving into deep discussion creationism evolutionism god created the original genetic code perfect and without flaw you have any evidence for this the code was once perfect and has degraded ever since should have some evidence favour this statement shouldn perhaps the biggest imperfection the code that full non coding regions introns which are called because they intervene with the coding regions exons impressive amount evidence suggests that introns are very ancient origin likely that early exons represented early protein domains the number introns decreasing increasing appears that intron loss can occur and species with common ancestry usually have quite similar exon intron structure their genes the other hand the possibility that introns have been inserted later presents several logical difficulties introns are removed splicing mechanism this would have present but unused introns are inserted moreover intron insertion would have required precise targeting random insertion would not tolerated since sequences for intron removal self splicing mrna are conserved besides transposition sequence usually leaves trace long terminal repeats and target site duplications and these are not found near intron sequences seriously recommend reading textbooks molecular biology and genetics before posting theological arguments like this try watson molecular biology the gene darnell lodish baltimore molecular biology the cell for starters remember the question was posed theological context why does god cause disease newborns and answer likewise from theological perspective own less valid than purely scientific perspective just different scientific perspective supported the evidence whereas theological perspectives often fail fulfil this criterion think you misread meaning said god made the genetic code perfect but that doesn mean perfect now has certainly evolved since for the worse would you please cite few references that support your assertion your assertion less valid than the scientific perspective unless you support some evidence fact has been claimed that parasites and diseases are perhaps more important than thought for instance sex might have evolved defence against parasites this view supported computer simulations evolution tierra perhaps thought was higher energy rays like rays gamma rays and cosmic rays that caused most the damage fact thermal energy that does most the damage although usually mild and easily fixed enzymatic action actually neither knows what the atmosphere was like the time when god created life according recollection most biologists not claim that life began billion years ago after all that would only half billion years after the earth was created would still too primitive support life seem remember figure more like billion years ago for the origination life earth anyone with better estimate replace created with formed since there need invoke any creator the earth can formed without one most recent estimates the age the earth range between billion years and earliest signs life not true fossils but organic stromatolite like layers date back billion years this would leave more than billion years for the first cells evolve sorry can give any references this based the course evolutionary biochemistry attended here dominion was great feat for satan genetically engineer diseases both bacterial viral and genetic although the forces natural selection tend improve the survivability species the degeneration the genetic code tends more than offset this again you want this true you have any evidence for this supposed degeneration can understand scott reaction excuse but this far fetched that know you must jesting you know what pathogens are you know what point mutations are you know that everything can come about spontaneously response your last statement and neither you you may very well believe that and accept fact but you cannot know that hope you don forget this have evidence that suggests everything can come about spontaneously you have evidence against this conclusion science one does not have believe anything healthy sign doubt and disbelieve but the right path walk take look the evidence you and not present one own conclusions prior this theology does not use this method therefore seriously doubt could ever come right conclusions human dna being more complex tends accumulate errors adversely affecting our well being and ability fight off disease while the simpler dna bacteria and viruses tend become more efficient causing infection and disease bad combination hence have newborns that suffer from genetic viral and bacterial diseases disorders you are supposing purpose not valid move bacteria and viruses not exist cause disease they are just another manifests general principle evolution only replication saves replicators from degradiation are just efficient method for our dna survive and replicate the less efficient methods didn make the present and for the last time please present some evidence for your claim that human dna degrading through evolutionary processes some people have claimed that the opposite true have suppressed our selection and thus are bound degrade haven seen much evidence for either claim but then ask where this relevant discussion answering john question why why are there genetic diseases and why are there many bacterial and viral diseases which require babies develop antibodies god fault the original question say not course nothing evil god fault but your explanation does not work fails miserably you may right but the fact that you don know that satan not responsible and neither suppose that powerful evil being like satan exists would inconceivable that might responsible for many the ills that affect mankind don think could have done much better job pun intended the problem seems satan necessary explain any diseases they are just inevitable any product evolution did say that where seems like another bad inference actually what you done oversimplify what said the point that your summary words takes new context never said that people are meant presumably god punished getting diseases why did say that free moral choices have attendent consequences mankind chooses reject god people have done since the beginning then they should not expect god protect them from adverse events entropic universe not expecting this god exists expect him leave alone would also like hear why you believe your choices are indeed free this interesting philosophical question and the answer not clear cut seems what consequences would you expect from rejecting allah admit not perfect yet but working good library bookstore good starting point what does this have with the price tea china the question which provided answer biology and genetics are fine subjects and important scientific endeavors but they explain how god created and set life processes they don explain the why behind creation life its subsequent evolution why there why behind and your proposition was something that not supported the evidence this why recommend these books there any need invoke any why behind prime mover evidence for this the whole universe can come into existence without any intervention recent cosmological theories hawking suggest why people still insist this thanks scotty for your fine and sagely advice but not highly motivated learn all the nitty gritty details biology and genetics although sure find fascinating subject for realize that the details not change the big picture that god created life the beginning with the ability change and adapt its environment sorry but they there evidence for your big picture and need create anything that capable adaptation can come into existence without supreme being try reading atkins creation revisited freeman petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	islam dress code for women article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes women have souls islam people have said here that some muslims say that women not have souls must admit have never heard such view being held muslims any era have heard some christians some eras holding this viewpoint but not muslims are you sure you might not confusing christian history with islamic history yes supposed have been predominant view the turkish caliphate not aware any turkish caliphate viewpoint this can you reference however found quote due imam ali whom the shias follow men never obey your women any way whatsoever never let them give their advice any matter whatsoever even those everyday life indeed allow them freely give advice anything and they will fritter away one wealth and disobey the wishes the owner this wealth see them without religion when alone they are left their own devices they are lacking both pity and virtue when their carnal desires are stake easy enjoy them but they cause great anxiety the most virtious among them are libertines but the most corrupt are whores only those them whom age has deprived any charm are untainted vice they have three qualities particular miscreants they complain being oppressed whereas they who oppress they make oaths whereas they are lying they pretend refuse men solicitations whereas they desire them most ardently let beg the help god emerge victorious from their evil deeds and preserve any case from their good ones quote from mas qanawi ref bouhdiba sexuality islam wouldn consider this quote being exemplary the islamic viewpoint though for all know the prophet cousin and the fourth khalif hazret ali may have said this after frustrating night with woman selim guncer selim guncer jaca negra luna grande csser asu aceitunas alforja aunque sepa los caminos guncer enuxha eas asu edu nunca llegare cordoba fgl
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes that your mistake would better for the children the mother raised the child one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised study and you will get point but way you have claim that would better the men stayed home and raised the child that something false made feminists that seek status above men you not recognize the fact that men and women have natural differences not just physically but mentally also bobby there question here that just have ask all your posts aren some sort extended elaborate hoax why are you trying hard convince the entire civilised world that you feeble minded you have talent for saying the most absurd things here little sign for you print cut out and put top your computer terminal engage brain prior operating keyboard having said all that must admit all get laugh from your stuff graham jenkins graham jenkins its csiro csiro commonwealth scientific industrial canberra australia research organisation
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article daq fqs austin ibm com karner austin ibm com karner writes you consider the german poster remark anti semitic when someone says after years sightseeing and roaming around its come back kill palastinians and get their land back right yes that casual antisemitism can think plenty ways criticize israeli policy without insulting jews jewish history can you jon
alt.atheism	don more innocents die without the death penalty james tims psilink com writes maintaining classes and even prison seems place more innocent people higher risk unjust death than would the state executed classes and with occasional error would rather higher risk being killed than actually killed mistake though agree with the concept that the type and murderers are massive waste space and resources don agree with the concept killing wrong you kill will punish you our punishment will kill you seems lacking consistency know nothing more than believe with pretentions
alt.atheism	islam dress code for women article apr ennews eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu selim guncer writes wouldn consider this quote being exemplary the islamic viewpoint though for all know the prophet cousin and the fourth khalif hazret ali may have said this after frustrating night with woman that very interesting wonder are women reactions recorded after frustrating night with man that considered important jon
alt.atheism	there must creator maybe article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes deletions argument from incredulity has not been considered valid form reasoning since medieval times deletions interesting that you should mention that argument from incredulity has not been considered valid form reasoning since medieval times quite agree why then some atheists here engage more than few times have read posts where the atheists posting state that they cannot see how gracious and loving god can allow such evil and suffering occur see the earth simply because they cannot envision must not true this not argument from incredulity don know what you have presented indeed argument from incredulity however from what have seen not often presented this manner usually presented more the form and besides cannot see nor have ever been offered convincing explanation moreover not unreasonable ask for explanation for such phenomena that theism does not provide convincing explanation not argument theism favor especially when different theisms offer different explanations and even different adherents what purportedly the same theism give different explanations god has far more complex motivations and reasons for action non action than simply fix evil whenever and however occurs even before occurs and yet this very same argument from incredulity which ranks high among reasons why atheists general reject god and particular the christian god not experience experience the most common reason the lack evidence theism favor you mileage may vary this seems the universal bane human reasoning and rationality wit that far easier see the logical fallacy inept reasoning the part one opponents than see oneself heck snide this once also fairly easy attack arguments that are not made strawmen one man wisdom put take the log out your own eye before you try remove the splinter from your neighbor eye sage advice indeed sincerely raymond ingles ingles engin umich edu apple every eight hours keeps three doctors away kliban
alt.atheism	political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis writes perhaps shouldn imprision people could watch them closely instead the cost would probably similar especially just implanted some sort electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry don follow your reasoning you are proposing punish people before they commit crime what justification you have for this mathew proposing public defence mechanism not treating the electronic device impropriety the wearer what saying that the next step beyond what you propose the permanent bugging potential criminals this may not the surface sound like bad thing but who defines what potential criminal the government the day decides that being member opposition party makes you potential criminal then openly defying the government becomes lethal practice this not conducive free society mathew saying that implanting electronic surveillance devices upon people impropriety upon that person regardless what type crime what chance recidivism there basically you see the criminal justice system punishment for the offender and possibly therefore deterrant future offenders mathew sees most probably means rehabilitation for the offender was being cynical you okay jeff
alt.atheism	little too satanic article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes nanci ann miller writes the corrupted over and over theory pretty weak comparison the current hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text has fact changed very little over space some two millennia this shouldn all that suprising people who believe text this manner are likely makes some pains make good copies tell king james mate wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god john burke jdb summa tamu edu
alt.atheism	islamic marriage date tue apr gmt from karner karner austin ibm com article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes article qav austin ibm com karner austin ibm com karner writes okay you want name names there are obviously official records these pseudo marriages because they are performed for convenience what happens typically that the woman willing move with her lover without any scruples legal contracts speak the man merely utilizing loophole entering into temporary religious marriage contract order have sex nobody complains nobody cares nobody needs know perhaps you should alert your imam could that this practice far more widespread than you may think maybe takes muslim men witness the penetration decide the practice exists again you astound with the level ignorance you display muslims are not allowed enter temporary marriages got that there evidence for outlawed practise get your facts straight buddy give references for just tell everyone you were lying not widespread you may think fantasise fact contrary your fantasies not practised all amongst muslims did you miss post this topic with the quote from the indonesian handbook and fred rice comments about temporary marriages will glad repost them will you accept that just may practice among some muslims will you continue claim that are all lying and that not practised all amongst muslims don think karner has tell everyone anything least all that lying since you obviously know nothing about this practice there very little you can contribute the discussion except accuse everyone lying perhaps your ignorance which showing learn more about islam learn more about muslims open your eyes maybe you will also see some the things the atheists see
alt.atheism	don more innocents die without the death penalty article chrisb baarnie chrisb tafe edu chris bell writes killing wrong you kill will punish you our punishment will kill you seems lacking consistency not any more than holding people against their will wrong you hold people against their will will punish you our punishment will hold you against your will there any punishment which isn something which done private person another private person for apparent reason would lead punishment fines suppose jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article suopanki apr stekt oulu suopanki stekt oulu heikki suopanki writes god eternal jesus god therefore jesus eternal this works both logically and mathematically god the set things which are eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs the set things which are eternal the first premise and the conclusion are not properly translated identity statements since the those statements the predication rather than identity instead they should translated using predicate letter using designate god and designate jesus and the predicate letter for the property being eternal the first premise and the conclusion the second premise appears contain identity which case can properly symbolized but your remark that jesus subset god suggests that strict identity not desired here however the first premise means that all members making the set god have the property being eternal the same conclusion follows jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article chrisb baarnie chrisb tafe edu chris bell writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes syllogism the form therefore this logically valid construction your syllogism however the form therefore therefore yours logically invalid construction and your comments don apply all those are identity both syllogisms are valid however predicate then the second syllogism invalid the first syllogism you have pointed out valid whether predicate designates individual jim lippard lippard ccit arizona edu dept philosophy lippard arizvms bitnet university arizona tucson
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts student writes somewhere roger colin shouse writes about radical gay dogma somewhere else claims not claim have claim knowing those doesn know there are least twenty instances this kind muddleheaded fourth reich sophistique shit his postings maybe more fact not sure the instances could counted because they reproduce like virus the more you consider his words question this what the best response weasels like shouse and stan krieger possibilities study them dispassionately and figure out how they work then remember what you learned combat them when they their clones get into office contribute your insights your favorite abnormal psych ward learn overcome your repugnance for serial murder this posting totally uncalled for rec scouting the point has been raised and has been answered roger and have clearly stated our support the bsa position the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes violation the scout oath specifically the promise live morally straight there really nothing else discuss trying cloud the issue with comparisons blacks other minorities also meaningless because like comparing apples oranges people can control their race but they can control their behavior what else there possibly discuss rec scouting this issue nobody including bsa denying anybody the right live and worship they please don please but doesn mean that bsa the big bad wolf for adhering the recognized positive religious and moral standards which our society has been established and which should continue based stan krieger all opinions advice suggestions even unix system laboratories related employment are own summit smk usl com
alt.atheism	little too satanic article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes pnanci ann miller writes favorite reply the you are being too literal minded complaint that the bible really inspired god and really that important him then would make damn certain all the translators and scribes and people interpreting and copying were getting right literally not then why should put any merit all something that has been corrupted over and over and over man even was originally inspired god pthe corrupted over and over theory pretty weak comparison the pcurrent hebrew text with old versions and translations shows that the text phas fact changed very little over space some two millennia this pshouldn all that suprising people who believe text this manner pare likely makes some pains make good copies well corrupted the first time good enough seeing that the bible was constructed years after jesus death the text merchants owe this and owe that wonder how anyone can take the literal word seriously obviously was not intended for such nonsense otherwise the authors the bible would not need plagerize off the asians for most the contents that can interperated make sense
alt.atheism	americans and evolution atheism incidental and the question god trivial but matters great deal when idiots try force their belief when they try enforce their creation myths taught scientific fact school when they tell can have morals because morals are from god when successful presidential candidate says that atheist shouldn considered citizen and couldn patriotic because after all this one nation under god when the fundies try take over the party that may well provide the next president the united states america that they can force their beliefs the rest the country cetera that why subscribe alt atheism and the middle this people who aren mind readers pop alt atheism tell what don believe concoct some straw man reason why don share their particular belief you think should just accept this this isn particularly dig fundamentalist christians have been told alt atheism that reject allah because too proud embrace islam and that reject krishna because eyes are closed but most the religious nuts who post alt atheism are some kind militant christian who can accept that others don share their beliefs this kind stuff should kept talk religion misc where belongs atheism isn belief the absence belief any gods you have problem with this bill pfirst would like say that atheism fact belief beilief pbecause belief something you hold with ador and faith atheist says there are gods this cannot proven therefore you are excepting this pfaith alone that belief secondly you complain much about how the pfundamental christians are trying force their beliefs you but you don pmention anything about how the atheists such madamme murry hare founder pof the atheists association austin texas and robert sherman from the chicago area have been trying force their beliefs everyone trying get rid god from our society banning religious paintings from parks during chistmas forcing cities change their town seals there any mention god like sherman has done trying get the slogan god trust off the american currency you also talk about creation myths they are fact myths and tha phave concrete evidece this you probably pdon and that just enforces point that your atheism just much belief christianity this not please show why isn pmark covalt the only real problem have with the argument christianity that they seem ignore their origin that being asiatic origin soon christians become the good non ego centric buddhists they are supposed then might listen opinion speak not for place employment but should christ was over rated and will the atf follow koresh the current christ through his ascention heaven
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq introduction atheism have addition the faq regarding why are there atheist hospitals recall correctly johns hopkins was built provide medical services without the backing religious group thus making hospital dedicated the glory weak atheism might someone check this brian evans bad mood bad mood sure bad mood bevans carina unm edu haven had sex ever virgin mary
alt.atheism	theists posting article aic nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes stuff deleted there concordance for the faq which translation considered most authoritative there orthodox commentary for the faq available there one faq for militant atheists and another for moderate atheists you all read from the same faq how you resolve differences interpretation hmmmmmmmmmmmm can put the same question followers any religion how you moslems resolve differences opinion don tell that there one interpretation the quran read the soc culture newsgroups you will zillions different interpretations naren naren tekig pen tek com all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else list killings the name religion iran iraq war civil war sudan riots india pakistan massacares bangladesh inquistions america million crusades sure that people can add lot more the list wonder what bobby has say about the above standard excuses will not accepted naren all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism nanci ann miller andrew cmu edu writes snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes more horrible deaths resulted from atheism than anything else there are definitely quite few horrible deaths the result both atheists and theists perhaps since bit weak history somone here would like give list wars caused led theists this thread seems arguing the validity religious viewpoint according some utilitarian principle atheism religion wrong because causes death the underlying moral that death wrong this rather arbitrary measure validity get some epistemology richard harlequin com internet richard harlequin internet rptb cambridge phoenix janet zen buddhist
alt.atheism	radical agnostic not reply zazen austin ibm com welbon there means that can possibly think prove beyond doubt that god does not exist but anyone has one all means tell what therefore lacking this ability absolute proof being atheist becomes act faith and itself and this cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need say more harbor beliefs all there good evidence for god existing not some folks call this agnosticism does not suffer from blind faith all think don worry happy for many atheists the lack belief gods secondary epistemological consideration what accept reliable way knowing there are known valid logical arguments for the existence gods nor there any empirical evidence that they exist most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea god one that must accepted faith faith belief without sound logical basis empirical evidence reliable way knowing there probably nothing else most people would accept the absence any possibility proof even when agree take someone elses word faith just mean that having found this person reliable the past judge him likely reliable source now find faith less reliable than logic and empirical evidence everywhere else why assume will provide reliable knowledge about gods the difference between the atheist and the theist fundamentally then one whether not faith held reliable way knowing rather than some agnostic posters would have whether ones faith gods gods the theist believes that faith acceptable basis for belief gods even rejects faith reliable other times for example his work scientist the atheist believes that only logic and empirical evidence lead reliable knowledge agnosticism seems less defensible position than theism atheism unless one sceptic regards all other knowledge without evidence why should believe gods rather than santa claus the easter bunny would also like point out others have that the atheist doesn require absolute knowledge the lack gods don believe that there any such thing absolute knowledge atheism the best and simplest theory fit the lack facts and should held until contrary evidence found david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	keith ignorant seems mam mouse cmhnet org mike mcangus writes everything wouldn but would start now wait the religious organizations were longer tax exempt what other beef could you have they would then have much right lobby would any other group you asked would everything okay answered everything encompasses more than just the tax exempt status religious organizations well everything wouldn okay then tell what that wouldn okay that religions were longer tax exempt then what would wrong with their lobbying otherwise attempting influence politics keith
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster mam mouse cmhnet org mike mcangus writes let see understand what you are saying order talk knowledgeably about religion atheists must first have been immersed religion that only the rare individual could have left you don understand said that don think people can discuss the subjective merits religion objectively this should obvious people here have said that everyone would better off without religion but this almost certainly isn true but really are you threatened the motto the people that use the motto tool let try take away the tool but guns and axes are tools both which have been used for murder should both taken away that say don think motto misuse warrants its removal least not this case keith
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes somewhat agree with however what comes theist religion different matter that because religion like drug once use very difficult get out that because order experience religion necessarily have have blind faith and once have the blind faith very diffcult for you reason yourself back atheism again therefore unreasonable ask people try religion order judge like asking people try dying find out what death like well now can judge death until are dead right why should judge religion without having experienced people have said that religion bad any account and that way useful etc but don totally agree with this course cannot really say how the religious folk would act had they not been exposed religion but some people least seemed helped some ways basically can not judge whether religion the right route for given individual even for general population can say that not best for personally least you can choose not use religion might hard try find out its benefits you state above keith
alt.atheism	political atheists mmwang adobe com michael wang writes was looking for rigorous definition because otherwise would spending the rest our lives arguing what christian really believes don think need argue about this you think that the motto points out that this country proud its freedom religion and that this something that distinguishes from many other countries well your opinion not shared most people gather perhaps not but that because those seeking make government recognize christianity the dominant religion this country not think they are infringing the rights others who not share their beliefs yes but also many people who are not trying make government recognize christianity the dominant religion this country think the motto infringes upon the rights others who not share their beliefs and actually think that the government already does recognize that christianity the dominant religion this country mean don you realize recognize this this isn say that are supposed believe the teachings christianity just that most people like said before personally don think the motto major concern you agree with then what are discussing since most people don seem associate christmas with jesus much anymore don see what the problem can you prove your assertion that most people the don associate christmas with jesus anymore but hear quite bit about christmas and little anything about jesus wouldn this figure more prominent the holiday were really associated high degree with him are you saying that the association with jesus personal level and that everyone thinks about but just never talks about that can you prove that most people associate christmas most importantly with jesus anyways the point again that there are people who associate christmas with jesus doesn matter these people are majority not think the numbers matter takes majority least majority those power discriminate doesn keith
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the probability that the automobile system will kill someone innocent accident goes asymptotically close just like the court system however anyone who doesn like the automobile system can opt out have this isn true many people are forced use the automobile system certainly don use choice there were other ways getting around secondly try make the automobile system safe possible because recognize the danger the innocent whereas the the current example not trying make the court system safer which could fairly easily replacing fatal punishments with non fatal punishments but think that the court system has been refined over hundreds years the britain and other countries have tried make fair possible can made better without removing the death penalty besides life imprisonment sounds like fatal punishment keith
alt.atheism	political atheists dace shrike und roy dace writes keith allan schneider keith cco caltech edu wrote some soldiers are dependent religion for number purposes and some are doubt dependent cocaine yet don see the military paying for coca fields while religion certainly has some benefits combat situation what are the benefits cocaine keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass mvs psuvm psu edu writes many people would probably think especially the fanatics propogandized this that this was conflict between the atheists and the religious many would get the impression that were trying outlaw religion contintue try remove all things with religious reference that not what the people asked think perhaps you would right you said the fundamentalists would think this way after all they think they are being oppressed when they are not allowed oppress however you have not shown where you get this idea that many people would probably think atheism religion winner take all far can tell your groundless prediction that this will happen but you haven taken into the account propoganda remember you asked germans before wwii the jews shoudl slaughtered they would probably answer but after the propoganda machine rolled through least some were able tolerate you see only takes small group fanatics whip general frenzy the propoganda machines have been gear over number issues including abortion and gays look some the things that have happened well far they have passed one amendment which currently under intense scrutiny and they have failed outlaw abortion which their prime goal that issue yep they seem sooo effective sure well they haven managed outlaw abortion due the possible objectivity the courts but they have managed create quite few problems for people that wanted have abortion they could create similar problems for and could worse they can try stop abortions blocking clinics etc but imagine what they have stop atheism besides the margin error very large when you only talk two people better than your one that your opinion also have branched out and the informal survey over half dozen now and what have they said were you questions unbiased keith you would claim that questions are biased the minute posted them because the answers agreed with everyone have asked about the possible removal the motto the christian portion has expressed regret about its loss because they like however when pointed out them that new motto will not the works none have expressed the desire rape murder pillage etc which you have basically claimed you are able convince them individually but could you convince whole room them whole nation for the atheist portion know some around here they have all expressed disgust with the motto some noted being harassed christians who used the motto try seem justified and all would see gone yes glad were gone never supported however think that minor problem that can easily ignored contrasted with what could happen what may likely which christians designed the motto does the motto say anything about jesus why you think that refers only christians christians wrote christians think that their religion right and all others are wrong therefore why would they include other religions the realm being correct doubt that any other religions were meant included well not clear the religious convictions francis scott key the motto can attributed him but least clear that believed god and surely there are few christians that think you say but don think that most you think that all christians actively despise other religions most that have met haven and don christian that have queried thinks means anything but them and only them why not ask some people other faiths sorry would but christianity just awfully popular around here suppose you could ask few people well have asked hindu moselem and few jews and all them think that applicable them course can say that these people just some that know pretty well are accurate representations their faiths always good idea assume that there were dissenting views any given issue you are assuming that all the views were the same and nothing leads this conclusion without evidence the contrary doubt that there were dissenting opinions you claim there were provide some evidence for your assertion well really like and tried but really don know where get access congressional records from the can anyone help out here comparing christians nazis interesting only the sense that neither can probably convinced change their beliefs again the motto the money doesn cost you anything extra however you abolished the motto all have pay have all the dies and plates redone like people paid before get them changed have the motto them you now need show that there good reason change everything again also doubt that they use same plates for more than year printing this would make easy remove the motto simply make next year plates without your claim evidently that they will have pay extra somewhere provide some evidence for this assertion are you saying that they redesign the plates each year anyway your whole argument conveniently deleted see was that the motto somehow costs all lot money this just not correct the ones read didn mention anything about jesus think the issue was concerning the distinction between religion and not how could between religious and not religious the motto refers god religious motto the question whether not only christian you say more doubt this provide some evidence for this assertion that say the religion this country and the non religion the ussr that was what most those quotes were about and some included all atheists general well don think that any the quotes although seem have lost them mentioned anything all about jesus they advocated religion over non religion specific religion was not mentioned you have missed this point said that the motto didn say anything about anyone particular that the motto doesn imply anything about your particular beliefs doesn say that everyone trusts some form god only that the nation the whole does have been through this before obvious does not include this much beyond doubt your claim again that the motto refers more than christians based the facts that christianity says all other religions are wrong and because seems that the motto was written christians doubt your claim you are saying that all christians must believe that all other religions should outlawed just because they think they are wrong that silly think the flat earthers are wrong but don advocate their banishment based this idea doubt that any additional expense would even incurred removing the motto provide some evidence for your claim that would think that any such cost would insignificant mentioned the slight cost because you said that the motto was costing lot money being our currency disregarding the digression the other motto used for harassment and other purpose has been found for why should not removed well mottos general don really have purposes don think should removed because think the benefit would outweighed the consequences and you know what the vote was were there other opinions you think that the main reason the motto was required law was bother atheists you think that this what the majority congress the time had mind you then show why again the opinion the people who put there that concerned with then you should concerned with the opinion the entire congress again not necessary that the complete majority shared the purpose confronting godless communism with this motto why not the majority that put there the general public probably does not know about the anti atheist intent few people the either daresay more people remember the than the time when key wrote the anthem but they remember the debate surrounding the motto they remember that some people intended message against atheists why don you include this your little survey that you were conducting you claim here that scientists would believe someone claims doubt this provide evidence for your assertion what should ask some scientists the probability that something einstein said about relativity worthy mean einstein said there good chance that was right least the time for the courts the method scientists use can applied need not agree with the court default because good record you need not agree with them all the time but you would certainly think that their decisions would good evidence favor some point what but you said you didn agree with the court because they allowed congress attempt make amendment prohibiting flag burning you don realize that something like this external the realm the court power then how can confident that you know anything about the court powers mean you don know how the court works how can you participate discussion the court judge can speak before congress and still you ignore the abortion gag rule you make your claims abortion think that would clearly inappropriate for supreme court justice testify before congress during the consideration constitutional amendment and order for the court rule something case usually must presented mushrooms flowers trees buildings signs whatever the analogy the same just because something that might find offensive present doesn mean that rights are being violated are talking about something put there people keith not mushroom one caused that mushroom exist unless you finding things offensive mushroom farm yes some mushrooms can planted and don appreciate mushrooms pizza either this not the case with the motto and you ignoring the harassment which the only known result the motto and you ignoring that somewhere along the line people were forced put the motto there who was forced put the motto there what you mean keith
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses suopanki stekt oulu writes apr mst jbrown batman bmd trw com said god eternal jesus god therefore jesus eternal this works both logically and mathematically god the set things which are eternal jesus subset god therefore jesus belongs the set things which are eternal everything isn always logical mercedes car that girl mercedes therefore that girl car unfortunately your phrasing ambiguous writing more carefully have least two possibilities the first things called mercedes are cars that girl called mercedes therefore that girl car that entirely valid piece logical deduction not sound because the first statement false similarly would hold that jim example valid but not sound another possible interpretation what you wrote there exists least one car called mercedes that girl called mercedes therefore that girl car which isn valid mathew
alt.atheism	political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis writes perhaps shouldn imprision people could watch them closely instead the cost would probably similar especially just implanted some sort electronic device why wait until they commit the crime why not implant such devices potential criminals like communists and atheists sorry don follow your reasoning you are proposing punish people before they commit crime what justification you have for this look irony keith mathew
alt.atheism	political atheists keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes mathew mathew mantis writes for rape surely there the burden guilt solely the rapist not you are thrown into cage with tiger and get mauled you blame the tiger far know tigers are not sentient were pushed into pool with some dolphins and they attacked might inclined blame the dolphins rather than the person doing the pushing dolphins are not usually aggressive and they seem have well developed brains and capacity for abstract thought matter fact tigers rarely attack humans unless the human provokes them course they are cage which far too small that might count provocation mathew
alt.atheism	political atheists kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes almost sure that zyklon immediate and painless method death not insert soem other form and ethnic and minority groups have been killed mutilated and exterminated through out history guess was not unusual you would agree that the holocost would allowed under the constitution far the punishment doubt they recieved what would considered fair trial standards don sure look what happened japanese citizens the during world war you prepared say let round these people and stick them concentration camp without trial only short step gassing them without trial after all seems that the nazis originally only intended imprison the jews the final solution was dreamt partly because they couldn afford run the camps because the devastation caused goering total war those who weren gassed generally died malnutrition disease mathew
alt.atheism	atheist dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article mantis tony lezard tony mantis writes deletion opinion that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for comfortable with any strong atheists out there care comment humans just come with the idea spiritual parent one the artifacts human thought the evidence for that quite overwhelming and the information content the conceived vanishing other words there were gods they would hardly make sense and possible explain the phenomenon religion without gods the concept useless and don have introduce new assumptions order show that leap faith required for your mileage may vary yes fully agree with that but don believe gods exist believe gods exist mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka pointed out all hinges what you take the word believe mean unfortunately this bound the definitions strong and weak atheism least according the faq atheism characterized absence belief the existence god some atheists further and believe that god does not exist the former often referred the weak atheist position and the latter strong atheism important note the difference between these two positions weak atheism simple scepticism disbelief the existence god strong atheism positive belief that god does not exist please not fall into the trap assuming that all atheists are strong atheists from mathew introduction atheism version last modified apr should the faq clarified try pin down this notion belief can tony lezard tony mantis tony mantis uknet things like tony mantis nsfnet relay last resort arl phx cam pgp public key available request
alt.atheism	political atheists mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes think you mean circular not recursive but that semantics recursiveness has problems just horribly inefficient just ask any assembly programmer tail recursive functions scheme are least efficient iterative loops anyone who doesn program assembler will have heard optimizing compilers mathew
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam edu jaeger buphy edu writes deletia don understand the point this petty sarcasm basic principle islam that one born muslim one says testify that there god but god and mohammad prophet god that long one does not explicitly reject islam word then one must considered muslim all muslims the phenomenon you attempting make into general rule psychology direct odds with basic islamic principles you want attack islam you could better than than argue against something that islam explicitly contradicts the deletions somewhere mentioned something about chopping off hands being punishment for theft saudi arabia assuming this wouldn know and assuming done people fitting your requirement for muslim which find highly likely then would you please try convince bobby mozumder that muslims chop people hands off come back when you succeeded disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	fundamental contradiction was visit from jws jbrown batman bmd trw com writes will self determination other words god created conscious beings who have the ability choose between moral choices independently god all will therefore free will the above probably not the most representative paragraph but thought hop anyway what strikes self contradicting the fable lucifer fall which the way seem recall more speculation than based biblical text but rcism may showing that benedikt pointed out lucifer had perfect nature yet had the free will choose evil but where did that choice come from know from genesis that eve was offered opportunity sin tempter which many assume was satan but how did lucifer discover invent create call the action what you will something that god had not given origin also where the bible there mention lucifer free will make big fuss about mankind having free will but strikes being after the fact rationalisation and fact like salvation not one that all christians believe identically least mind salvation and free will are very tightly coupled but then theology was roman catholic still how theologian explain lucifer fall lucifer had perfect nature did man how could fall how could execute act that contradicted his nature and effect cause evil exist for the first time lucio lucio proxima alt tab stops four
alt.atheism	atheist tony lezard tony mantis writes opinion that the strong atheist position requires too much belief for comfortable with any strong atheists out there care comment far can tell strong atheists are far outnumbered alt atheism weak atheists the cost repudiating the faq think too much made the strong weak atheism issue although the context alt atheism where continually attacked the basis that strong atheists believe the non existence god think the separation valid one cover arse what trying say that there infinitely grey area between weak and strong well between strong and the unattainable mathematical atheism wish whereas logically can only support the weak atheist position effect strong atheist and wish could mathematical one justify strong atheist position believe need only show that the evidence presented favour any the gods under scrutiny faulty read the faq correctly argument for the existence god generic represented mainstream theologians has ever been found unassailable this adequate evidence that the real god undefinable least definition has yet been found watertight which turn accept sufficient base disbelief each and every conceivable god little fuzzy the edges though opinions are welcome but perhaps should change the thread subject lucio lucio proxima alt tab stops four
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes why would the rushdie case particularly legitimate said elsewhere this issue rushdie actions had effects islamic countries that not simple say that didn commit crime islamic country actually simple person has committed crime country was within the borders the time when was committed doesn matter the physical manifestation outside for instance hack into nasa ames research lab and delete all their files have committed crime the united kingdom the authorities wish prosecute under law rather than law they have automatic right this why the net authorities the tried put pressure some sites holland holland had anti cracking legislation and was viewed hacker haven some system administrators similarly company called red hot television broadcasting pornographic material which can received britain they were broadcasting britain they would committing crime but they are not they are broadcasting from denmark the british government powerless anything about spite the apparent law breaking course not lawyer could wrong more confusingly could right some countries but not others mathew
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes cases prostitution both the man and the prostitute would punished public quite severely deletion gregg you cannot say lenient and punishes severely public unless course one the exceptions implied almost all matters that depends the statistics and who punished public some power for example nothing islamic about allows men rape women five times before blowing the rapist head off public then call that leniency wouldn you you have given that example not lenient end argument and chopping off the hands heads people not lenient either rather appears that you are internalized the claims about the legal system without checking they suit the description and wasn the argument that takes five men rape woman according islamic law while don approve think both the prostitute and the customer have the right what they other words punishing them violation their rights and punish them severely public just another pointer the hysteria connected with sexuality many religions believe what you like even believe what don like can you give better answers than that have you got any evidence for your probably opposite claims this case don see why should accept the complex ridden views oriental goatherd yes forget that the west historically much without sexual neurosis oriental goatherd really intellectual fact memory serves and most will see the connection between the primitive machism the orient and islam people agree having sex fine and would assume that god would have clue what the detrimental effects supressing are huh ever heard aids course you probably say that god must evil because allows the disease exist bla bla usually you miss the point aids neither spread only through sex nor necessarily spread having sex futher the point very important point the urge for sex stronger than the fear aids even stronger than the religious attempts channel forbid sex the consequences suppressing sex are worse than the consequences aids please note that the idea that everybody would end with aids when sex not controlled completely counterfactual and since you have brought the point your god evil not benedikt
alt.atheism	biblical rape article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes didn have time read the rest the posting but had respond this absolutely not messianic jew another mistake sorry should have read alt messianic more carefully benedikt
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr midway uchicago edu shou midway uchicago edu writes article dhinn dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes bigots never concede that their bigotry irrational other people who determine that examining their arguments expected you set yourself wonderful little world where bigot whomever you say this very comfortable for you imagine never having entertain argument against your belief system simply accuse the person making being bigot well this particular thread vituperation slopped its venom over into alt atheism where spend most our time entertaining arguments against our belief system without resorting accusing others bigotry somewhat ironic that our exposure bigotry happens this instance have originated rec scouting since always understood scouting teach tolerance and diversity understand bigotry irrational prejudice against other people who happen different race religion ethnic background sex other inconsequential characteristics all the evidence seen indicates that sexual orientation and lack belief gods are exactly such inconsequential characteristics thus pending further evidence conclude that those who show prejudice against such people are bigots and organizations that exclude such people are discriminatory jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article tinn senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes deletion will argue that your latter statement believe that gods exist does rest upon faith that you are making positive statement that gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying don know and therefore don believe them and don not believe then weak atheism once again not believe god different than saying believe that god does not exist still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith the way usually used view you are saying here that driving car requires faith that the car drives for conclusion and have more faith than have the premises and the argument used but first let say the following might have language problem here regards faith and existence christian maintain that god does not exist exist means have being space and time god does not have being god being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist eternal with this said feel rather pointless debate the called existence god and that not what doing here believe that god the source and ground being when you say that god does not exist also accept this statement but obviously mean two different things however what follows will use the phrase the existence god usual sense and this the sense that think you are using would like clarification upon what you mean the existence god that word game the term god used different way usually when you use different definition your thing but until commonly accepted you would have say the way define god and that does not exist existence itself say does not exist interestingly there are those who say that existence exists one the indubitable statements possible further saying god existence either waste time existence already used and there need replace god you are implying more with which case your definition and your argument far are incomplete making fallacy deletion one can never prove that god does does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this opinion based upon observation will have ask what observtions are you refering there are observations pro con that are valid here establishing positive belief deletion where does that follow aren observations based the assumption that something exists and wouldn you say there level definition that the assumption god meaningful not would reject that concept anyway where your evidence for that god meaningful some level benedikt
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape this frayed thread has turned into patented alt atheism ping pong game and don have any strong disagreement try stick the one thing don quite follow about the argument seems that there contradiction arguing that the bible was enlightened for its times closer what would consider morally good based our standards and past experience the one hand hope this summarizes this argument adequately and the other hand article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes article phpe inn dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes disclaimer speaking from the jewish perspective where the bible means what many call the old testament and where the interpretation not necessarily the raw text but instead the court cases commentaries and traditions passed down through jewish communities this seems the crux you judge the bible according long line traditions and interpretations coming down the current day rather than its own merits cultural artifact then course will correspond more closely with more contemporary values but that how the bible actually being used today shouldn that how should judge most people use scissors cut paper shouldn consumer reports test scissors for paper cutting ability even though scissors may have been designed originally cut cloth that possibly good way judge the use the bible teaching jewish morality today but hardly seems fair claim that this highly interpreted version what was enlightened for its times attempt extend the analogy this like saying that the original scissor makers were unusually advanced paper cutting for their times even though they only ever cut cloth and had never even heard paper not arguing that the bible disgusting though some the history depicted modern standards however history full similar abuses and don think the biblical accounts are worse than their contemporaries possibly ours the other hand don know any reason think the history described the bible shows less abuse than their contemporaries ours that complex and benign moral traditions have evolved based particular mythic interpretations that history interesting but still don think fair take that long tradition interpretation and use attack condemnation the original history jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	political atheists mathew mathew mantis writes for rape surely there the burden guilt solely the rapist unless you force someone live with the rapist against his will which case part the responsibility yours sorry but can accept that unless the rapist was hypnotized something view him solely responsible for his actions not necessarily especially the rapist known such for instance you intentionally stick your finger into loaded mousetrap and get snapped whose fault keith
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised study and you will get point bobby you priceless did ever tell you that policy with bobby posts should anyone give damn flick through the thread high speed searching for posts bobby which have generated whole pile followups then and extract the hilarious quote inevitably present for sig purposes works for for the guy who said just arrived and asked whether bobby for real you betcha welcome alt atheism and rest assured that gets worse have few pearls wisdom from bobby which reproduce below anyone keith keeping big file such stuff allah infinite wisdom the universe was created from nothing just saying and became therefore allah exists bobby mozumder proving the existence allah wait you just said that humans are rarely reasonable doesn that contradict atheism where everything explained through logic and reason this the contradiction atheism that proves false bobby mozumder proving the existence allah plus the believer would contradictory the quran for allah not exist bobby mozumder proving the existence allah and now one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men compare that with how homos are raised study and you will get point bobby mozumder being islamically rigorous alt atheism mmmmm quality and quantity from the new voice islam pbuh cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick department computer science tel university warwick fax coventry
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr cbnewsl att com stank cbnewsl att com stan krieger writes the point has been raised and has been answered roger and have clearly stated our support the bsa position the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes violation the scout oath specifically the promise live morally straight please define morally straight and don even try saying that straight used here implies only hetersexual behavior straight the slang word opposite gay this alot like family values everyone talking about them but misteriously one knows what they are one thing that relates among navy men that get tatoos that say mom because the love their mom makes for more virile men bobby mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu april the one true muslim left the world
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article apr cbnewsl att com stank cbnewsl att com stan krieger writes roger and have clearly stated our support the bsa position the issue specifically that homosexual behavior constitutes violation the scout oath specifically the promise live morally straight there really nothing else discuss apparently not response his claim that terrifies gay people not able indoctrinate children our lifestyle words that effect sent roger very calm carefully written detailed letter explaining simply why the bsa policy does indeed terrify did not use inflammatory language and left myself extremely open for answer thus far have not received answer can conclude only that roger considers his position either indefensible simply not worth defending trying cloud the issue with comparisons blacks other minorities also meaningless because like comparing apples oranges people can control their race but they can control their behavior fact that exactly the point people can control their behavior because that fact there need for blanket ban homosexuals what else there possibly discuss rec scouting this issue you tell tim pierce usted tele madre twpierce unix amherst edu del asesino que graciosa bitnet twpierce amherst pedro almodovar
alt.atheism	biblical rape article apr watson ibm com strom watson ibm com rob strom writes deletion the thread biblical rape was initiated david hunt here his posting article feu xsf kpc andrew cmu edu david hunt bluelobster cmu edu writes pretty sure seen biblical rules for when allowable rape prisoners what the codes are about that etc could some more knowledgable soul than please let know some references asked very narrow question and gave very narrow answer yes sorry have got that wrong apology deletion david hunt post didn mention god nor did response you were the first bring the idea the bible being given god most jews don believe this any literal sense fun but must have met the minority then and given god refers any action whereby god god causes better effects something rob not intimate with jewish theology but understand that you are messianic jew correct wrong but appears that the views messianic jews metaphysics different that the majority jews while jewish theology overall quite distinct from the christianic god views have heard that possible for jews attribute evil their god for christians the bible still seen effect the interaction some god with man deletion thought agreed that though jews disagree there are set core beliefs that they agree upon one which that the commandments are accessible and written the language the time and another which that there must legal system update them the context was metaphysics even when the process adapting the commandments not transcendent the justification the process lie metaphysic specualtion wonder how you break out the shackles having metaphysics your system deletion could you explain this with respect the original commandments being discussed that the commandment that says you feel like raping woman prisoner you should instead wait and marry her what about the way this commandment given invalidates book that commands commit genocide among other reprehensible deeds the context repulsive and foul play imo invoke some relatively enlightened passages example for the content the whole book big deletion the point that see that there necessary connection between the theology you use and the interpretation the bible only very loosely interpretation the bible based long tradition jewish scholars interpreting the bible theology doesn really enter into there are jewish atheists who interpret the laws charity essentially the same way not the interpretation some laws but the interpretation the bible the example that sodom and gomorrha mean argue with god the whole idea that metaphorically and yet allows you argue with god whatever that means that alone theo logic question proof theology used you pose another metaphysical riddle you well you wrote this fine have some major spirit with neither absolute power nor absolute knowledge and appears limited means will communicate with some form spiritual big friend you admit that using god this context somewhat unusual right the assumption that cannot have created the universe well and that the passages the bible referring that its omnipotence are crap that what meant the riddle important question the light what for instance the passage witrh sodom and gomorrha means either there some connection between the text the fact that exists and your interpretation purely arbitrary further the question why has one carry the burden biblical texts when one could simply write other books that convey the message better you might answer that one can becuase some peculiar biblical information might lost but that holds true every other book and the question remains why has the bible still special place can replaced somehow bargain the dangerous content the bible against some other message that included well deletion you see the danger doing especially with the metaphers used the bible think the danger doing less than either the danger having frozen system laws having laws sorry but there are worse systems does not say anything about one could not have better system deletion read two stories about the importance helping the poor and one god spirit and the other god has body which more important helping the poor resolving the contradiction about the corporeal nature god read two stories the bible one that god commands people kill children for being idolaters and another where god kills children directly what more important resolve the message that children are killed has done god and the argument you have given fallacy while may not important the context you have given find out god corporeal not can crucial other questions religious believers resolve contradictions with that they choose one the possibilities given arbitrary way and have the advantage being able attribute their decision some god one cannot resolve questions the statement what good when what good depends the question benedikt
alt.atheism	atheist article epvk mantis tony lezard tony mantis writes deletion other words there were gods they would hardly make sense and possible explain the phenomenon religion without gods the concept useless and don have introduce new assumptions order show that yes fully agree with that but don believe gods exist believe gods exist mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka pointed out all hinges what you take the word believe mean for believe gods exist and don believe gods exist other words think that statements like gods are somehow interfere with this world are false meaningless ontology one can fairly conclude that when exist meaningless does not exist under the pragmatic definition truth exists meaningless makes exist even logically false problem with such statements that one can disprove subjective god definition and there might cases where subjective god would even make sense the trouble with most god definitions that they include some form objective existence with the consequence the gods affecting all believers derive from right interfere with the life others deletion should the faq clarified try pin down this notion belief can honestly don see the problem benedikt
alt.atheism	why sex only allowed marriage rationality was islamic marriage mar ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes case that everything wrong the world will end people start believing islam and that horrors mankind are all caused the lack belief atheism for the last time bobby lack belief your god does not imply atheism just because some moslems aren moral does not mean they don believe god named allah although their allah may not the things your allah does moslem says she believes that god exists she theist though maybe not true follower islam murder victims year caused atheism poverty massive hate crimes such low respect for the human body distrust among people everything wrong all caused atheism peace jerk bobby mozumder sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	motto mania mathew writes prefer mark jason dominus suggestion that the motto should changed mind your own fucking business this era aids isn someone fucking everyone interest semi propose have motto recently the glorious state maryland the only state whose state song refers abraham lincoln tyrant people have gotten all wound over the state motto which inherited from the calverts fatti maschii parole femine which you read italian says manly deeds womanly words something that effect the state which not long ago had four women out seven representatives this represents problem the official solution was change the translation now means strong deeds gentle words personal suggestion was changing walk softly and carry big stick wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses good grief the amount energy being spent one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position reason this group wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	benediktine metaphysics benedikt rosenau writes with great authority contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct this things defined contradictory language not exist will object definitions reality you then amend things described contradictory language not exist then come something which plainly false failures description are merely failures description not objectivist remember wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	gospel dating then you require the same amount evidence believe that own pair bluejeans and have superhuman powers well could use the argument that some here use about nature and claim that you cannot have superhuman powers because you are human superhuman powers are beyond what human has and since you are human any powers you have are not beyond those human hence you cannot have superhuman powers sound good you anyway the evidence question depends the context this group since you are posting from american college site willing take given that you have pair blue jeans and assuming there some coherency your position will take given that you not have superhuman powers arguments are evidence themselves some respects when you say the existence sic jesus assume that you mean just the man without any special powers etc yep many will agree that very possible that man called jesus did fact live fact willing agree that there was some man named jesus have reason believe that there wasn ever man good however most the claims are extradinary virgin birth virgin the sense not having any sexual intercourse resurection son god etc those claims require extra evidence extra evidence why don start with evidence all cannot see any evidence for the which the cynics this group would ever accept for the second the foundation the religion anyone who claims have seen the risen jesus back the day period believer and therefore discounted those this group since these are all ancients anyway one again choose dismiss the whole thing the third much metaphysical relationship anything else even those who agree have argued length over what means again don see how evidence possible thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim statement that the speaker will not accept any evidence the matter wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	remarkable admission jon livesey writes certainly not going attempt distinguish between different flavours christian all loudly claiming the one true christian well obvious that you don attempt otherwise you would aware that they don all loudly claim the one true christian tried avoid using the phrase not christian because these ownership issues instead tried the phrase nicene christianity attempt identify the vast majority christianity which has roughly similar viewpoints the core theological issues the jws not fall within this group and fact espouse position known arianism which rejected all the nicene churches and virtually everyone else well wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	gospel dating benedikt rosenau writes the argument goes follows oid quotes appear john but not the almost codified way they were matthew luke however they are considered similar enough point knowledge such and not entirely different source assuming you are presenting accurately don see how this argument really leads any firm conclusion the material john not sure exactly what referred here but take for granted the similarity the matt luke material different hence one could have almost any relationship between the two right john getting straight from jesus mouth are talking date texts here not the age the authors the usual explanation for the time order mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages says matthew has read the text mark and luke that matthew and probably that mark the version the usual theory have heard has matthew and luke independently relying mark and one would think that luke relied matthew wouldn have the grating inconsistencies the geneologies for one thing assumed that john knew the content luke text the evidence for that not overwhelming admittedly this the part that particularly new were possible that you could point reference grateful unfortunately haven got the info hand was think the late early and was possibly old when they are from about why they shed doubt the order putting john after the rest the three because closes the gap between supposed writing and the existing copy quit bit the further away from the original the more copies can written and therefore survival becomes more probable and don think one step removed source that bad luke and mark and matthew learned their stories directly from diciples then really cannot believe the sort big transformation from jesus gospel that some people posit news reports one generally gets better information than this and john diciple then there nothing more said that john was disciple not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used counterargument not really impressed with the theology argument but really pointing this out and pointed out earlier one cannot make these arguments about peter see reason not accept authentic letter one step and one generation removed bad even our times compare that reports similar events our century almost illiterate societies the best analogy would reporters talking the participants which not bad other words one does not know what the original mark did look like and arguments based mark are pretty weak but the statement divinity not that section and any case agreed that the most important epistles predate mark wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	yeah right benedikt rosenau writes and what about that revelation thing charley you talking about this intellectual engagement revelation well obviously risk one takes many people say that the concept metaphysical and religious knowledge contradictive not objectivist not particularly impressed with problems conceptualization the problem this case least bad that trying explain quantum mechanics and relativity the terms ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language from the perspective ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective what being described rather inexact charitable analogous situation supposedly obtains metaphysics the problem that the better descriptive language not available and case holds reliable information can you show how you establish that this word reliable essentially meaningless the context unless you can show how reliability can determined wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	radical agnostic not article apr cnsvax uwec edu nyeda cnsvax uwec edu david nye wrote reply zazen austin ibm com welbon there means that can possibly think prove beyond doubt that god does not exist but anyone has one all means tell what therefore lacking this ability absolute proof being atheist becomes act faith and itself and this cannot accept accept nothing blind faith invisible pink flying unicorns need say more harbor beliefs all there good evidence for god existing not some folks call this agnosticism does not suffer from blind faith all think don worry happy for many atheists the lack belief gods secondary epistemological consideration what accept reliable way knowing there are known valid logical arguments for the existence gods nor there any empirical evidence that they exist most philosophers and theologians agree that the idea god one that must accepted faith faith belief without sound logical basis empirical evidence reliable way knowing could you expand your definition knowing seems bit monolithic here but not sure that you intend that don need for example distinguish between knowing plus equals apples plus apples equals apples the french knowing that jerry lewis auteur and what means say know what socrates said this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell like this epigraph perhaps the issue learning which any absurdities merit further exploration gene
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes personal objection that find capital punishment cruel and unusual punishment under all circumstances can painless isn cruel and has occurred frequently since the dawn time hardly unusual don take issue with the numbers single innocent life taken one too many but innocents die due many causes why have you singled out accidental false execution the one take issue with keith
alt.atheism	yeah right article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes for several years periodically asked charley wingate explain this mythical alternative rationality which propounds enthusiastically when pops every few months his reluctance explain indicates that not hot said enough times that there alternative that should think you might have caught now and there alternative but the point rationality isn alternative either the problems metaphysical and religious knowledge are unsolvable should say humans cannot solve them there truly alternative then you have basis whatsoever for your claim the usual line here which you call prejudgment atheism and dispute that reason all have here you admit that you have alternative possible basis for the claim that there anything other than reason that reason inapplicable religious knowledge except possibly that reason conflicts with religious knowledge this sounds very much like can provide rational defense for belief but prefer discard rationality rather than accept that may false hope makes you happy but your repeated and unfounded assertions this effect don advance your cause jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	yeah right article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes benedikt rosenau writes and what about that revelation thing charley you talking about this intellectual engagement revelation well obviously risk one takes now here the core question let suggest scenario will grant that god exists and uses revelation communicate with humans said revelation taking the form paraphrased from your own words this infinitely powerful deity grabs some poor schmuck makes him take dictation and then hides away for few hundred years now there exists human who has not personally experienced revelation this person observes that not only these revelations seem contain elements that contradict rather strongly aspects the observed world which all this person has ever seen but there are many mutually contradictory claims revelation now based this can this person blamed for concluding absent personal revelation their own that there almost certainly nothing this revelation thing not objectivist not particularly impressed with problems conceptualization the problem this case least bad that trying explain quantum mechanics and relativity the terms ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language from the perspective ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective what being described rather inexact charitable analogous situation supposedly obtains metaphysics the problem that the better descriptive language not available absent this better language and absent observations support the claims revelation can one blamed for doubting the whole thing here what driving have thought long time about this have come the honest conclusion that there deity nothing like the ones proposed any religion that familiar with now there does happen say christian god will held accountable for such honest mistake sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest are going the stars robert heinlein
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals pkqe inn lynx unm edu cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes deleted get the point therefore nutshell opinion that pre marital sex makes the likelihood extra marital sex more probable furthermore opinion extra marital sex helps break down partnerships and leads greater divorce rates this turn opinion creates trauma and less stable environment for children who are then opinion more likely grow with psychological problems such depression etc and thus sex outside marriage the long run harmful society think that you are drawing links where there are none having sex before marriage has nothing with adultery once committed into marriage the issue see more how committed you are not foisting pain your spouse and how confident you are about yourself addition what someone does within their marriage their own business not mine and not yours have witnessed strong relationships that incorporate extra marital sex would agree with your assertion about children children should not witness such confusing relationships adultery stressful adults which assume general how can expect children understand where the evidence for opinions the moment there are just generalities can cite for example read that the century the percentage youth and people general who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing western societies probably what was reading referred particularly the usa similarly one can detect trend towards greater occurrence sex outside marriage this century western societies particularly with the sexual revolution the but even before that think otherwise the sexual revolution the would not have been possible particularly with the gradual weakening christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside marriage propose that these two trends greater level general depression society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being prime cause the former cannot provide any evidence beyond this this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable and request that people ponder upon why more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can just pick your two favorite trends notice correlation them and make sweeping statement generality mean you can and people have but that does not mean that valid reasonable thesis best gross oversimplification the push pull factors people experience argument mainly proposal what think plausible argument against extra marital sex one which personally believe has some truth main purpose for posting here show that plausible argument can made against extra marital sex this stage not saying that this particular viewpoint proven anything like that just that plausible try convince you all this particular point view would probably have lot work researching what has been done this field etc order gather further evidence which simply not have time now also note that said that think extra marital sex prime cause opinion the generally greater levels psychological problems especially depression western societies not saying the prime cause the only cause just prime cause one the significant contributions this trend think when you say you think view simplistic you have forgotten this admit that there are probably other factors but think that extra marital sex and imo subsequent destabilization the family significant factor the rise psychological problems like depression western society this century fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals ednclark kraken ednclark kraken itc edu jeffrey clark writes cfaehl vesta unm edu chris faehl writes why more reasonable than the trend towards obesity and the trend towards depression you can just pick your two favorite trends notice correlation them and make sweeping statement generality mean you can and people have but that does not mean that valid reasonable thesis best gross oversimplification the push pull factors people experience basically the social interactions all the changing factors our society are far too complicated for control just have hold the panic handles and hope that are heading for soft landing but one things for sure depression and the destruction the nuclear family not due solely sex out marriage note that never said that depression and the destruction the nuclear family due solely extra marital sex specifically said that was prime cause this not the prime cause the only cause this recognize that there are probably other factors too but think that extra marital sex and subsequent destabilization the family probably significant factor the rise psychological problems including depression the west the century fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	why sex only allowed marriage rationality was islamic marriage apr proxima alt lucio proxima alt lucio writes darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes point view that the argument all sexism bad just simply does not hold let give you example how about permitting woman temporarily leave her job due pregnancy should that allowed happens sexist gives particular right only women nevertheless despite the fact that sexist completely support such law because think just fred you exasperating sexism like racialism form discrimination using obvious physical cultural differences deny one portion the population the same rights another this context your example above holds water whatsoever there discrimination denying men maternity leave fact quite convinced that were anyone experiment with male pregnancy would possible for such future father take leave medical grounds okay argued this thoroughly about weeks ago men and women are different physically physiologically and psychologically much recent evidence for this statement present the book brainsex anne moir and david jessel recommend you find copy and read their book overview recent scientific research this topic and well referenced now women and men are different some ways the law can only adequately take into account their needs these areas where they are different also taking into account the ways which men and women are different maternity leave example this takes into account that women get pregnant does not give women the same rules would give men because treat women like treats men this instance would unjust this just simply obvious example where men and women are intrinsically different now people make the naive argument that sexism oppression however maternity leave sexist because men not get pregnant men not have the same access leave that women not the same extent degree and therefore sexist matter however much man wants get pregnant and have maternity leave never can and therefore the law sexist man can have access maternity leave matter how hard tries get pregnant hope this clear maternity leave example where sexist law just because the sexism here just reflects the sexism nature making men and women different there are many other differences between men and women which are far more subtle than pregnancy and find out more these recommend you have look the book brainsex your point that perhaps some day men can also pregnant fallacious men can one day become pregnant will having biologically become women have womb and the other factors required for pregnancy usually wrapped the definition what woman your argument when examined seen fallacious you are saying that men can have the sexist maternity leave privilege that women can have they also become women which actually just supports statement that maternity leave sexist the discrimination comes when woman denied opportunities because her legally determined sexual inferiorities understand most religious sexual discrimination and doubt that islam exceptional the female not allowed into the priestly caste and general subjugated that she has aspirations rights which equal human she ought entitled there official priesthood islam much this function taken islamic scholars there are female islamic scholars and female islamic scholars have always existed islam example from early islamic history the prophet widow aisha who was recognized her time and recognized our time islamic scholar matter how sweetly you coat part the role religions seems historically have served the function oppressing the female whether forcing her procreate the extent where there opportunity for self improvement denying her access the same facilities the males are offered you have evidence for your blanket statement about all religions and dispute could and about women islam etc but recently reposted something here under the heading islam and women still your news site suggest you read reposted from soc religion islam has disappeared from alt atheism still might soc religion islam forgot what its original title was though will email you you like the roman catholic church the most blatant the culprit because they actually istitutionalised celibate clergy but the other religious are different let woman attempt escape her role child bearer and the wrath god descends her your statement that other religions are different think statement based simply lack knowledge about religions other than christianity and perhaps judaism accept your affirmation that islam grants women the same rights men when you can show that any muslim woman can aspire the same position say khomeini and there are artificial religious social obstacles her path achieve this aisha who mentioned earlier was not only islamic scholar but also was one stage military leader show the equivalent hillary rhodam clinton within islam and may consider discussing the issue with you the prophet first wife who died just before the hijra the prophet journey from mecca medina was successful businesswoman lucio you cannot make strong case for your viewpoint when your viewpoint based ignorance about world religions fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes there has been some discussion the pros and cons about sex outside marriage personally think that part the value having lasting partnerships between men and women that this helps provide stable and secure environment for children grow deletion addition chris faehl post what about homosexuals well from islamic viewpoint homosexuality not the norm for society cannot really say much about the islamic viewpoint homosexuality not something have done much research fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	benediktine metaphysics article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes benedikt rosenau writes with great authority contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct this things defined contradictory language not exist will object definitions reality you then amend things described contradictory language not exist then come something which plainly false failures description are merely failures description how about this description object that one time both euclidean square and euclidean circle hold that object satisfying this description could exist the description inconsistent and hence describes object that could not exist now suppose someone pointed bicycle and said that object one time both euclidean square and euclidean circle this does not mean that the bicycle does not exist measn that the description was incorrectly applied the atheist says the descriptions god that have been presented with are contradictory and hence describe something that cannot exist now your position far can gather that god exists but the descriptions atheists have been presented with are simply bad descriptions this roughly analogous someone who has never seen bicycle and when they ask for description from people who claim have seen one are told that euclidean circle square can they blamed for doubting rather strongly that this bicycle exists all not objectivist remember kidding sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest are going the stars robert heinlein
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr dcs warwick simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale writes for the guy who said just arrived and asked whether bobby for real you betcha welcome alt atheism and rest assured that gets worse have few pearls wisdom from bobby which reproduce below anyone keith keeping big file such stuff sorry was but somehow have misplaced diskette from the last couple months however thanks the efforts bobby being replenished rather quickly here recent favorite satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses good grief article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes the amount energy being spent one lousy syllogism says volumes for the true position reason this group agree spend too much energy the nonexistance god satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	evo homosexuality was princeton etc sorry bill had clear this there may good evolutionary arguments against homosexuality but these don qualify article vwn darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes wainwright eczcaw mips nott wrote deletions would seem odd homosexuality had any evolutionary function deletions every time man has sex with woman they intend produce children hmm wonder the world overpopulated obviously you keep the monty python song every sperm sacred and you say has purpose means limit population growth then your own arguement natural consider the context talking about evolutionary function one the most basic requirements evolution that members species procreate those who don have purpose that context guess all those social insects ants bees etc which have one breeding queen and whole passel sterile workers are the way out huh these days just ain true people can decide whether not have children and when soon they will able choose sex but that another arguement more lifestyle decision again your arguement since homosexuals can not choose not reproduce they must akin people who decide have sex but not children both are unnatural each other yet another non sequitur sex evolutionary function that exists for procreation that also recreation incidental that homosexuals don procreate means that sex only recreation and nothing more they serve evolutionary purpose refer you the bonobos species primate closeley related humans chimpanzees that very closely they have sex all the time homosexual well heterosexual when the group finds food they have sex before the sleep night they have sex after they escape from fight off prdators they have sex sex serves very important social function above and beyond reproduction this species species closely related humans there some indication that sex performs social function humans well but even not this shows that such function not impossible sincerely ray ingles ingles engin umich edu the meek can have the earth the rest are going the stars robert heinlein
alt.atheism	vonnegut atheism yesterday got the chance hear kurt vonnegut speak the university new hampshire vonnegut succeeded isaac asimov the honorary head the american humanist association vonnegut atheist and was asimov before asimov funeral vonnegut stood and said about asimov heaven now which ignited uproarious laughter the room from the people was speaking around the time the funeral the funniest thing could have possibly said room full humanists vonnegut said yesterday lecture vonnegut comes speak your university highly recommend going see him even you never read any his novels opinion the greatest living humorist greatest living humanist humorist well peace dana
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes should clarify what muslims usually mean when they say muslim general anyone who calls themselves muslim and does not outwardly profess something clear contradiction with the essential teachings islam considered muslim thus one who might things contrary islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly not become muslim one knowingly transgresses islamic teachings and essential principles though then one does leave islam you and bobby really need sit down and decide what exactly islam before posting here according zlumber one not muslim when one doing evil muslin can evil according him one who does evil suffering from temporary athiesm now would the members who claim muslims get their stories straight satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	request for support article apr sei cmu edu dpw sei cmu edu david wood writes you must respond one his articles include within something similar the following please answer the questions posed you the charley challenges agreed satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	bill conner article mlr darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes could you explain what any this pertains this position statement something typing practice and why are you using name you think this relates anything said and what bill could you explain what any the above pertains this position statement something typing practice satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts article jvigneau apr ulowell edu jvigneau ulowell edu joe vigneau writes anything the bsa has taught don know tolerance something before met this guy thought all gays were faries the bsa has taught antibigot could give much the same testimonial about experience scout back the the issue wasn gays but the principles were the same thanks for well put testimonial stan krieger and his kind who think this discussion doesn belong here and his intolerance the only acceptable position scouting should take notice the bsa has been hijacked the religious right but some the core values have survived spite the leadership and some scouts and former scouts haven given seeing testimonial like this reminds that scouting still worth fighting for cautionary note you must realize that your experience with this camp leader was the bsa you may putting him risk publicizing word could leak out the bsa gestapo bill mayne
alt.atheism	soc motss princeton axes matching funds for boy scouts wainwright eczcaw mips nott wrote jim always thought that homophobe was only word used act rallies didn beleive real people used let see agree the term definition homophobe one who actively and militantly attacks homosexuals because actually latent homosexual who uses his hostility conceal his true orientation since everyone who disapproves condemns homosexuality homophobe your implication clear must necessarily follow that all men are latent homosexuals bisexual the very least crap crap crap crap crap definition any type phobe comes from phobia irrational fear hence homophobe not only act meetings the word apparently general use now perhaps isn the bible wouldst thou prefer were communicate with thou bilespeak does arachnophobe have irrational fear being spider does agoraphobe have irrational fear being wide open space you understand english obviously someone who has phobia will react they will their best avoid and that not possible they will either strike out run away gaybashings occur because natural processes people who definately have homophobia will either run away from gay people cause them themselves violence isn that what said what are you taking issue with here your remarks are merely parenthetical mine and add nothing useful would seem odd homosexuality had any evolutionary function other than limiting population growth since evolution only occurs when the members one generation pass along their traits subsequent generations homosexuality evolutionary deadend take your usage the term homophobe the sense you seem intend then all men are really homosexual and evolution our species least going nowhere every time man has sex with woman they intend produce children hmm wonder the world overpopulated obviously you keep the monty python song every sperm sacred and you say has purpose means limit population growth then your own arguement natural consider the context talking about evolutionary function one the most basic requirements evolution that members species procreate those who don have purpose that context another point that the offspring each generation survive the participation both parents necessary family must exist since homosexuals not reproduce they cannot constitute family since the majority humankind part family homosexuality evolutionary abberation contrary nature you will well that true your own arguements homosexuals would have vanished years ago due non procreation also the parent from single parent families should put the babies out the cold now cos they must your arguement die your argument homosexuality genetically determined your second point you prove again that you have idea what context means talking about evolution the preservation the species the fundamental premise the whole process but gets worse since the overwhelming majority people actually prefer heterosexual relationship homosexuality social abberation well the homosexual eschews the biological imperative reproduce and then the social imperative form and participate the most fundamental social element the family but wait there more read the above expect you have least ten children now with the family growing these days sex less with procreation admittedly without there would one but more with pleasure pre pill and pre condom days you had sex there was the chance producing children these days just ain true people can decide whether not have children and when soon they will able choose sex but that another arguement more lifestyle decision again your arguement since homosexuals can not choose not reproduce they must akin people who decide have sex but not children both are unnatural each other yet another non sequitur sex evolutionary function that exists for procreation that also recreation incidental that homosexuals don procreate means that sex only recreation and nothing more they serve evolutionary purpose since homosexuals have come out the closet and have convinced some policy makers that they have civil rights they are now claiming that their sexuality preference life style orientation choice that should protected law now homosexuality mere choice and both contrary nature and anti social then perverse choice they have even less credibility than before they became prominent people are people are people who are you tell anyone else how live their life are you god fancy date here pretty obvious dodge you really think you said anything you just feel obligated respond every statement not telling anyone anything demonstrating that there are arguments against the practice homosexuality providing merely alternate lifestlye that are not homophobic that one can reasonably call perverse context even atheist can understand realize course that this comes dangerously close establishing value and that atheists are compelled object that basis but you are consistent you have case this regard characterize any opposition homosexuality homophobic ignore some very compelling arguments against the legitimization the homosexual life style but since the charge only intended intimidate really just demogoguery and not taken seriously fact jim there are far more persuasive arguments for suppressing homosexuality than those given but consider this start again crap all your arguments are based outdated ideals likewise the bible would any honest christian condemn the ten generations spawned bastard eternal damnation someone who crushes his penis either accidently not both are deuteronomy sure your comment pertains something but you disguised well can see what where did mention ideals out dated otherwise your arguments are very reactionary you have anything all contribute why homosexuals should excluded from participation scouting the reasons are the same those used restrict them from teaching their own logic homosexuals are deviates social and biological since any adult role model for child incumbent the parent ensure that the child isolated from those who would the child harm this case harm means primarily social though that could extended easily enough you show anyone who has sex way that everyone would describe normal and will take hat puma baseball cap you one man meat another man poison what has this got with anything would you pick single point that you find offensive and explain your objections would really like believe that you can discuss this issue intelligibly bill
alt.atheism	fluids liquids west next wam umd edu brian west writes deleted similar analogy can made with glass for those you who don know glass liquid ask your science teacher and does flow deleted your science teacher tells you glass liquid try get different science teacher glass supercooled fluid not liquid except very high temperatures the definition liquid includes readily takes the form its container let try more accurate here don want people think creationists now uucp uunet tektronix sail mikec cranford uunet tektronix sail labs tek com mikec principal troll arpa mikec sail labs tek com relay net resident skeptic csnet mikec sail labs tek com teklabs tektronix
alt.atheism	gospel dating article vyfu darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes keith ryan kmr cwru edu wrote wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence you state that one the books your room blue certainly not need much evidence believe than you were claim that there two headed leapard your bed and don mean male lover leotard keith the issue what truth then the consequences whatever proposition argued irrelevent the issue what are the consequences such and such true then truth irrelevent which disagree every proposition needs certain amount evidence and support before one can believe there are miriad factors for each individual are all different quite obviously require different levels evidence one pointed out one history important while fussr one may not believe comrade who states that owns five pairs blue jeans one would need more evidence than one lived the united states the only time such statement here would raise eyebrow the the individual always wear business suits etc the degree the effect upon the world and the strength the claim also determine the amount evidence necessary when determining the level evidence one needs most certainly relevent what the consequences the proposition are the consequences proposition irrelvent please explain why one would not accept the electro magnetic force attraction between two charged particles inversely proportional the cube their distance apart remember the consequences the law are not relevent then can not use experimental evidence disproof one the consequences the law incongruency between the law and the state affairs incongruency between this law and any other natural law they are irrelevent when theorizing about the truth the law given that any consequences proposition irrelvent including the consequence self contradiction contradiction with the state affiars how are ever able judge what true not let alone find the truth the way what truth please define before inserting the conversation please explain what truth truth think that anything ever known for certain even there truth could never possibly know were find the concept meaningless satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape article jxd darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner writes there are couple things about your post and others this thread that are little confusing atheist one for whom all things can understood processes nature exclusively there need for any recourse divnity describe explain anything there purpose direction for any event beyond those required physics chemistry biology etc everything random nothing determnined this posts contains too many fallacies respond too the abolishment divinity requires the elimination freewill you have not shown this you have not even attempted however the existance omniscience being does eliminate freewill mortals posted over five months ago one has been able refute nor give any reasonable reasons against satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	gospel dating article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes deletion cannot see any evidence for the which the cynics this group would ever accept for the second the foundation the religion anyone who claims have seen the risen jesus back the day period believer and therefore discounted those this group since these are all ancients anyway one again choose dismiss the whole thing the third much metaphysical relationship anything else even those who agree have argued length over what means again don see how evidence possible cookies charlie the claims that jesus have been seen are discredited extraordinary claims that don match their evidence this case for one that the gospels cannot even agree was jesus who has been seen further there are zillions other spook stories and one would hardly consider others even religious context some evidence resurrection there have been more elaborate arguments made but looks they have not passed your post filtering thus interpret the extraordinary claims claim statement that the speaker will not accept any evidence the matter evidence the strict meaning there was actual evidence would probably part but the says nothing about the claims charlie have seen invisible pink unicorns your standards have evidence for ipus now benedikt
alt.atheism	contradictions article oys clj austin ibm com yoder austin ibm com stuart yoder writes then what would have with the universe you theists cannot understand that inside the universe and outside the universe are two different places put god outside the universe and you subtract from the ability interact with the inside the universe put inside the universe and you impose the rules physics god outside the universe things outside the universe not have the ability interact with the inside the universe therefore god cannot interact inside the universe has basis whatsoever you seem have positive knowledge about this corrallary the negation would contridict although not have complete model the physical rules governing the inside the universe expect that there are contradictory events likely destroy the fabric modern physics the other hand your notion omnipotent omniscient and infinitely benevolent god not subject physical laws you attempt explain this away describing being outside them beyond measurement beyond measurement means can have measurable effect reality cannot interact ergo your god irrelevant god beyond measure beyond measurement means can have measurable effect reality therefore god cannot have measurable effect reality has basis whatsoever corrallary the negation would contradict satan and the angels not have freewill they what god tells them mozumder snm ultb isc rit edu
alt.atheism	ontology was benediktine metaphysics article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes contradictory cannot exist contradictory property language correct this things defined contradictory language not exist need correct stands said will object definitions reality you then amend things described contradictory language not exist then come something which plainly false failures description are merely failures description you miss the point entirely things defined contradictory language not exist though something existing might meant conclusions drawn from the description are wrong unless there the possibility find the described and draw conclusions from direct knowledge the described then another possibility drop the contradictory part but that implies that one can trust the concept presented and that one has not got doubt the source well not objectivist remember neither but either things are directly sensed which includes some form modelling the way they are used modelling using something contradictive modelling not approved wonder why remain with the question something contradictory can sensed contradictory important point that either one manages resolve the contradictions one forced not use refer the contradictory part drawing conclusions one will fall the garbage garbage out trap benedikt
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie references deleted move this new thread article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article phkf inn dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes rushdie however understand muslim the fact that british citizen does not preclude his being muslim rushdie was atheist use local terminology not put words his mouth the time writing tsv and the time the fatwa february well was born muslim fairly certain was then muslim until explicitly renounces islam far know has never explicitly renounced islam though may have been extreme doubt about the existence god being muslim legal well intellectual issue according islam put simply possible not muslim not accept the charge apostacy because have never adult life affirmed any belief and what one has not affirmed one can not said have apostasized from the islam know states clearly that there can coercion matters religion the many muslims respect would horrified the idea that they belong their faith purely virtue birth and that person who freely chose not muslim could therefore put death salman rushdie good faith god satan paradise and hell all vanished one day fifteenth year when quite abruptly lost faith and afterwards prove new found atheism bought myself rather tasteless ham sandwich and partook for the first time the forbidden flesh the swine thunderbolt arrived strike down from that day this have thought myself wholly seculat person salman rushdie god trust think the rushdie affair has discredited islam more eyes than khomeini know there are fanatics and fringe elements all religions but even apparently moderate muslims have participated refused distance themselves from the witch hunt against rushdie yes think this true but there khomenei motivations are quite irrelevant the issue the fact the matter that rushdie made false statements fiction know but where the line between fact and fiction about the life mohammad only functional illiterate with absolutely conception the nature the novel could think such thing accept reluctantly from mobs pakistan but not from you what presented the fictional dream demented character cannot the wildest stretch the imagination considered reflection the actual mohammad what worse the novel doesn present the mahound mohammed character any worse light than secular histories islam particular there lewd misrepresentation his life that his wives that why few people rush his defense considered absolute fool for his writings the satanic verses don hold back considered apostate and blasphemer however not for his writing the satanic verses but for what people have accepted propagandistic version what contained that book have yet find one single muslim who has convinced that they have read the book some have initially claimed have done but none has shown more knowledge the book than superficial newsweek story might impart and all have made factual misstatements about events the book you wish understand the reasons behind this well has the origin the concept the satanic verses see the penguin paperback rafiq zakariyah called mohammad and the quran keep eye out for have counter proposal suggest that you see the viking hardcover salman rushdie called the satanic verses perhaps then you understand jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	visit from the jehovah witnesses article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article twso ileaf com mukesh ileaf com mukesh prasad writes article apr batman bmd trw com jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article ainn matt ksu ksu edu strat matt ksu ksu edu steve davis writes bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes the earth evil because satan rules over this new one guess been while since witness bothered with are they implying that satan omniscient you might try tricking them into saying that satan all knowing and then use that statement show them how their beliefs are self contradictary satan not omniscient but does hold dominion over the earth according christian theology note not confused with theology what are the standard theologies who what created satan and why orthodox christian theology states that god created lucifer satan along with the other angels presumably because wanted beings celebrate glorify existence and life and thereby god along with him actually the whys and wherefores god motivations for creating the angels are not big issue within christian theology but god created lucifer with perfect nature and gave him along with the other angels free moral will lucifer was high angel perhaps the highest with great authority seems that his greatness caused him begin take pride himself and desire equal greater than god forgot his place created being exalted himself above god and thereby evil and sin entered creation actually the story goes that lucifer refused bow before man god commanded him lucifer was devoted god yeah there nothing genesis that says the snake was anything more than snake well talking one had legs the time too don think pointing out contradictions stories the best way show the error theology they think supernatural entity kicked the first humans out paradise because they bit into fruit that gave them special powers well they might not respond well reason and logic brian
alt.atheism	ancient islamic rituals article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes there has been some discussion the pros and cons about sex outside marriage where the evidence for opinions the moment there are just generalities can cite for example read that the century the percentage youth and people general who suffer from depression has been steadily climbing western societies probably what was reading referred particularly the usa similarly one can detect trend towards greater occurrence sex outside marriage this century western societies particularly with the sexual revolution the but even before that think otherwise the sexual revolution the would not have been possible particularly with the gradual weakening christianity and consequently christian moral teachings against sex outside marriage propose that these two trends greater level general depression society and other psychological problems and greater sexual promiscuity are linked with the latter being prime cause the former cannot provide any evidence beyond this this stage but the whole thesis seems very reasonable and request that people ponder upon fred rice muslim giving his point view darice yoyo monash edu think this big leap sex depression one example myself where sex depression but seriously promiscuity decline depression not and might more reasonable say depression promiscuity think depression more likely come from emotional problems relationships family job friends and promiscuity used escape since see marriage civil and religious bond rather than emotional bond don see problem with sex before not outside marriage long you have the same commitment and devotion what expected from married couple course this just opinion brian
alt.atheism	yeah right article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes and what about that revelation thing charley you talking about this intellectual engagement revelation well obviously risk one takes see not rational but intellectual does madness qualify intellectual engagement too many people say that the concept metaphysical and religious knowledge contradictive not objectivist not particularly impressed with problems conceptualization the problem this case least bad that trying explain quantum mechanics and relativity the terms ordinary experience one can get some rough understanding but the language from the perspective ordinary phenomena inconsistent and from the perspective what being described rather inexact charitable exactly why science uses mathematics representation natural language not supposed replace the elaborate representation mathematical terminology nor supposed the truth opposed the representation gods religions ordinary language admittedly not every religion says but fancy side effect their inept representations are the eternal hassles between religions and allows for making experiments that will lead results that will agreed upon being similar show something similar religion analogous situation supposedly obtains metaphysics the problem that the better descriptive language not available with the effect that the models presented are useless and one can argue that the other way around namely that the only reason metaphysics still flourish because makes statements that can verified falsified showing that bogus and case holds reliable information can you show how you establish that this word reliable essentially meaningless the context unless you can show how reliability can determined haven you read the many posts about what reliability and how can acheived respectively determined benedikt
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date sat apr gmt from fred rice darice yoyo monash edu ivt cfj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes should british around blowing skyscrapers next don know you are doing but seems you are implying that the person accused blowing the wtc actually did and that islamic teachings have something with blowing the wtc wtc world trade centre which was the building that was blown think okay make some comments the person has only been accused innocent until proven guilty remember secondly there seem some holes his accusation that read about for instance they guy used that particular van blow the building and then back and claim his deposit back afterwards must incredibly stupid perhaps salamen was one those uneducated muslims hear much about nevertheless was apparently smart enough put together very sophisticated bomb doesn seem fit together somehow actually salameh was not the only person involved the other fellow was chemical engineer working for allied signal who had specifically studied explosive devices school believe not actually allow radical muslim types study things like this our universities much for the price freedom from what read the other fellow told salameh how put together over the phone the bomb was supposedly some sort sophisticated type put assume complicated sophisticated bomb together from instructions over the phone one must need some brains would expect despite this there have already been many attacks and threats against mosques and muslims the united states consequence his accusation have read now please tell where this happening live the and have heard very little about these mosque attacks there are many mosques houston texas and would like know what going can verify this the great jewish media conspiracy keeping from knowing about this the heard about the mosque attacks during the desert storm venture why quiet now maybe localized new jersey read this article the australian muslim times the newspaper weekly the australian muslim community this true perhaps one the muslims based north america they see this posting can elaborate islamic teachings teach against harming the innocent the qur explicitly teaches against harming innocents even times war the blowing the wtc and harming innocents therefore blatant contradiction islamic teachings this means absolutely nothing plenty people commit violence while following what they think are valid religious principles have seen people post many things here from the koran which could misinterpreted that the explanation you wish use uneducated muslim allow them harm idolators and unbelievers the first thing every muslim says that muslim could have done that because islam teaches against harming innocents and are supposed take you word that never happens what you think the consequence does allah strike them down before the alleged violence occurs course not muslims commit the violent act and then everyone hides behind verses the koran pretty hip that trick and even doubt that will come the trials defense that muslim and islam teaches not harm the innocent therefore the people who were killed must not have been innocent sure set off the bomb your honor but you must remember sir muslim allah all powerful allah would not have allowed this are you insulting religion great defense just admit that there are some incredibly stupid violent muslims the world and stop hiding from that fact does one any good deny only makes the more reasonable muslims look like they are protecting the bad ones can you see that don deny this fact the thrust argument here that salameh according law innocent has not been found guilty court law his guilt has not been established wrong for people make postings based this assumption islam teaches not harm innocents muslims who perhaps have not realized that islam teaches this perform such actions not because the teachings islam but rather spite and contradiction the teachings islam this important distinction should clarify what muslims usually mean when they say muslim general anyone who calls themselves muslim and does not outwardly profess something clear contradiction with the essential teachings islam considered muslim thus one who might things contrary islam through ignorance for example does not suddenly not become muslim one knowingly transgresses islamic teachings and essential principles though then one does leave islam the term muslim contrasted with min which means true believer however whether muslim reality min something known only god and perhaps that person himself you will not find the term min used very much muslims alt atheism because not known anybody except myself and god whether for example true believer not for example could just putting show here and reality believe something opposite what write here without anyone knowing thus when say muslims mean all those who outwardly profess follow islam whether practice they might ignorance transgress islamic teachings muslim not necessarily mean min true believer islam fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	gospel dating mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes david wood writes extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence more seriously this just high falutin way saying don believe what you saying are you making meta argument here any case you are wrong think those invisible pink unicorns also the existence jesus not extradinary claim was responding the historical accuracy biblical claims which the existence jesus only one and one that was not even mentioned post you may want complain that the miracles attributed him constitute such claims and won argue otherwise but that different issue wrong that was exactly the issue back and read the context included within post and you see what mean now that done you the kindness responding your questions please the same for answer the charley challenges your claim that they are the did not did variety dishonest dodge that feel certain fools only one person dave wood
alt.atheism	and another thing mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes keith ryan writes you will ignore any criticism your logic any possible incongruenties your stance you will not answer any questions the validity any opinion and facts you state when have start saying that not what said and the response did there reason continue someone not going argue with version position then they cannot argued with but course your version your position has been included the charley challenges your claim above flat out lie further only last week you claimed that you might not answer the challenges because you were turned off included text which you want your context included articles not come think this contradiction has the makings new entry the next challenges post the way kept every bloody thing that you written related this thread and will only too pleased post any back position you seem have forgotten that you leave electronic paper trail the net this the usual theist approach matter how many times certain argument has been disproven shown non applicable non sequitur they keep cropping time after time speaking non sequiturs this has little with what just said and have some sauce for the goose some the disproof fallacies repeated over and over such the law nature argument someone posted recently now now let not change the subject wouldn best finish the thread question before you begin new ones dave wood
alt.atheism	periodic post charley challenges with additions new this version challenge plus addendum summarizing charley responses date this posting made periodically attempt encourage charley wingate address direct challenges his evidently specious claims continue post periodically until answers them publicly indicates that won answer them stops posting alt atheism the alt atheism community tells stop get totally bored apologize for the somewhat juvenile nature this approach but loss figure out another way crack his intransigence and seeming intellectual dishonesty this post charley can help but notice that you have still failed provide answers substantive questions that have been raised response your previous posts submit that you don answer them because you cannot answer them without running afoul your own logic and once again challenge you prove wrong make the task easy for you possible present concise statements some the questions that you have failed answer the hope that you may address them one time for all see should you fail answer again within reasonable time period will post this article with suitable additions and deletions such time that notice post you another topic will repeat this procedure until you either address the outstanding challenges you cease post this newsgroup would like apologize advance you have answered any these questions previously and your answer missed notice you can kind enough post mail such articles will only too pleased publicly rescind the challenge question and remove from this list now the questions after claiming that all atheists fit into neat psychological patterns that you proposed then semi retracting that claim stating that you weren referring all atheists asked you name some atheists who you feel don fit your patterns show that you indeed were not referring all atheists that you are aware you failed please now question can you name any posters who not fit into your stereotype here the context for the question this not true for everyone this board and you are out line assuming that you however deleted the text further along where said that didn mean imply that everybody experience was along the same lines whether not you mean make such implications you repeatedly allow approach the issue from another viewpoint can you name those atheists that you come across who not fit into the patterns that you theorize you have taken umbrage statements the effect that senses and reason are all have and when pressed you have implied that have alternative called revelation have repeatedly asked you explain what revelation and how one can both experience and interpret revelation without doing via our senses and reason you failed please now question can you explain what revelation and how one can experience and interpret without using senses and inherent reasoning here the context for the question revelation not reason and have revelation then reasoning not all have first show that revelation exists second revelation not perceived through the senses how exactly perceived according webster revelation act revealing communicating divine truth now tell how such thing can revealed communicated other than via the senses tell how you can interpret this revelation other than with reason that using your brain interpret what you are sensing when say there way for human being interface with the universe other than via the senses interpreted reason your brain because this the simple truth you have another mechanism interface all means share with then later you cannot escape the fact that our entire interface with the universe our senses and our reason period again this indefensible simple truth challenge you show otherwise then later few mystics will agree this assertion and the common defense redefining senses absorb for instance mystical experiences begs the question whether some senses are better than others allow you the broadest definition senses make things easier for you now show that mystical experiences exist remember you aren allowed testimony others mystics since you have dismissed testimony unreliable you know tainted own bias further once these mystical thingies are absorbed show evidence that human can recognize and respond them short interpretation via that person reasoning capabilities challenge you show these things you cannot you might well give the fight then later let reiterate you have not explained your interpretation your experiences not possible for have attacked them point fact specifically challenged you explain this revelation stuff that you were talking about and note for the record that you appear have declined challenge what how sensed how interpreted and how does this sensing and interpretation occur without the conduit our senses and reasoning abilities you have answered none these questions that straight the heart your claims you can answer them your claims are entirely specious you have stated that all claims dispassionate analysis made posters are unverifiable and fantastical asked you identify one such claim that have made you have failed please now question have made any claims all that are unverifiable and fantastical please repeat them here the context for the question must thank david wood most sensitive and intelligent wrong posting then later likewise the reference unverifiable fantastical claims represents fairly accurately reaction all the claims dispassionate analysis that are repeated this group give your address and pleased send you dictionary failing that can you name one claim that have made that any sense unverifiable fantastical demand that you retract this statement you cannot offer evidence you follow your usual pattern ignoring the challenge then you are simply asshole first you dismissed claims atheists that they became atheists result reason then later you stated that one accepted the axioms reason that one couldn help but become atheist asked you explain the contradiction your only response was statement that the question was incoherent opinion not shared others that have asked they atheist theist you have failed answer the question please now question you retract your claim that posters have not become atheists result reason despite their testimony that effect you don retract that claim you retract the subsequent claim that acceptance the axioms reason inevitably result atheism here the context for the question first quote have here bunch people who claim that their position based reason atheists prove then second quote but not see how one can accept these axioms and not end with atheistic point view first you claimed that you would probably not answer these challenges because they contained too much the way included text from previous posts later you implied that you wouldn respond because was putting words your mouth please clarify this seeming contradiction question you prefer respond challenges that include context from your own posts that paraphrase your positions order avoid included text here the context for the question first you said ordinary rules are that don read articles over over lines articles which there nothing but included text the first screen these are not rules morality but practicality then later someone not going argue with version position then they cannot argued with usual your responses are awaited with anticipation dave wood for the record below compilation charley responses these challenges date this makes sense all gives the appearance either utter incoherence answering some question wood imagination wood not subscribe the opinion that gauntlet thrown down the net requires any response whatsoever some point might read and respond your article and then again might not ordinary rules are that don read articles over over lines articles which there nothing but included text the first screen these are not rules morality but practicality left out something else don respond utmost list things avoid are arguments about the arguments meta arguments some call them when have start saying that not what said and the response did there reason continue someone not going argue with version position then they cannot argued with
alt.atheism	political atheists halat pooh bears jim halat writes think objective morality does exist but that most flavors morality are only approximations once again natural objective morality fairly easily defined long you have goal mind that what the purpose this morality maybe not quite getting what you mean this but think objective morality oxymoron definition seems any goal oriented issue like this subjective nature don get how you using the word objective but the goal need not subjective one for instance the goal natural morality the propogation species perhaps wasn really until the more intelligent animals came along that some revisions this were necessary intelligent animals have different needs than the others and hence morality suited them must bit more complicated than the law the jungle don think that self actualization subjective you might think and objectivity assuming that the ideals any such system could carried out completely keith
alt.atheism	request for support have request for those who would like see charley wingate respond the charley challenges and judging from mail there appear quite few you clear that wingate intends continue post tangential unrelated articles while ingoring the challenges themselves between the last two postings the challenges noted perhaps dozen more posts wingate none which answered single challenge seems unmistakable that wingate hopes that the questions will just away and doing his level best change the subject given that this seems rather common net theist tactic would like suggest that impress upon him our desire for answers the following manner ignore any future articles wingate that not address the challenges until answers them explictly announces that refuses you must respond one his articles include within something similar the following please answer the questions posed you the charley challenges really not looking humiliate anyone here just want some honest answers you wouldn think that honesty would too much ask from devout christian would you nevermind that was rhetorical question dave wood
alt.atheism	gospel dating article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes assuming you are presenting accurately don see how this argument really leads any firm conclusion the material john not sure exactly what referred here but take for granted the similarity the matt luke material different hence one could have almost any relationship between the two right john getting straight from jesus mouth the argument says john has known codified version the logia and not the original assuming that there has been one has weaknesses course like that john might have known the original yet rather referred his text that the logia were given codified version the first place the argument alone does not allow firm conclusion but fits well into the dating usually given for the gospels are talking date texts here not the age the authors the usual explanation for the time order mark matthew and luke does not consider their respective ages says matthew has read the text mark and luke that matthew and probably that mark the version the usual theory have heard has matthew and luke independently relying mark and one would think that luke relied matthew wouldn have the grating inconsistencies the geneologies for one thing not necessarily luke may have trusted the version knew better than the version given matthew improving matthew would give motive for instance far know the theory that luke has known matthew based statistical analysis the texts assumed that john knew the content luke text the evidence for that not overwhelming admittedly this the part that particularly new were possible that you could point reference grateful yep but will take another day get the source hope your german good enough unfortunately haven got the info hand was think the late early and was possibly old when they are from about why they shed doubt the order putting john after the rest the three because closes the gap between supposed writing and the existing copy quit bit the further away from the original the more copies can written and therefore survival becomes more probable still not see how copies from allow change the dating john that john was disciple not generally accepted the style and language together with the theology are usually used counterargument not really impressed with the theology argument but really pointing this out and pointed out earlier one cannot make these arguments about peter see reason not accept authentic letter yes but gives only possibilities and evidence the authencity many letters still discussed looks conclusions about them are not drawn because some pet dogmas the churches would probably fall with them well one step and one generation removed bad even our times compare that reports similar events our century almost illiterate societies the best analogy would reporters talking the participants which not bad well rather like some newsletter political party reporting from the big meeting not necessarily wrong but certainly bad other words one does not know what the original mark did look like and arguments based mark are pretty weak but the statement divinity not that section and any case agreed that the most important epistles predate mark yes but the accuracy their tradition another problem question are there letters not from paul and predating mark claiming the divinity jesus benedikt
alt.atheism	americans and evolution article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article tinn senator bedfellow mit edu bobs thnext mit edu robert singleton writes deletion will argue that your latter statement believe that gods exist does rest upon faith that you are making positive statement that gods exist strong atheism rather than merely saying don know and therefore don believe them and don not believe then weak atheism once again not believe god different than saying believe that god does not exist still maintain the position even after reading the faqs that strong atheism requires faith the way usually used view you are saying here that driving car requires faith that the car drives not saying this all requires faith part say the car drives because seen drive done more than fact actually driven now what does require some faith the belief that senses give accurate representation what out there but there evidence pro con for the existence non existence god see what have say below this for conclusion and have more faith than have the premises and the argument used sorry remain skeptical don believe entirely conclusion that you have seen evidence that there god correct neither have but lack evidence for the existence something way evidence for the non existence something the creationist have similar mode argumentation which they disprove evolution the establish creation you personally have never seen neutrino before but they exist the pink unicorn analogy breaks down and rather naive have scientific theory that explains the appearance animal life evolution when draw the conclusion that pink unicorns don exist because haven seen them this conclusion has foundation observation and theory pink unicorn did exist would qualitatively similar other known entities that say since there good evidence that all life earth has evolved from more primitive ancestors these pink unicorns would share common anscestory with horses and zebras and such god however has such correspondence with anything imo there physical frame work observation draw any conclusions from but first let say the following might have language problem here regards faith and existence christian maintain that god does not exist exist means have being space and time god does not have being god being kierkegaard once said that god does not exist eternal with this said feel rather pointless debate the called existence god and that not what doing here believe that god the source and ground being when you say that god does not exist also accept this statement but obviously mean two different things however what follows will use the phrase the existence god usual sense and this the sense that think you are using would like clarification upon what you mean the existence god that word game disagree with you profoundly this haven defined god existence fact haven defined god but this might getting off the subject although you think relevant can come back further saying god existence either waste time existence already used and there need replace god you are implying more with which case your definition and your argument far are incomplete making fallacy you are using wrong categories here perhaps you misunderstand what saying making argument what ever and offering definition there fallacy not trying convince you anything believe and that rests upon faith and inappropriate apply the category logic this realm unless someone tells you that they can logically prove god that they have evidence then the use logic disprove their claims fine and necessary btw incomplete argument not fallacy some things are not even wrong deletion one can never prove that god does does not exist when you say that you believe god does not exist and that this opinion based upon observation will have ask what observtions are you refering there are observations pro con that are valid here establishing positive belief deletion where does that follow aren observations based the assumption that something exists don follow you here certainly one can make observations things that they didn know existed still maintain that one cannot use observation infer that god does not exist such positive assertion requires leap and wouldn you say there level definition that the assumption god meaningful not would reject that concept anyway where your evidence for that god meaningful some level once again you seem completely misunderstand have evidence that god meaningful any level maybe such response you gave just comes naturally you because many people try run their own private conception god down your throat however not doing this arguing one and only one thing that make positive assertion about something for which there can principle evidence for against requires leap requires faith you would say theist however there form atheism that can respect but must founded upon honesty benedikt bob singleton bobs thnext mit edu
alt.atheism	second law was albert sabin joel hanes jjh diag amdahl com wrote connor assertion that more complex later paleontology simply incorrect many lineages are known which whole structures are lost for example snakes have lost their legs cave fish have lost their eyes some species have almost completely lost their males kiwis are descended from birds with functional wings joel the statements made were illustrative the inescapably anthrpomorphic quality any desciption evolutionary process there way evolution can described explained terms other than teleological that whole point even those who have reason believe they understand evolution biologists for instance tend personify nature and can help but wonder because the limits the language the nature nature bill
alt.atheism	gospel dating keith ryan kmr cwru edu wrote wild and fanciful claims require greater evidence you state that one the books your room blue certainly not need much evidence believe than you were claim that there two headed leapard your bed and don mean male lover leotard keith the issue what truth then the consequences whatever proposition argued irrelevent the issue what are the consequences such and such true then truth irrelevent which bill
alt.atheism	gospel dating jim perry perry dsinc com wrote the bible says there god that true then our atheism mistaken what seems pretty obvious socrates said there were many gods that true then your monotheism and our atheism mistaken even socrates never existed jim think you must have come late the discussion part least began with benedikt questioning the historical acuuracy the was making the point that the same standards are used validate secular history that are used here discredit history then virtually nothing known the first century you seem saying that the bible cannot true because speaks the existence god were fact your objection has nothing with history merely another statement atheism bill
alt.atheism	not the omni charley wingate mangoe umd edu wrote please enlighten how omnipotence contradictory definition all that can occur the universe governed the rules nature thus god cannot break them anything that god does must allowed the rules somewhere therefore omnipotence cannot exist contradicts the rules nature obviously omnipotent god can change the rules when you say definition what exactly being defined certainly not omnipotence you seem saying that the rules nature are pre existant somehow that they not only define nature but actually cause that what you mean like hear your further thoughts the question bill
alt.atheism	only knew prudenti juncol juniata edu wrote upon arriving home joseph probably took advantage mary had his way with her speak course word this couldn get around mary being the highly religious follower that she was decided hey just say that god impregnated one will ever know thus seen trustworthy and honorable soul she was believed and then came jesus the child born from violence dave can you explain the purpose your post can imagine what you must have thougt meant bill
alt.atheism	allah akbar and praise the lord maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote and thank the lord that bill connor has returned set straight now know can die happy when lexus wipes out that rain slick curve the rest you had best straighten because your time even more limited most you are going the flu maddi you know you glad have visit but won stay long this time just shopping around bill
alt.atheism	dear theist pixie andy bgsu edu wrote for all the problems technology has caused your types have made things even worse must reminded the inquisition operation rescue the klux klan posse comitatus the club david duke salem witch trials the crusades gay bashings etc plus virtually each and every single war regardless the level technology has had theistic organizations cheering the carnage chaplains etc and claiming that god was favor the whole ordeal don forget pray for our troops this really tedious every bad thing that ever happened because the malefactors were under the influence religion does anyone really believe that seen often must pretty general opinion but want believe that atheists are really not that dishonest please stick the facts and having accomplished that interpret them correctly bill
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape jim perry perry dsinc com wrote xenophobia both facto and jure implemented legal systems widespread while the bible although not egalitarian specifically preaches kindness the stranger and emphasizes the book ruth that foreigner can join the nation and give rise one the great heroes the nation clearly better than the alternative but american what strikes strange about this story that should have even been considered issue jim there are couple things about your post and others this thread that are little confusing atheist one for whom all things can understood processes nature exclusively there need for any recourse divnity describe explain anything there purpose direction for any event beyond those required physics chemistry biology etc everything random nothing determnined this would also have include human intelligence course and all its products there nothing requiring that life evolve that acquire intelligence just happy accident for atheist event can preferred another said have more less value than another any naturalistic sense and thought about event can have value the products our intelligence are acquired from our environment from teaching training observation and experience and are only significant the individual mind wherein they reside these mental processes and the images they produce for are just electrical activity and nothing more content consequence the human mind much response natural forces water running down hill how then can atheist judge value what the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated the bible the purposes imputed god what grounds can the the behavior the reliogious condemned seems that judging the values that motivate others action you have have some standard against which conduct measured but what nature can serve that purpose what law nature can you invoke establish your values since every event entirely and exclusively physical event what difference could possibly make what anyone does religious otherwise there can meaning gradation value the only way atheist can object any behaviour admit that the objection entirely subjective and that she just doesn like that any value judgement must prefaced the disclaimer that nothing more than matter personal opinion and carries weight any absolute sense that you don like what god told people says nothing about god god commands says only that there was electrical event your nervous system that created emotional state that your mind coupled with pre existing thought set form that reaction that your objections seem well founded due the way you been conditioned there truth content the whole your intellectual landscape illusion virtual reality didn make these rules inherent naturalistic atheism and consistent you have accept the non significance any human thought even your own all this being you have excluded yourself from any discussion values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have weight whatsoever bill
alt.atheism	bill conner could you explain what any this pertains this position statement something typing practice and why are you using name you think this relates anything said and what bill
alt.atheism	islam dress code for women dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes deletion course people say what they think the religion and that this not exactly the same coming from different people within the religion there nothing with there existing different perspectives within the religion perhaps one can say that they tend converge the truth point that they are doing lot harm the way the meantime and that they converge counterfactual religions appear split and diverge even when there might true religion the core the layers above determine what happens practise and they are quite inhumane usually what you post then supposed answer but don see what has got with what say will repeat religions are harm people and religions don converge they split giving more disagree upon and there lot disagreement whom one should tolerant one should tolerant all ideologies also split giving more disagree upon and may also lead intolerance you also oppose all ideologies don think your argument argument against religion all but just points out the weaknesses human nature big deletion women have souls islam people have said here that some muslims say that women not have souls must admit have never heard such view being held muslims any era have heard some christians some eras holding this viewpoint but not muslims are you sure you might not confusing christian history with islamic history yes supposed have been predominant view the turkish caliphate would like reference you have got one for this news anyhow that women are the spiritual equals men can clearly shown from many verses the qur for example the qur says for muslim men and women for believing men and women for devout men and women for true men and women for men and women who are patient and constant for men and women who humble themselves for men and women who give charity for men and women who fast and deny themselves for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much god praise for them has god prepared forgiveness and great reward qur abdullah yusuf ali translation there are other quotes too but think the above quote shows that men and women are spiritual equals and thus that women have souls just men very clearly does not implies that they have souls but does not say they have souls and not given that the quote above given high priority all interpretations one must approach the qur with intelligence any thinking approach the qur cannot but interpret the above verse and others like that women and men are spiritual equals think that the above verse does clearly imply that women have souls does make any sense for something without soul forgiven have great reward understood the after life think the usual answer would which case the part saying for them has god prepared forgiveness and great reward says they have souls makes sense say that things without souls can forgiven then have idea what soul for your saying that the quote above may not given high priority all interpretations any thinking approach the qur has give all verses the qur equal priority that because according muslim belief the whole qur the revelation god fact denying the truth any part the qur sufficient considered disbeliever islam quite similar you other post even when the quran does not encourage slavery not justified say that iit forbids puts end slavery non sequitur look any approach the qur must done with intelligence and thought this fashion that one can try understand the quran message book finite length cannot explicitly answer every question you want put but through its teachings can guide you think however that women are the spiritual equals men clearly and unambiguously implied the above verse and that since women can clearly forgiven and rewarded they must have souls from the above verse let try understand what the qur trying teach rather than try see how many ways can misinterpreted ignoring this passage that passage the misinterpretations the qur based ignoring this verse that verse are infinite but the interpretations fully consistent are more limited let try discuss these interpretations consistent with the text rather than how people can ignore this bit that bit for that just showing how people can try twist islam for their own ends something not deny but provides reflection the true teachings islam whatsoever fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage apr ennews eas asu edu guncer enuxha eas asu edu selim guncer writes you might not like what bernard lewis writes about label him zionist such discredit him etc you misrepresent selim the hard evidence for statements about his lack objectivity are presented quite clearly the book orientalism edward said edward said the way christian not muslim think pretty much objective his treatment race and slavery the middle east since clearly distinguishes between slavery under islam and the practice slavery other countries like the prior the civil war also does not conceal that there are verses the quran which promote the liberation slaves what doesn and don think nobody can deduce from these verses that slavery will eventually abolished islamic countries now you might rather conveniently blame the practice slavery muslims but the facts are out there also fail see the relevance the claim lewis being zionist what wrote regarding bernard lewis him being zionist gives him political motive for his giving misrepresentations and half truths about islam read orientalism edward said see the evidence for yourself fact may post some here isn too long they were encyclopaedic information which anybody can access that slavery was abolished certain dates some years after muhammed that this was the cause tensions the ottoman empire between the arab slave traders and the government etc also have the asu library volumes british documents slavery where reports and documents concerning slavery all around the world can found which checked some the incidents lewis mentions don think ones political stance has anything with documentary evidence haven read lewis article can comment directly upon and have only spoken about his writings general far that his political motives make him biased writer islam his anti islamic polemics understand are often quite subtle and are often based telling half truths again read orientalism edward said not asking you take what say trust fact urging you not but get this book well known book and check the evidence out for yourself the issue raised was that slaves were used for sexual purposes when was claimed that islam prohibits extra marital sex wrote that the prophet himself had concubines wrote incident which the prophet advised someone who did not want his concubine get pregnant etc which contrary the notion that sex for procreation only other words such claims are baseless the quran and the hadith slavery reality opposed the practice some muslims opposed islam then using slaves for sexual purposes necessarily opposed too seem unsuccesful getting through you islam not advocating slavery slavery was existing institution the century advised slaves being freed for good deeds etc which nothing new many cultures saw this good thing what the problem here but can argue rightfully that slaves were discouraged about thinking about their statuses politically the quran rewards the good slave obey your master and perhaps one day you free but very understandable that not communicate with muslims since they assume the quran from god and think rule based system imposed the society for preservation the status quo slaves are part this system the subordination women that their function society boils down child making part this system etc understand your point view selim think rather who are not getting through you some the points you repeat above have already answered before regarding women have made posting after posting this subject showing that islam not anti woman etc however have you been completely ignoring postings just missing them just reposted very good one under the title islam and women reposted from soc religion islam this has already disappeared from your site then please email telling and will email you copy this excellent article imho your understanding the issue women islam sadly deficient regarding slaves posting slavery the second one made which repost article wrote early last year based completely the qur and contains numerous qur anic verses and hadiths support its point view our approaches are different you are arguing from historical standpoint and arguing directly from the teachings the qur and hadiths now just because people say they are muslims and perform particular action does that automatically mean that their action part islam even opposed the qur and sunnah course not let give you concrete example which might help clarify this for you the qur prohibits drinking now person says muslim and then proceeds drink bottle beer does this now mean that islam teaches that people should drink beer course not and only idiot would think you see point very natural think that the author authors the quran had idea that the socio economic structure they were advocating would experience least two paradigm shifts years the western cultures first with the end the feudal era and the rise commerce second with the industrial revolution well rules have changed and the status quo has driven muslim countries into misery trying survive heathen world muslim countries have failed economically they were unable accumulate any wealth directly due the uncomprimising economic rules the quran fact the rise islam can easily modeled after the pyramid effect you not produce any wealth home but increase your wealth conquering places you are judging islam here capitalist terms capitalism ideology based largely the assumption that people want maximise their wealth this assumption opposition islamic teachings say islam bad because not capitalist pretty unthinking islam does not pretend capitalist and does not try capitalist this does not mean that islam does not support free market for does general but there are other parts capitalism which are opposed islam understand when this stopped you and were left bare the open for emperialists devour capital industry very poor social services the education level muslim countries are the lowest the world the health statistics are miserable etc one can postulate numerous reasons for this your theory that because islam not secularist and capitalist etc etc selim will give you clear historical example show you the fallacy your views you think you obviously that islam lack education and power for large part history the islamic world was very powerful for significant section history the islamic world was the foremost the sciences say that islam for example anti education completely absurd you try blame this situation islam history shows that your conclusion false and that instead there must other reasons for this situation you blame muslims for not following the quran but blame muslims for following the quran well selim your viewpoint women islam makes question the extent your knowledge islam really think you are not knowledgeable enough able judge whether the muslims are following the qur not your idea baseless from historical facts poor utopia the islamic world was the forefront the world science one stage yet somehow your theory following the qur that muslims are backwards education selim your thesis that anti historical for you conveniently overlook this historical fact which contradicts your theory while ideas are derived from social and economic history you have certainly not shown this you have merely stated far seems that your view islam being anti education quite contrary history that you are convinced your views makes wonder just how objectively you are trying look all this solution all muslims simple cut the crap think selim you should consider taking your own advice get the facts straight here too and work hard reverse the effects years ignorance selim you have such conviction your viewpoint yet you demonstrate ignorance not only islam but also islamic history particularly with respect muslims being leaders science till about think yet you say that your viewpoint based history selim remember right you say one your earlier posts that you are apostate from islam think you should slow down and start thinking clearly about the issues and start reading some our postings about islam rather than ignoring them you obviously have fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	jews can hide from keith cco article pqdor fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes the poster casually trashed two thousand years jewish history and ken replied that there had previously been people like him germany think the problem here that pretty much ignored the part about the jews sightseeing for years thinking instead that the important part what the original poster said was the bit about killing palestinians retrospect can see how the sightseeing thing would offensive many originally saw just poetic license but understandable that others might see differently still think that ken came bit strong though also think that your advice masud khan before you argue with someone like arromdee good idea little homework least think was unnecessary that right there have been there have also been people who were formally nazis but the nazi party would have gone nowhere without the active and tacit support the ordinary man the street who behaved though casual anti semitism was perfectly acceptable now what exactly don you understand about what wrote and why don you see what has with the matter hand throughout all your articles this thread there the tacit assumption that the original poster was exhibiting casual anti semitism agreed with that then maybe your speech why this bad might have been relevant but think you reading lot into one flip sentence while probably not true this case too often the charge anti semitism gets thrown around order stifle legitimate criticism the state israel anyway rather somewhere else outta this thread doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq frequently asked questions archive name atheism faq alt atheism archive name faq last modified april version alt atheism frequently asked questions this file contains responses articles which occur repeatedly alt atheism points covered here are ones which are not covered the introduction atheism you are advised read that article well before posting these answers are not intended exhaustive definitive the purpose the periodic faq postings not stifle debate but raise its level you have something say concerning one these questions and which isn covered the answer given please feel free make your point overview contents what the purpose this newsgroup hitler was atheist the bible proves pascal wager what occam razor why good believe jesus why know that god exists einstein and god does not play dice everyone worships something why there must causeless cause the universe complex must have been designed independent evidence that the bible true godel incompleteness theorem george bush atheism and patriotism know where hell biblical contradictions wanted the usa christian nation the usa not christian nation subject what the purpose this newsgroup typical posting why have newsgroup about atheism why atheists organize groups what there discuss response many things are discussed here including whether reasonable feign theism order avoid upsetting one family prayer schools discrimination against atheists sunday trading laws the satanic child abuse myth whether one should overt atheist stay the closet how religious societies prey sic new college students how get rid unwanted proselytizers whether religion danger society and the individual why people become atheists course inevitably alt atheism tends attract evangelical christians looking for someone convert most readers the newsgroup don want preached although few seem derive perverse pleasure from tearing apart particularly ill considered uninformed postings subject hitler was atheist typical posting hitler was atheist and look what did response adolf hitler was emphatically not atheist said himself the folkish minded man particular has the sacred duty each his own denomination making people stop just talking superficially god will and actually fulfill god will and not let god word desecrated orig ital for god will gave men their form their essence and their abilities anyone who destroys his work declaring war the lord creation the divine will therefore let every man active each his own denomination you please and let every man take his first and most sacred duty oppose anyone who his activity word deed steps outside the confines his religious community and tries butt into the other hence today believe that acting accordance with the will the almighty creator defending myself against the jew fighting for the work the lord orig ital adolf hitler from mein kampf trans ralph mannheim course someone bad believing something does not make that belief wrong also entirely possible that hitler was lying when claimed believe god certainly can conclude that atheist though subject the bible proves typical posting the bible says that response most the readers alt atheism feel that the bible questionable accuracy was written thousands years ago many authors who were recording oral tradition that existed many years before thus any claimed truth questionable legitimacy this isn say that the bible has truth simply that any truth must examined before being accepted many the readers this group also feel that because any passage subject interpretation any claim that passage means one thing and one thing only not legitimate note that this feeling tends extend other books also remarkable many atheists that theists tend ignore other equally plausible religious books favour those their own religion subject pascal wager typical posting you believe god and turn out incorrect you have lost nothing but you don believe god and turn out incorrect you will hell therefore foolish atheist response this argument known pascal wager has several flaws firstly does not indicate which religion follow indeed there are many mutually exclusive and contradictory religions out there this often described the avoiding the wrong hell problem person follower religion may end religion version hell secondly the statement that you believe god and turn out incorrect you have lost nothing not true suppose you believing the wrong god the true god might punish you for your foolishness consider also the deaths that have resulted from people rejecting medicine favour prayer another flaw the argument that based the assumption that the two possibilities are equally likely least that they are comparable likelihood fact the possibility there being god close zero the argument becomes much less persuasive sadly the argument only likely convince those who believe already also many feel that for intellectually honest people belief based evidence with some amount intuition not matter will cost benefit analysis formally speaking the argument consists four statements one does not know whether god exists not believing god bad for one eternal soul god does exist believing god consequence god does not exist therefore one interest believe god there are two approaches the argument the first view assumption and consequence one problem with this approach the abstract that creates information from information this considered invalid information theory statement indicates one has information about god but statement indicates that beneficial information can gained from the absolute lack information about god this violates information entropy information has been extracted from information cost the alternative approach claim that and are both assumptions the problem with this that then basically assumption which states the christian position and only christian will agree with that assumption the argument thus collapses you are christian your interests believe god rather vacuous tautology and not the way pascal intended the argument viewed the biggest reason why pascal wager failure that god omniscient will certainly know who really believes and who believes wager will spurn the latter assuming actually cares all whether people believe him subject what occam razor typical posting people keep talking about occam razor what response william occam formulated principle which has become known occam razor its original form said not multiply entities unnecessarily that you can explain something without supposing the existence some entity then nowadays when people refer occam razor they generally express more generally for example take the simplest solution the relevance atheism that can look two possible explanations for what see around there incredibly intricate and complex universe out there which came into being result natural processes there incredibly intricate and complex universe out there and there also god who created the universe clearly this god must non zero complexity given that both explanations fit the facts occam razor might suggest that should take the simpler the two solution number one unfortunately some argue that there third even more simple solution there isn incredibly intricate and complex universe out there just imagine that there this third option leads logically towards solipsism which many people find unacceptable subject why good believe jesus typical posting want tell people about the virtues and benefits religion response preaching not appreciated feel free talk about your religion but please not write postings that are conversion theme such postings not belong alt atheism and will rejected from alt atheism moderated try the newsgroup talk religion misc you would doubtless not welcome postings from atheists your favourite newsgroup attempt convert you please unto others you would have them unto you often theists make their basic claims about god the form lengthy analogies parables aware that atheists have heard god and know the basic claims about him the sole purpose your parable tell atheists that god exists and brings salvation you may well not post since tells nothing have not been told before subject why know that god exists typical posting know from personal experience and prayer that god exists response just many theists have personal evidence that the being they worship exists many atheists have personal evidence that such beings not exist that evidence varies from person person furthermore without wishing dismiss your evidence out hand many people have claimed all kinds unlikely things that they have been abducted ufos visited the ghost elvis and subject einstein and god does not play dice typical posting albert einstein believed god you think you cleverer than him response einstein did once comment that god does not play dice with the universe this quotation commonly mentioned show that einstein believed the christian god used this way out context refers einstein refusal accept the uncertainties indicated quantum theory furthermore einstein religious background was jewish rather than christian better quotation showing what einstein thought about god the following believe spinoza god who reveals himself the orderly harmony what exists not god who concerns himself with fates and actions human beings einstein was unable accept quantum theory because his belief objective orderly reality reality which would not subject random events and which would not dependent upon the observer believed that was incomplete and that better theory would have need for statistical interpretations far such better theory has been found and much evidence suggests that never will longer quote from einstein appears science philosophy and religion symposium published the conference science philosophy and religion their relation the democratic way life inc new york says the more man imbued with the ordered regularity all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there room left the side this ordered regularity for causes different nature for him neither the rule human nor the rule divine will exists independent cause natural events sure the doctrine personal god interfering with natural events could never refuted italics his the real sense science for this doctrine can always take refuge those domains which scientific knowledge has not yet been able set foot but convinced that such behavior the part representatives religion would not only unworthy but also fatal for doctrine which maintain itself not clear light but only the dark will necessity lose its effect mankind with incalculable harm human progress their struggle for the ethical good teachers religion must have the stature give the doctrine personal god that give that source fear and hope which the past placed such vast power the hands priests their labors they will have avail themselves those forces which are capable cultivating the good the true and the beautiful humanity itself this sure more difficult but incomparably more worthy task einstein has also said was course lie what you read about religous convictions lie which being systematically repeated not believe personal god and have never denied this but have expressed clearly something which can called religious then the unbounded admiration for the structure the world far our science can reveal the latter quote from albert einstein the human side edited helen dukas and banesh hoffman and published princeton university press also from the same book not believe immortality the individual and consider ethics exclusively human concern with superhuman authority behind course the fact that einstein chose not believe christianity does not itself imply that christianity false subject everyone worships something typical posting everyone worships something whether money power god response that true everyone polytheist theists care just much about those things that atheists care about the atheists reactions for example their families amount worship then the theists subject why there must causeless cause typical posting sets integers that have lower bound each have smallest member chains causes must all have first element causeless cause response the set real numbers greater than zero has definite lower bound but has smallest member further even true that there must causeless cause that does not imply that that cause must conscious supernatural entity and especially not that any such entity must match the description favoured any particular religion subject the universe complex must have been designed typical posting the presence design the universe proves there god surely you don think all this appeared here just chance response this known the argument from design matter dispute whether there any element design the universe those who believe that the complexity and diversity living creatures the earth evidence creator are best advised read the newsgroup talk origins for while there insufficient space summarize both sides that debate here however the conclusion that there scientific evidence favour called scientific creationism furthermore there much evidence observation and theory that can explain many the complexities the universe and life earth the origin the argument design feeling that the existence something incredibly intricate say human improbable that surely can have come about chance that surely there must some external intelligence directing things that humans come from the chaos deliberately but human intelligence improbable surely the existence mind capable fashioning entire universe complete with conscious beings must immeasurably more unlikely the approach used argue favour the existence creator can turned around and applied the creationist position this leads the familiar theme creator created the universe what created the creator but with the addition spiralling improbability the only way out declare that the creator was not created and just was from here might well ask what wrong with saying that the universe just without introducing creator indeed stephen hawking his book brief history time explains his theory that the universe closed and finite extent with beginning end the argument from design often stated analogy the called watchmaker argument one asked imagine that one has found watch the beach does one assume that was created watchmaker that evolved naturally course one assumes watchmaker yet like the watch the universe intricate and complex the argument goes the universe too must have creator the watchmaker analogy suffers from three particular flaws over and above those common all arguments design firstly watchmaker creates watches from pre existing materials whereas god claimed have created the universe from nothing these two sorts creation are clearly fundamentally different and the analogy therefore rather weak secondly watchmaker makes watches but there are many other things the world walked further along the beach and found nuclear reactor wouldn assume was created the watchmaker the argument would therefore suggest multitude creators each responsible for different part creation finally the first part the watchmaker argument conclude that the watch not part nature because ordered and therefore stands out from the randomness nature yet the second part the argument start from the position that the universe obviously not random but shows elements order the watchmaker argument thus internally inconsistent subject independent evidence that the bible true typical posting the events the new testament are confirmed independent documentary evidence for example response the writings josephus are often mentioned independent documentary evidence early versions josephus work are thought not have mentioned jesus james the extant version discusses john non christian context many scholars believe that the original mentioned jesus and james passing but that this was expanded christian copyists several reconstructions the original text have been published this effect much information appears the ecclesiastical history eusebius about worthless historical material because the deliberate falsification the wily eusebius who generally acknowledged the first thoroughly dishonest historian antiquity eusebius who generally given the title authorship for this material aside from the new testament the biographical information about jesus more well documented for further information please consult the frequently asked questions file for the newsgroup soc religion christian subject godel incompleteness theorem typical posting godel incompleteness theorem demonstrates that impossible for the bible both true and complete response godel first incompleteness theorem says that any consistent formal system which sufficiently expressive that can model ordinary arithmetic one can formulate expressions which can never proven valid invalid true false within that formal system technically speaking the system must also recursive that there must decision procedure for determining whether given string axiom within the formal system essentially all such systems can formulate what known liar paradox the classic liar paradox sentence ordinary english this sentence false note that proposition undecidable the formal system cannot even deduce that undecidable the logic used theological discussions rarely well defined claims that godel incompleteness theorem demonstrates that impossible prove disprove the existence god are worthless isolation one can trivially define formal system which possible prove the existence god simply having the existence god stated axiom this unlikely viewed atheists convincing proof however may possible succeed producing formal system built axioms that both atheists and theists agree with may then possible show that godel incompleteness theorem holds for that system however that would still not demonstrate that impossible prove that god exists within the system furthermore certainly wouldn tell anything about whether possible prove the existence god generally note also that all these hypothetical formal systems tell nothing about the actual existence god the formal systems are just abstractions another frequent claim that godel incompleteness theorem demonstrates that religious text the bible the book mormon whatever cannot both consistent and universally applicable religious texts are not formal systems such claims are nonsense subject george bush atheism and patriotism typical posting did george bush really say that atheists should not considered citizens response the following exchange took place the chicago airport between robert sherman american atheist press and george bush august sherman fully accredited reporter and was present invitation member the press corps the republican presidential nominee was there announce federal disaster relief for illinois the discussion turned the presidential primary what will you win the votes americans who are atheists guess pretty weak the atheist community faith god important surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism americans who are atheists don know that atheists should considered citizens nor should they considered patriots this one nation under god you support sound constitutional principle the separation state and church yes support the separation church and state just not very high atheists upi reported may that various atheist organizations were still angry over the remarks the exchange appeared the boulder daily camera monday february can also found free enquiry magazine fall issue volume number page october sherman had confrontation with murnane cochairman the bush quayle illinois campaign this concerned lawsuit sherman had filed stop the community consolidated school district chicago illinois from forcing his first grade atheist son pledge allegiance the flag the united states one nation under god bush phrase the following conversation took place american atheists filed the pledge allegiance lawsuit yesterday does the bush campaign have official response this filing bullshit what bullshit everything that american atheists does rob bullshit thank you for telling what the official position the bush campaign this issue you welcome after bush election american atheists wrote bush asking him retract his statement february boyden gray counsel the president replied white house stationery that bush substantively stood his original statement and wrote you are aware the president religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should unnecessarily encouraged supported the government for further information contact american atheist veterans the american atheist press cameron road address subject know where hell typical posting know where hell hell norway response there are several towns called hell various countries around the world including norway and the usa whilst this information mildly amusing the first time one hears readers alt atheism are now getting pretty fed with hearing every week subject biblical contradictions wanted typical posting does anyone have list biblical contradictions response american atheist press publish atheist handbook detailing biblical contradictions see the accompanying posting atheist resources for details there file containing some biblical contradictions available from the archive server mantis see the contacts file for more information subject the usa christian nation typical posting because the religious beliefs the founding fathers shouldn the united states considered christian nation response based upon the writings several important founding fathers clear that they never intended the christian nation here are some quotes there are many more what influence fact have ecclesiastical establishments had society some instances they have been seen erect spiritual tyranny the ruins the civil authority many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones political tyranny instance have they been the guardians the liberties the people rulers who wish subvert the public liberty may have found established clergy convenient auxiliaries just government instituted secure and perpetuate needs them not james madison memorial and remonstrance almost shudder the thought alluding the most fatal example the abuses grief which the history mankind has preserved the cross consider what calamities that engine grief has produced john adams letter thomas jefferson history believe furnishes example priest ridden people maintaining free civil government this marks the lowest grade ignorance which their political well religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose thomas jefferson baron von humboldt cannot conceive otherwise than that the infinite father expects requires worship praise from but that even infinitely above benjamin franklin from articles belief and acts religion nov subject the usa not christian nation typical posting true that george washington said that the united states not any sense founded upon the christian religion response the quotation often given fact from article the treaty tripoli stat treaty series article the government the united states america not any sense founded the christian religion has itself character enmity against the laws religion tranquility musselmen and the said states never have entered into any war act hostility against any mehomitan nation declared the parties that pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce interruption the harmony existing between the two countries the text may found the congressional record treaty collections such charles bevans treaties and other international agreements the united states america vol the english text the treaty tripoli was approved the senate june and ratified president john adams june was recently discovered that the arabic version the treaty not only lacks the quotation lacks article altogether the person who translated the arabic english was joel barlow consul general algiers close friend thomas paine and opponent christianity possible that barlow made article but since there arabic version that article found hard say new treaty tripoli was ratified which longer contained the quotation end faq digest
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq constructing logical argument archive name atheism logic alt atheism archive name logic last modified april version constructing logical argument although there much argument usenet the general quality argument found poor this article attempts provide gentle introduction logic the hope improving the general level debate logic the science reasoning proof thinking inference concise oed logic allows analyze piece reasoning and determine whether correct not valid invalid course one does not need study logic order reason correctly nevertheless little basic knowledge logic often helpful when constructing analyzing argument note that claim being made here about whether logic universally applicable the matter very much open for debate this document merely explains how use logic given that you have already decided that logic the right tool for the job propositions statements are the building blocks logical argument proposition statement which either true false for example raining today tuesday propositions may either asserted said true denied said false note that this technical meaning deny not the everyday meaning the proposition the meaning the statement not the particular arrangement words used express god exists and there exists god both express the same proposition argument quote the monty python sketch connected series statements establish definite proposition argument consists three stages first all the propositions which are necessary for the argument continue are stated these are called the premises the argument they are the evidence reasons for accepting the argument and its conclusions premises assertions are often indicated phrases such because since obviously and the phrase obviously often viewed with suspicion can used intimidate others into accepting suspicious premises something doesn seem obvious you don afraid question you can always say yes you right obvious when you heard the explanation next the premises are used derive further propositions process known inference inference one proposition arrived the basis one more other propositions already accepted there are various forms valid inference the propositions arrived inference may then used further inference inference often denoted phrases such implies that therefore finally arrive the conclusion the argument the proposition which affirmed the basis the premises and inference conclusions are often indicated phrases such therefore follows that conclude and the conclusion often stated the final stage inference for example every event has cause premise the universe has beginning premise all beginnings involve event premise this implies that the beginning the universe involved event inference therefore the universe has cause inference and conclusion note that the conclusion one argument might premise another argument proposition can only called premise conclusion with respect particular argument the terms not make sense isolation sometimes argument will not follow the order given above for example the conclusions might stated first and the premises stated afterwards support the conclusion this perfectly valid sometimes little confusing recognizing argument much harder than recognizing premises conclusions many people shower their writing with assertions without ever producing anything which one might reasonably describe argument some statements look like arguments but are not for example the bible accurate jesus must either have been insane evil liar the son god this not argument conditional statement does not assert the premises which are necessary support what appears its conclusion also suffers from number other logical flaws but come those later another example god created you therefore your duty god the phrase your duty god not proposition since neither true nor false therefore not conclusion and the sentence not argument finally causality important consider statement the form because interested establishing and offered evidence the statement argument trying establish the truth then not argument explanation for example there must something wrong with the engine car because will not start this argument car will not start because there something wrong with the engine this explanation there are two traditional types argument deductive and inductive deductive argument one which provides conclusive proof its conclusions that argument where the premises are true the conclusion must also true deductive argument either valid invalid valid argument defined one where the premises are true then the conclusion true inductive argument one where the premises provide some evidence for the truth the conclusion inductive arguments are not valid invalid however can talk about whether they are better worse than other arguments and about how probable their premises are there are forms argument ordinary language which are neither deductive nor inductive however will concentrate for the moment deductive arguments they are often viewed the most rigorous and convincing important note that the fact that deductive argument valid does not imply that its conclusion holds this because the slightly counter intuitive nature implication which must now consider more carefully obviously valid argument can consist true propositions however argument may entirely valid even contains only false propositions for example all insects have wings premise woodlice are insects premise therefore woodlice have wings conclusion here the conclusion not true because the argument premises are false the argument premises were true however the conclusion would true the argument thus entirely valid more subtly can reach true conclusion from one more false premises all fish live the sea premise dolphins are fish premise therefore dolphins live the sea conclusion however the one thing cannot reach false conclusion through valid inference from true premises can therefore draw truth table for implication the symbol denotes implication the premise the conclusion and represent true and false respectively premise conclusion inference the premises are false and the inference valid the conclusion can true false the premises are true and the conclusion false the inference must invalid the premises are true and the inference valid the conclusion must true sound argument valid argument whose premises are true sound argument therefore arrives true conclusion careful not confuse valid arguments with sound arguments delve further into the structure logical arguments would require lengthy discussion linguistics and philosophy simpler and probably more useful summarize the major pitfalls avoided when constructing argument these pitfalls are known fallacies everyday english the term fallacy used refer mistaken beliefs well the faulty reasoning that leads those beliefs this fair enough but logic the term generally used refer form technically incorrect argument especially the argument appears valid convincing for the purposes this discussion define fallacy logical argument which appears correct but which can seen incorrect when examined more closely studying fallacies aim avoid being misled them the following list fallacies not intended exhaustive argumentum baculum appeal force the appeal force committed when the arguer resorts force the threat force order try and push the acceptance conclusion often used politicians and can summarized might makes right the force threatened need not direct threat from the arguer for example thus there ample proof the truth the bible all those who refuse accept that truth will burn hell argumentum hominem argumentum hominem literally argument directed the man the abusive variety argumentum hominem occurs when instead trying disprove the truth assertion the arguer attacks the person people making the assertion this invalid because the truth assertion does not depend upon the goodness those asserting for example atheism evil philosophy practised communists and murderers sometimes court law doubt cast upon the testimony witness showing for example that known perjurer this valid way reducing the credibility the testimony given the witness and not argumentum hominem however does not demonstrate that the witness testimony false conclude otherwise fall victim the argumentum ignorantiam see elsewhere this list the circumstantial form argumentum hominem committed when person argues that his opponent ought accept the truth assertion because the opponent particular circumstances for example perfectly acceptable kill animals for food how can you argue otherwise when you quite happy wear leather shoes this abusive charge inconsistency used excuse for dismissing the opponent argument this fallacy can also used means rejecting conclusion for example course you would argue that positive discrimination bad thing you white this particular form argumentum hominem when one alleges that one adversary rationalizing conclusion formed from selfish interests also known poisoning the well argumentum ignorantium argumentum ignorantium means argument from ignorance this fallacy occurs whenever argued that something must true simply because has not been proved false equivalently when argued that something must false because has not been proved true note that this not the same assuming that something false until has been proved true basic scientific principle examples course the bible true nobody can prove otherwise course telepathy and other psychic phenomena not exist nobody has shown any proof that they are real note that this fallacy does not apply court law where one generally assumed innocent until proven guilty also scientific investigation known that event would produce certain evidence its having occurred the absence such evidence can validly used infer that the event did not occur for example flood described the bible would require enormous volume water present the earth the earth does not have tenth much water even count that which frozen into ice the poles therefore such flood occurred science can validly assume from lack evidence that something has not occurred cannot conclude with certainty that has not occurred however argumentum misericordiam this the appeal pity also known special pleading the fallacy committed when the arguer appeals pity for the sake getting conclusion accepted for example did not murder mother and father with axe please don find guilty suffering enough through being orphan argumentum populum this known appealing the gallery appealing the people commit this fallacy attempt win acceptance assertion appealing large group people this form fallacy often characterized emotive language for example pornography must banned violence against women the bible must true millions people know that are you trying tell them that they are all mistaken fools argumentum numeram this fallacy closely related the argumentum populum consists asserting that the more people who support believe proposition the more likely that that proposition correct argumentum verecundiam the appeal authority uses the admiration the famous try and win support for assertion for example isaac newton was genius and believed god this line argument not always completely bogus for example reference admitted authority particular field may relevant discussion that subject for example can distinguish quite clearly between stephen hawking has concluded that black holes give off radiation and john searle has concluded that impossible build intelligent computer hawking physicist and can reasonably expect his opinions black hole radiation informed searle linguist questionable whether well qualified speak the subject machine intelligence the fallacy accident the fallacy accident committed when general rule applied particular case whose accidental circumstances mean that the rule inapplicable the error made when one goes from the general the specific for example christians generally dislike atheists you are christian you must dislike atheists this fallacy often committed moralists and legalists who try decide every moral and legal question mechanically applying general rules converse accident hasty generalization this fallacy the reverse the fallacy accident occurs when one forms general rule examining only few specific cases which are not representative all possible cases for example jim bakker was insincere christian therefore all christians are insincere sweeping generalization dicto simpliciter sweeping generalization occurs when general rule applied particular situation which the features that particular situation render the rule inapplicable sweeping generalization the opposite hasty generalization non causa pro causa post hoc ergo propter hoc these are known false cause fallacies the fallacy non causa pro causa occurs when one identifies something the cause event but has not actually been shown the cause for example took aspirin and prayed god and headache disappeared god cured the headache the fallacy post hoc ergo propter hoc occurs when something assumed the cause event merely because happened before the event for example the soviet union collapsed after taking atheism therefore must avoid atheism for the same reasons cum hoc ergo propter hoc this fallacy similar post hoc ergo propter hoc asserts that because two events occur together they must causally related and leaves room for other factors that may the cause the events petitio principii this fallacy occurs when the premises are least questionable the conclusion reached circulus demonstrando this fallacy occurs when one assumes premise the conclusion which one wishes reach often the proposition will rephrased that the fallacy appears valid argument for example homosexuals must not allowed hold government office hence any government official who revealed homosexual will lose his job therefore homosexuals will anything hide their secret and will open blackmail therefore homosexuals cannot allowed hold government office note that the argument entirely circular the premise the same the conclusion argument like the above has actually been cited the reason for the british secret services official ban homosexual employees another example the classic know that god exists because the bible tells and know that the bible true because the word god complex question fallacy interrogation this the fallacy presupposition one example the classic loaded question have you stopped beating your wife the question presupposes definite answer another question which has not even been asked this trick often used lawyers cross examination when they ask questions like where did you hide the money you stole similarly politicians often ask loaded questions such how long will this interference our affairs allowed continue does the chancellor plan two more years ruinous privatization ignoratio elenchi the fallacy irrelevant conclusion consists claiming that argument supports particular conclusion when actually logically nothing with that conclusion for example christian may begin saying that will argue that the teachings christianity are undoubtably true then argues length that christianity great help many people matter how well argues will not have shown that christian teachings are true sadly such fallacious arguments are often successful because they arouse emotions which cause others view the supposed conclusion more favourable light equivocation equivocation occurs when key word used with two more different meanings the same argument for example what could more affordable than free software but make sure that remains free that users can what they like with must place license make sure that will always freely redistributable amphiboly amphiboly occurs when the premises used argument are ambiguous because careless ungrammatical phrasing accent accent another form fallacy through shifting meaning this case the meaning changed altering which parts statement are emphasized for example consider should not speak ill our friends and should not speak ill our friends fallacies composition one fallacy composition conclude that property shared the parts something must apply the whole for example the bicycle made entirely low mass components and therefore very lightweight the other fallacy composition conclude that property number individual items shared collection those items for example car uses less petrol and causes less pollution than bus therefore cars are less environmentally damaging than buses fallacy division the fallacy division the opposite the fallacy composition like its opposite exists two varieties the first assume that property some thing must apply its parts for example you are studying rich college therefore you must rich the other assume that property collection items shared each item for example ants can destroy tree therefore this ant can destroy tree the slippery slope argument this argument states that should one event occur will other harmful events there proof made that the harmful events are caused the first event for example legalize marijuana then would have legalize crack and heroin and have nation full drug addicts welfare therefore cannot legalize marijuana based fallacies type fallacies these fallacies occur when one attempts argue that things are some way similar without actually specifying what way they are similar examples isn history based upon faith then isn the bible also form history islam based faith christianity based faith isn islam form christianity cats are form animal based carbon chemistry dogs are form animal based carbon chemistry aren dogs form cat affirmation the consequent this fallacy argument the form implies true therefore true understand why fallacy examine the truth table for implication given earlier denial the antecedent this fallacy argument the form implies false therefore false again the truth table for implication makes clear why this fallacy note that this fallacy different from non causa pro causa the latter has the form implies false therefore false where does not fact imply all here the problem not that the implication invalid rather that the falseness does not allow deduce anything about converting conditional this fallacy argument the form then therefore then argumentum antiquitam this the fallacy asserting that something right good simply because old because that the way always been argumentum novitam this the opposite the argumentum antiquitam the fallacy asserting that something more correct simply because new newer than something else argumentum crumenam the fallacy believing that money criterion correctness that those with more money are more likely right argumentum lazarum the fallacy assuming that because someone poor she sounder more virtuous than one who wealthier this fallacy the opposite the argumentum crumenam argumentum nauseam this the incorrect belief that assertion more likely true the more often heard argumentum nauseum one that employs constant repetition asserting something bifurcation also referred the black and white fallacy bifurcation occurs when one presents situation having only two alternatives where fact other alternatives exist can exist plurium interrogationum many questions this fallacy occurs when questioner demands simple answer complex question non sequitur non sequitur argument where the conclusion drawn from premises which are not logically connected with red herring this fallacy committed when irrelevant material introduced the issue being discussed that everyone attention diverted away from the points being made towards different conclusion reification hypostatization reification occurs when abstract concept treated concrete thing shifting the burden proof the burden proof always the person making assertion proposition shifting the burden proof special case argumentum ignorantium the fallacy putting the burden proof the person who denies questions the assertion being made the source the fallacy the assumption that something true unless proven otherwise straw man the straw man fallacy misrepresent someone else position that can attacked more easily then knock down that misrepresented position then conclude that the original position has been demolished fallacy because fails deal with the actual arguments that have been made the extended analogy the fallacy the extended analogy often occurs when some suggested general rule being argued over the fallacy assume that mentioning two different situations argument about general rule constitutes claim that those situations are analogous each other this fallacy best explained using real example from debate about anti cryptography legislation believe always wrong oppose the law breaking such position odious implies that you would not have supported martin luther king are you saying that cryptography legislation important the struggle for black liberation how dare you quoque this the famous you too fallacy occurs when action argued acceptable because the other party has performed for instance you just being randomly abusive you been abusive too
alt.atheism	alt atheism faq overview for new readers archive name atheism overview alt atheism archive name overview last modified april version overview welcome alt atheism and alt atheism moderated this the first series regular postings aimed new readers the newsgroups many groups controversial nature have noticed that new readers often come with the same questions mis statements misconceptions and post them the net addition people often request information which has been posted time and time again order try and cut down this the alt atheism groups have series five regular postings under the following titles alt atheism faq overview for new readers alt atheism faq introduction atheism alt atheism faq frequently asked questions faq alt atheism faq constructing logical argument alt atheism faq atheist resources this article number please read numbers and before posting the others are entirely optional you are new usenet you may also find helpful read the newsgroup news announce newusers the articles titled primer how work with the usenet community answers frequently asked questions about usenet and hints writing style for usenet are particularly relevant questions concerning how news works are best asked news newusers questions you are unable find any the articles listed above see the finding stuff section below credits these files could not have been written without the assistance the many readers alt atheism and alt atheism moderated particular like thank the following people kck cmu edu karl kluge perry dsinc com jim perry netoprwa ncsuvm ncsu edu wayne aiken chpetk gdr bath toby kelsey jkp hut jyrki kuoppala geoff arnold east sun com geoff arnold torkel sics torkel franzen kmldorf utdallas edu george kimeldorf roe quads uchicago edu greg roelofs arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann psuvm psu edu john johnson dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham mayne open fsu edu william mayne ajr bigbird hri com andy rosen stoesser ira uka achim stoesser bosullvn unix tcd bryan sullivan lippard ccit arizona edu james lippard rigel tamu edu baum ydobyns phoenix princeton edu york dobyns schroede sdsc edu wayne schroeder baldwin csservera usna navy mil baldwin nibby unhh unh edu dana nibby dempsey kodak com richard dempsey jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john david munch pdc dcs paul crowley mips complang tuwien richard zach tycchow math mit edu tim chow simon dcs warwick simon clippingdale and countless others forgotten these articles are free truly free you may copy them and distribute them anyone you wish however please send any changes corrections the author and please not post copies the articles alt atheism does nobody any good have multiple versions the same document floating around the network finding stuff all the faq files should somewhere your news system here are some suggestions what you can find them check the newsgroup alt atheism look for subject lines starting with alt atheism faq check the newsgroup news answers for the same subject lines you don find anything steps your news system isn set correctly and you may wish tell your system administrator about the problem you have anonymous ftp access connect rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet alt atheism and you find the latest versions the faq files there ftp way copying files between networked computers you need help using getting started with ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers ftp list faq the body there are other sites which also carry news answers postings the article introduction the news answers newsgroup carries list these sites the article posted regularly news answers you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu consisting the following lines send usenet news answers finding sources send usenet alt atheism faq send usenet alt atheism introduction send usenet alt atheism logic send usenet alt atheism resources penultimate resort send mail mail server mantis consisting the following lines send atheism faq faq txt send atheism faq logic txt send atheism faq intro txt send atheism faq resource txt and our poor overworked modems will try and send you copy the files there other stuff too interesting commands try are help and send atheism index last resort mail mathew mantis post article the newsgroup asking how you can get the faq files you should only this you tried the above methods and they failed not nice clutter the newsgroup people mailboxes with requests for files better than posting without reading the faq though for instance people whose email addresses get mangled transit and who don have ftp will probably need assistance obtaining the faq files mathew
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu these bible lovers have got chill out all could just relax and see atheism for what the funny pages could have more material atheism denies the existence god this logically bankrupt where the proof this nonexistence joke nobody can take the above sense atheism seriously perhaps perhaps because you just made now put your skateboard away and read the faq learn something about atheism before you get off these tangents
alt.atheism	help you god court don think there really any question about which god the courts mean the request for solemnly swearing help you god always made after request pick the bible your left hand and hold your right hand the courts least always old and new testament though hard imagine picking the bible and swearing whatever god sometimes the least the religious influence there court greensboro where the judge routinely has everyone the courtroom stand join him prayer the beginning every session thought about sitting through but not terribly anxious spend days jail
alt.atheism	nicknames article apr zeus calpoly edu jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john munch wrote mathew faq can remember his last name keith lie tally sig ryan kent finn tastic sandvick cindy popsicle toes kandolf jim face sig tims simon clip that theist clippendale umar reasonable khan rob argue with strom dave buckminster fuller maddi never useful post hausmann hey what about affectionate nickname for you could take wrongly spelled surname cheers kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes atheism denies the existence god this logically bankrupt where the proof this nonexistence joke this one favorite fallacious points against atheism the belief that you can deny anything that you can prove doesn exist this easily nailed showing that infinite number beings are conceivable but not observed exist does this mean that would have believe all them according the above poster must believe objects beings that haven been proved not exist why stop god there could huge number beings identical ronald reagan except for trivial differences say one missing finger one has blond hair and they all live other planets can see them the reason one but atheists bring this that none these christians have vested interest these unknown beings with the exception god fine but why these people shoot themselves the foot and mock the idea god here again classic atheist fallacy how did they shoot themselves the foot radical muslims the crusades the inquisition are common examples that atheists like bring marks against religion how weak only fools can take that drivel seriously how about the grand daddy all human atrocities the stalinist movement twenty eight million people killed under this leadership which proudly featured atheism there big difference here stalin didn say that stood for particular moral position against murder and terrorism etc and then did the opposite like the religious movements was least honest killer this not support stalin but attack this viewpoint saying that atheism supports murder and violence just because one man was tyrant and atheist just bad logic look all the russians that helped stalin that weren atheists don they contradict your point besides your point assumes that his atheism was relevant his murdering people this just the common assumption that atheists can value life much theists which you didn support agnostics are not funny because they are more reasonable yet they some sense seem funny because they believe that the existence god unknowable this itself every bit the assumption that atheism though less arrogant and pompous and here another point you didn get out the faq atheist doesn have hold the positive view that god doesn exist she may just have the non existence the positive belief here the example strong atheism believe god does not exist positive belief weak atheism don believe god negative belief these are not the same some one that has never thought the idea god their whole life technically atheist but not the kind that you are calling unreasonable let look this way sets suppose that given person has huge set ideas that will represent capital letters and these people then either believe that these ideas exist real objects not santa then the person not believing santa but still having the idea santa but notice that even itself another idea this means you have lots cases christian yes yes where god atheist strong atheist weak all the set agnostic indeterminate why are people afraid say undecided must just another feature human nature undecided not sexy trendy glamorous word does not inspire much hate conflict not blasphemous not political fact too often taken mean unsophisticated nietzsche once said that man would rather will nonexistence than not will all but the darwinist way put this that humanity always prefers yes maybe because indecision not useful survival trait evolution has drilled take positions even false ones bake timmons iii
alt.atheism	christian morality vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes actually atheism based ignorance ignorance the existence any god don fall into the atheists don believe because their pride mistake how you know based ignorance couldn that wrong why would wrong fall into the trap that you mentioned wrong god free any time correct mistake that continues not while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for eternal soul speaks volumes what are the volumes that speaks besides the fact that leaves your choices you for the trap you are not position tell that don believe god because not wish unless you can know motivations better than myself you should believe when say that earnestly searched for god for years and never found him definitely agree that rather presumptuous for either side give some psychological reasoning for another belief mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	koresh god from mathew mathew mantis the latest news seems that koresh will give himself once finished writing sequel the bible article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes writing the seven seals something along those lines already written the first the seven which was around pages and has handed over assistant for proofreading would expect any decent messiah have built spellchecker maybe koresh will come with one heard had asked the fbi provide him with word processor does anyone know koresh has requested that wordperfect was written and owned mormons the theological implications requesting refusing are profound darin wilkins scubed scubed com will president for food
alt.atheism	you will all hell article pts psuvm psu edu pts psuvm psu edu writes pitt penn state controversy deleted bringing this back alt atheism relevance the guy says going hell that isn sufficient cause bitch the system operator worst bad etiquette unless you really believe that someone using his account without his knowledge permission which actually against the law patrick saxton pitt second rate school second rate city pts psuvm psu edu anon pts ecl psu edu atheism batman trust wouldn sufficient cause bitch the system operator this was just some guy saying that atheists are going hell the point was that recently many messages were posted from that address each these messages was posted different newsgroup with the apparent intent provoking the readers that particular group this along with the fact that these posts were written all caps makes these posts suspect whoever using this account using irresponsibly the intended user they should consider appropriate action someone else which seems possibility then this also reason report get many posts the flavor the one that started this thread only because have seen posts other groups this user that considering action brendan
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics thanks whoever posted this wonderful parody people who post without reading the faq was laughing for good minutes were there any parts the faq that weren mentioned think there might have been one two please don tell this wasn joke not ready hear that yet brendan
alt.atheism	morality constant was biblical rape bill conner bil okcforum osrhe edu wrote there are couple things about your post and others this thread that are little confusing atheist one for whom all things can understood processes nature exclusively this definition does not include all atheists see the faq however for one think there need invoke any divine spiritual explanations makes big difference claim that all things can understood natural processes and claim that our observations not require postulate any divine intervention anything spiritual for that matter humans are not omnipotent and neither science however science has one advantage theology doesn self correcting with nature its judge delightful see how scientific inquiry revealing self consistent simple picture our universe science longer bunch separate branches one from particle physics psychology and aspect our life our universe safe from its stern and stony eye not even our consciousness there need for any recourse divnity describe explain anything there purpose direction for any event beyond those required physics chemistry biology etc everything random nothing determnined actually determinism indeterminism philosophical question and science cannot say whether the whole thing actually somehow superdeterministic not think the question does not have any meaning far individual human beings their apparent free will illusion does not appear from their perspective bill can you say for sure whether you have free will not this would also have include human intelligence course and all its products there nothing requiring that life evolve that acquire intelligence just happy accident maybe who are tell seems intelligence useful when during the history earth has one species been able control one third the whole biosphere this can still result numerous happy accidents our genetic machinery blindly replicates and preserves even that machinery can result the same principle only the systems that can start replicating will survive those which don don make recommended reading for atheist event can preferred another said have more less value than another any naturalistic sense and thought about event can have value from whose perspective value events and things subjectively from perspective nature does not have values because does not have perspective values arise from awareness have subjective perspective easy assume that other people also and think about what would like their position will eventually discover the golden rule morality not necessarily gift from heavens fact may product evolution perhaps are aware ourselves because sense identity helpful allows play the roles others and make respect others who seem have identity too bill have you ever read aristotle try his ethica nikomakhea for starters how then can atheist judge value what the basis for criticizing the values ennumerated the bible the purposes imputed god what grounds can the the behavior the reliogious condemned seems that judging the values that motivate others action you have have some standard against which conduct measured but what nature can serve that purpose what law nature can you invoke establish your values lewis tells that this argument was the main reason why abandoned his atheism and became christian the argument severely flawed some values such the golden rule can have rational basis some others like the basic idea wanting live has probably its roots the way our brains are wired lewis ignored the very real possiblity that natural selection could also favour altruistic behaviour and morality well indeed humans evolved better and better building and using tools they also became better killing each other logical necessity that evolution could only favour those who knew how use tools but not against one own people the bible reveals quite nicely that the morality the early jews was not beyond this simple set rules hold the people together under one god their god did not care much about people other nations the time the things were quite different the jews were under rule empire and could longer simply ignore the gentiles new situation required new morality and along with new religion was born mutation meme pool since every event entirely and exclusively physical event what difference could possibly make what anyone does religious otherwise there can meaning gradation value the only way atheist can object any behaviour admit that the objection entirely subjective and that she just doesn like that any value judgement must prefaced the disclaimer that nothing more than matter personal opinion and carries weight any absolute sense looks like you haven bothered read philosophy whenever there observer there subjective point view which may value its existence and happiness even that were just result some physical event and other happiness too the observer comes think about absolutely objective sense that without any observers subjects moral judgments lose their meaning not possible for value simply exist without point view this includes gods too their values are only their personal judgments not absolute truths since such truths not exist the fact that most people not deliberately want hurt others manifestation the way have fought for our existence becoming social beings who can think and value others existence morality not property humans alone chimps dolphins and many other species show great care for each other dolphins have sometimes saved humans from drowning good deed indeed that you don like what god told people says nothing about god god commands says only that there was electrical event your nervous system that created emotional state that your mind coupled with pre existing thought set form that reaction that your objections seem well founded due the way you been conditioned there truth content the whole your intellectual landscape illusion virtual reality the last statement does not logically follow fact there every reason believe our thoughts can model reality very well and our senses can convey reliable information solipsism still logical possibility but not very likely one you are continuously mixing two different views the subjective point view which all share and objective point view which does not exist any observer thinker any personal being has its own point view does not matter whether this point view result some physical events not does not cease subjective from non observers non point view values not exist neither does pain pleasure beauty love such things are inherently subjective once again god wants wives submit their husbands even make leap faith into the unknown wants punish don disagree with his morals not think morals come from any supreme being remove morals means the same than make zombie machine without single thought god gave morality judge but disagree with him not fault free replace morals cannot see what the point giving someone moral system which disagrees with one own and then get mad this god must schizophrenic all this being you have excluded yourself from any discussion values right wrong goood evil etc and cannot participate your opinion about the bible can have weight whatsoever neither can the opinion any god for that matter cannot understand why subjective opinion thing made matter any way less credible than opinion thing made something else bill take note absolute values must independent any being including gods god has subjective viewpoint his own point view and his morals are his own petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes refuting nothing but simply telling you what see which childish propaganda and nothing refuted bcci was not islamic bank this post has nothing with islamic banks tiring this infantile garbage simply evaluated such could you maybe flesh out just bit did miss the full grandeur content virtue blinding atheism you may having difficulty seeing the light because you have your head your ass suggest making sure this not the case before posting again time for your lesson debate gregg yeah right begin included text from vice news tek com uunet psinntp wrldlnk usenet sun apr pdt noticed post this topic soc religion islam and since the topic the bcci being not being islamic bank has come have left the one mention the bcci bank called how bcci adapted the koran rules banking from this bibliography bennett neil how bcci adapted the koran rules banking the times august let see some guy writes piece with title that implies something the case then must that this how you support position you intend have anyone respect gregg any questions and even managed include the above reference with head firmly engaged ass what your excuse this supports nothing have reason believe that this piece anything other than another anti islamic slander job have respect for titles only for real content can look this article want true but can tell you bcci was not islamic bank seeing spending time responding propaganda responding this little sub thread really don feel deep need more than make statements the effect that the propaganda false someone wants discuss the issue more seriously then glad have real discussion providing references etc gregg
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that you right and david koresh claimed christian
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy find encyclopedia volume now look hitler adolf had many more people than just germans enamoured with him moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive come let retract the foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
alt.atheism	the pope jewish west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the pope jewish guess they right and always thought that the thing his head was just fancy hat not jewish headpiece don remember the name all clear now clear mud what that headpiece chort crl nmsu edu source newswire the vatican home genetic misfits michael gillow noted geneticist has revealed some unusual data after working undercover the vatican for the past years the popehat actually advanced bone spur reveals gillow his groundshaking report gillow who had secretly studied the innermost workings the vatican since returning from vietnam wheel chair first approached the scientific community with his theory the late the whole hat thing that was just cover the vatican didn want the catholic community realize their leader was hefting nearly kilograms extraneous bone tissue the top his skull notes gillow his report there are whole laboratories the vatican that experiment with tissue transplants and bone marrow experiments what started genetic fluke the mid now scientifically engineered and bred for the whole bone transplant idea started the mid sixties inspired doctor timothy leary transplanting deer bone cells into small white rats gillow quick point out the assassination attempt pope john paul and the disappearance leary from the public eye when becomes time replace the pope says gillow the old pope and the replacement pope are locked padded chamber they butt heads much like male yaks fighting for dominance the herd the victor emerges and has earned the privilege inseminating the choir boys moorcockpratchettdenislearydelasoulu iainmbanksneworderheathersbatmanpjorourke clive come let retract the foreskin misconception james trinity college dublin and apply the wire brush enlightenment geoffm brownbladerunnersugarcubeselectronicblaylockpowersspikeleekatebushhamcornpizza
alt.atheism	free moral agency and jeff clark article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes deletion you also said why did millions suffer for what adam and did seems pretty sick way going about creating universe gonna respond giving small theology lesson forgive used theology major first all believe that this planet involved cosmic struggle the great controversy betweed christ and satan borrowed book title god has consider the interests the entire universe when making decisions deletion universe has created the way can you tell why less tyrannic let one one own creatures what likes others your definitions your god has created satan with full knowledge what would happen including every choice satan can you explain what free will and how goes along with omniscience didn your god know everything that would happen even before created the world why concerned about being tyrant when noone would care everything was fine for them that the whole idea comes from the possibility abuse power something your god introduced according your description the way are you sure that you have read the faq especially the part about preaching benedikt
alt.atheism	the pope jewish article apr wam umd edu west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes last night while watching the rebroadcast jerry springer talk show heard this jewel thought from year old racist the focus this show was these kids and their hatred for the jewish religion and why some stuff deleted interesting and scary they went say how the jews had killed their god and how the end time that all the races would their homelands course they would remain america which new jeruselem says gen what another kid said but the rest the races would home and then the great battle plague whatever revel says would happen and the jews would killed the most interesting thing about this was that roomate catholic and had the kjv the bible his desk immediatly opened and began search for the quoted passages gen rev and john look for himself and couldn find what they said they saw don know saw this show while back and when heard these kids quote the bible justify their racist claims looked that quote about jesus hating jews since jesus himself was jew curiousity had been piqued such claim the jist the passage and sorry but can recall which passage was exactly was that jesus was condemning the pharisees for being corrupt course the pharisees were jewish too but wasn jews whole that jesus was condemning just the powers that nancy connor psychology undergrad the opinions express simon fraser university are own burnaby canada
alt.atheism	silly question tianity werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong writes mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes question this attitude god character seems awfully egotistical and proud but christianity tells people humble what the deal well god pretty much has right egotistical and proud mean created you doesn have the right proud such job course people don have much right proud what have they accomplished that can match god accomplishments anyways how their abilities compare with those god imbecile worm the earth quote pascal grumblegrumble you were god and you created universe wouldn you just little irked some self organizing cell globules tiny planet started thinking they were great and awesome you unfortunately the logic falls apart quick all perfect insulted threatened the actions lesser creature actually offspring how why shuold any all powerful all perfect feel either proud offended anything capable being aware the relationship every aspect every particle the universe during every moment time simultaneously should able understand the cause every action every cell globule each tniy planet well actually now that think seems kinda odd that god would care all about the earth was bad example but the amazing fact that does care apparently and that was willing make some grand sacrifices ensure our happiness all powerful owner everything the universe makes great sacrifices makes great headline but doesn make any sense what did sacrifice where did that couldn get back gave something who give chris you guys have fun agoin key west
alt.atheism	don beleive you either article apr antioc antioch edu smauldin antioc antioch edu writes stopped believing you well long before the invention technology god ahhh back alt autotheism where you belong brian
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence article qid fct horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes don see anything special about theism general that makes particular hazard more than say stupidity anarchy patriotism course depends the religion but see nothing about believing gods that and itself entails even promotes xenophobia genocide etc the emphasis the general then course you correct since you haven really said anything restrict our observations practiced religions there are lots examples god mandated genocide just ask the canaanites the point that you believe god and you believe has ordered you eliminate entire race you will likely make the attempt after all was the past could surely the present bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	free moral agency and jeff clark article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes this the reason like the controversy post modernism the issues polarities evil and good are just artificial constructs and they fall apart during closer inspection the more look into the notion constant struggle between the evil and good forces the more sounds like metaphor that people just assume without closer inspection more info please not well exposed these ideas bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	political atheists article apr news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott sauyet writes qabe innaff gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu writes chimpanzees fight wars over land but chimps are almost human keith could this the last message from schneider and more than three days old are these his final words and how many here would find that appropriate just that finals got the way the christians were leary having atheist spokesman seems clandestine and all that they had him removed course keith busy explaining his fellow captives how isn really being persecuted since after all they are feeding him and any resistance his part would only viewed trouble making understand did make bit fuss when they tatooed god trust his forehead though bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	new member article hiew portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes hello just started reading this group today and think going large participant its daily postings liked the section the faq about constructing logical arguments well done atheist but not try turn other people into atheists only try figure why people believe the way they don much care they have different view than when comes down could wrong willing admit the possibility something religious followers dont seem have the capability welcome aboard notice alot posts from bobby why does anybody ever respond his posts always falls back the same argument think you just answered your own question there the religion followed will cause bad right just because event was explained human have been done the name religion does not mean that actually followed the religion will always point the ideal and say that wasn followed can the reason for the event there really way argue with him why bother sure you may get upset because his answer blind and not supported factually but will win every time with his little argument don think there will any postings from direct response one his most responses were against his postings that spouted the fact that all atheists are fools evil for not seeing how peachy islam would leave the pro con arguments islam fred rice who more level headed and seems know more the subject anyway happy aboard how did you know was going welcome you abord dave fuller dfuller portal videocart com brian
alt.atheism	free moral agency article house helios house helios usq edu ron house writes marshall csugrad edu kevin marshall writes healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes you might think yeah then why didn god destroy the bud before got the point now with millions through the ages suffering along life the only answer know that satan made the claim that his way was better than god god allowing satan the chance prove that his way better than god all know what that has brought come god allowing the wishes one individual supercede the well being billions seriously doubt having read the bible twice never got the impression that god and satan were working some sort cooperative arrangement read the book job that was just bet brian
alt.atheism	some thoughts sold where sign brian the next book charles manson lord lunatic liar
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people anyone who dies for cause runs the risk dying for lie for people being able tell was liar well had grifters and charlatans since the beginning civilization david copperfield had been the messiah bet could have found plenty believers jesus was hardly the first claim faith healer and wasn the first witnessed what sets him apart niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away rubbish nations have followed crazies liars psychopaths and megalomaniacs throughout history hitler tojo mussolini khomeini qadaffi stalin papa doc and nixon come mind all from this century koresh non issue therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing take discrete mathematics formal logic course there are flaws your logic everywhere and sure others will tell you read the faq some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use course you have believe the bible first just because something written the bible does not mean true and the age that tome plus the lack external supporting evidence makes less credible you quote from the bible the future try back that quote with supporting evidence otherwise you will get flamed mercilessly don think most people understand what christian certainly not what see lot churches rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake loved enough die and save should the same hey can god himself inspires turn our lives over him that tuff and most people don want real christian would something for the strong persevere but just like weight lifting guitar playing drums whatever takes time don rush one day christianity your whole life not going church once week helping poor people once while box everything into time units such work this time sports social life god above these boxes and should carried with into all these boxes that have created for ourselves just like weight lifting guitar playing don know how you define the world total but would imagine total sacrafice everything for god sake would involve more than time commitment you are correct about our tendency box everything into time units would you explain how one should involove god sports and hehehe television kevin marshall computer science department virginia tech marshall csugrad edu blacksburg virginia
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes wait you just said that humans are rarely reasonable doesn that contradict atheism where everything explained through logic and reason this the contradiction atheism that proves false bobby mozumder proving the existence allah does anybody have bobby post which said something like don know why there are more men than women islamic countries maybe atheists killing the female children personal favorite sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	some thoughts did you read the faqs read the faqs yes you wouldn have posted such drivel the lord liar lunatic argument false trilemma even you disprove liar and lunatic which you haven you have not eliminated the other possibilities such mistaken misdirected misunderstood you have arbitrarily set three and only three possibilities without considering others read good book rhetoric and critical thinking you think the lord liar lunatic discussion example good argument you are need learning read the faqs again especially constructing logical argument ignore these instructions your peril disobeying them leaves you open for righteous flaming maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage this all sounds nice everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere wake people are just not like that seems evident from history that society has succeeded when had rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness the people isn obvious from places like iran that even there are only few greedy people society then they are going attracted positions power sounds like recipe for disaster looking historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states didn survive agree people are people and even you might start islamic revolution and create this perfect state takes some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules again cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote anyhow the basis the apparent success islamic banks seems that the statement that zero interest economy cannot survive today world may bit premature sure zero intested economical systems survive small scale ops not islamic invention and have operatives working all around the world however such systems don stand the corruption large scale operation actually nothing could handle human greed imho not even allah cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	new member article hiew portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller wrote right just because event was explained human have been done the name religion does not mean that actually followed the religion will always point the ideal and say that wasn followed can the reason for the event there really way argue with him why bother sure you may get upset because his answer blind and not supported factually but will win every time with his little argument don think there will any postings from direct response one his hey glad have some serious and constructive contributors this newsgroup agree the statement above you might argue with bobby for eons and still does not get the best thing spare your mental resources discuss more interesting issues cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article qjfnv ogt horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer wrote does the term hero worship mean anything you yes worshipping jesus the super saver indeed hero worshipping the grand scale worshipping lenin that will make life pleasant for the working people somehow similar what understand that gods are defined supernatural not merely superhuman the notion lenin was the borderline supernatural insights into how change the world wasn communist god but was the man who gave presents kids during christmas actually agree things are always relative and you can have direct mapping between movement and cause however the notion that communist russia was somewhat the typical atheist country only something that robertson tilton rest would believe those atheists were not true unbelievers huh don know what they were but they were fanatics indeed cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	some thoughts article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell wrote first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself seems didn understand anything about realities liar lunatic the real thing very narrow view the possibilities jesus message sigh seems religion makes your mind brain filter out anything that does not fit into your personal scheme anyone that thinks the possibilities with jesus bound the classical lewis notion liar lunatic saint indeed bound become christian cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article qjf horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qimbe fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article qif horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qialf fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes forget the origin the quote but gotta use words when talk you atheist one who lacks belief gods yes then entirely plausible that atheist could dig lenin lennon such extent that might considered worship and still atheist anything else seems newspeak ask yourself the following question would you regard ardent nazi republican simply because germany longer had kaiser because that based false dichotomy there are more options than you present and that course the point you can simply divide the world into atheists and non atheists the basis god belief all you care about belief supernatural deity and have nothing say about behaviour then belief supernatural being your criterion but once you start talking about behaviour then someone suscept ibility led bad people into doing bad things what you are assume worried about and that area what you care about whether someone sceptical critical and autonomous the one hand gullible excitable and easily led the other would say that tendency worship tyrants and ideologies indicates that person easily led whether they have worship belief supernatural hero rather than earthly one seems beside the point jon
alt.atheism	some thoughts article edm apr gocart twisto compaq com edm twisto compaq com mccreary writes thu apr gmt bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell said dlb first want start right out and say that christian dlb makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar dlb lunatic the real thing might little off the title but dlb writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity dlb the process became christian himself here again just the friendly folks christian central come save you
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article qjipo pen horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qinmd fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes any rate even your interpretation correct this does not imply that the killings are religously motivated which was the original poster seeming claim tricky tricky replying your blanket claim that they are not religiously motivated they aren irish catholics the south not kill irish protestants the south yet have precisely the same history behind them those who think the killings are religously motivated ignore the rather obvious matter british occupation partition and misguided patriotism both sides false dichotomy you claimed the killing were not religiously motivated and saying that wrong not saying that each and every killing religiously motivate spelled out detail the problems fault along the religious divide because the historical roots this thing have catholic country partitioned and populated protestant one the grotesque killing soldiers and civilians supposedly motivated patriotism civil rights issues and revenge only difficult understand insofaras insanity hard understand religion need not invoked explain does anyone else see the contradiction this paragraph but claim that the killings are not religously motivated grotesque all that means that the church and believers are doing what they always with history they can face they rewrite you attacking different claim claim that when ira terrorist plants bomb warrington does not have motive the greater glory god sorry frank but what put quotes your own words from your posting horus mchp sni don tell now that different claim you can longer stand behind your original claim just say jon
alt.atheism	don beleive you either article apr antioc antioch edu smauldin antioc antioch edu writes stopped believing you well long before the invention technology god don listen this guy just crank first this business about being the one true god was tolerated the rest but now has gotten completely out hand besides really isn bad when people stop believing you much more relaxing when mortals aren always begging you for favors zeus
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes state that know that there green marble closed box which have never seen nor have any evidence for its existance would guilty deceit even there fact green marble inside the question whether not there green marble inside irrelevent you ahead and play with your marbles love love love wish could fit all that into sig file someone keeping list bobby quotes sure include this one stating unproven opinion fact deceit and knowingly being decietful falsehood and lie why you think its unproven opinion said something fact but you think its opinion because you not accept then who right the flat earthers state that the earth flat fact don accept this think unproven opinion and think the round earthers are right because they have better evidence than the flat earthers although can prove that god doesn exist the arguments used support god existence are weak and often self contradictory and not going believe god unless someone comes over and gives reason believe god that absolutely can ignore while ago read interesting book fellow called von daenicken which proved some the wildest things and the last page wrote something like can you prove isn certainly can but not going believe him because based his proof some really questionable stuff such old myths called circumstancial evidence far atheism hasn made kill anyone and regarded quite agreeable fellow really sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	islamic authority sic over women who kmr cwru edu keith ryan what kmr cwru edu with rush leland stanford edu what apr leland stanford edu other readers just joined but this guy for real simply amazed sadly yes don loose any sleep over old zlumber just have some fun with him but basically harmless least you don work city don find hard believe that ole zlumber really believes the hate and ignorant prattle writes the frightening thought there are people even worse than say that feminism equals superiority over men laughable long doesn then proceed pick rifle and start shoot women preemptive strike aka the canada slaughter that occured few years ago but then men killing women nothing new islamic fundamentalists just have better excuse ran from the vancouver sun thursday october john davidson canadian press montreal perhaps the letter the five year old daughter that shocks the most hope one day you will old enough understand what happened your parents wrote patrick prevost loved your mother with passion that went far hatred police found the piece paper near prevost body his apartment northeast montreal they say the year old mechanic committed suicide after killing his wife jocelyne parent the couple had been separated for month and the woman had gone his apartment talk about getting some more money for food violent quarrel broke out and prevost attacked his wife with kitchen knife cutting her throat police said she was only the latest women slain husband lover quebec the last five weeks five children have also been slain result the same domestic battles last year quebec alone women were slain their husbands that was more than one third such cases across canada according statistics from the canadian centre for justice rest article ommited then say that women are somehow better should the one stay home and raise child also laughable women have traditionally done hard labor support family often more than men many cultures throughout history seems takes least two adults raise child and that both should stay home maximus
alt.atheism	feminism and islam again article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes there way around that via the hadith which state that silence taken mean yes and that women may not speak before judge who must conduct the marriage actaully that false hadith because contradicts verses the quran that says women may testify speak before judge hadiths are declared false when they contradict the quran hadiths weren written during the revelation during the life the prophet and may contain errors the only way you can tell false hadith from true one contradicts the quran what relates something that isn explicitly spelled out the quran also the quran wasn written down during the life muhammed either wasn long after but years still long enough shift few verses around karl lastly come china the hope all you touch and all you see fulfilling lifelong ambition all your life will ever dropping acid the great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even billion people believe
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes qie fkt horus mchp sni frank uucp writes article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes one those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next the word morality assume its idiom and cannot defined its separate terms give try objective morality morality built from objective values and these objective values are please specific and more importantly motivate take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable base this the assumption that everyone the world were deprived utterly their freedom that their every act was contrary their volition almost all would want complain therefore take that assert believe that freedom not very valuable when almost everyone can see that every bit absurd assert not raining rainy day take this candidate for objective value and necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such this exist frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes just borrowed book from the library khomeini fatwa etc found this useful passage regarding the legitimacy the fatwa was also common knowledge prescribed islamic law that the sentence was only applicable where the jurisdiction islamic law applies moreover the sentence has passed islamic court and executed the state machinery through the due process the law even islamic countries let alone non muslim lands individuals cannot take the law into their own hands the sentence when passed must carried out the state through the usual machinery and not individuals indeed becomes criminal act take the law into one own hands and punish the offender unless the process self defence moreover the offender must brought the notice the court and the court who shoud decide how deal with him this law applies equally muslim well non muslim territories agree fully with the above statement and precisely what meant previous statements about islam not being anarchist and the law not being enforcible despite the law being applicable hence such clarification from the ulama islamic scholars muslims britain before and after imam khomeini fatwa made very clear that since islamic law not applicable britain the hadd compulsory punishment cannot applied here disagree with this conclusion about the applicability the islamic law all muslims wherever they may the above conclusion does not strictly follow from the foregoing but only the conclusion that the fatwa cannot enforced according islamic law however agree that the punishment cannot applied rushdie even were well founded wow from the above looks like that from islamic viewpoint khomeini fatwa constitutes criminal act perhaps could even out limb and call khomeini criminal this basis certainly putting price the head rushdie britain criminal act according islamic law anyhow think understood knowledgeable muslims that khomeini fatwa islamically illegitimate least the basis expounded above others such myself and others who have posted here particularly umar khan and gregg jaeger think further and say that even the punishment constituted the fatwa against islamic law according our understanding yes gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote understanding that generally agreed upon the ulema islamic scholars that islamic law applies only islamic country which the not furthermore take the law into one own hands criminal act these are matters for the state not for individuals nevertheless khomeini offered cash prize for people take the law into their own hands something which understanding against islamic law yes this also understanding the majority islamic laws however believe there are also certain legal rulings which all five schools law sunni and jaffari can levelled against muslim non muslims both within and outside dar islam not know apostasy when accompanied active persistent and open hostility islam falls into this category the law know that historically apostasy has very rarely been punished all let alone the death penalty understanding that khomeini ruling was not based the law apostasy alone was well known that rushdie was apostate long before wrote the offending novel and certainly there precedent the qur hadith islamic history for indiscriminantly levelling death penalties for apostasy believe the charge levelled against rushdie was that fasad this ruling applies both within and outside the domain islamic state and can carried out individuals the reward was not offered khomeini but individuals within iran stuff deleted also think you are muddying the issue you seem assume that khomeini fatwa was issued due the distribution the book understanding that khomeini fatwa was issued response the writing and publishing the book view correct then your viewpoint that rushdie was sentenced for crime progress incorrect would concur that the thrust the fatwa from what remember was levelled the author and all those who assisted the publication the book however the charge fasad can encompass number lesser charges remember that when diplomatic relations broke off between britain and iran over the fatwa iran stressed that the condemnation the author and the removal the book from circulation were two preliminary conditions for resolving the crisis but you are correct point out that banning the book was not the main thrust behind the fatwa islamic charges such fasad are levelled people not books the rushdie situation was followed iran for several months before the issuance the fatwa rushdie went media blitz presenting himself lone knight guarding the sacred values secular democracy and mocking the foolish concerns people crazy enough actually hold their religious beliefs sacred fanning the flames and milking the controversy boost his image and push the book was everywhere the media then muslim demonstrators several countries were killed while protesting against the book rushdie appeared momentarily concerned then climbed back his media horse once again attack the muslims and defend his sacred rights was this point that the fatwa fasad was issued the fatwa was levelled the person rushdie any actions rushdie that feed the situation contribute the legitimization the ruling the book remains circulation not some independant will its own but the will the author and the publishers the fatwa against the person rushdie encompasses his actions well the crime was certainly crime progress many levels and was being played out and played the the full view the media not sure about this but think the charge shatim also applies rushdie and may encompassed under the umbrella the fasad ruling
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law what about the twelve imams who considered incapable error sin khomeini supports this view the twelve imans this heresy for the very reasons gave above would happy discuss the issue the imams with you although preference would move the discussion another newsgroup feel philosophy religion group would more appropriate the topic deeply embedded the world view islam and the esoteric teachings the prophet heresy does not enter into all except for those who see islam only exoteric religion that only nominally all concerned with the metaphysical substance man being and nature good introductory book fact one the best introductory books islam general murtaza mutahhari fundamental islamic thought god man and the universe mizan press translated campbell truly beautiful book follow book you can find decent translation wilaya the station the master the same author think also goes under the title master and mastership very small book really just transcription lecture the author the introduction the beautiful psalms islam translated william chittick available through muhammadi trust great britain also excellent introduction the subject have these books our university library imagine any well stocked university library will have them from your posts you seem fairly well versed sunni thought you should seek know shi ite thought through knowledgeable shi ite authors well least that much respect due before the charge heresy levelled salaam laikum
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article qif horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qialf fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article egl horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes stuff deleted the newsgroup large how about this for deal recognise that what happened former communist russia has much bearing the validity atheism has the doings sundry theists the validity their theism that zip nada none the fallacy known hominem and old one should the holy faq the book constructing logical argument apart from not making lot sense this wrong there atheist creed that taught any communist what the name atheism there clearly are theistic creeds and instructions how act for theists they all madly conflict with one another but that another issue lack instructions how act might also evil that like saying that since mathematics includes instructions how act evil atheism not moral system why should speak instructions how act atheism simply lack belief god plenty theists think one could argue the case for atheism causes whatever didn like about the former ussr with much validity theism causes genocide that say validity all think the argument that particular theist system causes genocide can made more convincingly than argument that atheism causes genocide this because theist systems contain instructions how act and one more these can shown cause genocide however since the atheist set instructions the null set how can you show that atheism causes genocide david choweller davec silicon csci csusb edu there are scores thousands human insects who are ready moment notice reveal the will god every possible subject george bernard shaw there are scores thousands human insects who are ready moment notice reveal the will god every possible subject george bernard shaw
alt.atheism	the nonexistance atheists article bskendigc jcwx jzn netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes quotes deleted really looks like these people have idea all what means atheist there are more bobby mozumder clones the world than thought well that explains some things posted soc religion islam with attached quote bobby the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum and asked was commonly held idea among muslims got response asking about the unknown guess karl lastly come china the hope all you touch and all you see fulfilling lifelong ambition all your life will ever dropping acid the great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even billion people believe
alt.atheism	some thoughts article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes appears that walla walla college will fill the same role alt atheist that allegheny college fills alt fan dan quayle first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself converts xtianity have this tendency excessively darken their pre xtian past frequently falsely anyone who embarks effort destroy xtianity suffering from deep megalomania defect which not cured religious conversion the arguements uses summing the book about whether jesus was god not know many you don believe but listen different perspective for all have something gain listening what others have say different perspective different perspective bwahahahahahahahah the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was sigh perhaps big was just mistaken about some his claims perhaps was normally insightful but had few off days perhaps many most the statements attributed jesus were not made him but were put into his mouth later authors other possibilities abound surely someone seriously examining this question could come with decent list possible alternatives unless the task not serious examination the question much less destroying xtianity but rather religious salesmanship some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie how many germans died for nazism how many russians died the name the proletarian dictatorship how many americans died make the world safe for democracy what silly question wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people everyone who performs healing god niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy probably hard draw entire nation you unless you are crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing anyone who convinced this laughable logic deserves xtian some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use don bother many the prophecies were fulfilled only the eyes xtian apologists who distort the meaning isaiah and other books
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism deletions apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes really don think you can imagine what like infinite first all infinity mathematical concept created humans explain certain things certain way don know actually applies reality don know anything the world infinite wouldn able comprehend what reality like for the programmer because that would require infinite memory whatever because reality continuous and based infinietely small units units you don know the universe actually continuous continuum another mathematical concept based infinity used explain things certain way because humans not know what infinite call something beyond numbers call endless but not know what have pretty good idea what infinity man made concept and like many man made concepts has evolved through time ancient greeks had different understanding can call allah infinitely powerful knowledgeable etc yet cannot imagine what allah actually because just cannot imagine what like infinite precicely don even know infinity applies reality sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes you are amazed that find difficult grasp when people justify death threats against rushdie with the claim was born muslim this empty rhetoric amazed your inability understand what saying not that you find difficult grasp when people justify death threats find amazing that your ability consider abstract questions isolation you seem believe the falsity principles the consequence their abuse you must hate physics you closer than you might imagine certainly despised living under the soviet regime when purported organize society according what they fondly imagined the objective conclusions marxist dialectic but don hate physics long some clown doesn start trying control life the assumption that are all interchangeable atoms rather than individual human beings jon
alt.atheism	little too satanic article mimsy umd edu mangoe umd edu charley wingate writes jeff west writes you claimed that people that took the time translate the bible would also take the time get right but here less than couple generations you been given ample proof agreed yourself above that the new versions tends out step with other modern translations what said was that people took time copy the text correctly translations present completely different issues why read the papers that the qumram texts had different versions some texts did misunderstand jon
alt.atheism	note bobby apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes insults about the atheistic genocide was totally unintentional under atheism anything can happen good bad including genocide and you know why this because you conveniently defined theist someone who can wrong and you defined people who wrong atheists the above statement circular not mention bigoting and such has value sami aario can you see measure atom yet you can explode tut one sunlight comprised many atoms your stupid minds stupid stupid eros plan from outer space disclaimer don agree with eros
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes stuff deleted what should demanding for khomeini and his ilk publicly come clean and show their proof that islamic law punishes apostacy with death that tolerates any similar form coversion freedom conscience all five schools law the best knowledge support the death sentence for apostasy when accompanied open persistent and aggravated hostility islam otherwise agree there legal support for punishment disbelief the qur makes clear that belief matter conscience public private disavowal islam conversion another faith not punishable there are some jurists who have gone against this trend and insisted that apostasy punishable even death but historically they are the exception cursing and insulting the prophets falls under the category shatim just borrowed book from the library khomeini fatwa etc lots stuff deleted and according the above analysis looks like khomeini offering reward for rushdie death fact constitutes criminal act according islamic law please see post under yet more rushdie islamic law
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes looking historical evidence such perfect utopian islamic states didn survive agree people are people and even you might start islamic revolution and create this perfect state takes some time and the internal corruption will destroy the ground rules again nothing perfect nothing perpetual even perfect isn going stay that way forever perpetual machines cannot exist thought that there were some laws mechanics thermodynamics stating that not atheist naren bala software evaluation engineer home work all standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	political atheists article apr news wesleyan edu ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu scott sauyet says are these his final words and how many here would find that appropriate just that finals got the way keep your fingers crossed why should keep fingers crossed doubt would anything martin schulte
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article qkq horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable base this the assumption that everyone the world were deprived utterly their freedom that their every act was contrary their volition almost all would want complain therefore take that assert believe that freedom not very valuable when almost everyone can see that every bit absurd assert not raining rainy day take this candidate for objective value and necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such this exist own personal and highly subjective opinion that freedom good thing however when here people assert that the only true freedom following the words this and that messiah realise that people don even agree the meaning the word what does mean say that word represents objective value when word has objective meaning jon
alt.atheism	where are they now article innf senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes wow leave your terminal for few months and everyone you remember goes away how depressing actually there are few familiar faces out there counting bob and kent but don seem recognize anyone else has anyone heard from graham matthews recently has gotten his degree and sailed for greener pastures which brings the point posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since done damnedest stay top the newsgroup but when you fall behind you really fall behind still not bad rec arts startrek used but digress has anyone tried keep with the deluge inquiring minds want know also does anyone keep track where the more infamous posters alt atheism end once they leave the newsgroup just curious guess cheers tom bruno one those people who always willl have unlimited stores unfounded respect for people who have been newsgroups mailing lists longer than have you certainly have sympathy tom have only been semi regularly posting toughto keep since this february but have been reading and following the threads since last august school newsreader was down for months and our incompetent computing services never bothered find new feed site wasn accepting outgoing postings don think anyone keeps track where other posters that old love and leave internet for you again best regards adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	some thoughts article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian that okay what all the rest them who come here say makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself this isn the guy who was lawyer was could you give more info this guy never mind sure there will plenty responses this post and will appear there the arguements uses summing the book about whether jesus was god not know many you don believe but listen different perspective for all have something gain listening what others have say this true make sure true for all cases the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy why not both modern day koresh was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar why not die for lie you were poverty stricken and alunatic sounds perfecetly reasoable whether the societal dregs had for followers would able tell was liar not not necessarily even died for what believed this still makes him completely selfish like all what the difference people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people there historical proof this see earlier threads besides least his name have been the cause enough deaths make for whatever healing gave niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy sieg heil very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away who david koresh curious therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing how does this follow your definition lunatic and disproof thereof seem rather uhhh shaky some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use good idea don think most people understand what christian certainly not what see lot churches naturally those not true christians right rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake loved enough die and save should the same hey can god himself inspires turn our lives over him that tuff and most people don want real christian would something for the strong persevere but just like weight lifting guitar playing drums whatever takes time don rush one day christianity your whole life not going church once week helping poor people once while box everything into time units such work this time sports social life god above these boxes and should carried with into all these boxes that have created for ourselves someone else handle this don know worth sigh adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article apr nuscc nus cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes article cva uxa ecn bgu edu gsu uxa ecn bgu edu eric molas wrote christianity infectious cult the reasons flourishes are because gives people without hope driven purpose life safety blanked hide behind wow all have follow this christian moral standard and get eternal happiness agree that many cases primitive emotional feelings based haha you won laugh hell mentalities makes certain religions very attractive for certain personalities agree with both but would like make small point xtianity other dogmatic religions not only attract people without hope etc but also attract average people well believe that xtainity thru its escapist doctrines absolutist attitudes provides great psychological shelter from day day frustrations unhappiness fear uncertainty unknown etc this good point but think average people not take christianity much out fear escapism but quite simply way improve their social life get more involved with american culture they are kids immigrants for example since the overwhelming major religion the western world some form other simply the choice people take they are bored and want something new with their lives but not somethong too new too out the ordinary seems little weak but long doesn hurt anybody the buddha had something say about the attractiveness religions when driven fear man worships sacred mountains sacred stones and sacred trees however the buddha also said somebody finds peace any religion let him these are good quotes and agree with both them but let make sure alter the scond one that includes something like let him long not preventing others from finding their peace something like that course suppose someone were really peace there would need for inflicting evangelism personally feel that since religion have such poweful psychological effect should let theists but the problem that religions cause enormous harm non believers and humanity whole holy wars inquisitions inter religious hatred impedence science intellectual progress them attitudes etc etc need say more really don know what can about them any comments well sure thing will have live with them all our lives their popularity seems come and remember when first entered high school was atheist always had been and were about friends this time those have converted always christianity they were all also immigrants from taiwan sons immigrants hence earlier gross generalization christianity seems lot more popular people now than ever has before since been noticing maybe just perceptions that are chagning who knows for one perfectly willing live and let live with them long have some set abstract rights agreements how should treat each other have desire hurt them their notions for all the well put arguments this usenet never does any good argumentation does not really seem apply christians even some atheists must simply step the person takes naturally almost instinctively best regards adam john cooper verily often have laughed the weaklings who thought themselves good simply because acooper macalstr edu they had claws the unenlightened one buddhism has the characteristics what would tan chade meng expected cosmic religion for the future singapore transcends personal god avoids dogmas and theology cmtan iss nus covers both the natural spiritual and based religious sense aspiring from the experience all things natural and spiritual meaningful unity einstein
alt.atheism	where are they now your posting provoked into checking save file for memorable posts the first captured was ken arromdee feb the subject atheist too that was article here your question was article which average about articles day for the last three years others have noted the current posting rate such that kill file depressing large among the posting saved the early days were articles from the following notables from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky interesting bunch wonder where geoff arnold nfs architect sun select geoff arnold east sun com what they made the whole thing the great lie four guys two thousand years ago over wine the tear garden
alt.atheism	political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes think that you are confusing the words objective and inherent and objective system simply one which outside observer who given the postulates the system could perfectly judge any situation action consistent with the system right not wrong you seem objecting because the goals the system are not inherent that you seem want define objective system one which the postulates themselves could determined some outside observer don think that this good definition objective system then you need learn english really gravity objective system anybody can learn what and perform experiments they will get the same results every other person who has performed those experiments gravity inherent system you don need any excess information other than observations determine anything possible objectively determine someone guilt innocence within non inherent system agree that morality not necessarily inherent unless you state that everything has evolutionary basis but this does not mean that cannot objective theory this natural morality not objective system evidenced your comments about lions and mine perhaps can objective but not inherent anyway noted before the practices related mating rituals etc among the animals are likely the only ones considered immoral under the previous definitions the natural law therefore some revisions are order since the class activities surrounding mating seem pose some general problems and fact the only way that the postulates could determined outsider would there were some sort higher truth like some sort god something but not think that god necessary for objective system while seems that you what are you trying say here seens that you are objecting the notion objective system because perhaps you think that would imply inherence which would necessitate some sort grand design have classified behavior most animals line with moral system certainly possible for animals commit acts which are outside their rules ethics but they don seem very often perhaps they are not intelligent enough immoral and perhaps because you have yet define moral system think have code ethics which basically defines undesired behaviors etc immoral behavior could unwanted unproductive destructive etc depending the goal the system that immoral what end keith
alt.atheism	political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes natural morality may specifically thought code ethics that certain species has developed order survive wait are talking about ethics morals here the distinction important see this countless times the animal kingdom and such natural system the basis for our own system well huh well our moral system seems mimic the natural one number ways order for humans thrive seem need live groups here your problem seem need what wrong with the highlighted word don know what wrong possible for humans survive for long time the wild yes possible but difficult humans are social animal and that cause our success and order for group function effectively needs some sort ethical code this statement not correct isn why don you think and pointing out that species conduct serves propogate itself not trying give you your tautology but trying show that such are examples moral systems with goal propogation the species goal natural system morality anybody who lives monagamous relationship not moral after all order ensure propogation the species every man should impregnate many women possible noted earlier lack mating such abstinence homosexuality isn really destructive the system worst neutral for that matter herds horses only the dominate stallion mates when dies killed whatever the new dominate stallion the only one who mates these seems case your natural system morality trying shoot itself the figurative foot again the mating practices are something reexamined keith
alt.atheism	political atheists kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes but chimps are almost human does this mean that chimps have moral will well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior keith
alt.atheism	political atheists sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes how you then explain sudden violent behavior human beings your theory would state that the more the human detached from primitive behavior the more violent and non moralistic the human becomes please correct understanding was wrong you have this bifurcation point where madman killing people from the roof campus could you explain how your theory explains such situation madmen are mad try explain the output from broken computer think not keith
alt.atheism	political atheists bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes show that the examples and others have provided are not counter examples your supposed inherent moral hypothesis you have successfully argue that domestication removes alters this morality think that domestication will change behavior large degree domesticated animals exhibit behaviors not found the wild don think that they can viewed good representatives the wild animal kingdom since they have been bred for thousands years produce certain behaviors etc keith
alt.atheism	political atheists mmwang adobe com michael wang writes well have typed the oed definitions you will note upon reading them punishment being inanimate object incapable showing mercy you can not say that merciless punishment cruel one sorry you must have missed the stuff parens when you read the definition where transf transferred sense and fig figurative things can cruel samples text from the first definition include because would not see thy cruell nailes plucke out his poore old eyes and the puniness man the centre cruel and frowning universe sure nails can cruel imagine nails your eyes would very painful but this does not imply that painless death cruel which what you are supposed trying show keith
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality sfnntrc wbo lruk andrew cmu edu david sacco dsav andrew cmu edu writes after tons mail could move this discussion alt religion yes mac there are many here among who feel that life but joke bob dylan you were happy every day your life you wouldn human being you game show host taken from the movie heathers lecture lek chur process which the notes the professor become the notes the student without passing through the minds either michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality qjahh mrs horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article pww spac rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes article qie fkt horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer wrote objective morality morality built from objective values but where those objective values come from how can measure them what mediated thair interaction with the real world moralon scalar valuino field science the real world has its basis values not the other way round you would wish there such thing objective value then science can not objectively said more useful than kick the head simple theories with accurate predictions could not objectively said more useful than set tarot cards you like those conclusions don and how know they exist the first place one assumes objective reality one doesn know frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon how measure truth beauty goodness love friendship trust honesty etc things have basis objective fact then aren limited what know true can say that can examples instances reason but cannot measure reason that semantics mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes good logic better than bad good science better than bad definition great good okay bad horrible better worse good defined being better than bad how come with this setup this subjective enough people agreed could switch the order isn this defining one unknown thing another that good that which better than bad and bad that which worse than good circular mac only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality lsran inn exodus eng sun com emarsh hernes sun eng sun com eric marsh writes article hqxj jdg cso uiuc edu lis cso uiuc edu lis student writes hmmmm define objective morality well depends upon who you talk some say means you can have your hair over your ears and others say means stryper acceptable would say that general principles objective morality would listed one two places ten commandments sayings jesus the first depends whether you trust the bible the second depends both whether you think jesus god and whether you think have accurate copies the gong take moment and look what you just wrote first you defined objective morality and then you qualified this objective morality with subjective justifications you see the error this sorry you have just disqualified yourself but please play again mac eric huh please explain there problem because based morality something that could wrong gosh there heck lot stuff that believe that could wrong and that comes from sources that could wrong what you base your belief atheism your knowledge and reasoning couldn that wrong mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	islamic genocide pick former yugoslavia instead and say their problems are caused communism doesn really matter but guess religious leaders are calling for end that too can religiously motivated this despite the fact that the christians carve crosses dead muslims chests maybe they just want land maybe its something else they want maybe the cross carvings are just accidental don know just looks suspicious most likely the tragic situation bosnia combination ethnical and religious motives where religion just one attribute that separates the groups from each other but must agree that the sad saga bosnia terrible example case where religion not helping instead used weapon against other humans and sympathies are mostly the bosnian side looks like the serbs are the oppressors willing use even christianity weapon against their former friends cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists the death penalty was conceived deterrent crime but the legal shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court battles etc have relegated that purpose very small part what should hence the question instate the death penalty was meant and see that deters crime get rid entirely doubt the death penalty was supposed deterrent crime why doesn every crime carry death penalty that would effictive wouldn the death penalty punishment much like fine for speeding punishment anyway somebody with murder the mind doesn much care about the consequences think another problem that people dont think they will get caught wanted kill another person wouldn care what the penalty was didn think would get caught was strictly deterrent should have been more along the lines torture dave fuller dfuller portal videocart com
alt.atheism	thoughts christians cmtan iss nus tan chade meng dan writes personally feel that since religion have such poweful psychological effect should let theists but the problem that religions cause enormous harm non believers and humanity whole holy wars inquisitions inter religious hatred impedence science intellectual progress them attitudes etc etc need say more really don know what can about them any comments have always held that there should attempt change persons attitude lifestyle long makes them happy and does not tax anybody else this seems for atheists you don get atheist knocking your door stopping you the airport handing out literature social event theists seem think that thier form happy should work for others and try make sister born again and she was real thorn the side for entire family for several years she finally got the clue that she couldn help during that period she bought was atheist now xtian books for birthday and xmas several times our birthday cards would contain verses was problem told mom that was going send sister atheist piece reading material got don you dare mom wasn religious why did she insist that not send because our society has driven into that religion preach non religion should self contained what crock shit finally told sister that didn find her way life attractive have seen exactly effort from her trying convert since then sick religious types being pampered looked out for and worst all respected more than atheists there must end sight dave fuller dfuller portal videocart com
alt.atheism	bible quiz kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes would you mind mailing the questions with the pairs answers would love have them for the next time theist comes door like this too maybe you should post answer key after while nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu better coward for minute than dead for the rest your life
alt.atheism	why the bible one thing think interesting about alt athiesm the fact that without bible thumpers and their ilk this would much duller newsgroup almost needs the deluded masses write silly things for athiests tear apart well that little tidbit aside here what really wanted write about how can anyone believe such sorry document the bible you want religious aren there more plausable books out there seriously the bible was written multiple authors who repeatedly contradict each other one minute tells you kill your kid talks back and the next says not kill all think that xtians really want follow deity they should pick one that can consistent unlike the last one they invented for people who say jesus was the son god didn god say not ever put anyone else before him looks like you did just that didn god say not make any symbols idols what are crosses then don you think that you fact believe the bible that you are rather far off track was jesus illiterate why didn write anything anyone know honestly hope that people who believe the bible understand that just one the religious texts out there and that one the poorer quality ones boot the only reason xtianity escaped the middle east because certain roman who wine was poisoned with lead made all rome xtian after bad dream this posting keeps one person just one person from standing streetcorner and telling people they are going hell will happy only hatred and snap judgements can guide your robots through life clayton forester mad scientist
alt.atheism	political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes how many contridictions you want see good question claim something general trend then disprove this guess you have show that was not general trend you going claim something then you prove think cold fusion well provided examples show that the trend was general and you others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding mating practices etc don think that these few cases are enough disprove the general trend natural morality and again the mating practices need reexamined try find immoral non mating related activities you excluding mating related activities from your natural morality but mating practices are special case have think about some more yes think that the natural system can objectively deduced with the goal species propogation mind but not equating the two you think that objective system isn necessarily the natural one are you are you not the man who wrote natural moral system the objective moral system that most animals follow indeed but while the natural system objective all objective systems are not the natural one the terms can not equated the natural system subset the objective ones now since homosexuality has been observed most animals including birds and dolphins are you going claim that most animals have the capacity being immoral don claim that homosexuality immoral isn harmful although isn helpful either the mating process and when you say that homosexuality observed the animal kingdom don you mean bisexuality because can determine what end should moral are you claiming group usually implies more than one entity this standard jargon read any textbook the forms are used throughout well saying that these goals are not inherent that why they must postulates because there not really way determine them otherwise although could argued that they arise from the natural goal but they are somewhat removed postulate assume posit that right the goals themselves aren inherent can create theory with postulate that the sun revolves around the earth that the moon actually made green cheese and the stars are the portions angels that intrudes into three dimensional reality you could but such would contradict observations can build mathematical proof with postulate that given the length one side triangle the length second side the triangle and the degree angle connecting them can determine the length the third side but postulate something that generally always found true don think your postulate would valid guess which one people are going more receptive order assume something about your system you have able show that your postulates work yes and think the goals survival and happiness work you think they don are they not good goals keith
alt.atheism	new member article hiew portal videocart com dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes hello just started reading this group today and think going large participant its daily postings liked the section the faq about constructing logical arguments well done atheist but not try turn other people into atheists only try figure why people believe the way they don much care they have different view than when comes down could wrong willing admit the possibility something religious followers dont seem have the capability happy aboard dave fuller dfuller portal videocart com welcome the official keeper the list nicknames that people are known alt atheism didn know had such list did you your have been awarded the nickname buckminster the next time you post article sign with your nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having say you sorry copeland god dead and the actor plays his part sting his words fear will find their way place your heart history without the voice reason every faith its own curse will teach without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article hkv epv blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes judaism for one maddi has confirmed this for one and again reiterate that one can easily leave the religion any time simply making public declaration one too lazy that then the religion cannot held responsible there are many islamic countries where publically renouncing islam can quite dangerous these countries might not according you necessarily practicing true islam but the danger still remains one cannot blame failure publically renounce islam laziness opposed desire stay alive and well course you planning pull rushdie then declaring one leaving the religion little concerned about compared one other plans rushdie case the one under discussion one can tragic that some islamic countries this there are however islamic countries whose constitutions contains statements that islamic law incorporated kuwait where one can freely make such statements without fear not mention that has already been pointed out that rushdie has said his books that not muslim and there have surely been enough readers his books provide the appropriate number witnesses this story has become tiresome the conditions are clear you care make your point clear then make chronology and show that had made public statements about leaving islam prior his writing tsv did make such statements then should have made that clear rather than trying rejoin islam talking about his personal feelings gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy edu wrote khomenei was jerk and were plenty british leaders what the qur the basis judgement khomenei was clearly heretic the standards the qur end story could you little more specific exactly why khomanei was heretic and jerk judged the koran have liking for the guy but far know has done nothing contrary the teachings the koran least told several iranian research students that share office with easy and convenient for you denounce him but have the feeling that your views are not clear cut and widely accepted you suggest have made this clear elsewhere but will again khomeini put price the head someone another country this makes him jerk well international outlaw khomeini advocates the view that there was series twelve islamic leaders the twelve imams who are free error sin this makes him heretic the qur muhammad chastised for error directly god the qur says that muhammad the greatest example proper islamic behavior thus muslim free from error usual there seems almost many islamic viewpoints there are muslims perhaps seems you but this hardly the case there widespread agreement about matters islam there certainly are many viewpoints issues which are not particularly islamic and themselves but this for any large group people under the same name all comes back the koran being imprecise its wording the qur not particularly imprecise wording though true that several interpretations are possible the interpretations many words however entire text the qur makes its meanings precise enough for intelligent people free from power lust come agreement about them gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy edu wrote well seemed slightly incongruous find the union jack flying city hall belfast may ask why there not because the british want there just one big expensive problem there because that what the majority the population want there some problem with that the majority those who can open their mouths public perhaps there seems quite alot incentive for the british have control like using the north channel and irish sea waste dump was appalled the dumping saw the harbor belfast understanding that quite alot radioactivity enters the water quite problem got its independence from britain and then stopped accepting the waste are you suggesting that british industry isn making profit off the situation well gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy edu wrote could you please explain what way the qur your eyes carries the excess baggage another era the qur opinion carries such baggage how about trying run modern economy without charging interest loans from what hear even fundamentalist iran having compromise this ideal which sort loans and what have you heard exactly gregg
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere jon grow childish propagandist gregg
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes gregg jaeger jaeger buphy edu wrote and western countries isn legal concept all not the slightest bit pertinent the topic which british author living the united kingdom under the protection british law yes keep forgetting governments are superior entities religious organizations forgive the gun the higher law this degenerating zumder logic course governments are superior entities they are elected the people whereas religious leaders certainly are not perhaps not christianity but islam the choice religious leaders made the people much for your superiority argument those who the people trust make the law obviously represents the higher law that democracy democracy basic element islam learn that one ever notice that the called fundamentalists algeria who are being repressed the secular government won free and democratic elections gregg
alt.atheism	free moral agency article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject free moral agency date apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes the old testement satan rarely mentioned all huh doesn the sda bible contain the book job this why there suffering the world are caught inthe crossfire and sometimes innocents well teh guilty get hurt that opinion and hope cleared few things seems like your omnipotent and omniscient god has got some splainin then did just create satan for shits and giggles bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea didn say never mentioned satan said rarely all please excuse for lack perfect memory omnipotence tammy soory sound cranky apoplogize now before anyone feelings get hurt
alt.atheism	note bobby article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes from mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough subject note bobby date wed apr gmt article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes madhausc ckip netcom com madhaus netcom com maddi hausmann writes mark how much you really know about vegetarian diets the problem not some vitamins balancing proteins there also one vitamin that cannot obtained from non animal products and this only concern vegans who eat meat dairy eggs believe and the only problem supplements are available for vegans yes the does come from animal products you are ovo lacto vegetarian diet eat dairy and eggs this not issue didn see the original posting but yes know about vegetarian diets considering that several close friends are devout vegetarians and have take vitamin supplements was one the ones was thinking has been long time since read the article once saw talking about the special dietary needs vegetarians didn quote full numbers considering how nice this place can also come from whole grain rice understand some brands here australia and other places too sure get the the tablets from whole grain rice are you sure those aren enriched type know basically rice and soybeans get almost everything you need but hadn heard any rice having just thought contribute different issue from the norm you should have contributed the programming thread earlier fred rice darice yoyo monash edu one vegan vegetarian taht eats animal products eggs milk cheese etc after about years vegan diet you need start taking supplements because found only animals acutally our bodies make think but our bodies use our own after years lacto oveo vegetarians like myself still get through milk products and eggs don need supplements and anyone knows more please post nearly contridicting myself with the mish mash knowledge gleaned tammy
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes you are saying that isn possible for instinctive act moral one that order for act act morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard saying that order for act moral immoral somebody someone something must consider that implies intelligence not instinct who has consider the being that does the action still not sure know what you are trying say keith
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes you are saying that isn possible for instinctive act moral one like think that many things are possible explain how instinctive acts can moral acts and happy listen for example were instinctive not murder that order for act act morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard weaker than that there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives only intelligent beings can moral even the bahavior other beings mimics theirs and how much emphasis you place intelligence animals the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don are you trying say that this isn act morality because most animals aren intelligent enough think like keith
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes don expect the lion know not know anything the kind fact don have any evidence that lions ever consider such issues and that course why don think you can assign moral significance the instinctive behaviour lions what been saying that moral behavior likely the null behavior that doesn take much work moral but certainly does immoral some cases also said that morality remnant evolution our moral system based concepts well practiced the animal kingdom you are basically saying that you think moral undefinable term and that moral systems don exist can agree definition these terms then how can hope discuss them perfectly clear that saying that know what moral system but that can speak for other people but this doesn get anywhere your particular beliefs are irrelevant unless you can share them discuss them keith
alt.atheism	was cruel was political atheists sdoe nmsu edu stephen doe writes course some later time think that the death penalty cruel unusual will outlawed but the present most people don seem think this way this from the same fellow who speaks objective natural morality suppose that the majority decides slavery then longer immoral did not claim that our system was objective keith
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article bcc ics uci edu bvickers ics uci edu brett vickers writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes well seeing you are not muslim the sort fatwa issued khomeini would not relevant you can understand your fear persecution and share even more than you being muslim however rushdie behavior was not completely excusable why should fatwa issued khomeini relevant anyone who doesn live iran issued khomeini shouldn relevant anyone but issued honest and learned scholar islam would relevant any muslim would contrary islamic law which all muslims are required respect who that decides whether rushdie behavior excusable anyone sufficiently well versed islamic law and capable reasoning you are talking about weak sense excuse depends what sense excuse you have mind and who cares you think inexcusable only someone who thinks opinion important obviously obviously you don care nor care that you don care gregg
alt.atheism	free moral agency and kent article sandvik sandvik kent apple com sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes from sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik subject free moral agency and kent date thu apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy wrote ezekiel says your hart was filled with pride because all your beauty you corrupted your wisdom for the sake your splendor therefore have cast you down the the ground and exposed you helpless before the curious gaze kings for those you who are bible scholars you knowthat the verses refer the prince tyre this prophesy about and addressed the human prince verses refer the king tyre which term for satan tammy what the rationale connect the prince tyre with satan could you give more rational bible cites thanks afraid that this not the case your thinking model falls apart like house cards but let see cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net the time ezekiel was written israel was apostacy again and not mistaken tyre was about make war israel like said the prince tyre was the human ruler tyre was wicked man calling satan the king tyre ezekiel was saying that satan the real ruler over tyre don think interpretation neccessarily the orthodox christian one although most christian bible commentaries interpret the king tyre being reference satan haven read ezekiel throughly long time tammy
alt.atheism	free moral agency and jeff clark article dfc dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes from dbstu benedikt rosenau subject free moral agency and jeff clark date thu apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes deletion you also said why did millions suffer for what adam and did seems pretty sick way going about creating universe gonna respond giving small theology lesson forgive used theology major first all believe that this planet involved cosmic struggle the great controversy betweed christ and satan borrowed book title god has consider the interests the entire universe when making decisions deletion universe has created the way can you tell why less tyrannic let one one own creatures what likes others your definitions your god has created satan with full knowledge what would happen including every choice satan can you explain what free will and how goes along with omniscience didn your god know everything that would happen even before created the world why concerned about being tyrant when noone would care everything was fine for them that the whole idea comes from the possibility abuse power something your god introduced according your description the way are you sure that you have read the faq especially the part about preaching benedikt don feel that preaching just trying answer people questions and talking about religion beliefs when comes what post don with the intent converting anyone don expect for the atheists this newsgroup take what say with grain salt they wish just state what beleve they ask how believeit and why and all that preaching then soory and get off the soapbox tammy
alt.atheism	pompous ass arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes look not the one that made those nazi comparisons other people compared what the religious people are doing now nazi germany they have said that started out with little things but one really knew about any these little things strangely enough and grew bigger things they said that the motto but one the little things you just contradicted yourself the motto one those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning you huh the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren going waste their time repeating them sounds like one knew either looked some books but avail that going pave the way for other intrusions course the motto hasn caused problems its year history then doubt going has caused problems you just ignore every instance when someone describes one you has caused problems again one has shown that things were better before the motto that they likely better after don think the motto initiates any sort harassment harassment will occur whether not the motto present keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes think you should support your first claim that people will simply harass matter what doubt this true think some the theists will loss and that enough reason for because god trust motto the coins and the coins are representation the government christians are given ammunition here slander atheists unpatriotic should ban the ammunition why not get rid the guns and yes have heard this used conversation with christians sure they may fall back other things but this one they should not have available use worse than others the national anthem should changed too god bless america the list goes imagine the next year set coins were labeled with the motto god dead certainly such statement coins would offend almost every christian and tempted rub that motto the face christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring then you better than the people you despise any statement printed item that represents the government endorsement the government the coin motto endorsement trusting god endorsement acknowledgement think gods are things that people are proud but don think the motto encourages belief don particularly feel like trusting god the government putting down with every coin prints for the motto legitimate would have read god gods godlessness trust would you approve such motto whether the motto was intended anti atheist not turns open invitation use anti atheist tool and removing the tool will solve the problem will increase the problem keith
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes want know how this omniscient being going perform the feat definitely terming actions right wrong you were omniscient you know who exactly did what and with what purpose mind then with particular goal mind you sould able methodically judge whether not this action was accordance with the general goal don think you show the existence any objective moral system they exist but practice they are difficult perfectly emulate mean you understand the concept objective system right thought you were explaining certainly don understand what you are explaining objective system there are known goals then actions are judged either being compatible with these goals not simple the problem with most systems current practice that the goals differ that the goals each society are different note that objective system not necessarily inherent one the concept innocence dependent whether certain actions are right wrong and this depends the moral system but have objective system then someone can deemed innocent not quite easily omniscient person anyway think cleared the recursive definition murder because one complaining about don think solves anything speculate where would did have objective moral system the question still whether you can even say what one said many many times and for what worth don think you cleared anything concerning murder which part you have problem with what you mean harmed harm you have spend your existence metabolising food for another species most moral systems would considered only within species okay for enslave other animals right but not humans course ideally perhaps wouldn even have bother any other animals one the first point wrong enslave humans according persoanl moral system the second point vegetarian but can enslave the animals right but just not kill them are you vegetarian for health reasons are you vegetarian fail see how personal views are relevant anyway wrong eat animals your personal moral system course not seems perfectly valid kill members other species for food might nice though the other animals were not made suffer for instance cow field lives out its life just about the same way would the wild they seem happy enough however the veal youngsters aren treated very well how about objective moral system don know what the goal this particular system there inherent system how about natural moral system nope again seems okay kill other species for food keith
alt.atheism	who are judge bobby article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes from kmr cwru edu keith ryan subject who are judge bobby date thu apr gmt mozumder writes tammy healy writes would like take the liberty quote from christian writer named ellen white hope that what she said will help you edit your remarks this group the future not set yourself standard not make your opinions your views duty your interpretations scripture criterion for others and your heart condemn them they not come your ideal thoughts fromthe mount blessing point point you have taken upon yourself judge others when only god the true judge only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible agree totally with you amen you stated better and less world than did tammy
alt.atheism	some thoughts article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject some thoughts keywords dan bissell date apr gmt article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself this should good fun been while since the group has had such ripe opportunity gut gill and fillet some poor bastard well off get the popcorn bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea hope you not going flame him please give him the same coutesy you given tammy
alt.atheism	who are judge bobby article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes from snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder subject who are judge bobby date wed apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes bobby would like take the liberty quote from christian writer named ellen white hope that what she said will help you edit your remarks this group the future not set yourself standard not make your opinions your views duty your interpretations scripture criterion for others and your heart condemn them they not come your ideal thoughts fromthe mount blessing hope quoting this doesn make the atheists gag but think ellen white put better than could tammy point peace bobby mozumder point that you set your views the only way believe saying that all eveil this world caused atheism ridiculous and counterproductive dialogue this newsgroups see your posts spirit condemnation the atheists this newsgroup bacause they don believe exactly you you here try convert the atheists here you failing miserably who wants position constantly defending themselves agaist insulting attacks like you seem like sorry you blind that you didn get the messgae the quote everyone else has seemed tammy
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article apr leland stanford edu rush leland stanford edu voelkerding writes worry about the one case more where innocent man convicted something horrible enough warrant the death penalty and hence put laws into place which make virtually impossible actually execute real criminals then the death penalty not serving its original purpose should either changed done away with don have numbers back this take the following accordingly you use off the cuff number innocent people sentenced die acceptable loss for the benefit capital punishment very very surprised the ratio were that low there have been approximately dozen known cases the execution the innocent the since the turn the century have that same period sentenced people death accounting for those cases that don know the truth seems reasonable assume that twice that many innocent people have fact been executed that would raise the number death sentences metered out since half million for your acceptance ratio hold rather doubt that the case the point course what acceptable loss seems probably not doing even that well should perhaps find better solution bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com any suggestions what better solution might realize the off hand nature the numbers used and can answer what acceptable loss rate however said another post despise the idea supporting criminals for life the economics the situation that concern most the money spent feeding clothing housing and taking care people who have demonstrated that they are unfit live society could number places all which and probably others would consider far more worthwhile and which would enrish the lives all americans give people jobs give the homeless shelter any number things clyde little girls like butterflies don need reason robert heinlein
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was was just convinced religious fantasies the time that was the messiah was just some rebel leader that organisation jews built into godhood for the purpose off throwing the yoke roman oppression some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie are the moslem fanatics who strap bombs their backs and driving into jewish embassies dying for the truth hint they think they are were the nazi soldiers wwii dying for the truth people die for lies all the time wouldn people able tell was liar people was hitler liar how about napoleon mussolini ronald reagan spend millions dollars year trying find techniques detect lying the answer they wouldn able tell was liar only lied about some things gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people why you think healed people because the bible says but god doesn exist the other possibility then the bible not divinely inspired and one can use piece evidence was written unbiased observers niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example were hitler mussolini lunatics how about genghis khan jim jones there are thousands examples through history people being drawn lunatics anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing obviously cannot rule out liar lunatic not mention all the other possibilities not given this triad some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal possibly self fulfilling prophecy was aware what should order fulfil these prophecies possibly selective diting behalf those keepers the holy bible for thousand years before the general public had access possibly also that the text written such riddles like nostradamus that anything that happens can twisted fit the words raving fictional prophecy and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use stuff about how hard christian deleted severely recommend you reconsider the reasons you are christian they are very unconvincing unbiased observer jeff
alt.atheism	political atheists article ajinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes but chimps are almost human does this mean that chimps have moral will well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior the verb must was warned about that one back kindergarten why must they have such laws jon
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian know shouldn get involved but bit deleted the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing righto dan try this one with your cornflakes the book says that muhammad was either liar was crazy modern day mad mahdi was actually who said was some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing how his son law made the sun stand still call fool but believe did make the sun stand still niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn the mad mahdi obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing ron house usq house helios usq edu toowoomba australia
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere jon grow childish propagandist gregg really sorry having pointed out that practice things aren quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem claim them upsets you but exactly who being childish here open question bbci was example islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet they weren real islamic owners and operators and yet actually turned out long running and quite ruthless operation steal money from small and often quite naive depositors and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest motivated western bank down the street could that they believed islamically owned and operated bank couldn possibly cheat them please don try con into thinking that will all work out right next time jon
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists article sninn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes you are saying that isn possible for instinctive act moral one like think that many things are possible explain how instinctive acts can moral acts and happy listen for example were instinctive not murder then not murdering would have moral significance since there would nothing voluntary about that order for act act morality the person must consider the immoral action but then disregard weaker than that there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives only intelligent beings can moral even the bahavior other beings mimics theirs you are starting get the point mimicry not necessarily the same the action being imitated parrot saying pretty polly isn necessarily commenting the pulchritude polly and how much emphasis you place intelligence see above animals the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don they and other posters have given you many examples exactly this but you seem have very short memory are you trying say that this isn act morality because most animals aren intelligent enough think like saying there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives right there the posting you are replying jon
alt.atheism	moraltiy was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes what act morally for particular reason then moral what morality instinctive most animals saying that morality instinctive animals attempt assume your conclusion which conclusion you conclusion correct err that the behaviour which instinctive animals natural moral system see are disagreeing the definition moral here earlier you said that must conscious act your definition instinctive behavior pattern could act morality you are trying apply human terms non humans think that even someone not conscious alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral you don think that morality behavior pattern what human morality moral action one that consistent with given pattern that enforce certain behavior moral you keep getting this backwards you are trying show that the behaviour pattern morality whether morality behavior pattern irrelevant since there can behavior pattern for example the motions the planets that most all people would not call morality try show but your definition can shown and morality can thought large class princples could defined terms many things the laws physics you wish however seems silly talk moral planet because obeys the laws phyics less silly talk about animals they have least some free will keith
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes this whole thread started because discussion about whether not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which forbidden the constitution yes but they didn say what they meant cruel which why you have the supreme court and makes sense refer the constitution which quite silent the meaning the word cruel they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient but were discussing the death penalty and that discussion resulted from the one about murder which resulted from intial discussion about objective morality this already three times removed from the morality discussion actually were discussing the mening the word cruel and the constitution says nothing about that but were discussing relation the death penalty and the constitution need not define each the words within anyone who doesn know what cruel can look the dictionary and did keith
alt.atheism	political atheists kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes that just what you thought the theory meant while all humans are generally capable overpowering their instincts does not follow that those who this often are necessarily more intelligent why aren animals generally capable overpowering their instincts good question sure some biologist could answer better than but animals brains are just set differently animals can trained but they instincts serve them well there reason contradict them keith
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists article inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes don expect the lion know not know anything the kind fact don have any evidence that lions ever consider such issues and that course why don think you can assign moral significance the instinctive behaviour lions what been saying that moral behavior likely the null behavior that doesn take much work moral but certainly does immoral some cases that the craziest thing ever heard are you serious doesn take much work moral also said that morality remnant evolution really and that why people discuss morality daily basis because kind evolutionary hangover like your little toe our moral system based concepts well practiced the animal kingdom this must some novel use the phrase based with which not sufficiently familiar what you mean based and what the significance for your argument you are basically saying that you think moral undefinable term and that moral systems don exist can agree definition these terms then how can hope discuss them perfectly clear that saying that know what moral system but that can speak for other people but this doesn get anywhere your particular beliefs are irrelevant unless you can share them discuss them well can what would you like know about particular moral beliefs you raise topic never considered quite happy invent moral belief out thin air jon
alt.atheism	pompous ass article jiinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee writes look not the one that made those nazi comparisons other people compared what the religious people are doing now nazi germany they have said that started out with little things but one really knew about any these little things strangely enough and grew bigger things they said that the motto but one the little things you just contradicted yourself the motto one those little things that nobody has bothered mentiopning you huh the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren going waste their time repeating them sounds like one knew either looked some books but avail that not true gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system social ranks that were used imperail germany and austria distinguish jews from the rest the population neither these were very terrible themselves but both helped set psychology which the gradual disenfranchisement jews was made easier jon
alt.atheism	thoughts christians excerpts from netnews alt atheism apr thoughts christians dave fuller portal sick religious types being pampered looked out for and worst all respected more than atheists there must end sight think help got couple good atheists even some good steadfast agnostics some high political offices when was the last time had openly atheist president have ever don actually know these aren rhetorical questions how bout some supreme court justices one thing that really ticked off while ago was for news program local station the promo said something like who are these cults and why they prey the young ahem ever hear baptism birth that isn preying the young don know what used ack barf catholic and was even confirmed shortly thereafter decided was load mom who really insisted that continue church felt was her duty bring believer that was one the more presumptuous things heard life suggested talk the priest and she agreed the priest was amazingly cool about basically said that didn believe there was good forcing actually guess wasn amazingly cool about his response what you hope for indeed expect from human being pose just didn expect find absurd that religion exists yet can also see its usefulness people facing the fact that you just going worm food few decades and that there isn some cosmic purpose humanity and the universe can pretty difficult for some people having readily available pre digested solution this pretty attractive you either gullible enough willing suspend your reasoning abilities for the piece mind have had the stuff rammed down your throat for long you can remember religion general provides nice patch for some human weaknesses organized religion provides nice way keep population under control blech chris chris leger sophomore carnegie mellon computer engineering remember you don like what somebody saying you can always ignore them
alt.atheism	all mary fault you know just occurred today that this whole christian thing can blamed solely mary she married joseph she gets knocked what you think joe will finds she been getting around mary comes with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant actually can all that ridiculous considering the number people that believe anyway she never tells anyone the truth and even tells poor little jesus that hot shit the son god everyone else tells him this too since they bought mary story what does mary actually turn out adultress and liar and the cause mankind greatest folly just recently minted two cents chris chris leger sophomore carnegie mellon computer engineering remember you don like what somebody saying you can always ignore them
alt.atheism	rawlins debunks creationism article apr rambo atlanta com wpr atlanta com bill rawlins wrote are talking about origins not merely science science cannot explain origins for person exclude anything but science from the issue origins say that there higher truth than science this false premise says who other than hear say god the way enjoy science you sure don understand truly wonder observing god creation macroevolution mixture percent science and percent religion guaranteed within three percent error bill hereby award you the golden shovel award for the biggist pile bullshit seen whils afraid there not bit religion macroevolution and you made rather grand statement that science can not explain origins large extent already has bill rawlins wpr atlanta com peter walker shall tell you what knowledge when dept space physics you know thing say that you know when and astronomy you not know thing admit you not know rice university this knowledge houston ung tzu
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian well this alt atheism hope you arent here try convert anyone makes sense one many would disagree the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was well you shouldn give any particular book too much weight actually don think that any these statements correct more likely that most jesus fame was attributed him after his death those who had some strong motives some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone what prophecy and what significant about them don think most people understand what christian think understand certainly not what see lot churches rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake well sell your computer and donate you life your religion now don waste any time keith
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article qkq horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable base this the assumption that everyone the world were deprived utterly their freedom that their every act was contrary their volition almost all would want complain therefore take that assert believe that freedom not very valuable when almost everyone can see that every bit absurd assert not raining rainy day take this candidate for objective value and necessary condition for objective morality that objective values such this exist you have only shown that vast majority not all would agree this however there nothing against subjective majority any event must challenge your assertion know many societies heck many citizens willing trade freedom for security whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes article apr wam umd edu west next wam umd edu writes and belief causes far more horrors crusades the emasculation and internment native americans the killing various tribes south america the inquisition the counter reformation and the wars that followed the salem witch trials the european witch hunts the holy wars the middle east the colonization destruction africa the wars between christianity and islam post crusade the genocide biblical the canaanites and philistines aryian invasion india the attempted genocide jews nazi germany the current missionary assaults tribes africa think all the horrors you mentioned are due lack people following religion lack people following religion also include fanatics people that don know what they are following how you know that you were right why are you trying shove down throat that religion causes horrors really covers yourself something false save yourself peace bobby mozumder just thought another one the bible definately not because lack religion the book esther which read the other day for other reasons describes the origin pur jewish celbration joy and peace the long and short the story that people were killed when people were tripping over all the peacefull solutions lying about you couldn swing sacred cow without slammin into nice peaceful solution course joshua and the jawbone ass spring mind agree with bobby this far religion used kill large numbers people usually not used the form manner that was originally intended for that doesn reduce the number deaths directly caused religion just minor observation the fact that there almost nothing pure the universe the very act honestly attempting find true meaning religious teaching has many times inspired hatred and led war many people have been led religious leaders more involved their own stomache contentsthan any absolute truth and have therefore been driven kill their leaders the point that there are many things involved religion that often lead war whether these things are part religion unpleasant side effect bobby would have the result people switching between religion and atheism spontaneously the results are the same religious groups have long been involved the majority the bloodiest parts man history atheists the other hand preen preen are typically not ideological social caste nor are they driven organize and spread their beliefs the overuse nazism and stalinism just show how true this two groups with very clear and specific ideologies using religious persecution further their means anyone who cannot see the obvious namely that these were groups founded for reasons entirely their own who used religious persecution not because any belief system but because made them more powerfull trying too hard basically bobby uses these examples because there are few wars that were not specifically fought over religion that does not have many choices well off key west where the only flames are heating the bottom little silver butter dishes ciao chris blask
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists article utinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes want know how this omniscient being going perform the feat definitely terming actions right wrong you were omniscient you know who exactly did what and with what purpose mind then with particular goal mind you sould able methodically judge whether not this action was accordance with the general goal but now you are contradicting yourself pretty massive way and don think you even noticed another part this thread you been telling that the goal natural morality what animals survive but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival humanity requires exterminate some other species either terrestrial alien does that make moral jon
alt.atheism	pompous ass article pinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider says andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes sure they may fall back other things but this one they should not have available use worse than others the national anthem should changed too god bless america the list goes worse maybe not but definately violation the rules the govt supposedly follows maybe the others should changed but not personally concerned about the anthem since don come across daily nearly unavoidable routines every christian and tempted rub that motto the face christians when debunking their standard motto slinging gets boring then you better than the people you despise don despise the people just their opinions meant when chatting with the ones who refuse listen any idea other than their own then just becomes exercise for amusement for the motto legitimate would have read god gods godlessness trust would you approve such motto not unless the only way get rid the current one was change such that
alt.atheism	moraltiy was political atheists article ekinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes what act morally for particular reason then moral what morality instinctive most animals saying that morality instinctive animals attempt assume your conclusion which conclusion you conclusion correct err that the behaviour which instinctive animals natural moral system see are disagreeing the definition moral here earlier you said that must conscious act your definition instinctive behavior pattern could act morality you are trying apply human terms non humans pardon trying apply human terms non humans think there must some confusion here the guy who saying that animal behaviour instinctive then does not have any moral sugnificance how does refusing apply human terms animals get turned into applying human terms think that even someone not conscious alternative this does not prevent his behavior from being moral sure you think this you say how about trying convince you don think that morality behavior pattern what human morality moral action one that consistent with given pattern that enforce certain behavior moral you keep getting this backwards you are trying show that the behaviour pattern morality whether morality behavior pattern irrelevant since there can behavior pattern for example the motions the planets that most all people would not call morality try show but your definition can shown offered four times think accept your definition you allow ascribe moral significence the orbital motion the planets and morality can thought large class princples could defined terms many things the laws physics you wish however seems silly talk moral planet because obeys the laws phyics less silly talk about animals they have least some free will the law silly and less silly what livesey finds intuitive silly but what schneider finds intuitive less silly now that devastating argument isn jon
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article bcc ics uci edu bvickers ics uci edu brett vickers writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes well seeing you are not muslim the sort fatwa issued khomeini would not relevant you can understand your fear persecution and share even more than you being muslim however rushdie behavior was not completely excusable much considered some the called islam related dialogue here total waste time somehow can restrain myself this instance gregg try this come senses and accept the all knowing wisdom and power the quran and allah not only that but allah himself drops congratulate wise choice allah rolls few bones and get down then allah gets out the crisco bends over and invites take spin around the block wow realize that maybe allah looking for more commitment than ready for say man got some programming gotta call you thinking over renounce islam btw gregg allah said still thinks you jim
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article bafa dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes yes but fortunately religions have been replaced systems that value human rights higher secular laws seem value criminal life more than the victims life islam places the rights society and every member above the rights the individual this what call true human rights the way you actually support the claim precedence islamic law case you what about the laws other religions muslim living non muslim land bound the laws the land live but not disregard islamic law still remains part life the laws land conflict with religion such extent that prevented from being allowed practise religion then must leave the land way islamic law does take precendence over secular law but are instructed follow the laws the land that live too islamic state one ruled khaliphate religions other than islam are allowed rule their own religious laws provided they don affect the genral population and don come into direct conflict with state laws dhimmis non muslim population are exempt from most islamic laws religion such fighting jihad giving zakat alms giving etc but are given the benefit these two acts such military protection and they are poor they will receive zakat not what has got with rushdie and has anyone reliable information hadn left islam according islamic law the burden proof him benedikt after the fatwa didn rushdie affirm his faith islam didn thru very public conversion islam binding himself islamic laws has publicly renounce his belief islam the burden him mas inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com all opinions
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage article apr bradford newnham bradford leonard newnham writes this all sounds nice everyone helping each other and always smiling and fluffy bunnies everywhere wake people are just not like that seems evident from history that society has succeeded when had rely upon the goodwill and unselfishness the people isn obvious from places like iran that even there are only few greedy people society then they are going attracted positions power sounds like recipe for disaster leonard mail newnham bradford leonard give you example this father recently bought business the business price was pounds and father approached the people the community for help raised pounds interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims knew had cash and the rest got business loan after paying off the muslim lenders many them helped him with further loans help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this example muslim community helping one another why did they help because their common identity muslims turn father has helped with people buying houses minimise the amount intrest they pay and some cases buy houses intrest free with the help those more fortunate the community the fact leonard does work without fluffy bunny sight ithat the beauty islam mas inc masud ahmed khan mas cadence com all opinions
alt.atheism	pompous ass andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes sure they may fall back other things but this one they should not have available use worse than others worse maybe not but definately violation the rules the govt supposedly follows for the motto legitimate would have read god gods godlessness trust would you approve such motto not unless the only way get rid the current one was change such that what wrong with this motto now you wouldn approve even that one beginning think that you just have something against mottos general what you think plurbis unum keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any that not true gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system social ranks that were used imperail germany and austria distinguish jews from the rest the population these don seem like little things least they are orders worse than the motto you think that the motto little thing that will lead worse things keith
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes explain how instinctive acts can moral acts and happy listen for example were instinctive not murder then not murdering would have moral significance since there would nothing voluntary about see there you again saying that moral act only significant voluntary why you think this and anyway humans have the ability disregard some their instincts only intelligent beings can moral even the bahavior other beings mimics theirs you are starting get the point mimicry not necessarily the same the action being imitated parrot saying pretty polly isn necessarily commenting the pulchritude polly you are attaching too many things the term moral think let try this good that animals the same species don kill each other you think this right you think that animals are machines and that nothing they either right nor wrong animals the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don they and other posters have given you many examples exactly this but you seem have very short memory those weren arbitrary killings they were slayings related some sort mating ritual whatnot are you trying say that this isn act morality because most animals aren intelligent enough think like saying there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives right there the posting you are replying yes was but still don understand your distinctions what you mean consider can small child moral how about gorilla dolphin platypus where the line drawn does the being need self aware what you call the mechanism which seems prevent animals the same species from arbitrarily killing each other don you find the fact that they don all significant keith
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes another part this thread you been telling that the goal natural morality what animals survive that right humans have gone somewhat beyond this though perhaps our goal one self actualization but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival humanity requires exterminate some other species either terrestrial alien now you are letting omniscient being give information this was not part the original premise does that make moral which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess keith
alt.atheism	new member jcopelan nyx edu the one and only writes welcome the official keeper the list nicknames that people are known alt atheism didn know had such list did you your have been awarded the nickname buckminster the next time you post article sign with your nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having say you sorry copeland course the list has agree with the nickname laws laid down the gipu almost years ago you know the them that were written the iron tablets that melted once and had reinscribed since prophet the gipu decree that you should post the whole list nicknames for the frequent posters here nanci
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must there were such rules even instinctive ones unwritten ones etc then surely some sort random chance would lead chimp society into chaos keith
alt.atheism	pompous ass article qlef inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any that not true gave you two examples one was the rather pevasive anti semitism german christianity well before hitler arrived the other was the system social ranks that were used imperail germany and austria distinguish jews from the rest the population these don seem like little things least they are orders worse than the motto you think that the motto little thing that will lead worse things you don think these are little things because with twenty twenty hindsight you know what they led jon
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists article qlf ginn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes another part this thread you been telling that the goal natural morality what animals survive that right humans have gone somewhat beyond this though perhaps our goal one self actualization humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly one thread you telling that natural morality what animals survive and this thread you are claiming that omniscient being can definitely say what right and what wrong what does this omniscient being use for criterion the long term survival the human species what how does omniscient map into definitely being able assign right and wrong actions but suppose that your omniscient being told you that the long term survival humanity requires exterminate some other species either terrestrial alien now you are letting omniscient being give information this was not part the original premise well your original premises have habit changing over time perhaps you like review for and tell what the difference between omniscient being able assign right and wrong actions and telling the result does that make moral which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess talking about the morality introduced you which was going implemented this omniscient being that can definitely assign right and wrong actions you tell what type morality that jon
alt.atheism	slavery was why sex only allowed marriage article apr cadence com mas cadence com masud khan writes leonard give you example this father recently bought business the business price was pounds and father approached the people the community for help raised pounds interest free loans from friends and relatives and muslims knew had cash and the rest got business loan after paying off the muslim lenders many them helped him with further loans help him clear the bank debt and save him from further intrest this example muslim community helping one another why did they help because their common identity muslims turn father has helped with people buying houses minimise the amount intrest they pay and some cases buy houses intrest free with the help those more fortunate the community sorry wrong this how banks got started the first place sooner later your father and his pals will lend money someone who eventually goes broke and then they will realise that they havn been managing risk very well then they will ask themselves what that they need quantify risk and persuade borrowers not take greater loans than they can carry and since they don all want the worry doing the calculations and handling the money some them will specialise that then they reinvent interest but like good muslims they call something else the fact leonard does work without fluffy bunny sight ithat the beauty islam riiiight that why john major opened new government department couple months ago help promote minority business because they can all themselves lending one another cups sugar jon
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists article qlettinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes explain how instinctive acts can moral acts and happy listen for example were instinctive not murder then not murdering would have moral significance since there would nothing voluntary about see there you again saying that moral act only significant voluntary why you think this you force something morally responsible for and anyway humans have the ability disregard some their instincts well make your mind instinctive not murder not only intelligent beings can moral even the bahavior other beings mimics theirs you are starting get the point mimicry not necessarily the same the action being imitated parrot saying pretty polly isn necessarily commenting the pulchritude polly you are attaching too many things the term moral think let try this good that animals the same species don kill each other you think this right not even correct animals the same species kill one another you think that animals are machines and that nothing they either right nor wrong sigh wonder how many times have been round this loop think that instinctive bahaviour has moral significance quite prepared believe that higher animals such primates have the beginnings moral sense since they seem exhibit self awareness animals the same species could kill each other arbitarily but they don they and other posters have given you many examples exactly this but you seem have very short memory those weren arbitrary killings they were slayings related some sort mating ritual whatnot what are you trying say that some killing animals has moral significance and some does not this your natural morality are you trying say that this isn act morality because most animals aren intelligent enough think like saying there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives right there the posting you are replying yes was but still don understand your distinctions what you mean consider can small child moral how about gorilla dolphin platypus where the line drawn does the being need self aware are you blind what you think that this sentence means there must the possibility that the organism not just people are talking about can consider alternatives what would that imply what you call the mechanism which seems prevent animals the same species from arbitrarily killing each other don you find the fact that they don all significant find the fact that they significant jon
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article jxru news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what you base your belief atheism your knowledge and reasoning couldn that wrong actually atheism based ignorance ignorance the existence any god don fall into the atheists don believe because their pride mistake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article jkj fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere grow childish propagandist gosh gregg pretty good reading between the lines but you given precious little work with this refutation could you maybe flesh out just bit did miss the full grandeur content virtue blinding atheism bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	morality was political atheists article inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes what been saying that moral behavior likely the null behavior smell sig material here bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes but were discussing relation the death penalty and the constitution need not define each the words within anyone who doesn know what cruel can look the dictionary and did with dictionary available they could gain first hand knowledge suffering through one your posts bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	pompous ass article jiinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes the little things above were reference germany clearly people said that there were similar things germany but one could name any they said that these were things that everyone should know and that they weren going waste their time repeating them sounds like one knew either looked some books but avail the anne frank exhibit makes your small little world take afternoon see bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	thoughts christians article ofnwyg voa andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu patrick leger writes ever hear baptism birth that isn preying the young don know what that praying the young preying the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	political atheists article qlfd inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must your highness and exactly why should the quotation marks enclose laws not must case you didn notice the function the must that wish ironicise there were such rules even instinctive ones unwritten ones etc then surely some sort random chance would lead chimp society into chaos perhaps the chimps that failed evolve cooperative behaviour died out and are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely chance are you going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour what about the natural morality bee dance jon
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes humans have gone somewhat beyond what exactly one thread you telling that natural morality what animals survive and this thread you are claiming that omniscient being can definitely say what right and what wrong what does this omniscient being use for criterion the long term survival the human species what well that the question isn the goals are probably not all that obvious can set few goals like happiness and liberty and the golden rule etc but these goals aren inherent they have defined before objective system possible how does omniscient map into definitely being able assign right and wrong actions not too difficult one you have goals mind and absolute knoweldge everyone intent etc now you are letting omniscient being give information this was not part the original premise well your original premises have habit changing over time perhaps you like review for and tell what the difference between omniscient being able assign right and wrong actions and telling the result omniscience fine long information not given away isn this the resolution the free will problem interactive omniscient being changes the situation which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess talking about the morality introduced you which was going implemented this omniscient being that can definitely assign right and wrong actions you tell what type morality that well was speaking about objective system general didn mention specific goal which would necessary determine the morality action keith
alt.atheism	islam caused believing was genocide caused theism article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes only saying that anything can happen under atheism being beleiver knowledgeable one religion only good can happen this becoming tiresome statement coming from you definition not assertion islam good belief islam good therefore being believer islam can produce only good because islam good blah blah blah that about circular gets and equally meaningless say that something produces only good because only good that produces nothing more than unapplied definition and all you application saying that true you really believe true that silly conversely you say off handedly that anything can happen under atheism again just offshoot believe and becomes true don believe and doesn like other religions aquainted with islam teaches exclusion and caste and suggests harsh penalties for behaviors that have logical call for punishment certain limits speech and sex for example this not good see much pain and suffering without any justification except for the waving the hand some inaccessible god the you toss around the word knowledgable bit carelessly for what knowledgeable believer except contradiction terms infer that you mean believer terms having faith and you need knowledge believe then faith has nothing with does jim halat
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes have precise about rejection god and his leaving islam one perfectly free muslim and doubt and question the existence god long one does not reject god sure that rushdie has now made his atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses the question regard the legal issue his status the time the crime was committed have say that have problem with any organization religious not where the idea that simple speech such this the basis for crime jim halat
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes have precise about rejection god and his leaving islam one perfectly free muslim and doubt and question the existence god long one does not reject god sure that rushdie has now made his atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses the question regard the legal issue his status the time the crime was committed also add that impossible actually tell when one rejects god therefore you choose punish only those who talk about jim halat
alt.atheism	silly question tianity article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes sorry insult your homestate but coming from where wisconsin very backwards was never able understand that people actually held such bigoted and backwards views until came here have never been wisconsin though have been neighbor minnesota being child the middle atlantic found that there were few states the provences that stood out this youngster mind california texas and florida name the most obvious three however both minnesota and wisconsin stuck out solely the basis their politics both have always translated extremely liberal and progressive states and recent trip minnestoa last summer served support that state reputation guess that wisconsin probably the same least that was the impression the people minnesota left with about their neighbors the only question head about wisconsin though whether not there cause effect relationship between cheese and serial killers jim halat
alt.atheism	the nonexistance atheists date apr edt from kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu article bskendigc jcwx jzn netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes quotes deleted really looks like these people have idea all what means atheist there are more bobby mozumder clones the world than thought well that explains some things posted soc religion islam with attached quote bobby the effect that all atheists are lying evil scum and asked was commonly held idea among muslims got response asking about the unknown guess you should have tried one the soc culture groups the middle east south asia area they are little more open than the islam channel think someone defined atheists polytheists cuz they say think the world created itself something like that each particle god which created the other gods the soc culture african also nice for some contrasting viewpoints the benevolence religion especially when sudan mentioned
alt.atheism	keith relativist article pigidinnsot gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes not you are thrown into cage with tiger and get mauled you blame the tiger aha admits moral relativist keith you start wafffling about how different for human maul someone thrown into cage speak you better start posting tome decent evidence retract your think there absolute morality blurb few weeks ago keith the desert brat john mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni australia levels unisa edu darwin for replies mail whjjm whyalla unisa edu disclaimer unisa hates opinions doesn make rainbow any less beautiful that god name smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance for some produce jim perry perry dsinc com alice chains
alt.atheism	some thoughts article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes hope you not going flame him please give him the same coutesy you given tammy person gives well balanced reasoned argument tammy then all are happy discuss with him makes astounding claims which are not backed with any evidence then must expected substantiate them the original author had said that everything was his own opinion and not supportable then people would have simply ignored him did not claimed many things and his logic was seriously flawed his argument was for christianity effort try convince atheists like myself believe him and his message for one will not take things read you told that pink fluffy elephants did the dance the sugar plum fairy the dark side jupiter then would demand evidence adda adda wainwright does dim atal llanw eczcaw mips nott mae sig werth
alt.atheism	objective values scientific accuracy was after years can say that christian morality article jzv dcs dcs tommy kelly wrote article qjahh mrs horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes science the real world has its basis values not the other way round you would wish you must using values mean something different from the way see used normally and you are certainly using science like that you equate the real world science the recognition patterns our perceptions the universe and the making qualitative and quantitative predictions concerning those perceptions science the process modeling the real world based commonly agreed interpretations our observations perceptions has nothing with values far can see values are well they are what value they are what would have rather than not have what would experience rather than not and values can also refer meaning for example computer science the value true and false science based commonly agreed values interpretation observations although science can result reinterpretation these values objective values are set values which the proposer believes are applicable everyone the values underlaying science are not objective since they have never been fully agreed and the change with time the values newtonian physic are certainly different those quantum mechanics steve lang slang sling slink slick slack shack shank thank think thick
alt.atheism	victims various good fight article tekig pen tek com naren tekig pen tek com naren bala writes list killings the name religion iran iraq war civil war sudan riots india pakistan massacares bangladesh inquistions america million crusades massacre jews wwii million massacre other inferior races wwii million communist purges million socialism more less religion catholics protestants quite few imagine recent goings bombay iodia area disease introduced brazilian oher tribes million naren the desert brat john mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni australia levels unisa edu darwin for replies mail whjjm whyalla unisa edu disclaimer unisa hates opinions doesn make rainbow any less beautiful that god name smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance for some produce jim perry perry dsinc com alice chains
alt.atheism	keith schneider stealth poster article innpit gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes but really are you threatened the motto the people that use every time somone writes something and says merely describing the norm infact inforcing that norm upon those programmed not think for themselves the motto dangerous itself tells the world that every true american god fearing and puts down those who not fear gods doesn need anyone make dangerous does good job itself just existing your currency keith the desert brat john mcvey elc eltnc eng whyalla uni australia levels unisa edu darwin for replies mail whjjm whyalla unisa edu disclaimer unisa hates opinions doesn make rainbow any less beautiful that god name smack understand the refractive mechanisms that chance for some produce jim perry perry dsinc com alice chains
alt.atheism	all mary fault andrew cmu edu patrick leger writes you know just occurred today that this whole christian thing can blamed solely mary she married joseph she gets knocked what you think joe will finds she been getting around mary comes with this ridiculous story about god making her pregnant nice attempt chris verrry close you missed the conspiracy step joseph knew who knocked her couldn let known that somebody else got mary prego that wouldn well for his popularity the local circles what happened that she was feeling guilty was feeling embarrassed and they decided improve both their images what could have otherwise been the downfall for both clever indeed come think have gained new respect for the couple maybe joseph and mary should receive all the praise being paid jesus dave buckminster fuller how that one keeper the nicknames
alt.atheism	origins the bible adda wainwright writes stated that thousands bibles were discovered certain point time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy certain time the time quoted acquaintance was approximately years after the death jesus this far know complete nonsense the codification the bible have now came very much later wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie apologize for the long delay getting response this posted been working reduced hours the past couple weeks because had son born the day after umar article was posted btw did respond within couple days but turns out that coincidental news software rearrangement caused postings from this site silently disappear rather than going out into the world this revision that original response article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes article finnm dsi dsinc com perry dsinc com jim perry writes only functional illiterate with absolutely conception the nature the novel could think such thing this was response the claim that rushdie made false statements about the life mohammed with the disclaimer fiction know but where the line between fact and fiction stand this distinction between fiction and false statements however not for his writing the satanic verses but for what people have accepted propagandistic version what contained that book have yet find one single muslim who has convinced that they have read the book some have initially claimed have done but none has shown more knowledge the book than superficial newsweek story might impart and all have made factual misstatements about events the book you keep saying things like this then you accuse people like making hominem arguments repeat have said previous postings have read tsv from cover cover had not seen that claim might have been less sweeping you have made what consider factual misstatements about events the book which have raised the past the islam clearer view thread well the root the yet more rushdie islamic law thread statement was not that you had not read the book but that you had not convinced that you inter alia had said before you want defend your position then produce evidence and respond the evidence have posted far you have not course statement was not directly aimed you but broadly number muslim posters who have repeated propaganda about the book indicating that they haven read and narrowly gregg jaeger who subsequently admitted that hadn fact read the book vindicating skepticism least that one case far the only things have regarding your own case are the statements you made concerning the book the clearer view posting which have challenged not interpretation but statements fact for instance rushdie depicts the women the most respected family all islam whores and your claim which had not seen before this that you have indeed read cover cover willing try resolve this down disagreement critical interpretation but you have support your end responding criticism have doubt the ability particular muslim through this book with highlighter finding passages take personal offense but you have upheld the view that tsv intended attack islam and upon muslims this view must defended more than mere assertion you want anyone take seriously trying very hard amicable and rational and appreciate but welcome the club defending honest opinion that this book should not construed calculated otherwise insulting attack islam and the parallel opinion that most the criticism the book have seen baseless propaganda have supported statements and critical interpretationa with context quotes from the book and rushdie essays which more than correspondents have done course you are more than welcome jim perry perry dsinc com decision support inc matthews these are opinions for nominal fee they can yours
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics chris faehl writes many atheists not mock the concept god they are shocked that many theists have fallen such low level that they actually believe god you accuse all atheists being part conspiracy again without evidence rule condescending the population large theists will not win many people your faith anytime soon only ruins your credibility fallacy atheism faith hear the faq beckoning once again wonderful rule deleted you correct you didn say anything about conspiracy correction hard atheism faith rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that will not explain this you again stalin did nothing the name atheism whethe was was not atheist irrelevant get grip man the stalin example was brought not indictment atheism but merely another example how people will kill others under any name that fit for the occasion rule you rely evidence state waiting opposed relying bunch black ink some crumbling old paper atheism has prove nothing you anyone else the burden dogmatic religious bullshit provide their evidence which might you referring and how long are you going wait hard atheism has nothing prove then how does justify that god does not exist know there the faq etc but guess what those justifications were compelling why aren people flocking hard atheism they not and they won for one will discourage people from hard atheism pointing out those very sources reliable statements hard atheism second what makes you think defending any given religion merely recognizing hard atheism for what faith and yes referring every reader the post where the evidence that the poster stated that relied upon yes though not theist can say safely that definition many theists are not arrogant since they boast about something outside themselves namely god gods principle hard see how theists are necessarily arrogant because they say such and such absolutely unalterably true because dogma says true not prepared issue blanket statements indicting all theists arrogance you are wont with atheists bzzt virtue your innocent little pronoun they you just issued blanket statement least will apologize qualifying original statement with hard atheist place atheist would you call john the baptist arrogant who boasted one greater than that what many christians today how that itself arrogant not worthy only seriously misinformed with your sophisticated put down they the theists your serious misinformation shines through bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes and god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each its rounded course holy quran hmm this agrees with the ptolemic system the earth the centre with the planets orbitting round copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all you haven read very carefully you look again you will see that doesn say anything about what circling what anyway they are not moving circles oops sorry words not the words the qur nor there any evidence that everything goes around rounded course general sense wishy washy statements are not scientific note that the celestial bodies the above verse interpolation which why brackets the translator incorrect imho interpretation here maurice bucaille translation studied arabic for his research into the qur and science this verse god the one who created the night the day the sun and the moon each travelling orbit with its own motion qur the positive aspect this verse noted maurice bucaille that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion the time and for long time afterwards there notion geocentrism this verse anywhere the qur fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism cindy apr solan solan unit cindy solan solan unit cynthia kandolf writes various quotes deleted the interest saving little bit bandwidth but will copy the koran quote and god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each its rounded course holy quran has been pointed out this quote makes claim about what orbits what the idea that something orbited something had been held true for many years before the koran was written the fact that says something orbits something hardly surprising insight concern with the word rounded there are two interpretations this word means circle this wrong although many believed true the time the koran was written other words not describing our neighborhood the universe really exists but was thought the time this has implications which hope are obvious everyone means rounded shape which could include elipses the geometrical form which most nearly describes the orbits the planets this also not great insight look the shapes you see nature very few them even approach square rectangle those are human created shapes everything nature rounded some degree even the flat earthers don try claim earth rectangle children who draw imaginary animals seldom give them rectangular bodies seem instinctively recognize that nature produces rounded shapes hence the assumption that the orbits the planets would round hardly takes divine inspiration good remember that every translation some extent interpretation you point out below one must really back the original arabic regarding the verses relevant nature prefer use maurice bucaille translations his book the bible the qur and science for general his translations are more literal maurice bucaille translates the portion the verse you are addressing each one travelling with orbit its own motion also note that the celestial bodies the first translation quoted you above the translator interpolation not existent the original arabic which why included brackets perhaps someone who can read the original arabic can eliminate one these interpretations any rate neither one them exactly impressive you right what the verses contain isn all that remarkable however bucaille surgeon that how thinks significant that the above verse contains geocentric ideas even though geocentrism was all the rage until the century and this goes for the rest the qur well which has about verses regarding nature think remember reading once fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior disagree with these what society thinks should irrelevant what the individual decides all that important who society think this fairly obvious how they define what acceptable generally what they feel right which the most idiotic policy can think how keep from whatever legal what moral position thinking for ourselves mac michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	origins the bible article apr nott eczcaw mips nott wainwright writes have been having argument about the origins the bible lately with theist acquaintance stated that thousands bibles were discovered certain point time which were syllable perfect this therefore meant that there must have been one copy certain time the time quoted acquaintace was approximately years after the death jesus adda most bible scholars agree that there was one copy each book certain time the time when the author wrote unfortunately like all works from this time period and earlier all that exists today are copies cutting all the crap out the way god wrote could anyone answer the following how old the oldest surviving copy the new testament there are parts books scraps really that date from around the mid second century there are some complete books letters etc from the middle third century the first complete collection the new testament dates from the early century throughout this period are writings various early church fathers leaders who quoted various scriptures their writings there any truth acquaintance statements you mean that someone discovered thousands bibles which were all perfect copies dating from the last part the century you mean that there are thousands early manuscripts within the dates given above but not letter perfect and that the most probable text can reconstructed from these documents and that the earliest original autographs now lost probably were written starting sometime shortly after then yes from who where did the bible originate from the original authors call them matthew mark luke john peter paul james and one other not identified how long piece string long you make adda regards jim
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics james hogan writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes jim hogan quips summary jim stuff jim afraid you missed the point thus think you have admit that atheists have lot more their sleeve than you might have suspected nah will encourage people learn about atheism see how little atheists have their sleeves whatever might have suspected actually quite meager you want send them your address learn less about your faith faith yeah you expect people read the faq etc and actually accept hard atheism you need little leap faith jimmy your logic runs out steam fine but why these people shoot themselves the foot and mock the idea god hope you understand now yes jim understand now thank you for providing some healthy sarcasm that would have dispelled any sympathies would have had for your faith bake real glad you detected the sarcasm angle but really bummin that won getting any your sympathy still your inclined have sympathy for somebody faith you might try one the religion newsgroups just careful over there though make believe whispering your ear here they all delusional jim sorry can pity you jim and sorry that you have these feelings denial about the faith you need get well just pretend that will all end happily ever after anyway maybe you start new newsgroup alt atheist hard you won bummin much good job jim bye bake more slim jim deleted bye bake bye bye bye bye big jim don forget your flintstone chewables bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	studies book mormon don know much about mormons and want know about serious independent studies about the book mormon don buy the official story about the gold original taken heaven but haven read the book mormon myself have much work learning biblical hebrew will appreciate any comment about the results study style vocabulary place names internal consistency and for example there evidence for one writer multiple writers there are some mention about events places historical persons later discovered archeologist yours collen andres grino brandt casilla santiago agrino enkidu mic chile hay mas realidad que realidad razon profeta
alt.atheism	gulf war and peace niks article apr bmerh bnr dgraham bmers bnr douglas graham writes wait minute you said never play chamberlain since the playing chamberlain far east timor concerned wouldn that lead you think that your argument irrelevant and had nothing with the gulf war actually rather like your idea perhaps the rest the world should have bombed maybe missiled washington when the invaded nicaragua grenada panama vietnam mexico hawaii any number other places wait minute doug know you are better informed than that the has never invaded nicaragua far know liberated grenada from the cubans protect citizens there and prevent the completion strategic air strip panama invaded true twice this century vietnam were invited the government vietnam guess invaded saudi arabia during the gulf war mexico have invaded mexico times once this century but there were missiles for anyone shoot over here that time hawaii liberated from spain you mean the word invaded some sort military action where cross someone border you are right out but normally invaded carries connotation attacking autonomous nation some nation invades the virgin islands would they invading the virgin islands the from this point view your score falls out mexico panama what peace nik that somebody who doesn masturbate over guns ammo what supposed bad peace nik someone who believes peace all costs other words person who would have supported giving hitler not only austria and czechoslakia but poland too could have averted the war and one who would allow hitler wipe all all jews slavs and political dissidents areas controlled long left the rest alone supposed bad peace nik you ask well depends what your values are you value life over liberty peace over freedom then guess not but liberty and freedom mean more you than life itself you rather die fighting for liberty than live under tyrant heel then yes bad peace nik the problem with most peace niks they consider those who are not like them bad and unconscionable would not have any argument problem with peace nik they held their ideals and stayed out all conflicts issues especially those dealing with the national defense but they are not willing allow legitimately hold different point view they militate and many times resort violence all the name peace what rank hypocrisy all stop warmongers who are willing stand and defend our freedoms against tyrants and who realize that requires strong national defense time get off the soapbox now doug graham dgraham bnr opinions are own regards jim
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics nancyo fraser sfu nancy patricia connor writes timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that you right and david koresh claimed christian yup can hear the millions cheering for right now josef stalin eat your heart out bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	has risen our lord and savior david keresh has risen has been seen alive spread the word sole intention was learning fly
alt.atheism	idle questions for fellow atheists acooper mac macalstr edu wrote wonder how many atheists out there care speculate the face the world atheists were the majority rather than the minority group the population been thinking about this every now and then since cut ties with christianity surprising note that large majority people least finland seem apatheists even though the population are members the lutheran church finland religious people are actually minority could possible that many people believe god just case seems people not want seek the truth they fall prey pascal wager other poor arguments small minority those who believe reads the bible regularly the majority doesn care believes but doesn know what how people don usually allow their beliefs change their lifestyle they only want keep the virtual gate open christian would say that they are not born the spirit but this does not disturb them religion not something think about afraid society with true atheist majority impossible dream religions have strong appeal people nevertheless promise life after death something humans eagerly listen coupled with threats eternal torture and the idea that our morality under constant scrutiny some cosmic cop too many people take the poison with smile just pretend swallow and unconsciously hope god wouldn notice also how many atheists out there would actually take the stance and accor higher value their way thinking over the theistic way thinking the typical selfish argument would that both lines thinking evolved from the same inherent motivation one not intrinsically different from the other qualitatively but then again measuring stick must drawn somewhere and cannot assign value system beliefs its core than the only other alternative apply its periphery how expresses its own selfishness logic and reason are valued then would claim that atheistic thinking higher value than the theistic exposition theists make unnecessary assumptions they believe yet see good reasons believe gods take leap faith all revelation would however why value logic and reasoning this questions bears some resemblance long disputed problem science why mathematics works strong deep structuralists like atkins have proposed that perhaps after all everything mathematics usefulness any criterion petri petri pihko kem pmp mathematics the truth pihatie finou oulu physics the rule oulu kempmp the game finland phoenix oulu chemistry the game
alt.atheism	societally acceptable behavior article asv news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes qvabj horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes article qgm news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes making wrong assumption for the basis morals where they come from the question came from the idea that heard that morals come from whatever societally mandated only one aspect morality societal morality necessarily very crude and broad brush stuff which attempts deal with what necessary keep that society going and often little over enthusiastic about doing individual morality different thing often includes societal mores society trouble but stronger for example some people are vegetarian though eating meat may perfectly legal merely question for the basis morality moral ethical behavior societally acceptable behavior who society depends the society doesn help the point irrelevant often the answer are but society those who make the rules that different question society who should make the rules that yet another don claim have the answers either but don think very well ireland and like some things about the system least principle how they define what acceptable depends again this comes from certain question see above well ideally they don but they must they should consensus imo how keep from whatever legal what moral position adopting default position that people moral decisions are none society business how can put people jail how can condemn other societies because sometimes that necessary the hard trick recognise when and equally importantly when isn and only interfering when truly necessary why would necessary what right have interfere imo isn often that interference jail and force various kinds and degrees both necessary and effective where you derive the right interfere difficult question sort liar paradox force necessary for freedom one possible justification that people who wish take away freedom shouldn object their own freedom taken away the paradox doesn arise don actively wish take way anyone freedom the introduction permissible interference causes the problem that can either too much too little but most people seem agree that some level interference necessary they see the need for justice system how can even define that term only consensus guess thus you get situation where the law often allows what honour forbids which come believe should admit don understand that statement what mean that while thus and such may legal thus and such may also seen immoral the law lets you but you don let yourself eating meat for example frank dwyer not hatching that odwyer sse from hens evelyn conlon
alt.atheism	islamic genocide psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes date apr gmt from frank dwyer frank uucp article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes just borrowing your post rice psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes are you sure that democracy the driving force behind the massacres east timor certainly odd that many the worlds massacres occur along religious lines independently any claims democratic form government are ireland and northern ireland considered democracies would you attribute their problems democracy even though they are democracies which motivates them more religion democracy rice was pointing out fallacy the assertion that islam evil because some those who claim follow are evil not asserting that democracy causes massacres read that right was and was pointing out that his use indonesians killing the east timorese result democracy was bit weak because democracy not much motivation for doing much anything indonesia from what remember east timor was former portguese territory which was forcibly annexed indonesia last heard over indonesians have died trying keep east timor part indonesia being former portuguese colony there strong catholic influence east timor recall seems bit odd that yet again have another war being fought between people who just happen have different religions purely coincidental guess but then the real motivation get the vote out and make democracy work indonesia pointed out the secession movement aceh which has also been brutally dealt with the past the indonesian government the harshly with all secessionist movements the evidence appears that the indonesian government has dealt very harshly with all secession movements know that the head the indonesian armed forces for very long time was benny murdani christian indonesia has been heavy handed east timor for long time even when murdani was head the armed forces the people who make the indonesian government are general motivated national interests not religious ones fred rice darice yoyo monash edu
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics robert knowles writes there are few atheists with time their hands first apologize didn bother reading the faq first and fired imprecise flame that was inexcusable how about the nickname bake flamethrower timmons sure but robert koresh fetesh sic knowles seems good too you weren the koresh compound around noon today any chance were you remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm though wasn there least can rely you now keep posted what what doing have you any other fetishes besides those for beef jerky and david koresh bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	christian morality article prca news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb says vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes wrong god free any time correct mistake that continues not while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for eternal soul speaks volumes what are the volumes that speaks besides the fact that leaves your choices you leaves the choices but gives better reason believe than odd story his alleged son getting killed for and little new the past few thousand years leaving with only the texts passed down through centuries meddling with the meaning and even wording most this passing down and interpretation course coming from those who have vested interest not allowing the possibility that might not the ultimate truth what about maybe talking directly big god right ought able make time for the creations loves much least enough give each few words direct conversation what too busy get around all maybe few unquestionably miraculous works here and there speaks volumes upon volumes that never gotten chance meet the guy and chat with him
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes yes fortunately have right thinking folks like your good self power and was therefore deemed acceptable slaughter tens even hundreds thousands iraqis order liberate oil hkuwait won the war hurrah hurrah the number civilian iraqi deaths were way over exaggerated and exploited for anti war emotionalism the liberal news media the facts are that less iraqis died the gulf war than did civilians any other war comparable size this century let analyze this claim little how the size war defined number participants geographical area number countries involved number casualties size armies duration numbers casualties both absolute and percentage those involved geographical area and numbers countries too are all measures size this case say the relevant statistic would the number combatants total troops compared total casualties from among the total civilian population the affected geographical area which other comparable wars are talking about vietnam and korea might make good comparisons which liberal news media are talking about western news general but particular the american mass media cbs nbc abc etc the general tone the news during the whole war was one those poor poor iraqis along with look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building bits this was due mostly the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently suspect that medical advances may have something with too agree how about all the innocent people who died blanket bombing don hear you bemoaning them perhaps because the topic hasn cropped you want opinion think that the blanket bombing german cities the end world war two was the most appalling act wholesale slaughter this country has committed centuries bomber harris was hero mine perhaps and maybe the atomic bomb was mistake too but that easy say from our enlightened viewpoint here the right back then was all out war and germany and japan had squashed after all million more british had already died hundreds thousands french couple hundread thousand americans and millions russians not mention few million jews poles and other people slavic descent german concentration camps all things considered the fire bombings and the atomic bomb were essential and therefore justified bringing the war quick end avoid even greater allied losses for one don regret war never exact science but with smart bombs becoming more exact with smaller percentage civilian casualties sometimes mistakes are made targets are misidentified innocents die that war the way really entrenched political rulers operating their own selfish interests without regard for the lives other people that the way war really sure and the people who suffer because them all the more reason depose these entrenched political rulers operating their own selfish interests you mean that this applies the allies well why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor bosnia even tibet iraq bad why were still selling them stuff couple weeks before started bombing make claim effort justify the misguided foreign policy the west before the war evident that the west especially america misjudged hussein drastically but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened militarily corner significant portion the world oil supply had stopped sure the war could have been prevented judicious and concerted effort the part the west before hussein invaded kuwait but still hussein who responsible for his decision invade and once did strong response from the west was required mathew your sarcasm noted but you are completely off base here you come off sounding like complete peace nik idiot although feel sure that was not your intent what your intent sound like loving christian well you aren doing very good job well not very loving allow hussein hitler gobble nearby countries and keep them allow them continue with mass slaughter certain peoples under their dominion have say yes stopping hussein was the most loving thing for the most people involved once set his mind military conquest the iraqi war was wrong sure that appeasement would have worked better than war just like did who even mentioned appeasement and what makes you think the situation even remotely analogous world war two mentioned hadn intervened allowing hussein keep kuwait then would have been appeasement precisely the lessons the world learned that motivated the western alliance war letting hitler take austria and czechoslavkia did not stop from happening and letting hussein keep kuwait would not have stopped eventual gulf war protect saudi arabia guess shouldn have fought either just think all those innocent german civilians killed dresden and hamburg yes germans are human too you know sure what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler his grandiose quest for thousand year reich the consequences stemmed from that tyrants like hussein have stopped his kind don understand diplomacy they only understand the point gun only regret that bush wimped out and didn have the military roll into baghdad now hussein still power and the iraqi people sacrifice not mention the americans who died was for naught look forward hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet what should say about them anything particular and for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury the first trial brought back verdict not guilty yes amongst the things thought were hmm there awful lot white people that jury was the policemen trial not rodney king and under american law they deserved jury their peers there had been black officers involved sure their would have been black jurors too this point allegedly racial motivations really shallow those who have been foaming the mouth for the blood those policemen certainly have looked further than the video tape but the jury looked all the evidence evidence which you and have not seen when see bunch policemen beating someone who lying defenceless the ground rather hard imagine what this other evidence might have been hard imagine when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author constructing logical argument can expect another revision soon just kidding there some wonderful evidence why seemingly being kept secret why not tell everyone what then everyone could say yes you right king deserved good beating and could all live happily ever after have admit that wonder this too but neither the prosecution nor the defense talking one cannot conclude either way due the silence the principals law this country intended protect the rights the accused whether they criminals cops one not found guilty there reasonable doubt one guilt and only the jury position assess the evidence and render verdict fine but still finding hard imagine what the reasonable doubt was this case mean the cops certainly seem beating someone who lying defenceless the ground what your explanation mass hallucination orbital mind control lasers faked video footage tell certainly seemed that there was excessive force involved and frankly the original not guilty verdict baffled too but then learned that the prosecution the first case did not try convict charge excessive force simple assault which they probably would have won they tried get conviction charge aggravated assault with intent inflict serious bodily harm charge which news commentators said was akin attempted murder under california law based what the prosecution was asking for evident that the first jury decided that the officers were not guilty note not not guilty doing wrong but not guilty aggravated assault with the intent inflicting serious bodily harm the seeds the prosecutions defeat were their own overconfidence obtaining verdict such that they went for the most extreme charge they could the facts the news commentators presented them are true then feel the not guilty verdict was reasonable one mathew thou shalt not kill unless thou hast pretty good reason for killing which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets the way unfortunately cannot helped jim brown bible for loving christians thanks mathew like the quote pretty funny actually monty python fan you know kind seems that vein course oversimplifying any moral argument can make seem contradictory but then you know that already regards jim loving christian
alt.atheism	free moral agency article pxqs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner says dean kaflowitz decay cbnewsj att com wrote now what interested the original notion you were discussing moral free agency that how can god punish person for not believing him when that person only following his her nature and not possible for that person deny what his her reason tells him her which that there god think you letting atheist mythology confuse you the issue webster myth traditional legendary story belief whose truth accepted uncritically how does that qualify indeed almost oxymoronic rather amusing instance found that most atheists hold almost atheist views accepted uncritically especially the few that are legend many are trying explain basic truths myths but they don meet the other criterions also divine justice according the most fundamental doctrines christianity when the first man sinned was that time the you accuse him referencing mythology then you procede launch your own xtian mythology this time meeting all the requirements myth salvation the idea punishment based the proposition that everyone knows instinctively that god exists their creator and but not everyone knows that god exists you have fallacy there nothing terribly difficult all this and well known any reasonably biblically literate christian the only controversy and that makes true holding with the bible rules out controversy read the faq you read you missed something read not bad suggestion for anyone read just before this with those who pretend not know what being said and what means when atheists claim that they not know god exists and don know what wants they contradict the bible which clearly says that everyone knows the authority the bible its claim should repeat what wrote above for the sake getting across you may trust the bible but your trusting doesn make any more credible the bible says that everyone knows that clearly reason doubt the bible because not everyone knows your alleged god alleged existance refuted while the species wide condemnation justified those that claim that there evidence for the existence god that his will unknown must deliberately ignore the bible the ignorance itself excuse they don have ignore the bible the bible far from universally accepted the bible not proof god only proof that some people have thought that there was god does prove even that they might have been writing series fiction short stories the case dionetics assuming the writers believed the only thing could possibly prove that they believed and that ignoring the problem whether not all the interpretations and biblical philosophers were correct there are people who have truly never heard the bible again read the faq freedom you are free ignore god the same way you are free ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known both cases that atheist can accept the evidence means only bzzt wrong answer gravity directly there doesn stop exerting direct and rationally undeniable influence you ignore god the other hand doesn generally show the supermarket except the tabloids god doesn exert rationally undeniable influence gravity obvious gods aren secondly human reason very comforatble with the concept god much that itself intrinsic our nature human reason always comes back the question god every generation and human reason hasn always come back the existance god has usually come back the existance god other words doesn generally come back the xtian god comes back whether there any god and much oriental philosophic history generally doesn pop the idea god much the question what natural forces are and which ones are out there from world wide view human nature just makes wonder how the universe came and what force are currently control natural tendancy believe god only exists religious wishful thinking said all this make the point that christianity eminently reasonable that divine justice just and human nature much different than what atheists think whether you agree not xtianity more reasonable than most other religions and reasonableness certainly doesn merit eminence divine justice well only seems just those who already believe the divinity first not all atheists believe the same things about human nature second whether most atheists are correct not you certainly are not correct human nature you are the least basing your views completely eurocentric approach try looking the outside world well when you attempt sum all humanity andrew
alt.atheism	genocide caused theism evidence article qibo horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes the absence some convincing evidence that theist fanatics are more dangerous than atheist fanatics continue wary fanatics any stripe think that the agnostic fanatics are the most dangerous the lot fair point actually mentioned theists and atheists but left out agnostics mea culpa wonder the light that you are probably theist who tries pass agnostic still remember your post about your daughter singing chrismas carols and your feelings well the way would you show marginal honesty and answer the many questions you left open when you ceased respond last time benedikt
alt.atheism	islamic genocide article horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes deletion few people can imagine dying for capitalism few more can imagine dying for democracy but lot more will die for their lord and savior jesus christ who died the cross for their sins motivation pure and simple got any cites for this nonsense how many people will die for mom patriotism freedom money their kids fast cars and swimming pools night with kim basinger mel gibson and which these things are evil read history book fred and tell why many religions command commit genocide when has got nothing with religion why many religions say that not living the standards the religion worse than dieing coincidence assume ist part the absolute morality you describe often theism strongly correlated with irrational belief absolutes irrational belief absolutes strongly correlated with fanatism benedikt
alt.atheism	where are they now article pepper east sun com geoff east sun com geoff arnold sun bos coast near the top writes your posting provoked into checking save file for memorable posts the first captured was ken arromdee feb the subject atheist too that was article here your question was article which average about articles day for the last three years others have noted the current posting rate such that kill file depressing large among the posting saved the early days were articles from the following notables hey might interesting read some these posts especially from ones who still regularly posts alt atheism from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky interesting bunch wonder where hee hee hee ain going say whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article mdinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes this whole thread started because discussion about whether not the death penalty constituted cruel punishment which forbidden the constitution yes but they didn say what they meant cruel which why you have the supreme court and makes sense refer the constitution which quite silent the meaning the word cruel they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient only need ask the question what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would very painful both physically and psychologicall imagine firing squad note not clean way die back those days etc all would considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution the founding fathers whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	political atheists article ajinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	some thoughts article bissda saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes the arguements uses summing the book about whether jesus was god not know many you don believe but listen different perspective for all have something gain listening what others have say read the faq first watch the list some weeks and come back then and read some other books the matter order broaden your view first benedikt
alt.atheism	who says the apostles were tortured article qiu innpq srvr engin umich edu ingles engin umich edu ray ingles writes evidence for the resurrection often claimed that the disciples were tortured death for their beliefs and still did not renounce their claim that jesus had come back from the dead now skimmed acts and such and found reference this happening stephen but others where does this apparently very widely held belief come from there any evidence outside the bible there any evidence the bible sure haven found any early authors and legends the most important sources can found the martyriologia the catholic church makes the grimms look like exact science benedikt
alt.atheism	political atheists article qlfd inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes well chimps must have some system they live social groups they must have some laws dictating undesired behavior why must they have such laws the quotation marks should enclose laws not must there were such rules even instinctive ones unwritten ones etc then surely some sort random chance would lead chimp society into chaos the system refered moral system you havn shown any reason that chimps must have moral system except you would like redefine everything whatever promises that have been made can than broken john laws man without the honor keep his given word
alt.atheism	where are they now article pepper east sun com geoff east sun com writes your posting provoked into checking save file for memorable posts the first captured was ken arromdee feb the subject atheist too that was article here your question was article which average about articles day for the last three years others have noted the current posting rate such that kill file depressing large among the posting saved the early days were articles from the following notables from loren sunlight llnl gov loren petrich from jchrist nazareth israel rel jesus christ nazareth from mrc tomobiki cho cac washington edu mark crispin from perry apollo com jim perry from lippard uavax ccit arizona edu james lippard from minsky media mit edu marvin minsky interesting bunch wonder where didn you hear his address has changed can reached the following address dkoresh branch davidian compound waco think was last seen posting alt messianic jim god dead and the actor plays his part sting his words fear will find their way place your heart history without the voice reason every faith its own curse will teach without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	free moral agency are you saying that their was physical adam and eve and that all humans are direct decendents only these two human beings then who were cain and able wives couldn their sisters because didn have daughters were they non humans genesis and the days adam after begat seth were eight hundred years and begat sons and daughters felicitations chris stuart
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war long article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes jbrown batman bmd trw com writes article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes which liberal news media are talking about western news general but particular the american mass media cbs nbc abc etc the general tone the news during the whole war was one those poor poor iraqis along with look how precisely this cruise missile blew this building bits most odd over here there was very little about the suffering the iraqi civilians until towards the end the war and then was confined the few remaining quality newspapers true first the news media seemed entranced all the new gizmos the military was using not mention the taped video transmissions from the missiles they zeroed their targets but later and especially after the bunker full civilians was hit they changed their tone seemed that they didn have the stomach for the reality war that innocent people really die and are maimed warfare like they were only pro gulf war long was nice and clean smart missiles dropping military hqs but not when pictures dead dying and maimed civilians started cropping what naive hypocrites how about all the innocent people who died blanket bombing don hear you bemoaning them discussion about blanket bombing and bombs deleted all things considered the fire bombings and the atomic bomb were essential and therefore justified bringing the war quick end avoid even greater allied losses should have said here militarily justified seems from your comments below that you understood this meaning morally justified apologize what about the evidence that america knew japan was about surrender after hiroshima but before nagasaki that another lie peddled the liberal media conspiracy have often wondered about this always thought that the first bomb should have been dropped japan island fortress truk good inpenatrable military target the second bomb could been held back for use industrial center need but digress yes have heard that found evidence after the war btw that japan was seriously considering surrender after the first bomb unfortunately the military junta won out over the moderates and rejected the ulimatum therefore the second bomb was dropped most unfortunate imo for one don regret nuke jap for jesus don regret the fact that sometimes military decisions have made which affect the lives innocent people but regret the circumstances which make those decisions necessary and regret the suffering caused those decisions why all the fuss about kuwait and not east timor bosnia even tibet iraq bad why were still selling them stuff couple weeks before started bombing make claim effort justify the misguided foreign policy the west before the war evident that the west especially america misjudged hussein drastically but once hussein invaded kuwait and threatened militarily corner significant portion the world oil supply had stopped see can overlook his using chemical weapons thousands people but threatens your right drive huge gas guzzling car well the man gotta actually was the fact that both situations existed that prompted and allied action some back water country took over some other back water country probably wouldn intervene not that don care but can the world policman coup had occured kuwait instead invasion then still wouldn have acted because there would not have been the imminent danger perceived saudi arabia but the combination the two unprovoked invasion genocidal tyrant and the potential danger the west oil interests caused take action moved paragraph from here later hadn intervened allowing hussein keep kuwait then would have been appeasement right but did you ever hear anyone advocate such course action are you just setting strawman not setting strawman all you want argue against the war then the only logical alternative was allow hussein keep kuwait diplomatic alternatives including sanctions were ineffective guess shouldn have fought either just think all those innocent german civilians killed dresden and hamburg yes germans are human too you know sure what was truly unfortunate was that they followed hitler his grandiose quest for thousand year reich the consequences stemmed from that translation they were asking for well sense yes they probably had idea what end hitler would lead their nation but what about those who didn support hitler dreams conquest not they democratically voted for all his policies the nsdap got the elections and that was the last chance the german people got vote the matter they suffered along with the rest why does this bother you much the world full evil and circumstances are not perfect many innocents suffer due the wrongful actions others regretable but that the way there are perfect solutions look forward hearing your incisive comments about east timor and tibet what should say about them anything particular the people east timor are still being killed dictatorship that invaded their country hell even western journalists have been killed all this was happening before the gulf war why didn send the bombers east timor why aren sending the bombers now probably because not the saviors the world can police each and every country that decides self destruct invade another nor are strategic position get relief tibet east timor some other places here that paragraph moved what your intent sound like loving christian well you aren doing very good job well not very loving allow hussein hitler gobble nearby countries and keep them allow them continue with mass slaughter certain peoples under their dominion have say yes stopping hussein was the most loving thing for the most people involved once set his mind military conquest the chinese government has policy mandatory abortion and sterilization tibetans tibetan people are rounded tortured and executed amnesty international recently reported that torture still widespread china why aren stopping them fact why are actively sucking them trading freely with them tell how could stop them and support for one not agree with the present policy sucking them you put agree that deplorable and for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury the first trial brought back verdict not guilty yes amongst the things thought were hmm there awful lot white people that jury was the policemen trial not rodney king erm surely irrelevant who trial juries are supposed represent cross section the population are they are they supposed reflect the population the locale where the trial held normally this where the crime committed unless one party the other can convince the judge change venue order not expert california law even law but seems that this the way the system set you can criticize the system but let not have unfounded allegations racial prejudice thrown around and under american law they deserved jury their peers you are saying that black people are not the peers white people not all the point that the fact that there were blacks the first jury and that rodney king black totally irrelevant this point allegedly racial motivations really shallow this idea people only being tried before jury people just like them really stupid should the nuremburg trials have had jury entirely made nazis germans perhaps peers doesn mean those who the same thing like having murderers judge murderers means having people from the same station life presumably because they are better position understand the defendent motivation those who have been foaming the mouth for the blood those policemen certainly have looked further than the video tape but the jury looked all the evidence evidence which you and have not seen when see bunch policemen beating someone who lying defenceless the ground rather hard imagine what this other evidence might have been hard imagine when has argument from incredulity gained acceptance from the revered author constructing logical argument not talking about logical argument talking about court law the faq points out some fallacious arguments are not viewed fallacies court law granted however you are using this reasoning part your logical argument this discussion this not court law the facts the news commentators presented them are true then feel the not guilty verdict was reasonable one were you not talking earlier about the bias the liberal media conspiracy the media not totally monolithic even though there prevailing liberal bias programs such the macneil lehrer news hour try give balanced and fair reporting the news there are even conservative sources out there you know where look hurrah for rush btw never used the word conspiracy don accept without far more evidence theories that there some all pervading liberal conspiracy attempting take over all news sources thou shalt not kill unless thou hast pretty good reason for killing which case thou shalt kill and also kill anyone who gets the way unfortunately cannot helped jim brown bible for loving christians thanks mathew like the quote pretty funny actually monty python fan you know kind seems that vein course oversimplifying any moral argument can make seem contradictory but then you know that already only serious atheist arguing against killing innocent people you supposed christian are arguing that kill innocent people long you get some guilty ones well hardly didn say that good thing kill innocent people the end just unfortunately don live perfect world and there are perfect solutions one going resist tyranny then innocent people both sides are going suffer and die didn say unfortunate but sometimes necessary moral relativist arguing that saturation bombing german cities the end world war was far can see evil and unnecessary act would agree that was evil the sense that caused much pain and suffering not sure that was unnecessary you say that conclusion can only arrived evaluating all the factors involved and perhaps was unnecessary let say now know that doesn mean that those who had make the decision bomb didn see being necessary rarely can one have full known the consequences action before making decision the time may have seemed necessary enough ahead with but don assume that feel the bombing was morally justified don just don condemn those who had make difficult decision under difficult circumstances you having criticised moral relativism the past are now arguing that position judge the morality allied actions the end the war you certainly are not such position you are moral relativist absolutist position judge but defer judgment you are arguing that the actions need assessed the particular context the time and that they might have been moral then but not moral now wrong they were neither moral then nor now they seemed necessary those making the decisions bring quick end the war simply refuse condemn them for their decision where your christian love where your absolute morality how quick you are discard them when suits you ivan stang would say jesus would puke one day will stand before jesus and give account every word and action even this discourse this forum understand the full ramifications that and prepared don believe that you can make the same claim mathew and btw the reason brought the blanket bombing germany was because you were bemoaning the iraqi civilian casualties being deplorable yet blanket bombing was instituted because bombing wasn accurate enough hit industrial military targets decisive way any other method that time but the gulf war precision bombing was the norm the point was why make big stink about the relatively few civilian casualties that resulted spite precision bombing when many more civilians proportionately and quantitatively died under the blanket bombing even with precision bombing mistakes happen and some civilians suffer but less civilians suffered this war than any other iany other history many iraqi civilians went about their lives with minimal interference from the allied air raids the stories hundreds thousands iraqi civilian dead just plain bunk yes bunk the lost servicemen over four years and the majority them were directly involved fighting but are expected swallow that hundreds thousands civilian iraqis died war lasting about months and with the allies using the most precise bombs ever created that what hogwash hundreds thousands iraqi civilians died was due actions hussein took his own people not due the allied bombing regards jim
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics maddi hausmann chirps timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes first all you seem reasonable guy why not try more honest and include sentence afterwards that honest just ended like that swear that nice hmmmm recognize the warning signs alternating polite and rude coming into newsgroup with huge chip shoulder calls people names and then makes nice whirrr click whirrr you forgot the third equality whirrr click whirrr see below whirr click whirr frank dwyer might also contained that shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist dwyer maddi the mad sound geek hausmann whirrr click whirrr bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes the positive aspect this verse noted maurice bucaille that while geocentrism was the commonly accepted notion the time and for long time afterwards there notion geocentrism this verse anywhere the qur there notion heliocentric even galacticentric either sole intention was learning fly
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and anarchists mccullou whipple wisc edu writes turn went back and reread your post all you did attack atheism and say that agnosticism wasn funny atheism nowhere does that imply that you are agnostic weak atheist most people who post such inflammatory remarks are theists was reasonable assumption sorry you right did not clearly state rule condescending the population large theists will not win many people your faith anytime soon only ruins your credibility how being condescending the population large stating something that happened true for long time couldn believe that people actually believed this god idea was alien concept not trying win people faith you put have faith religion was non issue when had the attitude above because never even occurred believe atheist default guess you could say the most common form condescending the rational versus irrational attitude once one has accepted the assumption that there god and then consider other faiths irrational simply because their assumption contradict your assumption then would say there lack consistency here now know you get about faith the positive belief that god does not exist were closed logical argument why many rational people have problems with that logic but you probably like seem soft atheist sorry for the flamage the line about atheists haveing something their sleeves what seemed imply that sorry been reading too much the clipper project lately and the paranoia over there may have seeped some what the clipper project btw rule don mix apples with oranges how can you say that the extermination the mongols was worse than stalin khan conquered people unsympathetic his cause that was atrocious but stalin killed millions his own people who loved and worshipped him and his atheist state how can anyone worse than that many rulers have done similar things the past only stalin did when there was plenty documentation afix the blame him the evidence that some the early european rulers ruled with iron fist much like stalin you threw numbers and sick hearing about stalin example because the example doesn apply you managed get angry with your post because appeared attack all forms atheism might have appeared attack atheism general but its point was that mass killing happens for all sorts reasons people will hate who they will and will wave whatever flag justify cross hammer sickle the stalin example important not only because still widely unappreciated era that people want forget but also because people really did love him and his ideas even after all that had wrought the evidence referring more lack evidence than negative evidence say claim there are pink crows have never seen pink crow but that doesn mean couldn exist but this person here claims that there are pink crows even though admits hasn been able capture one get photo find one with etc sense that evidence not believe the existence pink crows that what saying when look the evidence look the suppossed evidence for deity show how flawed and doesn show what theists want show and first all the pink crows unicorns elves arguments the world will not sway most people for they simply not accept the analogy why one the big reasons that many many people want something beyond this life you can pretend that they don want this but for one can accept and even want myself sometimes and there nothing unique this example why people want god can love truth proven logically themselves namely god gods principle hard see how theists are necessarily arrogant makes sense they seem arrogant make such claim but previous refutation still stands and believe there may another one the net john the baptist boasted jesus many people find hard see how that behavior arrogant all many christians know also boast this way but still not necessarily see arrogance course know arrogant christians doctors and teachers well technically you might consider the person who originally made given claim arrogant jesus for instance are you talking about all atheism just strong atheism you are talking about weak atheism which believe then refuse such claim atheism lack belief used good occam razor make the final rejection deity that see things even present the hypothesises equal fasion find the theist argument not plausible speak against strong atheism also often find that the evidence supporting faith very subjective just say the evidence supporting love truth subjective believe answered that apologize for the you stated incorrect assumption your theism but saw nothing indicate that you were agnostic only that you were just another newbie christian the net trying get some cheap shots apology necessary bake timmons iii there nothing higher stronger more wholesome and more useful life than some good memory alyosha brothers karamazov dostoevsky
alt.atheism	help you god court article tan psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough says article monack helium monack helium gas uug arizona edu david monack writes another issue that having request not required recite the help god part the oath theistic jury may prejudiced against your testimony even though atheism probably not all relevant the case what the recommended procedure for requesting alternate oath affirmation dave sorry for using follow respond but server dropped about weeks worth news when couldn keep when the you are asked swear help you god and you have say ask which one jesus allah vishnu zues odin get them specific don obnoxious just humbly ask then quitely sit back and watch the fun james felder sverdrup technology inc phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email jfelder lerc nasa gov some people drink from the fountain knowledge other people gargle
alt.atheism	some thoughts article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes deletia wrt pathetic jee zus posting bissel hope you not going flame him please give him the same coutesy you given hasn extended the courtesy you shown don get pie tammy respect your beliefs because you don try stamp them into being have scorn for posters whose sole purpose appears evangelize tammy
alt.atheism	who says the apostles were tortured the traditions the church hold that all the apostles meaning the surviving disciples matthias barnabas and paul were martyred except for john tradition should understood read early church writings other than the bible and heteroorthodox scriptures wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	some thoughts article saturn wwc edu bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself sounds like you are saying was part some conspiracy just what organization did belong does have name the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was logic alert artificial trifercation the are many other possible explainations could have been that never existed there have been some good points made this group that not impossible that amalgam number different myths mithra comes mind some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed call fool but believe did heal people logic alert argument from incredulity just because hard for you believe this doesn mean that isn true liars can very pursuasive just look koresh that you yourself site has followers that don think fake and they have shown that they are willing die not giving after getting shot himself koresh has shown that too will die for what believes far healing goes rememer right the healing that was attributed not consistent between the different gospels one them the healing that done not any more that faith healers can pull off today seems that the early gospels weren that compeling the stories got bigger appeal better niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing might not have existed any number things that the logical pitfall that those who use flawed logic like this fall into there are bifurcations tri quad etc that are valid because the proceeding steps the person shows conclusively that the alternatives are all that are possible once everyone agrees that the given set indeed all there are then arguments among the alternatives can presentent and one mostly likely true can deduced excluding all other possible alternatives however can shown that the set not all inclusive then any conclusions bases the incomplete set are invalid even the true choice one the original choices have given least one valid alternative the conclusion that the real mccoy just because isn one the other two alternative longer valid some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use was rabbi knew what those prophecies were wouldn any great shakes make sure one does list actions that would fullfill prophecy what would compeling there were set clear and explicit prophecies and had absolutely knowledge then yet fullfilled them anyway don think most people understand what christian certainly not what see lot churches rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake loved enough die and save should the same hey can god himself inspires turn our lives over him that tuff and most people don want real christian would something for the strong persevere but just like weight lifting guitar playing drums whatever takes time don rush one day christianity your whole life not going church once week helping poor people once while box everything into time units such work this time sports social life god above these boxes and should carried with into all these boxes that have created for ourselves here agree with you anyone who buys into this load mythology should take what says seriously and what says that must total way life have very little respect for xians that don the myth true then true its entirity the picking and choosing that see lot leaves bad taste mouth jim james felder sverdrup technology inc phone nasa lewis research center cleveland ohio email jfelder lerc nasa gov some people drink from the fountain knowledge other people gargle
alt.atheism	some thoughts fri apr gmt healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy said trh hope you not going flame him please give him the same coutesy you trh given but you have been courteous and therefore received courtesy return this person instead has posted one the worst arguments have ever seen made from the pro christian people known several jesuits who would laugh his face presented such argument them let ignore the fact that not true trilemma for the moment nice word maddi original real word and concentrate the liar lunatic part the argument claims that one would follow liar let alone thousands people look ron hubbard now was probably not all there but think was mostly liar and con artist but look how many thousands people follow dianetics and scientology think the baker and swaggert along with several other televangelists lie all the time but look the number follower they have for lunatics the best example hitler was obviously insane his advisors certainly thought yet had whole country entralled and came close ruling all europe how many germans gave their lives for him this day has his followers just amazed that people still try use this argument just obviously wrong mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	thoughts christians apr gmt bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine said article ofnwyg voa andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu patrick leger writes ever hear baptism birth that isn preying the young don know what that praying the young preying the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible the same thing scotsmen where under there kilt never forget the day when was about tweleve and accidently walked roomfull priests sitting around their underware drinking beer and watching football kind changed opinion bit they didn seem menacing after that mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	victims various good fight apr levels unisa edu the desert brat said tdb disease introduced brazilian oher tribes million fair this was going happen eventually given time the americans would have reached europe their own and the same thing would have happened was just matter who got together first mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality frank uucp frank dwyer writes article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes and these objective values are please specific and more importantly motivate take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable yes but whose freedom the world general doesn seem value the freedom tibetans for example mathew
alt.atheism	koresh god the latest news seems that koresh will give himself once finished writing sequel the bible mathew
alt.atheism	where are they now article innf senator bedfellow mit edu tcbruno athena mit edu tom bruno writes stuff deleted which brings the point posting how many people out there have been around alt atheism since done damnedest stay top more stuff deleted hmm usenet got collective hooks into around right after switched engineering say started reading alt atheism around probably not posted more than messages the time since then though never understand how people can find the time write much can barely keep mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality reply frank uucp frank dwyer one those people who does not know what the word objective means when put next the word morality assume its idiom and cannot defined its separate terms give try objective morality morality built from objective values from dictionary philosophy anthony flew objectivism the belief that there are certain moral truths that would remain true whatever anyone everyone thought desired for instance one should ever deliberately inflict pain another simply take pleasure his suffering might thought plausible example even world sadists who all rejected the contention remains true just remains correct even there one left count the problem for the objectivist determine the status moral truths and the method which they can established accept that such judgements are not reports what but only relate what ought see naturalistic fallacy then they cannot proved any facts about the nature the world nor can they analytic since this would involve lack action guiding content one ought always the right thing plainly true virtue the vords involved but unhelpful practical guide action see analytic and synthetic this point the objectivist may talk self evident truths but can deny the subjectivist claim that self evidence the mind the beholder not what left the claim that some moral judgements are true the subjectivist may well feel that all that remains that there are some moral judgements with which would wish associate himself hold moral opinion suggests not know something true but have preferences regarding human activity david nye nyeda cnsvax uwec edu midelfort clinic eau claire this patently absurd but whoever wishes become philosopher must learn not frightened absurdities bertrand russell
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article apr andrews nrp andrews norman paterson writes don think you right about germany daughter was born there and don think she has any german rights vote live there beyond the rights all citizens she british citizen virtue her parentage but that not full citizenship for example don think her children could british virtue her the same way fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship making application for might require immigration germany but almost certain that once applied for citizenship inevitable this case more interesting your sentence fact many people try come the have their children born here that they will have some human rights how does the compare islamic country this respect people iran their children will have some human rights would you more interesting only for your propaganda purposes have said several times now that don consider iran particularly exemplary good islamic state might talk about the rights people capitalist secular third world countries give other examples the lack rights third world countries broadly say for example central american secular capitalist countries whose govt the supports but who amnesty international has pointed out are human rights vacua gregg
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes article jxru news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes what you base your belief atheism your knowledge and reasoning couldn that wrong actually atheism based ignorance ignorance the existence any god don fall into the atheists don believe because their pride mistake how you know based ignorance couldn that wrong why would wrong fall into the trap that you mentioned also may what the heck where talking about and why didn keep some comments there see what the line thoughts were mac bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea michael cobb and won raise taxes the middle university illinois class pay for programs champaign urbana bill clinton debate cobb alexia lis uiuc edu with new taxes and spending cuts still have billion dollar deficits
alt.atheism	koresh god fri apr mathew mathew mantis said the latest news seems that koresh will give himself once finished writing sequel the bible also the now can the feds get him tax evasion don remember hearing about him running the post office last night mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	the pope jewish west next cville wam umd edu stilgar writes the pope jewish always thought that the pope was bear you know because that little saying does bear shit the woods the pope catholic there must some connection between those two lines
alt.atheism	bible quiz article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article qgbmt usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu frank kirschner writes only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible since when does atheism mean trashing other religions there must god inbreeding which you are his only son pope john paul
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women benedikt rosenau dbstu wrote when the object their belief said perfect and make the believers act certain way and observe that they don have contradiction something defined contradictorily cannot exist that what the believe does not exist secondly there are better explanations for why they believe than the existence the object their belief have you read the faq already benedikt benedikt can recall anyone claiming that god makes anyone act particlar way think that you attempting manufacture contradiction god said require certain behavior but the only compulsion the believer sense duty standard conduct does exist but are free ignore misunderstand distort whatever ways find convenient but our response god edicts can way used question god existence the behavior believers completely separate question from that god existence there nothing contradictory here say that something defined contadictorily cannot exist really asking too much you would have existence depend grammar all you can really say that something poorly defined but that itself insufficient decide anything other than confusion course your point that there are better reasons for the phenomenon belief than the object belief may lead rat nest unnecessary complexity think know what you implying but like see your version this better alternative just the same bill
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu wrote regardless people hidden motivations the stated reasons for many wars include religion course you can always claim that the real reason was economics politics ethnic strife whatever but the fact remains that the justification for many wars has been conquer the heathens you want say for instance that economics was the chief cause the crusades you could certainly make that point but someone could come along and demonstrate that was really something else the same manner you show that was really not religion you could this manner eliminate all possible causes for the crusades scott don have make outrageous claims about religion affecting and effecting history for the purpsoe all have point out that many claims made here are wrong and nothing validate atheism time have made any statement that religion was the sole cause anything what have done point out that those who make that kind claim are mistaken usually deliberately credit religion with the awesome power dominate history misunderstand human nature the function religion and course history believe that those who distort history this way know exaclty what they doing and only for affect bill
alt.atheism	some thoughts james felder spbach lerc nasa gov wrote logic alert argument from incredulity just because hard for you believe this doesn mean that isn true liars can very pursuasive just look koresh that you yourself cite this whole basis great many here rejecting the christian account things the words madalyn murrey hair face folks just silly why okay disbelieve because your incredulity you admit that fallacy bill
alt.atheism	some thoughts kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine wrote someone spank wrong but didn lord liar lunatic originate with lewis who this campollo fellow anyway think and isn there clear connection with the believe because absurd notion one the original christians origen there similar statement attributed anselm believe that may understand both cases reason somewhat less exalted than anyone posting here could accept which means that neither statement can properly analysed this venue bill
alt.atheism	thoughts christians mccreary edm twisto compaq com wrote apr gmt bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine said article ofnwyg voa andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu patrick leger writes ever hear baptism birth that isn preying the young don know what that praying the young preying the young comes later when the bright eyed little altar boy finds out what the priest really wears under that chasible does this statement further the atheist cause some way surely not intended wit bill
alt.atheism	thoughts christians kent sandvik sandvik newton apple com wrote this good point but think average people not take christianity much out fear escapism but quite simply way improve their social life get more involved with american culture they are kids immigrants for example since the overwhelming major religion the western world some form other simply the choice people take they are bored and want something new with their lives but not somethong too new too out the ordinary seems little weak but long doesn hurt anybody the social pressure indeed very important factor for the majority passive christians our world today the case early christianity the promise heavenly afterlife independent your social status was also very promising gift reason slaves and non romans accepted the religion very rapidly this hypothetical proposition you should say fact you should cite your sources all this the amateur sociologist sub branch however would suffice alert the unwary that you are just screwing around bill
alt.atheism	nicknames maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com wrote jcopelan nyx edu the one and only writes could start with those posters who annoy the most like bobby bill your wish command bill shit stirrer connor bobby circular mozumder not sure new nom net exactly appropriate but comes very close considering what have wade through before make one insightful dead the money repsonses have agree that something getting stirred would like believe characterization what respond would kinder though but you insist also surprised find that have offended anyone but some cases unavoidable say anything all for those whom fairness important check out contributions haven been most generous and patient veritable paragon gentility btw don mind being paired with bobby admire his tenacity how many you would well this hostile environment you think offensive read your own posts love and kisses bill name conner not connor point humiliating the innocents
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women keith ryan kmr cwru edu wrote nice cop out bill sure you right but have idea what you refer would you mind explaining how copped out bill
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists this fascinating atheists argue for abortion defend homosexuality means population control insist that the only values are biological and condemn war and capital punishment according benedikt something contardictory cannot exist which this case means atheists suppose would like understand how atheist can object war excellent means controlling population growth capital punishment sorry but the logic escapes and why just capital punishment what being questioned here the propriety killing punishment what the basis the ecomplaint bill
alt.atheism	americans and evolution robert singleton bobs thnext mit edu wrote sure isn mutually exclusive but lends weight increases notional running estimates the posterior probability the atheist pitch the partition and thus necessarily reduces the same quantity the theist pitch this because the divine component falls prey ockham razor the phenomenon being satisfactorily explained without and there being independent evidence any such component more detail the next post occam razor not law nature way analyzing argument even interesting how often cited here and what end seems odd that religion simultaneously condemned being primitive simple minded and unscientific anti intellectual and childish and yet again condemned being too complex occam razor the scientific explanation things being much more straightforeward and apparently simpler which which the non essential and how you know considering that even scientists don fully comprehend science due its complexity and diversity maybe william occam has performed lobotomy kept the frontal lobe and thrown everything else away this all very confusing sure one you will straighten out tough bill
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics timmbake mcl ucsb edu bake timmons writes you have disproved one thing but you failed nail see nowhere post did claim that something must believed here are the three possibilities god exists god does not exist don know attack was strong atheism since guess what you said below that makes weak atheist snip first all you seem reasonable guy why not try more honest and include sentence afterwards that honest just ended like that swear hmmmm recognize the warning signs alternating polite and rude coming into newsgroup with huge chip shoulder calls people names and then makes nice whirrr click whirrr clam bake timmons bill shit stirrer connor whirr click whirr frank dwyer might also contained that shell pop stack determine whirr click whirr killfile keith allen schneider frank closet theist dwyer the mind reels maybe they all bobby mozumder maddi hausmann madhaus netcom com centigram communications corp san jose california kids please don try this home remember post professionally
alt.atheism	death penalty was political athei article apr abo mandtbacka finabo abo mats andtbacka writes rusnews mantis mathew writes wonder noam chomsky reading this could wrong but actually talking about outright government control the media aka censorship doesn any quick one stop shopping reference his works that tell short what does argue for manufacturing consent film about the media you alternative movie source may have this book your local alternative theatre contact films transit international sales jan rofekamp notre dame montreal quebec canada tel fax telex filmtransmtl readers call zeitgeist films shamim mohamed uunet noao cmcl arizona shamim shamim arizona edu take this cross and garlic here mezuzah jewish page the koran muslim and zen buddhist you your own member the league for programming freedom write lpf uunet net
alt.atheism	requests article vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes from bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine subject requests date apr gmt article qllg mailer fsu edu mayne fsu edu writes excess stuff deleted however seems that local church elder has been getting revelations from god about devastating quake scheduled level the area may has independent corroboration from several friends who apparently have had similar revelations the quake was fact response request from the lot them seeking sign from god the veracity their visions none this would terribly interesting except for the amount stir has created the area many many people are taking these claims very seriously there are some making plans out the are the target date local religious radio station devoted hours discussion the topic even called during one the live broadcasts tell the host that would have full account conversion may provided family and survived the devastation and ruin that will invariably follow the quake bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea know similar incident about years ago climatologist ithink that was his profession named iben browning predicted that earthquake would hit the new madrid fault dec some schools missouri that were the fault line actually cancelled school for the day many people evacuated new madrid and other towns teh are wouldn suprised there were more journalists the area than residents course teh earthquake never occured how know about his used live southern illinois and the lican middle school was built directly the fault line still had school laughed the poor idiots who believed the prediction bob you wanting excuse convert christianity you gonna have look elsewhere tammy trim healy
alt.atheism	studies book mormon article snx enkidu mic agrino enkidu mic andres grino brandt writes from agrino enkidu mic andres grino brandt subject studies book mormon date sun apr cst don know much about mormons and want know about serious independent studies about the book mormon don buy the official story about the gold original taken heaven but haven read the book mormon myself have much work learning biblical hebrew will appreciate any comment about the results study style vocabulary place names internal consistency and for example there evidence for one writer multiple writers there are some mention about events places historical persons later discovered archeologist yours collen andres grino brandt casilla santiago agrino enkidu mic chile hay mas realidad que realidad razon profeta don think the book mormon was supposedly translated from biblical hebrew read that prophet joseph smith traslated the gold tablets from some sort egyptian ish language former mormons please post tammy trim healy
alt.atheism	societal basis for morality article prv news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb wrote have expect others follow our notion societally mandated morality pardon the extremism but couldn murder your brother and say that was exercising rights saw them was doing what felt good didn want anyone forcing their morality don follow your morality good statement should apply empirical measurements define exact social morals should morals based social rules ancient religious doctrines seems there will never common and single denominator for defining morals and such defining absolute and objective morals doomed fail long humans have this incredible talent creative thinking cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote fred the problem with such reasoning that for non believers need better measurement tool state that person real muslim christian while person not know there are such tools and anyone could believe religion misuse its power and otherwise make bad clearly shows the sore points with religion other words show movement that can spin off khomeinis stalins davidians husseins don think such system exists think the reason for that condition known free will humans have got anybody using their free will can tell lies and half truths about any system and thus abuse for their own ends don think such tools exist either addition there such thing objective information all together looks like religion and any doctrines could freely misused whatever purpose this all reminds descartes whispering deamon you can trust anything why bother cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	free moral agency article pxqs darkside osrhe uoknor edu bil okcforum osrhe edu bill conner wrote for your question moral free agency given the christian position above the freedom have acknowledge god the morality practice direct outgrowth how excercise that freedom you are free ignore god the same way you are free ignore gravity and the consequences are inevitable and well known both cases that atheist can accept the evidence means only that prefers not accept says nothing about the evidence itself agree had hard feeling not believing grand grand mother who told elves dancing outside barns the early mornings preferred not accept even her statement provided the truth itself life hard cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article mvo blaze jhu edu arromdee jyusenkyou jhu edu ken arromdee wrote article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam from the point view atheist see you claim khomeini wasn practicing true islam but sure that would have said the same about you how member neither group supposed able tell which one you two really true muslim fred rice answered this already early posting the problem with your argument that you not know who real believer and who may faking this something known only the person him herself and god your assumption that anyone who claims believer believer not necessarily true other words seems that nobody could define who true and false muslim are back square one khomeini and hussein are still innocent and can defined evil good islamic worshippers cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	islamic authority over women article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice wrote the problem with your argument that you not know who real believer and who may faking this something known only the person him herself and god your assumption that anyone who claims believer believer not necessarily true that still leaves the door totally open for khomeini hussein rest they could still considered true muslims and you can judge them because this something between god and the person you have apply your rule well with atheists agnostics you don know their belief this something between them and god why the hoopla about khomeini not being real muslim and the hoopla about atheists being not real human beings cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	suggestion for resources faq date mon apr gmt from bruce stephens bruce liverpool think good book summarizing and comparing religions would good confess don know any indeed that why checked the faq see had one but sure some alert reader does think the list books suffers far too much from being christian based agree that most the traffic this nature although few islamic references might good but still think overview would nice one book have which presents fairly unbiased account many religions called man religions john noss was textbook class had comparative religion some such thing has some decent bibliographies each chapter jumping off point for further reading doesn compare religions directly but describes each one individually and notes few similarities but nothing have read could even remotely described preachy christian based fact christianity mercifully consumes only its nearly pages the book divided according major regions the world where the biggies began india east asia near east there nothing about new world religions from the aztecs mayas incas etc just the stuff people kill each other over nowadays and few the older religions snuffed out along the way you like the old stuff then couple books called the ancient near east james pritchard are pretty cool got the epic gilgamesh code hammurabi all the stuff from way back when men were gods and gods were men essential reading for anyone who wishes make their own religion and make sound real good
alt.atheism	amusing atheists and agnostics date apr gmt from bake timmons timmbake mcl ucsb edu there are few atheists with time their hands first apologize didn bother reading the faq first and fired imprecise flame that was inexcusable how about the nickname bake flamethrower timmons you weren the koresh compound around noon today any chance were you remember koresh dried for your sins and pass that beef jerky umm umm
alt.atheism	objective values scientific accuracy was after years can say that christian morality article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis wrote lpzsml unicorn nott steve lang writes values can also refer meaning for example computer science the value true and false not lisp true all you need define one statement that defined one polarity and all the other states are considered the other polarity then again what the meaning nil false true cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	all mary fault dfuller portal videocart com dave fuller writes nice attempt chris verrry close you missed the conspiracy step joseph knew who knocked her couldn let known that somebody else got mary prego that wouldn well for his popularity the local circles what happened that she was feeling guilty was feeling embarrassed and they decided improve both their images what could have otherwise been the downfall for both clever indeed come think have gained new respect for the couple maybe joseph and mary should receive all the praise being paid jesus lucky for them that the baby didn have any obvious deformities could just see now mary gets pregnant out wedlock save face she and joseph say that was god that got her pregnant and then the baby turns out deformed even worse stillborn they have lot explaining dave buckminster fuller how that one keeper the nicknames nanci you know and are sure the author this quote please send email andrew cmu edu life does not cease funny when people die any more than ceases serious when people laugh
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes how would man century arabia have known what not include the holy qur assuming had authored now judging the qur what not how many mutton headed arguments going have wade through today lots other books have been written this subject those books can speak far more eloquently than one would hope bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes not sure about this but think the charge shatim also applies rushdie and may encompassed under the umbrella the fasad ruling please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again john david munch jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu the heart can change full hate love people are allowed base their lives through their hearts anything can happen dangerous situation opinion bobby mozumder describing problems with atheism
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article apr nott eczcaw mips nott wainwright writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes the authorities referring the authority the world islamic community over itself point was simply that islamic law does apply muslims wherever they are despite the fact that islamic law may not enforcable non islamic countries muslims residing the may decide tried whatever the islamic community but their rulings have legal consequences these isles not really their decision tried the rulings have legal consequences but only islamic law and not law this should obvious enforcing judgment distinct from the making judgment take for example the judgments the world court this internationally recognized tribunal whose judgments often have physical economic effect but which are important despite the fact that their judgments cannot enforced the person may excommunicated similar but decided mete out violent laws such the fatwa then would breaking laws itself and the persons doing such would liable prosecution course have you read any this thread before this post ignore the country laws preference religious laws which are not indigenous the country question absurd and arrogant notion course sort anarchism anarchism explicitly against islam thank you for your well reasoned response but beside the points been making this thread gregg
alt.atheism	jewish settlers demolish mosque gaza iwxm news chalmers bertil dtek chalmers bertil jonell writes article kutluk ccl umist kutluk ccl umist kutluk ozguven writes atheists are not mentioned the quran because from quranic point view and minute reasoning one can see that there such thing but there are people who say that they are atheists they aren atheists what are they when the quran uses the word din means way individual thinking behaving communal order and protocols based set beliefs this often interpreted the much weaker term religion the atheists are not mentioned the quran along with jews mushriqin christians etc because the latter are all din have din you need set beliefs assumptions etc forma social code for example the marxist have those such history conflict etc that they not put idols sometimes they did represent those assuptions does not mean they are any different from the other mushriq roughly polytheists there cannot social atheism because when there community that community needs common ideas standard beliefs coordinate the society when they inscribe assumptions say nation progress the natural consequence human activity parlamentarian democracy doubtlessly the best way government however they individually insist they not have gods from the quranic point view they therefore definition atheism does not exist are atheist society fact means reject the din other than ours atheism can only exist when people reject all the idols gods dogmas suppositions the society that they part and that case that personal deviation belief and quran tells about such deviations and disbelief but mentioned from quranic point looking things there atheism the macro level think took more than one minute kutluk
alt.atheism	nostalgia the recent rise nostalgia this group combined with the incredible level utter bullshit has prompted comb through archives and pull out some the best alt atheism for your reading pleasure post couple these day unless group concensus demands that stop run out good material haven been particularly careful the past about saving attributions think the following comes from john johnson but someone correct wrong this probably the longest entire collection that the prophecy fulfilled considering the christian religion and judging according its claims important look its claims fulfilling earlier jewish prophecy the scribe matthew perhaps the most eager draw out what thinks are prophetic answers the career jesus nazareth you will see matthew main strategy take various old testament passages often not even about the promised messiah and apply them the circumstances the new testament must also bear mind the question the authenticity the accounts since the gospels were written least years after jesus was executed not know how much happened exactly stated but for purposes analysis will take particular claims face value immanuel begin course the beginning mary will bear son and you joseph will name him jesus which means salvation for will save his people from their sins all this happened fulfil what the lord had spoken prophet isaiah the days ahaz bce king judah rezin syria and pekah israel made war jerusalem capitol judah but could not quite conquer when the house david ahaz and his court judah were told this its heart and the heart its people shook and the lord said isaiah meet with ahaz and the lord spoke ahaz through prophet isaiah naturally saying ask sign your lord can deep sheol high heaven but ahaz said won ask will not put the lord test then isaiah said hear then house david not enough for you weary men that you must weary god too therefore the lord himself will give you sign behold young woman with child and will bear son and name him immanuel which means with will eat curds and honey when knows how refuse evil and choose good for before the child knows how refuse evil and choose good the land the two kings you dread will have been deserted matthew homes just the sentence that italics further the hebrew word almah young woman specifically virgin but this not prophecy about the messiah not prophecy about event happen years later not prophecy about virgin bethulah mother short not about jesus matthew has made use verse out context and tries make fit the specific case mary should noted that want read the prophecy general manner very general one can made fit mary mary virgin not was indeed young woman with child course the fit shady and has problems jesus while thought later christians walking among men was never called the name immanuel christianity wished claim this prophecy for jesus becomes best cut and paste prophecy second class prophecy not too convincing egypt after jesus birth bethlehem matthew tells about quick and elsewhere unmentioned excursion egypt wishes liken jesus moses this was done escape alleged infanticidal rampage the king herod and remained there until the death herod this was fulfil what the lord had spoken out egypt have cal led son what the lord really said was this hosea when israel was child loved him and out egypt called son the more called them people the more they went from they kept sacrificing the als and kept burning incense idols matthew conveniently omits the rest hosea oracle but was indeed israel that once called out egypt wanted return this history jesus certainly not being spoken here and are draw some kind parallel here wind with jesus that flees and resists again this prophecy just not convincing matthew probably had hoped rachel weeps while jesus off vacationing egypt matthew says that king herod sought kill him and thus ordered the executions all young male children matthew then writes this that which was spoken the prophet jeremiah was fulfilled voice was heard ramah wailing and loud lamentation rachel weeping for her children she refused consoled because they were more the reference passage jeremiah referring the carrying off israel into exile sargon assyria bce rachel the ancestor the major tribes israel ephraim and manasseh said weep for her descendants who are more metaphorical course since rachel lived and dies before the hebrews were even the egyptian exile interesting note that was leah not rachel who was the ancestor the judeans the land where jesus and bethlehem were anyone should weeping for her children leah the only connexion that rachel has with bethlehem that the legends have that she was buried north the city the way ephrath bethlehem for herod and his infanticide rather unlikely that such event actually occurred one never knows but the event not mentioned alluded anywhere else the bible nor mentioned any the secular records the time herod was particularly unliked his reign and many far less evil deeds herod were carefully recorded this might prime example how events were added jesus life enhance the message the church gospel because the whole story similarity the tale the infant moses egypt highly likely that device set matthew add prophetic yet artificial approval jesus not surprising that matthew conveniently neglects mention the rest the jeremiah quote the children the prophet speaks are not dead but exiled the assyrian empire comforts the weeping rachel saying that the children will returned will gather them back together course this would not suit matthew purpose the children speaks are dead for good again the prophecy matthew sets not even that and anyone who bothers check out not too convincing the nazarene not even have the next chapter find another matthean prophecy after leaving egypt joseph wife take the infant jesus live the city nazareth that what was spoken the prophets might fulfilled shall called nazarene first thing notice that matthew does not mention the name the prophet this time second have ask who there are messianic prophecies speaking nazarene worse there are prophecies period mentioning nazarene still worse there are nazarenes mentioned the old testament all the book judges angel tells samson mother that she will judges conceive and bear son razor shall tough his head for will nazirite his god from the day his birth will deliver israel from the hands the philistines this course not prophecy jesus the messiah but the best that can found obviously matthew has begun overboard cut and paste prophecies that simple making them now bearing our diseases jesus next goes around healing people physical illnesses and disabilities this was fulfil what was spoken the prophet isaiah took our infirmities and bore our diseases expected the verse quoted isaiah quoted out context and few words are skewed fit the christian scheme have surely the suffering servant has borne our sickness and carried our pains from reading the surrounding passages isaiah know that the prophet speaking present tense the collective nation israel jehovah chosen servant and people speaks the israelites suffering exile the voice the gentile nations that look upon this image deeply ingrained jewish identity image chastised yet cherished israel the instrument the nations salvation the verses speak israel taking the sicknesses which are the literal and metaphorical manifestations guilt and discipline they not speak servant going around and healing people notice that the servant isaiah takes the sicknesses and pains the nations and individual jews jesus all know did not take the diseases onto himself the verses here isaiah are not prophecy something come but rather something that had already happened while believed that jesus took the eternal punishment hell did not bear the illnesses healed while someone might want say that figuratively jesus reenacted the deeds israel his spiritual atonement has admit that matthew parallel misses where intended have its effect silent messiah upon healing multitudes commoners said that jesus ordered them keep quiet presumable that wouldn arouse the attention the local rulers this was fulfill what was spoken the prophet isaiah behold servant whom have chosen beloved with whom soul pleased will put spirit him and will announce justice the gentiles will not wrangle cry aloud nor will anyone hear his voice the streets will not break bruised reed quench smoldering wick until brings justice victory and the gentiles will hope his name the isaiah passage quoted reads behold servant whom uphold chosen whom soul delights have put spirit him and will bring forth justice the nations will not cry lift his voice make heard the street will not break bruised reed quench smoldering wick will faithfully bring forth justice will not fail burn dimly discouraged bruised until has established justice the earth and the coastlands await his law you see matthew has conveniently left out part the passage because does not suit the dealings jesus christians could never think jesus failing never would the light mankind burn dimly but the servant nation israel will indeed come end when its job done when the gentiles come embrace there will longer chosen people but rather all will the children also the ending phrase has been changed from the judaic the coastlands await his law the christologic the gentiles will hope his name while the original proclaims the torah law jehovah the other rewrites fit its strange doctrine believing the name one has any doubt the servant referred not jesus one has only read the whole chapter isaiah and hear about the beloved but blind and imperfect servant people robbed and plundered see that when matthew attempt prophecy examined crumbles three days and three nights now come upon prophecy supposedly uttered the very mouth the god jesus himself speaks his crucifixion and resurrection for jonah was the belly the whale for three days and three nights will the son man the heart the earth three days and three nights before any further discussion can occur necessary know how the jews understood days far day names went each was hours long lasting from sunset the following sunset what was referred day was the period light from the ending sunset thus according our time scale sabbath day began friday evening and lasted until saturday evening this why the jews celebrate their sabbath the daylight portion saturdays instead sundays seems like real miracle that christians didn forget that saturday was indeed the seventh and last day the week thus when days and nights are referred together hour daylight portions and hour night periods are being spoken thus jesus says that will the grave hell otherwise unresurrected for three days and three nights the good book tells jesus was crucified the ninth hour which friday afternoon then was put into the grave sometime after that then jesus left the grave rose before dawn what call sunday the dawn after the sabbath was over what this means that jesus was using our time for clarity the grave from friday night some time before sunday morning could also add little time before friday since the bible not specific here what this means using jewish time that was the grave for one day two nights and possibly couple hours one day certainly this problem for jesus prediction there absolutely way are even able have his death involve three days and three nights even using modern time measurements then are led suspect that this error another one matthew little mistakes and that the gospel writer put false words into his god mouth and matter who made the prediction more than unconvincing counter convincing hearing understanding jesus tool habit speaking his vast audiences parables stories which deeper meaning could found you were already one the elect those chosen understand the message jesus reasons that those who can understand the parables are the ones wants the people cannot understand them there need bother with them since they will not accept the plain message any better matthew says with them the audience indeed fulfilled the prophecy isaiah which says you will indeed hear but never understand and you will indeed see but never perceive because this people heart has grown dull their ears are heavy hearing and they have shut their eyes the they would not perceive with them her with their ears and understand with their heart and turn for heal them the original isaiah passages are part his earlier works his call the ministry this bce when israel flourishing right before falls under the authority assyria isaiah sees the good times ending and also vision from calling him bring reform israel and judah and said and say this people hear and hear but not understand see and see but not perceive make the heart this people fat make their ears heavy and shut their eyes they will not see with their eyes hear with their ears and understand with their hearts and turn and healed then isaiah said how long lord and said until the cities lie waste without inhabitant and houses without men and the land utterly desolate and the take men far away and forsaken places are many the land and though tenth will remain will burned again like terebinth oak whose stump still stands when the tree felled the holy seed its stump here see that really who causes the people israel stop listening the prophet warnings but reaffirms the promise made solomon and david seed lineage you read the rest isaiah you find that this done fulfil the plan use israel servant light the nations look isaiah see that matthew has cut and pasted just little portion isaiah verse suit his own gospel needs more than that has altered the words make fit the people who didn understand jesus stories and see isaiah verses are not prophecies but rather commands from him the present once again matthew prophecy falls flat its face matthew tries again make jesus parables look like they have the prophetic approval said nothing them without parable this was fulfil what was spoken the prophet will open mouth them parables will utter that which has been hidden since the foundation the world matthew really botches here attempts quote not from prophet but from the psalms will open mouth parable will utter dark sayings old things that all have heard and known things that our fathers have told will not hide them from their children but tell the coming generation the glorious deeds the lord was pointed out the verses the psalms not really come from prophet you might also want know that earlier copies matthew gospel even inserted isaiah name this prophet apparently later scribes caught the error and tried cover some perhaps the most significant part this that once again matthew has altered the old testament scriptures jesus has said earlier speaks parables that some will not understand them the parables the psalms are not hidden further they speak things known that our fathers have told jesus deals with things hidden since the foundation the world indeed jesus dealt lot secrecy and confusion this direct opposition the parables the psalms wonder matthew had rewrite them and still once again matthew artificial prophecies fall flat their face but christians rarely look this matthew prophecies aren the only things about christianity that are beginning look bad excuses little faith see that the disciples are able around casting out demons except one case not knowing what epilepsy was the people thought those with the disease were possesed with demons wonder that the disciples were unable dispossess the epileptic but jesus perhaps more enlightened than they reported have rebuked them saying they didn have enough faith this seems strange why was this demon special seems that either true believer has faith does not apparently enough faith will allow someone move mountains course you will find one these days that can move real mountains one parts seas the only miracles the charismatics can speak are those rumoured happen trips mexico some faraway place major miracles are making some old woman arthritis feel better sunday morning and the gods including jesus are always shrouded ancient lore and writings protected from the skeptics their sacred pasts they are either dead sleeping hiding heaven with people rumouring about their imminent return and their great miracles days long gone yet life goes tales mystics stories miracles all distant time distant place gods used reveal themselves men the old days jehovah too but now they are silent all the theologians give are various excuses why don get see god anymore too lazy not zealous enough sinful just his plan put too many our own demands appearance had the right faith were willing meet his terms yet even the most pious men have not seen you dear reader have not seen not literally you know that true know that presumptuous and bold but searching your heart you know what mean all that seen religions make people feel good and content about not seeing they say our little faith does not merit see sometimes they say see the love these people you worship with see the lives people change that seeing thus people get lulled sleep satisfied with turning into the everyday sights but that not seeing speaking not seeing the way people used see what see the world that good the compassion human hearts the love given and taken men and women the forgiveness practised christian atheist alike beauty created the mind man these are the things that are done these are what see but said this only because everybody has little faith jesus rides ass shortly after accepting the role the jewish messiah king jesus requests donkey brought for him ride into jerusalem this took place fulfil what was spoken the prophet saying tell the daughter zion behold your king coming you humble mounted ass and ass colt course the passage quoted from zechariah reads little differently your king comes you triumphant and victorious humble and riding ass ass colt will command peace the nations there isn all that much difference here except that zechariah only involves one animal ass colt while matthew reads the poetic wording slightly differently thus has jesus call for both colt and adult ass from matthew version get comical picture the divine christ sweating straddle two donkeys this could inevitably lead theological proctological dilemma find that the account written earlier mark only the colt was called for and brought jesus this indeed fits the verses zechariah properly and shows that matthew attempt use prophetic verses has bungled now excluding many respectable christians have met have noticed that while christ thought have ridden asses the situation often reversed nowadays then entering the jerusalem temple the priests were angered people and youngsters calling jesus the messiah but jesus replied might expect matthew have done haven you read out the mouth babes and sucklings thou has brought perfect praise more likely that matthew made this response since jesus was never one point out such little prophetic things and since might expect the quote error which seems fit matthew track record quite well might ask jesus matthew haven you read for the source reads psalms yahweh our lord how majestic your name the whole world you whose glory chanted above the heavens babes and infants you have founded bulwark against your foes still the enemy and the avenger the passages hardly need comment there perfect praise spoken the psalm and what praise there given not his messiah king and not jesus mentioned seems just one more case matthew pen making convenient prophetic scripture yhvh said lord jesus said have asked from whom the promised jewish messiah king descended the jews agree king david but then jesus counters quoting psalms the lord said lord sit right hand until put your enemies under your feet taken face value jesus denying the necessity davidic descent one assumes opposition their answer course the christian answer that agrees but trying make some hidden point reveal some mystery about the divine nature the messiah king tempting believe this one christian and not interested matters investigation but there are problems jesus time the psalm was thought about the messiah and easy see why david might refer the messiah his superior need only look the scriptures about the messiah see that expected great king bringing the jews times even better than those under david rule course the jews listening had good answer and the passage could indeed refer divine messiah such the christians worship the problem lies the meaning this psalm error that apparently several jews jesus time had also made one must remember that there were various factions among the jews often result different expectations the messiah king jesus was apparently one these adventists like his audience who thought the messiah advent was imminent and who interpreted psalms among others being messianic what the problem then psalm literally reads yhvh utterance lord sit right hand until make your enemies your footstool yhvh sends forth your mighty scepter from zion rule the midst your foes your people will offer themselves freely the day you lead your host the holy mountains you are priest the order melchizedek forever the word lord often mistakenly capitalised christian bibles denote divinity this lord but the hebrew the word adoni and capitalisation exists adoni simply means lord generic term would use used often the scriptures refer kings and merely address respect there nothing the text itself imply that the word refers either divinity the messiah king that this supposed written david not certain the title the psalm translates either psalm david psalm about david seems fitting assume written court poet about david covenant and endorsement from the psalm had been written david unlikely that would talking about the messiah the idea perfect king descended from david was not present david age have extensive tales david doings and sayings none which include any praises messiah many the psalms show evidence being written long after david was dead times the exile when had put his show favour for david kingdom hold the description the psalm fit david very well david was promised rise power victory over his enemies successful judgement among the nations conquered achieved the priesthood common melchizedek being righteous king enabled bless the people all fits not have blame this problem matthew alone though here there not artificial prophecy alluded though his use the scripture rather questionable still this event common the other gospels too let matthew off little more easily this time interesting note though how matthew dresses the event the earlier gospel mark tells the tale with jesus simply speaking crowd matthew has the pharisees who became the religious competition infant christianity the target jesus question might expect matthew writes that the event ends embarrassing the pharisees such power the pen moses jesus had together all along leave the gospel story matthew momentarily see pseudo prophecy john gospel the gospel story john deserves special treatment because seems far removed from the real events jesus career told even matthew but for the moment will just look one verse the early church leaders founded religion the jewish hopes messiah king and artificial extension the original promises made when constructing the history abraham moses wrote promise land and nationhood the jewish people while this was accomplished eventually under the rule king david the christians who came along later decided that they would claim the fulfillment the promise but they expanded the promise preaching about heavenly kingdom john speaking your father abraham rejoiced see day say and was glad would nice tie approval for jesus from abraham but abraham knew nothing jesus messiah anything christian have tried and failed find any event the old testament which corresponds john little prophecy par for the course see john making old testament backings just like his forerunner matthew many christians know that their faith has many its foundations such fraud and surprising they still cling the potter field are told that jesus was betrayed while jerusalem one his followers judas iscariot matthew writes and throwing down the pieces silver the temple judas departed but the chief priests taking the silver said isn lawful for put the treasury since blood money they bought potter field with bury strangers then was fulfilled what was spoken the prophet jeremiah and they took the thirty pieces silver the price him whom price had been set some the sons israel and they gave them for the potter field the lord directed this prophecy utterly gross bastardisation old testament scripture first matthew has made mistake regarding the name the prophet zechariah who utters the verses which matthew makes use zech and they weighed out wages thirty shekels silver then yhvh said cast them the treasury the lordly price which was paid off them took the thirty shekels silver and cast them into the treasury the house yhvh first all the verses zechariah not deal with betrayer the messiah the deal with shepherd most likely priest chosen serve function presiding over the people shortly before would send judah and israel into conflict with one another the word treasury had been replaced the king james scholars with the potter precisely because this made matthew quote fit better but this blatant error the correct translation the hebrew indeed treasury which also makes perfect sense zechariah context whereas potter field totally unrelated whether the mistranslation was intentional not seems beyond speculation however given matthew track record one finds hard resist the notion intentional dishonesty course matthew would have ample reason for altering the text the thirty pieces silver match judas situation and most christians seem the reader willing disregard the contextual incongruity matthew might have another prophecy toss around however the correct translation zechariah directly contradicts the situation with judas and the high priests the high priests would not put the money the treasury the worthless shepherd zechariah does exactly the opposite course the average thursday night bible student the prophecy presented matthew would taken new testament face value those matthew work convincing enough wine vinegar casting lots then jesus led away crucified they gave him vinegar drink mingled with gall but when tasted would not drink and when they had crucified him they divided his garments among them casting lots that might fulfilled what was spoken the prophet they parted garments among them and upon vesture did they cast lots first all the vinegar offered jesus actually common sour wine the type that roman soldiers drank regularly find that right before jesus dies the soldiers themselves give him some drink not polluted with gall jesus said thirst bowl vinegar stood there they put sponge full the vinegar hyssop and held his mouth when had received the vinegar said finished but matthew seems drawing not passage from the prophets but one from the psalms looked for pity but there was none and for comforters but found none they gave poison for food lit they put gall meat and for thirst they gave vinegar drink add them punishment upon punishment may they have acquittal from thee let them blotted out the book the living course the sour wine offered jesus done his request drink this does indeed seem show pity the psalm quoted about david and his political and military enemies not about the messiah jesus then not surprising that run into further problem when see that the jesus the psalm asks for the damnation the crucifiers whereas the jesus the gospels says jesus said father forgive them the don know what they further matthew misses with his attempt create prophecy having gall bitter substance put into jesus drink not his meat the psalm stipulates with the prophecy the vinegar faulty naturally ask what the casting lots this brings the psalm which deserves discussion all itself suffice now say that the fact that jesus clothes were divided told great thing turns out that this happened often any felon those days will soon see perhaps the least erroneous passage the psalm when applied jesus does indeed bring the interesting question the quality jesus clothes for man removed from worldly possessions his ownership clothes worthy casting lots raises some suspicions the psalm this psalm attributed david lament his condition under the attack his enemies becomes song praise yhvh and hope taken out context parts seem fit the plight jesus the crucifixion quite well will examine the primary passages verse god god why have you forsaken why are you far from helping far from the words groaning god cry day but you don answer and night but find rest jesus said have cried the first sentence while the cross this suggests that the whole psalm really about jesus rather than king david course the rest the first stanza does not fit nicely jesus his execution jesus not pictured complaining about the whole ordeal supposed like the lamb led mute before its shearers indeed jesus doesn much groaning even when the cross certainly does not cry both day and night the cross but worm and man scorned men all who see mock they make faces and wag their heads committed his cause yhvh let him deliver him for delights him this seems fit jesus execution pretty well with the exception the holy messiah being called worm many bulls encompass they open their mouths widely like ravening and roaring lion yea dogs are round about company evildoers encir cle they have pierced hands and feet can see all bones they divide garments among them and cast lost for raiment but you yhvh not far away deliver soul from the sword life from the power the dog save from the mouth the lion and afflicted soul from the horns the wild bull would seem quite convincing and sure the early christian fathers who wrote this prophecy thought too unfortunately this prophecy has fatal flaw the words have pierced really not exist the psalm the correct hebrew translation yea dogs are round about company evildoers encircles like the lion they are hands and feet hebrew the phrase like the lion and very rare verb form which can mean pierced differ one phonetic character the word the hebrew text literally like the lion ari which makes sense the context and even further fits the animal imagery employed the psalm writer convenience that would urge christian change the word aru but add the needed yet artificial weight the prophecy this just what the christian translators have chosen while the correct translation does not eliminate the psalm from referring jesus its absence does not say much for the honesty the translators apart from the erroneous verse the psalm does not lend itself jesus easily verse speaks the sufferer being saved from sword rather than cross this naturally fits the psalm true subject king david side note now know that crucifixions did not pierce the hands the palms but rather the forearms this doesn say much favour the traditional thought resurrected jesus showing his disciples the scars his palms but then facts aren bound our religious beliefs matthew escapes culpability this time does not attempt draw many direct links between this psalm and his lord jesus but the psalm like many others was the minds all the gospel writers when they compiled the stories and interpretations jesus life and death how much these scriptures may have contributed what actually got written down question that has serious repercussions for christian theology easy see for those who are not faithful fundamentalists how some the events the new testament might have been enhanced scribes such the eager matthew but does less speculate than simply investigate scriptural matters and prophetic claims far this has not said good things for matthew the reference the piercing looks lot like jesus crucifixion john gospel recount written about years after the fact tells jesus execution but one the soldiers pierced his side with spear and out came blood and water these things took place that scripture fulfilled the will look him whom they pierced course this built passage taken blatantly out context prophet zechariah tells how much the nation israel will split off from jerusalem and judah and war with them and yhvh will give victory judah and that day will seek destroy the nations that come against jerusalem judah and will pour spirit compassion and supplication jerusalem that when they look him who they have pierced they will mourn and weep bitterly over him like you weep over firstborn child john attempt make prophecy perhaps weaker that matthew attempts matthew least usually excontexts more than just one passage john errors are grossly obvious and blatant here does not speak well for any the gospel writers helps show how the prophetic aspects their religion were founded reckoned with transgressors after his arrest jesus quickly executed for claiming the jewish kingship messiahship according one version the gospel tale jesus gets executed along with two thieves and with him they crucified two robbers one his right one his left and the scripture was fulfilled which says was reckoned with the transgressors here mark trying link jesus passage isaiah about the servant nation israel the passage not about the messiah for one reads the whole chapter isaiah and its surrounding chapters one sees that the servant nation the verses are also about what this servant has gone through the past not prediction what come any event the servant thought criminal this also happens fit the description jesus had the passage really been about the messiah still not all clear why executing jesus between two thieves would fulfill the prophecy isaiah jesus would more fittingly fulfill with his whole ministry was considered blasphemer and troublemaker all throughout his career locking onto single event rather poor way steal prophecy least this case see that mark could have had made better analogy with general comparisons mark goes tell how those who were crucified with jesus also reviled him this expected from couple robbers course his later recount luke decides change some things luke tells and one the criminals who was hanged with him railed aren you the messiah save yourself and this certainly fits with mark recount which tells how the people who crucified jesus said save yourself and that the robbers did the same but then luke goes but the other criminal rebuked the first saying don you fear since you are under the same sentence condemnation and indeed justly for are receiving the due reward for our deeds but this man has done nothing wrong and said jesus remember when you come your kingdom and jesus answered verily say you today you will with paradise now this little dialogue seems highly contrived stretches the imagination bit see this picture one ruffian rebuking his fellow criminal with such eloquent speech have rather strange picture criminal lamenting over the goodness his punishment and the justness his suffering such man apparently noble and principle doesn seem likely have been robber wonder the amount theatrics created luke course luke recount also disagrees with mark luke has only one criminal revile jesus not both easy enough discount the discrepancy because the account was made but those who wish believe all part the error free words not have this avenue open this yet another example writer trying take old testament passage and expand and reinterpret suit his theology this case the embroidery creates some embarrassing problems have seen the end the world now comes perhaps one the most extraordinary and embarrassing passages the new testament found all three the synoptic gospel stories and casts some the most unfavourable doubt the whole theory christianity jesus mentions the destruction the jewish temples and buildings and his disciples ask him about this and about the end the world which has been warning about the disciples tell when will this the temple destruction and what will the sign your coming and the close the age jesus take care that one leads you astray for many will come name saying the christ you will hear wars and rumours wars for this must take place but the end not yet for nation will rise against nation all this but the beginning the birthpangs they will deliver you put you death and false prophets will arise and lead many astray but who endures the end will saved this gospel will preached throughout the whole world testimony the nations and then the end will come when you see the desolation spoken the prophet daniel let those who are judea flee the mountains immediately after the tribulation those days the sun will darkened the stars will fall from heaven then will appear the sign the son man heaven and all the tribes the earth will mourn and see the son man coming and will send out his angels and gather his elect learn the lesson the fig tree soon its branch becomes tender and puts forth leaves you know that summer near also when you see all these things you will know that near the very gate truly say you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place but the day and hour one knows not the angels not the son but only the father therefore you also must ready for the son man coming hour you not expect from this clear that jesus thought the world would within the lifetimes least some his disciples tells them that although doesn know the exact day hour that will come and thus they must ready theologians have wet their pants panic find some way out this holy error but unfortunately jesus made himself explicit told his disciples that their generation would still around the end and that they particular should prepare for prepare swept away there have been some who resorted removing the inerrant nature the bible and said that the phrase this generation shall not pass away really means this race people will not pass away course the word for generation used many times refer exactly that the generation the disciples interesting notion that when god decided learn greek didn learn well enough make himself clear but quite obvious from the rest the dialogue that the disciples least some them are supposed live the end the world the charge mistranslation completely blown away looking the apostles responses becomes abundantly clear from rev peter john and rev that jesus meant exactly what said the end was very near for years christians have rationalised this chapter matthew ignored its meaning altogether for years they have waited for their executed leader come back hearing wars and rumours wars sure that coming soon surely must all must wait can you imagine how tired must sitting around there being holy waiting for just the right moment spring shortly after his crucifixion jesus nazareth joshua ben joseph died said that after three days three days and three nights three periods time three eternal seconds three whatever they can decide makes for less trouble was seen again resurrected glowing with divine radiance then the saviour decided wasn the best interests his new religion stick around and therefore disappeared from sight into heaven the story goes anyway has been seen there were many things attributed jesus when people got around writing the gospel stories down them jesus was the fulfiller all prophecy and scripture have seen though that this matter quite shaky but throughout church history christians have held fast faith simple belief what doctrinal objections could not solved with argumentation brute force faith and forgetfulness kept away from question question and investigate has never been the easiest way treat matters thus for years the prophecies cited the new testament have gone largely accepted things may well continue that way for some time pausing moment consider the way the doctrines christianity have been accepted and used properly improperly support wars and persecution suppose there one prophecy which christianity can securely keep hold jesus don think that have come bring peace earth haven come bring peace but rather sword
alt.atheism	some thoughts bissda saturn wwc edu dan lawrence bissell writes first want start right out and say that christian makes sense one have any you read tony campollo book liar lunatic the real thing might little off the title but writes the book anyway was part effort destroy christianity the process became christian himself assume you are posting encourage comments how much history has tony campello read not much seems the arguements uses summing the book about whether jesus was god not know many you don believe but listen different perspective for all have something gain listening what others have say good hear that there are few reasonable christians about only those christian scientists would take note australia there very strong movement bunch christian scientists who believe that every single event the bible exactly true and that there rational explanation for all that can justified using the laws physics for example there are few chaps who are trying prove that the age the universe years old and that the error conventional calculations the result the fact that the speed light has been rapidly decaying over the years and this has not been accounted for the book says that jesus was either liar was crazy modern day koresh was actually who said was course that never existed and the bible was story and was never intended become manifesto for billion people did tony follow that one some reasons why wouldn liar are follows who would die for lie wouldn people able tell was liar people gathered around him and kept doing many gathered from hearing seeing someone who was had been healed millions people have died for lie this point difficult substantiate since not well defined great many religious arguments work that way but consider the many aztec warriors who sacrificed themselves their gods the belief that this act would bring them victory the spanish invaders the list endless the aztecs lost btw call fool but believe did heal people that perfectly reasonable but not grounds for anyone become christian more the point does not add weight the claim that jesus was the real thing niether was lunatic would more than entire nation drawn someone who was crazy very doubtful fact rediculous for example anyone who drawn david koresh obviously fool logical people see this right away have you ever seen documentary about the rise nazi germany more the point did tony mention this one could hardly call werner heisenberg and his many colleagues fools illogical men their support hitler was based presume upon emotional issue rather than rational agreement with his principles obviously argument invalid tony thought that hitler was sane therefore since wasn liar lunatic must have been the real thing hmmm don think his arguments warrant the use therefore some other things note fulfilled loads prophecies the psalms isaiah and elsewhere hrs alone this his betrayal and crucifixion don have bible with this moment next time write will use this unfortunately what alot religious discussions have had with people result quoting the bible the only reasonable way think people can look the bible treat the stories some sort metaphorical representation the messages that the authors were trying present someone tries interpret parts the bible literally she will end all sorts shit tony argument would perfectly reasonable for people who believe the events described the bible took place but convince someone who thinks the bible total fiction that jesus real quoting the book totally pointless for example mathematics you cannot say equal because equal don think most people understand what christian that would possibly explain why there have many people being killed religious wars and why there are hundreds different versions all claiming correct certainly not what see lot churches rather think should way life and total sacrafice everything for god sake loved enough die and save should the same hey can god himself inspires turn our lives over him that tuff and most people don want real christian would something for the strong persevere but just like weight lifting guitar playing drums whatever takes time don rush one day christianity your whole life not going church once week helping poor people once while box everything into time units such work this time sports social life god above these boxes and should carried with into all these boxes that have created for ourselves think you posted this part alt religion you would get more flames than here have never really understood why the emotional sentiments stranger should interest other people someone famous said that there two evils life polititians and churchs one rules fear the living the other fear the dead pressed could probably find the exact quotation cheers charles
alt.atheism	bible quiz article apr ccsua ctstateu edu kellyb ccsua ctstateu edu wrote article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes only when the sun starts orbit the earth will accept the bible since when does atheism mean trashing other religions there must god inbreeding which you are his only son think that has rather witty sig file sums great deal atheistic thought imo one simple sentence atheism isn other religion steve mullins vos stratus com man empties his purse into his opinions stratus opinions head one can take from him benjamin franklin
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was article nrl navy mil khan itd itd nrl navy mil umar khan writes strongly suggest that you look book called the bible the quran and science maurice baucaille french surgeon not comprehensive but well researched imagine your library has can get for you through interlibrary loan shall try get hold when have time read course short baucaille began investigating the bible because pre ceived scientific inaccuracies and inconsistencies assumed that some the problems may have been caused poor translations gone days read what could find hebrew greek aramaic what found was that the problems didn away they got worse then decided see other religions had the same problems picked the holy qur french and found similar prob lems but not many applied the same logoic had with the bible learned read arabic the problems had found with the french version went away arabic was unable find wealth scientific statements the holy qur but what did find made sense with modern understanding investigated the traditions the hadith see what they had say about science they were filled with science problems after all they were contemporary narratives from time which had pour standards primitive world view his conclusion was that while was impressed that what little the holy qur had say about science was accurate was far more impressed that the holy qur did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced the traditions how would man century arabia have known what not include the holy qur assuming had authored short the writer writers quran decided stay away from science you not open your mouth then you don put you foot into your mouth either but then you say quran does not talk much about science then one can not make claims like bobby does that you have great science quran basically want say that none the religious texts are supposed scientific treatises just requesting the theists stop making such wild claims vinayak vinayak dutt mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	bible contradictions would like list bible contadictions from those you who dispite being free from christianity are well versed the bible
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article jts news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes vice ico tek com bobbe vice ico tek com robert beauchaine writes actually atheism based ignorance ignorance the existence any god don fall into the atheists don believe because their pride mistake how you know based ignorance couldn that wrong why would wrong fall into the trap that you mentioned wrong god free any time correct mistake that continues not while supposedly proclaiming his undying love for eternal soul speaks volumes for the trap you are not position tell that don believe god because not wish unless you can know motivations better than myself you should believe when say that earnestly searched for god for years and never found him bob beauchaine bobbe vice ico tek com they said that queens could stay they blew the bronx away and sank manhattan out sea
alt.atheism	silly question tianity article pww spac rice edu pww spacsun rice edu peter walker writes from pww spacsun rice edu peter walker subject silly question tianity date mon apr gmt article qaqi inngje gap caltech edu werdna cco caltech edu andrew tong wrote what
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil wrote strongly suggest that you look book called the bible the quran and science maurice baucaille french surgeon not comprehensive was unable find wealth scientific statements the holy qur but what did find made sense with modern understanding investigated the traditions the hadith see what they had say about science they were filled with science problems after all they were contemporary narratives from time which had pour standards primitive world view his conclusion was that while was impressed that what little the holy qur had say about science was accurate was far more impressed that the holy qur did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced the traditions how would man century arabia have known what not include the holy qur assuming had authored this book worth read get sensible view this issue the book two sections section contains fairly reasonable analysis the bible showing many inconsistencies between the bible and modern science well all know that surprises section analyses the koran version the old testament stories and seems the face present good case showing the koran consistent with modern science however was plain that this consistency was only possible the vague phraseology the koran take the flood for example the bible full detail forty days and forty nights pair every animal etc all know this nonsense the koran description the same event obscure make possible interpretation such big river flooded for few days and caused much damage yes contradiction but also not much fact the koran might consistent with modern science but being consistent due its vagueness compared with other books that time does not seem much achievement the book concludes saying something like the koran must have had divine inspiration because the time was written there were lot now ridiculous ideas about the universe and none them can found the koran arguing for the greatness book talking about what does not contain seems absurd the extreme the above course from memory may have missed some points leonard mail newnham bradford
alt.atheism	the bible and abortion james lippard lippard skyblu ccit arizona edu wrote exodus and men struggle with each other and strike woman with child that she has miscarriage yet there further injury shall surely fined the woman husband may demand him and shall pay the judges decide but there any further injury then you shall appoint penalty life for life eye for eye tooth for tooth hand for hand foot for foot burn for burn wound for wound bruise for bruise the most straightforward interpretation these verses that men fight strike woman and cause her miscarry the penalty only fine however the woman injured dies the lex talionis doctrine eye for eye applies this the jewish interpretation and supported jewish commentaries these verses this quite embarrassment for pro lifer christians there course alternate explanation the alternative interprets the word miscarriage mean premature birth the child born alive and further injury mean injury either the woman the fetus this not straightforward interpretation not far know supported any jewish commentaries and does not appeared supported any other part the bible what any historical reference have abortion this time did the ancient jew have appropriate reference understand abortion truly asking not making point veiled question there little understanding the medical procedure know abortion not surprising the bible makes little reference makes little reference nuclear power and contamination while your interpretation reasonable one see reason reject the other out hand the king jimmy translation says there further mischief this does not necessarily imply the woman know wife expecting and someone cause her spontaneously abort would feel that life was truly taken not simply process halted
alt.atheism	you will all hell you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote khomeini advocates the view that there was series twelve islamic leaders the twelve imams who are free error sin this makes him heretic wow you quicker point out heresy than the church the middle ages seriously though even the sheiks azhar don claim that the shi ites are heretics most the accusations and fabrications about shi ites come out saudi arabia from the wahabis for that matter you should read the original works the sunni imams imams the four madhabs the teacher least two them was imam jafar sadiq the sixth imam the shi ites although there plenty false propaganda floating around about the shi ites esp since the revolution there are also many good works shi ites which present the views and teachings their school why make assumptions and allegations like people this group have done about islam general about shi ites
alt.atheism	note bobby again article apr ultb isc rit edu snm ultb isc rit edu mozumder writes how about people who are not religous take the inner city there are many people that care little for religion lot crime lot murder this the other end lack religion that allows wrong happen lived tokyo for year and half and one the many reasons why intend back indefinitely the freedom one enjoys when one can walk anywhere and mean anywhere any time day night and not feel uneasy even one from ethnic minority was clues for bobby why bother tokyo city and inner tokyo inner city there negligible level violent crime and street murder will lead item national news iii the population almost universally atheistic next time for stroll around beirut night let you know how compares bobby mozumder cheers simon simon clippingdale simon dcs warwick department computer science tel university warwick fax coventry
alt.atheism	islam clearer view article bafc dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes from dbstu benedikt rosenau subject islam clearer view date tue apr gmt article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy writes sorry generally accepted that the rise the inquisition the reason why torture was introduced outside the romanic countries the end the middle ages other words the holy mother church which lead infallibly the holy ghost has spread the roman catholic church claims lead the infallable pope that why she the church has done many wicked things xtians and non believers alike the rationale that the pope speaking cathedra infallible based the claim above the dogma about the pope jesuitic origin and has not been been accepted before the mid the last century benedikt you right thanks for enlightening tammy
alt.atheism	cannanite genocide the bible excuse for ignorance but remember reading once that the biblical tribe known the philistines still exists they are the modern day palestinians anyone out there with more info please post tammy
alt.atheism	getting the point all readers have been asked several you post list the sda church fundamental beliefs warn you now long list however post sunday sabbath coming soon won reading saturday and don have time now would greatly appreciate you would keep touch with what going hope all you have reastful and relaxing weekend hope the best one far tammy
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote have precise about rejection god and his leaving islam one perfectly free muslim and doubt and question the existence god long one does not reject god sure that rushdie has now made his atheism clear front sufficient number proper witnesses the question regard the legal issue his status the time the crime was committed gregg would you consider that rushdie would now left alone and could have normal life other words does islam support the notion forgiving cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger wrote have stated parallel thread not anarchist nor islam anarchist therefore the should have control over itself however this does not change the fact that possible for citizens the residing within the violation islamic law this interesting notion and one scared case finnish citizen live usa and have conform the laws however the finnish government not actively checking out what doing this country other words checking out conform the finnish laws however islamic law seems curse that following you everywhere the world shades cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists article qlf ginn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider wrote which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess hehehe you say but this objective morality somehere tells you that this not the case and you don know all the rules such transcendental game systems cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	free moral agency and kent article healta saturn wwc edu healta saturn wwc edu tammy healy wrote the time ezekiel was written israel was apostacy again and not mistaken tyre was about make war israel like said the prince tyre was the human ruler tyre was wicked man calling satan the king tyre ezekiel was saying that satan the real ruler over tyre tammy this all explicitly stated the bible you assume that you know that ezekiel indirectly mentioned could have been another metaphor for instance ezekiel was mad his landlord talked about him when wrote about the prince tyre sorry but interpretation more mundane ezekiel wrote about the prince tyre when wrote about the prince tyre cheers kent sandvik newton apple com alink ksand private activities the net
alt.atheism	sci skeptic religion was why alt atheism article psuvm psu edu john johnson psuvm psu edu writes standard groups sci soc talk must conform stricter rules when being established and must show certain volume postings else they will cease exist these groups also reach more sites usenet than alt groups already posted opinion mathew suggestion which was that alt atheism the verge having too many garbage postings from fundies and elevating its status standard group and consequently the volume such postings could make unreadable tend agree came here when first started and watched grow from the roots talk religion misc seemed take while for enough atheists come forward get past the let trash xians and such now there stable core and frankly there feeling that this our group mainstream going lot more places and every fucking fundy loonie freshman will dumping find jeesus and warn that all going hell want see what get real alt fan brother jed and imagine that those imbecilic tirades will here all the time every other post being selfish find really learn lot here and the isn too bad the browns and the boobys are distraction but they are few enough that they even bring some the leavening needed offset them but greatly fear that mainstreaming would basically put the swamping level the conners the world regards dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie just has this part gotten beyond useful gregg not understand his posts giving any support the bounty rushdie life that correct end one point gregg using the concept legal way most westerners don accept his comments about islamic law think make great deal sense him and are even making little sense now person member group religion whatever they bind themselves follow the ways the group within the bounds what the group requires minimum the big bone contention here that picking that the west have secular governments that maintain more less level control and requirements outside the requirements optional groups think the majority reading this thread are tune note didn say agreement with the idea that you are finally responsible the secular government and within that the group groups person may have chosen with that mind not possible under secular law legally most people would define the term hold person particular group once they decide separate from only the secular authorities agree that there requirement some sort contractual etc there any secular enforcement allowed group group member past group member religion can and often does believe and require additional duties group member and can enforce the fulfillment those duties many ways ostracism common for example but the limit comes when the enforcement would impose unwanted and unaccepted onus person conflict with secular law this the difference theocracy the requirements the secular authorities are definition congruent with the religious authorities outside theocracy this not necessarily true religious requirements may coincide may not similiarly religious consequences may may not coincide with secular consequences any regards dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes deletions the fatwa was levelled the person rushdie any actions rushdie that feed the situation contribute the legitimization the ruling the book remains circulation not some independant will its own but the will the author and the publishers the fatwa against the person rushdie encompasses his actions well the crime was certainly crime progress many levels and was being played out and played the the full view the media not sure about this but think the charge shatim also applies rushdie and may encompassed under the umbrella the fasad ruling this grounded firmly islam you claim then you have just exposed islam the grounds for terrorism plain and simple whether you like not whether rushdie acted like total jerk not there acceptable civilized basis for putting someone fear their life for words simply does not matter whether his underlying motive was find the worst possible way could insult muslims and their beliefs got that you not threaten the life someone for words when you you quite simply admit the backruptcy your position you support threatening the life someone for words you are not yet civilized this exactly where and many the people know have depart from respecting the religions others when those beliefs allow and encourage interpretation the killing non physical opposition you anyone are more than privledged believe that someone whether rushdie bush hussien whover beyond the pale civilized society and you can condemn his her soul refuse allow any members your association interact with him her peacably demonstrate try convince others disassociate themselves from the miscreants whatever short physical force but once you physically threaten support physical threats you get much closer your earlier comparison rape with you the rapist who whines she asked for look how she was dressed blaming the victim when you are unable civilized doesn fly dew dewey henize sys net admin risc hardware pager
alt.atheism	nicknames article ufnyj voqit vpa andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu nanci ann miller writes jcopelan nyx edu the one and only writes welcome the official keeper the list nicknames that people are known alt atheism didn know had such list did you your have been awarded the nickname buckminster the next time you post article sign with your nickname like dave buckminster fuller thanks again jim humor means never having say you sorry copeland course the list has agree with the nickname laws laid down the gipu almost years ago you know the them that were written the iron tablets that melted once and had reinscribed since prophet the gipu decree that you should post the whole list nicknames for the frequent posters here the first rule humor never having say you sorry then the second rule must never having explain yourself few things are worse that joke explained spite this and because requests for post list nicknames must admit that such list exists was simply plot device along with being the keeper the list make the obvious play the last name fuller and advance the idea that such list should made assumed that the timers would recognize for what nevertheless how about list nicknames for alt atheism posters you think good one just post and see others like could start with those posters who annoy the most like bobby bill jim broke the second rule humor copeland god dead and the actor plays his part sting his words fear will find their way place your heart history without the voice reason every faith its own curse will teach without freedom from the past things can only get worse nothing
alt.atheism	death penalty gulf war article rusnews mantis mathew mathew mantis writes rush leland stanford edu voelkerding writes article apr seachg com chrisb seachg com chris blask writes add this the outrageous cost putting someone death special cell block years court costs extra guards and the benefits the death penalty entirely disappear that because your earlier claim that the one innocent death overrides the benefit all the others obviously tragic but argument for doing away with the death penalty went war and worried about accidentally killing civilians all the time because our determination who the enemy really imperfect then there way win the war yes fortunately have right thinking folks like your good self power and was therefore deemed acceptable slaughter tens even hundreds thousands iraqis order liberate oil hkuwait won the war hurrah hurrah the number civilian iraqi deaths were way over exaggerated and exploited for anti war emotionalism the liberal news media the facts are that less iraqis died the gulf war than did civilians any other war comparable size this century this was due mostly the short duration coupled with precise surgical bombing techniques which were technically possible only recently the idea that hundreds thousands iraqi citizens died ludicrous not even hundreds thousands iraqi soldiers died and they were the ones being targeted you think that the and its allies were specifically out kill and maim iraqi civilians either the smart bombs didn hit their targets and know they did they were targeting civilian targets which hardly condusive destroying iraq military potential the military mission planners are not fools they know they have hit military targets win war hitting civilian targets does nothing but unite the people against you not laudable goal one wants the people rise against their tyrant dictator some innocent people died yes maybe the unarmed civilians fleeing along that road didn need bombed bits perhaps that kid with half his face burned off and the little girl with the mangled legs weren entirely guilty but worth the death few innocents save the oil hlives the kuwaiti people isn after all the iraqis may not have had chance vote for saddam but they showed their acceptance his regime not assassinating him right all that surrendering and fleeing along open roads was just devious ploy were entirely within our rights bomb just case without finding out they were soldiers how about all the innocent people who died blanket bombing don hear you bemoaning them war never exact science but with smart bombs becoming more exact with smaller percentage civilian casualties sometimes mistakes are made targets are misidentified innocents die that war the way really but the alternative allow tyrannical dictators treat the earth like one big rummage sale grabbing everything they can get worse like patrick henry said some years ago know not what course others may take but for give liberty give death war always the price one must willing pay one wishes stay free the death penalty was conceived deterrent crime but the legal shenanigans that have been added automatic appeals lengthy court battles etc have relegated that purpose very small part what should hence the question instate the death penalty was meant and see that deters crime get rid entirely yes let reinstate the death penalty the way ought all that shit about fair trials and court appeals just gets the way justice let give the police the absolute right gun down the guilty and save ourselves the expense all those lawyers think the knock benefits too would never have had spend much money cleaning after riots and holding showcase trials the cops had been allowed their job properly quick bullet through the head rodney king and another for the cameraman and everyone would have been saved great deal unnecessary paperwork and expense after all the police decide man guilty that ought enough the fact that the death penalty has been shown not have any deterrent effect over imprisonment well that entirely irrelevant mathew mathew your sarcasm noted but you are completely off base here you come off sounding like complete peace nik idiot although feel sure that was not your intent the iraqi war was wrong sure that appeasement would have worked better than war just like did guess shouldn have fought either just think all those innocent german civilians killed dresden and hamburg how about all the poor french who died the crossfire because invaded the continent should have just let hitler take over europe and you speaking german instead english right now tyrants like hussein have stopped his kind don understand diplomacy they only understand the point gun only regret that bush wimped out and didn have the military roll into baghdad now hussein still power and the iraqi people sacrifice not mention the americans who died was for naught liberating kuwait was good thing but wiping hussein off the map would been better and for poor poor rodney king did you ever stop and think why the jury the first trial brought back verdict not guilty those who have been foaming the mouth for the blood those policemen certainly have looked further than the video tape but the jury looked all the evidence evidence which you and have not seen when one makes judgment without the benefit trial where evidence can presented both sides one has simply lowered himself the level vigilante justice state mind which your sarcasm above seemingly spoke against but instead tends support the case against the policemen law this country intended protect the rights the accused whether they criminals cops one not found guilty there reasonable doubt one guilt and only the jury position assess the evidence and render verdict anyone else simply succumbing verbal vigilantism regards jim
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes article apr andrews nrp andrews norman paterson writes don think you right about germany daughter was born there and don think she has any german rights vote live there beyond the rights all citizens she british citizen virtue her parentage but that not full citizenship for example don think her children could british virtue her the same way fairly sure that she could obtain citizenship making application for might require immigration germany but almost certain that once applied for citizenship inevitable this case nope germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws the ethnic germans who have lived russia for over years automatically become citizens they move germany but the turks who are now their third generation germany can not very good example show citizenship without descent karl lastly come china the hope all you touch and all you see fulfilling lifelong ambition all your life will ever dropping acid the great wall duke pink floyd lie still lie even billion people believe
alt.atheism	you will all hell fri apr edt jsn psuvm psu edu said you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation hmm got mst lunch box travel scrabble and couple kegs bass ale all set let everybody mccreary edm twisto compaq com were not for laughter there would tao
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes assume that you say here religious law for the followers the religion that begs the question why the religion has the right define who follower even when the offenders disagree say religious law applies those who are categorized belonging the religion when event being judged applies this prevents situations which someone member religion who when charged claims that she was not member the religion they are free nothing had happened gregg
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article dbstu dbstu benedikt rosenau writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes brutal system filtered through leniency not lenient huh how you rate public floggings floggings all chopping off the hands heads other body parts what about stoning don have problem with floggings particularly when the offenders have been given chance change their behavior before floggings are given have problem with maiming general whatever means opinion one who has not maimed another should maimed the case rape the victim maimed physically and emotionally wouldn have problem with maiming rapists obviously wouldn have problem with maiming murderers either may ask you had the same opinion before you became muslim sure yes did you see don think that rape and murder should dealt with lightly you being interested leniency for leniency sake apparently think that people should simply told the did bad thing and what about the simple chance misjudgements misjudgments should avoided much possible suspect that pretty unlikely that given requirement repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely orient not place having single character your ignorance exposes itself nicely here read carefully have not said all the orient shows primitive machism well then why not use more specific words than orient probably because your mind there need all the same because contains sufficient information while more detail possible not necessary and europe shows civilized bullshit this bullshit time put out shut you substantiated nothing and are blabbering like islamists who talk about the west the great satan you both guilty stupidities just love compare such lines the common plea your fellow believers not call each others names this case substantiate the quran allows that one beats one wife into submission really care give chapter and verse could discuss primitive machism refers that have misspelt that before fault again not all the orient follows the qur you have better than that sorry you haven put out enough islam expresses extramarital sex extramarital sex subset sex suppressedin islam that marial sexis allowed encouraged islam many branches christianity too misses the point read the part about the urge for sex again religions that run around telling people how have sex are not piece cake for two reasons suppressing strong urge needs strong measures and not their business anyway believe what you wish thought you were trying make argument all reading are opinions argument that you doubt the validity the premises does not change you want criticize time for you put shut this argument for why you don like religions that suppress sex such irrelevant argument you like generalize objective statement then fine response then you have given reason for your statement that sex not the business religion one your arguments the urge for sex adolescents not strong that any overly strong measures are required suppress the urge have sex strong adult then that adult can make commensurate effort find marriage partner gregg
alt.atheism	free moral agency article kmr cwru edu kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes article apr princeton edu qpliu phoenix princeton edu liu writes while faith itself gift obedience what makes faith possible what makes obeying different from believing still wondering how that obedient when have idea whom obedient all written the wholly babble the users guide invisible pink unicorns granted faith invisible pink unicorns you must read the babble and obey what written obey what written the babble you must believe that doing the way granted faith invisible pink unicorns believe that obeying what written the babble leads believing invisible pink unicorns you must essentially believe invisible pink unicorns this bit circular reasoning begs the question what makes obeying different from believing qpliu princeton edu standard opinion opinions are delta correlated
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes what about the twelve imams who considered incapable error sin khomeini supports this view the twelve imans this heresy for the very reasons gave above would happy discuss the issue the imams with you although preference would move the discussion another newsgroup feel philosophy religion group would more appropriate think many reading this group would also benefit knowing how deviant the view articulated above which may not the true view khomeini from the basic principles islam that the non muslim readers this group will see how far from the simple basics islam such views are the face them and they are not contradiction with the basics islam how subtle such issues are and how seems sects exist islam while they are explicitly proscribed the qur the topic deeply embedded the world view islam and the esoteric teachings the prophet heresy does not enter into all except for those who see islam only exoteric religion that only nominally all concerned with the metaphysical substance man being and nature opinion considering any human being having substance metaphysical fundamentally different from that any other human being heretical notion and one proscribed islam from your posts you seem fairly well versed sunni thought you should seek know shi ite thought through knowledgeable shi ite authors well least that much respect due before the charge heresy levelled absolutely would interested discussing this privately and interested hearing how one might try make the concept error free and sinless human beings philosophically consistent with the teachings the qur however prima facie such attemptsa are highly susceptible degenerating into monkery explicitly proscribed the qur salaam laikum alaikum wassalam gregg
alt.atheism	koresh god date fri apr from mathew mathew mantis the latest news seems that koresh will give himself once finished writing sequel the bible mathew writing the seven seals something along those lines already written the first the seven which was around pages and has handed over assistant for proofreading would expect any decent messiah have built spellchecker maybe koresh will come with one
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was date fri apr gmt from umar khan khan itd itd nrl navy mil his conclusion was that while was impressed that what little the holy qur had say about science was accurate was far more impressed that the holy qur did not contain the same rampant errors evidenced the traditions how would man century arabia have known what not include the holy qur assuming had authored well looks like the folks soc religion islam have loosened bit and are discussing this topic well the banking interest topic few books the subject have also been mentioned addition the one you mentioned these may hard find but think may take stab out curiosity know the one film saw this subject was pretty weak and the only two quotes have seen which were used show science the koran which posted here were also pretty vague suspect that these books will extrapolate awful lot the quotes they have least one poster the islam channel seems have some misgivings about the practice using the koran decide what good science wonder islam has ever come with the equivalent the christians creation science any topic would interesting find history scientific interpretations the koran see anyone used the koran support earlier science which has since been discarded all too easy look science exists today and then interpret passages match those findings people similar things with the sayings nostradamus all the time anyway rather unique claim islam and may worth checking
alt.atheism	keith relativist levels unisa edu the desert brat writes keith you start wafffling about how different for human maul someone thrown into cage speak you better start posting tome decent evidence retract your think there absolute morality blurb few weeks ago did claim that there was absolute morality just objective one keith
alt.atheism	political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes perhaps the chimps that failed evolve cooperative behaviour died out and are left with the ones that did evolve such behaviour entirely chance that the entire point are you going proclaim natural morality every time organism evolves cooperative behaviour yes natural morality morality that developed naturally what about the natural morality bee dance huh keith
alt.atheism	objective morality was political atheists sandvik newton apple com kent sandvik writes which type morality are you talking about natural sense not all immoral harm another species long doesn adversely affect your own guess hehehe you say but this objective morality somehere tells you that this not the case and you don know all the rules such transcendental game systems which objective system are you talking about what its goal again which brand morality are you talking about keith
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article apr bnr rashid writes article apr zeus calpoly edu jmunch hertz elee calpoly edu john munch wrote article apr bnr rashid writes not sure about this but think the charge shatim also applies rushdie and may encompassed under the umbrella the fasad ruling please define the words shatim and fasad before you use them again apologies shatim believe refers slandering spreading slander and lies about the prophets any the prophets basically any prophet ever dealt with has either been busy hawking stolen merchandise selling swampland house lots florida then you hear all the stories sexual abuse prophets and how the families victims were paid keep quiet about kind willful caulmny and cursing that indicated the word this the best explanation can come with off the top head try and look more technical definition when have the time never mind that but let tell you about this chevelle bought from this dude you guessed prophet named mohammed got the car for like two days when the tranny kicks then manny mechanic tells was loaded with sawdust take guess whether mohammed was anywhere found don think fasad little more difficult describe again this not technical definition try and get that later literally mohammed the word fasad means mischief but mischief the order magnitude indicated the word corruption when someone who doing something wrong begin with seeks escalate the hurt yeah you mohammed disorder concern harm etc the mischief initially caused their actions the wrong specifically related attacks against god and his messenger and mischief corruption disorder etc you slimy mass pond scum resulting from that the attack need not physical attack and there are different levels penalty proscribed depending the extent the mischief and whether the person persons sought make hay the situation the severest punishment death yeah right you the one should watching your butt you and your buddy allah the stereo sold croaked after two days your ass grass jim yeah that right jim
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists kmr cwru edu keith ryan writes they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution they picked words whose meanings implied the intent have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient only need ask the question what did the founding fathers consider cruel and unusual punishment hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would very painful both physically and psychologicall imagine well most hangings are very quick and imagine painless firing squad note not clean way die back those days etc all would considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution the founding fathers and hangings and firing squads are allowed today too and these things were not considered cruel then surely medical execution painless would not either keith
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes they spent quite bit time the wording the constitution realise that this widely held belief america but fact the clause cruel and unusual punishments like lot the rest was lifted from the english bill rights just because the wording elsewhere does not mean they didn spend much time the wording have already looked the dictionary define the word isn this sufficient since the dictionary said that lack mercy intent inflict injury grief counted cruel sure people can described cruel this way but punishments cannot keith
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes say religious law applies those who are categorized belonging the religion when event being judged applies this who does the categorizing cheat hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	cruel was political atheists article qnpa inn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes hanging hanging there slowing being strangled would very painful both physically and psychologicall imagine well most hangings are very quick and imagine painless think this misnomer firing squad note not clean way die back those days etc all would considered cruel under your definition all were allowed under the constitution the founding fathers and hangings and firing squads are allowed today too and these things were not considered cruel then surely medical execution painless would not either but this just shows then that painful execution not considered cruel and unusual punishment this shows that cruel used the constitution does not refer whether not the punishment causes physical pain rather must different meaning cheat hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	the nonexistance atheists article kutluk ccl umist kutluk ccl umist kutluk ozguven writes atheists are not mentioned the quran because from quranic point view and minute reasoning one can see that there such thing guess that why scientists probably aren mentioned either stock brokers television repairmen precious know just how deep the brainwashing from childhood that takes progress religion cleans away very substantial part the reasoning neurons but don mind don exist jim halat
alt.atheism	anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes deletion sure yes did you see don think that rape and murder should dealt with lightly you being interested leniency for leniency sake apparently think that people should simply told the did bad thing straw man and you brought leniency and what about the simple chance misjudgements misjudgments should avoided much possible suspect that pretty unlikely that given requirement repeated offenses that misjudgments are very likely assuming that misjudgements are not correlated deletion just love compare such lines the common plea your fellow believers not call each others names this case substantiate the quran allows that one beats one wife into submission really care give chapter and verse could discuss has been discussed here chapter and verse were cited assume that you weren looking then let more exact you think not the quran and what would your consequences when was shown primitive machism refers that have misspelt that before fault again not all the orient follows the qur you have better than that have not claimed that sufficient for the argument when there are lot male dominated societies that qualify machistic are you going say that the situation women better sufficeint areas the orient deletion this argument for why you don like religions that suppress sex such irrelevant argument you like generalize objective statement then fine response then you have given reason for your statement that sex not the business religion one your arguments the urge for sex adolescents not strong that any overly strong measures are required suppress the urge have sex strong adult then that adult can make commensurate effort find marriage partner you apparently have trouble reading things you don like the point was having sex the way one wishes being strong desire marriage red herring tell about homosexuals for one you simply ignore everything that doesn fit into the world you would like have and for the situation adolescents one has probably keep your combination leniency and maiming mind whe you say that does not take overly strong measures suppress the urge for sex adolescents benedikt
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article apr eagle wesleyan edu kmagnacca eagle wesleyan edu writes deletion nope germany has extremely restrictive citizenship laws the ethnic germans who have lived russia for over years automatically become citizens they move germany but the turks who are now their third generation germany can that wrong they can benedikt
alt.atheism	little too satanic jon livesey writes why read the papers that the qumram texts had different versions some texts did misunderstand reading newspapers learn about this kind stuff not the best idea the world newspaper reporters are notoriously ignorant the subject religion and are prone exaggeration the interests having real story that bigger headline let back this point have the masoretic text the various targums translations commentaries aramaic etc and the septuagint the ancient greek translation the masoretic text the standard jewish text and essentially does not vary some places has obvious corruptions all which are copied faithfully from copy copy these passages the past were interpreted reference the targums and the septuagint now the septuagint differs from the masoretic text two particulars first includes additional texts and second some passages there are variant readings from the masoretic text addition fixing predating the various corrupted passages must emphasized that the best knowledge these variations are only signifcant bible scholars and have little theological import the dead sea scroll materials add this ancient copy almost all isaiah and fragments various sizes almost all other books there also abundance other material but far know there sign there any hebrew antecdent the apocrypha the extra texts the septuagint far analysis has proceeded there are also variations between the dss texts and the masoretic versions these tend reflect the septuagint where the latter isn obviously error again though the differences thus far are not significant theologically there this big expectation that there are great theological surprises lurking the material but far this hasn happened the dss are important because there almost textual tradition the unlike for the wingate the peace god peace but strife closed the sod mangoe umd edu yet brothers pray for but one thing tove mangoe the marv lous peace god
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality frank uucp frank dwyer writes ray netcom com ray fischer writes frank uucp frank dwyer writes plus questions for you why subjectivists relativists nihilists get het about the idea that relativism better than objectivism the degree that relativism more accurate decription the truth than objectivism provides more power and ability control events think you lose the right talk about the truth once you say values are relative accuracy value judgement too happens agree with the substance what you say below but clear that least some values are objective truth better than falsehood peace better than war education better than ignorance know these things know anything while agree that these are generally held good things question whether they come very close being objective values especially considering that one time another each has been viewed being undesirable doubt you could even come with anything that could said universally good bad and when referred the truth was using the term hypothetically realizing full well that there may not even such thing assuming for the moment that morals are relative then two relativists can recognize that neither has lock the absolute truth and they can proceed negotiate workable compromise that produces the desired results they cannot because they acknowledge front that the desired results not exist that after all the meaning compromise plus some problems the relativists have values common compromise impossible what happens then who anyone right what happens one relativist has value never compromise value plant bombs crowded shopping areas after all morals are relative these values cannot meaningfully said incorrect true enough but they cannot said anything more than personal morals one thing notably lacking most extremists any sense personal accountability the justification for any socially unacceptable behaviour invariably some higher authority aka absolute moral truth assuming that there absolute morality two disagreeing objectivists can either both wrong just one them right there room for compromise once you beleive absolute morals you must accept that you are amoral that everyone who disagrees with you amoral untrue one can accept that one does not know the whole truth part the objective truth about morality may well that flexibility better than rigidity compromise better than believing you have lock morals etc the same way can believe objective reality without claiming know the mechanism for quantum collapse who shot jfk objective truth that says one cannot know the objective truth interesting notion certainly one can have one morals belief that compromise good but compromise the absolute truth not something most people very successfully suppose one could hold compromise being absolute moral but then what happens when someone else insists compromise how you compromise compromising given choice between peaceful compromise endless contention say that compromise seems better and would agree but bloody pointless speak merely matter taste your liking for peace any better founded than someone else liking for ice cream looking for way say yes that question and relativism isn almost invariably when considering the relative value one thing over another morals consequences people only consider those aspects which justify desired action belief justifying commitement peace might argue that lets people live long healthy and peaceful lives while that much may well true incomplete ignoring the benefits war killing off the most agressive member society trimming down the population stimulating production the equation always more complex than presented characterize relative morals merely following one own conscience desires unduly simplify ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
alt.atheism	islamic banks was slavery article monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes apr bmw mayo edu vdp mayo edu vinayak dutt writes instead calling interest deposits you call returns investements and instead calling loans you call investing business that other words floating stocks your company interest different from return investment for one thing return investment has greater risk and not set return the amount money you make can down you might even lose money the difference the risk loss shared the investor rather than practically all the risk being taken the borrower when the borrower borrows from the bank but different from stocks you wish call investor stocks banker well then its your choice relabeling does not make interest free not just relabeling have explained above relabeling also its still not interest free the investor still taking some money dividend his investment ofcourse the investor islamic banking its your called bank taking more risk than the usual bank but its still getting some thing back return also have you heard junk bonds vinayak vinayak dutt mail vdp mayo edu standard disclaimers apply
alt.atheism	don need stinking subjects article avinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes you going claim something then you prove think cold fusion well provided examples show that the trend was general and you others have provided some counterexamples mostly ones surrounding mating practices etc don think that these few cases are enough disprove the general trend natural morality and again the mating practices need reexamined what you saying that your mind made and you just explain away any differences being statistically insignificant try find immoral non mating related activities you excluding mating related activities from your natural morality but mating practices are special case have think about some more you just explain away any inconsistancies your theory being special case yes think that the natural system can objectively deduced with the goal species propogation mind but not equating the two you think that objective system isn necessarily the natural one are you are you not the man who wrote natural moral system the objective moral system that most animals follow indeed but while the natural system objective all objective systems are not the natural one the terms can not equated the natural system subset the objective ones you just equated them read your own words now since homosexuality has been observed most animals including birds and dolphins are you going claim that most animals have the capacity being immoral don claim that homosexuality immoral isn harmful although isn helpful either the mating process and when you say that homosexuality observed the animal kingdom don you mean bisexuality study release found that female seagulls are lesbians well saying that these goals are not inherent that why they must postulates because there not really way determine them otherwise although could argued that they arise from the natural goal but they are somewhat removed postulate assume posit that right the goals themselves aren inherent can create theory with postulate that the sun revolves around the earth that the moon actually made green cheese and the stars are the portions angels that intrudes into three dimensional reality you could but such would contradict observations now apply this last sentence your your theory notice how your are contridicting observations can build mathematical proof with postulate that given the length one side triangle the length second side the triangle and the degree angle connecting them can determine the length the third side but postulate something that generally always found true don think your postulate would valid you don know much math you the ability use sas determine the length the third side the triangle fundemental geometry guess which one people are going more receptive order assume something about your system you have able show that your postulates work yes and think the goals survival and happiness work you think they don are they not good goals goals postulates again one the goals this objective natural morality system you are proposing survival the species then homosexuality immoral kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality qkq horus mchp sni frank uucp writes attempting define objective morality take wild guess and say freedom objectively valuable base this the assumption that everyone the world were deprived utterly their freedom that their every act was contrary their volition almost all would want complain long you keep that almost there freedom will mostly valuable thing most people that think you really saying real big lot people agree freedom subjectively valuable them that good and quite nice starting point for moral system but not universal and thus not objective therefore take that assert believe that freedom not very valuable when almost everyone can see that every bit absurd assert not raining rainy day isn sahara disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	political atheists article qinn gap caltech edu keith cco caltech edu keith allan schneider writes kcochran nyx edu keith justified and ancient cochran writes schneider natural morality may specifically thought code ethics that certain species has developed order survive wait are talking about ethics morals here the distinction important yes see this countless times the animal kingdom and such natural system the basis for our own system well huh well our moral system seems mimic the natural one number ways please describe these number ways detail then explain the any contradictions that may arise order for humans thrive seem need live groups here your problem seem need what wrong with the highlighted word don know what wrong possible for humans survive for long time the wild yes possible but difficult humans are social animal and that cause our success define difficult and order for group function effectively needs some sort ethical code this statement not correct isn why don you think explain the laws america stating that you have drive the right hand side the road and pointing out that species conduct serves propogate itself not trying give you your tautology but trying show that such are examples moral systems with goal propogation the species goal natural system morality anybody who lives monagamous relationship not moral after all order ensure propogation the species every man should impregnate many women possible noted earlier lack mating such abstinence homosexuality isn really destructive the system worst neutral every member the species was homosexual this wouldn destructive the survival the species for that matter herds horses only the dominate stallion mates when dies killed whatever the new dominate stallion the only one who mates these seems case your natural system morality trying shoot itself the figurative foot again the mating practices are something reexamined the whole theory needs reexamined kcochran nyx edu tsakc thoughts posts ideas responsibility beer pizza
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article ursa bear com halat pooh bears jim halat writes article qjd nlv horus mchp sni frank uucp frank dwyer writes firstly science has its basis values not the other way round you better explain what objective atoms are and how get them from subjective values before any further atoms are not objective they aren even real what scientists call atom nothing more than mathematical model that describes certain physical observable properties our surroundings all which subjective rest deleted you were liberal arts major weren tcha guess you never saw that photo the smallest logo the world ibm made with noble gas atoms krypton xenon forget the specifics atoms trees electrons are all independently observable and verifiable morals aren see the difference tep men who love brown tend warm and deep sensitive the needs and desires their partners sex hour day thing snuggling the fire walking the rain catching snowflakes their tongue real turn lover brown thanx becka
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists jbrown batman bmd trw com writes apr batman bmd trw com responding dave first with official nickname fuller the death penalty deterrent dave the person executed will never commit crime again guaranteed that means that effective anti recidivism measure does not say that deters individual from committing capital crime the first place the true question whether the threat death likely actually stop one from murdering commiting treason are there any other capital crimes anywhere the usa that there were death penalty would its introduction deter would criminal from committing her his crime doubt this only the first step even were strong deterrent short being complete deterrent would reject for what about the case the innocent executed and even could eliminate this possibility would reject the death penalty immoral this makes something radical the issue although think there are many opponents captial punishment who agree with but who find the innocent executed the strongest argument make would magically placed charge facilitate state aided suicide for criminals who have life sentences this could replacement for capital punishment those who don want live the rest their lives jail would always have this option scott sauyet ssauyet eagle wesleyan edu
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu writes some society came with good reason for why rape and murder are would consistent with position and hold that was still wrong basis morality not societal norms current legalities basis surprise surprise both the bible and inherent moral abhorrences but what exactly inherently abhorrent and why what you saying effect think some things are repulsive and know whole bunch other people who agree with they should deemed absolutely immoral now and forever period which and itself nice enough some extent agree with you but not agree that things are inherently absolutely immoral they are labeled immoral each for its own good reason and the reason can even theoretically change then can the label yes that vague and the only way know off the top head defend say that all humans are similarly made yes that falls into the trap creation doesn humans are some extent similar because all belong the same species that that species has evolved another story altogether certain extent evolution can even lend credence moral absolutism flavour arguments are that better exhibit trust goodness love respect courage and honesty any society rather than deceipt hatred disrespect cowardness and dishonesty you saying morality what keep society alive and kicking think point but societies are not all alike and neither are their moralities haven been everywhere and seen everyone but according thesis don have since hold that were all created similarly similar identical that makes unfalsifiable thesis just say and both work out what can and punt fellow theists falsifiable through finding someoe who was created different whatever that might the real world disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	yet more rushdie islamic law article qla afp fido asd sgi com livesey solntze wpd sgi com jon livesey writes article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes hope islamic bank something other than bcci which ripped off many small depositors among the muslim community the and elsewhere grow childish propagandist gregg really sorry having pointed out that practice things aren quite the wonderful utopia you folks seem claim them upsets you you have done such thing bbci was example islamically owned and operated bank what will someone bet they weren real islamic owners and operators islamic bank bank which operates according the rules islam regard banking this done explicitly the bank this was not the case with bcci and why did these naive depositors put their life savings into bcci rather than the nasty interest motivated western bank down the street this crap bcci was motivated the same motives other international banks with perhaps emphasis dealing with outlaws and the intelligence services various governments please don try con into thinking that will all work out right next time back childish propaganda again you really ought get life rather than wasting bandwith such empty typing there are thousands islamic banks operating throughout the world which one ever hears about you want talk about corrupted banks can talk about all the people who been robbed american banks gregg
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie article qlb oinn shelley washington edu jimh carson washington edu james hogan writes come senses and accept the all knowing wisdom and power the quran and allah not only that but allah himself drops congratulate wise choice allah rolls few bones and get down then allah gets out the crisco bends over and invites take spin around the block wow realize that maybe allah looking for more commitment than ready for say man got some programming gotta call you thinking over renounce islam what loyalty jim seems you been reading little too much russell hoban lately hemingway said imitators always imitate the bad aspects writing hoban would doubt say the same here gregg
alt.atheism	after years can say that christian morality article news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes qlapk morrow stanford edu salem pangea stanford edu bruce salem writes article jrde news cso uiuc edu cobb alexia lis uiuc edu mike cobb writes theory creationism theistic view the theory creationism there are many others stated genesis the beginning god created the heavens and the earth wonderful now try alittle imaginative thinking huh imaginative thinking what did that have with what said would have been better said the world has existed forever and never was created and has endless supply energy and there was spontaneous generation life from non life would that make all wise and knowing and imaginative but least would theory warren kurt vonroeschlaub iastate edu iowa state university math department carver hall ames
alt.atheism	you will all hell jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes who cares what the fellow wrote anyway mean came from psuvm how could possibly have been any importance disperse smileys until longer offended disclaimer great young and insane
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes well one was not allowed leave the domain authority one free leave islam one regards islamic law curse one should consider leaving islam the only way out seems death cheat hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	death penalty was political atheists article apr daffy wisc edu mccullou snake wisc edu mark mccullough writes you exagerate the point libel gave only unpopular reasons deliberately you think that should have let iraq absorb kuwait could make the tired old poland comparison but think you heard but the principle aplies never play chamberlain and roll over another country being invaded that only invites further invasions perhaps ought not have supported known genocidist provided him with weapon systems tactical support technology etc made suddam hussein what did bush call him yes ally and freind cheat hillary too john laws local gop reprehensitive extolling traditional family values
alt.atheism	you will all hell article tan psuvm psu edu andrew newell tan psuvm psu edu writes article jsn psuvm psu edu jsn psuvm psu edu writes you blashephemers you will all hell for not believing god prepared for your eternal damnation readers the group how convenient that doesn have real name let start the letters the sysadmin shall his real name jeremy scott noonan vmoper psuvm psu edu should have least some authority least know who email postmast psuvm bitnet respectively rfowles wverity the sys admins the same node are probably better idea than the operator benedikt
alt.atheism	the inimitable rushdie anecdote about islam article edu jaeger buphy edu gregg jaeger writes deletion certainly central aspect islam show mercy and give those who done wrong even presuming rushdie did violate islamic law and committed crimes this was the basis for posts regarding leniency which seemed not have penetrated benedikt skull you have demanded harsh punishments several crimes repeating offenders have slipped only justification harsh punishment all typically religious doublespeak whenever you have contradictory statements you choose the possibility that suits your current argument disgusting that someone with ideas that would make theodore kkkaldis feel cozy can along under the protection religion gregg tell would you kill idolaters benedikt
alt.atheism	islam and scientific predictions was genocide caused atheism article apr monu monash edu darice yoyo monash edu fred rice writes and god almighty who created the night and the day and the sun and the earth all the celetial bodies swim along each its rounded course holy quran hmm this agrees with the ptolemic system the earth the centre with the planets orbitting round copernicus and gallileo were wrong after all you haven read very carefully you look again you will see that doesn say anything about what circling what anyway they are not moving circles nor there any evidence that everything goes around rounded course general sense wishy washy statements are not scientific benedikt
alt.atheism	wholly babble was free moral agency article psilink com robert knowles psilink com writes deletion course there also the book the subgenius and that whole collection writings well does someone know ftp site with benedikt
comp.graphics	call for presentations navy sciviz seminar call for presentations navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar tuesday june carderock division naval surface warfare center formerly the david taylor research center bethesda maryland sponsor ness navy engineering software system sponsoring one day navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar the purpose the seminar present and exchange information for navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs research developments and applications presentations presentations are solicited all aspects navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality all current work works progress and proposed work navy organizations will considered four types presentations are available regular presentation minutes length short presentation minutes length video presentation stand alone videotape author need not attend the seminar scientific visualization virtual reality demonstration byoh accepted presentations will not published any proceedings however viewgraphs and other materials will reproduced for seminar attendees abstracts authors should submit one page abstract and videotape robert lipman naval surface warfare center carderock division code bethesda maryland voice fax mail lipman oasys navy mil authors should include the type presentation their affiliations addresses telephone and fax numbers and addresses multi author papers should designate one point contact deadlines the abstact submission deadline april notification acceptance will sent may materials for reproduction must received june for further information contact robert lipman the above address please distribute widely possible thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys navy mil david taylor model basin cdnswc lip ocean navy mil computational signatures and voicenet structures group code factsnet bethesda maryland phishnet stockings long legs the sixth sick shiek sixth sheep sick
comp.graphics	graphical representation vector valued functions gnuplot etc make easy plot real valued functions variables but want plot functions whose values are vectors have been doing this plotting arrays arrows complete with arrowheads but before going further thought would ask whether someone has already done the work any pointers thanx advance tom weston usenet weston ucssun sdsu edu department philosophy office san diego state univ home san diego
comp.graphics	dmorph article apr usl edu jna ucs usl edu armstrong jay writes can someone please tell where can ftp dta dmorph dmorf dave morph think what means and dtax dave tga assembler are available the msdos uploads directory the wuarchive they are arjed and bundled with their respective xmemory versions dmorfx exe and dtax exe you can also find version aaplay exe there with which you can view files you create with dta exe dtax exe downloaded the whole bunch last week and have been morphing away the afternoons since the programmes are all bit buggy and definitely not ready spread the masses but they are very well written the interface frustrating first but gets easy once you figure out the tricks have noticed that dmorfx will crash horribly you try morph without using the splines option not sure why since don have the source think was written for anyone else comes with any other hints getting the thing work right tell took several hours the first time just figure out that just used the durned splines then would work jna jna usl edu ryan rap cis ufl edu
comp.graphics	voice input vendor information needed hello looking add voice input capability user interface developing unix workstation would greatly appreciate information anyone would care offer about voice input systems that are easily accessible from the unix environment the names adresses applicable vendors well any experiences you have had with specific systems would very helpful please respond via email will post summary there sufficient interest thanks ken have found several impressive systems for ibm but would like avoid the hassle purchasing and maintaining separate all possible ken hinckley kph virginia edu university virginia neurosurgical visualization laboratory
comp.graphics	where can find sipp recently got file describing library rendering routines called sipp simple polygon processor could anyone tell where can ftp the source code and which the newest version around also never used renderman was wondering renderman like sipp library rendering routines which one uses make program that creates the image thanks joe tham joe tham joth ersys edmonton
comp.graphics	million thousand colors dtek chalmers henrik harmsen writes bits per gives horrible machbanding visible almost any picture bits per colors gives visible machbanding color gradient picture has almost machbanding this color resolution see some small machbanding the smooth color gradient picture but all all there are situiations where you get visible mach banding even bit card you create very smooth color gradient dark green white yellow something and turn the contrast the monitor you will probably see some mach banding while don mean damn henrik attempt helpful here using common misconception that should corrected mach banding will occur for any image not the color quantization you see when you don have enough bits the human eye response transitions edges between intensities the result that colors near the transistion look brighter the brighter side and darker the darker side andre andre yew andrey cco caltech edu
comp.graphics	translating tttddd dxf swiv mac user when comes graphics that what own software and hardware for and recently come across large number tttddd format modeling databases there any software mac unix for translating those something could use like dxf please reply via email thanx eric oehler oehler picard wisc edu
comp.graphics	help renderman language wanted hello everybody you are using pixar renderman scene description language for creating worlds please help using renderman library next but there documentation about nextstep version renderman available can create very complicated scenes and render them using surface shaders but can not bring them life applying shadows and reflections far understand have define environmental and shadows maps produce reflections and shadows but not know how use them any advises simple rib examples will appreciated thanks advance alex kolesov moscow russia talus imaging communications corporation mail alex talus msk next mail accepted
comp.graphics	more gray levels out the screen article tut lehtori tut kouhia juhana writes article apr kpc com hollasch kpc com steve hollasch writes think you proposal would work get extra one maybe two extra bits color resolution however you had display that chould only zero full intensity for each primary don think you get great equivalent bit photographs have not suggested wrote about problems and the problem were clearly visible with bit images not mention bit images description experiment deleted the bit images are viewed quickly and sync with screen then intensities could better than have dunno more deleted any case getting black color with slow machines problem could try our bit screens but don know how render pixels with constant time recall our double buffer has other image color and one that doesn help either maybe should dump photos screen with low level code how few years ago friend and took some grey level photos from bit mac plus screen using this method displaying all levels synchronized the display took about seconds after experimenting with different aperture settings and screen brightnesses found range that worked well giving respectable contrast the quality the images was pretty good there were visible contrast bands minimize the exposure time the display program built different bit frames the first contained dot only for pixels that had value the second only for pixels that had value etc these frames were stored using sparse data structure that was very fast onto the screen sequence creating these frames sometimes took minutes that old mac but the camera shutter was closed during that time anyway and yes wrote directly the screen memory mea culpa our biggest problem was that small images were displayed the top left corner the screen instead the center took extra week have the film developed and printed because the processors took the trouble manually move the all images into the center the print who have guessed regards jon rowlands
comp.graphics	more gray levels out the screen article btg csc com rowlands com jon rowlands writes few years ago friend and took some grey level photos from bit mac plus screen using this method displaying all levels synchronized the display took about seconds why didn you create grey level images and display them for time slices this requires the same total exposure time and the same precision timing but drastically reduces the image preparation time kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham campbell hall uab station fax birmingham
comp.graphics	rumours about article zola esd sgi com erik westworld esd sgi com erik fortune writes better than cdi much better than cdi course not agree does have more horsepower horsepower not the only measurement for better does not have full motion full screen video yet does have rom starting the quarter the first multiplayer will manufactured panasonic and will available late this year number other manufacturers are reported have compatible boxes the works which other manufacturers shall see about the date all this information third hand and worth what you paid for this second hand but still hard look the future lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media
comp.graphics	visuallib graphics for windows currently looking for graphics library that runs windows are there any such libraries out there other than visuallib must run vga and should not require any other add graphics cards for visuallib will run with metaware high compiler any email contact for the author visuallib any help would much appreciated thanks chua teck joo information technology institute email teckjoo iti gov science park drive phone singapore fax
comp.graphics	graphics library package all looking for recommandation good royalty free graphics library package for and program this mainly use write children games and education software heard someone mentioned genus and also gfx are they any good please pardon question sounds little strange asking this question for friend thanks advance caroline tsang cst garfield catt ncsu edu
comp.graphics	rumours about article eyz optimla aimla com lex optimla aimla com lex van sonderen writes article zola esd sgi com erik westworld esd sgi com erik fortune writes better than cdi much better than cdi course not agree does have more horsepower horsepower not the only measurement for better does not have full motion full screen video yet does have rom starting the quarter the first multiplayer will manufactured panasonic and will available late this year number other manufacturers are reported have compatible boxes the works which other manufacturers shall see about the date marketing rep recently offered phillips marketing rep bet that would have boxes the market schedule the phillips rep declined the bet probably because knew that players are already pre production manufacturing runs months before the commercial release date the time commercial release there will other manufacturers players announced and possibly already tooling production chip sets will full production the number software companies designing titles for the box will over how know this was bar down the road from headquarters last week some folks were bullshitting little too loudly about company business all this information third hand and worth what you paid for this second hand but still hard look the future lex van sonderen lex aimla com philips interactive media what impartial source
comp.graphics	graphics library package 
comp.graphics	wanted sird alogorythmn interested writing program generate sird picture you know the stereogram where you cross your eyes and the picture becomes does anyone have one know where can get one please mail steveq sndcrft dialix with any replies many thanks for your help steve
comp.graphics	any graphics packages available for aix does anybody know there are any good graphics packages available for ibm aix looking for something like dec gks hewlett packards starbase both which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters terminals etc have tried also xgks from distribution and ibm implementation phigs both them work but require more output devices than just windows our salesman ibm was not very familiar with graphics and not expecting for any good solutions from there ari ari suutari ari carel carelcomp lappeenranta finland
comp.graphics	hardcopy colored window mars ixos martin stein writes use xwd xpr from the dist and various programs the ppm tools print hardcopies colored windows problem don like xpr gives least the version does louzy output the hardcopy looks very grainy instead use pnmtops this takes full advantage postscript and lets the printer the dirty job dithering graylevel image black and white dots you have postscript printer try xwdtopnm xwdfile convert ppm ppmtopgm graylevel for smaller file print pnmtops noturn postscript lpr print pnmtops has several neat options but use them with care you want your image wide use pnmtops noturn scale width noturn prevents the image from being rotated wider than high width specifies the paper width not the image width see below scale used because the image small may fit within width less than and will thus printed smaller than wide you first scale lot will certainly not fit and will scaled down pnmtops automatically fit the specified paper width short pnmtops will scale image down fit the paper size but will not blow automatically hope this helps marcel marcel wijkstra aio wijkstra fwi uva faculty mathematics and computer science university amsterdam the netherlands life stinks fortunately got cold
comp.graphics	more gray levels out the screen article apr cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu kenneth sloan writes why didn you create grey level images and display them for time slices grey level images you mean items bit images does work but doesn work you have more than bit your screen and the screen intensity non linear with bit per pixel there could timing this gives levels but they are linear screen intensity linear with works but have find the best compinations there levels but choises best must chosen different compinations for the same level varies bit but the levels keeps their order readers should verify what wrote juhana kouhia
comp.graphics	looking for ctds can find ctds connect the dots smoother france commercial program happily pay whatever may cost not take litterally please help have lots pov sources texture images and animations though you are looking for something just tell
comp.graphics	pov previewer actually trying write something like this but encounter some problems amongst them drawing wireframe view quadric quartic requires that you have the explicit equation the quadric quartic functions some parameters how convert the implicit equation used pov explicit one mathematically always possible don have enough math find out myself has anybody heard about useful books the subject
comp.graphics	real time graphics article taurus nps navy mil stockel oahu nps navy mil jim stockel writes will writing data acquisition program collect data from variety sources including and external and would like able display the data near realtime done this type thing and other machines but unaware any graphics package that could help with this unix machine does anyone have any ideas commercial free packages that might suit needs would really appreciate any input sure this has been done many times before for commerical package try wave from precision visuals for free package try khoros from university new mexico ftp from ptrg eece unm edu login anonyomus ftp with valid email address the password pub khoros release that will get you the right place david
comp.graphics	bgi drivers for svga require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays does anyone know where could obtain the relevant drivers ftp sites regards simon crowe
comp.graphics	vesa the speedstar kjb mgl uvesa zip this universal vesa driver supports most video boards chipsets include the speedstar and bit color terry tried speedstar and and works not with all software for instance doesn work all with animator pro from autodesk can detect any svga modes when running univesa this really problem need vesa driver for both pro and some color stuff just out curiosity are you using the latest version versions previous this did not fill all the capabilities bits and other information correctly had problems with lot software until got this version don think the author got around posting announcementof least missed but was available the directory indicated sure did use version works fine with most software but not with animator pro and that one quite important pretty useless program without that thing working imho hope the author can fix that daniel daniel falk don quote comments ebenezum the great wizard fad tekn fad hjds also known the mega famous musician jkpg sweeeeeden leinad the yellow ones
comp.graphics	none set bear with new this game but could anyone explain exactly what dmorf does does simply fade one bitmap into another does shape one bitma into another please excuse ignorance not even sure posted thi message correctly
comp.graphics	help wanted for dmorf please bear with new this game apologize unreservedly hav posted another message earlier mistake but digress could anyone out ere please explain exactly what dmorf does dtax exe does simply fade one bitmap into another does reshape one bitmap into another excuse ignor ance
comp.graphics	test sorry 
comp.graphics	rumours about they need hit software product encourage software sales the product the pong pacman visicalc dbase pagemaker multi media there are some multi media and digital television products out there already albeit not capable but are there compelling reasons buy such yet perhaps someone this news group will write that hit software
comp.graphics	technical help sought immediate need for details various graphics compression techniques you know where could obtain descriptions algo rithms public domain source codes for such formats jpeg gif and fractals would immensely grateful you could share the info with this for project contemplating doing thanks advance please reply via mail possible hbj
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations some rendering programs require that all surface normals point the same direction closed cube all normals point outwards you can use the points the faces determine the direction the normal making sure that all points are either clockwise counter clockwise order how you about orienting all normals the same direction given set points edges and faces say that you had cube with all faces that have their normals facing outwards except for one face what the best way realize that face flipped and should have points ordered thought had good way telling this but then realized that the algorithm had would only tell you you had points clockwise order for polygon like something for data any hints tips references would appreciated steve where humor concerned there are standards one can say what good bad although you can sure that everyone will john kenneth galbraith these opinions are own
comp.graphics	graphics library package wgt the wordup graphics toolkit designed yours truly and programmer and brother chris egerter turbo borland graphics library for programming vga are currently producing shareware but few years may commercial product excuse typos there backspace this terminal features include loading and saving bit images called blocks from herein flipping resizing and warping blocks loading and saving palette fading several memory once graphics primitives such line circle bar rectangle region fill not the usually useless floodfill sprites animated bitmaps onscreen once joystick mouse support support voc and cmf tile based game creation using pixel tiles create tile map game world like duke nuke number sprites increased professional sprite creator utility and map maker routines simplify scrolling games using maps etc fli playing routines sprites can animated over the fli while playing pcx support soon gif ems xms coming soon well leave mail barry egerter egerter obelix gaul csd uwo files available use mget wgt zip simtel and mirrors msdos turbo nic funet pub msdos games programming some sites may not have recent files contact for info regarding the date information
comp.graphics	signature image database contact signaware corp original memo bcc vincent wall from imaging club subject signature verification date sent sci image processing from yyqi ece arizona edu yingyong subject signature image database organization arizona electrical and computer engineering all could someone tell there database handwriting signature images available for evaluating signature verification systems thanks
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations article apr cis uab edu sloan cis uab edu kenneth sloan writes brilliant algorithm not seriously correct sign change the flaw obvious and will therefore not shown sorry about that kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham campbell hall uab station fax birmingham
comp.graphics	genoa blitz hits sorry but this genoa card does nothing that the ati ultra plus can plus the ati costs street price
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations article pscti aqe travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com stephen pietrowicz writes how you about orienting all normals the same direction given set points edges and faces look for edge inconsistencies consider two vertices and which are connected least one edge edge then should not appear both and appear edges then the surface flips when you travel across that edge this bad assuming warning warning warning that you have otherwise acceptable surface you can pick edge any edge and traverse the surface enforcing consistency with that edge pick edge and mark for each face containing this edge more than oops make sure that all edges are consistent the face should flip those which are wrong mark all the edges and add them queue check for duplicates and especially inconsistencies don let the queue have both and remove edge from the queue and marked edge discovered inconsistent then you lose step finds more than one face sharing particular edge then you lose otherwise when done all the edges will consistent which means that all the surface normals will either point out deciding which way out left exercise kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham campbell hall uab station fax birmingham
comp.graphics	surface normal orientations pscti aqe travis csd harris com srp travis csd harris com stephen pietrowicz writes how you about orienting all normals the same direction given set points edges and faces this algorithm works well for algorithm attempt find outward facing normals first mark all faces unknown then create edge dictionary that allows you find all the faces sharing given edge where edge two integers representing the two shared vertices pick arbitrary face and mark counter clockwise using the edge dictionary orient all surrounding faces based the orientation this face and recurse for all surrounding faces consistently orienting the entire surface find the average the vertices this surface using that point calculate volume measurement taking into account the face orientation the volume turns out positive assume the faces are oriented correctly negative reverse their orientations mark them clockwise any faces are still unknown after this choose another face and through the algorithm again the end faces marked clockwise must have their indices reversed before facet normals are found note you are running silicon graphics machines and buy the iris inventor toolkit developers package you have the source this algorithm see usr src inventor tools ivnorm you not sorry can give out the source and even could relies heavily inventor gavin gavin sgi com
comp.graphics	million thousand colors andrey cco caltech edu andre yew writes dtek chalmers henrik harmsen writes bits per gives horrible machbanding visible almost any picture bits per colors gives visible machbanding color gradient picture has almost machbanding this color resolution see some small machbanding the smooth color gradient picture but all all there are situiations where you get visible mach banding even bit card you create very smooth color gradient dark green white yellow something and turn the contrast the monitor you will probably see some mach banding while don mean damn henrik attempt helpful here using common misconception that should corrected mach banding will occur for any image not the color quantization you see when you don have enough bits the human eye response transitions edges between intensities the result that colors near the transistion look brighter the brighter side and darker the darker side andre yeah course the term mach banding was not the correct one should been color quantization effect although bad color quantization effect could result some visible mach bands picture that was smooth before was quantizised henrik harmsen internet dtek chalmers chalmers university technology sweden haven lost mind backed tape somewhere
comp.graphics	real time graphics article apr falcon aamrl wpafb mil dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb mil writes article taurus nps navy mil stockel oahu nps navy mil jim stockel writes opps typed the phone numbers wrong here are the correct numbers for commerical package try wave from precision visuals for free package try khoros from university new mexico ftp from ptrg eece unm edu login anonyomus ftp with valid email address the password pub khoros release
comp.graphics	iges viewer for dos windows anybody know iges viewer for dos windows need able display computervision iges files running windows thanks advance brian safford email bsaffo cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and not reflect those electronic data systems corp
comp.graphics	computer graphics vcr help friend and have class project which are trying make computer animated movie sorts with the disney animation and would like put what have vcr this possible easy and relatively cheap how both have ibm compatibles but are relatively clueless with computers you could help please thanx brant ritter moshing cosmic cesspool physical delight kiedas rhcp
comp.graphics	stereoscopic imaging interested any information stereoscopic imaging sun workstation for the most part need know there any hardware available interface the system and whether the refresh rates are sufficient produce quality image representations any information about the subject would greatly appreciated thanks
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they article pdxgate uucp idr rigel pdx edu ian romanick writes one thing small change initial conditions can cause huge change final conditions there are certain things about the way the plate tektoniks and volcanic activity effect land scape that while not entirely random unpredictable this also true with fractals one could also conclude that you could model this fractally yeah and also true most long complicated sequences events calculations big computer programs general don argue that you can get similar and maybe useful results from fractals just question whether you should the fractal fiends seem saying that any part system that can model should replaced with random number generator that has been useful for instance making data more palatable human perception for torture testing the rest the system but don think has much with fractals and certainly would rather that the model improved more explicable manner guess just haven seen all these earth shaking fractal models that explain and correlate the universe actually exists really hope but not holding self similar breath there one other thing that fractals are good for fractal image compression huh believe when see been chasing fractal compression for few years and still don believe great how come don see competing with jpeg cause can wager actually have wagered quit trying make fractal compression work and was trying because don think reasonable alternative other techniques neat though reiterate disbelief that everything fractal that why don think fractal compression widely explained practical know barnsley and sloan have some tricks their sleeves that make their demos work but don see anyone using real product been six years since iterated systems was formed right there are always going questions until there product out there sloan replies the company plans ship its first encoding devices the summer says march iterated systems will have the other half the system the decoders scientific american march page allen don even get started
comp.graphics	complex with real and imaginary parts bio medical images are complex bio medical images available anywhere the net for experimentation complex mean that every sampled data point has magnitude and phase information both thanks for any pointers vishwa
comp.graphics	mpeg for dos does anyone know where can ftp mpeg for dos from thanks for any help advance email preferred but posting fine scott lord soth knight email lordsoth uiuc the black rose next sas sumter cso uiuc edu have clue what want say here won say anything
comp.graphics	help need complete list all the polygons that there are order summarize the net only had been compiled with the option
comp.graphics	help colors display you probably have set the palette before you try drawing the new colours use the bios interrupt calls set the values the range from for most cards for particular palette colour the range from for colour modes then you should able draw pixels those palette values and the result should you might have bit colourmap compressing you have more than unique rgb triplets for colour mode geoff thomas geoffrey cosc canterbury computer science dept university canterbury private bag christchurch oook new zealand
comp.graphics	rumours about stgprao unocal com richard ottolini writes they need hit software product encourage software sales the product the pong pacman visicalc dbase pagemaker multi media there are some multi media and digital television products out there already albeit not capable but are there compelling reasons buy such yet perhaps someone this news group will write that hit software just had the good fortune hired electronic arts senior computer graphics artist the vancouver canada office the timing has lot with the which putting lot resources into not know any titles developed yet but will happy post things develop start there may markus tessmann
comp.graphics	quicktime movie available article johnsh mustang stu rpi edu wrote used the recently released macintosh application mpeg quicktime convert the excellent mpeg canyon mpg into quicktime movie while anyone who would want this movie perfectly able convert themselves thought let the net know that glad mail copies mine out the movie conversion took close six hours poor little iicx other words unless you got quadra you might not want tie your machine converting this file the movie fast fly through fractal generated canyon landscape the movie seconds long and uses the compact video compressor quicktime the movie looks okay bit displays and looks absolutely awesome and bit displays happy mail this movie the first people who ask for the only caveat you need able receive nine megabyte mail message the movie was stuff down seven megs but binhex ruined that party more then people want this movie then just more evidence that the net needs dedicated quicktime ftp archive site mon someone gotta have spare drive out there okay received whole lot requests for the movie for simplicity sake can mail out any more than already received edt tuesday maybe pop site sooner later hugh johnson johnsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute welcome macintosh troy new york usa
comp.graphics	msc code view save images dear binary newsers looking for quick microsoft code for image decoding from file for vga viewing and saving images from gif tiff pcx jpeg format have scoured the internet but its like trying find seuss spell checker tsr must out there and there need reinvent the wheel thanx advance the internet like black hole
comp.graphics	autocad tiff can done hello realize that this might faq but have ask since don get change read this newsgroup very often anyways for senior project need convert autocad file tiff file please don need anyone telling that the autocad file vector file and the tiff bit map since have heard that about times already would just like know anyone knows how this least point the right direction any help greatly appreciated matt georgy
comp.graphics	gamma law correction digitizing ntsc signal and displaying video monitor known that the display response tubes non linear and sometimes said follow gamma law not certain these non linearities are gamma corrected before encoding ntsc signals the display supposed correct this also grey levels for example are coded program these intensity levels appear with linear brightness monitor other words does monitor display circuitry correct for gamma errrors your response much appreciated amjad amjad soomro ccs computer science center maryland college park email amjad wam umd edu
comp.graphics	mpeg for windows mono needed hello and thank you for reading this request have mpeg viewer for windows and did not run because was running monochrome monitor need the mono driver for mpeg play please post the location the file better yet mail mlee eng sdsu edu
comp.graphics	thining algorithm article innmi shelley washington edu kshin stein washington edu kevin shin writes trying obtain program preprocess handwriting characters like thining algorithm graph alogrithm anyone know where can obtain those usually use algorithms for graphics and image processing theodosios pavlidis but other people here got them same idea and now copies the libraries have been stolen another reference digital image processing gonzalez and wintz wood which widely available but little expensive here just checked today
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance article apr galki toppoint ulrich galki toppoint writes according the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week read the hitchhikers guide the galaxy this actually how they picked the number sure and not amused every time read that part the tiff spec infuriates and none too happy about the complexity the spec anyway because think their arbitrary but carefully chosen number neither additionally find their choice bytes begin file with meaningless themselves why not just use the letters tiff and don think they should have bothered support both word orders either and found that many tiff readers actually don
comp.graphics	vga graphics mode gchen essex ecn uoknor edu writes article doh constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings does anybody know possible set vga graphics mode instead any info appreciated some vesa bios support this mode and any vga should able support this colors since only requires bytes vesa tsr supports this the only vesa mode card can support due restrictions paradise not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	weitek abraxis iastate edu writes article abraxis class iastate edu anyone know about the weitek graphics chip micron selling with their systems they rank them winmarks any info would help thanks supposedly high performance chip based upon workstation graphics accelerators quite fast have but usual with new boards chips the drivers are buggy for windows far winmarks depends upon the version think got winmarks with version yielded the number also benchmarked this with wintach over from memory well far the low level stuff goes looks pretty nice got this quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points very fast but beware buggy drivers and otherwise non windows support not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation article lsk inn caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation there any reference useful for creating objects yes what the advantage used create tin triangulated irregular network which basically bunch triangles which form surface over group points what special about that the triangles formed are the most equalateral possible check out proceedings autocarto where sorry don have specific reference describing the process michael
comp.graphics	graphic formats writing some utilies convert regis and tektonic esacpe sequences into some useful formats would rather not have goto bitmap format can convert them window meta files easily enough but would rather convert them corel draw cdr power point ppt files microsoft would not give the format was wondering anybody out there knows the formats for these two applications
comp.graphics	nice gif code there thing called xgif xgif the grandfather
comp.graphics	rumours about archer archer bad cop surly archer elysium esd sgi com archer how about interactive sex with madonna sexium for short lars lars fischer fischer iesd auc takes uncommon mind think dept aalborg univ denmark these things calvin
comp.graphics	forms for curses note the followup header steelem rintintin colorado edu steele mark writes there collection forms routines that can used with curses where located svr amiga unix box got lform lmenu and lpanel for use with the curses library guess what they provide unix press prentice hall has programmer guide for these tools referred the fmli forms mgmt language interface and eti extended terminal interface now edition isbn paraphrased from the outside back cover fmli high level programming tool for creating menus forms and text frames eti set screen management library subroutines that promote fast development application programs for window panel menu and form manipulation the fmli shell package which reads ascii text files and produces screen displays for data entry and presentation consists shell like environment the fmli program and database files section the unix press manual the eti are subroutines part the manual section provide support for multi window capability ordinary ascii terminal with controls built top the curses library thanks mark steele steelem rintintin colorado edu frank crash edwards edwards edwards consulting voice crash ckctpa myrddin sybus com but please data don ask uunet route sloooow there will times life when everyone you meet smiles and pats you the back and tells you how great you are hold your wallet
comp.graphics	trying view pov files merkelbd sage purdue edu brian merkel writes article apr ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu edward nobles writes been trying view tga files created povray have the diamond speedstar video board not the far can convert them jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color looking for some way convert and view them bit have univesa uvesa zip and the dvpeg viewer but don get anything perhaps not setting univesa properly anyone has ideas about this please feel free enlighten just want see the darn things real color image alchemy aka alchemy will view the tga files that pov outputs and just about any other format you can think will also convert between all these shareware probably available ftp somwhere out there netland yep alchemy works fine tseng dac but think remember reading that only displays bit course that still colors which nothing sneeze use the flag neal miller why not mad millernw craft camp clarkson edu clarkson university ford prefect dark craft camp clarkson edu
comp.graphics	hot new software there new product for the ibm ers out there called imagine and just started shipping yesterday can personally attest that will blow the doors off studio made impulse and its version for the ibm can morphing your standard key framming animation raytracer reflections shadows and can apply special objects like ripple explode bounce things that nature also has algorithmic texture maps and your standard brushmapping also you can have animated brushmaps live video mapped the objs also animated backdrops live video backgrounds also animted reflections maps you get the idea will run for about retail think dont let the low price fool you this product can all when comes animation and renderering also does anyone here know how get the imagine mailing list please mail you post here the number for impulse trb msstate edu
comp.graphics	hot new software previous article trb msstate edu tony boutwell says there new product for the ibm ers out there called imagine and just started shipping yesterday can personally attest that will blow the doors off studio made impulse and its well don know about its competing with studio but pretty powerful allright also does anyone here know how get the imagine mailing list please mail you post here yes send mail imagine request email paramax com with header something like subscribe actually work the faq frequently asked questions should have the new version out next week but you want could mail you the previous one details what the list etc well answering basic questions about imagine hope this helps michael comet software engineer graphics artist cwru mbc cwru edu silence those who oppose the freedom speech
comp.graphics	vga graphics mode article snx rjck uucp rob rjck uucp robert kyanko writes gchen essex ecn uoknor edu writes article doh constellation ecn uoknor edu greetings does anybody know possible set vga graphics mode instead any info appreciated some vesa bios support this mode and any vga should able support this colors since only requires bytes vesa tsr supports this the only vesa mode card can support due restrictions paradise not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp ahh possibly you punched the wrong numbers your calculator color modes take byte per pixel time which exact only takes but don think bios mode wouldn bet that all vga cards can that either vga card has bet can both and that definition svga though not very high svga
comp.graphics	tin files coutours working project that needs create contour lines from random data points the work that have done far tells that need look into triangulated irregular networks tin the delauney criiterion and the krige method does anyone have any suggestions for references programs and hopefully source code for creating contours any help with this any surface modeling would greatly appreciated can reached the addresses below paul conway pvconway copper denver colorado edu pvconway cudnvr denver colorado edu
comp.graphics	apr toronto siggraph event toronto siggraph what chance art graphics and animation the indigo ken evans imagicians artware inc when tuesday april where the mcluhan centre for culture and technology university toronto queen park crescent toronto who members and non members alike non members encouraged become members abstract imagicians artware inc entering into early beta site testing silicon graphics workstations new abstract artwork and animation package called chance art the package will described and demonstrated and some the technical issues will discussed marketing plans will outlined the talk will also present some the technical and business problems increasingly confronting small startup software companies today and some the opportunities this situation presents time after the event will allocated for hands demonstrations interested parties silicon graphics graciously providing indigo for this event myck kupka will also demonstrating his computerized interactive reflective stereoscope which installed upstairs the mcluhan centre feel free drop for demonstration before after the event btw sure sing happy birthday myck the names nominees for our siggraph executive offices will announced this meeting nominations will still open until the election our may event call myck kupka fax directions the mcluhan coachhouse the east side queen park crescent just north wellesley south joseph behind east queen park crescent which the centre for mediaeval studies for information toronto siggraph membership contact michael mccool via internet mccool dgp utoronto voice fax
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation there any reference the delaunay triangulation the geometrical dual the voronoi tessellation and both constructions are derived from natural neighbor order aurenhammer voronoi diagrams survey fundamental geometric data structure acm computing surveys okabe boots and sugihara spatial tessellations concepts and applications voronoi diagrams wiley sons new york isbn watson computing the dimensional delaunay tessellation with application voronoi polytopes the computer watson natural neighbour sorting the australian computer dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu department mathematics the university western australia tel nedlands australia fax
comp.graphics	ansi aiim standard image file format wing the suggestion stu lynne have posted the image file format executable and source code alt sources herman silbiger
comp.graphics	trying view pov files article apr ornl gov ednobles sacam oren ortn edu edward nobles writes been trying view tga files created povray have the diamond speedstar video board not the far can convert them jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color looking for some way convert and view them bit just want see the darn things real color thanks jim nobles the best program seen for viewing such files vpic you want version later current allows you view and bit modes really quite nice now for return question you run windows what are the dates your drivers the newest ones can find are from around problem they conflict with star trek after dark and other things well willing bet that the drivers and not the programs anyone out there have info newer not drivers for windows thanks justin
comp.graphics	looking for circle algorithm faster than bresenhams article apr nwnexus com mpdillon halcyon com michael dillon writes have algorithm similar bresenhams line drawing algorithm that draws line stepping along the minor axis and drawing slices like aaaa bbbb cccc the following diagram aaaa bbbb cccc yes that known bresenhams run length slice algorithm for incremental lines see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics springer verlag berlin heidelberg have tried extrapolate this circles but can figure out how determine the length the slices any ideas hmm don think can help you with this but you might take look the following double step incremental generation lines and circles and rokne computer graphics and image processing vol mar double step generation ellipses and rokne ieee computer graphics applications may graeme gill
comp.graphics	mail michael abrash 
comp.graphics	fonts pov have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv was rayshade with stroked fonts appearing objects the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now was wondering possible the same pov thanks noel
comp.graphics	polygon reduction for marching cubes dear reader searching for implementation polygon reduction algorithm for marching cubes surfaces think the best one the reduction algorithm from schroeder siggraph there any implementation this algorithm would very nice you could leave also looking for fast connectivity test for marching cubes surfaces any help hints will very useful thanks lot ooo ooo erwin keeve adress peter welter platz cologne germany dept computergraphics phone computeranimation fax academy media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln
comp.graphics	dmpeg zip info another dos mpeg decoder player posted have posted dos mpeg decoder player alt binaries pictures utilities here short description and some technical information taken from the accompanying documentation dmpeg public domain mpeg decoder stefan eckart features dmpeg dmplay another mpeg decoder player for the decodes nearly the full mpeg video standard frames frame size least supported saves decoded sequence bit raw file for later display optional screen display during decoding requires vga several dithering options ordered dither floyd steinberg grayscale color space selection runs under dos ram windows required very compact small code small data models bit arithmetic real time display the raw file separate player for vga and many super vgas technical information the player rather straightforward implementation the mpeg spec the idct based the chen wang multiplication algorithm not quite the optimum know blocks with not more than eight non zero coefficients use non separated direct multiply accumulate idct sounds great doesn which turned out faster than fast algorithm this quite common case dithering pretty standard main difference the berkeley decoder except for the fewer number supported algorithms the use instead colors the default option use restricted color space and the implementation color saturation dominant ordered dither this leads significantly superior quality the dithered image claim judge yourself restricted color space means that the and components are clipped instead and the display color space points are distributed over this restricted space since the distance between color space points thus reduced factor two the color resolution doubled the expense not being able represent fully saturated colors saturation dominant ordered dither method which color lying somewhere between the points the display color space approximated primarily alternating between two points constant hue instead constant saturation this yields subjectivly better quality due the lower sensitivity the human viewing system saturation changes than hue changes the same reasoning used the pal standard improve ntsc the improvement particularly visible dark brown redish areas stefan eckart stefan lis technik muenchen
comp.graphics	point within polygon looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject regards simon
comp.graphics	pov reboots after memory upgrade until last week have been running povray under dos without any major problems over easter increased the memory from meg meg and found that povray reboots the system every time under dos had running povray dos window when running win the same system and now works fine even lot slower would like back using povray directly under dos anyone any ideas john john heaton nrs central administrator mcc network unit the university oxford road manchester phone fax packet yyh yyh pwy gbr
comp.graphics	good shareware paint and animation software for sgi does anyone know any good shareware animation paint software for sgi machine exhausted everyplace the net can find and still don hava nice piece software thanks alot chad knock knock chad cipiti who there cleveland freenet edu cipiti bobcat ent ohiou edu might heisenberg chad voxel zool ohiou edu
comp.graphics	processing stereo images interested find out what involved processing pairs stereo photographs have black and white photos and would like obtain surface contours prefer the processing sgi but would interested hearing what software hardware used for this type image processing please email and post comp sys sgi graphics your responses thanks dane hendrix email dane wizard navy mil dtmb headquarters carderock div hendrix oasys navy mil naval surface warfare center hendrix nas nasa gov code bethesda phone
comp.graphics	weitek robert kyanko rob rjck uucp wrote abraxis iastate edu writes article abraxis class iastate edu anyone know about the weitek graphics chip far the low level stuff goes looks pretty nice got this quadrilateral fill command that requires just the four points you have weitek address phone number like get some information about this chip joe green harris corporation jgreen csd harris com computer systems division the only thing that really scares person with sense humor jonathan winters
comp.graphics	sun and bit ascii graphics would like know anyone has had any luck using the upper ascii characters sun station trying convert fortran program run sun when write character buffers the sun which contain char char char etc get characters the screen but they are not the characters the standard ascii tables any ideas help will appreciated
comp.graphics	looking for circle algorithm faster than bresenhams wed apr gmt graeme labtam labtam graeme gill said graeme yes that known bresenhams run length slice algorithm for graeme incremental lines see fundamental algorithms for computer graphics graeme springer verlag berlin heidelberg have tried extrapolate this circles but can figure out how determine the length the slices any ideas graeme hmm don think can help you with this but you might graeme take look the following graeme double step incremental generation lines and circles graeme and rokne computer graphics and image processing graeme vol mar graeme double step generation ellipses and rokne graeme ieee computer graphics applications may another paper you might want consider article fungdraw title run length slice line drawing algorithm without division operations author khun yee fung and tina nicholl and dewdney journal computer graphics forum year volume number pages khun yee khun yee fung clipper csd uwo department computer science middlesex college university western ontario london ontario canada tel fax
comp.graphics	geometry package looking for package which takes inputs set geometric objects defined unions convex polytopes specified some manner say inequalities and equalities and determines some reasonable form things like intersections unions etc etc does anyone know where can find such thing dan naiman department mathematical sciences johns hopkins university
comp.graphics	point within polygon article apr bull scrowe hemel bull simon crowe writes looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject see the article efficient ray polygon intersection graphics gems isbn the second step intersecting the polygon does what you want there sample code the book spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla they are not bolsheviks just bullshitviks yevgeny yevtechenko again meeting
comp.graphics	distance between two bezier curves pes hutcs hut pekka siltanen writes suppose two cubic bezier curves control points and which have equal first and last control points how get upper bound for distance between these curves which distance the distance between one point the first curve and point the other curve with same parameter any references appreciated thanks anvance pekka siltanen
comp.graphics	point within polygon scrowe hemel bull simon crowe writes looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject well been while since this was discussed take the liberty reprinting without permission sue eric haines reprint the very interesting discussion this topic jonas snip snip give man fish and eat one day give man fishing rod and laze around fishing and never anything with that mind reprint without permission sue relevant information posted some years ago this very problem note the early use postscript technology predating many this year papers listed the april siggraph program announcement posted here few days ago eric intersection between line and polygon undecidable dave baraff tom duff from deb charisma graphics cornell edu newsgroups comp graphics keywords jordan curve separation ursyhon metrization theorem organization program computer graphics article ncsmith ndsuvax uucp timothy lyle smith writes need find formula algorithm determine line intersects polygon would prefer method that would this little time possible need this for use forward raytracing program think that this very difficult problem start with lines and polygons are semi algebraic sets which both contain uncountable number points here are few off the cuff ideas first need check the line and the polygon are separated now the jordan curve separation theorem says that the polygon divides the plane into exactly two open and thus non compact regions thus the line lies completely inside the polygon the line lies completely outside the polygon possibly but this will rarely happen the line intersects the polyon now the phrasing this question says line intersects polygon this decision problem one possibility the decision model approach reduce the question some other well known problem and then try solve answer gives answer the original decision problem recent years many geometric problems have been successfully modeled new language called postscript see postscript language adobe systems incorporated isbn given line and polygon can write postscript program that draws the line and the polygon and then outputs the answer output mean the program executes command called showpage which actually prints page paper containing the line and the polygon quick examination the paper provides answer the reduced problem and thus the original problem there are two small problems with this approach there infinite number ways encode and into the reduced problem will forced invoke the axiom choice equivalently zorn lemma but the use the axiom choice not regarded very serious light these days more importantly the question arises whether not the postscript program will actually output piece paper other words will halt now postscript expressive enough encode everything that turing machine might thus the halting problem for postscript undecidable quite possible that the original problem will turn out undecidable won even begin into other difficulties such aliasing finite precision and running out ink paper both couple references might principia mathematica newton cambridge university press cambridge england sorry don have isbn for this introduction automata theory languages and computation hopcroft and ulman the programming language kernighan and ritchie tale two cities dickens from alice uucp tom duff summary overkill organization bell laboratories murray hill the situation not nearly bleak baraff suggests should know better hung around the labs for long enough the well known dobbin dullman reduction see dullman dobbin comp obfusc lemma line polygon intersection can reduced hamiltonian circuit without the use grobner bases lpi coin acronym probably only complete besides turing completeness will longer problem once our cray delivered since will able complete infinite loop milliseconds with scatter gather from deb svax cornell edu david baraff well sure its worse than complete but that only you restrict yourself the case where the line satisfies lipschitz condition its second derivative think there siggraph paper from caltech that deals with this email jonas isy liu dept electrical engineering voice university linkoping sweden fax
comp.graphics	point within polygon article apr bull scrowe hemel bull simon crowe writes looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject regards simon basically there are two algorithms determining whether point inside outside the polygon the first one ray half line method this method you can draw any ray the number the intersection point the ray and the polygon even then outside the number odd then inside cause you have deal with the special cases which may make you headache the second method algorithm draw the lines between the point and all the vertices the polygon calculate and sum the angles the successive lines the result then inside then the polygon otherwise outside experience tells the second method relible hope this helps yeh usc
comp.graphics	two pointing devices one com port bob davis sonny trantor harris atd com wrote article tkgm unix portal com wil shell portal com ville walveranta writes there any way connect two pointing devices one serial port haven tried this but believe they would interfere with each other even only one time would used just get switch for look computer shopper they are available fairly cheap they allow switching between two serial devices single port unfortunately the poster wants use internal and external modem switch isn going help them you aren using your com ports for anything else just define them different com ports define your internal modem say com and your external modem com you really shouldn have worry about interrupt conflicts since you won using both modems the same time christopher chan nui investment reliability will increase until channui austin ibm com exceeds the probable cost errors until someone include disclaimer insists getting some useful work done
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they article pdxgate uucp idr rigel pdx edu ian romanick writes they talked about another routine that could yield compress with image loss that could notice the draw back that takes hell long time compress something have see can find the book that can give more exact numbers ttyl that typical claim though they say they improved compression speed considerably did you find out anything else about the book interested looking you could give any pointers reportedly early fractal compression times hours used that marvelous piece hardware called grad students the work supposedly been automated since about but still waiting impressed allen sign cynical
comp.graphics	bgi drivers for svga dominic lai cylai ust wrote simon crowe scrowe hemel bull wrote require bgi drivers for super vga displays and super xvga displays does anyone know where could obtain the relevant drivers ftp sites would like know too regards dominic garbo uwasa one its many mirrors has file called svgabg the programming subdirectory these are svga bgi drivers for variety cards from the readme card types supported supervga drivers ahead ati chips tech everex genoa paradise oak trident both and tseng both and chipsets and video these drivers will also work video cards with vesa capability the tweaked drivers will work any register compatible vga card enjoy clark verbrugge clump mcgill honk honk blat wak wak wak wak wak ungow
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance article mentor purdue edu nova purdue edu allen writes article apr galki toppoint ulrich galki toppoint writes according the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week read the hitchhikers guide the galaxy this actually how they picked the number sure and not amused every time read that part the tiff spec infuriates and none too happy about the complexity the spec anyway because think their arbitrary but carefully chosen number neither additionally find their choice bytes begin file with meaningless themselves why not just use the letters tiff and don think they should have bothered support both word orders either and found that many tiff readers actually don why tight for that matter tiff out now why not gripe about its problems also its important you volunteer help define critique the spec finally little numerology backwards and tiff bit image format chris christopher tully cptully med unc edu univ north carolina chapel hill chapel hill get paid for opinions but that doesn mean that unc anybody else agrees with them
comp.graphics	interleaf cgm has anyone successfully converted interleaf graphics cgm even heard being done love hear about mike mcconnell emm cray com
comp.graphics	hollywood hits virtual reality sorry missed you raymond was just out dahlgren last month the virtual reality market manager for silicon graphics perhaps can help little article mar relay nswc navy mil rchui nswc nswc navy mil raymond chui writes hello the real reality our agency started express interest virtual reality far not know much about all know about are the hollywood movies the terminater and lawnmover man also know something about from abc news magazine and computer graphics world magazine unfortunately while sgi systems were used create the special effects for both terminator and lawnmower man those are film quality computer graphics rendered software and written film frame time each frame computer animation for those films took hours render high end parallel processing computer systems thus that level graphics would difficult not impossible acheive real time frames per second certainly want know more about who are the leading companies agencies universities what machines support sgi sun bim etc depends upon how serious you are and how advanced your application true immersive visualization requires the rendering complex visual databases anywhere from newly rendered frames per second this similar requirement that traditional flight simulators for pilot training the frame rate too low the user notices the stepping the frames they move their head rapidly around the scene the motion the graphics not smooth and contiguous thus the graphics system must powerful enough sustain high frame rates while rendering complex data representations additionally the frame rate must constant the system renders frames per second one point then frames per second the next perhaps due the scene the new viewing direction being simpler than what was visible before the user can get heavily distracted the medium the graphics computer rather than focusing the data maintain constant frame rate the system must able run real time unix general does not support real time operation but silicon graphics has modified the unix kernel for its multi processor systems able support real time operation bypassing the usual unix process priority management schemes uniprocessor systems running unix cannot fundamentally support real time operation not sun sparc not series systems not ibm not even sgi uniprocessor systems like indigo crimson only our multiprocessor onyx and challenge systems support real time operation due their symmetric multi processing smp shared memory architecture from graphics perspective rendering complex virtual environments requires advanced rendering techniques like texture mapping and real time multi sample anti aliasing all the general purpose graphics systems the market today only crimson realityengine and onyx realityengine systems fully support these capabilities the anti aliasing particularly important the crawling jagged edges aliased polygons unfortunate distraction when immersed virtual environment what kind graphics languages are used with opengl phigs pex gks etc you can use the general purpose graphics libraries listed above develop applications but that starting pretty low level there are off the shelf software packages available get you going much faster being targeted directly the application developer some the most popular are particular order division inc redwood city dvs sens inc sausalito worldtoolkit naval postgraduate school monterey npsnet free gemini technology corp irvine gvs simation series paradigm simulation inc dallas visionworks audioworks silicon graphics inc mountain view iris performer there are some others but not off the top head what companies are making interface devices for goggles boom binocular omni orientational monitor hamlets gloves arms etc there are too many list here but here smattering fake space labs menlo park boom virtual technologies inc stanford cyberglove digital image design new york the cricket input kaiser electro optics carlsbad sim eye helmet displays virtual research sunnyvale flight helmet display virtual reality inc pleasantville head mtd displays software systems san jose modeling software etc etc etc what are those company addresses and phone numbers where can get list name experts and their phone numbers and email addresses read some the books the market virtual reality ken pimental and ken texiera virtual mirage artificial reality myron kreuger etc check out the newsgroup sci virtual worlds feel free contact for more info regards josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view interactive entertainment tel fax mail mogal sgi com
comp.graphics	point within polygon article jonas gouraud jonas isy liu jonas yngvesson writes intersection between line and polygon undecidable dave baraff tom duff from deb charisma graphics cornell edu recent years many geometric problems have been successfully modeled new language called postscript see postscript language adobe systems incorporated isbn given line and polygon can write postscript program that draws the line and the polygon and then outputs the answer output mean the program executes command called showpage which actually prints page paper containing the line and the polygon quick examination the paper provides answer the reduced problem and thus the original problem curiously modern postscript the point polygon problem can solved even more easily wit title point polygon creator allen purdue edu for the amusement comp graphics regulars languagelevel documentneededresource humor sense thereof endcomments this program will test whether point inside given polygon currently uses the even odd rule but that can changed replacing ineofill with infill these are level operators you only got level you out luck the result will printed the output stream caution only accurate device pixels put huge scale first you aren sure point test put and coordinates here vertices polygon counter clockwise order put array pairs coordinates here dup get aload pop moveto dup length dup roll sub getinterval aload pop lineto forall closepath ineofill yes ifelse
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap everyone thought that some people may interested software these groups announcing the release multiverse multiverse multi user non immersive windows based virtual reality system primarily focused entertainment research features client server based model using berkeley sockets limit the number users apart from performance generic clients customizable servers hierachical objects allowing attachment cameras and light sources multiple light sources ambient point and spot objects can have extension code handle unique functionality easily attached functionality client the client built around fast render loop basically changes things when told the server and then renders image from the user viewpoint also provides the server with information about the user actions which can then communicated other clients and therefore other users the client designed generic other words you don need develop new client when you want enter new world this means that resources can spent enhancing the client software rather than adapting the adaptations will explained moment occur the servers this release the client software supports the following functionality hierarchical objects with associated addressing multiple light sources and types ambient point and spot user interface panels colour polygonal rendering with phong shading optional wireframe for faster frame rates mouse and keyboard input some people may disappointed that this software doesn support the powerglove input device this not because can but because don have one this will however one the first enhancements server this where customization can take place the following basic support provided this release for potential world server developers transparent client management client message handling this may not sound like much but takes away the headache accepting and terminating clients and receiving messages from them the application writer can work with the assumption that things are happening locally things get more interesting the object extension functionality this what provided allow you animate your objects server selectable extension installation what this means that you can decide which objects have extended functionality your world basically you call the extension initialisers you want event handler registration when you develop extensions for object you basically write callback functions for the events that you want the object respond current events supported init move change collide terminate collision detection registration you want your object respond collision events just provide some basic information the collision detection management software your callback will activated when collision occurs this software kept separate from the worldserver applications because the application developer wants build library extended objects from which choose the following all you need make world server application provide initworld function this where you choose what object extensions will supported plus any initialization you want provide positionobject function this where you determine where place new client provide installworldobjects function this where you load the world wld file for new client provide getworldtype function this where you tell new client what persona they should have provide animateworld function this where you can wild minimum you should let the objects move calling move function and let the server sleep for bit avoid outrunning the clients that all there and prove here are the line counts for the three world servers provided generic lines dactyl lines more complicated collision detection due the stairs will probably improved with future versions dogfight lines location this software located the following site ftp washington edu directory pub virtual worlds file multiverse tar futures client texture mapping more realistic rendering buffering similar gouraud shading hmd support etc etc server physical modelling gravity friction etc enhanced object management interaction etc etc both improved comms hope this provides people with good understanding the multiverse software unfortunately comes with practically zero documentation and not sure whether that will ever able rectified hope people enjoy this software and that useful our explorations the virtual universe certainly found fascinating developing and would love add support for the powerglove and hmd finally one major disclaimer this totally amateur code that mean there support for this code other than what out the kindness heart you out pure desperation provide cannot held responsible for anything good bad that may happen through the use this code use your own risk disclaimer over course you love would like here from you and anyone with positive contributions criticisms also encouraged contact anyone who hates dev null and anyone wants let this for living you know where write thanks robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap update location directory should public virtual worlds sorry robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	pcx hello help please student turbo and graphics programming and having some problems finding algorithms and code teach how some stuff where there book code that will teach how read and write pcx dbf and gif files how access the extra ram paradise video board can paging the higher vga modes anybody got line good book help answer these question thanks very much send reply palm snycanva bitnet peace blessed stephen palm
comp.graphics	what good assembly vga programming book can someone give the title good vga graphics programming book please respond email thanks yuan che yuan wang uxa cso uiuc edu cywang cso uiuc edu
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they regards fractal commpression have seen fractal compressed movies they were both fairly impressive the first one was gray scale movie casablanca was and had minutes fps video was little grainy but not bad all the second one saw was only minutes but had bit color with fps and measured consider the fractal movies practical thing explore but unlike many other formats out there you end losing resolution don know what kind software hardware was used for creating the movies saw but the guy that showed them said took minutes per frame generate but said above playback was more frames per second and how else could you put minutes one floppy disk davidr rincon ema rockwell com opinions are own except where they are shared others which case will probably change mind
comp.graphics	vga graphics mode vesa tsr supports this can you report crt and other register state this mode thank serge ivanov serge argus msk
comp.graphics	reaction diffusion techniques this past week been playing with some the reaction diffusion not confused with rds techniques from siggraph was wondering what material available explain the control mechanism little more seems very much like matter picking random magic numbers and sitting back and waiting although both the papers turk and witkin kass were very well organized and extremely helpful guess what need more basic description the technique especially wrt the control mechanisms the tests that did had tendency either turn into blurry mud become unstable there any info available online source code would great but not necessary thanks terran boylan artist programmer better have loved engineering animation inc ames and lost than just have lost dorky dog
comp.graphics	bit graphics cards looking for eisa vesa local bus graphic cards that support least resolution know matrox has one but very expensive all the other cards know that support that resoultion are striaght isa also are there any servers for unix that support bits thanks
comp.graphics	fractal generation clouds haabn nye nscee edu frederick haab writes need implement algorithm fractally generate clouds sort benchmark for some algorithms working just matter interest self promo computer graphics sequence that one the local stations used play quite lot couple years ago showed flyover australia from the west coast the east the clouds were quite recognisable fuzzy flat white mandlebrot sets david silver
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations also need contact info name address email you can find thanks please post your responses case others have same need bob carpenter
comp.graphics	hot new software article qflpk usenet ins cwru edu mbc cwru edu michael comet wrote previous article trb msstate edu tony boutwell says there new product for the ibm ers out there called imagine and just started shipping yesterday can personally attest that will blow the doors off studio made impulse and its well don know about its competing with studio but pretty powerful allright yes but key issue speed how fast imagine and easy use studio can just render fast you don want things like ior etc can fine shadows animated reflection maps animated bump maps animated anything maps and with the ipas routines not that ever seen them can explosions top quality morphing fire rain lens flares etc not knocking imagine just want know how compares with
comp.graphics	raytracers which best all just recently become seriously hooked pov but there are few thing that want that pov won penumbral shadows dispersion etc was just wondering what other shareware freeware raytracers are out there and what can they heard vivid and polyray and rayshade and but rather wade through several hundred pages manual for each trying work out what their capabilities are can anyone help comparison tracing speed between each program would also mucho useful mark mark mackey life terminal disease and oxygen mmackey aqueous csiro addictive are you hooked
comp.graphics	shareware recently saw the latest computer shopper and there was article nice shareware graphics programs they looked pretty good and the listed the article one had graphics workshop one found via archie draft choice old version though and the rest couldn find there anyone that knows where can get the following programs via anonymous ftp please let know adkins graphics zip zip draft choice latest vga version draftc zip envision publisher envis zip envis zip neopaint neopnt zip thanx advance petro david petro kwyjibo big dumb balding dept physics north american ape university windsor petro server uwindsor
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac robert carpenter writes netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations also need contact info name address email you can find thanks please post your responses case others have same need bob carpenter too would like graphics library how much libraries cost anyway can you get the tools used say renderman and can you get them reasonable cost sorry that don have any answers just questions matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
comp.graphics	thinning algorithm netters looking for source code that can reads the ascii file bitmap file and produced the thinned image for example preprocess the character image want apply thinning algorithm thanks kevin
comp.graphics	looking for autocad dxf file parser hello does anyone know any function libraries the public domain that assist parsing autocad dxf file please mail thanks jogle geigel seas gwu edu
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation does anybody know what delaunay triangulation there any reference useful for creating objects yes what the advantage thanks advance yeh usc
comp.graphics	cylinder and ray article fginnbv darkstar ucsc edu koehler secs ucsc edu writes would most thrilled some kind person could help with the following given cylinder defined line segment between two points and radius and what the easiest and not too expensive way find ray defined another line through two points cuts through this cylinder and where think the test for touching rather simple the closest approach the two lines less than then the ray does penetrate the cylinder nope this won work for cylinder you can have line arbitrarily close the the cylinder backbone and yet not intersect the test works for pillbox though cylinder with two hemispheres attached the ends thanks ryan koehler secs ucsc edu arun
comp.graphics	crimson was kubota announcement article edu kiki problem with inews gateway file keith baccki writes lee lee obiwan rsg hac com wrote did you say dec alpha upgrade path from replace upgrade path from vax alpha replace the system not totally fair you haven mentioned the decstation series think sgi made cisc mainframes they wouldn provide upgrade path onyx agree with you about the upgrade path but think was fair the original posting complained about sgi coming out with newer and better architectures and not having upgrade path from the older ones and that dec did statement merely attempted point out that all computer companies are constantly attempting improve their product market position share doing they eventually come point where they have new architecture and the only upgrade path replace the system and the particular system was complaining about was computer lifetimes relatively old statement felt dec history providing upgrades was not far superior than the industry average and that opinion sgi history better than dec and what dec doing with mips based decstation line are they going abandon for their alpha based line provide upgrade path and tfp and
comp.graphics	book kells correction aparantly mistyped the address for the ftp site which holds the images the correct address should jupiter csd unb rather than jupiter csd unb edu they are the directory pub library info jon williams university northern iowa
comp.graphics	job job opportunity seri systems engineering research institute kist korea institute science and technology looking for the resumes for the following position and need them the end june you are interested send resumes cad cae lab floor systems engineering research institute korea institute science and technology yousung eoeun dong daejon korea company systems engineering research institute title senior research scientist job description depth knowledge working knowledge computer aided design working knowledge computer graphics working knowledge virtual reality skills not required but desirable knowledge data modeling virtual reality experience understanding client server architecture requirement job location daejon korea contact info chul lim cad cae lab floor systems engineering research institute korea institute science and technology yousung eoeun dong daejon korea phone fax mail jxl
comp.graphics	chosing optimal colors for colormap looking for algorithm that would generate good cross section rgb colours given limited colour map size the problem writing application for the that may have most colors want use one colormap palette for the application but like contain even spread colours the visible spectrum could use rgb cube but the problem that lot those colours are almost identical the human eye does anyone know how can optimize choice colors
comp.graphics	siggraph srnelson speedsail eng sun com scott nelson writes dave mikelson almac dave mikelson writes does anyone know there open day for the public any time that not attend conferences but just browse around the exhibits are the exhibits etc just for fully registered attendees was free long you got siggraph before july for was similar free before july safe assume that the same kind deal will available this year just got advance program and the card the back for the exhibits plus program the exhibits plus admission number conference venues including special general session behind the scenes computer graphics film admission not free but nominal exhibits are open august get copy the advance program you can call the advance program itself good indication the excitement the conference register early and get for free sorry doesn work this year steve cunningham
comp.graphics	studio works changes guys like all people this group fans fractal and render favourite are fractint pov dstudio now listen ideas have just starting now able use dstudio quite well simulating full animation grand prix unfortanatly just some lap very interested about all kind prj and concerning about cars parts its motors wheel dxf are good enough does anyone have object give complete hard animation anyway any exchanges about object material project will very apreciate there ftp site where can find its looking for pov files too interested about cpu time comparision rendering images pov dstusio thank all email rosa ghost dsi unimi
comp.graphics	rumours about dave optimla aimla com dave ziedman writes still concept the software what sells and what will determine its success apparantly you dont keep the news was shown ces developers and others private showings over software licensees currently developing software for would say that lot more than just concept
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for article bcstec boeing com rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations also need contact info name address email you can find thanks please post your responses case others have same need bob carpenter been given the sites some excellent objects all sorts file formats here where they are host plaza aarnet edu location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr apr avalon chinalake navy mil host compute ncsu edu location mirrors wustl graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr mar avalon chinalake navy mil host wuarchive wustl edu location graphics graphics mirrors directory drwxr jan avalon chinalake navy mil see ajay
comp.graphics	about the various dxf format questions archie told the following sites holding documentation about dxf host nic funet last updated apr location pub csc graphics format file rwxrwxr dec dxf doc host rainbow cse nau edu last updated jun location graphics formats file mar dxf doc host ftp waseda last updated apr location pub data graphic file nov dxf doc org wunsch ham dtl joerg wunsch uriah sax anything can wrong joerg sax wutcd hadrian hrz chemnitz will joerg wunsch tcd dresden
comp.graphics	mpeg for windows mono needed sunsite unc edu pub multimedia utilities unix find mpeg play tar find for mono works best mpeg play dither threshold though you can use mpeg play dither mono face this not the best viewing situation also someone has made patch for mpeg play that gives two more mono modes mono and halftone they are jan pandonia canberra edu jan newmarch and the patch can found csc canberra edu under pub motif mpeg mono patch leon dent lcd umcc umich edu
comp.graphics	compiled version vogl library for has anybody compiled vogl graphics library for ibm need call from fortran but don have compile the sources thanks for any help martti toivakka mtoivakk abo
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap has anyone got multiverse work have built svr mips svr and sun sparcstation there seems many bugs the dogfight and dactyl simply nothing after fixing bug where variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah have name west street living blaze obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive the day berkshire england bort etry nfluence with large hammer
comp.graphics	micro world data bank looking for database called micro world data bank database with digital map information containing latitude longitude points said the public domain anyone knows place where can get preferably ftp gopher mailserver etc otherwise snail mail please let know you have yourself and are willing send the file drop line using with program called versamap charles culberson anyone knows another detailed database that can used with this program preferably would very interested replies mail please directly don read this group regularly there interest post summary course derk ederveen fidonet tel ederveen research ptt ederveen hlsdnl bitnet fax admd net prmd ptt research ptt research ederveen dnm wish was warrior every language that speak lou reed
comp.graphics	looking for bala vatti email address looking for the email address the author generic solution polygon clipping communication the acm july vol got information about the author follows bala vatti lcec river road hudson email vatti waynar lcec lockheed want get some related and detailed papers about the same topic from the author but failed send email the address any information appreciated thank you very much best regards young kunii lab dept information science faculty science university tokyo bunkyo hongo tokyo japan email young tokyo
comp.graphics	round elliptical dot screens when using photoshop there anyway get elliptical dot for the halftone screen rather than round dot printer would prefer elliptical dot but not sure how set sending from mac iici linotronic imagesetter and using photoshop make separations any help would greatly appreshed michael unscene michael maier computer artist anl glued the veiw email michael maier qmgate anl gov the milk amnesia phone michael maier
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement article hacgate scg hac com lee luke rsg hac com lee writes the original posting complained about sgi coming out with newer and better architectures and not having upgrade path from the older ones and that dec did that not what was complaining about nor did intend suggest that dec was any better than sgi let tell you about the lynx some day but prepared with large sedative you comment regarding dec was indicate that might open other vendors that supported opengl rather than deal further with sgi what annoyed about the fact that were led believe that would able upgrade multiprocessor version the crimson without the assistance fork lift truck also annoyed about being sold several personal irises previous site the understanding that architecture would around for while rather than being flushed now understand that sgi responsible its investors and has keep showing positive quarterly bottom line odd that found myself pressured least two occasions get the business the books just before the end the quarter but just little tired getting boned the process maybe because lab buys sgis onesies and twosies aren entitled peek under the covers the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and suspect that lot other labs and organizations doesn have load money spend computers every year can out buying new systems regular basis the boxes that buy now will have last pretty much through the entire grant period five years and some case beyond that means that need buy the best piece equipment that can when have the money not some product that was built paraphrase one previous poster words fill niche compete with some other vendor going looking this box for the next five years and every time look going think about sgi and how could have better spent money actually your money since supported almost entirely federal tax dollars now you have pardon while off and hiss and fume corner somewhere and think dark libelous thoughts spl steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla other car car too bumper strip seen
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac robert carpenter writes netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations also need contact info name address email you can find thanks please post your responses case others have same need bob carpenter the following extracted from sumex aim stanford edu should also the mirrors think there source for some applications that may have some bearing your project poke around the source directory never used this package nor know anyone who did but the price right hope this helps cheinan abstracts files thu apr pst directory info mac source binhex grafsys hqx date fri mar from christian steffen ove franz cfranz iiic ethz questions mac archive umich edu subject grafsys incoming directory grafsys short description follows programmers grafsys vers now available version mainly bugfix for think users this version now runs with think promise the docs now contain chapter for programmers how use the grafsys you have problems feel free contact the other change that removed the fastperftrig calls from the fpu version make run faster those you who don know what all this about read programmers grafsys what didn you always have this great game mind where you needed some way drawing three dimensional scenes didn you always want write this program that visualized the structure three dimensional molecules and didn the task writing your conversions routines keep you from actually doing well the answer any the above questions yes but what has with this package read grafsys think pascal library that provides you with simple routines for building saving loading resources and manipulating independent rotating around arbitrary achses translating and scaling three dimensional objects objects not just simple single line drawings grafsys supports full clipping animation and some primitive hidden line hidden surface drawing with simple commands from within your program grafsys also supports full eye control with both perspective and parallel projections you can understand word don worry this just showing off for those who know about the docs that come with will try explain what all means later grafsys provides powerful interface supply your own drawing routines with data you can use grafsys the transformations and your own routines the actual drawing note that grafsys also provides drawing routines you don have worry about that you don want grafsys comes two versions one for the and above processors the other version uses fixed point arithmetic and runs any mac both versions are source compatibel grafsys comes with extensive manual that teaches you the fundamentals graphics and how use the package demand big enough will convert the grafsys object class library however feelt that the way implemented now makes easier use for lot more people than the select oop guild grafsys free for any non commercial usage read the documentation enclosed enjoy christian franz
comp.graphics	fonts pov article wampyr uow edu wampyr uow edu coronado emmanuel abad says have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv was rayshade with stroked fonts appearing objects the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now was wondering possible the same pov thanks noel yes there are serveral programs which can convert font files the borland fonts objects consisting spheres cones etc used program forgot its name place but can look for which converted these borland fonts three different raytracers vivid pov and polyray which like more more flexibel faster use expressions etc the program has lot nice features interested give mail peter vanderveen visser wau department genetics agricultural university wageningen the netherlands
comp.graphics	vesa the speedstar using the vmode command all you need type vmode vesa the dos prompt vmode included with the speedstar have used the vesa mode for autodesk animator pro geoffrey hansen mindlink inumerable confusions and feeling despair invariably emerge periods great technological and cultural transition marshall mcluhan
comp.graphics	hot new software don have nor imagine nor real but old amiga user think you should take look also real for the amiga saw imagine the amiga for long time friend home and seen action bit movie riccione italy italian computer graphics contest many professionals using studio softimage for silicon graphics and imagine the amiga were very impressed the power this programs sorry lost the posting with full description features this great program for more informations give look comp sys amiga graphics representative activa international told that will out weeks for the amiga and that windows silicon indigo and unix version are under development ciao sergio sergio ruocco ruocco ghost dsi unimi via vittorio settimo milanese milano phone
comp.graphics	pcx article apr freenet carleton freenet carleton jason wiggle writes from freenet carleton jason wiggle subject pcx date wed apr gmt hello help please student turbo and graphics programming and having some problems finding algorithms and code teach how some stuff where there book code that will teach how read and write pcx dbf and gif files how access the extra ram paradise video board can paging the higher vga modes anybody got line good book help answer these question thanks very much send reply palm snycanva bitnet peace blessed stephen palm book that can somewhat recommend pratical image processing craig lindley published wiley addresses reading writing from pcx tiff files image acquisition manipulation and storage and has source code the book the source primarily written turbo and naturally has conversion possibilities have converted some quick naturally the code has some problems the book usuall typos syntax etc are problems can good learning experience for someone who studying there also companion disk with source available for order and overall the book not bad acquired the book waldensoftware
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library what hardware plan run workstation cost level run time licensing needs bob robert schmitt applied derivatives technology lehman brothers rschmitt shearson com
comp.graphics	need help with mitsubishi image printer our group recently bought mitsubishi video printer and could use some help with bought this thing because has parallel data input addition the usual video signal inputs and claimed print gray level images however the manual that came with only describes how format the parallel data print and bit pixel images after some initial problems with the parallel interface now have this thing running from parallel port hewlett packard workstation and can print and bit pixel images just fine called the mitsubishi people and asked about the level claim and they said that was only available when used with the video signal inputs this was not mentioned the sales literature however they did say the can bit pixel level images parallel mode but they didn have any information about how program and they would call japan etc frankly find hard believe that this thing can bit pixel images from the video source can store bits pixel the memory not like memory that expensive any more anybody has any information getting bit pixel even bit pixel images out this thing would greatly appreciate your sending thanks allan weber signal image processing institute university southern california weber sipi usc edu
comp.graphics	need graph display edit looking for program that capable displaying graph with nodes and links and with the possibility edit interactively the graph add one node change one link etc actually very simple program would all need put some boxes the nodes pane and able manipulate them with the mouse move add delete boxes does anyone know such program available thanks for any help loris renggli phone swiss federal institute technology fax math dept lausanne switzerland mail renggli masg epfl
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cpu doesn help much either understand supposedly variation running something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup ricardo the animation playback which lawrence was referring earlier post plain old quicktime with the compact video codec seen digitized video some apple early commercials precise running centris about fps very nicely bit color depth would expect that using the same algorithm risc processor should able approach full screen full motion animation though you implied the processor will taxed more with highly dynamic material sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university north texas new bands info server fax box seanmac acs unt edu mail denton mcmains unt edu
comp.graphics	xga info has anyone more info about the xga chipset funcs truecolor resolutions any boards with xga out yet thanks rainer rainer leberle rleberle sparc cstp umkc edu university kansas city new mail from clinton whitehouse gov subject specified
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance cptully med unc edu christopher tully pathology writes why tight for that matter tiff out now why not gripe about its problems also its important you volunteer help define critique the spec hear hear finally little numerology backwards and tiff bit image format really thought that the reason was was that really but written that intel chips you could get the proper value pete help stomp out the endian wars break some eggs their sides peter mueller thebishop when person commits violation and sins highlndr cso uiuc edu unintentionally regard any the pmueller mrcnext cso uiuc edu lord holy things bring the lord penalty ram from the flock
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement comment regarding dec was indicate that might open other vendors that supported opengl rather than deal further with sgi opengl graphics programming library and such great portable interface for the development interactive graphics applications not however indicator performance that will vary strongly from machine machine and vendor vendor sgi committed high performance interactive graphics systems and software tools opengl means that you can port easily from sgi other platforms there guarantee that your performance would comparable what annoyed about the fact that were led believe that would able upgrade multiprocessor version the crimson without the assistance fork lift truck your sales representative truly mislead you then you should have valid grievance against which you should carry your local sgi sales management team feel free contact the local branch manager understand that repeat sales come from satisfied customers give shot also annoyed about being sold several personal irises previous site the understanding that architecture would around for while rather than being flushed one the previous posts stated the personal iris was introduced and grew include the and clock rates sped over time rule thumb sgi platforms live for about years this was true the motorola based series the the professional series the early the power series parallel systems individual cpu subsystems running particular clock rate usually live for about years new graphics architectures the high end vgx realityengine are released every months years these are the facts life look these machines they become almost archaic after four years and have come out with new platform like indigo onyx challenge which has higher bus bandwidths faster cpus faster graphics and and larger disk capacities don become uncompetitive from the user perspective you have buy machine that meets your current needs and makes economic sense today you can wait buy but you need guaranteed upgrade path for the machine ask the sales rep for one writing feasible they should able that some our upgrade paths have specific programs associated with them such the performance protection program for older based power series multiprocessing systems which allowed purchasers those systems obtain guaranteed upgrade price for moving the new onyx challenge based bit multiprocessor systems now understand that sgi responsible its investors and has keep showing positive quarterly bottom line odd that found myself pressured least two occasions get the business the books just before the end the quarter but just little tired getting boned the process that happening becausing misunderstandings mis communication not because sgi directly attempting annoy our customer base maybe because lab buys sgis onesies and twosies aren entitled peek under the covers the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and suspect that lot other labs and organizations doesn have load money spend computers every year can out buying new systems regular basis most sgi customers are onesy twosey types but regardless rarely give great deal notice when are about introduce new system because again like previous post stated pre announced and the schedule slipped would mess our potential customers schedules when they were counting the availability the new systems particular date and would also look awfully bad both our investors and the financial analysts who watch most carefully see are meeting our commitments the boxes that buy now will have last pretty much through the entire grant period five years and some case beyond that means that need buy the best piece equipment that can when have the money not some product that was built paraphrase one previous poster words fill niche compete with some other vendor going looking this box for the next five years and every time look going think about sgi and how could have better spent money actually your money since supported almost entirely federal tax dollars five years awfully long time computer years new processor technologies are arriving every years making year old computer least and probably generations behind the times the competitive nature the market demanding that rate development your timing really years between purchases you have accept the limited viability whatever architecture you buy into from any vendor there are some realities about the computer biz that all have live with but keeping customers happy the most important don give know josh joshua mogal product manager advanced graphics division advanced graphics systems silicon graphics inc market manager north shoreline blvd virtual reality mountain view interactive entertainment tel fax mail mogal sgi com
comp.graphics	rendering software for multi processor computer hello searching for rendering software which has been developed specifically take advantage multi processor computer systems any pointers such software would greatly appreciated thanks billy carter software engineering section southwest research institute wcarter swri edu
comp.graphics	wanted map the world type gifs can anyone direct map type gifs interesting cartography and would find these gifs useful tia lee van dyke lvandyke balboa eng uci edu uucp infotec infotec com lee sunkist west sun com
comp.graphics	pov having trouble bump mapping gif sphere hello been trying bump map gif onto sphere for while and can seem get work image mapping works but not bump mapping here simple file was working with could some kind soul tell whats wrong with this include colors inc include shapes inc include textures inc camera location direction right look object light source color white object sphere texture bump map gif surf gif note surf gif plasma fractal from fractint that using the landscape palette map thanks advance daniel daniel kennett dkennett sfu our minds are finite and yet even those circumstances finitude are surrounded possibilities that are infinite and the purpose human life grasp much can out that infinitude alfred north whitehead
comp.graphics	point intersection lines can anybody suggest robust algorithms code for computing the point intersection lines plane the data has outliers and hence simple least squares technique does not seem provide satifactory results please respond mail and will post the summary the newsgroups there sufficient interest thanks raj talluri member technical staff image understanding branch texas instruments central research labs dallas texas talluri csc com
comp.graphics	program included edge detection algorithms this program doesn detect edges with compass operators and laplacian operator should output raw grey scale images with edges the output doesn look like edges all novicee terms how correct the errors any improvements are welcome even accept your corrected code convolve the input image with digital gaussian remove noise will get improvement with the laplacian types edge detection include stdio include math define imagewidth define imageheight unsigned char input image imageheight imagewidth unsigned char angles wanted imageheight imagewidth unsigned char magnitude image imageheight imagewidth int laplace int compass int compass int compass int compass int compass int compass int compass int compass void compass row col int row col int value int rows cols int compass compass compass compass int compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass compass for rows rows rows for cols cols cols row rows col cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass int input image row rows col cols compass rows cols compass compass value compass else value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass value compass magnitude image row col char value void laplace row col int row col int rows cols magnitude image row col for rows rows rows for cols cols cols row rows col cols magnitude image row col char int magnitude image row col int input image row rows col cols laplace rows cols main file original image file laplace mag laplace mag laplace mag file compass mag int row col algo count original image fopen input image laplace mag fopen laplace magnitude compass mag fopen compass magnitude fread unsigned char input image sizeof unsigned char imageheight imagewidth original image for algo count algo count algo count for row row imageheight row for col col imagewidth col algo count laplace row col else compass row col algo count fwrite magnitude image sizeof char imageheight imagewidth laplace mag else fwrite magnitude image sizeof char imageheight imagewidth compass mag for lot music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file dev audio library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when doubt ask xarchie xgopher xwais
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap steve the author multiverse feel had better respond your mailnote questioning whether anyone had managed compile this software the quick answer yes the long answer yes but few have had few problems with their platforms not all unix are the same you know far many bugs would probably more useful everyone including you you were bit more explicit platforms has succesfully compiled and run are dec ultrix sun solaris possible the main problem that don have access other platforms than the there are portability problems then the only way hear about them people letting know and giving clue how fix far the software not doing anything you really think would bother releasing that was the case perhaps you didn read the few docs that are supplied the dogfight world made clients only you there your own then you not going see anything the dactyl world has quite lot scenary you don see anything there then this definitely problem one final word you not interested don bother with you are interested then please remember that not asking for any money why not try little patience and constructive criticism maybe that will get results robert robert acsc com
comp.graphics	hot new software don think speed has been determined since has never run intel chips but the amiga motorola chips was one the fastest true ray tracers don think impulse would port over and not take speed into consideration terms features and learning curve all that you stated for also true for imagine and lots more but have admit that after years use the amiga the learning curve very steep this due only the manual realy bad however there lot after market support for this product including regular tips articles many magazines such avid and great book steve worley called understanding imagine this book not just recommened must think important consideration should price for not including tool packages under for imagine complete
comp.graphics	cylinder and ray sketch rotate cylinder axis axis intersect projection line with projected cylinder similar but easier than sphere intersection result intersection one intersection two intersections parameterized along line and now look and compute intersections line with top and bottom planes cylinder this gives and the interval intersection then the bit the line from intersect details left exercise for the reader spencer thomas info tech and networking cfob genome informatician univ michigan ann arbor spencer thomas med umich edu fax
comp.graphics	sphere from points boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution thanks bolson university washington cardiovascular research bolson washington edu preferred bolson max bitnet bolson milton washington edu you must
comp.graphics	announce ivan sutherland speak harvard the harvard computer society pleased announce its third lecture the spring ivan sutherland the father computer graphics and innovator microprocessing will speaking harvard university tuesday april aiken computations building room the title his talk logical effort and the conflict over the control information cookies and tea will served the aiken lobby admissions free and all are welcome aiken located north the science center near the law school for more information send mail eekim husc harvard edu the lecture will videotaped and tape will made available thanks eugene kim give place stand and will internet eekim husc harvard edu move the earth archimedes
comp.graphics	windows imagine has anyone who has ordered the new version imagine actually recieved yet just about ready order but reading posts about people still awaiting delivery are making little paranoid has anyone actually held this piece software their own hands later jim nobles
comp.graphics	vga mode routines available there made vga mode graphics library available via ftp originally wrote the routines kind exercise for myself but perhaps someone here will find them useful they are certainly useable they are but are missing some higher level functionality they intended more intro mode programming starting point the library assumes processor but trivial modify for enough people ask make the mods and post different version the routines are written assembly tasm and are callable from they are fairly simple but found them very fast for purposes anyway routines are included enter and exit mode define virtual screen put and get pixels put pixmap rectangular image with transparent spots put sprite image with see thru areas copy areas the virtual screen into video memory etc also included simple routine draw line well routine load color gif image into buffer also wrote quick dirty demo program that bounces bunch sprites around behind three windows the whole package available spang camosun pub dos vgl zip zipped with pkzip completely the public domain far concerned with whatever you like however nice get credit where due and maybe mail telling you like you don like don bother mark morley camosun
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac searched the mich archives fairly thoroughly for graphics packages always thought mirror sumex aim stanford edu was wrong look into grafsys does sound interesting thanks cheinan bobc
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library sorry about not mentioning platform original post was mac programmer and then decided post here comp graphics like the software run primarily mac either object pascal think mpw but port windows later package that runs mac and has windows version would ideal looking for package that has low upfront costs and reasonable licensing costs course bobc
comp.graphics	sphere from points article qkgbuinns shelley washington edu bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution wouldn this require hyper sphere space points over specifies sphere far can see unless that you can prove that point exists space that equi distant from the points and this may not necessarily happen correct wrong which quite possibly steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi visiting computer graphics researcher phone hitachi central research lab tokyo fax
comp.graphics	sphere from points bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution not bad question don have any refs that list this algorithm either but thinking about bit shouldn too hard take three the points and find the plane they define well the circle that they lie you say you have this algorithm already find the center this circle the line passing through this center perpendicular the plane the three points passes through the center the sphere repeat with the unused point and two the original points this gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere origin their interection the center the sphere the radius easy compute just the distance from the center any the original points leave the math you but this workable algorithm alternate method would take pairs points the plane formed the perpendicular bisector each line segment pair also contains the center the sphere three pairs will form three planes intersecting point this might easier implement steve spworley netcom com
comp.graphics	rayshade dxf rib etc strata mac user who wants use some the rayshade models built using macrayshade rayshade with stratavision since stratavision can import many different model files thought this would cinch but haven been able find simple translator that will work the mac any ideas stratavision should able import dxf minicad super swivel professional out the box and rib igs with externals also anyone knows any other translator externals available for stratavision esp rayshade please mail btw going send mail the rayshade usrs mailing list tomorrow misplaced the address but since most users rayshade not seem operate with macs not getting hopes thanks advance patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
comp.graphics	siggraph course notes looking for copy the following siggraph publication gomez comments event driven annimation siggraph course notes anyone knows location where can obtain copy these notes would appreciate they could let know thanks dkusswur falcon depaul edu
comp.graphics	cobra video card help does anyone out there net land have any information the cobra card the sticker the end the card reads model cobra bios cobra havn been able find anything about from anyone you have any information how get hold the company which produces the card know where any drivers are for please let know far can tell cga card that taking bit isa slots but when enable the test patterns displays much more than the usualy cga colors least from what can count thanks internet jele eis calstate edu bbs mirage gilligan tsoft net bbs mirage tsoft bay org mirage thetech com uucp apple com tsoft bbs mirage computer and video imaging major
comp.graphics	externel processes for studio all does anybody have the source code the externel processes that comes with studio and mabe som kind doc for writing the processes your self lars author lars jorgensen syntax bbs bad syntax bbs denmark golded
comp.graphics	text recognition software availability article ihqm mentor purdue edu nova purdue edu allen writes one more time there any free ocr software out there ask this question periodically and haven found anything this the last time don find anything going write some myself post here email you have any leads suggestions else just sit back and wait for not sure this free shareware but you can try look wsmrsimtel army mil directory msdos deskpub file ocr zip from the file simibm lst ocr zip optical character recognition for scanners hope this helps roman valo valo cvt stuba slovak technical university bratislava slovakia
comp.graphics	sphere from points article qkgbuinns shelley washington edu bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution off the top head might try given find center sphere determined dist radius the same distance from our four points dist dist dist dist course can square the whole thing get rid square roots distsq distsq distsq distsq plug the variables into the distance formula simplify and the and terms cancel out leaving you with three linearly independent equations and three unknowns solve using your favorite method all the best john john eickemeyer the lord god subtle information technology institute but malicious not national computer board singapore email johne iti gov albert einstein
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup the variation the that was done few years ago the european partners motorola has some integrated controllers and half mmu but otherwise think the same the and were burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.graphics	avi file format would someone please email the new avi file format sure that many people would like know what exactly thank you mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu fax royal melbourne institute technology department communication and electronic engineering box melbourne victoria australia mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu fax royal melbourne institute technology department communication and electronic engineering box melbourne victoria australia
comp.graphics	vga graphics mode dutc student umn edu writes article bmp news cis umn edu some vesa bios support this mode and any vga should able support this colors since only requires bytes vesa tsr supports this the only vesa mode card can support due restrictions paradise not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp ahh possibly you punched the wrong numbers your calculator color modes take byte per pixel time which exact only takes but don think bios mode wouldn bet that all vga cards can that either vga card has bet can both and that definition svga though not very high svga yes did punch the wrong numbers working too many late nites intended stating bytes not the bios just vesa tsr not responsible for anything say just opinion robert kyanko rob rjck uucp
comp.graphics	cview answers very kind soul has mailed this reply for the bugs cview since isn the position post this himself asked post for him but leave his name out here comes cview has quite number bugs the one you mention perhaps the most annoying but not the most dangerous far can determine has with the temp files that cview creates cview gives the user control over where places its temp files just places them its current directory the problem you mention occurs far can tell when runs out disk space for its temp files seems cview doesn check properly for this situation cview decodes jpeg seems write out temp file with all the pixel data with bit colour information then for bit displays does the dithering again writing another file with the bit colour information while writing this second file also writes the data your colour card then when does the last chunk bit data recopies all the data from the bit file your screen again does this last recopy operation for its fit screen feature even when this feature not enabled the result this process the following runs out disk space when writing the first bit file all you ever see much data has room for and the last bit data simply repeated over and over again because cview never realizes the disk has filled and disk writes reads aren performed has enough room for the bit data but runs out room for the bit data you see almost all the picture does the dithering and writes the screen card however then when finishes the dithering and recopies the data from the bit file screen for whatever reason does this one again just gets repetition the last chunk data for which there was room the disk this just guess but probably fairly accurate least the general idea track think although have probably made errors details about file etc the way around this course clear sufficient disk space the temp files for large jpeg and bigger can very large meg meg some the largest have needed excess meg free disk space cview has much more serious bug you are trying display file from floppy and you change floppies while cview has some temp file open the floppy then cview certain circumstances will write the directory and fat table can remember for the removed floppy onto the newly inserted floppy thus corruptimg the new floppy very serious possibly unrevcoverable way careful incredibly poor programming for program this the other hand when choosing files the open files menu cview insists doing few disk reads every time one moves the lighter square incredibly annoying when could them all once when gets the directory info and really how much effort does take sort directory listing with much thanks the originator this article rene walter renew stack urc tue will drown tears sorrow there hope for tomorrow will this world ever get better can all just live together don wanna live strife just wanna live life deserve have future the good girls future
comp.graphics	alt raytrace potential group yes please create the group alt raytrace soon hooked pov geez like don have anything better dave letterman
comp.graphics	shadow optical raytracing package everyone looking for some software called shadow far know its simple raytracer used the visualization synchrotron beam lines now have old version the program here but unfortunately don have any documentation anyone knows where can get some docs maybe newer version the program even another program that does the same sort thing would love hear from you think shadow was written cerrina anyone any ideas thanks gary serc daresbury lab
comp.graphics	character recognition there any program available free otherwise for taking tiff gif some other bitmapped file and turning parts into ascii characters dos platform independent programs possible thanks
comp.graphics	need good concave convex polygon algorithm need good concave convex polygon conversion routine tried couple without much luck please mail responses and will post summary any replies thank you richard stoakley rws uvacs virginia edu
comp.graphics	automatic layout state diagrams hoping someone out there will able help our computer science project group are doing computer science honours and our project graphical simulator for finite state automata basically the program must draw diagram fsa from textual grammar showing circles for states and labeled arc between the problem working out the best way layout the states and draw the arc between that few arc possible cross each other anyone has any suggestions algorithms bug free ready compile code that might help would much appreciated thanks advance gregory
comp.graphics	how compensate for photographic viewpoint and distortion all out there have this problem and not certain solving the correct way was wondering anyone can shed light this point the right place look have ray imaging camera and metallic tube with cylindrical hole passing through right angle the tube axis image ray source screen metallic tube know source screen centre distance radius the tube radius the hole some calculations based the image the hole the screen however the calculations are mathematically highly complex and must assume that the object hole projects image resembling ellipse the tube not parallel the screen the centre the screen however unlikely that the object placed conveniently firstly must transform the major and minor axis the ellipse cannot know what the angle between the tube and screen have assume that they are parallel the transformation how this transformation secondly there distortion the image due the screen being planar the source screen distance increases move away from the centre the screen how can compensate the ellipse axis for this image distortion please can anyone give few pointers here how transform the image appears would were the centre the screen and how deal with distortion due the shape the screen appreciate any help either posted emailed thanks advance simon simon marshall dept computer science university hull hull football isn about life and death more important than that bill email marshall hull phone fax shankley
comp.graphics	sphere from points article hcrlgw crl hitachi steve hcrlgw steven collins writes article qkgbuinns shelley washington edu bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution wouldn this require hyper sphere space points over specifies sphere far can see unless that you can prove that point exists space that equi distant from the points and this may not necessarily happen correct wrong which quite possibly steve sorry call the four points and any three them must non collinear otherwise all three could not lie the surface sphere and all four must not coplaner otherwise either they cannot all lie sphere they define infinity them and define circle the perpendicular bisectors and meet point say which the centre this circle this circle must lie the surface the desired sphere consider the normal the plane abc passing through all points this normal are equidistant from and and its circle fact diameter the desired sphere take the plane containing this normal and lies the normal any plane containing the normal will this plane right angles the abc one let the point there are normally two them the circumference the abc circle which lies this plane need point the normal such that but the intersection the perpendicular bisector and the normal such point and exists since not the plane abc and not right angles the normal algorithm the sphere well defined check that and are not coincident failure find the line and check that does not lie failure find the plane abc and check that does not lie failure yes find its centre find the perpendicular bisectors and find their point intersection find the normal the plane abc passing through line find the plane containing and find the point the abc circle this plane lies take find the perpendicular bisector line find the point intersection and the centre the desired sphere pictures the plane abc right angles abc the plane containing and line numerically then will very close relative the radius the abc circle and subject error best choose that the least and larger than for any other choice bob douglas computing services university oxford internet bob oxford address banbury road oxford telephone
comp.graphics	polygon orientation dxf writing program convert dxf files database format used graphics program written program stores the points polygon ccw order used concepts little and seems that the points are stored the order they are drawn does the dxf format have way indicating which order the points are stored ccw its easy enough convert but don know which way they are stored dont know which direction the polygon should visible from dxf doesn handle this can anyone recommend workaround the best can think create two polygons for each one the dxf file one stored and the other ccw but that doubles the number polygons and decreases speed thanks advance for any help patrice hugo hydra unm edu
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they have been using iterated systems compression board compress pathology images and are getting ratios without too much loss quality taking about mins per image compress mhz but decompression almost real time software alone
comp.graphics	book found graphics covlir crockett its rpi edu locks writes hello happened spot excellent book bookstore about days ago though and assembly teaches you the assembly goes along you like and have assembler experience don worry has almost everything that wanted know and has working code rod covlin just bought copy can disagree that very good book but unfortunately was looking for the same graphics feature described this book but not mode easy accomodate all the pixel descriptor color attributes those modes into afffff but not which what interested haven finish the book but affraid the author didn talk much about this mode other svga modes anyone out there know any good book dealing with fast svga graphics manupulation scrolling repainting all other good stuff please send mail programming guide svga card also welcome thanks advance tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
comp.graphics	speedstar how program the truecolor mode hello purchased new with noname graphics card installed which obviously speedstar compatible its name vga truecolor accompanied with some drivers and the utilities vmode xmode and least one more mode well some drivers for lotus windows etc only one the drivers told provide the truecolor mode namely the windows driver nowhere else except the any pointer the truecolor mode some articles this group about the speedstar and some other facts made believe that card compatible that one does anybody out there know how this mode can adjusted how can write driver which allows have millions colors with resolution with interlaced greetings wolfgang
comp.graphics	info needed contour plotting everyone spend the money before goes away time here florida and need find some based software that will contour plotting with irregular boundaries profile soil system with pond superimposed given surfer pond trial run but interpolates contours out into the pond and creates artifacts the borders soil anyone out there knows product appreciate hearing about there enough response post summary thanks and now back lurking steve bloom soil water science sab gnv ifas ufl edu
comp.graphics	vesa standard vga svga programming have few question about graphics programming vga svga how vesa standard works any documentation for vesa standard higher resolution than vga mode where the video memory affff longer sufficient hold all info what the trick fast image manipulation heard about memory mapping video memory bank switching but know nothing how implemented any advice anyone interest mode should this mode called svga mode what the technique for fast image scrolling for the above mode how deal with different svga cards your guidance books any other sources the above questions would greatly appreciated please send mail thanks advance tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu tiang foo tiang uokmax ecn uoknor edu
comp.graphics	sphere from points from bolson carson washington edu edward bolson given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that cnter and radius exactly fitting those points the equation the sphere through the points when this determininant expanded its first column you get the equation the form you need the center and radius jyst divide through cannot zero the given points form non degenerate tetrahedron and complete the square and obtain rcb slacvm slac stanford edu bob beach
comp.graphics	vesa the speedstar need vesa driver for the diamond speedstar that works tried several and none work for the hicolor modes john cormack cormackj access digex com
comp.graphics	delaunay triangulation article lsk inn caspian usc edu zyeh caspian usc edu zhenghao yeh writes does anybody know what delaunay triangulation there any reference useful for creating objects yes what the advantage there vast literature delaunay triangulations literally hundreds papers program even provided with every copy mathematica nowadays you might look this you are interested using for creating objects article boissonnat author boissonnat title geometric structures for three dimensional shape representation journal acm transactions graphics month october year volume number pages
comp.graphics	rumours about the does exist number was licensed philips make their own variant this chip includes extra featurfes such more ports bus making more microcontroller like because the confusion with numbering philips other products the range with the core have been given differend numbers like pcf pcd something
comp.graphics	gif bmp not sure this the correct place ask this question not please forgive and point the right direction does anybody know program that converts gif files bmp files and where can ftp from any help would greatly appreciated please respond via mail not read this group very often thanks scott
comp.graphics	point within polygon article apr bull scrowe hemel bull writes looking for algorithm determine given point bound polygon does anyone have any such code reference book containing information the subject regards simon function puntbinnenpolygoon auteur cornelis wessels datum omschrijving bepaalt aangeboden vector binnen rand van het polygoon valt wijzigingen clibstatus puntbinnenpolygoon polygoon vector vector index aantal snijpunten aantal snijpunten geefpolygoonlengte geefpolygoonrandpunt for geefpolygoonrandpunt interpoleerlineair return clibsucces else aantal snijpunten kopieervector aantal snijpunten return cliberbuiten else return clibsucces cornelis wessels krommenoord rotterdam the netherlands kewe bskewe atr bso
comp.graphics	any graphics packages available for aix apr sun res utc com mark sun res utc com mark stucky writes qninniag tahko lpr carel ari suutari ari tahko lpr carel wrote does anybody know there are any good graphics packages available for ibm aix looking for something like dec gks hewlett packards starbase both which have reasonably good support for different output devices like plotters terminals etc try graphigs from ibm excellent package doug doug egan not what you got lockheed engineering and sciences what you give houston tesla email egan blkbox com
comp.graphics	vesa standard vga svga programming how vesa standard works any documentation for vesa standard the vesa standard can requested from vesa vesa north first street suite san jose ask for the vesa vbe and super vga programming starndards vesa also defines local bus and other standards the vesa standard only addresses ways which application can find out info and capabilities specific super vga implementation and control the video mode selection and video memory access you still have set your own pixels higher resolution than vga mode where the video memory affff longer sufficient hold all info what the trick fast image manipulation heard about memory mapping video memory bank switching but know nothing how implemented any advice anyone vesa defines window that used access video memory this window anchored the spot where you want write and then you can write far the window takes you usually windows have granularities you can just anchor them anywhere also some implementations allow two windows interest mode should this mode called svga mode what the technique for fast image scrolling for the above mode how deal with different svga cards this vesa mode there set display start function that might useful for scrolling your guidance books any other sources the above questions would greatly appreciated please send mail your best bet write vesa for the info there have also been announcements this group vesa software karl schultz schultz vnet ibm com these statements opinions are not necessarily those ibm
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes netters building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations really not that hard there are books out there which explain everything and the basic functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy wrote program few weeks witht help book and would happy give you source also quickdraw has lot functions built and think pascal can access them and would expect that think could well you can find out how use the quickdraw graphics library would excellent choice since has lot stuff and built into the mac should fast libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat define myself tsa cellar org
comp.graphics	questions about plane eqn method hidden surface removal what are the main advantages this method have seen described and the algiorithm seems little bit long developed own method which requires that the points counter clockwise order and returns whether you are looking the back the front similar the plane eqn method uses few calculations however basically several comparisons the only disadvantage see that must done after the transformation from view coordinates coordinates display the screen which means that little more calculation isneeded beforehand method basically figures out whether the points that will appear the screen are clockwise counterclockwise when looking the back something the points occur opposite direction from the front merely figuring out which way the points you can tell whether you are looking the back front polygon has anyone heard this method before simple doubt the first think libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat define myself tsa cellar org
comp.graphics	reprints have few reprints left chapters from book visions the future these include reprints chapters probably interest readers this forum including current techniques and development computer art franz szabo forging career sculptor from career computer programmer stewart dickson fractals and genetics the future joel jeffrey happy send out free reprints researchers for scholarly purposes until the reprints run out just send your name and address thanks cliff cliff watson ibm com
comp.graphics	church related graphics looking for some good quality graphics files which are suitable for use church related presentations prefer vector but anything would helpful you know bulletin boards which have collections this nature commercial products please inform email haston utkvx utk edu wayne haston
comp.graphics	fastest line circle drawing routines help all short looking for very fast assembly code for line circle drawing svga graphics complete thinking simple but fast molecular graphics program write clones ball and stick type reasons programs that seen are far too slow for this purpose platform class machine vga graphics speed important color for non rendering purpose enough may stay for speed reason hope the code would generic enough for different svga cards own card based trident not vesa what looking for fast very fast routines draw lines circles simple shapes above mentioned svga resolutions presumably assembly languagine yes very fast please related codes help rotating zooming animating the drawings screen drawings for beginning would lines circles mainly think text else later you know the way molecular graphics rotates zooms molecule and any other codes preferentially that can help the project final remarks non profit expected become share free ware any help appreciated thanks frankie lau tammy harvard edu pls also email may miss reply post
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cpu doesn help much either understand supposedly variation running something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup sean the exists ricardo the animation playback which lawrence was referring earlier post plain old quicktime with the compact video codec seen digitized video some apple early commercials precise running centris about fps very nicely bit color depth would expect that using the same algorithm risc processor should able approach full screen full motion animation though you implied the processor will taxed more with highly dynamic material sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university north texas new bands info server fax box seanmac acs unt edu mail denton mcmains unt edu sean don want get into mini war what going say but have little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming the centris you see why please flames reserve those for was chicago the last consumer electronics show and apple had booth there walked and they were showing real time video capture using radious supermac card digitize and make right the spot quicktime movies think the quicktime they were using was the old one they digitized guy talking there something played back quite nicely and real time the guy then expanded the window resized think and the frame rate decreased enough notice that wasn fps about fps anymore dropped like fps then increased just bit more and dropped fps then asked him what mac was using was using quadra don know what model and was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back the same speed even lcii well spoiled his claim say since quadra mac was having little bit trouble and this wasn even from the hardisk this was from memory could that you saw either newer version quicktime some hardware assisted centris another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind accelerator don misunderstand just want clarify this but for the sake the posting about computer doing not can claim tad more with overscan being done colors computer not from the hardisk fps with scala but agree consider mpeg stuff think multimedia consumer low priced box has lot market just think would make longer raist new owner colors from bit palette love new low fat sig don mail don have valid address nor can send mail
comp.graphics	oak driver needed studio looking for the studio driver for the oak card with ram this would greatly and mean that appreciated maybe should have just gotten more well know card thanks seth acpub duke edu
comp.graphics	manipulating hexagonal grid lets say youve got grid hexagons that etc for total rows down that means there are hexagons the line lined underneath the second line lined underneath the third line lined under neath the fourht the problem given the center any arbritrary hexagon and line with and arbritrary slope which hexagons does that line cross through the line doesn necessarily have cross through the center other hexagon can even tangent and count any helpers friend was baffeled when trying figure this mohammad khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail mkhan nyx edu
comp.graphics	gif bmp scott zabolotzky saz hook corp mot com wrote not sure this the correct place ask this question not please forgive and point the right direction does anybody know program that converts gif files bmp files and where can ftp from any help would greatly appreciated please respond via mail not read this group very often thanks scott sorry scott you post here you can read here there shareware program available via anonymous ftp that will suit your needs you find oak oakland edu the subdirectory pub msdos graphics the file called grfwk zip tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	looking for good book for beginners wanted know any you out there can recommend good book about graphics still and animated and vga svga thanks advance mohammad khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail mkhan nyx edu
comp.graphics	need some graphics help help trying program vga got working with pascal with the following routines for mode got vesa compatable trident meg and need program mode don care how many colors could someone take this code and help write new procedures replace them that work that great thanks here the code currently have for mode procedure graphmode begin videomode asm mov mov int end end videomode procedure plotpoint integer begin mem end david
comp.graphics	what reverse negative video interested simulating reverse negative color video mathematically what the transform simple reversal the hue value the hsv color space manipulation the yuv color space how related solarization you want see something truly wild turn the reverse video effect camcorder equipped and point the monitor this creates chaotic dynamical system whose phase space continuous along rotation zoom focus etc very very surprising and lovely like write simulation this effect without analog grunge thanks for any info you may have please mail any info post summary thanks lance norskog thinman netcom com data not information not knowledge not wisdom
comp.graphics	need good concave convex polygon algorithm article juyz aly murdoch acc virginia edu rws uvacs virginia edu richard stoakley writes need good concave convex polygon conversion routine tried couple without much luck please mail responses and will post summary any replies thank you richard stoakley rws uvacs virginia edu the problem not precisely defined above but you need find the smallest convex polygon that encloses given polygon then you are seeking the convex hull your original polygon there are two ways this use somewhat tricky but now well examined linear time algorithm that exploits the polygon boundary just feed the vertices the original polygon convex hull routine and accept log both methods are discussed preparata and shamos for example
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes can you please offer some recommendations really not that hard there are books out there which explain everything and the basic functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy wrote program few weeks witht help book and would happy give you source think wanted avoid reinventing the wheel would suggest that you take your code and submit comp sys mac binaries distributed including the ftp sites many folks myself included would enjoy the extra code also quickdraw has lot functions built and think pascal can access them and would expect that think could well you can find out how use the quickdraw graphics library would excellent choice since has lot stuff and built into the mac should fast just clarify the routines that are mentioned various places the mac are libray not the rom the mac few years ago before knew anything about implementing graphics came across demo the apple grafsys library and actually did lot however quite limited the sense that low level library your code still has plot individual points draw each line etc nauseum has nothing for example where you can handle objects other things consider when talking about apple old grafsys library unsupported never was and plans exist the future undocumented unless you call header files documentation one knows something about graphics you could probably figure out but assume there better software available that gives better output and the same time programmatically nicer easier program just tax brent
comp.graphics	grayscale printer are interested purchasing grayscale printer that offers good resoltuion for grayscale medical images can anybody give some recommendations these products the market particular those under thank for the advice
comp.graphics	wingcommanderii graphics was wondering anyone knows where can get more information about the graphics the wingcommander series and the realspace system they use think really awesome and wouldn mind being able use similar features programs thanks advance daemon
comp.graphics	vision site and email unavailable used the information provided the recent resource listings and tried ftp ccu aukland ftp mac architec vision facet and received unknown host message mail paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland bounces with basically the same problem where rick rick pavek never ask droid outdo its program kuryakin bcstec boeing com seattle wastes your time and annoys the droid
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april plotting packages gnuplot one the best and plotting packages with online help command line driven interactive function plotting utility for unix msdos amiga archimedes and vms platforms least freely distributed supports many terminals plotters and printers and easily extensible include new devices was posted comp sources misc version plus patches you can practically find everywhere use archie find site near you the comp graphics gnuplot newsgroup devoted discussion gnuplot xvgr and xmgr ace xmgr plotting tool for unix workstations using openwindows there xview version called xvgr for suns collectively these tools are known ace compiling xmgr requires the motif toolkit version and xmgr will not compile under motif check ftp ccalmr ogi edu ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar motif version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar xview version comments suggestions bug reports paul turner pturner amb ese ogi edu mail fails try pturner ese ogi edu due time constraints replies will few and far between robot release and limited based xview written fortran you need fortran compiler the translator mainly tested sun less decstations check ftp astro psu edu pub astrod plotting library this library fortran callable routines sunspot ceee nist gov xgobi being developed bellcore and its speciality are multidimensional data sets analysis and exploration you can call from the language also and works client using the athena widget set with ascii terminal distributed free charge from statlib cmu get via mail send email statlib temper stat cmu edu and the body area the message put the line send xgobi from general you want pick via ftp connect lib stat cmu edu log statlib and use your mail address your password then type general mget xgobi warning about sources large postscript manual read the relevant readme decide whether you need not pgplot runs vax vms and supposedly unix set fortran routines freely available though copyrighted and requiring nominal fee that includes contour plots and support for various devices including contact tjp deimos caltech edu ggraph host shorty wisc edu pub ggraph tar unknown more details epigraph for pcs call dvj lab phys lgu spb vladimir dmitriev for details you can get the program demo and play version sent budapest posta fiok hungary fax budapest multiplot xln for amigas shareware usd aust advanced package that has big list features contact alan baxter agb mbuc bio cam cambridge university department pathology tennis court road cambridge athena plotter widget set this version based gregory bond version beta added some stuff for scientific graphs log axes free scalable axes lineplots and some more and added plotter callbacks from request the current pointer position cut off rectangle from the plotting area for zooming version has log bugs fixed and log improvements against beta additionally did some other changes extensions besides origin and frame lines for axes subgrid lines subtic positions line plots different line types lines points lines points impulses lines impulses steps bars line styles solid dotted dashed dot dashed and marker types for data points legend the right left hand side the plot optional drawing pixmap instead window layout callback for aligning axis positions when using multiple plotters one application available export lcs mit edu directory contrib plotter sciplot sciplot scientific plotting and manipulation program for the next requires nextstep and shareware features ascii import and export eps export copy cut paste with data buffer free number data points data buffer and document window selective open and save plotting many styles automatic legend subviews linear and logarithmic axes two different axes text and graphic color support zoom normalizing and moving axis conversions free hand data manipulations cut edit move etc data editor sorting data absolute relative and free defined error bars calculating with buffers background subtractions linear shirley tougaard bezier integration and relative integration fitting one more free defined functions linear regression calculations sin cos log etc function generator spline interpolation least square smooth and fft smooth differentiation fft esca calculations and database and something more you can find ftp berlin pub next science sciplot tar author michael wesemann scillerstr berlin germany mike fiasko berlin mpg plplot plplot scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness has enough power satisfy most users including standard plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs the same different sizes may placed single page with multiple lines each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported virtually infinite number distinct area fill patterns may used there are almost characters the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and host mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can scaled any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including portable metafile format and renderer freely available but copyrighted via anonymous ftp hagar utexas edu directory pub plplot present plplot known work the following systems unix sunos unicos ultrix other platforms vms amiga exec dos next authors many the main supporters are maurice lebrun mjl fusion utexas edu plplot kernel and the metafile xterm xwindow tektronix and amiga drivers geoff furnish furnish fusion utexas edu dos and drivers tony richardson amr egr duke edu plplot the next supermongo plotting package cmu filename tmp tar probably under the ftp cmu edu andrew cmu edu machines gle gle high quality graphics package for scientists runs variety platforms pcs vaxes and unix with drivers for xwindows regis tek graphics cards plotters postscript printers epson compatible printers and laserjet paintjet printers provides latex quality fonts well full support for postscript fonts the graphing module provides full control over all features graphs the graphics primitives include user defined subroutines for complex pictures and diagrams accompanying utilities include surface for hidden line surface plotting contour for contour plots manip for manipulation columnar data files and fitls for fitting arbitrary equations data mailing list glelist send message listserver tbone biol scarolina edu with message boyd containing sub glelist your name maintainer dean pentcheff dean tbone biol scarolina edu image analysis software image processing and display and mac based tools multi platform software imdisp imdisp written jpl and other nasa sites can simple display enhancing smoothing and works with the fits and vicar pds data formats nasa can read tiff images you know their dimensions and macs labview labview used framework for image processing tools provides graphical programming environment using block diagram sketch the program with graphical elements representing the programming elements hundreds functions are already available and are connected using wiring tool create the block diagram program functions that the block diagrams represent include digital signal processing and filtering numerical analysis statistics etc the tool allows any virtual instrument software file that looks and acts like real laboratory instrument used part any other virtual instrument national instruments markets plug digital signal processing dsp boards for macintoshs and compatables that allow real time acquisition and analysis personal computer new software tools for dsp are allowing engineers harness the power this technology the tools range from low level debugging software high level block diagram development software there are three levels dsp programming associated with the dsp board and labview use the dsp analysis library ffts power spectra filters routines callable from think and macintosh programers workshop mpw that execute the dsp board there analysis virtual interface library ready use vis optimized for the dsp use the national instruments developers toolkit that includes optimizing compiler assembler and linker for low level programming the dsp hardware this approach offers the highest level performance but the must difficult terms ease use use the national instruments interface kit software package which has utility functions for memory management data communications and downloading code the dsp board this the easiest route for the development custom code ultimage concept concept graftek france family image processing virtual instruments vis that give labview described above users high end tools for designing integrating and monitoring imaging control systems software file that looks and acts like real laboratory instrument typical applications for concept include thermography surveillance machine vision production testing biomedical imaging electronic microscopy and remote sensing ultimage concept addresses applications which require further qualitative and quantitative analysis includes complete set functions for image enhancement histogram equalization spatial and frequency filtering isolation features thresholding mathematical morphology analysis density measurement object counting sizing and characterization the program loads images with minimum resolution pixel depth bits and one image plane standard input and output formats include pict tiff satie and aipd other formats can imported image enhancement features include lookup table transformations spatial linear and non linear filters frequency filtering arithmetic and logic operations and geometric transformations among others morphological transformations include erosion dilation opening closing hole removal object separation and extraction skeletons among others quantitative analysis provides for objects detection measurement and morphological distribution measures include area perimeter center gravity moment inertia orientation length relevant chords and shape factors and equivalence measures are saved ascii format the program also provides for macro scripting and integration custom modules view command plots perspective data graph where image intensity depicted mountains valleys the plot the histogram tool can plotted with either linear logarithmic scale the twenty eight arithmetic and logical operations provide for masking and averaging sections images noise removal making comparisons etc there are spatial filters that alter pixel intensities based local intensity these include high pass filters for contrast and outlines the frequency data resulting from fft analysis can displayed either the real imaginary components the phase magnitude data the morphological transformations are useful for data sharpening and defining objects for removing artifacts the transformations include thresholding eroding dilating and even hole filling the program quantitative analysis measurements include area perimeter center mass object counts and angle between points gtfs inc bennett valley road santa rosa iplab spectrum iplab spectrum supports image processing and analysis but lacks the morphology and quantitative analysis features provided graftek franceus ultimage concept using scripting tools the user tells the system the operations performed the problem that far too many basic operations require manual intervention the tool supports ffts arithmetic operations for pixel alteration and movie command for cycling through windows macintosh based tools ncsa image ncsa paledit and more ncsa provides whole suite public domain visualization tools for the macintosh primarily aimed researchers wanting visualize results from numerical modelling calculations these applications documentation and source code are available for anonymous ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu commercial versions the ncsa programs have been developed spyglass spyglass inc devonshire drive champaign fax nih image available alw nih gov preferably zippy nimh nih gov directory pub image has painting and image manipulation tools macro language tools for measuring areas distances and angles and for counting things using frame grabber card can record sequences images played back movie can invoke user defined convolution matrix filters such gaussian can import raw data tab delimited ascii byte quantities also does histograms and even plots limited bits pixel though the bits map into color lookup table runs any mac that has color screen and fpu get the nonfpu version from zippy nimh nih gov photomac data translation inc locke marlboro photopress blue solutions marigold place thousand oaks pixeltools and tcl image complete family pixeltools hardware accelerator and applications software for scientific image processing and analysis video rate capture display processing and analysis high resolution monochromatic and color images includes source code tcl image software package for scientific quantitative image processing and analysis provides complete language for the capture enhancement and extraction quantitative information from gray scale images tcl image has over functions for image processing and contains the other elements needed full programming language for algorithm development variables and control structures easily extensible through script indirect command files these script files are simply text files that contain tcl image commands they are executed normal commands and include the ability pass parameters the direct capture video images supported via popular frame grabber boards tcl image comes with the view utility that provides conversion between common image file types such pict and tiff perceptics pellissippi parkway knoxville satellite image workshop comes with number satellite pictures raw data and does all sorts image enhancing you need least mac with processor color display and large harddisk the program doesn run under system ate the documentation the contact address given liz smith jet propulsion laboratory oak grove pasadena visualization workbench electronic imaging software system that performs interactive image analysis and scientific and plotting paragon imagine lincoln lowell adobe photoshop the tool supports rtrue colors with bit images levels grey scale once image has been imported can rre toucheds with various editing tools typical those used macintosh based rpaints applications these include eraser pencil brush and air brush advanced rpastes tools that control the interaction between pasted selection and the receiving site have also been incorporated for example all red pixels selection can easily preventing from being pasted photoshop has transparencies ranging from allowing you create ghost overlays rphoto editings tools include control the brightness and contrast color balancing hue saturation modification and spectrum equalization images can subjected various signal processing algorithms smooth sharpen the image blur edges locate edges image scaling also supported for storage savings the images can compressed using standard algorithms including externally supplied compression such jpeg availlable from storm technologies the latest version adobe photoshop supports the import numerous image formats including epsf epsf tiff pict resource amiga iff ilbm compuserve gif macpaint pixar pixelpaint scitex tga and thunderscan adobe systems inc charlestown road box mountain view colorstudio and imagestudio colorstudio image editing and paint package from letraset that has more features than adobe photoshop but decidedly more complex and therefore more difficult use several steps are often required accomplish that which can done single step using photoshop the application requires great deal available disk space one can easily end with images the range the program provides variety powerful selection tools including the auto selection tool which lets the user choose image areas the basis color close hues color range and mask imagestudio don know letraset usa eisenhower drive paramus dapple systems high resolution image analysis software provides processing tools work with multiple images enhance and edit and measure variety global feature parameters and interpret the data dapple systems olive ave sunnyvale digital darkroom the latest release digital darkroom has five new selection and editing tools for enhancing images one such feature allows the user select part image simply painting new polyline selection tool creates selection tool for single pixel wide selections brush lets the operator paint with selected portion the image note that this not true color image enhancement tool this tool should used when the user intends operate grey scale images only should noted that digital darkroom not powerful either adobe photoshop colorstudio silicon beach software carroll ctr suite san diego dimple compatible with system and system requires mac series with colours with recommended min ram has the capability reading erdas files functions include image enhancement and contour plots image statistics supervised and unsupervised classification pca and other image transformations there also means image operation language iol which you can write your own transformations there image rectification however dimple compatable with mapii the latest version and the beta stage testing dimple was initially developed teaching tool and very good for this purpose dimple runs colour macintosh product still its development phase doesn have all the inbuilt features other packages but coming along nicely has its own inbuilt language for writing programs for processing image defining convolution filters etc dimple full mac application with pull down menus etc unprotected software process software solutions box wollongong new south wales australia phone fax enhance enhance has rrulers tool that supports measurements and additionally provides angle data the tool has over mathematical filter variations laplacian medium noise filter etc files can saved either tiff pict epsf text however epsf files can imported microfrontier hickman road des moines image analyst image processing product for users who need extract quantitative data from video images image analyst lets users configure sophisticated image processing and measurement routines without the necessity knowing programming language designed for such tasks computing number and size cells images projected video cameras attached microscopes enhancing and measuring distances radiographs image analyst provides users with array field proven video analysis techniques that enable them easily assemble sequence instructions enhance feature appearance count objects determine density shape size position movement perform object feature extraction and conduct textural analysis automatically image analyst works with either framegrabber board and any standard video camera disk stored image within minutes without the need for programming the image analyst user can set process identify and analyze any element image measurements and statistics can automatically semi automatically generated from tiff pict files from captured video tape images image analyst recognizes items images based their size shape and position the tool provides direct support for the data translation and scion frame grabbers menu command allows for image capture from vcr video camera other ntsc pal devices there are types files the image itself and the related sequence file that holds the processing measurements and analysis that the user defines automated sequences are set regions interest roi represented movable sizable boxes atop the image inside roi the program can find the distance between two edges the area shape the thickness wall etc image analyst finds the center edge and other positions automatically the application also provides tools that the user can work interactively find the edge object also supports histograms and color look table clut tool automatix inc middlesex turnpike billerica iplab signal analytics corp maple ave vienna fax menu driven image processing software that supports bit color pseudocolor grayscale image display and manipulation map among the mac gis systems map distributed john wiley has integrated image analysis image from stanford try anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu has source for image and ready run code for mac under image windows dos based tools ccd richard berry ccd imaging book for willamon bell contains optional disks with image manipulating software source code included erdas erdas will all the things you want rectification classification transformations canned user defined overlays filters contrast enhancement etc was using thesis then changed the topic bit that work became secondary erdas inc buford highway suite atlanta fax rsvga have been getting speed program called rsvga available from eidetic digital image ltd british columbia its for ibm clones cheap about and does all the stuff erdas does but not fast powerful though have had only limited experience with erdas have used rsvga with landsat bands and good starter program except for the obtuse manual imagine bit package suppose for pcs called imagine image the program does modest amount image processing add subtract multiply divide display and plot cut across the image can also display number images simultaneously the company compuscope santa barbara vista was announced the august edition pasp known available from mike richmond whose email addresses have been richmond bllac berkeley edu richmond bkyast berkeley edu and his mail address michael richmond astronomy department campbell hall berkeley the latest version vista version includes not only the source code and help files but also complete set executable programs and number sample fits images you wish use the source code you will need microsoft version later other compilers may work but will require substantial modifications receive the documentation and nine double density floppies three quad density inch floppies with everything them just send request for vista together with your name and mail address office technology licensing shattuck ave suite berkeley include check traveller checks are fine purchase order for dollars your address inside the continental otherwise made out regents the university california cover duplication and mailing costs software tools set software tools put out canyon state systems and software they are not free but rather cheap about heard will handle most all the formats used frame grabber software mirage image processing software written jim gunn the astrophysics dept princeton will run among other platforms forth based system forth language with many image processing displaying functions built data translation source book the data translation company massachusetts publishes free book containing vendors data analysis hardware and software which compatible with data translation and other frame grabbers surely you can find much more related stuff maxen couple canadians have written program named maxen which does maximum entropy image deconvolution their company named digital signal processing software something like that and the software mentioned article astronomy magazine either jan feb article ccd film jandel scientific java another software package java put out jandel scientific jandel scientific koch road corte madera microbrian runs dos platform and uses bit graphics card vista about released version will support number super vga cards its full blown remote sensed data processing system menu driven character based screen but does not use windowed user interface its hardware protected with dongle mbrian micro barrier reef image anaysis system was developed csiro commonwealth scientific industrial organization and marketed supported mpa australia lusher road croydon victoria tel fax there are educational and commercial prices but prepared set aside for the first educational licence subsequent ones come cheaper they need has installed sites worldwide widely used anu microimage the remote sensing lab here dartmouth currently uses terra mar microimage pcs with some fancy display hardware terra mar resource information services inc landings drive mountain view fax unix based tools iraf image reduction and analysis facility developed the national optical astronomy observatory kitt peak free you can ftp from tucana noao edu and complement with stsdas from stsci edu email iraf noao edu for more details apparently this one the facto standards the astronomical image community they issue newsletter also they seem support very well their users works with vms also last heard and practically has its own shell top the vms unix shells suggested that you get copy saoimage for display under windows very flexible extendable tons literally linear feet documentation for the general user skilled user and programmer alv sun specific image toolkit version posted comp sources sun dec also available via email alv users request bris aips astronomical image processing system contact aipsmail nrao edu also see the usenet newsgroups alt sci astro aips and sci astro fits built nrao national radio astronomy observatory charlottesville sites software distributed track exabyte dat non anonymous internet ftp documentation postscript mostly available via anonymous ftp baboon nrao edu directory pub aips and pub aips text publ installation requires building the system and thus fortran and compiler this package can read and write fits data see sci astro fits and primarily for reduction analysis and image enhancement radio astronomy data from radio telescopes particularly the very large array vla synthesis instrument consists almost programs that everything from copying data sophisticated deconvolution via maximum entropy there based image tool xas and tek compatible xterm based graphics tool built into aips the xas tool modelled after the hardware functionality the international imaging systems model display unit and can image arithmetic etc the code mostly fortran with some system language modules and available for suns ibm dec ultrix convex cray unicos and alliant with support planned for solaris and maybe sgi there currently project aips underway rewrite the algorithmic functionality aips modern setting using and object oriented approach whereas aips proprietary code licensed for free non profit institutions owner nrao and the nsf aips will the public domain some level international effort with contributions from the canada england the netherlands india and australia name few laboimage version out for written and currently runs sun xxx sun xxx and under sunview the expert system for image segmentation written allegro common lisp was used the following domains computer science image analysis medicine biology physics distributed free charge source code available via anonymous ftp ftp ads com pub vision list archive shareware laboimage contact prof thierry pun computer vision group computing science center geneva rue lac geneva switzerland phone fax mail pun cui unige pun cgeuge bitnet figaro was originally made for vms and can obtained from keith shortridge australia aaoepp aao gov and for unix from sam southard caltech sns deimos caltech edu about mbytes sun khoros moved the scientific visualization category below vista the real thing available via anonymous ftp from lowell edu email vista lowell edu for more details total size less than mbytes disimp device independent software for image processing powerful system providing both user friendliness and high functionality interactive times feature description disimp incorporates rich library image processing utilities and spatial data options all functions can easily accessed via the disimp executive this menu modular design and groups image processes their function such logical structure means that complicated processes are simply progression through series modules processes include image rectification classification unsupervised and supervised intensity transformations three dimensional display and principal component analysis disimp also supports the more simple and effective enhancement techniques filtering band subtraction and ratioing host configuration requirements running unix workstations disimp capable processing the more computational intensive techniques interactive processing times disimp available both runtime and programmer environments using the programmers environment utilities can developed for specific applications programs graphics are governed icon based display panel which allows quick enhancments displayed image manipulations look tables colour stretches changes histograms zooming and panning can interactively driven through this control range geographic projections enables disimp integrate data image graphic and textual types images can rectified number coordinate systems providing the true geographic knowledge essential for ground truthing overlays grids text and vector data can added further enhance referenced imagery the system flexible package allowing users various skill levels determine their own working environment including the amount help required disimp comes fully configured with optional extras the purchase price includes all functionality required for professional processing remote sensed data for further information please contact the business manager clough engineering group systems division chapel street south yarra australia telephone fax global imaging software use global imaging software process avhrr data from the dish the final display select chunk five band data from pass automatic navigation calibrate albedo and temp convert that byte register predesigned window all relatively automatically and carefree has classification routines speak but isn that difficult write your own with their programmer module very small operation one designs one codes one sells been around for number years sold weather service and navy runs with supports bit display hips human information processing laboratory image processing system michael landy wrote and sell general purpose package for image processing which has been used for basically all the usual image processing applications robotics medical satellite engineering oil exploration etc called hips and deals with sequences multiband images the same way deals with single images has been growing since first wrote both additions from well huge user contributed library feature description hips set image processing modules which together provide powerful suite tools for those interested research system development and teaching handles sequences images movies precisely the same manner single frames programs and subroutines have been developed for simple image transformations filtering convolution fourier and other transform processing edge detection and line drawing manipulation digital image compression and transmission methods noise generation and image statistics computation over such image transformation programs have been developed result almost any image processing task can performed quickly and conveniently additionally hips allows users easily integrate their own custom routines new users become effective using hips their first day hips features images that are self documenting each image stored the system contains history the transformations that have been applied that image hips includes small set subroutines which primarily deals with standardized image sequence header and large library image transformation tools the form unix filters comes complete with source code line manual pages and line documentation host configuration requirements originally developed new york university hips now represents one the most extensive and flexible vision and image processing environments currently available runs under the unix operating system modular and flexible provides automatic documentation its actions and almost entirely independent special equipment hips now use variety computers including vax and microvax sun apollo masscomp ncr tower iris ibm etc for image display and input drivers are supplied for the grinnell and adage ikonas image processors and the sun sun sun and sun consoles also supply user contributed drivers for number other framestores and windowing packages sun gfx sun console matrox vip iti lexidata macintosh windowing system and iris the hipsaddon package includes interface for the crs simple matter interface hips with other frame stores and can put interested users touch with users who have interfaced hips with the arlunya and datacube max video hips can easily adapted for other image display devices because hips machine independent availability hips has proven itself highly flexible system both interactive research tool and for more production oriented tasks both easy use and quickly adapted and extended new uses hips supplied magnetic tape unix tar format either reel reel sun cartridge and comes with source code libraries library convolu tion masks and line documentation and manual pages michael landy sharpimage software box prince street station new york voice fax msl cns nyu edu mira please don confuse that with the thalmanns animation system from montreal these are altogether different beasts nfotis mira stands for microcomputer image reduction and analysis mira gives workstation level performance dos computers using svga cards color modes mira contains very handsome functional gui which mouse and keystroke operated mira reads writes tiff and fits formats native formats number ccd cameras and uncompressed binary images byte short integer and byte real pixel format dimensions the result image processing operation can short integer real pixels the same that the input image mira does the operation using short floating point arithmetic maintain the precision and accuracy the pixel format over functions are hand coded assembly language for maximum speed the intel hardware the entire graphical interface also written assembly language maximize the speed windowing operations windows for image and image data display and analysis have dedicated cursors which read position and value value real time you move the mouse there are also smooth real time contrast and brightness stretch and panning magnified portion the displayed image all operated the mouse wide selection grayscale pseudocolor and random palettes provided and other palettes can generated supported functions include such niceties the following image image interpolation image constant unary operations abs value polynomial pixel value chs log byteswap clip values upper lower limits short real real short combine images mean median mode sum pixel values with without autoscaling mean median mode image section convolutions filters laplacian sobel edge operator directional gradient line gaussian elliptical and rectangular equal weight filters unsharp masking median filters user defined filter kernel ellipse rectangle line gradient gaussian and user defined filters can rotated any specified angle ccd data reduction flat fielding dark subtraction column over underscan bias removal remove bad pixels and column defects normalize region target mean median modal value create subimage mosaic images get larger image collapse image into image plot section collapsed section image plot histogram region image review change image information header data rename keywords plot keyword values for set images luminance photometry elliptical circular aperture photometry brightness profile isophotal photometry between set upper lower luminances area and luminance inside traced polygon interactive background fitting and removal from part all image fit elliptical aperture shape image isophotes interactive with image contrast brightness diagonal plot pixel values distance between two points compute region stats centroid pan location image center zoom times change cursor rectangle crosshair full image crosshair off and adjust cursor size image select linear log gamma transfer function histogram equalization interactive specified image offset computation and sampling for registration interactive with image zoom both steps times current center plot enlarge framed area plot buffers can cycled through interactive data analysis polynomial fitting point deletion undelete change value point weighting linear and quadratic loess and binomial smoothing revert unit point weights original data buffer substitute results into data buffer for pass back calling function dump data buffer overlays and error bars file printer change user specified coordinate system tricolor image combination and display hardcopy halftone printout pcl compatible printers laserjet deskjet etc documentation over pages custom vinyl binder cost usd copy available from axiom research inc box tucson phone fax international marketing rep saguaro scientific corporation tucson arizona end part the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april scene generators geographical data maps data files dems digital elevation models dems digital elevation models well other cartographic data huge available from spectrum xerox com pub map contact lee moore webster research center xerox corp voice arpa internet moore wbst xerox com check also ncgia ucsb edu pub dems nfotis many these files are also available rom selled usgs scale digital line graph dlg data contains datas for all states price about call visit offices menlo park reston virginia usa maps the data user services division the bureau the census also has data rom tso standard format that derived from usgs map data call for more info they have bbs from dobbs march the defense mapping agency cooperation with their counterpart agencies canada the and australia have released the digital chart the world dcw this chart consists over gigabytes reasonable quality vector data distributed four roms includes coastlines rivers roads railrays airports cities towns spot elevations and depths and over place names iso compatible and only available from geological survey box denver federal center denver digital distribution services energy mines and resources canada booth street ottawa canada director general military survey survey elmwood avenue feltham middlesex united kingdom director survey australian army department defense campbell park offices campbell act australia fractal landscape generators public domain many people have written fractal landscape generators for example for the mac some these generators were written pdbourke ccu aukuni paul bourke many the programs are available from the ftp sites and mail archive servers check with archie commercial vista pro for the amiga from virtual reality labs list price about their address vrl ganador court san luis obispo telephone fax scenery animator also for the amiga the same caliber with vista pro check with natural graphics box raklin phone don forget ask about companion programs and data disks tapes vista pro has been ported the pcs cia world map note this database quite out date and not topologically structured you need standard for world cartographic data wait for the digital chart the world this database has been produced from the defense mapping agency oncs and will available together with searching and viewing software number roms later this summer check into hanauma stanford edu and ucsd edu see ftp list above the cia database consists coastlines rivers and political boundaries the form line strokes also hanauma stanford edu array elevation data containing one ieee floating point number for every half degree longitude and latitude program for decoding the database mfil can found the machine arc umn edu there another program which reads compressed cia data bank file and builds phigs hierachical structure uses phigs extension known polyline sets for performance but you can use regular polylines ask joe stewart joes lpi liant com the raw data stanford require the vplot package able view was posted comp sources unix more exact you have compile just the libvplot routines not the whole package ncar data ncar national center for atmospheric research has many types terrain data ranging from elevation datasets various resolutions information about soil types vegetation etc this data not free they charge from more depending the data volume and media exabyte tape cartridge track tape ibm floppy and ftp transfer are all available their data archive mostly research oriented not hobbyist oriented for more information email ilana ncar ucar edu unc data tapes with voxel data there are public domain tapes with data for the comparison and testing various volume rendering algorithms mainly mri and scans these tapes are distributed the softlab unc chapel hill softlab unc edu the data sets volume and are also available via anonymous ftp from omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd nasa many agencies such nasa publish roms with many altimetry data from various space missions viking for mars magellan for venus etc especially for nasa would suggest call the following address for more info national space science date center goddard space flight center greenbelt maryland telephone email address request nssdca gsfc nasa gov the data catalog not the data itself available online internet users can telnet nssdca gsfc nasa gov and log nodis password you can also dial baud bits parity one stop the enter number prompt enter and carriage return when the system responds call complete enter few more carriage returns get the username and log nodis password nssdca also anonymous ftp site but comprehensive list what there available present earth sciences data there listing anonymous ftp sites for earth science data including imagery this listing called earth sciences resources internet and you can get via anonymous ftp from csn org the directory cogs under the name internet resources earth sci some sites include aurelie soest hawaii edu pub avhrr images avhrr images ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc pub space index contains listing files available the whole archive the index about itself there also mail server for the people without internet access send letter archive server ames arc nasa gov ames archive server the subject your letter the body use commands like send space index send space shuttle capitalization important only text files are handled the email server present vab larc nasa gov pub gifs misc landsat landsat photos gif and jpeg format was shut down nfotis anyone has copy this archive others daily values river discharge streamflow and daily weather data available from earthinfo central ave boulder these disks are expensive around but there are quantity discounts check vmd cso uiuc edu the directory carries data regarding surface analysis weather radar and sat view pics gif format updated hourly pioneer unm edu the space and planetary image facility located the university new mexico campus ftp server provides anonymous ftp access roms with data images disk with earthquake data topography gravity geopolitical info available from ngdc national geophysical data center broadway boulder eosat least the now sells landsat mss data older than two years old for per scene and they have been talking about similar deal for landsat data the mss data are bands meter resolution check out anonymous ftp ftp ncsa uiuc edu unix polyview alpha shape for tool that creates convex hulls alpha shapes generalization the convex hull from point sets the grips gov raster image processing software rom available from rom inc for code for viewing adrg arc digitised raster graphics files available the grips rom the army engineer topographic labs juan perez code also available via ftp adrg zip archive spectrum xerox com nrcc range data rioux cournoyer the nrcc three dimensional image data files tech report cnrc national research council canada ottawa canada from what understand these data are from laser range finder and you can copy for research purposes scanners digitized data cyberware labs monterey manufactures color laser digitizer which can used model parts complete human body they run service bureau also they can digitize models for you address cyberware labs inc harris suite monterey phone fax polhemus makes input device actually couple models that senses position and orientation based electromagnetic field interference this equipment also incorporated the vpl dataglove this hardware also called isotrack from keiser aerospace ascension technology makes similar input device there company applied sciences that makes input device position only based speed sound triangulation company that specializes digitizing viewpoint you can ask for viewpoint free page catalog full ready ship datasets from categories such cars anatomy aircraft sports boats trains animals and others though these objects are quite expensive the cataloge nevertheless interest for has pictures all the available objects wireframe polygon mesh contact viewpoint west center orem utah fax dataset some addresses for companies that make digitizers ascension technology bird flock birds big bird trackers box burlington phone fax polhemus incorporated digitizer trackers box hercules colchester tel logitech inc red baron ultrasonic mouse kaiser freemont tel shooting star technology mechanical headtracker holdom ave burnaby canada tel fax spaceball technologies inc spaceball stationary input device suffolk street lowell tel fax tel mountain view transfinite systems gold brick powerglove for macintosh box mit branch post office cambridge tel email applelink apple com vpl research inc eyephone head mounted display dataglove glove hand input device vpl research inc tower lane floor foster city tel fax simgraphics engineering flying mouse input device huntington suite south pasadena background imagery textures datafiles first check the ftp places that are mentioned the faq the ftp list above bit scanning get good bit scanner like epson suggested scsi port for speed eric haines had suggestion news volume scan textures for wallpapers and floor coverings etc from doll house supplies you have rather cheap way scan patterns that don have scaling troubles associated with real materials and scanning area books with textures find some houses books magazines that carry photographic material educorp sells roms with various imagery also wide variety stock art available stock art from big name stock art houses such comstock uniphoto and metro image base available italy there company called belvedere that makes such books for the purpose clipping their pages for inclusion your graphics work their address edition belvedere ltd rome italy piazzale flaminio tel fax texture libraries mannikin sceptre graphics announced textiles set bit textures initial shipments bit iff for amigas soon bit tiff format algorithmically built for tiled surfaces srp volume each volume images disks demo disks for are available contact mannikin sceptre graphics indiana ave winter park phone fax essence library sixty five new algoritmic textures for imagine impulse inc these textures are fully compatible with the floating point versions imagine imagine and even turbo silver written steve worley for more info contact essence info apex software publishing camino real suite menlo park usa what about texture city introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing assume you have general understanding computer graphics then read some the books that the faq contains for ray tracing would suggest introduction ray tracing andrew glassner academic press isbn note that have not read the book but feel that you can wrong using his book errata list was posted comp graphics eric haines erich eye com there more concise reference also roman kuchkuda unc chapel hill introduction ray tracing theoretical foundations for computer graphics and cad earnshaw nato vol printed springer verlag contains code for small but fundamentally complete ray tracer buffer depth buffer good reference procedural elements for computer graphics david rogers mcgraw hill new york pages and others more info needed nfotis where can find the geometric data for the teapot displays display column ieee jan has the whole story about origin the martin newell teapot the article also has the bezier patch model and pascal program display the wireframe model the teapot ieee sep jim blinn column jim blinn corner describes another way model the teapot bezier curves with rotations for example are used the off and spd packages have these objects you advised get them avoid typing the data yourself the off data triangles specific resolution around triangles meshing per patch the spd package provides the spline patch descriptions and performs tessellation any specified resolution space shuttle tolis lerios tolis nova stanford edu has built list space shuttle datafiles here summary from his sci space list model modified version the newsgroup model model vertices useful referred the polygon descriptions polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors non existent units unknown simon marshall marshall sequent hull has copy said there proprietary information associated with model the newsgroup model off format you can find gondwana ecr file pub off objects shuttle geo hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics objects shuttle data model the triangles model this model stored several files each defining portions the model greg henderson henders infonode ingr com has copy did not mention any restriction the model distribution model the nasa model the file starts off with header line containing three real numbers defining the offsets used lockheed their simulations offset offset offset from then the file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex vertex payload doors closed units inches jon berndt jon jsc nasa gov seems responsible for the model proprietary info unknown model the old shuttle model the file consists sequence polygon descriptions vertices polygons vertex vertex payload doors open units meters have been using this model star labs stanford university for some years now contact tolis nova stanford edu supervisor scott williams scott star stanford edu you want copy image annotation software touchup runs sunview and pretty good reads rasterfiles but even your image isn normally stored rasterfile format you could use screendump make rasterfile idraw part stanford interviews distribution can handle some image formats addition being macdraw like tool not sure exactly what they are you can ftp the idraw binary from interviews stanford edu tgif another macdraw like tool that can handle bitmap xbm and pixmap xpm formats the image you have formats other than xbm xpm you can get the pbmplus toolkit convert things like gif even some macintosh formats xpm tgif sources are available the pub directory ucla edu version tgif patchlevel plus patch and patch use the editimage facility khoros see below this just one utility the overall system you can essentially all your image processing and macdraw type graphics using this package you might able get with pbmplus pbmtext gives you text output bitmaps which can overlaid top your image ice requires sun hardware running openwindows postscript based graphical editor and available for anonymous ftp from internet host soest hawaii edu requires sun and two other locally developed packages the lxt library xlib based toolkit and small class library all files pub ice tar pub lxt tar and pub ldgoc tar are available compressed tar format pub ice tar contains readme that gives installation instructions well extensive man page ice statically linked compressed executable pub ice sun for sparc systems also available for ftp all software the property columbia university and may not redistributed without permission ice means image composition environment and imaging tool that allows raster images combined with wide variety postscript annotations wysiwyg fashion via imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing use imagemagick annotate image from your server pick the position your text with the cursor and choose your font and pen color from pull down menu imagemagick can read and write many the more popular image formats imagemagick available export lcs mit edu contrib imagemagick tar your nearest archive scientific visualization stuff data slice xds bundled with the distribution from mit the contrib directory available ftp ncsa uiuc edu either source binaries for various platforms national center for supercomputing applications ncsa tool suite platforms unix workstations dec ibm sgi sun apple macintosh cray supercomputers availability now available source code the public domain ftp from ftp ncsa uiuc edu contact national center for supercomputing applications computing applications building springfield ave champaign cost free zero dollars the suite includes tools for image and scene analysis and visualization the code actively maintained and updated spyglass they sell commercial versions the ncsa tools examples are spyglass dicer volumetric data analysis package platform mac spyglass transform data analysis package platforms mac sgi sun dec ibm contact spyglass inc box champaign khoros patch available via anonymous ftp pprg eece unm edu pub khoros see what available huge but good needs unix and freely copied not complete with sources and docs very extensive and its heart visual programming khoros components include visual programming language code generators for extending the visual language and adding new application packages the system interactive user interface editor interactive image display package extensive library image and signal processing routines and plotting packages see comp soft sys khoros usenet and the relative faq for more info contact the khoros group room eece dept university new mexico albuquerque email khoros request chama eece unm edu macphase analysis visualization application for the macintosh operates and data arrays import export several different file formats several different plotting options such gray scale color raster wire frame surface contour vector line and combinations ffts filtering and other math functions color look editor array calculator etc shareware available via anonymous ftp from sumex aim stanford edu the info mac app directory for other information contact doug norton mail compuserve com iris explorer application creation system developed silicon graphics that provides visualisation and analysis functionality for computational scientists engineers and other scientists the explorer gui allows users build custom applications without having write any minimal amount traditonal code also existing code can easily integrated into the explorer environment explorer currently available now sgi and cray machines but will become available other platforms time bundled with every new sgi machine far know see comp graphics explorer comp sys sgi for discussion the package there are also two ftp servers for related stuff modules etc ftp epcc swedishchef lerc nasa gov mirror the site ape back the old good days you could get ape for nearly free now has gone commercial and the following vendor supplies taravisual corporation harrison avenue columbus ohio tel and fax cost plus tax runtime version with site license for single user time limit the number machines cluster includes support maintenance and upgrades source code more additional user licenses the name the package has become ape iii khoros very similar ape philosophy are avs and explorer avs see also comp graphics avs platforms convex cray dec evans sutherland ibm kubota set technologies sgi stardent sun wavetracer availability avs available all the above for all unix workstations contact advanced visual systems inc fifth ave waltham telephone fax avs avs com email advanced visual systems inc for cray ibm sgi stardent sun convex for convex advanced visual systems inc cray for cray dec for dec evans sutherland for evans sutherland advanced visual systems inc ibm for ibm kubota pacific inc for kubota set technologies for set technologies wavetracer for wavetracer ftp site for modules data sets other info avs ncsc org wit nutshell package the same genre avs explorer etc seems more image processing system than generic scivi system imho major elements are visual programming language which automatically exploits the inherent parallelism code generator which converts the graph standalone program iconified libraries present rich set point filter transform morphological segmentation and measurement operations flow library allows graphs employ broadcast merge synchronization conditional and sequencing control strategies wit delivers object oriented distributed visual programming environment which allows users rapidly design solutions their imaging problems users can consolidate both software and hardware developments within complete cad like workspace adding their own operators functions objects data structures and servers specialized hardware wit runs sun sgi and supports datacube hardware allowing you run your graphs real time for free wit demo disk call fax mail poon ubc stating your complete name address voice fax mail info and desired platform pricing wit for sparc one free upgrades days technical support academic institutions discounts available contact logical vision ltd suite gilmore way burnaby canada tel fax terry arden poon ubc vis system for visually exploring the output gridded data sets such those made weather models platforms sgi iris with vgx gtx graphics sgi crimson indigo elan graphics suggested irix ibm with graphics aix version later stardent and with truecolor display any case more ram are suggested you can get freely thanks nasa support via anonymous ftp ftp iris ssec wisc edu ftp then ftp pub vis ftp ascii ftp get readme ftp bye note you can find the package also wuarchive wustl edu the graphics graphics packages directory read section the readme file for full instructions how get and install vis contact bill hibbard whibbard vms macc wisc edu brian paul bpaul vms macc wisc edu dataexplorer ibm platforms ibm risc system ibm power visualization server simd mesh mhz working announced sgi sun contact your local ibm rep for trial package ask your rep contact david kilgore data explorer product marketing yktvmh kilcore wavefront data visualizer personal visualizer advanced visualizer platforms sgi sun ibm dec availability available all the above platforms from wavefront technologies educational programs and site licenses are available contacts mike wilson mike wti com wavefront technologies inc east montecito street santa barbara fax wavefront europe guldenspoorstraat gent belgium fax wavefront technologies japan shinjuku sumitomo bldg nishi shinjuku shunjuku tokyo japan fax plot and fast from nasa ames these packages are distributed from cosmic least for fast ask pat elson pelson nas nasa gov for distribution information general these codes are for citizens only xgraph the contrib tape its specialty display data sets ncar national center for atmospheric research one the original graphics packages runs sun sgi vax cray decstations and more contact graphics information ncar scientific computing division box boulder scdinfo ncar ucar edu cost edu unlimited users gov user users users com users multiply gov idl environment for scientific computing and visualization based array oriented language idl includes and graphics matrix manupulation signal and image processing basic statistics gridding mapping and widget based system for building gui for idl applications open look motif windows environments dec vms and ultrix ibm sgi sun microsoft windows mac version progress cost educational and quantity discounts available see also comp lang idl pvwave the idl pvwave bundle contact research systems inc street suite boulder phone fax mail info rsinc com demo available via ftp call mail for details idl sips lot people are using idl with package called sips this was developed the university colorado boulder some people working for alex goetz you might try contacting them you already have idl would willing buy few thousand dollars american expect for idl and the other should free those are the general purpose packages heard besides what terramar has sips was written for aviris imagery not sure how general purpose you would have contact goetz one his people and ask have another piece software pcw that does and walsh transformations with pseudocoloring and clustering and limited image modification you can compute image using selected components used megabyte aviris images without problems but for the best speed you need external dsp card will work without but large images take quite while times long process that freebie you want favorite idl interactive data language from research systems inc idl opinion much better and infinitely easier its programming language very strong and easy very pascal like handles the number crunching very well also personally like doing the number crunching with idl the vax mathematica igor even excel the mac not too hairy then bringing over nih image for the imaging part have yet encounter any situation which that combination couldn handle and the speed and ease use compared iraf was incredible the way mostly astronomical image processing which been doing this means image enhancement cleaning bad lines pixels and some other traditional image processing routines then for example taking graph intensity versus position along line choose with the mouse then doing curve fit that line which might like kaleidagraph for idl call research systems for wave call precision visuals and for sips call university colorado boulder from what can understand you can get packaged programs from research systems though nfotis visual contact robert haimes mit fieldview interactive program designed assist engineer investigating fluid dynamics data sets platforms sgi ibm sun terminals availability currently available all the above platforms educational programs and volume discounts are available contact intelligent light box fair lawn steve kramer kramer ilight com scian scian primarily intended visualizations data interactive environment with the ability generate animations using frame accurate video recording devices user manual line help and technical notes will help you use the program cost free source code provided via ftp platforms sgi machines and ibm with the card buffer where find ftp scri fsu edu pub scian mirror monu monash edu pub scian scry from the readme scry distributed image handling system that pro vides image transport and compression local and wide area networks image viewing workstations recording video equipment and storage disk the system can distri buted among workstations between supercomputers and works tations and between supercomputers workstations and video animation controllers the system most commonly used produce video based movie displays images resulting from visualization time dependent data complex data sets and image processing operations both the clients and servers run variety systems that provide unix like run time environments and bsd sockets the source available for anonymous ftp csam lbl gov pub scry tar contact bill johnston wejohnston lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov johnston david robertson dwrobertson lbl gov ucbvax csam lbl gov davidr imaging technologies group lawrence berkeley laboratory cyclotron road berkeley svlib fvs svlib windows widget set based the osf open software foundation motif widget set svlib widgets are macro widgets comprising lower level motif widgets such buttons scrollbars menus and drawing areas designed address the reusability visualization routines and each widget the library encapsulation specific visualization technique such colormap manipulation image display and contour plotting targetted run unix workstations supporting osf motif currently only color monitors are supported since svlib collection widgets developed the same spirit the osf motif user interface widget set integrates seamlessly with the motif widgets programmers using svlib widgets see the same interface and design other motif widgets fvs visualization software for computational fluid dynamics cfd simulations fvs designed accept data generated from these simulations and apply various visualization techniques present these data graphically fvs accepts three dimensional multi block data recorded ncsa hdf format iti gov pub svlib scientific visualization fvs these directories contain demo binaries for sun sgi cost for academic and for non academic institutions for each the above items you getting the source for the licence contact miss quek lee hian member technical staff information technology institute national computer board ncb building sicence park drive singapore republic singapore tel fax email leehian iti gov gvlware distribution bob interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz disk based movie player for the sgi icol motif color editor the army high performance computing research center ahpcrc has been developing set tools work with large time dependent and data sets the graphics and visualization lab gvl are using these tools along side standard packages such sgi explorer and the utah raster toolkit render volumes and create digital movies couple the more general purpose programs have been bundled into package called gvlware gvlware currently consisting bob raz and icol now available via ftp the most interesting program probably bob interactive volume renderer for the sgi raz streams raster images from disk sgi screen enabling movies larger than memory played icol color map editor that works with bob and raz source and pre built binaries for irix are included acquire gvlware anonymous ftp machine ftp arc umn edu file pub gvl tar use gvlware mkdir gvl gvl zcat gvl tar tar xvf more readme some bob features motif interface sgi rendering renders cubed data set seconds vgx alpha compositing and maximum value rendering perspective only maximum value rendering personal iris data must brick bytes regularly spaced grid animation subvolumes subsampling stereo some raz features motif interface sgi rendering loads files raw disk partition then streams screen requires empty disk partition set aside script interface available for movie sequences can stream from memory like ncsa ximage some icol features motif interface easy create interpolated color maps between key points rgb hsv and yuv color spaces multiple file formats communicates changes automatically bob and raz has been tested sgi sun dec and cray systems btw bob brick bytes icol interpolated color raz just name please send any comments gvlware ahpcrc umn edu this software collection supported the army research office contract number daalo with the university minnesota army high performance computing research center iap imaging applications platform commercial package for medical and scientific visualization does volume rendering binary surface rendering multiplanar reformating image manipulation cine sequencing intermixes geometry and text with images and provides measurement and coordinate transform abilities can provide hardcopy most medical film printers image database functionality and interconnection most medical mri etc scanners client server based and provides object oriented interface runs most high performance workstations and takes full advantage parallelism where available robust efficient and will submitted for fda approval for use medical applications cost for oem developer for educational developer and run times starting and going down based quantity the developer packages include two days training for two people toronto available from isg technologies airport road mississauga ontario canada mail rod gilchrist rod isgtec com molecular visualization stuff based list from cristy dupont com cristy which asked for systems for displaying molecular dynamics for short flex public domain package written michael pique the scripps research institute jolla flex stored compressed tar archive about perutz scripps edu pub flex displays molecular models and trajectories macmolecule for macintosh searched with archie and the most promising place sumex aim stanford edu info mac app and info mac art for demo display runs sgi machines call terry lybrand lybrand milton washington edu xtalview crystallography package that does visualize molecules and much more uses the xview toolkit call duncan mcree dem scripps edu landman hal physics wayne edu writing own visualization code right now look output specific format easy alter for the subroutine program has hooks into gks your friend has access phigs for pex and fortran bindings would happy share evolving code free charge right now can display supercells atoms easy change and time steps drawing nearest neighbor bonds between defining radii works acceptably fast mhz icsg caesar montana edu did project molecular visualization for master thesis using unix motif which generates simple point and space filling model kgngraf kgngraf part motecc look malena crs pub motecc motecc info txt information about motecc plain ascii format motecc info troff information about motecc troff format motecc form troff motecc order form troff format motecc license troff motecc license agreement troff format motecc info information about motecc postscript format motecc form motecc order form postscript format motecc license motecc license agreement postscript format ditolla itnsg cineca working molecular dynamic too friend mine and have developed program display run dynamically silicon graphics are working improve but doesn work under are using the graphi lib the silicon because they are much faster then when end post the news info about where get with ftp will free software xball written david nedde call daven maxine wpi edu xmol window system program that uses osf motif for the display and analysis molecular model data data from several common file formats can read and written current formats include alchemy chemlab gaussian molsim mopac pdb and msci xyz format which has been designed for simplicity translating and from other formats xmol also allows for conversion between several these formats xmol available ftp msc edu read pub xmol readme for further details insight from biosym technologies inc scarecrow the program has been published molecular graphics the program can analyze and display charmm discover yasp and mumod trajectories the program package contains also software for the generation probe surfaces proton affinity surfaces and molecular orbitals from extended huckel program works silicon graphics machines contact leif laaksonen leif laaksonen csc laaksone csc multi niehs nih gov pub multi multi process molecular modeling suite mindtool runs under sunview and requires fortran compiler and sun cgi libraries mindtool tool provided for the interactive graphic manipulation molecules and atoms currently atoms may input available via anonymous ftp rani chem yale edu directory pub mindtool check with archie for other sites that too far would also suggest looking least sgi applications directory contains many more packages nfotis gis geographical information systems software grass geographic resource analysis support system the army construction engineering research lab cerl popular geographic and remote sensing image processing package many may think grass geographic information system rather than image processing package although reported have significant image processing capabilities feature descriptions use grass because public domain and can obtained through the internet for free grass runs unix and written the source code can obtained through anonymous ftp from the office grass integration you then compile the source code for your machine using scripts provided with grass would recommend grass for someone who already has workstation and limited budget grass not very user friendly compared macintosh software first review overview documentation indicates that looks useful and has some pixel resampling functions not other packages plus good general purpose image enhancement routines fft kelly maurice vexcel corp boulder primary user grass this gentleman has used the grass software and developed multi spectral bands volumetric rendering full color suns and stardents was really effective interface vexcel corp currently has contract map part venus and convert the magellan radar data into contour maps you can call them email care greg vexcel com host configuration requirements you are willing run you could install grass macintosh which has significant image analysis and import capabilities for satellite data grass public domain and can run high end under unix raster based has some image processing capability and can display vector data but analysis must done the raster environment have used grass sun workstation and found easy use best course for data that are well represented raster grid cell form availability cerl office grass integration ogi maintains ftp server moon cecer army mil mail regarding this site should addressed grass ftp admin moon cecer army mil this location will the new canonical source for grass software well bug fixes contributed sources documentation and other files this ftp server also supports dynamic compression and uncompression and tar archiving files feature attraction the server john parks grass tutorial because the manual still beta test stage john requests that people only acquire they are willing review and mail him comments corrections the ogi not currently maintaining this document all correspondence about should directed grassx tang uark edu support listserv mailing lists grassu list amber cecer army mil for grass users application level questions support concerns miscellaneous questions etc send subscribe commands grassu request amber cecer army mil grassp list amber cecer army mil for grass programmers system level questions and tips tricks and techniques design and implementation grass applications send subscribe commands grassp request amber cecer army mil both lists are maintained the office grass integration subset the army corps engineers construction engineering research lab champaign the ogi providing the lists service the community while ogi and cerl employees will participate the lists can make claim content veracity messages that pass through the list you have questions problems comments send mail lists owner amber cecer army mil and human will respond microstation imager intergraph based huntsville alabama sells wide range gis software hardware microstation base graphics package that imager sits top imager basically image processing package with heavy gis remote sensing flavor feature description basic geometry manipulations flip mirror rotate generalized affine rectification affine and order models well projective model warp image vector map another image rgb ihs and ihs rgb conversion principal component analysis classification means and isodata fourier xforms forward filtering and reverse filters high pass low pass edge enhancing median generic complex histogram contrast control layer controller manages images time user can extract single bands from band image create color images combining various individual bands etc the package designed for remote sensing application can handle very large images and there all kinds other software available for gis applications host configuration requirements runs intergraph workstations unix machine similar sun though there were rumors there are always rumors that the software would ported and possibly sun environment pci company called pci inc out richmond hill ontario canada makes array software utilities for processing manipulation and use remote sensing data eight ten different industry standard formats lgsowg bsq landsat and couple others whose titles forget the software available versions for dos unix workstations among them sun and ibm and vms and quite possibly other platforms now use the vms version the pci software consists several classes groups packages utilities grouped function but all operating common pci database disk file the tape package set utility programs which read from the various remote sensing industry tape formats into write those formats out from the pci database file this the only package use know much about other packages can display data from the pci database one another several pci supported third party color displays output numeric bitmap representation image data attached printer epson type dot matrix graphics printer you might more spe cifically interested the mathematical operations package histo gram and fourier analysis equalization user specified operations multiply channel add channel and store channel and god only knows what all else there lot don have and don use these can say much about them you only buy the packages your particular application interest calls for each utility controlled from one eight parameters read from common parameter file which must vms anyway your default directory some utilities will share parameters and use the same parameter for different purpose can get bit confusing setting series operations the standard pci environment contains scripting language very similar ibm basic but which allows you automate the process setting parameters for common complicated lengthy difficult series utility executions vms can also invoke utilities independently from dcl command procedure there also optional programming library which allows you write compiled language programs which can interface with read from write the pci data structures database file parameter file the pci software designed specifically for remote sensing images but requires such level operator expertise that once you reach the level where you can handle images you can figure out ways handle few other things well for instance the tape package offers utility for reading headerless multi band what adobe photoshop the macintosh calls raw data from tape number different interleave orders this turns out ideal for manipulating the graphic arts industry format would probably haven tried handle targa and above all however you have know what you doing you can screw the nth degree and have start over worth noting that the pci database file designed contain not only raster image data but vectors for overlaying map information entered via digitizing table land use and all manner other information observe that remote sensing image tape often contains all manner information about the spectral bands latitude longitude time date etc the original satellite pass all this can into the pci database believe that workstations the built display used vax systems other than workstations pci supports only couple specific third party display systems the name gould deanza seems come mind one personal workarounds was display program which would display directly from pci database file peritek vct bus bit directcolor display subsystem pci software could overkill your case seems designed for the very high end applications users those for whom mac largely doesn suffice although you know the gap getting smaller all the time probably coincidence that pci located canada country which does lot its land resource management via remote sensing believe the canadian government uses pci software for some its work these areas spam spectral analysis manager back jpl developed something called spam spectral analysis manager which got fair amount use the time that was designed for airborne imaging spectrometer imagery byte data pixels across lines bands modified version has since been developed for aviris airborne visual and infrared imaging spectrometer which uses much larger images spam does none these things rectification classification and ihs transformations filtering contrast enhancement overlays actually does limited filtering and contrast enhancement stretching spam aimed spectral identification and clustering the original spam uses sunview display the aviris version may require vicar executive based tae and may also require frame buffer can refer you people you interested pcw requires for display map among the mac gis systems map distributed john wiley clrview clrview dimensional visualization program designed exploit the real time capabilities silicon graphics iris computers this program designed provide core set tools aid the visualization information from cad and gis sources supports the integration many common but disperate data sources such dxf tin dem lattices and arc info coverages among others clrview can obtained from explorer dgp utoronto the directory pub sgi clrview contact rodney hoinkes head design applications centre for landscape research university toronto tel email rodney dgp utoronto end resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	apr computer graphics resource listing weekly part archive name graphics resources list part last modified computer graphics resource listing weekly posting part last change april many faqs including this listing are available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived graphics resources list part there mail server that machine you send mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing the keyword help without quotes the message body you can see many other places for this listing see the item places find the resource listing for more information items changed arranged the subjects order fir better the article limit plan changing headers soon careful only the resource listing keys are sure remain the subject line places find the resource listing graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems plotting packages molecular visualization stuff thinking making this post weekly what you think lines which got changed have the character front them added lines are prepended with removed lines are just removed use diff locate these changes this text copyright nikolaos fotis you can copy freely this file provided you keep this copyright notice intact compiled nikolaos nick fotis mail nfotis theseas ntua please contact for updates corrections etc disclaimer not guarantee the accuracy this document use your own risk this mainly guide for computer graphics software would suggest reading the comp graphics faq for image analysis stuff entitled date comp graphics frequently asked questions faq john grieggs grieggs jpl devvax jpl nasa gov the poster the official comp graphics faq have included comments within braces and nikolaos fotis contents the resource listing part places find the resource listing archie notes computer graphics ftp site list eric haines mail servers and graphics oriented bbses ray tracing graphics related mailing lists graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems commercial systems scene description languages solids description formats part plotting packages image analysis software image processing and display part scene generators geographical data maps data files scanners digitized data background imagery textures datafiles introduction rendering algorithms ray tracing buffer depth buffer others where can find the geometric data for the teapot space shuttle image annotation software scientific visualization stuff molecular visualization stuff gis geographical information systems software future additions please send updates info places find the resource listing this file crossposted comp graphics comp answers and news answers you can locate comp graphics you advised search comp answers news answers the latter groups usually are archived your site contact your sysadmin for more info these articles are posted comp graphics times month and are kept many places see below many faqs including this one are available the archive site pit manager mit edu alias rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived graphics resources list part there mail server that machine you send mail message mail server pit manager mit edu containing help the subject field the inria graphlib mail server mirrors this posting see under the subject mail servers the resource listing accesible through wais the machine enuxva eas asu edu port under the name graphics resources list got digest type line before every numbered item for purposes indexing another place that monitors the listing the maasinfo files for more info contact robert maas rem btr com yet another place search for faqs general the switch swiss academic and research network system switzerland interactive telnet nic switch login info move the info service usenet periodic postings directory search the index file typing and the word look for you may then just read the faq the faqs directory decide fetch one the following methods ftp login nic switch user anonymous and enter your internet style address after being prompted for password info service usenet periodic postings mail send mail rfc archive server nic switch archive server nic switch prmd switch admd arcom enter help the bodypart receive instructions information required the subject header line archie the archie service system locate ftp places for requested files appreciated that you will use archie before asking help the newsgroups archie servers archie aussie archie funet finland eur archie darmstadt ger huji israel archie kuis kyoto japan archie sogang korea archie ncu edu telnet twn archie doc ireland archie sura net usa archie unl edu password archie usa archie ans net usa archie rutgers edu usa archie new zealand connect archie server with telnet and type archie username get help type help you can get xarchie archie which are clients that call archie without the burden telnet session xarchie the contrib tape and archie comp sources misc vol get information how use archie via mail send mail with subject help archie account any above sites note janet pss users the united kingdom archie site accessible the janet host doc connect and specify archie the host name and archie the username notes excerpted from the faq article please not post mail messages saying can ftp could someone mail this there are number automated mail servers that will send you things like this response message there are number sites that archive the usenet sources newsgroups and make them available via email query system you send message automated server saying something like send comp sources unix fbm and few hours days later you get the file the mail computer graphics ftp site list eric haines computer graphics related ftp sites and maintainers compiled eric haines erich eye com and nick fotis nfotis theseas ntua ray tracers rayshade great ray tracer for workstations also for mac amiga pov son and successor dkb trace written compuservers for more questions call drew wells compuserve com dave buck david buck carleton art ray tracer with good range surface types part vort package dkbtrace another good ray tracer from all reports pcs mac amiga unix vms last two with previewer etc rtrace portugese ray tracer does bicubic patches csg text etc etc dos version for use with djgpp dos extender exists also mac port vivid shareware raytracer for pcs binary only author stephen coy coy ssc vax boeing com the source version available registered users direct from the author ray steve hollasch dimensional ray tracer renders hyperspheres hypertetrahedra hyperplanes and hyperparallelepipeds there separate real time wireframe viewer written called wire mtv qrt dbw yet more ray tracers some with interesting features distributed parallel raytracers xdart distributed ray tracer that runs under there are server binaries which work only decstations sparcs snakes series and next the clients are distributed binaries and source inetray network version rayshade needs sun rpc newer contact andreas thurnherr ant ips ethz prt pray parallel ray tracers volume renderers vrend cornell volume renderer from kartch devine caffey warren fortran radiosity and diffuse lighting renderers radiance ray tracer radiosity effects greg ward excellent shading models and physically based lighting simulation unix based though has been ported the amiga and the india indian radiosity package based radiance sgi rad interactive radiosity package that runs sgi machines with spaceball includes house database author guy moreillon moreillo ligsg epfl rad simple public domain radiosity package the solution can run stand alone any unix box but the walk through requires sgi author bernard kwok kwok yorku renderers which are not raytracers and graphics libraries sipp scan line buffer and phong shading renderer now uses the shadow buffer algorithm tcl sipp tcl command interface the sipp rendering program tcl sipp set tcl commands used programmed sipp without having write and compile code commands are used specify surfaces objects scenes and rendering options renders either ppm format utah raster toolkit rle format the photo widget the based applications vogle graphics learning environment device portable vogl sgi like library based vogle rend fast polygon renderer for intel and version not photorealistic but rather real time renderer xsharp dobb journal renderer source code with budget texture mapping modellers wireframe viewers vision mac modeler can output radiance rayshade files irit csg solid modeler with support for freeform surfaces wireframe viewer for wireframe graphics toolkit with source objects other stuff look major archives like wuarchive one such file dkit zip shareware front end modeler for povray still beta test french docs for now price for registering french francs save disabled some extra utilities dxf files for the registered version geometric viewers salem based package from dobkin for exploring mathematical structures geomview based package for looking and interactively manipulating objects from geometry center minnesota xyz geobench experimental geometry zurich workbench for geometric computation for macintosh computers wire wireframe previewer for steve hollasch ray see above data formats and data sets for ray tracing spd set procedural databases for testing ray tracers nff simplistic file format used spd off another file format lispy file format tddd imagine modeler format has converters for rayshade nff off etc also includes nice postscript object displayer some great models ttdddlib converts from tddd ttddd off nff rayshade imagine and vort objects also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views postscript registered users get tex font converter and superquadric surfaces generator glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com note ttdddlib also known dlib chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets includes volume sets for two heads brain knee electron density maps for rna and others written material rendering news collections articles ray tracing bib references articles ray tracing refer format rad bib references articles radiosity global illumination speer bib rick speer cross referenced bib postscript abstracts collection tom wilson abstracts many articles paper bank project various technical papers electronic form contact juhana kouhia tut online bibliography project the acm siggraph online bibliography project database over unique computer graphics and computational geometry references bibtex format available the computer graphics community research and educational resource the database located siggraph org users may download the bibtex files via ftp and peruse them offline telnet siggraph org and log biblio and interactively search the database for entries interest keyword for the people without internet access there also mail server send mail archive server siggraph org and the subject the body the message include the message send followed the topic and subtopic you wish good place start with the command send index which will give you date list available information additions corrections suggestions may directed the admin bibadmin siggraph org image manipulation libraries utah raster toolkit nice image manipulation tools pbmplus great package for image conversion and manipulation libtiff library for reading writing tiff images imagemagick package for display and interactive manipulation images uses its own format miff and includes some converters based image display manipulation and format converter xloadimage xli displays various formats screen khoros huge excellent system for image processing with visual programming interface and much much more uses windows fbm another set image manipulation tools somewhat old now img image manipulation displays screen bit old now xflick plays fli animation under xanim plays any resolution fli along with gif including gif animation extensions and amiga iff animations and iff pictures including ham ehb and color cycling sdsc sdsc image tools package san diego supercomputing center for image manipulation and conversion clrpaint bit paint program for sgi bit workstations and bit indigos libraries with code for graphics graphics gems iii code from the ever useful books spline patch tar spline patch ray intersection routines sean graves kaleido computation and display uniform polyhedra mirrored wuarchive this package computes and displays the metrical properties polyhedra author zvi har mail gauss technion means site official distributor most date north america please look for things your own continent first wuarchive wustl edu graphics graphics get contents file for roadmap graphics graphics objects tddd the ttddd objects and converters mirrors unix graphics rayshade ray tracer mtv ray tracer vort ray tracer fbm pbmplus popi utah raster toolkit mirrors msdos graphics dkb ray tracer fli raytracker demos pub rad tar sgi rad graphics graphics radiosity radiance and indian radiosity package msdos ddjmag ddj zip version xsharp with fast texture mapping there lots more including bibs graphics gems code off rtn radiance nff sipp spline patch intersection routines textbook errata source code from roy hall book illumination and color computer generated imagery etc graphics graphics packages kaleido kaleido george kyriazis kyriazis turing rpi edu princeton edu pub graphics note capital rayshade ray tracer and separate executable color quantization code spd news wilson abstracts bib utah raster toolkit newer fbm graphics gems iii code pub graphics directory salem and other stuff craig kolb cek princeton edu replaces weedeater math yale edu note the capital pub graphics because there trouble with princeton incoming area you can upload rayshade specific stuff weedeater math yale edu alfred ccs carleton pub dkbtrace dkb ray tracer pub pov ray pov ray pvray compuserve group ray tracer pov david buck david buck carleton avalon chinalake navy mil objects multiple formats utilities file format documents this site was created object repository for the net francisco dejesus dejesus archimedes chinalake navy mil omicron unc edu pub softlab chvrtd chapel hill volume rendering test datasets ftp com official ddj ftp repository xsharp peipa essex the pilot european image processing archive directory ipa synth something like that there are image synthesis packages adrian clarke alien essex barkley berkeley edu tcl extensions tsipp tar tcl sipp mark diekhans markd grizzly com markd neosoft com acs cps msu edu pub sass window fonts converter into rayshade polygons rayshade animation tool ron sass sass cps msu edu hobbes lbl gov radiance ray trace radiosity package greg ward gjward lbl gov geom umn edu pub geomview geomview contact for geomview software geom umn edu ftp arc umn edu pub gvl tar the latest version bob icol and raz source manual man pages and binaries for irix are included bob real time volume renderer pub contains also many volume datasets ken chin purcell ken ahpcrc umn edu ftp kpc com pub graphics holl steve hollasch thesis pub graphics ray ray pub graphics wire wire pub mirror avalon mirror avalon objects repository steve hollasch hollasch kpc com swedishchef lerc nasa gov programs hollasch ray sgi explorer modules and postscript manual etc zamenhof rice edu pub graphics formats various electronic documents about many object and image formats mark hall foo rice edu will apparently longer maintaining see ftp ncsa uiuc edu rascal ics utexas edu misc mac inqueue vision facet based modeller can output rayshade and radiance files ftp ncsa uiuc edu misc file formats graphics formats contains various image and object format descriptions many scivi tools various directories sgi alpha shape alvis tar alpha shape visualizer sgi machines only sgi polyview polyview interactive visualization and analysis geometrical structures quincey koziol koziol ncsa uiuc edu tucana noao edu iraf the iraf astronomy package ftp ipl rpi edu sigma erich spd images and haines thesis images pub images various and bit image stills and sequences kevin martin sigma ipl rpi edu ftp psc edu pub tar lispy scene language renderers joel welling welling seurat psc edu ftp lbl gov pbmplus tar rayshade data files jef poskanzer jef ace lbl gov george lbl gov pub ccs lib ccs tar ccs complex conversion system standard software interface for image processing hanauma stanford edu pub graphics comp graphics best comp graphics very extensive ray tracers dbw mtv qrt and more joe dellinger joe hanauma stanford edu ftp net graphics irit news back issues not complete nurbs models other graphics related material graphics jpeg jpegsrc tar independent jpeg group package for reading and writing jpeg files freebie engin umich edu utah raster toolkit spencer thomas thomas eecs umich edu export lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus image magick xloadimage xli img lots more pub untarred mit demos gpc ncga graphics performance characterization gpc suite life pawl rpi edu pub ray kyriazis stochastic ray tracer george kyriazis kyriazis turing rpi edu utah edu pub utah raster toolkit nurbs databases jamie painter jamie utah edu gatekeeper dec com pub dec off tar off models also gpc benchmark files planned but not checked randi rost rost kpc com hubcap clemson edu pub amiga incoming imagine stuff for the amiga imagine turbo silver ray tracers pub amiga ttdddlib ttdddlib pub amiga incoming imagine objects many objects glenn lewis glewis pcocd intel com pprg eece unm edu pub khoros khoros image processing package huge but great danielle argiro danielle bullwinkle unm edu expo lcs mit edu contrib pbmplus portable bitmap package poskbitmaptars bitmap collection raveling img xloadimage jef poskanzer jef well venera isi edu pub img tar and img tar some image manipulation pub images rgb separation photos paul raveling raveling venera isi edu ucsd edu graphics utah rle toolkit pbmplus fbm databases mtv dbw and other ray tracers world map other stuff not updated much recently castlab engr wisc edu pub tar pub xdart xdart mark spychalla spy castlab engr wisc edu sgi com graphics tiff tiff spec libtiff software and pics also much sgi and related stuff opengl manuals sam leffler sam sgi com supercedes okeeffe berkeley edu for the libtiff stuff surya waterloo edu graphics fbm ray tracers ftp sdsc edu sdscpub sdsc ftp brl mil brl cad information how get the brl cad package ray tracer images various test images texture library has also begun here lee butler butler brl mil cicero umass edu texture temp grayscale brodatz textures from julien flack julien scs leeds karazm math edu pub graphics rtabs shar wilson abstracts pray eric townsend jet karazm math edu jet nas nasa gov ftp pitt edu users qralston images bit image archive small james ralston crawford qralston pitt edu ftp cornell edu pub vis vrend sunee waterloo edu pub raytracers vivid rend sunee uwaterloo archive umich edu msdos graphics graphics stuff msdos graphics raytrace vivid apple apple com pub archivevol prt research att com netlib graphics spd package polyhedra polyhedra databases you don have ftp use the netlib automatic mail replier uucp research netlib internet netlib ornl gov send one line message send index for more info send haines from graphics get the spd siggraph org siggraph archive site publications online bibliography project conference proceedings various electronic formats papers panels siggraph video review information and order forms other stuff various directories automatic mailer archive server siggraph org send index ftp unc edu pub reaction diffusion greg turk work reaction diffusion textures windows code siggraph avs ncsc org ftp volvis volume datasets from the boston workshop volume visualization this site also the international avs center terry myerson tvv ncsc org uvacs virginia edu pub suit demo sparc dec etc suit simple user interface toolkit finger suit uvacs virginia edu get detailed instructions nexus yorku pub reports radiosity code tar rad pub reports radiosity thesis rad msc thesis this site will changed ftp yorku the near future milton washington edu ftp public veos veos virtual reality and distributed applications prototyping environment for unix veos software support veos support hitl washington edu oldpublic fly fly visualization software demo that package built for fly throughs from various datasets near real time there are binaries for many platforms also much other virtual reality stuff zug csmil umich edu xpecs files lcd glass shutter for amiga computers great for stuff sugrfx acs syr edu various stereo pair images has closed down sunsite unc edu pub academic computer science virtual reality final copy the sugrfx acs syr edu archive that ceased exist contains powerglove code papers images and irc research material jonathan magid jem sunsite unc edu archive cis ohio state edu pub siggraph code for siggraph course procedural modeling and rendering techniques david ebert ebert cis ohio state edu lyapunov ucsd edu this machine considered the repository for preprints and programs for nonlinear dynamics signal processing and related subjects and fractals course matt kennel mbk inls ucsd edu cod nosc mil pub grid tex ascii short survey methods interpolate and contour bivariate data ics uci edu honig various stereo pair images movie animates movie display bit and mono with digital subtraction taurus nps navy mil pub dabro cyberware demo tar human head data pioneer unm edu pub texture maps hans buf grayscale test textures aerial swatches brodatz textures synthetic swatches space planetary image repository provides access roms with data images line time pub info beginner info here you should start browsing colby kraybill opus pioneer unm edu brown edu srgp sphigs for more info srgp sphigs mail software distribution graphtext brown edu pdb pdb bnl gov has data about various organic molecules bonds between the different atoms etc atomic coordinates and load other stuff are contained the ent files but the actual atomic dimemsions seem missing you could convert these data pov rayshade etc biome bio pub art some renoir paintings escher pictures etc umanitoba specmark sample set images from the images from the edge rom images atomic landscapes advanced semiconductors superconductors and experimental surface chemistry among others contact ruskin umanitoba explorer dgp toronto edu pub sgi clrpaint clrpaint pub sgi clrview clrview tool that aids visualization gis datasets may formats like dxf dem arc info etc ames arc nasa gov pub space cdrom images from magellan and viking missions etc get pub space index first pub spacelink has most the spacelink service data see below mail server available send mail archive server ames arc nasa gov ames archive server with subject help send space index without the quotes peter yee yee ames arc nasa gov pubinfo jpl nasa gov images other data etc from jpl missions modem access parity data bits stop bit newsdesk jplpost jpl nasa gov phone spacelink msfc nasa gov passwd guest space graphics and gif images from nasa planetary probes and the hubble telescope main function support for teachers you can telnet also this site dial access baud bits parity stop bit stsci edu hubble space telescope stuff images and other data read the readme first pete reppert reppert stsci edu chris dea odea stsci edu pit manager mit edu pub usenet news answers the land faqs graphics and pictures directories particular interest also available from mail server pit manager mit edu sending mail message containing help uucp archive avatar news back issues for details write kory hamzeh kory avatar avatar com europe nic funet pub sci papers paper bank project including pete shirley entire thesis with pics wilson abstracts pub misc cia worldmap cia world data bank comp graphics research archive india and much much more juhana kouhia tut dasun epfl radiance good for european sites but doesn carry the add ons that are available for radiance isy liu pub sipp sipp tar sipp scan line buffer and phong shading renderer jonas yngvesson jonas isy liu irisa ipsc pray ray tracer spd nff many non spd nff format scenes rayshade data files didier badouel badouel irisa irisa may have disappeared phoenix oulu fli raytracker animation files vga also big flis rayscene demos americans check wuarchive first more animations come jari kahkonen hole phoenix oulu jyu pub graphics ray traces many ray tracers including pray dbw dkb mtv qrt rayshade some news nff files jari toivanen toivanen jyu garbo uwasa much stuff etc source contour fortran program contour scattered data using linear triangle based interpolation asterix inescn pub rtrace rtrace nffutils tar nff utilities for rtrace medical data cat etc converters nff autocad nff autolisp code autocad scn rtrace language converter and other goodies antonio costa acc asterix inescn vega hut graphics rtn archive ray tracers mtv qrt others nff some models was shut down months ago check under nic funet nfotis sun nluug pub graphics raytrace dbw microray mtv etc unix hensa misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar cgm viewer and converter there mail server also mail archive unix hensa with the message body send misc unix ralcgm ralcgm tar maeglin luth graphics raytracing prt others doc wilson abstracts vivid ftp berlin pub unix graphics rayshade inputs tar rayshade aquarium americans check princeton edu first heiko schlichting heiko math berlin maggia ethz pub inetray inetray and sun rpc code andreas thurnherr ant ips ethz osgiliath dth pub amiga graphics radiance amiga port radiance per bojsen bojsen ithil dth ftp informatik uni oldenburg pov raytracer mirrored wuarchive has many goods for pov pub dkbtrace incoming polyray polyray raytracer pub dkbtrace incoming ftp uni pub amiga raytracing imagine mirror the hubcap imagine files neptune inf ethz xyz xyz geobench peter schorn schorn inf ethz iamsun unibe graphics graphtal system interpreter christoph streit streit iam unibe amiga physik unizh amiga gfx graphics stuff for the amiga computer stesis eso org line access huge astronomical database login starcat passwd decnet stesis the space telescope european coordination facility benoit pirenne bpirenne eso org phone middle east gauss technion kaleida australia gondwana ecr pub vort art ray tracer vogle wilson ray tracing abstracts pub contrib artscenes art scenes from italy pub images haines haines thesis images graphics gems code spd nff off databases nff and off previewers plus some and bit images and lots other stuff pub rad tar sgi rad bernie kirby bernie ecr munnari pub graphics vort tar vort art csg and algebraic surface ray tracer vogle pub dbw pbmplus graphics room tar art scenes from italy david hook dgh munnari marsh curtin edu pub graphics bibliography facial animation pub graphics bibliography morph pub graphics bibliography stuff about facial animation morphing and user interfaces pub fascia fred parke fascia program valerie hall val lillee curtin edu oceania asia ccu aukland ftp mac architec vision facet based modeller can output rayshade files many other neat things for macs paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland scslwide sony ftp sgi facial animation steve franks site for facial animation steve franks stevef csl sony stevef umr edu mail servers and graphics oriented bbses please check first with the ftp places above with archie help don overuse mail servers there are some troubles with wrong return addresses many these mail servers have command like path valid return mail address get hint for sending back you stuff dec ftpmail send one line message ftpmail decwrl dec com without subject field and having line containing the word help you should get back message detailing the relevant procedures you must follow order get the files you want note that the reply answer command your mailer will not work for this message any other mail you receive from ftpmail send requests ftpmail send original mail message not reply complaints should sent the ftpmail request uucp dec com address rather than postmaster since decwrl postmaster not responsible for fixing ftpmail problems bitftp for bitnet sites only there bitftp pucc send one line help message this address for more info lightwave mail based file server mail based file server for objects bit jpeg images gif images and image maps now online for all those with internet mail access the server the official archive site for the lightwave mail list and contains many and shareware graphics utilities for several computer platforms including amiga atari ibm and macintosh the server resides bbs called the graphics bbs the bbs operational hours day days week the phone number has upgraded its modem hayes ultra bis bis which has speeds from bps bps you would like submit objects scenes images the server please pack uuencode and then mail the files the address server bobsbox rent com for information obtaining files from the server send mail message the address file server graphics rent com with the following the body the message help dir and help file describing how use the server and complete directory listing will sent you via mail now includes the cyberware head and shouders ttddd format check out only you can use ftp nfotis inria graphlib pierre jancene and sabine coquillart launched the inria graphlib mail server few months ago echo help mail inria graphlib inria will give you quick summary what inria graphlib contains and how browse among its files echo send contents mail inria graphlib inria will return the extended summary other example echo send cgrl from misc mail inria graphlib inria will return the computer graphics resource listing mirrored from comp graphics bbses there are many bbses that store datafiles etc etc but guide these beyond the scope this listing and the resources the author you can point internet mail accessible bbses that carry interesting stuff send info studio amiga modelling and ray tracing specific bbs hours meg online from jeff walkup pwappy well the castle bis bis mnp pacifica dang close san francisco california usa the new user password tao oin base the castle anim video which the sig lazerus bob lindabury operates bbs see above the entry for the graphics bbs you can call ray ray tracing related bbs chicago suburbs digital pixel sysop mark mcng descartes waterloo edu based toronto ontario canada phone storage space megs modem type baud zyxel bis mnp access fee none free system supported dos amiga mac netmail currently echo mail topics raytracing fractals graphics programming cad any comp graphics related from david tiberio dtiberio sunysb edu amiga graphics bbs long island new york running hours bis with megs line also subscribe mailing lists which originate from our bbs with more added soon these include lightwave imagine real ray tracing database files include imagine objects renderings scalable fonts music modules sound samples demos animations utilities text databases and pending lightwave objects the graphics alternative the graphics alternative cerrito running hours day hst bis with online and user base tga runs two nodes node for public access and includes free day trial subscription tga the west coast host for pcgnet the profesional cad and graphics network supporting nodes across the continental alaska new zealand australia france and the tga file database includes dos executables for pov vivid rtrace rayshade polyray and others tga also has numerous graphics utilities viewers and conversion utilities registered vivid users can also download the latest vivid aeta code from special vivid conference from scott bethke sbathkey access digex com the intersection bbs this bbs dedicated supporting animators the system provided free charge and not commercialized anyway users are given full access the first call features usenet news internet mail fidonet echo netmail megs online bis bis modem platforms interest amiga the videotoaster macintosh dos unix workstations sun sgi etc atari from alfonso hermida afanh robots gsfc nasa gov square bbs maryland supports raytracers such pov and vivid the bbs runs off mhz megs hard drive and rom now runs bps this will change soon topics graphics programming animation raytracing programming general from lynn falkow roxxie delphi com vertech design graphic connection portland oregon bis the bbs aside from carrying typical bbs services like message bases all topic specific and files cad and graphics related hundreds megabytes also offers material texture files that are full color seamlessly tiling photo realistic images there are samples available first time callers the bbs subscription system although callers have hours before they must subscribe and there are several subscription rates available people interested materials can subscribe the library addition basic subscription rate and can use their purchased time download whichever materials they wish ray tracing graphics related mailing lists imagine modeling and animation system for the amiga send subscription requests imagine request email paramax com send material imagine email paramax com dave wickard has substituted steve worley the maintenance the mailing list please note that the unisys com address longer valid lightwave for the amiga part newtek video toaster send subscription requests lightwave request bobsbox rent com send material lightwave bobsbox rent com bob lindabury toaster send subscription requests listserv karazm math edu with body subscribe toaster list real another modeling and animation system for the amiga subscribe send mail containing the body subscribe real your full name listserv uwa edu rayshade send subscription requests rayshade request princeton edu send material rayshade users princeton edu craig kolb alladin for the amiga send subscription requests subscribe xamiga linet org and the body the message write alladin username domain radiance greg ward the author sends registered via mail users digests his correspodence with them notes about fixes updates etc his address gjward lbl gov rend send subscription requests rend request sunee waterloo edu send material rend sunee waterloo edu pov ray dkb raytracers subscribe send mail containing the body subscribe dkb your full name listserv trearn bitnet send material dkb trearn bitnet mailing list for massively parallel rendering send subscription requests render request icase edu send material render icase edu graphics editors public domain free and shareware systems vision mac based program written paul bourke pdbourke ccu aukland the program can used generate models directly the rayshade and radiance file formats polygons only shareware and listed the ftp list brl solid modeling system for most environments including sgi and has csg and nurbs plus support for non manifold geometry whatever you can get free via ftp signing and returning the relevant license found ftp brl mil uses ray tracing for engineering analyses contact carla moyer tel fax cad dist brl mil mail snail mail brl cad distribution surviac aberdeen satellite office old philadelphia road suite aberdeen usa irit constructive solid geometry csg modeling program for and includes freeform surface support free see ftp list for where find surfmodel solid modeling program for written turbo pascal ken van camp available from simtel msdos srfmodl directory noodles from cmu namely fritz printz and levent gursoz elg styx edrc cmu edu based non manifold topology ask them for more info don know they give away xyz xyz interactive editor builder written dale stocker create objects for the surfacemodel automove and dkb raytracer packages xyz free and can found for example simtel msdos surfmodl xyz zip dos only dmod msdos program check barnacle erc clarkson edu pub msdos graphics dmod undocumented file format dmod micah silverman pierrepoint ave postdam new york tel northcad shareware msdos cad ncad zip simtel undocumented file format vertex amiga shareware send check money order the art machine nickolas sterling heights usa addition the now standard file formats including lightwave imagine sculpt turbo silver geo and wavefront this release offers professional and rayshade support rayshade supported only the primitive triangle but you can easily include this output your rayshade scripts the latest demo version available fred fish for more information contact the author alex deburie sycom org phone icoons amiga spline based object modeller icoons interactive coons path editor amiga physik unizh gfx icoons lzh free under the gnu licence and requires fpu the program has look feel which cross between journeyman and imagine and generates objects ttddd format possible load journeyman objects into icoons the program can used convert jman objects imagine format author helge rasmussen her compel phone fax also fred fish disk series nfotis protocad ver from trius shareware wsmr simtel army mil and oak oakland edu pcad zip for pcs has this menu layout file file handling load save import xport draw draw objects line circle box draw objects mesh sphere block edit editing features copy move surface modify objects revolve xtrude sweep image image zooming features update window half option global defaults grid toggles axis plot print drawing picture image render shade objects frame lighting tune layer layer options select active layer set colors sculptura runs under windows and outputs pov files demo can found wuarchive wustl edu mirrors win demo demo zip author michael gibson gibsonm stein washington edu commercial systems alpha spline based modeling program written university utah features splines trimmed nurbs support for boolean operations sweeps bending warping flattening etc groups objects and transformations extensible object types applications include machining animation utilities dimensioning fem analysis etc rendering subsystem with support for animations support the following platforms and sgi machines and irix sun sparcstation sunos licensing and distribution handled egs glenn mcminn president engineering geometry systems east south temple suite salt lake city mcminn utah edu educational pricing the charge per platform you may run the system many different workstations that type you wish for each platform there also licensing fee for portable standard lisp psl which bundled with the system you need obtain additional license from the university utah for psl from the following address professor robert kessler computer science department university utah salt lake city utah egs can handle the licensing psl for institutions for usd nominal fee nfotis vertigo they have educational institution program the package used the industrial design architectural scientific visualization educational broadcast imaging and post production fields they quoting from letter sent nfotis donate fully configured vertigo graphics software worth over usd per package qualified educational institutions for licencing any number silicon graphics personal iris power series workstations you use iris indigo station will also licence our vertigo revolution software worth usd you are interested participating this program please send letter mail fax your institution letterhead briefly outlining your potential uses for vertigo together with the following information unix version model and number sgi systems peripheral devices third party software participants will asked contribute usd per institution cover costs the manual administration and shipping recommend that vertigo users subscribe our technical support services for annual fee you will receive technical assistance our support hotline bug fixes software upgrades and manual updates for educational institution will waive the administration fee support purchased the annual support fee plus the following cost for additional machines number machines additional cost per machine there also day training program nfotis contact vertigo technology inc suite west georgia vancouver canada phone fax does anyone know such offers from tdi alias softimage wavefront etc this would very interesting part nfotis padl basically solid modeling kernel top which you build your application available license from cornell programmable automation cornell university engineering and theory center ithaca license fees are very low for educational institutions and gov agencies internal commercial licenses and dissemination licenses are available for information packet write the above address send your address marisa cpa cornell edu richard marisa acis from spatial technology solid modelling kernel callable from heard that many universities got free copies from the company the person contact regarding acis academic institutions scott owens mail sdo spatial com and their address spatial technology inc bldg boulder phone fax movie byu cquel byu basically understanding this fem pre and post proccessor system fairly old today but still serves some people mech eng depts now superseded from cquel byu pronounced sequel that complete modelling animation and visualization package runs the usual workstation environments sun dec sgi ibm and others you can get demo version days trial period either sending usd their address blank tape costs for full run time licence contact engineering computer graphics lab clyde building brigham young univ provo phone mail cquel byu edu twixt soon add stuff about get reply fax voxblast volume renderer marketed vaytek inc fairfield iowa phone running pcs with fpu least call vaytek for more info voxelbox volume renderer for windows features include direct ray traced volume rendering color and alpha mapping gradient lighting animation reflections and shadows runs higher with least bit video card svga fine under windows costs contact jaguar software inc main suite winchester jwp world std com john poduska scene description languages nff neutral file format eric haines very simple there are some procedural database generators the spd package and many objects floating various ftp sites there also previewer written starbase from haines also there one written vogle you can use any the devices vogle can output check sites carrying vogle like gondwana ecr off object file format from dec randy rost rost kpc com the object archive server seems mothballed future version remove the ref nfotis available also through their mail server obtain help about using this service send message with subject line containing only the word help and null message body object archive server decwrl dec com for ftp places get see the relevant place there off previewer for sgi machines called off preview godzilla cgl rmit there are previewers for xview and sunview also gondwana tddd library objects with translators from off nff rayshade imagine vort objects edited copy the announcement follows from raytracing news new library objects available via ftp steve worley worley cup portal com have assembled set over objects binary format called tddd these objects range from human figures airplanes from semi trucks lampposts these objects are all freely distributable and most have readmes that describe them order convert these objects human readable format file with the specification tddd included the directory with the objects there also shareware system called ttdddlib officially hubcap clemson edu that will convert ala pbm from various object formats imagine ttddd extension tddd off nff rayshade vort source included for amiga unix executables for the amiga also outputs framemaker mif files and isometric views postscript from pittsburgh supercomputing center the uses lisp with slight extensions store three dimensional models simple lisp interpreter included with the release there need have access any vendor lisp run this software the mouse driven user interfaces for motif open look and silicon graphics and the drawp subroutine library for generating without ever looking the underlying lisp the software currently supports nine renderers they are painter painter algorithm dore silicon graphics inc language generic phigs sun phigs dec phigs rayshade art ray tracer from vort package and pixar renderman the code available via anonymous ftp from the machines ftp psc edu directory pub and nic funet directory pub graphics programs renderman pixar renderman not free call pixar for details solids description formats eec esprit project cad cad interfaces has developed neutral file format for transfer cad data curves surfaces and solid models between cad systems and from cad caa computer aided analysis cam computer aided manufacturing iges now tries define standard tranfer solid models brep and csg the current standard number ansi for documentation you might want contact nancy flower ncga technical services and standards ext and the cost this standard not available electronic format pdes step this slowly emerging standard tries encompass not only the geometrical information but also for things like fem etc the main bodies besides this standard are nist and darpa you can get more information about pdes sending mail nptserver cme nist gov and putting the line send index the body not the subject area the message the people rutherford appleton lab are also working step tools they have express compiler and exchange file parser both available source form and for free for research purposes soon they will also have express based database system for the tools contact mike mead phone fax mail inf mcsun uknet rlinf inf nsfnet relay end part the resource listing nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	ellipse from its offset everyone since some people quickly solved the problem determining sphere from points suddenly recalled problem which how find the ellipse from its offset for example given points the offset can you find the original ellipse analytically spent two months solving this problem using analytical method last year but failed under the pressure had use other method nonlinear programming technique deal with this problem approximately any ideas will greatly appreciated please post here let the others share our interests yeh usc
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac cellar org tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations think apda has something called macwireframe which full wire frame and supposedly hidden line removal library think weighs but been wrong order magnitude before libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat can relate that jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe clear disc you can seek forever
comp.graphics	yhe one who wants fonts pov polyray vivid everyone who wants fonts vivid pov polyray the borland bgi font converter vvfont zip this program can found ftp informatik uni oldenburg directory pub dkbtrace utils also wuarchive has mirrored this site directory graphics graphics mirrors ftp informatik uni oldenburg pub dkbtrace utils there are more nice utilities present this directory new version polyray for those asked for can found the same sites but the directory incoming instead utils ply also this directory povshell and could found have nive raytrace time peter peter vanderveen visser wau department genetics agricultural university wageningen the netherlands
comp.graphics	newss working project where are going including both still and moving grapics within database course jpeg and mpeg come mind the formats choice for the various files however from what read the net seems there are several different forms each these what want settle file format which can count being standard format years from now know apple going support quicktime the new power and this may the format choice what format does apple quicktime use for their products guess some kind mpeg for their motion picture any different than standard mpeg files thanx for any info art pollarda xray byu edu
comp.graphics	viewer wanted looking for public domain viewer does not have very fancy the features want simple wireframe display flat shading simple transformation would nice have hidden line any information appreciated
comp.graphics	cview answers apr imag schaefer imag imag arno schaefer writes sorry bryan this not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls will switch vga mode without xwindows least possible write gif viewer under linux however don think that there exists similar svga package and viewing gifs not very nice vgalib amazing guess was lost all those subdirs thanks for correcting doesn sound very appealing though only glad wasn something major missed thanks
comp.graphics	cview answers article lerr rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes stupid question but what will cview run and where can get still need gif viewer for linux without windows thanks boy there way hell you are going able view gifs any other graphics linux without windows love linux because easy learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with windows simple painless required have windows you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like etc sorry bryan this not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls will switch vga mode without xwindows least possible write gif viewer under linux however don think that there exists similar svga package and viewing gifs not very nice best regards arno arno schaefer ensimag annee email schaefer silene imag tel
comp.graphics	need specs info apple quicktime need get the specs least very verbose interpretation the specs for quicktime technical articles from magazines and references books would nice too also need the specs format usable unix dos system can much with the quicktime stuff they have ftp apple com its present format thanks advance james murray add sciences sdsu edu
comp.graphics	genoa graphics board drivers ftp site well have opened ftp site for getting the latest software drivers for genoa graphics cards here how access ftp login ftp password ftp pub genoa binary prompt hash now you wanna have the latest drivers for the board series mget quit this the sequence get the drivers you have any further question please email best regards stefan hartmann email harti mikro berlin
comp.graphics	cview answers levt rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes qlobb tuegate tue renew blade stack urc tue rene walter writes most info regarding dangers reading from floppy disks omitted unrevcoverable way careful incredibly poor programming for program this nevertheless important bug that needs squashed merely pointing out that was probably overlooked while serious one must keep mind that will probably affect most the targeted users cview don use cview anymore but saw that one had explaind this bug the thread here goes not the fault cview dos you leave file open floppy drive then change the disk and something which updates closes that file you have good chance getting part the directory and fat from the other disk written the new disk this has always been true and has destroyed data under other programs not just cview the only thing cview can improve the situation try not leave files open unless actively using them reading and decoding kevin martin sigma rahul net gotta get another hat
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed this may fairly routine request here but looking for fast polygon routine used game have one that works right now but its very slow could anyone point one pref asm that fairly well documented and flexible thanx lucas
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed article news cso uiuc edu osprey cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes this may fairly routine request here but looking for fast polygon routine used game fast polygon routine what
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr mercury unt edu mcmains unt edu sean mcmains writes wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup just with built mmu don even think that moto manufactures them ian romanick dancing fool epsilon were the contained thoughts opinions epn ntsc quality best psu would probably not agree with them look don know anything about douche but know anti freeze when see the dead milkmen
comp.graphics	windows graphics viewer howdy all was wondering people could mail their opinions the various graphics viewers available for windows working project set our scanner and write documentation how use and would nice have snazzy image viewer look and maybe even edit the image you just scanned the file formats looking for gif jpeg tiff pcx whatever other major file formats there are thanks lot for your help grant grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu phone fax the days old when knights were bold and women were too cautious those gallant days when women were women and men were really obnoxious
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cpu doesn help much either understand supposedly variation running something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites snip the not ricardo the animation playback which lawrence was referring earlier post plain old quicktime with the compact video codec seen digitized video some apple early commercials precise running centris about fps very nicely bit color depth would expect that using the same algorithm risc processor should able approach full screen full motion animation though you implied the processor will taxed more with highly dynamic material snip booth there walked and they were showing real time video capture using radious supermac card digitize and make right the spot quicktime movies think the quicktime they were using was the old one they digitized guy talking there something played back quite nicely and real time the guy then expanded the window resized think and the frame rate decreased enough notice that wasn fps about fps anymore dropped like fps then increased just bit more and dropped fps then asked him what mac was using was using quadra don know what model and was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back the same speed even lcii well spoiled his claim say since quadra mac was having little bit trouble and this wasn even from the hardisk this was from memory could that you saw either newer version quicktime some hardware assisted centris another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind accelerator don misunderstand just want clarify this the box based arm risc processor one two custom graphics chips dsp double speed cdrom and ram vram little fuzzy the breakdown the graphics chips and ram vram capacity was demonstrated recent gathering the electronic cafe santa monica from mical amiga lynx fame and hal josephson were there talk about the machine and their plan got see the unit displaying full screen movies using the compactvideo codec which was nice very little blockiness showing clips from jaws and backdraft and very high frame rate boot like fps note however that the screen resolution compactvideo pretty amazing also wanted point out that quicktime does indeed slow down when one dynamically resizes material was stated above sure the material had been compressed the large size then would play back fine have and this quite bit the price generality personally don use the dynamic sizing movies often ever but playing back stuff its original size plenty quick the latest machines not sure how centris mhz stacks against the mhz arm the box obviously the arm faster but how much rob barris quicksilver software inc rbarris orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph rourke writes article news cso uiuc edu osprey cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes this may fairly routine request here but looking for fast polygon routine used game fast polygon routine what draw polygons course its vga mode game done and asm need faster way draw concave polygons that the method have right now which very slow lucas
comp.graphics	cview answers article rahul net bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes apr imag schaefer imag imag arno schaefer writes sorry bryan this not quite correct remember the vgalib package that comes with linux sls will switch vga mode without xwindows least possible write gif viewer under linux however don think that there exists similar svga package and viewing gifs not very nice vgalib amazing guess was lost all those subdirs thanks for correcting doesn sound very appealing though only glad wasn something major missed tommy frandsen vgalib which probably what you talking about will the standard vga modes some tweaked modes and then the tseng super vga modes have and viewing gif have lousy small monitor with dpg view linux think had change some constants the dpg view sources make use the modes vgalib sources seem designed for easy addition new super vga support each mode array register values and there program that dumps array declaration this kind describing the current mode haven tried though btw version vgalib kennu mits mdata try linux free unix linus torvalds for read comp linux ask email you like for more information you can run tex gnu emacs and much more top nice posix environment
comp.graphics	anyone know use rayshade out there using rayshade the computers here and like input from other users and perhaps swap some ideas could post uuencoded gifs here ray code anyone interested having trouble coming with colors that are metallic brass steel from the rgb values you the machines check out fineman rle files rle stein washington edu for some what got dan
comp.graphics	fake virtual reality the most ridiculous example exploitation seen far the virtual reality clothing company which recently opened vancouver far can tell just another chic clothes spot although would interesting they were selling virtual clothing mail you want dig their phone and you can probably get some promotional lit
comp.graphics	video out getting ready buy multimedia workstation and would like little advice need graphics card that will video and out under windows was originally thinking targa but that doesn work under windows what cards should looking into thanks craig forgive divine craig williamson airhead human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers
comp.graphics	windows screen grabber howdy all where could find screen grabber program for windows writing some documentation and would very helpful include sample screens into the document please mail don usualy follow this group thanks lot grant grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu phone fax the human brain like enormous fish flat and slimy and has gills through which can see monty python
comp.graphics	rumours about article news service uci edu rbarris orion oac uci edu robert barris writes got see the unit displaying full screen movies using the compactvideo codec which was nice very little blockiness showing clips from jaws and backdraft and very high frame rate boot like fps acorn replay running mhz arm processor the arm about slower than the arm does this software off standard rom bit colour about the same resolution what the computer only has bit colour support real time dithering too the supposed have couple dsps the arm being used for housekeeping not sure how centris mhz stacks against the mhz arm the box obviously the arm faster but how much mhz arm should clock around arm mips say flat out depends really the surrounding system and whether you are talking arm arm the latter has cache and essential run this kind speed with slower memory stop saying things there cos hopefully working for arm after graduation mike don pay heed what reps from philips say the doesn beat the pants off then eat this postscript michael williams part computer science tripos mjw phx cam university cambridge cymdeithas genedlaethol traddodiad troi teigrod mwythus ben waered
comp.graphics	dicta australian pattern recognition society call for papers dicta conference digital imaging computing techniques and applications location macquarie theatre macquarie university sydney date december dicta the second biennial national conference the australian pattern recognition society this event will provide opportunity for any persons with interest computer vision digital image processing analysis and other aspects pattern recognition become informed about contemporary developments the area exchange ideas establish contacts and share details their own work with others the following invited speakers will provide specialised presentations prof gabor herman university pennsylvania medical imaging prof hodgson massey university new zealand computer vision prof dominique juelin centre morphologie mathematique paris mathematical morphology prof john richards aust defence force academy canberra remote sensing phillip robertson csiro division information technology canberra interactive visualisation the conference will concentrate but not limited the following areas image processing computer vision and object recognition motion analysis morphology medical imaging fuzzy logic and neural networks image coding machine vision and robotics enhancement and restoration enhancement and restoration visualisation industrial applications software and hardware tools papers are sought for presentation the conference and publication the conference proceedings submission for peer review should consist extended abstract words doubled spaced text summarizing the technical aspects the paper and any results that will quoted final papers should limited more than pages text and illustrations camera ready form four copies the abstract should sent dicta tony adriaansen csiro division wool technology box ryde nsw australia important dates abstract due june acceptance notified august final paper due october social program the conference dinner will held the thursday december other social activities are being arranged situated beautiful harbour sydney has many and varied places interest the opera house and harbour bridge are just two the well known landmarks harbour cruises city tours the blue mountains run daily can provide further information request accommodation accommodation within min walking distance available ranging from college style star hotel facilities information will supplied upon request conference fees before sep after sep aprs members aprs student members others conference dinner dec advanced registration name organisation address phone fax email current member aprs not current member aprs please send information accommodation enclose cheque for please send the above form dicta tony adriaansen csiro division wool technology box ryde nsw australia the cheques should made payable dicta for further information contact tony adriaansen athula ginigie email dicta uts edu aprs member iapp the international association for pattern recognition inc affiliated member the international federation for information processing
comp.graphics	what the fastest windows video article apr trentu ayounes trentu amro younes trent university peterborough canada writes have the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version must admit has received bad press but that was due the faulty drivers had magazine seems impressed with the ati card their most recent reviews the april issue they rate the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version their editor choice they noted that the drivers had improved since they tested the isa version january cuyler
comp.graphics	weitek jgreen amber joe green writes anyone know about the weitek graphics chip you have weitek address phone number like get some information about this chip yes very interested this chip please follow email bill egan cavalier graphics houston texas email cavalier blkbox com
comp.graphics	jpeg image compression frequently asked questions archive name jpeg faq last modified april this faq article discusses jpeg image compression suggestions for additions and clarifications are welcome new since version april new versions image archiver and pmjpeg for this article includes the following sections what jpeg why use jpeg when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif how well does jpeg compress images what are good quality settings for jpeg where can get jpeg software canned software viewers etc source code what all this hoopla about color quantization how does jpeg work what about lossless jpeg why all the argument about file formats how recognize which file format have and what about what about arithmetic coding does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg sections are basic info that every jpeg user needs know sections are advanced info for the curious this article posted every weeks you can always find the latest version the news answers archive rtfm mit edu ftp fetch pub usenet news answers jpeg faq you don have ftp send mail mail server rtfm mit edu with body send usenet news answers jpeg faq many other faq articles are also stored this archive for more instructions use the archive send mail the same address with the words help and index quotes separate lines you don get reply the server may misreading your return address add line such path myname mysite specify your correct mail address reply what jpeg jpeg pronounced jay peg standardized image compression mechanism jpeg stands for joint photographic experts group the original name the committee that wrote the standard jpeg designed for compressing either full color gray scale digital images natural real world scenes does not work well non realistic images such cartoons line drawings jpeg does not handle black and white bit per pixel images nor does handle motion picture compression standards for compressing those types images are being worked other committees named jbig and mpeg respectively jpeg lossy meaning that the image you get out decompression isn quite identical what you originally put the algorithm achieves much its compression exploiting known limitations the human eye notably the fact that small color details aren perceived well small details light and dark thus jpeg intended for compressing images that will looked humans you plan machine analyze your images the small errors introduced jpeg may problem for you even they are invisible the eye useful property jpeg that the degree lossiness can varied adjusting compression parameters this means that the image maker can trade off file size against output image quality you can make extremely small files you don mind poor quality this useful for indexing image archives making thumbnail views icons etc etc conversely you aren happy with the output quality the default compression setting you can jack the quality until you are satisfied and accept lesser compression why use jpeg there are two good reasons make your image files smaller and store bit per pixel color data instead bit per pixel data making image files smaller big win for transmitting files across networks and for archiving libraries images being able compress mbyte full color file down kbytes makes big difference disk space and transmission time you are comparing gif and jpeg the size ratio more like four one more details below your viewing software doesn support jpeg directly you have convert jpeg some other format for viewing manipulating images even with jpeg capable viewer takes longer decode and view jpeg image than view image simpler format gif for instance thus using jpeg essentially time space tradeoff you give some time order store transmit image more cheaply worth noting that when network phone transmission involved the time savings from transferring shorter file can much greater than the extra time decompress the file let you the arithmetic yourself the other reason why jpeg will gradually replace gif standard usenet posting format that jpeg can store full color information bits pixel million colors instead less fewer colors you have only bit display hardware then this may not seem like much advantage you within couple years though bit gif will look obsolete black and white macpaint format does today furthermore for reasons detailed section jpeg far more useful than gif for exchanging images among people with widely varying color display hardware hence jpeg considerably more appropriate than gif for use usenet posting standard when should use jpeg and when should stick with gif jpeg not going displace gif entirely for some types images gif superior image quality file size both one the first things learn about jpeg which kinds images apply rule thumb jpeg superior gif for storing full color gray scale images realistic scenes that means scanned photographs and similar material jpeg superior even you don have bit display hardware and lot superior you see section for details gif does significantly better images with only few distinct colors such cartoons and line drawings particular large areas pixels that are all exactly the same color are compressed very efficiently indeed gif jpeg can squeeze these files much gif does without introducing visible defects this sort image best kept gif form particular single color borders are quite cheap gif files but they should avoided jpeg files jpeg also has hard time with very sharp edges row pure black pixels adjacent row pure white pixels for example sharp edges tend come out blurred unless you use very high quality setting again this sort thing not found scanned photographs but shows fairly often gif files borders overlaid text etc the blurriness particularly objectionable with text that only few pixels high you have gif with lot small size overlaid text don jpeg computer drawn images ray traced scenes for instance usually fall between scanned images and cartoons terms complexity the more complex and subtly rendered the image the more likely that jpeg will well the same goes for semi realistic artwork fantasy drawings and such plain black and white two level images should never converted jpeg you need least about gray levels before jpeg useful for gray scale images should also noted that gif lossless for gray scale images levels while jpeg not you have existing library gif images you may wonder whether you should convert them jpeg you will lose little image quality you section which argues that jpeg image quality superior gif only applies both formats start from full color original you start from gif you already irretrievably lost great deal information jpeg can only make things worse however the disk space savings may justify converting anyway this decision you have make for yourself you convert gif library jpeg see section for hints prepared leave some images gif format since some gifs will not convert well how well does jpeg compress images pretty darn well here are some sample file sizes for image have handy full color image ship harbor the first three files are for comparison purposes the rest were created with the free jpeg software described section file size bytes comments ship ppm original file ppm format compression bits bytes per pixel plus few bytes overhead ship ppm ppm file passed through unix compress compress doesn accomplish lot you note other text oriented compressors give similar results ship gif converted gif with ppmquant ppmtogif most the savings the result losing color info gif saves bits pixel not see sec ship jpg cjpeg highest useful quality setting this indistinguishable from the bit original least nonprofessional eyeballs ship jpg cjpeg default setting you have look mighty darn close distinguish this from the original even with both screen once ship jpg cjpeg this has slight defects you know what look for you could tell been jpeged without seeing the original still good image quality many recent postings usenet pictures groups ship jpg cjpeg jpeg characteristic blockiness becomes apparent this setting djpeg blocksmooth helps some still seen plenty usenet postings that were poorer image quality than this ship jpg cjpeg optimize optimize cuts table overhead blocky but perfectly satisfactory for preview indexing purposes note that this file tiny the compression ratio from the original this case jpeg can make file that factor four five smaller than gif comparable quality the file every bit good the gif better you have full color display this seems typical ratio for real world scenes what are good quality settings for jpeg most jpeg compressors let you pick file size image quality tradeoff selecting quality setting there seems widespread confusion about the meaning these settings quality does not mean keep the information some have claimed the quality scale purely arbitrary not percentage anything the name the game using jpeg pick the lowest quality setting smallest file size that decompresses into image indistinguishable from the original this setting will vary from one image another and from one observer another but here are some rules thumb the default quality setting very often the best choice this setting about the lowest you can without expecting see defects typical image try first you see defects then except for experimental purposes never above saying will produce file two three times large but hardly any better quality the image was less than perfect quality begin with you might able down without objectionable degradation the other hand you might need higher quality setting avoid further degradation the second case seems apply much the time when converting gifs jpeg the default about right for compressing bit images but usually better for converting gifs see section for more info you want very small file say for preview indexing purposes and are prepared tolerate large defects setting the range about right may amusing art note the quality settings discussed this article apply the free jpeg software described section and many programs based other jpeg implementations such image alchemy may use completely different quality scale some programs don even provide numeric scale just high medium low style choices where can get jpeg software most the programs described this section are available ftp you don know how use ftp see the faq article how find sources you don have direct access ftp read about ftpmail servers the same article that article appears regularly news answers you can get sending mail mail server rtfm mit edu with send usenet news answers finding sources the body the anonymous ftp list faq may also helpful usenet news answers ftp list faq the news answers archive note this list changes constantly you have copy more than couple months old get the latest jpeg faq from the news answers archive you are looking for canned software viewers etc the first part this list system specific programs that only run one kind system you don see what you want for your machine check out the portable jpeg software described the end the list note that this list concentrates free and shareware programs that you can obtain over internet but some commercial programs are listed too windows john bradley free version and excellent viewer for jpeg gif and other image formats available for ftp from export lcs mit edu ftp cis upenn edu the file called tar where the version number currently located the contrib directory export the pub directory upenn reduces all images bits internally which means not real good choice you have bit display you still get only bit color also you shouldn use convert full color images jpeg because they get color quantized first but fine tool for converting gif and other bit images jpeg caution there glitch versions and earlier sure check the save normal size checkbox when saving jpeg file the file will blurry another good choice for windows john cristy free imagemagick package also available from export lcs mit edu file contrib imagemagick tar this package handles many image processing and conversion tasks the imagemagick viewer handles bit displays correctly for colormapped displays does better though slower color quantization than the basic free jpeg software both the above are large complex packages you just want simple image viewer try xloadimage xli xloadimage supports jpeg its latest release xloadimage free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xloadimage tar xli variant version xloadimage said its fans somewhat faster and more robust than the original the current xli indeed faster and more robust than the current xloadimage least with respect jpeg files because has the ijg decoder while xloadimage using hacked over the next xloadimage release will fix this xli also free and available from export lcs mit edu file contrib xli tar both programs are said the right thing with bit displays dos this covers plain dos for windows programs see the next headings one good choice eric praetzel free dvpeg which views jpeg and gif files the current version available ftp from sunee uwaterloo file pub jpeg viewers dvpeg zip this good basic viewer that works either machines the user interface not flashy but functional another freeware jpeg gif tga viewer mohammad rezaei hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics zip hiview requires better cpu and vcpi compatible memory manager qemm and max work windows and not hiview currently the fastest viewer for images that are bigger than your screen for larger images scales the image down fit the screen rather than using panning scrolling most viewers you may may not prefer this approach but there denying that slows down loading large images considerably note installation bit tricky read the directions carefully shareware alternative colorview for dos this easier install than either the two freeware alternatives its user interface also much spiffier looking although personally find harder use more keystrokes inconsistent behavior faster than dvpeg but little slower than hiview least hardware for images larger than screen size dvpeg and colorview seem about the same speed and both are faster than hiview the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics dcview zip requires vesa graphics driver you don have one look vesadrv zip vesa tsr zip from the same directory many recent pcs have built vesa driver don try load vesa driver unless colorview complains that the driver missing second shareware alternative fullview which has been kicking around the net for while but don know any stable archive location for the current rather old version inferior the above viewers anyway the author tells that new version fullview will out shortly and will submitted the simtel archives that time the well known gif viewer compushow cshow supports jpeg its latest revision however cshow jpeg implementation isn very good slow about half the speed the above viewers and image quality poor except color displays too bad have been nice see good jpeg capability cshow shareware available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos gif cshw zip due the remarkable variety graphics hardware any one these viewers might not work your particular machine you can get any them work you need use one the following conversion programs convert jpeg gif then view with your favorite gif viewer you have color hardware don use gif the intermediate format try find targa capable viewer instead vpic reputed the right thing with color displays the independent jpeg group free jpeg converters are ftpable from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics jpeg zip jpeg zip you have and extended memory these files are dos compilations the free source code described section they will convert jpeg and from gif targa and ppm formats handmade software offers free jpeg gif conversion tools gif jpg jpg gif these are slow and are limited conversion and from gif format particular you can get bit color output from jpeg the major advantage these tools that they will read and write hsi proprietary jpeg format well the usenet standard jfif format since hsi format files are rather widespread bbses this useful capability version these tools free prior versions were shareware get from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics gif jpg zip note not use hsi format for files posted internet since not readable non platforms handmade software also has shareware image conversion and manipulation package image alchemy this will translate jpeg files both jfif and hsi formats and from many other image formats can also display images demo version image alchemy version available from simtel and mirror sites see note below file msdos graphics alch zip note about simtel the internet key archive site for related programs simtel full name wsmr simtel army mil simtel runs non unix system with weird directory names where this document refers directory msdos graphics simtel that really means msdos graphics you are not physically milnet you should expect rather slow ftp transfer rates from simtel there are several internet sites that maintain copies mirrors the simtel archives most ftp users should one the mirror sites instead popular usa mirror site oak oakland edu which keeps simtel files pub msdos graphics you have ftp capability you can retrieve files from simtel mail see informational postings comp archives msdos announce find out how you are outside the usa consult the same newsgroup learn where your nearest simtel mirror microsoft windows there are several windows programs capable displaying jpeg images windows viewers are generally slower than dos viewers the same hardware due windows system overhead note that you can run the dos conversion programs described above inside windows dos window the newest entry winecj which free and extremely fast version available from ftp rahul net file pub bryanw jpeg wecj zip requires windows and more colors mode this frills viewer with the bad habit hogging the machine completely while decodes and the image quality noticeably worse than other viewers but fast you use anyway least for previewing jview freeware fairly fast has good line help and can write out the decompressed image windows bmp format but can create new jpeg files and doesn view gifs jview also lacks some other useful features the shareware viewers such brightness adjustment but excellent basic viewer the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop jview zip mirrors this archive can found some other internet sites including wuarchive wustl edu winjpeg shareware displays jpeg gif targa tiff and bmp image files can write all these formats too can used converter has some other nifty features including color balance adjustment and slideshow the current version available from simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos windows winjp zip this slow compatible version you register you get the only version which roughly faster colorview another shareware entry this was early and promising contender but has not been updated some time and this point has real advantages over winjpeg you want try anyway the current version available from ftp cica indiana edu file pub win desktop cview zip understand that new version will appearing once the authors are finished with colorview for dos dvpeg see dos heading also works under windows but only full screen mode not window the following files are available from hobbes nmsu edu note check pub uploads for more recent versions the hobbes moderator not very fast about moving uploads into their permanent directories pub graphics jpegv zip bit version free ijg conversion programs version pub all graphics jpeg zip bit version same for pub graphics imgarc zip image archiver image conversion viewing with graphical interface strong conversion functions viewing bit weaker shareware pub graphics pmjpeg zip pmjpeg port winjpeg popular viewer for windows see description windows section shareware pub graphics pmview zip pmview jpeg gif bmp viewer gif viewing very fast jpeg viewing fast you have huge amounts ram otherwise about the same speed the above programs strong bit display support shareware macintosh most mac jpeg programs rely apple jpeg implementation which part the quicktime system extension you need have quicktime installed use quicktime you need better cpu and you need running system later you running system you must also install the bit quickdraw extension this built system you can get quicktime ftp from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime quicktime hqx this file contains quicktime which better than several ways with respect jpeg marginally faster and considerably less prone crash when fed corrupt jpeg file however some applications seem have compatibility problems with mac users should keep mind that quicktime jpeg format pict jpeg not the same the usenet standard jfif jpeg format see section for details you post images usenet make sure they are jfif format most the programs mentioned below can generate either format the first choice probably jpegview free program for viewing images that are jfif format pict jpeg format gif format also can convert between the two jpeg formats the current version big improvement over prior versions get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg view hqx requires system and quicktime bit displays jpegview usually produces the best color image quality all the currently available mac jpeg viewers jpegview can view large images much less memory than other mac viewers fact the only one that can deal with jpeg images much over pixels typical mac given large image jpegview automatically scales down fit the screen rather than presenting scroll bars like most other viewers you can zoom any desired portion though some people like this behavior some don overall jpegview user interface very well thought out gifconverter shareware image viewer converter supports jfif and pict jpeg well gif and several other image formats the latest version get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac art gif gif converter hqx requires system later gifconverter not better than jpegview plain jpeg gif viewer but has much more extensive image manipulation and format conversion capabilities you may find worth its shareware fee you lot playing around with images also the newest version gifconverter can load and save jfif images without quicktime your best bet your machine too old run quicktime but faster with quicktime note gifconverter runs out memory trying load large jpeg try converting the file gif with jpeg convert then viewing the gif version jpeg convert mac version the free ijg jpeg conversion utilities available from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app jpeg convert hqx this will run any mac but only does file conversion not viewing you can use conjunction with any gif viewer previous versions this faq recommended imagery jpeg jpeg gif converter based old version the ijg code you are using this program you definitely should replace with jpeg convert apple free program pictpixie can view images jfif quicktime jpeg and gif format and can convert between these formats you can get pictpixie from ftp apple com file dts mac quicktime stuff pictpixie hqx requires quicktime pictpixie was intended developer tool and really not the best choice unless you like fool around with quicktime some its drawbacks are that requires lots memory produces relatively poor color image quality anything less than bit display and has relatively unfriendly user interface worse pictpixie unsupported program meaning has some minor bugs that apple does not intend fix there old version pictpixie called pictcompressor floating around the net you have this you should trash even buggier also the quicktime starter kit includes much cleaned descendant pictpixie called picture compressor note that picture compressor not free and may not distributed the net storm technology picture decompress free jpeg viewer converter this rather old program inferior the above programs many ways but will run without system quicktime you may forced use older systems does need bit quickdraw really old machines can use you can get from sumex aim stanford edu file info mac app picture decompress hqx you must set the file type downloaded image file jpeg allow picture decompress open your machine too old run bit quickdraw mac plus for instance gifconverter your only choice for single program jpeg viewing you don want pay for gifconverter use jpeg convert and free gif viewer more and more commercial mac applications are supporting jpeg although not all can deal with the usenet standard jfif format adobe photoshop version later can read and write jfif format jpeg files use the jpeg plug from the acquire menu you must set the file type downloaded jpeg file jpeg allow photoshop recognize amiga most programs listed this section are stored the aminet archive amiga physik unizh there are many mirror sites this archive and you should try use the closest one the usa good choice wuarchive wustl edu look under mirrors amiga physik unizh hamlab plus excellent jpeg viewer converter well being general image manipulation tool cheap shareware and can read several formats besides jpeg the current version demo version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx edit hamlab lha the demo version will crop images larger than but otherwise fully functional rend shareware image renderer that can display jpeg ilbm and gif images the program can used create animations even capturing frames the fly from rendering packages like lightwave the current version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx rend lha note although this directory supposedly for amigados programs the program will also run under amigados viewtek free jpeg ilbm gif anim viewer the current version available from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites file amiga gfx show viewtek lha you willing spend real money there are several commercial packages that support jpeg two are written thomas krehbiel the author rend and viewtek these are cinemorph standalone image morphing package and imagefx impressive bit image capture conversion editing painting effects and prepress package that also includes cinemorph both are distributed great valley products art department professional adpro from asdg inc the most widely used commercial image manipulation software for amigas imagemaster from black belt systems another well regarded commercial graphics package with jpeg support the free ijg jpeg software available compiled for amigas from amiga physik unizh and mirror sites directory amiga gfx conv file amigajpegv lha these programs convert jpeg from ppm gif targa formats the amiga world heavily infested with quick and dirty jpeg programs many based ancient beta test version the free ijg jpeg software thanks certain magazine that published same its disk the month without much notifying the authors among these are augjpeg newamyjpeg vjpeg and probably others have not even heard opinion anything older than ijg version march not worth the disk space stored you have such program trash and get something newer atari the free ijg jpeg software available compiled for atari etc from atari archive umich edu file atari graphics jpeg bin zoo these programs convert jpeg from ppm gif targa formats have not heard any free shareware jpeg capable viewer for ataris but surely there must one now pointers appreciated acorn archimedes changefsi supplied with risc version can convert from and view jpeg jfif format provision also made convert images jpeg although this must done from the cli rather than double clicking recent versions since the shareware program translator can handle jpeg along with about other image formats while older versions can found some archimedes bboards the current version only available registering with the author john kortink nutterbrink enschede the netherlands price dutch guilders about pounds there also commercial product called jpeg which provides jpeg read write functionality and direct jpeg viewing well host other image format conversion and processing options this more expensive but not necessarily better than the above programs contact software freepost cambridge tel portable software for almost any system none the above fits your situation you can obtain and compile the free jpeg conversion software described you also need viewer program your display bits less any gif viewer will fine you have display with more color capability try find viewer that can read targa ppm bit image files there are numerous commercial jpeg offerings with more popping every day recommend that you not spend money one these unless you find the available free shareware software vastly too slow that case purchase hardware assisted product ask pointed questions about whether the product complies with the final jpeg standard and about whether can handle the jfif file format many the earliest commercial releases are not and never will compatible with anyone else files you are looking for source code work with free portable code for jpeg compression available from the independent jpeg group which lead package containing our source code documentation and some small test files available from several places the official archive site for this source code ftp net look under directory graphics jpeg the current release jpegsrc tar this compressed tar file don forget retrieve binary mode you can retrieve this file ftp uucp you are and don know how cope with tar format you may prefer zip format which you can find simtel and mirror sites see note above file msdos graphics jpegsrc zip this file will also available compuserve the graphsupport forum pics library jpsrc zip you have ftp access you can retrieve the source from your nearest comp sources misc archive version appeared issues volume you don know how retrieve comp sources misc postings see the faq article how find sources referred the top section the free jpeg code provides conversion between jpeg jfif format and image files gif pbmplus ppm pgm utah rle and truevision targa file formats the core compression and decompression modules can easily reused other programs such image viewers the package highly portable have tested many machines ranging from pcs crays have released this software for both noncommercial and commercial use companies are welcome use the basis for jpeg related products not ask royalty although ask for acknowledgement product literature see the readme file the distribution for details hope make this software industrial quality although with anything that free offer warranty and accept liability the independent jpeg group volunteer organization you like contribute improving our software you are welcome join what all this hoopla about color quantization most people don have full color bit per pixel display hardware typical display hardware stores fewer bits per pixel can display fewer distinct colors time display full color image the computer must map the image into appropriate set representative colors this process called color quantization this something misnomer color selection would better term stuck with the standard usage though clearly color quantization lossy process turns out that for most images the details the color quantization algorithm have much more impact the final image quality than any errors introduced jpeg except the very lowest jpeg quality settings since jpeg full color format converting color jpeg image for display bit less hardware requires color quantization this true for all color jpegs even you feed less color gif into jpeg what comes out the decompressor not colors but thousands colors this happens because jpeg lossiness affects each pixel little differently two pixels that started with identical colors will probably come out with slightly different colors each original color gets smeared into group nearby colors therefore quantization always required display color jpeg colormapped display regardless the image source the only way avoid quantization ask for gray scale output incidentally because this effect nearly meaningless talk about the number colors used jpeg image even you attempted count the number distinct pixel values different jpeg decoders would give you different results because roundoff error differences occasionally see posted images described color jpeg this tells that the poster hasn read this faq and probably converted the jpeg from gif jpegs can classified color gray scale just like photographs but number colors just isn useful concept for jpeg the other hand gif image definition has already been quantized fewer colors gif does have definite number colors its palette and the format doesn allow more than palette entries for purposes usenet picture distribution gif has the advantage that the sender precomputes the color quantization recipients don have this also the disadvantage gif you stuck with the sender quantization the sender quantized different number colors than what you can display you have quantize resulting much poorer image quality than you had quantized once from full color image furthermore the sender didn use high quality color quantization algorithm you out luck for this reason jpeg offers the promise significantly better image quality for all users whose machines don match the sender display hardware jpeg full color image can quantized precisely match the user display hardware furthermore you will able take advantage future improvements quantization algorithms there lot active research this area purchase better display hardware get better view jpeg images you already have with gif you stuck forevermore with what was sent also worth mentioning that many gif viewing programs include rather shoddy quantization routines you view color gif color ega display for example you are probably getting much worse image than you need this partly inevitable consequence doing two color quantizations one create the gif one display but often also due sloppiness jpeg conversion programs will forced use high quality quantizers order get acceptable results all and normal use they will quantize directly the number colors displayed thus jpeg likely provide better results than the average gif program for low color resolution displays well high resolution ones finally ever growing number people have better than bit display hardware already bit color displays true bit displays workstations and macintoshes etc for these people gif already obsolete cannot represent image the full capabilities their display jpeg images can drive these displays much more effectively thus jpeg all around better choice than gif for representing images machine independent fashion how does jpeg work the buzz words know are chrominance subsampling discrete cosine transforms coefficient quantization and huffman arithmetic entropy coding this article long enough already not going say more than that here for technical information see the comp compression faq this available from the news answers archive rtfm mit edu files pub usenet news answers compression faq part you need help using the news answers archive see the top this article what about lossless jpeg there great deal confusion this subject the jpeg committee did define truly lossless compression algorithm one that guarantees the final output bit for bit identical the original input however this lossless mode has almost nothing common with the regular lossy jpeg algorithm and offers much less compression present very few implementations lossless jpeg exist and all them are commercial saying the free jpeg software does not get you lossless image what does get rid deliberate information loss the coefficient quantization step there still good deal information loss the color subsampling step with the free jpeg code you can also say sample turn off subsampling keep mind that many commercial jpeg implementations cannot cope with the resulting file even with both quantization and subsampling turned off the regular jpeg algorithm not lossless because subject roundoff errors various calculations the maximum error few counts any one pixel value highly unlikely that this could perceived the human eye but might concern you are doing machine processing image this minimum loss setting regular jpeg produces files that are perhaps half the size uncompressed bit per pixel image true lossless jpeg provides roughly the same amount compression but guarantees bit for bit accuracy you have application requiring lossless storage images with less than bits per pixel per color component you may want look into the jbig bilevel image compression standard this performs better than jpeg lossless such images jpeg lossless superior jbig images with more bits per pixel furthermore jpeg public domain least with huffman back end while the jbig techniques are heavily covered patents why all the argument about file formats strictly speaking jpeg refers only family compression algorithms does not refer specific image file format the jpeg committee was prevented from defining file format turf wars within the international standards organizations since can actually exchange images with anyone else unless agree common file format this leaves with problem the absence official standards number jpeg program writers have just gone off their own thing and result their programs aren compatible with anybody else the closest thing have facto standard jpeg format some work that been coordinated people cube microsystems they have defined two jpeg based file formats jfif jpeg file interchange format low end format that transports pixels and not much else tiff jpeg aka tiff extension the aldus tiff format tiff high end format that will let you record just about everything you ever wanted know about image and lot more besides tiff lot more complex than jfif and may well prove less transportable because different vendors have historically implemented slightly different and incompatible subsets tiff not likely that adding jpeg the mix will anything improve this situation both these formats were developed with input from all the major vendors jpeg related products reasonably likely that future commercial products will adhere one both standards believe that usenet should adopt jfif the replacement for gif picture postings jfif simpler than tiff and available now the tiff spec has only recently been officially adopted and still unusably vague some crucial details even when tiff jpeg well defined the jfif format likely widely supported lowest common denominator tiff jpeg files may never transportable particular case that people may interested apple quicktime software for the macintosh quicktime uses jfif compatible format wrapped inside the mac specific pict structure conversion between jfif and quicktime jpeg pretty straightforward and several mac programs are available see mac portion section you have editor that handles binary files you can strip quicktime jpeg pict down jfif hand see section for details another particular case handmade software programs gif jpg jpg gif and image alchemy these programs are capable reading and writing jfif format default though they write proprietary format developed hsi this format not readable any non hsi programs and should not used for usenet postings use the switch get jfif output this applies old versions these programs the current releases emit jfif format default you still should careful not post hsi format files unless you want get flamed people non platforms how recognize which file format have and what about you have alleged jpeg file that your software won read likely hsi format some other proprietary jpeg based format you can tell what you have inspecting the first few bytes the file jfif standard file will start with the characters hex followed two variable bytes often hex followed jfif you see the start but not the rest you may have raw jpeg file this probably decodable jfif software worth try anyway hsi files start with hsi you out luck unless you have hsi software portions the file may look like plain jpeg data but they won decompress properly with non hsi programs macintosh pict file jpeg compressed will have couple hundred bytes header followed jfif header scan for jfif strip off everything before the and you should able read anything else proprietary format not jpeg all you are lucky the file may consist header and raw jpeg data stream you can identify the start the jpeg data stream look for try stripping off everything before that uuencoded usenet postings the characteristic jfif pattern begin line whereas uuencoded hsi files will start with begin line you learn check for the former you can save yourself the trouble downloading non jfif files what about arithmetic coding the jpeg spec defines two different back end modules for the final output compressed data either huffman coding arithmetic coding allowed the choice has impact image quality but arithmetic coding usually produces smaller compressed file typical images arithmetic coding produces file percent smaller than huffman coding all the file size numbers previously cited are for huffman coding unfortunately the particular variant arithmetic coding specified the jpeg standard subject patents owned ibm and mitsubishi thus you cannot legally use arithmetic coding unless you obtain licenses from these companies the fair use doctrine allows people implement and test the algorithm but actually storing any images with dubious best least the short run recommend that people not worry about arithmetic coding the space savings isn great enough justify the potential legal hassles particular arithmetic coding should not used for any images exchanged usenet there some small chance that the legal situation may change the future stay tuned for further details does loss accumulate with repeated compression decompression would nice having compressed image with jpeg you could decompress manipulate crop off border say and recompress without any further image degradation beyond what you lost initially unfortunately this not the case general recompressing altered image loses more information though usually not much was lost the first time around the next best thing would that you decompress image and recompress without changing then there further loss you get identical jpeg file even this not true least not with the current free jpeg software essentially problem accumulation roundoff error you repeatedly compress and decompress the image will eventually degrade where you can see visible changes from the first generation output usually takes many such cycles get visible change one the things our list see accumulation error can avoided limited but not optimistic about any case the most that could possibly guaranteed would that compressing the unmodified full color output djpeg the original quality setting would introduce further loss even such simple changes cropping off border could cause further roundoff error degradation you wondering why because the pixel block boundaries move you cropped off only multiples pixels you might safe but that mighty limited capability the bottom line that jpeg useful format for archival storage and transmission images but you don want use intermediate format for sequences image manipulation steps use lossless format ppm rle tiff etc while working the image then jpeg when you are ready file away aside from avoiding degradation you will save lot compression decompression time this way what are some rules thumb for converting gif images jpeg stated earlier you will lose some amount image information you convert existing gif image jpeg you can obtain the original full color data the gif was made from far better make jpeg from that but you need save space and have only the gif work from here are some suggestions for getting maximum space savings with minimum loss quality the first rule when converting gif library look each jpeg make sure you are happy with before throwing away the corresponding gif that will give you chance the conversion with higher quality setting necessary some gifs may better left gifs explained section particular cartoon type gifs with sixteen fewer colors don convert well you may find that jpeg file reasonable quality will larger than the gif check the sizes too experience date suggests that large high visual quality gifs are the best candidates for conversion jpeg they chew the most storage offer the most potential savings and they convert jpeg with least degradation don waste your time converting any gif much under kbytes also don expect jpeg files converted from gifs small those created directly from full color originals maintain image quality you may have let the converted files much twice big straight through jpeg files would shoot for the size the gif file not suggested earlier comparisons many people have developed odd habit putting large constant color border around gif image while useless this was nearly free terms storage cost gif files not free jpeg files and the sharp border boundary can create visible artifacts ghost edges yourself favor and crop off any border before jpeging you are windows system manual and automatic cropping functions are very painless way this cjpeg default setting appropriate for full color input but for gif inputs settings often seem necessary avoid image degradation you apply smoothing suggested below the higher setting may not necessary color gifs photographs complex artwork are usually dithered fool your eye into seeing more than the colors that gif can actually store you enlarge the image you will see that adjacent pixels are often significantly different colors normal size the eye averages these pixels together produce the illusion intermediate color value the trouble with dithering that jpeg looks like high spatial frequency color noise and jpeg can compress noise very well the resulting jpeg file both larger and lower image quality than what you would have gotten from jpeging the original full color image you had get around this you want smooth the gif image before compression smoothing averages together nearby pixels thus approximating the color that you thought you saw anyway and the process getting rid the rapid color changes that give jpeg trouble appropriate use smoothing will often let you avoid using high factor thus further reducing the size the compressed file while still obtaining better looking output image than you get without smoothing with the free jpeg software products based simple smoothing capability built try smooth when converting gifs values seem work well for high quality gifs heavy handed dithering may require larger smoothing factors you can see regular fine scale patterns the gif image even without enlargement then strong smoothing definitely called for too large smoothing factor will blur the output image which you don want you are image processing wizard you can also smoothing with separate filtering program such pnmconvol from the pbmplus package however cjpeg built smoother lot faster than pnmconvol the upshot all this that cjpeg quality smooth probably good starting point for converting gifs but you really care about the image you want check the results and maybe try few other settings for more information about jpeg general the free jpeg software particular contact the independent jpeg group jpeg info uunet net tom lane organizer independent jpeg group internet tgl cmu edu bitnet tgl cmu edu carnegie
comp.graphics	cview answers well the temp file thing creates obvious problem impossible use cview for viewing rom based picture collections and the only non windows viewer that works properly with cirrus based bit vga
comp.graphics	cview answers majority users not readding from floppy well how about those who have picture roms and would like use cview because fast and works well but can because the moron lacked the foresight create the temp file the program path not the current didrectory
comp.graphics	needed plotting package that does looking for graphics cad whatever package unix box that will take file with records like where count integer entity string entity string type string and produce networked graph with nodes represented with boxes circles and the vertices represented lines and the width the line determined there would different line type for each type vertice the boxes need identified with the entity name the number entities and vertices would nice the tool minimized line cross overs and did good job layout have looked the faq for comp graphics and gnuplot without success any ideas would appreciated thanks glen fullmer glen fullmer pts mot com for successful technology reality must take precedence over public relations for nature cannot fooled richard feynman
comp.graphics	video out organization world information your fingertips keywords article toontown columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com craig williamson writes getting ready buy multimedia workstation and would like little advice need graphics card that will video and out under windows was originally thinking targa but that doesn work under windows what cards should looking into thanks craig forgive divine craig williamson airhead human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers craig you should still consider the targa run windows all the time work and works fine think all you need the right driver josh west email mscrap halcyon com
comp.graphics	and fli specs can somebody point out where can find the specs for and fli files found arthur qedbbs com arthur choung qed arthur the qed bbs
comp.graphics	windows graphics viewer check out image pals from lead until may special intro price has the basic image processing tools for all major formats does screen grabbing and allows all your image files calalogged into thumbnail database great don
comp.graphics	windows screen grabber summary again many thanks all the people who responded request for windows screen grabber proves again that the net wonderful thing summary there are two choices various screen grabber packages corel draw has one there are couple simtel and cica use the built printscreen and alt printscreen functionality paste the screen window the clipboard then paste the clipboard your application cool again thanks for the info grant the windows newbie unix and are bag grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu phone fax woman place the wrong james thurber
comp.graphics	tiff next appsoft draw gif conversion okay all friends are bitching that the map made appsoft draw can displayed checked true least with version readers the next have very little trouble preview messes the eps but does fine with the tiff and imageviewer behaves with flying colors except doesn convert worth please there any way can convert this drw from appsoft the next something more reasonable like gif have access sun and nextstep systems any good reliable conversion programs would helpful please email post responses anyone wants please email that yes used alphachannel god could choke steve jobs right now yes know how archie but tell what archie for also there way convert plain format imageviiewer turns out nothing recognizable terrychay small editorial tychay apr undernet tiff tychay apr undernet tiff and not using gzip there something wrong with this format
comp.graphics	bitmap interpolation yesterday wrote program bilinear interpolation ala numerical recipes with the pbmplus libraries pretty happy with the results but looking for any already coded non linear interpolation schemes before ahead try write one any pointers dave disser caen user services wealth wasted disser engin umich edu chrysler center the old ann arbor
comp.graphics	rom indexes available the file and contents listings for knowledge media resource library graphics knowledge media resource library audio are now available for anonymous ftp from cdrom com
comp.graphics	what the fastest windows video article apr exu ericsson ebuhcb ebu ericsson writes article apr trentu ayounes trentu amro younes trent university peterborough canada writes have the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version must admit has received bad press but that was due the faulty drivers had magazine seems impressed with the ati card their most recent reviews the april issue they rate the ati graphics ultra pro eisa version their editor choice they noted that the drivers had improved since they tested the isa version january cuyler yeah they also gave their editor choice the run down graphics accelerators they tested the previous issue which why bought and then returned mine the only conclusion can come with that magazine has wildly different ways determining the worthiness video card than david farley the university chicago library east street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	help need jpeg mpeg encod decode involve distant learning project and need jpeg and mpeg encode decode source and object code this not for profit project that once completed hope release other educational and institutional learning centers this project requires that true photographic images sent over plain telephone lines addition there real good gui lib with objects and all types menu classes that can use both end the transaction server and terminal end would like hear about recently posted rfd announcing the otg open telematic group that will concern itself with the developement such application and that would incorporate naplps jpeg mpeg voice ivr fax sprites animation fli flc etc present only dos and unix environment being worked and our hope that can generate enough interest where all the major platform can accomodated via plaform independent api toolkit sdk are the mind that about time that such project and group form deal with these issues want setup repository where these files may access such simte and start putting together otg faq you have some any information that your opinion would interest the otg community and you like see included our first faq please send email the address below thanks advance box atlanta zyxel epimntl world std com pimentel gisatl fidonet org edimg willard atl pimentel gatech vdbsan willard edimg emory uumind willard edimg willard house bbs atlanta
comp.graphics	scanned grey color equations while back someone had several equations which could used for changing iltered grey scale images into one true color image this possible because the same theory used most color scanners not looking for the obv ious solution which buy color scanner but what need those equat ions becasue starting write software which will automate the conversion process would really appreciate someone would repost the equations unknowns thanks for the help
comp.graphics	pov tga and speedstar finally got bit viewer for povray generated tga files was written sean malloy and kindly sent copy wrote for the same purpose view tga files using his speedstar only works with the speedstar and cannot send copies since not program believe the author may release version future time when the program more developed may may not comment this pleases thanks all who were helpful regards jim nobles
comp.graphics	need algorithm for reading and displaying bitmap files making customized paint program dos and need algorithm for reading bitmap files like gif pcx bmp does anyone have such algorithm tried copying one out book for reading pcx format but doesn work will take algorithm for any format that can created from windows paint thanks toni
comp.graphics	images earth looking for some graphic images earth shot from space preferably bit color but color gif will anyways anyone knows ftp site where can find these greatly appreciate you could pass the information thanks please send email ken huisman ken ualberta
comp.graphics	sphere from points article qkgbuinns shelley washington edu bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points finding the circumcenter tetrahedron discussed page contouring guide the analysis and display spatial data dave watson pergamon press isbn each pair tetrahedral vertices define plane which perpendicular bisector the line between that pair express each plane the form and solve the set simultaneous equations from any three those planes that have vertex common all vertices are used the solution the circumcenter dave watson internet watson maths uwa edu department mathematics the university western australia tel nedlands australia fax
comp.graphics	paintprogram wanted excuse the sheer newbieness this post but looking for decent paintprogram which will save various file formats bmp pcx etc etc via ftp freeware shareware would like check out the available programs for little before check out the commercial market thanks advance for any help direction you can give daemon
comp.graphics	vesa graphics standard the ibm world how much standard has vesa become for svga graphics know there are lots graphics board companies out there well several graphics chips manufacturers are they adhering the vesa standard and what effect will the vesa local bus have all this anyone
comp.graphics	where dmorf could anyone direct the ftp site where can find the dos based morphing package called dmorf zip had downloaded this file last week but the new dos crashed hard drive and lost now can find the site where got from also are there any other morphing packages out for dos freeware shareware thanks advance barry egerter obelix gaul csd uwo author wgt graphics toolkit for vga version now available turbo borland better joystick mouse graphics primitives non bgi power gif pcx data storage sprites multiway scrolling games bitmap warping resizing support fli egerter obelix gaul csd uwo
comp.graphics	sphere from points plan post summary responses this soon have working code which will also include the intersection planes method looks best but implementation based short article graphics gems doesn work may misinterpreting course had avoided the simultaneous solution the plane equations favor dot and cross products but the former may actually better either case matrix determinant needs computed implicitly the solution linear equations get the planes was taking the midpoint the line from say and setting the normal the normalized vector from these just plugged into the formula graphics gems however the resulting center point only occasionally equidistant from all test points for different tests matrix vector math very rusty but looks like need verify the formula use the simultaneous equation solution which will require bringing another routine don have but should easy find another method first find the center the circle defined sets points and intersecting the normals from there this would also define the circle center however small numerical imprecisions would make the lines not intersect supposedly planes have intersect unique point they are not parallel thanks all who answered far bolson university washington cardiovascular research bolson washington edu preferred bolson max bitnet bolson milton washington edu you must
comp.graphics	sphere from points another method first find the center the circle defined sets points and intersecting the normals from there this would also define the circle center however small numerical imprecisions would make the lines not intersect supposedly planes have intersect unique point they are not parallel having thought about this why don you project the lines onto the plane formed the lines intersection calculation the plane where you guaranteed unique solution unless they parallel which won happen this case and then use parametric distance along the lines from the circle centres determine the exact point interest this bypasses the messy error propogation required the calculation hope haven put foot again steve steven collins email steve crl hitachi visiting computer graphics researcher phone hitachi central research lab tokyo fax
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes ricardo the animation playback which lawrence was referring earlier post plain old quicktime with the compact video codec seen digitized video some apple early commercials precise running centris about fps very nicely bit color depth would expect that using the same algorithm risc processor should able approach full screen full motion animation though you implied the processor will taxed more with highly dynamic material sean don want get into mini war what going say but have little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming the centris you see why please flames reserve those for was chicago the last consumer electronics show and apple had booth there walked and they were showing real time video capture using radious supermac card digitize and make right the spot quicktime movies think the quicktime they were using was the old one that fact the current version only came out december they digitized guy talking there something played back quite nicely and real time the guy then expanded the window resized think and the frame rate decreased enough notice that wasn fps about fps anymore dropped like fps then increased just bit more and dropped fps then asked him what mac was using was using quadra don know what model and was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back the same speed even lcii well spoiled his claim say since quadra mac was having little bit trouble and this wasn even from the hardisk this was from memory test movie was created resolution wasn being scaled scaling was very cpu intensive operation with the original quicktime the current version has optimizations for ratios like but even prepared believe that the performance isn good with playing back actual movie haven done any numerical measurements for scaled playback lawrence oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university waikato electric mail ldo waikato hamilton new zealand gmt
comp.graphics	chaos editions idea internation directory electronic arts borrowed the version this book from friend holy moley what wealth contacts five hundred pages information about electronic artists and organizations around the globe many have email addresses the minute database this information also available minitel the book based france are there any internet minitel gates the book printed french and english have you your organization listed idea just send your information annick bureaud idea rue falguiere paris france free listed not sure how widely distributed the book how much costs not affiliated with them any way was just impressed their collection organizations and artists highly encourage all involved electronic media video music graphics animation etc send your entry and encourage them make their database available internet stastny otis project end process sound news and arts ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha projects otis email cwis unomaha edu sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	images earth apr kakwa ucs ualberta ken ualberta huisman kenneth writes looking for some graphic images earth shot from space preferably bit color but color gif will anyways anyone knows ftp site where can find these greatly appreciate you could pass the information thanks try ftp ing pub info jpl nasa gov simple dir structure and ames arc nasa gov pub space gif and pub space jpeg sorry only bits gifs and jpegs great piccy though try the gif files they semi huge gif files watch out gif dead ahead good luck good software found out there too jurriaan jhwitten ruu jhwitten ruu jurriaan wittenberg department computerscience utrecht the netherlands
comp.graphics	rumours about article news service uci edu rbarris orion oac uci edu robert barris writes not sure how centris mhz stacks against the mhz arm the box obviously the arm faster but how much why would have much faster probably assuming arm about efficient mips for integer calculations doing compact video like digital video codec easy task for software motion pictures which lot like compact video though predates get frames sec decstation that machine has mhz mips burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.graphics	sphere from points spworley netcom com steve worley writes bolson carson washington edu edward bolson writes boy this will embarassing trivial faq given points non coplanar how does one find the sphere that center and radius exactly fitting those points know how for circle from points but not immediately see straightforward way have checked some geometry books graphics gems and farin but still loss please have mercy and provide the solution not bad question don have any refs that list this algorithm either but thinking about bit shouldn too hard take three the points and find the plane they define well the circle that they lie you say you have this algorithm already find the center this circle the line passing through this center perpendicular the plane the three points passes through the center the sphere repeat with the unused point and two the original points this gives you two different lines that both pass through the sphere origin their interection the center the sphere the radius easy compute just the distance from the center any the original points leave the math you but this workable algorithm good had bad feeling about this problem because special case with solution that worried four coplanar points the shape square have unique sphere that they are the surface similarly colinear point have finite sized sphere that they are the surface these algorithms being geometrical designed rather than algebraically design meet these problems neatly when determining which plane the points are they are colinear the algorithm should afil return infinite when intersecting the two lines there are possibilities they are the same line the points were planar circle they are different lines but parallel there sphere radius this last case can achieved with colinier points and any point taking the point and pairs the first parallel lines will produced can also achieved all points are coplanar but are not one circle seems that the algorithm only fails when the points are coplanar the algorithm always fails when the points are coplanar points being colinear coplanar testing the point coplanar when the plane the first points has been found trivial alternate method would take pairs points the plane formed the perpendicular bisector each line segment pair also contains the center the sphere three pairs will form three planes intersecting point this might easier implement steve spworley netcom com
comp.graphics	images earth look the pub space directory ames arc nasa gov there are number earth images there you may have hunt around the subdirectories things tend filed under the mission apollo rather than under the image subject rick
comp.graphics	cview answers renew blade stack urc tue rene walter writes very kind soul has mailed this reply for the bugs cview since isn the position post this himself asked post for him but leave his name out here comes cview has quite number bugs the one you mention perhaps the most stupid question but what will cview run and where can get still need gif viewer for linux without windows thanks
comp.graphics	cview answers apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes stupid question but what will cview run and where can get still need gif viewer for linux without windows thanks boy there way hell you are going able view gifs any other graphics linux without windows love linux because easy learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with windows simple painless required have windows you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like etc
comp.graphics	cview answers qlobb tuegate tue renew blade stack urc tue rene walter writes most info regarding dangers reading from floppy disks omitted unrevcoverable way careful incredibly poor programming for program this the other hand when choosing files the open files menu cview insists doing few disk reads every time one moves the lighter square incredibly annoying when could them all once when gets the directory info and really how much effort does take sort directory listing all fairness how many people you know personally who read images from floppy drives haven tried with jpegs but realize how agonizingly slow with gif files nevertheless important bug that needs squashed merely pointing out that was probably overlooked while serious one must keep mind that will probably affect most the targeted users cview
comp.graphics	cview answers renew blade stack urc tue rene walter writes over where places its temp files just places them its current directory have beg differ this point the batch file use launch cview the dir where cview resides and then invokes every time crash cview the byte temp file found the root dir the drive cview just cyberspace buddha why are you looking for more knowledge when you wixer bga com not pay attention what you already know wixer cactus org get out chair hillary god peace
comp.graphics	help need graphics code package for dos help need code package whatever take data and turn into wireframe surface with hidden lines removed using dos machine and the code can ansi ansi fortran basic the data using forms rectangular grid please post your replies the net that others may benefit imho this general interest question thank you
comp.graphics	vesa the speedstar just posting john cormack wanted tell you that there slight difference between speedstar and speedstar stefan
comp.graphics	converting images laserjet iii does anyone know good way standard application utility convert tif img tga files into laserjet iii format would also like the same converting hpgl plotter files please email any response this the correct group thanks advance michael michael collier programmer the computer unit email collier city the city university tel london fax
comp.graphics	comp graphics programmer hello netters sorry don know this the right way doing this kind thing probably should cfv but since don have tha ability create news group myself just want start the discussion enjoy reading very much but often find difficult sort out what interested everything from screen drivers graphics cards graphics programming and graphics programs are discused here what like comp graphics programmer news group what you other think arff also for the not religous confessor there mystery higher values who birth mankind the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized seldom you hear seeing man prizeing what sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden
comp.graphics	help need graphics code package for dos tamvm tamu edu wrote help need code package whatever take data and turn into wireframe surface with hidden lines removed using dos machine and the code can ansi ansi fortran basic the data using forms rectangular grid please post your replies the net that others may benefit imho this general interest question thank you
comp.graphics	surface intersections have problem with intersections between two surfaces does anybody have easy understand algorithm for that maybe even source marco seirio real life marse caligula his
comp.graphics	wanted atomic energy res establishment techreport looking for the following paper marlow and powell fortran subroutine for plotting the part conic that inside given triangle rep atomic energy res establishment harwell england anything related including cases max max froumentin laboratoire informatique always better never first fondamentale lille tigran petrossian france
comp.graphics	bit graphics cards looking for eisa vesa local bus graphic cards that support least resolution know matrox has one but very expensive all the other cards know that support that resoultion are striaght isa what about the elsa winner eisa the metheus premier isa also are there any servers for unix that support bits just happens sgcs has xserver that does those cards please email info sgcs com for more details thomas das reh springt hoch mail roell sgcs com das reh springt weit include sys pizza was soll tun hat zeit
comp.graphics	need viewer for files the subject says all there viewer for files for thanks dominik
comp.graphics	radiosity radiosity sources wanted when read the comp graphics group never found something about radiosity there anybody interested out there would glad hear from somebody looking for source code for the radiosity method have already read common literature foley think little examples could help understand how radiosity works common languages pascal prefered hope you will help yours peter
comp.graphics	borland turbo libraries for graphics card recently got hold with card and like some programming with are there any libraries out there that will let access the high resolution modes available via borland turbo andy
comp.graphics	radiosity article uni jena hahm fossi hab weimar peter hahm writes radiosity sources wanted when read the comp graphics group never found something about radiosity there anybody interested out there would glad hear from somebody looking for source code for the radiosity method have already read common literature foley think little examples could help understand how radiosity works common languages pascal prefered hope you will help yours peter peter there radiosity package ahead the only problem there are few miles sail let serious working radiosity package written would like make public domain announce the minute finished that were the good news the bad news take another months least finish the meantime you may have look the file radiosity code tar located compute ncsu edu there are some other locations have look archie get the nearest hope that help yours stephan stephan amann sig computer graphics university berne switzerland amann iam unibe tel fax projects radiosity raytracing computer graphics
comp.graphics	needed plotting package that does article full apr dolphin pts mot com full pts mot com glen fullmer writes looking for graphics cad whatever package unix box that will take file with records like where count integer entity string entity string type string and produce networked graph with nodes represented with boxes circles and the vertices represented lines and the width the line determined there would different line type for each type vertice the boxes need identified with the entity name the number entities and vertices would nice the tool minimized line cross overs and did good job layout have looked the faq for comp graphics and gnuplot without success any ideas would appreciated thanks glen fullmer glen fullmer pts mot com see roger grywalski response help network visualization comp graphics visualization amongst other things does exactly this chris murphy chris alta com columbus
comp.graphics	rumours about first off thanks all who have filled the existence the assumed rashly that the particular number would reserved for further enhancements the motorola line rather than meted out another company well guess that what get when assume the computer industry will operate logical manner article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes sean don want get into mini war what going say but have little bit skeptic about the performance you are claiming the centris you see why please flames reserve those for was chicago the last consumer electronics show and apple had booth there walked and they were showing real time video capture using radious supermac card digitize and make right the spot quicktime movies think the quicktime they were using was the old one version quicktime has been stated the current version the software the older version and the horizon the not too distant future they digitized guy talking there something played back quite nicely and real time the guy then expanded the window resized think and the frame rate decreased enough notice that wasn fps about fps anymore dropped like fps then increased just bit more and dropped fps quicktime does much better job playing back movies size than does playing back resized movies apparently the process expanding each frame image and dithering the resultant bitmap the appropriate bit depth pretty processor intensive there are optimizers that work pretty well for showing movies double size but you drop size increase size performance suffers dramatically then asked him what mac was using was using quadra don know what model and was telling the guys there that the quicktime could play back the same speed even lcii lied quicktime very cpu dependent was probably confused the fact that locked internal timecode and will play the same amount time any machine however will drop frames order keep the sound and video synced the centris and quadras have similar cpus and will thus boast similar performance though the quadras will bit faster due marginally faster clock speeds and somewhat different architecture well spoiled his claim say since quadra mac was having little bit trouble and this wasn even from the hardisk this was from memory could that you saw either newer version quicktime some hardware assisted centris another software product running the animation like supposedly macromind accelerator expect that the version the quicktime software you saw was was using was one the new codecs allows video nearly twice the size and the same frame rate what version could handle the centris saw was plain vanilla with the exception the nice speakers that were playing the sound and the software was movie player the player apple includes with the software don misunderstand just want clarify this problem still surprises that quicktime able the things does well can sean mcmains check out the gopher phone university north texas new bands info server fax box seanmac acs unt edu mail denton mcmains unt edu
comp.graphics	images earth kod hawnews watson ibm com ricky watson ibm com rick turner writes look the pub space directory ames arc nasa gov there are number earth images there you may have hunt around the subdirectories things tend filed under the mission apollo rather than under the image subject for those you who don need bit got colour amiga iff cloudless earth scanned looks okay when mapped sphere mail and send you louis hanging your words living your breath feeling with your skin will always here your room
comp.graphics	removing distortion from bitmapped drawings let say you have scanned image line drawing this case boat but could anything the drawing you have set reference points whose true positions are known now you digitize the drawing manually this case using yaron danon excellent digitize program that you use program which converts cursor positions and saves those values when you click the mouse upon digitizing you notice that the reference point values that come out the digitizing process differ small but significant ways from the known true values this understandable because the scanned drawing reproduction the original and there are successive sources distortion such differential expansion and contraction paper errors introduced the printing process scanner errors and what have you the errors are not uniform over the entire drawing global adjustments such stretching contracting uniformly over rotating the whole drawing are not satisfactory the question does any kind soul know algorithm for removing such distortion particular have three sets points reference the known true values distortedreference the same points with known errors distorteddata other points with unknown errors what function reference and distorted could apply distorteddata remove the errors suspect the problem could solved treating the distorted reference points resulting from the projection bumpy surface solving for the surface and then flattening remove the errors the other data points any kind and informed soul out there have any ideas better yet pointers treatments the same similar problems thanks earl
comp.graphics	help grasp could anyone tell possible save each frame grasp animation gif jpg iff any other picture formats got some animations that like transfer amiga really hope that someone can help cheers haavard nesse trondheim college engineering trondheim norway
comp.graphics	comp graphics programmer article andreasa dhhalden andreasa dhhalden andreas arff writes hello netters sorry don know this the right way doing this kind thing probably should cfv but since don have tha ability create news group myself just want start the discussion enjoy reading very much but often find difficult sort out what interested everything from screen drivers graphics cards graphics programming and graphics programs are discused here what like comp graphics programmer news group what you other think this sounds wonderful but seems one either wants spend time doing this they don have the power for example would like see comp graphics architecture like this comp graphics algorithms comp graphics algorithms comp graphics algorithms misc comp graphics hardware comp graphics misc comp graphics software apps however that almost overkill something more like this would probably make everyone lot happier comp graphics programmer comp graphics hardware comp graphics apps comp graphics misc would nice see specialized groups devote morphing raytracing image processing interactive graphics toolkits languages object systems etc but these could posted relevant group have mailing list organized that way when someone reads news they don have see these subject headings which are rather disparate system specific stuff should under comp sys comp programmer need help programming modex programming information fast sprites hardware technical stuff speed weitek drivers for speedstar applications oriented stuff vistapro help how good dstudio best image processing program for amiga programming oriented stuff fast polygon routine needed good morphing alogirhtm wanted best depth sort for triangles which library get wish someone with the power would get cfd and then cfv going this stuff this newsgroup needs brian
comp.graphics	cview answers bryanw rahul net bryan woodworth writes apr whiting mcs com sean whiting mcs com sean gum writes stupid question but what will cview run and where can get still need gif viewer for linux without windows thanks boy there way hell you are going able view gifs any other graphics linux without windows love linux because easy learn you want text okay use linux you want text and graphics use linux with windows simple painless required have windows you want graphics this includes fancy word processors like doc image viewers like etc ummm beg differ kind soul sent program called dpg view that will exactly what want view gif images under linux without windows and does support all the way the biggest complaint have painfully slow takes about minute display image use cshow under dos which takes split second any idea why slow under linux anybody have anything better plus anybody have the docs dpg view thanks
comp.graphics	help need graphics code package for dos article apr ugle unit razor swix nvg unit runar jordahl writes tamvm tamu edu wrote help need code package whatever take data and turn into wireframe surface with hidden lines removed using dos machine and the code can ansi ansi fortran basic the data using forms rectangular grid general interest question thank you afraid your reply didn get thru appreciate you trying reply however please try again
comp.graphics	postscript drawing prog article ecnn mentor purdue edu nish chem purdue edu nishantha writes could somebody let know drawing utility that can used manipulate postscript files specifically interested drawing lines boxes and the sort postscript contour plots have tried xfig and impressed features however use since cannot use postscript files input for the programme there utility that converts postscript xfig format any help would greatly appreciated nishantha think you are too optimistic postscript very big language and the fig format can not able interpreter any arbitrary code the only program know manipulate postscript files islanddraw for myself use xfig and include the postscript files converted epsi format small changes then are possible erasing some letters adding text and reinhard
comp.graphics	siggraph conference understanding images nyc acm siggraph understanding images subject pace university siggraph conference understanding images the purpose this conference bring together breadth disciplines including the physical biological and computational sciences technology art psychology philosophy and education order define and discuss the issues essential image understanding within the computer graphics context featured topics include psychology perception image analysis design text sound philosophy date friday saturday may time place the pace downtown theater one pace plaza spruce street between park row gold street fees pre registration prior may members non members students proof status required registration after may site all attendees registration fee includes brakfast breaks lunch send registration information fees francis marchese computer science department nyc acm siggraph conference pace university pace plaza room new york voice fax email marchesf pacevm bitnet registration information name title company street address city state zip day phone evening phone fax phone email detailed description artists designers scientists engineers and educators share the problem moving information from one mind another traditionally they have used pictures words demonstrations music and dance communicate imagery however expressing complex notions such god and infinity seemingly well defined concept such flower can present challenges which far exceed their technical skills the explosive use computers visualization and expression tools has compounded this problem hypermedia multimedia and virtual reality systems vast amounts information confront the observer participant wading through multitude simultaneous images and sounds possibly unfamiliar representions confounded user asks what does all mean since image construction transmission reception decipherment and ultimate understanding are complex tasks strongly influenced physiology education and culture and since electronic media radically amplify each processing step then electronic communicators must determine the fundamental paradigms for composing imagery for understanding therefore the purpose this conference bring together breadth disciplines including but not limited the physical biological and computational sciences technology art psychology philosophy and education order define and discuss the issues essential image understanding within the computer graphics context featured speakers include psychology perception marc may university ghent beverly jones university oregon barbara tversky standfor university michael shiffer mit tom hubbard ohio state university image analysis ravishankar rao ibm watson research center nalini bhusan smith college xiaopin university illinois narenda ahuja university illinois les sztander university toledo design mark bajuk university illinois alyce kaprow mit text xia lin pace university john loustau hunter college jong ding wang hunter college judson rosebush judson rosebush sound matthew witten university texas robert wyatt center for high performance computing robert williams pace university rory stuart nynex philosophy michael heim education foundation dpma
comp.graphics	fake virtual reality mike peredo mindlink mike peredo writes the most ridiculous example exploitation seen far the virtual reality clothing company which recently opened vancouver far can tell just another chic clothes spot although would interesting they were selling virtual clothing mail you want dig their phone and you can probably get some promotional lit understand there have been couple raves billing themselves virtual reality parties what hear they project gif images around the walls well run animations through newtek toaster seems like need adopt the term really virtual reality something except for the non immersive stuff which virtually really virtual reality etc samuel pratice safe signature prevent dangerous signature virii guildenstern our names shouted certain dawn message summons there must have been moment the beginning where could have said but somehow missed
comp.graphics	removing distortion from bitmapped drawings article apr sctc com boebert sctc com earl boebert writes let say you have scanned image line drawing this case boat but could anything the drawing you have set reference points whose true positions are known now you digitize the drawing manually this case using yaron danon excellent digitize program that you use program which converts cursor positions and saves those values when you click the mouse upon digitizing you notice that the reference point values that come out the digitizing process differ small but significant ways from the known true values this understandable because the scanned drawing reproduction the original and there are successive sources distortion such differential expansion and contraction paper errors introduced the printing process scanner errors and what have you the errors are not uniform over the entire drawing global adjustments such stretching contracting uniformly over rotating the whole drawing are not satisfactory the question does any kind soul know algorithm for removing such distortion particular have three sets points reference the known true values distortedreference the same points with known errors distorteddata other points with unknown errors what function reference and distorted could apply distorteddata remove the errors suspect the problem could solved treating the distorted reference points resulting from the projection bumpy surface solving for the surface and then flattening remove the errors the other data points helps have some idea the source the distortion least reasonable model the class distortion below very short description the process which use you have further questions feel free poke via mail assume locally smooth distortion compute the delaunay triangulation your points this defines the set neighbors for each point your data are not naturally convex you may have very long edges the convex hull consider deleting these edges now there are two goals move the distorteddata the reference keep the length measured from the current close possible the digitizedlength measured using the digitized for every point compute displacement based and for example for points for which you know the reference you can move alpha reference current this will slowly move the distortedreference towards the reference for all other points examine the current length each edge for each edge compute displacement which would make that edge the correct length where correct the digitizedlength take the vector sum these edge displacements and move the point alpha sumofedgedisplacements this will keep the triangulated mesh consistent with your digitized mesh iterate until you are happy for example point moves very much alpha and alpha need determined experimentation consider how much you believe the reference you absolutely insist the final points exactly matching the references you want balance some error matching the reference against changes length the edges warning there are couple geometric invariants which must observed essentially you can allow the convex hull change and you can allow triangles fold over neighboring triangles both these can handled either special case checks the motion individual points periodically triangulating the points using the current positions but still calculating digitizedlength from the original positions when first did this the triangulation time was prohibitive only did once were motivated try and change code that has been working production mode for years might back and triangulate every iteration you have more compute power than you know what with you might consider having every point interact with every other point but first read linear solutions the body problem there are lots papers the last years siggraph proceedings springs constraints and energy calculations which are relevant the above method described more less detail inproceedings sloan author sloan kenneth and david meyers and christine curcio title reconstruction and display the retina booktitle proceedings graphics interface vision interface address vancouver canada pages month may year techreport curcio author christine curcio and kenneth sloan and david meyers title computer methods for sampling reconstruction display and analysis retinal whole mounts number institution department computer science university washington address seattle month december year article curcio author christine curcio and kenneth sloan and david meyers title computer methods for sampling reconstruction display and analysis retinal whole mounts journal vision research volume number pages year kenneth sloan computer and information sciences sloan cis uab edu university alabama birmingham campbell hall uab station fax birmingham
comp.graphics	outlining spline surface about year ago started work problem that appeared very simple and turned out quite difficult wondering anyone the net has seen this problem and hopefully some published solutions the problem draw outline surface defined two roughly parallel cubic splines for inputs the problem essentially starts with two sets points where each set points the edge object which treat two dimensional only extant between the edges but which exists three dimensional space draw the object fit cubic spline through the points each spline effectively computed sequence line segments approximating the curve each spline has equal number segments assume that the nth segment along each spline roughly but not exactly the same distance along each spline any reasonable measure take each segment along each spline and match the nth segment the opposing spline use the pair segments form two triangles which will filled color the surface depth sort the triangles take each triangle sorted order project onto pixmap draw and color the triangle take the edge the triangle that along the edge the surface and draw line along that edge colored with special edge color the edge coloring step that the heart the problem the idea effectively outline the edge the surface the net result however generally has lots breaks and gaps the edge the surface the reasons for this are fairly complicated they involve both rasterization problems and problems resulting from the projecting the splines anything about this problem sounds familiar would appreciate knowing about other work this area thanks
comp.graphics	flat globe does anybody have algorithm for flattening out globe any other parametric surface that definied parametrically that would like take sheet paper and knife and able calculate how must cut the paper can fold globe any other object marco seirio real life marse caligula his
comp.graphics	images earth article apr ruu clldomps ruu louis van dompselaar writes kod hawnews watson ibm com ricky watson ibm com rick turner writes look the pub space directory ames arc nasa gov there are number earth images there you may have hunt around the subdirectories things tend filed under the mission apollo rather than under the image subject for those you who don need bit got colour amiga iff cloudless earth scanned looks okay when mapped sphere mail and send you beware there only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated known protect that copyright that image took hundreds man hours build from the source satellite images unlikely that competing images will appear soon
comp.graphics	newsgroup split concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon
comp.graphics	surface intersections marse lina marco seirio writes have problem with intersections between two surfaces does anybody have easy understand algorithm for that maybe even source marco seirio real life marse caligula his you also have severe problem with news headers ftp purdue edu pub vanecek and pull proxima tar and proxima tres spif lance norskog thinman netcom com data not information not knowledge not wisdom
comp.graphics	page flipping vga mode help how you write the second bank page memory when vga colour mode perform page flipping animation and buffering the screen have tried using the map mask registers but this does not perform the required task although does something note must able work standard vga not necessarily svga card many thanx advance andrew
comp.graphics	imagine hello again netters finally received the information about imagine for the they are presently shipping version the software and will release version the first quarter they say the upgrade from purchase imagine costs you are upgrading from another eligible call them for info modeler only plus shipping handling requires with megs math coprocessor and dos and microsoft mouse and svga card thanks for all your replies about the product have received many contrasting replies but once scrounge the money together think will take the plunge thanks again here the info for impulse you want find out more get the sheet they sent impulse inc xerxes avenue north minneapolis thanks again for all your replies scott scott snowiss sasst pitt edu turn jack jack out
comp.graphics	pcx freenet carleton where there book code that will teach how read and write pcx dbf and gif files how access the extra ram paradise video board can paging the higher vga modes anybody got line good book help answer these question here are some that have that are very good graphics file formats kay and levine isbn supercharged bitmapped graphics rimmer isbn programmer guide the ega and vga cards ferraro isbn has whole chapter paradise svga dave deluxe
comp.graphics	vga passthrough cables does anyone know the phone number place where can get vga passthrough want hook vga card xga card whcih you can can all need the cable that connects them the same type cable that you would connect from your vga card say video blaster something thanks brad
comp.graphics	detecting double points bezier curves looking for any information detecting and calculating double point and cusp bezier curve algorithm literature reference mail about this very appreciated ferdinand
comp.graphics	computer graphics vcr getting image from computer monitor videotape harder than looks the standard vga and ega outputs are very different than the ntsc format used televisions while there equipment that will the conversion hard get your hands and costs quite bit you have access amiga computer that has ntsc output you can transfer certain types graphic files modem and tape them from the ntsc output unfortunately this would frame frame and would lead unbelievably scratchy animation unless you had good amiga animation program otherwise see your local public access cable station has equipment that you can use
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article quvdoinn srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon agree with you raist new owner colors from bit palette love new low fat sig don mail don have valid address nor can send mail
comp.graphics	ellipse again everyone because one has touched the problem posted last week guess question was not clear now like describe detail the offset ellipse the locus the center circle which rolls the ellipse other words the distance between the ellipse and its offset same everywhere this problem comes from the geometric measurement when probe used the tip the probe ball and the computer just outputs the positions the ball center the offset ellipse still ellipse the answer ironically dmis american indutrial standard says ellipse almost all the software which was implemented the base dmis was wrong the software was also sold internationaly imagine how many people have will suffer from this bug how many qualified parts with ellipse were will discarded and most importantly how many defective parts with ellipse are will used was employed consultant company los angeles last year specially solve this problem spent two months analysis this problem and six months programming now solution nonlinear not ideal because can only reconstruct ellipse from its entire half offset very difficult find the original ellipse from quarter segment its offset because the method used not analytical now wondering didn touch the base and make things complicated please give hint know you may argue this not problem you are right not however many people involved the problem sphere from poits why not ellipse and why not its offset please post here and let the others share our interests got several emails from our netters they said they need the summary the answers yeh usc
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article quvdoinn srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon agree with you cause try daemon yeh usc
comp.graphics	wayne rigby sorry clog the news group with this message wayne rigby have the info you requested but for some reason can not mail you please contact send email address real programmer can function without caffeine zen art internet john muller muller diego llnl gov muller sisal llnl gov jmuller libserv sunysb edu you are not drunk until you have grab the grass keep the grass from falling off the earth some stupid comedian
comp.graphics	cview answers mik uky edu bryan williams writes majority users not readding from floppy well how about those who have picture roms and would like use cview because fast and works well but can because the moron lacked the foresight create the temp file the program path not the current didrectory actually the most flexible way create temp files check for temp tmp environment variable and create the files the drive and directory pointedto the variable this pretty much standard for dos windows and applications what have say own opinion and has bearing any other person organization including employer rknight salestech com sales technologies inc
comp.graphics	help splitting trimming region along mesh have problem hope some the gurus can help solve background the problem have rectangular mesh the domain the mesh mapping bezier patch into the area this domain which inside trimming loop had rendered the trimming loop set bezier curve segments for the sake notation the mesh made cells problem this the trimming area has split into individual smaller cells bounded the trimming curve segments cell wholly inside the area then output whole else trivially rejected does any body know how thiss can done there any algo somewhere for doing this any help would appreciated thanks ani get irritated human stay cool divine
comp.graphics	detecting double points bezier curves article oeinck waterland wlink ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink ferdinand oeinck writes looking for any information detecting and calculating double point and cusp bezier curve algorithm literature reference mail about this very appreciated there was very useful article one the issues transactions graphics believe maureen stone was one the authors sorry not more specific don have the reference here with the article actually was more general than this giving way decide whether given cubic bezier curve contains cusps intersection points whatever wierdness the same treatment also available siggraph course notes for the course called math for siggraph something like that memory jbulf kpc com
comp.graphics	video out article apr nwnexus com mscrap halcyon com marta lyall writes organization world information your fingertips keywords article toontown columbiasc ncr com craig toontown columbiasc ncr com craig williamson writes getting ready buy multimedia workstation and would like little advice need graphics card that will video and out under windows was originally thinking targa but that doesn work under windows what cards should looking into thanks craig forgive divine craig williamson airhead human craig williamson columbiasc ncr com balki bartokomas craig toontown columbiasc ncr com home perfect strangers craig you should still consider the targa run windows all the time work and works fine think all you need the right driver josh west email mscrap halcyon com also puts out two new products for windows model numbers elude now bit video board with framegrabber and bit with same yesterday was looking product local software etc store media vision makes bit color frame capture board that stand alone and doesnot use the feature connector your existing video card claims upto fps live capture well single frame from either composite ntsc video and out don lewis djlewis ualr edu
comp.graphics	stand alone editing suite need some help are upgrading our animation video editing stand are looking into the different type setups for roll and cuts only station would like this controlled computer brand doesnt matter but maybe mac amiga low end high end system setups would very helpful you have system use system that might use could you mail your system requirements what used for and all the hardware and software that will necessary set the system you need more info you can mail eylerken washington edu thanks advance ken eylerken washington edu
comp.graphics	help grasp article apr baron edb tih havardn edb tih haavard nesse writes could anyone tell possible save each frame grasp animation gif jpg iff any other picture formats you have the grasp animation system then yes quite easy you simply use glib extract the image each frame actually complete pcx clp file then use one many available utilities convert you don have the grasp package afraid can help you sorry the way before you ask grasp graphics animation system for professionals commercial product that sells for just over from most mail order companies seen and don have corey webb corey webb for much wisdom much grief and cbw vma smsu edu that increaseth knowledge increaseth bitnet cbw smsvma sorrow ecclesiastes the means only but first are you experienced speaking for myself jimi hendrix
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac article apr kth jwa hemul nada kth jon wtte writes cellar org tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes building cad package and need graphics library that can handle some rudimentry tasks such hidden line removal shading animation etc can you please offer some recommendations think apda has something called macwireframe which full wire frame and supposedly hidden line removal library think weighs but been wrong order magnitude before spoke with the author macwireframe earlier today the cost but there are license royalties his name eric johnson sacramento phone doesn have email very nice guy very knowledgeable about graphics seems like may have decent package object pascal framework that supposedly has fairly complete set geometry creation classes going check out and see got what need for cad package also found another package graphic tools micro system options seattle the number also email the package strong ray tracing not too sure about its geometry creation tools also need look into this package some more also spoke with the author mark owens another nice guy that seems know his business the price royalties bobc
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac article qnm finn tamsun tamu edu brentb tamsun tamu edu brent writes tsa cellar org the silent assassin writes rgc bcstec boeing com robert carpenter writes can you please offer some recommendations really not that hard there are books out there which explain everything and the basic functions translation rotation shading and hidden line removal are pretty easy wrote program few weeks witht help book and would happy give you source think wanted avoid reinventing the wheel yes want concentrate other development issues created graphics libraries before too time consuming life too short also quickdraw has lot functions built and think pascal can access them and would expect that think could well you can find out how use the quickdraw graphics library would excellent choice since has lot stuff and built into the mac should fast just clarify the routines that are mentioned various places the mac are libray not the rom the mac few years ago before knew anything about implementing graphics came across demo the apple grafsys library and actually did lot however quite limited the sense that low level library your code still has plot individual points draw each line etc nauseum has nothing for example where you can handle objects thanks for the clarification before posting original request had looked into the mac capabilities and dismissed them low grade bobc
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cpu doesn help much either understand supposedly variation running something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup don get too excited signetics not motorola gave the its number the understand rightly uses the instruction set and has chip serial port and dma will run mhz typing computer using running that rate know that can seriously doubt the clock rate that ricardo rchland vnet ibm com claims james jones
comp.graphics	wanted multi page gif searching for packages that could handle multi page gif files are there any some ftp servers appreciate one which works either dos windows but any package works unix will thanks advance
comp.graphics	physics lab loses number please need the starting address pointer for the beginning the color information rgb vga mode that hex gee duh thanks soooo much hugs and kisses advance john uci mail eapu orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	articles flocking all can someone point towards some articles boids flocking algorithms also articles particle animation formulas would nice james kewageshig uucp james kewageshig canrem com fidonet james kewageshig deluxe head this signature virus canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.graphics	under dos recently found for dos subdirectory gnu gnuish use frequently sun spark station and never had problems but when start computer with option display the help menu and when start with gif file hard disk turns seconds and the prompt come back computer little with copro mega rams tseng running dos with himem sys and emm sys had the exe too but driver who run with somenone know the solution run any help would apprecied thanx advance pascal perret perret eicn etna ecole ing nieur ets not available this time locle suisse enjoy computer
comp.graphics	need polygon splitting algo the idea clip one polygon using another polygon not necessarily rectangular window problem then finding out all the new vertices the resulting subpolygons from the first one this simply matter extending the usual algorithm whereby each the edges one polygon checked against another polygon there simpler way comments welcome noel
comp.graphics	jensen bitmap code greetings all according faq read july joshua jensen posted article bitmap manipulation specifically scaling and perspective the newsgroup rec games programmer article the article included source code turbo pascal with inline assembly language have been unable find archive for this newsgroup current email address for joshua jensen anyone has the above details copy the code could they please let know many thanks yours gratefully etc myles myles strous email myles strous lib monash edu raytracing fan phone got the same urgent grasp reality cardboard cut out proud have him the team archchancellor mustrum ridcully reaper man terry pratchett
comp.graphics	hdf readers viewers wrote day all can anybody point utility which will read convert crop whatnot display hdf image files had look the hdf stuff under ncsa and must take award for odd directory structure strange storage approaches and minimalist documentation and has since turned out that all the mirror sites looked were fooled restructuring the original site zaphod ncsa uiuc edu and hence were mess that and pointer imconv should get started muchly cheers markus markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax
comp.graphics	motion video card yuv rgb trying convert motion ibm video file format yuv rgb data the portion byte from the byte the color and and the intensity does anyone have any ideas for algorhtyms programs can someone tell where get info the and television signal you need more info reply the mail address basically what doing converting digital ntsc format rgb vga for displaying captured video pictures thanks the byte
comp.graphics	tseng pixel clock would like program tseng nonstandard mode switching standard mode using bios and than changing some timing details registers but don know how select mhz pixel clock need the bios function selects mhz there anybody who knows where obtain technical info about this also interested any other technical information about tseng and trident and chipsets thanks very much pavel zemcik dept comp sci eng technical university brno bozetechova brno czech republic mail zemcik dcse fee vutbr
comp.graphics	sun ipx root window display background picture hello netters have fairly weak question ask everybody netland looked though the last faq for comp graphics but didn find answer thus the post keep short question how display any raster files gif files iff tiff images that have root window background have sun ipc openwindows sun that helps any compiled pov for the sun and would like display some the work have done background tile thanks for any help information that you provide have good day scott fleming osi kudo the people who provided pov its great
comp.graphics	hdf readers viewers day all can anybody point utility which will read convert crop whatnot display hdf image files had look the hdf stuff under ncsa and must take award for odd directory structure strange storage approaches and minimalist documentation part the problem that want look large hdf files and crop out section ideally would like hdftoppm type utility from which can then use the pbmplus stuff quite merrily can convert the cropped part into another format for viewing animation otherwise can someone please explain how set the ncsa visualisation for hdf beta and the above cropping etc this for suns with sunos any help greatly appreciated muchly cheers markus markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax markus buchhorn parallel computing research facility email markus octavia anu edu australian national university canberra australia international australia phone fax
comp.graphics	grayscale printer jian jian coos dartmouth edu wrote are interested purchasing grayscale printer that offers good resoltuion for grayscale medical images can anybody give some recommendations these products the market particular those under thank for the advice peter hauke brunel university psh brunel
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance ulrich galki toppoint wrote according the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance when first read this rotfl finally some philosphy technical spec but still wondered what makes significant last week read the hitchhikers guide the galaxy and rotfl the second time after millions years calculation the second best computer all time reveals that the answer the question about life the universe and everything this actually how they picked the number yes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from don know where douglas adams took from but pretty sure the one who launched the guide since then been showing all over the place one thing for sure the sheep not creature the earth joachim kih the back masking haaden from exposure robert fripp
comp.graphics	need viewer for files article dux dundee dwestner cardhu mcs dundee dominik westner writes the subject says all there viewer for files for try xviewgl filename xviewgl tar lots bases ove what you think yep too this real life ove petter tro ford fairlane kongsberg college engineering norway email ovep kih
comp.graphics	bit mode speedstar have diamond speedstar board that want program for bit graphics possibly bit color does anybody have any libraries supporting these modes this board even somes simple routines set the graphics mode and plot individual pixels would great help plan use the routines with djgp thanks advance please respond also via mail david max max slinky nyu edu
comp.graphics	flat globe marse kristin marco seirio writes does anybody have algorithm for flattening out globe any other parametric surface that definied parametrically that would like take sheet paper and knife and able calculate how must cut the paper can fold globe any other object there library map projections charon usgs gov pub proj tar
comp.graphics	motion video card yuv rgb contact you offline about this rick
comp.graphics	under dos mail address eicn etna writes recently found for dos subdirectory gnu gnuish please tell where you where you ftp this from would like have copy would have mailed you but your post indicates you have mail address wayne michael wdm world std com
comp.graphics	rumours about article apr microware com jejones microware com james jones writes article apr mercury unt edu sean mcmains mcmains unt edu writes article apr rchland ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado ricardo rchland vnet ibm com writes and cpu doesn help much either understand supposedly variation running something like mhz with this speed you truly need sprites wow very interested get hands one these especially considering the fact that motorola has not yet released the which supposedly the next the lineup don get too excited signetics not motorola gave the its number the understand rightly uses the instruction set and has chip serial port and dma will run mhz typing computer using running that rate know that can seriously doubt the clock rate that ricardo rchland vnet ibm com claims james jones just because the can run upto mhz doesn mean the running that speed said understand running something like mhz not sure but think read this long time ago anyway still with mhz you need sprites for lot tricks for making cool awesome games read psygnosis raist new owner colors from bit palette love new low fat sig don mail don have valid address nor can send mail
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article quvdoinn srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious must agree there dizzying number amiga newsgroups already addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one these categories also readily observable that the current spectrum amiga groups already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not all likelihood bring about more structured environment michael nerone shall with customary lack tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will obliged nerone ccwf utexas edu pardon sagredo fictional char galileo
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance article apr samba oit unc edu cptully med unc edu christopher tully pathology writes why tight for that matter tiff out now why not gripe about its problems also its important you volunteer help define critique the spec got the spec obviously since quoted last posting gripe about tiff that far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier write than read which think hurts your acceptance anything that will need read those images paint programs nutshell don think tiff salvageable unless the fat trimmed significantly and then wouldn tiff anymore they keep trying cut back but late now maybe they will fix and change that magic number signify the lack compatibility that would probably make happy
comp.graphics	fonts pov the rtrace ray tracer supports text primitive not collections spheres cylinders and the chars are made lines and splines that are extruded please have look asterix inescn directory pub rtrace pub rtrace tmp there are some demo images with high quality text all them are called text jpg jpeg encoded see them first and then tell what you think regards antonio antonio costa mail acc asterix inescn acosta porto inescn comp graphics cad decnet porto costa largo mompilher uucp mcvax porto portugal bell let the good times roll
comp.graphics	rtrace there new version the rtrace ray tracing package asterix inescn directory pub rtrace check the readme file rtrace now can use the suit toolkit have nice user interface compile with dsuit modify the makefile suit available suit uvacs virginia edu have binaries rtrace with suit for sun sparc sgi indigo and dos please contact interested the mac rtrace port directory pub rtrace macintosh thanks reid judd reid judd east sun com and greg ferrar gregt function mps ohio state edu small changes were done since version mainly now possible discard backface polygons and triangles for fast preview the support program scn sff has been reworked use temp files here goes short description current converters from cad molecular chemistry packages the scn format the package programs are related below those marked with have been modified irit scn irit nff nffclean nffp sol scn acad nff sff mol scn scn sff rtrace alchemy scn sff pic ppm cpp pdb scn picmix pdb picblend ppmmix chem scn ppmblend chemical scn studio scn iris inventor the dos port rtrace pub rtrace rtrac arj utils arj and image arj see the readme file there requires djgpp dos extender version included which can found directory pub djgpp and many sites around netland there are also demo scenes manuals and all the source code please feel free get and use hope you like regards antonio costa antonio costa mail acc asterix inescn comp graphics cad decnet porto acosta largo mompilher uucp mcvax porto portugal bell let the good times roll
comp.graphics	images earth apr unocal com stgprao unocal com richard ottolini writes beware there only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated known protect that copyright that image took hundreds man hours build from the source satellite images unlikely that competing images will appear soon they should sue the newspaper got from for printing the article didn say anything about copyrights louis hanging your words living your breath feeling with your skin will always here your room
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article nerone apr sylvester utexas edu nerone ccwf utexas edu michael nerone writes article quvdoinn srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious must agree there dizzying number amiga newsgroups already addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one these categories also readily observable that the current spectrum amiga groups already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not all likelihood bring about more structured environment michael nerone shall with customary lack tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will obliged nerone ccwf utexas edu pardon sagredo fictional char galileo might nice know what possible different hard ware platforms but usually the hard ware fixed case either unix dos not much interested amiga news the case software won get any comercial software mentioned this newgroup run unix platform not interested this information would suggest split the group don see the problem cross posting then you need read just newgroups with half the size but what would more important have faq this would reduce the traffic lot sincerely gerhard writing this privat person not reflecting any opinions the inst hydromechanics the university karlsruhe the land baden wuerttemberg the federal republic germany and the european community the address and phone number below are just get touch with everything saying writing and typing always wrong statement necessary avoid law suits dipl ing gerhard bosch voice institute for hydromechanic fax university karlsruhe kaiserstrasse karlsruhe germany internet bosch ifh bau verm uni karlsruhe bitnet dkauni bitnet
comp.graphics	wanted info image databases guess the subject says all would like references any introductory material image databases please send any pointers mini point uwm edu thanx advance mini mini point uwm edu mini csd csd uwm edu
comp.graphics	lyon lamb minivas control abekas have minivas and want record abekas have most the functions working but when set record the minivas hangs are sending the abekas smpte time code does anyone have code can compare what have done and there and ftp site for minivas and abekas code gordon phillips glp cray com gordon phillips glp cray com
comp.graphics	stay away from mag innovision sar uakron edu sar uakron edu steve rimar writes mag works fine mine was beautiful for year and half then went foomp bought viewsonic instead another great monitor imho kevin martin sigma rahul net gotta get another hat
comp.graphics	detecting double points bezier curves oeinck waterland wlink ferdinand oeinck writes looking for any information detecting and calculating double point and cusp bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose geometric characterization parametric cubic curves acm tog vol july ron capelli ibm corp dept capelli vnet ibm com box poughkeepsie there are answers only cross references
comp.graphics	help grasp cbw vma smsu edu ext corey webb writes article apr baron edb tih havardn edb tih haavard nesse writes could anyone tell possible save each frame grasp animation gif jpg iff any other picture formats you have the grasp animation system then yes quite easy you simply use glib extract the image each frame actually complete pcx clp file then use one many available utilities convert you don have the grasp package afraid can help you sorry the way before you ask grasp graphics animation system for professionals commercial product that sells for just over from most mail order companies seen and don have corey webb there are several public domain utilities available your usual archive site that allow extraction single frames from file check the graphics directories under grasp the problem that the clp files you generate cannot decoded any the many format converters have used any hint welcome let know you have problems locating the utilities hope helps jacques oberto oberto genes icgeb trieste
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance ratatosk uninett joachim kih joachim lous writes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from don know where douglas adams took from but pretty sure the one who launched the guide since then been showing all over the place douglas adams once said paraphrased from memory just picked seemed like the sort number you wouldn afraid take home meet your parents nice and even perfectly normal kevin martin sigma rahul net gotta get another hat
comp.graphics	under dos apr eicn etna mail address eicn etna writes somenone know the solution run any help would apprecied would guess that requires almost certainly which commonly uses the djgpp setup for its programs you don have running you can get anything which requires interfacing with kevin martin sigma rahul net gotta get another hat
comp.graphics	postscript driver for gino does anybody know where can get via anonymous ftp otherwise postscript driver for the graphics libraries gino verison are runnining vax vms and are looking for way outputing our plots postscript file thanks advance koon tang internet ktt unix bton department mathematical sciences uucp uknet itri ktt university brighton brighton
comp.graphics	info medical imaging systems anyone into medical imaging have good ray tracing background and interested that field could you point some sources better yet you have any experience you want talk about what going what you working thanks jason freund
comp.graphics	paradise vga have paradise svga with the chip the docs say that can display the following modes colours and cols have the ramdac hicolor chip have checked the board and have such chip now the problem that can get this mode work graphics workshop claims that can display bit images dithered down bit colour with board but doesn work have tried writing some assembler code get the modes working and have found out that each pixel addressed word bit but only the lower bits are considered this happens mode the mode refuses work remains text mode could someone please help tristan
comp.graphics	anti aliasing utility wanted currently using povray mac and was wondering anyone netland knows public domain anti aliasing utilities that can skip this step pov very slow this machine any suggestions opinions about post trace anti aliasing would greatly appreciated helmut dotzlaw dept biochemistry and molecular biology university manitoba winnipeg canada dotzlaw ccu umanitoba
comp.graphics	another cview question was cview answers has anybody gotten cview work color mode trident color card best the colors come out screwed and worst the program hangs loaded the vesa driver and the same thing happens different machines doesn work the trident does anybody know viewer that does thanx lisa
comp.graphics	sun ipx root window display background picture not sure you got the information you were looking for post anyway for the general public load image your root window add this line the end your xsession file xloadimage onroot fullscreen gif file name this assuming course you have the xloadimage client and for the switches think they pretty much explain what going you leave out the the terminal locks till you kill you already knew that though hope this helps daemon
comp.graphics	wanted multi page gif article apr worak kaist stjohn math kaist ryou seong joon writes searching for packages that could handle multi page gif files you are looking for viewer try vpic lasse mits mdata
comp.graphics	ray tracer for dos sorry for the repeat this request but does anyone know good free shareware program with which can create ray traces and save them bit mapped files course there such thing thanks advance daemon
comp.graphics	images earth they should sue the newspaper got from for printing the article didn say anything about copyrights sure the whole newspaper copyrighted they could have gotten permission use the image under their own copyright mark
comp.graphics	images earth article apr ruu clldomps ruu louis van dompselaar writes apr unocal com stgprao unocal com richard ottolini writes beware there only one such copyrighted image and the company that generated known protect that copyright that image took hundreds man hours build from the source satellite images unlikely that competing images will appear soon they should sue the newspaper got from for printing the article didn say anything about copyrights explicit necessary the image attributed the geosphere company then there likelihood permission has been given reprint unlikely that the owner can will after individuals however interesting images make their way into ads and computer demos that when pirate might get some flak this image considered interesting that many people would like use whenever some global map needed there lots temptation one mail person said since the source data satellite imagery not copyrighted then the derived image can not true new distinctive creative expression the data can protected this image certainly fits such since one else has taken the tremendous effort create themselves precedent recent telephone book court case bell tried copyright the data their books and prevent competitors from copying there are trick entries the book but the court only permitted copyright the expression the data and not the data themselves you cant xerox and sell the telephone book there will more attention digital copyrights the future and computer becomes mass product and moguls such bill gates are currently hoarding the digital copyrights prefer that geosphere put this data the public domain because very interesting and others but that the way things are
comp.graphics	images earth downloaded image the earth constructed from elevation data taken degree increments the author not wrote some code included that read the data file and generated and pseudo color images they work very well and are not incumbered copyright they are aminet site near you called earth lha the amiga pix misc area refer you the included docs for the details how the author sorry forget his name created these images the raw data not included david david ingebretsen evans sutherland computer corp dingebre thunder sim com disclaimer the content this message way reflects the opinions employer nor are actions encouraged supported acknowledged employer
comp.graphics	need polygon splitting algo article qvq wampyr uow edu wampyr uow edu coronado emmanuel abad writes the idea clip one polygon using another polygon not necessarily rectangular window problem then finding out all the new vertices the resulting subpolygons from the first one this simply matter extending the usual algorithm whereby each the edges one polygon checked against another polygon there simpler way comments welcome noel depends what kind the polygons convex simple concave trouble concave with loop inside big trouble cause you can use the box test avoid checking each edges according experience there not simple way the headache stuff deal with the special cases for example the overlapped lines yeh usc
comp.graphics	images earth article apr ruu clldomps ruu louis van dompselaar writes they should sue the newspaper got from for printing the article didn say anything about copyrights the newspaper itself almost certainly copyrighted its entirety newspapers generally employ legal staffs which make sure they get permission use copyrighted image text did you the same john john humpal johnh jhunix hcf jhu edu short sig std disclaimer
comp.graphics	comp graphics programmer article qukk innd names nerdc ufl edu lioness maple circa ufl edu writes however that almost overkill something more like this would probably make everyone lot happier comp graphics programmer comp graphics hardware comp graphics apps comp graphics misc that closer but dislike apps software hardware would better would that engulf alt graphics pixutils would that programmer don know traffic really heavy enough warrant newsgroup split look how busy comp graphics research not true that lot the traffic here rehashing faqs and discussing things that would probably better diverted system specific groups but don know whether split would help hurt that cause maybe need comp graphics rtfb for all those people who can bothered read the fine books out there right rogers
comp.graphics	stand alone editing suite article qvkaeinngat shelley washington edu eylerken stein washington edu ken eyler writes need some help are upgrading our animation video editing stand are looking into the different type setups for roll and cuts only station would like this controlled computer brand doesnt matter but maybe mac amiga low end high end system setups would very helpful you have system use system that might use could you mail your system requirements what used for and all the hardware and software that will necessary set the system you need more info you can mail eylerken washington edu thanks advance ken eylerken washington edu here lewis and clark college have recently installed digital film system based the mac quadra that does non linear full digital editing you considering such system here are the pros and cons for the educational environment this system excellent use produce variety educational materials for disemination our local network because this programming going viewed other macs the image quality not important the ability directly export the video the net also use produce orientiation and promotional video programs for use the lewis clark community since these programs are not meant for commercial broadcast use image quality not critical the digital film system for those you who are uninitiated roll digitizing system one jpeg compression card was promoted inexpensive online editing system with svhs quality supermac the maker the card trying achieve this quality level but yet has been unable deliver our system produces near vhs quality fields per second overscan the card repeats every other field get fields per second this results kind super film look that some find distracting you can get past this problem you find the adobe premier editing software quite enjoyable with which work produces thousands different effects from crystalize filters dve transitions color matting because its non linear nature editing fast and easy you ever used seen used avid montage system you recognize the methodology and the user interface the total system with quadra megs ram gig drive apple mon itor panasonic svhs edit deck audio gear cassette mixer etc composite monitor digital film card will set you back about for you video cowboys and girls this system will not output quality that will satisfy most your clients even though you can perform more effects than toasterhead can imagine amiga based off line based system will look better use both macs and amigas for our video work each for what each does best dan snodgrass media services lewis clark college portland
comp.graphics	problems please note the newsgroups recent discussion about problems were held some newsgroup here some text users might find interesting have added more text this collection article read even you articles while ago hope author corrects those problems best can fine program that worth improving have also minor ideas for bit mail for them any misundertanding mine understandable juhana kouhia clip deleted note that saves only bit rasterized images that means that the saved jpegs are just like jpeg gif jpeg quality also there three kind bit quantizers your final image quality depends them too this were the situation when read jpeg faq while ago imho design error there should not such confusing errors programs there two errors allows the saving bit rasterized image jpeg even the original bit saving bit rasterized image instead original bit should special case allows saving the bit rasterized image made with any quantizer the main case should that quantizes the image with the best quantizer available before saving the image file lousier quantizers should just for viewing purposes and special cases saving the image all clip clip deleted limit but not limit design error design error that bit quantized rasterized images are stored jpegs jpeg not designed that matter fact sure when were designed bit displays were known not bad error program program for bit images only that time but when bit image formats are included program the whole design should changed support bit images that were not done and now have the program violate jpeg design and any bit image format the program has human interface errors otherway drop saving images jpegs any bit format without clearly saying that special case and not expected normal use deleted clip some new items follows clip have seen that quantizes the image sometimes poorly with best option than with default option have the reason surely the quantizer used best surprise the same than used ppmquant you remember have tested some quantizers that test found that rlequant with default best then comes djpeg fbmquant our default that order test ppmquant suggeeded very poorly actually gave image with bad artifacts don know ppmquant improved any but expect use best option not very good idea suggest that author changes the quantizer the one used rlequant sure rle people gives permission another could one used imagemagick have not tested can say nothing about clip clip some minor bugs human interface are key pressings and cursor clicks goes buffer often happens that make click errors press keyboard when cursor the wrong place very annoying when you have waited image come about five minutes and then gone away immediately the buffer should cleaned when the image complete also good idea wait few seconds before activating keyboard and mouse for after the image completed often happens that image pops the screen quickly just when writing something with editor such those key pressings then and image has gone something weird the color editor when turn color meter and release updates the images impossible change all rgb values first and then get the updated image annoying wait image updated when the setting are not ready yet suggest adding apply button update the exchanges done clip
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article quvdoinn srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes from tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw subject newsgroup split date apr gmt concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon actuallay don but the other hand don support the idea having one newsgroup for every aspect graphics programming proposed brian his reply original posting would suggest looser structure more like comp graphics programmer comp graphics and the reason for making few groups possible for the same reason you say shouldn spilt not get few postings every day takes much time browse through all postings just find two three interested understand and agree when you say you want all aspects graphics one meeting agree some extension see news forum exchange ideas help others helped think this difficult achive there are many different things one meeting good evening netters arff also for the not religous confessor there mystery higher values who birth mankind the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized seldom you hear seeing man prizeing what sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden
comp.graphics	beta testers wanted for graphics libraries visual numerics inc formerly imsl and precision visuals the process securing sites for beta testing exponent graphics and exponent graphics both exponent graphics and exponent graphics are products the beta period from april through june the platform running under with ansi compiler the media will sent dat cartridge tape here are some the key facts about the two products exponent graphics key facts complete collection high level and application plot types available through large collection resources cstom widget for osf motif developers built interactive gui for plot customization easily implemented callbacks for customized application feedback xeg being built the toolkit provides the user widget library that conforms the expected syntax and standards familar programmers xeg will also sold bundle with visual edge uim product this will enable user use gui builder create the graphical layout application exponent graphics key facts written for application programmers developers the library written and the programming interface conforms standards taking advantage the most desirable features build gui for interactive plot customization through mouse interaction the user has complete interactive graph output control with over graphics attributes for plot customization large collection high level application functions for two call graph creation wide variety and plot types are available with minimal programming effort user ability interrupt and control the event controlling the event loop when the user use the mouse manipulate the plot the user can allow ceg control the event loop the user can control the event loop anyone interested beta testing either the products please contact wendy hou visual numerics via email hou imsl com call jaclyn brandt jbrandt neosoft com
comp.graphics	radiosity looking for source code for the radiosity method don know what kind machine you want for but the program radiance comes with source code don have ftp access couldn tell you where get via that way canada remote systems toronto ontario
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article nerone apr sylvester utexas edu nerone ccwf utexas edu michael nerone writes from nerone ccwf utexas edu michael nerone subject newsgroup split date apr article quvdoinn srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious must agree there dizzying number amiga newsgroups already addition there are very few issues which fall cleanly into one these categories also readily observable that the current spectrum amiga groups already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not all likelihood bring about more structured environment michael nerone shall with customary lack tact and internet address since you have asked for this you will obliged nerone ccwf utexas edu pardon sagredo fictional char galileo maybe should point out that are not talking about amiga only comp graphics arff also for the not religous confessor there mystery higher values who birth mankind the last builds upon they are indisputible and often disregarded seldom you hear them beeing prized seldom you hear seeing man prizeing what sees per lagerkvist the fist free translation from swedish andreas arff andreasa dhhalden
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal does anyone know software that will allow you convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps scodal this the only format our bureau filmrecorder recognises jeff lyall inst geo nuc sci ltd lower hutt new zealand
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed article gsq news cso uiuc edu osprey cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph rourke writes fast polygon routine what draw polygons course its vga mode game done and asm need faster way draw concave polygons that the method have right now which very slow what kind polygons shaded texturemapped more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons would nice know exaclty what system vga start but what processor and few the specifics the implementation you need give more info you want get any answers ian romanick dancing fool epsilon were the contained thoughts opinions epn ntsc quality best psu would probably not agree with them look don know anything about douche but know anti freeze when see the dead milkmen
comp.graphics	more radiosity article apr aragorn unibe you write let serious working radiosity package written would like make public domain announce the minute finished that were the good news the bad news take another months least finish are you using the traditional radiosity method progressive refinement something else your package you need project patches the hemi cube surfaces what technique are you using you have hardware facilitate the projection the meantime you may have look the file radiosity code tar located compute ncsu edu what are the guest username and password for this ftp site there are some other locations have look archie get the nearest hope that help yours stephan thanks stephan josephine
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance joachim kih joachim lous writes ulrich galki toppoint wrote according the tiff specification the tiff version number bytes has been chosen for its deep philosophical significance last week read the hitchhikers guide the galaxy and rotfl the second time after millions years calculation the second best computer all time reveals that the answer the question about life the universe and everything this actually how they picked the number yes does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from this moment the king who had been for some time busily writing his note book called out silence and read out from his book rule forty two all persons more than mile high leave the court everybody looked alice not mile high said alice you are said the king nearly two miles high added the queen well sha any rate said alice besides that not regular rule you invented just now the oldest rule the book said the king then ought number one said alice marc kaufman kaufman stanford edu
comp.graphics	another cview question reply apr rigel tamu edu lmp rigel tamu edu preston lisa have trident card and fullview works real gif jpg try dave
comp.graphics	univesa driver got the univesa driver available over the net thought that finally meg oak board would able show colors unfortunately program still says that can this the fault the program fractint there something wrong with card univesa free driver available over the net that makes many boards vesa compatible
comp.graphics	windows imagine sent off for copy today snail mail hope get back about ten days impulse said week hope good they claim jim nobles hope have what takes use
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed article pdxgate uucp idr rigel pdx edu ian romanick writes what kind polygons shaded texturemapped more comes into play with fast routines than just polygons would nice know exaclty what system vga start but what processor and few the specifics the implementation you need give more info you want get any answers don want texture mapped cause did asked for them just simple and fast routine filled polygons for the processor for minimum maybe can find good one for ideally want polyn function that can clip user defined viewport and write arbitrary location memory course the chances finding something like that are pretty remote guess need the source with and guess would need asm otherwise too slow seen some polygon routines and they all been waaay too slow its for vector graphics program been hunting high and low for polyn function asm and can find one anywhere that can use found one two polyn functions but asm pretty bad won even try rewrite them lucas
comp.graphics	ribbon information does anyone out there have know any kind utility program for ribbons ribbons are popular representation for shape trying find symmetry axis given any shape using ribbons any suggestions will greatly appreciated how start program thanks very much advance hoi yoo engr ucf edu
comp.graphics	need rgb data from saved images could someone please help find program figure out how extract values for each pixel image can convert between tga and everal other popular formats but need the values for use program writing thanks for the help
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed osprey cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes article apr sophia smith edu orourke sophia smith edu joseph rourke writes article news cso uiuc edu osprey cso uiuc edu lucas adamski writes but looking for fast polygon routine used game fast polygon routine what draw polygons course its vga mode game come across fast triangle fill draw routine for mode calling this routine enough times you have fast polygon drawing routine think ftp from wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads programming have copy reupload there the triangle txt file has this say and inline assembly source for vga mode triangle drawer stephen quan quan sol surv utas edu tel local research fellow computer scientist fax local centre for spatial information systems tel university tasmania australia fax
comp.graphics	fast wireframe graphics working program display wireframe models with the user being able arbitrarily change any the viewing parameters also the wireframe objects are also going have dynamic attributes that they can move around while the user exploring the wireframe world this thinking using the srgp package described the van dam foley and feiner book but was wondering there was another graphics package out there which was faster would like make the program fast possible that provides satisfactory real time performance sun ipx ideally looking for graphics package which will allow open new window under and allow draw lines within the window also would also need have some sort event driven interaction handling since the user going move around the wireframe models using the keyboard you know wrote such package would grateful you could direct ftp site which contains the package thank you yong kim class internet cunixb columbia edu columbia college columbia university ykim columbia edu
comp.graphics	sgi sales practices was crimson was kubota announcement qjrec qem network ucsd edu spl ivem ucsd edu steve lamont writes what annoyed about the fact that were led believe that would able upgrade multiprocessor version the crimson without the assistance fork lift truck should have been made fairly clear that the most crimson would ever get was old style mhz cpu upgrade certainly this was mentioned comp sys sgi more than one occasion being likely our sales folks were saying otherwise they were either confused less than honest ethical somebody further the chain inside sgi was misleading them also annoyed about being sold several personal irises previous site the understanding that architecture would around for while rather than being flushed there were versions although admittedly the came out the same time the over period years the chassis simply couldn pushed any further say years was pretty good lifespan myself for system design this day and age getting the work caused lot gray hairs both the hardware and product design groups would have been out our minds push further and know that was made clear almost from the day the started shipping had one last kicker the form the elan graphics which made graphics versions over its lifespan which also think pretty good now understand that sgi responsible its investors and has keep showing positive quarterly bottom line odd that found myself pressured least two occasions get the business the books just before the end the quarter but just little tired getting boned the process please all means send complaint letter through sgi support sales your concerns there should reason for sales folks misrepresent future upgrades customers sure sometimes there will confusion for while over whether upgrade will available but that shouldn last too long and doesn seem what you are referring yes the sales folks get bonus the end some all quarters but that pretty common industry wide and sometimes that can result good deals for customers sometimes probably pushes folks into systems that aren what they need sure but nobody forcing you buy end quarter after all maybe because lab buys sgis onesies and twosies aren entitled peek under the covers the big kids nasa for instance are this lab and suspect that lot other labs they don get all that long lead time either although certainly they get presentations possible new products and their opinions may well influence the end product but that also life the industry can design systems that meet just their needs won sell too many systems after all which not say that don have some niche products like reality engine and organizations doesn have load money spend computers every year can out buying new systems regular basis the boxes that buy now will have last pretty much through the entire grant period five years and some case beyond that means that need buy the best piece equipment that can when have the money not some product that was built paraphrase one previous poster words fill niche compete with some other vendor going looking this box for the next five years and every time look going think about sgi and how could have better spent money actually your money since supported almost entirely federal tax dollars but surely you don expect system you buy now for five year period constantly upgradable over that entire five year period that rather unreasonable expectation experience with workstations microcomputers supported and parts available yes but certainly not upgradable the latest and greatest now you have pardon while off and hiss and fume corner somewhere and think dark libelous thoughts missed your first posting but say all means share your frustation with somebody level inside sgi where might have effect not immediate sure but complaints aren going ignored and may affect future plans hear similar things from more than one person site all the above usual personal opinion not sgi let one tell that silence gives consent dave olson because whoever silent dissents silicon graphics inc maria isabel barreno olson sgi com start sabbatical may ask those questions now
comp.graphics	pascal fractals eve albany edu albnyvms bitnet heavy home
comp.graphics	detecting double points bezier curves article apr kpc com jbulf balsa berkeley edu jeff bulf writes article oeinck waterland wlink ferdinan oeinck waterland wlink ferdinand oeinck writes looking for any information detecting and calculating double point and cusp bezier curve algorithm literature reference mail about this very appreciated there was very useful article one the issues transactions graphics believe maureen stone was one the authors sorry not more specific don have the reference here with stone derose geometric characterization parametric cubic curves acm trans graphics manocha canny detecting cusps and inflection points curves computer aided geometric design pekka siltanen
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal coreldraw whatever write scodl files directly look under file export the main menu rick
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance marc kaufman kaufman xenon stanford edu wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from this moment the king who had been for some time busily writing his note book called out silence and read out from his book rule forty two all persons more than mile high leave the court everybody looked alice not mile high said alice you are said the king nearly two miles high added the queen well sha any rate said alice besides that not regular rule you invented just now the oldest rule the book said the king then ought number one said alice does anybody have collection occurances before and after the guide not would like receive any odd bits you might know postings alt fan douglas adams one thing for sure the sheep not creature the earth joachim kih the back masking haaden from exposure robert fripp
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance joachim lous joachim kih wrote ulrich galki toppoint wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from yep here theory that once heard bandied around rather than thinking the number think the sound for tea two sort anagram tea for two two for tea for tea two peter peter hauke brunel university psh brunel
comp.graphics	pascal fractals apparently editor didn what wanted try again looking for any programs code simple animation and drawing using fractals turbopascal for ibm thanks advance eve albany edu albnyvms bitnet heavy home
comp.graphics	irit pov has anybody made converter from irit irt dat format pov format thanks sebastian schmidt ilmenau institut praktische informatik
comp.graphics	rtrace comp graphics cad cgcad bart inescn wrote there new version the rtrace ray tracing package asterix inescn directory pub rtrace check the readme file cant seem reach the site from over here ping icmp net unreachable from gateway nsn fix sura net for icmp from ccws brunel possible for you upload more mainstream ftp place
comp.graphics	help grasp quoted from apr genes icgeb trieste oberto genes icgeb trieste jacques oberto file check the graphics directories under grasp the problem that the clp files you generate cannot decoded any the many format converters have used any hint welcome the lzh stuff under gfx show the aminet sites includes utility called pic that filter for hamlab that can handle the most commonly used kinds pic and clp files the biggest problem that the clp files don usually contain palette you need convert pic with the right palette first which creates ram picpal file and then convert the clp files jacques oberto oberto genes icgeb trieste john bickers tap jbickers templar actrix gen radioactivity the air for you and kraftwerk
comp.graphics	pbm plus sources where everybody can anyone name anonymous ftp site where can find the sources the pbm plus package portable bit gray pixel map would like compile and run sun sparcstation thanks
comp.graphics	fractals what good are they article mdpyssc mcc mdpyssc mcc sue cunningham writes have been using iterated systems compression board compress pathology images and are getting ratios without too much loss quality taking about mins per image compress mhz but decompression almost real time software alone how does that compare with jpeg the same images and hardware far size speed and image quality are concerned despite skeptical and sometimes nearly rabid postings criticizing barnsley and company very interested the technique weren probably wouldn critical
comp.graphics	univesa driver article news duke edu seth north acpub duke edu seth wandersman writes got the univesa driver available over the net thought that finally meg oak board would able show colors unfortunately program still says that can this the fault the program fractint there something wrong with card univesa free driver available over the net that makes many boards vesa compatible whats this color mode asking lot your hardware don lewis djlewis ualr edu
comp.graphics	more radiosity article yuma acns colostate edu longs lance colostate edu xia zhao writes article apr aragorn unibe you write let serious working radiosity package written would like make public domain announce the minute finished that were the good news the bad news take another months least finish are you using the traditional radiosity method progressive refinement something else your package package based several articles about non standard radiosity and some unpublished methods the main articles are cohen chen wallace greenberg progressive refinement approach fast radiosity image generation computer graphics siggraph august silion puech general two pass method integrating specular and diffuse reflection computer graphics siggraph july you need project patches the hemi cube surfaces what technique are you using you have hardware facilitate the projection not use hemi cubes have special hardware sun sparcstation the meantime you may have look the file radiosity code tar located compute ncsu edu what are the guest username and password for this ftp site use anonymous username and your mail address password there are some other locations have look archie get the nearest hope that help yours stephan thanks stephan josephine stephan stephan amann sig computer graphics university berne switzerland amann iam unibe tel fax projects radiosity raytracing computer graphics
comp.graphics	for dos this the response for wayne michael and certainly for other one sorry for the late the answer but couldn find for msdos cause forgot the address but retrieve posting this answer here comp graphics cause can use mail not yet bad english cause swiss and language french after long time retrieve the address where you can find for dos site omnigate clarkson edu aliases grape ecs clarkson edu number pub msdos djgpp pub zip think certainly you read the other answer from kevin martin write about what could someone answer thanx advance pascal perret perret eicn etna ecole ing nieur ets not available this time locle suisse enjoy computer
comp.graphics	studio any differences with previous version are there significant differences between and thank you for helping marc mail marc fombaron ufrima imag marc fombaron grenoble
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal does anyone know software that will allow you convert coreldraw cdr files containing bitmaps scodal this the only format our bureau filmrecorder recognises jeff lyall used this combination for while qcr recorder think and far remember corel can export scodal scd format just select export the main file menu this may not implemented earlier versions course which case you your own also seem think that the for the qcr the time did strange and very undesirable things any part the pic was outside the screen area corel once spent afternoon painfully discovering that one pixel had somehow strayed off screen causing whole slide blank the qcr also couldn handle grad fill over grad fill you use graduated colour background you then grad fill object top this the fill appears the final slide circle think and totally ignores the shape the object being filled course the recorder isn qcr you can ignore all this and feel suitably cheers toby toby freeman glasgow university freemant glasgow dcs
comp.graphics	oak vga please needd vesa tsr there well have with svga oak chip and don have vesa tsr program for this card need please anybody can help mail lulagos araucaria cec uchile thanks mackk ack
comp.graphics	paintbrush trying configure zsoft paintbrush for use with logitech scanman hand scanner but can get paintbrush acknowledge the scanner there anybody out there using paintbrush with scanner can you help out thanks luis nobrega the file bank bbs pcboard usr hst nodes rime internet largest clipper file collection the world
comp.graphics	for dos noe mailaddress eicn etna wrote sorry for the late the answer but couldn find for msdos cause forgot the address but retrieve posting this answer here comp graphics cause can use mail not yet bad english cause swiss and language french french your language try counting french stead maybe will work better one thing for sure the sheep not creature the earth joachim kih the back masking haaden from exposure robert fripp
comp.graphics	cview answers cyberspace buddha wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue rene walter writes over where places its temp files just places them its current directory have beg differ this point the batch file use launch cview the dir where cview resides and then invokes every time crash cview the byte temp file found the root dir the drive cview posted this well before the cview expert apparently thought knew better matthew zenkar moscom com
comp.graphics	image pictures there looking for advice software hardware package for making storing and processing pictures the ideal software would allow cahnge size the picture edit means add text below above and the most important would have dos command interface thank you advance emanuel marciniak the bank new york
comp.graphics	help needed hidden line removal looking for some information hidden line removal using roberts algorithm something with code pseudo code would especially helpful required this for class due monday have very little time implement these changes very fast paced class the notes given class leave lot desired would vastly appreciate any help actually any algorithm would nice roberts the main problem two objects intersecting and dimensions need know which lines clip off that one object will appear front another you can give ftp address and filename even the name good book really appreciate thanks brian raynor
comp.graphics	the otis project ftp sites for original art and images the otis project the operative term stimulate this file last updated what otis otis here for the purpose distributing original artwork and photographs over the network for public perusal scrutiny and distribution digital immortality the basic idea behind digital immortality that computer networks are here stay and that anything interesting you deposit them will around near forever the gifs and jpgs today will the artifacts digital future perhaps they put different formats perhaps only surviving backup tapes but they there and someone will dig them that doesn interest you otis also offers forum for critique and exhibition your works virtual art gallery that never closes and exists information dimension where your submissions will hang wallpaper thousands glowing monitors suddenly life breathed into your work and merit stimulus will travel the globe pulses light and electrons spectators are welcome also feel free browse the gallery and let the artists know what you think their efforts keep your own copies the images look when you got the gumption that what they here for where otis currently has two ftp sites projects otis the uwi site sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis the sunsite you can also gopher this site for otis well merely anonymous ftp either site internet and change the appropriate directory don forget get busy and use the bin command make sure you binary otis has also been spreading some dial bbs systems around north america the following systems have substancial supply otistuff underground cafe omaha lines cyberden sanfran usenet waffle iron how you contribute what happens you draw pretty picture take lovely photo get scanned into image file then either ftp put the contrib incoming directory use uuencode send email addresses eof email after the image received will put into the correct directory computer originated works are also welcome otis directories house two types image files gif and jpg gif and jpg files require oddly enough gif jpg viewer see these viewers are available for all types computers most large ftp sites around internet jpg viewers are bit tougher find you can find one but have gif viewer you can obtain jpg gif conversion program which will change jpg files standard gif format otis also accepts animation files when you submit image files please send email the same time stating information about what you uploaded and whether used publications other projects merely for people view also include some biographical information yourself having info files each contributing artist and their works you can also just upload text file info about yourself instead emailing you have pictures but scanner there hope merely send copies the otis project stastny omaha will either scan them myself get them someone who will scan them include ample sase you want your stuff back also include information each image preferably line description the image that can include the infofile the directory where finally put you have preferences what the images are named include those well conversely you have scanner and would like help out please contact and arrange things you want submit your works disk peachy merely send disk the above address omaha and sase you want your disk back this good for people who don have direct access encoders ftp but have access scanner accept disks either mac ibm compatible format possible please submit image files gif jpg you can can convert from most formats just rather not have senders request can also fill disks with much otis they can stand even you don have stuff contribute you can send blank disk and sase for disk postage and packing get slab otis about megabytes files and growing email for current archive size and directory distribution the images distributed the otis project may distributed freely the condition that the original filename kept and that not altered any way save convert from one image format another fact encourage files distributed local bulletin boards and such you could please transport the appropriate text files along with the images would also nice you send note when you did post images from otis your local bbs just want keep track them participants can have some idea how widespread their stuff the purpose otis get these images spread out much possible you have the time please upload few your favorite bbs system even just post this info file there would keen you use you want use any the works you find the otis directory you have check see permission has been granted and the stipulations the permission such free copy publication full address credit you will either find this the file for the image series images the artists directory under the artists name permission isn explicitly given then you have contact the artist ask for info available email cwis unomaha edu and get contact with the artist for you give you their contact information when you use permitted work always courteous let the artist know about perhaps even send them free copy some such compensation for their files naming images please keep the names your files dos format that means keep the filename before jpg gif eight characters less the way usually use the initials the artist plus three four digit code for the series images plus the series number thus leonardo devinci fifth mechanical drawing would something like ldmek gif ldmek jpg ldmech gif etc keeping the names under characters assures that the filename will remain intact all systems creating image files when creating image files sure least include your name somewhere below the picture this gives people reference case they like contact you you may also want include title address other information you like people know hmmm that about for now more guidelines will added needed your input expected disclaimer the otis project has connection the church otis sumerian deity followers they pope priest ezine administrator take sacrifices and donations however disclaimer the otis project here for the distribution original image files the files will the public large possible with any form mass media that someone could unscrupulously use your images for financial gain unless you given permission for that illegal otis takes responsibility for this simple terms all rights revert the author artist leave image otis give permission for viewed copied and distributed electronically you don want your images distributed all over don upload them leave image otis not giving permission have used any publication broadcast that incurs profit this includes but not limited magazines newsletters clip art software screen printed clothing etc you must give specific permission for this sort usage remember the operative term stimulate you know people that interested this sort thing get them involved kick the booty offer them free food whatever cwis unomaha edu sunsite unc edu stastny otis project end process sound news and arts ftp sunsite unc edu pub multimedia pictures otis omaha projects otis email cwis unomaha edu sunsite unc edu
comp.graphics	bus cards does anyone know bus video card based the card how much will cost where can get one does come with more than ram and what the windows performance like
comp.graphics	newsgroup split chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon yes also like knowing where ask question without getting hell for putting the wrong newsgroup phil martin
comp.graphics	sources for shading wanted looking for shading methods and algorithms please let know you know where get source codes for that thanks lot thomas thomas braun universitaet karlsruhe mail braun iravcl ira uka thomas braun university karlsruhe germany email braun iravcl ira uka ukay dkauni bitnet
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed sol surv utas edu stephen quan writes but looking for fast polygon routine used game fast polygon routine what draw polygons course its vga mode game come across fast triangle fill draw routine for mode calling this routine enough times you have fast polygon drawing routine think ftp from wuarchive wustl edu pub msdos uploads programming have copy reupload there the triangle txt file has this say and inline assembly source for vga mode triangle drawer another source there poly blitter for mode mode sunee uwaterloo also there rend even faster renderer with extensions life hardware dave stampe destiny software dstampe psych toronto edu cpu wetware dstampe sunee uwaterloo techno psychologist just psycho engineer
comp.graphics	one day graphics composites seminar sampe ncga the university akron and nasa lewis research center sponsoring computers and composites one day seminar devoted practical applications computer workstations for efficient processing design and manufacture composites may the university akron akron ohio speakers advancement graphics visualization jay horowitz nasa integrated product development with michael cowen network workstations sikorski aircraft structural analysis brian fite nasa stereolithography jason williams penn state erie molecular and physical modeling vassilios galiatsato polymer curing university akron process modeling polymer matrix composites ram upadhyay corporate registration fees advance site includes box lunch contact gary roberts nasa lewis research center write sampe regional seminar gary roberts nasa lewis research center brookpark cleveland ohio email and get gary chris johnston materials engineer nasa lewis research center internet chris sarah lerc nasa gov brookpark cleveland usa resistance futile
comp.graphics	ray tracing spline surfaces net due further investigation would like study the following article peterson ray tracing general splines proc acm mountain regional conference april unfortunately didn find any library register there anyone having access this paper knowing about library containing those proceedings preferrably germany please let know any help would appreciated thanks lot joerg haber joerg haber haberj mathematik muenchen mathematisches institut muenchen
comp.graphics	hitatchi raster format hrf our shop uses package called cadcore very good scan and subsequently vectorize original maps into digital maps the problem that once the raster file loaded into the cadcore package header added the hrf file which makes unreadable the supplied converter would like able ship some the already altered raster images for further use our workstations here are questions what the hitachi format need this format can recognize precisely what strip out strongly suspect that compressed format then might not possible for strip out the offending header are there any unix packages that read and recognize hrf would really nice find some sort hrftopbm converter out there already searched some the more well known ftp sites which contain graphics formats documentation with luck you know knwo someone who knows please email thanks
comp.graphics	windows bmp sun raster others anyone has converter from bmp any format that xview can handle this converter must run unix looked the faq and downloaded several packages but had luck thanks advance echen burn washington edu
comp.graphics	cview answers article moscom com moscom com matthew zenkar writes cyberspace buddha wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue rene walter writes over where places its temp files just places them its current directory have beg differ this point the batch file use launch cview the dir where cview resides and then invokes every time crash cview the byte temp file found the root dir the drive cview posted this well before the cview expert apparently thought knew better matthew zenkar moscom com are talking about colorview for dos here have version and writes the temp files its own current directory what later versions admit that don know assuming your expert referenced above talking about the version that have then say correct the colorview for unix what being discussed just mixed confused befuddled but genuinely and entirely curious uncle fester what god wants god wants gigolos god gets god wants giraffes god help all god wants politics thester nyx edu god wants good laugh
comp.graphics	photoshop for windows looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows good how does compare the mac version there lot bugs heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot
comp.graphics	graphics libraries interested graphics library which will allow our design team write graphics software for unix workstations and portable possible eventually this software will have moved microsoft windows opinion that good api with hooks pex underneath would prove most portable does anyone out there have any experience with figaro form tgs hoops from ithaca software would appreciate any comments claye hart claye hart georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet claye hart gtri gatech edu
comp.graphics	scf files help needed got old demo disk that need view was made using rix softworks the files the two diskette set end with scf the demo was vga resolution colors but don know the spatial resolution first problem when try run the demo the screen has two black bars that cut across horizontally the screen the top third and bottom third the screen the bars are about inch wide other than this the demo the animation part seems running fine second problem can find any graphics program that will open and display these files have couple image conversion programs none mention scf files the system using clone diamond speedstar sony monitor any suggestions thank you castro tlc com
comp.graphics	question video projector setting video aid for computer room for the teacher share his display with the class have seen people using video projector sets and large monitor presentations before told that there are three ways connect video projector composite rgb can anyone explain the difference and their likely costs please reply inetnet mail account well posting bulletin sparc nuc edu also like know there are telnet kermit for windows tim chen
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly well binary and who would forget that its the answer the question life the universe and everything else that quote douglas adams round about way course the question has not yet been discovered mark cartwright snp university texas austin computation center graphics facility markc emx utexas edu markc sirius utexas edu markc hermes chpc utexas edu asel often error never doubt this situation has gravity would like refund please
comp.graphics	looking for wmf converter looking for any leads the source good windows meta file converter interpreter need this for use outside the windows environment sources preferred but not requirement please reply the address below david buchholz internet buck ileaf com product manager uucp uunet leafusa buck interleaf inc voice
comp.graphics	wanted super projector with sounds looking for super projector with sounds anybody out there has one for sale send email with the name brand condition the projector and price for sale kimd rpi edu must have sound capability danny kimd rpi edu
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal yes aware coreldraw exports scodal version did quite well apart from few hassles with radial fills version revb better but you try export scodal with bitmap image included the drawing will say something like cannot export scodal with bitmap least does version anyone out there knows way around this all ears temporal images make product called filmpak which converts autocad plots scodal postscript scodal and now gif scodal but costs and was just wondering there was anything out there that just did the bitmap scodal part tad cheaper jeff lyall inst geo nuc sci ltd lower hutt new zealand
comp.graphics	need specs info apple quicktime add sciences sdsu edu james murray writes need get the specs least very verbose interpretation the specs for quicktime technical articles from magazines and references books would nice too also need the specs format usable unix dos system can much with the quicktime stuff they have ftp apple com its present format apple just released the quicktime volume the new inside macintosh series any bookstore with reasonable technical stock should have bill jones billj beowulf ingr com
comp.graphics	image analysis for looking for image analysis software running dos windows like able analyze tiff similar files generate histograms patterns etc any help would appreciated fourie joubert department biochemistry university pretoria bio navi
comp.graphics	sources for shading wanted article innldi irau ira uka braun irav ira uka thomas braun writes looking for shading methods and algorithms please let know you know where get source codes for that illumination and color computer generated imagery roy hall contains source for several famous illumination models including bouknight phong blinn whitted and hall illumination models you want introduction shading you might look through the book writing raytracer edited glassner also the book procedural elements for computer graphics rogers good reference source for code these book are available the net believe you might check out nic funet some site closer you carrying graphics related stuff hope this what you were asking for torgeir veimo studying the university bergen gona wave freak flag high jimi hendrix and would okay any other day the police
comp.graphics	cview answers cyberspace buddha wixer bga com wrote renew blade stack urc tue rene walter writes over where places its temp files just places them its current directory have beg differ this point the batch file use launch cview the dir where cview resides and then invokes every time crash cview the byte temp file found the root dir the drive cview this what posted that cview uses the root directory the drive cview however since has much trouble reading large files from floppy suspect that uses the root directory the drive the image files are matthew zenkar moscom com
comp.graphics	newsgroup split haven been following this thread appologies this has already been mentioned but how about comp graphics kaveh kardan kardank ere umontreal
comp.graphics	fast wireframe graphics article columbia edu ykim columbia edu yong kim writes working program display wireframe models with the user being able arbitrarily change any the viewing parameters also the wireframe objects are also going have dynamic attributes that they can move around while the user exploring the wireframe world why don you consider phigs pex lib yeh usc
comp.graphics	detecting double points bezier curves article almaden ibm com capelli vnet ibm com ron capelli writes oeinck waterland wlink ferdinand oeinck writes looking for any information detecting and calculating double point and cusp bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose geometric characterization parametric cubic curves acm tog vol july used that reference and found that needed their original tech report maureen stone and tony derose characterizing cubic bezier curves xerox edl december this report can obtained for free from xerox corporation palo alto research center coyote hill road palo alto california the tog paper was good but this tech report had more interesting details john
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance scgu mentor purdue edu nova purdue edu allen writes got the spec obviously since quoted last posting gripe about tiff that far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier write than read why not use the library for reading writing tiff files took good minutes start using them your own app martin martin preston preston manchester computer graphics computer graphics unit manchester computing centre just university manchester load balls manchester phone
comp.graphics	diamond stelth any good the market for bit graphics card for isa bus and was wondering anyone had any comments good bad otherwise regarding the diamond stealth
comp.graphics	trying view pov files edward nobles ednobles sacam oren ortn edu wrote been trying view tga files created povray have the diamond speedstar video board not the far can convert them jpeg using cjpeg and view them with cview but that only displays bit color just want see the darn things real color have ati ultra pro card and have found that the easiest way view true color images using their windows drivers and something like winjpeg photofinish anyone has non windows solution love hear dane
comp.graphics	ati gup and graphics wkshop win have ati graph ultra pro vlb megs and have small question about graphics workshop for windows when exit from says current driver can handle colors when actually color mode this driver problem gws error what using the driver under win correctly states that can display colors when switch bit though another question anybody know any viewers that support this card other than windows viewers any help would appreciated
comp.graphics	photoshop for windows article uhim jfq rot beaver rot andre boivert writes looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows good how does compare the mac version there lot bugs heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot review both the mac and windows versions either week info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david david farley the university chicago library east street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	targa format text file does anyone know how convert targa similar bit picture into list values and then convert back targa after doing operations the ixels codes targa pixel pixel etc one can help with this could someone explain how the bit data ored the targa file and also how its stored the bit targas thanks
comp.graphics	call for presentations navy sciviz seminar call for presentations navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar tuesday june carderock division naval surface warfare center formerly the david taylor research center bethesda maryland sponsor ness navy engineering software system sponsoring one day navy scientific visualization and virtual reality seminar the purpose the seminar present and exchange information for navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality programs research developments and applications presentations presentations are solicited all aspects navy related scientific visualization and virtual reality all current work works progress and proposed work navy organizations will considered four types presentations are available regular presentation minutes length short presentation minutes length video presentation stand alone videotape author need not attend the seminar scientific visualization virtual reality demonstration byoh accepted presentations will not published any proceedings however viewgraphs and other materials will reproduced for seminar attendees abstracts authors should submit one page abstract and videotape robert lipman naval surface warfare center carderock division code bethesda maryland voice fax mail lipman oasys navy mil authors should include the type presentation their affiliations addresses telephone and fax numbers and addresses multi author papers should designate one point contact deadlines the abstact submission deadline april notification acceptance will sent may materials for reproduction must received june for further information contact robert lipman the above address please distribute widely possible thanks robert lipman internet lipman oasys navy mil david taylor model basin cdnswc lip ocean navy mil computational signatures and voicenet structures group code factsnet bethesda maryland phishnet stockings long legs the sixth sick shiek sixth sheep sick
comp.graphics	newsgroup split concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious disagree you could learn the same amount reading all the split groups and would make things easier for those who are less omnivorous there waste creating news groups its just bit shuffling about have problem with only few posts per week per group spend too much time this david
comp.graphics	jpeg file format where could find description the jpg file format specifically need know where jpg file can find the height and width the image and perhaps even the number colors being used any suggestions peter uucp peterbak microsoft this all that there compuserve nothing more ger
comp.graphics	please recommend graphics library for mac article john shepardson esh moose slac stanford edu john shepardson esh qmail slac stanford edu john shepardson writes can you please offer some recommendations graphics there has been fantastic programmers package for some years that has been little advertised and apparently nobody knows about called graphic tools written mark owen micro system options seattle reviewed year ago and was really awed capabilities also includes tons code for many aspects mac programming including offscreen graphics does zbuffering bit graphics has database for representing graphical objects and more very well written mpw think and hypercard and the code highly reusable last time checked the price was around well worth their talked with mark and faxed some literature though wasn very helpful just list routine names bsplinesurface drawstring names there was product info sheet that explained some the package capabilities also found review april may mactutor does look like good package the current price
comp.graphics	looking for radon does anyone have radon transform that they could send any help accepted for lot music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file dev audio library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when doubt ask xarchie xgopher xwais
comp.graphics	ray tracer for dos article cqiinnje srvr engin umich edu tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes sorry for the repeat this request but does anyone know good free shareware program with which can create ray traces and save them bit mapped files course there such thing thanks advance daemon there are books published books that come with source code floppies they are programming dimensions graphics ray traycing and animation christopher watkins and larry sharp photorealism and ray tracing christopher watkins stephen coy and mark finlay have the first book and great intro ray tracing and animation most the programs are the disk compiled and ready run have only glanced the second book but also appears good hope this helps mark larsen markl hunan rastek com this unit has bad motivator luke star wars
comp.graphics	color pict spinning earth estop conrad appstate edu acs writes sorry this the wrong place post this was crusing the net earlier this year and came upon something called color pict spinning earth assuming animation sequence the earth rotation revolution always get those mixed the time found sysem would not even support color graphics didn bother get the pict now have fairly nice system and cant find the pict again anyone can help please post here mail thanks advance eric estop conrad appstate edu likewise for please first time hear but beem looking for something like this for the past few months patrick hew year science engineering university western australia phew tartarus uwa edu phew mackerel uwa edu
comp.graphics	cornerstone dualpage driver wanted looking for window driver for cornerstone dualpage cornerstone technology inc video card does anybody know that has these there one thanks for any info nis nis kelder estonian biocentre tkelder kask ebc
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article fox apr graphics nyu edu fox graphics nyu edu david fox writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious disagree you could learn the same amount reading all the split groups and would make things easier for those who are less omnivorous there waste creating news groups its just bit shuffling about have problem with only few posts per week per group spend too much time this yes but shouldn size newsgroup issue sorry this has been covered before but comp grahpics animation get how much traffic per day articles maybe extremely heavy day been following this group for about four months now and don recall ever seeing such flood posts that split would warranted just cents mitch jmcocker eos ncsu edu who doth render with knoweth frustration
comp.graphics	scf files help needed tlc com writes second problem can find any graphics program that will open and display these files have couple image conversion programs none mention scf files rix files with the extension sci and scf are just raw file with color palette the first bytes kind header with the name rix among bytes unknown stuff the you have bytes palette info for the colors rgb and then you have the picture raw format you dont know how make viewer this description you can get vpic able read the files regards thomas
comp.graphics	conversion pic format files hpgl files hello can anybody help with the conversion pic format files hpgl files the question follows possible convert files that have been generated the pic preprocessor format into hpgl format suitable for sending plotter the hardware involved ibm risc running aix how should this done and what software involved where available what does cost what are the problems regards dani cimad consultants antwerp belgium dani cimad
comp.graphics	hijaak have heard some impressive things about hijakk for windows currently use shareware program called graphics workshop what kinds things will hijaak that these shareware programs will not what has been your experience with hijaak are there other programs that are better please email you can help wayne haston haston utkvx utk edu thanks
comp.graphics	graphics libraries does anyone out there have any experience with figaro form tgs hoops from ithaca software would appreciate any comments yes couple years ago did comparison the two products some this may have changed but here goes far phigs implementation figaro fine but its phigs personally hate phigs because find too low level also dislike structure editing which find impossible but enough about phigs have found hoops system that full featured and easy use they support all their rendering methods software when there hardware support their documentation good and they are easily portable other systems would happy elaborate further you have more specific questions here lookin bill wlm wisdom attmail com phone
comp.graphics	canon copier printer postscript questions printer model and specification canon clc color laser copier ipu unit postscript intelligent processing unit hello have recently purchased very expensive and nice color copier printer want able print from our sgi iris network the copier printer has both parallel and scsi interface have configured the printer with the system using the parallel interface and can print postscript files the printer can also print rgb files but these are turn converted postscript internal filter the canon clc publication quality printer but the quality our postscript printouts are less than acceptable create the postscript files with variaty programs such showcase and tops when convert postscript with tops and use the option specify the halftone screen density rather than the default the output better but still much less that acceptable note that are starting with screen image rgb image format and translating the image into postscript suspect that could use the scsi interface would get higher quality pictures have not purchased the software that drives the printer from the scsi port knowledge this software and does not come with warranty the management here does not want spend this much money without some assurance that the product will work here questions anybody the net uses this printer are you using the scsi parallel port what the quality the printouts there way create high quality postscript printouts what the limiting component the postscript language the postscript interpretor the printer the big question where can get some software drive the scsi port for this printer please email directly don not read news regular basis will post summary thanks advance mail scott ncifcrf gov phone title systems manager analyst
comp.graphics	ray tracing pictures for those who are interested ray traced pictures there nice example alt binaries pictures misc the file called poolball gif shows pooltable with yes poolballs resolution colours only the tga bit version also available but bit big post the picture created with pov ray enjoy gerco cgschot ruu gerco schot cgschot ruu
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance ulrich galki toppoint wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from forty two six times nine
comp.graphics	display software have the need for displaying surfaces under using only xlib and does anyone know package available internet which will able the work looking for stand alone package providing similar functions xprism available with khoros but without the numerous libraries required for want able recompile and run various platforms from sgis unix any help will appreciated demetrios sapounas tel nswc fax dahlgren usa email aris nswc navy mil
comp.graphics	looking for wmf converter buck ileaf com david buchholz writes looking for any leads the source good windows meta file converter interpreter need this for use outside the windows environment sources preferred but not requirement please reply the address below related topic have been searching with success for specification the enhanced metafile format have the original wmf format graphics file formats levine but info the bit version any pointers eric sink spyglass all the earth only humans have the ability woodfield drive content bad situations savoy and vice versa sink uiuc edu
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly mark cartwright markc emx utexas edu wrote well binary and who would forget that its the answer the question life the universe and everything else that quote douglas adams round about way course the question has not yet been discovered but was discovered sort the question was what times when arthur dent objected that this was unfortunately factually inaccurate the effort discover the question was begun all over this last effort was believe likely take far longer than the lifespan the universe fact several lifespans same mark wilson online computer systems try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with signature mean
comp.graphics	wanted matrox driver need windows driver for the matrox svga card the moment windows runs only the mode you have driver for this card please send with the oemsetup inf bockamp informatik muenchen thanks florian bockamp bockamp informatik muenchen ooo ooo not bug undocumented feature
comp.graphics	fixed point math library has anyone written seen library class for fixed point math good articles about same pretty much know how this but have few other wheels invent the moment thanks how typing call jack robotics jpl nasa gov jack morrison jet propulsion lab oak grove pasadena
comp.graphics	needed algorithms for object recognition have friend who working and object recognition looking for references describing algorithms the following subject areas thresholding edge segmentation marr hildreth sobel operator chain codes thinning skeletonising anybody willing post algorithm that they have implemented which demonstrates any the above topics would much appreciated please post all replies mail address requested will post summary the newsgroup couple weeks thanks advance for all replies james city
comp.graphics	hijaak haston donald wayne haston utkvx utk edu wrote currently use shareware program called graphics workshop what kinds things will hijaak that these shareware programs will not also use graphic workshop and the only differences that know are that hijaak has screen capture capabilities and acn convert from couple more file formats don know specifically which one the april issue magazine they test the twelve best selling image capture convert utilities including hijaak tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms hello have been searching for quality image enhancement and manipulation package for unix motif platforms that comparable adobe photo shop for the mac have not been able find any and would appreciate any information about such products you could provide would particularly interested software that runs sun workstations and does not require special add hardware but would also interested other solutions thank you wayne wayne michael wdm world std com
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance article prestonm man prestonm man martin preston writes why not use the library for reading writing tiff files took good minutes start using them your own app certainly use whenever have tiff and usually works very well that not point philosophically opposed because its complexity this complexity has led some programs poor tiff writers making some very bizarre files other programs inability load tiff images though they save them course and general inability interchange images between different environments despite the fact they all think they understand tiff the saying goes not worried about all the other assholes out there had big trouble with misuse and abuse tiff over the years and chalk all the immense and unnecessary complexity the format the words the tiff spec appendix page capitalized emphasis mine the only problem with this sort success that tiff was designed powerful and flexible the expense simplicity takes fair amount effort handle all the options currently defined this specification probably application does complete job and that currently the only way you can sure that you will able import any tiff image since there are many image generating applications out there now program worse all applications can read every tiff image that means there are some won some that might have deal with why would want images trapped that format don and neither should anyone who agrees with reasoning not that anyone does course
comp.graphics	marching cubs hello hello was wondering anyone knew mac implementation the marching cubes algorithm that will output the individual faces there such application might there some source code that could modify implement the algorithm and get the individual faces thanks advance sincerly tracy tracy abildskov phone fax address brigham young university department psychology mail abild bert byu edu provo usa
comp.graphics	epson hpgl pen plotter pens greetings have epson pen plotter forsale emulates not sure which has option board that does the emulation has serial interface with hardware handshake also have pens for follows packs black oil based packs red green blue and black pens packs aqueous black packs aqueous blue black pack aqueous multi color pens and assorted non packaged pens mostly colored the plotter used have tested using the windows drivers for and and both worked fine accepts either sized paper figure that the plotter worth about and the pens are worth least another more one thing certain you won need purchase any pens for quite while all the packaged pens were sealed they are all still fresh the rest were capped and seem function well willing sell the pens seperate anyone interested just them selling because got laserjet and don need color like best offer chert chert pellett chert dungeon cirr com chert dungeon lonestar org panic the cat nibbling the power cord
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly mark wilson mark ocsmd ocs com wrote mark cartwright markc emx utexas edu wrote binary and who would forget that its the answer the question life the universe and everything else course the question has not yet been discovered but was discovered sort the question was what times read and there special prize the bottom amaze your friends and gain respect from your peers that you can carry long about the number the original question was what the meaning life the universe and and everything the answer generated deep thought the largest computer ever created was deep thought realized that understand the answer one must really know what the question unfortunately didn but was able help build the largest computer named earth which could figure out the real question know this background knowledge for everyone here just bear with sec when arthur pulled the scrabble tiles out the bag spelled out what nine times six the like however not clear that the monkey man had the right question his brain especially since was that lady the diner which was vaporized moments later that came with the answer how everyone could get along the other hand marvin said saw the answer dent brain lets presume correct well nine times six forty two base chew that for awhile chris russell custom software networks case tools and consulting adaptive solutions sun sparc sgi iris apollo macintosh internet crussell netcom com gte mail box diamond bar
comp.graphics	sphere from points there another useful method based least sqyares estimation the sphere equation parameters the points spherical surface with radius and center can written this equation can rewritten into the following form approximate the left hand part for all datapoints determine the parameters which minimise the average error numerical recipes can found algorithms solve these parameters the best fitting sphere will have center radius sqrt last will this solve you sphere estination problem least for the most situations think quick van rijt rytg fel tno
comp.graphics	polygon fill routine needed looking for polygon fill routine fill simple sided polygons can some one who has this routine help saving reinventing time thanx advance rao
comp.graphics	disney animation can anyone tell anything about the disney animation software package note the followup line this not for but for colleague
comp.graphics	rumours about read issue wired magazine has long article the hype noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great but never show any pictures the output least pictures that one can understand kirk membry our age the age industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.graphics	studio any differences with previous version fombaron marc fombaron ufrima imag wrote are there significant differences between and thank you for helping recall the only differences are the set parameters some the defaults have changed slightly look when get home and let you know but there isn enough actually warrant upgrading douginoz
comp.graphics	cview answers ray knight rknight stiatl salestech com wrote mik uky edu bryan williams writes majority users not readding from floppy well how about those who have picture roms and would like use cview because fast and works well but can because the moron lacked the foresight create the temp file the program path not the current didrectory actually the most flexible way create temp files check for temp tmp environment variable and create the files the drive and directory pointedto the variable this pretty much standard for dos windows and applications unfortunately cview does not pay attention the temp environment variable matthew zenkar moscom com
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance martin preston prestonm man wrote scgu mentor purdue edu nova purdue edu allen writes got the spec obviously since quoted last posting gripe about tiff that far too complicated and nearly infinitely easier write than read why not use the library for reading writing tiff files took good minutes start using them your own app martin what the name this library for tiff like get copy but can archie for something don have the filename for thanks
comp.graphics	need info mail file format need the file format for mail file formats seems pcx based but with twist only the first page multi page fax will come out readable the other pages disappear the format seems proprietary anybody got any clues have give email faxes secretary order get unscrambled want filter from mail come think mail would nice too tonyo master cna tek com
comp.graphics	medical images via gopher few days back someone posted info gopher site where you could search for medical graphics etc could someone please repost mail copy greatly appreciate thanks mark mark morley unix sun manager net morley camosun camosun college interurban campus tel interurban road room tech fax victoria canada
comp.graphics	morphing keywords looking for some morphing programs for dec looked for program called dmorph using archie but could not find found progrmam call morpho but only did grayscale images does anyone know where should look
comp.graphics	graphics driver standards have researcher who collecting electical impulses from the human heart through complex analog digital system has designed and inputting this information into his eisa bus vectra computer running dos and the phar lap dos extender want purchase very high performance video card for modeling aware company called matrox but concerned about getting married company and their video routine library would hope some more flexibility choose between several card manufacturers with standard video driver would like write more generic code code that could easily moved other cards computer operating systems the future there any hope any information would greatly appreciated please possible respond directly internet mail raymaker bcm tmc edu thanks
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance silly article geraldo utexas edu mark cartwright markc emx utexas edu writes well binary and who would forget that its the answer the question life the universe and everything else that quote douglas adams round about way course the question has not yet been discovered but the question was later revealed what the base system course chuck divine
comp.graphics	animation station looking for some information about animation stations that are currently the market the price the station can from but more than type workstation doesnt matter mac sgi etc you use have bought looked one can suggest your dream machine then please mail your configurations need the following type station mac etc expandibilty the machine software that can run vtr controller and vtr deck model name vendors names and numbers thanks advance ken eyler eylerken washington edu the evergreen state college
comp.graphics	xlib and bit displays info needed name rahul and doing usu logan query have workstation series with running have true color bit color monitor connected this machine normally have the capability display colors from max million since the monitor true color can see million time que have facility function call that will enable specify any rgb combination and see screen using xstorecolor set the pallette max colors que not there any way can display true color image true color monitor using xlib function calls are generating ray traced images and colors are indeed painful limit besides need the facility display the true color images will generating true color system without color quantification please anyone can help obliged rahul usu edu
comp.graphics	tiff anything are there any tiff anything programs out there for the ibm our scanner works into tiff and can view cshow but all other programs read errors are there any basic tiff jpeg gif pcx bmp etc thanks for the time email post acceptable joshuaf that geiger scan looks like dookie know tiff
comp.graphics	imagine for impulse shipping imagine for the how close the amiga imagine terms features roland chia air cooled email kruzifix netcom com free falling voice carbon unit
comp.graphics	screen capture cymk converter have small program extract image from vga color screen and store that image tiff file need insert the image into sales brochure which then need printed color mac would use photoshop separate the image into eps files and then pull into quark express then get printed film lintronix service bureau however don have mac but have windows what would need this type operation the windows environment are there any separation programs available the net there good page layout program that should look into thanks advance shmuel einstein shmuel einstein com shmuel einstein associates inc wilshire blvd suite beverly hills fax
comp.graphics	for dos there precompiled version for dos out there prefereably for
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap article apr mfltd sts mfltd steve sherwood writes has anyone got multiverse work have built svr mips svr and sun sparcstation there seems many bugs the dogfight and dactyl simply nothing after fixing bug where variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah have name west street living blaze obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive the day berkshire england bort etry nfluence with large hammer built only motif machine works fine added some objects into dogfight could get used flying this was very easy all all cool brian
comp.graphics	animation studio file format the file format for autodesk animation studio available thanks gary please respond email have hell time keeping with news
comp.graphics	ray tracer for dos article cqiinnje srvr engin umich edu tdawson llullaillaco engin umich edu chris herringshaw wrote sorry for the repeat this request but does anyone know good free shareware program with which can create ray traces and save them bit mapped files course there such thing thanks advance daemon ppppp ooooo persistance vision raytracer ppppp ooooo available archie and wuarchive graphics type directories freeware kai howells kai postoffice utas edu mortimer ave new town tas within australia elsewhere
comp.graphics	sigkids research showcase call sigkids call for participation sigkids research showcase where learning hip pushing the edge education computer graphics and new technologies the sigkids research showcase will provide siggraph attendees with the latest applying computer technology form state the art educational experiences hop submit any works which converge the disciplines education and computer technology possible categories and domains include but are not limited interactive stand alone applications self run demonstrations and tutorials museum installations groupware collaborative systems hypermedia virtual reality scientific visualization interactive art microworlds deadlines may submissions due submit diane schwartz siggraph sigkids committee the institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois fax schwartz ils nwu edu electronic submission form schwartz ils nwu edu how submit fill out the permission use form see page the siggraph call for participation send email schwartz ils nwu edu have one faxed you fill out the sigkids research showcase submission form below send abstract description the submission approximately words one the following ways send hard copies diane schwartz via surface mail the above address fax copy diane schwartz email copy diane schwartz schwartz ils nwu edu necessary explain the project additional support material such videotapes and slides that will assist the selection committee reaching decision are highly reccommended fax and email submissions are acceptable please send all your submission material the same form either surface mail email fax the only exception this should the additional support material which should only sent via surface mail note due our very limited budget the submitter chooses have dedicated machine for their work they will have pay rental fees for the hardware personally note contributors outside for the united states should aware customs and carrier delays and send submissions early cut here acm siggraph sigkids research showcase entry form copy this form must accompany each proposal you submit send sigkids research showcase entries diane schwartz siggraph sigkids committee the institute for the learning sciences maple avenue suite evanston illinois fax schwartz ils nwu edu please print legibly contact information name company address city state postal code country daytime phone evening phone fax email additional information title theme piece participant name collaborator name hardware platform and periferals what needed supplied participant yes dedicated machine yes note due our very limited budget the participant must pay the rental fees for any dedicated hardware need assistance specify software statement please tell the significance the work less than words medium other describe virtual reality virtual sculpture interactive multimedia installation etc special requirements physical description power dimensions other authorization permission use visual and audio the event that materials used acm siggraph sigkids research showcase entry contain the work other individuals organizations including any copyrighted musical compositions excerpts thereof understand that responsibility secure any necessary permissions and liscenses yes piece contains images audio video components yes yes have the necessary rights and permissions use the images audio video components piece conference presentation release signing this form grant siggraph permission consider piece for the sigkids research showcase maintain the copyright work and will receive full credit wherever this work used conference promotional material grant acm siggraph the right use slides for conference and organization publicity both now and the future this includes usage posters brochures catalogs promotional items media broadcast exchange siggraph provides full author artist credit information all promotional material yes grant acm siggraph permission use slides work for conference and organization publicity signature date acm siggraph makes every attempt respect and protect intellectual property rights people and organizations preparing material for siggraph conferences this entry form explains the uses siggraph will make the material and requires you acknowledge that you have permission use this material this may involve seeking clearance from your employer from others who have loaned you material such videotapes and slides this form helps prevent situations whereby siggraph presentations include material without permission that might lead complaints even legal action this form also asks you grant siggraph the right distribute your work while you maintain the copyright slide sets and catalogs are publications for which you grant siggraph nonexclusive worldwide distribution rights siggraph marks each item these publications with proper copyright notice which informs viewers that these items may not copied reproduced broadcast used for commercial purposes without the explicit permission the indivicual copyright owners addition this form asks acm siggraph may use the your materials for conference and organizational promotional material exchange for full author artist credit information
comp.graphics	wanted playmation info folks does anyone have copy playmation they willing sell love try out but not for the retail you have moved onto something bigger better imagine love buy your table scraps noone selling can anyone recommend place buy playmation mail order for cheap thanks advance mark mark marino omar osf org uunet osf omar open software foundation cambridge center cambridge
comp.graphics	marching cubs saw this subject and all could think was parade wrigley field chicago maybe just marc cooper graphics programmer sverdrup tech child was fsmarc lerc nasa gov imaginary playmate nasa lewis research center brookpark tom robbins cleveland even cowgirls get the blues disclaimer mine all mine duck
comp.graphics	pov file constructor for unix just getting into povray and was wondering there graphic package that outputs pov files any help would appreciated thanks later ish craig didn nobody saw you can prove anything ccc ccc chumphre comp vuw
comp.graphics	more radiosity amann iam unibe stephan amann writes article yuma acns colostate edu longs lance colostate edu xia zhao writes article apr aragorn unibe you write let serious working radiosity package written would like make public domain announce the minute finished that were the good news the bad news take another months least finish please note that there are some radiosity packages resource listing under the subject ftp list greetings nick nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax usenet editor comp graphics resource listing and soc culture greece faq ntua acm student chapter chair organizing small conference comp graphics call you interested participate nick nikolaos fotis national technical univ athens greece home esperidon internet nfotis theseas ntua halandri uucp mcsun ariadne theseas nfotis athens greece fax
comp.graphics	finding equally spaced points sphere hello know that this has been discussed before but the time didn need teselate sphere any kind soul has the code the alg that was finally decided upon the best recall was nice iterative subdivision meathod would very appreciative thomas deweese deweeset rdrc rpi edu
comp.graphics	grayscale printer have you considered the apple laserwriter iig use for all our image printing
comp.graphics	help advice what video system buy this question covered elsewhere apologize but need information fast department has been given large sum money install video system our network ibm workstations this not area which have any expertise wonder anyone out there can offer advice would like system based either vhs video which will allow one write video frame frame tape for play back real time for visualization physics problems can anyone tell what hardware available which would work for our system some support software obviously needed too but nothing particularly sophisticated since the software actually use for the visualization all already written please email with replies don read this group many thanks for your help newman department physics cornell university newmme helios cornell edu
comp.graphics	tiff anything there program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file the msdos graphics directory and called grfwk zip this program should everthing you need tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	sun ipx root window display background picture article apr osi com scott osi com scott fleming writes hello netters have fairly weak question ask everybody netland looked though the last faq for comp graphics but didn find answer thus the post keep short question how display any raster files gif files iff tiff images that have root window background have sun ipc openwindows sun that helps any compiled pov for the sun and would like display some the work have done background tile thanks for any help information that you provide have good day scott fleming osi kudo the people who provided pov its great scott not sure this helpful but usually use use sun ipcs and ipxs and works fine can display good number ways root being one them also possible have put background automatically login hope this helps jason weiler weilej rpi edu btw anonymous ftp somewhere archie fer
comp.graphics	detecting double points bezier curves renner adobe com john renner writes article almaden ibm com capelli vnet ibm com ron oeinck waterland wlink ferdinand oeinck writes looking for any information detecting and calculating double point and cusp bezier curve see maureen stone and tony derose geometric characterization parametric cubic curves acm tog vol july used that reference and found that needed their original tech report maureen stone and tony derose characterizing cubic bezier curves xerox edl december first thanks all who replied original question implemented the ideas from the article above and very satisfied with the results needed for bezier curve approximation routine some cases generating offset curves loops can occur now have fast method detecting the generation curve with loop although did not follow the article above strictly the check the fourth control point lies the the loop area which bounded two parabolas and one ellips too complicated instead enlarged the loop area and surrounded for straight lines the check now simple and fast and approximation routine never ever outputs self intersecting bezier curves again ferdinand
comp.graphics	dregistere for dos pascal perret article apr eicn etna wrote site omnigate clarkson edu aliases grape ecs clarkson edu number pub msdos djgpp pub zip think certainly you read the other answer from kevin martin write about what could someone answer funny thing the internet have idea what might except that might something with windows pcs you know and have used and think that good email ryanph mrl dsto gov common abbreviation for quarterdeck corporation desqview software have not used yet but reading the blurbs that quarterdeck sent sounds pretty great allows multiple dos machines the way that does but without requiring ram get going pre emptive multi tasking network computing proper windows client server application this means that dos program can used other windows computers your network and that windows programs can used your computer although not version unix effectively has many unix features and mostly you will able compile unix type programs using the djgpp gnu compilers they advertise regularly all the major computing and programming magazines they also have internet support online support qdeck com pascal perret perret eicn etna hope that this helps anyone wanting know phil ryan melbourne australia
comp.graphics	looking for tseng vesa drivers this first msg the net actually the copy dam look for the new vpic comes with updated vesa drivers for almost every known card the vesa level and tseng bit has nice affair with the driver hope useful bye
comp.graphics	need make vga shades have routine that changes the color rgb attributes vga adapter but doesn work the mode that need specifically hex obscure mode course but need change the zillions colors shade greyscale but not have the correct memory address for the pointer need please someone need the starting address maybe somewhere can find thank you john kondis eapu orion oac uci edu
comp.graphics	photoshop for windows article apr midway uchicago edu dgf quads uchicago edu david farley writes article uhim jfq rot beaver rot andre boivert writes looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows good how does compare the mac version there lot bugs heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot review both the mac and windows versions either week info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david don know about that used photoshop both and quadra say they are roughly equal anything the was faster both systems were running bit color and had the same amount ram megs also believe the quadra had one those photoshop accelerators
comp.graphics	studio any differences with previous version article apr hparc aus com doug hparc aus com doug parsons writes fombaron marc fombaron ufrima imag wrote are there significant differences between and thank you for helping recall the only differences are the set parameters some the defaults have changed slightly look when get home and let you know but there isn enough actually warrant upgrading douginoz wrong the major improvements for and are the use ipas routines for studio they have increased speed anywhere from depending which ones you use all the yost group ipas routines that you can buy separate from the studio package require the use they are too slow with
comp.graphics	true color display pov hallo pov renderers got bocax card now try get pov displaying true colors while rendering tried most the options and univesa driver but what happens isn correct can anybody help
comp.graphics	fractal compression can anybody give book reference title give start fractal image compression technique helps will appreciated thanx inu lindblat monash edu inu aurora monash edu
comp.graphics	developable surface netters currently doing some investigations developable surface can anyone familiar with this topic give some information sources which can allow find some infomation developable surface thanks for your help abel hkuxa hku
comp.graphics	virtual reality for the cheap article plk mil ridout bink plk mil brian ridout writes article apr mfltd sts mfltd steve sherwood writes has anyone got multiverse work have built svr mips svr and sun sparcstation there seems many bugs the dogfight and dactyl simply nothing after fixing bug where variable defined twice two different modules one needed setting static else the client core dumped steve extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah have name west street living blaze obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive the day berkshire england bort etry nfluence with large hammer built only motif machine works fine added some objects into dogfight could get used flying this was very easy all all cool brian the compiler forgiving think that you mixed cobol pascal the compiler still wouldn complain steve extn sts mfltd uunet mfocus sts micro focus just like pariah have name west street living blaze obscurity rum ruff splat newbury need courage survive the day berkshire england bort etry nfluence with large hammer
comp.graphics	alias phone number wanted what the phone number for alias toll free number preferred available thanks charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	postscript drawing prog article apr informatik muenchen comp graphics gnuplot comp graphics rdd uts ipp garching mpg reinhard drube writes article ecnn mentor purdue edu nish chem purdue edu nishantha writes could somebody let know drawing utility that can used manipulate postscript files specifically interested drawing lines boxes and the sort postscript contour plots have tried xfig and impressed features however use since cannot use postscript files input for the programme there utility that converts postscript xfig format any help would greatly appreciated nishantha have you checked out adobe illustrator there are few unix versions for available depending your platform know two unix versions one for mach next and for irix sgi there may others such for sun sparcstation but don know for sure ttyl charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly been trying figure out way get adobe illustrator auto trace exactly what see screen but misses the edges templates many pixels more resulting images that are useless need exact tracing not approximate tried adjusting the freehand tolerances well autotrace tolerances but doesn help any suggestions charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	marchin cubes there there anybody who know polygon reduction algorithm for marching cube surfaces the algirithm schroeder siggraph for any hints hugs and kisses erwin ooo ooo erwin keeve adress peter welter platz cologne germany dept computergraphics phone computeranimation fax academy media arts cologne email keeve khm uni koeln
comp.graphics	disp have posted disp zip alt binaries pictures utilities you may distribute this program freely for non commercial use fee gained there warranty the author not responsible for any damage caused this program important changes since version fix bugs file management system file displaying improve file management system more user friendly fix bug xpm version reading fix bugs targa reading writng fix bug gem img reading add support for pcx and gem img writing auto skip macbinary header introduction this program can let you read write and display images with different formats also let you some special effects rotation dithering image its main purpose let you convert image among different formts include simple file management system support slide show there limit image size currently this program supports bits display you want use hicolor truecolor you must have vesa driver you want modify video driver please read section hardware requirement better msdos higher min amount ram bytes maybe less memory will also work recommend min bytes for better performance hard disk for swapping virtual memory the following description borrowed from djgpp supported wares extended memory expanded under vcpi disk space used for swapping supervga color mode xms vdisk memory allocation strategies vcpi programs such qemm desqview and max unsupported dpmi microsoft windows features emulator bit unix ish environment flat memory model svga graphics installation video drivers emu and exe are borrowed from djgpp you use western digital vga chips read readme this exe modified version for vesa and completely compatible with original version but some people report that this exe not compatible with other djgpp programs their system you encounter this problem don put exe within search path please read runme bat for how run this program you choose xxxxx grn video driver add environment for example driver xxxxx xxxxx grn you don have add emu xxxxx emu environment for example driver xxxxx xxxxx grd emu xxxxx emu notes only test grn grn and vesa grn other drivers are not tested have modified grn support bits display you don need use vesa driver grn doesn work please try vesa grn for those who want use hicolor truecolor display please use vesa grn except users you can find vesa bios driver from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos graphics godzilla cgl rmit kjb mgl command line switch usage display display initial display type sort sort method display type svga default hicolor truecolor sort method name ext function key change disk drive ctrl ctrl change disk drive change filename mask see match doc change parameters some effects picture flip rotate make directory tag file tag group files see match doc tag all files untag file untag group files see match doc untag all files ins change display type read screen menu move file delete file rename file copy file display first bytes ascii hex and dec modes display disk free space page down move one page tab change processing target arrow keys home end page page down scroll image home left most end right most page top most page down bottom most screen effect menu left right arrow change display type bits slide show escape terminate alt quit program without prompting alt reread directory escape abort function and return support format read gif gif japan mag mag japan pic pic sun raster ras jpeg jpg xbm xbm utah rle rle pbm pbm pgm pgm ppm ppm pcx pcx japan mki mki tiff tif targa tga xpm xpm mac paint mac gem img img iff ilbm lbm window bmp bmp qrt ray tracing qrt mac pict pct vis vis pds pds viking vik vicar vic fits fit usenix face fac the extensions are standard extensions write gif sun raster jpeg xbm pbm pgm ppm tiff targa xpm mac paint ascii laser jet iff ilbm window bmp mac pict vis fits face pcx gem img all read write support full color bits grey scale dither and bits image allowed for that format detail initialization set default display type highest display type find allowable screen resolution for grn video driver only when you run this program you will enter read menu whthin this menu you can press any function key except you move copy files you will enter write menu the write menu much like read menu but only allow you change directory the header line read menu includes display type number files number tagged files pressing space read menu will let you select which format use for reading current file pressing return read menu will let you reading current file this program will automatically determine which format this file the procedure first check magic number fail check standard extension still fail report error pressing read menu will slide show delay time program will wait until you hit key except escape any error occurs program will make beep escape terminate pressing ins read menu will change display type pressing alt read menu will quit program without prompting once image file successfully read you will enter screen menu within this menu turn you can special effect image pressing return show image graphic mode press return space escape return text mode pressing tab change processing target this program allows you special effects bit bit image pressing left right arrow change display type bits pressing space save current image file dither save black white image bit grey scale save grey image bits full color save color image bits true color save bit image this program will ask you some questions you want write image file some questions are format dependent finally this program will prompt you filename you want save file under another directory other than current directory please press space after pressing space you will enter write menu you can change directory what you want then pressing space this program will prompt you original filename pressing return this program will prompt you selected filename filename under bar this program supports bits display this program memory greedy you don have enough memory the performance poor you want save bits image try gif then tiff lzw then targa then sun raster then bmp then you want save bits image lossless try tiff lzw targa ilbm sun raster one better for true bits image recommend jpeg for storing bits images even bits images not all subroutines are fully tested this document not well written you have any problem suggestion comment about this program please send bicmos nctu edu need your suggestion improve this program there anonymous ftp this site tech information program user interface and some subroutines written jih shin some subroutines are borrowed from and pbmplus dec tiff and jpeg reading writing are through public domain libraries compiled with djgpp you can get whole djgpp package from simtel mirror sites for example wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos djgpp for thoese who want modify video driver get grx source code from simtel mirror sites for hicolor and truecolor bits colors set bits colors set bits colors set acknowledgment would like thank the authors and pbmplus for their permission let use their subroutines also will thank the authors who write tiff and jpeg libraries thank without djgpp can any thing jih shin bicmos nctu edu
comp.graphics	pov file constructor for unix article csc james comp vuw craig humphrey comp vuw chumphre writes just getting into povray and was wondering there graphic package that outputs pov files any help would appreciated thanks very good modeling package found irit look for irit tar however there converter from format pov format postet request for such converter this group but got response considering write such program myself sebastian schmidt ilmenau institut praktische informatik
comp.graphics	which video card please help got computer which under warranty and trident video card starting play surprise surprise therefore going try exchange for better card the big question which video card high quality and with acceptable price tag student budget thank you advance
comp.graphics	fast polygon routine needed for some reason never saw the original post this thread but you are looking for fast polygon routines vga you really can past the mode stuff from dobbs this code all domain far know and the original articles the routines were all presented dumb vga routines and then optimised modex with some interesting discussion along the way you are interested could find out more details the issues question have them home bernard
comp.graphics	postscript drawing prog vma diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes article apr informatik muenchen comp graphics gnuplot comp graphics rdd uts ipp garching mpg reinhard drube writes article ecnn mentor purdue edu nish chem purdue edu nishantha writes could somebody let know drawing utility that can used manipulate postscript files specifically interested drawing lines boxes and the sort postscript contour plots have tried xfig and impressed features however use since cannot use postscript files input for the programme there utility that converts postscript xfig format any help would greatly appreciated nishantha have you checked out adobe illustrator there are few unix versions for available depending your platform know two unix versions one for mach next and for irix sgi there may others such for sun sparcstation but don know for sure you can include postscript epsi files xfig encapsulated postscript info files you can actually edit the postscript file but you able draw over the postscript file there eps epsi converter eps epsi perl program succes ger timmens ger ruu dcv research group utrecht the netherlands tel room fax unquestionably there progress the average american now pays out twice much taxes formerly got wages mencken
comp.graphics	any good morphing anims has anyone created any interesting animations using dmorph seem unable create anything that looks remotely realistic although this probably due the crappy gif using one captain kirk and one spock bit trekker what are the best type pictures use thanks situnayake
comp.graphics	dtp please ineed information about desk top publishe post graduate courses and possible email address normal mail thanks advance
comp.graphics	diamond stelth any good bought the diamond stealth few months ago seems great card especially with multimedia presentations runs graphics and animation well some near full motion video very well the only thing can tell that lacks speed above colors its qualit between and million collors unreal but you definitly compromise speed seems great card for graphics and comes with some great software but not sure about the excelerator part used own paridise and doesnt seem much faster than that one thing like that loads its own vesa driver from rom startup think because have never had load for links any other programs that require special vesa drivers startup gromi hintmatt isu edu
comp.graphics	gif aerial maps there ftp site for maps the preferably aerial photographs thanks
comp.graphics	hidden line removal program posting this for friend have immediate need for polygon based hidden line removal program can deal with any input output format but need able perspective views any orientation and range there public domain hidden line program around seems like there should but have not been able locate one email replies and will summarize thanks
comp.graphics	sphinx satellite image processing under sphinx sphinx user friendly state the art image processing and analysis package that runs across spectrum high performance computer platforms operating unix and the window system was created meet the daily research needs scientists conducting climate investigations using satellite data and remote sensing techniques intuitive graphic interface sphinx features interactive interface with pop menus and point and click dialog boxes which makes image processing and analysis simple and fast this accessible menuing enables you build attractive image layouts quickly while also providing you the flexibility returning the main menu conduct other image analysis and processing operations image format compatibility using smart read write functions sphinx allows you easily open and save image files variety formats using bit integer real data values sphinx also reads and writes the common tiff and gif formats well compresses and decompresses image formats save disk space image analysis processing for image and pixel analysis the sphinx package includes assortment processing tools that perform useful statistical and mathematical filtering operations such fourier transforms convolution product principal component analyses interactive interpreter for both algebraic equations and images allows the user manipulate and combine individual data channels interactively standard fortran notation used for formula entry and for trig onometric and transcendental functions satellite spectra orbit analysis sphinx possesses functions simulate satellite signal sensitivity for various meteorological satellites goes meteosat noaa spot etc the simulations are conducted for selection standard atmospheric and surface conditions and instrument spectral bands geometry model computes the solar zenith angles warping orbit simulation and image projection easy external program interfacing sphinx allows users the flexibility integrate externally developed software algorithms for processing and converting satellite observations sphinx exports and imports image files and image parameters external programs using special interface functions quick quality presentation sphinx rapidly displays manipulates and enhances high resolution multispectral images and color tables using six bit image planes and one graphics plane the package conveniently combines color images graphics and text generate sharp digital images for articles and reports sphinx and graphics editor provides complete flexibility for modifying and integrating vector graphics and analysis plots with images such histograms and radial graphs the package supplies color and gray scale output for standard inkjet and laser printers other capabilities sphinx also performs image animation external graphics importing mosaic fitting what else software support development sphinx was developed the laboratoire optique atmospherique loa the universite lille france the package has received critical feedback and support from scientists the french national laboratory centre national recherche scientifique cnrs and the french space agency centre national etudes spatiales cnes loa sphinx undergoes continued refinement and development meet changing research needs and advances computer technology the package which features line help supported internet address sphinx loasil citilille through which questions can answered and version updates provided without delay performance tested cnes has selected sphinx analyze and process the satellite data collected during the upcoming adeos polder satellite mission today the sphinx package use the nasa goddard space flight center and widely used many french laboratories including the centre recherche physique environnement ecole normale superieure laboratoire etudes recherches teledetection spatiale laboratoire meteorologie dynamique test version sphinx available loasil citilille anonymous bin sphinx get all sphinx tar the test version the output files are disable however the visualisation and graphic functions are available this sufficient work with you are interested keeping sphinx send your email and you will receive news about the package evolution the software changing with user suggestions will appreciate your comments
comp.graphics	diamond stelth any good the real problem the stealth from what heard that diamond won tell anyone how program their proprietary clock stuff under linux and bsd won run patrick bridges patrick erc msstate edu
comp.graphics	photoshop for windows article agate berkeley edu aron tikal ced berkeley edu aron bonar writes article apr midway uchicago edu dgf quads uchicago edu david farley writes article uhim jfq rot beaver rot andre boivert writes looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows good how does compare the mac version there lot bugs heard the windows version needs fine tuning any comments would greatly appreciated thank you andre boisvert beaver rot review both the mac and windows versions either week info world this week said that the windows version was considerably slower than the mac more useful comparison would have been between photostyler and photoshop for windows david don know about that used photoshop both and quadra say they are roughly equal anything the was faster both systems were running bit color and had the same amount ram megs also believe the quadra had one those photoshop accelerators went back and looked the review again they claim there were significant differences manipulating meg test file but with smaller files the two platforms were the about the same david david farley the university chicago library east street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly article vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes been trying figure out way get adobe illustrator auto trace exactly what see screen but misses the edges templates many pixels more resulting images that are useless need exact tracing not approximate tried adjusting the freehand tolerances well autotrace tolerances but doesn help any suggestions charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress pager what else congress had exactly the same problems aldus freehand think autotracing one those features that barely works but everybody feels compelled throw because the other guys are doing david farley the university chicago library east street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.graphics	rayshade query there very interested rayshade have managed make chessboard for rayshade unfortunately still have the knight horse any ideas also looking for surface for the chesspieces the board marble unfortunately black won work very well for the one side anybody with ideas for nice surfaces would also like use the image command rayshade and the heightfield command unfortunately the manual very vague about this and don have craig kolb email address anybody with ideas because this essential for next venture into raytracing where should post the finished chessboard there anybody else using rayshade non unix systems how fast does unix render thanks rayshade the best program for people who loves graphics but have artistic talent
comp.graphics	interviews graphics package hello trying out the graphics package interviews besides the man pages the classes haven got any documentation there anything else around furthermore can anyone send small example program which shows how use these classes together would very gratefull
comp.graphics	developable surface article khe hkuxb hku hkuxa hku abel writes netters currently doing some investigations developable surface can anyone familiar with this topic give some information sources which can allow find some infomation developable surface thanks for your help abel hkuxa hku developable surface you can lay roll flat the plane may require you give cut though cylinder cone plane course any surface patch having vanishing gaussian intrinsic curvature with singular hessian the matrix derivatives for adequate coordinate patch are developable more technical words developable surface locally isometric plane all points think also the sphere the earth which non developable whatever way you cut you will not able lay flat any pieces its intrinsic curvature nowhere vanishing for more details this look any book differential geometry which treats surfaces manifolds carmo book book carmo differential author carmo manfredo title differential geometry curves and surfaces year publisher prentice hall note pages enjoy frederic leymarie leyfre mcrcim mcgill edu mcgill university electrical eng dept mcrcim tel university montreal canada fax
comp.graphics	views isomorphic perspectives working upon game using isometric perspective similar that used populous basically you look into room that looks similar the following xxxx xxxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx xxxx the good thing about this perspective that you can look and move around three dimensions and still maintain your peripheral vision since your viewpoint always the same the routines can hard coded for particular vantage case wall two rising edge has slope also using mode run into two problems sure that other readers have tried this before and have perhaps formulated their own opinions the routines for drawing walls were trivial but when ran packed planar image through them was dismayed the jaggies now considered some anti aliasing routines speed not really necessary worth the effort have the artist draw the wall already skewed thus being assured nice image this too much burden wall presents problem the algorithm used tends overly distort the original tried decide paper what pixels where and failed has anyone come with method for mapping planar crosswise sheared shape currently take and produce line follows the slope line directly under line line moves line and left pixels line under line this fills the shape exactly without any unfilled pixels but causes distortions has anyone come with better way perhaps necessary simply draw the original bitmap already skewed are there any other particularly sticky problems with this perspective was planning having hidden plane removal using buffering locations are stored form for those you who noticed the top lines wall and wall are parallel with its bottom lines this why there appears optical illusion appears either the inside outside cube depending your mood there are vanishing points this simplifies the drawing code for objects which don have change size they move about the room decided that this approximation alright since small displacements large enough distance cause very little change the apparent size object real perspective drawing hopefully the context the picture chairs the floor torches hanging the walls will dispell any visual ambiguity thanks advance for any help till next time email pinky tamu edu sam inala
comp.graphics	rayshade query article sunvax sun sunvax sun writes also looking for surface for the chesspieces the board marble unfortunately black won work very well for the one side anybody with ideas for nice surfaces how about brass silver seen real chessboards that use that material where should post the finished chessboard right here good place any can wait see use the pov raytracer compatible enough for your chessboard don know you got the whole picture not but doesn seem like running all thrusters leonard mccoy guess you spock that extraordinary james kirk brian smith besmith mosaic uncc edu
comp.graphics	finding equally spaced points sphere article trd rpi edu deweeset ptolemy rdrc rpi edu thomas deweese writes hello know that this has been discussed before but the time didn need teselate sphere any kind soul has the code the alg that was finally decided upon the best recall was nice iterative subdivision meathod would very appreciative here one andrew graphics gems glassner that got from collegue mine think fiddled with little bit make deal with whatever bizarre problem was working the time but known work spl spheres asg feb spl thu mar est include stdio include math define struct point struct double static double radius static double xorg static double yorg static double zorg sphere freq double int freq double double double int pole double northy southy poley double rtheta rtheta ntheta ntheta magicangle double theta thetastart thisy den struct point node pnp struct point struct radius xorg yorg zorg north pole magicangle northy radius sin magicangle southy radius sin magicangle for pole pole pole pole poley radius thisy northy thetastart else poley radius thisy southy thetastart for theta thetastart theta theta rtheta theta rtheta theta poley radius cos rtheta thisy radius sin rtheta radius cos rtheta thisy radius sin rtheta pole make ring the other way normals are right den den sqrt den den radius den den den sqrt den den radius den den den sqrt den den radius den subdivide tri freq now the body for theta theta theta rtheta theta rtheta theta ntheta theta ntheta theta radius cos rtheta northy radius sin rtheta radius cos rtheta northy radius sin rtheta radius cos ntheta southy radius sin ntheta radius cos ntheta southy radius sin ntheta den den sqrt den den radius den den den sqrt den den radius den den den sqrt den den radius den den den sqrt den den radius den subdivide tri freq subdivide tri freq return define norm register double sqrt subdivide tri struct point struct int struct point struct struct point struct double den den den sqrt den den radius den den den sqrt den den radius den den den sqrt den den radius den subdivide tri subdivide tri subdivide tri subdivide tri else norm norm norm nothing special about this poly printf xorg yorg zorg printf xorg yorg zorg printf xorg yorg zorg return steve lamont sciviguy spl szechuan ucsd edu san diego microscopy and imaging resource san diego jolla other car car too bumper strip seen
comp.graphics	fonts pov article wampyr uow edu wampyr uow edu coronado emmanuel abad writes have seen several ray traced scenes from mtv was rayshade with stroked fonts appearing objects the image the fonts chars had color depth and even textures associated with them now was wondering possible the same pov noel made some attempts write converter that reads adobe type fonts triangulates them bevelizes them and extrudes them result generic object which could used with pov the problem currently stuck that theres algorithm which triangulates any arbitrary polygonal shape delaunay seems limited convex hulls constrained delaunay may okay but have code example how another way the bartman may tga pov selfmade variation this using heightfields create picture big the text you need using postscript previewer then use this heightfield white black the heightfield exactly the images white parts still open the backside close mirror and compound with the original example object union height field gif abp gif height field gif abp gif scale texture glass translate center rotate rotate upwards scale scale bigger and thicker translate final placement abp gif gif arbitrary size containing abp black white times roman points brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.graphics	psygnosis titles was rumours about article apr rchland ibm com ricardo rchland vnet ibm com ricardo hernandez muchado writes anyway still with mhz you need sprites for lot tricks for making cool awesome games read psygnosis speaking psygnosis they have licensed games philips interative media international for the following was recently posted message the section the multimedia forum seventh guest has been licensed virgin games philips interactive media international for worldwide rights were also licensed litil divil from gremlin graphics and microcosm from psygnosis those three titles will adapted using the full potential the fmv cartridge meaning using the additional memory well the motion video capabilities those titles have been negociated europe but will available worldwide also lemmings have been licensed from psygnosis well striker soccer from rage don know when these titles will available when work them even started don expect your retailer have them yet there was also some mention future nintendo games issue the magazine ert mario hotel was mentioned having levels mark although work for philips don work multimedia the above info just provided good faith from what read and does not represent any statement from philips mark samson information technology group philips research laboratories cross oak lane redhill surrey tel ext tel labs telex fax email seri samson prlhp unix samson prl philips binary files packages prlhp
comp.graphics	scf files help needed from article apr com tlc com got old demo disk that need view was made using rix softworks the files the two diskette set end with scf the demo was vga resolution colors but don know the spatial resolution according colorix manual scf files are first problem when try run the demo the screen has two black bars that cut across horizontally the screen the top third and bottom third the screen the bars are about inch wide other than this the demo the animation part seems running fine second problem can find any graphics program that will open and display these files have couple image conversion programs none mention scf files you may try vpic think handles the color rix files rob sherry sherry okstate edu
comp.graphics	studio any differences with previous version understand the difference between studio and mainly the ipas interface along with few small bug fixes the ipas code runs lot faster the newest version chris johnston materials engineer nasa lewis research center internet chris sarah lerc nasa gov brookpark cleveland usa resistance futile
comp.graphics	photoshop for windows article uhim jfq rot beaver rot andre boivert writes looking for comments from people who have used heard about photoshop for windows good how does compare the mac version there lot bugs heard the windows version needs fine tuning also photoshopii out soon has anyone got date and any cofmments andy andrew leahy aleahy cch coventry odd frog what piece work man how noble reason how infinite faculties form and moving how express and admirable action how like angel apprehension how like god the beauty the world the paragon animals and yet what the quintessence dust man delights not shakespeare hamlet
comp.graphics	tiff philosophical significance article alice att com alice att com tom duff writes ulrich galki toppoint wrote does anyone have any other suggestions where the came from forty two six times nine for very small values six and nine sorry tom couldn resist
comp.graphics	graphics formats currently looking for information about different graphics formats especially ppm pcx bmp and perhaps gif does anyone know there exist any files some site that describes these formats thanks erik brenn email erikb idt unit oooo faculty computer science telematics the norwegian institute technology trondheim oooo not make sense just cents
comp.graphics	wanted info image databases padmini srivathsa wisconsin writes would like references any introductory material image databases happy international snail mail technical information imaging databases anyone who needs you can provide with your address for hard copy not email focusing mostly open pace oracle ingres adabas sybase and gupta regarding our imaging databases installed have over installed and production now most the new ones going are novell lans the and now unix workstations work with visual basic too michael willett office wang com
comp.graphics	problems grabbing block starbase screen the moment trying grab portion starbase screen and store area memory the data needs bit format which shouldn problem the app running bit screen though not too fussy about the exact format actually intend write the data out tiff but that bits not the problem does anyone out there know how grab portion the screen the block read call seems grab the screen but not bit colour whatever the screen window type get byte per pixel thanks advance martin martin preston preston manchester computer graphics computer graphics unit manchester computing centre just university manchester load balls manchester phone
comp.graphics	under dos recently found for dos subdirectory gnu gnuish use frequently sun spark station and never had problems but when start computer with option display the help menu and when start with gif file hard disk turns seconds and the prompt come back computer little with copro mega rams tseng running dos with himem sys and emm sys had the exe too but driver who run with somenone know the solution run any help would apprecied you probably need server running top dos use desqview but any dos server should technical documentation writing the words for the features that only the customers actually use don have opinions have factual interpretations the power uunet rutgers mcdhup inferno tom can found periphonics corporation veterans memorial highway bohemia they pay write not express their opinions
comp.graphics	closed curve intersection would like reference algorithm that can detect whether one closed curve bounded some number bezier curves lies completely within another closed curve bounded bezier curves thanks sean lamont ask about the wsi fonts zeno genetics washington edu professional collection for next lamont abstractsoft com abstract software
comp.graphics	print graph printer this seems simple problem but just cannot solve wrote program draw some polygons the screen and want print printer press print screen the keyboard the problem the printer just print out some ascii characters there any other way print the screen without using print screen please help
comp.graphics	there ftp achive for usgs terrain data there ftp archive for united states geological services usgs terrain data where charles boesel diablo creative pro for and con against cboesel diablo holonet net then what the opposite progress pager what else congress
comp.graphics	need postscript strokeadjust info need information the display postscript strokeadjust feature this feature adjusts the endpoints lines that the displayed line looks better low resolution devices the postscript literature explains the process some extent they also give example how emulate strokeadjust postscript environments where absent the suggested emulation modify the coordinates the endpoints line using the following formula for each coordinate new coord round old coord doing this end with all coordinates ending from reading thought that what they might actually new coord trunc old coord this results all the coordinates ending either whichever closer doing some actual comparisons with display postscript find that neither these what dps really uses since like how the dps result looks better than how stuff looks like know anyone who knows how dps does willing able tell thanks steve squeegee world std com
comp.graphics	package for fashion designer this article was probably generated buggy news reader
comp.graphics	packages for fashion designers hello looking for commercial software packages for professional fashion designers any recommendation and pointers are greatly appreciated please mail you may thanks million
comp.graphics	mpeg location can anyone tell where find mpeg viewer either dos windows thanks advance alan jackson mail ajackson cch cov liverpool football club simply the best you never walk alone
comp.graphics	color palette for color vga rainbow does anybody out there have know how calculate the rgb values required set the color vga palette that the colors from will give colors the rainbow red orange yellow etc any help would appreciated please email eeerik newcastle edu erik castro lopo dept electrical computer eng uni newcastle australia
comp.graphics	attractive drawing the sphere have made attractive program computer for drawing the sphere and pasting paper for children artists and education can send example alt source wanted which you can see the rotation the sphere you are interested children can design tesselations the many famous regular polyhedra without serious difficaltis and print patterns paste their spherical models moscow tel after clock mail valentin vulihman
comp.graphics	attractive drawing the sphere subscribe comp graphics quit
comp.graphics	newsgroup split article nerone apr sylvester utexas edu nerone ccwf utexas edu michael nerone writes article quvdoinn srvr engin umich edu tdawson engin umich edu chris herringshaw writes concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not also readily observable that the current spectrum amiga groups already plagued with mega crossposting thus the group split would not all likelihood bring about more structured environment glad you write that got flamed all along because begged not crosspost some nonsense articles the problem with crossposting the first poster aware that this posting crossposting too but what else should one you never know where the interested people stay split newsgroups brings even more crossposting jan holler bern switzerland good not good enough make better holli holler augs adsp sub org second chance holler iamexwi unibe fast mail cbmehq cbmswi augs holli holler cbmvax commodore com
comp.graphics	tom gaskins pexlib phigs programming manuals reilly could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books pexlib programming manual phigs programming manual why would want buy one book the other book have running sco unix desktop sun lab and access variety other systems alliant cray the network mostly would like modeling visualization rat rabbit monkey and human brain structure thanks alexander james annala principal investigator neuroscience image analysis network hedco neuroscience building fifth floor university southern california university park los angeles
comp.graphics	scf files help needed article apr daimi aau rued daimi aau writes rix files with the extension sci and scf are just raw file with color palette stuff deleted regards thomas you happen know what sco rix file alex kiernan akiernan falcon demon
comp.graphics	help miro crystal ati gup planning buy new vlb eisa system with good graphic performance far looked the ati gup vlb favorite graphics card but recently heard something about new card from miro was the miro crystal with and true color support costs just little more than the ati can decide which one matches better needs any technical references and performance comparisons especially from the miro card would greatly appreciated peter mail kohut urz unibas universitas basiliensis switzerland
comp.graphics	news list image processing systems moscow scientific inductrial association spectrum offer videoscan vision system for wich include software and set controllers software for support videoscan family program kit was developed kit includes more then different functions for image processing kit works the interactive regime and has include help for non professional users there are next possibility input frame any board videoscan family read white image from disk print image the printer makes arithmetic with frames filter image work with gistogramme edit image include users exe modules controller the function controller load images into controller allows one load fragment the frame from field pixels the clock rate mhz when loading image with pixel the line and mhz when loading pixels image this provides the equal pixel size input image both horizontal and vertical directions the number gray levels any input modes video signal capture time controller the purpose the controller enter the images into ibm any other machine that type the controller was created the base modern elements including user programmable gate arrays the controller allows digitize input signal with different resolutions its flexible architecture makes possible change technical parameters instead signal one can process any other analog signal including signals from slow speed scanning devices the controller has the following technical characteristics memory volume from resolution when working with standard video signal from pixels resolution when working slow input regime pixels video signal capture time maximum size screen when memory volume pixels number gray level clock rate for input mhz input video multiplexer input output lookup table lut possibility realize scroll and zoom lines for external synchronization input using external controlling signal electronic adjustment black and white reference for analog digital converter possibility output image the color rgb monitor one can change all listed above functions and parameters the controller reprogramming image processor image processor allows digitize and process signal real time possible digitize signal with resolution and realize arithmetic and logic operation with two images processor was created the base modern elements including user programmable gate arrays and designed board for memory volume allows write the frames with format possible accumulate until images the processor has the following technical characteristics memory volume number the gray level input video multiplexer input output lookup table electronic adjustment for black and white adc reference image size from possibility color and black white output possibility input from slow scan video sources
comp.graphics	renderman shaders discussion does anyone know site where could ftp some renderman shaders newsgroup which has discussion information about renderman new the renderman mac family and like get much info can lay hands thanks andy bates andy bates
comp.graphics	coreldraw bitmap scodal article gmginn zephyr grace cri srlnjal grace cri writes yes aware coreldraw exports scodal but you try export scodal with bitmap will say something like cannot export anyone out there knows way around this all ears think one not ideal solution use the tracing utility can remember the name sorry included the corel draw pack can convert bitmaps corel art format these can then imported into drawing rather than the bitmap result the file completely corel format and can scodal problem but the slight problem with this which makes the solution less than idea that the trace utility spits out many more points than are necessary define the shapes being traced straight lines and curves are both traced many short segments the scodal taking much longer image the obvious solution time consuming stripping out the extra points hand using corel ouch done few times was just wondering there was anything out there that just did the bitmap scodal part tad cheaper jeff lyall say you don mind the problems via the route bitmap corel via trace hand trimming using corel combine with main corel pic via import scodal cheers toby toby freeman glasgow university freemant glasgow dcs
comp.graphics	pov problems with tga outputs can fiqure this out have properly compiled pov unix machine running sunos the problem that when run the sample pov files and use the exact same parameters when compiling different tga outputs some the tga are okay and other are unrecognizable any software help edb tamsun tamu edu
comp.graphics	bit graphics was recently talking possible employer mine and made reference bit graphics computer image processing system seem remember being called image something akin that anyway claimed had bit color bit alpha channel that bits info what could that possibly for specifically the bit color that trillion colors many more than the human eye can resolve this anti aliasing thing this just some magic number make work better with certain processor also settle bet with roommate what are sgi flagship products know iris indigo and crimson but what are the other ones and which their top the line sadly have access none them just dec sigh eric oehler oehler picard wisc edu
comp.graphics	adobe photo shop type software for unix motif platforms have been shipping for over one year the adobe display postscript dps silicon graphics workstations file servers and supercomputers the adobe illustrator for silicon graphics machines was released last february adobe and sgi announced last october that photoshop will available sgi systems initial release will support bit color graphics ivan bach sgi com disclaimer not speak for employer
comp.graphics	there ftp achive for usgs terrain data diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes there ftp archive for united states geological services usgs terrain data where point your gopher client merlot welch jhu edu and select the following directories search and retrieve software search and retrieve graphics software and data and you see graphics online bibliography acm siggraph graphics software and data archives ftp sites search all graphics information search comp graphics faq search graphics resources software and data search pictures utilities faq graphics online bibliography acm siggraph searches and archives bibliographic database that covers graphics literature for over hundred years served gopher hole austria graphics software and data archives ftp sites has links over sites around the world which have software and data for computer graphics this can used its own companion the searches found this directory which will point you toward software and data various places search all graphics information search comp graphics faq search graphics resources software and data search pictures utilities faq these searches contain wealth information about computer graphics data software techniques etc search all graphics information will simply search all the information contained searches and search comp graphics faq lets you search the faq frequently asked questions from the comp graphics newsgroup compiled john grieggs the jpl search graphics resources software and data lets you search the grpahics resource listing software and data provided nick fotis the national technical univ athens search pictures utilities faq lets you search the faq frequently asked questions from the alt binaries pixutils newsgroup compiled jim howard cadence select search all graphics information and search for usgs and you find out some information about usgs data availability now select graphics software and data archives ftp sites and you might find the following interesting cartographic data usgs data xerox mapgen plotgen and more usgs usgs weekly seismicity reports including maps gif usgs earth science data directory this actually database available data search for terrain could prove quite useful one other place look only available anonymous ftp the moment geological survey maps isdres usgs gov you never heard gopher don worry free and the net write note you like information how get started best luck dan jacobson danj welchgate welch jhu edu johns hopkins university
comp.graphics	advice sought turning font outlines into renderable polygons seeking some alternate solutions how turn postscript type truetype font outline into polygons that can subsequently scan converted scanline renderer have been studying the problem font conversion for few years but have never had the need implement such system well now have the opportunity write some font rendering software would like have some questions answered before jump into the deep end the main problem face how use the even odd non winding rules turn the outlines into single outline polygon renderer can handle complex polygons there need reduce the polygons simple polygons for example the letter there are two outlines the outside outline which clockwise truetype font the inside outline which counterclockwise one common solution used number rendering packages simply connect the inner outline the outer outline the point where the two outlines are closest this equivalent descibing polygon with holes the renderer will then make the appropriate hole since the interior polygon edges are the opposite direction the outside edges not want use this simplistic system since will not handle all outline fonts properly not simple matter connect the outer outline the inner outline for some fancy fonts does not properly handle the even odd non winding rules from research over the years the proper solution use trapezoid decomposition algorithm scan convert the outlines into trapezoids done the postscript and truetype font rasterizers these trapezoidal polygons can then easily and properly rendered the scanline renderer question are there any better solutions turning the outlines into polgyons other than the trapezoid decomposer not fond this solution since creates excess number polygons another question for those the know what the best algorithm create bevelled and offset curves for font outlines have dozen papers these subjects but can tell which method the best implement thanks for any pointers rob lansdale robert lansdale dynamic graphics project internet lansd dgp toronto edu computer systems research institute uucp uunet dgp toronto edu lansd university toronto bitnet lansd dgp utoronto toronto ontario canada
comp.graphics	looking for usa map does anyone out there have know line drawing usa map thanks very much advance hoi yoo engr ucf edu
comp.graphics	files what are they was chaining around the anonymous ftp world looking for studio meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program and found few files with the extension doesn know this type file what are they and course the perennial where are some meshes fli files etc out there would have thought that someone would have collected few and put them somewhere but alas without this knowledge mucho appreciato douginoz
comp.graphics	ftp for targa looking for software run brand new targa anyone knows any sites which have useful stuff you have any yourself you want give let know via mail thanks lot yayayay jamie ddsw mcs com
comp.graphics	mgr naplps gui bbs frontends all looking into methods can use turn linux based bbs into full color graphical bbs that supports mac linux and amiga callers originally was inspired the naplps graphics standard summary which hit this group about weeks ago following software availability naplps supporting software find that most terminal programs are commercial the only resonable shareware one being which runs soley msdos machines leaving mac and amiga users buy full commercial software they want try out the bbs know wouldn next most interesting possibility port mgr mac amiga know there old version mac port bellcore com that doesn work under system but can seem find the source anywhere see can patch there color version mgr for linux know there was alpha version the libs out last year but misplaced does anyone this group know mgr been ported amiga can seem send message the mgr channel without bouncing does anyone have any other suggestions for linux based gui bbs thanks advan
comp.graphics	gaspra animation quicktime gaspra animation march the gaspra animation now available the ames space archives quicktime format the animation was formed from images taken the galileo spaecraft shortly before its closest approach the asteroid october the animation available using anonymous ftp ftp ames arc nasa gov user anonymous pub space animation files gaspra ron baalke baalke kelvin jpl nasa gov jet propulsion lab telos kind fun pasadena the impossible walt disney
comp.graphics	vga scrolling you want have soft scrolling your vga you have change some intern registers the crtc but little bit difficult explain would suggest you take look the programming the ega vga adapter addison wesley you will find all useful descriptions for every available vga register boris bobo ponton hanse boris pruessmann
comp.graphics	tiff description sorry for wasting your time with probably simple question but not computer graphic expert want read tiff files with pascal program the problem that the files want read are compressed form code huffman all books articles found describe only the plain uncompressed format don know where get the original tiff specification furthermore haven any access realy complete library can anybody direct good book even better specification available via ftp thanks advance thomas wolf direct mail would prefered
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly article vmcbrt diablo uucp diablo uucp cboesel charles boesel writes yeah corel draw and wordperfect presentations pretty limited here too since there not really such thing decent raster vector conversion program this tracing technique about simple stuff like logos etc pretty well while more complicated stuff goes haywire suspect even though don write code that good bitmapped vector conversion program would probably big most these application softwares using but even how come one hasn been written knowledge mean even hijaak one the commercial industry standards file conversion hasn attempted yet mac mcdougald any opinions expressed herein the photography center are not necessarily actually univ tenn knoxville are almost certainly not those mac utkvx utk edu the university tennessee mac utkvx bitnet things are more like they are now fax than they ever been before
comp.graphics	tom gaskins pexlib phigs programming manuals reilly merlin neuro usc edu merlin writes could someone explain the difference between tom gaskins two books pexlib programming manual phigs programming manual why would want buy one book the other book have running sco unix desktop sun lab and access variety other systems alliant cray the network mostly would like modeling visualization rat rabbit monkey and human brain structure rather than decide which book you want buy you need decide which programming interface you want use then buy the appropriate book wrote article for the resource which discusses the differences between phigs and pexlib will appear issue which should out pretty soon but here brief summary phigs graphics api which was designed portable many devices most implementations support the window system and take advantage extension called pex pexlib slightly lower level api which was designed efficiently support the pex extension some advantages using pexlib integrates with xlib motif etc better than phigs provides immediate mode capabilities free policy pex supports phigs but currently being extended support features not found phigs like texture mapping anti aliasing pexlib will give you access all these features some advantages using phigs support for multiple devices not just based ones support for archiving metafiles hardcopy output phigs has predefined input devices make input easier phigs can handle exposure events and resizing for you phigs can help you with colormap selection creation you working strictly and don care about things like archiving would with pexlib either way you will find that both api have lot common ralph mor mit consortium
comp.graphics	mpeg location alan jackson ajackson cch coventry wrote can anyone tell where find mpeg viewer either dos windows thanks advance alan jackson mail ajackson cch cov liverpool football club simply the best you never walk alone you can find windows mpeg viewer wuarchive wustl edu the mirrors msdos windows directory tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	newsgroup split chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon what said tmc tmc spartan brocku
comp.graphics	rumours about article lot rapnbh viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes read issue wired magazine has long article the hype noticed that every article talks with the designers and how great but never show any pictures the output least pictures that one can understand gamepro magazine published pictures few months ago and computer chronicles program that syndicated public stations around the nation spent several minutes when was shown ces was very impressive what can real time john munsch don take that mean that believe that the system going take over the world something just that clearly has lot more horsepower than any the vis sega turbo duo crowd
comp.graphics	tiff anything article apr spartan brocku tmc spartan brocku tim ciceran writes there program called graphic workshop you can ftp from wuarchive the file the msdos graphics directory and called grfwk zip this program should everthing you need tmc tmc spartan brocku thanks did work and just what needed thanks joshuaf
comp.graphics	newsgroup split tmc spartan brocku tim ciceran writes chris herringshaw tdawson engin umich edu wrote concerning the proposed newsgroup split personally not favor doing this learn awful lot about all aspects graphics reading this group from code hardware algorithms just think making different groups out this wate and will only result few posts week per group kind like the convenience having one big forum for discussing all aspects graphics anyone else feel this way just curious daemon what said ditto here too tmc tmc spartan brocku joe noble pogo den mmc com all the beauty dying vulture the smile the truly stupid
comp.graphics	loosing color guys scanning color image and looks fine the screen when converted into pcx bmp gif files get into windows the colors got much lighter for example the yellows became white any ideas thanks dan csc phx vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	color problem scanning color image and looks fine the screen when converted into pcx bmp gif files get into windows the colors got much lighter for example the yellows became white any ideas thanks dan csc phx vaxc hofstra edu
comp.graphics	why does illustrator autotrace poorly shareware graphics program called pman has filter that makes picture look like hand drawing this picture could probably converted into vector format much easier because all lines with corel trace etc
comp.graphics	pov ray problem please help hello recently had povray draw about sample files the problem that accidently erased the command povray def that made the image targas file now the files are the dump format how fix these files with out having trace them fix mean turn them into targas thanks advance jerry jerry lineberry internet lineber lonestar utsa edu compuserve
comp.graphics	scip fiction set comp science programming environs scip ction set sci programming environs list ian feldman written book title publisher year isbn john brunner shockwave rider ray ballantine cracking the net free information for the common good pat cadigan mindplayers absolute must have bruce sterling pat cadigan synners bantam virtual reality orson scott card lost boys harper collins programmer and family encounters strange events north carolina denise danks frame grabber martin hrdb gbp computer illiterate journalix tracks down murderer via bbs toni dwiggins interrupt techno mystery set silicon valley michael frayn the tin men fontana inspired lunacy but out print david gerrold when harlie was one release bantam william gibson count zero computers gods part trilogy william gibson mona lisa overdrive virtual reality william gibson burning chrome cyberpunk short stories william gibson neuromancer industrial espionage author guilty inventing the cyberpunk genre james hogan the genesis machine del ray james hogan thrice upon time time travel for information james hogan the two faces tomorrow del ray ultimate test letting run spacelab amok stanislaw lem his master voice failed attempt decode message tom maddox halo remarkable robots artificial intelligence george martin nightflyers tor books macavoy tea with the black dragon mystery around computer fraud situation computing bits ring true vonda mcintyre steelcollar worker analog nov blue collar marge piercy body glass penguin data piracy review finger books body glass danny orthanc david pogue hard drive diamond programmer dies accident leaves documentation behind software firms fight for market share with virii right out the pages macworld steve brock richard powers the gold bug variations morrow famous molecular scientist ponders the why love life edp dept paul preuss human error nanotech computer infects brain damaged kid thomas ryan the adolescence ace runaway experiment takes over mainframes wrecks havoc bruce sterling the difference engine with gibson bantam finger books the difference engine danny orthanc cliff stoll the cuckoo egg non fiction but reads like one review ftp garbo uwasa mac tidbits mar etx tom thomas smart computers vernor vinge across realtime baen books several titles vernor vinge tatja grimm world baen books soon available vernor vinge the witling baen books millennium vernor vinge threats and other promises baen books books vernor vinge true names other dangers baen books vernor vinge fire upon the deep tor books essentially about the future the internet john varley press enter short story gruesome but good yourdon silent witness computer crime caper story gumshoe has explain intricacies computer girlfriend herbert franke das zentrum der milchstrasse the center the galaxy herbert franke letzte programmierer the last programmer not mean frank herbert emil zopfi computer fuer nacht limmat verlag switzerland emil zopfi jede minute kostet franken last german last set the commercial computing world the early current version this list via finger scip danny orthanc compiled mail additions comments updates ianf random statistical breakdown scip fiction nominations title author books nominated the adolescence ryan vinge titles neuromancer gibson gibson titles true names and other dangers vinge ryan the adolescence shockwave rider brunner brunner shockwave rider when was one gerrold gerrold when fire upon the deep vinge hogan titles threats and other promises vinge lem fiasco hmv solar total nominations authors female sent readers contributions unsorted fifo from sbrock teal csn org steve brock from john lacey johnl indiana edu from malloy nprdc navy mil sean malloy from thom kevin gillespie thom silver ucs indiana edu from paul christopher workman andrew cmu edu from kellys code code com kelly sorensen from whughes lonestar utsa edu william hughes from north curtin edu tim north from loreti fnal fnal gov maurizio loreti from stephen hart stephenh mun from duane marble dmarble magnus acs ohio state edu from matthias neeracher neeri iis ethz from wolfram wagner mpi mpg from webb tsavo hks com peter webb from setzer ssd comm mot com thomas setzer from kevles acf nyu edu beth kevles from world std com jeff delpapa from rsquires cyclops eece unm edu roger squires from hartman ulogic com richard hartman from vernor vinge vinge saturn sdsu edu from paul lebeau plebeau cix compulink from lawrence rounds ljr beach cis ufl edu from phydeaux cumc cornell edu david weingart from chgs vaxa strath learning courtesy from rowan fairgrove rowanf cache crc ricoh com from peterc suite peter chubb from gara pruesse gara toronto edu from russell alpha ersys edmonton russell schulz from ahm spatula rent com andreas meyer from jon washington edu jon jacky from eugene nas nasa gov eugene miya from mair chgs vaxb strathclyde from mengel dcdmwm fnal gov marc mengel from roger scowen rss seg npl from kevino clbooks com kevin oster system administrator from chavey wisc edu darrah chavey from vonda mcintyre mcintyre cpac washington edu from bruce sterling bruces well from scott thomas yabiku yabi midway uchicago edu from thomas adshead uad dircon from paul andrews compuserve com mucho thanks all ian the other internet worm feldman ianf random
comp.graphics	interviews graphics package rene dutch student renes ecpdsharmony cern wrote trying out the graphics package interviews besides the man pages the classes haven got any documentation there anything else around furthermore can anyone send small example program which shows how use these classes together would very gratefull you might want try comp windows interviews
comp.graphics	fractal compression article inu lindblat monash edu inu lindblat monash edu rachmat writes can anybody give book reference title give start fractal image compression technique helps will appreciated thanx for better worse the source this michael barnsley his article the science fractal images peitgen fair middling intro barnsley book fractals everywhere more thorough treatment the book covers iterated function systems general and their application image compression clear from the text memory jbulf kpc com
comp.graphics	graphics needed looking for graphics clipart bmp gif anything relating ophthalmology know weird request anything such eyeglasses contact lenses eyes would greatly appreciated thanks
comp.graphics	jpeg file format peterbak microsoft com peter bako writes where could find description the jpg file format specifically need know where jpg file can find the height and width the image and perhaps even the number colors being used any suggestions peter try ftp net graphics jpeg chun hung lin csie ntu edu communication multimedia lab dept comp sci info eng national taiwan university taipei taiwan
comp.graphics	easy translate jpeg code does anyone out there have any jpeg decompression code pretty much any language that can read and understand have trouble understanding the jpeg group code that got from ftp site any one can send some good code will appreciate lot thanks stuart denman stusoft washington edu
comp.graphics	files what are they doug hparc aus com doug parsons writes was chaining around the anonymous ftp world looking for studio meshes and other interesting graphical stuff for the program and found few files with the extension doesn know this type file what are they they are object files for cad program written tom hudson for the atari computers don know much more about them except that they are stored with the points first then the surfaces are next and are made listing point numbers that make the triangle surface then there header that describes coloring lighting etc don know much more than this hope this helps stuart denman stusoft washington edu
comp.graphics	gif bmp saz hook corp mot com does anybody know program that converts gif files bmp files and where can ftp from any help would greatly appreciated sure great shareware program graphic workshop the newest version although don know where you can ftp from also converts about other formats and does many other things ell deluxe address eric vitiello tfd coplex com
comp.graphics	need viewer for files article dux dundee dwestner cardhu mcs dundee dominik westner writes the subject says all there viewer for files for thanks dominik dominik have you tried xgrasp out there several ftp sites not sure which but archie can find sure works but lacks interface jason weiler weilej rpi edu
comp.graphics	where did all the texture rules noticed that you only save model with all your mapping planes positioned carefully file that when you reload after restarting they are given default position and orientation but you save prj file their positions orientation are preserved does anyone know why this information not stored the file nothing explicitly said the manual about saving texture rules the prj file like able read the texture rule information does anyone have the format for the prj file the cel file format available from somewhere rych rycharde hawkes email rych festival virtual environment laboratory dept psychology tel univ edinburgh fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	kermit available for windows from article vicuna ocunix steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix was wondering the kermit package the actual package not yes the usual ftp sites yek chong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win storm anyone have any info the video sound card from sigma designs called win storm they also have another card called the legend any info would appreciated incuding performance pricing and availability thanks srini
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win doublespace article hpwala wal com chrisa hpwarr com chris almy writes doublespace although not trust for hard disks sounds great for floppies the thouoght having mount the disk anoying but something can deal with the problem arises when under windows there way mount and unmount while under windows this part the upgrades soon available from other vendors chris can see why you would not trust because safer than any previous compression programs integrates into the kernal and makes nearly impossible delete
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse driver does anyone have the documentation for the mouse driver got when got windows but windows manual does not come with the documentation particular need know how turn off and how speed outside windows the greater sensitivity needed can play various games esp wing carlos niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu astra per ardua nostra
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win icon help please have win and downloaded several icons and bmp but can figure out how change the wallpaper use the icons any help would appreciated thanx brando please mail
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	smartdrv exe causing bad sectors having something very unusual happen first some background system have mitsubishi meg hard drive and running smartdrv the version that comes with windows rarely use windows use program called disk technician gold diagnostics live time hard drive works having device driver detect whenever more than one read necessary for file there anything else wrong with and minor problems are fully checked out upon rebooting hard drive notorious for bad sectors usually end with new bad sectors week here what happened ran program and dtg broke with emergency warning and recommended reboot gave this message twice before the program was fully loaded exited the program and did just this dtg went through its bootup process examining for new errors etc and screen popped and said something about sectors for brief period time then went back the program executed again and the exact same error was detected rebooted and tried again and the same error happened again removed dtg from memory and went the program see could detect anything wrong sure enough there was number read attempts rebooted and reloaded dtg but removed the cache executed the program read errors either audible detected dtg quit the program loaded the cache and ran the program again the errors were detected the errors are there and dtg detects but doesn fix them when the cache loaded when the cache not loaded there are errors see the cache was interfering with any other files went into xtree gold and tagged all files and searched them for random string other words wanted the program completely read every file hard drive before got through the dtg had detected least six errors and recommended reboot does anybody have any idea why smartdrv causing misreads hard drive there are exactly two misreads per file and about every files are affected originally posted this message disk technician corp system but figured someone out netland may know enough about smartdrv help out internet jdriver netlink cts com john driver uucp ryptyde netlink jdriver netlink online communications public access san diego
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows access for the blind apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes the micro oft display fose there were few computers running windows and win apps for the blind think didn pay much attention but was there seems that particular program designed for blind people more important than trying interface windows with way for blind people use someone made voice recognition multimedia sound oriented program would probably been more effective don know what the original purpose interfacing windows was for the person who posted the question though kirk membry our age the age industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why not using dos anymore been running dos for about month was generally impressed with the improvements the multiple boot configurations were great the new commands were nice and doublespace worked fine twice slow for large data transfers twice fast for small with smartdrv until now this morning while was working research paper had reboot hung dos program that did disk from within windows when machine finished rebooting found windows directory and about two thirds other directories were irreversibly corrupted cannot afford problems like this returning dos mark also noticed bad sector errors from doublespace where none should exist
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo hello brad monday april brad smalling wrote crosspost all for vga card these are the correct files but you can just copy them back and expect work you have create new win com file try the command you will have worry about what directories each file since don know your setup copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com grabbed this from supercharging windows judd robbins great book this also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup screen rle file just specially compressed bmp file brad what the procedure used specially compress the bmp file would love use some bmp files have created logo screen thanks chris origin chris doelle fidonet org
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	where get ati card video drivers fonts does anyone know where can ftp somehow else acquire the latest video drivers fonts for ati svga adapter the only floppy have for windows does anyone know ati still business thanks farley access digex com charles farley average calgary board employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype oem font with line drawing characters etc wanted title says all need truetype oem character set font one that contains the line drawing and other characters the character set similar those you get when running text mode application anyone could point such thing grateful the only oem fonts included with windows are not truetype regards colin manning
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo article rgtba gtn access digex net farley access digex com charles farley writes know this probably faq but installed the for ati graphics card and bashed windows logo files when start windows now has the logo instead the logo thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored these files but didn change the logo anyone know what the correct files are believe you have the correct files think what you have back into setup and choose change video adapter whatever called then the trick choose the same adaptor you currently have what setup does actually changes the file win com whenever you into and change the video hardware selection incorporates the contents vgalogo rle into win com when you this this trick can also used change the startup logo into whatever you want sig alert dbstrutt acs ucalgary end sig alert
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	document rtf article mar worak kaist tjyu eve kaist taijung writes does anybody have document rtf file know where can get thanks advance got one from microsoft tech support sterling bjorndahl bjorndahl augustana bjorndahl camrose uucp augustana university college camrose alberta canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winbench help graphics comparison article zogd news udel edu swyatt bach udel edu stephen wyatt writes have question about winbench labs thing have and ahead card and got these results windows vga driver million ahead driver winmarks windows svga driver million winmarks was thinking about upgrading diamond card read had about million winmark obviously this much much greater but this color mode what this good card street price about mhz ram winbench richard mayston maystonr grace cri
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	does dos defragment geoffrey elbo writes yes and the fastest defrag ever watched did hard disk minutes found the defrag looks very much like norton speedisk just strip down version the later have both norton speedisk and backup was wondering need install backup richard
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows gripe there one thing about windows that really frosts have ram installed system use under windows disk cache and permanent swap file while can never fill the memory still have problems sometimes because run out gdi resources what gives think windows could manage these resources little better are you using windows you still devotes about twice much memory these and runs out much less frequently you might use one the resource monitors such the one that comes with the windows resource kit one the many shareware ones available see which programs are hogging the resources every icon internal graphics brush etc every program running uses certain amount this limited memory area also some don give back when they finished lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winbench jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware writes there any ftp site that carries winbench results for different graphics cards excel xls format what the latest version winbench and how they differ the source available and has anybody try port window least way that will make comparisons possible ftp cica indiana edu pub win misc winadv zip writeup steve gibson infoworld with winbench and number other benchmark results for nine isa and four vlb video cards this very current upload and likely have any card you currently giving serious consideration not xls format latest version winbench that know ver believe they try maintain the same rating scale between versions and new versions are released defeat the lastest coding tricks put driver programmers beat the benchmarks don know the last one devilbiss col com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	norton desktop for windows article apr exu ericsson ebuwoo ebu ericsson james woo writes wonder anyone has had chance try out norton desktop for windows version yet understand the upgrade cost from about but have idea what the new version has got the offer upgrade this weekend shipping and handling the seem way too steep for just couple disks sounds like ripoff city can this purchased vendors bill volz chevron petroleum technology earth model interpretation analysis division box habra phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	does dos defragment article news cso uiuc edu rhc uxa cso uiuc edu richard writes geoffrey elbo writes yes and the fastest defrag ever watched did hard disk minutes found the defrag looks very much like norton speedisk just strip down version the later have both norton speedisk and backup was wondering need install backup richard yes defragger come from norton you have norton utility don bother
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	geos windows and unix sehari vincent iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes with limited knowladge about the geos came out with following comparison geos windows unix can run win programs nop yap yap nop novell least demoing windows apps running under unixware can run unix nop have not nop yap heard try mks mks others esp emx note here the mks toolkit for dos windows gives you good suite standard unix utilities there are other similar systems from other vendors well the emx system for gives you most the standard unix system calls for recompiling your unix programs under not quite the same thing actually running unix programs directly either case but emx makes almost compatible with unix systems many unix systems are with each other and best all emx free there similar system for dos but doesn work with windows far know price free good one costs avaliable ext card too should add the cost for dos with both geos and windows neither which standalone this point neither nor unix requires dos btw two the best unices seen for the pee cee are unixware for the personal edition and linux free don agree that good one costs and you really want check out the various options available you you should also look into desqview and desqview cheers chris waters the insane don judy the bedroom xtifr netcom com need disclaimers inventing situations byrne
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	comments xtree for windows looking for comments xtree pro for windows thinking buying the product but have not even seen yet thank you shane holland holland dal holland dal maurack dal
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft windows really and ope all icons program manager are aliases that explicit enough apparently not many people complain about the confusion that results from the filemanager progman split just basic flaw besides what about the control panel icons where are all those little files
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft windows really and operating system well you may think that but you are wrong the joys networking just hope that you forgot the you don like the file manager don use don use ndw like the more modular nature windoze you like things modular think you would love system instead adding line your autoexec bat you just drop the icon into the extensions folder just because one has had ignorance sold one the evil fruit empire one not forbidden learn about one file system below the level the gui still working that one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	sound blaster ver under windows article crossposted from comp speech comp sys ibm soundcard comp linux author was mario lauretti posted mon apr gmt have sound blaster ver when try install driver ver driver that comes with window tell upgrade card first now have found new drivers from creative labs but have problems installing after removing the vsbd old version that come windows after installing creative sound blaster midi synthesizer try install creative sound blaster wave but when the menu add unlisted updated driver and double click this driver have this error driver error cannot load creative sound blaster wave and midi driver the driver file may missing try installing the driver again contact your system administrator yes yes yes have read the readme and try every thing can somebody help mario laureti internet laurm tohi dmi usherb
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows gripe article ppmvf qnh bigboote wpi edu bigal wpi wpi edu nathan charles crowell writes there there one thing about windows that really frosts have ram installed system use under windows disk cache and permanent swap file while can never fill the memory still have problems sometimes because run out gdi resources what gives think windows could manage these resources little better does anyone have any input how conserve these resources that can avoid this problem nate nathan crowell dept mechanical engineering acrl worcester polytechnic institute mail bigal wpi wpi edu costing the net hundreds not thousands dollars nathan win has fixed limit gdi memory regardless physical ram installed this twice that win but not nearly robust enough for many developers and power users using amish launch your shell you can reduce gdi memory usage much over progman ndw dashboard and other graphical type icon based and other shells also nesting and full hot key global support offered something other shells have this time ted matsumura president amish software inc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm truetype which choose article tdgt mqq csn org rjn teal csn org wrote csd keele yearsley writes just bought which came with bundle lotus stuff including adobe type manager version newcomer windows confused about which should using atm truetype you are going stay with atm sure upgrade which replaces who knows how old fast and you disable the small screen fonts atm does better screen rendering the smaller point sizes not true both type and fonts can excellent quality and poor quality any size all depends the font maker and the complexity the glyphs related the size and resolution which they are viewed probably the reason for your opinion experience that inferior because most fonts the market today have been converted from type outlines either the font vendor end users using fontographer fontmonger instead the fonts being hand hinted take advantage the hinting language best these converted fonts will par with the type font its orgin truetype much richer and more robust hinting language than type the hinting diagonals for instance which does and type cannot you check out the windows core fonts times arial courier symbol wingdings you see what can done with there are other fonts out there that have been hand hinted and not just converted some the microsoft font pack fonts are hinted very well you can use both and atm fonts the same time you like atm type fonts tend higher quality and more complete terms foreign characters again not true the characters type font depend the maker someone converts type font they only get the characters the font orgin allows for much more flexibility this area well you can have thousands glyphs font file mac windows unicode char set and use the characters appropriate for the particular platform you are running the font for instance all our fontpack fonts have the mac windows char set them the metrics the fonts are such that the font brought over the mac the user will have access the full mac char set regards east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins compuserve hope this clears some the confusion feel free contact anyone would like more info regards dave glenn program manager microsoft font stuff davidgl microsoft com compuserve
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	does dos defragment article apr brown edu ksl engin nosubdomain nodomain kiseok lee writes from ksl engin nosubdomain nodomain kiseok lee subject does dos defragment date tue apr gmt article news cso uiuc edu rhc uxa cso uiuc edu richard writes geoffrey elbo writes yes and the fastest defrag ever watched did hard disk minutes found the defrag looks very much like norton speedisk just strip down version the later have both norton speedisk and backup was wondering need install backup richard yes defragger come from norton you have norton utility don bother don bother you have cpbackup fastback they all offer options not available the stripped down version from cps examples proprietary format save space probably direct dma access and tape drive you need defrag you use doublespace work the compressed volume
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	geos windows and unix article sehari vincent iastate edu sehari iastate edu babak sehari writes with limited knowladge about the geos came out with following comparison geos windows unix can run dos programs yes yes yes yes needed add lines deleted price free good one costs avaliable ext card too compiler don think yap yap yap yap yap yap fortran yap yap yap debuger yap yap yap min run dos hard you guys and gals add this list not throw our many down the tubes with highest regards babak sehari this list appears imply that windows that has cost listed above comes with compiler and fortran does not course these are expensive add ons that drive the price way beyond don know the same applies far unix concerned there free unix linux that has fortran xwindows and many other features besides with large number utilities that can optionally added and there also free bsd believe both these unix are quite robust you can check out comp linux you don want throw our many down the tubes you got break that list down little more roderick campbell department physics memorial university newfoundland john canada internet rcampbel weejordy physics mun
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows ramdrive help langleyrh ccsvax sfasu edu writes stuff del for bandwidth sake why sigh you don have more than mbs memory using ramdrive with windows waste memory windows will access upto ram better memory why what you did didn work because driveletters and paths are stored inside the group pif ini files all the sudden things went from drive drive however you wanted copy application the ramdrive and setup that should work normally but previously stated this will only hurt things unless you got more than mbs ram and are using whats above the ramdrive personally have ram and run ramdrive with great deal success however you are looking speed windows the three things noted that work the best are graphics accellerator card processor even emulator helps some other disk cache besides smartdrive tried several and lightning for windows and norton cache give major headaches well think the purpose the original poster was trying serve avoid the significant amount disk access that windows does startup like trying bit wearing the damn drive out estimate only reading programs data but from the performance the drive gives sounds like they are scattered all over the drive drive however regularily compressed what that takes much fuss perhaps would take the trouble optimize this startup process less people would wanting find solution themselves
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	geos windows and unix article news ucs mun rcampbel weejordy physics mun roderick campbell writes there free unix linux that has fortran xwindows and many other features besides with large number utilities that can optionally added and there also free bsd believe both these unix are quite robust you can check out comp linux dunno about linux but for bsd don forget networking well tested that nfs fast incredibly stable filesystem and the list goes for bsd folk look comp bsd chris moderator comp bsd announce anti politician and sometime evangelist chris demetriou cgd berkeley edu bsd depth first search whenever you fix something you find that more things are actually broken adam glass
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win article kkt gazette bcm tmc edu raymaker bcm tmc edu mark raymaker says anyone aware existing ipx netx software for windowsnt attachment netware future release please respond internet mail raymaker bcm tmc edu thanks believe the beta version the service available via ftp ftp cica indiana edu pub win called something like nwnt zip there index ascii file there which lists the programs that directory and what they unfortunately this beta will also disable netbeui and tcp over your primary nic you really want run get yourself extra nic and bind that otherwise wait for next release like adriene
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos emm windows prob has anyone else experienced problems with windows hanging after the installation dos have narrowed the problem down emm remove disable emm windows emm active with noems windows hangs use auto with emm the system hangs bootup dave david clarke the well deep wish well freenet carleton david clarke mtsa ubc clarkec sfu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows shareware monthly information windows shareware monthly wsm line forum for information about the newest and best windows and shareware freeware software wsm compilation submissions from shareware freeware authors single windows hlp help system file all types software may submitted for entry wsm utilities applications games programming tools etc wsm benefits windows shareware freeware authors allowing them publicize their software releases inform users updated versions and increase their installed base users those searching for specific windows software will benefit having complete list available software available their fingertips complete with feature lists current prices and any other relevant information windows software authors may submit entries windows shareware monthly the following manner compose short summary the function the software include all special features which are unique your product and which set apart from other programs the genre sure include specific details such the current release version where the software available how much the registration fee costs how much disk space required any special requirements sound card vbrun dll etc how the author may contacted etc because text highly compressible the summary may long necessary however best keep short good guideline single screenful point text resolution order forms and other such addendum may included desired all submissions whould plain text ascii format formatting will exactly submitted will simply cut and paste text files into help authoring system you require special formatting conventions such boldface text italics larger font size indicate clearly within the text file for best results use windows notepad create the txt file include windows format bmp bitmap screen shots which display the workings special features each program special cases rendering applications for example which require color bitmaps may submit bmp files all other should observe the limit and use color format for maximum compatiblity with the software which will used create the wsm hlp file stefan olson help writer assistant for windows please save the bitmaps with windows paintbrush wingif include color bmp the program icon ico file many programs are available convert ico bmp format windows paintbrush may used the bmp will embedded the summary text double check for spelling errors formatting corrections etc compress the txt file the bmp the program icon and any additional bmps into single file using pkzip any version submit the entry uuencoding the zipfile and mailing daa tamuts tamu edu submitting via the internet compuserve submitting via america online send brief message indicating submission and append the zip file then mail diegoaa any changes are required new version released complete the above procedures again send all submissions the tamuts address and any comments suggestions criticisms daa rigel tamu edu all entries received before the deadline will included the subsequent edition wsm the editor will not held responsible for any errors and reserve the right make changes the entries wsm not limited shareware freeware software special area will devoted commercially available windows and software commercial software authors should follow the same steps above with the exception the limitations size the txt file and bmps may large required and large practical for transmission over phone lines there charge for the publishing either shareware freeware commercial product entries advertisements for computer hardware software bulletin boards etc may submitted well again the same procedures apply with the exception the size limitations there charge for advertising space the first ten advertisements submitted each month will included subsequent submissions will not included due size constraints wsm currently looking for persons willing devote the time author columns within wsm programing section visual basic section and two windows specific opinion advice columns are envisioned all work will voluntary basis you wish aid wsm and author monthly column one the above topics please send mail daa tamuts tamu edu diegoaa america online the first edition wsm will distributed may via america online compuserve and the internet the deadline for submissions april the first edition filename will wsm zip with each subsequent monthly release continuing the series naming convention wsm zip etc each edition will released the first each month and the deadline for submission will least three days before release
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm truetype which choose article apr microsoft com davidgl microsoft com david glenn writes again not true the characters type font depend the maker someone converts type font they only get the characters the font orgin allows for much more flexibility this area well you can have thousands glyphs font file mac windows unicode char set and use the characters appropriate for the particular platform you are running the font well yes both type and truetype fonts can contain lots characters and both cases plain text fonts will reencoded windows ansi windows and mac standard roman encoding the mac difference there between and and for fonts with thousands glyphs right know these are liabiliaty rather than great new thing reason that font with characters very large and you can only access them you are paying heavy price downloading time and printer storage and the moment there only one program that uses partial font downloading for instance all our fontpack fonts have the mac windows char set them the metrics the fonts are such that the font brought over the mac the user will have access the full mac char set yes and text fonts all have the iso adobe character set which superset windows ansi and macintosh standard roman enocding the question whether you can get the glyphs windows for example you cannot get the ligatures anfd both and even though font may very well have them and while somewhat painful reencode type font and create new windows metric file pfm for there are utilities out there allow you this how reencode truetype font how can get the and ligatures windows the mac are there utilities that make possible circumvent the hard wired windows ansi encoding regards east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins compuserve berthold horn cambridge massachusetts usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	terminal software please reply via email when use the terminal software for windows such terminal exe crossttalk doesn use the whole window mean when the software window size max still scrolls around the window does not use whole window set stty rows but still the same scrolls from the top the windows could anyone tell how setup these software use whole window thanks advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pkunzip article dekalb peachnet edu kenneth dekalb peachnet edu kenneth palmertree writes hey does anyone know ftp site where can get pkunzip from tried using archie with such luck this version pkunzip suppose correct some promblems when using pkunzip within windows thanks advance you can get from ftp cica indiana edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ottomenu where can get heard about ottomenu which should good desktop windows can anybody tell where can get should cica pub win util but not also not wustl simtel and great number other sites just post mail andreas gloege kazmaierstr bei klarmann muenchen email gloege informatik muenchen
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	rfd comp databases access this official rfd for the creation new newsgroup for the general discussion the microsoft access rdms name comp databases access moderation unmoderated this time need for moderator has been assertained future evaluation will determine one needed purpose access new rdbms for the windows operating system includes wysiwyg design tools for easy creation tables reports forms and queries and database programming language called access basic the purpose the group will provide help people who use access wysiwyg design tools create simple databases well people who use access basic create complex databases rationale eventhough access new rdbms very popular because its graphical development enviroment and its initial low price been version product means that all access users are novices for that reason newsgroup needed where access users can discuss their experiences with the product and answer each other questions napoleon mau herky uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm truetype which choose for true effects for windows games max washington edu writes article apr seas gwu edu lai seas gwu edu william lai writes article gev gabriel keele csd keele yearsley writes just bought which came with bundle lotus stuff including adobe type manager version newcomer windows confused about which should using atm truetype there program called true effects for windows that allows you define attributes for true type fonts and have them look like new fonts will give your font different backgrounds shadows reverse etc only works with fonts yes and the idea was ripped off from adobe which has had program called typealign for few years now typealign does the same thing for adobe type fonts and adobe has said that the next version will work with both adobe type and truetype and typealign does some things that trueeffects does not including some things you apparently want you want use you best not want use with atm type font yeah lest you think this really cool program none the effects are scalable like the brick background pattern the same size whether your font point point and not extensible you can not add pattern your own and you can rorate the background pattern and you can make the pattern extend beyond one character every character that new font has the entire pattern opposed having the same pattern run contiguously through couple characters however cheap maybe will buy copy when the next version comes out they fix some these gripes john
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mirosoft office package charge purchasing some computer software for small office and have few question about microsoft office pack was wondering are the programs that are packaged with the office pack winword power point excel and ccmail complete and the latest addition are the programs hobbled any way can update single programs latter date from excel excel you receive all the necessary disks and documentation there anything that should aware that makes the office package less deal that seems sorry seem skeptical put the price for the office package the street sounds like great deal for the office that purchasing its first computer and software but all four complete programs for less than makes just little suspicious maybe its just thanks for your help advance kirt wilson northwestern university internet kwilson casbah acns nwu edu bitnet kwilson casbah
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos doublespace stacker okay just the title suggest okay that havne got dos yet but heart doublespace less tight than stacker what are disadvantage advantages doing that any comments will appreciated martin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	amipro deskjet printing problem tom belmonte tbelmont feds prime com wrote hello recently tried print some envelopes using amipro with deskjet printer and seem having problem what happens after physically load the envelope into the printer per the user manual and then select the print envelope icon from amipro all the proper options have been selected the printer just spits out the envelope without any printing either return address the selected mailing address this point the printer online light begins flash and the print manager shows the printer job busy this all that happens until either shut the printer off cancel the printing job from the print manager have also tried this without the use the print manager with similar results amipro shows the printer being busy does anybody have any idea solution regarding this problem appreciate the help thanks yes ignore the manual just insert the evelope don use the keypad move the windows driver sends message the printer that tells load the envelope already loaded gets ejected and the printer tries load another the instructions the manual are for dumb dos apps that don send the load envelople message tom belmonte bob taylor vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winbench help graphics comparison article pqd hinnbmi zephyr grace cri srg sir grv grace cri writes article zogd news udel edu swyatt bach udel edu stephen wyatt writes have question about winbench labs thing have and ahead card and got these results windows vga driver million ahead driver winmarks windows svga driver million winmarks was thinking about upgrading diamond card read had about million winmark mhz ram winbench very careful with these results recall numbers from winbench are calculated differently from and these figures are not comparable however answer stephen question replacing the ahead card with diamond will yield cost effective dramatic speed increase for windows that the ati graphics ultra plus greg franklin franklig gas uug arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winbench col com devilbiss writes jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware writes there any ftp site that carries winbench results for different graphics cards excel xls format what the latest version winbench and how they differ the source available and has anybody try port window least way that will make comparisons possible ftp cica indiana edu pub win misc winadv zip writeup steve gibson infoworld with winbench and number other benchmark results for nine isa and four vlb video cards this very current upload and likely have any card you currently giving serious consideration not xls format latest version winbench that know ver believe they try maintain the same rating scale between versions and new versions are released defeat the lastest coding tricks put driver programmers beat the benchmarks don know the last one and why they are considering using winbench test they may want read everything steve gibson has said the subject his infoworld column the past couple month short virtually every board manufacturer cheats the test writing things the driver that there only make the board appear faster the winbench suite the winbench score has bearing reality how cards stack real world tasks the last magazine they benchmarked some the new accelerators and admitted that many them cheated winbench interestingly they allowed one type cheating behaviour caching for bitblt operations matter how unreal yet did not allow couple other types cheating behaviour that some the cards used least one card was eliminated from the editor choice because cheating the benchmark devilbiss col com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	microsoft windows really and ope article agate berkeley edu neff garnet berkeley edu stephen kearney writes apparently not many people complain about the confusion that results from the filemanager progman split just basic flaw have one thing say why does everyone say that spliting them such bad thing actually like program launcher and file manager seperate make things easier figure out mean take look wps flames personally hate cause just have too much trouble figuring out how simple things like file copy and don say just drag the icon cause hate icons the first place have too much trouble telling what all those little push buttons mean want ile opy etc although know the minority swyatt brahms udel edu disclaimer blame everything someone else
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winbench everyone cheating there any tests that run some macro load huge drawing etc the same machine that might then tell what the real world results are mean run the tests the same machine with different video cards running word excel something like that see how fast the cards are swyatt brahms udel edu disclaimer blame everything someone else
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse com com windows article jyf bcstec boeing com isbell bcstec boeing com robert isbell writes jpaparel ulowell edu joseph paparella writes having problem configuring the mouse windows use com with irq com and com are being used support two hour bbs lines there you com and com use the same irq therefore you can use mouse com and modem com vice versa limitation dos and fact windows will not see mouse anything other than com com accept this fact and either get bus mouse get new computer would also like know possible use the mouse ports other than com com the advice above applies greg franklin franklig gas uug arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ami pro and equation mode nagel ucsu colorado edu kurt nagel writes having problem with amipro when writing equations the equation extends past certain point line the whole thing disappears then try delete the equation cursor beyond the equation ami goes nuts the line counter the bottom the screen increments repeatedly and the only way out ctrl atl del have been unfortunate enough save document with one these screwed equations the document basically trashed although have been able fix them going into ascii editor and deleteing large chunks the document has anyone else experienced this does lotus know about and have patch thanks advance kurt nagel fido colorado edu contacted lotus about this problem today has been reported previously and there fix apparantly the problem only occurs when tab characters are used immediately preceding the equation frame the work around when equations are expected touch the right margin delete least one preceding tab and use space align the frame use set frame where placed text wrap around unforutnately once the page run has occured you are hosed the moral the story use only space characters align equation frames hope this helps the rest you who have already contacted with this problem kurt nagel fido colorado edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hercules graphite has anyone used hercules graphite adapter looks good paper and steve gibson gave very good review infoworld love get real world impression though how the speed drivers support looking for something replace this ati ultra with tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners your mouth now pull that how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	does dos defragment article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes well the subject saysit all does dos defragmentation yes both dblspaced and non dblspaced drives can defragmented believe they use norton speedisk brian mcgloin lift your glasses friend with mine ncr corp and raise your hand with usg iss ols england stole ireland spent miamisburg outlawed rapparee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse com com windows jpaparel ulowell edu joseph paparella writes having problem configuring the mouse windows use com with irq don believe irq the problem tried mouse com irq the usual place and still did not like simply windows seems only support mice com com the funny part though that microsoft own mouse driver was quite happy with mouse sitting com why can windows use the mouse driver least support com com irq com irq com irq maxcomport tried this too actually wanted able use second modem com irq from windows still will not talk that modem created two profiles amstrad for amstrad modem com irq and maestro for maestro com irq will not talk the maestro all that their driver does not support com and com windows their suggestion was that the microsoft setting windows setup would work does not nor here windows can not believe that not possible worst you would need special version mouse driver that looked com and com instead com and com know that irq and irq are normally printer port irqs but seen nothing like that experimented with logitech mouse driver too with sucess have printers attached side note that would really like assign com some higher irq because soundblaster board uses irq right now not using com but modem that know allows settings other than irqs and you have soundblaster pro should support irq well finally board that supports irqs the only one have except ide controller hamish hamish moffatt hamish cloud apana org apana the australian public cloud nine bbs fidonet access network association melbourne australia intlnet mail info apana org titanic software voice for information
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	version control for mac and lan have lan where are doing development product for multiple platforms for the moment are only working mac and dos windows the department has always used sneaker net transport files the mac since requires filter strip out the characters until recently one concidered using any version control mediate and result the programmers spent great deal time merging files together the end each week that new system could build are now trying streamline this process but are hampered the lack software that will allow share files across and mac platforms understand that pvcs used this but that they longer support the mac product anyone know why polytron have seen people ask about development multiple platforms assume that ours not new problem who has had deal with what solutions have you come with thanks advance for any and all suggestions via posting email there are enough email responses then will post synopsis the knowledge charles emmons charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services charles trintex uunet net mine alone unless white plains voice you would like prodigy kjrd fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	file downloading beginer just wonder how transfer files from the sun system which the network home not connected the network tried use comit but was very slow and seemed that getting multiple files the same time was impossible could anybody give some hints infomation thank you advance liu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk comp windows misc you write while reading through the dos book states that the windows permanaent swap file will not work correctly when placed compressed drive make things compatable removed permanent swap file before starting the upgrade however when all the dust settled and into windows says that the temporary swap file right where always was the windows directory question how come the temporary swap files works with compressed drive and the permanent one doesn you might want look windows faq for this one but here best explanation but can guarantee that not way off base the permenant swap file read written windows talking directly the hard disk controller card the controller card must use the protocal set western digital something like that windows creates file called spart par your windows directory that points that file then uses the physical information about your disk index information that file compressed disks are actually logical disks these disks have different characteristics than the actual physical disk furthermore the information the compressed disks must uncompressed before used must through the decompression program that traps disk reads the operating system level the bios level because this inbetween program windows cannot use direct methods read from the logical disk permenant swap file only there reserve area the disk that windows can use and block that space from dos windows would theoretically not even have access the file from dos use that disk space don know does doesn but checks for somewhere everytime you boot windows temporary swap file just normal dos file that accessed windows via dos and the bios disk compression program other tsr loaded the file access must through dos tsr disk compression and bios order access never use temporary swap file never more permenent swap files sure everyone who has uncompressed part their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested you wan create this swap file anyway something like that well friend mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said that windows checks the amount free disk space and divides that number then checks for the largest contiguous block free disk space windows then suggests the smaller the two numbers they also said that under absolutely circumstances none will windows uses swap file larger than the suggested size well that what said call bull this true why does windows report the memory available not going use any takers james this doesn get the net will someone post for thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with winqvt this the qvthost file the host file requires the names that you using addition the address sucb name server name name router name carols ohsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hercules graphite article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used hercules graphite adapter looks good paper and steve gibson gave very good review infoworld love get real world impression though how the speed drivers support the world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated when and you get one send mail might buy that ati off you iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with winqvt swartzjh nextwork rose hulman edu jeff swartz writes when use name such rosevc rose hulman edu initiating nameserver query for rosevc nameserver query time out when use the number local host gateway not responding know the nameserver correct and the router correct they work fine using ncsa telnet ftp they are working but your definitions qvtnet ini and qvthost are incorrect see below the docs said you are running concurrent packet software you need load pktmux does this apply don think you are using qvtnet and novell concurrently aren you they use different packet types qvtnet tcp and novell ipx spx should able coexist just fine pktmux required you are using different tcp packages concurrently this the qvthost file there the first problem you didn specify hostnames just addresses your file should look like this name your nameserver name your router this the beginning the winqvt ini file net name swartzjh test rose hulman edu here you should only specify your hostname without the domain part router instead use router name your router specified your qvthost know the release notes for say that addresses should work also but apparently they don nameserver here too you should use the hostname the nameserver instead the address worked fine for that way although could not specify more than one nameserver the relnotes say should possible specify three nameservers separated commas but didn work hope helps richard richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows general questions article heimdall sdrc com crgruen sony sdrc com robert gruen writes received amish utilities for windows when purchased turbo for windows what amish utilities what can for all received was the disk docs maybe milks the dogcow running windows mode using driver that was supplied with svga card the card boca svga card with meg ram and think has chip least thats what some program tells the driver old driver that was written for windows seems work fine but would gain any benefits switching newer driver which one should use and where could find lots drivers are available off ftp cica indiana edu pub win drivers video tried two cview zip and turbo zip these give you choice turbo and non turbo drivers the turbo drivers were fast but caused mouse problems with machine which has diamond speedstar card finally got turbo drivers wndspeed binar from diamond amazing blazingly fast for non accelerated card and best all gpf for month iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fall comdex does anyone out there have any info the and coming fall comdex was asked one peers get any info that might available could anyone point the right direction any help would appreciated dave stevens dls psuvm psu edu training and multimedia services dls psuvm penn state university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	using microsoft foundation classes with borland thanks for the info assume that this for mfc does anyone know this will work with mfc what else needs done thanks andy jacobs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how fix word subscript spacing have problem when using subscripts with msword the problem the subscripted characters get cut off the display but print out anyone know how fix the subscripts can see them the screen many thanks howard howard moy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	character codes problems help working project that involves using text with foreign language characters this case norwegian have been manipulating the data with excell and then exporting the data comma seperated variable files workstation the norwegian characters show fine under windows but appear funny characters the workstation the workstation setup for national language support and have problem entering the norwegian characters from the workstation keyboard further investigation found that the character codes used windows are different for these characters than those specified the msdos code page the msdos codes seem the same the workstation what gives and how can get around please reply mail will out the office the next few days and will not reading the news thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	faster oak vga drivers using oak based vga card computer downloaded the driver from ftp cica indiana edu and had good luck with however does anyone know faster driver available for this card thanks mike michael mccollister phone harris corporation email box mmccolli ess harris com mailstop palm bay florida not going say anything stupid today not
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word help hello having problems printing spanish characters with wfw was using the celtic true type which has the accented characters and used insert symbol put the document however when put the doc get big square character and then prints out just the same dismay thinking that was just the way worked can anyone tell and how they have printed spanish characters know has this built but not recall ever seeing this option wfw help robert dubinski aliases include robb regal sir and marquette university math computer science double major internet address dubinski vms csd edu milwaukee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	there any documentation for microsoft diagnostics found what believe undocumented feature windows directory microsoft diagnostics ver specifically interested more depth explanation the legends the memory mapping report thanks chak chakaw washington edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript view for dos windows been using version ghostscript and quite satisfied with there are actually versions plain dos version version and windows version harvey stein hjstein math huji
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	multiple desktops article bht news hawaii edu dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu don mcgee writes there free share ware package that will allow multiple desktops windows what desired have desk top for several people that each can personalize name and choice programs etc there package called workspace cica that has desktops haven done much with yet but seems able what you want don have the exact archive name handy but something like wspace blah zip tom finn convex com speak only for myself peace the name the ideal have deduced from the fact that there have been pauses between wars jerry pournelle the mercenary
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	rfd comp databases access this the reguest for discussion rfd for the creation comp databases access the discussion period started april and will last until april days this official rfd for the creation new newsgroup for the general discussion the microsoft access rdms name comp databases access moderation unmoderated this time need for moderator has been assertained future evaluation will determine one needed purpose access new rdbms for the windows operating system includes wysiwyg design tools for easy creation tables reports forms and queries and database programming language called access basic the purpose the group will provide help people who use access wysiwyg design tools create simple databases well people who use access basic create complex databases rationale eventhough access new rdbms very popular because its graphical development enviroment and its initial low price been version product means that all access users are novices for that reason newsgroup needed where access users can discuss their experiences with the product and answer each other questions napoleon mau herky uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted dialog box select file for dos apps looking for program that will let use windows common dialog box select file use when running dos app basically have several dos apps that use now and then with different files they all accept file command line parameter but the only way least that know this easily when running them from windows set the pif file that prompts for additional parameters which point type the file name problems are sometimes can remember where the file exactly located and would nice browse directories for without having use the file manager and lazy and hate type long pathnames for files burried several directory levels deep anyone can point such program let know some other way handle this appreciate thanks tim the net isn organized enough considered anarchy reczek autarch acsu buffalo edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what two part question what windows real windows this past weekend local hacker radio show metioned new product from microsoft called chicago recall anyone know what this that thanks heap alan alan olson swanson environmental inc mail alanchem csd csd uwm edu alan alchemy chem uwm edu want some good music check out milwaukee own bodeans
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	copy move files file manager article tsf murdoch acc virginia edu rsc orion lib virginia edu scott crittenden writes understanding that copy files from one directory another the same drive file manager using mouse you hold down the ctrl key while dragging the file from one directory window the other this works for about the time the other the file gets moved rather than copied anybody else encountered this tried respond email but all attempts bounced the condition the ctrl key before you press the mouse button makes difference whatsoever you have holding the ctrl key when you release the mouse button you want force copy operation here simple experiment select file and begin drag ctrl key notice that the file icon disappears from the listing window now watch what happens that icon you press and release the ctrl key keeping the mouse button pressed all the while addition the icon that you are dragging will show while you are holding the ctrl key indicating that the file being copied rather than moved bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows have you tried installing the software otherwise would dubious about simple ways change that screen not designed embarassment would pirates charles charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services charles trintex uunet net mine alone unless white plains voice you would like prodigy kjrd fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	multiple desktops article bht news hawaii edu dmcgee uluhe soest hawaii edu don mcgee writes there free share ware package that will allow multiple desktops windows what desired have desk top for several people that each can personalize name and choice programs etc amishware has one included their package they were advertising here the net couple weeks ago with riduculously that good way ted low price does anyone remember what was charles emmons charles trintex uucp these opinions are prodigy services charles trintex uunet net mine alone unless white plains voice you would like prodigy kjrd fax share them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows article apr trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com writes have you tried installing the software otherwise would dubious about simple ways change that screen not designed embarassment would pirates ahh yes this fun topic once the name incribed the disk that encoded not even hex editor will find you can write over the licensed but you can change the name underneth think you wish change this you would have pirate and not going promote that here robert dubinski aliases include robb regal sir and marquette university math computer science double major internet address dubinski vms csd edu milwaukee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ghostscript for win fonts servis author ecn purdue edu brian servis writes that just downloaded the windows ghostscript package gswin zip ini zip from ftp when load file says cant find font and substitutes font called ugly substituting for basic fonts such helv and cour would imagine that these fonts are included its font library there something doing wrong missing these ugly fonts are not very clear and well defined sharpness etc basically they are ugly any advice welcome realize have get the font files from some ftp site found them cica but now have another question are the zip fonts compatible with gswin please email brian servis servis author ecn purdue edu happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what say may not what think what say may not the pedestrian had idea which what purdue thinks way ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond win mouse cursor anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond driver sorry don know the version the driver indication the menus but recently delivered gateway system going try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered anyone else had seen this post email don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro drivers does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hercules graphite article jbkf usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used hercules graphite adapter looks good paper and steve gibson gave very good review infoworld love get real world impression though how the speed drivers support the world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded think was the iit people who make the chip the card based who hard coded the string one the weeklies looked into this came the conclusion that the iit chip was still pretty fast winbench text into the driver clever any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated when and you get one send mail might buy that ati off you iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems have normal procomm plus for dos but been considering buying the windows version got really great reviews computer shopper have friend who connects the mainframe and unix machines here using but the screen seems have problem keeping with the modem has modem mhz machine can see having trouble keeping his pcplus for dos works great but the windows just seems always screw this common and there fix something just screwed with his machine kent
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quattro pro file format are trying write program which can read files created quattro pro and above would anyone know where find information regarding the format which quattro pro stores its files thanks advance mahesh famous dummies madam tussade wax museum still case msk cwru edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gui application frameworks for windows hello investigating the purchase object oriented application framework have come across few that look good zapp from inmark zinc from zinc software views from liant win from blaise some considerations using being new windows programming from the unix world the quality and intuitivness the abstraction that these class libraries provide very important however since not adverse learning the internals windows programming the new programming methodology should closely aligned with the native one don believe arbitrary levels abstraction just for the sake changing the api are valuable since will developing for the bit windows system the memory management issues and issues particular the windows api are less important will probably buy another class library something like tools booch components from rational handle data structures and other miscellaneous stuff allocators etc those features are not that important for this toolkit have the two that have narrowed down are zapp and zinc they seem the two toolkits that have received the most attention from the media was wondering anyone had any first hand experience with any these toolkits especially zapp and zinc couple observations about these toolkits that seem particularly noteworthy are zapp seems have the most extensive coverage windows functionality and also includes some other miscellaneous useful classes has new fancy style controls available and support for custom controls has windows version essential redirectable graphics display output architecture useful for printing sizer class for automatically managing control layout after resize seems the newcomer this could advantage designing better system zinc has platform independent resource strategy not too important for right now comes with interface builder tool has windows version essential seems have been around longer more mature but grew out dos version had better demo both have source code availability options both are lacking ole support neither seem have any particular support for multimedia type stuff any thoughts anyone has this would much appreciated thanks brett harper brett harper cimlinc com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu james dean barwick writes more permenent swap files sure everyone who has uncompressed part their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested you wan create this swap file anyway something like that well friend mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said that windows checks the amount free disk space and divides that number then checks for the largest contiguous block free disk space windows then suggests the smaller the two numbers they also said that under absolutely circumstances none will windows uses swap file larger than the suggested size well that what said call bull this true why does windows report the memory available not going use think the support droid was malfunctioning and confused the disk space limit with the virtual address space limit far the disk concerned you are limited only the amount contiguous free space the limit that causes the message windows will only use the amount virtual address space that the virtual memory manager will create and this function the amount free memory that you have when windows starts the enh section system ini you can specify parameter pageovercommit multiplier the following description from the windows resource kit this entry specifies the multiplier what determines the amount linear address space the vmm will create for the system which computed rounding the amount available physical memory the nearest and then multiplying that value the value specified for pageovercommit increasing this value increases the amount available linear address space causing the size data structures increase this also increases paging activity proportionately and can slow down the system you can specify value between and the default change this entry you must edit system ini bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what previous article alanchem csd csd uwm edu alan scott olson wrote two part question what windows real windows this past weekend local hacker radio show metioned new product from microsoft called chicago recall anyone know what this that thanks heap alan windows giant windows operating system unline win does not run top dos its own with billy gates assures true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs well dos programs has multi processor support and primarily server program overhead too high for economical for most users speaking overhead requires least with megs ram iwll run with but that like running with megs and that just run also have heard that the system files take megs and recommended that your drive half gig the skd distributed rom chicogo what want use like true with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that okay since will probably more client there are few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was article about chicogo week last august the chicogo and development groups micro oft are intense competition said however think different relationship will arise will the server etowrk echonology chicogo will the client machine entirely possible for different work together partly because chicogo just small think that way anyway novell netware creates the server that truly not dos don scorn the concept anyway don expect soon windows and dos are supposed released next year read see expect that chicogo won out til with luck proven wrong rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows this relation question concerning changing the registered information windows previous article dubinski vms csd edu wrote ahh yes this fun topic once the name incribed the disk that encoded not even hex editor will find you can write over the licensed but you can change the name underneth can find with hex editor although have not tried overwrite are you sure can you may mistaken about this rob rmohns vax clarku edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fall comdex dls psuvm psu edu wrote does anyone out there have any info the and coming fall comdex was asked one peers get any info that might available could anyone point the right direction any help would appreciated las vegas always between november and for more information contact the interface group first avenue needham sorry phone number available consult directory service massachusetts for the number willy ville walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu james dean barwick writes stuff deleted more permenent swap files sure everyone who has uncompressed part their compressed hard disk has seen the message you have selected swap file greater than the suggested size windows will only use the size suggested you wan create this swap file anyway something like that well friend mine robert called microsoft and asked them what and why what they said that windows checks the amount free disk space and divides that number then checks for the largest contiguous block free disk space windows then suggests the smaller the two numbers they also said that under absolutely circumstances none will windows uses swap file larger than the suggested size well that what said call bull this true why does windows report the memory available not going use any takers james well someone microsoft told you wrong windows will use swap file larger than the recommended size last summer went microsoft windows technical workshop and they distributed lot information that the general public might not aware anyway the main book they handed out they have section creating larger than recommended swapfile quote the information you create permanent swapfile larger than the recommended size you will receive message telling you that windows will not use anything larger than the recommended size this error message incorrect will allow the use the larger swapfile four times the amount ram your machine you see microsoft does know that the information incorrect you probably just ran into some doofball who was new the job and was only telling you what little knew that what may would really suggest everyone take the opportunity these technical workshops they aren actually incredibly depth but you get lot material about bugs and optimization straight from those the know besides that they offer you huge discounts software remember correctly you could pick word excel whatever their presentation program for that the full blown version not upgrade educational version you could also pick microsoft office for something like that myself sprang for word well hope that was helpful someone and besides that hope someone will workshop and save little money and anyone microsoft reading this really love your products need job once graduate also can work something out thanks brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro drivers article jldc news cso uiuc edu jroberts cso uiuc edu robertson writes does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks the latest driver release and can found ftp cica indiana edu the pub win directory structure pro zip checked with ati bbs last nite and there were releases past have the ati local bus card and noticed that get garbage around the edges window when move has anybody else noticed this also tom thomas fisk internet fisk mayo edu mayo clinic you don know where voice first street you going you never fax mail stop stm get there rochester
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help bitmaps wonder anyone can tell whether not can create bitmap any size followed the bitmap creation example sdk manual and specified bitmap set the width height and supplied byte string with chars but just cannot get the right bitmap image changed the width height and used the same value string padded with zero byets make the right size and got the image the example the manual size which are multiple bytes can you define bitmap image any size thanks very much chen chen citr chen centre for information technology research university queensland australia chen citr tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gui application frameworks for windows look zapp and really liked however think you should wait for version think will out soon mike maley maley umn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speedstar vga card win drivers these drivers updated are available directly from diamond they will even ship them you charge least they did for
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	permanent swap file previous article mlipsie rdm std com mike lipsie mpu says article yfd sunfish usd edu pwiseman salmon usd edu cliff writes your swap file purged every time you exit windows you shut off your computer without exiting windows your swap file remains the large side are you running more applications than you really need the same time this course not true the temporary swap file purged every time you exit windows the permanent file permanent and can only changed adjusting the virtual memory suspect that either the original poster was tinkering and adjusted the swap file and then forgot about somebody helped him mike lipsie work mlipsie merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp when first setup windows using the self load mode grabbed about megs swap file space meg was nearly empty that time deleted windows for time and recently reloaded now nearly full and windows just took megs have read somewhere that the best rule thumb have your permanent swap file the same size your regular ram size have megs ram and windows took meg perm swap file works very well fact with available space about megs won let make the swap file any bigger you should change your virtual mem swap file megs think that what you said your ram was artin this communication sent artin university arizona tucson cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems article qkqrhinnobc matt ksu ksu edu kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent iler writes have friend who connects the mainframe and unix machines here using but the screen seems have problem keeping with the modem has modem mhz machine tell him probably needs upgrade faster video card baud modem was one the reasons sought out the diamond speedstar get about million winmarks and just about keeps with the modem speed using procomm plus for windows too should get over million his machine with the same card anything should yield acceptable speed jeff meyers jmeyers ecst csuchico edu chico dis nocal usa grid
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what regload exe perusing through windows directory came across file called regload exe assume this part the registration database but neither windows manual win resource kit nor mag description files the windows directory had reference least not one that could find does regedit exe use way off base peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu preferred pgoudswa cln etc pgoudswa cue there gift like the present goudswaard observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	page setup notepad apr cbnewsh att com krh cbnewsh att com writes often use notepad view and print read type files often find myself rushing get print manager stop the printer and delete the file from the print queue because forgotten reset the print margins from inches left and right inches the resulting printed text looks all chopped because the hard returns the source file struggled with the margin problem for ages well until finally got hold the shareware binary editor beav and dug into notepad exe there setup facility force notepad default margins hardwired into code search for then change the offending bytes viola who are the guys who hardcode these options anyway interested whether the problem only rears ugly head for certain printers using old epson that never can remember aloha
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	panasonic driver does anyone out there know there are print drivers for windows for the panasonic pin dot matrix printer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows write over the licensed but you can change the name underneth think you wish change this you would have pirate and not going promote that here not computer was supplied with name interesting mix upper and lower case and workplace mis typed getting fed with being cmyearsley keel unversity took phone calls the supplier get the computer working all really can face tackling them again chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with winqvt had similar problem try changing the netmask tommy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone using video for windows suggestion would contact microsoft about the video windows sdk you would need call developer services extension from pacific time
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	driver for panasonic greetings looking pro win printer driver for the panasonic laser printer not sure about the order the first letters the name but the numbers are right and they are important have found drivers for panasonic printers and but think there should drivers available where the model included grateful for any help kjell hut kjell niksula hut kjell vipunen hut
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what article apr vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu says previous article alanchem csd csd uwm edu alan scott olson wrote two part question what windows real windows this past weekend local hacker radio show metioned new product from microsoft called chicago recall anyone know what this that thanks heap alan windows giant windows operating system unline win does not run top dos its own with billy gates assures true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs well dos programs has multi processor support and primarily server program overhead too high for economical for most users also runs character based apps and posix apps the dos bit and bit windows apps run windows bit subsystem you consider the fact that has the lanman redirectors built support for tcp built support for netbeui comes with tcp utils like ping and ftp client etc applications like schedule and bit version msmail the storage argument isnt issue speaking overhead requires least with megs ram iwll run with but that like running with megs and that just run also have heard that the system files take megs and recommended that your drive half gig the skd distributed rom ran with mram and did ton disk swapping with virtual memory paging file functioned but crawled this was the oct build upgraded the machine and the performance good that point installed the march build consider they are probably still working the feature set and havent done lot fine tuning the code yet chicogo what want use like true with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that okay since will probably more client there are few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was article about chicogo week last august the chicogo and development groups micro oft are intense competition said however think different relationship will arise will the server etowrk echonology chicogo will the client machine entirely possible for different work together partly because chicogo just small think that way anyway novell netware creates the server that truly not dos don scorn the concept anyway don expect soon windows and dos are supposed released next year read see expect that chicogo won out til have little info chicago cant make comparison beta there anyone out there who has tested both and cares make comparison just aln
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what have little info chicago cant make comparison beta there anyone out there who has tested both and cares make comparison just aln chicago from what have read projected run and higher definitely aimed the desktop rumored offer preemptive multitasking multithreading but will not offer multiprocessing bit and reliance dos rumored have integrated file and program manager dos rumored similar chicago but without the gui also step towards cairo the next generation which rumored object oriented wonder where windows fits here stepping stone chicago hope this helps thx dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what rmohns vax clarku edu writes chicogo what want use like true with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that okay since will probably more client there are few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was article about chicogo week last august the chicogo and development groups micro oft are intense competition said however think different relationship will arise will the server etowrk echonology chicogo will the client machine entirely possible for different work together partly because chicogo just small think that way anyway novell netware creates the server that truly not dos don scorn the concept anyway don expect soon windows and dos are supposed released next year read see expect that chicogo won out til how does chicago differ from the sort announced windows understand ing least from the inbfoworld accound windows that sort lite full fledged operating system but lacking server and security features that make such bear not true multithreading
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent iler writes have normal procomm plus for dos but been considering buying the windows version got really great reviews computer shopper have friend who connects the mainframe and unix machines here using but the screen seems have problem keeping with the modem has modem mhz machine can see having trouble keeping his pcplus for dos works great but the windows just seems always screw this common and there fix something just screwed with his machine kent have trouble running procomm for windows considerably slower could video problem but only has incredibly slow video
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word help from article vms csd edu dubinski vms csd edu can anyone tell and how they have printed spanish characters know has this built but not recall ever seeing this option wfw help try using the extended character set alt sequences look character map the accessories group and see the alt sequence for the font you want gregory cook internet gcook horus cem msu edu department chemistry cookgreg student msu edu michigan state university cook cemvax cem msu edu east lansing bitnet cook msucem bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need windows logo article qjqed access digex net holland access digex com brian holland writes markus maier maier rzmain uni ulm wrote well searching for the windows logo know the picture when start windows some suitable grafics format like gif jpg windows system vgalogo rle memory serves correctly rle compressed bmp format readable wingif paintshop pro paint and god knows how many other programs mike mattix agricultural group monsanto box luling internet address dmmatt bigez monsanto com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted symantec address nothing beats skiing you want have real fun during holidays rob winter philips research ist building box eindhoven the netherlands tel mail dewinter prl philips
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted address symantec looking for the exact address the symantec coporatoin which distributes norton desktop and other windows software the information looking for mail address phone number fax number mail address thanks advance nothing beats skiing you want have real fun during holidays rob winter philips research ist building box eindhoven the netherlands tel mail dewinter prl philips
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows article apr vax clarku edu rmohns vax clarku edu writes this relation question concerning changing the registered information windows previous article dubinski vms csd edu wrote ahh yes this fun topic once the name incribed the disk that encoded not even hex editor will find you can write over the licensed but you can change the name underneth can find with hex editor although have not tried overwrite are you sure can you may mistaken about this you can change part continuously downsizing government organization code branch changes about once year just finished changing the registration information using norton utilities sent the original requester the hex offset into user exe containing the information and his reply indicated got several similar answers and not encoded any way for the legality there nothing that keeps from changing the information certainly doesn reach out and alter the serial number printed the inside manual jim moore panama city
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gui application frameworks for windows article apr cimlinc uucp bharper cimlinc uucp brett harper writes hello investigating the purchase object oriented application framework have come across few that look good zinc has platform independent resource strategy not too important for right now brett harper cimlinc com just thought resources very important you use multiplatform toolkit check how uses resources have used glockenspeil commonview under motif and wrote resource converter from motif but really wasn too easy especially the naming scheme motif you cannot rename controls widgets with windows you can call the button every instance this doesn work for motif you have call dialog and motif expects text string rather than number your constructor should know how convert define into the proper resource identifier check how the toolkit expects names and that does use resources that uses resources for all platforms you intend port the way would never use commonview glockenspiel for anything alex alex colburn image analysis facility university iowa colburn tessa iaf uiowa edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hercules graphite article jbkf usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used hercules graphite adapter looks good paper and steve gibson gave very good review infoworld love get real world impression though how the speed drivers support the world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated but the impressive performance the graphite was not its winmark was its wintach result esp the paint performance judging from the wintach tests can hardly imagine that there cheat driver for agus budy wuysang digitech student monash university clayton melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond win mouse cursor article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond driver sorry don know the version the driver indication the menus but recently delivered gateway system going try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered anyone else had seen this followup this worker machine has the latest drivers only happens using the driver sometimes takes minute for the cursor wig out but eventually does this mode susect something stepping memory the video card wants excluded the emm line and system ini the problem persisted perhaps something specific the gateway machine components mhz eisa bus with ultrastore controller well was hoping this was some kind known problem somebody had seen before perhaps call gateway order but find folks here usually are far more the know don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what article qmc access digex net wild access digex com wildstrom writes from wild access digex com wildstrom subject win what date apr much stuff deleted what win upgraded mathcad and installed directory for win under windows system during the upgrade told that win was required
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems you have lot more problems keeping with hardware interrupts windows than dos regardless what communication software you are using try the following turn off disk write cache for the disk you are downloading the cache will save much that when grabs control the machine takes too long write disk and you loose characters use different uart for your serial line the old uart can only buffer one character internally the new uart can buffer which should plenty for most situations you can run windows msd exe find out what uart the machine ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what rmohns vax clarku edu writes windows giant windows operating system unline win does not run top dos its own with billy gates assures true multi tasking multithreading meets dod security specs will run win programs well dos programs has multi processor support and primarily server program overhead too high for economical for most users correction all billy promising that will run most windows programs and the major dos programs not expect everything you have run under unless all you have are current apps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how make ghostscript work what files need download for ghostscript have never used ghostscript before don have any files for what have win zip which downloaded from cica unfortunately doesn seem work own but needs some more files that don have want run ghostscript both windows and dos understand there versions for both environments what are all the files need download and where can get them any info would appeciated steve brewer rewerb evets ulkyvx louisville edu ude ellivsiuol xvyklu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows keeps crashing please help the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh gpf late was never very stable package but now seems crash every day the worst part about that does not crash consistently can reproduce crashes and they are not always gpf the same application sometimes can recover simply closing the application that caused error but other times windows acts very strange and need boot some background have leading edge with phoenix bios when first got had memory ran windows fine not too many gpf then couple weekends ago installed lotus for windows with atm game card and additional simms the leading edge machine kind strange that has the ide controler built into the motherboard the cpu actually sparate board that plugs into the motherboard and the simms uses are macintosh simms apparently was told that the leading edge had the parity bit built into the mother board the original simms where the chip variety from samsung and the ones installed are chip simms they are recognized fine the bios ram check the game card generic gamecard the reason why mention the hardware like this that sometimes rebooting the machine using the reset button ctl alt del still leaves the machine kind flaky but turning and off doesn haven tried taking out the ram the game card because said these gpf are not reproducible will have gone through and entire day using the computer with problems and then might get gpf the sppace minutes what can this situation most annoying are there any good diagnostic tools for hardware you think that this might software problem emm etc helps have manage get gpf after dark quicken paint shop pro lot them have been user exe gdi exe any help truly appreciated eric ebosco oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	permanaent swap file with dos dbldisk stuff deleted that what may would really suggest everyone take the opportunity these technical workshops they aren actually incredibly depth but you get lot material about bugs and optimization straight from those the know besides that they offer you huge discounts software remember correctly you could pick word excel whatever their presentation program for that the full blown version not upgrade educational version you could also pick microsoft office for something like that myself sprang for word the value these workshops aside you ought able buy full copies all this software through your campus bookstore software distributor these rates not aware that the educational version word excel doped down any way well hope that was helpful someone and besides that hope someone will workshop and save little money and anyone microsoft reading this really love your products need job once graduate also can work something out thanks brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu david farley the university chicago library east street jrl dgf midway uchicago edu chicago illinois
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	permanent swap file article qlja usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu martin linsenbigler writes when first setup windows using the self load mode grabbed about megs swap file space meg was nearly empty that time deleted windows for time and recently reloaded now nearly full and windows just took megs one the rules for permanent swap file that must contiguous non fragmented space suspect that more responsible for the difference than the amount free disk your case have read somewhere that the best rule thumb have your permanent swap file the same size your regular ram size have megs ram and windows took meg perm swap file works very well fact with available space about megs won let make the swap file any bigger you should change your virtual mem swap file megs think that what you said your ram was depends what you are running had increase our swap file think now when some applications couldn run without everything else closed mike lipsie work mlipsie merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted address symantec dewinter prl philips rob winter writes looking for the exact address the symantec coporatoin which distributes norton desktop and other windows software the information looking for mail address phone number fax number mail address try postmaster norton com postmaster symantec com thanks advance nothing beats skiing you want have real fun during holidays rob winter philips research ist building box eindhoven the netherlands tel mail dewinter prl philips ken lam network administrator university charleston dept biology geology space grant consortium fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cirrus logic graph card after setting windows for using cirrus logic vlb graphicscard moved normal window from one place another parameters where just the following vlb the card equipped with dram not vram there are sockets for vram and the moving the window just looked like looked friends and normal isa what was wondering why not using the bitblt engine which suuposed the chip how are the experiences here have done something wrong installed the mswin multiresolution drivers which where supplied with the card would nice somebody could tell about his experience with this card also there are new hopefully faster drrivers around would love how get hold them ftp whatsoever gruss wolfgang
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent iler writes have normal procomm plus for dos but been considering buying the windows version got really great reviews computer shopper have friend who connects the mainframe and unix machines here using but the screen seems have problem keeping with the modem has modem mhz machine can see having trouble keeping his pcplus for dos works great what after the high speed modem arrives edition apr this article applies only windows and and not dos apps not running under windows one the unadvertised limitations most current windows pcs that their serial com performance seriously deficient almost everyone who purchases high speed modem bis pep hst discovers the problem the first time they try download file accept incoming fax after upgrading the modem overrun and retry errors abound even when the only active application the datacomm fax program the transfer completes all may take even longer than with the old bps modem there are three reasons for the problem the universal asynchronous receiver transmitters uarts used most pcs are primitive devices with single byte fifo buffers the operating system driver cannot read and flush each character high interrupt rates the next incoming character overwrites the fifo and the previous one lost dos being fairly single minded environment during datacomm can usually keep windows can windows has more operating system overhead than plain dos and interrupts often take longer service overruns are much more likely than under dos soon you report your modem vendor that you are losing data you may advised that you need upgrade more likely since there seems conspiracy ignorance about this issue you get useful advice all most the store front and mail order sources spoke with attempting solve own problem had never heard the term and many didn even know what uart was even your has uarts and you can upgrade your mother com board add new com board you may still experience errors and overruns because the standard microsoft windows com drivers don take full advantage the windows improved this regard over but still recommend driver upgrade applications like procomm win which what use cannot get around this problem themselves you have modem card you may not have problem the modem part the card can designed aware the state the uart and avoid overrunning however wouldn want bet that the card designers were that clever and will insist uart ever buy modem card some modem cards don even have conventional uarts but they are work with standard windows drivers they need simulate one use msd exe below see what the modem card pretending the hardware situation the uarts most com ports are based national semiconductor chips megacells inside vlsi chips where you can replace them you can the uart type your system running the microsoft diagnostic program windows msd exe sure run dos before bringing windows the windows serial api may prevent msd from accurately identifying you run from windows dos prompt the uart has separate byte transmit and receive fifos with configurable trigger levels and can run reliably clock rates bps although with current modem technology there point pushing your luck going over bps the has shorted access cycle times than the the also has dma capability but not clear that any drivers ever use this for more technical info see national semiconductor application note what uart component you have try locate the uart your mother board multi function card com board isa mca modem card you can find socketed component with the numbers your com ports are probably buried vlsi and you won able perform chip replacement you can disable your vlsi com ports chose you can least add aftermarket com board you have one more socketed chips you can buy plug afn low power cmos version ics from several suppliers typically for each the chip the normal pin dual line package other styles are available but avoid any chips without the the are presumably all early chips have bugs although national will reportedly exchange those their own manufacture for free clone chips are available from various makers other than national the manual for the turbocom drivers states support for the following apparently equivalent chips national semiconductor chips technology texas instruments silicon systems vlsi turbocom warns about the pre and western digital says that problems have been reported with early ibm and systems ibm reportedly will upgrade them you don have socketed chips you need buy after market com multi function board this modem card situation you may hosed add new com multi function card you need either disable the com port you are replacing assign them com although watch out for irq conflicts without turbocom although cheaper cards are available the interest getting the problem solved quickly elected buy the modular circuit technology mct aio card from jdr microdevices samaritan drive san jose voice voice other fax the mct aio and the important sells for bit isa card providing port type connector address and irq comments com com irq afn socket com ribbon com irq afn socket parallel lpt irq game ribbon the kit includes ribbon cable and connector for the secondary com port ribbon cable connector for the game port two bulkhead plates for the ribbon based connectors and adaptor cable each port can individually disabled and the com ports have rts cts dtr dcd and dsr jumpers jdr also sells super card that also has ide have heard from several people about less expensive cards with tsd systems for the card plus per greenfield trading and distributors voice fax their card one and they sell afns for data systems inc east highway longwood phone fax com lpt game card for have personal experience with any the firms except jdr meanwhile back the mct card from jdr only needed two serial ports and running out irqs disabled built vlsi based ports however with the turbocom driver below could have set the internals com and using irq sharing the software situation simply upgrading uarts will not completely solve common overrun problems the standard serial drivers don take full advantage the the windows drivers are even less capable and the windows drivers have the following limitations they enable only the receive fifo and only rates above bps they never enable the transmit fifo which results interrupt rate during uploads they set the trigger level bytes too high easy for more bytes arrive before the driver can read the fifo the ports menu the control panel only allows speeds with bis modem sparse data and text can easily compress more suggesting that host dte connect rate bps would effective the api won accept rates above cbr the api won let dos programs know there there and even did dos programs that aren aware get little benefit from port with the standard drivers they don allow irq sharing for com the bios doesn initialize com properly many systems windows provides workaround for apps that don provide port speed options above bps these problems are reportedly not solved windows dos and may may not addressed any windows releases after but before rumors suggest they may solved windows you can get replacement drivers that solve all those problems buying copy turbocom current version from bio engineering research pacific commware division beacon hill lane ashland voice fax bbs mcimail compuserve price was around recall bio eng not set accept credit cards had send check egghead and software list turbocom but far know they don stock bio not software company per they apparently needed reliable speed serial connections for house instrument application wrote their own driver discovered market for revised general purpose com driver suite they recently upgraded for windows run time licensed now have host dte connect rate set bps most datacomm apps and having zero problems with downloads routinely see transfer rates that exceed bps also using bps when linking with lossless directional uploads various remote systems are another matter because many hosts are still using antique uarts and drivers note that still the highest rate that the windows port menu control panel will allow configuring com port turbocom gets around this allowing you specify each port factor that will set the real uart rate multiple the rate passed through the windows apis and dialog boxes also have cts rts hardware flow control enabled and suggest that you the same even you only ever transfer bit ascii data xon xoff not sufficiently reliable method flow control the informal dec standard for xon xoff hysteresis that the sender may transmit another yes sixteen bytes after receipt the xoff from the receiving system device the byte fifo the clearly not big enough let rely exclusively xon xoff well respected datacomm engineer has informed that the can really cts rts all itself the dos windows environment using data rates above may still risky even with hardware flow control with turbocom can still experience overruns very busy systems with lots apps running and serious swapping progress this your situation you may need buy processed com board but this will cost you more than turbocom upgrade review two such boards and review turbocom can found the feb issue windows sources magazine suggest trying turbocom upgrade first and experiment with process priorities and time slices you are power user whose thrashing system still runs into comm problems closing soapbox comments the state serial datacomm support embarrassment across the computer industry because the oldest standard interface the job designing hardware and writing software often seems assigned the least senior lowest ranked engineers computer companies the design the average serial port least ten years behind the state the art last job with major workstation vendor lobbied for improved serial ports when they were doing the initial designs new system that family machines was subsequently introduced with ports however this the exception few computer companies seem have any champions for decent you may well learn what you can about serial because this situation shows sign improving soon when fast arrives expect cries outrage from windows users world wide whose pcs sort work today with but will fail miserably with fast without hardware buffered uart like the and without software drivers that use that uart best advantage fast modem will waste money regards east harmony road bob niland suite internet rjn csn org fort collins compuserve copyright robert niland all rights reserved permission granted for automatic redistribution this article via electronic magnetic and optical media unedited form through any usenet newsgroup where the article posted the author permission granted for each compuserve and usenet reader subscriber and each person who received this article from compuserve ftp site authorized the author via electronic mail from the author retain one electronic copy and make hardcopy reproductions this edition this article for personal non commercial use provided that material changes are made the article this copyright statement all other copying storage reproduction redistribution this article any form prohibited without the express written consent the author robert niland eof
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any updated canon driver can anyone tell where can get copy updated canon printer driver for windows any have ver which comes with printer just wonder there any newer version thanks very much please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for workgroups and lan workplace this may simple question but have number which use link mainframe using novell lan workplace for dos via windows now make life easier for are thinking using windows for workgroups allow file sharing across our network now does anyone know possible use and lan workplace for dos the same time can access file another while being logged the mainframe the same time simultaneously any help well appreciated gary hunt centre for advanced studies architecture university bath absgh gdr bath
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word help article qmf euh msuinfo msu edu gcook horus cem msu edu greg cook writes from article vms csd edu dubinski vms csd edu can anyone tell and how they have printed spanish characters know has this built but not recall ever seeing this option wfw help try using the extended character set alt sequences look character map the accessories group and see the alt sequence for the font you want thanks think figured out now robert dubinski aliases include robb regal sir and marquette university math computer science double major internet address dubinski vms csd edu milwaukee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows then where the info for the licensing kept which file the organization box put address and when moved wanted change but couldn find could find name but not the organization robert dubinski aliases include robb regal sir and marquette university math computer science double major internet address dubinski vms csd edu milwaukee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	page setup notepad previous article joel jach hawaii edu joel aycock wrote struggled with the margin problem for ages well until finally got hold the shareware binary editor beav and dug into notepad exe there setup facility force notepad default margins hardwired into code search for then change the offending bytes viola who are the guys who hardcode these options anyway interested whether the problem only rears ugly head for certain printers using old epson that never can remember aloha you are nto alone get the same problems with panasonic kpx pin oterhwise great printer just can find driver for only for the non version anyone seen rob rmohns vax clarku edu rob mohns annoy rush limbaugh think for yourself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need windows logo previous article dmmatt cajun wrote article qjqed access digex net holland access digex com brian holland writes markus maier maier rzmain uni ulm wrote well searching for the windows logo know the picture when start windows some suitable grafics format like gif jpg windows system vgalogo rle memory serves correctly rle compressed bmp format readable wingif paintshop pro paint and god knows how many other programs that isn enough change your windows startup logo vgalogo rle not needed after you have installed windows incorporated part win com make new win com you have concatinate three files together using the option for binary concatonation beleive copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle mywin com make sure you backup your win com file anotehr directory before you this absent mindedly typed win com instead mywin com and had resinstall windows anyway substitute whatever rle file you want the win cnf has the info needed start windows think bootstrap and vgalogo vga has video information just make sure that the rle file doesn tip the whole com file size over the limit com file anyway use mywin com startup windows now instead that annoying micro oft advertisment have the joker yes from batman taking yoru picture from the screen saying smile also little bit text micro oft windows the world first commercially sucessful virus added that because the frequency crashes grin rob post rob mohns rmohns had water vax clarku edu drowned sand
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any updated canon driver can anyone tell where can get copy updated canon printer driver for windows any have ver which comes with printer just wonder there any newer version thanks very much please email
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any good sound formats conversion program out there article edd mings monash edu edd mings monash edu ywi writes all does anyone know there good sound formats conversion program out there like paintshoppro for picture formats conversion please send copy your reply thanks lot bel the best sound conversion program ever seen soundtool which shareware from germany found copy somewhere wuarchive wustl edu long time ago but don know offhand what directory was under great converting files all types including mac next sun and various formats also great player and editor with various special effects that put windows sound recorder shame requires driver for various sound cards the only builtin one for the speaker and even that sounds pretty good but you just using convert things you can convert them soundtool and then play them sound recorder give try bret why that the second mogul soda berkeley edu biggest monkey head mogul ocf berkeley edu ever seen guybrush mogul uclink berkeley edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows rmohns vax clarku edu writes this relation question concerning changing the registered information windows previous article dubinski vms csd edu wrote ahh yes this fun topic once the name incribed the disk that encoded not even hex editor will find you can write over the licensed but you can change the name underneth can find with hex editor although have not tried overwrite are you sure can you may mistaken about this rob rmohns vax clarku edu similar note has anyone found out way this with foxpro for windows setup ini file was modified disk all encrypted well course forgot about microsoft stupid arrangement when got the software and used name was paid for the company doing consulting for when job done their software any ideas before start doing dumb things copy that file mattias don want pirate this software just want avoid having buy new copy order change the registration information and then having copy lying around don use maybe can get new disk mattias hembruch views not necessarily reflect those the tse mail mhembruc tse com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems jeff meyers jmeyers ecst csuchico edu wrote article qkqrhinnobc matt ksu ksu edu kentiler matt ksu ksu edu kent iler writes have friend who connects the mainframe and unix machines here using procomm plus for windows but the screen seems have problem keeping with the modem has modem mhz machine tell him probably needs upgrade faster video card baud modem was one the reasons sought out the diamond speedstar get about million winmarks and just about keeps with the modem speed using procomm plus for windows too should get over million his machine with the same card anything should yield acceptable speed using plus home trusty old nec with baud modem with problems all however running only straight color vga christopher menzel internet cmenzel tamu edu philosophy texas university phone college station fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gatewaying microsoft mail workgroups via modem our student association runs small novell network which has subnetwork windows for workgroups and microsoft mail the director finance electrical engineering student would like gateway this system either via slip not into the university network and thus the internet the very least exchange mail but possibly also ftp etc for now this would done via bps modem would like set that would periodically call check mail but would otherwise connect whenever needed what the best way this gatewaying software available but what works best please reply dkmiller unixg ubc the dleung ubc with the other don read all these groups regularly mail best this common question please pot faq ftp site derek miller dkmiller unixg ubc researcher alma mater society thegrodd ucs sfu university british columbia canada room sub blvd vancouver campus mail zone phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what somewhere this thread has been said that windows multi user well multi threading etc certainly haven seen this the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories that desired don see implentation simultaneuos use though scott scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach blah blah blah always store beer cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows keeps crashing please help article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh gpf late was never very stable package but now seems crash every day the worst part about that does not crash consistently have you tried setting files your config sys file fairly high number got mine set seen numbers from recommended also check your stacks statement stacks good starting point try increasing already set there such stacks etc both stacks and files have been identified one cause frequent win crashes lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond win mouse cursor article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don lindbergh writes article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond driver sorry don know the version the driver indication the menus but recently delivered gateway system going try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered anyone else had seen this followup this worker machine has the latest drivers only happens using the driver sometimes takes minute for the cursor wig out but eventually does this mode susect something stepping memory the video card wants excluded the emm line and system ini the problem persisted perhaps something specific the gateway machine components mhz eisa bus with ultrastore controller well was hoping this was some kind known problem somebody had seen before perhaps call gateway order but find folks here usually are far more the know don lindbergh dabl lhc nlm nih gov haven seen this particular problem but another place you might check your bios doing video shadowing diamond wants that turned off that might cause memory conflict well good luck hope this helps chris loschen brandeis
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what wild access digex com wildstrom writes rmohns vax clarku edu writes chicogo what want use like true with thrue multitasking and multithreading but has much smaller hardware requirements and does not meet dod security specs but that okay since will probably more client there are few otehr differences but those are the main ones there was article about chicogo week last august the chicogo and development groups micro oft are intense competition said however think different relationship will arise will the server etowrk echonology chicogo will the client machine entirely possible for different work together partly because chicogo just small think that way anyway novell netware creates the server that truly not dos don scorn the concept anyway don expect soon windows and dos are supposed released next year read see expect that chicogo won out til how does chicago differ from the sort announced windows understand ing least from the inbfoworld accound windows that sort lite full fledged operating system but lacking server and security features that make such bear not true multithreading can anyone tell how chicago windows would differ from believe not not trying start flame war here simply curious there going any feature advantage either these products not consider the fact that has uncle bills seal approval much feature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gif bmp does anybody have any idea where could find program that can convert gif image into bmp image suitable for windows wallpaper colors hopefully there something out there can get from ftp site somewhere thanks advance scott
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond win mouse cursor article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond driver sorry don know the version the driver indication the menus but recently delivered gateway system going try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered anyone else had seen this followup this worker machine has the latest drivers only happens using the driver sometimes takes minute for the cursor wig out but eventually does this mode susect something stepping memory the video card wants excluded the emm line and system ini the problem persisted perhaps something specific the gateway machine components mhz eisa bus with ultrastore controller well was hoping this was some kind known problem somebody had seen before perhaps call gateway order but find folks here usually are far more the know use the diamond speedstar mode all the time have not found distortions the cursor the cursor little jumpy from time time due bit access the swap file but never distorted greg bishop bishop baeyer chem fsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for workgroups and lan workplace now does anyone know possible use and lan workplace for dos the same time can access file another while being logged the mainframe the same time simultaneously yup using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now have load netbeui use odi with odinsup and all works well
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dataproducts lzr not printing correctly just apology advance for posting binary this newsgroup had several attempts mail the original poster but not getting through intact clive mitchell regional network systems mitchell telecomwa perth western australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm now hplj pricing while there are too many clones count some which are quite poor trying clone something that goes through regular modifications does require some patience three questions come mid real quick for something like this which version adobe will clone aside from the level and level issues adobe has the past released new code that incorporates modifications upgrades fixes just all other software vendors the level stuff may seem sound now but assure you changes will become more frequent their customer list begins dwindle the face competition this allows them shift people maintenance well design efforts for level duplicate the bugs make work correctly from the laserwriter the laserjet there have been bugs had number call adobe they have heard from deciding which approach take depends which printer you want emulate follow the red book follow someone implementation without doubt there are differences between the red book and adobe with level many issues have been refined but the red book does leave big big holes the implementation specific stuff would nice the red bood least pined things down enough that two different implementations adobe don the exact opposite given identical set conditions pscript drv having done lot clone testing myself the unfortunate side testing the limited number sources for test files the primary source use genoa and having characterizes their ats files them over half are taken from pscript drv may not ideal but the ats files are what the printer vendors use sure that adobe uses them too but adobe output definition correct even its wrong yes there are some very poor clones seen them here rastek sub genicom which has its own clone called geniscript some are poor for lack design some are poor because they followed the red book and some are poor because the vendors don know what don newbold don rastek com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	procomm plus for windows problems robert niland rjn teal csn org wrote much text deleted have heard from several people about less expensive cards with tsd systems for the card plus per can vouch for this one ordered and got for including took awhile figure out how get working with system but since did get terrific results while downloading using pcplus for windows used get errors started any other program while downloading high speed not anymore more text deleted tom huot huot cray com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files everybody guess subject has said all getting boring looking those same old bmp files that came with windows wondering there any body has some beautiful bmp file can share maybe somebody can tell some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used have some unfortunately delete them all anyway could give some help please thanks lot john
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	panasonic driver apr netnews noc drexel edu brzyckmj dunx ocs drexel edu mike writes does anyone out there know there are print drivers for windows for the panasonic pin dot matrix printer been told that panasonic has uploaded some compu erve but don have cis account just use the epson driver myself and comes out very pretty very slowly carl fink carlf panix com fink genie liuvax bitnet facts are stubborn things and whatever may our wishes our inclinations the dictates our passions they cannot alter the state facts and evidence john adams
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gif bmp saz hook corp mot com scott zabolotzky writes does anybody have any idea where could find program that can convert gif image into bmp image suitable for windows wallpaper colors hopefully there something out there can get from ftp site somewhere thanks advance scott scott look ftp cica indiana edu for gws zip they embed the release number the name and not sure what the lates graphics workshop there dos and windows version both work great even had someone bring some images from the amiga and converted them great looking wallpaper color bmp files you can find repost let know and dig the archive dave dave campbell wynapse wynapse wynapse indirect com the shareware custom control source
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows vms csd edu dubinski vms csd edu writes ahh yes this fun topic once the name incribed the disk that encoded not even hex editor will find you can but disk compare utility old versus new will and windows also flexible enough install time that you can copy all the files onto your hard disk which greatly speeds things and makes them less annoying you can spare the compressed megs write over the licensed but you can change the name underneth think you wish change this you would have pirate and not going promote that here not but also not going promote pandering corporate paranoia when the real issue convenience don like dealing with floppies personally have use for changing the registration info but see valid need and one that ought solved using quick little utility rather than half hour reinstall that just about guaranteed mess your settings one way another while not going put much time into myself here the procedure for getting your way finding the encoded information copy all your windows disks into the directory from which you want install been using winstall myself from there copy that directory something like winorig install from winstall comp the two directories determine changes comp winorig report txt look the report file for the file that change assuming they didn cover themselves covering their own tracks least one file should have difference noted particular offset locate said offset the original directory and see what there using hex editor and the same for the modified one you your own far breaking the code goes don really cryptography probably just xor key something think more concerned with joe schmoe the office personalizing his copy than with real pirates who will probably just disassemble the damned thing anyway this technique should work with just about any obnoxious corporate product that tries write the original floppies when you install some extreme cases you may not able back the floppies hard disk and will stuck doing compare floppies lotus stuff probably like that noted before you can afford the space the hard disk and don much the way customization reinstalling from one directory another may less arduous doing some the stuff mentioned here may well void your license with microsoft they ever find out you aren careful with the disk editor you could also mung something important duh guess that disclaimer have rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane leather yes win phish light blue right bondage dtp steely dan fnm owl genesis the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond win mouse cursor apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond driver sorry don know the version the driver indication the menus but recently delivered gateway system going try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered anyone else had seen this sporadically yes seems flicker change shape into snow briefly not enough impair functionality just call attention diamond professional sloppiness rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane leather yes win phish light blue right bondage dtp steely dan fnm owl genesis the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ndw norton desktop for windows have ibm and run windows friend installed norton desktop for windows top this loads automatically when type win and surely adds the already dismally slow process starting would like know how stop uninstall this program have taken out win ini but still pops running with windows did big search and found reference ndw ini system ini and progman ini removing here causes failure when starting windows progrman ini has group ndw exe which can deleted there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell how turn off thanks chet please email responses can read news from home account chetter ucthpx uct
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype fonts that display but not print just installed new truetype font under windows but though all the applications display the font correctly the screen quite few them fail print out the document correctly laserjet non postscript printer when use the font coreldraw the document prints correctly assume coreldraw knows that the font has downloaded the printer but when use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes place the characters the new font yet write does display the font correctly the screen looked through all the windows and laserjet manuals but got nowhere all them just make the statement that truetype fonts will print exactly you see them the screen assume windows knows that font has downloaded automatically but how make that appreciate any help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ndw norton desktop for windows article apr leland stanford edu shiva leland stanford edu matt jacobson writes have ibm and run windows friend installed norton desktop for windows top this loads automatically when type win and surely adds the already dismally slow process starting would like know how stop uninstall this program there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell how turn off get the friend uninstall read the manual though from your post infer that you are using pirated software into sys ini and change the shell line read shell progman exe daniel david mittleman danny arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cirrus logic graph card article qms news berlin wong berlin wolfgang jung writes after setting windows for using cirrus logic vlb graphicscard moved normal window from one place another what was wondering why not using the bitblt engine which suuposed the chip how are the experiences here have done something wrong the has its own set drivers you may using the drivers intended for the mistake sure you have the driver version installed the mswin multiresolution drivers which where supplied with the card don quote this one but steer clear the multi resolution driver that allows you change resolution without exiting windows think buggy also there are new hopefully faster drrivers around would love how get hold them ftp whatsoever version drivers are due release cirrus soon unfortunately their not available via ftp you have dial their bbs the usa this from using modem cut down phone bills took around minutes download the driver good luck andy gardner wellington new zealand whanga nui tara aotearoa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows kudla acm rpi edu robert kudla writes stuff about changing windows registration omitted the damned thing anyway this technique should work with just about any obnoxious corporate product that tries write the original floppies when you install some extreme cases you may not able huh copy win came permanently write protected diskettes sliding tabs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printing envelops not got probelm with printing envelops deskjet from word for windows history when had deskjet had modify the macro that would disable reverse printing since there seemed bug that interferred with printing envelops that bug still present however now the problem have that deskjet print driver came with the printer bought december still wants print the envelops portrait mode however the deskjet feeds envelops the from the narrow end landscape mode how get the printer print the envelops the correct orientation please please please not post this the net since due end the semester cruch can keep these groups and will summarize the best answer the net anyhow thanks advance craig stevenson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ndw norton desktop for windows article leland stanford edu shiva leland stanford edu matt jacobson writes have taken out win ini but still pops running with windows did big search and found reference ndw ini system ini and progman ini removing here causes failure when starting windows progrman ini has group ndw exe which can deleted there anyone familiar with ndw who can tell how turn off one the items the group folder typically called norton desktop applications labelled norton desktop uninstall need say more kris gupta cardiothoracic imaging research center dept radiology hospital pennsylvania internet kris gynko circ upenn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cool background patterns here are some cool background patterns made edit your control ini and add the following lines your patterns section bricks tile tile diagonal slats make sure your desktop color one the standard colors the patterns might not work like dark grey the best with these you have any cool one your own please mail them stefan powell spowell trentu peterborough ontario canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ndw norton desktop for windows ndw would like know how stop uninstall this program uninstall icon doesn exist the norton desktop apps group run ndw install program with
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype fonts that display but not print article apr mintaka lcs mit edu avinash silver lcs mit edu avinash chopde writes just installed new truetype font under windows but though all the applications display the font correctly the screen quite few them fail print out the document correctly laserjet non postscript printer but when use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes place the characters the new font yet write does display the font correctly the screen this common problem with highly complex truetype fonts microsoft admits problem with older versions the postscript printer driver but found pretty generic you can get around the problem adjusting the parameter outlinethreshold the truetype section win ini this entry specifies the number pels per which windows will render truetype fonts outline fonts instead bitmap fonts the default generally been able get fonts work setting outlinethreshold depending your printer resolution and the point size you are using you may need different value the windows resource kit warns against going above presumably that might cause fonts print square boxes something not smiling bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hercules graphite tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes has anyone used hercules graphite adapter looks good paper and steve gibson gave very good review infoworld love get real world impression though how the speed drivers support ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes the world reviewers found out that the herc people had hard coded winbench text into the driver clever any case the winbench results are pretty much inflated two things that annoyed about the magazine review their benchmarking technique seriously flawed was clearly shown the graphite and gxe cheating can they just admit that their benchmark easy optimize for and cheat wintach much harder beat the big cheat that hercules iit used was overlappipping bitblit and polyline optimization and hercules sent them new driver which didn this but produced almost identical scores yet the only thing magazine says that scores are not legitimate couldn they least make some comment about its real world performance not much going winbench for performance but rather steve gibson results which are more real world based like using micrografx draw benchmark you believe gibson that writes despite these documented cheats have say that real world applications the hercules graphite adapter actually draws faster than any other display adapter the industry even though just modest isa bus card outperformed every local bus adapter have including the stealth vlb the fahrenheit vlb the ati vlb mach and even the weitek based diamond viper vlb this kind praise enough for interested bogus winbench not when and you get one send mail might buy that ati off you already returned the ati dealer had sold eight them and seven were returned him now temporarily back running original ati until get graphite and yes the faster system than the especially bitmap handling that where you use bitblits hercules has promotion available for vars and software developers you can buy one graphite graphite vlb for off list try out just for graphite for the vlb version decided was worth trying supposed get the vlb board within two weeks post impressions when get tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners your mouth now pull that how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can change licensed data windows apr trintex uucp charles tinman dev prodigy com writes have you tried installing the software otherwise would dubious about simple ways change that screen not designed embarassment would pirates when prodigy going open the doors for inetgate accept internet mail obviously you can post news mail should through well carlos dominguez sysadmin kibbitzer carlos carlos jpr com carlos carlos uucp carlos carlos bang
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what about smartdrv double buffer curious what does the double buffer parameter smartdrv actually for seem have less problems windows when leave out using with esdi drive but also with scsi any response welcome peter sweeney psweeney miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winhelp exe virus anyone familiar with virus that infects the winhelp exe file have recently noticed some unusual system behavior and ran norton antivirus for windows indicated possible unknown virus the winhelp exe file both the mwindows and winos directories neither file changed since installed system january far know any information about this possible virus and suggestions remedies would greatly appreciated bobb samuell samuell cis uab edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	qestion about amipro demo files cica hello have question about the demo files for amipro uploaded cica downloaded and tryied install however didn work addition altered eliminated nwres dll file that had reinstall norton desktop again there anything have know install eventually have ask lotus send working model heard that they have just want see its look and feel before buying any pointer would greatly appreciated thank you hiroto miyoshi psych toronto edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript view for dos windows where can find the windows version ghostscript thanks article hjstein apr sunrise huji hjstein sunrise huji harvey stein writes been using version ghostscript and quite satisfied with there are actually versions plain dos version version and windows version harvey stein hjstein math huji
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emulator posting another news group read while ago said that xview and xremote allow you use xterm call ncd for more info hope helps hao hao zhang dept stat wharton school univ penn zhang wharton upenn edu hzhang compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	last have two questions have been having troubles with wordperfect for windows when try select and change fonts etc some the text disappears tried center two lines once and the second line disappeared can not find the error and not know how correct this the right newsgroup where should mail prefered who else still waiting for naked gun part nathan narloch alumn whscdp whs edu enforcer burp narlochn kirk msoe edu milw join the official psycho team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos font size windows have card and using windows mode normal font not small the enhanced mode the dos window font too small for monitor there way spacify the font size for the dos window you have excuse there trivial answer since fairly new windows world thanks please include this message for reference alavi ssa unity ncsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help with wordperfect for windows have two questions have been having troubles with wordperfect for windows when try select and change fonts etc some the text disappears tried center two lines once and the second line disappeared can not find the error and not know how correct this the right newsgroup where should mail prefered who else still waiting for naked gun part nathan narloch alumn whscdp whs edu enforcer burp narlochn kirk msoe edu milw join the official psycho team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet hello fellow netters asking for your collected wisdom help decide which printer should purchase the canon bubblejet the deskjet thought rather than trust the salesperson would benefit more from relying those who use these printers daily and use them their fullest potential and figure all you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now would greatly appreciate any information you could render the dpi the canon bubblejet the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which faster there noticeable print quality difference particularly graphics which will handle large documents better pages more any personal experience either will appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either these machines highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input mail news posting readily acceptable but mail encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman stanford edu cpa stanford edu theory theory and practice are the same practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone use number gxe video card has anyone used the number nine video graphics adaptor with windows windows what you think
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	keyboard specifications all hardware and firmware gurus current home project build huge paddle keyboard for physically handicapped relative mine goal for this keyboard look exactly like sytle keyboard its host system this will highly endowed keyboard with little pcl from world its heart the only thing lack detailed information the hardware signaling that the with windows and dos will expecting project independant windows hope that some you fellow window users programmers will recognize what need and willing point the right direction have the winn rosch hardware bible edition the gives most not all the information will need concerning scan codes and even wire diagram for the style connector will need but leaves number important questions unanswered synchronous asynchronous serial communication guessing synchronous since the host providing clock either event how the data framed half duplex truly one way guessing half duplex since the host can turn leds and off are there any chipsets available for communicating with the keyboard standard other than cannibalizing real keyboard anyone knows book article any other written source information the above please advise gamet erg sri com whatever must safe for cannot afford replace the the event booboo thank you for your time danke fuer ihre zeit thomas gamet gamet erg sri com software engineer sri international
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	page numbering problem with wfw canon using wfw with canon the printer driver that which comes with windows unfortatunately having problem with printing page numbers the bottom the page can print page number the top the page but not the bottom has anybody had similar problem and does anybody have solution for such problem thanks pwoodcoc business uwo pwoodcoc sms business uwo patrick woodcock western business school london ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gui application frameworks for windows apr cimlinc uucp bharper cimlinc uucp brett harper writes hello investigating the purchase object oriented application framework have come across few that look good zapp from inmark zinc from zinc software views from liant win from blaise some considerations using being new windows programming from the unix world the quality and intuitivness the abstraction that these class libraries provide very important however since not adverse learning the internals windows programming the new programming methodology should closely aligned with the native one don believe arbitrary levels abstraction just for the sake changing the api are valuable the microsoft founation classes afx that come with and visual are very good they already have version for comes with source code and very close the navtive api also some classes manage data structures stefan stefan olson mail stefan olson acme gen kindness giving creates love
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows mature have you used mac system the answer positive you would know windows mature days ago people doubted that windows not real can see why they have such question windows confuses many people microsoft simulated mac but did lousy job for example you can not create hierarchy groups there way create group group you know how please tell too many system parameters take care uncomplete documentation not easy find the reason why causes unpredictable error group deleting file deleting after deleting group users have use file manager delete files but users forget delete some related files the disk will full nonsense files share problem once you create two windows doing compilation and editing some language good editor there will sharing problem you just can not open save the program loaded makes sense prevent from saving but not opening microsoft try compromise between dos and windows but they just make windows graphical dos with capacity doing mutiple dos jobs the worst thing they complicate the environment the orginal purpose windows should simplify the environment and make easier use means easy satisfy everybody but microsoft want keep their reputations they should evaluate the user interface more carefully before products distribute flame please jesse mail cyen unt edu sol acs unt edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how make ghostscript work you need ini zip and zip and zip font files you can get these from wuarchive wustl edu mirrors msdos postscript also advice you get gui zip from cica nice interface for ghostscript ghostscript very user unfriendly this interface makes user friendly for using this interface you have get vbrun dll from risc edu pub network misc copy this your windows directory copy gui executables and other files your ghostscript directory and anter the line below your autoexec bat set lib your ghostscript and gui directory now you are ready use enjoy article apr ulkyvx louisville edu ulkyvx louisvill edu steve brewer writes what files need download for ghostscript have never used ghostscript before don have any files for what have win zip which downloaded from cica unfortunately doesn seem work own but needs some more files that don have want run ghostscript both windows and dos understand there versions for both environments what are all the files need download and where can get them any info would appeciated steve brewer rewerb evets ulkyvx louisville edu ude ellivsiuol xvyklu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos font size windows article apr ncsu edu ssa unity ncsu edu alavi writes normal font not small the enhanced mode the dos window font too small for monitor there way spacify the font size for the dos window you have excuse there trivial answer since fairly new windows world thanks alavi ssa unity ncsu edu first all without wanting sound nagging and bossy yes trivial answer and that perfectly fine otherwise how one supposed move the complicated and challenging questions net readers much enjoy and the massive crossposting your article was not justified please refer appropriate newsgroups next time the way msw misc now far your problem concerned try playing around with the settings the fonts dialog box under the window control menu that little square the top left corner the window costas malamas georgia institute technology oit opinions expressed are not necessarily oit internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows mature get hierarchical icon groups windows use norton desktop for windows windows not mature lousy but its supposed lousy goal ubiquitous not good windows the course for the masses infrastructure dos unix was the course for the cogniscenti infrastructure together they prove that there good effect good and there good effect ubiquitous what need now both significiantly higher level function posix dce corba see the problem may infrastructure but will also monopoly was ibm have conundrum gentlepeople what are going about dubious lee lee rothstein veritech merrymeeting drive merrimack fax information technology verification leadership
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc ghhwang csie nctu edu form taiwan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need video drivers for tseng true color hello purchased video card called true color card which can provide about colors but the question can find the corresponding drivers for windows now using colors driver for win works fine but think will better use driver please tell whether such driver available thanks advance forever michael jordan tony gtonwu nthu edu cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	can only insert color pics wfw well the subject says just about all intended ask there way insert color into wfw when try the picture turns into color pic jonni
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	internal speaker driver this probably faq somewhere but looking for microsoft internal speaker sound driver for windows should microsoft ftp site but can remember the name the site thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows mature article cyen ponder jesse writes have you used mac system the answer positive you would know windows mature days ago people doubted that windows not real can see why they have such question windows confuses many people microsoft common complaints about windows deleted jesse mail cyen unt edu sol acs unt edu hmmmm why get the feeling that this gonna start one those endless threads mac win and might even end win well dont know windows mature have seen one which case that has windows but dont quick judge first all try use plain vanilla windows courageous try use plain vanilla dos there are lots very nice commercial and shareware packages utilities that will boost windows past what itself thought possible for example norton desktop for windows replace ment for progman will give you group within group capability and will even change group icons will launch progs association well fileman does that too dragging the file the apps icon now mac doesnt that huh and the list goes and now windows kinda hard finetune boost and configure but thats trhe price pay for not paying get mac capable machine entirely differet story the other hand you dont like the idea icons not correspnding the files themselves well they are not supposed program launching utility not file manager modify your settings have your shell and not get couple utilities from cica that supposedly give you mac feel dont wanna get the discussion which better system mac are good their own way they are different not better worse than win pcs actually writing this from mac lab user assistant dont think partial win all means check out the stuff cica ftp ftp cica indiana edu under the pub win subdir user anonymous wait for startrek mac the threads are gonna have then just trying avoid another mac win war costas malamas georgia institute technology oit opinions expressed are not necessarily oit internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	midi files win and soundblaster have computer with soundblaster card running microsoft windows have the driver set properly play normal sounds wav files etc want play midi files through the media player that included with windows know have set the patch maps something the midi mapper the control panel know nothing about midi this the way get feet wet how set windows that can play midi files david thomas dudek pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu new york music the food love buffalo play shakespeare
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	any video gurus feel like attacking this quirk there having bizarre video problem within windows have with gvga video board been using the standard windows vga driver with other similarly configured computers thinking that problem with the way windows refreshes screen the problem that once windows has been envoked the colors start changing themselves first thought was hardware but you open full screen dos program from within the windows session you don have any problems until you get back windows however when you initially return windows the original colors get refreshed properly also not uniform color change you are solitaire the design the back the card maintains original color scheme but the white fronts the cards will turn grey then blue etc the color changes keep getting darker until finally everything dark purple ish black you pop out dos and exit back windows the screen gets refreshed again don log into windows and just dos things from the novell network everything fine originally loaded the software bouncing down the net from the other machine had just finished configuring then from the net this machine when ran into problems deleted everything this machine and the net and tried bouncing again when that didn work tried reloading windows avail any thoughts things check out totally baffled thanks advance for any assistance and instruction linda cornell lcornell washington edu office research
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what article bcf deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott reimert writes somewhere this thread has been said that windows multi user well multi threading etc certainly haven seen this the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories that desired don see implentation simultaneuos use though scott certainly multi user what have seen from the march beta that doesn yet come with the stuff which exploits multi user features remember somebody from stating that doesn allow two users share one gui interpretation this was that one user per console but all the networking and rpc based stuff you want believe ftp and rlogin deamons for systems will come from third party somebody already has beta version unsecure ftpd the net there reason why one cannot write posix based shell like csh unix for remote logins general liked when checked out slow compared win just like any other real the beta version although being slow botts much faster than sun workstation windows subsystems also start lot faster than windows believe bill gates was right when stated that was not for everybody after playing around with for while was convinced owned busines using business computer from ibm some other established vendor would consider moving platform because would provide much cheaper solution you are running sql servers etc provides the robustness such application requires the other hand you like your dos games more less forget about you can always boot dos but general that defeats the purpose using most features are visible networked environment and such environment you can reboot your machine will for personal use would rather wait for the win based windows release whatever you name than jump bandwagon expect most applications will keep using win until win becomes widely available sadun anik illinois urbana champaign center for reliable and high performance computing mail anik crhc uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help with for windows article apr kirk msoe edu narlochn kirk msoe edu writes have two questions have been having troubles with wordperfect for windows when try select and change fonts etc some the text disappears tried center two lines once and the second line disappeared can not find the error and not know how correct this the right newsgroup where should mail prefered know you said mail preferred but because this common problem with wpwin post here the screen only looks like the text gone usually you can just page then page down and when does complete refresh the text reappears have had rare occasions completely exit save first the program when reopened the file all chaos had been resolved don know why does this but annoying the graphics problems have now made word for windows user
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need video drivers for tseng true color tony gtonwu nthu edu wrote hello purchased video card called true color card which can provide about colors but the question can find the corresponding drivers for windows now using colors driver for win works fine but think will better use driver please tell whether such driver available thanks advance sorry card can display about colors not colors hope some one could answer question thanks forever michael jordan tony gtonwu nthu edu cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ftp tool for windows there any one know what the ftp tool for windows and where get the tool thanks for any help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fahrenheit problems help recently bought orchid fahrenheit real nice card but having very big problems with the basic problem that vertical lines are missing from the display windows something like every other line also when use dos gif viewer namely vpic fahrenheit mode vertical lines are swapped very strange looking uses vesa standards however works great only thinks there only the card there there have contacted orchid support and they tried helpful but didn have the answer don think the card the problem since works great friend computer here setup fahrenheit bios opti chipset ami bios ram maxtor harddrive slave maxtor harddrive master panasonic monitor version windows drivers windows tried taking all memory managers etc off and took all other cards besides disk controller off friend setup shamrock monitor anyone has seen anything like this can otherwise help will very greatful please send mail tdarugar tartarus ucsd edu tdarugar ebon ucsd edu tony
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win hang help problem mhz hangs extended mode trying access drives sometimes will dir sometimes will hang access sometimes will when tying text file hardware american megatrend motherboard ami bios conner hard drive trident meg svga please help its standard mode
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win config sys query there with megs ram there need run load smartdrv for windows yes can run load ramdrive without smartdrv need both ramdrive smartdrv the following config sys settings smartdrv sys ramdrive sys thanks advance for mail reply yuan wiliki eng hawaii edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted info asymetrix toolbook does anyone know the phone and fax number the asymetrix corporation also interested their mail address would also like know what the current status their product toolbook received the last update about year ago are their any new developments toolbook slowly dying regards rob winter nothing beats skiing you want have real fun during holidays rob winter philips research ist building box eindhoven the netherlands tel mail dewinter prl philips
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos font size windows alavi ssa unity ncsu edu wrote have card and using windows mode normal font not small the enhanced mode the dos window font too small for monitor there way spacify the font size for the dos window you have excuse there trivial answer since fairly new windows world thanks please include this message for reference alavi ssa unity ncsu edu can recall you can click the upper left button dos window then choose font change also there demo window show you advance how the font you choose will affect the size dos window make try
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted xterm emulator for windows hello looking for xterm emulator which runs under windows please reply via mail thanks chera bekker bekker mail bekker utwente faculty applied physics voice university twente fax the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond win mouse cursor dabl nlm nih gov don lindbergh writes article apr nlm nih gov dabl nlm nih gov don lindbergh writes anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond driver sorry don know the version the driver indication the menus but recently delivered gateway system going try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered anyone else had seen this followup this worker machine has the latest drivers only happens using the driver sometimes takes minute for the cursor wig out but eventually does this mode susect something stepping memory the video card wants excluded the emm line and system ini the problem persisted perhaps something specific the gateway machine components mhz eisa bus with ultrastore controller well was hoping this was some kind known problem somebody had seen before perhaps call gateway order but find folks here usually are far more the know have had several problems with the card applications crashed when moving the mouse vga mode fixed removing the line stacks from config sys the default value stacks does just fine random white pixels all over the screen when moving the mouse color graphical mode the hardware cursor modes fixed turning off the hardware scroll xmode scrolloff before entering the graphics mode this also fixed the problem the windowed dos boxes under windows with the hardware scroll enabled applications write garbage outside the window the screensavers not remove the cursor color modes hardware cursor don know this windows problem driver problem clearly there should two types cursor removing functions remove for draw which can ignored for hardware cursors and remove unconditionally other cards with hardware cursors have the same problem the vesa driver does not support the truecolor mode universal vesa drivers not run all disclaimer unless otherwise stated the above comments are entirely own jan van loenen digital equipment corporation jvl idca tds philips hlde loenen
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm exe and windows and dos windows created permanent swap file win recommended that bit access use emm exe after win startup have memory free leave emm exe out config sys have memory free and windows recommends swap file use dos with memmaker have internal memory and does anybody knows why this happening possibly win needs some umb manage virtual memory true which umb those that emm can find without including suspicious parts need optimized dos environment because develop applications for dos using windows programming environment rudi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win hang eng eng monash edu charles choong writes help problem mhz hangs extended mode trying access drives sometimes will dir sometimes will hang access sometimes will when tying text file hardware american megatrend motherboard ami bios conner hard drive trident meg svga please help its standard mode have the same problem someone suggested might bios bug gonna check with supplier tomorrow tell you helps wouter
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what anyway don expect soon windows and dos are supposed understanding was that chicago was dos released next year read see expect that chicogo won out til dominic drohan email drohand cad gmeds com electronic data systems phone you like talk for hours just ahead now the spin doctors note the views and opinions expressed herein are mine and not reflect those electronic data systems corp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ftp site for wav files hello everybody are there any ftp sites with wav files available frode kvam name frode kvam univ university trondheim dept informatics mail frode ifi unit snail mail lademoens kirkealle trondheim voice beware programmers who carry screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	moving icons remember reading about program that made windows icons run away from the mouse moved near them does anyone know the name this program and the ftp location probably cica kirk membry our age the age industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pixel font looking for font that looks like pixels off monitor not the lcd kind font though does anyone know where can get one kirk membry our age the age industry rutgers viamar kmembry alexander rodchenko
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone use number gxe video card article npg sandiegoca ncr com claborne npg sandiegoca ncr com chris claborne writes has anyone used the number nine video graphics adaptor with windows windows what you think just put one machine last week have ast was getting million winmarks with diamond and the board doing million winmarks from brief experiences with very satisfied btw this with win marc snyder uucp philabs crpmks marcs system administrator ciba geigy corporation hawthorne new york work play
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help setting pif for games there have few games that like run under windows and can get the pifs adjusted right for example wing commander dos prompt have more than available for programs this enough run build pif giving couple megs extended memory etc and run prompts loading wing commander and then message about using extended memory etc and then screen goes black just before the opening scene the orchestra would have appeared also have pool game that does almost the same thing opens and prompts for what kind video driver have cga ega etc respond ega and the screen goes black both these ctrl alt del getss back windows has anyone run wing commander under windows has had the problems describe and fixed them here the rest setup disk free memory free during win session respond here mail anyone else needs this info send mail couple days and forward the replies you clinton pierce cartesian bear polar bear after coordinate transform clintp world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc article csie nctu edu ghhwang csie nctu edu ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that authority risc but clearly remember reading that the instruction set risc cpus rather large the difference addressing modes risc instruction sets are not orthogonal cisc some people say fun but think very serious eugene macadam mpce edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	window start position for app how how you set app give its window default start position and size mike hayes knowledge good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech thank you groucho marx day the races driven banging head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted info asymetrix toolbook article apr prl philips dewinter prl philips rob winter writes does anyone know the phone and fax number the asymetrix corporation also interested their mail address would also like know what the current status their product toolbook received the last update about year ago are their any new developments toolbook slowly dying regards rob winter nothing beats skiing you want have real fun during holidays rob winter philips research ist building box eindhoven the netherlands tel mail dewinter prl philips rob their mail adress support asymetrix com heard beta have look bitserv list toolb which toolbook list regards olaf winkelhake
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	borland paradox offer considering buying borland paradox for windows since would like use database with windows don have use one yet for both work home use would like advantage borland until april offer this package everything that borland claims was wondering has anybody used this and have any opinions tom belmonte been using access still available from some stores for and quite pleased with relatively easy learn very easy use and somewhat easy program highly recomend particularly have not used paradox for windows but don expect better than access imho dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword and quattro pro problems notebook hello have notebook with windows running fine winword and quattro pro for windows also work fine when virtual memory used switching the virtual memory option these programs probably others too don work the system crashes the same programs work well with arbitrary virtual memory two other desktop what doing wrong you can help please mail directly possible thank you very much advance stefan stefan kolodzie heinrich heine university institute for general psychology duesseldorf germany mail kolodzie uni duesseldorf
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how quickly switch between windows screen resolutions can someone out there tell how switch window screen resolution quickly and easily know that can back into install but what really like have the ability just change couple startup configuration files and have the resolution changed already have both video drivers that need system that isn problem thanks sean sean gilley sean gilley att com use this address all others bounce
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how transfer video tape all asking for info behalf friend there what would the best way copy the output monitor video tape any ideas please prescribe additional hardware and software just assuming intel windows environment thanks advance jerry help support dam jerry johnson struggling csci grad student jwjohn ecst csuchico edu there any other kind mothers against dyslexia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	okidata printer driver have okidata printer for which would like have printer driver has anyone seen such thing there not one the microsoft bbs can print from windows but have fonts available and with paradox for windows can print labels unless there proper printer defined thanks bryan ward survey research center university utah mail bryan src sbs utah edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond speedstar driver for looking for win driver set for diamond speedstar video card does anybody know archive site that has these looked cica and had drivers for the stealth card and for generic cards but not one specifically for the speedstar there one has diamond dropped the speedstar out the driver development loop thanks for any info rob robert mee boston university information technology rem edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what article bcf deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott reimert writes somewhere this thread has been said that windows multi user well multi threading etc certainly haven seen this the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories that desired don see implentation simultaneuos use though since running any gui over network going slow down fair amount expect windows will multiuser only the sense sharing filesystems someone will likely write telnetd for one could run character based apps but graphics based apps will have shared running the executables the local cpu this how things are shaping everywhere client server architectures are taking over from the old cpu terminal setups note that the next does this you can always telnet into next and run character based apps but you can run the gui yeah know about windows just haven been too impressed iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos font size windows ssa unity ncsu edu alavi writes have card and using windows mode normal font not small the enhanced mode the dos window font too small for monitor there way spacify the font size for the dos window you have excuse there trivial answer since fairly new windows world thanks please include this message for reference alavi ssa unity ncsu edu the control box the window itself upper left corner the window single click being too simplistic has font option the about the biggest one can use without the characters turning funky hpoe this helps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows faq article dhtf news rich bnr gal bnr gene lavergne writes really gives pause ask this when first heard windows was surprised the name because immediately occurred that sounds like northern telecom product did anyone else notice that the way bnr see address below subsidiary see what mean gal bnr gene lavergne all opera most identify esn with the character elektra box richardson that often worries usa opinions expressed here are mine and not bnr windows wnt can also derived the next letter the alphabet vms same hal and ibm you might recall that the chief architect vms also chief designer wnt rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol rue loi these are views tel bruxelles not companies fax belgium
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	questions about windows help article uky edu shan uky edu minghua shan writes don know much about windows but always thought that win would run only intel compatable systems are setting network which includes sun sparc server and about dozen some people suggest that run windows the sun sparc server replacing the current sunos don know whether this possible and whether this would any good would appreciate any help answering few questions below does windows run sun sparc server the answer question yes does run unix applications such sas for unix windows multiuser when will windows released there any telephone number that can call and get more info win thank you minghua shan far have read win will supported intel dec alpha and the mips series processors only remember though reading rumour about sparc support sometime the future not sure what you mean running unix applications you would have have sas for win maybe sas for win etc have read that will anounce avalaibility win end may comdex spring hope this helps rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol rue loi these are views tel bruxelles not companies fax belgium
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows keeps crashing please help article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh gpf late was never very stable package but now seems crash every day the worst part about that does not crash consistently there way sys ini turn off ram parity checking unfortunately good windows references are home but any standard win reference will tell you how not email back that weird memory may producing phony parity errors danger you turn checkling off you run the slight risk data corruption due missed real error
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc article sunb ocs edu eugene mpce edu writes article csie nctu edu ghhwang csie nctu edu ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that authority risc but clearly remember reading that the instruction set risc cpus rather large the difference addressing modes risc instruction sets are not orthogonal cisc hope this will clear taken from one lecture notes the alternative approach cisc which has been adopted many recent years has come known risc the reduced instruction set computer this can characterised simply simpler faster simplifying the design reducing the variety instructions addressing modes the hardware can designed run faster even the cost needing more instructions the same task can done more quickly the simpler faster design typical risc processor will provide large number registers perform all data operations registers provide few addressing modes immediate register offset only allow load store operations access memory only use few instruction formats only support few data types integer unsigned floating steffi beckhaus janet steffi beckhaus newcastle the odds are million one against something occurring chances are will
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fax software for windows would like know about the current fax software available for windows does take baud fax modem please respond with info thank you very much chad toelle toelle evansville edu philip vernon uunet evansville edu toelle
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu writes everybody guess subject has said all getting boring looking those same old bmp files that came with windows wondering there any body has some beautiful bmp file can share maybe somebody can tell some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used have some unfortunately delete them all downloaded the compuserve gif the month raytraced image golf ball next hole very nice bitmap easily converted windows bmp anyone wants could upload copy cica eric eric trepanier internet eric tgm cam org grenon laval quebec everybody has right believe something canada believe have another beer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	using microsoft foundation classes with borland all has anybody tried compile ctrltest from the mfc samples directory after compiling the mfc libs with bwc seems that bwc isn able distinguish pointers overloaded functions for example imagine the following overloaded functions void same name void void same name int after trying the whole day think with bwc its impossible take the adress one the above two functions and assign properly defined function pointer right has anybody else had this problem thanx
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	anyone know stacker email address does anybody know stacker has mail address and what know they have bbs and something compuserve but hoping someone know their mail address john white from stac electronics can reached compuserv for compuserve com would email address work from internet internet ffritze hpwbe wad com phone germany address fromut fritze waldbronn analytic division hewlett packard str waldbronn germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help writing excel macro for each student begin lowest score found max possible value for number assignments begin score lowest score found then lowest score found score end total score sum all scores lowest score found end couldn you simply use min you use sum and than subtract from sum internet ffritze hpwbe wad com phone germany address fromut fritze waldbronn analytic division hewlett packard str waldbronn germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win startup screen downgraded win startup screen hhhheeeellllpppp meeeeeee installed color svga driver for windows last week this driver was downloaded from ftp cica indiana edu specifically for paradise svga card however after installed and when run windows the startup screen the beginning becomes the old windows startup screen everything works fine except the startup screen know the startup screen must have been changed the system ini file but couldn figure out what alter can some one help with this please mail address thang tree egr edu thang jetson edu addition can anyone know where can get paradise svga driver color this used computer and not have anything drivers etc regarding the driver thanks advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	borland paradox offer considering buying borland paradox for windows since would like use database with windows don have use one yet for both work home use would like advantage borland until april offer this package everything that borland claims was wondering has anybody used this and have any opinions tom belmonte you are interested program which very easy use strongly suggest approach extremely easy use make reports etc own both and paradox and almost never use paradox you need build complicated application then paradox the way have heard horror stories about the access programming being extremely cryptic since you seem like you will probably doing fairly small stuff work home use and you have not used database before recommend approach have found only one small thing which would like more easily have one database where the order which the records are entered must different than what the logical ordering permanently reorder use the old dbase iii command the records requires sorting the records appropriately problem since almost always use them this order exporting the database another database which can still approach database and then copying the exported files back the original filename this small weakness considering the other items really like about approach also little slower than paradox other than the loading paradox takes forever and minute load paradox also takes lot memory both hard disk around and ram greg bishop bishop baeyer chem fsu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how quickly switch between windows screen resolutions article qlr djl cbnewsl att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell how switch window screen resolution quickly and easily know that can back into install sean gilley take look ftp cica indiana edu pub win util misc for program caleld vswitch zip close want you want you can get win hope helps costas malamas georgia institute technology oit opinions expressed are not necessarily oit internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond speedstar driver for article edu rem buitc edu robert mee writes looking for win driver set for diamond speedstar video card the diamond bbs has these their baud bbs phone number their baud bbs phone number sorry don know any ftp site that has these though surprised there wasn one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu writes everybody guess subject has said all getting boring looking those same old bmp files that came with windows wondering there any body has some beautiful bmp file can share maybe somebody can tell some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used have some unfortunately delete them all eric hmmm let see could upload some bmp files have around and color ones but rather give you the fishing pole instead the fish here goes begginers guide the coolest windows backgrounds step ftp cica ftp cica indiana edu user anonymous passwd guest pub win util desktop and get one these wingif zip pspro zip gws zip they will scale dither and convert gifs bmps get the index file from the win subdir too for future reference step ftp wuarchive wustl edu plaza aarnet edu archive orst edu and graphics gif get the index file now gigabytes pictures are waiting become your desktop advice you have slow computer ram make your selecting dither any the abovementioned apps hope helps costas malamas georgia institute technology oit opinions expressed are not necessarily oit internet ccastco prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	using microsoft foundation classes with borland article fcp news berlin make berlin kerkhoff writes all has anybody tried compile ctrltest from the mfc samples directory after compiling the mfc libs with bwc seems that bwc isn able distinguish pointers overloaded functions for example imagine the following overloaded functions void same name void void same name int after trying the whole day think with bwc its impossible take the adress one the above two functions and assign properly defined function pointer right has anybody else had this problem thanx think you may chasing the wrong problem don think the function overloading all that sort thing all the time without hitch the big problems have encountered porting mfc that fact that mfc depends couple invalid assumptions have never gotten the entire ctrltest app run under but the reason that makes some bad assumptions about the order which static global objects are initialized some objects are getting accessed before they are initialized the problem the owner draw menu code somewhere you comment out that section all other pieces ctrltest work fine two other major gotchas have found using mfc under the cfile openflags enum uses hard coded numbers for the open mode rather than the manifest constants defined fcntrl which differ between msc and all the mfc collection classes depend another bad assumption that reference base object can used place reference derived object true for pointers not for references sure there are other problems along the same lines but have not encountered them yet have not seen mfc yet but hope that some these will addressed they are not all hype about portability other vendor compilers will just that these were employer opinions wouldn posting them whoever said nothing lasts forever was obviously brendler not cubs fan mike royko spss inc chicago
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows keeps crashing please help article qur qrl access digex net wild access digex com wildstrom writes article apr oracle oracle com ebosco oracle com eric bosco writes from ebosco oracle com eric bosco subject windows keeps crashing please help date fri apr gmt the subjects says windows keeps crashing givinh gpf late was never very stable package but now seems crash every day the worst part about that does not crash consistently there way sys ini turn off ram parity checking unfortunately good windows references are home but any standard win reference will tell you how not email back that weird memory may producing phony parity errors danger you turn checkling off you run the slight risk data corruption due missed real error had this very same problem and did work around turning parity checking off but that only worked while was windows and the parity error would occur immediately after exiting windows however the problem turned out chip simms chip simms can use chip simms computer and when replaced them the problem vanished forever
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	questions about windows help article apr cfmu eurocontrol rajiev cfmu eurocontrol rajiev gupta writes article uky edu shan uky edu minghua shan writes stuff deleted does windows run sun sparc server the answer question yes does run unix applications such sas for unix windows multiuser when will windows released there any telephone number that can call and get more info win thank you minghua shan far have read win will supported intel dec alpha and the mips series processors only remember though reading rumour about sparc support sometime the future not sure what you mean running unix applications you would have have sas for win maybe sas for win etc have read that will anounce avalaibility win end may comdex spring hope this helps rajiev gupta rajiev gupta eurocontrol cfmu disclaimer rajiev cfmu eurocontrol rue loi these are views tel bruxelles not companies fax belgium according the april issue magazine and quote eventually windows likely ported every successful risc architecture powerpc and risc are the two most likely candidates with sparc somewhat less likely because sun relatively strong unix software base later bill
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	moving icons kmembry viamar uucp kirk membry writes remember reading about program that made windows icons run away from the mouse moved near them does anyone know the name this program and the ftp location probably cica remember the name the program your looking for called icofrite cica was where saw last was quite while ago richard calderon rcaldrn epi med miami edu university miami school medicine information systems computing miami florida
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that authority risc but clearly remember reading that the instruction set risc cpus rather large the difference addressing modes risc instruction sets are not orthogonal cisc there are some things you might interested know about today risc processors true that there are fewer instructions but what not commonly known that this causes the size your executables swell that some cases performance similar for larger applications compromise many risc processors today are actually cross between reduced instructions set and complex one this not say that there future cisc processors intel has certainly proved that what want know what does this have with this group dave subject pcf linux risc newsgroups comp unix dos under unix comp sys ibm misc comp sys ibm net comp windows apps comp windows misc alt comp linux questions comp apps spreadsheets comp misc alt linux comp linux man linux references sunb ocs edu from article sunb ocs edu eugene mpce edu article csie nctu edu ghhwang csie nctu edu ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that authority risc but clearly remember reading that the instruction set risc cpus rather large the difference addressing modes risc instruction sets are not orthogonal cisc some people say fun but think very serious eugene macadam mpce edu dave siegel president rtd systems and networking inc president uofaz hardware and computing knowledge society hacks dsiegel arizona edu dsiegel hacks arizona edu dsiegel rtd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows speaker sound driver there ftp site where can get the speaker sound driver there sound exe file that claims the driver but suspicious since not drv file thanks alec lee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	window start position for app how apr ucsu colorado edu hayesj rintintin colorado edu hayes james michael writes how you set app give its window default start position and size try sizeit zip from ftp cica indiana edu the directory ftp pub win desktop freeware also noticed there program called sizer zip which from the description looks like also does what you want hope this helps david white engineer goon fan son dad internet davidw auck irl cri fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows slower using dos adam benson pearl adamb garfield mun
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows speaker sound driver article apr mnemosyne edu alee mnemosyne edu alec lee writes there ftp site where can get the speaker sound driver there sound exe file that claims the driver but suspicious since not drv file thats the file tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	save hard disk allocation error cross linked while running the quick compiler dos window under windows this evening got program has violated system integrity close all applications exit windows and restart your computer error started this when immediately got serious disk error message from windows hit return retry did that about times and then rebooted find that quite few files have been corrupted somehow including the chkdsk output below questions there easy way restore everything working order what might some better approaches what might have caused this does the smartdrv cache make more vulnerable suspicious hard drive caches especially when they cache data writing the straightforward approach would run chkdsk with the option fix the disk and then looks like would probably have reinstall windows and few other things thanks for your comments and suggestions brad banko this machine with hard drive and ram chkdsk output volume serial number errors found parameter not specified corrections will not written disk gfx vpic cvpic exe allocation error size adjusted gfx vpic vpic txt allocation error size adjusted gfx vpic video cfg allocation error size adjusted gfx vpic orcpro cfg allocation error size adjusted gfx vpic vga cfg allocation error size adjusted game goose bird allocation error size adjusted winmisc adv winadv exe allocation error size adjusted lost allocation units found chains bytes disk space would freed gfx vpic cvpic exe cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic geno cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic tri cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic config doc cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic vpic txt cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic video cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic defincon cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic atiwondr cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic geno cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic oak cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic hires cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic aheada cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic vpic doc cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic orcpro cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic everx cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic wait com cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic maxxon cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic wait doc cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic everx cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic ega cfg cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic config exe cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic readme cross linked allocation unit gfx vpic vga cfg cross linked allocation unit game goose bird cross linked allocation unit windows system sound drv cross linked allocation unit windows games grp cross linked allocation unit windows mad bmp cross linked allocation unit mage demo kin cross linked allocation unit mage demo kin cross linked allocation unit mage pkin exe cross linked allocation unit winmisc games dialword exe cross linked allocation unit winmisc games dialword txt cross linked allocation unit winmisc adv winadv wri cross linked allocation unit winmisc adv adv key cross linked allocation unit winmisc adv adv rec cross linked allocation unit winmisc adv freezer cross linked allocation unit spart par cross linked allocation unit bng mbx cross linked allocation unit bytes total disk space bytes hidden files bytes directories bytes user files bytes available disk bytes each allocation unit total allocation units disk available allocation units disk total bytes memory bytes free brad banko dept physics illinois banko uiuc edu see one one teach one cne lnq
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fortran library for windows will like know there fortran library for windows out there have several lots source code written past fortran and recently have needed port them windows would like avoid major code rewrite possible maybe windows library all need please help reply mail traversmorgan swell actrix gen guan lye chua travers morgan ltd box wellington tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wallpaper windows there there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one your windows directory bmp files the wallpaper file nate nathan crowell dept materials science acrl worcester polytechnic institute mail bigal wpi wpi edu flower genesis supper ready
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wincmd trouble with string variables has anyone else been playing with that wincmd utility from magazine having trouble concatenating string variables together and need your help for example temp path temp file ext fullpath temp say fullpath output fullpath fullpath temp say fullpath output file ext seems dropping the first few characters with each concatenations that out memory only have maybe variables total the article didn mention memory limits email you have idea would like see the actual source and output thanks for your help james begole begolej csgrad edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quicken tobias managing your money just got copy tobias managing your money have quicken and wonderful for some things but mym seems have some features that doesn for example doesn seem able handle monthly automatic deductions from checking account you know monthly payment that gets electronically deducted every month from checking account there something that not doing right and can actually that anyway mym seems able handle monthly deductions fact can apparently better than that that you can specify monthly bimonthly quarterly even yearly anyway anyone aware comparitive study the two programs can someone just give their own personal impressions maybe someone who has used both maybe someone who familiar with each could give capsule review anything would greatly appreciated keep mym have pay for and don know whether worth doing mym better than course will keep but can everything mym can maybe even better won thanks all you post reply please also thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	format under win dos has anyone experienced problems formatting system floppy the file manager under dos get formatted disk but when boot with hard drive isn recognized did install doublespace also was able make good working system floppy from the dos command shell windows let know you had this problem too and you heard what going craig silver computer science simon fraser university silver sfu internet burnaby canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	exit codes dos sorry for wrong group hey now first all sorry post this dos question windows group but kinda hurry can scramble find the dos groups names anyway anyone know where ccan find the exit codes dos commands the manual doesn seem have all them particularly looking for copy order make move batch file such that the file wasn coppied properly won deleted please mail louray seas gwu edu thanks mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond win mouse cursor don lindbergh meinte zum thema diamond win mouse cursor anybody seen mouse cursor distortion running the diamond driver sorry don know the version the driver indication the menus but recently delivered gateway system going try the latest drivers from diamond bbs but wondered anyone else had seen this not all using with bios and driver from januar never had any problems with the mouse cursor there already newer driver published greetings sebastian beer gimme gummi lass die sau raus
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	setting three user accounting system with wfwg novice best working with networks and the process planning small accounting system for small business the particular need this case for three machines each different office the same building each having access windows based accounting system first thought set windows for workgroups each the machines likely and two along with the appropriate ethernet cards and cabling that come with the windows for workgroups starter kit one additional user kit will necessary then seems logical purchase simple multi user accounting system along the lines daceasy and fire all the will more less act server with report check printer attached cable runs feet will necessary for this setup well this all seems too easy would any you network gurus out there tell out mind here any and all suggestions however trivial will immensely appreciated apologies this has been brought before thanks john john martin jemartin nyx edu university puget sound kent formerly martin ups edu seinfeldsupersonicsrushbelafleck john martin jemartin nyx edu university puget sound kent formerly martin ups edu seinfeldsupersonicsbc rushdweckl
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc article sunb ocs edu eugene mpce edu writes article csie nctu edu ghhwang csie nctu edu ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that authority risc but clearly remember reading that the instruction set risc cpus rather large the difference addressing modes risc instruction sets are not orthogonal cisc some people say fun but think very serious eugene macadam mpce edu theoretically supposed reduced not any longer that why everyone arguing about risc cisc personally think cisc will win out just take look the pentium not that like intel architectures either but that another story bye brian hojo lee hey excuse miss could have gif you leebr ecf toronto edu leebr eecg toronto edu try linux the best and free clone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help importing eps files into word jburke abacus bates edu jburke writes was wondering anyone knew how view eps word here are the first couple lines helps adobe creator prowrite title tcwn orientation portrait pages pageorder ascend can any one help james burke reading this you agree not hold the writer responsible for any evil jburke abacus bates edu happening that may befall you any time had similar problem converting eps file the solution was simple changed the first line from adobe adobe this fouled the converter the eps file only contained very simple move and draw statements mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno the hague the netherlands all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows help umyin ccu umanitoba qing yin writes easy question for you windows gurus appreciate any help need write line help for our application don have windows software developer toolkit yet since just want build hlp file around windows help engine hope won that complicated anyway could someone kindly give some hints how build such line help does not take pages explain complicated would you help point out what would need vincent yin umyin ccu umanitoba you have developed your own windows application you must have sdk some sort that contains the exe exe file compile and generate hlp files out rtf files rtf files are generated wordprocessor like word for dos this not the solution more specific about your application mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno the hague the netherlands all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files downloaded the compuserve gif the month raytraced image golf ball next hole very nice bitmap easily converted windows bmp anyone wants could upload copy cica please and let know specifics lest the only one this mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wallpaper windows article qvpdo bigboote wpi edu bigal wpi wpi edu nathan charles crowell writes there there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one your windows directory bmp files the wallpaper file nate nate sig there are couple personally using screenpeace which screen saver which will also select your wallpaper from specified directory not necessarily the windows dir let know you want info been pretty happy with screenpeace and the latest version not cica but oak windows scrpc something mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows hangs wlieftin liefting writes hello all you windows freaks out there bought windows dutch version some time ago and run recently upgraded computer cache memory maxtor works real fine but not with windows when playing patience sol minesweeper suddenly the system hangs just can move mouse anymore screen goes blank nothing further screen goes blank computer seems reboot but stops before reaching the end the memory test once maybe even twice got message about some illegal kernel call something accompanied hex adress and close button when pressing the application wouldn close though haven experienced this problem with other programs than these but that mainly because haven really used other programs suspect them hang too anything known about this problem better any patches available forgot tell cmos ram make the computer faster higher bus speed less wait states enable both caches etc the crash comes faster after min deliberately slow the system down slow bus speed wait states disable internal external cache shadowing the crash comes later but comes hope anyone can help wouter got problem too with vlb ram disk sometimes when switch the computer starts windows dutch windows switches switches back text mode and exits dos after one two resets the system works fine thanks patrick amsterdam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speedstar windows enhanced mode have mhz sys based with ram and problem what the best way configure high memory with qemm max have speedstar video card and use hyperdisk disk cache software the problem running windows enhanced mode and having any high memory load stuff high note tried recommended exclude the region but windows insists starting standard mode any suggestions dan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for workgroups and lan workplace flint waters uwyo edu flint waters writes now does anyone know possible use and lan workplace for dos the same time yup using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now have load netbeui use odi with odinsup and all works well hey sounds great does that mean that works with odi thought uses ndis problem that lan workplace with all its drivers uses most umbs hate have load many more drivers make work along read german computer magazine that tcp support for just around the corner anybody have any news about this regards richard richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for workgroups and lan workplace flint waters uwyo edu flint waters writes now does anyone know possible use and lan workplace for dos the same time yup using both and they work just fine hopefully someday wfwg will communicate over lwp tcpip right now have load netbeui use odi with odinsup and all works well hey sounds great does that mean that works with odi thought uses ndis problem that lan workplace with all its drivers uses most umbs hate have load many more drivers make work along read german computer magazine that tcp support for just around the corner anybody have any news about this regards richard possibly caused dupe with this message this message was spread twice outside munich please send short note would help debug news application richard spitz internet spitz ana med uni muenchen edv gruppe anaesthesie tel klinikum grosshadern fax munich germany
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wallpaper windows louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes there any utility available that will make windows randomly select one your windows directory bmp files the wallpaper file there are couple personally using screenpeace which you need just change the wallpaper then written short program that does this using systemparametersinfo function the bad news that you need vbrun dll run and the dll some the program about the order pictures depends the system date and the number bmp files the directory the picture remains the same you execute the program multiple times during the same day and the number bmps has not changed you feel this what you need then could uuencode and email you unavailable via ftp ismo rkk inen joyl joensuu iak joensuu nglui mglw nafh cthulhu lyeh wgah nagl fhtagn
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini nead utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows find any ftp host svein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	moving icons article rahpbh viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes remember reading about program that made windows icons run away from the mouse moved near them does anyone know the name this program and the ftp location probably cica there program called icon frightener included with the book stupid windows tricks bob levitus and tittel addison wesley freeware not the net anywhere happily email copy someone who willing upload can upload through our internet firewall bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows help mario veraart mveraart fel tno wrote umyin ccu umanitoba qing yin writes easy question for you windows gurus appreciate any help need write line help for our application don have windows software developer toolkit yet since just want build hlp file around windows help engine hope won that complicated anyway could someone kindly give some hints how build such line help does not take pages explain complicated would you help point out what would need vincent yin umyin ccu umanitoba you have developed your own windows application you must have sdk some sort that contains the exe exe file compile and generate hlp files out rtf files can download what zip from ftp cica indiana edu this package from all need buid simple hlp files from rich text format files rtf this package also contains dot tamplates for word win rtf files are generated wordprocessor like word for dos this not the solution more specific about your application mario mario veraart tno physics and electronics laboratory email rioj fel tno the hague the netherlands all else fails show pretty pictures and animated videos and don talk about performance david bailey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype font mix times cyrillic having problem with truetype fonts windows have installed the cyrillic fonts found cica and now strange thing happens sometimes windows uses cyrillic when its supposed use times roman examples the tools backup version has one line cyrillic text its opening banner the next last line importing word for windows text written times into also results cyrillic does anyone have idea where look for the problem thanks reiner suikat institute for flight guidance gandalf dlr german aerospace research establishment dlr
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	top windows applications hello everybody searching for business information windows application create top most used wordprocessors spreadsheets drawing programs schedulers and fax programs etc please mail all your information references will summaries the results this media thank you advance anton ruiter digital equipment corporation workgroup products wgp objectworks obw ing anton ruiter mba software product manager post office box apeldoorn the netherlands oude apeldoornseweg apeldoorn the netherlands mail hlde ruiter dtn location apd internet aruit idca tds philips uucp mcsun philapd aruit phone business phone private fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quicken tobias managing your money article apr twg com twg com michael wiesenberg wrote just got copy tobias managing your money have quicken and wonderful for some things but mym seems have some features that doesn for example doesn seem able handle monthly automatic deductions from checking account you know monthly payment that gets electronically deducted every month from checking account there something that not doing right and can actually that have never used mym can not help you with the comparison the two products however devoted quicken user and can tell you how set the weekly monthly quarterly yearly transactions first use the memorize feature ctrl record the recurring transactions next define transaction group which uses these memorized transactions and specify the frequency that should used monthly quicken will can not automatically make the transactions for you but now all you recall the group and all the individual transactions will entered once additionally you are using the bill minder will remind you when each transaction group due for example you could have three transaction groups one for payments the beginning the month middle the month and one for quarterly payments hope this helps mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	videoblaster speaker software that comes together with the videoblaster designed work together with the soundblaster from the same manufacturer since not own soundblaster there possibility use the speaker driver play audio files for the videoblaster avi audio video interleave files think what should have device driver for the media player that controls the speaker driver instead the soundblaster card something like mcispkr drv has anybody heard such driver the wrong track any information this appreciated please send mail since don watch this group regularly joerg meyer mail meyer informatik uni university kaiserslautern germany ooo ooo this space for rent
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	link segment problem calling run time functions have small windows program which can not get work the program looks vaguely like this char int winmain lstrcpy lpstr hello long far pascal wndproc lstrcpy lpstr hello using large model under windows after linking without errors the program said sorting preload segments and resources into fast load section copying segment bytes fatal error segment and its relocation information too large for load optimization make the segment loadoncall rerun using the switch the segment must preloaded using the switch seems interfere with the proper function the second lstrcpy call can anybody explain what going and how fix thanks pugsley dpugsle nswc nswc navy mil
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini article apr news uit odin nosubdomain nodomain svein pedersen writes nead utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows find any ftp host svein unless completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad sysedit exe found your system subdirectory edit you ini files the sysedit exe program cool because automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files edited drewster kimbark uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad ndw just got off the phone with mathsoft technical service they are now admitting problem unknown nature with maple and norton desktop for windows they have clue this time and are collecting configuration information the systems which exhibit the problem anyone having problems loading the maple solver mathcad under ndw shoud call technical support they made schedule promices but are actively working the problem the meantime the workaround provide configuration selection autoexec bat use progman yuk pew whenever you plan use the maple solver and ndw otherwise using norton place little menu the screen with second timeout auto boot ndw david fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond speedstar driver bug since swapping out generic vga card for diamod speedstar have noticed two new problems create windowed dos session mode when the text starts scroll rather than printing characters starts print horizontal lines that spill out the desktop and trash the entire display ctrl alt del terminates the dos window and restores the desktop after short time ncd remote for windows all characters displayed the desktop are changed unreadable unable restore without rebooting these are both and color drivers large and small fonts dos win emm and smartdrv installed like the speed the card and have had other problems any ideas thanks steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident driver please excuse faq but new trident based card claims have support drivers with card indicate several drivers diskette windows does not make all drivers diskette available configuration dialog box any suggestion thanx please mail dfeldman uswest com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	change icons forever anyone knows how can change icon forever and ever mean not only the program manager thanks advance alejandro cifuentes acifuent isluga puc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini article apr news uit odin nosubdomain nodomain svein pedersen writes nead utility for updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows find any ftp host svein windows there built called sysedit exe that just what you need windows don know
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	color monochrome walther have look the maximum resolution the combination the video card and screen would have without flickering only suggest using the color screen does without flickering this not too small for your tastes personally prefer the mono screen always have quite few windows open you only run one program time rarely switch maybe the color surplus worth trading the smaller size you want develop programs you will always have check the colors used mono screen worst both worlds and was surprised how the colors looked choose color screen regards olaf winkelhake
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro confirmation have heard many things about the ati ultra pro card some have been positive but most are negative could people please confirm these interested the eisa version particular the card does not work system with ram the card works system with some switches set but much slower the card interlaced its bit true colour modes the latest build drivers still not work many cases this card the fastest full colour card for the money this card the greatest thing since sliced bread thanks for your feedback will summarize alan walford eos systems inc vancouver canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey uunet wimsey eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workgroup questions conven ram and licensing would very appreciative someone would answer few questions about windows for workgroups currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and conventional memory hog ver considering moving all our machines how much conventional ram does use over and above the driver for the network card have novell card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed does license check over the network ensure each machine running its own licenced copy note not want break the license agreement and will buy copy for each our machines just that would like try out first see meets our needs returning one opened copy much easier than returning opened copies you buy the upgrade windows for does replace all win you install does depend current win files install windows server when comes out will have any troubles with the machines when started this message was going ask only questions but got carried away stop now look forward your replies alan walford eos systems inc vancouver canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey uunet wimsey eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	serial printing been having problems few setups when printing serial printer dmp laser have used works and windows write the output from dos and send plain text output but anything fancy garbles just doesn output the exception outputting lserjet which appears fast enough receiving data not bother about handshaking messages sure not alone this tried most the print network manager options can think anyone had similar problems they cured and would like tell bout thanks john atherton
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quicken tobias managing your money article apr twg com twg com michael wiesenberg writes anyway anyone aware comparitive study the two programs can someone just give their own personal impressions maybe magazine january had review several personal finance management programe did computing january world december also had articles about quicken and managing your money can email you copies these articles you can find them your library been using managing your money for several years and have several friends who use quicken though not used myself overall impression that quicken financial accounts manager while managing your money will help you more completely manage your finances here are some features that believe managing your money and quicken share the ability keep records for each your financial accounts checking savings charge cash brokerage you can reconcile your account statements with the records the program keeps the ability make budget and track your spending against that budget checkfree module which will allow you use the checkfree bill paying service pay your bills via your modem the ability print checks your printer the ability keep loan records and set automatic loan payments the ability import stock quotations keep your brokerage accounts date know managing your money can this automatically via modem quicken probably can well but not sure about the ability export tax information popular tax preparation programs here are some features that believe managing your money has that quicken does not tax prediction module this looks your accounts and budget predict your tax liability for the coming year usefull fine tune your withholding uncle sam doesn get his due too early insurance and vital records module this place keep records your insurance policies well other vital records can also compute your life expectancy financial analysis module this computes compound interest effects inflation loan payments term interest yield maturity for bonds savings account yields days between dates and loan amortization schedules also has functions help you decide whether refinance your mortgage whether you can afford particular home whether particular rental property good investment whether you should buy lease rent and whether particular investment cash flow adequate for your situation this module can also help you plan for retirement and for helping your kids with their tuition net worth module this place record all your assets and liabilities your net worth can computed from this information any assets liabilities recorded other modules are automatically included here desk module this includes small word processor card file you can use store names addresses phone numbers and other vital information about friends and associates perpetual calander rudimentary calculator list reminder list appointment list and place record your phone calls for those who need track such things your appointments reminders and list can made display automatically when you start the program there are probably some things listed above that quicken has but almost sure that quicken doesn everything listed wrong sure hordes quicken devotees will flame crisp one thing that quicken has that managing your money does not yet have windows version meca software rumored working windows version managing your money for release late this year hope this information use you found managing your money very usefull program for keeping financial records the other hand know many people who are equally happy with quicken quicken has all the features you need want with you find any the managing your money features that quicken doesn have useful think well worth the price
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad swap file have memory have been running windows without swap file for several months will mathcad happy with this insist swap file
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows mature article cyen ponder jesse writes have you used mac system the answer positive you would know windows mature this silly unix mature depends who you ask and how you define mature system anything less mature than windows days ago people doubted that windows not real can see why they have such question windows confuses many people microsoft simulated mac but did lousy job for example you can not create hierarchy groups there way create group group you know how please tell why you need something like behierarchic create groups under the apple menu everyone knows that apple menu items are ripoff the program manager you want hierarchic program launcher there are lots available uncomplete documentation not easy find the reason why causes unpredictable error and this easy mac give break having spent hours moving system extensions around and restarting the mac see why certain app crashes all the time find this laughable group deleting file deleting after deleting group users have use file manager delete files but users forget delete some related files the disk will full nonsense files great ever hear aliases wonder why apple implemented them share problem once you create two windows doing compilation and editing some language good editor there will sharing problem you just can not open save the program loaded makes sense prevent from saving but not opening don follow means easy satisfy everybody but microsoft want keep their reputations they should evaluate the user interface more carefully before products distribute why that find the mac desktop incredibly annoying whenever use flame please yeah right you post flame bait yet ask for flames iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini article apr midway uchicago edu midway uchicago edu writes unless completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad sysedit exe found your system subdirectory edit you ini files you can add sysedit regedit program group they are windows programs the sysedit exe program cool because automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files edited possible get load other ini files drewster kimbark uchicago edu mail oddjob plymouth edu vms andys psc plymouth edu disclaimer any end user software that provides avenue for user the week modification programmability not user friendly
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro confirmation article razbbh eosvcr wimsey aew eosvcr wimsey alan walford writes have heard many things about the ati ultra pro card some have been positive but most are negative could people please confirm these interested the eisa version particular the card does not work system with ram the higher memory limits apply isa cards only far know the vlb and eisa version should have problems the card works system with some switches set but much slower again the memory aperture need only disabled you have more than ram eisa and vlb isa should not problem for you the card interlaced its bit true colour modes nope can use bit and bit all non interlaced the latest build drivers still not work many cases they aren perfect but are much improved don recall the last time which had leave mach mode ati gup mode and switch vga mode due software incompatibility this card the fastest full colour card for the money quite fast but whether not its the fastest open debate this card the greatest thing since sliced bread like daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms utexas edu dcoleman ccwf utexas edu the university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad swap file article apr ncar ucar edu baseball catch the fever scd ucar edu gregg walters writes have memory have been running windows without swap file for several months will mathcad happy with this insist swap file just got mathcad and the manual not clear the matter page least megabytes memory all memory about should configured xms least megabytes virtual memory common sense suggests that you should able run but the new mathcad kinda kooky and thus not subject the laws common sense dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms utexas edu dcoleman ccwf utexas edu the university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	gatewaying microsoft mail workgroups via here utah state university cooperative extension have been using for while now wanted talk the internet with the mail package got the smtp gateway you also need tcp transport package top that which utterly stupid but that what they require get the smtp gateway work you need dedicated for the gateway and you are looking remote access you need another dedicated for the remote mail stuff not have the remote mail going but you indicate that that what you want there glitch somewhere the system though don know mail the gateway the vax here campus that choking the mail that sent the scenario this the outgoing mail goes unix system which then routes the mail where needs that mail routed the vax the vax has problems some times receiving the mail most messages get through this way except someone has there mail the vax forwarded some other location that the main gotcha where ever the mail forwarded that person gets message header then message saying boudary error garbage code stuff you can stay away from sending vax you are the system people course say that the vax not the problem the gateway probably the problem anyone wants get help only for one support call until problem worked out phooey that say looking vigorously for better idea you forward any this and find out anything knew please drop note anyone the next itteration supposed have tcp built they say the netxt itteration good luck wes james email wesj extsparc agsci usu edu utah state university cooperative extension systems specialist umc voice logan fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows mature article snbs usenet ucs indiana edu comp windows advocacy writes you can not create hierarchy groups there way create group group you know how please tell get norton desktop put groups within groups groups the desktop icons the desktop etc chris ruckman ruckman oasys navy mil this sig brought you hull structures acoustics code your local chevrolet bottler carderock division nswc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tcp onpredir with windows hello are having troubles using the tcp onpredir printer redirection program with lpr support with the windows print manager the onpredir simply waits only the capture till the end the windows session while after some printer inactivity should start the printing does anybody uses this two programs together thanks zsolt zsolt bagoly dept atomic physics eotvos university budapest hungary mail zsolt hercules elte eltenet bagoly ludens elte eltenet internet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm been reading with much confusion about whether not use atmanager lately all the packages been buying have all included atmanager bonus some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that the ttfonts that come with win and you have decent amount fonts print creations out postcript dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well get some darn good copies good that there isn any diff whether not atmanager turned not worth run atm all especially with these better printer technologies and avdean
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more diamond has anyone experienced faint shadow all resolutions using this card only windows have replaced card and waiting latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu and winfax setup had ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control let products the market with many bugs what hassle running gateway thx dave
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for windows are there any window servers that can run under windows only know deskview but have not seen action are there any others thanks advance phil pmw lehigh edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc article csie nctu edu ghhwang csie nctu edu ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc risc used mean reduced instruction set computer true they still use the same acronym but only familiar what risc really means recently designed cpu general most risc cpus are like this large number more general purpose registers fixed instruction size usually bits instruction may make only one memory reference memory references must aligned there are delayed branches branch after the next instruction target prediction bit probably will won branch instructions may complete out order relative the instruction stream richard krehbiel richk grebyn com will for until amigados for the comes along
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini sorry did tell exactly what need need utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile the program run script under windows will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files meny find any ftp host svein
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how quickly switch between windows screen resolutions hydra gatech edu ccastco prism gatech edu constantinos malamas writes article qlr djl cbnewsl att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell how switch window screen resolution quickly and easily know that can back into install take look ftp cica indiana edu pub win util misc for program caleld vswitch zip close want you want you can get win think george referring switch zip the ftp pub win drivers video directory description reads switcher windows video mode switcher david white engineer goon fan son dad internet davidw auck irl cri fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ati ultra pro drivers bad ati ultra article apr cvdv mayo edu fisk cvdv mayo edu tom fisk stm writes article jldc news cso uiuc edu jroberts cso uiuc edu robertson writes does anybody know the ftp site with the latest windows drivers for the ati gup thanks the latest driver release and can found ftp cica indiana edu the pub win directory structure pro zip checked with ati bbs last nite and there were releases past have the ati local bus card and noticed that get garbage around the edges window when move has anybody else noticed this also have the local bus card also and don have any such problems with now but this the second card gotten the first card didn work vga mode correctly maybe they still have some quality control problems would suggest checking with ati went through the vendor bought the card from since the problem showed immediately never was able get through ati technical support number sure like the way the card performs though have the ati ultra pro local bus and fast even bpp mode cheers phil tom thomas fisk internet fisk mayo edu mayo clinic you don know where voice first street you going you never fax mail stop stm get there rochester philip carmack pcarmack kpc com kubota pacific computers inc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	running exe under windows preface novice user best the windows environment trying execute executable program which accesses btrieve database build ascii file when execute under windows the screen goes blank and locks the only way for return reset the machine does anyone have any insight what may have order for the program correctly under windows the way runs fine dos system gateway ati graphics ultra card any help would greatly appreciated rodger
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win font with macrons greetings from green new zealand are looking for windows font that will allow macrons hypen over vowels both upper and lower cases this can use maori characters windows applications thanks advance stuart inglis email directly tetaka waikato would the prefered method contact
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	borland paradox offer article cvbnetprime com tbelmont feds prime com tom belmonte writes considering buying borland paradox for windows since would like use database with windows don have use one yet for both work home use would like advantage borland until april offer this package everything that borland claims was wondering has anybody used this and have any opinions yes and pretty much what they claim haven had time try all considering the price even you decide you don like should saleable over the next months for what you have once the price goes all all very serviceable and humble opinion more powerful than access
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes everybody guess subject has said all getting boring looking those same old bmp files that came with windows wondering there any body has some beautiful bmp file can share maybe somebody can tell some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used have some unfortunately delete them all anyway could give some help please response different kinda wallpaper here what use think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo the lower right corner you will need vga think and have this sized for color screens use this your windows directory and not tile hope you enjoy
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes article sunb ocs edu eugene mpce edu writes article csie nctu edu ghhwang csie nctu edu ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that authority risc but clearly remember reading that the instruction set risc cpus rather large the difference addressing modes risc instruction sets are not orthogonal cisc the original riscs had small instruction sets and simple ones the idea was that every instruction should completable single clock cycle and have microcode and extensive pipelines few comparisons from patterson reduced instruction set computers cacm cpu year instructions microcode ibm dec vax ibm ucb risc stanford mips while researching for the vlsi vax dec discovered that the vax microcode there support the instruction set which accounted for mere all instructions executed the uvax subsetted the architecture onto single chip and used software emulator for these very complex instructions the full vlsi uvax included the entire instruction set was times more copmlex but only ranm faster cpu chips microcode transistors uvax vlsi uvax real deryk barker computer science dept camosun college victoria email dbarker camosun phone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	norton desktop smartcan norton util just purchased the norton desktop for windows and also have norton utilities when installed ndw wanted rem out the line that installed and the command invoke the image utility replaced the image command with new image command that invokes the version image that came with ndw this makes sense presumably the image version with ndw newer than the one with did not however install smartcan the autoexec now two questions will use the image data saved the newer version image invoked are the two version image compatable will erase protect use the info from smartcan and vice versa use both dos and windows and want make sure that when erase files either environment they are going protected from the experiments have run the two programs erase protect and smart erase don use each others info currently have both and smartcan loading within autoexec and don see any conflicts fyi norton desktop for windows version norton util version thanks for any help
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	character missing ttf word doesn show the period centred character indicate spaces use the ttfonts from coreldraw our editors need able see how many spaces are text but the character displayed large hollow box they overlap each other and characters each side which useless believe the character used the period centred this character shows with the windows charmap display the hollow box which tends confirm this have edited the corel font with fontmonger and changing the font graphics for the character makes difference the font output charmap altering the paragraph cedilla does alter their font graphics displayed however the character used indicate spaces the period centred character has anyone been able get this character displayed from coreldraw ttf russ sharp russ deakin edu fax deakin university school engineering technology geelong australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows help apr fel tno mveraart fel tno mario veraart writes umyin ccu umanitoba qing yin writes easy question for you windows gurus appreciate any help need write line help for our application don have windows software developer toolkit yet since just want build hlp file around windows help engine hope won that complicated anyway could someone kindly give some hints how build such line help does not take pages explain complicated would you help point out what would need vincent yin umyin ccu umanitoba you have developed your own windows application you must have sdk some sort that contains the exe exe file compile and generate hlp files out rtf files rtf files are generated wordprocessor like word for dos you not need the sdk what you need and can get free are location ftp cica indiana edu index pub win index first get pub win uploads what zip this contains the help compiler among other things free from microsoft then get these think these are free too dir pub win programr files hag zip whag zip wfwhlp zip these are shareware dir pub win util files hwab zip qdhelp zip qdtool zip dir pub win winword files drhelpev zip macros for word convert doc hlp files shiva shenoy mail shenoy iastate edu black dept aeem isu ames office shiva shenoy mail shenoy iastate edu black dept aeem isu ames office
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	losing dark colors icons here annoying problem whenever save icon which contains dark colors like dark red dark purple these colors are converted the bright colors this happens with every icon editor including the image editor that came with sdk don have this problem with bmp files either only with ico files icon libraries the problem with the icon colormap field the icon file header checking the file with binary editor can see that the masks are editing the colormap manually copying from another icon that didn edit can fix the colors does anybody know what may causing this problem thanks sadun anik illinois urbana champaign center for reliable and high performance computing mail anik crhc uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini odin fna svein pedersen writes sorry did tell exactly what need need utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile the program run script under windows will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files meny find any ftp host svein well the latest windows magazine there advertisement for program that will help you uninstall windows apps from your harddisk uninstaller but can used update network but only for deleting not adding changing their ini files uninstaller microhelp inc also looking for ini updater for network and far without any luck for the time being have been pushing dos and batch language its limit look into dos assumming that dos has the same command maybe even more less improved replace command use this update our users personal files with master set batch file that run everytime they invoke windows this basically overwrites their color schemes but does what need not neat but does the job looking for better solution though mike just relaying what know not for profit service mike bendtsen msbendts mtu edu elm apt ccli senior technical consultant hancock michigan technological university
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows mature why that find the mac desktop incredibly annoying whenever use because you are uptight many computer literate people see advantages each system you act like mac ate your cat lighten
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad swap file baseball catch the fever scd ucar edu gregg walters writes have memory have been running windows without swap file for several months will mathcad happy with this insist swap file presumeably you mean without permanent swap file windows needs swap file will upo and create one permanent one doesn exist permanent generally faster though don know why mathcad wouldn happy with either type ver and should any program conforming the win specification
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows slower using dos not system frank calloway
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	icons gone previous article hsano ulowell edu hitoshi sano says not sure this the proper place post this the icons win program manager have all dissapeared and need restore them the files all seem there the disk and think there must better way than installing everything thanks for any help hmmmmm you know this happened also not sure what caused think there might have been system error and dumped windows came back and all was well except groups program manager was empty all the grp files were the directory had remake the groups with the new and group selection all the icons and files inside the groups were still there and working fine just the groups had gone out program manager strange artin this communication sent artin university arizona tucson cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm article network ucsd edu adean weber ucsd edu anthony dean writes been reading with much confusion about whether not use atmanager lately all the packages been buying have all included atmanager bonus adobe has been doing this for years some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that the ttfonts that come with win and you have decent amount fonts print creations out postcript dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well get some darn good copies good that there isn any diff whether not atmanager turned not worth run atm all especially with these better printer technologies and there are some fonts that are only available fonts you have font that you want use use atm otherwise waste system resources personally use both mike lipsie work mlipsie merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond has anyone experienced faint shadow all resolutions using this card only windows have replaced card and waiting latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu and winfax setup had ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control let products the market with many bugs what hassle running gateway thx dave have used both version drivers for win and the new drivers have had none these problems gpf all have feeling that your problems are not with the card drivers the ati ultra drivers are considered some the most reliable the market and the ones seem quite good well maybe you should check bios problems your gateway know few people with gateway and all them have found some problem other with compatibility especially with graphics the only gpf have ever had can directly attributable using abusing applications even got the newest drivers from diamond when people started complaining still only have one small problem with them and that the hardware cursor slightly jumpy during writes reads the swap file greg bishop
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvtnet with ndis token ring possible use winqvt net machine that uses ndis connect token ring tried with older versions but got invalid packet class error something the like regards wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement fax dekenstraat leuven mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven belgium fdbaq kuleuven
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trumpet for windows other news readers looking for decent windows news reader given winvn since doesn work very well with the winsock dll the ibm tcp for dos what the status trumpet for windows will use the windows sockets liked dos but had abandon since started using ndis access our token ring results invalid class error bye wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement fax dekenstraat leuven mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven belgium fdbaq kuleuven
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond viper folks the end the summer planning getting new computer and have been poking around computer shopper anyway saw the ads for the diamond viper local bus memory million winmarks and was wondering anyone has had any experience with good bad not worth the money etc any information all would nice also few other questions anyone know good cheap monitor and what good rom drive that meets mpc standards and controlled via scsi how about tape drive scsi thanks for your time brent casavant bcasavan mailhost ecn uoknor edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	proteced mode looking for information how uses proteced mode the support
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini article apr plymouth edu oddjob plymouth edu andrew stoffel writes article apr midway uchicago edu midway uchicago edu writes unless completely misunderstanding you try using either notepad sysedit exe found your system subdirectory edit you ini files you can add sysedit regedit program group they are windows programs the sysedit exe program cool because automatically opens you win ini system ini autoexec bat and config sys files edited possible get load other ini files when the program run loads configuration files autoexec bat config sys win ini and system ini there open entry the file menu you can only edit these four files you need edit some other program ini file use notepad some other ascii editor wonder whether microsoft intended for sysedit used was just holdover from the testing period and they forgot take out the reason think this because there absolutely mention the manuals about this program and there online help for just about entry under the file menu the program looks like something that was intended for internal use only kind shame though would have made nice multi file replacement for notepad daniel silevitch dmsilev athena mit edu massachusetts institute technology
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trumpet for windows other news readers article apr liris tew kuleuven wimvh liris tew kuleuven wim van holder writes what the status trumpet for windows will use the windows sockets liked dos but had abandon since started using ndis access our token ring results invalid class error while not speak for peter tattam fairly sure planning winsock compliant version while this will definitely not make the initial public release wintrumpet will follow shortly thereafter currently wintrumpet very late beta looks like excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there also direct packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel cwru school medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telix problem when use telix kermit win use telix after exiting windows dos telix can not find the serial port you have some ideas how solve this problem where can find further information send email send the news group thanks dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	black screen death windows novell there are running node token ring with windows and novell every once while run into the black screen death phrase coined robert cringely recent infoworld column basically sometimes when you quit windows the screen goes black and you get nice little flashing cursor the top left corner your screen also sometimes when you exit dos the same effect occurs cringely hints that microsoft and novell has patch for windows virtual interrupt controller that may solve this neither company seems know what talking about when call them has anyone else noticed this phenomenon there fix for any response welcome peter sweeney psweeney miavx acs muohio edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telix problem when use telix kermit win use telix after exiting windows dos telix can not find the serial port you have some ideas how solve this problem where can find further information send email send the news group thanks dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	serial printing windows getting garbled output when serial printing thru windows works etc this has occurred several systems and goes laserjet used suspect that there need for handshaking this case due the capacity memory speed there problem printing from dos are there any obvious tweaks missing sure its not just with this problem thanks for reading john atherton
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows speaker sound driver article req unix portal com claebaur shell portal com tony annese writes article apr mnemosyne edu alee mnemosyne edu alec lee writes there ftp site where can get the speaker sound driver there sound exe file that claims the driver but suspicious since not drv file thats the file clarify little more sound exe self expanding archive which contains the driver which actually called speaker drv think ray
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mathcad swap file reposting and summarizing for your information additional comment this long have memory mhz intel math coprocessor and hard drive with free compression have been running mathcad under windows enhanced mode with ram drive smart drive and swap file permanent temporary for several months interested the faster mathcad but concerned about reported swap file requirements and the legitimacy mathsoft claim about increased speed users will mathcad run without swap file insist that use swap file far response less detailed description setup unrelated postings the more informed answers the net mail appear fuess llnl gov david fuess according mathsoft mathcad uses the swap file extensively not overburden the physical resources they say this actually win feature figure was indicated minimum but you might try anyway bert tyler satalink com bert tyler not all that certain that mathcad the culprit here have with main memory less for ramdisk and bit for dos session that opened part the startup process which have been running without any swapfile when installed the win subsystem from the march beta the sdk the win subsystem itself demanded the presence swapfile the only win program run date the bit version freecell that came with that subsystem gave windows small temporary swapfile leery files that must remain fixed locations hard disk and all seems well bca ece cmu edu brian anderson what win upgraded mathcad and installed directory for win under windows system during the upgrade told that win was required case student umn edu steven case mathcad makes use the win libraries you probably heard about win bit windows library that provides much the windows functionality support for threads and multitasking and such but can run under windows rhynetc zardoz chem appstate edu thomas rhyne also have ram and indeed mathcad insisted permanent swapfile would not run otherwise bishop baeyer chem fsu edu greg bishop mathcad absolutely requires ram with swap file ram with swap file will give you not enough memory error the swap file less than major resource hog you not load the symbolic processor the smart math takes about ram real virtual just load again due the win libraries seems that addition the system requirements shown mathsoft advertisement for that you need swap file possibly big looks like would just need swap file and would need choose can between faster permanent swap file slower temporary swap file apparently win subsystem ships with mathcad how much disk space does this require also received these answers mfdjh uxa ecn bgu edu dale hample you got megs ram why not configure megs ram disk for mathcad dos permits different bootup configurations can mathcad win configured use such ram drive instead swap file not don see how using dos for alternate bootup would provide windows with this swap file some time back remember discussion about the issues using ram drive support swap file but thought this involved slower systems have dos but for various reasons have not yet done full installation the way full installation dos required avail oneself the alternate bootup feature which files from the installation disks are required wild access digex com wildstrom presumeably you mean without permanent swap file windows needs swap file will upo and create one permanent one doesn exist permanent generally faster though don know why mathcad wouldn happy with either type ver and should any program conforming the win specification far has been enough ram avoid the overhead running any swap file have been running mathcad under windows without one
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what can anyone tell how chicago windows would differ from believe not not trying start flame war here simply curious there going any feature advantage either these products not consider the fact that has uncle bills seal approval much feature one difference will probably the same difference between and windows now one will likely have lot software available for and one won emulation with the inevitable incompatibilities that crop spite all the contrary claims just doesn count when you have use certain software package that doesn quite run properly under the emulation developers want channel their resources toward platform that has large installed base and case like that the platform that most successfully marketed regardless its relative sophistication will win lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm good that there isn any diff whether not atmanager turned not worth run atm all especially with these better printer technologies and there are some fonts that are only available fonts you have font that you want use use atm otherwise waste system resources you need use service bureau and they only set use type fonts from what heard pure hearsay the results outputting fonts type not good using high quality type fonts the first place lamont downs downs nevada edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows slower using dos article hplvec lvld com calloway hplvec lvld com frank calloway writes not system frank calloway nor mine either them david fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	boca xga woes having some interesting problems with boca graphics card which based the cirrus logic chipset not sure exactly which one the problem follows use any windows driver except for the colour driver colour colour the image screen becomes too tall amount resizing the monitor will make fit and use excel with the colour driver hangs soon loads anyone out there used this card experienced anything similar please reply mail and will post any solutions here regards simon simon bernstein man condemned free sartre university natal durban bernstei shrike und simonfish irc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help greenleaf commlib has anyone had experience with the new greenleaf commlib can even get their demo winterm run baud without dropping characters tnx steve steve alpert ggn idx systems corp boston massachusetts sra idx com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	filemanager strange sizes summary line have just noticed filemanager doing something strange recently usually the line the bottom the filemanager the status bar guess displays the total disk space and the total number bytes for the current selection select whole bunch files will get exact byte count recently notice incorrectly displays this count truncating select file that say bytes correctly displays bytes select select file that bytes displays bytes not kbytes just bytes select will report only bytes the selection select over meg worth files say reports bytes got problem with displaying more than characters system memory stacker dos win run the latest virus scanners scan prot and they didn report anything could have unknowingly altered something that controls the formatting the status bar the filemanger nicholas masika masika bnr bell northern research ottawa fax opc development operations
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	save hard disk allocation error cross linked brad banko writes while running the quick compiler dos window under windows this evening got program has violated system integrity close all applications exit windows and restart your computer error gawd love windows there easy way restore everything working order what might some better approaches you probably want delete any damaged executables and reload them fresh data files should examined and repaired what might have caused this does the smartdrv cache make more vulnerable suspicious hard drive caches especially when they cache data writing you not stupid smartdrive caches things and windows also runs swap file which may contain data also all this pretty risky stuff environment the straightforward approach would run chkdsk with the option fix the disk and then looks like would probably have reinstall windows and few other things reasonably accurate prediction here brief description how dos stores files there are three pieces file the directory entry the fat chain and the data area you can think these sheet lined notebook paper sheet graph paper and stack cards the directory entry notebook paper holds the file name actual size and first cluster number also holds some other information that not important right now the file allocation table fat chain graph paper tells where find the actual data each square graph paper holds number the number zero the cluster associated with this box available holds magic number either the last piece file bad unuseable spot the disk any other number tells which cluster contains the next section the file the data area cards where the actual information stored the data area organized clusters fixed size storage doled out chunks one cluster each your case one cluster bytes cluster filled another allocated read file you first look the directory entry get the starting cluster number now you read the data from that cluster next look the fat entry for the cluster you just read this will tell you the cluster number for the next chunk the file naturally these numbers are usually sequential but they can jump around and even backwards continue reading one cluster time you walk this chain through the fat until you hit the marker which says the last cluster the file chkdsk the dos utility that checks the sanity and coherence the directories and the fat and can bludgeon most flaws into submission doesn have any intelligence you have double check anything fixes now let bit post mortem gfx vpic cvpic exe gfx vpic vpic txt gfx vpic video cfg gfx vpic orcpro cfg gfx vpic vga cfg game goose bird winmisc adv winadv exe allocation error size adjusted all these files have sizes according the fat which don match the size reported their directory entries chkdsk will alter the directory entries match the fat size other words the directory entry for cvpic exe may say the file bytes long but chkdsk found fat chain clusters attached numbers obviously are made lost allocation units found chains bytes disk space would freed disk space was found which allocated the fat but not attached any directory entry chkdsk gives you the option converting these lost chains files you can then examine the files file chk through file chk and rename discard them you tell chkdsk not convert them files then those clusters will simply marked available the fat gfx vpic cvpic exe cross linked allocation unit spart par cross linked allocation unit these files are both referencing the same data cluster obviously one them least must wrong interesting note that spart par your windows swap file fix this you should copy each cross linked file new name this will fix the cross link giving the files unique data spaces now delete the cross linked files examine the copies and try assemble them properly good luck hint missing pieces are likely found those lost chains the top bytes total disk space bytes hidden files bytes directories bytes user files bytes available disk your disk pretty close full this may the actual cause the problem perhaps windows needed expand its swapfile amount which exceeded available disk space any case the short summary that something trashed your fat there are utilities that can mirror your fat and help repair damage after something like this but you have run them before the problem occurs sorry gordon hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi vote straight ticket procrastination party dec gordon hlavenka cgordon vpnet chi vote straight ticket procrastination party dec
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond speedstar driver for article edu rem buitc edu robert mee writes looking for win driver set for diamond speedstar video card does anybody know archive site that has these looked cica and had drivers for the stealth card and for generic cards but not one specifically for the speedstar there one has diamond dropped the speedstar out the driver development loop just looked cica yesterday and noticed that they didn have anything but seem remember seeing something wuarchive the mirrors msdos windows directory think got drivers from america online though mmeltzer wam umd edu marc meltzer president the meltz inc our job play games our hobby consult
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cirrus logic graph card comp windows misc gardner kosmos wcc govt andy gardner writes article qms news berlin wong berlin wolfgang jung writes version drivers are due release cirrus soon unfortunately their not available via ftp you have dial their bbs the usa this from using modem cut down phone bills took around minutes download the driver could you please upload any the ftp sites such ftp ciaca indiana edu and announce here this will benefit people does not have access their bbs usa like thanks lot beng hang tay
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	truetype fonts that display but not print article apr mintaka lcs mit edu avinash silver lcs mit edu avinash chopde writes just installed new truetype font under windows but though all the applications display the font correctly the screen quite few them fail print out the document correctly laserjet non postscript printer when use the font coreldraw the document prints correctly assume coreldraw knows that the font has downloaded the printer but when use the windows accessory write the printer prints square boxes place the characters the new font yet write does display the font correctly the screen looked through all the windows and laserjet manuals but got nowhere all them just make the statement that truetype fonts will print exactly you see them the screen assume windows knows that font has downloaded automatically but how make that appreciate any help assume you using the driver available from cica zip bring the setup screen the printer through control panel click the options button brings another screen choices change the graphics mode from raster and check the box print truetype graphics this only available when you choose raster now you should able print all your truetype fonts correctly good luck lei shao cunixa columbia edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary ati graphics ultra questions etc those interested the new ati ultra cards had posted some questions regarding the new ati ultra pro cards and had asked confirmation some opinions this message summary the responses thanks all you that replied the card does not work system with ram the higher memory limits apply isa cards only far know the vlb and eisa version should have problems pretty sure from experience that the isa version doesn work systems with over ram there supposed way switching the memory aperture feature off prevent this but apparently doesn work posted some help messages the net and people indicated that the eisa card didn have this problem false the vlb card which have allows you set memory aperture over using their configuration software messing with jumpers necessary the problem probably valid only for isa cards the card works system with some switches set but much slower again the memory aperture need only disabled you have more than ram eisa and vlb isa should not problem for you dunno depends the bus yes isa eisa localbus the card interlaced its bit true colour modes nope can use bit and bit all non interlaced yes according magazine they tested local bus version that does bit which may may not interlaced not for the pro sometimes for the plus some modes may run only interlaced certain monitors this has nothing with bits only with screen size note that for bit color and windows you must have megs memory size calculations notwithstanding the latest build drivers still not work many cases they aren perfect but are much improved don recall the last time which had leave mach mode ati gup mode and switch vga mode due software incompatibility true many people recommended going back build they appear excellent but have few bugs for example certain graphs with dashed lines mathcad not print correctly though they display the screen they are about par for fancy cards other accelerated cards also have bugs overall like the card even driver performance somewhat less than satisfactory running the color mode that all driver for october version seems allow will say this that color performance not quite nice diamond stealth vram but have not been able try out lot the options the old driver this card the fastest full colour card for the money quite fast but whether not its the fastest open debate yes admit was very very fast bit mode which what wanted use for too bad crashed many different ways every minutes depends many many things this card the greatest thing since sliced bread like well magazine seems think yes this appears true greatest thing since sliced bread doubt better cards are coming out who knows maybe ati will come out with something faster yet several reviews read rated one pycon winjet card superior performer cheaper price except for availability drivers which pycon was developing that time magazine about two months back overall the card has lot potential but you have able use that the end the questions these were the most discussed items this group thought they needed confirmation for those you not familiar with the card have included summary here from ati since don have graphics ultra yet ati graphics ultra plus accelerated colours true colour multimedia video acceleration for indeo video rle and video compressed stretch full motion video windows full size fast vga includes button mouse isa versions only anti aliased fonts avail colour mode only think real time pan and zoom across large virtual windows desktop around length card size priced from ati graphics ultra pro everything graphics ultra plus faster performance with vrams accelerated colours non interlaced available isa eisa and microchannel priced from ati technologies hope this summary can use you not associated with ati technologies any way other than having used their previous ati ultra card for few years which generally liked alan walford eos systems inc vancouver canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey uunet wimsey eosvcr aew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	yowza sloooowwww printing from dos also had simular problem with nec went away when turned the print directly parallel port option the printer setup apallette mencsh tract und gott lacht yaturner netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows errors and bad memory last question for the year have mail order name notebook with meg ram never have problems with huge ramdisk when running desqview but win and constantly crash most commonly citing memory parity error the only thing can turn off and boot cmos ticks off counts all the memory every startup and there never problem with this either could bug windows copy instead the hardware remember having some disk error problems when installing there any change could make lessen the frequency likelyhood this happening think win win produce different crashes but both crash frequently nonetheless know this pain but please answer email because home account doesn have and will stop asking questions now thank you chet pager chetter ucthpx uct
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bar code fonts looking for some bar code fonts especially code did anybody know any ftp sites bbs that can download these types fonts please email you have any info thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos vfintd and windows sys ini does anyone know what the vfintd device used for windows under the enh section device dos vfintd after upgrading dos several machines different types some include some don any ideas
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	books for writing thesis wfw was wondering anyone out there knows any books that give helpful hints and tips writing thesis papers wfw know about the dissertation template that comes with word but want more would like have tips how use all the seq bookmark index chapter fields that are available word have looked through the help files etc but they really don explain whole lot will post the results that means email first get lot different suggestions since think this might help lots crazy grad students such myself thanks brian servis how you change the font that help uses when printing topic the default choppy and hard read servis author ecn purdue edu happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what say may not what think what say may not the pedestrian had idea which what purdue thinks way ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trumpet for windows other news readers article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes article apr liris tew kuleuven wimvh liris tew kuleuven wim van holder writes what the status trumpet for windows will use the windows sockets stuff deleted currently wintrumpet very late beta looks like excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there also direct packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel cwru school medicine cleveland ohio fax what gonna cost ginny mcbride oregon health sciences university mcbride ohsu edu networks technical services the purpose writing inflate weak ideas obscure poor reasoning and inhibit clarity with little practice writing can intimidating and impenetrable fog academia here come calvin hobbes
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for windows xview from ncd hcl exceed from hummingbird software all opinions expressed are own because nobody else wants them jls antares larc nasa gov jon sweet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cica mirror there ftp cica indiana edu mirror anyware that isn busy thanks phil trodwell this space happy ram goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvtnet with ndis token ring article apr liris tew kuleuven wimvh liris tew kuleuven wim van holder writes possible use winqvt net machine that uses ndis connect token ring tried with older versions but got invalid packet class error something the like how are you attempting that are you using the dis pkt program this provides packet driver top the ndis driver thomas beagle thomas datamark work technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen home wellington hound for hire will work for dog biscuits
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini article apr news uit svein pedersen odin fna writes sorry did tell exactly what need need utility for automatic updating deleting adding changing ini files for windows the program should run from dos batchfile the program run script under windows will use the utility for updating the win ini and other files meny find any ftp host svein you are managing novell network get the network management tools provided either sabre software automated design systems among the many features you find utilities that can help you manage ini files stored users workstations home directories this commercial software and well worth the money date have not found anything available via ftp that could compare reply the address sig for more info stephen gibson system support specialist sonoma state university email gibsonst sonoma edu stephen gibson sonoma edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speeding windows have with megs memory have noticed that lately when use programs like wpfw corel draw computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can increase performance what should turn off will not loading wallpapers stuff like that help when comes the running speed windows and the programs that run under thanx advance derek derek serianni mail djserian flash lakeheadu sociologist miles chicago got full tank lakehead university gas half pack cigarettes dark and thunder bay ontario wearing sunglasses elwood blues
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows and multiple monitors apart working gathering data the way that users use computers this involves getting subjects type and use mouse want able watch what they are doing without being the same room would ideal could watch the session another monitor without the subjects knowledge believe that spliting the monitor cable will only work for short distances will need approx away the cable travels the are connected tcp network and run windows there any software that will allow watch what happening another thanks regards jon gough trust project
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	order files written when exitting windows trying pin point hardware problem with disk maxtor group files get corrupted regular basis only happens this drive had only one corrupt file over year and was under the control winword bit disk access and smartdrive are off since installation dblspace problem has turned from annoyance reason for murder since the most frequent files corrupted are the grp files are these the last thing written when exitting windows also are there any shareware utilities available that more thorough job than dos ndd etc dos and win compatable thanks mike hayes knowledge good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech thank you groucho marx day the races driven banging head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how quickly switch between windows screen resolutions article qlr djl cbnewsl att com slg slgsun att com the idealistic cynic writes can someone out there tell how switch window screen resolution quickly and easily know that can back into install but what really like have the ability just change couple startup configuration files and have the resolution changed already have both video drivers that need system that isn problem thanks sean sean gilley sean gilley att com use this address all others bounce there shareware program called switch zip don remember wuarchive wustl edu ftp cica indiana edu easy use and does the job with problem eric ebosco oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows speaker sound driver article apr mnemosyne edu alee mnemosyne edu alec lee writes there ftp site where can get the speaker sound driver there sound exe file that claims the driver but suspicious since not drv file thanks alec lee the sound exe actually self extracting script which includes the drv file works great eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trumpet for windows other news readers article mcbride ohsu edu mcbride ohsu edu ginny mcbride writes article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes currently wintrumpet very late beta looks like excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there also direct packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim what gonna cost again not speak for peter tattam but understanding that will shareware status trumpet for dos and imagine that the registration fees will similar also believe that new version trumpet for dos will released sometime the near future ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel cwru school medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	emm exe and windows and dos previous article rudim kuleuven rudi maelbrancke says windows created permanent swap file win recommended that bit access use emm exe after win startup have memory free leave emm exe out config sys have memory free and windows recommends swap file think you need the emm exe noems this will let the expanded mem active but not use any therefore this will give you more extended mem for windows yet have all the bases covered use dos with memmaker have internal memory and not use dos not familiar with this does anybody knows why this happening possibly win needs some umb manage virtual memory true which umb those that emm can find without including suspicious parts need optimized dos environment because develop applications for dos using windows programming environment rudi artin this communication sent artin university arizona tucson cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	does win use math processor has one does windows use math processor not talking about specific apps but the you want call that itself please respond email peter schwenk schwenk cis udel edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can use the mouse non windows applications under windows wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell how possible work with the mouse non windows application which runs window use windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines something else please mail your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart very simple you have have the mouse com mouse sys loaded dos before you run windows note that you don need have these files loaded use the mouse windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workgroup questions conven ram and licensing article abh eosvcr wimsey aew eosvcr wimsey alan walford writes would very appreciative someone would answer few questions about windows for workgroups currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and conventional memory hog ver considering moving all our machines how much conventional ram does use over and above the driver for the network card about kbyte without novell support have novell card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed does license check over the network ensure each machine running its own licenced copy note not want break the license agreement and will buy copy for each our machines just that would like try out first see meets our needs returning one opened copy much easier than returning opened copies you buy the upgrade windows for does replace all win you install does depend current win files nearly all install windows server when comes out will have any troubles with the machines run mixed wnt beta and problem apart from printer sharing beta problem when started this message was going ask only questions but got carried away stop now had problems with mouse drivers using where windows didn seems more critical about was actualy port problem with the network card running changed now everything allright think has with the ami bios well look forward your replies alan walford eos systems inc vancouver canada tel aew eosvcr wimsey uunet wimsey eosvcr aew ralf rutherford telecom aust mhsnet rruther cssc melb tansu com network services snail blackburn clayton vic customised software solutions australia center melbourne phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speeding windows djserian flash lakeheadu reincarnation elvis writes have with megs memory have noticed that lately when use programs like wpfw corel draw computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can increase performance what should turn off will not loading wallpapers stuff like that help when comes the running speed windows and the programs that run under thanx advance derek make sure your hard drive defragmented this will speed more than just windows btw use something like norton tools think that leaving the wall paper out will use less ram and therefore will speed your machine but could very will wrong this there good chance you already done this but not may speed things good luck morgan bullard coewl cen uiuc edu mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu derek serianni mail djserian flash lakeheadu sociologist miles chicago got full tank lakehead university gas half pack cigarettes dark and thunder bay ontario wearing sunglasses elwood blues
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	comm drv replacement there was recent post about bbs where you could download replacement for comm drv win that fixed lot the problems with high speed modems does anyone know ftp site where can get thanks alec lee alec lee aslee diana cair edu alee edu sexy but what wrong with being sexy nigel tufnel spinal tap
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	filemanager strange sizes summary line apr bmers bnr masika bnr nicholas masika writes have just noticed filemanager doing something strange recently usually the line the bottom the filemanager the status bar guess displays the total disk space and the total number bytes for the current selection select whole bunch files will get exact byte count recently notice incorrectly displays this count truncating select file that say bytes correctly displays bytes select select file that bytes displays bytes not kbytes just bytes select will report only bytes the selection select over meg worth files say reports bytes got problem with displaying more than characters system memory stacker dos win run the latest virus scanners scan prot and they didn report anything could have unknowingly altered something that controls the formatting the status bar the filemanger sounds like something one may have set the separator contol panel under international this makes look like and file manager chopping off what thinks the decimal part the file size becomes and again file manager confused the decimal points where there should commas chopping off everything the right the first period tony debari fqdn tonyd ssc sbwk uucp uunet ssc tonyd ghrw skip bowler captain usenet fantasy bowling league team
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	quicken tobias managing your money never had quicken but did use mym early days have money for windows now and financial planning package called wealthbuilder reality technologies and money magazine also taxes with turbo tax all these packages are good their own way but none them really support doing what really need manage finances the first company that comes along with windows based package that manages budgets and accounts manages loans calculates taxes uses all the above and knowledge about investing philosophy help invest the right investment vehicles and integrates all together will have business for life ken khackbarth attmail com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cornerstone dualpage driver wanted looking for window driver for cornerstone dualpage cornerstone technology inc video card does anybody know that has these there one thanks for any info nis nis kelder estonian biocentre tkelder kask ebc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	printer security mark juric programs mjuric uga edu university georgia athens georgia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cica mirror find that always almost anyway busy when dial but try repeatedly usually only tries always get connected
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse com under windows pursued and researched this question over the last month because have the same requirements you and the long and short that the windows mouse drivers don accept mice any but com and com using irq irq unless you buy special drivers from someone who has them talked mouse systems who say their driver doesn support other than com and com above but who claim releasing one that will soon the other alternative seems possible but one case prohibitively expensive port card for and the other the author powerbbs for windows claim have port serial card with buffered uarts and drivers for windows match com irq for the second paragraph hearsay because haven checked out yet but intend soon can free hope this will save you some steps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm article network ucsd edu adean weber ucsd edu anthony dean writes been reading with much confusion about whether not use atmanager lately all the packages been buying have all included atmanager bonus some desktop publishing using pagemaker and coreldraw coreldraw comes with nifty laser disk that contains over diff types add that the ttfonts that come with win and you have decent amount fonts print creations out postcript dpi resolution with the resolution enhancement technology and well get some darn good copies good that there isn any diff whether not atmanager turned not worth run atm all especially with these better printer technologies and atm will nothing for your truetype fonts your truetype fonts are sufficient for your needs don run atm have lot fonts that can install either type postscript under atm truetype have noticed that truetype font files are least larger than their type equivalents you are using disk compressor though aware that truetype fonts will compress whereas type fonts will not they are encrypted with dpi laser printer the artificial bold version truetype font indistingishable from the original forcing install the actual bold and bold italic etc variants want use them type postscript fonts under atm generate visually distinct bold variant from the base font realize that the artificial bold font that atm generates aesthetically inferior the hand generated bold truetype variant but sufficient for needs and not having install bold variants saves disk space uncompressed bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	many people one machine have several people sharing machine and would like set separate environments under windows for each them there some way setting things separate desktops directories for each them ideally like totally separate virtual machines willing settle for less and may end having batch files that copy ini files around depending who wants use the machine mark alas setup doesn work you don have network
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trnasfering binary files from terminal unix attempting transfer files from home computer running windows terminal workstation school the file transfer protocol home kermit for binary files running kermit the workstation school and setting the file transfer protocol binary unable upload files school but can download files from school home during download terminal displays ther retrying message several times then the message verify you using the correct protocol anyone have any ideas how fix either mail post this group thanks advance brian anderson pens make row
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	order files written when exitting windows article apr ucsu colorado edu hayesj rintintin colorado edu hayes james michael writes trying pin point hardware problem with disk maxtor group files get corrupted regular basis only happens this drive had only one corrupt file over year and was under the control winword bit disk access and smartdrive are off since installation dblspace problem has turned from annoyance reason for murder are you using fastopen you are disable had lot problems with fastopen corrupting weird things including the windows permanent swap file when were using since the most frequent files corrupted are the grp files are these the last thing written when exitting windows indeed they are advanced personal measure tells they are accessed just before shell dll also are there any shareware utilities available that more thorough job than dos ndd etc dos and win compatable really like spinrite and plus tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond greetings had bunch problems with the opening dos window the desktop can occasionally result the windows blowing into set horizontal lines hashing the entire desktop nothing can recover this except completely exit from windows the other irritating problem that windows that scroll often overwrite lines rather than actually scrolling was printed without this seems only happen communications programs but can nail down any further than that note though that the comms programs don have communicating even just scrolling back through capture buffers displaying disk files these programs causes the problem prior the latest rev word perfect for windows wpwin would sometimes blow and the error message would cite the video driver the source the problem still seen this but only once twice with wpwin dave zimmerman opinions are own
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	searching for phonetic font searching for phonetic truetype font for windows anybody knows one please mail thanks dipl inform dietmar weidlich ifado ardeystr weidlich arb phys uni dortmund dortmund phone koennten sie das fax mal eben erledigen
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace manager for win are there any workspace managers out there for windows workspace manager mean something like the apollo workstations have multiple workspaces under there window the bottom the screen which allows you select different workspaces overcomes the problem having stacks windows open the one screen instead you can spread them amongst different workspaces which act like independent screens and you can flick between them thanks advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	searching for phonetic font weidlich arb phys uni dortmund weidlich writes searching for phonetic truetype font for windows anybody knows one please mail thanks dipl inform dietmar weidlich ifado ardeystr weidlich arb phys uni dortmund dortmund phone koennten sie das fax mal eben erledigen yes looking for phonetic font too you know one please mail too thanks advance patrick hudepohl amsterdam the netherlands
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows for workgroups and lan workplace hey sounds great does that mean that works with odi thought uses ndis wfwg does use ndis but cooperates well with the ndis shim for odi heard that fast ndis direct problem that lan workplace with all its drivers uses most umbs hate have load many more drivers make work along the additional tsr load minimal think eat another total this worth since allows get windows box novell hasn released decent novell client yet share through wfwg box this solution very usable
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	decompiler subject says all any exist are they shareware where phil trodwell this space happy ram goddam volt cattle for rent prod into that tub with you right now but not cheap this radio hunter thompson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows speaker sound driver tony annese claebaur shell portal com wrote article apr mnemosyne edu alee mnemosyne edu alec lee writes there ftp site where can get the speaker sound driver there sound exe file that claims the driver but suspicious since not drv file thats the file self extracting archive run and extracts drv file michael groeten uit michael schaap nederland mscha ctp com ctp sherrif inc dept damn good coffee and hot
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need longer filenames apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote there utility out there that will let use filenames longer than the standard format please email please mail too thanks howard hfeldman infoserv com howard feldman mind eye inc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can use the mouse non windows applications under windows kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell how possible work with the mouse non windows application which runs window use windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines something else please mail your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart very simple you have have the mouse com mouse sys loaded dos before you run windows note that you don need have these files loaded use the mouse windows one addition this don know applies everybody for microsoft dpi mouse work with windowed dos apps had use the driver that came with windows version didn allow for some reason
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files has anybody gotten this bmp work try uudecode but get input file error and picture anybody casey
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hard drive compression stacker superstor etc was wondering any one knew how the various hard drive compression utilities work hard drive getting full and don want have buy new one what intrested speed ease use amount compression and any other aspect you think might important never use one these things before thanks morgan bullard coewl cen uiuc edu mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can use the mouse non windows applications under windows article ucsu colorado edu gonzaled ucsu colorado edu lgv writes kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell how possible work with the mouse non windows application which runs window use windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines something else please mail your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart very simple you have have the mouse com mouse sys loaded dos before you run windows note that you don need have these files loaded use the mouse windows one addition this don know applies everybody for microsoft dpi mouse work with windowed dos apps had use the driver that came with windows version didn allow for some reason could never find the microsoft mouse driver windows installation disks but dos also has version mouse com stephen thomas tridom email sat eng tridom com attmail tridom sat
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should just venting steam sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts and communications hfac brigham young university provo hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows access for the blind are developing windows based product that uses full screen window display rows textual data there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and will post summary this group thanks for any help john bruno
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows access for the blind article apr cci cci com jfb cci cci com john bruno writes from jfb cci cci com john bruno subject windows access for the blind date thu apr gmt are developing windows based product that uses full screen window display rows textual data there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and will post summary this group thanks for any help john bruno apparently microsoft came out with new product braille suppose wytiwig offense marc trottier mtrottie emr emr
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	postscript file viewer worker mine needs convert postscript file form readable ascii windows dos does anybody know utility that will this have vague memory shareware utility someone mentioned once thanks for any info barry
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for printer driver looking for itoh printer driver for windows does anybody happen know where could find such beast thanks advance jerry look signature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for printer driver jeremi ualberta william jeremiah writes looking for itoh printer driver for windows does anybody happen know where could find such beast slight clarification that should printer driver for the itoh lips laser printer thanks again thanks advance jerry look signature
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	diamond article apr condor navsses navy mil zimm condor navsses navy mil writes greetings had bunch problems with the opening dos window the desktop can occasionally result the windows blowing into set horizontal lines hashing the entire desktop nothing can recover this except completely exit from windows the other irritating problem that windows that scroll often overwrite lines rather than actually posted similar query and got these replies which testing far good turn hardware scrolling off before going into windows xmode scrolloff the pif file for dos window set emulate text mode get the latest drivers from the diamond bbs cica dates are steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can use the mouse non windows applications under windows article apr ucsu colorado edu gonzaled ucsu colorado edu lgv writes one addition this don know applies everybody for microsoft dpi mouse work with windowed dos apps had use the driver that came with windows version didn allow for some reason for logitech rodents use the lmouse driver that comes with windows also you need using video driver that supports use the mouse both the vga and supervga that come with windows will support both these are color drivers you lucky the manufacturer your video card might have driver that compatable and will support mouse steve stephen guerke coord computer resources sguerke brahms udel edu university delaware parallel program stephen guerke mvs udel edu georgetown ilv udelvm udel edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how hold the control window object hope the right group using objectwindows version trying get some date processed window object however when invoking the window object the calling program gives the control the window object and keeps executing the next statement the source code may look like the following class mywindow public twindow void mycallingprog could the calling program function mywindow mywinobj mywinobj new mywindow getapplication makewindow mywinobj mywinobj show shownormal next statement want the program wait here until mywinobj closed that can get some data back from mywinobj specified the window style popupwindow didn help there any other way execute the window object that the calling program won give the control any help would appreciated thanks jun talk the lord with through windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telix problem dericks plains nodak edu dale erickson writes when use telix kermit win use telix after exiting windows dos telix can not find the serial port you have some ideas how solve this problem where can find further information send email send the news group thanks you may have define your serial ports under windows think the control panel ports options dale erickson dericks plains nodak edu mattias mattias hembruch views not necessarily reflect those the tse mail mhembruc tse com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	midi files win and soundblaster the cybard dudek acsu buffalo edu wrote have computer with soundblaster card running microsoft windows have the driver set properly play normal sounds wav files etc want play midi files through the media player that included with windows know have set the patch maps something the midi mapper the control panel know nothing about midi this the way get feet wet how set windows that can play midi files you install the soundblaster windows drivers correctly and have the latest drivers the media player should setup play files authored microsoft multimedia midi authoring standard general midi see the section the back the voyetra manual the soundblaster midi upgrade kit you find that midi files exist with all kinds different mappings don expect them always sound correct without using some kind midi file editor such voyetra sequencer plus you can attempt use the midi mapper remap the patches for soundblaster but since you cannot modify the sbfm drv you are allways stuck with the instruments that come with this driver unless you can find editor for making modifications the instrument settings sbfm drv would suggest you locate the early version soundblaster drivers that were mapped voices and the later drivers that are mapped the general midi voices david thomas dudek pwxs ubvms bitnet the cybard state university dudek sun acsu buffalo edu new york music the food love buffalo play shakespeare
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trumpet for windows other news readers where ftp site for trumpet other than wuarchive umich something off the beaten path thanks malcolm
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wanted sample source for editing controls everyone would like get example program source code get started with simple editor similar windows dialog editor but lot simplified can someone point source such programming windows book example program comes with windows sdk from microsoft borland would greatly appreciate all want able place edit control combobox listbox window and able drag and resize anyone has written similar program and don mind sharing code ideas would appreciate very much thnx advance manu das please send directly manu oas olivetti com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	speeding windows article thunder lakeheadu djserian flash lakeheadu reincarnation elvis writes have with megs memory have noticed that lately when use programs like wpfw corel draw computer boggs down and becomes really sluggish what can increase performance what should turn off will not loading wallpapers stuff like that help when comes the running speed windows and the programs that run under thanx advance derek you can try defraging your disk more often definitely will help speed things megs smartdrv also good idea with the amount memory you have and use fastdisk bit access you not already hope that help ngo
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows disk drive test availabel their freeware hard drive utility that can handle compressed ide drive without screwwing need document occasional failures reading writing check overall integrity disk hardware and sectors believe that all problems with dos windows can isolated drive getting occasional corrupted files even with smartdrive bit access turned off had these problems under dos only with drive drive may have had one failure but that file was under the control win winword drive all utilities available report problems dos ndd another symptom took forever and kicked out with suspension till ndd run times thanks mike hayes knowledge good faber college motto www knowledge and thoroughness rensselear poly motto unemployed tech thank you groucho marx day the races driven banging head against engineering physics for years
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet article apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd stanford edu robert kayman writes hello fellow netters asking for your collected wisdom help decide which printer should purchase the canon bubblejet the deskjet thought rather than trust the salesperson would benefit more from relying those who use these printers daily and use them their fullest potential and figure all you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now would greatly appreciate any information you could render the dpi the canon bubblejet the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which faster there noticeable print quality difference particularly graphics which will handle large documents better pages more any personal experience either will appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either these machines highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input mail news posting readily acceptable but mail encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman stanford edu cpa stanford edu theory theory and practice are the same practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision the original revised revision revised sorry for the followup but couldn get email through your addresses too trying decide between these two printers and would like hear what users these printers have say about the questions above thank you randy randy msc cornell edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	moving icons article rahpbh viamar uucp rutgers viamar kmembry writes remember reading about program that made windows icons run away from the mouse moved near them does anyone know the name this program and the ftp location probably cica the file frite zip and you find the icons directory cica the one line description afflict your icons with cursorphobia paul blackman pwb science canberra edu water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu faculty applied science university canberra australia spend little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace manager for win article uml werple apana org jamie zikzak apana org jamie scuglia writes are there any workspace managers out there for windows try workshift karl thoreddson the latest version later but the following cica the desktop directory wrksft zip workshift graphical virtual desktop ver email karl and ask him put version karl email karlth rhi from the write file was beta tester for workshift and must say very good gain nothing from saying that even remember your workshifts workspaces you said between windows sessions thanks advance your welcome paul blackman pwb science canberra edu water research centre pwb aerg canberra edu faculty applied science university canberra australia spend little love and get high lenny kravitz
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet edited few newsgroup from that line don like crosspost that much can compare the two but recently got deskjet very pleased with the output remember that used imagens laser and postscript printers school looks very good you have careful let dry before touching will smudge the deskjet slow this comparison the other printers mentioned have idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer just dandy not had any problems with hope that helps some cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail box irvine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	out environment space running bat files from windows have bat file that run under windows icon have set pif file run the bat file exclusive mode and use the entire screen the first line the bat file sets environment variable problem that some our machines running dos and windows enhanced mode the set command the bat file fails with the out environment space error have raised the amount environment space bytes using the shell command config sys know that nowhere near running out just click the dos icon can create bunch environment varibles from the dos shell the problem that some machines setting the value environment variable bat file fails has anyone seen such behavior before see place the pif fail configure environment space lance gay internet gay venice sedd trw com trw systems engineering development div phone carson
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	many people one machine cda ucf bitnet cda ucf bitnet mark woodruff writes have several people sharing machine and would like set separate environments under windows for each them there some way setting things separate desktops directories for each them ideally like totally separate virtual machines willing settle for less and may end having batch files that copy ini files around depending who wants use the machine you could use dos this partly you can set different config sys and autoexec bat commands for each user and they just have select their menu option bootup then you can have the autoexec bat copy the win ini and system ini files and change directories for them when they exit windows can copy back generic ini files you want this the only way can think there may some programs somewhere that allow you this better though using dos allows each person have custom config sys and autoexec bat greg williams georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need help have problem that thought you guys gals might know about running with hdd also have windows but hardly any dos application will run out also when mem command says that have used out conventional memory zero from upper level memory and all ems memory and top off can load any device drivers into upper memory just need more memory also why would use ems memory instead upper memory please reply mail only wes tamvenus tamu edu bill scrivener not the first time that you texas university sleep with woman that matters college station texas but the first time email wes tamvenus tamu edu you wake with her
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident driver article qkua chn vinci uswc uswest com dfeldman lookout mtt uswc uswest com david feldman says please excuse faq but new trident based card claims have support drivers with card indicate several drivers diskette windows does not make all drivers diskette available configuration dialog box any suggestion thanx please mail dfeldman uswest com since are the subject have one more question have trident video card want know what the latest video driver for far all can find that old driver dated aug garbo uwasa anyone have any info please mail axh psuvm psu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm article downs helios nevada edu downs helios nevada edu lamont downs writes good that there isn any diff whether not atmanager turned not worth run atm all especially with these better printer technologies and there are some fonts that are only available fonts you have font that you want use use atm otherwise waste system resources you need use service bureau and they only set use type fonts from what heard pure hearsay the results outputting fonts type not good using high quality type fonts the first place unless you print file with the correct resolution set for the final output device image setter problem with fonts windows that they get converted format and the hinting even used while this done but the resulting fonts are not hinted the result that they will work fine device the resolution assumed the printer driver when the file generated but they will not look good when printed different resolution when you print attached printer with the driver set for this printer results may quite good but you take file made for that printer and run device different resolution such image setter then the results may not good
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvt net earlier article this newsgroup made reference winqvt net version realy where tried archie with luck probably just typo but sure would like get one real too have printer problem winqvt david fuess dir center for eecs phone fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	new windows drivers for cirrus graphic cards have uploaded the most recent windows drivers for the cirrus chip based display cards the uploads directory ftp cica indiana edu file zip they very recent downloaded them from the cirrus bbs last night you are unable get them there email and maybe can upload them some other sites well have local bus based card bitblaster from micron but think the drivers work with isa cards least includes drivers for them found the new drivers significant improvement over the version improving graphic winmarks about million although this could the result intentional benchmark cheating cirrus part but don think from steve gibson columnist for info world graphic card comparisons also found the cica ftp site under the name winadv zip extracted the following for the sake comparison wintach winbn word sprsht cad paint overall steve system vlb ati graphics ultra pro system vlb bitblaster its viper but think its hell deal about third the cost the ati card and when compared the other cards included gibson review micron system owner would interested hear your opinions the dtc local bus disk controller system came with maxtor drive and first was only giving disk winmarks about now this about good gets can get norton sysinfo disk reading because the contoller intercepts the calls least that was what the program said oliver weatherbee oliver earthview
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	adaptec scsi device driver for win 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet the deskjet slow this comparison the other printers mentioned have idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer just dandy not had any problems with just bought printer couple days ago compared the sample print deskjet and knew that the wasn for the pretty fast and really prints with good quality can compare with the laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending the kind paper don have problems with the ink not being dry seems dry very fast probably within second since canon giving rebate until the end may really good buy sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts and communications hfac brigham young university provo hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility for updating win ini and system ini article apr lut bailey lut adrian bailey writes windows there built called sysedit exe that just what you need windows don know there tony annese claebaur shell portal com claebaur cup portal com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	data corruption quit windows normally run special dos app got done with and tried start windows got the title screen windows background dos with error about loading progman exe hum yep progman exe still there must bad pull off progman exe from backup tape start windows get the windows title screen windows background dos with the same error hum fire the good norton disk doctor test lost clusters fix them and look through them doesn look important remove the windows directory and reinstall from disks fire windows title screen background program manager success have amy with meg ram meg svga running under dos special memory managers stuff just the basic windows meg permanent swap file using bit access mainly use windows run more that one dos app time downloading with qmodem with dos window open and possibly pov running the background noticed that since started using windows few months ago lost clusters have gotten more and more common although don like having data just disappear really haven been problem except for today has anyone else had any problems with lost clusters while running windows and what could fix the problem sleep better knowing amy wasn loosing her marbles steven steven marcotte sdoran matt ksu ksu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvt net article lorien ocf llnl gov dave angmar llnl gov dave fuess writes earlier article this newsgroup made reference winqvt net version realy where tried archie with luck probably just typo not typo was uploaded ftp cica indiana edu couple days back but sure would like get one real too have printer problem winqvt version uses standard windows printer drivers ashok ashok aiyar mail ashok biochemistry cwru edu department biochemistry tel cwru school medicine cleveland ohio fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files james dlss james cummings writes article apr gmuvax gmu edu rwang gmuvax gmu edu john wang writes everybody guess subject has said all getting boring looking those same old bmp files that came with windows wondering there any body has some beautiful bmp file can share maybe somebody can tell some ftp site for some bmp files like some scenery files some animals files etc used have some unfortunately delete them all anyway could give some help please response different kinda wallpaper here what use think the original gif whatever was called not real the artist name and logo the lower right corner you will need vga think and have this sized for color screens use this your windows directory and not tile hope you enjoy deleted lot stuff how you convert this bit map
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos quick crashes windows using dos quick dos window under windows and the other day while was running the compiler got general protection fault immediately followed serious disk error when rebooted found that about files had gotten cross linked which pretty serious corruption the hard drive file system concerned that quick dos window has somehow strayed outside its protected mode world and corrupted the smartdrv exe disk cache and that what caused the disk problem thought that dos programs run dos windows were pretty well contained windows that true then maybe the quick compiler has nothing with has anybody else had this type problem only recently upgraded from quick brad banko brad banko dept physics illinois banko uiuc edu see one one teach one cne lnq
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	turbo visual edition adn request was absolute newbie questions article wiggins apr buttercup odu edu wiggins buttercup odu edu samuel wiggins writes btw how would you rate the new borland turbo visual edition for windows anyone time for new discussion maybe asked these groups some time ago what about the and got answers decided try brother who lives the bought and sent and still trying get used before put good bad points list consider turbo pascal dos programmer and sometimes try make something unix with just some exercises from university used make some programs microsoft version because used some third party libraries that required that like borland seems much more easier use than microsoft specially the debugger tried learn codeview sometimes but never felt confortable with seems very nice create simple apps like the examples the objectwindows book far problems lets see next week when will try something more complex works nice even weak machine mhz ram but the manual for the resource workshop seems from different version from the workshop itself some the windows that appear the manual have more itens than the manual think will run into trouble since got this from brother present didnt wanted buy the japanese version because suspect that the manuals will japanese and believe will far more expensive here bought present and sent send the registration card the japanese branch borland but who knows like ask some questions for you all know that there are some microsoft guys around here this group there anybody from borland there any mail address that can contact the technical support not for stupid questions but ask for example why the manual seems different from the itself there anybody else using around here will the book petzold useful for intend use and protogen make the interfaces and then work the code itself answers mail comp windows programmer tools please thanks advance rafael
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows access for the blind article mtrottie emr emr mtrottie emr emr marc trottier writes article apr cci cci com jfb cci cci com john bruno writes from jfb cci cci com john bruno subject windows access for the blind date thu apr gmt are developing windows based product that uses full screen window display rows textual data there any product for microsoft windows that will enable blind individuals access the data efficiently quickly please email responses and will post summary this group thanks for any help john bruno apparently microsoft came out with new product braille suppose wytiwig offense marc trottier mtrottie emr emr the micro oft display fose there were few computers running windows and win apps for the blind think didn pay much attention but was there mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	possible hello possible know minimize program manager when starting application and restore when the application ended possible please tell how forever michael jordan tony gtonwu nthu edu cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help disappearing groups salutations don usually subscribe these newsgroups would really appreciate someone could possibly mail the answer problem have been using windows since buying last winter but have just now come across annoying bug now have about different groups program manager but seems that everytime install something new that makes new group promptly disappears after turn windows this happened when installed excel and winfax pro they both created their own groups but when turned off windows and reran them they were gone had manually pull them new items and put them previously existing group all new gropus disappear soon turn off windows set precision megs trident with meg windows running colour mode logitech mouseman thank you advance emile woo ewoo unixg ubc emile woo student representative senate sig unavailable holding internet ewoo unixg ubc referendum decide politic tel ally correct witticism
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bungee after dark module uploaded hey folks just moments ago uploaded the bungee jumper after dark module that was widely talked about here some time ago ftp cica indiana edu pub win uploads titled simply bungee zip sure set your ftp connection binary mode before downloading you have any other after dark shareware freeware modules please upload them too the more the merrier andrew andrew bennett ajbennett miavx acs muohio edu what planet are you from
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos vfintd and windows sys ini peter lei lei rtsg mot com wrote does anyone know what the vfintd device used for windows under the enh section device dos vfintd know norton desktop for windows includes this file and its help file mentioned something about floppy disk access jeroen gremmen email jeroeng blade stack urc tue gildelaan phone modem fax pleez hilvarenbeek
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how can use the mouse non windows article netcom com kasajian netcom com kenneth kasajian writes wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart oliver kretzschmar writes hey could somebody tell how possible work with the mouse non windows application which runs window use windows and have clipper applications exists there any routines something else please mail your informations thanks for your efforts oliver name kretzschmar inst ike university stuttgart phone pfaffenwaldring fax stuttgart email wnkretz ikesg energietechnik uni stuttgart very simple you have have the mouse com mouse sys loaded dos before you run windows note that you don need have these files loaded use the mouse windows and you need video driver which completely windows compatible and your mouse driver has completely compatible well not quite simple never could get logitech mouse work dos window with old paradise card now have diamond and the mouse drivers and everything works perfectly steven
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	grey scale while windows kevin marshall operational support motorola ecid swindon mail marshalk zeus phone international domestic
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace managers for win small review thanks all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows found shareware workspace managers from australia windows archive monu monash edu which mirrors some sites the the three found were workspaces wspace zip this was the smallest and simplest the workspace managers that found very easy use displays small window containing buttons plus extra button for configuration purposes one annoying feature was the title window that first presented when run you must press key not mouse button for the thing away also would have been nice there was always top setting for the little window containing the workspace buttons maybe some user specified strings the buttons instead the numbers one six might nice feature the simplicity and ease use this workspace manager makes attractive package workshift wrksft zip while this workspace manager offered few features that workspaces lacked was quite time consuming set things with workspaces all but the first workspace initially empty with workshift you need take snapshots how you want each your workspaces look like what applications they contain also the main window quite large but this does allow you have small view what each workspace with workspaces there was facility for viewing what was workspace without switching workshift provides this viewing functionality which quite useful bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip this interesting package which contains few other goodies well workspace manager other goodies include backmenu which provides pop root menu when you press certain mouse button just like windows the menu totally configurable offering unlimited depth cascading menus which provides quite handy access applications you could say menu based alternative the program manager also bundled backdesk zip program called wrun which allows you run windows applications from dos shell under windows instead using the file manager run applications the actual workspace manager called bigdesk bigdesk works quite differently the other two workspace managers that doesn provide certain number disjoint and separate workspaces fact basically enlarges your desktop configurable amount and you choose which region the desktop you want your screen focus this means you can have windows overlapping between different viewing regions unlike the first two workspace managers which each workspace was isolated from the other one the bigdesk control window allows move windows around your enlarged desktop basically the control window provides small scale view your viewing area while your actual computer screen provides large scale blow particular section try each them out for yourself was impressed with all them find out which one suits your needs the best
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc article kzp ecf toronto edu leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes article sunb ocs edu eugene mpce edu writes article csie nctu edu ghhwang csie nctu edu ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that authority risc but clearly remember reading that the instruction set risc cpus rather large the difference addressing modes risc instruction sets are not orthogonal cisc theoretically supposed reduced not any longer that why everyone arguing about risc cisc personally think cisc will win out just take look the pentium not that like intel architectures either but that another story bye you mean that the pentium better than risc that will outsell them all the first you have remember that intel cisc like the pentium are always generation away from the best riscs also riscs cpu are more costly because they are not sold the same quantities not even the same order but remember reading about years maybe about from hypercube that did mips was superscallar and reordered its instruction itself
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dmqs files for xga was catseye xga extra modes note the followups are set comp misc dmqs files describe monitors and valid modes used the xga under both windows and these files are unsupported ibm has nothing with these files this post personal this time and every time post see the signature due demand and requests here are some additional dmqs files collected for the xga these files function with the latest revision the drivers for the xga not all these files will work under windows with the drivers available the general public this time all files will function under the most recent beta and those tried have worked under not all files have been fully tested these files are unsupported they represent personal collection not anything resembling officially supported set standard disclaimer would like point out the following facts some these files may run your adapter out spec doing can stress the ics the card and may result incorrect operation shorter life how short depends how much out spec boom some these files may run your adapter region that out spec for your monitor resulting damage your monitor you should knowledgable about your monitor and adapter ability use the mode you select using these files represents hacking very true sense practice safe computing and don play around too much you don like the risks and aren knowledgable about what you doing you feel uncomfortable with all the warnings use the dmqs files you have wait until ibm releases official tested dmqs files although you should aware warning even with the ibm files these files are unsupported using them you may invalidate your warrenty not all have been fully tested don have that many monitors installation unpack your dmqspath environment variable usually xga dmqs then use the methods described your xga installation diskette change your adapter settings packing these files have been packed with the latest infozip utility you will need pkzip you don have the infozip utilities submitting feel free send uuencoded versions your favorite dmqs files for your favorite monitors always interested collecting more archive these files have been uploaded ftp nmsu edu pub uploads xga dmqs zip dick kaul opinions only not official ibm positions offers ibm visual subsystems data anything else were speak for ibm boca raton they make wear suit kaul vnet ibm com beware programmers carrying screwdrivers
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	utility expand dos file descriptions directory listing looking for windows utility that would give listing files directory but also display description the file this utility would allow enter and edit file descriptions hopefully any length maybe small window with scroll bar would then able browse directories and able see what file without having open execute any such beast out there not anyone want write one joe barrus barrus nosc mil
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	info books bios etc everybody interested the following topics bios programming and memory management and developing visual basic custom controls would like have your valuable opinion the books that are best the above topics please send mail rmehta paul rutgers edu will post summary the suggestions thanks advance rahul mehta
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	sigma designs video sound card does anyone out there use sigma designs video sound card the model called win storm they also have one model the legend any info these like performance and compatibility even problems encountered will appreciated thanks srini seetharam
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager two questions possible change the icons the program groups like give them some individuality can you set short cut key return the program manager know ctl esc esc will but rather set can avoid the task list and get back the with alt any and all help welcomed help stamp out stupid signature files gerry swetsky ebo vpnet public access unix and usenet home vpnet lisbon vpnet chi
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	questions just got based its good ratings but little under impressed first performance mill supposed comparable trident other unaccelerated vga came with only performance winspeed was between good and great second does anyone know where get that jpg viewer for the saw cica something does work better thanks for any help greg gregory king the quality life aeronautical engineering directly proportional cal poly slo how fast you drive
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes the deskjet slow this comparison the other printers mentioned have idea how the bubblejet compares the interface between win and the printer just dandy not had any problems with just bought printer couple days ago compared the sample print deskjet and knew that the wasn for the pretty fast and really prints with good quality can compare with the laserjet iiid postscript and they look almost identical depending the kind paper don have problems with the ink not being dry seems dry very fast probably within second since canon giving rebate until the end may really good buy how much the going for got mine for which was the end the deciding factor for cindy cindy tittle moore internet tittle ics uci edu bitnet cltittle uci bitnet uucp ucbvax ucivax tittle usnail box irvine
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager two questions article apr vpnet chi lisbon vpnet chi gerry swetsky writes possible change the icons the program groups like give them some individuality can you set short cut key return the program manager know ctl esc esc will but rather set can avoid the task list and get back the with alt use plugin enhancement program manager allows for sure don know anyway give try like lot and registered right away can found ftp cica indiana edu pub win util plugin zip bruce bruce steinke never know when you going bsteinke dsd com need good piece rope software technical support engineer sam gamgee evans sutherland computer corp mail opinions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident vga drivers have trident tvga video card and need the updated drivers for win where can get them from ftp site thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more diamond article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced faint shadow all resolutions using this card only windows have replaced card and waiting latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu and winfax setup had the exact same failure with the and word for windows quick call microsoft indicated was problem with the drivers you need call diamond and get the new drivers think version fixes the above problem there may later versions that unaware dale pischke dale odetics com uunet odetics dale senior software engineer odetics gyyr division
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tidying after removing ole server while ago installed spss for windows part evaluation once the evaluation was complete duly deleted the software from unfortunately there still ghost spss left when run something like write and embed object then spss chart appears the list objects offered looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing tried was looking for the string spss chart every file the windows directory turned file called req dat reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and didn feel inclined edit welcome solution for removing spss from the list ole servers chris wooff wooff liverpool
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	file manager problem whenever start file manager the status bar not displayed even though selected the options menu deselect then select again the bar appears anyone have any ideas why this happening thanks mike
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help disappearing groups article anlinn skeena ucs ubc ewoo unixg ubc emile woo writes program manager but seems that everytime install something new that makes new group promptly disappears after turn windows did you check that new grp file was actually created your windows directory are you turning off your computer when windows running rather than closing program manager ekkehard
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	list favorite windows goodies anyone maintaining list favorite shareware and public domain windows software have several such lists for msdos but they are really light windows stuff david arnstein international imaging systems arnstein iis sun com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hhy won dos apps run window can somebody help out there have just purchased win and just can get dos apps text mode apps run window their own tried mucking around with the pif settings etc but avail what doing wrong didn get this problem under thanks advance jason
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win what article qofw usenet ucs indiana edu ntaib silver ucs indiana edu iskandar taib writes article bcf deneva sdd trw com reimert etdesg trw com scott reimert writes somewhere this thread has been said that windows multi user well multi threading etc certainly haven seen this the case there are seperate accounts for each person and even seperate directories that desired don see implentation simultaneuos use though since running any gui over network going slow down fair amount expect windows will multiuser only the sense sharing filesystems someone will likely write telnetd for one could run character based apps but graphics based apps will have shared running the executables the local cpu this how things are shaping everywhere client server architectures are taking over from the old cpu terminal setups note that the next does this you can always telnet into next and run character based apps but you can run the gui yeah know about windows just haven been too impressed iskandar taib the only thing worse than peach ala internet ntaib silver ucs indiana edu frog frog ala peach bitnet ntaib iubacs read this electronic magazine about and for all the hoopla about one would think the thing would multi user but not supports only one user time can support multiple clients but only one actual user your mileage may vary this posting does not represent the opinions employers afraid have ask you leave the store mam ash aod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more diamond article apr odetics com dale odetics com dale pischke writes article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced faint shadow all resolutions using this card only windows have replaced card and waiting latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu and winfax setup had the exact same failure with the and word for windows quick call microsoft indicated was problem with the drivers you need call diamond and get the new drivers think version fixes the above problem there may later versions that unaware version drivers are current steve chesney slc catherine cim cdc com metaphase technology inc voice north lexington avenue fax arden hills
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mewin latex help posted this the apps group and didn get any response try here trying use the latex help feature available emacs for windows and read that you need separate latexhlp zip file along with vms hlp zip file convert this windows help has anyone found these files gotten this command help work thanks steve herrod
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should just venting steam had the same problem first thought was the video driver and made sure had the most current drivers because the problem was most evident svga resolution modes didn help and after bit experimentation determined that the problem existed standard vga resolution mode was just much less noticeable mouse was older serial version bought second hand worked just fine dos and dos based graphic applications the guess that the problem was with the resolution the mouse borrowed new mouse bus model and tried that solved the problem your mouse old you may want try replacing for newer one sean eckton computer support representative college fine arts and communications hfac brigham young university provo hfac csr byu edu ecktons ucs byu edu signoff russ lister rlister cti com well connected systen uunet cti rlister comprehensive technologies int inc arlington
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	twain drivers for logitech scanman was wondering anyone knew whether not logitech had windows twain drivers for the scanman are the drivers the net somewhere scanman the model one down from the scanman thanks advance ross barclay ross barclay rbarclay trentu peterborough ontario
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows sound system text speach all news group users does anyone know whether there some software which will let one text speach like the sound blaster does hal adam hadam bcsc gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	simple windows question here nice easy question for all you out there when running dos under windows lose the ability print screen have problem with this when running dos not under windows relavant using quarterdeck expanded memory manager for please mail any responses since don get read the news too often thanks advance eve albany edu albnyvms bitnet heavy home
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvtnet with ndis token ring article apr datamark thomas datamark writes article apr liris tew kuleuven wimvh liris tew kuleuven wim van holder writes possible use winqvt net machine that uses ndis connect token ring tried with older versions but got invalid packet class error something the like how are you attempting that are you using the dis pkt program this provides packet driver top the ndis driver tried but people told that even used dispkt the packets would still incompatible this true thomas beagle thomas datamark work technical writer thomas cavebbs welly gen home wellington hound for hire will work for dog biscuits wim van holder katholieke universiteit leuven tel departement fax dekenstraat leuven mail wimvh liris tew kuleuven belgium fdbaq kuleuven
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	eps display software does any one know any shareware freeware software which lets one display eps files with dos and windows your reply would much appreciated thanks hal adam hadam bcsc gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	out environment space running bat files from windows have bat file that run under windows icon have set pif file run the bat file exclusive mode and use the entire screen the first line the bat file sets environment variable problem that some our machines running dos and windows enhanced mode the set command the bat file fails with the out environment space error have raised the amount environment space bytes using the shell command config sys know that nowhere near running out from the windows resource toolkit for win workgroups add entry your system ini file under the nonwindowsapp section commandenvsize nnnn this sets the command com env size where nnnn must either between and value disables the setting this value too small too big rounded down the value less than the current size the actual environment this setting disabled were you specify the environment size pif file for command com the pif setting overrides this setting the default with msdos versions earlier than otherwise the default value the option the shell command config sys set this value you must edit your system ini and reboot have used this entry well relied the default from the config sys shell line and both give larger environments you don use one these then the environment passed windows each new dos box just little bit bigger than the environment variables present when windows was started matter how big the dos env was when windows starts truncates all unused space except for few bytes this should allow your batch file run but your mileage may vary jerome jerry schneider domain jls atg com aspen technology group uucp uunet csn atglab jls box collins voice
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows backgrounds help bored with the current windows backgrounds have here and looking for some nifty pictures use instead seen from previous posts that many sites exist that store pictures available through anonymous ftp except that can ftp remote sites from machine what can use ftpmail mail list commands server and receive mail files and data back does anyone know sites with windows compatible pictures that can accessed such way you would you please post them tia mark maybe this would make useful faq mark whalley gec mrc only silence the word phone exn only darkness light the views expressed here are mine only dying life all mine and nothing whatsoever bright the hawk flight the with gec mrc empty sky ursula guin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	pcf linux risc article jll nyongwa cam org angcl nyongwa cam org claude angers writes article kzp ecf toronto edu leebr ecf toronto edu lee brian writes article sunb ocs edu eugene mpce edu writes article csie nctu edu ghhwang csie nctu edu ghhwang writes dear friend the risc means reduced instruction set computer the risc usually has small instruction set reduce the circuit complex and can increase the clock rate have high performance you can read some books about computer architecture for more information about risc hmm not that authority risc but clearly remember reading that the instruction set risc cpus rather large the difference addressing modes risc instruction sets are not orthogonal cisc theoretically supposed reduced not any longer that why everyone arguing about risc cisc personally think cisc will win out just take look the pentium not that like intel architectures either but that another story bye you mean that the pentium better than risc that will outsell them all the first you have remember that intel cisc like the pentium are always generation away from the best riscs also riscs cpu are more costly because they are not sold the same quantities not even the same order but remember reading about years maybe about from hypercube that did mips was superscallar and reordered its instruction itself not sure but think the was mhz transputer tie gazillion them together get mips the newest the which kicks anyone butt haven seen them used much though anyway respond think the pentium cisc better than the more advanced risc like the alpha etc the mhz pentium has approximately the same performance the superduper mhz alpha here performance the weird specint that everyone refers this what heard the alpha still kicks the butt again this what heard and the computing world you sell lots chips like intel and make faster like intel you are the winner like intel even though you have sucky architecture from over years ago like intel you can make cisc chip superscalar superduperpipelined superfast with the ideas behind the risc ideology you got cisc chip and then admit can see the advantages risc over cisc the latest technology generation behind then sucks relatively speaking now may sound like like intel but have say that the some real kick butt pile and sio but hope that motorola really catches with the line gonna start crying brian brian hojo lee hey excuse miss could have gif you leebr ecf toronto edu leebr eecg toronto edu try linux the best and free clone
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files deleted lot stuff how you convert this bit map you supposed delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode but was not able unexpected end file encountered the last line could you please post tell what doing wrong thanks mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	beta testers required for winsock version windows trumpet contact for details peter psychnet psychol utas edu peter tattam international phone programmer psychology department australia phone university tasmania hobart tasmania australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet article apr csd newshost stanford edu kayman csd stanford edu robert kayman writes from kayman csd stanford edu robert kayman subject canon bubblejet and deskjet keywords printer date apr gmt hello fellow netters asking for your collected wisdom help decide which printer should purchase the canon bubblejet the deskjet thought rather than trust the salesperson would benefit more from relying those who use these printers daily and use them their fullest potential and figure all you will know their benefits and pitfalls better than any salesperson now would greatly appreciate any information you could render the dpi the canon bubblejet the hewlett packard deskjet dpi which faster there noticeable print quality difference particularly graphics which will handle large documents better pages more any personal experience either will appreciated here which works better under windows any driver problems etc cost memory font packages toner cartridges etc basically your personal experiences with either these machines highly desirable both good and bad advance kudos and thanks for all your input mail news posting readily acceptable but mail encouraged limits bandwidth sincerely robert kayman kayman stanford edu cpa stanford edu theory theory and practice are the same practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision the original revised revision revised all right not saying know any more than the average salesguy give your question shot the key issue that bought was ink drying speed you really have try awful hard get the ink smear the deskjets need seconds completely dry both cases however not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material your pages ink not toner but that should without saying has very little memory only meg ram the takes little while print but every application use takes while run once the computer solely printing purs like kitten and puts pages out every seconds depending how detailed your graphics are the can windows soft fonts assuming that the deskjet can wouldn sell many size another factor the much smaller but the built like tank bet the would get damaged first finally the print quality love the resolution looks like good laser quality print the used they look like ink not impressive chose the canon any other opinions
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	actix video card drivers for windows looking for the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card the driver currently using version and doesn support more than colors mode even you have memory the bbs support for actix unbelievable they are still using bps modem will take you hours download the drivers hurts when you are calling long distance there any ftp site that has collection video drivers for windows btw anyone using this card and how you like far thanks daniel wong uoft wongda picton eecg toronto edu electrical engineering
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	questions article news yale edu adriene nazaretian yale edu adriene nazaretian writes article mar samba oit unc edu tclark med unc edu thomas clark says the driver support seamless program support will soundblaster scanner rom tape backup continue work even there are specific drivers there hardware compatibility guide answer these questions there are many drivers for rom and there are midi and other sound drivers installed dont lot with sound digitizing this platform but recall seeing items for their configuration the control panel applet there built support for tape backup systems well problem wasn aware the fact that would need scsi rom for windows when ordering the beta sdk package question there any driver available that will allow use mitsumi non scsi rom for installation there one from which place ftp site can get many thanks advance stefan kuehnel stefan uhnel kuehnel rvs uni hannover kuehnel swl uni hannover neu die oben wiedergegebene meinung ist meine private und nicht die des rrzn des rvs der oder einer anderen institution
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident vga drivers article fgp mcgill bjcon mcgill brendan newman says have trident tvga video card and need the updated drivers for win where can get them from ftp site have the same card tvga when checked the latest driver for windows dated aug garbo uwasa win drivers video you find better version updated please let know thanks azmi axh psuvm psu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with windows drum machine hello trying get drum program work that downloaded from ftp cica indiana edu the pub win sounds directory called drum zip have ati stereo card with the latest windows drivers installed when try run the drum program reports that midi device not installed however the drivers utility the control panel reports that installed anyone have any idea how set the midi device that the drum program will work with setup what trying use computer metronome someone suggested that try one the drum machines that are circulating around out there any help would appreciated thanks terry terryh cae wisc edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how redirect print manager file hello who can tell where can find the shareware which can capture windows output printer mananger want capture the output laser jet iii though the postscript can setup print file but can try dos redirect program but they can work windows thankx for any help internet address nctu edu english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workgroup questions conven ram and licensing article abh eosvcr wimsey aew eosvcr wimsey writes would very appreciative someone would answer few questions about windows for workgroups currently have novell netware lite which does not work with windows very well and conventional memory hog ver considering moving all our machines how much conventional ram does use over and above the driver for the network card have just checked and you have three files that are loaded protman bytes driver bytes workgrp bytes have novell card are the lsl and ipx drivers still needed uses own drivers does license check over the network ensure each machine running its own licenced copy note not want break the license agreement and will buy copy for each our machines just that would like try out first see meets our needs returning one opened copy much easier than returning opened copies not that know bought two copies had some problems with one installed both from the same copie problems worry just had really old bios and that the only problem got you buy the upgrade windows for does replace all win you install does depend current win files will replace all older files think and prompt you for the others install windows server when comes out will have any troubles with the machines this not know when started this message was going ask only questions but got carried away stop now look forward your replies hope this helps gel
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	simple windows question article apr sarah albany edu eve albany edu diamond writes when running dos under windows lose the ability print screen have problem with this when running dos not under windows open the pif file with the pif editor click the advanced button and then reserve the prtsc key for the application any keys that you select this section will passed along the application rather than being processed windows bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	overlapped window without title bar have simple question possible create overlapped thickframe window without title bar overlapped thickframe caption don seem able get rid off the title bar have another question have overlapped window say which has few child windows etc the window shows with all children fine now create another child with thickframe style and placed top one more siblings style thickframe used that can resize how make sure that the child will always the top siblings used setwindowpos and bringwindowtotop without success what happening that while resizing shows but soon let goes behild siblings any help would greatly appreciated manu please mail manu oas olivetti com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win comm drivers replacements question has anyone had any experience with replacement comm driver for windows called turbocomm read about pcmag apr and interested but not willing shell out the bucks the company wants just try out supposedly eleminates the problems that occur during high speed file transfer and disk access made another program running the same time anyone has any pro cons about this product would very inter ested hear them please email the address give below thanks matthew gibson gibsonm arizona edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	file manager problem previous article mrw eng nxt cso uiuc edu michael whitchurch says whenever start file manager the status bar not displayed even though selected the options menu deselect then select again the bar appears anyone have any ideas why this happening not really may that your winfile ini has gotten corrupted for some unknown reason have you tried creating either exiting filemanager with the save setting option when the status bar visible double clicking the control menu the one with minimize and maximize when everything looks proper you have and still doesn work you may want delete your winfile ini and try one these two saving procedures again totally recreate the file from scratch good luck mark waschkowski
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet thomas fellrath edu edu wrote the key issue that bought was ink drying speed you really have try awful hard get the ink smear the deskjets need seconds completely dry both cases however not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material your pages ink not toner but that should without saying think the ink now used the deskjet family water fast
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trumpet for windows other news readers article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes article apr liris tew kuleuven wimvh liris tew kuleuven wim van holder writes what the status trumpet for windows will use the windows sockets liked dos but had abandon since started using ndis access our token ring results invalid class error while not speak for peter tattam fairly sure planning winsock compliant version while this will definitely not make the initial public release wintrumpet will follow shortly thereafter currently wintrumpet very late beta looks like excellent product with several features beyond the dos version wintrumpet supports the trumpet tcp novell lwp and there also direct packet driver version that some people are using with the dis pkt shim ashok ashok wintrumpet available anywhere via anonymous ftp james garven dept finance cba voice graduate school business fax university texas internet jgarven mcl utexas edu austin bitnet garven utxvm bitnet education hanging until you caught robert frost
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	changing system fonts would like change all the system fonts windows have program that will generate system fonts from truetype but was wondering there problem help you set all your system fonts also how change the icon text color all icon text black and want change couldn find any options control panel win ini brad cain brad bach udel edu brad bach udel edu brad cain naf cain snow white udel edu university delaware electrical engineering cain freezer cns udel edu blah blah blah alt blah
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tidying after removing ole server article liverpool liverpool chris wooff writes while ago installed spss for windows part evaluation once the evaluation was complete duly deleted the software from unfortunately there still ghost spss left when run something like write and embed object then spss chart appears the list objects offered looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing tried was looking for the string spss chart every file the windows directory turned file called req dat reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and didn feel inclined edit welcome solution for removing spss from the list ole servers think you can this with regedit which can make changes the ole registration database from program manager file manager choose run and type regedit you have its included with windows but not well documented tom paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hhy won dos apps run window article snz sigma demon jason sigma demon writes can somebody help out there have just purchased win and just can get dos apps text mode apps run window their own tried mucking around with the pif settings etc but avail what doing wrong didn get this problem under are you sure you running enhanced mode windows takes more memory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	approach for windows article crossposted from comp windows apps author was richard timmer posted apr gmt hello winnetters have seen great deal discussion herein the relative merits access and borland paradox win however are there any users out there with experience with the database package called approach has gotten number very good reviews from the various mags and seems like would require less hardware overhead than paradox have ruled out access because some aspects are extremely non intuitive requiring field always have value like what seen paradox but seems like the resource requirements are greater than what have mhz ram please provide with your thoughts are approach good and bad thanks richard timmer
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse com under windows previous article jpaparel ulowell edu joseph paparella says pursued and researched this question over the last month because have the same requirements you and the long and short that the windows mouse drivers don accept mice any but com and com using irq irq unless you buy special drivers from someone who has them talked mouse systems who say their driver doesn support other than com and com above but who claim releasing one that will soon the other alternative seems possible but one case prohibitively expensive port card for and the other the author powerbbs for windows claim have port serial card with buffered uarts and drivers for windows match com irq for the second paragraph hearsay because haven checked out yet but intend soon can free hope this will save you some steps had this problem when first loaded windows card for parrelel serial for mouse and for external modem and game port problem enters the darn serial ports have selection for com settings they are stuck and good card for and but lousy for serial called microsoft and other places the long and short windows wants com and only for mouse selection went out and bought small card just for parrelel and serial now have all active com ports and lpt and lpt this half card was less than mouse com external modem com disabled the lpt could use the interupt for scanner card irq artin this communication sent artin university arizona tucson cleveland freenet edu mlinsenb ccit arizona edu mlinsenb arizvms death has been dead for about years follow the king kings
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	word byte just moved from borland visual today when tried compile program complained function prototype problem turned out that the typedef word byte not unsigned int could anyone shine some light this subject why word byte ming lin mlin ichips intel com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winnls dll tried install foreign language windows application that required file named winnls dll checked all windows installation disks for this file but could not find does anybody have any idea what this file for and where one could get from
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon buble jet printer can somebody tell how much canon and from where can buy for the cheapest price thanks advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	for sale harvard graphics for windows for sale brand new shrinkwrapped harvard graphics for windows list price cheapest pince computer shopper mail order price this really slick package but won bike race can return for credit dilemma your fire sale peter tapscott xerox palo alto research center internet tapscott adoc xerox com xns net tapscott parc xerox
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	trident driver wanted there trident driver for windows anywere this mode supported the drivers but have not been able find for windows means wide and high opposed any help appreciated peter vestman dep computing science university umea sweden
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvt net article ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok biochemistry cwru edu ashok aiyar writes article lorien ocf llnl gov dave angmar llnl gov dave fuess writes earlier article this newsgroup made reference winqvt net version realy where tried archie with luck probably just typo not typo was uploaded ftp cica indiana edu couple days back but sure would like get one real too have printer problem winqvt version uses standard windows printer drivers ashok still the pub win uploads directory qvtnet zip note new email address tom carter carter photon cem msu edu michigan state university carter msucem bitnet chemistry department
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	exit codes dos sorry for wrong group article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes hey now first all sorry post this dos question windows group but kinda hurry can scramble find the dos groups names anyway anyone know where ccan find the exit codes dos commands there are alternatives you can try write small program something like int int var int var system command and display int var value which the exit code the command use dos com instead command com has built move command you can also get any program exist code using the exec function dos echo exec command will display the exit code the command get dos not worth buying you already have qemm pctools norton and you only need the move utility the manual doesn seem have all them particularly looking for copy order make move batch file such that the file wasn coppied properly won deleted please mail louray seas gwu edu thanks mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong agus budy wuysang digitech student monash university clayton melbourne australia
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes deleted lot stuff how you convert this bit map you supposed delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode but was not able unexpected end file encountered the last line could you please post tell what doing wrong sounds like the original poster the bitmap uuencoded the file dos machine and you tried uudecode machine and your uudecode program balked the carraige returns
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager kills group files any clue some times when enter win progman says that need rebuild group quite annoying
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how hold the control window object using objectwindows version and trying get some data processed window object however when the calling program invokes the window object gives the control the window object and keeps executing the next statement would like the calling program after invoking the window object wait until the window object closed can that program may look like class mywindow public twindow void mycallingprog could the calling program function mywindow mywinobj mywinobj new mywindow getapplication makewindow mywinobj mywinobj show shownormal next statement want the program wait here until mywinobj closed that can get some data back from mywinobj specified the window style popupwindow didn help there any other way execute the window object that the calling program won give the control any help would appreciated thanks jun talk the lord with through windows
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	overlapped window without title bar from article ern olivea atc olivetti com manu oas olivetti com manu das have overlapped window say which has few child windows etc the window shows with all children fine now create another child with thickframe style and placed top one more siblings style thickframe used that can resize how make sure that the child will always the top siblings used setwindowpos and bringwindowtotop without success what happening that while resizing shows but soon let goes behild siblings the window probobly top but the lower windows are drawing over try using clipsibling keep the lower siblings from drawing the top sibling space ekalenda netcom com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	need longer filenames article infoserv com hfeldman infoserv com howard mitchell feldman writes apr guinness idbsu edu lhighley gozer idbsu edu larry paul highley wrote there utility out there that will let use filenames longer than the standard format yep called
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	atm rnichols cbnewsg att com robert nichols writes truetype font files are least larger than their type equivalents you are using disk compressor though aware that truetype fonts will compress whereas type fonts will not they are encrypted this isn entirely true true that truetype fonts are larger than their atm counterparts but atm fonts get minimal compression running stacker report generator get file type compression ratio ttf truetype pfb atm pfm atm metric although the metric files are small they compress quite largely and you can see even the regular pfb files have some compression doing the math one such comparitive font file ttf times bytes bytes compressed pfb times bytes bytes compressed you still win out even the atm times font isn compressed your mileage may vary depending compression program when heroes down they down fast john grohol don expect any time center for psychological studies equivocate the past nova univ lauderdale suzanne vega grohol novavax nova edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	beta testers required for winsock version windows trumpet previous article peter psychnet psychol utas edu peter tattam says contact for details peter psychnet psychol utas edu peter this posted behalf peter tattam there north american mirror with the beta test version wintrumpet for winsock please contact peter for details ashok ashok aiyar department biochemistry cwru axa cwru edu for internet access telnet ftp cleveland contact info wariat org telnet wariat wariat org and login bbs dial bis bps
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please refresh internet access compuserve sometime ago there are some discussions gaining compuserve access thru the internet but seem misplace those articles can someone please refresh where which site can telnet gain access hopefully can download files well thanks arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hate make decision well really hate make decision but recently have choose whether stacker dos with double space for poor using windwos and hope what choose will live with windows any help will appreciated forever michael jordan tony gtonwu nthu edu cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fast dos vga and windows video card info needed have isa diamond stealth vram was really satisfied its performance windows but now more and more games needs higher frame rates dos vga especially this new strike commander this stealth vram can only give fps use dbench winmark was million think right now considering replace new card which hopefully can perform approx same current vram windows and also can perform dos vga preferably fps also saw the dbench benchmark list from someone who compiled csipg and looked that speedstar and orchid prodesigner ware the fastest for non local bus motherboard both can give fps dos vga does anyone have winmarks for both those cards above with the processor type which one the worthiest not necessarily fastest any other card recommendation welcomed too also possible where can get this card for the cheapest thanks advance folks martin
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	cica mirror try wuarchive wustl edu the mirrors win directory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	hate make decision article apr gtonwu nthu edu gtonwu nthu edu tony writes well really hate make decision but recently have choose whether stacker dos with double space for poor using windwos and hope what choose will live with windows any help will appreciated forever michael jordan tony gtonwu nthu edu cae rheology lab nthu tony che nthu edu stacker achieves better compression ratio than dos yet the latter comes with virus detection memory manager and multiple booting each them are not good the nav qemm ndos opinion but with package only nice haven yet installed all those stuffs both certainly work with win rensheng horng
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bernoulli drives disks nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don laugh serious you have any tapes lying around that you would like get rid please mail nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you mean disks don you not tapes you forgot say whether you were looking for the old the newer sorry just use them work and don think they would appreciate nathan moore the johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory ncmoore aplcomm jhuapl edu cis please note above address for email replies
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more cool bmp files article yhr world std com paladin world std com thomas schlatter says article apr seas gwu edu louray seas gwu edu michael panayiotakis writes deleted lot stuff how you convert this bit map you supposed delete everything above the cut here mark and below the lower cut here mark and uudecode but was not able unexpected end file encountered the last line could you please post tell what doing wrong sounds like the original poster the bitmap uuencoded the file dos machine and you tried uudecode machine and your uudecode program balked the carraige returns well newsreader shows the uue file having lots spaces which means broken before even try download did anyone get uudecode successfully aengus rbyaml rohmhaas com aengus lawlor rbyaml rohvm bitnet who used alawlor dit how about some that famous dublin wit barman certainly sir would that dry sparkling
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bigger window headings does anyone know bigger raster fonts using mag monitor with diamond mode and would prefer have larger characters for the windows heading practically for everything already using the character sets mark any idea the difference between the and the
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	soundblaster drivers for win all could someone please tell there are drivers for windows for the new soundblaster will the drivers sufficient would appreciate any info thanks greg ennis gke williams edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	question about localtalk appleshare dos system anyone out there running dos system with localtalk board appletalk network hooked with daystar digital localtalk interface board running model using the appleshare software for file server and network access works fine under dos the window dos box but when try load before windows that every application run could get access the machine crashes hard soon start application and course things look pretty hopeless for but who knows does anyone have experience with this bizarre and obsolete setup duncan duncans phoenix princeton edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	msaccess dde communications couple weeks ago posted question concerning communicating between and msaccess using dde the answers received that time allowed get prototype project working however during this process have come with new problems there seems limit characters for dde topic string this inherent all dde systems just peculiar msaccess easy query access database from using the dde sql command provided the above limitation overcome using short field and table names but how one meant update database dde sql update command does not seem work initiating access macro using dde execute command from cannot used because when the macro requests information from using second dde channel the programs dead lock until time outs occur the access channel has close before the access channel initiated guess access does not allow dde poke the information the way eventually managed update database was sending key strokes from access using the sendkeys command this technique has the problem that access cannot minimised and must always state ready respond the sequence key strokes sends are all the above statements correct have made incorrect assumptions are there any better work arounds the above are there any signs odbc driver for access bob ran doc
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	video cards with bnc connectors hello just recently bought nec order get the highest possible quality and refresh rates like know there are any accelerator cards with bnc connectors opposed the usual sub connector thanks for any information mike mills mail sam uky edu rutgers uunet ukma sam math sciences dept mike ukpr uky edu work home
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help object appears thrice hey all got equation editor and since didn automagically appear object dialog box insert object equation decided manually place there went into win ini there another way this the embedding section and added equation equation equation path filename picture didn work quit windows back aha mistake correct looks fine start windows doesn work play with for while one point having two entries see one works and other don and finally get work the only thing can see that different now that now the first item the list and used the last but now end with three equation entried and all them working and only one entry win ini does any netian know what wrong rather how correct this make equation appear but once also all the entries the embedding appear above obvious that path filename the executable whatever and picture has something withthe way appears picture description but what are the others soundrec sound sound whate the difference between the sound and the and what soundrec don think the name the executable other entries msworkschart aren thanks mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	realizing colours win ini setting changes automatically mornin all was wonderin got screenpeace the screensaver which think very good and got problem with there option there realize colour table and switched some wallpapers colours will get ucked with some screensavers the flashlight one turn off however works well and faster have off all nice and well however turn off then will again next time start windows all the setting are set the win ini file and have save settings exit selected also tried manually changing the setting the win ini file for realize colour table and started windows will fine for that session but the next session will again turn the option tried adding read only attribute win ini file and worked but bitmap wallpaper saver didn work then actually the same application anywya didn work since must change the setting the win ini file anyone out there got any answers suggesions comments for thanks mickey aka michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray how make windows grp file reflect directory well ain always right but never been wrong
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager two questions article apr vpnet chi lisbon vpnet chi gerry swetsky writes possible change the icons the program groups like give them some individuality you mean the icons the program groups the icons the individual programs the program groups assume you mean the latter and the answer sure you can just click once not double the application icon then alt file properties click the change icon box and tell the icon filename use the browse sub selection can you set short cut key return the program manager know ctl esc esc will but rather set can avoid the task list and get back the with alt use alt tab hold the alt key and repeatedly press tab until you see program mangler then release the alt key stan brown oak road systems brown ncoast org english native language and love but don try tell that easy learn that makes sense were baseline would rhyme with vaseline
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword spelling dictionaries for non english word for windows lets designate text being language other than english alt format language recall mark for english but still accepts rumor and squawks rumour far can see microsoft didn include the english dictionary disks don mean imply that was singled out assume that nobody the got them dialed the microsoft bbs but nothing the word for windows section looked helpful can anyone tell where how obtain the spelling dictionary for winword the file name would spell lex something similar email please post summary stan brown oak road systems brown ncoast org english native language and love but don try tell that easy learn that makes sense were baseline would rhyme with vaseline
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should just venting steam think have the same problem think caused the rubber ball the mouse which doesn roll smooth the detectors the mouse notice this and whoops hit mine using minesweeper think the solution will buying new mouse and using mouse pad wouter
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more diamond from article apr samba oit unc edu dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina has anyone experienced faint shadow all resolutions using this card only windows have replaced card and waiting latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu and winfax setup had ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control let products the market with many bugs what hassle running gateway thx dave you using drivers version earlier the latest available from their bbs snailmail least fixes the wfw problem the reason wanted reply public instead private mail because following talked their tech support few days ago and was told that can expect new version near the end the month which should about now however have problem when switching back from dos session standard mode apparently they don know this problem and seem surprised why anybody would want use standard mode all great card for the price least when bought now there may better alternatives peng
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winword grammer checker saved liff fire microsoft word for windows version type the following paragraph you want rite really very dead good you just cant live without one the wonderfully write aids what you can get what helps impress boss under tools options grammar select use grammar and style rules strictly all rules and click run the grammar checker this also does spelling check complaints readability passive sentences flesch reading ease flesch grade level flesch kincaid gunning fog index someone buy malcolm bacchus some beer please
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	visual correct that not considered upgrade for basically dos product windows product windows not upgrade for dos separate operating system product line its utilities cannot upgrades for dos utilities however have also been told that not upgrade for qcwin which should article therose pdx com don hancock fidonet org don hancock writes understanding that visual msc not what mean intended logical upgrade msc which own very interested but can find anything about tell more how the editor true windows app msc which love not how are compile times exe sizes how smart the linker how well does dos apps would like one the few programmers still pumping out stuff for the dos users out there even though run win like the multitasking and couldn afford desqview will link party libs easily use lots party libs dos programs too lazy own interfaces how the debugger make lots mistakes thanx wasn for would using basi pasal and obol blue wave qwk david fuess dir center for eecs phone fax lawrence livermore national laboratory
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo know this probably faq but installed the for ati graphics card and bashed windows logo files when start windows now has the logo instead the logo thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored these files but didn change the logo anyone know what the correct files are thanks farley access digex com charles farley average calgary board employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	protection fault was wondering anyone out there could help have error message that goes what does mean running windows thanks advance
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse article apr cti com rlister cti com russell lister writes ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should just venting steam had the same problem first thought was the video driver and made sure had the most current drivers because the problem was most evident svga resolution modes didn help and after bit experimentation determined that the problem existed standard vga resolution mode was just much less noticeable mouse was older serial version bought second hand worked just fine dos and dos based graphic applications the guess that the problem was with the resolution the mouse borrowed new mouse bus model and tried that solved the problem your mouse old you may want try replacing for newer one another alternative clean the mouse you got sometimes the rollers inside the mouse pick ball lint other debris open the bottom the mouse take out the ball and use some alcohol tip clean out inspect the inside for any hairs fuzz have had mouse get real jumpy and cleared the problem with this procedure
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	modem and download with winqvt hello all like know how modem upload initiated winqvt script file check how works before registering unfortunatly nothing about that feature mentioned the manual can anybody help ciao chris
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	exit codes dos sorry for wrong group internal dos commands certainly and before not set the exit code this royal pain you want anything which checks for successful deletions etc the best suggestion use dos which does return you exit codes also has move command simon simon rowe srowe fulcrum fulcrum communications ltd birmingham condition brain overload raised england
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	novell installed windows for workgroups network and having problems mapping drives the file manager situation put lastdrive config sys netx will run but can access drive log novell don put lastdrive config sys can access other drives from the file manager seems that there should way make netx work with the lastdrive statement config sys would appreciate any help probably easy problem that all you windows guru solved many many moons ago thanks tom bilan department death engineering surgeon general warning michigan state university graduate school may cause brain bilan cps msu edu damage and sporadic loss hair
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	drivers for stealth recently purchased diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file cica does not work with this video card please respond doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows locks with green lines down the screen using dtk mhz meg memory run variety programs and have had problems off and with lock but now trying run application that wants lot memory over period time playmation bit rendered and locking everytime have ati ultra meg which have tried each the video modes have excluded the region video memory from segments from the use emm have tried adjusting the swap partion from large nonexistant prevent swapping and have rem all tsr and utilities config syus and autoexec and even tried using the default program manager disabling dashboard even with minimal system swap smartdrv tsr windows utilities and exclusion video regions still locks completely mouse control response anything except finger salute and even that does not stop the standard windows screen but simply does full reset immediately just about out ideas anyone out there have any thanks tom branham branham binah brandeis edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please refresh internet access compuserve cheong solomon technet scstech admin writes sometime ago there are some discussions gaining compuserve access thru the internet but seem misplace those articles can someone please refresh where which site can telnet gain access hopefully can download files well this should the faq only get asked about twenty times month there that right telnet access compuserve ftp access gopher access internet services except mail you can telnet hermes merit edu but that routes you through sprintnet which horrendously expensive tom gillman systems programmer aaaaagggghhhh wells computer center state univ any classic star trek security syshtg gsusgi gsu edu officer sometime during the show gsu doesn care what say the internet why should you
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo article farley access digex com charles farley writes installed the for ati graphics card and bashed windows logo files when start windows now has the logo instead the logo thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored these files but didn change the logo anyone know what the correct files are for vga card these are the correct files but you can just copy them back and expect work you have create new win com file try the command you will have worry about what directories each file since don know your setup copy win cnf vgalogo lgo vgalogo rle win com grabbed this from supercharging windows judd robbins great book this also how you can put your own logo into the windows startup screen rle file just specially compressed bmp file hope this helps brad smalling tech atlanta prism gatech edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	how redirect print manager file nctu edu swh writes who can tell which program shareware can redirect windows output printer manager file want capture laser jet iii print output though postscript can setup print file but can use dos redirect program but they can work windows thankx for any help internet address nctu edu english name erik wang chinese name wang jyh shyang national chiao tung university taiwan try setting another hpiii printer but when choosing what port connect choose file instead like lpt this will prompt you for file name everytime you print with that hpiii file printer good luck brian servis servis author ecn purdue edu happened this way actual quotes from insurance claims what say may not what think what say may not the pedestrian had idea which what purdue thinks way ran him over
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	protection fault thia mira sce carleton thia sce carleton yong thia writes was wondering anyone out there could help have error message that goes what does mean running windows ummm think you left the message out get these protection faults all the time machine work mhz with ram windows with dos home mhz ram windows and dos never get these any idea what could wrong someone already suggested check for tmp files the windows temp directory there are none there the message get this application has violated system integrity due invalid general protection fault and will terminated only have this problem with applications running dos boxes with without pif files setup for them any hints help greatly appreciated please post since least one other person also having gpf problems thanks gordon gordon edwards vph nothing unreal exists ncr engineering manufacturing gedwards ncratl atlantaga ncr com kiri kin tha first law metaphysics
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	help with changing startup logo article rgtba gtn access digex net farley access digex com charles farley writes know this probably faq but installed the for ati graphics card and bashed windows logo files when start windows now has the logo instead the logo thought the files that controlled this were windows system vgalogo rle windows system vgalogo lgo restored these files but didn change the logo anyone know what the correct files are thanks somewhere ftp cica indiana edu simtel mirror there program called winlogo zip that does the trick works great believe the reason why you can change the files you mentioned that the logo actually imbeded into the windows executable somebody please correct expand this eric farley access digex com charles farley average calgary board employee
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ctrl alt del locks the computer fafter windows whenever exit windows can use control alt del reboot computer because the system hangs when this can still reboot using the reset key but would like know why this happens eric ebosco oracle com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows und windows not sure whether here the right area but does anybody here know whether windows does will include windows server that can run window applications remotely this because are considering our university use for word processing and program development whereas the bigger jobs are run either sun workstations fujitsu super computers thank you very much advance hein eurom free multiline unix bbs home the fsag frankfurt main germany data
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows help please help windows need some information the new windows anything you have would appreciated know nothing about well except that exists some questions memory requirements hard drive space release date out how ibm reacting intel can replace other lan anything else like specs speed etc thanks advance luke email internet address domet ucbeh san edu bitnet address domet ucbeh
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	embedded truetype fonts heard rumors about this might have even seen few places and like some info possible embed fonts document like write word ami pro the file can printed another machine that doesn have the font possible how done sorry this faq couldn find faq list would also apreciate knowing where that windows faq exsists thanks advance harry pierson come and with live twisted dream the audio mercenary pro devoted pledge time for primal concrete sledge pierson usc edu pantera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workaround for citizen drivers have been experiencing several end user problems with various commercial software packages wordperfect win publish win and printing landscape mode citizen the little guy the citizen gsx nutshell the problem that lose the first inches information from left margin white space truetype font output and margins are not preserved subsequent pages past the first wordperfect had workaround consisting using the default location for the printers instead tractor manual they have also filed this bug and are continuing investigate write course has problem with these printer drivers proving that microsoft knows something the rest don are you surprised not publish win still investigating this problem and while was consider options rejecting the one about buying dtp package for surely they wouldn have this problem right stumbled onto global workaround workaround into the windows control panel select printers select your citizen printer driver select setup and select custom size like magic all your problems will away ask questions and tell you lies mike disclaimer opinions not necessarily reflect those employer mike rovak drd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	windows dos smartdrv hello thought this problem might have something with windows smartdrv and vesa video card any ideas recently purchased machine and having problems where the machine will suddenly freeze reboot this may happen windows dos sometimes after printing document sometimes after using the mouse and sometimes just when sitting there twice when happened the machine rebooted and sounded seven beeps looked the documentation and the seven beep code meant problem with interrupts the machine has the following configuration and files ami bios and floppies meg ide hard drive cache microsoft compatible mouse com citizen gsx lpt supervga monitor with vesa windows accelerator card meg two vesa slots windows dos config sys device windows himem sys dos high devicehigh dos setver exe files buffers stacks autoexec bat echo off windows smartdrv exe prompt path dos windows mouse mouse mouse set temp dos dos doskey when the machine freezes can use the mouse keyboard use ctrl alt del reboot any one can give any help would greatly appreciate anyone can help configure this machine for the best efficiency memory wise would appreciate that also douglas dodson internet dbd icf hrb com hrb systems inc state college usa disclaimer any ideas opinions expressed here not necessarily reflect the ideas opinions hrb
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	please refresh internet access compuserve cheong solomon technet scstech admin writes sometime ago there are some discussions gaining compuserve access thru the internet but seem misplace those articles can someone please refresh where which site can telnet gain access try telnet login cserve this will get you into the compuserve network enter hostname cis and you get the userid prompt hopefully can download files well haven you can figure out let know also let know your backspace key works thanks arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com craig lewis saic craig monster apd saic com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workaround for citizen drivers article apr drd com mike drd com mike rovak writes have been experiencing several end user problems with various commercial software packages wordperfect win publish win and printing landscape mode citizen the little guy the citizen gsx nutshell the problem that lose the first inches information from left margin white space truetype font output and margins are not preserved subsequent pages past the first wordperfect had workaround consisting using the default location for the printers instead tractor manual they have also filed this bug and are continuing investigate write course has problem with these printer drivers proving that microsoft knows something the rest don are you surprised not publish win still investigating this problem and while was consider options rejecting the one about buying dtp package for surely they wouldn have this problem right stumbled onto global workaround workaround into the windows control panel select printers select your citizen printer driver select setup and select custom size like magic all your problems will away ask questions and tell you lies mike excuse that mike disclaimer opinions not necessarily reflect those employer mike rovak drd com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workaround for citizen drivers for windows have had the best luck using the epson drivers with citizen gxs sure download the updated version from microsoft that allows margin settings gene toye senior software engineer gtoye pssparc com openconnect systems lbj freeway dallas disclaimer employer had idea was going say that
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for the latest actix drivers for windows anyone have the latest drivers for the actix graphics accelerator card plus the one have version seem have lot problems believe the latest version and would someone please upload some ftp site that can download thanks daniel wong uoft wongda picton eecg toronto edu electrical engineering
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace managers for win small review jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org wrote thanks all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows found shareware workspace managers from australia windows archive monu monash edu which mirrors some sites the the three found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted really appreciate this information however given that don have direct internet access which means don have archie access must resort using ftpmail this means that need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located can you anyone else post email the needed information thanks very much chris chris huey tactix reengineering inc cah tactix rain com voice codecrafters custom crafted software about hour
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	visual article rgr lll winken llnl gov david fuess writes correct that not considered upgrade for basically dos product windows product windows not upgrade for dos separate operating system product line its utilities cannot upgrades for dos utilities however have also been told that not upgrade for qcwin which should you can upgrade msc and qcwin the visual products follows standard edition list price upgrade from qcwin competitive upgrade professional edition list price upgrade from msc competitive upgrade includes upgrades from other language products like qcwin michael goo hewlett packard never try cover ass information networks division but certainly support your right homestead road cupertino goo hpinddh cup com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse article wlieftin liefting writes ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions does microsoft think they are what everyone should just venting steam think have the same problem think caused the rubber ball the mouse which doesn roll smooth the detectors the mouse notice this and whoops hit mine using minesweeper think the solution will buying new mouse and using mouse pad wouter and taking the rubber ball out the mouse should directions the manual the bottom the mouse and cleaning with alcohol isopropyl believe the same alcohol used for cleaning your cassette deck this good every often even you have mouse pad dust still gets caught the mouse and the rubber ball well lint and other garbage may find way onto the rubber ball and get into the mouse damaging the horizontal and vertical sensors hope this helps good luck sincerely robert kayman kayman stanford edu cpa stanford edu theory theory and practice are the same practice they are not you mean you want the revised revision the original revised revision revised
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bernoulli drives disks article onk netnews jhuapl edu ncmoore netnews jhuapl edu nathan moore writes nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don laugh serious you have any tapes lying around that you would like get rid please mail nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you mean disks don you not tapes you forgot say whether you were looking for the old the newer well need the old disks you are right disks better word but they are big and calling them disks kind funny but the appropriate word disks nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	looking for tom haapanen trying find tom haapanen formerly tom wes who was the keeper the faq for this newsgroup was working watrerloo engineering software but netfind can even find that but may have been uucp connection anyone knows how contact tom please let know thanks tom schlatter paladin world std com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	novell article msuinfo msu edu bilan cps msu edu thomas bilan writes put lastdrive config sys netx will run but can access drive log novell don put lastdrive config sys can access other drives from the file manager seems that there should way make netx work with the lastdrive statement config sys first off haven used but think that about change the problem the lastdrive command and the way netware general and this case netx particular adds drives the device chain setting lastdrive means there are unassigned opposed unused drive letters for netware use tacks its drive mappings onto the end the existing list drives obviously attaches its network drives existing unused drive letters guess the next thing try something like lastdrive which most machines will leave fair swathe drives for and still allow netware drive mappings well nick fitzgerald applications consultant csc uni canterbury fitzgerald csc canterbury tel fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	fast dos vga and windows video card info needed article apr doug cae wisc edu leo cae wisc edu leo lim writes have isa diamond stealth vram was really satisfied its performance windows but now more and more games needs higher frame rates dos vga especially this new strike commander this stealth vram can only give fps use dbench winmark was million think right now considering replace new card which hopefully can perform approx same current vram windows and also can perform dos vga preferably fps ordering the actix graphicsengine ultra plus the same price the stealth card plus also based chip the newest and fastest chip from everyone you are looking for card see the april issue magazine for their review they noted this person problem with dos the stealth card not very good dos performer the actix card rated the best this chip class non local bus got glowing reports from the magazine was best buy and called them directly and they just updated their windows drivers last week they have bulletin board get the latest drivers though somone posted that this bbs was any rate the actix graphics engine ultra outperforms all the other cards the class based the winmark results you are looking for the all around best dos windows performance check out the actix card their number the article magazine noted that you are regular dos user games then you should also check out the chip from apparently scores just well and many cases slightly better dos than the chip stealth and actix cards they have comparable windows performance and are cheaper buy eric
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager two questions actually with several sharware utilities you change both fav plug bryan dunne
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet thomas fellrath edu edu wrote the key issue that bought was ink drying speed was the trenton computer fest and there were many sources ink refills for the and canon you don like the ink you using you have choice there frequently asked question faq list that reposted occasionally that reports how refill the cartridges yourself with inks that are available from the stationery store instead specialty ink with the specialty price not sure but think found another legal source cheap hypos for injecting ink into the cartridges more that when mail order succeeds jeffrey jonas jeffj panix com
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	monoumb does anyone know where the program monoumb available have checked windows system disks and monoumb there but not the other one thanks stan kucera skucera prstorm bison stan kucera
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	visual clarify considered upgrade for there will product called although the command line compiler lists its version not dos only product compiler capable producing executables for dos windows pro the significant difference that comes with many windows hosted tools ide etc which assist developers creating windows executables much more quickly basically automating the thousands lines boilerplate code initial impressions have been very favorable everyone who registered user should have received considerable amount info regarding the specifics you haven call microsoft and sure they happy send you some jefrem iwaniw pelican software corporation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	off line mail looking for program called vbreader off line mail reader for windows using qwk mail packets anyone knows any good qwk mail readers please let know thanks kevin kevin donoghue internet donoghue donoghue win net donoghue international few love hear the sins they love act grand ave suite william shakespear ventura
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	wordbasic sdk request for information have been reading about organisation called winword developer relations group believe they have produced publications called winword software development kit wordbasic sdk and the proceedings the windows developers tools conference wordbasic sessions assembled steve wexler would you able help with contact name and address for this organisation these publications thank you adrian pitt systems administrator dsto corporate information systems unit melbourne lorimer street fishermens bend vic australia phone fax email pitt cis dsto gov
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	viewsonic experience sought appreciate you can email post you positive negative experience with this monitor especially compared nanao summarize got multiple responses thanks kin kin cho kin isi com voice ext integrated systems inc fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bernoulli drives disks article rhm agate berkeley edu nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes article onk netnews jhuapl edu ncmoore netnews jhuapl edu nathan moore writes nilayp violet berkeley edu nilay patel writes looking for bernoulli removable tapes for the drive don laugh serious you have any tapes lying around that you would like get rid please mail nilay patel nilayp violet berkeley edu you mean disks don you not tapes you forgot say whether you were looking for the old the newer well need the old disks you are right disks better word but they are big and calling them disks kind funny but the appropriate word disks gee remember the old floppy disks used system back high school not mention those old multi platter disk packs that held about that went the big washing machine drives the local college took some programming classes and this was even the early tom paladin world std com disk disk matter how great how small paraphrasing gulliver travels
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	col mail messages windows editors have modest system aliases macros that enables download mail from public access unix system dos box read and reply the mail with windows based editor everything works peachey keen long the author the message has maintained his text col max width sometimes get slightly wider messages that run off screen have use the cursor slider read the whole thing using ndw deskedit mainly but experienced the same prob with all other windows editors fiddled with word wrap settings the various editors but avail know missing something very basic editor setup but what yeah word for windows converts everything flawlessly but for what looking for that like using tank crack walnuts really like have editor setup that would display all incoming ascii files readable format screen thanks advance erich lantz ama ewl world std com distributor deflagration virago well yer dead now shut
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet article eki kvp vcd com edmoore vcd com moore writes thomas fellrath edu edu wrote the key issue that bought was ink drying speed you really have try awful hard get the ink smear the deskjets need seconds completely dry both cases however not get your pages wet unlike laser printers the material your pages ink not toner but that should without saying think the ink now used the deskjet family water fast had pictures ruined few drops rain these were colour pictures from deskjet mind you could have been acid rain use ink dries fast but really doesn like getting wet justin whitton jjw hermes mod relay where man has gone before after august mail jjw brunel disclaimer opinions count for nothing except when the office empty student intelligence
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ami pro and pctools compress doesn like being moved has anyone had problems with ami pro after running pctools compress have not corrupted data due having caches other than cache running that not the first time try run ami pro after loading windows loads but causes think was segmentation fault amipro exe right before finishes with all times after that only managing get the logo box that first pops when begins loading and then causes general protection fault module amiproui dll have not been able fix this problem except reinstalling ami pro this has happened twice with both times being after having ran compress hard drive btw not running stacker any other disk compression programs and you don already know pctools compress actually defragger despite name system mhz with ram and nec oem hard drive etc but that shouldn make difference please email can keep with the newsgroup and will cut down net traffic anyways thanks derek dpiaseck jarthur claremont edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	novell article apr csc canterbury cctr csc canterbury nick fitzgerald software consultant csc uoc writes article msuinfo msu edu bilan cps msu edu thomas bilan writes put lastdrive config sys netx will run but can access drive log novell don put lastdrive config sys can access other drives from the file manager seems that there should way make netx work with the lastdrive statement config sys first off haven used but think that about change the problem the lastdrive command and the way netware general and this case netx particular adds drives the device chain setting lastdrive means there are unassigned opposed unused drive letters for netware use tacks its drive mappings onto the end the existing list drives obviously attaches its network drives existing unused drive letters guess the next thing try something like lastdrive which most machines will leave fair swathe drives for and still allow netware drive mappings well requires dos drives use lastdrive which makes first novell drive and leaves drives and for local dos drives use ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos eid have hard drive what should set the compression ratio using dos double disk have format erase everything double the full can just make mirror hard drive thanx the help darren lavallee origin csrn files lines internet usenet
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet justin whitton jjw isis ajax rsre mod wrote article eki kvp vcd com edmoore vcd com moore writes thomas fellrath edu edu wrote think the ink now used the deskjet family water fast had pictures ruined few drops rain these were colour pictures from deskjet mind you could have been acid rain the black ink waterfast but the color isn use ink dries fast but really doesn like getting wet justin whitton jjw hermes mod relay where man has gone before after august mail jjw brunel disclaimer opinions count for nothing except when the office empty student intelligence bob taylor vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	reboot when start windows recently the following problem has arrisen the first time turn computer when windows starts from autoexec after the win title screen the computer reboots its own usually the second time after reboot from the dos prompt everything works fine far remember have not changed config sys autoxec bat win ini can remember whether this problem occured before optimized defragmented disk and created larger swap file thank you mathcad system stacker win dos carlos niederstrasser only two things are infinite princeton planetary society the universe and human stupidity and not sure about the former einstein carlosn phoenix princeton edu space phoenix princeton edu astra per ardua nostra
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary borland microsoft database libraries well amazed how successful this exercise was received responses and requests for summary thanks everyone who made possible own was able find out about codebase accsys and codebase and accsys are libraries without sql windows application that can communicated through windows dde calls where you send sql string and receive the results most people wrote tell about the paradox engine from borland other products mentioned were microsoft odbc accsys quadbase codebase rbase and only odbc quadbase rbase and have sql for myself decided codebase mostly because has ansi portability version that runs under dos unix etc and includes the source code and portability important application works with dbase foxpro clipper files however feel that microsoft odbc looks very promising mostly formalisation building and submitting sql queries and formatting query results the responses say available via ftp except effectively unusuable without two manuals the odbc programmer reference and the odbc sdk guide moreover odbc doesn actually interpret sql and liase with databases that drivers that should provided database manufacturers also windows only actually extension the windows sdk nevertheless start sql interface standard and should make life interesting the future here original post followed the responses separated line asterisks does anyone know borland microsoft have libraries for accessing their respective databases paradox foxpro from within programs really like able build sql query string and pass function which returns the query results some format failing that any other access would still better than nothing also like hear third party libraries for doing the same thing other people are interested prepare summary what told and post thanks all borland has product called paradox engine that does just what you want the current version which fully compatible with ack paradox why the versions are different don know engine was compatible with pdox and consists rather broad library functions for accesing database files from both pascal think turbo pascal and and think either microsoft borland now reading the box borland paradox engine database frameworks works with any borland mocrosoft later turbo for windows turbo pascal later for windows later for framework applications later does have support for object useage haven had real chance really use myself but looks fairly complete planning use this summer rick rick osterberg osterber husc harvard edu harvard yard mail center cambridge usa borland has product which called paradox engine not know about the paradox engine know very well and definitiely not replacement for sql but will enable you save and restore records has locking supposedly the paradox for windows was impemented top charles parker phone technical support centerline software inc fax cparker centerline com cyberspace momma don let yer children grow cowboys know borland has library routines for accessing paradox from within program they recently came out with version this works with both borland and microsoft compiler shailesh bhobe att psp smb has put their odbc sdk into the public domain big believe but worth downloading over fast link look ftp net vendor microsoft odbc sdk also some companies are starting provide sql engines just got one for rbase not exactly cheap but allows programs vbasic under dos windows talk data bases using sql functions your code hth walter knopf fermilab knopf fnal fnal gov check out the odbc toolikt from microsoft available ftp net vendor microsoft odbc sdk this the way that chosen access databases from all our apps ppppp sssssiiiiii specialists windows and windows development ppss call for information about our ooa ood tool ooaid ppppp ssss michaeljon miller mikem apertus com proficient solutions inc sssss iiiiii holmes ave minneapolis borland sells the paradox engine which language interface paradox dbase btrieve ans asci files they also sell database frameworks which includes the engine plus collection with source classes for using the engine earl roethke eroethke ems cdc com actualy have paradox engine library functions large model for accessing the paradox databases seems working fine but never did try thouroughly costs hope will help you from david lefebvre david speedware com borland provides database lib called paradox engine which can access and use the database files aswell many other things gary bell nellads monash edu gary bell department robotics and digital technology faculty computing caulfield campus monash university australia paradox engine the library for paradox artur babecki artur edu borland sells the paradox engine which has all the paradox calls its hardly sql though you can searches key fields and indivual fields but comparison operators like its pretty painful opinion anything besides simple retrieval and inserts updates currently using have eval copy and linked some entry screens written the engine library adds about the size the program but you can load overlay using borland vroom manager now borland claims that later versions the engine will have sql support but they don really expect till late the year even next year they are trying get thrid parties help out you have any other questions let know mike kamlet mike vpnet chi yes borland sells their paradox engine separately has and pascal interfaces although the underlying interface well least for version the engine which have costed egghead they now have version the engine and separate class package for michael kersenbrock adc kentrox portland oregon michaelk kentrox com uunet kentrox michaelk used accsys for paradox new version almost ready for paradox access paradox files from its pretty good not sql though have heard borland paradox engine some such which supposed likewise but not sure what exactly hope this helps good luck chris from fernand slinky nyu edu christopher fernandes borland sells their paradox engine library functions for accessing paradox files comes with libraries for bcc turbo pascal and believe comes with turbo pascal win libraries well the libraries come both dos and windows flavors the win stuff being dll when got also came with crystal reports which graphical report generator allows you create generic form and use within compiled program using pdox engine don know they still offer what the current price paid something like for upgrade from the earlier version though hope this helps david taylor the commander easier change the internet prism gatech edu specification fit the program also dtaylor cfd gatech edu than vice versa and root cfd gatech edu author unknown but very wise you want sql from within your programs check out quadbase don have their address oops yes quadbase systems inc lucerne sunnyvale usa phone voice fax ask for the sql win demo disk looked good have background embedded sql ingres this looked real similar little expensive but you order the demo and then just wait they will probably send you special offer that probably run about good luck best tom delosh from delosh emunix emich edu tom delosh borland has the paradox engine library has libraries for both and pascal access paradox files under dos windows but for paradox believe you have buy have the sql link since pdox itself isn sql compliant used the engine for over year now and have been pretty satisfied with under dos real pig tacks about the size your programs tim associate programmer university utah email tim src cppa utah edu don know about microsoft but borland sells the paradox engine for pascal one package and you want dbase compatible files there library called codebase from sequiter software that works with from davidr rincon ema rockwell com david ray using database libraries what you describe set dll accessed through common api talk most the major database formats using build application that queries several databases using sql queries all access using done using sql the package available through microway melbourne believe produced pioneer systems the have association with microway pioneer systems other than being satisfied customers feel free mail for further information chris programming for nsw national parks and wildlife service chris hutchinson box research programmer university new england chris sulaw law armidale nsw paradox engine provides complete set libraries for accessing paradox tables however seems that supports only borland turbo and microsoft when tried compile the engine sample applications with the waterloo watcom bit compiler complains that the library file llibce lib missing even though quite certain that the file not part watcom the engine anybody have any success with other compilers ron hydro currently developing app with borland paradox engine for also comes pascal which has recently gone version engine compatible with paradox and downward compat there are indeed libs for fox access but can think the names offhand sure someone has already written you that regard think just saw add for fox lib the users journal which good place look for this type package general the way been paying dues learn lot the quirks eng over the past year wouldn recommend for complex multiuser app but staying with for now like bad marriage got too much time invested learning and work arounds but your interest limited simple single user interface you want build your own sql engine take engine will the job easily doesn sound like you bumping into any the gotchas you write may able point you the right direction from raymond cruzio santa cruz raymond borland has paradox engine and database framework which gives you and assembler api paradox databases this part boca borland object component architecture they have technical briefs boca pdoxeng and other products theirs from jdm jumbo read tasc com james mcnamara james mcnamara tasc walkers brook drive reading john bongiovanni systems analyst orbital engine company perth australia oecjtb oec orbital dialix bongo alumni caltech edu opinions expressed are own and not those organisation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	telephone cirrus logic article news hawaii edu chen galileo ifa hawaii edu hua chen writes there anybody who knows the telephone number cirrus logic maker graphic card please reply chen cfa harvard edu thank you very much hua chen center for astrophysics bbs number ron
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	program manager two questions apr vpnet chi lisbon vpnet chi gerry swetsky writes can you set short cut key return the program manager know ctl esc esc will but rather set can avoid the task list and get back the with alt you might try the recorder and make micro done that certain operations windows app that didn have the ability use micro should the accessories window the only problem that has runing for work but good luck warren fridy iii street north petersburg internet wefiii axion palan palantir com uucp palan deep axion wefiii
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	drivers for stealth doug ward writes recently purchased diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where can ftp the proper drivers the dstlth file cica does not work with this video card please respond doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward you want get them and get them now also the most date use the bbs they may take hour download when rates are low yeah know costs but locking your system gets old quick maybe someone has them the net got the stealth drivers david
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mouse jumpiness solved can guarantee that work for everyone but finally fixed mouse jumpiness problems installed bus mouse sorry didn say the solution was free the past tried everything with microsoft serial mouse cleaning unloading all kinds tsrs turning off smartdrv write cacheing changing com ports nothing worked yesterday finally broke down and bought mouse systems bus mouse the improvement even better than had imagined much that old mouse must have been jumpy all the time just thought was jumpy sometimes and had gotten used didn notice wife who uses the computer about once month noticed the improvement literally within second can say anything about other bus mice but with the mouse systems one you have give either com lpt irq also you don know mouse systems mice have three buttons the driver includes utility that lets you assign keystrokes the middle button hope this helps someone else you anywhere near frustrated was well worth the stephen thomas tridom email sat eng tridom com attmail tridom sat
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	kermit available for windows hello all was wondering the kermit package the actual package not different program with kermit file transfers available for microsoft windows any information would greatly appreciated please mail post thanks advance unabashed shabba ranks fan steve frampton frampton vicuna ocunix steve frampton collect postcards you send one from princess your area send one return send kingston ontario don forget both email and mailing address canada
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	summary borland microsoft database libraries could you post description objectbase your chosen product thanks
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win file systems will some one out there tell why how dos can read havn tried writing case breaks something the win ntfs file system thought ntfs was supposed better than the fat system keith
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	mail order sales billing receivables program surely some one you familiar with what mail order company goes through this company has only few products but thousands clients need sales billing and receivables program handle the thing but need able customize myself own the source etc anyone willing sell the basic stuff any development language willing pay about has ready now need this sort solution immediately with more time just develop one myself you can have prototype two weeks you can make some quick cash dixon berry see the light cfdeb cts eiu edu the end the tunnel now eastern illinois university thanks bill clinton booth library someone please tell computer resource center not train cracker
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	ami pro and pctools compress doesn like being moved sorry about that don want alarm anyone don think there any correlation between the crashes and pctools reinstalled ami pro and ran compress again with problems think problems may have been related filling disk until had bytes left while ftping although would think wouldn matter since ami pro wasn running the time and made space available immediately anyways but whatever the cause working now derek
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	workspace managers for win small review cah tactix rain com chris huey writes jamie scuglia jamie zikzak apana org wrote thanks all those people who recommended workspace managers for windows found shareware workspace managers from australia windows archive monu monash edu which mirrors some sites the the three found were workspaces wspace zip review deleted workshift wrksft zip review deleted bigdesk and backmenu backdesk zip review deleted really appreciate this information however given that don have direct internet access which means don have archie access must resort using ftpmail this means that need the site name and the directory where these workspace managers are located backdesk zip cica but not sure the whole directory another throw into the running topdesk alsow cica but not sure where more complicated then backdesk but found more stable and more usefull recomend people who have already used virtual desktop yeh free copyright microsoft and sanford staab carl zmola cicero spc uchicago edu
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos problem running windows windows for work groups and just loaded dos what happening appears graphics problem with file manager added some menubar buttons but there appears gray boxed region that covers the top rds the button row these buttons are row below the pulldown menus the pulldown menus look fine and the disk label region looks fine but you only see the bottom few pixels the task buttons anyone else experience this thanks david ransier davidr pdx mentorg com these comments are own paid for office them own them they not fax employers and you can have them
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	canon bubblejet and deskjet article vcd com robertt vcd com bob taylor writes justin whitton jjw isis ajax rsre mod wrote article eki kvp vcd com edmoore vcd com moore writes thomas fellrath edu edu wrote think the ink now used the deskjet family water fast had pictures ruined few drops rain these were colour pictures from deskjet mind you could have been acid rain the black ink waterfast but the color isn use ink dries fast but really doesn like getting wet justin whitton jjw hermes mod relay where man has gone before after august mail jjw brunel disclaimer opinions count for nothing except when the office empty student intelligence bob taylor vancouver
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	for sale borland application frameworks please excuse this inappropriate post here but not read these groups normally and did not see any related marketplace newsgroups for sale borland with application frameworks full professional developer kit borland programming package including unopened software unopened manuals and registration card software includes still plastic wrapped high density inch disks for borland total diskettes individually wrapped packages each disk has borland and app frameworks label amish system utilities for windows one high density disk amish launch amish desk utilities for windows phar lap dos extender lite version one disk manuals include still plastic wrapped manuals include unopened boland windows api volumes reference guide reference guide iii windows reference guide borland turbo debugger user guide borland turbo profiler user guide borland turbo assembler users guide borland user guide integrated environment optimization command line compiler installation borland programmer guide language structure class libraries advanced prgramming techniques anci implementaion borland library reference runtime library global variables cross reference borland tools and utilities guide error messages winsightm make help resource compilers tlink borland object windows for user guide tutorials class reference opened plastic wrapping but unread manuals include borland turbo assembler quick reference guide borland turbo vision for user guide borland resource workshop user guide this package was purchased former employee father and father has asked try and sell since neither have any use for retails for most software houses have for approx asking you are interested please mail directly because not normally read this newsgroup aaron herskowitz aherskow alleg edu allegheny college meadville pennsylvania
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	strange enhanced behavior howdy have been having real problem with ast machine with ram installed paradox for windows but don think paradox the real problem here and the installation went windows installed local drive paradox installed novell network netware greater dos win but the program will not load enchanted mode the thermometer bar goes and then either get invalid command com windows nastygram talking about illegal instruction checked out the command com thing but long time programmer crashed share machines with pointer problems and this standard behavior anyway paradox will run standard mode but not enhanced also have quattro pro windows exhibiting the same behavior spent about hours with borland tech people with avail the guy talked microsoft didn want really dig and help gave pretty quickly somewhat disappointing really expected more from microsoft you think with all the millions windows installations that they would have seen all the possible problems but guess not microsoft had sent page fax fixing uae and general protection faults sorry can fax anything out here please don ask try microsoft which tried did everything they said and still luck you can help please mail this problem driving nuts will greatly appreciate any information anyone can pass thanks kelly this the real signature please ignore the following demon signature kelly grant grantk nosc mil hancock the next time someone asks you you san diego are god you say yes kelly grant grantk manta nosc mil computer sciences corp important manta uucp won get hancock street you are given lemons see you can trade for san diego chocolate
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	why mouse jumpy mouse ecktons ucs byu edu sean eckton writes have microsoft serial mouse and using mouse com was using think but switched see was any better vertical motion nice and smooth but horizontal motion bad sometimes can click something because mouse jumps around can moving the mouse the right with relatively uniform motion and the mouse will move smoothly for bit then jump the right then move smoothly for bit then jump again maybe this time the left about inch this crazy have never had much trouble with mouse before anyone have any solutions try this flip your mouse over and open the cover that holds the mouse ball place remove the ball and inside you should see probably rollers any the rollers have tiny layer caked dirt dust otherwise unidentifiable scum them carefully scrape off with small knife xacto works great careful you not want gauge the rollers just clean off the dirt put the ball back put the cover and there you are clean couple dozen these every month here another symptom that when you move the mouse seems click along this doesn solve your problem least you have clean mouse highly recommend using proper soft mouse pad and you are clean freak place your drawer every night when you don use keep the dust off personally prefer track balls which brings another point your mouse trackball tracks optically and the sunlight streaming through the window onto your mouse trackball you may notice that will stop working this happens you close the curtains blinds simply shade your pointing device and see that helps peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu preferred pgoudswa cln etc pgoudswa cue there gift like the present goudswaard observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	winqvtnet with ndis token ring 
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	more diamond dil admin mhs unc edu dave laudicina writes has anyone experienced faint shadow all resolutions using this card only windows have replaced card and waiting latest drivers also have experienced general protection fault errors wspdpsf drv winword tools option menu and winfax setup had ati ultra but was getting genral protection fault errors spss application these card manufactures must have terrible quality control let products the market with many bugs what hassle running gateway thx dave might the problem not with the video monitor instead many our monitors they age develop shadows white and bright colors peter goudswaard goudswaa sfu preferred pgoudswa cln etc pgoudswa cue there gift like the present goudswaard observation
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	what does the bmp format mean what exactly does the windows bitmap format look like mean how the data stored width height colours bitmap data couldn find anything ths user manual there any other reference material which would give this information thanks andrew
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dll and registerclass createwindow all have dll which register class and create window that class type both calls require module instance handle hinstance petzold book says that best use the module instance handle the calling program not the module instance handle the dll page have two questions there way find out the module instance handle module what are the possible problems with using the instance handle the dll thanks advance mike mike smith mail smith bull com bull information systems inc phone concord road fax billerica usa
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	roman bmp response the requests for cool bitmaps posting one due the resolution and size parts this uuencoded bitmap colors the picture marbled gazebo desert with blue sky background the size just right for centered wallpaper display because leaves border the bottom just big enough for icons fit without being top the picture reguarding image quality and resolution have not seen much better for those you who haven worked with pieced image files here how put back together save the parts individual files use text editor remove the header and footer each file concatinate all the parts into single file uudecode the file there are tools available this without the hassle such uuconvert unix and uucoder windows neccesary could post these tools where get them ftp let know keywords bitmap wallpaper
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	stealth video drivers recently purchased diamond stealth video card and received the wrong drivers does anyone know where can ftp the windows video drivers for the stealth tried the drivers cica and they don work the right drivers are the diamond bbs but the file almost meg and would take while download them baud any information would appreciated please contact doug sun sws uiuc edu thank you doug ward
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	netware win fileman there update something that will allow person when using novell and windows file manager view the files with the name the person who created changed like the novell command ndir tim osburn osburn halcyon com tim osburn gbq osburn halcyon com bellevue washington
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	bbbbig problem with print file help article mar jupiter sun csd unb dwoo unb writes all the experts have file that three pages long with line equations plus diagram the size this file about before unlinking all the embedded objects and after unlinking all the embedded objects well when print since don have laser printer have send print file gives back bbbbbbig file that well over long just fail see how file can boosted file obviously will not able carry this file the public printer unless find myself network card cable etc could anyone please enlighten with solution already try print page time still won fit into floppy thanx mil dennis woo department mechanical engineering mail dwoo unb university new brunswick tel once had this problem all did was copy the whole doc new file the problem was gone hope this helps hua
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	tidying after removing ole server article liverpool liverpool chris wooff writes while ago installed spss for windows part evaluation once the evaluation was complete duly deleted the software from unfortunately there still ghost spss left when run something like write and embed object then spss chart appears the list objects offered looked around all the obvious ini files without success the next thing tried was looking for the string spss chart every file the windows directory turned file called req dat reg dat unfortunately the file was binary and didn feel inclined edit welcome solution for removing spss from the list ole servers chris wooff wooff liverpool you can edit that file with utility that comes with windows called regedit registration info editor bob hodge going fishing you got worms yeah but going anyway
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	win file systems article apr spider keiths spider keith smith writes will some one out there tell why how dos can read havn tried writing case breaks something the win ntfs file system thought ntfs was supposed better than the fat system keith dos cannot read the ntfs file system although the ntfs file system can read the fat file system dos have windowsnt seperate partition machine home and can read dos disks from windows but not vice versa far the robustness the file system seems very fast and have yet have single problem with that doesn prove better than the fat system though read the book inside windows will give you all the info you looking for scott scott reimert reimert mamacass etdesg trw com standard disclaimer redondo beach blah blah blah always store beer cool dark place
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	viewsonic experience sought nec appreciate you can email post you positive negative experience with this monitor especially compared nanao summarize got multiple responses bought viewsonic for use home but after week took back felt for the money nec that use work was much better monitor the nec sharper flatter less distorted and more stable have heard complaints from people about the nec series having some quality control problems but mine has been use for about year with problems all there was nothing really broken with the viewsonic but overall did not match used ati graphics ultra setup mode push the frequencies their limits and the viewsonic exhibited some problems that the nec did not personally like the non etched nec with the ocli filter and the tube the was not nice the had some uncorrectable pincusion and edge distortion problems also would change brightness when switched modes and was constantly having fiddle with the controls and the yoke was crooked and had way compensate for the raster that tilted downhill the postive side although not handsome the nec the had smaller footprint and was not heavy have heard that panasonic owns viewsonic and the model being sold through oem channels with panasonic label available that way lower cost could get more serious about for now the nec has vote but searching for one the new cheaper nec fge see just good its older brother the before decide which one buy have experience with the nanao can never keep the nanao models straight and don have any place can walk get good comparison all models standard employer disclaimers apply keith johnson tektronix gpi info services wilsonville usa internet keith johnson tek com voice fax
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	rfd comp windows misc setup this the official request for discussion rfd for the creation two new newsgroups for microsoft windows this second rfd replacing the one originally posted january and never taken vote the proposed groups are described below name comp windows setup status unmoderated purpose discussions about setting and installing windows and about system and peripheral compatability issues for windows name comp windows misc status unmoderated purpose miscellaneous non programming discussions about using windows including issues such security networking features console mode and windows win compatability rationale microsoft the newest member the microsoft windows family operating systems operating environments for those who wish argue about the meaning the family ranges from modular windows through windows and windows for workgroups windows the high end date microsoft has shipped over beta copies and pre release sdks windows the actual release slated for may june while windows has entirely new design internally shares application programming interface with the other members the windows family its win api includes the win api used win dows and the win api subset win less threads networking and security can used create bit applications for windows the user interface also practically identical that windows with the addition logins and few other features uses program manager file manager and other applets and generally pre sents identical appearance the user many the announced windows applications are ports existing windows apps and also runs existing applications thus appears logical that windows should share the following groups with the other members the windows family comp windows apps comp windows programmer tools comp windows programmer misc comp windows programmer win the following groups are also clearly applicable windows well windows comp windows announce comp windows advocacy conclusion the only clear argument for the separation the windows and windows hierarchies different internal structures windows and windows and yet operating systems such macintosh xenix and coherent all have undergone major rewrites without having been split into separate newsgroup hierarchies further windows due for major rewrite itself when the fully bit protected mode and with dos built next generation windows chicago debuts next year surely should remain the same hierarchy and what then would the jus tification for separating windows from other windows versions discussion period the discussion period will run from april may voting the cfv call for votes will issued around may based the feedback received during the discussion period votes will accepted prior the cfv tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners your mouth now pull that how the corrado makes you feel car january
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dde frustrations can you help starting work project using dde transfer data the application came with excel macro which can transfer the data need port uses very different setup for dde macros does anyone have any suggestions good references have downloaded windows dynamic exchange dde the application note any books worth getting the specifics are server application dionex chromatography data system client application for windows except for the macro dionex did not provide any documentation for dde also having problems because trying develop the application but actually get data you need connect the instrument any help here would appreciated too thanks leon olszewski nothing worse than having itch you can internet leono uiuc edu never scratch leon bladerunner
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	dos window macros does anyone know program that will record keyboard sequences that windowed dos box would like have something that starts telnet program and then logs into accounts windows recorder doesn seem able record the key sequences thanks steve
comp.os.ms-windows.misc	adobe and adobe wanted create postcript file with win print laserwriter created postcript file version adobe but our laser accept only adobe how resolve this problem thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted bus card for logitech mouse acquired old logitech series button mouse and told that this bus mouse does anyone want unload old clone bus card for this mouse email replies bobmon indiana edu thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	flame therapy think would great idea have new group created comp sys ibm flame therapy anybody agree
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	warning copy board help copying zwc acsu buffalo edu kcbp ubvmsd buffalo edu mitch writes now does anyone know way back the masters word perfect for windows windows and norton can send another copy permanent non college address for safe keeping students keep borrowing masters and worried they get screwed please don tell you realize course that inevitably some anal retentive moron going come along and wag his fingers and his jowls outrage that personal politics are more important than smcap bold font god the law smcap bold font but that irrelevant the problem here windows came with system but disks hate using disks copied them over high density using xcopy worked fine fact for while was changing configurations and whatnot much that decided try putting them the hard disk not only can you copy them over with one disk per directory but you want you can simply copy them all into one directory makes lot nicer when you switching printer emulations around norton don have much experience with but when friend system crashed restored from backup rather than from the originals and worked fine this would imply that arj norton would create workable backup and you did full install the first time you got the whole thing never played with for windows not too big fan anything from utah good luck disclaimer don copy that floppy just say respect your elders for the wages sin sic death and hefty legal bill you offend rob rob kudla acm rpi edu keywords oldfield jane leather yes win phish light blue right bondage dtp steely dan fnm owl genesis the spaceship the silver spaceship the lion takes control
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	keyboard article hxg nxl rpi edu wen yingyang ral rpi edu john wen writes from wen yingyang ral rpi edu john wen subject keyboard summary location cap lock and ctrl keys keyboard keywords cap lock and ctrl key date mon apr gmt does anyone know software that can exchange caps lock and ctrl keys the style keyboard looking for memory resident program that can work with other programs rather than feature specific program aware shareware program back and forth that provides this feature within that program thanks program the archive keymap zip simtel and mirror sites the msdos keyboard directory will this written assembler and best you have compiler create new keyboard map possible however use binary editor edit the provided compiled keyboard driver you not have compiler used hexed zip also available simtel simply serach for the codes locate the biginning the normal keyboard map then swap the codes for the keys that you wish swap see the keyboard directory simtel for programs that report the scancode for each key you some bios programs also have this info good luck pete peter mckinney longs lance colostate edu electrohydrodynamic laboratory fluid mechanics and wind engineering program civil engineering department colorado state university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help identify video hardware need device either isa board subsystem which will take two rgb video signals and combine them according template the template can simple rectangular window with signal one being used for the interior and signal two for the exterior but beleive fancier harware may also exist which not want exclude from search know this sort hardware exists for ntsc etc but need for rgb please email and post any leads gordon lang glang smail srl ford com glang holo srl ford com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how long monitors last well inch vga interlacing year old brand monitor just bit the bullet pressed the power switch and few seconds later the power light went out with pop gawd only been two and half years how long would normal monitors last think the problem with monitor the power switch but the image was getting pretty dim anyway needed have contrast all the way the max and the screen did flicker from time time this normal hehehe just have the worst luck question what now buy new one get fixed save for really good one and get with cheap ega monitor for now rather save money upgrade though thanks what engineers say extensive effort being applied fresh approach the problem what they really mean just hired three new guys let them kick around for while robert bobby yung lehigh edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	attn ken smith model number interlaced btw you have number contact the company that would really helpful thanks for replying was beginning believe that was never going get reply posted this the netnews bboard because the first message sent you was returned and didn know second message would get you calvin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	share your optimization tips article pinnp geraldo utexas edu jbodnar ccwf utexas edu john bodnar writes according unl edu edgar pearlstein here another one computer arrived with the following statement its config sys file stacks changed stacks and saved bytes maybe could lowered even more but haven tried exactly regardless what microsoft says have set stacks every single computer have installed windows from simple with eisa motherboards ndi volante tiga adapters intel ethernet express cards and caching scsi controllers from dpt and dtc not problem yet and the extra gained means lot with conventional memory gobbling programs like orcad and tango pcb john bodnar while liked developing windows the university texas austin applications never inhaled internet jbodnar ccwf utexas edu uucp utexas ccwf jbodnar borland ceo philippe kahn remember reading somewhere qemm manual think that stack needed only for the windows setup program otherwise use stack rich
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway and ati problem was wondering anyone out there has had the same problem having with gateway bus system with ati graphics ultra pro when have computer any resolution other than everything fine but whenever use windows autocad gifs the screen gets about inches shorter the very top and very bottom the screen there about bar black the screen isn cut off just squeezes everything into the smaller space and messes the aspect ratio while can manually change the size the back this pain the ass and just shouldn happen anyway called gateway numerous times and they haven been able help all two different times they sent new card and both times the new card didn work all computer they even tried bill for the first card because they didn get back couple days when they told over the phone that they would wait more than weeks before billing card but their customer support different story anyone has had this same problem please let know you know what hell let know you don have solution just know not the only one with this problem thanks advance jude greer jmgree starbase spd louisville edu already tried going into the mach install program and manually set ting the card doesn work whenever try increase the vertical size the screen just starts cut off the top and bottom
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	and simms article edu nshah acs edu writes have gateway local bus system has slots for simms that either have use simms question just received simm and has pins the slot the motherboard has least pins did get the wrong simm can still use simm although not all the pins the slot would flilled have never encountered such long slot for simms before anyone have suggestions can get hold gateway yet thanks please post the net nshah acs edu yes you bought the wrong simms you need which are pin simms these are better anyway becuase the send receive data byte bit bit parity one for each byte chunks you will undoubtedly see these simms becoming more widely used the near future jason jason walters jpw lehigh edu jpw eecs lehigh edu modem mouth
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	intel the pentium and linux inabu ibm clausthal arnd burghardt writes folks yesterday visited the cebit hannover germany where intel was presenting the pentium processor they had four words machines with this beast running they presented nicely unly running picture shows this could the presentor promised binary compatible the and said don believe showed him one disk linux system emergency disk with patched lilo boot from disk and said him convice boot this guts glory decided glory won let anybody touch his holy cows and not even boot suspect thought myself this the coward the day and went back earth what learn this technology far from industrial standarts you can expect this beast your local computer shop least spring next year only cents yes only your here mine were running new chip trade show and had little real technical knowledge wouldn let some stranger with diskette boot demo machine the demo machine down too long people will not see nice demos and this purposted linux diskette really something that will wipe the disk loaded with virus deep trouble marketer their right mind would let you this unless they had specifically invited people and provided machines with can learn this technology will shipping from vendors may and will compatible the golden gryphon gryphon openage com the crown jewel the american prison system president bill clinton living the white house openage the premier sco unix integrator the washington area
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	warranty extension credit company applies the phurchase computer huayong yang yang titan ucs umass edu wrote most not all credit card companies offer double the warranty one year namely you make purchase credit card you get additional warranty one year does apply the purchase computers wonder anyone out there has used there any catch thanks advance just about post the results big computer purchase one the key points was the ability use american express card read the fine print between double warranty policies amex and citibank visa sure both will allow you double warranty computers but citibank has maximum claim could you imagine trying get your monitor mother board fixed for amex has limit claims remember you use amex you must either send copy the warranty info them days from purchase you must call them pre register and then send them the paperwork within days purchase pre register pak arrived today citibank visa requires pre registration ken
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	another happy gateway owner since been seeing all kinds complaints regarding gateways lately here thought post recent pleasant experiences machine this past friday this was two weeks the day from when called the order upon unboxing found everything perfect order all the peripherals ordered were properly installed jumbo rom was very impressed with the quantity and quality the gateway documentation all software came with the original disks and manuals the gateway manual itself nice ring binder the ati gup came with build drivers all other software specified microsoft office was properly installed the machine came right out the box and has been performing flawlessly been all weekend and hardly even reaches room temperature think the big roomy tower case has lot with and running dos with problems also read about some people having problems with high speed serial communications used the dos interlink program which lets link old computer via serial port baud then maps the other machines two hard disks disks you can these drives and either run programs copy files almost like peer peer lan except you can also run programs the other machine not two way street the other machine the server and this machine the client thats where seems differ from the peer peer stuff for bundled dos utility its very impressive jumbo took about minutes back data also passed any potential gateway monitor problems taking the credit and applying towards nec love this monitor glad there some good news gateway stories and glad was now just keeps working john john gayman wbu uucp uunet wbu john packet wbu eah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	winmarks where can get where can get the winmarks benchmark run via ftp would best roger bix ruzun net uzun crash cts com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway and ati problem article jmgree starbase spd louisville edu jmgree starbase spd louisville edu jude greer writes was wondering anyone out there has had the same problem having with gateway bus system with ati graphics ultra pro when have computer any resolution other than everything fine but whenever use windows autocad gifs the screen gets about inches shorter the very top and very bottom the screen there about bar black the screen isn cut off just squeezes everything into the smaller space and messes the aspect ratio while can manually change the size the back this pain the ass and just shouldn happen anyway called gateway numerous times and they haven been able help all two different times they sent new card and both times the new card didn work all computer they even tried bill for the first card because they didn get back couple days when they told over the phone that they would wait more than weeks before billing card but their customer support different story anyone has had this same problem please let know you know what hell let know you don have solution just know not the only one with this problem thanks advance jude greer jmgree starbase spd louisville edu already tried going into the mach install program and manually set ting the card doesn work whenever try increase the vertical size the screen just starts cut off the top and bottom maybe its monitor problem you mentioned that you swapped cards but not monitors perhaps that could dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms utexas edu dcoleman ccwf utexas edu the university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simm for sale have pin simm for sale perfect condition will not work system because requires pin simms would like get what paid for for insured shipping addition you have pin eisa type simm for sale drop line thanks nimesh shah nshah acs edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	the infamous gateway video monitor problem info requested greg spath gks psuvm psu edu wrote article ueom evf odin corp sgi com mikey sgi com mike yang says going mailorder through gateway save plus get technical support over the phone free software package have fun trying get hold technical support over the phone least locally you can walk right the dealer and tell him what wrong and has fix phone support quick and competent from many mail order firms but not quick and not competent from others gateway included but experience with computer retailers which significant has lead the conclusion that sales personnel and retail technical personnel are forbidden actually learn about the products they sell talk about incompetent few percent their answers are correct but those salesmen don even realize how stupid they are settle down now let catch breath fact retail stores never provide better value terms price per product retail outlets are desirable however those people who aren interested learning about computers enough make their own decisions this fine for example most education about carpeting wall paper lawn mowers microwave ovens etc has come from sales personnel assume must idiot but don care about those things however care about computer demand features and performance and damned pay some high school drop out commission over rated over priced system and the process subjected his distorted are generally
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what shadow mask andrew colfelt colfelt ucsu colorado edu wrote shadow mask when you put your face into main memory keep your day job
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	drive controller compatibility thanks all who responded original post got the number for western digital tech support and determined that need upgrade the bios the super bios will handle hard drives with read write heads and cylinders the upgrade payable check money order send western digital corporation technical support group box irvine the super bios for any hard drive controller card the series the bios system would only handle drives the responses request for help follow sig warning long keith keith rice university north texas department computer science denton texas usa drice ponder csci unt edu drice unt edu responses below from ravalent mailbox syr edu sat apr received from mailbox syr edu ponder sat apr from ravalent mailbox syr edu bob valentine received from mothra syr edu mailbox syr edu cns sat apr est received mothra syr edu spike sat apr est date sat apr est message mothra syr edu drice ponder status drice ponder csci unt edu subject drive controller compatibility newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware reply drice ponder organization syracuse university syracuse article drice ponder you write recently bought used seagate hard drive the guy told that had been fully tested and that was good took home install compaq portable little behind technology already had mfm controller installed the drive and powered the system got post error controller western digital rev said above the drive seagate the system compaq portable circa finally question can answer mess with this older stuff alot kinda fun first problem can forsee that the will not compadible with that card unless has the right bios rom check the numbers should the only non smt chip the board slightly below center and left the bios should read either the last digits are you got problems controller jumpers are set follows represents jumper looks right and are factory jumped with trace between pins and select the primary controller address the drive jumpers are follows represents jumper looks right art deleted here are questions are the drive and controller compatible each other notice you left out the jumper table settings those are what control what drive the controller thinks has you have the rom set like this open open open open closed closed open open note those are how runs the numbers the jumper block top bottom represent the jumper pins pins and select the first drive setting drive and pins and select the second drive drive you have the rom auto config and have look how don have the big book right here are the jumpers the card drive set correctly see above you might have problems the jumpers are not right also the risk being insulting make sure the cables are right and good the jumper the try moving the opposite side the drive one the other the narrow data cable goes thrown few times and banged head for day system bios need upgrade dunno ibm roms had later than quick way check boot dos and run debug enter fff fffc the the debug prompt this will return the rom date any use keith rice oversimplified any the above appologize just hard know what caliber person talking bob valentine ravalent mailbox syr edu from chpp unitrix utr mon apr received from unitrix utr ponder mon apr received unitrix utr smail nfpma mon apr gmt message nfpma unitrix utr from chpp unitrix utr prof piacenza subject drice ponder date mon apr gmt mailer elm version mime version content type text plain charset ascii content transfer encoding bit content length status you are using twisted way cable then move the jumper your drive the neighbouring pins make sure that the twisted cable for hard disk and not floppy disk the coloured stripe pin should furthest from the twist this may also help products for systems hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives reference note feature half slot size hard disk controller card with interface supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders and jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features power connector for filecard applications and will also operate systems please note that this controller card will unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march reference note wdxt gen feature half slot size hard disk controller card with interface supports mfm hard disk drives with heads and cylinders built rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting please note that this controller card will unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march feature half slot size disk controller card with interface supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders and jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features power connector for filecard applications and will also operate systems reference note wdxt gen feature half slot size hard disk controller card with interface supports mfm hard disk drives with heads and cylinders built rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting reference note hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives reference note feature half slot size hard disk controller card with interface supports rll hard disk drives with heads and cylinders and jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features power connector for filecard applications and will also operate systems please note that this controller card will unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march reference note feature half slot size hard disk controller with interface supports rll drives with heads and cylinders built rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting bad track formatting and dynamic formatting please note that this controller card will unavailable from the manufacturer western digital after march feature half slot size hard disk controller card with interface supports rll hard disk drives with heads and cylinders and jumper configurable for secondary addressing and default drive tables built rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting dual drive operation bad track formatting and dynamic formatting this board features power connection for filecard applications and will also operate systems reference note feature half slot size hard disk controller with interface supports rll drives with heads and cylinders built rom bios supports non standard drive types virtual drive formatting bad track formatting and dynamic formatting note the and the plus contain system bios chips that support the hard disk drive when using western digital controller card the system will not boot solve this problem one the rom bios chips must disabled disable the bios your western digital controller card you must remove the jumper position add jumper position depending which model controller you are using note tandy systems the wdxt gen and the can modified operate tandy series computers models and the original version these computers utilize interrupt irq instead irq the ibm standard modify the the operate these systems you must cut the etch between pin and pin jumper position then solder pin and pin the position complete the modification jumper must added position switch rows pins please note that any physical modification your western digital hard disk controller voids the warranty your board modify the wdxt gen the for your tandy system zero ohm resister must soldered jumper position this will change the interrupt from irq irq controllers for floppy disk drives fox half slot floppy disk controller for systems four versions the board are available feature supports two floppy disk drives feature supports four floppy disk drives and includes optional pin control data and power connector and optional pin power connector feature supports two floppy disk drives and includes rom bios that will enable your system recognize floppy disk drive that may not supported your system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card operate high density floppy disk drives system feature supports four floppy disk drives and includes optional pin control data and power connector optional pin power connector and rom bios that will enable your system recognize floppy disk drives that may not supported your system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card operate high density floppy disk drives system products for systems hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives floppy support wah feature hard disk controller card with interface supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave feature hard disk controller card with interface supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed wah feature hard disk controller card with interface supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave feature hard disk controller card with interface supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due look ahead caching the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed hard disk controllers for mfm hard disk drives and floppy disk drives feature hard disk controller card with interface full form factor supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave and floppy disk drives and feature hard disk controller card with interface full form factor supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave and floppy disk drives and feature hard disk controller card with interface supports maximum mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave and floppy disk drives the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed feature hard disk controller card with interface supports maximum mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due look ahead caching and floppy disk drives the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives floppy support rah hard disk controller card with interface supports rll hard disk drives with heads and cylinders interleave hard disk controller card with interface supports maximum rll hard disk drives with heads and cylinders interleave the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed feature includes optional rom bios that allows the user define the drive parameters feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters rah hard disk controller card with interface supports maximum rll hard disk drives with heads and cylinders interleave feature includes optional rom bios that provides additional drive parameter tables feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controller card with interface supports rll hard disk drives with heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due look ahead caching the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed feature includes optional rom bios that allows the user define the drive parameters feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for rll hard disk drives and floppy disk drives feature hard disk controller card with interface supports maximum rll hard disk drives with heads and cylinders interleave and floppy disk drives hard disk controller card with interface supports maximum rll hard disk drives with heads and cylinders interleave and floppy disk drives the boards run high speed systems megahertz system speed feature includes optional rom bios that allows the user define the drive parameters feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controller card with interface supports maximum rll hard disk drives with heads cylinders and floppy disk drives also features interleave and faster data transfer due look ahead caching the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed feature includes optional rom bios that allows the user define the drive parameters feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for esdi hard disk drives floppy support wah this controller card will support esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate and interleave feature includes optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card interface with all types esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters this controller card will support esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate and interleave the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed feature includes optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card interface with all types esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters hard disk controllers for esdi hard disk drives and floppy disk drives this controller card will support esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy disk drives feature includes optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card interface with all types esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters this controller card will support esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy drives the boards can run high speed systems megahertz bus speed feature includes optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card interface with all types esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameters this controller card will support esdi hard disk drives megabit per second data transfer rate interleave and floppy disk drives this board also has serial port and parallel port feature includes optional rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card interface with all types esdi drives without modifying the system rom bios feature does not include the rom bios and you must use the drive tables your system rom bios that must contain the appropriate drive parameter hard disk controllers for scsi hard disk drives asc scsi host adapter that serves interface between the bus and the scsi bus all necessary drivers and receivers are included permitting direct cable connections the scsi bus through pin connector and the bus through two edge connectors the asc utilizes jumper configurable options that enable the address space dma channels and interrupt requests selected suit the end user application the board also features word data transfer megabytes per second synchronous board floppy disk controller and rom bios please note that the asc operates using standard dos dos only fasst this scsi host adapter card provides the same features the asc plus additional support capabilities using software developed columbia data products the fasst will support dos compaq dos dos mos version xenix microsoft windows novell and sytos tape backup wdatxt fasst kit unintelligent scsi host adapter that compatible with the ibm and compatible systems uses pin external scsi bus connector with standard pin internal scsi cable the wdatxt fasst can used both target and initiator and serves excellent tool for scsi designers also provides low cost alternative for end users desiring install scsi peripheral device such hard disk drive tape backup unit the kit includes bit scsi hba board manual fasst software diskettes and internal scsi cable sytos tape backup utility for fasst fasst sytos fasst version sytos tape backup utilities dos compatible runs with fasst software products revision hard disk controllers for model systems microchannel architecture feature hard disk controller with interface for microchannel systems supports mfm drives with heads and cylinders interleave and faster data transfer due look ahead caching the boards can run high speed systems megahertz system speed feature this controller card will support esdi hard disk drives megabit per second transfer rate and contains rom bios with shadow ram that will enable the controller card interface with all types esdi hard disk drives without modifying the system bios uses interleave the boards can run high speed systems megahertz bus speed controllers for floppy disk drives only fox half slot floppy disk controller for systems four versions the board are available feature supports two floppy disk drives feature supports four floppy disk drives and includes optional pin control data and power connector and optional pin power connector feature supports two floppy disk drives and includes rom bios that will enable your system recognize floppy disk drives that may not supported your system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card operate high density floppy disk drives system feature supports four floppy disk drives and includes optional pin control data and power connector optional pin power connector and rom bios that will enable your system recognize floppy disk drives that may not supported your system rom bios the optional rom bios will also allow this controller card operate high density floppy disk drives system prof piacenza chemistry department university transkei internet chpp unitrix utr preferred tel internet sppp hippo from necis mydual uucp olson transfer stratus com mon apr received from transfer stratus com ponder mon apr received from necis uucp transfer stratus com jjm mon apr edt received from mydual necis necis nec com apr edt received mydual uucp smail mon apr est date mon apr est from kirtland olson mydual olson transfer stratus com message mydual uucp drice ponder subject drive controller compatibility newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware reply drice ponder organization the harvard group reply necis olson mydual uucp transfer stratus com status suggest you move jumper drive rightward one position regards kirt kirtland olson harvard usa olson mydual uucp necis nec com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com com there hardware standard help need implement com and com board that designing and finding dificult track down definition hardware that com and com have the adresses and the fact that com shares irq with com and com shares irq with com except exactly how this irq sharing done not clear especially the existing com does not allow irq sharing does the standard allow for different irq used and how please answer email neil stone thanks advance neil watkinson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	null modem pin serial bruce maynard drac uumeme chi wrote article mal psuvm psu edu mitch lewars mal psuvm psu edu writes can someone give the specs null modem cable ferget which get crossed mal psuvm psu edu that easy one carry all pins straight thru with the exception pins which should crossed someone else already mentioned don carry thru the other pins plan minimal null modem you transfering files betwen pcs this ought work unless you have persnickity comm program plan null modem with modem control dcd dtr dtr dcd some comm software will wait for dcd before transferring anything such software will raise dtr enable the modem accept call with this cable each side dtr will drive the other dcd plan null modem with hardware flow control rts cts cts rts for high speed transfers you want the flow control plan deluxe null modem combine and rts cts cts rts dcd dtr dtr dcd this one ideal leaves out dsr and rarely used anymore you really paranoid you just have wire spend you might add the pin numbers above are obviously for pin connectors don have pin pinout handy wayne hamilton net hamilton osiris cso uiuc edu lowtek box urbana voice bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted slot card with vga hdd contr hello looking for card with the following features controller for ide bus harddiskdrive controller for floppydiskdrives standard vga graphics including feature connector important there are some manufacturors distributors this kind card but have not found them yet you can help please mail ich djukfa ich zam zam kfa juelich thanks lot martin mueller
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how program keyboard itself all have heard that somewhere there exist programmable keyboards one can program displays the keys show some specific characters does mean that there some way transmitting some non trivial data the opposed standard numlock off typeamatic specs from inside the software have not found any corresponding reference the specs for the interface anyone have any ideas except that they may encode data the sequences the standard commands mentioned above which wouldn look too neat besides what would one from great thanks advance andrew
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dcc and minidisc next dat dds like brownvm brown edu wrote far can tell the offshoot technology that already exists drive drives exist already for computers they expensive and bit slow but the disks are cheep disks dan read recent article personal computer world mainly about the new digit audion formats dcc and but the end talked about how nice would use these for data storage with brief calculation how much data you could store the author had been talking someone from sony about these formats and mentioned this get the reply purely audio format wouldn use for data then when pressed for info about the sony man basically admitted that was more than slight adaptabtion what think the original poster was wanting was drives audio player prices assume that the problem here that system can have higher tolerances than system the ear doesn pick the occasional bit error well archiving program david shepherd des inmos tel inmos ltd aztec west almondsbury bristol they didn like the rates they don like the poll tax and they won like the council tax nicholas ridley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem maxtor lxt spins down with reason please help you can with the following strange problem the maxtor drive clone would from time time for obvious reason spin down completely one can tell the sound and simply refuse accessed dos reacts with error drive cannot accessed something the like unfortunately cannot just reproduce the error sometimes occurs more often sometimes less the last time happened was when wanted demonstrate some software colleague would like know anybody has experienced similar problems don like take the thing the dealer only told that there nothing wrong with checked the other post this group about maxtor and don seem the only one who has problems however one describes the same problem and also have different configuration thanx advance for any mailed help peter list equipment computer mandax mainboard adaptec scsi master maxtor lxt scsi hard drive nec cdr rom reader problem remains with rom removed vga card config sys files device dos setver exe device windows himem sys device system aspi dos sys device system aswcdnec sys neccd dos high country dos country sys device dos display sys con ega autoexe bat windows smartdrive sys path windows dos set temp dos mode con codepage prepare dos ega cpi mode con codepage select keyb dos keyboard sys system mscdex neccd peter schneider englisches seminar mail pschneid unizh universitaet zurich phone plattenstrasse fax zurich switzerland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ati gup and vpic could someone tell the ati graphic ultra pro supported version vpic now where located thanks robert email replies would appreciated robert merlicek cbr from hell robert ctpm engage ludicrous speed
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	thanks backing masters just quick thanks the many who explained the backing masters apparently they are not copy protected just used program that unable handle high density old shit was surprised hear that programs high density disks have copy protection which someone back there said huh learn something new every day mitch
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	irq limits help would like advice how configure accept com com currently irq and lpt irq bus mouse irq sound card idea what can set any using irq for bus mouse gobbled too many cycles and caused loss communications with floppy disks and few other problems could suppose switch the com devices externally and disable the second port the super card but really want have them both available could the sound card use irq without horsing the works all replies apppreciated and only just subscribed this newsgroup assume there faq somewhere rather sure someone will tell about thanks mark fraser
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sec transfer slow for eisa with ultrastor recently switched old amiga with computer configuration mhz eisa micronics motherboard asic eisa mhz ram harddisk scsi ultrastor eisa cache controller when use norton harddisk benchmark get harddisk data transfer about sec and sometimes sec that good thought that with eisa could get about sec somewhere the manual for harddisk have read that some host adapters need perform low level format optimize the harddisk performance that system need that guy know gets transfer about sec and has and isa how can isa with the same system faster there anything that can get speedier harddisk thanks phantom diku mail preffered working sign are live tape
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 many recent advertisements have seen both and based systems does the first really exists and does imply that all circuitry the motherboard with works that speed opposite latter where only the internals the cpu are working mhz many thanx advance andrew andrew yes there and version the mhz you are considering buying one the other definitely for the with nice size external cache the performance far greater the only has the internal cache work with mhz while the has potentially much larger cache work mhz with neither systems could actually run program out main memory since dram still too slow for that high bus speed mhz mhz rdd winqwk unregistered evaluation copy kmail net hal ann arbor hal bbs qwk usenet gateway four bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard uupcb kmail call member eff asp asad disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	don understand joohwee students neural iss nus wrote went buying simms recently and the sales person told that the are chip simms and chip simms and one cannot use them interchan you use one you have use all the same type don believe everything you are told can tell you that mixing them between banks and can see why mixing one bank not unless they are different speeds mixing and simms one bank the two only differ the type chips uses assuming that the simms are bit wide here the two equivalent configuration the chip simm uses two bit wide mbit bit nibbles and one bit wide mbit chip for total bit wide mbyte the bit simm uses nine bit wide mbit chips these are equivalent because the way that pinned the simm board the simm interface they both act bit wide mbyte simms sorry too techie for similarly one cannot plug two simms and one simms the system total meg why that system supports meg has simm slots can plug simms give that sounds correct the problem that your computer takes bit wide simms you can not mix different sizes one bank why you ask simple you understand why there banks assuming you have bit cpu the data bus the mechanism retrieve data from memory bits wide the computer expects see bits when asks for data get that bandwidth bit wide the motherboard links one bit not data but parity will ignore that this simple explaination get bits bits that means that simm bank stores only the bit wide data you have bit bus two simms are linked together get bit wide data which the reason why banks are simms wide and bit banks are simms wide your computer required bit wide data with parity bits used some and asts you could upgrade one simm time hope that this message not over your head but the answer your question was not simple could just said because said rdd winqwk unregistered evaluation copy kmail net hal ann arbor hal bbs qwk usenet gateway four bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard uupcb kmail call member eff asp asad disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 the anything more than myth haven heard from any source that trust and sure don see any ads for machines computer shopper intel pretty busy with the pentium right now can seem them introducing their own competition heard the rumor well but the story differed intel was not coming out with the tripling clock clone from ibm was got this rumor from pretty good source has designs computer equipment and hav never been wrong let but there first time for everything can just hear that rumor mill turning now rdd winqwk unregistered evaluation copy kmail net hal ann arbor hal bbs qwk usenet gateway four bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard uupcb kmail call member eff asp asad disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simm speed possible plug simms into motherboard saying wants simms you shouldn have troubles have heard machines having problems with slower than recommended memory speeds but never faster also possible plug simms different speeds into the same motherboard megs and megs something like that sure have simms one bank and simms the other have wouldn recommend mixing speeds within bank just the safe side rdd rdesonia erim org winqwk unregistered evaluation copy kmail net hal ann arbor hal bbs qwk usenet gateway four bis dial ins free usenet mail and newsgroups pcboard uupcb kmail call member eff asp asad disk serving ann arbor since
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa local bus possible plug ordinary isa card into vesa localbus slot running out slots and have one spare localbus slot doug rabson ioc ltd email dfr ioc phone drabson cix compulink fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	compaq and standard simm ram help hello can anyone out there tell possible put ordinary standard simm ram chips compaq prolinea compaq require special compaq ram chips please also email thanks advance jesper jesper honig spring spring diku animals believed god university copenhagen denmark the devil would man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	appletalk hookup what ways are there hook appletalk network use apple laserwriter there way can use appleshare file server also the less memory used the better thanks any help greatly appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cmos memory loss any idea why how the cmos backed dry cell batteries cad cell your batteries may dead mwallack kean ucs mun mwallack kean ucs mun wrote friend computer recently failed recognize its hard drive examination was discovered that the cmos had lost all data other problems were discovered when the cmos was restored everything appeared work before this all happened after long period stable operation the most recent change had been the addition second hard drive slave qemm had been installed along with deskview for quite while any ideas the computer with megs ram ati wonder card and about year and half old
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 anonymous saw posting about the choice between and was wondering although faster because the path external cache shouldn the choice the that one can made work properly with local bus mean cache speed one thing but all your speed will blocked during video just get that faster willing speculate that the with local bus will times fast the and probably expensive cheap regards name meuldijk address gildelaar teteringen holland mail volkert kub oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vga atari monoitor possible connect atari monochrome monitor some kind vga card someone have done this please let know how thanx max brante max tdb institutionen teknisk databehandling uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 robert desonia hal ann arbor robert desonia writes heard the rumor well but the story differed intel was not coming out with the tripling clock clone from ibm was rumour ibm clock tripling chip was seen some trade show last fall comdex something wasn there all you people who are drooling after this chip realize that has fpu just like that evil marketing ploy from intel don you has internal cache which probably where the saved silicon real estate went because some contract ibm not allowed sell its chips third parties these chips are unlikely become available any non ibm machines course nothing prevents other companies from implementing but nobody hasn even come out with real fpu and all clone yet although amd soon will segmented memory helps structure software
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum prodrive drive parameters needed have got quantum prodrive ide harddisk and would like format when trying format low level format just fdisk and dos format somehow messed the parameters had entered fdisk mbr not exactly knowing what this does the suggested drive type formats the drive only tried type but this gives only around and not the nominal could use user type however don know the actual parameters cylinders heads could someone give them and how does fdisk work together with user type please reply email gerthd mvs sas com thank you thomas thomas dachsel internet gerthd mvs sas com fidonet thomas dachsel camel fido subnet dachsel rnivh rni sub org uucp germany now active phone work home fax snail sas institute gmbh box heidelberg tagline one bad sector can ruin whole day
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth windows problems article pifisinnhsr dns nmsu edu jdiers dante nmsu edu diers writes own stealth card from diamond when using the mil win driver the card and driver work but are not very fast all the other windows drivers have number bugs shadows remain when windows are erased and text boxes are often unreadable all attempts get help from diamond have failed have called the tech support and never been able get past the hold line toll call reasonable time min leaving voice mail has not helped either the bbs joke always has too many people download anything you cannot even get file listing considers that download have faxed the tech support group all this with reponse the bottom line you are looking for fast card and want use for windows not get diamond product try another vendor wish had while others here may have had better experiences too share the sentiments posted above though have the original stealth vram only relatively recent that the windows drivers for this card have evolved point decent performance note that there are still couple modes cannot use will not due shadowing mis drawn check boxes etc believe the version have there more recent release appreciate someone would drop note let know haven been able get their bbs lately check again naturally diamond doesn even bother notifying fixes releases diamond was helpful when finally reached the right person curing some windows problems due address conflict the conflicting addresses were omitted least version the diamond vram manual hope has been corrected now the tech rep explained that all based boards use these addresses have not confirmed the validity that statement when upgrade motherboard the near future hopefully with some form local bus seek video solution from someone other than diamond lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that percent sign network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those the author and shall not misconstrued those ibm anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cards card motherboard this may the dumbest question the year but there way piggyback expand slot motherboard all bit get the usual case has slots for and like get scanner but with all other cards already max out hoping that simple solution exists adapter that turns one slot into three don mind turns into bit slots can put card midi card and soundblaster card there other cards are bit ide floppy svga modem there such expander does that screw performance everything else hate buy new motherboard carl christensen dept computer science christen astro ocis temple edu temple university curiouser and curiouser philadelphia usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape drive problems please reply via mail since this job related have colorado jumbo back system one places employment and has eaten two tapes winding the tape off the spool there easy fix the tape drive fried does simply need cleaning any and all comments will appreciated stephen husak what trying what trying say not trying tell you anything you didn know when you woke today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen husak husak cso uiuc edu univerisity illinois
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway too noisy article edu lcai acs edu says just received gateway mini desktop system the first thing noticed when plugged the power cord the noise that comes from the fan fact can hear the noise your gateway equipped with western hard drive then the noise probably coming from there and not from the fan the western drives are notoriously noisy the other hand you don have western drive then maybe the fan there not alot about except insulate around the cpu somehow barry aldridge chicago hour bar standard old disclaimer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sec transfer slow for eisa with ultrastor apr odin diku phantom diku haktan bulut writes recently switched old amiga with computer configuration mhz eisa micronics motherboard asic eisa mhz ram harddisk scsi ultrastor eisa cache controller when use norton harddisk benchmark get harddisk data transfer about sec and sometimes sec that good thought that with eisa could get about sec somewhere the manual for harddisk have read that some host adapters need perform low level format optimize the harddisk performance that system need that guy know gets transfer about sec and has and isa how can isa with the same system faster there anything that can get speedier harddisk dont rely benchmarks they often show incorrect due different tsr programs scsi often needs driver get the speed from the card make sure the card operating synchronus mode which faster you can disable disconnect and get some but just loose the mouse other int when diskaccesing get with and scsi and maxtor lxt coretest get sysinfo jens ejvinson nackstavagen vii internet asyvan solace hsh sundsvall sweden tel act sweden fax nope advanced computer technology bbs not yet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	share your optimization tips article apr cbfsb att com rmm cbnewsg att com richard maniscalco writes article pinnp geraldo utexas edu jbodnar ccwf utexas edu john bodnar writes according unl edu edgar pearlstein here another one computer arrived with the following statement its config sys file stacks changed stacks and saved bytes maybe could lowered even more but haven tried exactly regardless what microsoft says have set stacks every single computer have installed windows from simple with eisa motherboards ndi volante tiga adapters intel ethernet express cards and caching scsi controllers from dpt and dtc not problem yet and the extra gained means lot with conventional memory gobbling programs like orcad and tango pcb john bodnar while liked developing windows the university texas austin applications never inhaled internet jbodnar ccwf utexas edu uucp utexas ccwf jbodnar borland ceo philippe kahn remember reading somewhere qemm manual think that stack needed only for the windows setup program otherwise use stack rich hmmmmmm got comp with windows pre installed and stacks still was needed only for setup wouldn the morons take off also don have the qemm manual verything came with the comp but not the qemm manual could anyone verify this mickey michael panayiotakis louray seas gwu edu ace uunet seas gwu edu louray jack straw from wichita cut his buddy down dug for him shallow grave and lay his body down
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed hello hope somebody out here can help currently working project where trying communicate from ibm with phoenix bios using board that made with intel cpu with uart chip the board works fine with the transmit command and terminal emulation mode kermit but there seems something wrong with the initialization protocol used when try need access the unit built using because have sizable chunk code that will using perform calculations and operations that will very difficult code assembly language for the have included the assembly code that running and the code that trying use anyone can show something that doing blatantly incorrectly that missing because lack knowledge about serial communications please mail wrote the assembly language wait for character received and then check against the character received the leds will indicate this two programs that have written nothing but set com port and send the character one uses the bioscom function bios the other uses the software interrupt int function dos have triple checked the baud rate the parity none the stop bits the character length bits and the interrupt calls for currently loss what may wrong any hardware gurus out there want comment thanks alot hubert jesus dejesus eniac seas upenn edu intel asm command equ command register porta equ port timerlo equ high bits timer timerhi equ low bits timer uartdata equ uart data register uartcmd equ uart command register org sram location mvi set low timer bits sta timerlo mvi set high timer bits sta timerhi mvi start timer enable port sta command mvi display segment leds sta porta mvi clear uart command sta uartcmd sta uartcmd sta uartcmd mvi internally reset uart sta uartcmd lda uartdata remove extraneous data mvi init uart for data bits sta uartcmd parity stop bit async mvi enable transmit and receive sta uartcmd init lda uartcmd read status register ani rxrdy init loop lda uartdata read data character cpi character jnz init loop mvi character received sta porta display segment leds hlt end using bioscom include stdio include stdlib include bios define init define send define receive define status define com void main char abyte abyte bioscom init abyte com printf initialized comm port while bioscom status com abyte bioscom send abyte com printf sent start character using int include stdio include stdlib include dos include bios main union regs registers registers registers registers int registers registers printf com initialized registers registers registers int registers registers printf sent start character
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	and simms they are actually pin they come and with soon you are interested may able help please call after pdt may interested trade nab asan nasa all done with mirrors article ofinne darkstar ucsc edu banshee cats ucsc edu wailer the gates dawn writes edu nshah acs edu writes have gateway local bus system has slots for simms that either have use simms question just received simm and has pins the slot the motherboard has least pins did get the wrong simm can still use simm although not all the pins the slot would flilled have never encountered such long slot for simms before anyone have suggestions can get hold gateway yet thanks please post the net nshah acs edu yes you got the wrong simm you need pin simms meg flavors the wailer the gates dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling froofroo head dod just friend the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	warranty extension credit company applies the phurchase computer article mll cup com staggers cup com ken staggers writes huayong yang yang titan ucs umass edu wrote most not all credit card companies offer double the warranty one year namely you make purchase credit card you get additional warranty one year does apply the purchase computers wonder anyone out there has used there any catch thanks advance just about post the results big computer purchase one the key points was the ability use american express card read the fine print between double warranty policies amex and citibank visa sure both will allow you double warranty computers but citibank has maximum claim could you imagine trying get your monitor mother board fixed for amex has limit claims remember you use amex you must either send copy the warranty info them days from purchase you must call them pre register and then send them the paperwork within days purchase pre register pak arrived today citibank visa requires pre registration ken just talked rep for mastercard regarding this there maximum claim and you only have notify them the warranty when the item needs repair can repaired you get the amount you paid for curiously though the gold mastercard has limit claims definitely not upgrading that card bryan bryan welch amateur radio sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eps technologies experience anyone after rough start purchasing system see earlier post trying again looking the following system offered eps technologies mhz static ram cache ami bios bit vesa local bus slots bit slots bit slot teac floppy drives maxtor hard drive ide cache buffer bit vesa local bus video card ram think orchid fahrenheit card multisync monitor keyboard watt power supply windows mouse dos years limited warranty year site service probably going add the for flat screen digital monitor and will also want for least ram extra has anyone bought from eps technologies particularly system like the one considering especially interested their warrantee and service can anyone recommend other companies who offer similar packages with support and comparable prices see fastmicro just bit thanks advance toby loftus tal brownvm tal brownvm brown edu brown university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for board this for friend mine please send answers directly him mail adress see below highspeed analog digital board hello ladies and gentleman looking for highspeed board with sampling rate above mhz resolution bit the sampling rate can arranged interleave mode where the time equivalent sampling yields times higher sampling rate than the converter uses non interleave mode the board must content converter similar analog devices available faster you board bit slot isa with this specification better please send email hansch cdc ikph uni hannover dbp telefax thanks advance for your help sincerely matthias hansch ikph university hannover germany andreas heinbokel heinboke tnt uni hannover all wisdom print shirts
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	zeos vesa video changes specs most you know have recently changed our standard vesa local bus video card from our own ncr based card the new diamond stealth vlb card for packages and package still has the ncr screamer also have added the upgrade from the stealth ncr the diamond viper our product list below are the comparisons the different cards the configurations will offer ncr stealth vlb viper vlb colors oox colors colors colors video processor ncr weitek power video ram max ram addressable vid processor ram type dram dram vram user ram upgrade sockets sockets yes thru diamond refresh oox refresh refresh oxl refresh pin vesa feature connector yes conflict with port addr com yes drivers for win yes yes yes acad yes yes yes acad yes yes vesa yes yes yes winnt win winmarks viper vlb with video ram also gives oox and color based cards since they are downward compatible will have the conflict with diamond admits conflict will exist with the stealth the prelim viper manual incorrectly lists the port addresses conflict autocad drivers are now currently available for stealth speedstar stealth vlb and viper vlb they can only obtained from diamond tech support and not any bbs supported for standard vga for all cards svga drivers available the near future windows not released yet and drivers are available currently diamond hopes have all current products supported the win release the disks ncr testing coming from tests ran our tech support department was zeos zeos these results are not official diamond results are from their own colors ohz refresh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help looking for books netters often have troubles with and would like fix myself there any book that show you how fix your own hardware monitor printer problems etc course book would tell you the exact problem with your but least will give general idea what might wrong thanks lot for your help
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for books netters looking for books that showing how fix your own hardware problem please let know you have any books mind thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboard and bios article apr news unomaha edu hkok cse kok hon yin writes can someone please tell where can get the best deal for micronics ami motherboard with bus you can reply thru mail this group purchased super voyager vlb mhz board from washburn company month ago don have the mailing address clyde washburn advertises regularly week can also reached via compuserve the phone number think washburn has very competitive prices compared other ami distributers plus liked the fact that knows what talking about concerning hardware and can easily reached via compuserve for non critcle questions and very informative his customers over the phone regards dan moyer dan moyer columbiasc ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed prodesigner iis drivers could anybody please provide copy the windows drivers and grabbers from orchid technologies for use with their prodesigner iis isa video card currently not have access modem dial out orchid bbs you can help please any the following wichever most convenient you copy the binary files directory readable any user any cell the andrew file system upload the binary files anonymous ftp site where allowed uuencode the files and send them electronic mail please notify electronic mail towwang caen engin umich edu thanks advance francisco
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modem for sale selling usr hst baud modem with bis compression upgrades there manual was lost going from one side the the other some point the modem setup for max throughput and has built help but quick reference guide the bottom its use not difficult any means any offers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm value point acifuent acifuent isluga puc wrote will change soon and read something about the ibm value point anyone have one the video card really bit card how much cost and the last question can the value point mhz upgrade mhz thank you veeery much advance alejandro cifuentes acifuent isluga puc these questions can answered any dealer ibm value points but will provide some unsolicited advice the most amusing kind advice today tueday ibm supposed officially announce the introduction the vesa local bus value point systems these systems still have board video and disk which are far better than the prior value point systems and you get vesa local bus for future upgrades are going buy three them with monitors also newly available and one the three will immediately upgraded ultrastor caching scsi disk controller and either the ati gup the viper graphics board not buy sytem personal philosophy upgrade policy that not loss free when you earn money you pay taxes when you spend money you pay taxes they get you coming and going translated this means take infrequent but large steps you are far better off short term and long term you avoid the models and straight the models gordon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netbios and bios hello everyone could anyone tell where find some information about netbios and bios interrupt calls book maybe ftp site thank you advance emilio
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	zeos vesa video changes specs article apr zeos com root zeos com superuser writes ncr stealth vlb viper vlb colors stuff deleted video ram max ram addressable vid processor just note even though the can address megs dram the stealth vlb can only handle meg unless diamond has newer design some special deal with zeos stephen lau elec engineering univ hawaii using friend account while waiting for new grad account death synthesis gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wen monitor help does anybody have any info this monitor the manufacturers all help through mail please scotty
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how much memory for for windows article pjinndua rave larc nasa gov jka air larc nasa gov writes the documentation says that wordperfect for windows requires ram but when try install laptop get not enough memory error message unloaded everything that possibly could but still not enough memory anyone have any ideas why this might happening are you sure you not running windows real mode windows you have permanent swapfile built
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi help howdy sorry this has been covered before one illiterate friends asked help him install drdos his nec powermate course said problem and went work unfortunately the drdos refuses recognize the hard drive during installation even though still able boot off the hard drive using the old dos after openning discovered was using bit seagate scsi controller scsi mbtye drive then booted with drdos off the floppy second time and ran fdisk see could access the drive and behold the primary mbyte partition was intact created dos less didn think you could over mbyte partition the older doses could wrong then tried remove the primary partition which wouldn allow unaware anything special that has done with scsi drive kinda expected work just like ide mfm rll drive for dos installations any suggestions would greatly appreciated except for throw the garbage and buy new thanks advance paul scsi not fincke
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrade thinking splashing out new motherboard for running linux main with small dos partition left for flatmates games current setup amd with itt think and mbytes simms and mbyte ide basically have two choices get get some sort unfortunately live the where computer prices are far too high the first option works out about pounds boards start this price for have couple questions how much improvement speed should notice get copro remember using bit and alot floating point operations how much faster would than the copro should get upgradeable board with and wait for amd pentium price pressure reduce the costs the any experiences will most helpful kenny example prices copro board board kenneth macdonald mail kenny castle dept geology geophysics university edinburgh scotland
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	boot problem with ide controller got multi card ide controller serial parallel interface and two floppy drives and quantum prodrive connected was able format the hard disk but could not boot from can boot from drive which disk drive does not matter but remove the disk from drive and press the reset switch the led drive continues glow and the hard disk not accessed all guess this must problem either the multi card floppy disk drive settings jumper configuration does someone have any hint what could the reason for please reply email gerthd mvs sas com thanks thomas thomas dachsel internet gerthd mvs sas com fidonet thomas dachsel camel fido subnet dachsel rnivh rni sub org uucp germany now active phone work home fax snail sas institute gmbh box heidelberg tagline one bad sector can ruin whole day
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy file copying silly question frequently edit small files and need make copies them several floppy diskettes the same size and format but computer only equipped with one drive and one drive can the copying without swapping files temporarily hard disk which full using standard msdos commands know diskcopy works but for small selections files xcopy txt does not maybe have write own file copy command but the idea does not amuse thanks for your help francisco
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	needed large fast backup utility looking for better method back files currently using maynstream that uses tapes will need have capacity for future backups only dos files would very appreciative information about backup devices manufacturers these products flopticals dat tape anything possible please include price backup speed manufacturer phone and opinions about the quality reliability please mail send summaries those interested thanx advance claus schwinge sunyab student finances and records
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos interlink jka air larc nasa gov keith alston writes does anyone know what type cabling required use the interlink capability provided dos tried null modem cable and had two copies procomm talking happily one another but interlink kept saying connection made gave and used floppies
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes article apr kpc com pcarmack gimp kpc com phil carmack writes there are people who are performance driven enough weren people wouldn buy pentium systems the first place since they could buy that would run their existing applications faster certainly the same league pentium the anything more than myth haven heard from any source that trust and sure don see any ads for machines computer shopper intel pretty busy with the pentium right now can seem them introducing their own competition ibm has displayed technology demo this effectivly means here some neat technology not commitment make such item keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back against the wall leslie fish guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	local dealer service was the infamous gateway video monitor problem info requested article gks psuvm psu edu greg spath gks psuvm psu edu writes article ueom evf odin corp sgi com mikey sgi com mike yang says going mailorder through gateway save plus get technical support over the phone free software package have fun trying get hold technical support over the phone least locally you can walk right the dealer and tell him what wrong and has fix how long does have take fixing does have use new parts when repairs can substitute used parts without your knowledge can charge you for repairs that should under warranty but claims are due improper maintenance your part when comes local dealers have fun getting consistently good support most their techs are treaded salesmen not trained technicians with high turnover rate have fun getting warranty work done quickly and courteously have fun getting out warranty work done cheaply even done period unless you are paid service contract having been both service technician and service manager computerland franchise and another retail computer place know what talking about also know the local service scam that retail computer dealers like push when they selling that same old song that car dealers having been singing for years buy from and you get good service always treat our customers right buy from competition and you sorry you need service experienced mail order buyers know that there are some mail order companies that give excellent service including overnight replacement parts site calls etc there are probably some local dealers that can give you good service too but you think all local dealers give consistenly good service you are wrong have many anectdotes prove point but sure there are others the net can better job than can ted drude tbdrude infonode ingr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway uart chip article spiroc bssw drq netcom com spiro netcom com philip spiro writes george theall theall gdalsrv sas upenn edu wrote article dickyjc bmt netcom com dickyj netcom com dicky johan writes seems that there are using the uart chip the machine that the same the uart chip which has bytes buffer not according the sales critter spoke with last week though gateway does use socketed chips you should able find the afn for about and upgrade the chip yourself minor nuisance for whatever worth salesman said that their would kbps and was soldered the board will someone with recent pls settle this inspection phil phil spiro spiro netcom com mine has sodered right the card why would you need the anyway from what heard when you multitasking its fifo buffer keeps you from loosing data this right bryan luff math comp sci cal
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	genius mouse driver hello fellow netlanders have genius mouse model but driver for button mouse anyone that got one theese could mail driver config sys autoexec bat would very happy staffan ungsgard internet telesoft norden staffan ungsgard nynashamn telesoft utsiktsvagen phone nynashamn sweden fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	application errors win have problem which getting increasing frustrated every day some background about american megatrend bios clone with ram config sys file device dos himem sys dos high umb device windows emm exe noems files buffers stack autoexec bat file using smartdrv exe cmos set running wait state read and write cache ram the problem application error from win started off with newly installed win and then installed excel run excel problem permanent swap file size was place for windows then proceed install norton desktop for windows version problem with the installation also allow ndw alter autoexec bat with the nav running the problem came when try bring excel excel running and right the middle like click selection with the mouse from the desktop first all always get the application error screen followed another application error screen with various different messages the following are some them stack fault drv address xxxx where xxxx some number drv the vga driver provided the manufacture general protection fault ndw exe the same address segment load failure ndw exe same address some how the address flagged was always something what address xxxx means have absolutely idea what this mean tried commented out the tsr programs from autoexec bat help something with the emm setup which not telling win what suppose know looks like the application crossing memory boundary when being loaded while running please reply you have any idea suggestion willing try anything steve chu bell labs holmdel
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	summary information local bus specification article apr inesc jma ingrina writes stuff deleted pci intel bus its not completely defined yet some people think long term solution larger fanout not cheap complex chipset friend who owns company that builds clones shared with the fact that the pci chipset not expensive how about many money hungry clone makers doubt will attempt price the boards high only because new technology lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that percent sign network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those the author and shall not misconstrued those ibm anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article apr kub volkert kub volkert writes anonymous saw posting about the choice between and was wondering although faster because the path external cache shouldn the choice the that one can made work properly with local bus mean cache speed one thing but all your speed will blocked during video just get that faster willing speculate that the with local bus will times fast the and probably expensive cheap technically there reason why chip set cannot support and mhz local bus waiting for the mezzianine bus that will decoupled from the main cpu clock and allow for many more slots due the user buffers this will allow the use ever faster cpus with the same standard cards until the next buss spec regards name meuldijk address gildelaar teteringen holland mail volkert kub oooo oooo guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tangent computer eisa system has anyone here dealt with tangent looking system they have that has eisa backplane with vesa slot for video the scsi contoller they use made aorta never heard this brand can anyone comment tangent the controller thanks david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simm speed article apr news unomaha edu hkok cse kok hon yin writes robert desonia robert desonia hal ann arbor wrote possible plug simms into motherboard saying wants simms you shouldn have troubles have heard machines having problems with slower than recommended memory speeds but never faster should run without any trouble course but why you want buy some and mixed them with more expensive than and furthermore your machine will run the slowest simms clock speed eventhough you have just cents thought your machine will run whatever the bus jumpered cmos set usually wait states regardless what speed ram installed motherboard can sense the speed the ram installed unless you call failing sort auto sense this how you can sometimes use slower ram machine you either set the number wait states accomodate the slow ram which case all memory will run that slower rate you reduce the wait states and take the chance that the slower ram will act like faster ram and you won crash putting faster ram won speed things unless you tell the machine has faster ram mixing fast and slow ram will not help you you have keep the bus slowed down accomodate slow ram jiml mailer address buggy reply jiml strauss ftcollinsco ncr com james lewczyk ncr mpd fort collins jim lewczyk ftcollinsco ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape drive problems article cso uiuc edu husak cso uiuc edu stephen husak writes please reply via mail since this job related have colorado jumbo back system one places employment and has eaten two tapes winding the tape off the spool there easy fix the tape drive fried does simply need cleaning any and all comments will appreciated stephen husak what trying what trying say not trying tell you anything you didn know when you woke today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen husak husak cso uiuc edu univerisity illinois does all tapes were the two tapes that unwound the same type from the same batch the reason ask that bought some generic tapes that did this and found that the tape markers were not fully punched out and had closed the little marker hole was only few tapes set did you open the tape cartridge and put the tape back the reels you have not yet open removing the two screws the bottom the tape cartridge and snap the plastic shell away from the metal base you are pulling the tape through the assembly try not touch any more than you have you are doing look for couple little holes the tape these are the marker holes which let the tape drive know when the end the tape the holes are spaced couple inches apart best guess that the drive finds the first marker and then stops the second marker anyhow the tape has the holes then check see the mirror the tape clean the function the mirror detect the marker holes the tape drive shines light the mirror and has pickup the area where the reflection would come out when the hole goes the pickup detects the light that was allowed pass and knows when stop the mirror dirty out alighment unlikely since made into the case you might have problem detecting the end the tape the tape drive does all tapes and the tapes all look good then either the pickup the led the sensor system has failed dirty you open the drive door you will see the sensor assembly the left the head assembly looks clean and nothing its way then the drive may need serviced possible that the led burned out the sensor out still warranty you might able send back cms for repair scott hiles whiles relay nswc navy mil standard disclaimer the opinions expressed are those own and not necessarily reflect those the dod the navy accept full responsibility
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what rapid tech squeeze card going through box old ibm card and came across one called rapid technology squeeze card dated and has mhz crystal and big chip that has cube connectors the outside but ribbon type pin connector the board bit board any ideas what phil phil hunt wherever you there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek com uucp decvax harvard howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article iisakkil apr hut iisakkil hut mika iisakkila wrote because some contract ibm not allowed sell its chips third parties these chips are unlikely become available any non ibm machines saw this months world for computers using ibm slc don think ibm restricted selling their chips least not anymore clock tripled even without coprocessor would great especially with board cache make pin compatible and you have the chip upgrade that dreams are made taka mizutani takaharu mail sas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with maxtor ide drive first all thanks those you who responded both here and via mail the tips didn pan out but was good hearing from you now following earlier post disk controller acculogic side hard floppy ide controller jumpers all defaulted shown normal irq delayed irq primary secondary floppy address single dual speed floppy primary secondary ide address precomp iochrdy not driven ide drive controls iochrdy other cards didn check brand serial parallel adapter logitech bus mouse adapter roland mpu compatible midi interface configured with default irq mem address opened the box and removed all the other cards above help there then not having anything better try changed normal irq delayed irq the disk controller didn make any difference and iochrdy not driven ide drive controls iochrdy also had effect put everything back the way was and installed the cards then unplugged the floppy drive cable from the disk controller voila the booted from power although seemed take several seconds before the first access the hard disk plug the floppy cable back the controller and the original non boot behavior returns with this additional information does anyone netland have any words wisdom for what going and how should deal with larry still plugging away byler
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos board with ports posting this for friend that runs bbs not sure its under dos windows interested board that has ports another post someone suggeted digiboard but didn have too much info could someone give information any boards that they know with the before mentioned configuration models specifications prices manufacturers thanks rob robert walker walker umn edu computer science dept university minnesota
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa limit marka ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes the latest magazine pentium isssue there editorial the advantages using eise vesa rather than just plain isa vesa supposedly users will eventually want more than ram however since the isa bus has only bits then anything the bus can access only even have the motherboard far agree with the arguments then the writer claims that glitches can occur systems with over because that limit that part don understand because the ram right the motherboard the cpu should have problems talking with the ram can anybody explain this the problem with isa bus masters which can only address the first mbs system memory bus masters not use the cpu nor the system dma the actual data transfer but transfer their data directly the system ram roger pao gordius bagdad pride mts rpao rpao mts mivj
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hard disk question just disassembled old and get disk drives hard drive and floppy drive questions are can use these drives drives this currently has hard drive floppy drives can what need please send your advice comments aovai qube ocunix thanks lot via dlg pro
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 following own note ted richards ted isgtec com wrote devilbiss col com wrote looks like everything works advertised but disappointed with the speed using intel internal modem the with telebit the unix end which are currently limited kbits the unix com link get quantitative comparison did cat file where file kbyte uncompressed ascii text and took seconds scroll through window over the modem link chars sec using the identical hardware and procomm the same cat file takes seconds chars sec btw use ncd xview work every day for the same unix access from over lan and like that just fine the same cat file scrolls seconds the lan connection just tried few experiments cat byte file lines under various scenarios xview for dos full screen window sec telix dos window sec telix dos full screen window standard vga sec telix dos windows window sec win seamless window gave after min win windows faster but gave after min win seamless window using sec could have been little faster had keep hitting the space bar was using ati wonder video card the way xview for dos looks pretty good and the line line scrolling desktop looks pathetic although full page redraws are pretty good tried under xview using normal bold font and with very small font and there was difference the times the modem receive light was pretty solidly looks like the bottleneck was the baud modem not the screen drawing ted richards ted isgtec com uunet isgtec ted isg technologies inc airport mississauga ont canada
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ram boards hello have isa machine with pheonix bios currently have megabytes ram installed via eight simms the motherboard both banks are full and there space for more simms thinking running machine and possibly linux with windows and know that more ram would helpful however with simms the only solution can see sell megs for about and simms for about used apart from the fact that can afford the price right now the entire process selling ram and buying used probably means that the machine might down for number days which would rather avoid question the ram boards that plug into free slot work well with isa machine have seen some being sold used for about with with space for another these boards work how they device driver needed will the bios pickup the extra ram does with the simms the mother board know that the isa expansions slots are bits and simm memory bits probably all this just wishful thinking however any help truly appreciated eric ebosco oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help hard drive messed dave david cat uucp wrote vazzag vccnw its rpi edu gregory anthony vazzana writes howdy the other day was using norton speeddisk optimize seagate problem persisted backed all essential data and decided reformat hard drive when attempted this got the clylinder head and gave error message saying that could not find the sector have tried everything can think now can even access hard driv write information tried boot with dos disks but tries reformat hard drive and gets the way through say error formatting hard drive press exit tried scan hard drive for viruses but can access and get message when try dir saying error int can anyone help have idea what thanks advance for any help greg try bios level format via the debug command xxxx where xxxx the hex address the controller bios location this will not work last resort would take large magnet the hard disk but this has done properly you will cause could cause more damage than has been done already disclaimer not responsible for your actions directly applying large magnet your hard disk done correctly the magnet trick will wipe out everything the hard disk completely and low level bios format might succeed david china cat bbs cat david sed csc com uunet mimsy anagld cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	laserjet upgrades dpi opinions what are the current products available upgrade the resolution which ones support postscript any experiences with them either good bad the quality difference really noticable planning producing camera ready copy homes will the higher resolution noticed for these
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	why vesa local bus article apr umontreal gregof jsp umontreal grego filippo writes fellow netters have question for you gonna buy mhz with vesa local bus the speed benefit that great would wise spend local bus system controller and graphic card for normal use mean won use for server also read article from someone sorry can remember your name and said that even though you have local bus hard disk controller your performances won that much greater because the disk throughtput what the use having fast bus the peripherals can cope with something bear mind what the vlb stands for for video the origional intention the bus was speed the bus that large memory memory transfers would faster this espically useful transfering data from main memory video memory since there are usually vlb slots card makers have been making cards fit the other two how about vlb ethernet card move the data into the card odd and then wait for tickle onto the net just over however free the local bus for other cards some times you need fast busses and sometimes you don thank you gregof jsp umontreal guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	another happy gateway owner article apr infonode ingr com kbputt infonode ingr com ken putt writes don they always course they much more expensive than most other quality competitors like who rinstance when bought system november first second third tier vendor could touch the price for the hardware software combination got from another good thing have read the midst all the gateway horror stories you were selling many systems fast you end with four five pissed off customers too and four five ecstatic ones and lots satisfied ones they have excellent return policy don minimize this you buy mail order good thing know that you get replacements parts questions asked day two via fedex they very impressive systems when they work which they the vast majority cases remember that only the people the tails the curve who are motivated write the ones who love and the ones who hate you don hear from the folks the middle very often they have rough edges doubt about but they give good value per dollar and use almost all top quality components
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos article eastman uucp lrxi icts kodak com james nonnemacher writes there enough experience out netland with dos that anyone could make some comments whether not worthwhile upgrade any problems with hardware compatibility any bugs been found one thing wonder about the disk doubler included with dos there any possiblity that the disk double exe file gets corrupted your disk would unreadable how would one recover from such event the file that would problem dblspace bin not exe arf ooo ooo bill burge burge qdeck com and his dog spot problem resolution prevention bbs quarterdeck office systems fax qfax tech support support qdeck com this automated request gen info info qdeck com fax system call from the compuserve quarterdeck handset your fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes this doesn answer the original question multi user and mention was made ether card either but from disk data point view why does scsi have advantage when comes multi tasking data data and could anywhere the drive can scsi find faster can get off the drive and into the computer faster does have better cache system thought scsi was good managing data bus when multiple devices are attached are only talking about single drive explain why scsi inherently faster managing data from hard drive you are making the same mistake did you are confusing the drive interface the data throughput interface again from mac ibm info sheet available ftp sumex aim stanford edu the info mac report mac ibm compare txt expansion both mac ibm scsi only external device expansion interface common both mac and ibm allows the use any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and rom apple developed some specifications for scsi controlers while ibm has exact controller specifications which results added incompatibilities ibm machines main problem there are lot external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port scsi chain supposed terminated only the begining and the end any other set causes problems for either mac ibm scsi devices per scsi controller bit asynchronous ave and synchronous max transfer base bit scsi requires scsi controler chip and can provide only fast scsi not wide scsi which are both bit interfaces see scsi scsi devices per scsi controller scsi mode scsi fully scsi complient and tends implimented very fast scsi since needs different controller interface both hardware which tends very expendsive and software transfer speeds are with burst bit with burst bit and with burst bit wide and fast scsi scsi mode limited devices and reduced bit bit fast only throughput due the difference between scsi and wide scsi ports ibm interfaces limited hard drives design lack development ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer max its lowest setting scsi interface asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum ide asynchronous mode full scsi mode blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep with those through put rates and that where the bottleneck and cost scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims use the scsi through put the cost scsi interface self fulliling prophisy few people buy scsi because expencive for the which turn convices makes that mass producing scsi which would reduce its cost unwarented and scsi expencive that the effect the rule scale the more items sold the less each item has bare the brunt the cost manufacture and the less each item has cost scsi allows drive mechanisims through put limited the drive while ide itself limits the through put
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	memory slot problem article qiijs bigboote wpi edu ralf wpi wpi edu ralph valentino writes finally decided upgrade eisa memory from meg meg two months after the parts warranty ran out the anigma motherboard two months too late seems there problem with one both the two bit sim slots bank boot get pattern test failure address and the system deconfigures the top meg the sims are good tried rotating all them into bank one the configurations however the pattern test deletions failed all tests the pattern that appeared was the same the pattern sim was place this leads believe the one two the connector address pins are fault and with lot luck might patchable ralph ralph valentino ralf chpc org ralf wpi wpi edu hardware engineer worcester polytechnic institute center for high performance computing marlborough many motherboards have jumpers enable disable the memory banks did you check that out allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help with purchasing the last time was microprocessor lab was using don know lot buzz terms hardware now need purchase help ask the right questions motherboard need with ram with additonal slot for more would like get two vesa local bus one for video not sure what going with the other must able run unix what are other questions that should ask ensure getting quality stuff what are other important features monitor want non interlaced svga but not sure about what brand get can afford nec sony what brands should consider acer touch what else should ask video card would like run framemaker need fast video card western digital worth the over cirrus logic need more than ram one company wanted more for local bus video card this normal hard drive segate western digital conner all have the same price which one more liable which one has better performace case power supply given the choise desktop and minitower which one better what the adequate power supply cooling general problem non issue what features should ask for did miss anything sure that there are lot semi literates reading this group your help greatly appreciated jason chen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	why vesa local bus guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes how about vlb ethernet card move the data into the card odd and then wait for tickle onto the net just over how about for bit vlb for quickring apple implimentation vlb byte quickring interesting that allows interleaving with other card that the can divided among many cards the same time nubus and mca are about the only card interfaces able anything with that kind speed and even nubus ditzes around with burst mode mca also called micro channel ibm and bit bus allows use more than one cpu computer dct and anything can talk anything fast the two components involved can handle never took off because was incompatible with isa and eisa planned bus interface ibm powerpc carl jabido ida can handle vlb speed never mind quickrings speed out eisa pokes along nubus mac speeds burst mode vlb and quickring are slowed down pci competing interface that still development
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa eisa article apr envmsa eas asu edu firman envmsa eas asu edu writes article casey apr grace wharton upenn edu casey grace wharton upenn edu shawn casey writes hello have question for anyone that may familiar with isa and eisa sytem configurations after switch the isa boards into the eisa board all the cards are isa the system seems work with problem what ever but some the interupt problems that had with the isa board continue with the eisa board understanding that the eisa board should able handle irq conficts when running windows problem when running our network via telnet tcp with windows running the system kicks out windows irq confict within windows assume also are there any memory address problems that will happen when the boards are switched base memory that far know you are using eisa mother board you have use also eisa cards else your computer system will slower than when you using isa board with isa cards bill that nonsense you can use isa cards eisa system without problem and the same speed isa system luke
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	original ibm specs article apr ucbeh san edu hoffmamc ucbeh san edu writes hard drive with type controller can added but recommend not trying full height hard drive have run into trouble with the supply not having the oomph spool those big heavy platters one way get the system going with one floppy drive and one hard disk watt power supply first disconnect the power from the floppy drive than turn the you will notice the hard drive having real difficult time getting speed but manages when booting finished plug your floppy drive now will work know this not very user friendly maybe you are better off buying with watt power supply something like that willem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	controller question article apr nwnexus com paulf halcyon com marlboro man writes looking for way access the floppy drive the level that lower than the bios given the port assignments what controller chip spec sheet need info floppy and would also like able write code that works disks well also with the method access possible actually read the individual bytes the track they stream into the controller afraid the sector handling done purely through hardware the off chance can get this basic the access anything point the right direction would help lot there file out there look for with archie that called theref zip which has lots info various things amongst which also detailed description all floppy controller commands think hard drive controller commands are not there possible read entire track including all gaps sector headers etc setting sector size something very large like willem
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adding hard drive original ibm article dxbs panix com schuster panix com michael schuster writes article lsj ruinnl saltillo utexas edu goolsbey utexas edu keith goolsbey writes have original ibm not that has never had hard drive questions need new bios add hard drive does anyone sell complete package this please mail with suggestions only need add about meg meg hard drive sent mail too you need the bios which has support for rom bios extensions such the rom hard disk controller hard card available for not much over will the trick you have the proper bios date use norton similar program find out you also need set the correct switch settings your controller which can pain since most don come with proper docs for all hardware contained inside
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital info needed was recently loaned older dec work and have the option adding additional western digital hard drive the machine the existing drive currently western digital well and working fine but not have any documentation available for configuring the master slave relationship necessary for drive setup the first drive currently formatted tandy dos but eventually going upgrade both dos the drives themselves are both model number circa they are cyl head drives note add that there exact configuration for these current bios but seems work setting cyl head write pre landing zone there are three pairs jumper pins the back that presume are for setting the master slave originally the drive the machine had none currently was suggested try the far right looking the back for master and the middle jumper for the slave when booted the reinitialize seems puke accessing the drive does flicker about three times the second drive but then gives the error hopefully the problem simple the drive not being formatted but not being person who has ever had actual format and unformatted drive would not even know how that any and all help this great fully appreciated not number for western digital might just good swood hunting over michigan don despair closed season opossum porcupine weasel red squirrel skunk starlings feral pigeons english sparrows ground squirrel woodchuck anyway trout season opens the last saturday this month
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article bcinnmep golem wcc govt hamilton golem wcc govt michael hamilton writes you really need switch instead understand can have local bus devices the mother board but not local bus slots and according what been told many systems beyond the vesa local bus standard order provide systems with local bus slot capability have definitly seen mother board with local bus slots which claimed able support any cpu including the and can someone throw some more informed light this issue you will need check with peripheral makers see their boards will work mhz some will with some motherboards tony catone compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need intelligent serial bill writes buy the serial port and modem each can used for other things you can use the modem with your next computer might not upgrade the modem without changing the box hear that isdn big europe you might able get one those beautiful isdn modems for less than the pice car someday bidirectional bill davidsen corp center box schenectady unfortunately the curent united states standard isdn kbit but suppose whats kbit kup from aka christopher kuperman the holistic systems consultant email zork yoyo monash edu giv man fish eat for day teach him how fish eat for ever
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what the difference between pin and pin simms can anyone tell the difference between pin and pin simms wish get detailed information about the origin these two different types simms preferably magazine review aricle the way there faq for this group which covers the simms information please also direct any help information would very much appreciated sincerely jen dept univ maryland yjwu eng umd
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sun rom pcs article apr novell pbartok novell peter bartok writes great but don let your effort and talent noticed put the program the net upload some anonymous ftp sites people least can have and appreciate please put into ftp novell pub incoming the small programme that can used switch suncd drive into bytes block mode for use with msdos adaptec apsi now available ftp from ftp novell pub adaptec cdblksize zip juergen keil tools uunet mcsun unido tools
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sorry another gateway posting never thought contribute gateway thread either pro con but spleen could use little venting the scenario ordered ultrastor local bus controller receive system days after ordering happy discover ultrastor isa controller inside unhappy call gateway receive the correct controller days getting happier new controller doesn work unhappy again call gateway again get another controller more days cooling off the end sight this controller doesn work either motherboard bad very unhappy gateway solution they will order new motherboard more days and have site service install for but have take day off work because the service people only work say way already blown about hours with this about them hold and don have the time take day off work also day return period almost over and only been able use the thin for about minutes the whole thing going back was extremely upset when began this post because the support rep told that would have pay shipping not only for the returned system but also the two hard drive controllers they had sent fortunately just spoke customer service and they are going have ups come and pick everything gratis the only downside that now have order another computer would really like try gateway again just very turned off the prospect having try and get through customer service tech support again think their products are great for the most part but beginning wonder the savings are worth the potential aggravation are other mail order companies difficult contact know gateway booming and for good reason but don know can take again well feel better now mark devaney hear now and believe later georgia institute technology atlanta georgia internet markd gatech edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adaptec problem hello have recently suffered from various problems concerning adaptec controller problem floppy disk drive doesn work there apparently least two jumpers the controller that affect the floppy disk drive unfortunately have located only one them the lower front corner would like know there are any other such jumpers and possibly where they are located problem hard disks refuse boot with two scsi rodime miniscribe get message missing operating system even though the disks have been formatted with the same controller and they damn sure have operating system them boot from quantum might get far getting the dos version information this might course due incombatible memory drivers are there any jumpers that could affect the causing such errors thanks advance jouni jouni marttila kyl turku finland jmarttila abo jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape backup question hello folks have archive internal qic tape drive which pretty comparable the colorado jumbo since have two floppy drives system using small card not accelerated made archive attach tape drive third floppy device the problem although the dos based qicstream software works just fine both the norton and central point backup programs for windows fail unless switch the machine non turbo speed using eisa since the dos software works can hardware problem can has anyone seen similar problems any solutions thanks advance jerry shekhel molecular simulations inc time just fades the pages drummers burlington usa book memories rhythm jerry msi com guns roses
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new rom for gateways and misc info terry clark tclark news weeg uiowa edu wrote the upgrade nanao now this monitor will handle vertical refresh not according nanao the will not better than btw gateway told the same thing phil phil spiro spiro netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	recommendations for local bus cached ide controller would like hear the net wisdom and net opinions ide controllers would liek get ide controller card for vlb motherboard what are good options for this preferably under must also work under and compatible with stacker and other disk compression please advise divya divya live long and then die slow and horrible death what confucius wanted say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape backup for windows looking for complete solution need isa vlb scsi controller ultrastor plus tape drive less like archive plus windows program that will work these intended system will have ram plain isa controllers will longer but also hear that the scsi world not very organized does anybody have tape backup setup like what looking for please describe thanks mail please marka gcx ssd csd harris com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	refresh rates nec fgx can someone tell the maximum horizontal and vertical refresh rates the nec fgx not the fge thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ftp problem gateway have gateway with smc elite series ethercard plus when use ncsa ftp send from the gateway with hash turned see hash marks immediately then the computer drags turn off the internal cache the the speed better but doesn match the speed when receive the gateway doesn matter send from the gateway get hash marks and then extreme slowness the cache not disabled does anyone know any more about this there fix the gateway was purchased june please respond directly you wouldn believe how slow the news this system thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings article qjv bogus sura net vargish bogus sura net nicholas vargish writes soundblater card supposed share irq with lpt parallel printer interface and general this scheme works well however sometimes there are conflicts seemed depend the software more than anything else origin games are especially bitchy about having the whole interrupt themselves solution was switch the interrupt irq which unreserved contemporary computers using irq for the drives went out with the architechture don put the irq you have get new computer instead this irq has been completely stable for and use play mods and wavs under linux free for better architecture machines with problems well games under dos also use irq but there one disadvantage some games assume that the board using irq and have way adjust this setting had trouble with some the lucas films games peter geltner administrative dean computing santa monica college santa monica california
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	references needed memory management doing report the topic advanced memory management and need know some good references cover this topic analytical chemistry class instrumental analysis you could guess doesn have extremely thorough extensive covering the topic also chemical engineer and know some but not too much about memory management anyone could help point good direction would very thankful thanks advance joe bleazard hydra gatech edu school chemical engineering georgia institute technology atlanta
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article isgtec isgtec com ted isgtec com ted richards writes devilbiss col com wrote just brought ncd xview windows version use over modem link unix system installation easy but you need program also from ncd called xremote run the unix host total software cost for one seat was anyone here know ncd doing educational pricing these software packages for those strapped for cash thanks eugene ted richards ted isgtec com uunet isgtec ted isg technologies inc airport mississauga ont canada eugene hsu aka heuge the university southern california eugenehs scf usc edu electrical and biomedical engineering freaking yeah yeah who santa next victim kroq the new detective goes undercover
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	another happy gateway owner pastor vfl paramax com jon pastor writes which they the vast majority cases remember that only the people the tails the curve who are motivated write the ones who love and the ones who hate you don hear from the folks the middle very often they have rough edges doubt about but they give good value per dollar and use almost all top quality components one those middle the road owners who satisfied with system had share problems corrections phone conversations etc satisfied what got for money stephen husak what trying what trying say not trying tell you anything you didn know when you woke today depeche mode nothing music for the masses stephen husak husak cso uiuc edu univerisity illinois
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted chipset info have with motherboard the last byte memory manager which downloaded for trial reports the chipset addtech pcchip chipset and able activate the ram behind segments ffff which can then used for umbs except for video bios would like write own driver activate the memory does anyone know where can get programming information this chip phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted opinions mag and nanao monitor looking buy monitor soon and seems that can decide what monitor should buy have mag this dpi version and using triniton tube and nanao mind does anyone know any specification problems these monitor have actually any related opinions buying monitor will welcomed thanks advance ong mang iastate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitor for xga ifpg news claremont edu dhosek jarthur claremont edu hosek writes what the recommended monitor for xga can just use any old svga monitor something more needed mostly curious before blowing monster wad cash new system xga xga for the original xga you just need something that can interlaced just tell them compatible and they should get the idea for the xga get what you like prefer multi syncs like the ibm the necs even fixed frequency monitor like home viewsonic like the multisyncs because easy run them modes like colors noninterlaced higher modes like dick kaul opinions only not official ibm positions etc ibm xga development they make wear suit were speak for ibm boca raton shhhh the maestro decomposing kaul vnet ibm com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 article bcinnmep golem wcc govt hamilton golem wcc govt michael hamilton writes have definitly seen mother board with local bus slots which claimed able support any cpu including the and can someone throw some more informed light this issue michael hamilton some motherboards support bus and cpu there option bios think where additional wait can added with regard cpu bus transactions this slows the cpu down rate that gives the bus device time their thing these particular wait are applied when the cpu transacts with bus device you want enable these wait only you are using with bus devices this from reading motherboard manual and these are interpre tations your mileage may vary strictly speaking and mhz are not compatable and there least one fudge mechanism physically allow work gary korenek korenek ferranti com network management technology incorporated formerly ferranti international controls corp sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cfv and vote ack comp programmer porting setup multimedia bugs attention voters had problem with mailbox the first day voting please check the vote acknowlegement ack the end this cfv your name address not there please send your vote again actually check even you voted after the first day introduction this the third and final call for votes cfv for the creation four newsgroups and the renaming one create comp programmer porting unmoderated renaming comp programmer comp programmer misc unmoderated comp setup unmoderated comp multimedia unmoderated comp bugs unmoderated this the second attempt creating comp programmer porting and comp setup and renaming comp programmer comp programmer misc the first attempt failed the summer the voting deadline was august the voting rules state that another attempt for creating newsgroups can started after six month waiting period this case march this the first attempt creating comp multimedia and comp bugs this document contains the background showing the need for these proposals the proposed charters for these proposals voting instructions voting ballot some example ballots the voting rules the voting schedule the mass acknowledgement background the creation two free bit compilers for gcc and emx gcc read comp programmer for details has spurred continuing deluge software ported from unix platforms such emacs less awk grep sed xscheme ispell flex yacc and much more borland has released its compiler for allowing for easier porting dos and windows software much the hardware and drivers were written for dos and later windows more people are discovering the number people asking questions about compatibility with their hardware increases does the questions the availability drivers for their hardware installation procedures etc multimedia becoming popular supports windows multimedia extensions using win furthermore ibm including direct multimedia support starting with version addition using win any non trivial software will have bugs not exempt especially since ibm constantly adding new features far ibm has issued system patches and corrective service disks the service pak for free free from bbss and ftp sites for free plus small media charge for diskettes read comp misc for details proposed charters create comp programmer porting unmoderated will provide forum for developers ported software coordinate efforts avoid duplication effort and spur additional development the group will also cover topics such porting from other platforms such dos windows unix etc toolkits which aid program portability including porting tools such mirrors and forth rename comp programmer misc unmoderated keep the structure the newsgroup heirarchy orthogonal comp programmer should renamed comp programmer misc comp programmer misc will still the newsgroup for programmers discuss programming issues and technical aspects unmoderated setting create comp setup unmoderated will devoted system setup topics including the availability device drivers compatibility information installation procedures system requirements and overall performance optimization create comp multimedia unmoderated will provide forum for discussion multi media issues create comp bugs unmoderated will provide forum for system bug reports bug diagnosis and work arounds the availability system patches and corrective service disks and forth note that discussion bugs applications belong other newsgroups and discussion bugs betas belong comp beta how vote cast your vote fill out the ballot below and mail many newsreaders will allow mail sent replying this post sure send only the ballot and edit out the rest this post type your vote for each proposal you favor the charter proposed put yes after its name you oppose the charter proposed put after its name abstain leave blank after its name type your last name your family name comma and your first name your personal name cut out the ballot please not delete any lines the ballot mail your ballot mlevis lonestar utsa edu before central time april ballot cut here cut here cut here comp programmer porting comp programmer misc comp setup comp multimedia comp bugs voter last first name mail ballot mlevis lonestar utsa edu april cut here cut here cut here example ballot comp programmer porting yes comp programmer misc yes comp setup comp multimedia comp bugs voter last first name smith john this example john smith favors comp programmer porting created and comp programmer renamed comp programmer misc also opposes the creation comp setup and comp bugs does not have view the creation comp multimedia example ballot comp programmer porting yes comp programmer misc yes comp setup yes comp multimedia yes comp bugs yes voter last first name doe jane this example jane doe favors the creation rename all the proposals voting rules one vote per person you vote more than once only the most recent vote will counted votes must mailed the person voting proxy voting forwarding posting votes newsgroup etc will not counted not ask how the votes are going the status the votings will revealed only after the poll closes will acknowledge votes mass acknowledgement ack will post the ack twice see schedule below you need help for using your editor using mail how voting works general etc then ask expert your site also see the how create new newsgroup article which posted news answers regular basis you need any clarifications voting procedures for this cfv send mail mlevis ringer utsa edu when the voting period over see schedule below proposal passes both the following formulas are true the number yes votes exceeds the number votes least yes yes the number yes votes exceeds least twice the number votes yes yes other words proposal passes yes max where max returns the highest number given schedule the voting period started march when the first cfv was posted david lawrence the news announce newgroups moderator this third cfv repeat the first cfv but also has the mass acknowledgement ack names and mail addresses those who have already voted send your vote not there you have not voted yet vote now the voting period will end central time april votes received after that time will not count the voting results and tally will posted shortly after that date mass acknowledgement here the list people who have already sent their ballots central time april bdubbs tamu edu aiyagari sanjay ska crux cit cornell edu alcorn justin alcorn alpha ces cwru edu arien peter laaaa blekul bitnet frmop cnusc asselin andre assela rpi edu aurand tom tom longs lance colostate edu baechler cedric cbaechle iiic ethz bartlett warren bart pdn paradyne com bates john johnb edu beadles jeff neon rain com beal kenneth kbeal amber ssd csd harris com bedersdorfer jochen beders dfki uni bell douglas dab scl cwru edu benningfield robert concert net aurs aurw benningf biegel bryan biegel tigris stanford edu blackman ebb venus tamu edu bodnar john jbodnar ccwf utexas edu boisvert wesley wesb dermit isis 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sstrazdu sedona intel com streeter carl cstreete nyx edu sum eva eesum mik uky edu sum joey jpsum mik uky edu suttor jeff jsuttor netcom com swallow doug doug montage oau org sward david sward cmu edu thomas stephen swt therson affinity org thompson michael tommy msc cornell edu tiffany bernard lbt umich edu torremans engelbert etorrem hvlpa att att com tremain jim jim biology watstar uwaterloo tsen maoee tsen student umn edu van der lek petja vanderlek research ptt van iwaarden ronald rvaniwaa copper denver colorado edu van woerkom marc marc van woerkom maus veeraraghavan venkatesh venky owlnet rice edu veldhuyzen eric hhs vigor kevin kevin wicat com villumsen ole ovillumsen daimi aau wald david wald theory lcs mit edu wallace jack grey vnet ibm com wantosch rainer rainer sasowa han watson brett watson elec weber fahr christoph weber rhrk uni weeks larry dev ecn purdue edu werner john werner soe berkeley edu west mike west esd nec com weyrich orville uunet net weyrich orville white andrew apwhite csugrad edu wiersema brian brianw umd umd edu wimmer carsten carsten wimmer train fido wittenauer allen allen wittenauer crispy carb woodbury gregory ggw wolves durham worthington stephen stephen actrix gen wright gregory gregory bcstec boeing com wyble richard transfer stratus com schunix rwyble young david dyoung netcom com zabbal christian kris binkley mcgill zawodny jeremy jzawodn andy bgsu edu zou nan nan matt ksu ksu edu mike levis unofficial spokesmodel mlevis lonestar utsa edu votes mlevis ringer utsa edu clarifications
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ncr external floppy drive just inherited ncr external floppy this thing has every port known man the back the question does anyone know how connect this thing what hardware needed software tia alex please respond directly not this alias
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with fixed frequency khz vga monitor recently bought monichrome vga monitor for that will non interlaced which seems like good deal however fixed scan rate monitor and only handles khz horizontal think with trident card works only graphics modes and not much use since just about any application will set the mode something else especially wants text suppose anyway there any way that can use this general purpose vga display with meg trident card not can with some sort different vga card peter desnoyers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	request info mystery card while rummaging through box old parts found half size board that looks like comm port board was made forte data systems and has copyright date the board provides male pin connector and has jumpers pins each two labelled plugged into and ran advanced diagnostics several times changing the jumper positions each time but the system did not recognise comm port does anyone have clue what this board might how configure could use another comm port free bryan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	joystick suggestions planning buying joystick first time since sold amiga five years ago for have idea what kind stick should buy many people have recommended variety gravis models are they any good the best willy ville walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info wanted tseng labs vlb fellow netters does anybody have any info tseng labs vlb card price speed compatibility with existing and comming softwares performance compared others cards based card thank you
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point view why does scsi have advantage when comes multi tasking data data and could anywhere the drive can scsi find faster can get off the drive and into the computer faster does have better cache system thought scsi was good managing data bus when multiple devices are attached are only talking about single drive explain why scsi inherently faster managing data from hard drive ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer max why don you start with the spec sheet the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you blue the face but they exceed the isa bus capability then what the point who says ide limited megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform its lowest setting scsi interface asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum ide asynchronous mode full scsi mode blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can implimented what system the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep with those through put rates and that where the bottleneck and cost scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims use the scsi through put given the original question scsi used only single hard drive controller then necessary get scsi drive that will least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice make any sence what does meg megs sec scsi drive cost the cost scsi interface self fulliling prophisy few people buy scsi because expencive for the which turn convices makes that mass producing scsi which would reduce its cost unwarented and scsi expencive that the effect the rule scale the more items sold the less each item has bare the brunt the cost manufacture and the less each item has cost the original cga cart back was think the original ega card pga was scsi has stood relatively alone not coming down price mainly because talking about and not sun sparc sgi name your favorite unix workstation that after millions buying decisions over the years scsi has had plenty time come down price won argue that the scsi standard makes for good well implimented data highway but still want know why intrinsically better than ide isa bus when comes multi tasking when managing data from single scsi hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ethernet dear all trying get standard connection going with gri and gvc nic ethernet card know that router and modem working because able ping finger and even telnetd with however after time crashes randomly help would greatly appreciated suspect that there hardware conflict the running with ram the ethernet card configured for irq ports thanks advance know that not much but don even know what the questions ask are sorry please send mail elliott
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck anybody seen the date get stuck running dos with menu system alive all the time the machine left running all the time suddenly the date longer rolls over the time reasonably accurate allways but have change the date hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system get dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should even clue whether the hardware battery cmos dos broken kevin gorman kevin kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp nrc com voice vital computer systems beachcomber oxnard non disclaimer boss and stands behind everything say
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	colors orchid pipe dream have orchid fahrenheit vlb with dram based card had problem for while after installing second meg dram for the video and thanks orchid got fix from their tech support was jumper settings not given the ordinary manual assume would come with memory ordered from them guess should glad they didn just say buy the memory from something like that the one thing that was puzzled was why there was not color mode the thing either full screen enlarged desktop mode ati ultra plus can handle that given memory all the buys you the fahrenheit just one more mode geez had known wouldn have bothered asked them why and all got was your point well taken but orchid software developers are busy with other projects get the point finally are there any drivers out there that can handle high res hicolor modes love get another card but perhaps will have wait until the next generation cards comes out since this card came bundled with system and not easy exchange these things unless they broken you want these modes steer away from orchids cards vlb vlb least until their developers are less busy the magazines are believed only seen one product thus far which can handle color genoa although evenn that might misprint please there are generic semi generic drivers out there let know where can get them but coulda gotten that with ati vga wonder thanks donyee athena mit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what bus clk speed article uupcb hal ann arbor robert desonia hal ann arbor robert desonia writes there one param the bios setup that says bus clk have clock which beyond isa specs but may all the cards can run that fast would set fact did and set back anything acts weird you get unexplainable floppy drive errors your modem locks you have video problems etc you overdrive the bus then that should the first thing check you get error your system pretty safe overdrive your bus long your isa cards still work flawlessly suggest backing your before playing with though really not bus set clk mhz have problems soundblaster pro zoom fxm rll controller etc all work fine set mhz simply don get past the post routines doubt you could actually damage much playing with allen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings solution was switch the interrupt irq which unreserved contemporary computers using irq for the drives went out with the architechture not completly true for class and later machines irq reserved for lpt since rare have second parallel port usually good safe choice you need interrupt the other hand just ran into problem with that here work gateway computer has modem com mouse com and the other serial port was set com which normally uses the same interrupt com had real fight with board when trying use irq and discoverd the problem was that gateway had set such that com used irq soon disabled com our problems went away grumble after several days trying figure out why the interrupt didn work mike sprague wbst xerox com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ast hot shot recently acquired ast hot shot accellerator board for sans documentation does anyone know what the dip switches the back the card did come with software any help information about the card would greatly appreciated thanks rob robert bultman speed scientific school university louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu robert bultman speed scientific school university louisville internet rmbult starbase spd louisville edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond speedstar hicolor card have isa system with meg using diamond speedstar hicolor video card with meg vram and standard ctx svga monitor when running windows and have overlapping windows say application overlapping the program manager window and close the active application window erasure very slow the part the window that not overlapping erased first very slowly this also happens when iconify application the hicolor card advertised faster than standard video card but does not have accelerator chip running this slow speed simply expected without accelerator chip there something else that bottlenecking the system that unaware thanks you can mail directly you wish genek ucsb edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner problem recently when run the norton disk surface test realize slow down harddisk accessing begining the test the harddisk will checked the speed that usually the surface test scaned half way through harddisk tremendous slow down occured the expected time for operation will jump from minutes try use some the harddisk tools check there any physical damage harddisk and report always turn out none the surface test only slow down for certain section the disk and turn back the original speed after gets over the section wondering whether harddisk problem some other problems anyway help comment will appriciate shane cheney wang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need phone number for western digital esdi problem have esdi controller with rom bios has been working fine until recently upgraded motherboard mhz now maxter drive goes crazy making lots seeking sound even when the drive not accessed course with numourous hard disk controller errors these symptoms disappear when switch non turbo mode mhz suspect some timing dependent rom bios routines there newer version could anybody help this the way new mother board has ami bios cache mhz bus and works fine with old mfm drives had dig them also will appreciate very much somebody send the phone numbers tech support bbs for western digital many thanks advance jay physics seattle choe phys washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cache micronics eisa vlb motherboard this might silly question but have ask anyway the process purchasing eisa bus computer and found two places that sell machines that have what want and have the same price the first ares and they use cache motherboard that the brand the motherboard with opti chip set the other micron formerly edge technology and they use the micronics eisa vlb motherboard said that this might silly question since believe that micronics very well known motherboard manufacturer while never heard cache however leaning towards the ares machine because impression that they are known for building good solid machines and they have good tech support days and better warrantee years micron the other hand seems have recently aquired edge technologies and not sure how much should trust the company would really appreciate any input this the micron machine the clear choice does anyone know anything positive negative about either company has anyone ever heard cache motherboards should with micron just because has the micronics motherboard etc thanks very much advance for any information mohammad ansari
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	int for joysticks slow using int read joystick and hideously slow something like cpu time being spent reading the joystick and this program that does nothing but printf and joyread the problem that lot programs trap int like smartdrv and slow hell interface can read the joystick port reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn platform clockspeed specific thanks brianzex
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	colorado jumbo for gateway world std com peter davis writes just installed new colorado jumbo tape backup unit from gateway and have couple complaints with don know how common serious these problems may would appreciate some feedback from others who have used this system btw this tower system have similar configuration colorado tower the problems are firstly gateway shipped only tapes even though the drive unit when called complain they only said that all carry and with compression you can fit one tape maybe but then why did pay extra for the large capacity tape drive you got suckered the same way did silly believing that the logo the front meant actual carrying capacity the people who this sort thing for living call marketing lawyers who prosecute call fraud perhaps can have bunch other duped buyers march their corporate headquarters have about data drive choose the space optimizing compression scheme and started full backup the software estimated would take about minutes took hours does this sound about right this bit long system takes about minutes the same thing usually hours particularly the tape grinding away the whole time means that your block size for the write too small there any way change the block size write buffer size bigger during the backup about dozen files came with access denied errors most these were windows system comm drv keyboard drv shell dll etc but also windows progman exe and couple files the tape directory anyone else had this happen this because the files are opened dos the files the tape directory are likely the executable file the configuration file for the tape system would recommend running the backup from dos will make complete backup the tape directory thanks for any and all feedback this system also appreciate hearing good sources for blank tape cartridges preferably size the cartridges won you any good since the drive won write physical data the tape thanks brent williams brentw netcom com san jose california
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help phar lap spectre spectre nmt edu wrote could some one tell what phar lap err the chip currently executing virtual mode under the control another program you must turn off this other program order use dos extender run protected mode means this shows compuadd express whenever program such matlab maple run has been tried under dos msdos and dos there nothing nada memory nothing appears virus check anybody spectre jupiter nmt edu spectre cyborg nmt edu this world and everything illusions richard every bit illusions you understand that donald shimoda used get this problem with autocad when using the noems switch with emm exe dos you allocate some ram emm the problem should away tmc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with simms article pxx austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes article lhdsy lahabra chevron com jjctc lhdsy lahabra chevron com james tsiao writes article apr fct unl fcm diana fct unl fernando correia martins mei writes spectre spectre nmt edu wrote when look magazine that says deleted what exactly the numbers mean which the the numbers and refers nanoseconds could someone explain exactly what this numbers means time spent bettwen processor request and answer retrieved case reading means the time required for the memory refresh needs before ready read again nope the time taken read data from memory the read time the memory will still have refreshed the whole phase called cycle the cycle time being about twice the access time sorry misunderstanding your post but dram does not have refreshed each access cycle cycle time does not have twice the access time because refresh phase the access time usually means the delay time from falling edge raw address strobe ras data bus driven dram access cycle timing chart can roughly shown following some signals are intentionally omitted addr raw address column address ras high low floating cas driven either data valid valid cycle time access time ras access time yes the cycle time more than twice the access time but not because the refresh phase the refresh can done either trailing phase normal access cycle individual cycle other stuff deleted ken nakata apologize there are incorrect rude and impolite expressions this mail post they are not intended please consider that english second language for and don have full understanding certain words each nuance phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com ports modem mouse conflict really article apr wnbbs nbg sub org comp sys ibm hardware alt msdos programmer comp sys ibm misc general ibm misc forsale computers comp dcom modems oli wnbbs nbg sub org oliver duesel writes there yuri windy berkeley edu yuri yulaev writes have card when plug wang modem com works change com doesn program chkport gives diagnostics like possible com irq conflict com with mouse driver memory since your card only has one serial port this should default com under dos you can share irq you have set either your modem your mouse com using different adresses and irq when you set two devices onto the same irq like com and com and the latter one will always win you have your mouse com and start using your modem com your modem should work but your mouse will stop doing until reboot should problem setting your modem com you didn write anything about other peripherals hope helped bit oli kind new the stuff machine has serial ports com and and share same irqs you mean can plug mouse into com and modem into com and expect both work answer should change irq for com ports different and does really matter which irq set the ports too phil phil hunt wherever you there you are howtek inc internet phil howtek com uucp decvax harvard howtek phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article apr uxmail ust ngfo uxmail ust forrest normandy writes want buy monitor any comment nanno nec sii thanks lot forrest normandy the hong kong university internet ngfo stu ust science and technology mail ngfo uxmail ust department computer science phone paging hall hkust hong kong windows sources magazine reviewed number monitors recently and they too said that the nanao was the best monitor get you had the money but they also said that the mitsubishi diamond pro the next best choice and that has superb picture quality this monitor can had for around has anyone actually seen any these also thinking buying monitor and was going consider the mitsubishi remember correctly think its viewing area measured diagonally thanks mohammad ansari alansari indiana edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes what does meg megs sec scsi drive cost since the quadra the only mac able deal with and hard drives start have idea for the mac have the following these are all external etc scsi scsi for the mac goes down price hard drive size goes and assume the same for the world won argue that the scsi standard makes for good well implimented data highway but still want know why intrinsically better than ide isa bus when comes multi tasking when managing data from single scsi hard drive well scsi also floppy drive interface the mac since scsi the inteface for any non card non modem not keyboard device the used for the floppy drive called cpu all identifiers this allows cross drive interfacing fast the program cpu scsi and drive can handle this shows best the quatra line the ibm that uses scsi for the floppy drive this should happen well also scsi not just drives but printers scanners expandsion cards this showed for the plus the nubus cage rom etc ide seems mainly hard drives for specs nobody has given any and can find any besides the advertizments call ide the interface make that what you will scsi jack all trades and ide master one this alone puts scsi above ide scsi blows ide out the water remember scsi was used high priced machines until about months ago when the mac prices came down earth the rule scale still played and scsi remained high cost cheap seems mean chezzy the high end computer world times and this more than anything else proably kept scsi off into the statosphere price wise scsi came from the high end computer world with multitasking were the standard for the most part all the interface next could have used choose scsi bit and bit mode scsi multi tasking desined interface while ide and bit scsi are braindead run one program interfaces least the way mac use bit scsi ugh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi magazine april although scsi twice fasst esdi faster than ide and support devices its acceptance has long been stalled incompatability problems and installation headaches note what does not site factor price int same article the would will get plug and play scsi from the article seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi full implimentation has ten not devices scsi intergration sited another part the microsoft plug and play program
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	esdi with ide article qegfd dqi wsinis info win tue monty wsinis info win tue guido leenders writes possible use esdi controller with hdd together with ide harddisk controller one isa system read stuff about secondary controllers does this trick work thanx advance guido monty win tue have the same question guido possible use the esdi drive master and the ide drive the slave the moment have been using the esdi drive and recently bought ide drive use the drive the person the computer shop told that not possible run disk controller cards together the same motherboard esdi and ide but think there might some way making them work can anybody enlighten this and possible run esdi hdd using ide controller vice versa can anybody please help out this your help will very much appreciated chow els fawlty eng monash edu els mdw monash edu gtchow yoyo monash edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy drive problem help have problem with floppy drives effort make drive normally drive switched the order connections the cable from the serial card floppy ide controller booted changed the cmos settings reflect the drive the and the drive the the drive lights didn come and there was failure trying read from those drives switched the cables back their original positions and then booted and restored the original cmos settings the lights for the floppies came during this process and they stay for long the computer see that when there disk the drive spinning yet there seems disk access msd exe and norton detect both drives but when try get detailed information about norton tells that there disk the drive can anyone offer any suggestions desperate need help thank you for your time eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with bit mode for ati finally got the vesa driver for ati graphics ultra plus however when tried use this view under bit mode get lines the picture with bit below the picture fine can someone tell what was wrong the card the software thanks user name edward wong internet wong webo com telephone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article qlbrlinn dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says magazine april although scsi twice fasst esdi faster than ide and support devices its acceptance has long been stalled incompatability problems and installation headaches love when magazine writers make stupid statements like that performance where they get those numbers list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such statement absurd scsi ranges from scsi ranges from ide ranges from esdi always although there are some non standard versions
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	toshiba rom any problems thinking about getting toshiba rom and hooking through the scsi port media vision pro audio spectrum sound board does anybody have this configuration out there does work for anybody general who has the toshiba rom drive have you had any hadware problems door not opening scratched disks door not closing getting stuck not closing all the way holder jamming and any other related problems thanks advance mark
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with adaptec scsi and jumbo tape drive just replaced existing dtc scsi controller with adaptec and now having trouble restoring from jumbo tape drive had trouble installing the adaptec and dos recognises both the scsi drive and existing ide drive however when went restore the backups from the jumbo tape found that was extremely slow estimated time mins actual time min have trouble restoring from the same tape the ide drive seem remember reading that some settings had changed enable the jumbo drive and the adaptec work together but can find any mention the manuals system config adaptec running fujitsu scsi ide controller running ide jumbo running off floppy controller ide any help would appreciated thanks ron ronaldm extro ucc ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc mariposa phone work bilgola plateau home australia ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc mariposa phone work bilgola plateau
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	joystick suggestions depends what you like your joystick for seen gravis joysticks radio shack they seemed flimsy and didn fit well hand have heard games that they don last well less than year flightsims one redeeming feature does seem the ability adjust the tension the stick recently purchased flightstick there aren any suction cups and tension adjusters but otherwise seems excellent joystick currently using for the wing commander series and red baron works quite well the large base does not require steadying hand and leaves free the buttons provide good tactile response you can hear and feel them well there are other models made that can down features for price comparison gravis analogue joysticks sell for here compared the paid for flightstick think the extra worth just feel best thing ask salesperson let you try them out least feel before you buy just another note analogue joysticks are best for flightsims something that needs sensitive touch you only playing games such castle wolfenstein some other game that only uses digital input only down left etc instead how much right you might want look into gravis gamepad they look like nintendo control pad but don know much beyond that will christie aatchoo philosophy the principles and university manitoba science thought and reality winnipeg canada leaking philosopher someone who thinks chrstie ccu umanitoba brain lubricant they useful society
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article geh utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes yeah just read another newsgroup that the uses high quality trinitron tube than most monitors the sony for example and this where the extra cost comes from also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc also where the two annoying lines across the screen one third down the other two thirds down come from tony catone compstat wharton upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	buslogic questions goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes can anyone tell this card works with the march beta believe since the buslogic cards have proven very reliable where get drivers endusers not oem manufactures will get all the software package with the card which includes drivers for novell unix xenix and forth does this card work with the toshiba cdrom dos definitely here setup quantam scsi toshiba cdrom considering the because have been told buslogic support better than adaptecs and that the performs better than the anyways just want know the will work dos with above peripheals thank you extremely much for any and all replies
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with adaptec scsi and jumbo tape drive ron mastus ronaldm extro ucc wrote just replaced existing dtc scsi controller with adaptec and now having trouble restoring from jumbo tape drive here document that wrote some time back slightly out date now that dos has been released but much still useful darryl okahata internet darrylo com disclaimer this message the author personal opinion and does not constitute the support opinion policy hewlett packard the little green men that have been following him all day adaptec txt darrylo rel darrylo hints and tips for the adaptec scsi adapter this document contains hints and tips for getting the adaptec scsi adapter work with various hardware and software packages they are based upon experiences with adaptec controller and will hopefully help others however note that cannot guarantee that the following will really help you works for and the information this document could possibly cause you lose some all your files your hard disk important back the entire contents your hard disk before trying anything based upon information this document copyright darryl okahata this document may freely copied for personal use only and may not reprinted for profit publication without the consent the author please note that have connection with adaptec other than customer topics covered this document windows enhanced mode floppy controller based tape backup devices sound cards miscellaneous info please note that parts this document contain technical and sometimes terse descriptions problems for reference adaptec technical support adaptec bbs please send comments corrections etc via email compuserve internet darrylo com windows enhanced mode the windows install program should automatically configure dos and windows for use with the adaptec however just case something went wrong going describe some the changes needed get windows working with the also you may have noticed that installing windows makes your run much slower even when you not running windows methods speeding are discussed the section called windows runs slowly msdos configuration the windows install program adds the smartdrive disk cache your config sys and autoexec bat files you follow the instructions you notice that you need use double buffering with smartdrive this the default setup you also notice that your system runs much much slower both windows and msdos see the section called windows runs slowly for some ways speeding your system windows configuration get the adaptec work with windows make sure that the enh section the system ini file contains the entry virtualhdirq off believe that the windows install program automatically adds this entry system ini but not sure this doesn work for you you might want try adding some more lines virtualhdirq off systemrombreakpoint false emmexclude cfff you probably don need the above lines though the systemrombreakpoint entry used enable support for memory managers like qemm max only needed you use such programs windows runs slowly once you get windows running with the chances are that your system running much slower than before not probably because you happen using aspi dos sys version your config sys file congratulations this appears winning solution you are very lucky whether your luck will hold out remains seen your system running much slower than before this almost definitely caused smartdrive with double buffering according the windows documentation and the microsoft technical note smartdrive double buffering required with aspi dos sys you must use smartdrive with double buffering enabled while this works really slows down your once estimated that this slowed down factor five consider this unacceptable looked for other solutions unfortunately you cannot just disable double buffering you windows enhanced mode will not work and you might even destroy the contents your hard disk trying run windows what you can one the following use other drivers that provide double buffering opinion that the unbelievable slowness smartdrive caused either horribly inefficient double buffering bug smartdrive use driver that provides vds services vds stands for virtual dma services this standard which supported windows that allows bus mastering disk controllers like the work with windows after trashing hard disk countless times found the following solutions none which require using smartdrive note however that now getting occasional parity errors which are probably not caused these solutions but might see below while the following does not require smartdrive using some kind disk cache utility strongly recommended this makes windows run much much faster you not have the aspi dos sys driver you not need aspi functions for controlling cdrom tape drive more than two physical hard disks etc you can add the scsiha sys driver your config sys file driver scsiha sys windows needs the option this driver must loaded into low memory cannot loaded into high memory and occupies about november the scsiha sys driver could obtained from the adaptec bbs hopefully still there you need aspi functions and have the aspi dos sys driver version you can use both the aspi dos sys and scsiha sys drivers your config sys file driver aspi dos sys driver scsiha sys amazingly enough the scsiha sys driver can also loaded high assuming you have dos would have thought that this would crash system but doesn asked adaptec technical support about this and they said that loading scsiha sys high should fine long aspi dos sys loaded low system not using scsiha sys with aspi dos would occasionally cause windows crash upon restarting exiting windows with the additional result corrupted disk some windows grp files would corrupted for these crashes usually occurred while making different program from progman exe the default windows shell and vice versa this the reason scsiha sys may necessary have absolutely idea scsiha sys necessary with versions aspi dos earlier than note that many people can use aspi dos without scsiha sys they not seem have any problems all consider these people lucky others like have had all sorts problems opinion the best but not necessarily the easiest solution upgrade aspi dos the scsiha sys driver longer needed unfortunately while you could get previous aspi dos upgrades from the adaptec bbs the aspi dos driver not available from the adaptec bbs far know there are only three ways get copy you can buy the new november adaptec scsi driver kit which supposedly includes aspi dos well other drivers such cdrom drivers believe the list price around you already have copy older version aspi dos you can supposedly contact adaptec upgrade scsi for around copy aspi dos included central point tools for msdos note that the documentation and driver are stored different directories note further that only aspi dos included the cdrom drivers and drivers support more than two hard disks are not included this where obtained copy aspi dos note however that now getting occasional parity errors with windows all probability defective hardware causing this upgraded motherboard just after found the above solutions however because these parity errors occur only during disk accesses there very small but definite possibility that the parity errors are driver related for example changing the bus off timing for certain disk transfers might cause this run various memory tests for hours time and these tests have found problems this problem probably caused memory with marginal timing requirements which cause parity errors during disk transfers this why the memory tests didn find any problems the problems show only under disk however mentioning this just case isn hardware problem floppy controller based tape backup devices there are two possible problems with using the adaptec with floppy controller based tape backup device such the colorado memory systems jumbo tape backups restores can take very long time the tape drive constantly starts stops starts stops etc tape operations may erratic encounter too many tape errors this problem might caused defective hardware however heard other people having similar problems and mentioning this just case not hardware problem tape backups restores take long time you have floppy controller based tape backup device you may have adjust the adaptec bus off timing for best results when using the tape drive normally while doing tape backup restore the tape drive motor should continuously running with only occasional pause however the default bus timing the adaptec may cause the tape drive motor start and stop start and stop every few seconds this causes needless wear the tape and tape drive however note that dirty tape head defective tape drive can also cause this make sure your tape heads are clean this also causes the tape backup restore take much much longer than necessary the problem here that these tape backups use the floppy dma transfer data memory from the tape drive and the adaptec uses dma transfer data memory from the hard disk the floppy dma needs feed data the tape drive certain rate the tape drive not fed data quickly enough the floppy dma the tape drive stops rewinds bit and restarts once enough data eventually fed the default bus timing the adaptec which really dma timing too large for example when backup done data has transferred from hard disk memory and then from memory the tape because the default timing the adaptec hogs the memory too much too much time spent transferring data from hard disk memory not enough time spent transferring data from memory the tape drive result the tape drive constantly starts and stops because data not fed quickly enough the solution change the adaptec bus off timing the default factory setting microseconds and microseconds off the bus timing needs lowered microseconds this can done one two ways you have aspi dos you can use the option for example use bus timing microseconds which means that use the following line config sys file device aspi dos sys note that there space between the and the you don have aspi dos your only recourse try find program called setscsi exe which very difficult find the reason that adaptec for reasons their own does not seem want this widely distributed once asked someone who worked for adaptec and they asked not upload anywhere you have anonymous ftp access the internet you could try using archie hunt down copy believe that there are couple sites that have you find copy you run like setscsi this adjusts the bus timing microseconds running setscsi exe without any arguments resets the bus timing back the factory defaults note that seems that you cannot use setscsi exe you use aspi dos setscsi exe crashed system aspi dos was loaded could use setscsi exe with scsiha sys however not lower the bus timing below microseconds increase above microseconds you lower too low the hard disk throughput will suddenly drop your system will feel slower for microseconds works fine this value may work fine for you you may have adjust downwards little once you lowered the bus timing tape backups and restores should run faster also not experiment with the bus off times with the other options that have intentionally not described unless you know what you are doing bad combinations can cause parity errors and worse starving memory refresh program called bustifix exe exists the adaptec bbs unless this has been upgraded since last checked which has been while this self extracting archive containing batch file and couple other files this batch file was supposed allow one set the bus off times for the and others however when tried running this program with system crashed the time was running scsiha sys and didn check see there was conflict with maybe this old program works only with the although the docs say that works with the erratic tape operations too many tape errors this problem may may not exist although existed system hardware problem just particular could cause however heard other people having similar problems and mentioning this just case isn hardware problem just symptoms this problem which persists even after cleaning the tape head backing tape encounters unusable sector detected errors resulting aborted tape backup tape backup works but the tape compare fails the tape drive starts stops starts stops etc much too often unlike the above mentioned problem tape backups restores take long time where the tape drive starts and stops every few seconds this kind starting stopping occurs every few seconds fastback plus does not find see any tape backup devices other programs like central point backup and the cms jumbo software assuming that you have cms jumbo tape drive can find see the tape drive but fastback plus cannot too many tape read errors although not know what causing this problem discovered that using different floppy controller solves few months ago upgraded motherboard which contained integrated floppy controller already had floppy controller the initially disabled the motherboard floppy controller after while decided try disabling the floppy controller and using the one the motherboard when did this the tape drive cms jumbo reliability increased dramatically and fastback plus was suddenly able find and use the tape drive don know this was caused hardware problem the one hand the floppy drives worked great when they were attached the which seems say that there was nothing wrong with the the other hand the tape drive didn work well attached the floppy controller but did work when attached different controller this could indication hardware problem did change floppy drive cables and conceivable that the problem was the cables don know what the cause really however you having similar problems you might want consider trying new floppy controller sound cards many popular sound cards can play record digitized sound and this typically done using dma like the tape drive dma the adaptec dma can conflict with the sound card dma unlike that the tape dma this conflict usually manifests itself parity error your system crashes with parity error message what happens that data being transferred quickly the sound card and the adaptec memory refresh cannot occur quickly enough which causes parity error usually getting parity error means that there hardware problem with your system this case however the parity error not symptom bad hardware found that such parity errors typically occur while recording digitized sound and the chances such errors increase you increase the recording fidelity higher sampling rate recording stereo recording using bits instead etc like the tape drive solution the solution here lower the adaptec bus timing see the section tape drives for information how this done note however that this may may not solve the problem may only reduce the probability parity error the software used record digitized sound can greatly affect this problem some software inefficient disk caches the speed your hard disk and the amount disk fragmentation can also affect this miscellaneous info this section contains miscellaneous hints tips and rumors much merely information that heard read about and have not verified believe that the following information correct but not sure use your own risk with qemm and you need specify the parameter unless you are using the aspi dos driver you don qemm will crash hang bootup although the qemm manual mentions this the install program does not seem detect that present and automatically add this option the qemm command line least this occurred with the qemm install program haven tested any other version earlier versions qemm probably need this parameter but not sure never used version earlier than you use aspi dos you not need give qemm the parameter some all versions the not support hard disks over one gigabyte size support hard disks with capacities over you need get new rom bios from adaptec not sure this still true the latest being sold adaptec connect cdrom drive the you need scsi cdrom drive and some drivers note that some cdrom drives have proprietary interfaces non scsi these drives cannot used with the you have three choices for cdrom drivers have idea how well the following solutions work even they work the following secondhand information you can buy adaptec scsi driver package which lists for something like you already have older adaptec drivers you can supposedly upgrade scsi for around contact adaptec for details the scsi package supposedly contains everything that you need you can buy the corelscsi driver package which made the same people that make coreldraw this package contains cdrom drivers scsi tape drivers worm drivers etc not know the list price but seen this package sold for around note that corelscsi does not come with the aspi dos driver which needed you not already have aspi dos you may better off getting adaptec scsi instead this method obsolete the following drivers have been obsoleted adaptec scsi kit but mentioning case someone already has these drivers you can use the drivers the adaptec asw kit aspi dos and the asw kit aspi cdrom drivers you will have get copy mscdex exe high level cdrom driver not included the asw kit but this available from several bulletin boards use scsi tape drive with the you need software that knows how talk scsi tape drive software that heard about are again like the above section cdrom drives have idea how well the following solutions work even they work the following secondhand information central point tools for msdos supposedly supports large number scsi tape drives comes with scsi drivers aspi dos well central point backup the corelscsi driver package contains scsi tape backup program see the above section cdrom drives for more details however note that corelscsi does not come with but requires aspi dos seen advertisements that sell the three configurations scsi controller with hard disk rom bios scsi controller bios and adaptec aspi drivers scsi controller bios adaptec aspi drivers and corelscsi drivers programs imagine that adaptec now sells the fourth configuration scsi controller bios and scsi drivers including aspi drivers those people who use unix might interested version gnu tar for msdos that talks scsi tape drive via the aspi dos driver you need this driver before you can use this program never used this version gnu tar but heard that works don know how well though you have anonymous ftp access the internet copy can found wsmr simtel army mil and mirror sites msdos dskutl aspibin zip gnu tar for scsi tape drives adaptec aspipat zip patches for aspibin relative gnu tar aspisrc zip src for gnu tar for scsi tape adaptec ctrlr have idea copy can found compuserve unixforum might have any forum does far msdos concerned the and the controllers are the same with msdos the should work well the however the hardware for these two boards not identical and there least one non msdos program that initially did not work with but did work with bsd version bsd unix case anyone curious here edited copy config sys file files buffers break stacks device sys dev aspi dos sys device qemm qemm sys ram rom dma ffff dos high umb devicehigh sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh dos setver exe shell dos command com note that using qemm and aspi dos were using aspi dos probably have use config sys that looked like files buffers break stacks device sys dev aspi dos sys device qemm qemm sys ram rom dma ffff dos high umb devicehigh sys dev scsiha sys devicehigh sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh dos setver exe shell dos command com weren using aspi dos probably use something that looked like files buffers break stacks device sys dev scsiha sys device qemm qemm sys ram rom dma ffff dos high umb devicehigh sys dev nnansi sys devicehigh dos setver exe shell dos command com however used floppy controller based tape drive planned record high quality sound from sound card would still need some way changing the adaptec bus off times the first two versions config sys take care this but this last version doesn local variables fill column eval auto fill mode nil end
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital info needed western digital also has three sets pins the back using with another hard drive well and the settings for the jumpers were written right the circuit board the drive can remember what the last one was you can find these markings the circuit board open machine and tell you what mine are kevin holly mcmaster university hamilton ontario hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	zeos computers recently purchased the then current pkg for but changed nec fgx monitor upgrade buy this pkg now for more you now get bigger with cache days ago when bought this pkg was with cache this great deal although generally recommended you least upgrade the zeos ctx monitor for more believe whether you also upgrade the diamond viper video card your choice stayed with the diamond speedstar pro zeos tech support really good call after normal business hours get the fastest access the hardest part about buying zeos the wait till delivered once you order you can hardly wait get there are quite few good mail order houses around lots bang for buck with zeos
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos boot disk required you don want emm load article poinnsvf levelland utexas edu sms utexas edu stephen mark sanderson writes from sms utexas edu stephen mark sanderson subject dos boot disk required you don want emm load date apr everybody dos users particular take note you want play games that hate use their own upper memory manager dos not problem boot disks required your system starts hit the key this tells bypass config and autoexec altogether you get plain generic session dos with nothing loaded there another function key that actually steps thru config sys asking you want execute each line but forgotten the moment you can try finding think you need not bypass the config sys dos there function multi config have you tried boot sys the multi config the kind that you can choose you config sys the startup and find that very good has conflict qemm have problem when using boot sys the key you say which trace the config sys step step sorry any error phillip phillipau cuhk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital reply western digital voice mail can get information many drives actual person the end
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	micron computer inc formerly edge technology since the net has convinced not try fastmicro they were still answering their phones does anybody have any opinions micron computer inc their magnum got editors choice the jan roundup email and sumarize greg greg ncel navy mil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dac circuit day all was looking build parallel port digital analogue converter the other day and came across this schematic which promptly threw together piece veroboard electrolytic ceramic please excuse the obvious limits the lower ascii char set have all constructed here and sitting inside nice little grey abs box unfortunately can get work have little demo here the name cronologia which the schematic came from and all can get pump out the box data type hash static with small amount music signal behind even worse than the speaker inside the machine does anybody out net colourful computer world have any ideas suggestions better designs improvements wastepaper bin etc many thanks for reply via this conference email regards jason jason bordujenko computer department internet usenet tanus townsville grammar school fidonet node grammar bbs paxton street data phone int townsville queensland aust australia facsimilie int aust god made him simple science made him god stephen king the lawnmower man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	heatsink needed andrew you can get the heat sinks digi key part size comes with clips install but was would get small fan from radio shack and install where could just blow the cpu instead sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	which high performance vlb video card brother the market for high performance video card that supports vesa local bus with ram does anyone have suggestions ideas diamond stealth pro local bus orchid farenheit ati graphics ultra pro any other high performance vlb card please post email thank you matt matthew lawson mblawson essex ecn uoknor edu now nebuchadnezzar praise and exalt and glorify the king heaven because everything does right and all his ways are just nebuchadnezzar king babylon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from drive have drive drive how can make the system boot from drive optimally the computer would able boot from either checking them order for bootable disk but have switch cables around and simply switch the drives that can boot disks that also boot won the trick for thanks davebo david weisberger president you care say any more about the operational details the airlift djweisbe the president unix amherst edu how about explaining the american people why important issue for the united states undertake the president what
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info about fast centronics ecp epp hello the edn magazine found note about the new controller support several parallel port protocols including fast centronics microsoft enhanced capabilities protocol ecp enhanced parallel port epp the last two handle data rates mbytes sec there any specification about these protocols available regards christian franke aachen university technology informatik ahornstrasse aachen germany tel mail franke informatik rwth aachen
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitor for xga apr watson ibm com kaul vnet ibm com writes home viewsonic like the multisyncs because easy run them modes like colors noninterlaced higher modes like yeah just got new eizo flexscan yesterday replace old and tried with this mode just great can get four perfectly readable command windows the screen and need more colors can back even one thing wondering though why isn there monxxxx dgs file which contains all the resolutions now have change the xgasetup pro every time want switch instead simply going through the system settings regards martin erzberger
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	 problems with initialization described the manual the following steps must done for initialization the card initdisplay bios call with reg with reg for resolution interrupt unlock register lock for access register set unlock register lock for access syst control and syst extension register unlock graphic command group set bit syst configuration register unlock advanced display functions set bit function control register after these operations the fifo stack the should empty when watch the status graph proc status always get the value instead full would mean ffh places occupied empty would mean places occupied possible read this register two different ways both times get different results our machine with eisa bus and local bus any ideas andreas disteli institut fuer computersysteme eth zuerich email disteli inf ethz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	recommendations for local bus cached ide controller apr gmt divya sundaram sundaram egr msu edu wrote would like hear the net wisdom and net opinions ide controllers would liek get ide controller card for vlb motherboard what are good options for this preferably under must also work under and compatible with stacker and other disk compression have maxtor isa ide controller although machine vlb has the save transfer rate regardless the variations the isa bus speed tested with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem not the interface between the controller and the memory advice buy megs ram save and enjoy performance penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simulator example code available hello world attempting write simulator ibm for teaching purposes that first year elec eng students can see the workings the microcontroller performs operations logical ands for example being shown bit bit basis and that the students can see that not really mystical process but totally logical for example every instruction should show some working and not just alter register memory port contents does anyone know any freely available example simulation code pascal modula that would show where going wrong writing simulator using ayala the microcontroller reference the simulator supplied with the package overkill for simple teaching purposes feel and there source code help you roll your own please email you can help you know somewhere more appropriate should posting this rarely scan these groups thanks lloyd wood wood lut
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanna sex hello you not quite sure that joke not anyway you read the article you right the header only this joke worth reading perhaps some you know regular list ide harddisk specs where give all available information about ide harddrives strongly interested contacting the manufacturers directly but have money for overseas calls need harddisk manufacturer email addresses please help you can carsten carsten grammes internet hucg uni experimental physics voicenet universitaet saarbruecken faxnet saarbruecken germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	connection machine hiya all realise this has little with but does have lot with hardware has nay you heard computer called the connection machine could you mail any and all info you have references ideas etc all help appreciated caviar dreams cause minyos rmit royal melbourne institute technology music like directing sounds theatrically moulding them into landscapes wanted link music places architectural environments and visual techniques jarre
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi controller folks have first seagate the second cdc with future domain ram like change controller ide scsi and buy new one with ram least that could controll all them any companies how many and possible via via select how divide the ram cache for for example using dos that about all one like reserve ram cache just thanks all write rosa ghost dsi unimi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	apple hard disk drive just wanted ask question bought hard disk drive second hand the other day and opened the packaging and saw that there was small sticker the drive that had little red apple with bite taken out socket did not look the same existing hard disk that computer already has fifty little pins sticking out from instead the that sticking out old hard disk don know disk drives for the apple mac are different from ones used clones could someone tell could use this hard disk clone not what did just purchase quantum prodrive dated the green board will need controller add card all the help much appreciated thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hard disk question article aovai qube ocunix aovai qube ocunix aovai writes just disassembled old and get disk drives hard drive and floppy drive questions are can use these drives drives this currently has hard drive floppy drives can what need would doubt that you would able use the hard drive drives usually came mfm rll flavors bet your has ide drives the two are not compatible the same controller however you might able use the drive with its controller your you should able plug your drive into your existing controller think you might have use the floppy controller that was used the timothy timhu ico isc com the intelligence lack expressed interactive systems corporation above does not necessarily reflect resource solutions international that anyone else also thu grips uwyo edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what video board for system appreciate any advice about video card for system ram novell network monitor nec fge capable vertical refresh rate major considerations expect will work mostly windows but with some dos applications and would want decent speed dos mostly word processing database and communications not much intensive graphics with monitor expect will work mostly and colors seems plenty but like like the image sharp fast and rock solid other considerations sometimes run unix clone coherent and understand that some companies diamond don encourage the third party development drivers might move decide need better speed and reliability than get with windows for database work and multitasking don have local bus motherboard not sure how much invest isa video board versus getting something less expensive now and upgrading local bus later like buying things from companies that treat their customers well you have any advice for love hear via email post thanks david todd department psychology university massachusetts amherst usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa eisa hello can anyone give their opinion which system has got the best overall system performance with isa bus with eisa bus the systems are equal all other areas thanks advance jesper honig spring spring diku animals believed god university copenhagen denmark the devil would man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mountain tape backup does anyone out their have mountain tape backup that could compare notes with jumper settings software ect does anyone know where could contact the makers this drive you can contact mountain network solutions general number tech support bbs thanks very much for the info david especially for their tech and bbs lines this should get going bye slmr only hobby only hobby only origin the keep bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ctx started similar thread about month ago and got many replies the summary ctx nasty low quality avoid ctx proscan not good some other makes however cheap main problem seems poor quality control some reported pincushioning the problem had others poor focus etc etc complained about mine and was tuned dodn even pay shipping and returned days now clear well focussed and has pincushioning barrel distortion all very happy with and the digital controls and mode memory are nice certainly trinitron say would much nicer but that well out price range conclusion you budget get one and prepared send back not perfect probably won when you get but has good potential chris
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa eisa fri apr gmt jesper honig spring spring diku wrote can anyone give their opinion which system has got the best overall system performance with isa bus with eisa bus eisa vesa royal among others celling such system for penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi almost got hernia laughing this one anything scsi will obsolete killed off vesa local bus ide must real nice get shafted bucks for the extra cost scsi drive then pay another for scsi controller first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may longer sufficient for limit second rumor microsoft recognizes the the importance scsi and will support soon just not sure dos win any rate the deal with corel who makes hear good cohesive set scsi drivers mark ashley disclaimer opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	difference between vlb and isa eisa hurley epcot spdc com writes article apr spdc com what about vlb and does the local bus still run mhz does try run mhz brian vlb defined for cards mhz and cards mhz there are designs with mhz and vlb slots mhz and slots are realy difficult design better oss are able handle more than dram you use eisa bus has someone experience with vlb think scsi vlb busmaster the problem the bit floppy dma controller which unable reach more than joerg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	orchid fahrenheit sparkel the answers thanks all you who responded post here the official response from orchid orchid aware the problem the new rev the board rev should not would take care the problem production was scheduled start april have confirmation that production did start this day just the word the tech the other line now the flame you would think company like orchid who has produced good quality products the past would more helpfull and willing make right screwup theirs very poor tech support the first times called must have spoke with the janitor because they where talking craziness the last time talked tech named paul and seemed have pretty good idea what was going until these problems are resovled neither myself nor department will buy recommend orchid products flame off again thanks all you who answered post terry
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	two questions two questions trying figure out how access cmos advanced chip setting eisa motherboard air that has ami bios specifically would like set the atclk wait states bus speed this board can seem able any help this area would greatly appreciated looking for phone number for wangtek tape drives specifically looking for jumper settings drive thanks advance tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eisa tape controllers there qic format tape drive that comes with eisa controller colorado only has isa and mca controllers thanks mail please mark ashley disclaimer opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	choosing appropriate power supply please help previous article lopes cogsci ucsd edu alann lopes says the problem that recently had bad and someone suggested that may have been because inadequate power supply how does one know what kind wattage necessary run two large maxtors and not expert understanding the watts output the power supply must exceed the sum the hard disk watts requirement typically power supply sufficient power hope this help lau hon wah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	why vesa local bus previous article guyd austin ibm com guy dawson says something bear mind what the vlb stands for for video the origional intention the bus was speed the bus that large memory memory transfers would faster this espically useful transfering data from main memory video memory well not picky but the vlb stands for vesa while the vesa stands for video saying the vlb stands for video not entirely correct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	which these rom players would you choose for netters need cdrom drive order was cancelled and thought why not ask the net community was ordering nec cdr but saw much cheaper ones that want know more the drive will used install software and available for listening perhaps some day want use read the other but that not really relevant the moment been offered the following rom players for the prices stated they all claim have scsi and operate under the drives are not listed the cdrom faq and therefor please give your opinions the drives got the impression that they not all scsi actually the nec was listed non scsi the cdrom faq and compatible scsi product the faq calculated the prices having dutch guilders times actually about times mitsumi crmc philips lms philips toshiba nec cdr who bought that trantor that the faq extremely cheap and scsi what the trick where can order holland using mastercard trantor regards name meuldijk address gildelaar teteringen fax holland mail volkert kub oooo oooo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	perfect mag monitors been intently following the mag thread while waiting for mine arrive the mail there seems lot complaints about minor alignment problems with the one article contained comment that the owner called the factory and was told that his screen rotation was within spec well monitor arrived last night and sure enough has very noticable barrel distortion not dramatic but there and especially noticable when the image doesn fill the entire screen the fact that worse the right side doesn help matters what trying find out these minor imperfections are the norm are most their monitors perfect don want send back and get one with the same even worse problem does the factory consider this kind thing normal and ship their monitors with less than perfect alignment are other netters just living with these kind imperfections comments and opinions are mine not bnr doug adcock adcock bnr bell northern research research triangle park
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	connecting apple laserwriter ibm has anyone tried connecting apple laserwriter need any special controller card software that thanks for any comments sardjono insani scip nusunix nus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	shopping for new nec monitor article qjfa inn titan ucs umass edu dtodd titan ucs umass edu david todd writes from dtodd titan ucs umass edu david todd subject shopping for new nec monitor date apr article qhppp gha darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes basically looking for svga non interlaced monitor the nec the one most the computer mags use their standard and from what seen and heard looks pretty good but bit expensive bucks the best deal seen thought perhaps might find something good for less any recommendations also thought about the nec fgx which has the same specs the except for the scan frequency which more limited anybody have any comments this one would work with believe that nec replacing the and fgx with fge and fge models reportedly being released the end this month waiting for fge the main difference being year warranty and higher refresh rates the higher resolutions sounded from magazine note that the fge was being boosted number ways call the nec number and have them send you info david todd department psychology university massachusetts amherst usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax have been using nec fgx for several months now several others here also have this monitor have had problems personally would spend extra money for this monitor and sacrifice other features such mhz viz mhz based the comments others you might want view the fgx the series running windows the refresh rate appears for but you might feel differently finally speaking spending money with the size today files etc tape backup certainly worth recently set friend mhz and vesa local bus the redraw time for graphics program was only factor faster which doubt warrants the extra cost
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted opinions mag and nanao monitor sleeping dragon ong mang iastate edu wrote looking buy monitor soon and seems that can decide what monitor should buy have mag this dpi version and using triniton tube and nanao mind good luck finding when was looking around back december january mag wasn producing any because they couldn get tubes from sony asked when they expected restart production was willing wait few months get but they said not any time soon wound getting and extremely happy with david david engel optical data systems inc david ods com arapaho road richardson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hard disk utilities all you gurus new these groups and please forgive questions are frequently asked but don know the answer been recently having some problems with computer with seagate meg hard drive occasionally find corrupted files but most the time programs work fine are there any utilities that are easily available that can help determine whether not the problem result the hard drive ill behaved program some other hardware item are there utilites determine whether not the hard drive properly aligned etc might expected would greatly appreciate any help this matter considering just reformatting the disk and reinstalling everything and hoping that will fix the problem but would like have some assurance what the problem cause also can someone give opinion dos are the compression and defragmentation routines good enough consider the upgrade don have those routines already opposed buying them separately much thanks advance for any help mitchel soltys soltys radonc unc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	recommendations for local bus cached ide controller article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev venezia rockefeller edu writes would like hear the net wisdom and net opinions ide controllers would liek get ide controller card for vlb motherboard what are good options for this preferably under must also work under and compatible with stacker and other disk compression have maxtor isa ide controller although machine vlb has the save transfer rate regardless the variations the isa bus speed tested with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem not the interface between the controller and the memory advice buy megs ram save and enjoy performance computer mhz bus isa mhz drive maxtor config sys autoexec bat dos win smartdrv sys cache smartdrv exe core sec sec sec norton sec sec sec still like here from people with vlb ide still want know what vlb bus speed used with ide drives still want know some most ide drives can handle bus speeds mhz friend with and new maxtor meg ide drive gets between sec can remember exactly think the bus running mhz this case
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm convertible parts sale have some used but working parts available for the original ibm laptop the convertible you have one these things and still are using you may have found out that ibm wants outrageous prices for parts built supply enough parts keep mine going for few years and will willing part with the rest basically have all the standard parts except motherboard battery power supply got few the accessories too just ask these are very limited supply however basically just cannibalized couple old machines you are interested please mail note for those who want convince themselves that they are somehow superior because they have newer and better machines who want inform that these are worthless junk save your effort just delete the note those who bought these machines when they first came out still find them useful for word processing etc saving mine future antique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi dxb psuvm psu edu writes scsi ranges from scsi ranges from ide ranges from esdi always although there are some non standard versions the above does not tell the proper story scsi scsi bit asynchronous ave synchronous max transfer base scsi faster this requires scsi controller chip and provides scsi bit bit speeds with scsi controlers scsi with burst bit with burst bit and with burst bit wide and fast bit scsi can wide fast depends how the port designed the quadras will support fast scsi but not wide when the scsi manager rewritten since the quardas use scsi non wide port the article mag was talking about scsi scsi uses ten devices native mode outside its native mode behaves lot like scsi devices slower through put from your own figures scsi indeed twice esdi the article pointed out for faster then ide that seems bit scsi using scsi contoler chip the mac quadra uses scsi controler chip for its scsi and gets through put for asynchronous bit scsi far excess normal synchronous scsi output which near the burst scsi machine with scsi controller chip the world seems have scsi and scsi mixed fact scsi controler chips allow near scsi speeds through scsi device shown the mac quadra which skews some the data scsi ide esdi test agree that the article could have stated that the faster then ide came off scsi device with scsi chip maybe was there and the editor killed because the article was dealing with scsi not scsi and did not understand the effect scsi device with scsi controller chip scsi chips are limited max scsi devices with scsi chips becoming common produce bit mode and bit mode the fast version scsi ports cannot use wide scsi cource the prime piece wierdness that scsi devices have scsi chips more accurately the machine does this allows the best both worlds high scsi speeds and cheeper scsi costs full scsi hardware port electronic controller etc very expensive also creates logistic nightmare how fast scsi goes when one knows the facts behind the numbers then one realizes that the article knows what talking about even does not tell how the figures came about while dxb psuvm psu edu throwing out ranges that don tell squat since ignores scsi devices with scsi chips his ranges tell even less then intended
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with bit mode for ati article wong apr webo com wong webo com wong writes finally got the vesa driver for ati graphics ultra plus however where did you get this driver please please please been waiting months for this when tried use this view under bit mode get lines the picture with bit below the picture fine can someone tell what was wrong the card the software thanks user name edward wong internet wong webo com telephone cannon lobby com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi dxb psuvm psu edu writes article qlbrlinn dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says magazine april although scsi twice fasst esdi faster than ide and support devices its acceptance has long been stalled incompatability problems and installation headaches love when magazine writers make stupid statements like that performance where they get those numbers list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such statement absurd scsi ranges from scsi ranges from ide ranges from esdi always although there are some non standard versions all this shows that you don know much about scsi scsi with scsi controler chip range indeed and that all you have right about scsi scsi with scsi controller chip with burst bit note the increase speed the mac quadra uses this version scsi does exist some use this set too scsi bit scsi mode with burst scsi bit wide fast mode with burst scsi bit wide and fast with burst your own data the although scsi twice fast esdi correct with scsi controller chip scsi can reach which indeed faster than ide all these scsi facts have been posted this newsgroup mac ibm info sheet available ftp sumex aim stanford edu the info mac report mac ibm compare version txt should but may still there part this problem both mac and ibm are inconsiant about what scsi which though well documented that the quadra has scsi chip apple salesperson said uses fast scsi chip not burst does not scsi maximum synchronous and quadra uses ansynchronous scsi which slower seems that mac and ibm see scsi interface and think scsi when maybe scsi interface driven the machine scsi controller chip bit mode which much faster then true scsi can don slam article because you don understand what going one reference for the quadra scsi controller chip digital review oct
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from drive djweisbe unix amherst edu david weisberger writes have drive drive how can make the system boot from drive optimally the computer would able boot from either checking them order for bootable disk but have switch cables around and simply switch the drives that can boot disks that also boot won the trick for thanks davebo you can try get into the setup byt pressing ctrl alt ins ctrl alt printscreen most that should give you option set regarding the drives boot from
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sound read sometime the last couple weeks article which desribed how play sound through soundblaster didn save the article and all old articles have been purged from our system here would whomever posted the article detailing where connect the wires please post specifically need know where connect wires from the speaker the card thx advance carl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit box gateway while playing around with gateway local bus machine last night became apparent that windows didn give the option for bit access for virtual memory using permanent swap file and the disk drive the local bus interface this expected should investigating further why bit option appears thanks for any help scott linn scott hpcvccl com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question how get serial mouse working ibm notebook you happen know how can get serial mouse pins working ibm notebook which has kind bus mouse connection besides serial and parallel interfaces the manual doesn say anything about tried two drivers with the result that left and right buttons are recognized but mouse movement not should cut shortcut some wires from the mouse thanks for your help eddy zondag philips research egzondag prl philips
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	laserjet upgrades dpi opinions larryhow austin ibm com wrote what are the current products available upgrade the resolution which ones support postscript any experiences with them either good bad the quality difference really noticable planning producing camera ready copy homes will the higher resolution noticed for these you are talking about laser jet then believe has postscript don see any advantage using pcl when you have peice hardware plugged into the that doing the work and can support any language that suited for the job besides don think pcl even capable handling dpi specifications only have experience with the laser master winjet which brings the dpi and uses postscript also has fast print mode which not postscript and lower resolution dpi think but fast this particular product uses your host processor process the postscript even with decent you know going slow slow compared high end workstation processed the quality difference very noticable and almost worth the wait for the processing rather impatient were using for camera images the gray scale image was accepted word and handed the winjet printer driver which converts the image into postscript and then hands off the winjets postscript processor the postscript rendered into ram lots and when done shoots directly the printer the processor can also accept files created from other sources including dos applications but windows has running the time printing the processor responsible for the halftoning and say does pretty good job our camera images came out very good opinion not good laser master demo though don know how many other similar products are out there but would surprised there are several gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tandberg future domain tmc seagate problem trying get system work with tandberg future domain tmc seagate mfm controller the system boots the tandberg disconnected from the system and course scsi devices found have other scsi devices the system boots the seagate mfm controller removed from the system the future domain card reports finding the tandberg the scsi bus the system then course stops booting because mfm hard disks can found the system hangs all three tandberg future domain tmc seagate mfm controller are the system looks like there some conflict between the seagate and future domain card but the funny thing that only hangs the tandberg connected have checked that there are conflict bios addresses irq port have missed anything lost here any suggestions are most welcomed thanks advance delman delman lee tel medical image processing group fax university pennsylvania blockley hall service drive philadelphia internet delman mipg upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	logitech button mouse bios routines availability newsgroups comp ibm hardware subject logitech button mouse pin out bios routine availability distribution world organization purdue university engineering computer network have logitech button mouse that want interface serial port different non ibm compatible system the mouse compatible with connector tried reverse engineer the mouse but has micro controller inside could get the pin out and perhaps copy the bios routines that support could map all this into target system anyone know where might get the pin out the bios routines are the routines published someplace convenient thanks silvio please send email directly
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from drive david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote have drive drive how can make the system boot from drive optimally the computer would able boot from either checking them order for bootable disk but have switch cables around and simply switch the drives that can boot disks that also boot won the trick for thanks davebo had the same issue plague for months our gateway finally got tired permanently interchanged the drives the only reason didn the first place was because had several bootable and some based install disks which expected the drive order all new software and upgrades and the number stupid install programs that can handle alternate drive are declining with time the ones had are now upgraded and for the bootable just cut replacements switching the drives not option you might able wire drive switch your computer chasis haven tried but think would work long wired carefully gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings the cybard dudek acsu buffalo edu wrote uzun netcom com william roger uzun writes have soundblaster board and have jumpered irq port will this conflict with parallel port just have ide controller multi board with ser par port and vga board should choose another irq besides irq safe use motherboards recently was adding modem computer and noticed that lpt uses irq and does card never had problem but just wondering why not thought this would cause conflict would also like explanation this anyone can explain why the pro and lpt can share irq please thanks tom huot huot cray com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bye today will longer contact for zeos international the net this responsibility has been taken over another tech davidm zeos com and moving and money money just wanted thank all the netters who have supported and encouraged the participation zeos the net personally feel important for companies such zeos provide their customers with easy access possible when they have questions problems and being the net big step the right direction hope that other companies will follow suit weitek and others have done again thanks jre jim erickson zzzz eeee ssss zeos international ltd support zeos com inet technical support dept uunet zeos support uucp sss industrial blvd any opinions expressed minneapolis herein are own zzzz eeee ssss fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing old older compaq are trying install donated hard disk miniscribe vintage supercheap ancient compaq for use education the only problem that the supercheap compaq didn come with the manual and haven been able figure out how start the setup program began using pcs after were invented have couple basic questions did class computers even have setup programs they did how access anybody has any good advice how proceed what next what look out for please let know mail best but also watching the newsgroup postings thanks advance robert robert luke internet luke aero org the aerospace corporation compuserve danger will robinson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	zeos computers mspeed ccwf utexas edu matthew speed writes looking purchasing system from zeos computers would appreciate people could give some feedback about the quality their products and customer service along with any advice about which systems people like thanks advance bought system little over years ago and was satisfied with everything about zeos that computer went off grad school with son and replaced with pkg mbhd ram with diamond viper level cache and tower upgrades delete the ctx monitor got monitor employee purchase this great system fast quiet solidly built not single glitch bringing tech support seems busier now than years ago called with configuration question and they called back hours later with the right answer think there slight premium over gateway prices but imho zeos worth btw they have enough lines that never gotten busy signal calling sales customer service tech support now you usually wait minutes talk someone but least you get the queue and wait their dime devilbiss col com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what svga excuse every one amiga owner and tired have the same graphic modes saw there was little bridgeboard that made the amiga slots communicate with the stanndard amiga slot the building mother house this little gadget assure that using this thing can use all the boards included the svga cards interested computer graphics and not know many things about general what the best isa slot card the market like reach resolutions like with colors with bitplanes any suggestion thankyou advance paolo silvera certified commodore amiga developer silvera ghost dsi unimi
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd cpu any comments amd microprocessors good bad thanks pat
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	leading tech question hey does anybody know anything about leading technology computers have leading technology and need new mother board for does anybody know where can get one leading technoology really made samsung samsung model
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info high quality video card need some info video card looking video card that can deliver high quality picture need the card display images well for advertising company btw must rich with colors and the speed must fast too just wondering somebody can advise what buy for such application and possible the address the vendor thanks advance glenn jayaputera
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comments accelerated video card for isa bus looking buy accelerated video card for with isa bus have svga monitor currently running dos and windows although considering the future can anyone make suggestion for video card that would suit needs how diamond speedstar stealth etc thanks kent
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitor with rgb sync vga don know this obvious question but can any the current batch windows accelerator cards diamond etc used drive monitor which has rgb and horizontal and vertical sync bnc jacks altogether connectors out the back might able get ahold raster technologies monitor cheap and was wondering was possible connect via adapter rgb vga gateway would need different drivers etc thanks mike scanlon please reply scanlon interlan com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	for sale decpc sxlp for sale decpc sxlp very good condition used for one year has mhz intel hard disk super color vga monitor button mouse floppy disk drive software microsoft dos microsoft windows microsoft works for windows borland turbo pascal borland turbo for dos asking for the system send mail interested
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors tony catone catone compstat wharton upenn edu wrote article geh utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes yeah just read another newsgroup that the uses high quality trinitron tube than most monitors the sony for example and this where the extra cost comes from also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc also where the two annoying lines across the screen one third down the other two thirds down come from the lines are not result the high end trinitron tube these wires will found all trinitron tubes mitsubishi sony etc sony tubes you find one wire their level annoyance purely subjective happy with the sharpness the that don even notice the lines the uses trinitron tube which when viewed complete tube has larger diameter than the standard trinitron tube this results flatter screen than other monitors using the standard trinitron which has vertically flat but not horizontally flat surface and apparently the ability provide tighter beam focus karl tracy blomquist mail tracyb bnr fax consultant opinions are own bell northern research box stn ottawa ont
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes would also like explanation this anyone can explain why the pro and lpt can share irq please think simply because dos doesn use the irq for anything does with that you can share the irq anssi anssi saari tut tampere university technology finland europe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article qlbrlinn dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes magazine april although scsi twice fasst esdi faster than ide and support devices its acceptance has long been stalled incompatability problems and installation headaches note what does not site factor price there premium approx for the controller what nice being able run hard disks tape drives roms and scanners one dma channel and interupt scsi makes sense you are going load machine you just want standard box for windows then ide makes sense have one loaded box that uses scsi and run unix and one standard box that runs dos windows that uses ide standard mean ram disk video int same article the would will get plug and play scsi from the article seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi full implimentation has ten not devices beleive this last bit just plain wrong scsi intergration sited another part the microsoft plug and play program guy guy dawson hoskyns group plc guyd hoskyns tel hoskyns guyd austin ibm com tel ibm austin usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	orchid fahrenheit mini review just purchased viewsonic and and orchid short happy with the monitor and unhappy with the card have spent lot more time futzing with the card that what going write about the monitor pretty the moires had under simcity magnavox went away isn heavy thought would lbs think much for the monitor the bitch session and test results going with the modern trend the orchid card only supports colors mode without driver course this breaks any dos program which uses svga modes like most roms the compudyne whiplash vga orchid fahrenheit and orchid vlb all share this limitation those are all cards which means problem for them the uses weitek vga chip which also doesn support them the hercules graphite card does seem have these modes but didn run the same test cases did the other boards during the brief time had was able print the splash screen for the grolier encyclopedia though which the cards just printed hash which why suspect the svga modes are supported the supported resolutions really annoy you can you tell the driver you have nec they only have about six monitors listed plus generic and you choose generic you can get any high refreshes all but you are limited seems that the hardware should able support the bandwidth can sure should able higher vertical resolution was the main reason bought the card over the orchid vlb currently have and will well the higher graphics modes all crash dashboard just got off the phone with orchid and with the drivers don know what have was unable recreate the problem the plus side their tech rep was helpful could and booted the program his computer verify didn have the problem didn know why they limited the refresh either the board faster that the ofvlb for most things according the hercules speedy program this program tests various operations and reports the results pixels second don have the numbers for the graphite card but they were close half the ofvlb slower but that was running mhz isa the numbers aren really comparable the following numbers were all obtained using mhz air motherboard umc chipset with memory give ranges because the program reports the numbers computes them and these tend jump around bit means thousand not means million pixels per second orchid fahrenheit vlb orchid chip weitek dib screen memory screen screen screen vector solid vector styled polygon shaded polygon hatched ternary rops font the dib screen test takes device independent bitmap face and transfers the screen have idea what being done internally far conversions the memory screen takes the same face and copies the screen guess after has been rasterized into bitmap that can just copied the video display the screen screen test copies that face from place place the screen awesome interestingly the solid vectors and shaded polygons show improvement and hatched polygons filled with cross hatching and ternary rops whatever they are graphics operations like xors maybe are dead loss the give two numbers for the fonts because think they are caching when the fonts are first drawn the screen they are done fairly slowly the speed the ofvlb then the speed increases dramatically sounds like programming benchmark make claims that these numbers mean anything all its just what saw when ran them computer normally don write disclaimers but this time maybe better testing totally unconnected with work program under unix decstations done completely without the knowledge blessing equipment company geoff sherwood
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question can connect two harddisk one controller got victor with harddisk the controller toshiba mfm controller with additional pins connector there are busses from harddisk this controller one with wires and another with wires the controller has two connectors for wire bus and one for wire bus now got harddisk from friend mine and wondered whether can connect this second harddisk the same controller there room for wire bus but not for the wire bus how can solve problem any suggestions you need more info mail please luttik fwi uva bas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	video card different address like add second based video card system does anyone know company that sells card that can coexist with another one all really need color text one monitor and fast color graphics the other probably just configurable address would
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	switch like switch floppy drives that drive becomes while becomes having few problems though know that the ribbon cable must switched well the cmos settings reflect this change and think that done that correctly however the drives not operate correctly this configuration from the prompt type the drive light comes type both the light for the and drives come there are some jumpers each drive label original pos pos changed off off off off off off off off off off off off off off off off off off ttl any help suggestions would greatly appreciated thanks advance eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help select backup solution netters looking purchasing some sort backup solution after you read about situation like your opinion here the scenario there are two computers the house one small ide drive the other scsi drive adaptec controller both systems have tools and will use central point backup the backup restore program both systems have and floppies the computers are not networked nor will they anytime soon from what have seen far there appear least possible solutions sure there are others haven thought about for these options would appreciate hearing from anyone who has tried them sees any flaws drive type won coexist with device etc thinking don know very much about these beasts put floppy drives combination drive each system can someone supply cost and brand information what good brand what the floppies themselves cost put internal tape backup unit the using scsi adapter and continue back the with floppies again can someone recommend few manufacturers the only brand remember colorado memories any happy unhappy users know about the compression controversy connect external tape backup unit the using scsi adapter and maybe connect the somehow any suggestions install floptical drive each machine again any gotcha recommendations for manufacturers appreciate your help you may either post send mail will summarize all responses for the net thanks george george pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh fax disclaimer these opinions are own and not reflect those the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates carnegie mellon university fact any resemblence these opinions any individual living dead fictional real purely coincidental there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help video problems using ibm monitor greysale with trident card the screen looks great windows but total shit there are lots lines and the image sorta blurry there anything can you think the monitor know that interlaced that res but still thanks for the help paul davies pdavies alchemy chem utoronto
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comments video blaster creative labs article apr ultb isc rit edu mej ritvax isc rit edu writes edu heiser acs edu bill heiser writes article rdy chinet chi randy chinet chi randy suess rites the video blaster doesn work with the ati graphics ultra pro doesn work with system ram are you serious can use video blaster what are the alternatives other than removing memory get better one hows about the win thing the wailer the gates dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling froofroo head just friend the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet good perfer watchit can run dos and windows win only run windows sorry still good watchit will not work with local bus video will not work any high reolution modes either the people who make the card assure that they will have card available june that supports both local bus and res btw does anyone know the name the company who makes watchit phone bbs internet thanks michael grant mikgr wordperfect com mikgr wpsun uunet net
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	int for joysticks slow lioness oak circa ufl edu writes using int read joystick and hideously slow something like cpu time being spent reading the joystick and this program that does nothing but printf and joyread the problem that lot programs trap int like smartdrv and slow hell interface can read the joystick port reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn platform clockspeed specific the joystick reads anolog values through digital port how you send command the port read then you time how long takes for the joystick port set certain bit this time proportional the joystick position obviously since time used position you cannot get rid this ridiculus waste time you wrote your own routine instead the bios would speed some but the time would still there john slagel old man used tell before left this slagel uiuc edu shitty world never chase buses women you always get left behind the marlboro man
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fujitsu and seagate ide drive compatibility been trying get fujitsu hard disk circa share ide card with new seagate one tried fiddling the jumpers set the master and slave drives without any success without the table hard drive specs from this newsgroup couldn have got that far has anyone else got this combination work the place got the new one muttered something like hmmm fujitsu nice drives not very compatible let swap the seagate for another brand but thought was more problem with the fujitsu has anyone got similar fujitsu drive work with another cheapish disk want buy cute and cuddly little fujitsu drive andrew henry bspahh gdr bath
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	memory access time was sram and simms sale ben elliston writes msg fidonet org posted mon apr organization compact solutions canberra act australia sram way thinking michael how could this memory static ram has speed rating didn think sram needed refresh time doesn that make fast dram this chip would take return valid data after being issued address refresh time none for sram you pointed out different parameter and not generally referred except motherboard designers cheers ben ben elliston bachelor engineering computer engineering university canberra email jarrah canberra edu uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa compsol root fidonet train station where the train stops what workstation origin compact solutions canberra act australia doug oke vancouver canada doug oke mindlink
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	asus motherboards considering the purchase vlb system run linux the system has asus brand motherboard anyone have any comments asus motherboards thanks bob craycroft craycrof rtp semi harris com systems analyst phone harris semiconductor rtp usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	specs for drive greetings all could some kind sole email the specs for western digital drive model with cyl and hds but not know the sectors per track any the other information have feed bios get and running thanx for any help bob roking lynx dac northeastern edu nope sig honest
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need definition the spec and dhrystone benchmarks need definitions the spec and dhrystone benchmarks any background material would also welcome anyoneand email something point anonymous ftp server appreciate thanks dykes adykes jpr com adykes com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	toshiba rom any problems have the pas toshiba combo and have problems with
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adaptec asw and sony cdu about two months ago purchased the adaptec asw driver for use with rom drive the time this seemed the thing the documentation had with adaptec scsi controller said that this the driver used with rom drives since then have learn that this driver out date major way and that adaptec have upgrade deal for going the next driver think called ezi scsi something wasn too fussed about this until upgraded rom drive from sony cdu sony cdu now find that the audio mode will not work assume not being handled correctly the asw driver should chase adaptec for upgrade does anyone know their fax number any assistance appreciated regards btw everything else works fine certainly seems that sony have caught with the rest with the nigel harwood post coles supermarkets box glen iris australia phone mail nigel cnw storesys coles fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	not rotate interrupter woops help aaahhhh please someone tell what have done meg miniscribe has big sticker the side that says not rotate interrupter big knob here big knob sticking off the side the drive pretty hard not turn when removing the drive turned now the drive won spin even with data controller cables plugged just power won spin please help thanks paul carroll pec msstate edu pec erc msstate edu nsf engineering research center for computational field simulation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	drive won boot recently switched drive the problem while can read and write both the new and correctly can boot from floppy checked the cmos settings set for floppy seek boot and boot order once had floppy that did not have the systems files got message telling put disk systems disk the drive didn work when have systems disk the drive this what happens power and memory test light comes light comes followed short beep light comes for instant light comes again then nothing happens the light goes off there disk activity any kind and the screen blanks can even use ctrl alt del any suggestions thanks advance eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck kevin kosman uucp kevin gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck running dos with menu system alive all the time the machine left running all the time suddenly the date longer rolls over the time reasonably accurate allways but have change the date hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system get dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should even clue whether the hardware battery cmos dos broken kevin gorman kevin kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp nrc com voice vital computer systems beachcomber oxnard non disclaimer boss and stands behind everything say started notice the same thing myself running dos and win can fix from the windows control panel times the date others the clock seems running several minutes behind where should you find out like know also and also leave system running all the time barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose fax email bsardis netcom com compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing second ide drive recently cousin got second internal ide drive seagate can look the model number important and been trying help him install got vested interest since machine busted and have use his until get mine fixed already has seagate ide again forget the model number but can find out anyway can seem get the bloody thing managed get one the other drive with the other disconnected but not both the same time whenever try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller instruction sheet says supports two drives think configured the cmos correctly the power plugged properly even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed have didn know pcs were into and think configured the jumpers properly the one the master the new one the slave the only thing can think maybe doing the cabling wrong tried several combinations controller master slave controller slave master master controller slave none them worked unfortunately can think any others another possibility that the one already partitioned into two seperate drives and and the cmos asks for drive and drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others seen could this confusing things need help the drive came bereft any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has little piece paper about the size index card cannibalized the cable one those with connector each end and the one the middle looks like serial connection now lost many many thanks advance this practically emergency have two papers this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer don speak for suranet and they don speak for
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article qmgtrinnf dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says dxb psuvm psu edu writes article qlbrlinn dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb says magazine april although scsi twice fasst esdi faster than ide and support devices its acceptance has long been stalled incompatability problems and installation headaches love when magazine writers make stupid statements like that performance where they get those numbers list the actual performance ranges which should convince anyone that such statement absurd scsi ranges from scsi ranges from ide ranges from esdi always although there are some non standard versions your own data the although scsi twice fast esdi correct how twice you just pick whatever scsi setup that makes the statment correct even you could make such statement would meaningless unless you understood that esdi and ide include scsi and ata are completely different esdi device level like mfm rll with scsi controller chip scsi can reach which indeed faster than ide all these scsi facts have been great you can compare two numbers ata has several speed modes the way but what the article said was misleading wrong posted this newsgroup mac ibm info sheet available ftp sumex aim stanford edu the info mac report mac ibm compare version txt should but may still there would recommend people call the ncr board and download the ansi specs they are really interested this stuff part this problem both mac and ibm are inconsiant about what scsi which though well documented that the quadra has scsi chip apple salesperson said uses fast scsi chip not burst does not scsi maximum synchronous and quadra uses ansynchronous scsi which slower seems that mac and ibm see something missing there anyway agree there lot opportunity for marketing jingo like scsi compliant which tells you nothing about the performance whether has wide support etc one reference for the quadra scsi controller chip digital review oct what does use hopefully good ncr chip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need phone number for western digital esdi problem western digital sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help monitor dying recently svga monitor has been acting taking about minutes warm previously when first start can see all the cmos messages ram test etc but now got wait for about min before the display shows anything and starts with bright white flash this only happens when the system has been off for long time overnight was only off for couple hours and then turned again the display works normal like before does anyone know what causing this warning that will give soon just signs aging the system and its about yrs old used systems work for years and never seen this happen monitor yet really appreciated any help that you fellow netters can offer thanks lot edwin edwin edwin ccu aukuni engineering university auckland private bag auckland new zealand
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi here again article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article ercc netcom com erc netcom com eric smith writes scsi better because has better future and has lot minor advantages right now ide cards are cheaper right now but will obsolete few years fact ide cards are cheap they might well free the real cost the ide drives scsi cards cost more but they are worth almost got hernia laughing this one you probably get one when you realize that your vesa super dooper local bus ultra high tech controller sucks anything scsi will obsolete killed off vesa local with any luck bus archeitecture will doen any with sbus have you ever seen what happens when you hook busmaster controller vesa local bus actually slows down your system bus ide must real nice get shafted bucks for the extra cost scsi drive then pay another for scsi controller maybe workstation doesn understand what your vesa local bus ide vesa local bus will killed off pcmi whatever intels spec vlbus not good for much more than vga cards each his own laugh when you start crying over how much you spent for your little ide drives and then finding out you need more space the biggest advantage scsi right now that you can add more different kinds devices such tapes etc easily and can add bigger disks the best and most cost effective hard disks available are scsi here here only you need drives larger then meg yes gotta have megs sec transfer rate for those speedy tape backups and rom drives don stick your foot your mouth when you make statement you know nothing about rather wait second compared the minutes and ide would take obviously exaggerated have you ever tried backup gigs disk forgot you can because you have ide and one makes ide disks that big basically person has ask which one better for him her then they will probably never see the expensive benefits from scsi guess you probably bought too also all this arm waving about scsi expandability moot point the user only has one two drives and with scsi those two drives may fast but that speed only due the onboard memory cache something can duplicate with caching ide controller what the scsi fast wide spec has much more bandwidth than any stupid vlbus ide crap stop this thread now its just cluttering bandwidth you want read about scsi ide just pay visit you local usenet archive the best scsi fast wide etc clearly faster than any the best ide drive all the response given are based upon personal experience with drives you can judge such completely different interfaces ide has the low cost adavantage descent performance scsi has the ability for super high capacity expandibility and speed neither one better all cases you don belive what said about busmastering and vlbus then pick back issue week whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards send flames dev null scott mace internet smace nyx edu emace tenet edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa limit was just reading magazine that the peripherals with isa bus can only access memory also that some video cards the isa bus look for memory aperture map their memory that wanted put memory video card wouldn have anywhere map memory can someone explain this more detail there way around this limit you email response will summarize begolej csgrad edu james begole begolej csgrad edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors have sony monitor and don see any lines across the screen and only using the non interlaced mode but because the hor lines and poping that see and hear when usinf and modes and switch back anything less would not buy another sony what ever price this guess viewing area don impress one bit sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help identify this old com ethernet card article qhvuninnhau emory mathcs emory edu splee org seng poh lee speedy writes have old com ethernet card bus that came out apollo workstation trying identify order use the assembly number rev and bit card circa has aui port well bnc coax connection has selectable address for the bios dma and irq locations via berg jumpers also appears have intel processor board presumably for buffering the ethernet chip appears intel pin dip package this chip equivalent the used some cards there also pin plcc chip called link please mail don think this general interest least favorite last line post general interest prepare retire apollos myself looking for ways recycle the useful parts mike simon simon moscow uidaho edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	changing motherboards messing with connectors article portland caps maine edu jozef slaby portland caps maine edu writes when changed motherboard had lot trouble getting led spkr turbo turboswitch hdd klck rst connectors correctly reconnected for example turbo switch had three wires and the motherboard connection only two pins and does anyone know solution this need rewire the connectors what the best way approach this somewhat frustrating got work somehow but turbo switch doesn work all just put replaced the motherboard system and had similar questions cents worth the speaker connector should have two wires going the speaker speaker being coil bidirectional and makes difference which way you attach turbo switch there are three wires control how you want turbo become active with the switch pushed the switch out think the middle wire common use ohm meter figure out which wire connects with the common wire when the switch pushed and which two wires are connected when the switch out place the appropriate two wires the turbo berg connector the motherboard led turbo and led are uni directional depending which way the wires are attached the led will not light ami motherboard the turbo switch wires are not attached the berg connector the board the board will power default turbo mode your motherboard like that just attace the led wires the board the led doesn light power off reverse the connectors and try again should work does then attach the turbo switch the board hope this helps dan moyer dan moyer columbiasc ncr com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings article tut tut anssi saari says apr walter cray com huot cray com tom huot writes would also like explanation this anyone can explain why the pro and lpt can share irq please think simply because dos doesn use the irq for anything does with that you can share the irq that correct dos you can use irq for your you can that under because uses irq for the printer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	info genoa vlb card other low end vlb looking for inexpensive vlb card and have yet run across any real reviews them one the cards the local stores are pushing the genoa for apparently uses cirrus logic acc chip but don know which one one the shops spoken with claims the card out performs the diamond stealth and the orchid fahrenheit plus cards based but that can true using the like the price the genoa but lags performance behind the cards pay the extra for one them any info low end vlb cards would appreciated get replies via email post summary info anyone else interested thanks advance brian oppy bjoppy ucdavis edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	splitting drives into two does make them faster article infopls chi andyross infopls chi andrew rossmann writes guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes the partitions take disk space having partition will cost somewhere between meg hard disk space you can afoord this luxury more power you its your choice where does all this disk space the dos partition table fixed length and every hard disk carries one what useing this lost remember right the partition table allocated entire cylinder find out how much takes you need calculate heads sectors also you create extended partition there second partition there for the logical drives think the original respondent guy dawson was refering something much more elementary every partition whether the entire disk not has two fats and initial directory you have small disk meg less would recommend that remain single partition unless you have some other consideration you have large disk greater than meg multiple partitions can make sense mike lipsie work mlipsie merl com mitsubishi electronic research laboratory home mikel dosbears uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	more western digital info needed maccs mcmaster holly writes western digital also has three sets pins the back using with another hard drive well and the settings for the jumpers were written right the circuit board the drive well figured out how the jumpers now have quite different problem that has perplexed like you wouldn know have both drives working the system formatted and all hardware installed only problem that during the boot sequence the computer does not want pass looking for system the drive reinitialization all goes fine and the bios seems configured what necessary all the drive tests work but when the thing comes back around the drive and there disk present just spins you insert disk into drive with system however works fine and boots how installed all software any additional help this will most welcome swood hunting over michigan don despair closed season opossum porcupine weasel red squirrel skunk starlings feral pigeons english sparrows ground squirrel woodchuck anyway trout season opens the last saturday this month
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help monitor dying sounds like magnavox with sick flyback its way out gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors catone compstat wharton upenn edu tony catone writes article geh utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes yeah just read another newsgroup that the uses high quality trinitron tube than most monitors the sony for example and this where the extra cost comes from also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc also where the two annoying lines across the screen one third down the other two thirds down come from annoying are you actually using one are you just talking sitting from one right now and must say never notice them yes course can see them look but annoying way christian christian holmgreen joker diku mochmch uts uni student university copenhagen dept computer science human errors can only avoided one can avoid the use humans
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can write floppy all you experts need answer quick machine floppy unable write formated disk machine claims that disk write protected but not note read with problem please mail post
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	difference between vlb and isa eisa article snx finbol toppoint jschief finbol toppoint joerg schlaeger writes better oss are able handle more than dram you use eisa bus has someone experience with vlb think scsi vlb busmaster the problem the bit floppy dma controller which unable reach more than don think problem since much sloooooooowwwwwwer than the overhead double buffering doesn matter ken nakata apologize there are incorrect rude and impolite expressions this mail post they are not intended please consider that english second language for and don have full understanding certain words each nuance phrase thank you ken nakata cis student njit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how number prongs chip how can one tell which prong your basic chip number realize there chunk the chip missing that one can orient correctly using that hole guide how can count the prongs the chip find please help ren hoek internet ren ccwf utexas edu not who crazy who mad
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with docs for motherboard 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scanners hello there looking out for good scanners gray scale only color which can connected ibm compatibles also automatic tray feeding must can somebody point out good scanners what are things that one should look for while purchasing scanner not want hand held scanners preliminary requirements are dpi dithering half toning various patterns drivers for dos and windows standard file formats what are they automatic feed anything more there any comparative survery byte mag which issue please mail summerize satam satam saathi ernet kirtikumar satam satam saathi ncst ernet scientist network division national center for software technology juhu bombay tel fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	original ibm specs article dutiws twi tudelft winfrvk dutiws twi tudelft kampen writes article apr ucbeh san edu hoffmamc ucbeh san edu ites hard drive with type controller can added but recommend not trying full height hard drive have run into trouble with the supply not having the oomph spool those big heavy platters one way get the system going with one floppy drive and one hard disk watt power supply first disconnect the power from the floppy drive than turn the you will notice the hard drive having real difficult time getting speed but manages when booting finished plug your floppy drive now will work know this not very user friendly maybe you are better off buying with watt power supply something like that willem the newer the drive the less problem you will have the old ten and fifteen meg full heights were power hogs but have over twenty units that set running flawlessly with half height drives and hard cards dao lehigh edu don
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	possible faq question about uart thought post this well mail just case anyone else interested this info article apr henson wwu edu henson wwu edu dan jordan writes hello question could someone mail the names manufactures the and predecsor uarts have only seen them refered number however would like find technical manual for these ics any where can find out the technical specs for these uarts would appreciated prefereably the well the however one will suggest that you direct the original and preferred best quality source for all this just you would least should for the chips themselves national semiconductor you can reach them they longer package the data sheets book they did when got mine but you can get them individual sets data sheets you want minimum the following sets data sheets ins ins application notes yes get these the uart design and application considerations comparison the ins and series uarts both the application notes listed have proven least valuable the data sheets themselves more actually particular exceptionally well written application note that goes into detail about how and why the does what does and how best take advantage btw they send these out free long you don abuse later jim include std disclaimer ial internet jim ial mythical com graham ieee org icbm amateur radio ial zbb walton beach amtor selcal nial mail for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi wayne smith wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wrote article kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point view why does scsi have advantage when comes multi tasking data data and could anywhere the drive can scsi find faster can get off the drive and into the computer faster does have better cache system thought scsi was good managing data bus when multiple devices are attached are only talking about single drive explain why scsi inherently faster managing data from hard drive ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer max why don you start with the spec sheet the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you blue the face but they exceed the isa bus capability then what the point who said isa was necessary eisa vlb are the only interfaces worth investing thousands dollars new worth money who says ide limited megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform you didn read carefully vlb ide uses the same connection mechanism standard ide transfer rate limited ide whether interfaced isa eisa vlb matters not its lowest setting scsi interface asynchronous scsi mode averages the through put maximum ide asynchronous mode full scsi mode blows poor ide out the window down the street and into the garbage can implimented what system mine for one thing scsi blows ide out the water hands down ide has better throughput why isn used workstations and file servers the problem becomes can the drive mechanisim keep with those through put rates and that where the bottleneck and cost scsi comes from not the interface itself but more and more from drive mechanisims use the scsi through put given the original question scsi used only single hard drive controller then necessary get scsi drive that will least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice make any sence what does meg megs sec scsi drive cost that the nice thing multitasking scsi can use both drives once got unix loaded one pcs along with windogs and the can only use one the two ide drives one time pretty ugly just bought quantum for mac home paid for haven seen ide drives cheaper the original cga cart back was think the original ega card pga was scsi has stood relatively alone not coming down price mainly because talking about and not sun sparc sgi name your favorite unix workstation that after millions buying decisions over the years scsi has had plenty time come down price actually talking about scsi being expensive simply because nobody did common interface for the they had common read easily implemented method adding scsi like sun mac then you find scsi the connection medium choice won argue that the scsi standard makes for good well implimented data highway but still want know why intrinsically better than ide isa bus when comes multi tasking when managing data from single scsi hard drive single drive scsi more expensive but you bought your for expandibility you want add more drives whatever the following are why find scsi intrinsically better than ide partial list you can add many different types devices and access them concurrently scsi device works many different machines have mac and home and moving hard drives between them very nice with scsi hook them and away they scsi devices work together better than ide devices for instance recently added older connor meg ide maxtor meg ide the connor must setup the slave will work other way scsi you set the address check the termination plug and away goes have problem with ide mutual exclusion notice that the time takes switch from accessing drive drive quite long compared the time takes switch from drive scsi system under multitasking this very noticable many things can going once one neat thing that noticed lately fringe benefit has been the ability add older almost dead drives storage scsi system with little problem got bunch almost dead meg drives that added now got the interface full but does allow have meg drives meg drive tape drive and meg drive all the same card simply put scsi handier than ide mysterious jumpers figure out greg you can against nature because when you greg shaw against nature part nature too shaw feanor xel com love rockets uunet csn xel com shaw
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi grubb bgrubb dante nmsu edu wrote wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes what does meg megs sec scsi drive cost since the quadra the only mac able deal with and hard drives start have idea for the mac have the following these are all external etc thought you might want the latest prices macweek meg int ext couldn find one available all above are quantum low profile drives the last three are quantum height drives bunch stuff deleted scsi came from the high end computer world with multitasking were the standard for the most part hear hear you can against nature because when you greg shaw against nature part nature too shaw feanor xel com love rockets uunet csn xel com shaw
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide mfm same machine how anyone out there can help would greatly appreciate this christmas built computer out used parts for father law the disk drive that installed was seagate mfm anyway now would like put another into this system don want buy another mfm the only reason why used mfm the first place that was free would need special ide controller also need special ide controller where can purchase one how much are they please send any responses lynn vax mankato msus edu thanks advance stan tyree
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	maxtor drive geometry jumpers 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help gateway freezes help computer from gateway freezing gateway tech support couldn help they want more specifics when freezes did anyway here the keyboard left idle dos for more than minutes can type the command line but soon hit carraige return the computer locks this will happen almost every time whether just booted reset finished using dos program everything works fine don let sit windows different story let the machine sit while windows for minutes more does not freeze however get frequent application errors that kick out application unexpectedly losing work just don know this hardware software problem any help diagnosis things try would greatly appreciated not run any tsrs except smartdrive and qaplus diagnostics says everything good system crystalscan gateway monitor vlb ati ultra pro using mach driver build winchester microsoft mouse thanks guapo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner info please have conner disk model with info all the only thing know that normally used with compaq machines please send information switch settings geometry and looks like normal ide disk but possible use with standard ide controller michael michael thurbin sommarvagen phone vaxjoe fax sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for replacement for jvc disk got hold old zenith laptop with model zwl the hard disk dead but the rest seems work took the zenith apart and found very strange disk for wich now try replace the disk marked jvc model has anyone any specs this disk suggestion where can find cheap replacement for thanks for your help michael michael thurbin michael pcmith rks michael thurbin sommarvagen phone vaxjoe fax sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	video card different address article qmrdd umcc umcc umich edu jon umcc umcc umich edu jon zeeff writes like add second based video card system does anyone know company that sells card that can coexist with another one all really need color text one monitor and fast color graphics the other probably just configurable address would for what worth haven confirmed diamond tech rep told that all based video cards use port addresses and this true appears that you cannot use more than one card your system lance hartmann lance hartmann austin ibm com ibmpa awdpa ibm com yes that percent sign network address all statements comments opinions etc herein reflect those the author and shall not misconstrued those ibm anyone else for that matter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	turbomodem complete question trying transfer some software between two machines and having real trouble own intel bis bis works fine just talk and everything comes out clear this other modem the other machine turbomodem from the complete the machines are seperate houses direct serial link impossible and copying this much data disk pain easier turn the machines for few hours and see movie this not pirated software having end trouble trying set will dial and connect just fine baud but try set the comm kbps the stupid thing connects but just gives garbage connects his machine has afn uart that not the problem seems that the stupid thing wants talk comm program bps even though will take dialing instructions and respond etc other commands don have comm program that can precisely looked the manual but was unclear all know didn have this trouble with the intel came ready connect this way need initialize any way particular also using bis and and mnp when connecting here since our tests are zip far but doesn say there any ideas btw tried the initialization string that use for modem but just gives error that one moscow grandfather who taught literature orphanage has gone trial rostov the don after confessing more than gruesome sexual murders whose victims included children young eight events modern history from the sunday mail apr
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	faq cyrix dlc there faq cyrix dlc could anyone please repost email missed thanks advance alexander poylisher internet apoylis inode com fidonet blue wave qwk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article lkev hpj feanor xel com shaw feanor xel com greg shaw writes why don you start with the spec sheet the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you blue the face but they exceed the isa bus capability then what the point who said isa was necessary eisa vlb are the only interfaces worth investing thousands dollars new worth money then don complain maybe wasn you that scsi was expensive because all had until year two ago was the isa bus one buys scsi for isa because isa slow are you saying that scsi isa bus not automatic winner when compared ide you didn read carefully vlb ide uses the same connection mechanism standard ide transfer rate limited ide whether interfaced isa eisa vlb matters not get different transfer rates out ide when change isa bus speed mine for one thing scsi blows ide out the water hands down ide has better throughput why isn used workstations and file servers ide just variant the old ibm mfm controller least that how looks from software point view was never meant all encompassing protocal standard implimented across different platforms there any argument that ide can can transfer data from the ide drive least fast the drive able provide the data are scsi versions ide drives able deliver higher sustained transfer rates their scsi interface because higher rpm platter different arrangement heads etc given the original question scsi used only single hard drive controller then necessary get scsi drive that will least maybe megs sec for the scsi choice make any sence what does meg megs sec scsi drive cost that the nice thing multitasking scsi can use both drives once got unix loaded one pcs along with windogs and the can only use one the two ide drives one time pretty ugly data going from one drive another and scsi has the ability perform that transfer without the data having through the cpu main memory then yes that the optimal way far know ide can that but when the cpu wants data from both drives data stored main memory are you saying that scsi can grab data from both drives the same time and store transfer that data main memory also the same time working off irq and dma channel isa whatever bus just bought quantum for mac home paid for haven seen ide drives cheaper friend mine just got maxtor meg ide drive for that million bytes mega bytes with the basic interface gets close meg sec transfer his does your figure include few hundred for scsi drivers actually talking about scsi being expensive simply because nobody did common interface for the they had common read easily implemented method adding scsi like sun mac then you find scsi the connection medium choice you saying that scsi would have been the default interface type considering that the vast majority don have rom drives tape backups etc that most only have had hard drive and run dos that scsi hard drives cost lot more than mfm rll drives the time and how common were scsi drives under megs years ago there lot more than the lack common interface card that prevented scsi from becoming the connection medium choice won argue that the scsi standard makes for good well implimented data highway but still want know why intrinsically better than ide isa bus when comes multi tasking when managing data from single scsi hard drive single drive scsi more expensive but that point faster this what all this about you get more performance for the money for all the people that will only have single hard drive their system regardless the will the scsi choice really give them more performance than ide but you bought your for expandibility you want add more drives whatever true but expandibility can also start the bus which means the option there for rom drives tape backups that run off their own cards you can add many different types devices and access them concurrently argument this always held the first time scsi buyer the best reason but how many scsi devices will the first time scsi buyer eventually acquire again does make sense scsi for single hard drive system scsi device works many different machines have mac and home and moving hard drives between them very nice with scsi hook them and away they with all the postings the scsi specs are you really sure that and apple scsi hard drives are compatible and even they are the data accessible from either machine are there formatting partitioning file table differences really plug play scsi devices work together better than ide devices for instance recently added older connor meg ide maxtor meg ide the connor must setup the slave will work other way scsi you set the address check the termination plug and away goes the drive the connor becomes logical drive dos this really problem have problem with ide mutual exclusion notice that the time takes switch from accessing drive drive quite long compared the time takes switch from drive scsi system under multitasking this very noticable many things can going once after having two ide drives system for temporary file transfers have never seen any differences when switching between drives nor have ever seen any differences when transfering files between drives from the same drive one neat thing that noticed lately fringe benefit has been the ability add older almost dead drives storage scsi system with little problem got bunch almost dead meg drives that added now got the interface full but does allow have meg drives meg drive tape drive and meg drive all the same card that nice long the power supply can keep believe that there the possibility for ide drives simply put scsi handier than ide mysterious jumpers figure out but what about mysterious and expensive drivers figure out least ide doesn require drivers that consume precious conventional dos memory
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for omti esdi controller subject says all looking for the jumper settings for sms omti bus esdi controller card thanks advance richard richard solomon ncr microelectronics aeroplaza drive richard solomon colospgs ncr com colorado springs uunet ncrcom ncr mpd richard solomon
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide esdi coexistence hello all you the net are last resort just change job this might faq mixing controllers but haven seen any sys ami bios and your run the mill multi card with serials paral floppies and ide controller clone there are jumpers affecting the ctrller quantum prodrive lps type cyl hds spt want bring this hand neat price maxtor bios type ctrller manages the real geom cyl hds spt western digital esdi ctrller floppies jumpers set irq port addr and bios addr and other floppy format stuff goal have the esdi secondary controller and have both disks simultaneously working being able boot from the esdi too would nice bonus but not expected ultimate goal have room for linux scheme have mind boot from ide floppy and mount the esdi root not booting from esdi even from acceptable have tried numerous all combinations avail they work alone can coexist witout hang ups but can access the esdi the ide depending setup jumpers useful suggestions might how tell the bios setup about two ctrllers guess the expected hang off the same ctrller the need some driver make work some new bios chip for any these cards have buy another controller make them hds happy ide cheaper esdi hard find and rather costly not rich wouldnt try scavenge around soft slns are preferred adapters some sort can hold soldering iron and can change chip put jumper also useful bbs hot line western digital ftp archives with relevant info expert stores toronto ontario area that would miracle haven seen any really knowledgeable ppl while any hints into inner workings the system anything else that helped you similar situations prayers direct posted replies are many thanks cat catalin ivan email ivan iro umontreal tel human computer interaction humain machine universite montreal informatique recherche operationelle
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	toshiba rom any problems msmith beta tricity wsu edu mark smith writes thinking about getting toshiba rom and hooking through the scsi port media vision pro audio spectrum sound board does anybody have this configuration out there does work for anybody general who has the toshiba rom drive have you had any hadware problems door not opening scratched disks door not closing getting stuck not closing all the way holder jamming and any other related problems have one and favorite rom drive far also have nec and have had experience with several other drives various phillips drives the faster than the nec like its door better the nec needs hands the handling the nec needs booted from rom while the does the fly all all seriously considering replacing nec with another toshiba jws
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	please help identify this old com ethernet card simon moscow uidaho edu mike simon writes article qhvuninnhau emory mathcs emory edu splee org seng poh lee speedy writes have old com ethernet card bus that came out apollo workstation trying identify order use the assembly number rev and bit card circa has aui port well bnc coax connection has selectable address for the bios dma and irq locations via berg jumpers also appears have intel processor board presumably for buffering the ethernet chip appears intel pin dip package this chip equivalent the used some cards there also pin plcc chip called link got two very similar sounding boards for dirt cheap too their assy numbers were not series but your description fits otherwise they are com aka etherlink plus cards check out ftp com com there are drivers and diagnostic programs for just about any and all com cards concluded that card was the after ran their diagnostic program for succesfully passes with flying colours anybody know packet drivers for these cards under juha liukkonen aka jliukkon helsinki university helsinki dept lost souls trust know what doing sledge hammer
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes won argue that the scsi standard makes for good well implimented data highway but still want know why intrinsically better than ide isa bus when comes multi tasking when managing data from single scsi hard drive have been following this thread and figured throw two cents the amiga zorro bus comparable with the isa bus mhz the amiga has had pre emptative multi tasking since and can operate with ram scsi used almost exclusively these systems scsi controller that transfers data dma allows the cpu request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves memory controller that allows reselection can operate even better with multiple devices this espically true with scsi tape units for example when rewinding formatting tape the command issued the controller and the bus released allow access other devices the bus this greatly increases productivity least something else while backing your hard drive which happens what doing while reading this group its long story but still use ide except for the cdrom which thanks scsi can move between both machines and when scsi better standardized and supported the ibm clone machines plan completely get rid ide wayne summer amiga simply the best palm bay wayne amtower spacecoast org quote the week don hate microsoft because because they are microsoft though hate them because their products are lame found ibm misc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	toshiba rom any problems article apr serval net wsu edu msmith beta tricity wsu edu mark smith writes once while you have put good word for something that works well have had problems with toshiba works very well with dos and for you don need load any special drivers the installation will detect that toshiba drive and you are done btw also very fast carlos rimola sarti email rimola csisdn com connective strategies inc car btr com isdn pri connectivity phone
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article wayne amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn mike schwartz michael smith writes article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes won argue that the scsi standard makes for good well implimented data highway but still want know why intrinsically better than ide isa bus when comes multi tasking when managing data from single scsi hard drive have been following this thread and figured throw two cents the amiga zorro bus comparable with the isa bus mhz except for the fact that superior just about every way the isa bus the amiga has had pre emptative multi tasking since and can operate with ram scsi used almost exclusively these systems except for the new systems that now ship only with ide controllers toodlepip marc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with olivetti floppy are trying connect olivetti floppy drive the second drive panasonic machine seems sort talk gets spinning and stepping but gives disk not ready error there are two jumpers which seem work best open position dip switch and position dip switch don know how set the dip switches and think that may the problem any information advice other than junk the stupid thing would most appreciated thanks email reply preferred jdresser tymnet com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article wayne amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn mike schwartz michael smith writes but still want know why intrinsically better than ide isa bus when comes multi tasking when managing data from single scsi hard drive scsi controller that transfers data dma allows the cpu request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves memory ide also uses dma techniques believe floppy controller also uses dma and most boards also use dma dma big deal and has nothing directly with scsi for example when rewinding formatting tape the command issued the controller and the bus released allow access other devices the bus this greatly increases productivity least something else while backing your hard drive which happens what doing while reading this group you can thank your software for that dos had few more brains could format floppies etc while you were doing something else the hardware will support but dos least won again this has nothing with scsi its long story but still use ide except for the cdrom which thanks scsi can move between both machines and when scsi better standardized and supported the ibm clone machines plan completely get rid ide and you stick with dos you wonder why you can multitask again ask why can unix type all the miraculous things with ide harddrive that can with single scsi hard drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	junior usable fiance has junior and wants upgrade full does anyone know could use the monitor came with new machine heard mcga ega but not sure which also does use cards can use the drive controller floppy etc thanks for the help bryan bryan welch amateur radio sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer all opinion everything there
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	baud spirit modem world want buy spirit data fax modem made have anyone heard about using what performance stable not please give some advice addition heard news from local distributor that new baud ccitt rom the distributor said will the new ccitt standard for this modem will produced the end this year after replaced the old rom this rom this spirit can transfer data baud without any hardware alternation this new true and possible would the telephone line really able transfer such high speed please give some advice last can anyone tell how contact with the central dealer quickcomm inc not sure whether not please leave mail thank you very much leung from hong kong university
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where buy pentium motherboard has anybody bought pentium motherboard you where can buy please send mail thank you advance pentium processors motherboards are not available the general public yet intel has released them companies such gateway and dell testing etc while mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with decision buying new system this week replace brain dead and could use some feedback couple systems looking anyone familiar with them the system that looks the most interesting the budget vlb tower for about delivered offers vlb ide mitsumi rom with software bundle media vision sound board ctx cache and the usual drives ports software since budget for system seems almost too good true which may mean too good true course among other things never seen review the budget systems their parent company micro smart the motherboard they are using the aetana any feedback would appreciated similar vein the second system considering midwest micro elite vesa tower with diamond viper midwest micro monitor one never seen reviewed anywhere familiar with the firm but not the product line and some idea their quality would abig benefit here well any other suggestions the price range would appreciated greatest needs are speed and graphics capabilities email response would greatly appreciated thanks the only purpose for which power can rightfully exercised over any member civilized community against his will prevent harm others his own good either physical moral not sufficient warrant john stuart mill rick adams adamsr ais org adamsr norwich bitnet anonymous users may send poly kbt rain com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes just bought quantum for mac home paid for haven seen ide drives cheaper friend mine just got maxtor meg ide drive for that million bytes mega bytes with the basic interface gets close meg sec transfer his does your figure include few hundred for scsi drivers since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes hundred for scsi drivers this sloppy people and dumb but that point faster this what all this about you get more performance for the money once again with the scsi spec list scsi with scsi controler chip synchronous range indeed asynchronous range slower scsi with scsi controller chip with burst bit note the increase speed the mac quadra uses this version scsi does exist some pcs use this set too scsi bit scsi mode with burst for those who want scsi but don want pay for the bit bit hardware mess with the scsi software controllers usable scsi devices with close bit scsi speeds scsi bit wide fast mode with burst scsi bit wide and fast with burst the other interfaces let dxb psuvm psu edu speak ide ranges from again synchronous and asynchronous modes with asynchronous much slower range esdi always although there are some non standard versions one problem the inconsitant use the term scsi articles and people its proper meaning the set scsi interfaces composed scsi and scsi look the inconsitant use scsi the below quote comments magazine april although scsi twice fast esdi this asynchronous scsi with scsi chip faster than ide this both asynchronous scsi with scsi chip and bit scsi read consitantly the quote should read asynchronous scsi with scsi chip although asynchronous scsi twice fast esdi one third the speed ide asynchronous scsi with scsi chip bit scsi although scsi with scsi chip and bit scsi are eight times fast esdi faster than ide note the nonuse scsi itself this eliminates ambaguity scsi drivers are somewhat reasonable while bit and bit scsi drivers are very expansive bit scsi can use scsi drivers with little speed degridation the mac quadra does exactly this are continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi scsi scsi over all scsi and scsi does make difference
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	junior usable article apr sernews raleigh ibm com europa tomcat raleigh ibm com welch bryan writes fiance has junior and wants upgrade full does anyone know could use the monitor came with new machine heard mcga ega but not sure which also does use cards can use the drive controller floppy etc the only things you able salvage from the junior are the floppy drives and monitor the floppies are and the monitor cga but you will need adaptor cable use the junior does not use standard cards unless you really strapped for cash you should just junk the thing and buy new stuff dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf utexas edu dcoleman utxvms utexas edu the university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes hundred for scsi drivers this sloppy people and dumb what group this this not mac group once again with the scsi spec list why the spec list again are talking scsi not mac unix box and are talking isa bus possibly eisa vlb this isin comp periphs scsi tell what the performance figures are with single scsi drive with isa eisa vlb bus theoretical performance figures are not relevant this group this debate sure that there are some platforms out there that can handle the megs sec scsi xyz wide fast but the isin one them are continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi scsi scsi over all scsi and scsi does make difference well maybe the scsi design people had their act together than maybe all would have built scsi ports now
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	network have heard that there something called network that allows two networked joining their serial ports does someone out there know anything about this would greatly appreciate mail this thanks tschewe first etc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	buslogic questions article tigerc netcom com tiger netcom com tiger zhao writes goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes can anyone tell this card works with the march beta believe since the buslogic cards have proven very reliable the buslogic cards have driver that does work with the march beta support for the buslogic cards not included with any longer you wish install the beta from the rom you will need rem out the adaptec device drivers they have nasty tendency crash the buslogic cards when attempts use them thanks adaptec you add the buslogic drivers the config sys the rom boot disk and rem out the adaptec drivers then you install the whole half the beta and won work ibm nicely copies the adaptec drivers once again thanks ibm rem out the adaptec drivers once more and reboot you have everything the right order will work things are pretty smooth through the rest the installation except will try install the adaptec scsi drivers once again the end you are off more rem statements and more fun the comes with drivers and costs the same the adaptec cards that not come with drivers the dos drivers work great this card can easily configured work with different sets ports and you can use multiple host adapters one machine you get new card will also able support drives under dos hope this helps dan dan galpin galpin cats ucsc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	data path width from bits but speed less then double evolution data path width has been doubled from bits but the speed data processing has not increased same rate the question why what relationship bettween data path width and data processing speed thanks advance for the input robert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	address interliving what address interliving and memmory modules interliving thanks advance for the info robert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how search for bad memory chips article cat uucp david cat uucp dave writes came upon this idea would like share with everyone check for bad memory chips create boot disk with emm himem sys and ramdrive sys the config autoexec bat boot the create ram drive large possible use disk repair utility use ndd run the ram drive yes will run its only device driver run passes they very quick your machine fails there definate bad memory chip your machine passes there conflict with programs you are loading memory interesting idea but the worst case data patterns developed test magnetic media are totally different than the patterns used detect common faults memory chips bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	buslogic questions beta support for the buslogic cards not included with any longer why not this rather disappointing you wish install the beta from the rom you will need rem out the adaptec device drivers they have nasty tendency crash the buslogic cards when attempts use them thanks adaptec yep that cause the latest and presumably all future adaptec drivers look for the string adaptec something that effect the cards bios
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	seagate ide jumper question since the losers that sold the hard disk for computer are generous need the info set this drive from master slave any help would greatly appreciated please reply via mail incidentally avoid purchasing computer from acs endicott jeff four out five electrons prefer holes for their mutual annhiliation needs boycott sierra ignore anybody who purports serious windows user support new makers hardware and software buy canadian music quit smoking take running synthesis the cga audio jks ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simms and sipps needed misc entrepreneurs misc wanted pnw forsale ibm seattle forsale forsale misc forsale misc forsale computers misc forsale computers clone misc forsale omputers other distribution world from yuri atmos washington edu reply yuri atmos washington edu organization subject simms and sipps needed keywords need simms and sipps but price should around piece waiting for offer yuri yulaev ave seattle home work fax internet yuri atmos washington edu uucp beaver atmos washington edu yuri
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith write article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes hundred for scsi drivers this sloppy people and dumb what group this this not mac group nice you delete both your responce and the item that prompted whit just bought quantum for mac home paid for haven seen ide drives cheaper which you responded friend mine just got maxtor meg ide drive for that million bytes mega bytes with the basic interface gets close meg sec transfer his does your figure include few hundred for scsi drivers which correctly pointed out the following since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes hundred for scsi drivers this sloppy people and dumb said this sloppy and dumb you should resounded discounting the mac not giving maxtor meg ide drive for example giving example you give the implied consent that for mac info included the scsi discusion once again with the scsi spec list why the spec list again are talking scsi not mac unix box and are talking isa bus possibly eisa vlb will this you can understand reguardless whether mac scsi and scsi are different from each other asynchronous and synchronous scsi all these have different speeds and costs lumping them all together scsi dumb and sloppy take again the quote later example the problem the world the spec list was that you knew where the numbers were coming from the article shows the article correct staments about scsi but not consitant this isin comp periphs scsi with the way this thread has gone how you tell tell what the performance figures are with single scsi drive with isa eisa vlb bus already gave them you keep deleting them here are the specs everybody again with some added info scsi scsi controler chip asynchronous range synchronous range both common the world difference mainly software not hardware scsi scsi controller chip also called scsi bit with burst this advertised scsi byte for the and these speeds not the mac the have not seen the following for either the mac the scsi bit wide fast mode with burst scsi bit wide and fast with burst the other interfaces let dxb psuvm psu edu speak ide ranges from asynchronous range infered from byte synchronous range esdi always although there are some non standard versions wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes theoretical performance figures are not relevant this group this debate sure that there are some platforms out there that can handle the megs sec scsi xyz wide fast but the isin one them note that also give the average through put for scsi which holds true mac ibm clone with the correct hardware and software and since adversizements are using theoretical performance figures why cannot are continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi scsi scsi over all scsi and scsi does make difference well maybe the scsi design people had their act together than maybe all would have built scsi ports now with articles like the following obvious that the problem not with scsi but with the people who report like you look the inconsitant use scsi the below quote comments although scsi twice fast esdi this asynchronous scsi with scsi chip faster than ide this both asynchronous scsi with scsi chip and bit scsi magazine april the article confused not scsi the term mess from inconsitant use not because the interface itself mess scsi means the set scsi interfaces composed scsi and scsi not scsi some people want use read consitantly the quote should read asynchronous scsi with scsi chip although asynchronous scsi twice fast esdi one third the speed ide asynchronous scsi with scsi chip bit scsi although scsi with scsi chip and bit scsi are eight times fast esdi faster than ide note the nonuse scsi itself this eliminates ambaguity are continue this thread state clearly which scsi you are talking about scsi scsi scsi over all scsi and scsi lumping everything into scsi scsi sloppy wrong and dumb inconsitant scsi and scsi usage also problem clean now have mess like svga was several years ago because everybody and his uncle slapped scsa their own monitor inteface scsi standarized unlike svga was years ago except terminaology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help freezes perry egelmeers perry wswiop win tue wrote ladanyi cornell edu szlo lada nyi writes problem occasionaly the machine freezes least that what thought but recently discovered that the machine works just the keyboard freezes and the clock drops down from turbo mhz standard mhz mode perhaps you hit the control try know doesn explain the clock rate drop had the same problem our company changed the keyboard bios and after that everything went fine our dealer told that some boards that series have defect kbd bios michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital info needed holly maccs mcmaster wrote western digital also has three sets pins the back using with another hard drive well and the settings for the jumpers were written right the circuit board the drive the jumper used the other drive conner xxx jumper set drive alone drive master drive slave michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	com ports modem mouse conflict really phil hunt phil howtek com wrote kind new the stuff machine has serial ports com and and share same irqs you mean can plug mouse into com and modem into com and expect both work but some coherent etc are able drive one the ports polled mode without using the irq your example after accessing the modem the mouse won work until you reboot because the irq used the modem answer should change irq for com ports different and does really matter which irq set the ports too yes you can change the irq for com but depends your other hardware com uses irq com irq you have only one printerport irq you can change com irq normally printer for com you can assign irq its free far know other irq can used until your card bit and caould access irq michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa bus pin question diamond speedstar today recieved warranty replacement for diamond speedstar the card noticed few changes mostly there new jumper labeled the card revision detective work has shown that this jumper simply connects disconnects the bale line the pin part the isa bus the question have simple those people who own this revision the speedstar what does the manual claim that this jumper does anyone with isa reference what the function the bale line related note are there any ftp sites which contain descriptive reference the isa bus motherboard manual has simple pin signal name chart but that douglas douglas pokorny drp camelot bradley edu major geisert hall resident conveniently located the bradley university armpit illinois peoria
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	int for joysticks slow inn names nerdc ufl edu lioness oak circa ufl edu writes using int read joystick and hideously slow something like cpu time being spent reading the joystick and this program that does nothing but printf and joyread you only read print then there reason for the joystick stuff not take the time even efficient the problem that lot programs trap int like smartdrv and slow hell interface can read the joystick port reasonably safe fashion via polling and that isn platform clockspeed specific the truth that int joystick reading slow read directly from the hardware port note that doing exposes you intermittent disturbance from interrupts you may want read say twice row and keep the lower results don just turn interrupts off may prove detrimental the health any high speed comms and other devices here example how this joy example how read joystick port polling the hardware port directly uses inp outp for byte port access will timeout when int count counts zero this sample reads one port presented and the comments you can read both once merging the two but will time out when either joystick not connected there need optimize this routine since runs for long the joystick circuitry needs written eyal lebedinsky eyal ise canberra edu include stdio include stdlib include conio extern int readjoy int int int int define joyport define xjoy for joystick use define yjoy for joystick use define xymask xjoy yjoy define but for joystick use define but for joystick use int returns readjoy int int int int register int count register char temp joy temp char xymask count outp joyport set trigger temp joy char inp joyport temp xjoy count temp yjoy count while count temp joy xymask joy but joy but return count this main for demonstration int main int printf hit any key exit while kbhit readjoy printf
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	looking for large mono color vga monitor looking for monitor larger that could with and card guess would prefere and mono later becuase lower price please email the brand model condition and asking price please include this message for reference alavi ssa unity ncsu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi rom drivers fix for qemm just let all you faithful mitsumi rom owners ever notice qemm can load you rom driver high ain bitch well you can call quarterdeck bbs and get hold the new drivers that can loaded high sorry don have their tested them out and the seem work great small nose loose girls nipples iczer curls gerard pinzone gpinzone tasha poly edu join the eca wehrmacht kill
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	speedway any good anybody use speedway out there good they say hate waiting around for finish loading the next level and the such how much memory does eat small nose loose girls nipples iczer curls gerard pinzone gpinzone tasha poly edu join the eca wehrmacht kill
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	leading edge computer buy saw the following computer store and wanted know this good computer does someone see something wrong with also would like switch the motherboard later when this computer becomes too slow does anyone know this possible with leading edge computer will difficult find motherboard that will fit this computer any help will greatly appreciated leading edge model intel mhz cpu supports intel overdrive clock doubling processors what this upgradable ram upgradable internal cache disk drives hard drive vga video resolution video ram colors available bit isa expansion slots one local bus socket bit isa compatible drive bays external one pin centronics type parallel port serial ports pin one pin analog video connector one compatible mouse port watt power supply key keyboard and mouse included software includes windows dos microsoft works for windows the store wants without monitor for this good price thanks nicole bell temple university philly mail address astro ocis temple edu prodigy jpkn you not part the solution you part the precipitate steven wright
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	more adaptec problems okay here configuration gateway micronics isa ram ide drive ide drive adaptec scsi controller with scsi bios enabled seagate scsi drive alrighty when boot get the adaptec bios message but says something like drive installed drive installed adaptec scsi bios not installed and can get the seagate drive into phoenixbios setup remove the entry for drive and boom can access the seagate there way get two ide drives and the seagate the same time have aspi dos sys but just hangs the system brian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from drive glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote have drive drive how can make the system boot from drive optimally the computer would able boot from either checking them order for bootable disk but have switch cables around and simply switch the drives that can boot disks that also boot won the trick for thanks davebo had the same issue plague for months our gateway finally got tired permanently interchanged the drives the only reason didn the first place was because had several bootable and some based install disks which expected the drive order all new software and upgrades and the number stupid install programs that can handle alternate drive are declining with time the ones had are now upgraded and for the bootable just cut replacements switching the drives not option you might able wire drive switch your computer chasis haven tried but think would work long wired carefully did this use relay radio shack pdt instead huge switch this way the relay breaks drives will still work works fine but you may still need change the cmos before the drive switch will work correctly for some programs roger pao gordius bagdad mts rpao rpao mts mivj
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumper settings for microscience try one more time with this one anyone out there has any information microscience hard drives and how set the jumpers and where they are for master slave configurations will gladly accept any info have sitting room collecting dust just waiting for install huge applications thanks advance and yes regulary check the ide harddisk spec that posted here adam cheal rick ubc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	leading edge computer buy article apr cronkite ocis temple edu astro ocis temple edu cis sec spr writes saw the following computer store and wanted know this good computer does someone see something wrong with also would like stuff deleted leading edge model intel mhz cpu supports intel overdrive clock doubling processors what this upgradable ram upgradable internal cache disk drives hard drive vga video resolution video ram colors available bit isa expansion slots one local bus socket bit isa compatible drive bays external one pin centronics type parallel port serial ports pin one pin analog video connector one compatible mouse port watt power supply key keyboard and mouse included software includes windows dos microsoft works for windows the store wants without monitor for this good price thanks recently bought leading edge mini tower case and everything works fine leading edge seems decent brand and what not would tend say that decent deal the only things you might want wary about that computer has back plane mounted motherboard the motherboard itself card that can plugged backplane some people don like these configurations the second thing that whoever set computer the factory didn really know what they were doing the installed windows video driver didn even take advantage the svga card monitor look forward configuring the system optimally yourself anyone have coat hanger brain itches impster umcc ais org was turnip would revered and charles budensiek worshipped like would deserve ask you want
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	esdi with ide yes should possible article apr monu monash edu els fawlty eng monash edu chow writes article qegfd dqi wsinis info win tue monty wsinis info win tue guido leenders writes possible use esdi controller with hdd together with ide harddisk controller one isa system read stuff about secondary controllers does this trick work thanx advance guido monty win tue have the same question guido possible use the esdi drive master and the ide drive the slave can definitily say that you can use rll master and ide slave have just upgraded machine with ide and custom controller mdl extended ide controller while maintaining rll wren master drive the trick the controller which supports ide drives while coexisting with existing controllers mfm rll esdi scsi according the documentation should work with esdi and can assure you works with rll bruce powell email bss brucep seqeb gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	more adaptec problems lioness maple circa ufl edu wrote okay here configuration gateway micronics isa ram ide drive ide drive adaptec scsi controller with scsi bios enabled seagate scsi drive alrighty when boot get the adaptec bios message but says something like drive installed drive installed adaptec scsi bios not installed and can get the seagate drive into phoenixbios setup remove the entry for drive and boom can access the seagate there way get two ide drives and the seagate the same time have aspi dos sys but just hangs the system brian there simple answer memory serves the scsi bios will only work the first second drive any built drives ide are installed first and then when the scsi bios runs will try install the next drive but there are already two drives then can the solution simple use the aspi dos device driver and disable the scsi bios useless your case works like champ have seen similar situation before good luck gordon lang
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	grayscale displays quick look through the computer shopper gave the following companies that sell monochrome monitors for less than compatible cornerstone technology digital technology hardware that fits ibm ikegami image systems nanao radius ran ger technologies sampo samsung sigma designs most these are single scan monitors which are useless for most users posted requests for information other newsgroups which were mostly fruitless but have managed track down two multisync grayscal monitors the range one and one still looking into and will post the results when get more info looking into group purchase well aniel thumim dthumim mit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tseng labs video card problem have tseng labs video card that gives problems when anything super vga mode checkit reports video page frame address error page frame what does this mean and how can could this fixed the card says thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	parallel port can anybody please help with information the use the directional printer port have successfully used one toshiba laptop enabling bit port and controlling bit port for the direction data flow for output for input the same code does not work desktop machine have heard that might have use bit port however this also does not work for parallel port using one those ide super cards and have been running tape backup unit off via parallel scsi converter pretty sure that the printer port directional any information would greatly appreasiated please post reply here email internet rick cabsav vut edu thanks richard muratti origin custom programming bbs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm teac hello already tried our national news group without success tried replace friend original ibm floppy disk his with normal teac drive already identified the power supply pins and shorted pin switch and inserted pullup resistors pins and the computer doesn complain about missing but the light stays all the time the drive spins when insert disk but can access the teac works fine normal are there any points missed thank you volkmar volkmar grote stollmann
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted isa mouse port with high interrupt with sound card interrupt two serial ports one for modem one for miracle piano and printer port have run out low interrupts what would like mouse port with interrupt which ever interrupt the mouse port uses isa computer called technical support microsoft logitech ati checked what interrupts the mouse port the ati video cards can use and they all said the only interrupts possible these cards was ones lower than does anyone know any board for isa bus which will allow mouse port even serial port with high interrupts loran yourk lyourk ihlpm att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can write floppy article qndvd jhn usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu andy nicola writes previous article limagen hpwala wal com says all you experts need answer quick machine floppy unable write formated disk machine claims that disk write protected but not note read with problem please mail post the disk not type disk with the extra hole the case opposite the normal write protect hole the drive will not write the disk you can punch similar hole with whatever handy buy small device square hole puncher for about see the back pages computer shopper magazine for brief make the hole any way you can writing andy nicola course you should able write disk without making any holes stig
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	compaq configuration help all compaq owners friend mine has compaq portable iii and has lost all the manuals and diskettes please help him getting the machine equipment definition cmos memory configuration right the machine says that some bytes are still incorrectly set seems that compaq has some bytes defined not like the ibm compatible machines you have compaq certainly has diagnostics diskette with and this needed can reach quickly any compaq dealers here possible please email documentation some its configuration software heikki haldre mail hhaldre sune stacken kth hhaldre park tartu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	alr proveisa anyone has any experience with the alr proveisa system would interested hear your impressions and alr general thank you mark winqwk mark seltzer ravina cres toronto ont canada rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted isa mouse port with high interrupt lyourk cbnewsc att com loran yourk writes with sound card interrupt two serial ports one for modem one for miracle piano and printer port have run out low interrupts what would like mouse port with interrupt which ever interrupt the mouse port uses isa computer called technical support microsoft logitech ati checked what interrupts the mouse port the ati video cards can use and they all said the only interrupts possible these cards was ones lower than does anyone know any board for isa bus which will allow mouse port even serial port with high interrupts try putting one the irqs for your com ports onto irq the hardware will automagically wrap irq irq class machines anything with high irqs this what doing set right now got com irq really irq address this way software com irq soundblaster irq lpt irq and ati busmouse port one the interrupts between works just great you need even more there text file floating around somewhere that details how hack any serial card and probably any others work the higher irqs basically involves cutting the trace the low irq and running wire over the high irq pin the bit expansion bus will best put the modem com port onto irq this will the first irq serviced the system giving the modem better response especially handy under multitaskers like which running with problems justin jdolske andy bgsu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa limit rpao mts mivj writes article mts mivj marka ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes then the writer claims that glitches can occur systems with over because that limit that part don understand because the ram right the motherboard the cpu should have problems talking with the ram can anybody explain this the floppy served dma the motherboard and original dma controller can reach more than the first the address space the isa bus joerg
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted subject says all please email soon skcgoh tartarus uwa edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	swap boot drive have machine with drive and drive want swap them drive what have tia david todd department psychology university massachusetts amherst usa phone david todd psych umass edu fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted advice comments building the next few months intending build system for remote monitoring would welcome any comments advice you may have the choice motherboard hdds and boards recommendations for good companies selling these would big help many thanks peter green peter green tel fax janet prg mcc nessie internet prg nessie mcc include std disclaimers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner specs can anybody send conner harddisk specifications has cyl and but more intrested its time out values precomp etc heikki haldre internet hhaldre sune stacken kth
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hint vlb isa eisa motherboard looking buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good bad any information would helpful thanks brian schaufenbuel brian schaufenbuel there art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that draining money from the pockets the ames people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how detect mouse hardware level all writting program that checks computer for its configuration going run everytime computer boots our campus network actually already running just not getting all the info want yet anyway want check for mouse already check for mouse driver using the code microsoft mouse book but there guarantee that the driver loaded when program runs that they ever load the driver since interested what hardware attached the machine how detect mouse attached know can done because the mouse driver can thanks advance andy andy berkvam few are wholly dead wisconsin stevens point blow dead man embers cleveland freenet and live flame will start internet aberkvam spu uwsp edu robert graves
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article ucdavis edu rocky ucdavis edu the great randalli writes can anyone explain fairly simple terms why get might need scsi controler rather than ide will performance suffer that much for drive don have tape drive rom any help would appreciated richard randall hamlet ucdavis edu there way which multi tasking computer actually gives you more cpu power then you had before and that with overlap with overlap your cpu can continue think while disk operations are underway whereas without overlap your cpu sits idly waiting for each disk operation finish and disk operations take eternity compared fast cpu when you got multi tasking you want increase performance increasing the amount overlapping you one way with dma bus mastering either these make possible for devices move their data into and out memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative for the cpu move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering ide however defined the standard interface created for the ibm which requires the cpu move all the data bytes with dma richard krehbiel richk grebyn com will for until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article kvinnndk dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes point view why does scsi have advantage when comes multi tasking data data and could anywhere the drive can scsi find faster can get off the drive and into the computer faster does have better cache system thought scsi was good managing data bus when multiple devices are attached are only talking about single drive explain why scsi inherently faster managing data from hard drive the adaptec series use bus mastering this means that the cpu doesn sit waiting for data bytes can off and other computing you have advanced multi tasking that dos just sits and waits anyway ide integrated device electronics currently the most common standard and mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive asynchronous transfer max why don you start with the spec sheet the isa bus first you can quote scsi specs till you blue the face but they exceed the isa bus capability then what the point who says ide limited megs sec what about vlb ide does anyone know how they perform why don you start with the spec sheet the isa bus first ide was designed plug into isa virtually unaided essence ide isa ribbon cable therefore specs are the same isa mhz clock bit width sec this why concluded that ide bus waste fast slot the card job would slow the bus transactions isa speed heck that what isa slots just use one those instead richard krehbiel richk grebyn com will for until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article hcx ssd csd harris com marka hcx ssd csd harris com mark ashley writes first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may longer sufficient for limit seen listing seagate ide hard drive second rumor microsoft recognizes the the importance scsi and will support soon just not sure dos win windows already supports scsi variety adapters for disk tape and rom does richard krehbiel richk grebyn com will for until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article wayne amtower spacecoast org wayne amtower spacecoast orgx newssoftware grn mike schwartz michael smith writes but still want know why intrinsically better than ide isa bus when comes multi tasking when managing data from single scsi hard drive scsi controller that transfers data dma allows the cpu request data from the hard drive and continue working while the controller gets the data and moves memory ide also uses dma techniques believe floppy controller also uses dma and most boards also use dma dma big deal and has nothing directly with scsi ide does not dma this because like hard disk interface the controller moves sector some buffer memory the controller card then the cpu moves the data from the buffer main memory where needed ide doesn work this way then not compatible heck ide used dma then you hear all kinds complaints about isa bus systems with more than ram not working with their ide drives the dma addressing limit the isa bus and ide did dma there would trouble btw there are dma enabling signals the ide cable spec but the last report heard was that they are never implemented because would require different kind ide adapter and different drivers richard krehbiel richk grebyn com will for until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	nec printer question just picked second hand color option for the nec pin dot matrix printer alas there were installation instructions totally confused why won have remove the actaual print head seems almost fit but not quite please any info would most appreciated jon chopin udel edu for cents eutsch pay dollar
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from drive article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote have drive drive how can make the system boot from drive intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted have ami bios have poked around the bios but haven tried this but somewhere says boot would assume that you could probably slip althoug haven tried and don mess with your cmos unless you know what your doing hate burst your bubble but you cannot slip that particular ami bios setting that setting only allows you set the boot order the floppy with respect the primary check first then check then gordon lang mohammad khan khan nova gmi edu after july please send mail mkhan nyx edu regards paul yee yee nimios eng mcmaster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner question what need configure this drive slave model please reply via mail thanks jeff four out five electrons prefer holes for their mutual annhiliation needs boycott sierra ignore anybody who purports serious windows user support new makers hardware and software buy canadian music quit smoking take running synthesis the cga audio jks ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	perfect mag monitors article apr brtph bnr adcock bnr doug adcock writes been intently following the mag thread while waiting for mine arrive the mail there seems lot complaints about minor alignment problems with the one article contained comment that the owner called the factory and was told that his screen rotation was within spec that figure for image rotation would seem little high nec the specs call for greater than well monitor arrived last night and sure enough has very noticable barrel distortion not dramatic but there and especially noticable when the image doesn fill the entire screen the fact that worse the right side doesn help matters what trying find out these minor imperfections are the norm are most their monitors perfect don want send back and get one with the same even worse problem does the factory consider this kind thing normal and ship their monitors with less than perfect alignment can speak for mag innovision but far nec concerned they are adjusted factory spec before leaving the central usa distribution point for the eastern canadian market now here the key nec knows that the monitors adjustments are very sensitive shipping over distances with all the bumps rough handling and such and therefore expect and least theory require that the local distributor not dealer have adjusted the local service centre bull information systems toronto before sale this the correct and probably only way having any chance receiving perfect monitor the definition perfect seems depend how picky one case quite are other netters just living with these kind imperfections for one was not willing accept what considered substandard monitor and after two months wrangling and direct contact with nec finally received satisfactorily adjusted monitor not perfect imho but major improvement over what the dealer and distributor were trying convince was normal the short answer don accept these imperfections normal because for the premium one pays for the larger screen monitors one has right expect higher quality and you persistent you receive comments and opinions are mine not bnr doug adcock adcock bnr bell northern research research triangle park regards paul yee yee nimios eng mcmaster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrading modem have old tandon type modem that all the info have apart from the fact that black does anyone have any info about this modem upgrading reply mail please cdw dcs chris mail cdw dcs walton cplab tel weekends write romero place edinburgh finagle fourth law once job fouled anything done improve only makes worse chris mail cdw dcs walton cplab tel weekends write romero place edinburgh
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes stuff about the connection between ide and ida deleated mhz clock bit width sec ide speed come from ida where does the sighted for ide come from scsi not complex just the way the industry uses and talks about there are three key differences scsi the controller chip the port and the software that let look scsi from this stand point scsi asynchronous and synchronous modes software scsi driver only asynchronous slower then synchronous mode only synchronous speeds can reached most scsi divices with rewrite the software driver the case for the mac quadra scsi bit this the main source for the confusion this differs from scsi only the controler chip most machines the mac and some pcs this called fast scsi because uses scsi ports and software drivers and can produce scsi speeds through scsi inspite this even the slower asynchronous mode average speed asynchronous scsi mode with see both quadras and higher end pcs synchronous mode just allows higher burst rate scsi bit two versions wide fast wide scsi requires two things over bit scsi scsi software driver and wide scsi port the machine and the external device fast scsi also requires two things over bit scsi scsi driver software and that the recieving devise support bit fast scsi speed both the same with burst scsi bit also know wide and fast scsi over bit scsi this requires scsi driver software wide scsi port and that the recieving devices also have bit mode scsi chip expected this very expencive speed with bursts said simple seven versions scsi seperated software the controler chip and the port standarize the software and drops only five versions scsi seperate only hardware the chip and the port
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner info please looking for information about this drive switch settings geometry etc conner please reply via mail many thanks advance nelson nsl doe carleton
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pentium previous article rrn cwru edu robert novitskey says just qestion for all you out there will the upcoming pentium systems compatible with current simms and vlb cards any info would helpful would just like know before plunk new hardware thanks bob well all depends the motherboard implimentation sure someone will make vlb motherboard that takes simms and uses pentium processor also sure that there will some motherboards that won
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	beyond trident and lots more have few enquiries about and compatibles general some software others hardware orientated probably the wrong newsgroup everyone claims anyway does any one happen have the board jumper details for trident svga graphics card even what the dip switches the end mine already works fine albeit slow and after having blown monitor found out which switch controlled the interlace non interlace facility but curious why there are dip switches the card with apparantly little use secondly does anyone know why commodore had crazed their design the motherboard with respect the ram can anyone supply pin details for the expansion ports for bit even sample circuit cause irq when button pressed yeah know its piece cake lazy software wise anyone care divulge some tips accessing expanded ram from program written turbo for instance using farcoreleft and coreleft return only memory available from the base regardless combinations emm etc etc what want able use the ram above and beyond the boundary not certain whether farmalloc new actually uses anyway but suspect not also what half brained wit created dos not entrant follow does anyone have any comments about the use dos calls from within dos interrupt will changing the stack size entry use two articles read the subject have given conflicting views does anyone have any views writing direct screen memory terms portability many thanks gotta bars closing soon cheers ian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help hand scanners wanted fellow netters the market for hand scanner however don know anyone who has one have eye two choices dexxa this scanner available wal mart for includes grayworks software and provides dpi and grayscales think the ocr software catchword available through mail order for about also mustek gray artist for windows this scanner offers grayscales according cad graphics and dpi available for mail order and comes with perceive ocr and picture publisher also looking genius hand scanner from cad graphics basically the same the mustek scanner except for the resolution dpi and price basically would like recommendations which buy have heard that logitech makes the best and manufactures dexxa scanners but which one the best buy would dpi really helpful output would better than laserjet iii canon leaning toward the mustek because offers the most features and the middle terms prices which should buy you have hand scanner please let know whether not you would recommend also you know another scanner within the price range under that would better deal please mail any and all help would greatly appreciated kevin harter
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from drive article apr mcshub dcss mcmaster yee nimios eng mcmaster paul yee writes article khan nova khan nova gmi edu mohammad razi khan writes glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes david weisberger djweisbe unix amherst edu wrote have drive drive how can make the system boot from drive intermediate reply suggesting cable switch deleted heard boot zip could exactly what you wanted without touching anything check out with archie
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsubishi hard drive help have new mitsubishi hard drive rll mfm that has been storage and will not format suspected that the switch settings may have been moved the movement the drive from one place another does anyone have the switch settings for this drive has with switches and has switches the one that selects the drive number you have info this drive know number can call configure please please let know email has cyl heads and think type thanks advance chuck browning charles browning browning galois nscf org university browning moe coe uga edu augusta georgia cbrowni eis calstate edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors mreamy rock concert net michael reamy support writes and they too said that the nanao was the best monitor get you had the money but they also said that the mitsubishi diamond pro the next best choice and that has superb picture quality this monitor can had for around has anyone actually seen any these responsible for choosing standard components company and part review got the viewsonic mitsubishi and nanao picked the even though costs more than the other two choices because has the best clarity and text not fuzzy all the viewsonic the worst the mitsubishi much better but the nanao blows both them out the water don understand why the nanao much better since one would think that the mitsubishi with trinitron tube would better can only imagine that the nanao must incredible beter than the michael reamy mreamy rock concert net the light the end the tunnel may oncoming dragon one the monitors reviewed for the june issue windows magazine was the mitsubishi also reviewed new nanao the which has just been released last year for the may issue windows reviewed several monitors including the nanao there question that the nanao monitors are the best available this year just they were last year the difference between ranking the best windows and the ranking windows sources due mainly difference the testing criteria and the scoring used different tests than they did and scored differently there nothing wrong with the mitsubishi and scored very highly tests but was few points shy perfect incidentally one the things everyone should when they reading reviews any product whether monitors mice read the criteria and methodology carefully unless you know how the product testing was done and what the scores are based you can possibly know what they really mean just seeing that rank monitor differently from windows sources meaningless without knowing how did the ranking likewise impossible tell whether monitor will meet your needs unless you know how did the testing after all some what may not apply you likewise some what may apply more closely one review than another you can always tell anything from reading the words commentary write you don also understand the scoring wayne rash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitor with rgb sync vga scanlonm rimail interlan com michael scanlon writes don know this obvious question but can any the current batch windows accelerator cards diamond etc used drive monitor which has rgb and horizontal and vertical sync bnc jacks altogether connectors out the back might able get ahold raster technologies monitor cheap and was wondering was possible connect via adapter rgb vga gateway would need different drivers etc thanks mike scanlon please reply scanlon interlan com you need monitor cable that has vga connector one end and five bnc connectors the other bought one from nanao when bought the nanao monitor use which also has five bnc connectors check with computer store that sells good monitors quite few companies use that setup
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tape backup question article apr sol ctr columbia edu jerry msi com jerry shekhel writes hello folks have archive internal qic tape drive which pretty comparable the colorado jumbo since have two floppy drives system using small card not accelerated made archive attach tape drive third floppy device the problem although the dos based qicstream software works just fine both the norton and central point backup programs for windows fail unless switch the machine non turbo speed using eisa since the dos software works can hardware problem can has anyone seen similar problems any solutions thanks advance yeah sounds typical windows makes all sorts extra demands hardware and therefore your machine can keep with things ever notice how when acessing the floppies windows everything else slows crawl imagine your backup and evertyhing else that running fights for cpu time and sometimes the backup program loses glad can even run medium speed with backup machine supposedly because have scsi machine which places extra demands the data bus don
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article qslfs access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes also reviewed new nanao the which has just been released what the difference between the and the new about buy gateway system and was going take the upgrade should get the instead mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	conner specs sune stacken kth hhaldre stacken kth heikki haldre writes can anybody send conner harddisk specifications has cyl and but more intrested its time out values precomp etc heikki haldre internet hhaldre sune stacken kth conner peripherals has number with touch tone voice response data bank giving all the info you call directory assisatnce and ask for the phone number conner peripherals you should get what you need dannyb panix com all the usual disclaimers apply whatever they may
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need what kinda battery hello the proud owner ibm without battery know hooks into jumper but need more info can replace what its voltage any suggestions for replacement where can get one please respond grisch uceng edu thanks george
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from drive nvvx mts mivj rpao mts mivj roger pao writes much discussion about switching and drives removed another albeit strange option using program like available via anonymous ftp many major sites fdformat also available via anonymous ftp that allows you format disks meg disks meg along with many many other formats you can diskcopy yes the broken messy dos diskcopy the disks onto disks vice versa use this techniques with non dos self booting game disks old tandy and works another program named teledisk shareware available many major bbs will also make the weird format disks provided you have fdformat installed some disks that won diskcopy properly can readily teledisk into the proper format least this software solution for hardware bios deficiency joseph zbiciak camelot bradley edu disclaimer you believe any this check your head nuke the whales
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rockwell chipset for any good have quick question regarding the rockwell chipset that come out relatively recently supports bis group iii fax and however heard there are bugs the chipset know someone that has zoom modem that uses the chipset and hasn had problem what the word the chipset this rom bug specific specific brand using the rockwell the rockwell chipset itself and the rockwell chipset what are the chances that buy one these modems using the rockwell chipset that the bug will affect rom change will fix compensate for the bug please send responses via email joe zbiciak cegt bradley edu camelot bradley edu joseph zbiciak camelot bradley edu disclaimer you believe any this check your head nuke the whales
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	shopping for new nec monitor well people can only recomend the non flat screen hype nonsense nec that have and plus has the advantage not having one those new flat screen tubes which are oversensitive and fragile and break often this heavy duty rugged set for those who insist well proven reliable technologies jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi first off with all these huge software packages and files that they produce ide may longer sufficient for limit micropolis seems have broken this limit they have ide meg and meg available greg greene ggg kepler unh edu mark ashley disclaimer opinions not harris marka gcx ssd csd harris com the lost los angelino
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	which high performance vlb video card article apr spartan brocku tmc spartan brocku tim ciceran writes magazine just did another review high end graphics accelerators for all around performance windows dos cad for ati graphics ultra pro they done two reviews the last three months and that card ranks editors choice both reviews for all around performance seems just can beat you should pick this issue mag april and check out for yourself windows the recent reviews have all shown that the cards are significantly faster doing windows than the ati card vga the recent reviews have all shown that the cards they looked are significantly slower doing vga than the ati card about the speed recall the big question for the orchid card each the cards tested far has had the vga orchid the only one know about don know about ami that uses the for vga that reportedly faster would like know whether the orchid card can vga fast the ati card would appear formidable competitor advertised prices are about the same for the two cards someone this group posted little while back that they were getting orchid card has that card arrived what the benchmarks look like also the ami based card real what does use for vga speed bob
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	adaptec acb what wright lims lerc nasa gov ted wright writes adaptec acb rev disk controller has come into hands with documentation this esdi controller mfm rll something else the bios dated that any help think esdi controller you need the doco can help you stefan stefan reck inet sreck rebox berlin berlin germany that all
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway telepath modem getting bis have had gateway telepath modem for about month now actually had one that wouldn connect anything matter what software used got new one sent this allows connect favorite news system with zero problems somewhat happier but still cannot connect favorite dos bbs with any kind reliability have success about calls not good would hope that the fact that this one can connect least one fave places means just need adjust what usually get fast stream garbage the modem response line the dial window sometimes will drop full screen mode first then get about screens garbage both cases the modem seems time out before connecting and drops carrier using default settings and getting this problem using the autoconfigure settings that gateway has supplied with copy qmodem atw and getting this problem they have refused help beyond this claiming must the bbs something like that not work modem connects this same place just fine using factory settings microcom anyone have any ideas next waco update ohio prison update bosnia update russian update abortion update and congressional update here snn the standoff news network all news all standoff all day daniel hartung dhartung chinet chinet com ask about rotaract
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	which high performance vlb video card article hcbfp zola esd sgi com blean rwb esd sgi com bob blean writes someone this group posted little while back that they were getting orchid card has that card arrived what the benchmarks look like the one got only does about text and vga mcga mode which almost identical the other based cards ati does about this weird since the orchid supposedly should much faster and was told someone that can almost since the vga chip covered the orchid label can really tell for sure uses chip but the spec sheet that comes with the board docs did say has meg dram and uses chip winmarks about mil slower than viper using standard palette btw anyone insterested trying sell diamond viper megs vram for friend for email interested too broke take myself also the ami based card real what does use for vga speed think available limited quantites idea what vga chip uses though very careful with oem boards though the orchid got for example only has readme file disk that serve documentation and conflicts the hell with vlb controller card maybe motherboard vlb stephen lau elec engineering univ hawaii using friend account while waiting for new grad account death synthesis gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	some more info about board one more thing add the orchid board vesa bios only able handle the meg dram board the viper however can utilize the meg vram board support vesa modes such mil and under dos stephen lau elec engineering univ hawaii don have own account until grad school starts autumn death synthesis gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info mouse port would someone please email the pinout for pin mini din mouse port trying make adapter for serial mouse and the dealer who knows what adapter works with the mouse bought doesn have stock have several different adapters but none them make sense based what sketchy information have about the port they have connections reserved pins bob nichols bell laboratories rnichols ihlpm att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article geh utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes yeah just read another newsgroup that the uses high quality trinitron tube than most monitors the sony for example and this where the extra cost comes from also where the high bandwidth comes from and the fantastic image and the large image size etc etc agree that the image sharp gets with these sony tubes however the monitors using these tubes the annoying black lines the top and bottom quarters the tube which are created due the wires holding the invar shadow mask are quite annoying after while that the only thing that making lean more favor the nec now also available the nec fge only difference accucolor any experiences opinions from people who have used the nec would appreciated since want get one right after exams are all done about week from now tony tony gerardis mcgill university computer science prefered account the sun the same relative way gerardis mcgill but you older however also available and shorter breath and one day tgerardi nyx edu closer death floyd gerardis musocs bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	quantum cache working the quantum lps supposed have cache the ide controller built into the card yet when dos dir command system the disk always accessed can hear the mechanical movement the heads why this happening strangely even when have smartdrive installed every dir command accesses the disk did somehow activate the cache this happening each two machines with lps drive will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	custom keys looking for company that can make custom keys for instance need key that says help main menu etc which are going use instead etc can anyone point company that does this also you have have special keyboard can just pop off the old keys and pop the new ones thanks for the help jeff swartz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article pisw mcgill gerardis mcgill the gif emporium writes stuff deleted while that the only thing that making lean more favor the nec now also available the nec fge only difference accucolor any experiences opinions from people who have used not only you lose accucolor you also had give non interlaced mode the wider mhz bandwidth and the mac and bnc inputs the personally not bothered all the two lines trinitron tube tony gerardis mcgill university computer science stephen lau elec engineering univ hawaii don have own account until grad school starts autumn death synthesis gus
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rockwell chipset for any good article camelot camelot bradley edu joe zbiciak writes what the word the chipset this rom bug specific specific brand using the rockwell the rockwell chipset itself there were assortment firmware problems but that pretty much expected with any fax modem talking with different fax modem which may have also been revised new pretty much oblivious any current firmware problems you have get from someone else however can tell you stay clear any board which uses the rockwell mpu opposed the dpu for internal implementation this because the mpu used speed buffering instead having interface without the interface the number interrupts are still the same and thus may get dropped under multitasking conditions like windows far know the speed buffering works for external modems used the internal serial port board hope this helps tom tom barrett tdbear engineer tom barrett amd com amd pcd ben white austin don take take hold don leave chance tasmin archer views are own and may not the same the company origin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors the mitsubishi also reviewed new nanao the which has just been released last year for the may issue windows reviewed you have the specs for this monitor what have they changed from the you know their going new soon thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cache micronics eisa vlb motherboard from article apr news indiana edu mohammad ansari alansari mango ucs indiana edu clip the process purchasing eisa bus computer clip the first ares and they use cache motherboard that the brand the motherboard with opti chip set the other micron formerly edge technology and they use the micronics eisa vlb motherboard clip would really appreciate any input this the micron machine the clear choice does anyone know anything positive negative about either company has anyone ever heard cache motherboards should with micron just because has the micronics motherboard etc thanks very much advance for any information mohammad ansari get back your vendors better yet the board manufactures and get some more info where made norton indexes yeah know bms suck but whats mother number slots and types esia and bit any ide scsi board how easy upgrade ram location and pins overdrive oscilator kits does have uart who bios these might make you feel better about either system but must agree that ares with days tech and year warranty encouraging terry clark tclark umaxc uiowa edu you want opinion you don pay enough for opinion
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	know anything about eisa read about the development eisa some time ago but dismissed light the intense interest vesa and pci however recently was disheartened hear that isa cannot address more than ram limit that too many will hit all too soon recall that eisa will support bit transfer among other enhancements there such standard being developed bing bing zinc cchem berkeley edu university california berkeley
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article richk apr gozer grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes can anyone explain fairly simple terms why get might need scsi controler rather than ide will performance suffer that much for drive don have tape drive rom any help would appreciated when you got multi tasking you want increase performance increasing the amount overlapping you one way with dma bus mastering either these make possible for devices move their data into and out memory without interrupting the cpu the alternative for the cpu move the data there are several scsi interface cards that allow dma and bus mastering how you bus mastering the isa bus ide however defined the standard interface created for the ibm which requires the cpu move all the data bytes with dma talking isa bus here then you can only have dma channel active any one time presumably transferring data from single device even though you can have least devices scsi bus explain how all those devices can dma transfers through single scsi card the isa bus the same time also still trying track down copy ibm reference book but from their technical manual page the fdd adapter buffered the bus and uses the system board direct memory access dma for record data transfers expect see something similar for the hdd adapter the lowly low density original fdd card used dma and the hdd controller doesn that makes real sense
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article apr grebyn com richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes heck ide used dma then you hear all kinds complaints about isa bus systems with more than ram not working with their ide drives the dma addressing limit the isa bus and ide did dma there would trouble there would problems long the didn set dma transfer area above the area the dma controller probably can programmed that way anyways there probably isin problem with this besides like said before the fdd controller uses dma channel and don yet believe that the hdd controllers any them mfm rll etc don also use dma
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where find comm ports with irqs other than and hamilton romulus ehs uiuc edu wayne hamilton writes friend mine recently got such serial card have ask him verify the details but recall paid made stb has was ports and supports the irqs addition the convention ones sure the last because had trouble finding comm software that would allow him override the standard irq assignments unfortunately there lot such software also find the case that the majority the software that bad this regard commercial software way too many commercial packages are very poorly written but then most the programs dos are crap such the print command tsr that locks your system for long periods time when the printer full instead trying every clock tick back comm software find success with telix com works telix phil howard pdh netcom com wgn spell protection right wing conservative capitalists are out separate you from your money left wing liberal gooders are out separate you from everything else
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scan rate font size this past winter found myself spending ridiculous amout time front computer since eyes were going berserk decided shell out some serious money upgrade from monitor running eyes are very grateful however find myself using smaller font with less eye strain has anyone else had this kind experience thought that small fonts were the culprit but seems that flicker was real problem any comments alec lee alee edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	know anything about eisa article agate berkeley edu bing zinc cchem berkeley edu bing writes read about the development eisa some time ago but dismissed light the intense interest vesa and pci however recently was disheartened hear that isa cannot address more than ram limit that too many will hit all too soon recall that eisa will support bit transfer among other enhancements there such standard being developed very possibly but still going backwards compatible with the isa bus going the same tripe that the current eisa implementation really from what seen the pci bus will just new bit mhz intelligent bus bus controller takes care interrupts and the like not jumpers hopefully get somewhere there with the amiga zorro iii bus bus bit too much hack for liking toodlepip marc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	upgrade from help needed greetings please forgive this faq there source this kind info please let know just got station around dimension and thinking about upgrade the station has power supply two floppy disk drives and the big case have sony monitor syquest drive mac and maybe rom reader mac for here are the questions have far there motherboard this dimension that could use the case the original owener has the controller for floppy drive and hard disk removed can use them control these devices under how much have pay for new controllers the old ones won work how can make syquest scsi and rom scsi work this station heard that there cheap sound board that has scsi controller built what quality this board how much usually does scsi control cost there any ftp sites that has syquest driver rom driver for the can have everything hooked what want motherboard sound board make mpc quality station how much would cost that worth the hussle than just buy new station btw need buy keyboard for too any input welcome thank you peter liu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck article apr kosman uucp kevin kosman uucp kevin gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck running dos with menu system alive all the time the machine left running all the time suddenly the date longer rolls over the time reasonably accurate allways but have change the date hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system get dos anyone have the slightest idea why this should even clue whether the hardware battery cmos dos broken bet suddenly started sticking when you started leaving the running the menu all night there limitation bug the date roll over software that means you have doing something like waiting for keyboard input via dos call rather than bios call menus often use otherwise the code update the date after midnight never gets called somebody might able correct the details case mis rememberred them but think you have change the menu program you have the sources add tsr system patch something far know the cmos clock keeps the right time fact about seconds day better than dos clock mark aitchison university canterbury
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	netware server and sft netware level serialisation facts netware server was roughly moved new location and left powered down for three months from memory has hard drive manuals and original disks are for sft netware level when powered the cmos was wiped technician examined and pronounced the disk drive unusable investigations indicate that drive type cylinders sides when cmos set this way compsurf runs happily with bad blocks use prepare hotfix the one internal drive install will proceed successfully but when try boot the server reports that the software not serialised for this hardware internal examination indicates that the keycard present and there one disk drive least one large single unit attempts configure second drive cmos result drive not ready errors questions the software netware level and can see burnt the screen sft netware level however configure netware for level mirrored duplexed disks requires second disk yes how the novell server normally configured can install sft netware level level this what causing serialisation error the novell server normally equipped with two hard drives one which has failed would this mean can not install the network software because will not serialised for this hardware with failed drive what else can cause serialisation error what happens the keycard fails doing something wrong can someone knowledgeable offer some comments and guides thanks for your time apology appreciate that have posted this request somewhat widely dealing with somewhat archaic hardware and software hoping that casting net further more likely capture someone who has met this system before believe can justify the groups which posting please feel free correct you feel this inappropriate place post this this posting definitive bljeghbe chugh vaj blhegh wayne mcdougall keeper the list shows better than star trek ask about the auckland festival missions april always change mind when new evidence available what method you use
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problem with printer and emm exe recently decided try using emm exe for memory manager and when tried print printer lpt from word wouldn work would send the linefeeds for the top margin and then the printer ready light would off and stop working disabled emm exe and the problem went away would like continue using emm exe possible would greatly appreciate any comments suggestions please send them arthur washingt arthur washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi how you bus mastering the isa bus initiating dma xfer seriously busmastering adapter have their own dma ability they don use the motherboards board dma which much slower isa has bus arbitration two busmastering cards isa system try dma xfers the same dma channel the system will lock crash forget their are dma channels isa system are bit are bit the system uses dma soundblaster uses dma could buy busmastering xga video card busmastering scsi order for them work properly would have find out what dma channel the xga card uses and then simply configure the scsi use different dma channel for its dma xfers don know multiple dma xfers can the same time isa not sure they can eisa systems either know that eisa mca systems you can allow cards use the same dma channel thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings they don have conflict because technically lpt does not use irq the parallel printer processor the actual number escapes contains printer control register which enables the chip transmit interrupt the interrupt controller irq then onto the main processor int default the parallel printer processor does not enable interrupt line therefore int will sourced from the printer controller chip thus enabling other devices use the actual irq note this applies com ports also which default not route interrupts the system bus although com software usually enable this feature make monitoring com port activity easier than polling the serial uart thus probably getting the sound card slighty confused windows may different story
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and noisy lines just got problem have cheapo bps modem which use connect university but get too much garbage the screen know because the noise the line can actually hear question will error correction protocol help eliminate this garbage modem doesn have any these hardware can software implemented protocol the trick thanks juan carlos leon jleon scf usc edu jcleon ucs usc edu electrical computer major university computing services university southern california los angeles
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck can imagine why someone would leave their computer all the time start with its like leaving your lights radio and everything the house all the time nuts gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help tonight determine this mhz chip did ever accrue you just call intel number and ask gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors would realy like hear from someone that has one these nanao monitors that driving with diamond speedstar with the set run its khz output mode and realy driving the hell out the monitor just woundering the nanao would fall apart with poor low capabilities like sony did with the driving their balls off sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	perfect mag monitors article last from tamuts tamu edu rithea hong newsgroups comp sys ibm hardware subject perfect mag monitors date sat apr friend mine got mag the above model and had some distrotion sent back unfortunately the replacement also was distorted would bet common problem the best advice heard when buying monnitors actually look the specific one you will buy opposed model since monitor manufacturing even from big names still tends produce alot monitors with visible defects rithea hong tamuts tamu edu end file press return quit just name two the top list crap monitor makers are sony magnavox sam gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	multiport com boards info needed what more com port boards are available for pcs want standard com ports need mention the expensive coprocessed ones they should either able share irqs able use irqs thanks for any info
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa bus pin question diamond speedstar the the speedstar for those systems with boot problems your system fails boot proprtly please pull off the jumper block from this will not affect the proformance the speedstar this what manual says about never knew that was there but the card real ask kicker book beats the hell out junk sony the point that can even use above mode much sam some times upgrage turns out big overkill like driving sony with that the monitor can handle installing simms and then finding out that your mother board doesn have cmos wait state adjustment take advantage the new simms that you just bought gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	philips monitor does anybody have opinion the philips monitor how does compare the nanao looking for good like many other net ers and found good price for the philips here some the specs sony trinitron tube digital micro control display area refresh anti glare mpr auto scan khz why don ever see this monitor for sale one company apr computer shopper what the what the best price around for this and how bout that mag love mag except for that little color alignment thing the edges brian schaufenbuel brian schaufenbuel there art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that draining money from the pockets the ames people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wangtek tape controller card revision address irq wanted have wangtek tape controller card revision that was used with the sytos backup system take backups friend system that system has crashed and attempting restore unfortunately the documentation for this ancient card has been lost the mists time and need know the dma irq and address for this card can anyone suggest how could determine these things there bank dip switches the card which are set upupup upupup upup upup open thanks for your time this posting definitive bljeghbe chugh vaj blhegh wayne mcdougall keeper the list shows better than star trek ask about the auckland festival missions april always change mind when new evidence available what method you use
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sound blasters machine possible have sound blasters machine would give your the equivalent pro but with stereo digitized sound the way creative labs price pro the price equal suppose you could set the addresses and but what about the dma channels any way what this dma channel sharing hype does share the and hardisk dma channels something more esoteric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck bsardis netcom com barry sardis writes kevin kosman uucp kevin gorman writes anybody seen the date get stuck running dos with menu system alive all the time the machine left running all the time suddenly the date longer rolls over the time reasonably accurate allways but have change the date hand every morning this involves exiting the menu system get dos started notice the same thing myself running dos and win can fix from the windows control panel times the date others the clock seems running several minutes behind where should did once hear that order for the date advance something like clock has make get date system call apparently the clock hardware interrupt and bios don this date advance automatically the get date call notices that midnight reset flag has been set and then then advances the date anybody with more info john bongiovanni systems analyst orbital engine company perth australia oecjtb oec orbital dialix bongo alumni caltech edu opinions expressed are own and not those organisation
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trident switch settings someone archive this dip txt jeffrey hundstad gum vax mankato msus edu switch settings the trident vga graphics adapter layout dram vga graphics adapter layout dram vga graphics adapter layout dram dip switches connector for analog monitors connector for ttl monitors note jumers for layouts and for layout video bios basic input ouput system tvga chip vga graphics chip edge connector for ibm and compatible systems video dram feature connector for special applications video dac jumper blocks and board only note hardware option feature not present for all board versions switch settings for the switch dip box from figures switch scan rate less than khz default off khz switch fast and slow address decode off fast address decode default slow address decode switch bit data path off bit data path default bit data path jumper settings settings for irq xxx xxx off def settings for bus size detections autodetect standard interface def settings for dram configuration two dram four dram eight dram dram clock select xxx xxx mhz mhz two dram dram swich setings vga mode default ega mode off cga mode off mda hercules mode off off
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	possible faq question about uart organization compact solutions canberra act australia hello question could someone mail the names manufactures the and predecsor uarts have only seen national semiconductor are one that know cheers ben ben elliston bachelor engineering computer engineering university canberra email jarrah canberra edu also ellib cbr cpsg com uucp uunet munnari sserve adfa compsol root fidonet train station where the train stops what workstation origin compact solutions canberra act australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	tseng card other vlb cards please hai few days going buy new motherboard with local bus ses comes with cirrus logic vlb card which has ram onboard can true color but don know what type card read that cirrus logic cards aren exactly the fastes around old system had tseng was pretty pleased with consider buying tseng card like know few things how the speed performance dos windows unix graphics text also compared cards for example what resolutions including colors does support text graphics how many ram can installed and what type ram compatibility with old tseng support software anyone has any experience with this card good bad like know you have better alternative than the please tell about for the people holland kan iemand misschien vertellen waar nederland verkrijg het liefst omgeving van amsterdam thanks advance erik stel estel
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with internet know this isn the exact right place put this but desperate going home for the summer and wont have direct access vax account problem need service that doesn charge body parts vital organs first born son that allows access the internet all really need able telnet school account and from there can anything need any help will greatly appreciated please mail dfmorgan acs harding edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck article qte usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes can imagine why someone would leave their computer all the time start with its like leaving your lights radio and everything the house all the time nuts computers are special case and pretty good idea leave them cuz everytime you turn computer you putting surge electricity through its delicate components imagine you turning your computer more times day you increasing the chances damaging the chips memory etc all the components your computer you may save few cents here and there electricity bills but won look like much when come time fix your computer worth ngo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	digitizing tablet questions rithea hong tamuts tamu edu wrote the market for all small digitizing tablet and would like any comments the main names see are calcomp summagraphics and kurta what are the major differences any particular preference also what should look for and what should avoid thanks for any input you can provide rithea hong tamuts tamu edu ville walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	computer gets locked help weird thing has happened computer lately gets locked stops doing anything any instance without any reason whatsover might using edit and gets locked might the prompt the same occurs happens almost once every times connect the computer does anyone have the slight idea what wrong with try use ctrl alt del after that response have turn off and back again thanks any help will really appreciated mail possible sometimes can access this service enrique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi dos hello netters have question concerning scsi dos have scsi controller and two hard disks conected and like connect scsi streamer but don have software access does such beast exist shareware also what want third disk know that dos only can see two two physical and four logical disks will possible use extra disks thanks advance hojme euromax dansk data elektronik vejle branch denmark telephone int fax int mail ibh dde
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi why vlb busmastering slows your system article apr mnemosyne edu smace nyx edu scott mace writes have you ever seen what happens when you hook busmaster controller vesa local bus actually slows down your system you don belive what said about busmastering and vlbus then pick back issue week whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards vlb busmastering bad because stops the processor fetching from external cache well main memory while the vlb card has the bus how significant the slowing effect
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rom drive recommendation all would like purchase rom drive the specs would like have applicable kodak multisession photo scsi interface compatible with adaptec does not need any caddies cheaper possible double speeded believe there are drives satisfying all the above condition would like know all your opinion the above conditions are sorted priority think nec cdr little bit expensive but does satisfy almost all the above conditions the problem that not know the compatibility with has someone succeeded connect these nec drives have heard rumor that nec drive incompatible with adapter any suggestions are greatly appreciated thanks advance kobayashi masaoki masaoki tky com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	faq cyrix dlc reply apoylis inode com there faq cyrix dlc missed could anyone please repost email thanks advance alexander poylisher internet apoylis inode com fidonet blue wave qwk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	atari mono and vga have anybody succeded converting atari monomchrome monitor into mono vga monitor please let know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used thanx max brante max tdb institutionen teknisk databehandling uppsala universitet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	western digital info needed article jester gun michael jester gun michael gerhards writes holly maccs mcmaster wrote western digital also has three sets pins the back using with another hard drive well and the settings for the jumpers were written right the circuit board the drive the jumper used the other drive conner xxx jumper set drive alone drive master drive slave the western digital will hve marked either put jumper the its printed the circuitry underkneth hope helped had the same problem bye later daze oharad wanda waiariki michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	weitek future plans article apr jetsun weitek com robert weitek com robert plamondon writes article pinn uniko uni koblenz hodgen ozzy uni koblenz wayne hodgen writes sum when accelerated board with vram true colour and fast vga side available under will buy one too what funny when really can buy such product probably won seem mouth watering does today what holograms get outta here can wait cos already got accelerated card does but only colour you may mock but such cards will here quickly enough one the odd things about the computer industry that since you can always wait and get something better some people wait forever know people who have deferred updating their original ibm for decade because every time they look what available they see something better coming down the road know people who dumped their pcs into the garage but haven replaced them because they afraid isn the right time buy they just gave using computers only wait when the difference between current system and the new stuff big enough warrant changing for instance upgrading eisa vlb board rsn the performance difference under linux great enough worthwhile the same time buying new graphic card and new scsi controller buying card cos they fast enough have drivers for them and have vram just like weitek card will also much cheaper when affordable cards arrive buy one personally system home needs new disk subsystem much larger monitor super fast graphics board you know who new cpu board probably won keep much more than the case and the mouse come think don like that mouse very much when will buy when dream products hit the market way gonna buy soon have the money over the last year done much the same but now need monitor more memory just ain enough disk and space left well stay single don smoke and you may afford this year wayne hodgen hodgen infko uni koblenz opinions intel uni koblenz unido infko hodgen keeper the scrolls just rheinau voice defender the net say koblenz fax his name root
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cards card motherboard carl christensen christen astro ocis temple edu wrote this may the dumbest question the year but there way piggyback expand slot motherboard all bit get the usual case has slots for and like get scanner but with all other cards already max out hoping that simple solution exists adapter that turns not sure this will work but how about using one those expanders used the low profile cases they allow slots staggered either side the card you can install the last slot and then probably have sideways slots this actually how done the low profile cases standard motherboard the connector one slot and the expansion cards plugged into the guess you could this each end the slots add even more the connectors are simply tracks with slots them electronics the only downside your case won close but for homebrew system that may not problem don know about performance though leave that discussion the engineers gerry george anything good life either school management boston univ illegal immoral fattening internet ggeorge acs edu any item not the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	partition table disappeared help computer won recognise disk after reboot windows crash grrr are there any options restore everything without losing data the drive previously had partitions but not remember the exact settings have copies the boot data from the disk tools rescue disk not want lose data ide drive have any options gerry george anything good life either school management boston univ illegal immoral fattening internet ggeorge acs edu any item not the above three compu erve compuserve com categories causes cancer rats
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	small looking for that small and doesn break apart you drop the groud doesn have have graphics text only will just fine doesn have fast either will hope but you must stand pretty hard enviroment without breaking apart jumnping trying use outdoor while raining and forth need memory and convinient way loading applications into that wrote myself floppy somekind writeable cartridge there like that and where can get more info know the atari portfolio but can stand the rain marco seirio real life marse caligula his
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	possible faq question about uart article qjp binn fmsrl srl ford com glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes national semiconductor don know other manufacturers make equivalent chips not maybe national isn even the original but they are the only one that know about and argument going direct national see previous post this topic but some info regarding what you said above don know about the but was the original source for the series and strongly suspect that they developed the others first too can also tell you that one those who won buy uart made anyone other than national semiconductor jim include std disclaimer ial internet jim ial mythical com graham ieee org icbm amateur radio ial zbb walton beach amtor selcal nial mail for information about kamterm host mode for kantronics tncs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	non turbo speed just taken delivery mhz machine and very nice too one query the landmark speed when turbo something mhz thats not the problem the problem the speed when turbo off its mhz the equivalent car terms having nice porsche with button that turns into skateboard does anyone have clue what determines the relative performance turbo non turbo would like set give landmark speed about mhz with turbo off cheers nic percival well that was piece cake micro focus newbury piece cake master radial slice baked ext confection coefficient relevance nmp mfltd key time zero who
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info font cartridge for laserjet looking for good add font cartridge for laserjet found magazine article enginnering and pacific data products are well known maker cartridge for laserjet series but couldn find the model name these products any suggestions please thanks advance hakamata atsushi sony corporation osaki technology center
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	and what the difference except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types and processors the following list with what know perhaps only what think know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache emulates with bit bus true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct internal cache correct how big extended instruction set any way probably sorta like probably sorta like well not much but sure there lot people out there who can add lot information post email you prefer lars dal what the difference between quantum email joedal dfi aau mechanic and auto mechanic physics student the quantum mechanic can get his car into university aarhus the garage without opening the door denmark david kra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	booting from drive think vga copy can what you need you create new floppy for your drive that the turn the modify switch vga copy when you boot using this diskette message appears this system disk you can replace disk with another boot from harddisk switch drives and reboot that becomes becomes type your choice when you select the third item you can boot from which now called seems work very good for example booting drdos from the installation disks format was problem for friend mine have only drive hope that helps robert vga copy shareware easy get newest version seems robert fuhge haagstrasse erlangen tel privat email rtfuhge cip informatik uni erlangen demnaechst erlangen wars are not for see who right but who left robert fuhge haagstrasse erlangen tel privat email rtfuhge cip informatik uni erlangen demnaechst erlangen wars are not for see who right but who left
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	recommendations for local bus cached ide controller article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes article apr sol ctr columbia edu penev venezia rockefeller edu writes have maxtor isa ide controller although machine vlb has the save transfer rate regardless the variations the isa bus speed tested with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem not the interface between the controller and the memory advice buy megs ram save and enjoy performance computer mhz bus isa mhz drive maxtor still like here from people with vlb ide still want know what vlb bus speed used with ide drives still want know some most ide drives can handle bus speeds mhz recently bought micron vlb computer and the the local bus ide card was getting around transfer rates says norton caled micron because this seemed pathetically slow and they said that norton doesn recognize local bus and won give accurate results was told would need norton order get true account ide transfer speed didn really like this answer part because the drive doesn seem though cranking along much more than that but also don know could tell the difference tried playing around with settings the cmos bus speed the like and noticed significant change performance fed frank shea learn the skillful frank shea that teaches himself fas ultb isc rit edu hath fool for his master rochester institute technology ben franklin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi dos article apr dde ibh dde hojme writes have question concerning scsi dos have scsi controller and two hard disks conected and like connect scsi streamer but don have software access does such beast exist shareware also what want third disk know that dos only can see two two physical and four logical disks will possible use extra disks contrary what others might have thought actually did have scsi drive once was the seagate and the controller found that the controller couldn keep with interleave the best could with the drive was interleave and data transfer about sec have had that drive controller coexist with mfm rll and ide drives because the bios will kinda muscle itself there with help needed from the computer bios dos will see many logical drives much more than had often wondered how many scsi drives you could hang off
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa local bus was wondering anyone out there could point where can get the vesa specifications any relevant books this subject regards jimmy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	trident drivers for win hello got old trident svga card but lacking suitable drivers for windows the drivers for the series seem incompatible does anyone have idea where get these drivers address for ftp site would nice thanks advance jouni jouni marttila kyl turku finland jmarttila abo jmarttila finabo abovax jmarttila jjmartti utu pgp key available via finger jmarttila abo
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	and what the difference joedal dfi aau joedal dfi aau lars joedal writes except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types and processors the following list with what know perhaps only what think know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache cache emulates with bit bus true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct correct internal cache correct how big extended instruction set any way was six instructions probably sorta like without the mathematical coprocessor fpu probably sorta like actually the you described above there separate nor either this for intel processors does anyone have complete list with cyrix and ibm products anssi anssi saari tut tampere university technology finland europe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rockwell chipset for any good tdbear dvorak amd com thomas barrett writes article camelot camelot bradley edu joe zbiciak writes what the word the chipset this rom bug specific specific brand using the rockwell the rockwell chipset itself there were assortment firmware problems but that pretty much expected with any fax modem talking with different fax modem which may have also been revised new pretty much oblivious any current firmware problems you have get from someone else someone else could you please comment that have just bought twincom dfi which has rockwell chipset wasn cheap would like hear problems likely run into however can tell you stay clear any board which uses the rockwell mpu opposed the dpu for internal implementation this because the mpu used speed buffering instead having interface without the interface the number interrupts are still the same and thus may get dropped under multitasking conditions like windows far know the speed buffering works for external modems used the internal serial port board phew was lucky the twincom internal version has and one the rockwell chips marked but still would like hear more the above mentioned firmware problems niels
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help can somone explain all the stuff about modems like hst usrobotics why cheap can cannot connect fast some modems just explain everything thanks must believe free will have choice blue wave qwk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi here again apr mnemosyne edu smace nyx edu scott mace writes article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes almost got hernia laughing this one you probably get one when you realize that your vesa super dooper local bus ultra high tech controller sucks anything scsi will obsolete killed off vesa local with any luck bus archeitecture will doen any with sbus have you ever seen what happens when you hook busmaster controller vesa local bus actually slows down your system bus ide must real nice get shafted bucks for the extra cost scsi drive then pay another for scsi controller yeah there absolutely use for vlb except for video graphics and ide could possibly take advantage the vlb because runs mhz and bits people forget that the ide was specifically designed interface directly with the isa bus seen ides come out for eisa isa and now even mca but all times was bit standard running somewhere near mhz when you run ide off the vlb there way that you running mhz would burn course same goes for scsi esdi whatever none them run cpu speed the only way gain advantage with vlb ide hook caching controller suspect would much much better get software disk cache instead since you get write caching well because you have ide and one makes ide disks that big seen some fuji ide drives going high yousuf khan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can get work ati ultra pro unable get gateway run windows ordered ati ultra pro and pretty sure the really there because can select but matter what with the flex program the ati program group remains ghosted out have windows build the drivers dos the drivers were installed gateway not perhaps there file missing from the hard drive runs just fine did into the desktop window and select sometimes refuses ghosted out other time accepts but when hit and enter desktop back time does unghost the main flex window help keith mancus mancus butch jsc nasa gov wvr mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov black powder and alcohol when your states and cities fall when your back against the wall leslie fish
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos question could some kind soul please email response since don have much time read this group question have hard drive which currently has left how much space will doublespace allow have have ram matters thanks advance jason jason brown decster uta edu fav player ruben sierra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can get work ati ultra pro article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes unable get gateway run windows ordered ati ultra pro and pretty sure the really there because can select but matter what with the flex program the ati program group remains ghosted out have windows build the drivers dos the drivers were installed gateway not perhaps there file missing from the hard drive runs just fine did into the desktop window and select sometimes refuses ghosted out other time accepts but when hit and enter desktop back time does unghost the main flex window help maybe you need into mach install and set refresh rate for you might need use custom monitor option dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf utexas edu dcoleman utxvms utexas edu the university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	question about fastmicro thought read that fastmicro was having some financial difficulties this true can seem find the posting about and was wondering someone can confirm this thanks eric sebastian
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what disk drives are out there when delivered you will often always get diskettes you opt for the inch format how big tage existing have these low capacity drives their only diskette station ooo ooo richard soderberg the karolinska institute systems analyst mic kibic voice library and fax medical information center snail box doktorsringen stockholm stockholm email richard micb mic sweden
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with magitronic bit memory card needed busy resurrecting some old machines hey they cheap and they work and would grateful for any help with the following card magitronic full length bit memory only card has room for rows dips for total ram has position dip switch presumably for addressing does any kind soul out there have any docs drivers for this beast disgustingly grateful thanks lee lee tosspot com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit mfm controller wanted again okay getting old type together well anyone have bit mfm hdc they like sell preferred but adaptec and dtk are fine too for that matter almost anything long works lee lee tosspot com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cga card monitor wanted and again title says all why lee lee tosspot com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	serial multiport card for sale selling arnet multiport card four serial ports one card with docs and drivers for and dos works great with unix flavors too aggregate probably around offers also willing swap for monitor lee lee tosspot com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi dos article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes was the seagate and the controller found that the controller couldn keep with interleave the best could with the drive was interleave and data transfer about sec according what others have told the difficult run the interleave even though seagate claims have non system don ask what you probably haven heard that built around scsi and can either brian bcwhite sunee uwaterloo theory theory and practice are the same practice they not
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck article qte usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu sam latonia writes can imagine why someone would leave their computer all the time start with its like leaving your lights radio and everything the house all the time nuts have plenty computer labs where the computers are left all the time don see any shorter lifespan than the ones have the offices which does get turned off the end the day fact some the computers the labs have outlived some the same ones the offices but goes both ways can conclude anything thomas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with dtk plus card needed trying help friend mine get the second serial port his dtk plus card working and does not want cooperate the documentation help all example says the serial port can changed com from com moving jumpers but does not say what jumpers move there are banks jumpers the first one labeled follows the second bank labeled irq and has the following labels have determined that the jumpers tell address the first serial port com com the jumpers tell use the printer port lpt lpt guessing that the enables the game port and the should enable the second serial port but can get work have tried numerous setting the irq bank without success assume that this bank must tell the card which irq use for both ports but don know how any suggestions would greatly appreciated ebd elliot dierksen that real poncho mean that mexican poncho that sears poncho hmmm foolin zappa dierksen att com elliot alfred uucp
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors mikey sgi com mike yang writes article qslfs access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes also reviewed new nanao the which has just been released what the difference between the and the new about buy gateway system and was going take the upgrade should get the instead mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com the optimized for windows powers down when the screen blanker appears powers down with you turn your computer off and meets all the swedish standards also protected against emi from adjacent monitors personally think the more bang for the buck right now
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what the diff between mouse sys com what the difference between loading mouse com autoexec bat and doing device mouse sys config sys which one better thanks lot enrique
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	fastmicro out business heard fastmicro went out business this true they don answer their number
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	and what the difference article joedal dfi aau joedal dfi aau lars joedal says except from clock frequency what are the differences between the various types and processors the following list with what know perhaps only what think know can anybody extend correct true bit processor cache cache also called emulates with bit bus has the same internals the real bit processor just has bit hookup the outside world true bit processor internal mathematical coprocessor correct yes optimized internal internal cache correct how big yes extended instruction set any way yes but only few instructions nothing noteworthy probably sorta like with coprocessor probably sorta like nope just another name for the frank racis fwr psuvm psu edu fwr eclu psu edu computers are useless they can only give answers will not raise taxes the middle class pay for programs wjbc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how loopback connector made need know the pins connect make loopback connector for serial port can build one the loopback connector used test the serial port thanks for any help steve
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help need diagnostic disk for compaq deskpro article apr clam rutgers edu steuer clam rutgers edu robert steuer writes emergency management group was given about compaq deskpro from local company they were outdated problem though seems that the cmos settings cannot set without this diagnostic disk get this error msg boot system options not set run setup insert diagnostic diskette drive someone has this disk please mail thank you robert steuer amateur radio foa epa usa rutgers university internet steuer clam rutgers edu vhf repeater system cherry hill repeater mhz computer operating system why settle for less robert you have probably solved your problem now anyway you can get your hands plus version maybe others well will let you write the compaq cmos settings know because just did was just about search for such diagnostic disk when brother law fixed old deskpro with you might try the simtel mirror ftp sites george
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article qulqa access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes the optimized for windows powers down when the screen blanker appears powers down with you turn your computer off and meets all the swedish standards also protected against emi from adjacent monitors thanks for the info personally think the more bang for the buck right now how much more does the cost mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	robotics info wanted could someone please give some info regarding the usr sportsters that have recently dropped below was going buy used courier bis external without fax for but now see the sportster with fax selling below brand new are these good modems what warranty they carry any info very much appreciated kevin hollyk mcmail cis mcmaster
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cyrix dlc cpu anyone using this cpu what your impressions the cpu performance compatability there benchmark program called comptest said cyrix cpus have bug they cannot run the program also may nextstep regards desmond lut
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	new svga card all hardware netters seen recently some magazines advertising new trident graphics card call the said new and faster how compare tseng btw which the fastest non accelerated svga the market any info benchmark are welcome thanks advance regards desmond lut
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumbo backup problems have colorado memory systems jumbo tape backup unit gateway tower system have found the supplied backup capability fairly unreliable approx cases out have had the backup fail one point another often hanging the middle writing the tape seek errors drive communication errors seem most common use the dos backup software from colorado memory systems should return the drive get some better backup software reformat the tapes using cms tapes any hints would appreciated this stuff time consuming over and over again until cooperates steve norman snorman den mmc com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info maxtor scsi jumper setting got harddisk shipped with ide specification but not the scsi spec would someone tell how set the jumper the harddrive thanks please email response philip sinn sinn carson washington edu university washington
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mitsumi and pro just bought mitsumi rom drive and pro soundcard the pin outs the rom line out and the pro are not the same considering taking the rca output jacks the mitsumi interface card and routing them the line input the pro will this work with multi media software that uses the rom and the pro need the pins the pro thanks john john manning opinions expressed are own manning csc enet dec com not represent digital equip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vesa what bus mastering read article about the benefits vlb motherboard said that true vlb board supports bus mastering otherwise just good isa motherboard doesn all vlb motherboard support bus mastering just bought vlb and the tech manual does not explicitly state the words local bus mastering but said supports bus master and slave modes are these terms synonymous thanks please reply mail don read this newgroup often
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	winjet accelerator card anyone familiar with this video card what chipset does the winjet use the market for vlg video card what the best chipset among cirrus logic and tseng lab ati out the question too expensive thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks have just installed diamond stealth isa card system with cache and megs memory that gets about cpu benchmark rating using the color driver under windows getting winbench winmarks rating only about million since have heard that others get million for this card assume that something very wrong with setup what are some possible causes the card slowing down like this ran the qualitas asq diagnostic program memory and noted the following memory timings machine asq qualitas system analysis mon apr page access timing hex access speed ratio start start size time note two things this chart the video memory appears many orders magnitude slower than system memory are there wait states being inserted here and what would cause that the ems page frame seems ridiculously slow even though being mapped the fast xms memory system through emm what going there note that stealth video bios being shadowed through the ami bios any ideas what might happening here will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	rom drives has someone list rom with scsi interface and known how much they are present the market please mail direcktly not reguarly reading the group post summary wanted thanks ihno ihno krumreich phone iii synerix gmbh email ihno generics sub org bach strasse fax karlsruhe uuu iii ihno krumreich phone iii synerix gmbh email ihno generics sub org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	motherboards hard drives have just few quick questions does anyone here have dlc system cyrix any problems with second how much should cyric dlc motherboard with ram run should total amatuer like myslef able perform motherboard swap without the aid technician beyond hope hear that some not all hard drives may require reformatting you switch them another computer motherboard the case may there any truth this any replies would greatly appreciated
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	umbdr zip any later version fombaron ufrima imag fombaron marc writes there more recent version umbdr zip because doesn work machine motherboard has symphony chips and they say will supported the later versions out thank you for helping marc the last heard the author was having some problems his immediate family and had delayed the continuation development for time this was some months ago shame the driver the best memory manager have found anywhere doesn require mode like qemm works with ultima doesn take any memory runs then exits only the emm provider were little faster and more stable tmcreek eos ncsu edu these views respresent one now you creek aza csc ncsu edu even won claim them are here include std funny stuff this where include some witty tripe
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dec adaptec scsi comm conflict have dec that has adaptec scsi controller hard disk and rom drive when add comm ethernet card and reboot the system receive error message that boot device cannot found pull the comm card and reboot everything fine moved the controller and comm card various slots different positions slot before the controller slot after the controller with the same result dec hasn responded the problem yet any help would appreciated edward keegan facility director mail keegan yale edu yale university computer science department phone prospect street room fax new haven
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks article westesc qvap bgj netcom com westes netcom com will estes writes have just installed diamond stealth isa card system with cache and megs memory that gets about cpu benchmark rating using the color driver under windows getting winbench winmarks rating only about million since have heard that others get million for this card assume that something very wrong with setup what are some possible causes the card slowing down like this most importantly which winbench version are you using local bus ati graphics ultra pro gotten various winbench scores from million million winmarks depending the version winbench gives the most optimistic scores gives the least winmark rating meaningless without corresponding version number dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman ccwf utexas edu dcoleman utxvms utexas edu the university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	recommendations for local bus cache article sol ctr columbia edu penev rockefeller edu penio penev writes apr gmt divya sundaram sundaram egr msu edu wrote would like hear the net wisdom and net opinions ide controllers would liek get ide controller card for vlb motherboard what are good options for this preferably under must also work under and compatible with stacker and other disk compression have maxtor isa ide controller although machine vlb has the save transfer rate regardless the variations the isa bus speed tested with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem not the interface between the controller and the memory advice buy megs ram save and enjoy performance penio penev internet penev venezia rockefeller edu disclaimer all oppinions are mine also have and maxtor have local bus ide controller generic and get tried swapping local bus ide controller for isa ide controller and transfer rate went the specs for this drive show maximum platter controller transfer rate dont know how get there from here the local bus interface got little but certainly not much had hoped also looking for way improve disk performance but not convinced that the controller the bottleneck although willing entertain the possibility that already running big main memory disk cache not really interested this solution either chris brinton teradyne inc brinton icd teradyne com opinions are own but you welcome them
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	winjet accelerator card fragante fragante unixg ubc wrote anyone familiar with this video card what chipset does the winjet use the market for vlg video card what the best chipset among cirrus logic and tseng lab ati out the question too expensive thanks winjet not video card printer accelerator manufactured lasermaster eden prairie willy ville walveranta tel fax linda ave apt from finland oakland faxes automatically recognized usa email wil shell portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing second ide drive article darwin sura net wbarnes sura net bill barnes writes recently cousin got second internal ide drive seagate can look the model number important and been trying help him install got vested interest since machine busted and have use his until get mine fixed already has seagate ide again forget the model number but can find out anyway can seem get the bloody thing managed get one the other drive with the other disconnected but not both the same time whenever try the thing hangs during bootup never gets past the system test the ide controller instruction sheet says supports two drives think configured the cmos correctly the power plugged properly even learned about the master slave relationship that two hds are supposed have didn know pcs were into and think configured the jumpers properly the one the master the new one the slave the only thing can think maybe doing the cabling wrong tried several combinations controller master slave controller slave master master controller slave none them worked unfortunately can think any others another possibility that the one already partitioned into two seperate drives and and the cmos asks for drive and drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others seen could this confusing things need help the drive came bereft any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has little piece paper about the size index card cannibalized the cable one those with connector each end and the one the middle looks like serial connection now lost many many thanks advance this practically emergency have two papers this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer don speak for suranet and they don speak for been told our local computer guru that you can this unless you perform low level format your existing hard drive and set your system for two hard drives from the beginning took him his word and have not tried find out any more about because not going back everything just add another hdd anyone knows for sure what the scoop would like know also thanks advance also bill willis
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help esdi posessed demons help really got ripped off and need some help unripping myself bought maxtor esdi hdd from tech for then paid get repaired for about another here the deal the thing works fine low level formats etc without any bad spots all and then jaws music sectors start going bad eek one time norton disk doctor keeps marking some and some that fixes for about minutes then next day when run ndd again dice more uncorrectable and correctable sectors ahhhhhuuuurrrrrrggggghhhhh fugure ndd just not being thurough enough use spinrite heard that works well what happens spinrite goes and returns the clusters active use ahhhuuuurrrrrrggggghhhh ndd undoes course the problem seams getting worse and worse however when the hdd low level formatted again the problem goes away for while only return day pissed off right now considering buying another hdd and really can afford using smartdrive and windows not using the bit disk access though know that can create problems the disk using the second option trick the controller into thinking got less then cyls and everything else selected standard maybe need use different head skew something don know anyone who knows how fix this problem please tell how help designing tommorow the night before with yesterday technology
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ten beeps with ami bios have motherboard with ami bios haven located the little motherboard manual yet and suddenly giving beeps when turn the power was working fine this morning then gave all kinds problems windows and outside after multiple reboots now only gives beeps and sits there anybody know what beeps means thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with motherboard docs well was told that last message came through without anything try again have leading edge with flaky motherboard and friend game one replace but didn have any docs for the mother board cheertron board with award bios and has sticker that says can tell what most the switches the blue blocks mean except fdc and but have idea about all the jumpers replaced hard drives and modems and installed math processes but this bit out league and without the docs really lost anyone could give some help this really appreciate don get news regularly you can help please mail passman world std com thanks shirl
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with and ncsa telnet help trying configure ncsa telnet work with ethernet board can use ftp fine but whenever attempt use telnet the machine hangs with blank screen and blinking green cursor any ideas please mail lepper maat mct anl gov mjlepper mtu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks does your stealth have row dip switches the back plane you have the older revision board and the winmark results are absolutely normal the later revision board benchmarks million winmarks least mine does toy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	connor jumper settings anyone who knows this answer off hand please answer mail quickly there pair jumpers one side and set the other end one labeled sync and one and whhich need short disconnect get drive operate slave mode give label geographic label they have quite few jumpers and don wanna try the trial and error method using ide think this drive scsi compatible too jimmy jimmyhua usc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help needed setting ncsa telnet appletalk phonenet okay trying install ncsa telnet couple okay whole bunch machines they all true blue ibms with either fallon phonenet cards dastar cards belive those names are correct well the docs for telnet say that run over appletalk driver but had little success anyone has succesfully installed telnet appletalk like some help with the config file for telnet btw please reply via mail possible thanks jeremy jeremy zawodny computer science undergrad bowling green state university jzawodn andy bgsu edu student computer consultant thrilled user
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi ide more hard drives please response directly luoma binah brandeis edu email there are sufficient number interesting responses will post summary april have waded through the mass scsi ide posting but missed any answers question posted early has anyone successfully put both scsi and ide hard drives the same system particularly interested having the scsi the boot drive for those who have managed this feat would appreciate bit more information such what drives which scsi controller and possible what motherboard bios plus any other relevant info thanks advance robert luoma luoma binah brandeis all flames will stored worn drive
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	recommendations for local bus cache penio penev penev rockefeller edu wrote have maxtor isa ide controller although machine vlb has the save transfer rate regardless the variations the isa bus speed tested with speed between mhz and mhz not any difference the problem not the interface between the controller and the memory chris brinton brinton icd teradyne com wrote also have and maxtor have local bus ide controller generic and get tried swapping local bus ide controller for isa ide controller and transfer rate went the specs for this drive show maximum platter controller transfer rate dont know how get there from here the local bus interface got little but certainly not much had hoped also looking for way what the deal with the ide transfer rates anybody getting throughput anywhere close the platter controller rate haven seen anything even close the sec limit the ide interface these drives are non interleaved aren they here are the rates get sequential read msdos program that uses bios calls read sector blocks sequentially from outside first track inward mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt sec sec quantum lps sec sec disk buffer read same program but reads the same block repeatedly effect reading the ram buffer the drive mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt sec sec quantum lps sec sec coretest transfer rate seems agree with above mhz bus mhz bus maxtor lxt sec sec quantum lps sec sec managed get hold the quantum lps product manual and goes into excrutiating detail describing how the bits get from the platter through the controller and out the ide interface nowhere see anything like after the bits are whipped the platter high speed they sit around buffer thaw before they are sent the host even though swear that whats happening here are some relevent quotes from the manual data transferred from the disk the read buffer rate maximum minimum calculations show sec maximum and sec minimum disk spins rpm with sectors per track the outside and the inside single burst errors bits within one sector can corrected the fly real time they occur allowing high degree data integrity with impact the drive performance take this mean error correction isn the bottleneck for page mode operations the data transfer rate and from the buffer ram this high transfer rate allows the interface communicate over the bus data transfer rate while the dcs simultaneously controls disk ram transfers the thing can even cache pre fetch while sending the requested sector has read buffers for pre fetching guess you could call that cache when sequential read the outer tracks why getting measly sec when should getting around sec any you hard disk engineers out there know wondering why disks are slow david ooo ooo david stam linux the choice gnu generation stam netcom com openlook gcc tex free
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	will somebody create messie dos faq please was dos question there think time create dos faq since lots questions about are actually flooding the net won able write self because the lack time knowledge experience perry egelmeers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi here again article apr mnemosyne edu smace nyx edu scott mace writes you don belive what said about busmastering and vlbus then pick back issue week whihc they tested vlbus eisa and isa busmastering cards you recall which issue this was posted message related this while back provoke argument that could get the straight dope this this article would probably give all the definitive answers that want stasic estasic sunysb edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	winjet accelerator card unix portal com wil shell portal com ville walveranta writes winjet not video card printer accelerator manufactured lasermaster eden prairie know there winjet for the laserjet and there also winjet accelerator video card this probably not available the but sure being marketed canada thought you guys over there would have heard some thing about
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pentium clock counts does anyone have list the clock counts for pentium instructions know the integer mul down tick thanks stockman hwstock sandia llnl gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd clones now legal friend mine called the phone and told was wathcing cnn and saw report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their clones has been thrown out making legal for amd ship the can anyone out there verify this thanks advance phil
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need pinouts for ext floppy connectors please all this first posting gentle have zenith external floppy which has connector and like use with sharp and toshiba laptops which also take for their ext floppy but doesn work have the pinouts for the zenith and would like make adapters can use does anyone have pinouts for these other manufacturers ext floppy connectors would greatly appreciate this info either mail fax thanks very much jeff aka flyboy coyote trw com fax jeff wright flyboy spf trw com phone fax trw one space park redondo beach
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks when posting winmark results good idea give the version winbench that you used obtain the scores well the resolution that you tested and the version the drivers eric balog balog eniac seas upenn edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	uarts was uucico for windows turtle west darkside com fred waller writes are not stupid actually they are the sense that hardware solutions software problem are not proper programmer function much deleted amazing could not find one reference waffle all this followups redirected out russell schulz russell alpha ersys edmonton ersys rschulz shad
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can get work ati ultra pro article apr aio jsc nasa gov mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes unable get gateway run windows ordered ati ultra pro and pretty sure the really there because can select but matter what with the flex program the ati program group remains ghosted out have windows build the drivers dos the drivers were installed gateway not perhaps there file missing from the hard drive runs just fine did into the desktop window and select sometimes refuses ghosted out other time accepts but when hit and enter desktop back time does unghost the main flex window help keith had problem getting colors was stuck with even though the flex stuff said was solved entering the advanced window the flex program pannel and changing the color palette sorry for the vaugeness hope helps some btw have and ati gup matt sexton sexton claes space lockheed com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors mikey eukanuba wpd sgi com mike yang writes article qulqa access digex net rash access digex com wayne rash writes the optimized for windows powers down when the screen blanker appears powers down with you turn your computer off and meets all the swedish standards also protected against emi from adjacent monitors thanks for the info personally think the more bang for the buck right now how much more does the cost mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com think the difference about dollars but could wrong these things change between press time and publication
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how much should pay for scsi cable with connectors hub parallan com danj hub parallan com dan jones writes also seem remember posting saying that the scsi spec calls for foot between devices the cable but most cables you get internal don meet the spec scsi draft proposal rev section single ended cable which the cable requirements section has implementor note stub clustering should avoided stubs should spaced least meters apart for the non technical stubs are scsi devices however also aware that implementor notes are basicly recommendations they are not part the spec others have noted many vendors including sgi violate this indeed the main point reduce impedance changes and therefore reflections and therefore noise the bus let one tell that silence gives consent dave olson because whoever silent dissents silicon graphics inc maria isabel barreno olson sgi com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can have printers lan have recently plunged into world have been using amigas before trying establish network lan here that could use different printers panasonic kxp for printing receipts and okidata for letters etc all possible this world know when using unix etc can specify which printer print from but not sure how pcs would handle that they can then guess leave peeeceees for good and move unix mubashir cheema sparco communications lagalarie fax russell street suite email mac msstate edu starkville
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	avi file format would someone please email and post the avi microsoft file format wish some research using this format there are disks available with video clips interesting because interleaves sound and video thank you mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu fax royal melbourne institute technology department communication and electronic engineering box melbourne victoria australia mark gregory lecturer gregory rmit edu fax royal melbourne institute technology department communication and electronic engineering box melbourne victoria australia
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	utility switch cap locks ctrl keys being big fan the official ibm keyboards have keyboard attached clone computer want know there software utility out there that can used switch the locations the ctrl and cap locks keys even better does ibm any third party make ctrl and cap lock key replacements that can used visually switch the keys well will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can set com have been unable get com work diagnostic programs such msd show nothing installed think the software options are there known hardware conflict and workaround for this problemand rom system tower with ati video card ports are set follows board coma com irq external device internal modem com irq dfio port card primary port com irq mouse board com com irq does not work have run this from boot disk with only command com eliminate softwar any suggestions before call technical support john siegel bnc cbnewsh att com jas hrollie att com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	run box cover interested getting the pulse this group regarding extended operation with the cover removed from the enclosure there are reasons considering this including quick access jumpers during complex card setups concern that without complete enclosure direct the cooling flow air from the fan hot spots may develop motherboard elsewhere you have adequate supply air moving over the system most offices homes have positive ventilation you can generally run system without the cover for extended periods without problem talking about completely removing the cover not just leaving the slots uncovered however the biggest reason you have cover begin with sheilding operating system without the full cover may create problems with other equipment such your neighbor ham radio station very much the eyes the law slmr remember they only tools not way life via dlgqwk
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	umbdr zip any later version 
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos know two people who have horrer stories about the dos that the people know with dos both have had reformat their disks and start over one had drive compress and work fine only compress have the thing choke spit out unintelligable warning and then hang all that was left either drive was autoexec bat and config sys calls microsoft only met with busy signals after reformatting the drive not sure had the guts reinstall stay with known entity the other may have been marginal drive however his upgrade failed had format floppy disk format the drive and then reinstall make now claims since was not driving the time however careful and make sure you back important things interested any other people with similar success stories
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hayes external pins hello have hayes moden with cables manuals the modem requires source but not know how connect the power source the pin connector know that the top pin the ground would guess that the other two are the pins right you have any hints please mail really need help thanks duc
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd clones now legal excerpts from netnews comp sys ibm hardware apr amd clones now legal poe wharton upenn edu friend mine called the phone and told was wathcing cnn and saw report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their clones has been thrown out making legal for amd ship the can anyone out there verify this true read about from article clarinet can send here though district court judge william ingram san francisco threw out the jury verdict prohibiting amd from using intels microcode for the david sward sward cmu edu finger email for pgp public key fingerprint stop the big brother chip just say the clipper wiretap chip
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	for sale have megs ram meg harddrive stacked stacker floppy expansion slots drive bays vga card monitor interesting combination cash and trade located chicago please mail this address tmccn merle acns nwu edu call allister thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cdrom audio cable looking for cdrom audio cable connect toshiba audio the pro audio spectrum sound card thanks advance for any pointers steve steve network manager stevela csulb edu calstate university long beach bellflower blvd long beach
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article qsa innm dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes richk grebyn com richard krehbiel writes stuff about the connection between ide and ida deleated mhz clock bit width sec ide speed come from ida where does the sighted for ide come from well some quick math part shows that mhz bus bits wide performing transfer every two clock cycles will provide bytes sec someone said that really takes clock cycles perform transfer that reduces the transfer rate which the commonly used figure for isa bus speed however believe two clock transfer possible wait states richard krehbiel richk grebyn com will for until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck jamesc netcom com james chuang writes when you leave your radio night may not doing anything useful but computers can something useful even when you are not front just because dos and windoze does not know how schedule tasks does not mean that all computers hould shut down every night bet starting every morning means good coffee break jamesc someone asks you are god you say yes addition startup time leave things running because doubles fax machine however this off the original subject didn get the replies bios cmos and dos clock date logic all know that been running this way for many months and only recently the last month that have noticed the intermittent clock problem stated not always the date that doesn roll forward sometimes notice that the clock several minutes behind where ought when unattended the following are generally running minimized win clock winfax pro print manager word file manager program manager random screen saver generally running too barry sardis home laurie avenue office san jose fax email bsardis netcom com compuserve com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors has anyone taken look the new viewsonic they claim how does compare with the terms price and quality display living tulsa time rusty foreman rforeman trc amoco com amoco production research uunet apctrc zrdf box phone tulsa fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway booting from floppy have gateway with inch floppy drive accidentally discovered that have floppy from one particular box diskettets the drive when boot rather than getting the non system diskette message the machine hangs and the cmos gets overwritten luckily gateway sends print the standard cmos settings with their systems this only happens with box pre formatted fuji disks that have other disks cause this problem format one the fuji disks the problem goes away did virus scan scan the disks and found nothing anyone have any idea what going here hardware problem virus that can detected the system reading garbage from the boot sector tim king tcking uswnvg com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bus hdd fdd controller ide hdd fdd controller buying quantum lps hardisk and deciding hdd fdd controller bit bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card hear that the bus controller slower than ide controller which one true please shed some light email post thanks lot best regards beng hang tay telnet singapore networks operation phone hewlett packard singapore pte ltd fax depot road internet taybh hpsgm sgp com singapore republic singapore
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	debugging possible hardware problems article rslinnnv senator bedfellow mit edu jfc athena mit edu john carr writes running linux eisa system and having what think are hardware problems could software but don see why the only one having trouble like some advice how best debug this the symptom when try build gcc get unpredictable and unrepeatable results sometimes file not valid out format recompiling the file gives valid binary sometimes the compiler aborts dumps core but works fine when run again with the same input compiling the same source files with the same arguments gives slight differences few object files note that linux unlike many other systems does not put timestamps object files compiling twice should give bit identical results also have occasional filesystem corruption scsi drive but that could caused using development software could also related problems compiling the compile problems are not caused disk problems get the same results whether work ide scsi disk set the memory speed and cache write speed the recommended values recommended for what dos that junk suspect the external cache but have real evidence for this the motherboard nice super eisa with write back cache and mhz processor what looking for system test program run under dos linux linux gcc fire gcc compile libc and kernel the same time running suggestions about the cause the problem bad memory bad motherboard bad cache suggestions about how debug the problem change wait state ram turn off turbo change bus speed swap ram
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what the diff between mouse sys com sanson wmich edu wrote what the difference between loading mouse com autoexec bat and doing device mouse sys config sys the only difference the time the driver gets loaded mouse sys will loaded during the config sys and therefor before the command com mouse com will loaded during autoexec bat and after the command com which one better mouse com could started from the commandline after the booting and could perhaps unloaded other driver loaded after the working both drivers totally the same when ran dos preferred loading most the drivers autoexec bat because some programs won run with some drivers and could choose the ones needed during startup but with drdos this advantage gone because drdos lets you choose config sys which drivers should loaded michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help ten beeps with ami bios wayne nichols gwni troi rochester edu wrote have motherboard with ami bios after multiple reboots now only gives beeps and sits there referring the manual motherboard with ami bios beeps are cmos shutdown register read write error the system stops after these beeps the system continues keyboard error michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	weitek future plans article qttufinn uniko uni koblenz from apr gmt you wrote article apr jetsun weitek com robert weitek com robert plamondon writes article pinn uniko uni koblenz hodgen ozzy uni koblenz wayne hodgen writes sum when accelerated board with vram true colour and fast vga side available under will buy one supermac just announced new line accelerated cards that bit color they start retail don think your wait will very long rupert
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	reboot problem from usma usma edu tue apr received from usma usma edu trotter usma edu smi eef tue apr edt received usma usma edu eef tue apr edt message usma usma edu date tue apr edt from usma usma edu peckham david cdt decster uta edu subject problem status running unisys with dos problem even when had dos that when have emm loaded can ctl alt del the computer beeps few times rapidly and hangs then have use the obscure reset requires screwdriver pencil the power switch reboot does anyone have solution this problem mail usma usma edu dave thanks dave david peckham internet usma usma edu military academy jason brown decster uta edu fav player ruben sierra
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sound blaster midi currently the process writing number programs for the sound blaster the first which cmf voice editor which hopefully going available soon soon can get ftp site anyway the next stage use the midi port enter music and play the synth remotely the problem that have little info the midi port have tried using the sound blaster freedom project routines however this just results the port locking after couple accesses and loss the note velocity data byte using turbo and would grateful for any info source fragments may help when was berlin this summer saw book which seemed have all this information but german poor say the least anyone has this book could they please mail second request for help concerns standard file formats how can file format standard you keep secret need know the file format for instrument bank files bnk and roland music files rol finally does anyone have source for displaying pcx gif files ega vga monitors please help you know makes sense colin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	sending null character across ethernet have question regarding sending null character across ethernet connection the actual problem that emacs unix editior needs the null character for setting mark and unfortunately don know how sent that from ibm pcs across ethernet wondering anyboy knows the keyboard combination for sending the null character btw control shift which ctrl does not work thanks saeid
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	can set com article rajn cbnewsh att com bnc cbnewsh att com john siegel writes have been unable get com work diagnostic programs such msd show nothing installed think the software options are there known hardware conflict and workaround for this problemand rom system tower with ati video card ports are set follows board coma com irq external device internal modem com irq dfio port card primary port com irq mouse board com com irq does not work have run this from boot disk with only command com eliminate softwar any suggestions before call technical support john siegel bnc cbnewsh att com jas hrollie att com had this problem some time ago some bioses not automatically install com com the port tables programs like most modem programs which write directly the port work fine but anything that uses bios call fails find bbs ftp site where you can get copy port finder put device sys your config sys run com from your autoexec bat this little program will locate all existing ports and make sure the bios tables are updated works great will also let you swap ports and such also that any value you allen mulvey mulvey blurt oswego edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need advice select sound card need some advice from the netland selecting sound card about buy sound card for kid don know which one buy which one select from the following list sound blaster miscrosoft sound card audio spectrum sound blaster pro sound blaster allocated budget around could some you know about sound cards help select the most appropriate one for kid have opti also have nec cdrom that would like connect the sound card thank you kent khioe juno jpl nasa gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	funet artieb vnet ibm com writes saw posting earlier that refered funet directory pub msdos however when log funet cant even find the pub directory let alone the msdos directory can someone tell what doing wrong perhaps you should try nic funet instead funet nic funet the biggest ftp site from europe but the stuff available there should also available the other site the big pool perry egelmeers
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ati build drivers good article fomu austin ibm com larryhow austin ibm com writes how stable are the build drivers are people having success installing and running with these been using the build drivers for several weeks with problems running windows and all software run has worked fine this includes many games and the based multi media encyclopedia which the full motion video works fine recommend you give them try john john gayman wbu uucp uunet wbu john packet wbu eah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gamecards own mhz ram machine and finding too slow for certain games such wing was computer store there the other day and saw series gamecards which claim speed your machine mhz was wondering anyone out there who has similar machine had bought one seen one these gamecards and whether not they actually work any help here would much appreciated thanks advance greg when man lies murders some part the world does eggman
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit box gateway got this from from gateway aol com mailer america online mailer pastor vfl paramax com subject bit disk access date mon mar est message aol com status jon get bit access windows all you have edit the system ini look under the enhanced section and add this line bitdiskaccess this will give you the bitdiskaccess that you need thanks regards scot oehlerking kscooter gateway
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	eric bosco where are you eric send your email address lost reconsidered kevin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	pcs from gateway opinions sought sorry this has been beaten death this forum looking seriously buying from gateway will probably buy without monitor heard negative stuff about gateway monitors also heard its tough get through technical support seeking opinions whether not its wise ahead based criteria such price warranty service general ruggedness the system reliability the machine and gateway too and please advise thanks advance vasudev murthy vasudev murthy any opinions expressed are strictly murthy asl nec com own and have nothing with advanced switching lab nec america inc walnut hill lane irving
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	summary doubledisk gold netters promised here are the summary opinions doubledisk gold people seem quite happy with the product there much opinion how good compared the industry leader stacker superstor pro not considered since slower than stacker although just reliable byte magazine conclusion hard make any decision with stacker with doubledisk gold however seems that quite buy buddy christyono buddy optics ece wisc edu summary replies hello buddy not have gold experience just ordered currently have the last version very pleased with its performance here suggestion you not have any compression software currently would with dos compression all the discussion the net indicates that for you get the compression built into the plus the other utilities that you would pay way more than for besides you are now dos whatever that means you have doubledisk already like the cost for the upgrade after thinking about and asking the net decided that could not wrong with the update cost have never suffered from performance have with large packages both compressed and uncompressed format works great not delays think the better than arguements are lot bunk they are all comparable performance looking forward being able loadhigh the that has been annoyance you have stacker currently would not see worth the effort upgrade just regards mark bagdy buddy got the same mailer about weeks ago got ddg and installed the documentation was opinion easy follow used the automatic installation not the custom and everything went smoothly there were some specific instructions readme file for dealing with max qemm ddg has uninstall unlike dos you need system has hard drive before installing ddg had free after ddg had free pretty good statistics considering that permanent windows swap file stayed the uncompressed portion along with other drivers and such have had problems whatsoever have noticed slowdown other than takes little longer boot either windows dos far very happy camper bruce bruce steinke never know when you going bsteinke dsd com need good piece rope software technical support engineer sam gamgee evans sutherland computer corp mail opinions have been using doubledisk gold for little more than month mhz seagate drive running dos windows enhanced mode ran some tests and concluded that the speed doubledisk drive with drive read cache about equal the bare drive without cache have complaints about reliability was very easy install the only problem had was with castle wolfenstein assumed the game was trying bypass dos disk access and moved the game the non compressed region the disk since then the game has never given problem there was never any damage the doubledisk drive compression performance for the whole disk has held steady around this lower than expected but about size files are compressed image files and some large zip files you have any more specific questions let know dan bought have been happy with use both mfm and ide drives was using doubledisk before gold came out that the same product msdos shipping with problems with either product ron bjornseth bjornset pogo den mmc com end messages
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vlb bus master problem trying put together new with vesa local bus would like get vlb cards for video and scsi but have heard problem with bus mastering controllers vlb something the effect that they will actually slow down system anyone heard this problem specifically interested the ultrastor vlb scsi controller before shell out the bucks for this thing would like get the straight scoop from someone who knows does anyone have this controller any problems with bob kimball rkimball qualcomm com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bit box gateway article apr hpcvca com scott hpcvccl com scott linn writes while playing around with gateway local bus machine last night became apparent that windows didn give the option for bit access for virtual memory using permanent swap file and the disk drive the local bus interface this expected should investigating further why bit option appears you need massage few switches your system ini the virtual memory section flip the bitaccess switch and the associated driver wdctl some such switch this will enable bit access but sure you can use not all hard drives and controllers support for seriously fast disk access throw out windoze install did this weekend incredible finally real for the humble tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ati ultra nanao mancus sweetpea jsc nasa gov keith mancus writes reference running ati install program and using its functions position size images various resolutions thought this was neat feature until noticed that when image sized the scanning frequency necessarily changed this causes digital multiscan monitors like mag get confused which mode use the frequency gets too far from the standard selections for this reason use the factory defaults for position size the ati card and adjust each mode individually only the first time the monitor the mag and many other multiscan monitors has have the ability recall these settings the next time each mode detected edward mcclanahan edm wrs com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	dos know two people who have horrer stories about the dos that the people know with dos both have had reformat their disks and start over used the standard installation program put dos machine with stacker already installed problems kept stacker rather than switch very pleased with the memory gained since did not have memory manager also like the multiple boot feature
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how null modem cable interrested the extrodinarily simple concept the null modem cable actually have idea don count that last statement what asking what pins does use what are specifications just want solder one myself instead buying one don even know what port used help please kimmell vax cns muskingum edu kevin intending use the cable for transfers via lap link telix ideas and info gladly accepted
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	kentucky fried cmos beats hardees hey folks possible short out your cmos chip think mine fried these are the symptoms have the following get computer gateway boot turn the power off disconnect the battery the cmos chip turn the power get into setup upon getting the cmos configuration error set the cmos exit the setup with phoenix bios ignore the diskette seek error and press the computer then boots normally both hard drives are accessible but the floppy drives are not can back over the network and such but need reboot have turn off the computer and repeat the steps above simply ctl alt del the computer hangs after the memory test does this sound like the cmos chip fried can buy another one where thank you for your kind attention john john lusth becton dickinson research center rtp usa jcl bdrc com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	wanted your opinions the insight talon multimedia kits for those you who might familiar with insight distribution network inc and their multimedia kits seriously considering buying the insight talon kit which bundled with the rom drive with access time dtr multispin multi session photo capability etc and with the pas sound card etc you are familiar with insight you know the kit mean believe the drive either texel nec but not clear which one actually part the bundle least two their sales people couldn give straight answer which one yes one the drawbacks oem other questions excuse ignorance but texel reputable maker the rom market you think nec the better drive bottom line this kit worth the money currently for the and for the alternatively was thinking that the might overkill for uses however want full multimedia capabilities photo stuff educational programs for kids etc and considered the lower end kit and using the difference around get something else useful like tape back drive unit basically would just like hear from those who have actually used these kits and whatever pros cons you might advise preferably directly the email address below thanks koji koji kodama nippon motorola ltd ryvg email sps mot com note the opinions expressed herein are mine and not reflect the opinions policies motorola inc its affiliates
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how hot should the cpu how hot should the cpu machine currently gets hot that can not hold finger for more than keep big fan blowing but considering using heat sink any advice chris kushmerick kushmer bnlux bnl gov found niche life just didn fit
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	monitors article shlj ere trc amoco com zrdf trc amoco com rusty foreman writes has anyone taken look the new viewsonic they claim how does compare with the terms price and quality display interested the new viewsonic well has anyone seen one these monitors the flesh tony
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	mounting cpu cooler vertical case just installed cpu clone motherboard and tried mounting cpu cooler the chip after about hour the weight the cooler was enough dislodge the cpu from its mount ended bending few pins the cpu but luckily the power was not yet ended pressing the cpu deeply into its socket and then putting the cpu cooler back far good have others had this problem how you ensure that the weight the cpu fan and heatsink not eventually work the cpu out its socket when mounting the motherboard vertical case will estes internet westes netcom com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hint vlb isa eisa motherboard article ovwv lmo news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian schaufenbuel writes looking buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good bad any information would helpful thanks brian schaufenbuel believe that any eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset limited bit eisa dma where real eisa dma bit the hint eisa dma has the ram addressing limitation isa for this reason would pass own one these hawk eisa isa and look ing replace for exactly this reason please double check this other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well using mine with dos windows and unix also with adaptec eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	soundblaster irq and port settings these lpt com disk controller are call devices there are devices that requires exclusive interrupt ownership disk controller and keyboard there are also devices that does not require exclusive ownership will share interrupt with another device lpt standard isa bus the one that almost all non laptop pcs use two separate interface cards cannot share interrupt this due screwup the bus design for example your soundblaster wants drive interrupt number then must hold certain bus wire all times depending whether not wants interrupt this precludes letting another card assert interrupt number when two more devices isa bus share interrupt because they implemented single card andrew klossner andrew frip tek com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	zeos computers have had zeos for couple months while the experience was not painless perfect was way better than that endured most people personally know who have ordered gateways course several the gateway buyers were rewarded getting free stuff gateway can seem keep track what has hasn sent out got the viper card the first one was defective but zeos replaced with only minor hassles this one works fine haven noticed any problems any applications also ordered because all the complaints about the ati few months ago guess you can choose either buggy state the art stuff robust average stuff for particular configuration tower watt supply pkg monitor viper etc the zeos was slightly cheaper than gateway austin etc but this can change from month month mike
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ibm link imagewriter help hello trying hook apple imagewriter ibm clone seem have problem configuring lpt port accept this how can you adjust baud parity etc fit the system tried mode but did not work anyone can help post mail thanx abort retry format doctor give the chainsaw trust scientist larry henson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how hot should the cpu christopher kushmerick kushmer bnlux bnl gov wrote how hot should the cpu machine currently gets hot that can not hold finger for more than seem recall that run somewhere close the boiling point water anyone have exact temperature anyway putting cpu fan heat sink won hurt and could help depends how paranoid you are damien neil dpn cwru edu until someone debugs reality the best case western reserve university can quick patch here and there cmps eeap linux the choice gnu generation erik green
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	orchid fahrenheit mini review article apr adobe com sherwood adobe com geoffrey sherwood writes going with the modern trend the orchid card only supports colors mode without driver course this breaks any dos program which uses svga modes like most roms this not the case the rom the supports vesa modes colors vesa compliant applications should have trouble setting these modes but forwarding your posting our software group just case can too careful not that doubt that your applications are failing run lots stuff depends figuring out which exact svga they looking and don use vesa calls vesa still pretty new every new chip set confuses them the supported resolutions really annoy you can you tell the driver you have nec they only have about six monitors listed plus generic and you choose generic you can get any high refreshes all but you are limited seems that the hardware should able support the bandwidth can sure should able higher vertical resolution was the main reason bought the card over the orchid vlb currently have and will well think least and maybe more and function the ramdac speed not the power need fix the problems you noted they were already the list you really interested though take look the text file res dat which holds the data from which the choices the monitor installation program are built working analogy you can build new monitor definition that has the right combinations refresh rates for your monitors keep backup copy the file once you built new version the res dat file run the installation program inst and your new choices should show this assumes you have the weitek drivers you can tell the rev number looking the modification time the driver version microsoft uses this gimmick too the board faster that the ofvlb for most things according the hercules speedy program this program tests various operations and reports the results pixels second don have the numbers for the graphite card but they were close half the ofvlb slower but that was running mhz isa the numbers aren really comparable the following numbers were all obtained using mhz air motherboard umc chipset with memory give ranges because the program reports the numbers computes them and these tend jump around bit the speedy benchmark was put out hercules and iit who knowledge were unencumbered any motivations except making the hercules graphite iit agx card look really good take the numbers with ton salt texas instruments did the same thing with wintach trying make the look good compared the anyone cared safer though not safe use benchmarks from unbiased sources such testing labs columnists etc interestingly the solid vectors and shaded polygons show improvement and hatched polygons filled with cross hatching and ternary rops whatever they are graphics operations like xors maybe are dead loss the think you large discrepancy between the results speedy and the results anything else the universe these things give two numbers for the fonts because think they are caching when the fonts are first drawn the screen they are done fairly slowly the speed the ofvlb then the speed increases dramatically sounds like programming benchmark font caching perfectly legitimate optimization windows has hooks for built right into the gdi what kind silly iit use hardwired the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog then sat tack string their driver not only useless real applications lacks the programming elegance the bart simpson optimization which you save the bitmap the most recently drawn string off screen memory and just screen screen bitblit you happen given that same string second time row call the bart simpson optimization because bart the only person can see benefiting from could right will not cheat benchmarks hundred times and done half the time would take actually form each character make claims that these numbers mean anything all its just what saw when ran them computer normally don write disclaimers but this time maybe better testing totally unconnected with work program under unix decstations done completely without the knowledge blessing equipment company don have any lawyers they all working for intel there used lawyer montana who didn but died robert robert plamondon robert weitek com pay attention the man behind the curtain the great and glorious have spoken scene from trade show
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	the ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work there just bought gateway system with meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems work fine except for the windows drivers for bit and and bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes use everything the screen totally unintelligible naturally called gateway tech support inquire about this the technician asked about the drivers and told him was version build told that the and bit drivers for the ati ultra pro simply not work this true simply amazed how could this the strange thing would have expected see some discussion here unless the subject has made the faq one very suspicious point that came later was that stated that none the windows accelerator boards have working and bit drivers for windows easily challenged him that because been running diamond bit mode home for months now and have tested and used the bit mode well then backed off and said well diamond has been working those drivers much longer anyway just wanted see anyone else had any trouble and what they did about any feedback will appreciated the system configuration gateway local bus megs ram scsi rom ultrastor local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with vram dos windows mach drivers version build thanks advance ali vali reza magellan utexas edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problems with toshiba cdrom article apr news columbia edu imj cunixa columbia edu imad jureidini writes recently purchased the toshiba cdrom own adaptec scsi card and have far failed get the cdrom work under dos works very well under know that the drive not faulty config sys have aspi dos sys aspidisk sys aspicd sys autoexec bat have mscdex which came with dos mscdex seems find and install the drive drive but when switch that drive and try dir get error message telling the drive not ready something like that the cdrom locked too and the adaptec utilities don seem recognize that have cdrom that point has anyone ever had this problem there something abvious that missing and finally was wondering anyone using this setup could kindly post his her config sys and autoexec bat one the aspi drivers think the aspicd supports norst paramter which means not reset the scsi bus when loads this fixed the problem friend mine was having with his adaptec tosh regards terje
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	volante warp board been troubleshooting the existence way too many general protection faults eisa vlb system this point think narrowed the problem down the video drivers for the volante warp adapter national design inc yet somehow find this hard believe does anyone else have any experiences with this board thanx robert moskal brooklyn usa
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	should get vesa controller card have mhz with local bus would see much increase speed drives got vesa ide controller card need advice jimmy buddenberg internet jbuddenberg vax cns muskingum edu muskingum college
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what dma are system using hello having small problem with sound blaster pro and game there utility out there that would tell what dma system using thanks mark brown
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need info diamond viper video card experiences with diamond viper vlb video card several problems the specified million colors resolution with vram which what have this color depth not supported with video bios version and drivers version max colors are supported and resolutions with vram with the color choice notice two minor irritations under ndw when entry list highlighted such open menu and then deselected faint vertical line often remains where the left edge the highlighted rectangle used with word for windows when you use shading table the display shows the inverse the shading for example you shade the cell the display the printout the big killer bug using the borland integrated development environment the problem occurs when you click the turbo debugger icon use the debugger option the run command and the debugger application goes vga character mode designed the screen goes haywire and largely unreadable the turbo debugger display all garbled through trial and error have found that when the disrupted screen displayed you should alt spacebar followed the letter this instructs turbo debugger refresh the screen and does this satisfactorily wish didn have this the bug more than with the diamond drivers the same disruptive behavior happens with the standard vga driver that comes with windows there must something the video card that mishandles the vga mode the problem not monitor the same bug shows when use another monitor place usual one still like this video card and hoping its problems will remedied they offer year warranty swh apr
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how put this may dumb question but need put hard drive father either mfm rll ide know how hook but how tell the computer the geometry the drive you set the bios but doubt that how done thought might software with the controller card but the ide card for that saw didn come with any also how low level format once the computer assuming drive which needs formatting advthanksance rob rxg ultb isc rit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	the hay all has anyone out there heard any performance stats the fabled was wondering what performance compared the and pentium would any info would helpful later bob robert novitskey rrn cwru edu cwru cleve ohio computer engineer and programmer now seeking summer jobs
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	where can buy bios the market upgrade bios phoenix got new hard disk discovered bios doesn have type and would like know where can purchase one these things checked with the motherboard manufacturer for the curious from mylex and hearing the figure prompted least try shop around problem don know where shop around for something like this have heard that there bios speciality shop the south bay and been alleged that they advertise the microtimes did find the microtimes didn find the the shop can anybody help out this quest anybody who replies this thanks advance jeff chan these are opinions jeff ikos com not ikos netcom com would quite silly netcom ikos jeff was also company
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	non turbo speed nic percival nmp mfltd wrote just taken delivery mhz machine and very nice too one query the landmark speed when turbo something mhz thats not the problem the problem the speed when turbo off its mhz the equivalent car terms having nice porsche with button that turns into skateboard does anyone have clue what determines the relative performance turbo non turbo would like set give landmark speed about mhz with turbo off cheers should halved that turbo mhz
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how loopback connector made uwovax uwo wrote need know the pins connect make loopback connector for serial port can build one the loopback connector used test the serial port thanks for any help steve too skcgoh tartarus uwa edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hint vlb isa eisa motherboard article xnfz nmti com korenek nmti com gary korenek writes article ovwv lmo news iastate edu schauf iastate edu brian schaufenbuel writes looking buying some companion brand vlb isa eisa motherboards with hint chipsets has anybody had any experience with this board good bad any information would helpful thanks brian schaufenbuel believe that any eisa isa motherboard that uses the hint chipset limited bit eisa dma where real eisa dma bit the hint eisa dma has the ram addressing limitation isa for this reason would pass own one these hawk eisa isa and look ing replace for exactly this reason please double check this other words call the motherboard manufacturer and ask them the motherboard supports true bit eisa dma other than this limitation the motherboard works quite well using mine with dos windows and unix also with adaptec eisa scsi host adapter gary korenek korenek nmti com network management technology incorporated sugar land texas you are correct the motherboard manufacturer where usually buy boards says that they will have this problem fixed about two weeks brian schaufenbuel brian schaufenbuel there art which one government sooner learns helser halsted than that draining money from the pockets the ames people especially college students adam smith
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	floppy only reads what wrote article netxcom netx com pdressne netxcom netx com peter dressner writes have gateway with floppy the drive only reads files wrote the floppy floppies that have been formatted and contain files from other machines are unreadable also floppies that were written this defective floppy drive long time ago are also unreadable this sounds like head alignment problem too right does how does one about fixing are there alignment screws that you can adjust the very very first thing you make sure that all files the floppies that you can currently read the drive which aren already your another floppy you have two floppy drives get copied your and floppy your other drive you don this before fixing the alignment problem you have kissd those files goodbye well you can try misalign the drive back read your floppies but don count able generally head alignment something only trust good repair shop though there are have been diy guides nick fitzgerald applications consultant csc uni canterbury fitzgerald csc canterbury tel fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	gateway ethernet card drivers needed all could anybody please tell where might able find device drivers for couple older gateway ethernet cards don have the model number off hand but they have only bnc connector and header connector for novell keycard one has one installed looking using these with node copy net that picked swap meet love lantastic netware lite but poor college student and the price was right please reply via email haven had lot time for news because exams and such mike gordon loi mwgordon nyx edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	otronics attache luggable info needed all looking for some info regarding old pcmade otronics maybe oltronics called the attache this little beauty luggable with inch screen monochrome cga and floppies for serial ports has connectors one labled printer and can figure out the pinouts for them also don know they are standard com ports addressable com and com have figured out that they only work with dos something anyone can give some pointers this one most appreciative please reply via email can keep with news lately finals are coming you know thanks much mike gordon loi mwgordon nyx edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help with hooking irwin tape drive would like thank all those people who responded post would however like clear some things tape drive external also the connector the back the male pin variety result cannot easily find cost effective solution use the drive any advice will greatly appreciated would prefer email thanks tony shan tonys uiuc edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	for sale sound blaster card hurry well seems that have soundblaster card for sale since recently purchased sbpro the card comes complete mint condition with box manuals docs disks and original packaging make offer canadian inquiries prefered respond before april mail acps ryevm ryerson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	the ati ultra pro and bit windows drivers work article emx uucp reza magellan utexas edu alireza vali writes there just bought gateway system with meg ati ultra pro video card everything seems work fine except for the windows drivers for bit and and bit modes the fonts and icons start deteriorating after windows startup and within minutes use everything the screen totally unintelligible naturally called gateway tech support inquire about this the technician asked about the drivers and told him was version build told that the and bit drivers for the ati ultra pro simply not work this true simply amazed how could this the strange thing would have expected see some discussion here unless the subject has made the faq one very suspicious point that came later was that stated that none the windows accelerator boards have working and bit drivers for windows easily challenged him that because been running diamond bit mode home for months now and have tested and used the bit mode well then backed off and said well diamond has been working those drivers much longer anyway just wanted see anyone else had any trouble and what they did about any feedback will appreciated the system configuration gateway local bus megs ram scsi rom ultrastor local bus scsi controller ati ultra pro local bus with vram dos windows mach drivers version build have been able successfully use both and bit color modes gateway system although setup less complicated than yours sounds you may have hardware conflict problem your memory aperture above have heard rumors incompatibilities with that scsi card with variety systems call gateway and give them hell until they help you fix dan daniel matthew coleman internet dcoleman utxvms utexas edu dcoleman ccwf utexas edu the university texas austin decnet utxvms dcoleman electrical computer engineering bitnet dcoleman utxvms bitnet
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	bus hdd fdd controller ide hdd fdd controller article hpsgm sgp com taybh hpsgm sgp com beng hang tay writes buying quantum lps hardisk and deciding hdd fdd controller bit bus hdd fdd controller faster than bit ide hdd fdd controller card bus ide faster than isa ide the ide interface fundamentally nothing more than extension the isa bus and you hook bus work fast the slower the two meaning isa speed hear that the bus controller slower than ide controller the other hand wouldn expect slower richard krehbiel richk grebyn com will for until amigados for the comes along
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	need help identifying serial board need some help with multi port serial board unknown origin hoping someone knows what this board even better what the various switches and jumbers are used for anyway here description the card bit card although noticed that none the contacts the bit extension are connected anything has chips sockets and corresponding connecters labeled com com there also external female connector with pins there are banks switches banks switches and jumpers believe that have determined following traces that and switches all control the interrupt level for each the com ports are for irq are for irq and are for irq the other switches are beyond meager ability follow the only identification printed the board multi serial port board across the bottom there box for serial number but blank immediately below the words serial but not the box left for the are the numbers anyone have any clues your help greatly appreciated dwayne stratsft uucp have ways make you scream dwayne bailey intel advertisement strategic software the june doctor dobbs journal redford michigan
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	actix graphicsengine plus just bought actix graphics engine plus with megs not impressed have been having all sorts problems with the board various lock ups windows problems with the screen not centering flexibilty choosing synch rates for monitor buggy windows drivers lack driver anyone else has one these cards please mail looks like going try the ati ultra plus brad bach udel edu brad cain naf cain snow white udel edu university delaware electrical engineering cain freezer cns udel edu blah blah blah alt blah
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	drive won boot balog eniac seas upenn edu eric balog writes recently switched drive the problem while can read and write both the new and correctly can boot from floppy checked the cmos settings set for floppy seek boot and boot order once had floppy that did not have the systems files got message telling put disk systems disk the drive didn work when have systems disk the drive this what happens power and memory test light comes light comes followed short beep light comes for instant light comes again then nothing happens the light goes off there disk activity any kind and the screen blanks can even use ctrl alt del any suggestions have you checked the setting drive floppy the setting drive foppy the cable connecting the two drives the controller card can remember which two wires are swapped but they determine which drive hope this some help steve minyos
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	simms and sipps needed yuri atmos washington edu writes need simms and sipps but price should around piece assume you are talking about meg simms meg sipps with speed would take pieces per week you have that price fob port not waiting for offer with that price could only dream tiger waiting for offer yuri yulaev ave seattle home work fax internet yuri atmos washington edu uucp beaver atmos washington edu yuri
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	disk data compression and interleave does anyone have enough experience report whether disk data compression has any effect the optimal disk sector interleave offhand expect that the time required decompress disk data would increase the optimum disk sector interleave alan hinds
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	chaining ide drives trying set conner and quantum drive have the conner set the master and the quantum set the slave doesn work the other way around able access both drives boot from floppy but the drives will not boot themselves running msdos and have the conner partitioned primary dos and formatted with system files have tried all different types setups and even changed ide controller cards boot from floppy everything works great except the booting part the system doesn report error message anything just hangs there does anyone have any suggestions has somebody else run into similar problem was thinking that might have update the bios one the drives this possible any suggestions answers would greatly appreciated please reply jason badry badry ualberta
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article apr julian uwo wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes stuff deleted the lowly low density original fdd card used dma and the hdd controller doesn that makes real sense actually does make reasonable amount sense fixed disk sectors are buffered the controller and transferring them memory with rep insw whatever the instruction called quite efficient single instruction goes fast the controller cpu know how use the bus since the wasn cached the bus likely critical resource relative cpu performance and possible that dma bus interference would cause much more loss cpu cycles for computing does the rep insw sequence the floppy the other hand not buffered that using the cpu for floppy data transfer was done the the way really does stink wally bass
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	date stuck article apr oec orbital dialix oecjtb oec orbital dialix john bongiovanni writes stuff deleted did once hear that order for the date advance something like clock has make get date system call apparently the clock hardware interrupt and bios don this date advance automatically the get date call notices that midnight reset flag has been set and then then advances the date anybody with more info there are two problems the bios tod routine which updates the bios clock uses only bit for day increment second wrapping the clock past midnight will get lost one calls the bios read the clock the meantime and the bios resets the day wrap indicator the first get date call from anybody after the wrap indicator has been set unless the first bios get date call after midnight done the dos kernel which the only part dos which knows how increment the date the day wrap indication normally lost guess that kevin menu system uses bios calls read the clock order display the time and hence the entity which causes the day wrap indication get lost even the menu system notices the day wrap which think indicated non zero value there really isn any particularly good way tell dos about that dos can update the day the menu system should use dos calls get the time which would cause the dos kernel the bios call and the wrap indicator would hence processed properly possibly though the menu system can easily use dos calls for time because dos not reentrant and perhaps time incrementing ofters occur while the menu system inside some other dos call wally bass
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	amd clones now legal poe wharton upenn edu writes friend mine called the phone and told was wathcing cnn and saw report that the ruling prohibiting amd from selling their clones has been thrown out making legal for amd ship the can anyone out there verify this thanks advance phil yep this was the news great news for consumers bad news for intel
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks with the stealth vlb get winmarks with ver
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	atari mono and vga article apr oregon uoregon edu arosborn oregon uoregon edu alan osborn writes article apr tdb max tdb max brante writes have anybody succeded converting atari monomchrome monitor into mono vga monitor please let know exactly how you did and what graphics card you used wish could help posted similar question about two weeks ago got response all asked locally friendly atari store was told that should possible but that they had idea how might done nor did they particularly care investigate please anyone has any suggestions post them you might try asking one the comp sys ibm echos the best one may comp sys ibm hardware say this because the conversion seems more geared toward user wanting use that monitor than atari user who already can use the monitor unless maybe they want really wild converting the monitor vga then using vga monitor with falcon for graphics cards assuming that the atari monitor can modified adapted handle vga signals you should probably able use any vga card least with res around haven tried this but that would guess robert anisko anisko usdtsg daytonoh ncr com you might want price mono vga monitors anyways may cheaper that route than the conversion besides with the falcon and beyond vga svga multisync monitors will probably the way
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	multi card with uart possible buy serial card with the uart built rather than having buy them separately and socketing them current card uses correct number the braindead ones anyway also controls two floppy drives and two ide hard drives ideally like get new multi card that had serial ports with and could also control another ide would have have configurable addresses for both the serial ports and the ide controller could exist with existing card does such beast exist now the hard part where can get one australia preferably brisbane thanks geoff green spart
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	problems with toshiba cdrom article ratatosk uninett hktth nho hydro com writes article apr news columbia edu imj cunixa columbia edu imad jureidini writes recently purchased the toshiba cdrom own adaptec scsi card and have far failed get the cdrom work under dos one the aspi drivers think the aspicd supports norst paramter which means not reset the scsi bus when loads this fixed the problem friend mine was having with his adaptec tosh regards terje worked thank you very much imj cunixa columbia edu imad hexabyte jureidini the ultimate knight grand priest the secrets the undefined
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cpu temperature cpu activity this may very naive question but there any basis for the claim that cpu will get hotter when computationally intensive job running friend claims that there will little difference the temperature idle cpu and cpu running computationally intensive job lino montuno
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	test don read gosh think just installed virus was called dos don copy that floppy burn just love windows crash
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	color drivers would appreciate the driver name from cica which functions color driver for quadtel video card the type chip chipset used would suffice well umeister washington edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	jumbo backup problems article apr den mmc com snorman den mmc com writes have colorado memory systems jumbo tape backup unit gateway tower system have found the supplied backup capability fairly unreliable approx cases out have had the backup fail one point another often hanging the middle writing the tape seek errors drive communication errors seem most common use the dos backup software from colorado memory systems should return the drive get some better backup software reformat the tapes using cms tapes any hints would appreciated this stuff time consuming over and over again until cooperates been using identical setup except for the tower config for several months now from previous discussions the net the first thing check for dma conflicts with other devices especically you got any funky ones next off suspect your tape try fresh one good luck tim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	diamond stealth giving winmarks mag only got around winmarks when they tested the steal sounds like you are jamesc someone asks you are god you say yes
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how loopback connector made uwovax uwo writes need know the pins connect make loopback connector for serial port can build one the loopback connector used test the serial port thanks for any help from recent byte magazine got the following question and part the answer deleted you are handy with soldering iron the loopback plugs are easy make serial nine pin port use female connector and connect pins and for serial pin ports you need female connector with pins and connected test centronics pin parallel port you need connect pins and male connector stan wszola haven tried use own risk kkc etobkkc hisoy etn ericsson
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any comments eisa bus book hello have the following list books about isa eisa buses isa system architecture tom shanley don anderson mindshare press eisa system architecture tom shanley don anderson mindshare press isa eisa isa isa and eisa timing and specs edward solari copyright isbn bus design edward solari copyright isbn interfacing the ibm eggebrecht lewis copyright you have any comments any them please reply mail thanks advance manolis stratakis
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	smc arcnet cars for sale have new smc arcnet cards for sale they are brand new each wow cup portal com wally waggoner
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	hayes fax card for sale have like new hayes fax for sale offer trade wally waggoner wow cup portal com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	list ide harddisk specs configuration ide harddisks last update collected carsten grammes hucg uni and published regularly comp sys ibm hardware there explicitly warranty that the given settings are correct harmless only collect not check for myself there always the possibility that the settings may destroy your hardware since hope however that only well minded people undergo the effort posting their settings the chance applicability exists you should agree disagree with some setting let know immediately order update the list you possess not mentioned here which you know bios and jumper settings please mail them for the next update the list only ide bus harddisks will accounted for not specified the landing zone should set equal the number cylinders not specified the write precompensation should set there are bioses that don even ask for another statement maybe right ide harddisk don have precomp and lzone the precomp built parameter and lzone isn used because most not every ide disk has autopark the jumpers names are given printed the board often only jumper number means the jumper zero means that the jumper left open one means that the jumper closed conner peripherals drive geometry ide conner drives are low level formatted the factory only necessary run setup fdisk and dos format model heads cylinders sectors pcomp zone type table led table table jumper settings jumper settings single drive jumper act and single drive jumper master drive jumper act and dsp master drive jumper dsp slave drive jumpers installed slave drive jumpers installed table all conner mbyte drives use jumper settings drive type all conner mbyte drives use drive type single master drive jumper slave drive jumpers installed universal translate select drive type that close but does not exceed the megabyte capacity the drive the drive will translate the megabyte capacity that you have selected led pin pin pin pin pin pin pin pin when installed conner master and caviar slave both with and without the jumper the caviar had seemingly normal behaviour however when doing writes the caviar once while would overwrite directories etc using fastback was almost impossible the workaround install the caviar the master and the conner the slave details fujitsu drives standard heads physical cyl physical sec trk speed rpm capacity psu cnh led cnh cnh connector way ide pin function position active mode slave present mode pin iochrdy cnh jumpers pin reserved drive system drive system pin irq pin reserved pin irq pin reserved pin function position slave drive mode cnh jumpers master drive mode ecc bytes ecc bytes pin function position write protect enabled cnh jumpers write protect disabled reserved key guess marks factory default setting for jumper bios settings bios setting for the system cylinders sectors and heads was trying set ide drive the subject above slave drive for conner drive and contacting the support company gave this answer which works the factory default off off off off off this sets the drive single drive setting off off off off makes slave drive has been set off off all along model cylinders heads sectors capacity million bytes there are switches the switch block these drives only them have use that aware from manual master slave master off slave ecc bytes bytes off bytes write protect disabled off enabled channel ready disabled off enabled have idea about the function and the values listed with are the factory default settings kalok bios cyl heads sectors kalok bios cyl heads sectors the following jumper settings have been reported for but are probably also valid for other kalok drives single same row pin the ide connector master disk slave these pairs pins are the righthand side the disk model cyls heads sectors precomp landing zone lxt lxt lxt lxt lxt jumpers are follows the bottom the drive looks like this well sort power ide connector single drive dual drive system pin numbers jumper system master slave slave drive remove remove install activity led optional optional optional slave present remove remove optional master drive remove install remove sync spindle remove optional remove only one drive the master array should have this jumper installed maxtor closed closed maxtor open open maxtor closed open maxtor open closed maxtor closed closed maxtor open open maxtor closed open maxtor open closed maxtor jumpers for the above drives channel ready open disabled close enabled see above see above operation status open normal close factory power data cable idle mode latch open disabled close enabled drive model open close ecc bytes open bytes close bytes master slave drive master and alone closed closed drive master two drives closed open drive slave two drives open closed maxtor default power bios translation parameters others possible cyl hds spt mbytes there are two sets jumpers set and set with the power and ide connector toward you the set numbered left right and the set numbered bottom top the only jumper normal interest jumper for only drive single drive system master drive dual drive system remove the jumper for slave drive dual drive system dummy and may used store the spare shunt the drive configured for slave mode jumpers are factory reserved abnormal operation may occur jumpered jumper sync spindle enabled disabled open disabled jumper sync slave master open slave jumper channel ready open disabled maxtor ide self parking universal translate drive type user defineable cyl hds wpc wpc and optional master closed slave open use for shunt storage single closed drive unformatted formatted platters heads cylinders performance both track track read msec track track write msec average msec max msec avg rotational latency msec rotational speed rpm data transfer rate upto mbytes sec internal data rate mbits sec bios settings cyl heads sectors master cyl heads sectors slave cyl heads sectors the emulates both master and slave jumpers labelled the drive only these are used only drive emulates both master slave out drive master slave present out drive slave out out drive master slave present single drive microscience model heads cylinders size model size sec cyl miniscribe model cap cyc rwc wpc enc rate access spt comments master slave single shunt storage nec bios cyl head sect nec bios cyl head sect nec bios cyl head sect wpcom lzone jumper for all above nec drives single master slave there have been reported difficulties using caviar master and nec drives slave the other way works logical specs for quantum drives compliments computer brokers canada model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors track lps lps lps lps lps legend jumper installed jumper jumpers meaning single drive configuration master dual drive slave dual drive self seek test jumpers meaning slave when the master quantum prodrive other than slave prodrive mode slave when master non quantum drive not used master drive pdiag mode checking dasp for slave master pdiag mode using check slave present master mode using check slave present single drive lps jumpers meaning slave standard pdiag mode for compatibility with drives that use pdiag line handle master slave communications slave prodrive mode compat without using pdiag line self test self test master pdiag mode using dasp check for slave master mode using dasp check for slave master pdiag mode using check for slave without checking dasp master mode using check for slave without checking dasp while spec form marked the jumper name labeled lps drive the quantum els series model cap avg acc cylinders heads sectors track els els els els write precomp for all quantum drives probably significance landing zone cylinders straps els drive master only use master with slave and some cases slave strap information for and series hard disk drives drive types model cyls hds sectors trk blocks formatted cap mbyets mbyets mbyets mbyets mbyets mbyets mbyets mbyets mbyets mbyets mbyets link options order install the rodime series drives the dumpers for the single dual drive and led operation the drive need set described the relevant product specification single drive environment the drive described master dual drive environment the drives are described master and slave this due the protocal the takes place between the two drives when performing diagnostics there are four links and adjacent the way interface connector they have the following functions and are described order viewed from the end the drive with the first jumper described nearest the way interface connector led when fitted this jumper connects the led drive pin the interface this allows led connected the interface external current limiting resistor needs fitted series with the led when this option selected the value the resistor will dependant the led type chosen but will the range ohms ohms dual drives this jumper must fitted when two drives are attached single bus fallows communication across the way interface connector indicating the master drive the presence slave master when fitted this signifies that the drive jumpered master there are two drives connected single bus then only one may jumpered this way iochrdy when fitted this connects the iochrdy signal the drive fitted when the drive used host systems that have higher data transfer rate than the drive greater than mbytes per second when using interleave this jumper not normally fitted most hosts transfer lower rate than mbytes per second there are four possible master slave configurations which drive may jumpered master single drive with led interface fitted master single drive without led interface only fitted master dual drive without led interface fitted slave dual drive without led interface jumpers fitted master dual drive with led interface fitted slave dual drive with led interface only fitted the master drive will delay power for approximately two seconds reduce power surges applications where dual drives are used the other connections for led will found close the way connector the other end the drive this led driver not affected the link options internal current limiting resistor the drive for this led driver refer the product specification for further details there list most seagate including mfm scsi esdiand ide every simtel mirror under msdos dskutl seagate zip contains info about the following drives model cyls heads sect precmp lzone capacity physical bios ami award phoenix connectors and jumpers jumper function act selected ext led off slv present selected two hdd off single hdd power power signal jumpers master single off slave with units used rdy not output off rdy output master slave settings jumper single jumpered master off not jumpered slave caviar series name size cylinders heads sectors wdac wdac wdac wdac wdac wdac please note that these are the recommended cmos parameters all the disks support called dynamic translation and should thus able work with any parameters having fewer sectors than the total number sectors the disk now according the manual the jumper settings are follows jumper single master slave slave with conner maybe there are kinds caviar floating around your jumpers read and then use jumper single master slave there have been reported difficulties using caviar master and nec drives slave the other way works when installed conner master and caviar slave both with and without the jumper the caviar had seemingly normal behaviour however when doing writes the caviar once while would overwrite directories etc using fastback was almost impossible the workaround install the caviar the master and the conner the slave bios settings cyln heads sect lzone wenn sie sie braucht drive master cable drive slave second drive conner drive jumper set this the only drive useful telephone numbers miniscribe maxtor info tech support fax back bbs they list their number maxtor quantum support fax bbs seagate info tech support fax back bbs last but not least could help you with little collection and you live part the world far away from how about postcard for pinboard will surely answer carsten grammes experimental physics universitaet saarbruecken saarbruecken germany
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	protected mode there anybody who has can point the right direction any information about protected mode also interested protected mode viewed from point view thanks advance kjetil kolin
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	parity error system halted anyone have any ideas recently bought amd the motherboard booklet says the board have simms board the machine also uses super ide card model course niether the motherboard the card booklet clearly state who the manufacurers are also using trident svga card anyway that all the pertinent info can think problem that the computer often freezes displays parity error system halted messages depending whether set the memory parity error checking disabled enabled the setup the bios makes sense its ami bios must ami board just took back the dealer and they replaced all the simms but keep getting the same error more frequently now all worked the dealer and didn start screwing till got home figures tried take out all the simms and even inserted them reverse order making sure that the connections were solid suspicion jumps this damn all one controller serial parallel game port card the motherboard god forbid can anyone help thanks peace david geller gelldav elof acc iit edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	any info cyrix dru chip cyrix have released pin conpatible clone designed upgrade old mhz the chips are also clockdoubling thus mhz can transformed into mhz with single chip upgrade unfortunately australia the dru sells for mhz and mhz about the price motherboard with two vlb slots how much these thing cost the states how well they work thanks for any info steven pemberton notebook sjp ogre apana org
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	what bus clk speed article apr debbie nctu edu nctu edu wei shi hwu writes robert desonia robert desonia hal ann arbor wrote there one param the bios setup that says bus clk have set the default but was able get work with the was something didnt want mess anything set back also the didnt boot with set what exactlt dows this and should leave think impossible let bus operated too much more than mhz have neat mother board and set the bus clock mhz but the stopped when boot correct that clk means how many wait states think all depends your motherboard and the cards you have your system your stopped boot probably because your controller can handle the faster bus speed have set bus divider clk that close mhz can gain singificant performace increase video card and harddisk transfer rate when boost the bus speed and system work flawlessly under this setting and you know what when clk mhz bus refuse boot just cent jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide low level format article news cso uiuc edu mandel romulus ehs uiuc edu hector mandel writes accidentally tried low level format western digital caviar drive there public domain shareware utility available that will allow fix thanks expert this but pretty sure there way recover this ide drive has mapping information written directly drives when you low level format the information itself gone well don think you can get back unless you send back western digital and ask them refurbish for you jim
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help blowing the stack everyone have question regarding stack programming turbo and program rather large model large too keep getting errors that running out memory after while running the program when compile the program says have meg ram can seem explain why crashes all doing running loop while the operator idle and after while sitting will screw all the variables this leads believe that stack filling and overflowing does the program take memory when calling void functions that not return anything have been working this problem for days and would really appreciate any responce this not the correct newsgroup will gladly post but this the only could find thanks advance sean mars email mars carroll edu carroll college waukesha
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help advice own clone which does all want except run game want buy the game says requires with game tech support says game will run but uses some digitized graphics which would make run really slow card game hoyles classic card games digitized graphics are photos artwork game fictional card players what can speed how this game would run short motherboard upgrade processor accelerator card mimicking can run mhz any advice would greatly appreciated gil guf psuvm psu edu
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	modems and uarts ryan jeffrey baucom rjbaucom eos ncsu edu wrote what uart don know the exact meaning uart but think something like universal arithmetic receiver transmitter normally the older boards have uart board those chips generate irq for every char they received the uart has internal byte buffer with the right software installed generates irq every chars what does for high speed modems necessary for higher throughput you ran dos you don need because dos runs only one task time and the whole cpu power could used for the transfer but you are running multitasking such unix etc windows the cpu cannot work the whole time with one task the result are lost characters broken transmissions because timeouts only for internal modems the only diffrence that internal modems have the uart board whereas external modems are connected the computer over serial port which has the uart board you have any experience with higher speed modems please let know what you think also any particular brand name reccomended will cheapo clone just well use zyxel with uart under coherent very satisfied with but think that nearly everyone satisfied with his own modem michael michael jester gun michael gerhards preussenstrasse germany neuss voice
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide cable just bought new ide hard drive for system with the one already had problem this system only had ide cable for one drive had buy cable with two drive connectors and consequently have switch cables the problem the new hard drive manual refers matching pin the cable with both pin the drive itself and pin the ide card but for the life cannot figure out how tell which way plug the cable align these secondly the cable has like connector two ends and one between them figure one end goes the controler and then the other two into the drives does matter which plug into the master drive and which into the slave any help appreciated thanks
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help adding scsi drive have computer with seagate ide drive and controler built into the motherboard want add scsi drive quantum prodrive formatted have documentation all and need your help understand here the process adding such drive could you please tell right buy scsi contoler which one know adaptec good but they are kind expensive are there any good boards the region want compatible with and unix possible also have seen the net that there are scsi and scsi drives this true does the adapter need the same the drive what type drive the quantum connect the drive the adapter via scsi cable and the power cable have worry about the power supply think have watts and all powering are two floppies and the seagate drive setup the bios recognize the drive the second drive what type drive this don have the numbers for this drive format and create partitions the drive use format fdisk think that ide drives can low level formatted the same with scsi how exactly does fdisk work have reduced msdos manual clone obliges and there mention fdisk ideally would want the drive partitioned two partitions and how this well that seems all there anythiing forgetting any help really appreciated lost eric ebosco oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	perstor system disk controller information needed does anybody out there have used have controller from perstor system inc which out business believe friend received old which happens have such controller and having hard time trying add another the card believe the controller supposed control mfm drives rll drives here the model info the card but any other similar model will probably perstor system inc model rev ecn would appreciate your reply directly mail address below thanks ray rngai oracle com raymond ngai rngai oracle com application system analyst oracle parkway vertical applications division redwood shores oracle corporation fax
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help choosing scsi controler need buy scsi controler for machine use with quantum harddrive know that adaptec good but they are kind expensive essentially want controller the range that can use with this drive plan use windows and later when comes out any reccomendations appreciated eric ebosco oracle com
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	cents keystroke where why does keyboard not have cents key like have cents worth boaring david china cat bbs cat david sed csc com uunet mimsy anagld cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes scsi scsi controller chip also called scsi bit with burst this advertised scsi byte for the and these speeds not the mac the have been following this mess for while excuse need for clarification iam thinking seriously ide scsi and this thread could not have come better time the above quote scsi scsi controller chip are talking about scsi device scsi controller are talking about scsi controller that had chip upgrade using the same chip that scsi controller board thanks david china cat bbs cat david sed csc com uunet mimsy anagld cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	run box cover biernat rtsg mot com tim biernat writes interested getting the pulse this group regarding extended operation with the cover removed from the enclosure there are reasons considering this including quick access jumpers during complex card setups concern that without complete enclosure direct the cooling flow air from the fan hot spots may develop motherboard elsewhere has intake air vents the front the enclosure right level these vents would removed along with the top cover this scenario rendering airflow from the fan pretty useless however short periods this mode don seem heat things too much but conclusions are far from scientific tim ran out cardboard box for more than year with major effects yeah case all sitting static bag other than the noise from the poersupply ran pretty good for cooling problems bought inch fan and turned full and set the output directly the motherboard did finally get case though and still running the parts with ill effects also had kids spill things the had cat leaving hair the etc etc and the two major concerns are keeping static away and keeping the cool enjoy david china cat bbs cat david sed csc com uunet mimsy anagld cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	how search for bad memory chips rnichols cbnewsg att com robert nichols writes steps deleted interesting idea but the worst case data patterns developed test magnetic media are totally different than the patterns used detect common faults memory chips was having major memory problems few monthes ago getting parity error system halted error message windows ran plus check diagnose well several shareware memory checkers had total meg simm system these store bought shareware memory diagnostics either ran fine without errors found error some address that couldn place memory chip out exahperation came with the now deleted steps find bad memory chips found moral never buy memory stamped not for sensitive critical applications the back anyway did filter out all the bad memory chips using combinations the meg chips and creating ram drive test although dodn alleviate parity error problems windows did manage find bad memory chips this manner has never failed find bad chip for and the commercial shareware have always faild either not finding the error pointing addreww which have idea what chip man typing stinks today and don feel like futzing around with this line editor david china cat bbs cat david sed csc com uunet mimsy anagld cat david
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	kaypro jumper settings received kaypro computer dos without manual that describes the jumpers the motherboard came with and but the computer setup does not recognize the extra does anyone know this computer capable greater than the main board and what jumpers are required expand some specs kaypro main board assy number phoenix bios thanks advance doug
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi article austin ibm com guyd austin ibm com guy dawson writes int same article the would will get plug and play scsi from the article seems you get plug and play scsi only since scsi full implimentation has ten not devices beleive this last bit just plain wrong believe you are right both scsi and scsi support devices the bus normally that would the host controller and targets each which may have logical units luns paul burry voice internet pburry cse dnd fax uucp uunet cunews cse dnd pburry
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	vga card for fixed frequency monitor has anyone connected high res fixed frequency monitor their have mitubishi monitor that does but won any other resolutions all the video cards designed for this sort thing are very expensive has anyone done with svga card know can done just question getting the card the right resolution and frequency like use mono hercules monitor dos command line monitor and switch the mitsu for windows windows under linux bsd any suggestions would greatly appreciated mail please thanks steve wechsler zaphod src src linet org call lady hawke castle bbs please respond queries via mail post also you like because site purges news much faster than can keep with this message was made from recycled materials
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	scsi ide all scsi cards for dos systems require separate device driver loaded into memory for each scsi device hooked will this also true the bit thanks randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	ide scsi from article inndqc dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith write article qpu uinnbt dns nmsu edu bgrubb dante nmsu edu grubb writes wlsmith valve heart rri uwo wayne smith writes since the mac uses only scsi for hard drives yes the figure includes hundred for scsi drivers this sloppy people and dumb what group this this not mac group nice you delete both your responce and the item that prompted whit just bought quantum for mac home paid for tons stuff deleted scsi ide question wow you guys are really going wild this ide scsi thing and think great like lots people really like increase data transfer rate from the hard drive right now have ide drive seagate and what would say standard not special cache believe ide controller card isa currently thinking about adding another the range and thinking hard you should hear those gears grinding head about buying scsi drive scsi for the future benefit believe getting something like sec transfer right now according how would this number compare bought the state the art scsi card for isa and the state the art scsi hard drive the wailing est system could hope for obviously money factors into this choice well any other but what would you want use your isa system and how much would cost along those lines what kind transfer rate could see with ide were buy the top the line ide caching controller for and how much would cost actually have pas and could what waste guess would hook scsi through scsi port which yields optimum sec actually have borrowed fujitsu hooked through now and own the trantor drivers for the pas scsi port this scsi port scsi port how could tell the fujitsu scsi are all scsi scsi thanks for any comments these rephrased questions randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	isa bus scsi ide wow you guys are really going wild this ide scsi thing and think great however think that some people such myself would benefit from answers the simple question which would you choose and why like lots people really like increase data transfer rate from the hard drive right now have ide drive seagate and what would say standard not special cache believe ide controller card isa currently thinking about adding another the range and thinking hard you should hear those gears grinding head about buying scsi drive scsi for the future benefit believe getting something like sec transfer right now according how would this number compare bought the state the art scsi card for isa and the state the art scsi hard drive the wailing est system could hope for obviously money factors into this choice well any other but what would you want use your isa system and how much would cost along those lines what kind transfer rate could see with ide were buy the top the line ide caching controller for and how much would cost actually have pas and could what waste guess would hook scsi through scsi port which yields optimum sec actually have borrowed fujitsu hooked through now and own the trantor drivers for the pas scsi port this scsi port scsi port how could tell the fujitsu scsi are all scsi scsi thanks for any comments randy
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	request for input multispin rom drives looking into getting external reasonably fast avg access time multispin rom drive that supports photo multi session has audio output and scsi interface for connection the pas scsi port does anyone have any comments experiences warnings recommendations they like share concerning the texel and toshiba txm and others thanks hal brand brand gov
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	comments video blaster creative labs article wpsun uucp mikgr wpsun uucp michael grant writes article apr ultb isc rit edu mej ritvax isc rit edu writes edu heiser acs edu bill heiser writes article rdy chinet chi randy chinet chi randy suess rites the video blaster doesn work with the ati graphics ultra pro doesn work with system ram are you serious can use video blaster what are the alternatives other than removing memory get better one hows about the win thing the wailer the gates dawn banshee cats ucsc edu just who are you calling froofroo head just friend the beast banshee ucscb ucsc edu banshee ucscb bitnet good perfer watchit can run dos and windows win only run windows sorry still good watchit will not work with local bus video will not work any high reolution modes either the people who make the card assure that they will have card available june that supports both local bus and res btw does anyone know the name the company who makes watchit phone bbs internet thanks michael grant mikgr wordperfect com mikgr wpsun uunet net have promovie spectrum seems work very nicely with video for windows with setup pas and orchid the board could handle frame eric
comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware	help installing second ide drive another possibility that the one already partitioned into two seperate drives and and the cmos asks for drive and drive setup info rather than drive and drive like most others seen could this confusing things need help the drive came bereft any docs except for some info for the cmos setup the controller has little piece paper about the size index card cannibalized the cable one those with connector each end and the one the middle looks like serial connection now lost many many thanks advance this practically emergency have two papers this thing for monday help william barnes suranet operations wbarnes sura net voice fax disclaimer don speak for suranet and they don speak for been told our local computer guru that you can this unless you perform low level format your existing hard drive and set your system for two hard drives from the beginning took him his word and have not tried find out any more about because not going back everything just add another hdd anyone knows for sure what the scoop would like know also thanks advance also bill willis you bought your ide drive from dealer you shouldn have perform low level format even the already partitioned into and fdisk will automatically assign the and change the partition drive check the jumper settings and cmos setup particular the correct number cylinders and tracks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	nutek faces apple wrath article read article davea davea xetron com david alverson writes believe apple has patent the region features quickdraw mac clone would have implement regions this why apple comment was that they believe not possible make mac clone without infringing their patents they may have other patents like this apple has patented their implementation regions which presumably includes the internal data structure which has never been officially documented apple apple cannot patent the concept region guessing that either nutek reverse engineered apple internal data structure for regions dunno this would hold court they came with their own data structure the latter then they won able draw pict files containing regions besides pict files there aren many places where regions are stored disk quicktime movies perhaps long the region isn being stored disk and transferred from mac nutek clone vice versa doesn matter nutek uses completely different internal data structure remember reading that apple also has patent their adb hardware and that the nutek clones would therefore lacking adb port what other patents does apple have the mac joe schwartz mail xor acm rpi edu xor clotho acm rpi edu mapinfo corp broadway these are own opinions any similarity the troy opinions mapinfo corporation purely coincidental
comp.sys.mac.hardware	your opinion the laserwriter select wife has one these have not had much chance fiddle with but comparison our laserwriters with canon engines she complains that the print too light for her taste the difference quite apparent even when the print setting the select adjusted the darkest possible level don find objectionable and indeed rather like but warned that some people don care for and considerably different recall that years ago there were lots debates over write black write white engines when dealing with tex drivers something like that going here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	floptical question looking into buying floptical drive and was wondering what experience people have with the drives from iomega pli mass microsystems procom these seem the main drives the market any advice also heard about some article macworld sep think about flopticals could someone post summary they have thanks advance reply post email whichever you prefer nizam nizam arain what makes the universe hard comprehend internet narain uiuc edu that there nothing nextmail narain sumter cso uiuc edu compare with
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris cache bernoulli box article apr physc byu edu goblec physc byu edu writes just tried running bernoulli box off centris and the driver software only seems work when the cache off get the message this not macintosh disk you wish initialize have iomega driver there newer version that works with the there something doing wrong clark goble goblec theory byu edu have version which believe was needed for machine you should able get the newest version calling their tech support you have modem you can get the driver from their bbs dean dean clark internet dfclark sandia gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	please help find video hardware article crossposted from comp sys author was gordon lang posted apr gmt article crossposted from comp sys ibm hardware author was gordon lang posted apr gmt need device either isa board subsystem which will take two rgb video signals and combine them according template the template can simple rectangular window with signal one being used for the interior and signal two for the exterior but beleive fancier harware may also exist which not want exclude from search know this sort hardware exists for ntsc etc but need for rgb please email and post any leads gordon lang glang smail srl ford com glang holo srl ford com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ftp site for radius software hey all does anyone know can ftp get the newest version radiusware and soft pivot from radius bought pivot monitor but has old version this software and won work and radius said would weeks until delivery thanks chuck
comp.sys.mac.hardware	your opinion the laserwriter select this model one the two low cost laser printers that apple just introduced thinking getting one use home have any you had any experience with this printer does have level postscript you bought one are you happy with john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office facilities management usmail maryland ave chicago
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how you like the apple color onescanner all set buy one these for the office use for scanning color photographs and for optical character recognition played with the original grayscale onescanner and were very pleased the color model comparable quality also what brand ocr software would you recommend leaning toward caere omnipage any better ideas thanks john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office facilities management usmail maryland ave chicago
comp.sys.mac.hardware	file server mac saw once article about new line macs configured work more optimally file servers anyone know any more details
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook duo batteries article usenet ucs indiana edu kssimon silver ucs indiana edu kenneth steven simon wrote hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes knowledge there way fully discharge duo battery the program powerstrip which freeware has option called quick discharge you can find the mac archives probably sumex aim stanford edu mac archive umich edu good luck kenneth simon department sociology kssimon indiana edu indiana university hidden option using powerstrip caputo right now and can find any quick discharge option definitely mac archive umich edu cause submitted ron wong the santa cruz operation net comm segment mgr encinal street box fax devprogram marketing mgr santa cruz mail uunet sco ronaldw ronaldw sco com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale macintosh for sale apple macintosh ram system installed rasterops bit video card for apple monitor targus carrying case after offers the region pounds the north london area contact mark allerton mail pascal cix compulink mark bilpin phone evenings weekends office hours mark allerton srl data mark bilpin pascal cix compulink
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound input couple questions for the multimedia set does anybody have phone fax number mail address name principal cedar technologies dublin new hampshire all have post office box number and want ask couple questions before sending them some money any info much appreciated running which came with microphone there any way other than using macrecorder with soundedit cedar digitizer with some similar software input recorded sound into mac trying play some very short interview clips hypercard stack thanks for any and all help kathy mctaggart
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help install ram centris had asked everyone about problems installing meg simm and meg simm centris but the folks the local apple store called the folks cupertino and found that you can have simms different speeds one machine even they are both fast enough meg and meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want know jason
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video ram questions article apr cbnews att com jbr cbnews att com joseph brownlee writes could someone post definitive answer about the vram configuration for the and presumably the and well there seems lot confusion about this issue like know what kind simms are the vram simms pin etc there only one physical size for vram simms unlike dram simms which come many many sizes and pinouts although they come with differing amounts vram them the ones you need are simms are organized and have two vram chips them this the only size which the quadra and centris machines can use how many vram simm slots are there two what rules any must followed filling the slots pairs sizes must match etc both simm slots must filled putting simm only one slot does nothing for you how fast must they for the and for the there any other relevant information there are certain vram chip manufacturers whose parts are not compatible with the quadra and centris video hardware make sure that the source you get them from guarantees compatiblity general works will work please don reply unless you have the correct information many thanks advance for helping eliminate some noise from this group trust dale adams apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors related note will the work centris with internal video and give the multiple resolutions this very curious about thanks kevin tieskoetter technical support drake looniversity microfrontier inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	nutek email does nutek anyone nutek have email address not why not good things books robert heinlein music enya computers apple humor dave barry thursday nights nbc and scotland scot salmon scot jlc com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors article mar news media mit edu fredm media mit edu fred martin writes part posting removed the sony cpd has better video circuitry than either the other two monitors can display apple vga vga though this has flicker and apple refresh flicker all might able display apple but not sure about this and the pixels would real small anyway might not that useful note that with either sony monitor you will need the proper adapter which both connects the video signals properly but also informs the macintosh video hardware which display mode use part posting removed fred martin fredm media mit edu ames epistemology and learning group mit media lab cambridge usa assuming that the cabling tells the mac startup what kind monitor connected now think seen ads popular mac magazines for products not sure just monitor just video card package both that allow you change resolutions the fly restarting the mac you were buy would possible switch back and forth between apple and apple without restarting the mac this strictly hardware startup function can software intervene does the mac hardware occasionally probe the cable setting and switch automatically thanks eric ivancich eecs umich edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rom multisession article pgifo efb msuinfo msu edu gary cal msu edu writes said know multisession rom necessary you more photos but what just writable rom drive and second session you need one for that too you write second time you need have multi session capability read the second session whether photos just data whatever here simplified way looking the first session has the directory structure burned some tracks the second session has newer directory structure but the first directory still exists because you cannot change only add you put that normal drive and will only look the first directory and think has found all data multisession kindof means that the drive will look for the last directory written the disc older systems look only for the directory not taking multiple directories into account lex van sonderen philips interactive media
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disappointed cie approximately four months ago purchased quantum lps from cie for after two months the drive started having problems first there were intermittent freezes then corrupted files and resources then silverlining wouldn even recognize the drive got rma from cie and exchanged the new drive for reconditioned one well about month has passed now and the second drive having problems often when boot iisi get the flashing question mark sometimes then insert the silverlining program can get recognize the drive making scan over and over for drives that point can restart the iisi and boot from the called cie again and they given another rma their tech support people tell that silverlining doesn see the drive there definite hardware problem given that this the second bad drive four months asked cie send new one but they said also within three weeks after purchased original drive cie dropped the price over can accept that drive two may bad and know that hardware vendors make practice sending reconditioned replacements when they repairs and understand that the nature the computer industry lends itself sudden price fluctuations nevertheless taken together the convergence these facts events have left bad taste mouth should have added above that when asked cie transfer the contents current drive the one they will send think the data still good shape and have again reinstall everything from floppies they said would cost for data recovery seems that reconditioned hardware should sold reconditioned discounted price and that replacements for new hardware gone bad still covered under day warranty should new feel little helpless about all this don mean necessarily flame cie their support staff have always been friendly and sometimes even helpful but mon sometimes little extra customer service goes long way sent letter cie customer service when the first drive was returned and asked them for credit the price difference since had purchased the drive three weeks before they slashed the price told them would like apply the credit toward the purchase another cie product they didn even have the courtesy reply one way the other what the moral this story not sure but know won buy any other products from cie the future bill krauthammer ehg umiami miami edu please don email post about how good your cie product and service has been not suggesting that they are not good company anything like that all saying that had disappointing experience with them and taking business elsewhere the future
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wyse terminal emulator there wyse terminal emulator comms toolbox kit available the net somewhere thanks vince
comp.sys.mac.hardware	nutek faces apple wrath article read article mar leland stanford edu tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen writes there isn any copyright equivalent the res ipsa doctrine but there something kind similar show infringement one element you need show that the defendant copied from your work you lucky you have direct evidence copying the smoking gun normally you this through circumstantial evidence showing evidence access from which one might reasonably infer copying this evidence access considered along with the similarities between the two works deciding whether you copied however the similarities are strong striking inference copying may drawn even without any evidence that the defendant had access your copyrighted work that case the burden will the defendant rebut the inference copying for example evidence that been desert island for the last ten years and had contact with civilization wow now know why lawyers are rich and computer scientists are poor lawyers have sound they understand this stuff
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra memory upgrade folks what exactly the maximum memory can put quadra manual says with simms but macwarehouse and the like advertise simms give total who wrong has anybody got thanks chris chris reid strath
comp.sys.mac.hardware	built video have many questions for all you experts out there pertaining apple built video all macs that have built video have the ability use vga monitors not which macs have this capability can they drive svga well how big vga monitor can they drive how can you tell unlabeled monitor vga the pinouts what should look like particularly interested knowing the drive vga well the capabilities driving vga svga thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii centris title says all particularly interested the performance difference just how much faster the centris over the lciii tom uucp humu nctams pnet tomj arpa humu nctams pnet tomj nosc mil inet tomj pnet cts com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	results mathematica speed tests well here are the results the mathematica test which posted this newsgroup the test was the following command plot plotpoints was just curious how fast the plot command would executed various macintosh machines well other personal computers and workstations the results are posted below machine system math vers trials time min with tuneup ram for mathematica dec ultrix for dec risc iisi cache enh mhz ram for math ram cache for math sparc sunos station ram sgi iris risc processor version sparc sunos station iisi next nextstep cube based coprocessor next nextstep ave cube mhz ram iisi for enha math next ram mhz workspace manager funny how the iisi running mhz slower than other equivalent machines lots slower fact perhaps the version mathematica makes difference the fact that not much ram was allocated another interesting thing how fast the sgi did wow basically though wouldn draw any conclusions from this data seems that mathematica speed dependant lot variables was just curious how different machines would measure well you have any questions forgot something just drop line cmmiller iastate edu chad the spacing the above table doesn come out right your machine tell and mail you copy this binhexed word document
comp.sys.mac.hardware	caps lock control was apple keyboard please excuse and redirect this has already been answered but there small utility that switches the functionality the caps lock key and the ctrl key the powerbook keyboard use the ctrl key far more than caps lock would more convenient and comfortable thank you for any help scott farrar
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac laserjet iiip have friend who has mac think and her family has extra laserjet iiip sitting around there any way connect these two and make them work without postscript cartridge she told that random friend hers had mentioned something about some software package that could the translation rick rick osterberg osterber husc harvard edu harvard yard mail center cambridge usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help install ram centris article murdoch acc virginia edu jht faraday clas virginia edu jason harvey titus writes had asked everyone about problems installing meg simm and meg simm centris but the folks the local apple store called the folks cupertino and found that you can have simms different speeds one machine even they are both fast enough meg and meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want know there absolutely reason why differences the dram access time alone would cause incompatibility there would have another difference between the simms for there problem often used memory different speeds with problems whatsoever long fast faster than the minimum requirement you should fine just out curiosity did you actually try this and see problem were you told wouldn work and never tried also out curiosity you know exactly who cupertino you dealer talked like find out what they basing this recommendation dale adams apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laser writer iintx upgrade kit could someone please tell what laserwriter iintx upgrade kit its small box which has bag inn seemingly containing chips look like roms and iintx manual the installation instructions are most informative and say full this product must installed apple what does this first thought might ntx upgrade but thought that required entirely new board any info appreciated doug
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale ethernet board bit supermac combo gene stuff for sale new prices the following items are for sale qty description list price supermac colorlink bit nubus base this card primo selling for mailorder suports monitors with virtual desktop accelerated hardware pan etc this quick sale price includes free day air seagate meg old note all hardware normal working order prices not include shipping all items shipped cod usa pre paid anywhere sold iisi nubus adapter card with fpu for any items please contact gene naftulyev chairman staff umn edu call
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial port speed excerpts from cmu comp sys mac apr serial port speed samuel john kass andrew sorry got bit technical answer your question your mac will have problem whatsoever communicating with any modem that bps less and since modems that fast don exist yet standardized form there need worry actually kbps modem using standard compression bis cna reach bps however have not seen any server modems that have hardware compression have been told the annex modems here break but have never seen faster than kbps
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cheap video card for fpu just wondering anyone had info experience with video fpu for mac just thinking adding second monitor most likely grayscale bret oeltjen exp university minnesota electrical engineering
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii centris article apr nctams uucp tomj pnet cts com tom jenkins writes title says all particularly interested the performance difference just how much faster the centris over the lciii tom uucp humu nctams pnet tomj arpa humu nctams pnet tomj nosc mil inet tomj pnet cts com when apple came with their demos iowa state got chance run speedometer some the new macs both machines were running system had rgb don know what the caches were set neither machine had fpu appears that the centris quite bit faster than the iii centris lciii cpu graf disk math rating there comparison there definitely very noticable speed difference between these two machines according speedometer chad
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iintx upgrade article pqprtinnf escargot rmit minyos rmit douglas barry mcpherson writes could someone please tell what laserwriter iintx upgrade kit its small box which has bag inn seemingly containing chips look like roms and iintx manual the installation instructions are most informative and say full this product must installed apple what does this first thought might ntx upgrade but thought that required entirely new board any info appreciated doug the kit for already existing laserwriter iintx rom upgrade that replaces the font rasterizer code with the more efficient speedier code that first became available adobe type manager that software came out after the original ntxes and the called atm rasterizer now standard postscript printers mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook duo batteries ronaldw sco com ronald wong writes article usenet ucs indiana edu kssimon silver ucs indiana edu kenneth steven simon wrote the program powerstrip which freeware has option called quick discharge you can find the mac archives probably sumex aim stanford edu mac archive umich edu hidden option using powerstrip caputo right now and can find any quick discharge option definitely mac archive umich edu cause submitted apologies goofed the quick discharge option part the connectix powerbook utilities package cpu installed the same day powerstrip and didn pay enough attention anyway the option does exist for those you who buy cpu whadda goofball sheddap you not even the real signature file kenneth simon dept sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adb and graphics tablet help help have adb graphicsd tablet which want connect quadra unfortunately the has only one adb port and seems would have give mouse please can someone help want use the tablet well the mouse and the keyboard course thanks advance tai hou tng singapore
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help install ram centris excerpts from netnews comp sys mac misc apr help install ram cen jason harvey titus farad from jht faraday clas virginia edu jason harvey titus subject help install ram centris date mon apr gmt had asked everyone about problems installing meg simm and meg simm centris but the folks the local apple store called the folks cupertino and found that you can have simms different speeds one machine even they are both fast enough meg and meg simms were incompatibable just thought people might want know jason boy confused thought the entire point the pin simms was that you could use diffrent size simms you could avoid having use sets all horror stories not withstanding
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris cache bernoulli box you will need driver ver work with quadra centris you can download from iomega bbs dominic cheng cheng descartes uwaterloo computer science university waterloo ontario canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris impression have been playing with centris for almost week now must say this machine really fast the hardware turn feature annoying but got powerkey from sophisicated circuits and works like charm however still have few complaints when restart the machine every time the screen image the desktop pattern jerks and down for few times the quantum drive noisy overall highly recommend fast affordable and looks great dominic cheng cheng descartes uwaterloo computer science university waterloo ontario canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wise remove fan classic article hansg risken hansg risken volvo hans granqvist writes wise even think about removing the annoying fan from classic have warranty void and where get screwdriver fit those funny screws hans granqvist volvo data corp gothenburg sweden opinions only every complex problem there exists easy solution that not correct the screws are torx screws and the tool isn hard find matter finding one with long enough shaft the trick not good idea take that fan out why because will cause stuff over heat internal hard drives motherboard you name and this can cause damage known people have hard drive failures because fans that didn work right dale leonard judy stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer cactus org cats baseball and many many other subjects austin for stamp information call tony leonard number this business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	comparative scsi performance could someone direct information scsi performance for each mac max throughput etc kurt tiedtke ktiedtke jarthur claremont edu please email thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	your opinion the laserwriter select previous article jcav ellis uchicago edu johnc says this model one the two low cost laser printers that apple just introduced thinking getting one use home have any you had any experience with this printer does have level postscript you bought one are you happy with john cavallino email jcav midway uchicago edu university chicago hospitals john cavallino uchfm bsd uchicago edu office facilities management usmail maryland ave chicago frankly think this model screwup does not have postscriptlevel only has fonts and does not even have fine print photograde grayshare even the model has this shocked the kind features you get for this printer myself was hoping for some decent printer replace the personal laser writers motion picture major the brooks institute photography santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind the forerunner all states
comp.sys.mac.hardware	info apple requested article apr alijku edvz uni linz norbert mueller alijku edvz uni linz writes newsgroups comp sys mac hardware article prudhom iros serge prud homme prudhom iro umontreal writes any info the video processor that sit any way program that chip what companie makes that chip apple was never able provide any docs tools program that chip value the least value per piece computer hardware ever bought due the complete lack support tools there was refund for buyers this card but europeans were left out the rain once again agree completely but there was only refund for people who bought the with quadra have seen alpha version extension from apple called quicktime video which offloads quicktime compression decompression from the cpu the the card seems can done even though developer article states that the can programmed but they asked that any suggestions sent anyway steve margelis melbourne university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac article imag you write hillman hillman plk mil wrote deathbird cmu edu donpaul stephens kind slated wouldn you say who going throw all that the side and get the mac for not quite the point considdered here fact when apple release system what ever current the time release then you will see shortly afterwards apple longer producing hardware look next with their nextstep see what happens who going pay apples prices when they can get the same thing cheaper else where heck can get sun workstation cheaper than quadra and infact have number times all comes down apple released this before windows was released behind them they missed the boat why apple continued development will support the its fullest capabilities run faster than windows must something significantly better than windows and warrent being released the continued develeopment because there becomming less and less profit hardware the next step pun intended well sort make the money software look microsoft you think can happen after all you can sell multiple pieces software one hardware platform you also said windows nightmare for programmers will the temptation sell system couple million dos users too much for apple million copies serious money sir office acme gen thankfull that dont get all the government pay for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macplus freezes after hour use fails boot article osu inn tamsun tamu edu mclean math tamu edu robert mclean wrote macplus having problems which seem temperature related after using for while freezes the when turn off then the screen doesn show the disk icon and then goes dark consulted larry pina book and could not find these symptoms has anybody else seen such symptoms suggestions shure temperature dependent but this does not clean all your problems based some exp must say that the connections between the power supply and the monitor and main board are usable this failure ram simms can badly connected due some corrosion and the powersupply can the last phase lower voltage you can following you are used such technical terms clean all mentioned contacts with contact spray readjust the volt level your powersupply use calm fan and think preventing dust blowin through the floppy fixed piece paper can prevent this you don know how beg friendly technician christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm
comp.sys.mac.hardware	 article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what the difference want double spin rom drive may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed apples prices are very low compared there ram simms you should buy what inexpencive but think driver revisions easier get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what all think the iivx article tinnojp minerva cis yale edu bell peter yale edu peter bell writes advisor has decided get mac for the lab now that are funded again the consensus the lab was that all really needed was lciii but decided wanted centris the lack fpu that machine and the price struck making worth less than lciii have suggested get iivx instead seems heavily expandable and for what people with iivx think them they seem like good machines and like the nubus slots case ultimately decide want work with video the iivx lciii performance centris price the only reason get iivx you really need the full size nubus slots keep mind that the supports all apple monitors and has optional ethernet this lessens but doesn eliminate the need for nubus cards and unless you running fpu intensive software the will blow the doors off the lciii and the iivx the lciii the other hand sufficient for most people and has great price you haven guessed find halving the bus clock the iivx mhz mhz bus throughly bad thing and hope apple never does again joe finete jfinete cats ucsc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adapter cable for vga monitors does anyone know who makes cable adapter that wired according apple specs that forces the external output and the powerbook and duo into true vga style output signal the nec adapter does not this since their monitors are multisync they just route the signal into the correct pinout but not switch the macs output into vga mode have make one these does someone already have one made the following the apple spec for the cpu vga cable adapter assuming that the powerbooks duos will work with the same adapter macintosh vga the macintosh can supply vga timed signal for use with vga monitors using adapter cable the standard macintosh supports vga colors and with the optional vram simm the vga monitor supported colors note the macintosh supplies signals capable driving ttl level inputs however some low impedance input vga monitors not work with the macintosh connect macintosh vga monitor you need make adapter cable from the macintosh video connector the vga monitor following the pinout description for the adapter cable macintosh vga video connector pin signal name red ground red video signal green video signal green ground blue video signal blue ground hsync vsync hsync ground sense sense tied together vga monitors are identified shorting pin pin the macintosh video connector the macintosh grounds pin its video connector which results pulling down pin and gives the correct monitor for vga monitor this message was created mcw bbs jointly supported new orleans mac user group national home school user group user maccomw uucp the views expressed this posting those the individual author only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macintosh lisa dot matrix parallel printer have got dot matrix printer that came with lisa think wish attach but have manual have been told that some sort itoh printer disguise can anyone help with manuals info about codes send select fonts italics etc want write printer driver for protext thanks advance stuart stuart munn dod heriot watt university the sky black edinburgh therefore god mirren scotland supporter fax god may have harley mail censwm clust janet but the pope rides guzzi
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock info article nazario stiles kstar node net yale edu nazario pop cis yale edu edgardo nazario writes the info about give not rumour the truth the new macintosh coming the second quarter will have cpu their own excuse but have not all macs got cpu alain
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook batteries previous article gil gatech edu gil neiger says have few questions about powerbook batteries specifically the nicad batteries have for can the powerbook run without any battery the charger plugged problems michel dozois gloucester ontario canada freenet carleton membre club cerf volant outaouais ovkc membre national capital macintosh club ncmc membre jungle bbs babillard macintosh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra configurations noticed some you mentioning owning quadra with and meg vram seems that this configuration was purchased complete that the and vram were already installed the box interested that exact configuration and will buying with educational discount but have not found the bundled with any smaller than the you bought know how buy the with installed please let know what you know via email send messages dmaluso mhc mtholyoke edu thanks all diane maluso diane maluso internet dmaluso mhc mtholyoke edu department psychology and education mount holyoke college south hadley
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory plus have increase the memory plus not sure which since haven seen yet did this few years ago but longer have the instructions forget which resistor needs cut from mbs can anyone direct this information there ftp able doc some where with diagrams thanks dick grant
comp.sys.mac.hardware	forsale radius precision color video card have radius precision color video card for the mac that fits nubus slot the card has vram which means that bit color possible the card the card supports just about any monitor scan rate you can think used and but can higher you can switch resolutions and depth the fly with software control panel this the accelerated version the card which means all quickdraw calls are not executed the cpu but taken over the video card freeing the mac processor for other tasks the cheapest could find this card for when called around last night was mac place will sell for shipping just over year old and never been any problem comes with software and the original manuals hurry chris magnuson chrism col com hewlett packard company
comp.sys.mac.hardware	position erg keyboard far have only seen pictures the new ergonomic keyboard but seems that the placed the left part after the split however when learned typing school some years ago was taught write with right hand this difference between danish and american typing what thanks lot advance thomas widmann lernu esperanton viralbus daimi aau solidvm petit lingvis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laserwriter pro memory upgrade got the official word the laserwriter pro memory upgrade just got off the phone with the quite friendly donna rossi apple customer assistance she tells that those who purchased the laserwriter pro megabyte dpi greyscale configuration should contact their original dealers who are supposed provide the meg memory upgrade for those who don know the extra meg will allow printing dpi greyscale dpi the dealers have questions they should directed their hardware support numbers and apple customer assistance corporate number regards glenn personally annoyed our school bookstore they really have obligation provide this information all the customers who purchased the the original configuration they have the records that why they ask for things like phone number when get upgrade completed going write apple and complain
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what all think the iivx jfinete cats ucsc edu joseph manuel finete writes the iivx lciii performance centris price and unless you running fpu intensive software the will blow the doors off the lciii and the iivx from the benchmarks seen was that macuser macweek the fpu less centris faster floating point operations the kind calculations that get routed fpu than mac iifx and mac iifx mhz fpu the fastest based mac take note course that benchmarks never tell the whole story get your favorite program and run them both machines the store they should let you that before you plunk down hefty amount virtually philippe philippe casgrain etudiant chercheur casgrain ere umontreal departement des sciences biologiques universite montreal define disclaimer caught caught wasn even there didn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	techworks what you say greetings planning upgrade mac iisi from the present megs megs and add math coprocessor technology works austin texas comes quite highly recommended some mac magazines was just wonderring anyone could share with anything about tech works both good and bad experiences give any advice about other mail order companies that may consider your reply would very much appreciated thanks advance sincerely peter choo choo sigma ecs umass edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ethernet localtalk quadra have used both serial ports with modem and serial printer cannot use appletalk there ethernet localtalk hardware that will let use the ethernet port localtalk port until they come out with satellite dishes that sit your window give you internet access from your home won all using that port saurabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	dcc and minidisc next dat dds like story article cmd newcastle tor olav berntzen newcastle tor olav berntzen writes another thing why scsi interface because scsi works well with removable media and works well with large capacity devices the floppy interface you suggest handles the former but doesn have any hooks for dealing with the latter you have kludge plus extremely low performance and scsi has gobs room for expansion compared with floppy can just see let stick tape drive and drive all the floppy interface the possibilities for unexpected collisions are enormous peter silva network management technologies incorporated west airport blvd sugar land usa zure otsoa besarkatu duzu gaur
comp.sys.mac.hardware	thanks apple free ethernet well just got centris yesterday took just over two weeks from placing the order the dealer rutgers computer store appologized because apple made substitution order ordered the one without ethernet but they substituted one with ethernet wanted know that would alright with they must backlogged centri out ethernet they just shipping them with anyway very happy with the with few exceptions being nosy decided open before powering for the first time the scsi cable the hard drive was only partially connected must have come loose shipping big deal but would have been pissed tried boot and wouldn come the hard drive also has annoying high pitched whine heard apple will exchange you complain might try get swapped also dissappionted the lack soft power off this wasn mentioned any the literature saw also the location the reset interupt buttons awful having keyboard control for these functions was much more convenient and the screen seems tojump wierd way power seen this mentioned others must feature anyway above all fast great machine great price gnelson physics rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new apple ergo mouse nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how open the apple ergo mouse adb mouse mine lives near cat true really and picks her fur from what can tell looks like apple welded shut you must not have tried very hard just opend mine about seconds take look the bottom has dial that turns open much like the older adb mouses used have bit harder turn first but quite simple open also does anyone know about installing fpus mac iii heard some people saying has fried the motherboard the iii well you don match the pins correctly you will have some problems close look the socket should give you idea the proper orientation the chip hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	file server mac pkr slacvm slac stanford edu patrick krejcik writes saw once article about new line macs configured work more optimally file servers anyone know any more details check out the may issue macworld the new servers are the cover should your favorite newstand hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question quadra lecates bach udel edu roy lecates writes article apr pcnntp apple com dale adams gateway apple com dale adams writes does anyone have information acheiving resolution using interanl video this even possible most certainly possible possible use this resolution the apple monitor could probably rig connector with the proper pins nope the apple monitor does not support multiple resolutions not multi synching monitor hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	installing ram quadra truesdel ics uci edu scott truesdell writes this aside brian hughes please let lose the cute phony names everybody posting about adding memory quadra what phony names name clearly visible the headers and sing the post with account name you have problem with that then you will have get over used this account name for over years and the people who have been reading newsgroups for the last generally recognize hades account name have intention changing the way post installed couple simms quadra and was somewhat dismayed the general complexity the operation compared for example the wonderfully designed iii irritates when apple refuses tell how the user manual you have guess how disassemble the devise question the same for adding memory laserwriter pro isn apple responsibility tell its customers how fool around with hardware that what apple service techs get paid personally like the design the and applaud apple for coming with good way make use the front space for all those drive bays like lot better than the design except for those people who need drive arrays however agree with you about the pro design the operation isn very complicated even minimal amount help were offered but apple leaves you working blind again its not apple place make easy for non certified service people fool around with apple hardware even they did buy course you are free what you want your mac just don get upset when your apple service rep tells you that your warranty longer valid after the memory was installed was distraught that the top the simms came into contact with the plastic case frame mine actually contacted the framework with quite lot pressure enough that the assembly the board back the proper position was rather difficult and required some force could have filed little excess material off the top the simm boards but chose let stand have not had problems with ram yet will consider the problem annoying but not catastrophic this sounds like the kind problem had when installed simms into back before low profile simms were readily available the standard simms would contact the top the case and make bit difficult close the but did close and work just fine one the nice things about logic boards that they are generally quite flexible and can withstand fair amount pressure hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sigma designs double looking for any information about the sigma designs double board all can figure out that hardware compression board that works with autodoubler but not sure about this also how much would one cost joe jap cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock info camcon alain waha writes nazario pop cis yale edu edgardo nazario writes the info about give not rumour the truth the new macintosh coming the second quarter will have cpu their own excuse but have not all macs got cpu alain alain get your facts straight before you post something like this the duo dock does not have cpu its own docking station with ports connecting various components including the portable powerbook with its own cpu guess these rumored new duo docks have built cpu perform functions their own interesting they not compatible with the current duo models think you hearing lot more screwed apple complaints imagine company obsoleting ooh new verb virtually brand new computer sheesh ken kenneth simon dept sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	position erg keyboard viralbus daimi aau thomas martin widmann writes far have only seen pictures the new ergonomic keyboard but seems that the placed the left part after the split however when learned typing school some years ago was taught write with right hand this difference between danish and american typing what must type with left hand personally would have real problem with keyboard opened like that because tend share some keys with both hands particularly doing something else with one hand like using the cursor keys mouse glass jolt deej jacob rose amazing but true there much sand northern jaker csugrad edu africa that spread out would cover the sahara
comp.sys.mac.hardware	 article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm christian bauer writes article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what the difference want double spin rom drive may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed apples prices are very low compared there ram simms you should buy what inexpencive but think driver revisions easier get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm thought nec and toshiba rom mechanism have average access time less than while the sony apple rom drive has access time for the doublespin models chung yang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	using disks with mac you need get rom upgrade use floppy drive with mac are there party drives which work with the mac own roms thanks ralph ralph gonzalez computer science rutgers univ camden phone internet rgonzal gandalf rutgers edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	whats this thermal recalibration quantum drives article mar midway uchicago edu gary midway uchicago edu writes whether the drive hooked the computer not the lps makes disk seek noise every seconds this consistent and will continue lomg the drive powered even disconnect the drive from the computer this drive activity continues second intervals someone tried tell the drive was doing thermal recalibration not knowing beans about the internal physical workings the lastest disk drive technology guess might believe anything whats the scoop this standalone drive activity every sec can only comment thermal recalibration general some new drives perform order increase overall integrity data writes basically the firmware instructs the actuator perform test see the data tracks are within certain physical tolerance since when the media heats cools down some track drift inevitable and the drive has monitor this becomes especially critical very high recording densities and was used primarily very large capacity mechanisms but seems finding its way into more smaller drives way boosting the drive long term reliability and mtbf ratings first became aware thermal recalibration when was pointed out that the technique conflicts with prolonged write times when digitizing say audio video hard disk some manufacturers explicitly state that drives with thermal recalibration are not used for applications that have prolonged disk writes hope this helps victor
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ext hard drives for interested getting external hard drive for got internal that pretty full even with compression alot people talk about what good ratio thinking adding either what brands would people suggest finally places buy from are more popular mail order places better order from the places that just sell hard drives ones that advertise the back macworld and macuser thanks advance mail replies are sent compile them and post them drew drew asson space telescope science institute senior software engineer san martin drive advance planning systems branch baltimore usa internet asson stsci edu fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop within months going getting soon but don want apple come out with the cyclones and the tempest month and have the price drop the system want have negotiated good deal with supplier for and would like jump but again don want the price drop smuther btw the deal have with mouse for does anyone know better deal thanks nate longs lance colostate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	thanks apple free ethernet article apr pion rutgers edu gregory nelson gnelson pion rutgers edu writes and the screen seems tojump wierd way power seen this mentioned others must feature anyway above all fast great machine great price well saw few posts this and asumed that everyone talking about the new display mine does kinda like when would degauss old and since the new one lacks this button assume that what doing anyone that knows appreciate the info but doesn worry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	techworks what you say well although this may uncommon occurrence not had bad experience with techworks this past summer upgraded increased the memory powerbook and when called place the order for the ram was told the sales person that they would give rebate would return the original ram which was also techworks ram followed the instructions for returning the old ram expecting see credit visa within few weeks well months went and credit after many calls almost none which were ever returned arghhh finally found someone who told why never received your old chips then explained the procedure that had followed return them which the person replied you mean you sent them mail which had per the original sales person instructions was told that they their loss mail shipments not uncommon come and that should have sent the stuff via fedex etc reasoned that had done exactly what had been told but they would not budge the people spoke with were absolutely help sent letters copies the original receipts attempted trace the package through the mail made many more phone calls techworks all avail wouldn give because was disgusted sales support people supervisors there was nothing could pursuade them make right finally total disgust wrote letter credit card company asking them investigate the problem three weeks later the credit miraculously appeared statement have not recent memory been disgusted with the service that received from company all fairness they had way knowing that was not trying rip them off but went such great lengths prove them that this really happened well est vie will never buy another product from them again there had get that off chest
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cyclone and tempest could someone please post any info these systems thanks bob robert novitskey pursuing women similar banging one head rrn cwru edu against wall with less opportunity for reward
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii midi does anyone have any experience using lciii with midi they get along have heard that the iivx not suitable for midi but have not heard anyon say anything definitive about lciii and midi you have had experience midi interface have you used anyone used finale software this setting please mail will summarize thanks jerry bartlett peoria illinios uicvm uic edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sigma designs double jap cwru edu joseph pellettiere writes looking for any information about the sigma designs double board all can figure out that hardware compression board that works with autodoubler but not sure about this also how much would one cost had the board for over year and does work with diskdoubler but not with autodoubler due licensing problem with stac technologies the owners the board compression technology writing this from memory lost the reference please correct wrong using the board had problems with file icons being lost but hard say whether the board fault something else however decompress the troubled file and recompress without the board the icon usually reappears because the above mentioned licensing problem the freeware expansion utility expand will not decompress board compressed file unless you have the board installed since stac has its own product now seems unlikely that the holes autodoubler diskdoubler related the board will fixed which sad and makes very reluctant buy stac product since they being stinky but hey that competition stan kerr computing communications services office illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop within months article apr yuma acns colostate edu lance colostate edu nathaniel sammons writes going getting soon but don want apple come out with the cyclones and the tempest month and have the price drop the system want have negotiated good deal with supplier for and would like jump but again don want the price drop smuther btw the deal have with mouse for does anyone know better deal thanks that the low end configuration has the fpu opposed all the other configurations with has fpu sure you know what you are getting before you buy the around right now you intend upgrade from sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii vga monitor adapters having real tough time finding out the proper adapters use vga monitor ibm sold many exact the mac iii all the vendors have called say that the internal video will not work true vga monitor but will work ibm compatible multisync like the sony the nec monitors thought the vga capability lciii was very attractive because allowed you use inexpensive vga monitors confused are these vendors just not speed has anyone used lciii with non multisync vga monitor and where did you get your adapter please specific vendor and cat would prefer get apple monitor for these lciii unseemly see the finder inside ibm bezel but the more money save monitors the more lciii can afford and the more can get rid charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group qman casbah acns nwu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	warning don break powerbook screen article outpost bay org peirce outpost bay org michael peirce writes surprised shouldn protective tarriffs almost always end hurting the the long run same with subsidies they way build strong economy isn wall off from the tough outside world but rather compete the global market place and don come crying when the world doesn always want play our house rules tell that the japanese their local market neatly protected the japanese government its one very tough nut crack fact the only current way break into with japanese company partner the venture gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need advice about tech works etc greetings planning upgrade mac iisi from the present megs megs and add math coprocessor technology works austin texas comes quite highly recommended some mac magazines was just wonderring anyone could share with anything about tech works both good and bad experiences give any advice about other mail order companies that may consider your reply would very much appreciated thanks advance sincerely peter choo choo sigma ecs umass edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo dock problems has anyone had any problems with their duo dock not ejecting the duo properly when first got the duo would come out the dock couple inches when ejected and had pull the rest the way nowadays and had the system for months the duo doesn come out all despite the fact that the mechanism makes all the appropriate noises and have grab hold and pull out myself there simple fix for this have return apple dealer where will languish for weeks while have make with colour display vram floppy scsi etc btw not that the duo locked into the dock just doesn want slide out any more phil jimmieson computer science dept janet phil liv csc liverpool university internet phil csc liv box liverpool was head over heels love until got cramp
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help internal hds mac article apr siemens kurt netzer kurt siemens writes possible install mac with qunatum can pin cable with connectors for the internal motherboard scsi connector and the scsi connectors the first terminated the second will whats about the power supply where can connect amp connector supply very possible connect another internal hard disk any macintosh you can find the space put have iisi that came with quantum meg drive when ran into space problems slapped another meg quantum that had sitting shelf here what did first off was concerned about space since both drives are quantum quarter height drives finally decided that the logical place for them was stacked one upon the other fine they fit snugly have not had problem with heat yet and these drives have been running together for over two months the next problem was connecting the drive you have spare internal hard disk power cable did then half your troubles are over just splice the extra cable that you get one square motherboard connector and two hard disk power connectors you don have spare cable you will have buy the wires and connectors which can found any good electronics store for about would suggest properly soldering heatshrinking the connections reduce the possibility shorts bad connections next you need ribbon cable connection again had spare hard disk ribbon cable and wanted careful case this didn word what did was purchase crimp pin cable connector that gave another male connector the middle spare cable the part cost again and easily attached with any good wood vice the theory behind using crimp connector that this doesn work original cable not damaged and can back the original setup having done all that couldn bothered check the dev notes for power consumption plugged and works like charm this day mac everything should work the same careful with the the drive and ensure that the terminating resistors both drives are intact did not try this without the terminating resistors but seemed logical that splitting the scsi chain that the signal should terminated all the ends let know you have any more questions peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help internal hds mac article apr siemens kurt netzer kurt siemens writes possible install mac with qunatum can pin cable with connectors for the internal motherboard scsi connector and the scsi connectors the first terminated the second will whats about the power supply where can connect amp connector supply very possible connect another internal hard disk any macintosh you can find the space put have iisi that came with quantum meg drive when ran into space problems slapped another meg quantum that had sitting shelf here what did first off was concerned about space since both drives are quantum quarter height drives finally decided that the logical place for them was stacked one upon the other fine they fit snugly have not had problem with heat yet and these drives have been running together for over two months the next problem was connecting the drive you have spare internal hard disk power cable did then half your troubles are over just splice the extra cable that you get one square motherboard connector and two hard disk power connectors you don have spare cable you will have buy the wires and connectors which can found any good electronics store for about would suggest properly soldering heatshrinking the connections reduce the possibility shorts bad connections next you need ribbon cable connection again had spare hard disk ribbon cable and wanted careful case this didn word what did was purchase crimp pin cable connector that gave another male connector the middle spare cable the part cost again and easily attached with any good wood vice the theory behind using crimp connector that this doesn work original cable not damaged and can back the original setup having done all that couldn bothered check the dev notes for power consumption plugged and works like charm this day mac everything should work the same careful with the the drive and ensure that the terminating resistors both drives are intact did not try this without the terminating resistors but seemed logical that splitting the scsi chain that the signal should terminated all the ends let know you have any more questions peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quantum hard disk recently aquired quantum harddisk meg mechanism scsi have few questions and few problems first there seems extra connector socket the back that can figure out what for the address set some jumpers the bottom don think for that any ideas second would nice get hardware manual for the drive there are lot jumpers that don know what they are for third have got the drive format took while get things work and most fine for now the formating initialy was troublesome but seems the main problem you reset the macplus the drive disappears shut the mac off and then back agian then the drive comes fine any ideas please reply one the email addresses below thanks richard crispin department psychology email rcrispin watarts uwaterloo university waterloo psych watserv uwaterloo waterloo ontario phone ext canada fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help powerbook and caere typist plus graphics hand scanner edited and forwarded the csm announce moderator please respond the originator email also what needs besides cable that works phone number and applelink address for caere and smile and pat the back please beg you you know anything about the caere typist plus graphics hand scanner please read and solve problem will truely grateful for the rest life the problem that caere typist plus graphics hand scanner will not connect powerbook the cable the scanner will not fit into the scsi port the powerbook then got cable assembled adapt the original cable fit the scsi port this however turned the computer into scsi mode and treated hard disk have asked engineer london assembled new cable the idiot out sheer laziness has taken weeks and has yet solve the problem aware that caere the have solution you know cable that will solve this problem please help you know the solution will forever grateful you mail address zia castle wrong side the road syndrom for that zia castle thanking you advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disappointed cie article apr umiami miami edu ehg umiami miami edu writes seems that reconditioned hardware should sold reconditioned discounted price and that replacements for new hardware gone bad still covered under day warranty should new well sounds like need some kind lemon law the hardware industry after all does sound unfair for someone that has paid the price new drive for reconditioned one what you guys think
comp.sys.mac.hardware	the fan noisy any solutions article summeral rintintin colorado edu summeral rintintin colorado edu summerall thomas writes all doesn seem broken isn making grinding noises anything just loud much louder that the fan the iici just sold anybody else have this problem how about solution there good replacement fan that lot quieter but moves the same air any easy way insulate the sound but not the cooling air hah can even hear the fan gee wonder its working yup just checked its exhausting air out the back just fine gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	price drop within months nathaniel sammons writes going getting soon but don want apple come out with the cyclones and the tempest month and have the price drop the system want have negotiated good deal with supplier for and would like jump but again don want the price drop smuther btw the deal have with mouse for does anyone know better deal don know how say best but you are gaurenteed that the price the going drop this year this week macweek reports that apple probably planning drop august guess that may come sooner apple decides change the price structure upon release the multimedia units this summer your price looks pretty good about more then payed for mine last month would have rather waited for one the new machines this sommer like the cyclone but the resale value iici would have not been squat then thus financing forced purchase now happy with the machine and won feel betrayed all when apple cuts the price less then next week heh bottome line the does what you want buy you wait until the cylcones come out for price break then you might well wait for the powerpcs come out for another price break and then the units which follow them you may save some money but you lost lot time when you could have been using the computer face apple prices are going continuous state flux least they aren going try raising them again grin john komp leonardo src honeywell com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	comparative scsi performance kurt tiedtke ktiedtke jarthur claremont edu wrote could someone direct information scsi performance for each mac max throughput etc max thruput centris quadra about sec max thruput iici iifx equivalent about sec max thruput slower machines slower peter cohen don reflect employer opinions peterco eff org heck employer doesn even know here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple tape backup under system need get apple tape backup unit working under sys but not have any drivers software access the device does anyone know where can fidn the tools access this device appreciate any info comments curtis curtis generous generous sti nasa gov nasa sti code jtt washington
comp.sys.mac.hardware	axion serial port switcher good bad looking into buying serial port switcher because while mac has two serial ports have appletalk modem printer midi and sound digitizer unfortunately specifically looking the axion electronic switcher because seems fairly cheap about maczone does anyone know anything about heard that with most these things you can still only use serial ports time just prevents you from physically swapping cables although also heard that programs that use the comm toolbox may able use many serial ports they want does anyone know this true with the axion switchbox finally the axion stinks you using something else that you think good interested hearing about other products would like spend under possible please reply through mail not regular reader this newsgroup there interest can post summary replies thanks lot scott smith umsmith mcs drexel edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pleeze help buy mac hey everybody want buy mac and want get good price who doesn could anyone out there who has found really good deal centris send the price don want know where unless mail order areound cleveland ohio also should buy now wait for the power thanks bob reply via post mail rrn cwru edu robert novitskey pursuing women similar banging one head rrn cwru edu against wall with less opportunity for reward
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi mhz success story howdy folks back september october posted instructions how upgrade the iisi mhz doin little solderin people bolder than have reported that they done the same procedure but put mhz oscillator instead thus running the cpu mhz instead tried and darned doesn work has anyone tried does anyone know this procedure will work mine old slow and need either death power kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adb woes article apr afterlife ncsc mil mlbelan afterlife ncsc mil mark belangee writes greetings wise netters oops that the oracle sorry anyhow have basic question that cannot answer just where the heck can buy adb cable mine trackball shot and haven been able find replacement anywhere unless looking the wrong mail order catalogs anyone have any ideas places prices just make myself mark mlbelan afterlife ncsc mil you should able pick adb cable any computer wiring store give you the address alberta computer cable calgary but victoria canada and don think address calgary would help you too much basically however just phoned them and they charged approx cnd for custom made adb extension cable for mouse hope this helps dave maclachlan dmaclach uvic nightfall software inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	 article innrc srvr engin umich edu chyang leghorn engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm christian bauer writes article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what the difference want double spin rom drive may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed apples prices are very low compared there ram simms you should buy what inexpencive but think driver revisions easier get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm thought nec and toshiba rom mechanism have average access time less than while the sony apple rom drive has access time for the doublespin models chung yang have the technology drive with the toshiba mechanism and supposedly the fast and best now has access and data transfer rate sec multisession photo compatible available from educorp for the technology one and comes with two mail coupons for two free cds not sure the are good since only had the drive little less than month and had the shipped home address california instead here maryland the technology drive has separate power supply separated from the drive which supposedly gives longer life and keeps cleaner with fan attract dust toshiba brand drive also available but think the technology better since you get the same mechanism and slightly lower price with two free cds the apple drive sony mechanism around access time think and data transfer rate sec know the slowest the three mentioned here not widely available except through the apple catalog which bad price only also multi session photo compatible think the external model comes with free cds some which are pretty good the nec drive has been out the longest has access time and data transfer rate sec available from many vendors around dollars including educorp wasn multi sesssion photo compatible before but hear that the current version that shipping owners the older drives can get upgrade does not come with any free unless you buy bundle the three rom drives above think the best choices would the apple drive and the technology toshiba drive the apple drive for compatibility with apple products and the technology toshiba for speed and performance btw the models the drives are apple applecd applecd internal technology the toshiba brand name model not sure but also something like with nec cdr very happy with drive and have had compatibility problems whatsoever wrong about any the above correct but pretty sure myself even when think not also some you out there might notice that have the same last name the president technology which happens southern california hometown however not relative nor know the guy liu just common chinese name especially southern california with the enormous chinese community besides one doctors california has three steve liu patients and another steve liu comes school and lives the next dorm this show that liu very common steve steve liu wish for better sig drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu suggestions are very welcome drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple tape backup under system article generous nova generous nova sti nasa gov curtis generous writes need get apple tape backup unit working under sys but not have any drivers software access the device does anyone know where can fidn the tools access this device appreciate any info comments curtis curtis generous generous sti nasa gov nasa sti code jtt washington retrospect dantz works nicely with this combination you can buy from the mail order vendors
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help please hand scanner problem you know anything about the caere typist plus graphics hand scanner please read and save life problem that caere typist plus graphics hand scanner will not connect powerbook the cable from the scanner will not fit the scsi port the computer managed gaet cabled assembled that adapted the cord the computer however this placed the computer into scsi mode that acted external hard disk whenever switched the computer asked engineer london assemble new cable for but taken weeks and has yet find the solution out sheer laziness and know that cable exists solve the problem you know the solution please let know what cable need and how can get hold one mail address zia castle will truely grateful for all your help thanking you advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cannot move data fast enough want achieve overall throughput rate around megabytes sec for very large data transfers around have quadra have nubus network card that can pump data mac memory using block mode transfers have high speed disk array asynchronous calls that can achieve let say all transfers from disk buffer network card not enough first transfer all the data from the disk buffer then transfer all the data from the buffer card then result overall too slow tried the following scheme for megabyte transfer step load the from disk buffer step asynch send out card load the from disk buffer step asynch send out card load the from disk buffer step asynch send the out card load the nth from disk buffer step send the nth out card even though the code apparently does execute the card transfer asynchronously and the card does not use the mac cpu all using the buffer tho each the steps through take long the two transfers were executed one after another there improvement the rate why the mac ram dual port the nubus card and the disk driver can both access data the same time the problem that the two devices card and disk driver both have use the same bus mac ram there anything can david david blume get tired thinking all the things dcb wdl wdl loral com don want bukowski barfly
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock with processor here why well folks after some thought the answer struck flat the face why would apple release duo dock with processor its own here why people have hounded apple for notebook with processor apple can deliver that right now because the saps too much power radiates far too much heat and too large for notebook how does one get around that without designing new chipset use existing powerbook technology your best advantage the duo dock gives apple unique ability give users that power semi portable fashion plunking the into the dock you got quadra power your desk the road that mhz should able handle most your needs okay not the best solution but its answer win situation does this mean one will able use the powerbook processor parallel the dock processor okay getting really hypothetical now travis grundke macgames digest your source for information contributing editor news reviews gaming software and the gaming macgames digest industry the macintosh community reply cleveland freenet edu for more information macgames digest
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook questions why how actually can powerbook have pixel display regardless and still keep the dpi resolution assume that doesn and don mean imply they all have these dimensions any info price drops new models non duo coming thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	question quadra article bostrauma trauma com ennui trauma com for neville who died ennui writes does anyone have information acheiving resolution using interanl video this even possible suspect that isn although certainly like know for sure course its possible get centris all you need correctly wired video cable gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new apple ergo mouse apr utkvx utk edu nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how open the apple ergo mouse adb mouse mine lives near cat true really and picks her fur from what can tell looks like apple welded shut rotating the plate around the mouse ball counter clockwise you can open the mouse and clean isn obvious the desktop bus mouse but opens quite easily once you see what has done geoff geoffb dartmouth edu computing support consultant tuck school business you don vote you don count
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cheapest mike for centris article summeral rintintin colorado edu summeral rintintin colorado edu summerall thomas writes just bought centris and discovered dispointment that apple has gotten too cheap include mike anymore internal external you get mic with the you get with the internal rom drive gary gary snow uunet clark gsnow gsnow clark edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock with processor here why cleveland freenet edu travis grundke writes why would apple release duo dock with processor its own here why people have hounded apple for notebook with processor apple can deliver that right now because the saps too much power radiates far too much heat and too large for notebook how does one get around that without designing new chipset use existing powerbook technology your best advantage the duo dock gives apple unique ability give users that power semi portable fashion plunking the into the dock you got quadra power your desk the road that mhz should able handle most your needs okay not the best solution but its answer win situation does this mean one will able use the powerbook processor parallel the dock processor okay getting really hypothetical now would also great for another reason when not docked could serve ara server the large internal your corporate email etc pinch you would also have two machines instead they could couple that thought with rocketshare and let you use both the the and the the dock would mighty powerful dock brian hall mspace netcom com mark space softworks applelink markspace america online markspace not disturb mission from egghead
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple tape backup under system article pskkt fnnews fnal gov fnclub fnal gov david sachs writes article generous nova generous nova sti nasa gov curtis generous writes need get apple tape backup unit working under sys but not have any drivers software access the device retrospect dantz works nicely with this combination also use retrospect but noticed that central point software mactools backup also supports the apple tape drive under the apple tape drive quite slow the advantages retrospect relative the simpler mactools backup are less significant than might the case for someone backing large server dat drive used apple tape drives are going for might make less economic sense pay extra for retrospect when mactools cheaper and includes other worthwhile utilities retrospect nice though and probably going upgrade bill johnston johnston udel edu chambers street newark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo dock problems compsci liverpool phil csc liv phil jimmieson writes has anyone had any problems with their duo dock not ejecting the duo properly when first got the duo would come out the dock couple inches when ejected and had pull the rest the way nowadays and had the system for months the duo doesn come out all despite the fact that the mechanism makes all the appropriate noises and have grab hold and pull out myself there simple fix for this have return apple dealer where will languish for weeks while have make with colour display vram floppy scsi etc btw not that the duo locked into the dock just doesn want slide out any more phil jimmieson computer science dept janet phil liv csc liverpool university internet phil csc liv box liverpool was head over heels love until got cramp also has anyone heard any rumors that the new docks the ones with the cpu will better designed that this first batch love duo but installing cards the dock not much fun bob bob lord south wacker room network manager chicago cstar group andersen consulting lord andersen com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	internal scsi installation how but apple says unable locate suitable drive scsi what doing wrong apples hdsc will only format hard drive that apple sold you need use third party formater like drive spoton
comp.sys.mac.hardware	 article innrc srvr engin umich edu chyang leghorn engin umich edu chung hsiung yang writes article bauer bauer informatik uni ulm christian bauer writes article afi shs vohmrylee andrew cmu edu donpaul stephens deathbird cmu edu wrote what the difference want double spin rom drive may looking into nec and apple doublespins only what the best nec toshiba and sony apple nearly deliver the same speed apples prices are very low compared there ram simms you should buy what inexpencive but think driver revisions easier get driver kits from apple than from every other manufacturer christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm thought nec and toshiba rom mechanism have average access time less than while the sony apple rom drive has access time for the doublespin models chung yang the toshiba has access time the nec has access time right around the sony apple access time course somewhat important but not vital the case cds data transfer rate all the drives are double speed drives with maximum data transfer rates second any good choice apple very cheap when included with new macs and agree with christian comment about drivers plus apple bootable the centris and quadra very nice feature you need install system software don know the nec toshiba are bootable those machines mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new apple ergo mouse article dartvax dartmouth edu geoffb coos dartmouth edu thumper writes apr utkvx utk edu nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how open the apple ergo mouse adb mouse mine lives near cat true really and picks her fur from what can tell looks like apple welded shut rotating the plate around the mouse ball counter clockwise you can open the mouse and clean isn obvious the desktop bus mouse but opens quite easily once you see what has done geoff geoffb dartmouth edu computing support consultant tuck school business you don vote you don count think the original poster meant opening the mouse not just releasing the ball and getting the rollers found that the original adb mouse sometimes unscrewing the two halves allowed for easier cleaning the original poster has his answer ask how you open the new ergonomic mouse open mean split the two halves get the guts isn obvious based the minute look spent with one the office yesterday there are visible screw heads mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disappointed cie article news service uci edu wayne chen eapu orion oac uci edu writes industry after all does sound unfair for someone that has oops meant fair not unfair
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra problem question just got quadra and noticed that can change the desktop color from the beautiful gray thought maybe should reinstall the using the install first macintosh centris quadra diskette because the system file this diskette more recent than the one the hard disk the easy install selects macintosh cnetris system software does anyone know should use this customize and use system software for any macintosh does matter thanks advance for any suggestions kay alexander old dominion university bitnet kba oduvm internet kba oduvm odu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sales powerbook slowing down article martin tohi comp sys mac hardware martin tohi jean francois martin writes first this not april joke dealer town told that the powerbook don sell they use sell the guy told that apple having the same problem has when the desktop mac was too expensive the powerbook are too expensive comparison what you can get the dos side what you think this you feel the same thing about just curious sounds about right there high demand for product there little incentive aggresively cut prices once the demand fall off bit then the time start getting aggressive with pricing waiting too long can really hurt your business though the powerbooks have sold very well now they are slowing down apple needs come out with some lower priced versions the only reason own powerbook that could spring for the rest the lineup way pricey for bet they coming out with more power versions too michael peirce peirce outpost bay org peirce software suite hibiscus place san jose california usa makers voice fax smoothie applelink peirce america online afc peirce
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card and optimum memory settings here question that may simple enough answer but has stumped myself and few others what does external ram cache card for you you already have large cache set through control panel your simms have mac iici with meg ram external video card don rob simm and the default apple cache card believe this say have cache set meg what good does measly the cache card could actually slow things down dividing the cache between the card and the simm does still speed things providing secondary staging area for data normally passed directly into the simm ram cache confused because seems like cache cards are low memory really any good compared what you can set yourself yet daystar fastcache has numbers which show around performance boost some operations are the chips the cache card simply faster than most simm accesses please help trying find the optimum memory settings for the iici system described the above patrick hurh fnal fnal gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors and video cards for hello all thinking about buying external monitor for and was wondering anyone out netland has any advice for mostly thinking about color monitor and bit card that can switch between and something higher like read old report card from lapis that could this but could not use the external monitor the main screen with menubar which major draw back has this perhaps been fixed can any other cards this like the micron xceed also which monitor should buy the moment leaning towards the sony what exactly the difference between these but are there any other good cheap monitors should know about doesn the monitor have multisync support cards that can switch resolutions please send mail and summarize would also greatly appreciate getting the mail addresses any mail order companys that sell monitors cards thanks advance eggert thorlacius university iceland
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new apple ergo mouse believe that order get the innards the new mouse you must remove the label the bottom that says apple desktop bus mouse there you should find two screws either side haven tried myself yet but when ran fingernail accross the label these two divots appeared and can only assume that these are the elusive screws question cheers john john graham the cleveland institute music jmg cwru edu brought you the letters and and the number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors article pco einn corona hsc usc edu daniel chen dschen corona hsc usc edu writes interested getting color monitor for new lciii unfortunately really quite confused with the sony monitors could someone please compare the sony and the apple thanks dan just thought would mention that sony longer manufactures the cpd because several manufacturing flaws the new model now the which just like apple new sony trinitrom claims inches not sure the details the defects but work our schools bookstore and can tell you that nearly half them were returned with some kind defect another just two cents worth
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitors joseph kasanic jmk cwru edu writes just thought would mention that sony longer manufactures the cpd because several manufacturing flaws the new model now the which just like apple new sony trinitrom claims inches not sure the details the defects but work our schools bookstore and can tell you that nearly half them were returned with some kind defect another assuming that you are referring the correct what kind flaws have been reported been using mine for about months now and haven noticed any problems might they develop later did get lucky and snag good monitor just curious john john graham the cleveland institute music jmg cwru edu brought you the letters and and the number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how you like the apple color onescanner article apr midway uchicago edu johnc jcav ellis uchicago edu writes all set buy one these for the office use for scanning color photographs and for optical character recognition played with the original grayscale onescanner and were very pleased the color model comparable quality also what brand ocr software would you recommend leaning toward caere omnipage any better ideas thanks work campus bookstore and had the opportunity demo the color one scanner found very impressive well affordable with the educational discount course note also that comes with ofoto software which sufficient for our needs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need advice about tech works etc gregory welch writes followed the instructions for returning the old ram expecting see credit visa within few weeks well months went and credit after many calls almost none which were ever returned arghhh finally found someone who told why never received your old chips then explained the procedure that had followed return them which the person replied you mean you sent them mail which had per the original sales person instructions was told that they their loss mail shipments not uncommon come and that should have sent the stuff via fedex etc also returned memory last summer for credit and the sales person warned not use mail did although did insure the shipment and apparently techworks got minor grip with techworks that they have different price lists for different people ordered duo memory thinking got their best price because employeer subsequently found out that apple was offering developers memory for less than techworks charged called complain and was told should have said was apple developer and they credited card for about the purchase price like techworks quality and installation instructions and they include powerbook tools but for out purchases sales tax chip merchant seems bit less forrest howard oracle corporation oracle parkway box redwood shores
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris would like know what people opinions are about the real world differences are between with and without coprocessor don use anything like mathamatica maple etc don use spreadsheets least sheets with complicated anything don use cad apps although used use renderers extensive communications run bbs write software write papers etc btw just for kicks this what was told local apple rep about upgrading well apple built extra socket for the coprocessor chip that way you just plug the coprocessor and works then heartily laughed and hung the phone thanks nate hate quotations this message brought you tell what you know nate sammons and the number ralph waldo emerson longs lance colostate edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris also use photoshop edit photos and dtp work nate
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new apple ergo mouse article eqg dartvax dartmouth edu hades dartmouth edu writes nwcs utkvx utk edu schizophrenia means never being alone writes does anyone know how open the apple ergo mouse adb mouse mine lives near cat true really and picks her fur from what can tell looks like apple welded shut you must not have tried very hard just opend mine about seconds take look the bottom has dial that turns open much like the older adb mouses used have bit harder turn first but quite simple open nope pretty sure that this person knows how take the ball out think that what they want take the mouse apart the old mouse had four screws the bottom that you could unscrew this while there obvious way take the new one apart tony quan stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock upgrade have been getting lot requests for this information thought would post for those interested parties sorry for length increase the maciisi speed mhz mhz the clock must changed from mhz mhz mhz respectively this done going static free work station putting some aluminum foil down work open the lifting the tabs the back the case remove the hard disk disconnecting the power and scsi cables spreading the tabs and lifting the drive out remove the flopy drive remove the power supply spreading the tab front and lifting the supply straight and out remove the fan pressing the ears together the back bottom side the fan and lifting straight and out remove the mother board spreading the tabs the left and right side the board and sliding the board forward then lifting the board out all connectors the back the board must removed first desolder the mhz clock the one closest the memory modules this not easy even for skilled solderer get socket with the round pins and remove four the pins pushing them from the bottom with long nose pliers put the four pins the holes vacated the clock and solder them insert mhz mhz clock put large power transistor heat sink the processor chip and the other large chip just the right the processor and figure some way hold the heat sync place made simple clamp putting four inch screw through the hole the board between the two chips mount the screw using insulated washers screw cross member down over the heat sync hold them place don use too much pressure put all back together and for disclaimer this only the procedure used and not authorized anyone you are your own for this procedure quite sure will void your warentee bye for now ralph durtschi idaho state university email durtralp isu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	racet optical got racet drive with ricoh mechanism with the new roms the thing have new tosoh optical disk bytes per sector cart for the thing that refuses mount formatted all the carts that have for the drive that work are racet certified media sector carts all can think that this tosoh cart uses some kind incompatible low level format anyone know what software will allow this formatted this drive new dip setting for the mechanism tried just about every combination drivers and custom formatting programs can find with luck any ideas joshc csa edu you have good idea please mail this address possible can check this newsgroup constantly thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook the powerbook with fax data modem available thru citibank citidollars catalog for citidollars the modem bps data bps fax send only monty solomon box framingham monty roscom think com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	problems with rose does anyone work with the rose card have the problem that after certain crashes the card disappears from the system and lets crash the mac then okay don use the card quite like one should because simulate errors the before every instruction some specified registers are masked simulate stuck error certain bits normally the crash instance rose notices crash sets flag and stops working reading the mentioned flag the mac can notice card crash that works fine for almost all crashes but said sometimes the card doesn set the flag and disappears from the system the documentation rose does not tell anything about its behavior when crashing and the moment are trying understand analyzing the assembler code and that both frustrating and lengthy can anyone help please only reply via email don read this group department computer science university dortmund germany laf aennig mail maennig veronica informatik uni dortmund the beginning god created adam ahem atoms atoms hydrogen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	floptical question article bmyers slip ots utexas edu bmyers ccwf utexas edu billy lee myers writes the last time looked floptical disk weren all that cheap per floptical disk per megabyte per sysquest per megabyte flopticals have been available since the beginning the year per floptical per megabyte and have seen them advertised macweek per megabyte for someone tight budget the fact that the minimal dollar increment for more storage less versus sometimes matters
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem help have recently obtained centris and has developed unusual video problem model with vram cards monitor apple when the computer set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through window horizontal white lines appear the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate the operation continued window moved over the involved area the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area the screen this problem not observed the monitor configured for colors inch apple monitor with colors used suspect bad video ram chip but cannot certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse were wondering anyone has seen anything like this and how fix please also respond azelenet bigmac mskcc org thank you for your help andrew zelenetz molecular biology program memorial sloan kettering cancer center
comp.sys.mac.hardware	noisy what can there this old here got the older style fans that remind house ventilator cylindrical drum instead the bladed rotor usually see anyway the makes this loud buzzing noise due vibration somewheres remove the screws and loosen the front from the back quiets down can only assume that the fan housing from this goofy thing touching the back the case and vibrating against anyway any suggestions for where get replacement fans and how stealth this guy your experiences welcome everything had gone planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson cnn regarding failed raid attempt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tempest and cyclone info needed anyone has any information about the upcoming new computers cyclone and tempest need some info anything would greatly appreciated thanks shawn breedsa wkuvx bitnet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rumours about new duos jek ultb isc rit edu king writes since are the subject chip power consumption heard from very reliable source that the dec alpha chip uses the power that intel pentium chip does and still whips the pentium butt makes you wonder why intel ever made chip begin with wouldn you like powerbook alpha running about mips cool idea bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt sorry wrong would extremely hot idea least with the current alphas the available alphas run mhz but they produce quite bit heat fact much that they need special mounting with extra large heat sinks also apple looks pretty commited the powerpc route instead deal with dec sid sidney kitchel kitchel indiana edu kitchel dpsi com data parallel systems inc dpsi morningside drive bloomington indiana usa fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	appletalk card question have chance buy used appletalk card create network with home machines however the guy who has the card tells there can remember now the back the card rather than the pin pin mini din that expect this sounds more like thicknet ethernet card should there transciever like the quadras what would reasonable price expect pay for one these cards keeping mind that micro channel architecture which means take your best guess and double email replies would appreciated here rrr ideas com thanks richr the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	removable storage have quadra with but need lot sound sampling for auditory research what would the best type removable media for storing these audio clips ron they say lazy but takes all time life been good far joe walsh ron pritchett internet pritchet ash scarolina edu fidonet ron pritchett
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mouse the bottom drawer just found old mouse with pin plug assume that belonged deceased plus something could any simple modification turn into proper adb mouse reply mail preferably thanks ulf lagerstedt communicator consult sweden ulf consult comm
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video adaptor pinouts this does not make sence why would the work but the fgx not work the same monitor without accucolor and digital controls works fine with svga what the deal anyway you can get svga with and for damark are you saing that probably would work while nec won the fgx has maximum horizontal scan rate khz driving khz get the mac way beyond the tolerance the spec khz going khz only above the minimally guaranteed figure too doubt the damark monitor would sync mac like most things you get what you pay that the deal john rutirasiri wouldn have posted wasn sure
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra acceleration about this quadra clock acceleration has anyone heard anything like for the quadra please reply mail don get the news very often thanks mark beale mbeale wallaby mrc uidaho edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac plus constantly rebooting article hsyu dxq hpuerca atl com russ hpuerca atl com russ hodes writes tae shin tshin husc harvard edu wrote basically the mac pluses are constantly rebooting themselves the reboot button were being pushed sometimes the mac able fully boot and display the desktop but only matter time before reboots again times the frequency high several times minute wonder your mac has those little reset interupt switches installed they are plastic devices that push the switches which are inside the mac mabey those switches are bad and need replacing this problem usually low vdc from the power supply there adjustment for this the supply the voltage still unstable low then the culprit probably bad rectifier jeff hite computing center oregon jeffh ludwig uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter question just read article the swii one thing puzzles the article says the swii serial only device does that mean have unplug modem each time want print something
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rom for quadra would there any problems with hooking toshiba external rom drive ron hey jack the ripper won you come over and hook the power lines your love jethro tull ron pritchett internet pritchet ash scarolina edu fidonet ron pritchett
comp.sys.mac.hardware	interesting adb behaviour article apr waikato ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university writes noticed interesting phenomenon centris unplug the keyboard and mouse and plug them again without turning the power off the mouse suddenly switches about half its normal movement speed check the mouse control panel and there change its setting there still full speed the way like restarting the machine restores the normal mouse speed the way happens with both the newer style mouse that came with the centris and the older style mouse from iifx work thus don think has anything with the resolution setting the mouse definitely quirk the adb interface either hardware software the centris itself have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with lciii perhaps quirk the new machines dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock upgrades any new reports about iisi clock upgrade mhz mhz any failures iisi owner with slow mac and itchcy soldering iron
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what rom accelerated video the macuser article the new centris and quadra machines mentioned that the and the and not the had rom accelerated video didn seem make much difference their benchmark test what don recall seeing dale adams post erik speckman could someone tell dale posts video and memory are archived somewhere
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes clark nwu edu brian clark writes quarda popular misspelling quadra which has mhz processor the has mhz and some local buses the motherboard run faster the video different also the can run and believe monitor bit color without vram upgrade actually you could put much vram into you want and you still won able get bit color any monitor not part the board video the however can use bit video monitors with vram hades yes but you upgrade the vram you get bit color you really don care point that out the box the has more video capability for the same size monitors the can bit with both and doesn support and does bit monitors
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra differences jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov jim jagielski writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes rdk cec wustl edu robert david klapper writes also believe that the fixed bug the cpu which screwed some floating point calculations robert klapper washington university louis rdk cec wustl edu lubarsky law cybernetic entomology there always one more bug does someone have any definite information this this the first heard how does the cpu get fixed hardware upgrade this doesn make much sense let see now the differences between the and are basically runs mhz not mhz has mhz bus not mhz upgraded graphics controller results requiring vram not rom fixes rounding errors floating point calculations digit patch the roms with the latest version don see how this problem ethernet problems with more than buffers doubt the person was refering hardly screwing though jim jagielski and gonna stiff say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what put centris internal bay hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes tzs stein washington edu tim smith writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing the analog audio outputs with the mac generated audio the mac motherboard also you can sample the audio using the sound control panel clicking the options button next the microphone icon how you click the options button never seen undimmed the latest word this you have disconnect the microphone cable the motherboard then the button supposed dim hades sorry assumed that the the various new machines with the internal rom bay worked the same the quadra obviously they don can use any three inputs changing the radio button under the sound quadra microphone external and rom always leave the microphone plugged even though never use
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iici upgrade article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes while ago posted note asking for specs the quadra and opinions the upgrade iici accelerator card far responsed that noticed please let know what you think these possible upgrade paths cost efficiency pros cons etc thanks complete are best obtained from your dealer some recent copy macworld macuser foggy memory suggests that the most relevant comparison factors vis vis iici are follows mhz mhz data path don recall this for sure but slower than style machines for sure ethertalk card board audio out ram motherboard simm slots nubus slots more flexible build video than the uses vram comparison iici with accelerator won give you audio ethernet the same video options with accelerator cpu performance can comparable but think ends costing more greg dudek
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sampling audio was what put centris ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university writes article bskendigc netcom com bskendig netcom com brian kendig writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing the analog audio outputs with the mac generated audio the mac motherboard also you can sample the audio using the sound control panel clicking the options button next the microphone icon what this iivx with internal doesn have any audio icon can find any such option centris either the other hand don see why need one try recording sound with the built microphone with audio playing the drive get the audio mixed with the microphone sound and guess unplug the microphone then get uncontaminated audio admittedly sampled bits through conversion sorry about the misinformation made bad assumption about the new machines behaving like quadra see previous post about sampling the audio though have you tried found the aliasing really bad like needed filter something much worse than expected installed the the quadra myself maybe missed something everything else works great though
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recommendations for removable storage media wanted article apr kth you write after having used both syqyest and bernoulli most enthuiastically recommend bernoulli syquests although more popular are much slower prone cartridge what does your friends have buy you have friends buy optical and stop bought bernoulli pro drive last year after comparing with lots diffrent storage solutions optical drives are slow very slow compared access bernoulli since needed additinol online storage rather than just backup archiev disk choosed bernoulli drive use adobe preimere and quicktime movies alot you ran out storage real fast imho the best buy currently the bernoulli multidisk per cartridge homayoon akhiani turning ideas into reality digital equipment corporation alpha the new beginning reed hudson all rights reserved copyright email akhiani ricks enet dec com the words are mine and not employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lcd overhead projectors looking for one those color lcd screens you place overhead projector and control the presentation with mac can you recommend particular brand what price are talking about thanks jan vandenbrande jan eds com new address jan lipari usc edu school address forwards uucp uunet uupsi jan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	conversion working data acquisition and analysis program collect data from insect sensory organs another alternative the use the sound input port can you really make due with the non existent dynamic range bit converter probably dubious linearity and monotonicity and perhaps coupled well would depend the requirements the poster data for some purposes resolution with without calibration curve otherwise the other possibilities would get digital voltameter with serial output connect serial port mac collect data with some communications program buy chip from analog devices burr brown etc connect parallel serial converter use serial port for acquisition nah too much soldering and trouble shooting get board from national instruments data translation omega etal the finest solution but possibly the most costly the original poster the signal too large why not use voltage divider two resistors cost very cheap george sukenick sci ccny cuny edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook batteries quick query for powerbook gurus tom spearman post alternative powerbook battery options mentioned that there exist versions their powerbook batteries amp hour one amp hour one and amp hour one anyone out there know how determine which these battery looked battery and there obvious exterior indication contacted tom spearman who had gleaned the information from macuser and didn know either anyone out there know the answer thanks christopher majka nextug dal btw you can reply via email would grateful don often read this newsgroup will post summary answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what happens you completely flatten your battery article fodg raistlin udev cdc com swiers chaos aqeng cdc com aaron swiers writes schuyler netcom com gabriel schuyler writes stanger otago nigel stanger writes can running powerbook battery completely flat have any detrimental side effects other than the not going ask only two things can think although nicad batteries should completely discharged about once month leadacid batteries shouldn ever completely discharged well maybe once while okay this very common mis conception dealing with cad batteries good idea completely discharge cad cell periodically not good idea completely discharge cad battery the difference being that cell only one cell nicad puts out volts like rechargeable aaa battery defined more than one cell volt for nicad equivalent due differences the individual cells battery complete discharge can actually harm nicad battery more than help overcome the memory effect the most common problem that over time individual cell can develop internal shorts which will weaken other cells that are connected thus reducing the lifespan your battery pack etc okay naive question how does one discharge cell without discharging the entire battery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory upgrades excuse this frequent question checked several faqs but couldn really find anything have iisi with the standard meg memory and want need add additional memory but budget really don need more than meg max what the best performance wise and most economical way this someone told that should only use simms the same amount memory that meg meg etc what just wanted buy just meg and use the rest what already have the manual hasn been very helpful with this thanks respond via mail isn worth the bandwidth common human laws and interests wouldn exactly call and emotions have validity happy dogma but makes signifigance the vast feel better about not cosmos large getting laid lovecraft carter jacob sunspot ssl berkeley edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trying find reliable power center for macs there trying find out reliable power center basically surge protector that sits below the monitor and has individual control for each outlet some people have opinion that none them work well the ones that could locate microcenter catalogue were tripp lite isobar command console proxima power director kensington masterpiece plus has anyone used one these could you please send your feedback these thanks shalabh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris tms drive recently purchased centris and having difficulty getting computer recognize hard disk drive external using both the disk uitily tms diskwriter and jasmine software neither one will show the drive the drive the only device connected the scuzzi port cant find the manual the tms pro and seem remember that terminated there something else that doing not doing that does not allow recognize external disk drive thanks advance for the information eugene rosen genie erosen riverside road compuserve sandy hook aol gene rosen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	modem question art
comp.sys.mac.hardware	educational pricing article kyv dal hayes dal kevin hayes writes you can find retail that within the price keyboard educational prices would very wary retail outlets selling cheap educational prices went for retailer actually mail order cda computers because its price was better thant the campus computer store found out why later when tried get repair done apple registered repair center the cpu was resale the serial number had been removed and replaced with non standard number probably from cda computers consequently the apple repair man could not any warrenty repairs ended with just day warrenty from cda over the apple month warrenty boy was moral the story caveat emptor however you with reliable trustworthy mail order firm they exist maybe someone could enlighten with their experiences you will probably get better price than your local educational outlet simply because mail order out state does not require sales tax yet though for how much longer remains seen the addition sales tax cpu purchase will probably wipe out educational discount again caveat emptor some mail order companies include sales tax purchases even they are out state check richard richard appleyard jaguar csc wsu edu washington state university voice fax err human but really screw things takes computer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator for too interested peoples experience with accelerators for the accelerator the best route improve performace should consider upgrading motherboard obviously buying new mac would ideal but alas only have enough money for accelerator motherboard mail reply preferred thanks steve labovitz dept materials science engineering penn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	where can get the cheapest price all does anyone know where can get the cheapest price for the teleport gold fax modem global village any answer will highly appreciated thanks advance regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fix trackball the trackbal longer moves the horizontal direction when called the nearest authorized apple service person was told that probably needed replacing and that would cost over ouch can anyone recommend less expensive way fix this problem one strange symptom the problem that when take the ball out the socket and shine light into the hole can make the cursor move horizontally moving the wheel with finger works fine that way but won work turn off the light any suggestions comments ben roy just poor college student internet american edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor turning off its own article gcohen mailer acns fsu edu gcohen mailer acns fsu edu gregory cohen wrote article apr rhrk uni staudt physik uni willi staudt linder writes from staudt physik uni willi staudt linder subject monitor turning off its own date tue apr gmt kayc leland stanford edu writes have strange problem with apple monitor which hopefully someone can shed some light would using computer for minutes and then the screen would blank someone has switch the monitor off after the screen went off would not able turn the monitor off even turn the power off and back will have let the monitor sit over night and usually turns although doesnt stay for very long dooes anybody has similar experience with such problem before there some fuse the monitor that prevents from turning when try turn the monitor seems that the monitor tries turn but prevented some mechamism certain apple rgb monitors there has been problem with the high voltage capasitor apple knows about this problem and replacing the cap cost falls into the bad batch that they got from their supplier your local repair shop should know about repair extension
comp.sys.mac.hardware	laserjet iii printing non appletalk with duo how does one print non appletalk printer using dmm laserwriter stuff using the serial driverand does nothig vetried saving postscriptfile and then tried sending with sendps and says can topen laserwriter driver then some appletalk messagethatprinter not specified using and imagewritwrite one cable should use null modem adapter help lowell lowell reiter need vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	dead mouse macclassic mouse died dissected and determined that the microswitch that senses the click that stuck the depressed mode this tragedy prompts the following questions easy find microswitch that could solder into the place the old switch have old mice max mac can they used with some adapter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	general questions software and hardware have just been introduced macintosh systems have few questions mail prefered just what system want hard details not dingy commercials like their ads magazines has anyone used the microsoft office would like suggestions and descriptions each has microsoft before the actual name word excel power point mail what the major differences between mac wordperfect and word thanks lot
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa internal modem hear that the performa really lciii with internal modem can the modem part obtained and installed lciii would nice were actually powerbook internal modem but that might too much hope for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	interesting adb behaviour article apr waikato said know that plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power not supported and you can hit problems you have multiple devices with clashing addresses and all that had couple mail responses from people who seem believe that this sort thing not only unsupported downright dangerous have heard such warnings from anybody apple just sure asked couple our technicians one whom has been servicing macs for years there danger damaging logic boards plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power scsi yes adb lawrence oliveiro fone computer services dept fax university waikato electric mail ldo waikato hamilton new zealand gmt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov jim jagielski writes what the heck this this true aps has info since they get their formatter from apollyonics and they haven been any help actually transoft now and that what meant jim jagielski and gonna stiff say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iii nubus capable forgive this has been asked before but here goes friend recently purchased iii and wants know there such demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don carry them does this mean iii incapable carrying nubus board much obiliged marvin mmiller garnet msen com the more deal with hearing editor chief publisher people the more understand the deaf michigander terrorism year for marvin monthly newspaper mail for complimentary above quote does not apply copy today all hearing people though
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante adaptor won work with duo bill kurland bill panix com wrote guess this changes opinion them and thought would warn any prospective customers for the fwiw work for focus enhancements and lot the people sell our etherlan our scsi ethernet interface are disgruntled users also now need know anyone has been successful with the comparable product from dayna focus really don want use that nubus slot sigh wish had better news the focus etherlan currently incompatible with the duos this may change the future have apple register compatible cards that are compatible with the duodocks though send questions focus applelink apple com peter cohen rather telecommuting
comp.sys.mac.hardware	interesting adb behaviour article djcohen yalevm ycc yale edu daniel cohen djcohen yalevm ycc yale edu writes noticed interesting phenomenon centris unplug the keyboard and mouse and plug them again without turning the power off the mouse suddenly switches about half its normal movement speed check the mouse control panel and there change its setting there still full speed the way like restarting the machine restores the normal mouse speed the way happens with both the newer style mouse that came with the centris and the older style mouse from iifx work thus don think has anything with the resolution setting the mouse definitely quirk the adb interface either hardware software the centris itself have noticed this exact same phenomenon occurs with lciii perhaps quirk the new machines sorry but mine works fine cents worth
comp.sys.mac.hardware	best frontplate for syquest iivi iivx could someone tell how make find get the best frontplate for iivi iivx with internal syquest drive there one available have make one from the original rom one scratch every suggestion welcome jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	spigot iii friend mine has problems running spigot iii his configuration spigot iii system video spigot extension would appriciate can get any postitive negative experience with this setup thanks amir
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what rom accelerated video article apr reed edu especkma reed edu erik speckman writes the macuser article the new centris and quadra machines mentioned that the and the and not the had rom accelerated video what don recall seeing dale adams post course was dale post just not the words that macuser used rom accelerated video just means that some quickdraw commands has been rewritten inside the rom take advantage the addressing modes commands that fills should slightly faster since the new instructions fetch bytes time versus one
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor shut down res there defect the res monitors bring dealer and they will replace the flyback for free think just heard this problem work today and are fixing them for free
comp.sys.mac.hardware	dead mouse 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video iici what need able run nec fgx mode iici can done with the right video card which video card michael
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer engr computer science article apr macadam com mike macadam com writes freshman college and can decide whether major computer engineering computer science any advice suggestions will appreciated thanks mike professor mine once said the difference between computer engineer and computer scientist about meaning the engineer makes more than the seriously though the main difference that most people write programs that people will use database graphics word processors etc while engineer writes for machines control systems the computer your car flight control system computer controled devices etc other words writes software while cse writes firmware these are generalizations but for the most part that what the difference the not just joke scott
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac scsi pmmu socket question this posting for friend who does not have usenet access please contact him not directly thank you the mac supposed have socket for the pmmu chip could anyone let know where that socket the motherboard have obtained pmmu chip mhz from surplus store and would like install onto mac circa but cannot see the socket myself when tried install could anyone send the pinouts for the mac scsi interface thank you contact david chan bzone attmail com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor shut down res article apr guvax acc georgetown edu hew guvax acc georgetown edu writes there defect the res monitors bring dealer and they will replace the flyback for free think just heard this problem work today and are fixing them for free the service notice the res monitors expired after this date apple will not reimburse service providers for the fix replacement the voltage capacitor all you folks that have been putting with intermittant shutdowns without getting your service provider missed out the freebie was force for year you got free after you got deal jeff hite computing center oregon jeffh ludwig uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	more general questions have two questions what would required create macintosh network including laser printers line printers etc what would bare minimum create network for the primary purpose networking laser printer approx mac
comp.sys.mac.hardware	set lbs top centris article hvjx news cso uiuc edu dlbg uxa cso uiuc edu david berk writes recently purchased centris and mirror technologies inch mono monitor wondering set the monitor top the cpu the monitor weighs lbs called apple the person spoke with was not sure but was going find out and call back couple days that was over week ago anybody knows please respond via email don always have time read this group thanks david berk berk uiuc edu yea thanks lots good information this newsgroup was prepared for lots details even shipping time got weeks guess biggest disappointment the lack detail the written specs and documentation the case load spec example the setup section says apple and monitors can top but and other big ones can why couldn they publish maximum load now can figure out there any hope using the partition button the hard disk setup utility dare just try and see what happens then maybe can divide the wealth among the family members bit more securly the getting more information section the manual suggested trying other avenues before calling apple but didn mention the net mike feldman motorola computer group fax east university avenue pager urbana mcdphx uiucuxc udc feldman feldman urbana mcd mot com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	specs appreciate greatly someone could mail the following you only know one that fine specs for the esp how compares the pentium specs for the with estimated cost release date etc interested speeds systems can run windows risc whatever costs bus info register info all the technical info hoping that the can win yet another battle against the intel people thanks for any info you can give thanks lazer patrick delahanty warning mst star trek fan macintosh user internet patrickd wpi wpi edu and sysop blues bbs lazer lablues uucp call blues bbs macintosh user for macintosh dos files free usenet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	errors was quadra differences rdk cec wustl edu robert david klapper writes also believe that the fixed bug the cpu which screwed some floating point calculations does anyone have details this what sort errors the sensitive having some strange problems with intensive program getting lot segment loader errors thinkc and system gregory woodbury the wolves den unix durham standard disclaimers uucp dukcds wolves ggw duke wolves ggw use the maps domain ggw wolves durham ggw wolves duke duke edu this site not affiliated with duke university idiots
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard article uiuc edu tthiel uiuc edu terry thiel writes ijust got new datadesk keyboard with new centris and have problem doing desktop rebuilds hold down the command and option keys and restart but nothing happens the dip switches are set the right way and the command and option keys seem work anything else running btw anyone know what the problem terry terry recently bought lciii and datadesk can remember trying rebuild the desktop with however did give strange problem when held down shift during startup disable all extensions nothing happened tried with another keyboard using the same adb connector cable and worked with the other keyboard the shift key the datadesk keyboard worked well otherwise checked the dipswitches and they are fine try disabling your extensions and tell works annoyed with datadesk sent them the keyboard the mail for inspection repair replacement the technician the phone said they have day turn around time meaning you should receive the inspected repaired keyboard that time well they have had the keyboard for over weeks and still have gotten very little info from them about annoying because cost send them the keyboard they not refund the money and their costumer service lines are toll calls tell you have similar experience david mirsky gnu mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard article uiuc edu tthiel uiuc edu terry thiel writes ijust got new datadesk keyboard with new centris and have problem doing desktop rebuilds hold down the command and option keys and restart but nothing happens the dip switches are set the right way and the command and option keys seem work anything else running btw anyone know what the problem terry resending this message because news program may have goofed the first time terry recently bought lciii and datadesk don remember trying rebuild the desktop with however did give strange problem when held down shift during startup disable all extensions nothing happened tried with another keyboard using the same adb connector cable and worked with the other keyboard the shift key the datadesk keyboard worked well otherwise checked the dipswitches and they are fine try disabling your extensions and tell works annoyed with datadesk sent them the keyboard the mail for inspection repair replacement the technician the phone said they have day turn around time meaning you should receive the inspected repaired keyboard that time well they have had the keyboard for over weeks and still have gotten very little info from them about annoying because cost send them the keyboard and their technical support line not toll free tell you have similar experience with them david mirsky mirsky gnu mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	educational pricing article apr jaguar csc wsu edu jaguar csc wsu edu writes article kyv dal hayes dal kevin hayes writes you can find retail that within the price keyboard educational prices would very wary retail outlets selling cheap educational prices went for retailer actually mail order cda computers because its price was better thant the campus computer store found out why later when tried get repair done apple registered repair center the cpu was resale the serial number had been removed and replaced with non standard number probably from cda computers consequently the apple repair man could not any warrenty repairs ended with just day warrenty from cda over the apple month warrenty boy was moral the story caveat emptor apple does not authorise sales through mail order result mail order companies have obtain their machines the grey market this market supplied with machines from authorised resellers who have more machines than they can sell they come into this state affairs overordering either accidentally deliberatly get better wholsale price from apple either case they often obscure the serial nunber protect their identity result the warranty void you may save sales tax but you have pay for shipping should also point out that mail order companies cannot get lower prices thatn the high volume authorised dealers unless they buy below dealer cost result the only way they can sell cheaper cutting costs and trimming margins unfortunatly they dont seem doing too well the lowest prices have been quoted mailorder not beat the lowest prices available from authorised local dealers they are even further away from educational prices erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fix trackball the little blue roller the trackball interior probably rubbing against its support just push down the pin that longer touches had similar problem rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	jump starting mac did you remember clamp ground the engine block first rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fix trackball course you want check the honesty your dealler take knowing what wrong and ask them tell you course probably know right way then charge you service fee rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii powerpc own lciii and recently heard interesting rumor heard that the lciii has built slot for powerpc chip this true heard that the slot not the same the pds slot that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	printer blp elite article ghoetker nova glen hoetker ghoetker nova sti nasa gov writes the market for post script compatible laser writer needs are pretty modest dpi pages minute would just fine budget also pretty modest inexpensive would also good will working from single mac but networkability would probably good investment for the future with that mind anyone have comments about the suitability quality value gcc blp elite printer just recently purchased the gcc blp elite and really like needs are much the same what you describe addition wanted get one that could access via appletalk that eliminated the new line inexpensive printers from apple the print quality good excellent based what font you using and what paper you use still experimenting with different papers but medium grade laser printer paper seems work fine printing envelopes transpariencies letter head other single feed jobs very easy there adjustable automatic centering guide top the sheet feeder which aligns the paper properly and doesn feed sheet from the sheet feeder some have affiliation with gcc just satisfied customer earl fife department mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids
comp.sys.mac.hardware	daystar again article fqno news udel edu bill johnston johnston udel edu writes going buy daystar with mhz for the since there were many mails about problems with this board questions does the board work with and does anybody know problems with any kind software well haven seen any reports problems with the turbo but knowledge daystar has not released version the board that works with anything but the iisi and iici and they have not finished tweaking testing for use with this may not happen until the upgrade released guess recommend waiting buying the mhz board and upgrade later when compatibility assured turbo interface cards for the iix iicx etc will probably available sooner but compatibility requirement probably best patient and let someone else the pioneer added advantate waiting for the daystar for the that just with the power cache the accelerator will plug into the cpu socket leaving the pds slot free for video card ethernet card with daystar upgrade path lose situation earl fife department mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris zack smith writes konpej eua ericsson per ejeklint writes maybe missing something but the centris has the with fpu least the ones shipped here europe you are indeed the model shipped here definitely does not have the fpu own one know not missing anything you right that some models the ship the usa without fpu ethernet per ejeklint also right all repeat all centris sold here new zealand and assume europe have the fpu and ethernet know bought and has both fpu and ethernet
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock upgrades just completed successful upgrade mhz waiting delivery mhz clock for final speed trial definitely needed the heatsink the cpu was quite hot the touch higher speeds until glued cent radio shack sink made call for reports failures last week reports have arrived here locally seattle there reported cpu damage due the user slipping with the iron and putting gash into the board not exactly problem due the cpu running too fast think would nice have poll report top speeds and system configurations including pds and nubus cards which were used happy coordinate and report results guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	conversion clark nwu edu brian clark writes article apr vax oxford roes vax oxford wrote working data acquisition and analysis program collect data from insect sensory organs stuff deleted another alternative the use the sound input port can you really make due with the non existent dynamic range bit converter probably dubious linearity and monotonicity and perhaps coupled well clearly depends the type questions you are asking but many cases will fine the critical information from the neuron the firing frequency maximum about action potentials per seconds and not the amplitude the signal details the signal shape the resolution about you get with bit convertor more then sufficient coupling does not have problem either since many cases you are not interested the level pre amplifier coupled also the critical point the lowest frequency that will pass the cutoff point high the action potentials will slightly distorted but even that normally does not matter since the occurrence the spike that important however want know what exactly can expect before start battling with the toolbox get going yet have clue were start looking for the technical specifications peter roes vax oxford
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter question article egaillou miniac egaillou etu gel ulaval eric gailloux writes just read article the swii one thing puzzles the article says the swii serial only device does that mean have unplug modem each time want print something plug the printer the printer port and the modem the modem port
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fix trackball article auvm american edu auvm american edu writes the trackbal longer moves the horizontal direction when called the nearest authorized apple service person was told that probably needed replacing and that would cost over ouch can anyone recommend less expensive way fix this problem one strange symptom the problem that when take the ball out the socket and shine light into the hole can make the cursor move horizontally moving the wheel with finger works fine that way but won work turn off the light any suggestions comments ben roy just poor college student internet american edu ben since you obviously adept enough understand how the trackball works the only thing short repairing that can think thorough cleaning all the parts and then checking for the proper placement the little blue rollers since they aren fixed position their stainless steel pins you might try sliding them into slightly different position powerbook can slide them almost completely out contact with the trackball fact one the notes from sumex fixing the trackball advocates sliding the roller that its edge contacts the ball not the center cylindrical area done this with and does seem improve the feel but needs adjusted from time time just popped open one our office and while there isn much latitude for movement one could still adjust the roller slightly your the same might help would suspect the most likely culprit slippery blue roller you can take out clean with mild soapy solution isopropyl alcohol also sure the ball grease free you drop the ball minus the retaining ring roll the ball and see actually causing the axle spin all this still doesn solve then maybe new one order could electrical connection which case replacement would necessary but experience with both mice and trackballs has been that dirt has been the normal problem not electrical malfunction hope this helps murray murray altheim ils ont orteil bouc chevreil oreille instructional consultant corne chamois face vermeille csu sacramento comme rouge croissant dancent toute nuict altheimm csus edu dedans carrefour pres une eau qui bruict
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug lreiter jade tufts edu lowell reiter writes duo crashe close the lid goesto sleeplikenormal then open press key the screen showsthis wied pattern you can berely make outthe menubar top although there are words the bar anditfrezzes why lowell lowell reiter need vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu have the same problem and was about post this hello duo owners and apple technical people have new duo which appears have problem waking from sleep when running battery power when woken usually for the second time after sleeping the wake fails and the screen appears with corrupted image broken horizontal lines and control can only recovered with control command poweron the reset key the back the machine the problem occurs even when the system stock standard extensions virtual memory fully charged new battery system etc have not had the problem when the machine plugged checked that the battery properly seated appears fine what going here anyone else had this problem software hardware you have duo and bit time try repeatedly sleeping and waking the machine battery power and let know you see the same behaviour and let apple know too many thanks anyone who can clear this one for bruce bruce tulloch sydney australia brucet extro ucc complex problems have straight forward easy understand wrong answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii problems finally got computer fixed and like sum about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector something was ibm the new one quantum the lciii supposed shipped with ibms there quality difference apparently second about hard drive position put the lciii its side and the new has had problems all even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are problems far concerned don believe position important for drives meg any computer don know about rom though just like everything else life the right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug not have this type problem but one point apple rep told that duo system enabler file version fixes some kind sleep related problem you may want investigate this josip loncaric
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stylewriter question just read article the swii one thing puzzles the article says the swii serial only device does that mean have unplug modem each time want print something the printer port the mac also serial has the same interface the imagewriter kris system fourd com phone cute quote being computer means never having say you sorry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powervision for the market for internal color video adaptor for was wondering anyone has used the powervision adaptor made mirror can you tell how feel about the speed and compatability might also interested other boards envisio etc you have such board please mail your opinion thanks advance john
comp.sys.mac.hardware	interesting adb behaviour article apr waikato ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university writes article apr waikato said know that plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power not supported and you can hit problems you have multiple devices with clashing addresses and all that had couple mail responses from people who seem believe that this sort thing not only unsupported downright dangerous have heard such warnings from anybody apple just sure asked couple our technicians one whom has been servicing macs for years there danger damaging logic boards plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power noooooooo been servicing macs for years too and had repair number motherboards that had been damaged this way rare but does happen mind you this doesn mean you shouldn the parts that can blow the adb power fuse and filter aren too expensive you have someone around who can component level repair may worth the risk especially you around seattle cause you might get pay fix the other hand your only repair option the apple standard logic board swap major you should probably play safe scsi yes adb scsi yes adb yes floppies yes they can all cause trouble gordon davisson davisson stein washington edu westwind computing university way suite seattle
comp.sys.mac.hardware	new duo dock with process seth fail see any advantage whatsoever with this kind set seth what dumb idea don buy one kristen this copy freddie being evaluated origin leo technology hst
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook freezes after seconds help few days ago powerbook starts freeze after appr seconds inactivity stays alive long program actively running long the mouse moved did anyone experience similar problems any known fixes please reply email can read this newsgroup normally regards mike fisher efisher ntu frank siebenlist franks ntu senior research fellow gintic institute manufacturing technology gimt nanyang technological university ntu nanyang avenue singapore tel fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	daystar turbo opinions thinking about upgrading mhz the version has anyone had any experience with the accelerator and what you think any problems what are the speedometer results much faster than the mhz basically appreciate hearing all about this product please respond via email and summarize there big response thanks advance andrew
comp.sys.mac.hardware	interesting adb behaviour article nainn shelley washington edu davisson stein washington edu gordon davisson writes mind you this doesn mean you shouldn the parts that can blow the adb power fuse and filter aren too expensive you have someone around who can component level repair may worth the risk especially you around seattle cause you might get pay fix the other hand your only repair option the apple standard logic board swap major you should probably play safe scsi yes adb yes floppies yes they can all cause trouble otoh some get lucky unplugged and replugged scsi and adb quite often and never blown anything blew out the adb shorting the cable though matthew russotto russotto eng umd edu russotto wam umd edu some news readers expect disclaimer here just say police searches and seizures make them use force not responsible for bodily harm resulting from following above advice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	seeking fax for network access seeking recommendations vendors for networkable fax would mainly used for outgoing fax from mac our net the ability fax from other platforms would plus ethernet interface would preffered but localtalk would suffice can anyone provide any info thanks advance peter peter haase internet haase meediv lanl gov network manager los alamos national laboratory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	want use deskjet system used deskjet with orange micros grappler system but now update system system with kanji talk then can not print deskjet the grappler old can use deskjet system please tell how use deskjet system thank you from japan mori volga mfd fujitsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help macintosh luggable has lines its screen okay don use very much but would like for keep working correctly least long apple continues make system software that will run slowly here the problem when the screen tilted too far back vertical lines appear the screen they are every pixels and seem affected somewhat opening windows and pulling down menus looks semi technical person like there loose connection between the screen and the rest the computer open suggestions that not involve buying new computer taking this one the shop would also like not have buy one larry pina books like larry but not sure feel strongly enough about the computer buy service manual for related note what does the monitor connector connect erik
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa plus monitor would like know performa plus monitor compatible with apple color display just vga moniro any help will appreciate
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rack mount prices here good one does anyone know product that allows rack mount maybe blow some more money application music and would like able haul around would probably plan get drive something don have depend internal fixed hard drive may pretty rough internal the san francisco bay area that matters also anyone have any info and midi and would anyone care email with the price they paid for their there price list faq never mind just curious about the difference between the best retailers and the local university pricing thanks jeff adams adams upse mtv gtegsc com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what the current rom version shipping syquest drives the title says all need know the and rom versions steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug mysstem crashes aftwer sleepp use enabler use appletalk and filesharing have and expressmodem lowell lowell reiter need vacation now tufts university internet account lreiter jade tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris decstation net adapter pnsf smucs umassd edu dennis wilkinson writes not necessarily thrid party adapter apple does manufacture transceivers for thinwire and baset twisted pair cable media well aui attachment unit interface transciever they run each you use thinwire baset you probably also need terminators apple transceivers are self terminated remember correctly but have idea about decs the third party media adapters are usually cheaper least toronto than apple bought the adapters from asante instead apple gurman umbra gsfc nasa gov joseph gurman writes the decstation models and come with thinwire only can say for certain about the models and your best bet that not true only the decstation comes with thinwire bnc coaxial ethernet connector the and all have single pin aui ethernet connector only distinctly remembered this because when got the first and thought all them are going thinwire eventually had back and ordered destas dec oversized version aui bnc adapter that must used with transciever cable for the rest the stations advise the very original poster beverly all you want create lan with two workstations and won add machines ever for thinwire regardless the media type going for utp unshielded twisted pair wiring requires concentrator which means extra money and believe these units come with least ports for thicknet nightmare and cabling expensive avoid unless you have choice the two machines are two floors parts the mac side you will need one thinwire media adapter from apple third party macx make sure you get version won run system mactcp which comes with macx you get macx you should getting mactcp with don use earlier versions centris you may may not need ohm terminator depending the thinwire media adapter just ask the sales the adapter self terminated not configure mactcp use ethernet the decstation side you will need for model you will only need connector for models you will need aui bnc adapter get one that can plugged directly the aui port the decstation this way you save the cost transciever cable pin aui male pin aui female cable get ohm terminator your two machine network will look like this decstation centris decstation centris ohm terminator connector thinwire coaxial cable aui bnc thick thin adapter thickwire media adapter assuming self terminated andy andy sun andy utoronto taddle creek road toronto computing coordinator ontario canada department industrial engineering phone university toronto fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	vga monitors and the mac series computers recall reading that the mac and presumably the iii can use stand ard vga monitors with appropriate cable adapters uncertain this sinc have asked other people who say this not can all vga monitors used the mac what are the specs needed for monitor work with mac horizontal nad vertical frequencies
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lcd overhead projectors apr eds com jan camhpp mdcbbs com jan vandenbrande writes looking for one those color lcd screens you place overhead projector and control the presentation with mac can you recommend particular brand what price are talking about for good display you must get active matrix panel and very bright overhead projector designed used with lcd panel stage must not get too hot tried out proxima ovation unit and liked but needed brighter projector used with also too expensive for what you get imho prices active matrix panels are rumoured drop substantially sometime this year something with tarrifs being lifted think canadian dollars the proxima ovation models ranged price from about and good overhead projector about for that kind money you can get brighter image from three beam projector but sacrifice portability yes proper room lighting extremely important especially you want your audience have enough light read handouts and not have that light wash out your display the front the room tricky get right
comp.sys.mac.hardware	toshiba and rom notice the toshiba has versions internal external and portable can anyone tell the difference between the portable and the external version where the bay area can find model thanks bill william daul advanced support informix software inc bohannon menlo park uunet infmx billd billd informix com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	converting keyboard for mac plus have old mac plus couple years ago bought shiney new came with apple new keyboard with abd ports replaced with mac pro plus extended keyboard which thoroughly enjoy thank you very much well have this extra keyboard which would like use the plus but there little problem the plus uses jack for keyboard input and the new keyboards don got extra adb cable from local apple dealer they such nice people but they couldn tell the order the wires there are four wires the adb cables black white red tan know one ground one gets the serial signal one supplies volts and forgot what the fourth one does anyway you hook them wrong you fry board and really don want that any brave souls out there have done this before please mail your experience directly would greatly appreciate especially since apple original keyboard not ergonomically correct btw did take apart new keyboard see could find the correlation between the wires for the jack and the adb since has both but such luck the connections are soldered inside little boxes well tis the blink eye tis the draught breath from the blossoms health the paleness death from the gilded saloon the briar the shroud why should the spirit mortal proud william knox shagberg cmp ilstu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable internal fax modems does anyone know where can still get internal fax modem for the original mac portable know they were made for while several manufacturers but can find them now thanks for your help gene wright gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable ram problems coprocessor not installed just recently bought ram card for original mac portable backlit and have since had some bizarre crashes happens when put the machine sleep and wake the machine sometimes will just freeze the cursor and lock the machine forcing push the reset switch other times will give the usual bomb box with the error message processor not installed know one solution not put the machine sleep but does anyone have any ideas what could causing this better yet what might fix the memory card psuedostatic ram and goes into the pds slot that probably figures into the problem the manufacturer king memory not kingston from irvine they say the problem machine any ideas gene wright gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	driver for dataframe need the driver for the bernoulli cartridge dataframe the hard disk the system got fried and haven been able locate the original disks anyone has know where can get this please let know via mail thanks advance wayne lyle wayne lyle dilworth paxson kalish kauffman philadelphia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	questions about the centris ram with little luck could own sometime the near future and was just wondering someone could clear these two questions for what speed simms does the need want know that needs vram not sure for the main ram heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility the ram and megs which true perhaps another phrasing would better does the meg version come with all megs the logic board megs meg simm just wondering dave hollinsworth hlsw ltd uhura rochester edu astounding time fleeting madness takes play its toll riff raff rocky horror picture show pinball disclaimer they opinions are they yours
comp.sys.mac.hardware	replacing internal fdhd floptical all have iisi with floppy drive that might bad and might just out alignment haven checked yet the drive not easily reparable like replace with internal floptical can this easily done can done all assuming that floptical drives can read and write both and floppies this not fact true please tell thanks advance kiran
comp.sys.mac.hardware	colour card for the wouldany one know afair price for color card aussie dollars just wondering the views expressed this posting those the individual author only bbs number maccontent victoria first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ram upgrade will slow yes what you are saying absolutey true but what you fail mention the fact that the lciii uses the new pin simms which allow bit access each simm the case the iii only has one simm slot but accesses will bits wides the views expressed this posting those the individual author only bbs number maccontent victoria first iconic bbs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	interesting adb behaviour apr waikato ldo waikato lawrence oliveiro waikato university writes have heard such warnings from anybody apple just sure asked couple our technicians one whom has been servicing macs for years there danger damaging logic boards plugging and unplugging adb devices with the power the problem that the pins the adb connector are close each other and you happen bend the cable little while inserting you short the adb port you take apple repair centre that means new motherboard though component replace physically possible same goes for serial ports localtalk well cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe this article printed recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what rom accelerated video qknuq agate berkeley edu web berkeley edu james wang writes addressing modes commands that fills should slightly faster since the new instructions fetch bytes time versus one even the can fetch two bytes time the new instruction the move which fetches bytes time instead which the has that means bit pixels instead one cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe this article printed recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding int hard disk drive iicx haven seen much info about how add extra internal disk mac would like try and wonder someone had some good advice have mac iicx with the original internal quantum hard disk and unusable floppy drive also have new spare connor disk which would like use the idea replace the broken floppy drive with the new hard disk but there seems some problems the internal scsi cable and power cable inside the has only connectors for one single hard disk drive made ribbon cable and power cable with three connectors each for motherboard for each the disks would work the iicx able supply the extra power the extra disk what about terminators suppose that should remove the resistor packs from the disk that closest the motherboard but leave them installed the other disk the scsi jumpers should also changed that the new disk gets the old one should have problem for remove the floppy drive have external floppy that can use won boot the hard disk thank you torbj rognes email rogntorb idt unit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wanted hard drive the market for hard drive have iisi with and almost all filled anyone selling any for the mac for cheap where can get one through mail order and where the best place buy from for the best prices there anyone the net this newsgroup that sells them for wholesale cheaper any info would appreciated thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi power limitations own mac iisi and considering upgrades cards hard drive etc can you tell what the power limitations are for the pds slot and the hard drive power feed secondly can you tell there separate limit for each instead there single limit for both combined felix lin new reader comp sys mac hardware feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results silent corruption data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although will not name the devices since not their fault example would sony inch without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes disable blind writes this doesn sound right don quadras use the the mac has nothing with the scsi timing that all handled the chip about the only the timing could wrong apple programs the clock registers wrong the that however should only really hurt synchronous transfer which not used the mac scsi manager furthermore disabling blind writes should meaningless quadra macs that used the which much lower level scsi chip the mac was responsible for the handshake each byte transferred blind mode affected how the mac handled that handshake the the handshake entirely handled the chip tim smith
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can get more than monitor article carsona sfu carsona fraser sfu debra carson writes would virtual screen larger size use you have been using stepping out for some time still working now powerbook with system minor problem with menubar icons right edge what the latest version stepping out that works with denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for free share wares looking for ftp sites where there are freewares sharewares for mac will help lot there are driver source codes those ftp sites any information appreciated thanks advance young dept info univ tokyo email young tokyo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	questions about the centris ram article apr galileo rochester edu hlsw ltd uhura rochester edu dave hollinsworth wrote with little luck could own sometime the near future and was just wondering someone could clear these two questions for what speed simms does the need want know that needs vram not sure for the main ram pin simms heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility the ram and megs which true perhaps another phrasing would better does the meg version come with all megs the logic board megs meg simm configs each case the memory soldered the board leaving the simm sockets open the total addressable memory for just wondering michael mcguire mcguire utkvx utk edu utcc user services
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disappearing hard drive the internal disappeared for day last week and like hear any reasonable theories folks can suggest for what happened with ram and internal drive running system with few scsi devices far know properly terminated chain had shut down the system for day was out town and sometimes have thunderstorms this time year and upon restarting got blinking question mark booted from floppy and saw that external seemed okay but there was sign the internal installed system folder the external and was indeed able boot from tried things like disk first aid and silverlining inquire about the internal drive they either could not find got errors trying talk silverlining claimed was connor drive but quantum well backed things was able work but some point noticed that the internal had reappeared now disk first aid says that all well etc things seem fine but what happened was this warning that something the internal something else about die definitely nervous and this signal that the internal sick true that can only put drive inside some folks have claimed there limitation the other size power while others and that includes lacie over the phone say anything that fits okay thanks for answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	disabling all power management interrupts could someone please one the following point init that allows turn off power management duo write init that would allow turn off all power management duo point documentation power management that can write such init explain why such init totally partially impossible ideally course would like able turn and off the fly surely such init would very helpful powerbook owners who want midi cannot imagine why not possible unless requires apple divluge some secret and that the case the surely apple could write the init unless apple brings out new models fast these days that even they don know how they work scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple announce new performas versions the article apr desire wright edu demon desire wright edu not boomer writes apple announced that will start selling three new vesions its performa the new machines will have built modems and bundled software the new models will the and prices are not set apple but the retailer the prices the new machines are expected range from what kind post this you have something substantial tell the world then least give details what they are coming out with new macs they always that what new about these models etc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard datadesk mac keyboard has similar problems have found that holding down the right hand shift key startup will work disable extensions but the left hand shift key won which unfortunate since the left one the one instinctively reach for similarly have trained myself hold down the right hand pair command option for desktop rebuilds irritating cheers michael michael smith smith pell anu edu mathematics research section australian national university
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory upgrades jacob plasma ssl berkeley edu nga throgaw shaygiy writes excuse this frequent question checked several faqs but couldn really find anything you are excused the answer varies from mac mac would complex answer the faq have iisi with the standard meg memory and want need add additional memory but budget really don need more than meg max what the best performance wise and most economical way this someone told that should only use simms the same amount memory that meg meg etc what just wanted buy just meg and use the rest what already have the manual hasn been very helpful with this the uses bit wide data bus and therefore you must use bit wide simms sorry but short cuts here thanks you quite welcome greg words not motorola equal rights not special rights gpb gpb mac sps mot com will not ride the back the bus greg berryman silence death motorola austin texas usa first true yourself glb mailing list glblist gpb mac sps mot com motorola only
comp.sys.mac.hardware	set lbs top centris had the same question for nec monitor the apple guy said that their monitor put ontop the centris and had coment beyond that was going just put the nec the box but then got thinking the monitor has small tilt swivel base maybe the weight would more concentrated than with apple don know the area the base their tilt swivel additionally the cdrom drive the middle cut piece thick wood about covered cream covered cloth and used buffer layer between the centris top and the monitor mick mueck mick mueck analog com hate chipsoft macintax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	thunderscan got spare imagewriter cover anyone have the replacement cover needed use thunderscan with imagewriter can fool the printer into working without its own cover sticking suitable magnet into its cover sensor thanks for any help ralph the magnet trick will work careful when you apply the white tape the rubber carriage roller tells the scanner where the edge and can come off jim edgeways infolink name edgeway wimsey gui bbs voice the views expressed here are the individual author only from firstclass postalunion lite from north vancouver canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii problems article apr leland stanford edu ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu writes finally got computer fixed and like sum about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector something was ibm the new one quantum the lciii supposed shipped with ibms there quality difference apparently second about hard drive position put the lciii its side and the new has had problems all even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are problems far concerned don believe position important for drives meg any computer don know about rom though just like everything else life the right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu ravi its not good idea have horizontally formatted hard disk vertical position the drive formatted horizontal position can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull vertical position not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow months from now but why take that chance you want more detailed info the problem please mail sunnyt dna bchs edu sunny
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii problems sideways article qmgjk menudo edu sunnyt coding bchs edu writes its not good idea have horizontally formatted hard disk vertical position the drive formatted horizontal position can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull vertical position not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow months from now but why take that chance you want more detailed info the problem please mail sunnyt dna bchs edu sunny asked this question while ago while contemplating placing side received response from someone seagate sorry trashed the message stating that most newer drives seagates the least can very well compensate for gravity this means that horizontally formatted drive can later placed vertically with data integrity problems the only way that newer drives cannot work you have varying forces shaking bouncing etc don place the drive side rocking chair what constitutes newer drive don know try calling your drive manufacturer have quantum internal and since got month ago guessing newer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	want use deskjet system article mori apr ceres mfd fujitsu mori volga mfd fujitsu tsuyoshi mori writes used deskjet with orange micros grappler system but now update system system with kanji talk then can not print deskjet the grappler old can use deskjet system please tell how use deskjet system thank you from japan mori volga mfd fujitsu currently use deskjet with grappler ver and works system course only use the swa dutch and swa swiss fonts that came with due the size requirement print the must have pnt definition print pnt font when upgraded talked orange micro and they state that ver grappler definitely works with system however the upgrade was passed hope this helps marc marc donovan donovan bnr voice fax disclaimer the only one responsible for opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii powerpc mirsky hal gnu mit edu david joshua mirsky writes own lciii and recently heard interesting rumor heard that the lciii has built slot for powerpc chip this true heard that the slot not the same the pds slot that true don believe the hype there such thing powerpc slot hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems don know about the specific problem mentioned your message but definitely had scsi problems between and venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives solution was get silverlining none the loops that involved blind writes worked the drives fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems tzs stein washington edu tim smith writes attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results silent corruption data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although will not name the devices since not their fault example would sony inch without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes disable blind writes this doesn sound right don quadras use the the mac has nothing with the scsi timing that all handled the chip about the only the timing could wrong apple programs the clock registers wrong the that however should only really hurt synchronous transfer which not used the mac scsi manager furthermore disabling blind writes should meaningless quadra macs that used the which much lower level scsi chip the mac was responsible for the handshake each byte transferred blind mode affected how the mac handled that handshake the the handshake entirely handled the chip the docs say that scsi manager bug this changes things all jim jagielski and gonna stiff say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark nodine writes don know about the specific problem mentioned your message but definitely had scsi problems between and venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives solution was get silverlining none the loops that involved blind writes worked the drives fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means doubt this quadra specific problem had get rid venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased each make the whole thing worth more than whole computer the tech support guys ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem case the cartridges wouldn format mount partition for bill johnston johnston udel edu chambers street newark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac scsi pmmu socket question article qkmb jethro corp sun com khc marantz corp sun com writes the mac supposed have socket for the pmmu chip could anyone let know where that socket the motherboard have obtained pmmu chip mhz from surplus store and would like install onto mac circa but cannot see the socket myself when tried install the original mac had apple mmu chip installed which performs subset the functions you look underneath your front left floppy bay you will find three chips all approximately the same size one will the the next the and the third approximately the same size will the apple chip easy spot because has hump the middle example that and the apple logo should make easy find ben mpretzel utexas edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii problems ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu writes about hard drive companies the original meg drive that was bad bad sector something was ibm the new one quantum the lciii supposed shipped with ibms there quality difference officially from experience yours now included yes quantums seem the most problem free brand the mac second about hard drive position put the lciii its side and the new has had problems all even switched back and forth between horizontal and vertical and there are problems far concerned don believe position important for drives meg any computer don know about rom though should not matter for the hard drive the mac well long doesn fall over doug this signature under construction wyvern technologies tidewater premier online information system login guest password guest register
comp.sys.mac.hardware	noisy what can article rjinn cae cad gatech edu vincent cad gatech edu vincent fox writes there this old here got the older style fans that remind house ventilator cylindrical drum instead the bladed rotor usually see anyway the makes this loud buzzing noise due vibration somewheres remove the screws and loosen the front from the back quiets down can only assume that the fan housing from this goofy thing touching the back the case and vibrating against anyway any suggestions for where get replacement fans and how stealth this guy your experiences welcome everything had gone planned everything would have been perfect batf spokesperson cnn regarding failed raid attempt when owned replaced the fan with silencer available believe from macwarehouse macconnection comes with instruction for installation and requires soldering worked like charm think the manufacturer mobius dave dlc umcc ais org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iii nubus capable mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes friend recently purchased iii and wants know there such demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don carry them does this mean iii incapable carrying nubus board yes that exactly what means the family macs can only use pds cards they are not able use nubus hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desktop rebuild and datadesk keyboard smith pell anu edu michael smith writes similarly have trained myself hold down the right hand pair command option for desktop rebuilds tried the right set and didn work the phone their tech support right now and the guys doesn know what desktop rebuild got holding for someone else and holding and holding and holding they finally got back and said basically should work well doens and they don know why guess will back macconnection and buy something else got better things than play musical keyboards terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	qxf fekvh regards rod cerkoney rod cerkoney email hewlett packard rodc com east harmony hpdesk fort collins
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fpu probably dumb question possible fit fpu mac not but the plain old possible would get any speed increase what would the reference the chip thanks advance sylvain louboutin phone mail sloubtin dsg tcd distributed system group reilly institute room fax department computer science trinity college dublin ireland ask
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii powerpc article qksuq hal gnu mit edu mirsky hal gnu mit edu david joshua mirsky writes own lciii and recently heard interesting rumor heard that the lciii has built slot for powerpc chip this true heard that the slot not the same the pds slot that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu mit edu well also have iii popping the top revealed one socket for additional vram simm one socket for pin ram simm one socket for flat pack fpu processor direct slot pds identical the but with additional set connetions one side for the full bit data path that the lacked that guess board with powerpc chip could made that would fit the pds but that the only place andre molyneux wvv insert your favorite disclaimer here pyramid technology corp internet first street andrem pyramid com san jose packet wvv ary nocal usa
comp.sys.mac.hardware	questions about the centris ram article mcguire newsserver utcc utk edu mcguire utkvx utk edu michael mcguire wrote article apr galileo rochester edu hlsw ltd uhura rochester edu dave hollinsworth wrote with little luck could own sometime the near future and was just wondering someone could clear these two questions for what speed simms does the need want know that needs vram not sure for the main ram pin simms heard two conflicting stories about the total expandibility the ram and megs which true perhaps another phrasing would better does the meg version come with all megs the logic board megs meg simm configs each case the memory soldered the board leaving the simm sockets open the total addressable memory for according the seen several times postings from dale adams apple computer both the and the require simms not only the centris requires simms pete
comp.sys.mac.hardware	setup partition was set lbs top centris article apr urbana mcd mot com feldman urbana mcd mot com mike feldman wrote now can figure out there any hope using the partition button the hard disk setup utility dare just try and see what happens then maybe can divide the wealth among the family members bit more securly the getting more information section the manual suggested trying other avenues before calling apple but didn mention the net mike feldman motorola computer group fax east university avenue pager urbana mcdphx uiucuxc udc feldman feldman urbana mcd mot com the partition button apple setup lets you set and other types partitions won let you create more than one normal mac volume you need silverlining something similar that will however allow you take advantage some possible unused space your hard disk you don mind reformatting the whole thing chris ellens ellens bnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa internal modem article lsrk innr news bbn com ado quince bbn com buz owen writes hear that the performa really lciii with internal modem can the modem part obtained and installed lciii would nice were actually powerbook internal modem but that might too much hope for believe you were misinformed checked out one the sears last week the modem external bps data with send only fax
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can get more than monitor try maxapplezoom shareware init your monitor not driven internal video chen
comp.sys.mac.hardware	memory upgrade jeffe eniac seas upenn edu george writes does the use different memory than the newer models looking buy upgrade need know which other powerbooks use the same card think all powerbooks use the same meg upgrade but the meg and meg upgrades are different for the than for the other pbs eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ram upgrade will slow douce tfsquad org andrew geweke writes cannot speak for dale but quite sure that the macintosh uses the full bit bit data path its full advantage that running fast with two four pin simms would with one pin simm now may that longword accesses assuming bit data path here get the first byte from the first simm the second byte from the second and this would mean that each longword memory actually split among four simms one for each byte the other hand could that the simms are interleaved word longword not just byte they could successive memory and the memory controller deals with the eight bit data path that each one has suspect though that they are interleaved some extent that bits can read written once this would indicate byte level interleave not confusing this with the new machines longword interleave with two pin simms the same sort although that seems the same sort idea there you get essential bit data path excuse ram instead just bit one yes the cpu can handle but when writing successive addresses speeds something dale right pin simms are interleaved bytes allowing the full data bus common with usenet and particular clueless everyone else what conclusion can drawn from this trying figure out what kind memory configuration for the iii bit datapath would fastest any ideas thanks jason macdonald jason scott macdonald jsm cornell edu jsm crux cit cornell edu technology sufficiently advanced indistinguishable from magic cats exist that arthur clarke may caress the lion
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii cache card anyone seen any press releases heard any rumors cache card for the lciii now that has the full data bus width the pds slot maurice internet lriggins afit mil
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help need modem info for duo what alternatives the express modem duo owners have they want least baud every place town says they are back ordered and part the reason want laptop mac can use remote terminal from wherever but really would hate have wait months get modem have settle with baud thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how long ram simm last article apr ultb isc rit edu jek ultb isc rit edu king wrote doesn simm have about moving flip flops they don move anybody much bigger than electron noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems article hvinnseq shelley washington edu tzs stein washington edu tim smith wrote attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results silent corruption data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although will not name the devices since not their fault that fine but would you name the industy experts can try track this down this doesn sound right don quadras use the the mac has nothing with the scsi timing that all handled the chip yup that why kinda curious most scsi problems encountered are due cabling noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iii nubus capable article qkkq nigel msen com mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller wrote friend recently purchased iii and wants know there such demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot compusa and computercity supercenter says they don carry them does this mean iii incapable carrying nubus board apple doesn make such card though suppose third party could one big problem that there isn room for standard nubus card inside the iii noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what put centris internal bay article jfnp fcx world std com jbailey world std com jim bailey wrote hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes tzs stein washington edu tim smith writes jbailey world std com jim bailey writes yes you get internal mixing the analog audio outputs with the mac generated audio the mac motherboard also you can sample the audio using the sound control panel clicking the options button next the microphone icon how you click the options button never seen undimmed the latest word this you have disconnect the microphone cable the motherboard then the button supposed dim the audio will simply select the audio when the microphone removed don believe the button dims since there nothing select haven tracked down centris check this though sorry assumed that the the various new machines with the internal rom bay worked the same the quadra obviously they don yup made the same mistake several months ago when this issue came before noah noah apple com macintosh hardware design sun decwrl apple noah not the opinions apple computer inc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for given clock speed how rank the following from while you where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill the below mhz mhz thanks very much appreciate hearing any further explanations from any experienced folks out there too folks have been having trouble replying lately with the reply command try typing address hand and should work thanks dave kitabjian kit ahb jyin vital statistics east garden way favorite guitarist phil keaggy dayton favorite computer macintosh spaghetti preference semi broken tredysvr ubbpc dhk installation pref over the top gvls vfl paramax com favorite book bible favorite rush limbaugh commercial taxula part iii favorite contradiction pro child pro choice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	deskwriter opinions feedback like lot worth the additional expense the only problem found with word you have table the longer than page and the cells have visible border the last bottom page line the first page will missing makes difference how the table formatted the worst that doesn show word page view page preview arie arie covrigaru university michigan lab phone room advanced technology bldg internet arie eecs umich edu beal ave ann arbor
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how long ram simm last article noah noah apple com noah apple com noah price writes article apr ultb isc rit edu jek ultb isc rit edu king wrote doesn simm have about moving flip flops they don move anybody much bigger than electron dynamic ram not based flip flops there basically single transistor and capacitor store each bit static ram based flip flops and much more expensive and much less dense and neither has any parts that move electrons and thermal expansion are ignored noah chris chris wood bellcore ccw ctt bellcore com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	floptical question article bmyers slip ots utexas edu billy lee myers bmyers ccwf utexas edu writes floptical course different technology and doesn enjoy the long term data storage opticals and the last time looked floptical disk weren all that cheap per floptical disk per megabyte per sysquest per megabyte don know how many times posted this the net one ever listens once and for all floptical media only megabyte you don know where buy bying flopticals per disks see that meagabyte not not buying bulk not getting special deal meg good book approching floppy price any questions source can sent ctr cwru edu chris chris roberts here again ctr cwru edu ctr pyrite som cwru edu roberts snowhite eeap cwru edu roberts alpha ces cwru edu well least you know where find now logged terminal checking mail
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale absolutely never used have new mhz motorola that willing sell get good enough offer still its static free sealed package don get good enough offer will use replace any takers supposedly you can get one these for however the moment the demand higher than the supply think good round number will pay shipping course all offers should send lewallen cis ohio state edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	updated keyboard question for the plus have old mac plus couple years ago bought shiney new came with apple new keyboard with abd ports replaced with mac pro plus extended keyboard which thoroughly enjoy thank you very much well have this extra keyboard which would like use the plus but there little problem the plus uses jack for keyboard input and the new keyboards don got extra adb cable from local apple dealer they such nice people but they couldn tell the order the wires there are four wires the adb cables black white red tan know one ground one gets the serial signal one supplies volts and forgot what the fourth one does anyway you hook them wrong you fry board and really don want that any brave souls out there have done this before please mail your experience directly would greatly appreciate especially since apple original keyboard not ergonomically correct btw did take apart new keyboard see could find the correlation between the wires for the jack and the adb since has both but such luck the connections are soldered inside little boxes well one more thing case you are thinking that the abd ports the newer models are different from the connection used the plus you right however you can use the telephone cable from the plus and connect the mac pro plus keyboard via its own jack other words this little engineering feat wish possible merely matter finding out the correct order omt when get this work definitely will post the solution others can too thanx for the input tis the blink eye tis the draught breath from the blossoms health the paleness death from the gilded saloon the briar the shroud why should the spirit mortal proud william knox shagberg cmp ilstu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock upgrades too have been watching the iisi speedup reports and plan upgrade the next few weeks the plan have build small board with few different crystals and able switch between the different speeds using front pannel switch this way can get the speed when want but can also run slower stock speeds experience any compatability problems with any applications don expect able switch clock speeds with the system running but can switch without any lock problems then could switch mhz when needed and put back idle mhz when not needeed this would further reduce the wear and tear the cpu even with heat sink course would not want run the different clock signals through the switch but use chip two the board select the frequency desired and route directly the mother board haven started probing around inside yet does anyone know the voltage level power the crystal oscilators thanks tom dickens boeing computer services tpd yak boeing com these statements are mine and not boeing
comp.sys.mac.hardware	which fax modem the best well using the home office bought for arounde does don know for data fax but the feature use the voic mail box which really have liked captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelaratores the accelaratores make lot difference understand there graphics and cpu accelaration does graphics accelarator help out with the scanner and the photo shop combination both practical have mac iici what kinds accelaratores can use captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	photo shop scanner have macc iici and color scanner scanned picture dpi when try print color printer after minutes making noise the mac hangs would need reboot what does this mean need buy more memory have now also have about disk free and the scanned picture about captain zod zod ncube com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac plus constantly rebooting side note has anyone ever had mac plus smoke out them have had four machines that all sudden start emitting thick grayish white smoke each case was capacitor that had gone bad has anyone else encountered this keith cooley macintosh lab administrator louisiana tech university tkc engr latech edu had happen time two beginning students think pretty entertaining when happens during lab lecture demonstration
comp.sys.mac.hardware	request info floptical drives considering adding floptical drive current system what would like know which floptical drives are recommended for their quality and performance preference would floptical drives capable handling both and floppies but handling floppies not necessity far only know bit about the iomega floptical and the infinity floptical drives are there any comments recommendations for either these are there any other floptical drives that are worth looking into and where can they purchased which mail order places etc thanks advance please send replies directly umsoroko ccu umanitoba mike sorokowski umsoroko ccu umanitoba
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale teleport adb bps modem send fax selling global village teleport bps modem send fax connects the mac through the adb port the software for sending faxes included asking however will consider other reasonable offers please mail dave dave peak internet dppeak matt ksu ksu edu aol skibum
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for sale simms have two meg simms that trying sell had them would like get for each one they are only three months old and have lifetime warrenty they are simms will also consider other reasonable offers please mail dave internet dppeak matt ksu ksu edu aol skibum
comp.sys.mac.hardware	put syquest centris remember reading thread few days ago that mentioned removing external syquest drive from its case and dropping the internal drive centris was going that with but had couple questions pli syquest drive has wire from the drive switch the outside the case where connect this switch can the computer just tell with internal drives noticed that the drive will lay over part the motherboard didn look closely but seem recall laying over the ram that soldered onto the motherboard would that cause problems one last question there anywhere order faceplate cover the drive front panel smaller than the space left the case the drive panel the same size the spotsbm clone cases should just cut hole the plastic panel that currently holding tmpty place ans are welcomed thanks keith moffatt kmoffatt vax cstp umkc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iici upgrade article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu dudek daeron mcrcim mcgill edu gregory dudek wrote article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes while ago posted note asking for specs the quadra and opinions the upgrade iici accelerator card far responsed that noticed please let know what you think these possible upgrade paths cost efficiency pros cons etc thanks complete are best obtained from your dealer some recent copy macworld macuser foggy memory suggests that the most relevant comparison factors vis vis iici are follows mhz mhz data path don recall this for sure but slower than style machines for sure ethertalk card board audio out ram motherboard simm slots nubus slots more flexible build video than the uses vram comparison iici with accelerator won give you audio ethernet the same video options with accelerator cpu performance can comparable but think ends costing more greg dudek actually accelerator such the daystar mhz cheaper than upgrading mhz the accelerator costs about whereas the upgrade costs just quoted from dealer however the upgrade gives you very fast built video that supports monitors with bit depth and bit depth with additional vram also has scsi port capable much faster throughput than the which makes big difference you have fast hard drive the improved video and scsi features are important you you better off getting the upgrade otherwise save some money and get accelerator paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadras vram question there have question regarding quadras vram have tried find info this but could not get precise answers one hand have quadra with monitor which capable bit color how much vram does have the other hand have quadra with monitor which capable bit color only must have vram would like take vram simms for the and put them the that both machines have bit color capability possible and yes how many vram simms should take from the from the documentation have the quadra must get vram have bit color that correct bonus question where vram simms hide from the documentation they seem behind the power supply really have take off the power supply access the vram simms thanks for your help daniel salber user interface research team lgi imag grenoble france salber imag
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor for lciii folks planning buy lciii but need advice choosing monitor what people recommend for decent monitor looked some ads and the spec for nec fge and the price within budget but could lciii able use the various resolutions available specifically the resolution does lciii only support one resolution also any recommendations for reliable mail order place for lciii monitors does anyone have experience with the following mail order places syex express houston usa flex bloomingdale thanks jeff jeff lian lian mti sgi com lian mips com mips technologies inc shoreline boulevard box
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fax modem for the mac all thanks you all who have responded request for info various kinds fax modem like ask few more questions what are the advantages buying global village teleport gold over other cheaper brands like supra zoom etc heard that both supra and zoom use the same software why are there many complaints about the incompatibility problems supra what kind incompatibility decided buy the teleport gold there any possibility add voice option the near future has anyone heard possible voice option that supra will offer this coming summer person did mention new modem getting good reviews from various mac magazines want the best fastest most economically sound and possible voice option what fax modem should buy sorry for posting many questions but think they necessary promise repost any answers they not already posted responder thanks much advance regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macs suck buy this test erme
comp.sys.mac.hardware	acc graphics card are there any graphics cards for the that also have say accelerator there seem plenty accelerator graphics cards for the but none that seen for the thanks matt madsen mmadsen ics uci edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adb mouse ergo when when apple supposed start bundlign the new ergonomic adb mouse with all cpus sold jas jeffrey sullivan research scientist jas isi edu internet information sciences institute compuserve university southern california
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help scsi woes mac iifx having trouble with scsi mac iifx the machine years old and have been using the same hard drive internal maxtor lxt for two and half years the disk recently crashed reformatted silverlining but during the reformat received random write errors during testing the error message reported was like sector write error detected after testing good sector not mapped out this occurred randomly all over the hard disk which makes suspect the diagnostic reference sector the third reformat and after reinstalling the scsi read write loops was able get through passes and with errors pass for some reason reported lot errors but still mapped out sectors decided ahead and try resinstall system and reload data from backup this proceded normally however now have sub optimal performance symptoms include frequent crashes instances extremely sluggish disk access requiring reboot correct instances not finding the disk the scsi chain reboot boot from norton utl after this occurs cannot find the disk either the only thing that fixes this recycling the power sometimes requires several attempts questions has anyone had this type problem before the problem with the motherboard and its non standard scsi implementation with maxtor disk there some diagnostic software that would help make this determination termination problem currently have external syquest and external dataframe the chain the the end and has internal termination not using the iifx terminator have the scsi filter installed the internal drive have run with this exact steup for years with one previous disk crash requiring reformat about year ago also have symptoms disconnect the external devices don see how scsi termination would now issue course who knows help would much appreciated forrest lumpkin iii nasa ames research center lumpkin corvus arc nasa gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	dsp other cards for fft anyone article qjnpi bsj uni karlsruhe uni karlsruhe thomas koenig wrote are doing heavy duty image processing with some seriously underpowered mac mac iisi for example most the cpu time burned doing fft what cards are out there which would allow take away that part the load from the cpu any dsp cards out there for example they have callable from think pascal replace the one and two dimensional fft routines already existing program check out the national instruments dsp this uses the texas instruments tms chip which true bit floating point dsp pricey however
comp.sys.mac.hardware	high resolution adc for mac article qidk innhk iskut ucs ubc rob douglas douglas ecc ubc wrote article qhfmg hoh lll winken llnl gov charles cunningham cec imager writes would like buy bit adc card for the mac with digitization rate least khz preferably khz would prefer one with good differential and integral linearity and dma would plus other than national instruments you know any other vendor who sells such card instrutech corp has nice looking bit and board that can run the speeds you want the itc doesn have dma but does have good sized fifo that can buffer your samples instrutech can reached fax don know about the instrutech boards though plan check them out but you need very careful checking the monotonicity and ratio many the bit boards out there the boards are very clearly specified terms monotonicity ratio accuracy etc and the and have all the dyynamic range and freedom from distortion that you expect from good true bit converter this not true for the spectral innovations boards for example
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iivx upgrade question you get teh iivx upgrade does include new sticker cover the iivx identifier with centris indetifier jas jeffrey sullivan research scientist jas isi edu internet information sciences institute compuserve university southern california
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds nubus was iii nubus capable article kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes friend recently purchased iii and wants know there such demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the family macs can only use pds cards they are not able use nubus but why can some technically hip macslinger tell what the difference between pds and nubus impossible make gadget that plugs into pds and ends nubus card cage least marvin friend has not been able locate one and neither have what the fundamental reason for this zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins
comp.sys.mac.hardware	power supplies for mac thnik able pick piar mac for nothing but their power supplies are dead anyone know where can pick pair refurbished for cheap preferably mail order yes have uses planned fior them one will sold friend who just needs terminal connect via modem his mail account the other will used net client run downloads and printing also what the latest system software usable with these suckers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help duo problems chess cats ucsc edu brian vantuyl chess writes just got duo and having some difficulties the machine plugged the wall adapter put sleep unplugged from the wall and woken crashes the time there nothing but the original system software the machine the battery has plenty life think this must power manager problem but don know what about also the speaker occasionally makes high pitched hiss the noise irregular but seems favor sleep and restart commands had duo for few weeks now and suffer from both the above problems reinstalled system software twice effort combat the problems thinking they were system software problems initially reinstalling the system seemed help but not anymore occasionally when try wake the duo get solid screen horizontal lines the screen freezes also get the high pitched hiss occasionally but only startup called the apple hotline sos appl three times already and finally they agreed something astray after duo screen would dim and the hard drive spun down itselft and put itself sleep this problem only occured twice apple sent box ship duo looked new york but the problem now intermittent and can afford without duo this time anyone out there with these same problems brian cherkas bcherkas netcom com aol brianc compuserve netcom online communication services san jose
comp.sys.mac.hardware	lciii problems article qmgjk menudo edu sunnyt coding bchs edu writes its not good idea have horizontally formatted hard disk vertical position the drive formatted horizontal position can not completely compensate for the gravitational pull vertical position not saying that your hard disk will fail tomorrow months from now but why take that chance you want more detailed info the problem please think the other replies sum the fact that you can place hard drive its side the point this will only sure work the new drives namely lps drives that have smaller platter and are also more stable why should take the chance because been running maxtor lps both its side and flat for about year and had problems with period like always say never trust the manufacturer just like everything else life the right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video cable options there was discussion couple weeks ago about using different cables achieve different resolutions the quadra and centris series company that sold the cables was mentioned can someone please mail the companies name address etc and any other info that may relevant just like everything else life the right lane ends half mile ravi konchigeri mongoose leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug this test
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc ruminations was lciii powerpc article pyramid pyramid com andrem pyrtech mis pyramid com andre molyneux writes article qksuq hal gnu mit edu mirsky hal gnu mit edu david joshua mirsky writes own lciii and recently heard interesting rumor heard that the lciii has built slot for powerpc chip this true heard that the slot not the same the pds slot that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu mit edu well also have iii popping the top revealed one socket for additional vram simm one socket for pin ram simm one socket for flat pack fpu processor direct slot pds identical the but with additional set connetions one side for the full bit data path that the lacked that guess board with powerpc chip could made that would fit the pds but that the only place will possible have nubus pds powerpc upgrade will require logic board swap would interesting for apple come out with nubus powerpc that allowed use the cpu like rocketshare but guess that getting bit fantastic was wondering since macweek reported that developers were seeded with powerpcs nubus card also any word machine arrivals estimated speed last heard the estimates were around times the speed quadra native risc mode heard apple employee mumble something about the arrival powerpc machines much earlier date that but doubt true finally the powerpc developer mini course available saw advertised the developer university calendar and like know all interesting sean seanmcd dal
comp.sys.mac.hardware	don repair that sticky mouse button call apple posted comp sys mac hardware and misc consumers you heard about apple great new customer support program well think again sometimes the only real support out there what apple computer users can give each other for another example read the march issue macweek ric ford described two year effort liam breck document and bring apple attention problem with certain defective mice random the switches these mice stick the down position until clicked second time apparently regardless the machine they are used with the system software involved most the reported problem mice were manufactured malaysia and have fcc bcga you recognize this sticky button symptom immediately you have such mouse the problem intermittent but not subtle liam breck recently gave trying document this problem and instead suggested that people contact apple customer assistance center directly macweek when called apple march and described defective mouse was eventually given case number and told apple would replace this mouse even though few months out warranty after waiting for three weeks called back today wondering where new mouse was this time was told that apple had decided the serial number mouse not within the undisclosed range apple willing replace and there nothing can about nothing that unless enough people complain about this problem make worth apple while fix replace the entire lot defective mice please you have one these mice need your help don assume you know what causes the problem there are lots theories and start hacking around inside your hundred dollar mouse instead let apple please take five minutes call apple right now united states canada and europe australia japan and pacific the number isn toll free call collect describe the problem and ask for replacement mouse even they refuse insist that they register the details your case including your mouse serial number firm network managers and user group leaders especially please query your user bases everyone ask your friends and colleagues please don send mail post yet another sticky button report call apple directly enough victims take the trouble report this well known problem apple will eventually forced respond apple continues find easy stone wall this issue don expect them offer support when the next potentially more serious mac defect uncovered bill sloan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help wanted monitor problems nec iivi hello all for few past days been fighting get nec multisync predecessor work properly with the internal video mac iivi with vga adapter described dale adams posting about quadra video works only some minor interferences occur small enough not prevent any action screen visible clear but because the scanrates stuff are well enough for emulating apple rgb first made adapter then got one fron the local distributor nec with both adapters can get picure which looks excellent most the time every now and then but with radical changes screen opening palettes large windows etc there are major interferences sync the picture either tilts sideways scrables totally even when clear there are some spiky interferences horizontal line alignment when accessing pull downs etc with the self made adapter almost identical the vga one only sense pins differ sometimes impossible even boot with picture clear enough shut down from menu with the adapter from nec everything well most the time but sometimes the picture tilts badly sideways the sync completely lost but not nearly often with the self made one know with self made adapters there can always interference but with the one provided nec where the source this interference give you the pinouts the whole mess and hope that you can least someone please try figure out what could the best pin assignment for nec going make completely new cable with maximum shieldings and isolations soon someone figures out how the pins should arranged especially syncs and groundings yes have checked that the monitor not defective works perfectly well with all graphic adapters pixels and also atari monochrome which using now with here are the pinouts stuff pin mini sub nec pin sub mac least quadra red video red gnd green video red video blue video composite sync gnd sense gnd green video red gnd green gnd green gnd sense blue gnd blue video gnd sense gnd sync sync gnd sync sync blue gnd sync sync gnd sync shell gnd shell gnd connection suggested apple for vga svga sense pins changed emulate apple with multisync self made adapter multisync pin mini sub mac pin sub sense grounded sync gnd connection measured from adapter make nec emulate apple adapter provided nec representative nec mini mac shell gnd same above same same same same same not connected well waiting for your solutions and thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	another res question asked question week ago about getting more res monitor have magnavox magnascan and wondering what video cards supports also does anybody have magnavox email there one maybe phone number please reply email don read much news thanks steve steven seeger dark netcom com string going blow out the sky then why don you hang your flabby behind out the window and blow him out the sky string dom airwolf
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding int hard disk drive iicx yes possible add second hard drive mac iicx internally this definitely not recommended procedure apple but have done the equivalent after upgrading quadra the power supply still the stock and was able power two quantum lps drives pli scsi accelerator micron technologies bit video board daystar quickcache new technologies overdrive and meg ram simultaneously added new mount for the drive attaching angle brackets the drive tower the internal scsi cable was changed longer flat ribbon cable onto which added extra connector about midway the final was internally terminated and the drive between the motherboard and final had its terminator resistor packs removed cooling has not been problem and scsi problems occur with either the pli scsi chain motherboard scsi hooked into the two internal hard drives works very well for but proceed cautiously you wish the same
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi clock upgrades have read one report brave soul who rewired the mhz clock and higher speed clock oscillator outputs through double throw switch allow different speeds there was mention any attempts switch speeds the fly but the uses timing loops anything like quadra for accessing its floppy drive dynamic switching will wreak havoc quadra must reboot after having its clock speed significantly changed will unable properly access its floppy drive
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sectors track iso ansi standard magneto optical disc how many sectors are there per track disc revolution and how many tracks per disc thanks jim frazier compuserve com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help with simm configuration can someone please help understand the current situation regarding simms have iisi which will probably keep for another years would like add more memory from know that will need faster simms which simms pin pin would the simms get today usable years with newer more powerful system any insight would appreciated thanks rob rob sprecher rcs cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recommendations for removable storage media wanted article apr kth jwa eufrat nada kth jon wtte writes you have friends buy optical huh buy optical might lose friends why they smell bad and stop worrying about cartridge wear bernoulli crashes syquest serious note have heard the tales about syquest failures but curious about jon comments cartridge wear for the the bernoullis can someone elaborate there general consensus that the opticals are the most reliable mostly concerned about media failures opposed drive mechanism failures julian vrieslander neurobiology behavior mudd hall cornell university ithaca internet eacj theory cornell edu bitnet eacj crnlthry uucp cornell batcomputer eacj
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem having also when the computer set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through window horizontal white lines appear the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate the operation continued window moved over the involved area the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area the screen this problem not observed the monitor configured for colors inch apple monitor with colors used suspect bad video ram chip but cannot certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse having exactly the same problem again fine when switch colors smaller monitor configuration model centris with vram cards monitor mag with monitor adaptor for resolution just discovered the problem little while ago after plugging new mag monitor seems appear either when scrolling through window when using alpha word and enter return guess bad vrams well really hope isn design flaw anyone apple listening pushpinder singh push media mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo crashes aftersleep looks like apple bug you have memory card installed that not one apple this may the problem for couple months after the release the duo some memory manufacturers were shipping duo memory cards improper non self refreshing chips you have third party card pull and see the sleep problem recurs tim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple monitor this must faq from the very first days the rgb and for better monitor for your well the nec fgx are pretty nice
comp.sys.mac.hardware	looking for free share wares young tokyo young shio hong writes looking for ftp sites where there are freewares sharewares for mac will help lot there are driver source codes those ftp sites any information appreciated reference newsgroups comp sys mac apps comp sys mac misc comp sys mac system comp sys mac wanted comp sys mac hardware comp answers news answers subject introductory macintosh frequently asked questions faq sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	for the poor owner iisi macintosh iisi clock upgraded iisi works well mhz however does not work with nubus adaptor and disk even though can read write disk mhz interestingly upgraded iisi overcomes basically the fighting between the vedio and the system that cpu never reduced below mater whether the cache off this pretty useful when you use the virtual memory system mhz mhz mhz cpu graf disk math fpu speedometer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	performa bundle here what went staples framingham today and grabbed the info sheet the bundle for mere you get megahertz microprocessor ram hard disk floppy disk drive built support for colors expandable colors expansion slot keyboard and mouse display dot pitch for extra sharp text and graphics pixels microphone and speaker macintosh system software for performa computers version ease macintosh exchange and quicktime software global village teleport fax modem send fax only service and support year limited warranty year home service toll free help line support pre installed software wordperfect works best clickart collection touchbase datebook bestbooks the amereican heritage dictionary correct grammar apple special edition american online with free trial membership checkfree electronic bill payment software spectre challenger scrabble editor note the spec sheet have list the microprocessor but corrected that didn want confuse anybody tim
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems noah apple com noah price writes article hvinnseq shelley washington edu tzs stein washington edu tim smith wrote attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results silent corruption data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although will not name the devices since not their fault that fine but would you name the industy experts can try track this down who knows just quoted what was written scsi director this doesn sound right don quadras use the the mac has nothing with the scsi timing that all handled the chip yup that why kinda curious most scsi problems encountered are due cabling tried calling transoft corp about this and have either gotten the response huh yep nah you would expect that damaging state ment like this would have some data back anyone want transoft phone number jim jagielski and gonna stiff say jim jagubox gsfc nasa gov hey lama how about something nasa gsfc code you know for the effort greenbelt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help how test simms hello just got some simms least one which does not work don know there software that can test simms thoroughly could just rely the ram test performed computer during the start when installed dead simm into there would strange music and display the screen why need your help thanks advance yih tyng ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help need modem info for duo jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu writes what alternatives the express modem duo owners have they want least baud every place town says they are back ordered and part the reason want laptop mac can use remote terminal from wherever but really would hate have wait months get modem have settle with baud you not going like this but memory serves postings read this newsgroup and elsewhere indicate that there are repeat internal modems for the duo besides the express modem any speed something having with the modem using the main cpu for some its tasks and apple not releasing details the architecture something vague the details but the gist was that there are going third party internal duo modems wrong somebody please correct this sorry the bearer bad news joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu myself have never been able find out what feminism only know that called feminist whenever express sentiments that differentiate from doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	questions about the centris ram according the seen several times postings from dale adams apple computer both the and the require simms not only the centris requires simms pete think you meant quadra but centris probably would real nice machine but yeah needs not joel joel siegel jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu jdsiegel ocf berkeley edu myself have never been able find out what feminism only know that called feminist whenever express sentiments that differentiate from doormat rebecca west
comp.sys.mac.hardware	great deal for those you who have laser printers you want envelope feeder they are now sale direct from for the unbelievable price call same for extra paper trays they have too many gray ones and want move them out strange but true the bobmeister from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pricing what the value hdfd david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony rasterops for sale update hello fellow humans and other net creatures you all interested this merchandise please mail djk ccwf utexas edu compacting system and moving single monitor system have two monitors and cards for sale nothing all wrong with these pieces just wanting conserve desk space and get all info from one screen prefer sell people near austin and surrounding areas within driving distance like hour away perhaps but can ship you you don live near here only problem that didn keep the original boxes for the monitors but confident that few months full time service the shipping room will enable safely package the monitors and flip your direction details mirror full page display monochrome nubus card sold sony color monitor what say got top ratings last year macuser report sony trinitron arguably the best but rather not argue that point great monitor great shape but going bigger screen and although like keep finances don justify still selling for macland where bought originally not including shipping will sell for plus shipping again make offer that sounds unreasonable rasterops bit accelerated hardware zoom pan meg ram renamed the few months after bought this board for monitors providing accelerated bit hardware zoom pan ntsc mode you can plug into something like the rasterops video expander and output ntsc and ram slots that use meg meg simms for gworld ram ram disk software included for such functions meg ram included meg simms selling for bottom line without the ram add asking shipping included this time just card original box and packaging actually prefer sell the sony monitor and this card together you want both drop mail and make bundled offer for these items cheers dan keldsen djk ccwf utexas edu dan keldsen are you now have you ever been djk ccwf utexas edu berklee college student univ texas austin member fan billy death music composition max programmer consultant ask think midi programmer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trade mac system for color mac want get color mac don care mac what but want color machine prefer trade present mac system plus some cash other equipment for the color system right now not full the buy color system outright here what mac system has mac with internal drive meg external external drive imagewriter with color ribbon stuff that can with got modems and willing give the and the with the system multitech multimodem data fax robotics sportster data microcom normally will connect only highest but will faster connected another microcom the usr and the multitech are both brand new interested send mail dleonard wixer bga com primary judy stamps misc topical stamps from dogs dleonard wixer bga com cats baseball and many many other subjects secondary for stamp information call tony leonard dleonard wixer cactus org this business only number
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why printers rated low egaillou etu gel ulaval eric gailloux writes about purchase laser printer for mac and read the macuser buying guide special issue all printers except iiisi are rated very low compared other noname bargain priced printers why that the printers are the standard amongst printer manufacturers personnal favorite budgetwise would the iiip the iiip has just been superseded the which the one using work the quality the print execellent beating dpi printers hands down australia the price the about comparable with that the iii series are trying get people buy the new one anthony pun anthonyp extro ucc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator for article apr ifi uio oec ifi uio ystein christiansen says has anyone out there netland any experience with accelerators for specially interested speed rate compared need for new simms speed maximum ram after upgrade compatibility mainly using framemaker can use additional big screen can install the accellerator myself soldering price where buy have experience with this particular hardware but just about every month macworld there add for combined accelerator video board this item sells for about and comes with mhz pair eight simm slots and grayscale monitor this accelerator plugs into the lone expansion port and thus soldering you will however need long torx wrench get the case open but that not really big deal does that sound like what you were looking for jon jon carr maine maine edu umaine ncaa champions how about those black bears blue
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin map for pin din cable facing female plug end anyone recognize this little layout eight pin female plug connector used for many mac peripherals problem problem problem printer cheap cables using this configuration switch couple pins between one end and the other want use cheap cables for box anyone know which pins get reversed can some creative editing the internals box any help would greatly appreciated jon jon carr maine maine edu umaine ncaa champions how about those black bears blue
comp.sys.mac.hardware	clock reports continuing collect user results produce more comprehensive report iisi clock oscillator upgrades you have attempted the modification please drop note with details your experience the more reports obtained the more accurate the numbers will generate possible please include the following top speed achieved system configuration top mhz setting speed rating the cpu the last two digits printed cpu presence additional heat sinks nubus fpu cards used floppy drive functionality both and disks damage incurred during modification damage due higher speed use average length time the cpu hours day unusual other modifications the usual procedure guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adb mouse ergo when jas apr tigger isi edu jas isi edu jeff sullivan writes when apple supposed start bundlign the new ergonomic adb mouse with all cpus sold far know they did new mac came with one yesterday and got ergonomic keyboard order for three months the other day too cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe clear disc you can seek forever
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo parking heads when iddle the duo powerbooks seem park the heads after few seconds inactivity that builtin into the drive logic being programmed via software any way tune the iddle timeout that makes the heads park themselves think the heads are being parked since after few seconds inactivity you can hear the clunk heads parking denis
comp.sys.mac.hardware	snooper any opinions has anyone use snooper macekg any other similar diagnostic software any comparisons reviews these products would very much appreciated thanks advance for your help cheers sir office acme gen thankfull that dont get all the government pay for
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help scsi woes mac iifx according the official documentation failure use the iifx terminator can not only affect scsi bus performance but can also damage the bus whether this your problem not don know have had sporadic scsi problems with iifx since bought cannot connect more than three devices fourth one causes major problems first thing try reformat your drive someone elses system you continue get errors probably the drive formats fine then would try format your system with externals this fails then the scsi controller your iifx needs repair replacement hope this helps david salmon salmon unomaha edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what the difference between mac portable and powerbook been looking into getting portable mac some work and had eye the lately been seeing people with the old portables and they selling for less that the what want know what are the differences between them all know that the portable heavier but the doesn have internal drive here what need know does the portable support appletalk network connections what the cpu inside portable does the portable support system what the maximum memory capacity the portable can you still get ram meaning does use special simms what kind internal does use does the portable have better screen thanx advance mike gaines what your name captain jean luc picard what your quest seek the holy grail what the top velocity bird prey romulan klingon don know aaahhhh meg hertz njit edu graphix aol com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds nubus was iii nubus capable bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote article kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes friend recently purchased iii and wants know there such demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the family macs can only use pds cards they are not able use nubus but why can some technically hip macslinger tell what the difference between pds and nubus impossible make gadget that plugs into pds and ends nubus card cage least marvin friend has not been able locate one and neither have what the fundamental reason for this think that there exist nubus expansion cages sure seen them advertised occassionally but think that the main problem that they cost much more than the difference price between say and iivx unless you need lots nubus slots its not worth the bother course may that these extra boxes are expensive because one buys them because they are expensive nubus technology isn special apple proprietry thing have this sneaky feeling that licensed from texas instruments there problem building expansion box the difference between nubus and pds that nubus clever interface with lots neat toys built make sure that lots cards can work together the same computer pds processor direct slot just that here are all the connections the processor you can anything with this and quick can but there cooperation you may able get double pds slot adaptors but you try plugging video cards and just watch them conflict course the extra electronics nubus slot makes appreciably more expensive guess why apple doesn put cheaper machines yah pays yer money and yah takes yah choice bill wis liverpool
comp.sys.mac.hardware	put syquest centris just installed tape backup lot the issues are the same answer your questions article apr cstp umkc edu kmoffatt cstp umkc edu writes pli syquest drive has wire from the drive switch the outside the case where connect this switch can the computer just tell with internal drives you probably want hard wire the scsi with shorting jumpers put convenient number like you could cut hole the back the machine route the switch but why through the hassle you probably won needing frequently change the your internal drive noticed that the drive will lay over part the motherboard didn look closely but seem recall laying over the ram that soldered onto the motherboard would that cause problems yeah when first installed the tape drive was little concerned too but problem the device designed fit just fine with the overhang shouldn reach back beyond the rom ram vram simms though one last question there anywhere order faceplate cover the drive front panel smaller than the space left the case the drive panel the same size the spotsbm clone cases should just cut hole the plastic panel that currently holding tmpty place you can special order parts mount the device from your local apple dealer the relevant parts are blank bezel faceplate rom carrier generic device mounting bracket note apple unfortunate choice name for the slide bracket mount device the service techs talked said sure stock those course they were thinking the caddies hold disk when you stick the drive far can tell apple does not sell bezel faceplate already cut out for standard device why not they advertise these machines being able accept any standard device the bay why not provide the faceplate they sell cutout for their rom drive course but that use going hack the extra bezel ordered make cutout for tape drive which standard device good luck with your syquest fred
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help need modem info for duo jdsiegel garnet berkeley edu joel siegel writes jmilhoan magnus acs ohio state edu writes what alternatives the express modem duo owners have they want least baud every place town says they are back ordered and part the reason want laptop mac can use remote terminal from wherever but really would hate have wait months get modem have settle with baud apple didn put out such good product gladly take business the bit ataris think the situation with the express modem inexusable for any business had mine order since january apple finally called last week tell that should have the second week may the meantime been stuck with duo without the connectability needed for sure there are plenty people who can bite back citing all sorts reasons why apple right least justified but just crabby consumer and when order duo with modem that the product expect well not like limited the computer biz remember when the miata came out what about those cabbage patch dolls well want toy kenneth simon dept sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
comp.sys.mac.hardware	bit system zone week ago posted about problem with have megs true ram yet set extensions use large amount memory total all extensions then system will crash before the finder comes what meant was having large amount fonts load sounds huge disk caches with control panel other than apple memory control panel apple cache mode and bit addressing all extensions work themselves with the others until increase the memory used some them with methods mentioned above well here latest followup ran nows system profile and got this information memory info physical ram size logical ram size size low memory area virtual memory inactive addressing mode bit mode use bit system zone absent parity ram not capable growable system heap true temporary memory support present tempory memory support real and tracked note that bit system zone absent could this the problem how can turn this any ideas can anyone help ken
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hongkong from kinau mondrian csufresno edu kin hung date apr gmt organization california state university fresno message zimmer csufresno edu newsgroups comp sys mac hardware hong kong you can buy cheap based computer however very experience buy macintosh last winter was back hong kong saw the price mac classic hong kong same price buy the not recommended buy mac hong kong since mac not popular kin hung hello have disagree regarding your assessment macintosh hong kong the mac has sizeable share the typesetting market the local magazine next magazine similar newsweek here uses the mac extensively have seen sir speedy and other franchises hong kong equipped with mac based systems true the discount not steep here because customers hong kong cannot buy from gray market nor are mac being sold thru mass merchandisers like apple does here with the performa lin this point the sale mac handled one exclusive distributor the other hand you can always get clone the earlier days illegal clones the apple iie your perception the mac not being too popular hong kong simply because most hobbyists and users find much cheaper one those basement stores that sell clones with probably illegal copies bios than pay for mac similarly you cannot say lotus surely not well accepted hong kong because the sale low may because all those places kowloon where illegal copies lotus can bought for and for professional looking but illegal copies the manuals eric choi internet eric choi fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	specs patrickd wpi wpi edu lazer writes appreciate greatly someone could mail the following you only know one that fine specs for the esp how compares the pentium specs for the can fill page book some highlights are bit address space bit data width bit integer registers bit floating point registers copyback capable caches way set associative typical clocks integer instruction clocks for floating point multiply interesting aside the can multiply two bit floating point numbers less time than can multiply two bit integers specs for the with estimated cost release date etc more the same but with multiple instruction dispatching figure about clocks per instruction typical guess but the motorola guys are pretty bright may less interested speeds systems can run windows risc whatever costs bus info register info all the technical info call motorola not typing all hoping that the can win yet another battle against the intel people predicting that both the and lines are reaching their ends new experimental processors have bit data pathways and can schedule out instructions each clock cycle that sort trick can really done with cisc architectures finally saw some details the pentium and was not greatly impressed they finally done some work the fpu get speed but otherwise only going speedup and get that they using two integer units larger caches and branch target buffer yes know they talking about mhz processors big whoop designing mhz board difficult and really expensive priced memory chips lately ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for given clock speed how rank the following from while you where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc fastest then pentium with the first versions the powerpc somewhere the vicinity and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill the below mhz mhz computer speed only partly dependent processor clock speed memory system speed play large role does video system speed and speed processor clock rates the speed the memory system becomes the greatest factor the overall system speed you have mhz processor can reading another word from memory every sure you can put all memory your computer but will cost times much the slower simms and roughly the twice fast given clock speed the ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds nubus was iii nubus capable article mqk liverpool wis liverpool sellers writes bill higgins beam jockey higgins fnalf fnal gov wrote article kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes friend recently purchased iii and wants know there such demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the family macs can only use pds cards they are not able use nubus but why can some technically hip macslinger tell what the difference between pds and nubus impossible make gadget that plugs into pds and ends nubus card cage least marvin friend has not been able locate one and neither have what the fundamental reason for this think that there exist nubus expansion cages sure seen them advertised occassionally but think that the main problem that they cost much more than the difference price between say and iivx unless you need lots nubus slots its not worth the bother course may that these extra boxes are expensive because one buys them because they are expensive nubus technology isn special apple proprietry thing have this sneaky feeling that licensed from texas instruments there problem building expansion box apple uses the ieee nubus standard for their bit backplane bus got this from technote that reada couple weeks ago other stuff deleted hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile won kill you snailnet wpi box institute worcester
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerators for the week backorder but they are shipping the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi power limitations readers own mac iisi and considering upgrades cards hard drive etc can you tell what the power limitations are for the pds slot and the hard drive power feed secondly can you tell there separate limit for each instead there single limit for both combined please drop line you know the answers these questions thanks felix lin feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	screen death mac plus have very old mac and mac plus both which have the same problem their screens blank out sometimes after minor physical jolt such inserting floppy the internal drive sometimes all themselves computer left itself just goes blank have replaced the wires connecting the logic boards and the video board because seemed first that jiggling the wires made the screen come back this worked for while but the blanking out has returned can anything need new power supply new crt new computer thanks for any advice ethan bodin tufts university ebodin pearl tufts edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help mail address caere corporation looking for the mail address the caere corporation their address caere corporation cooper court los gatos califonia you know the address have access find please could you send mail address zia castle thanking you advance zia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	reseting iig factory defaults have laserwriter iig that has disappeared completely from the network name doesn show any zone you can print from serial interface tho have seen some discussion here about changing the zone iig including some code that lets you change the zone there maybe some code you can use have back all its factory default settings have feeling that what needed heal ours jurgen botz jbotz mtholyoke edu vending machines should respond finger south hadley usa request with list all items currently unix dead long live unix available for purchase rfc
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mini docks available boss considering the purchase powerbook duo leaning towards because the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get duo could find mini dock with coprocessor have any third parties announced such beast alan deguzman genius never understood own time calculus mathematica disclaimer the university calvin hobbes from can afford opinions the indispensible calvin and hobbes
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iicx won turn anyone know what would cause iicx not turn when hit the keyboard switch the one the back the machine doesn work either the only way can turn unplug the machine for few minutes then plug back and hit the power switch the back immediately sometimes this doesn even work for long time remember hearing about this problem long time ago and that logic board failure was mentioned the source the problem this true thanks pilon pilon rpi edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading memory have one the original powerbook with ram and find that drag when trying work what the best way get the maximum ram for this unit and what going cost hoping can get the latest and best info from real users posting this group thanks advance bill
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help how test simms ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu yih tyng writes hello just got some simms least one which does not work don know there software that can test simms thoroughly could just rely the ram test performed computer during the start when installed dead simm into there would strange music and display the screen why need your help thanks advance yih tyng ytwu magnus acs ohio state edu there shareware ramchecker that think called ramcheck available most ftp sites such umich and sumex terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris math coprocessor option sorry this faq don normally read comp sys mac hardware purchasing couple centris configured the systems follows eight ram ethernet vram math coprocessor option purchasing agent told about the math coprocessor option and sent the apple summary documentation prove ordered the coprocessor option but really not sure that needed thought the chip had math coprocessor built into has apple had math coprocessor chip architectured keep with the speed the chip the centris concerned that may have set hardware bottleneck please send your responses david anthony guevara cup portal com will summarize there enough interest thanks david guevara internet david anthony guevara cup portal com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can put floppy ericr solbourne com eric robison writes got mac got spare floppy drive seen ith floppy drive can put floppy drive into and get ork how thanks eric eric robison disclaimer claim dis ericr solbourne com get offa this planet sure thing you have get fdhd upgrade kit from apple which includes floppy drive different chips the swim chip was mentioned another post and different floppy drive cable get the apple kit through your dealer jim trascapoulos jtrascap nyx edu what size you wear
comp.sys.mac.hardware	specs article rayc myqo netcom com ray netcom com ray fischer writes patrickd wpi wpi edu lazer writes appreciate greatly someone could mail the following you only know one that fine stuff deleted have you tried the library since you wpi and look the first floor professor has posted ieee believe spec sheet the which around pages long sure the library has the info you request just matter finding hope this helps bret chase internet bchase wpi wpi edu macintosh bellnet smile won kill you snailnet wpi box institute worcester
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iicx won turn changed the battery the thing shortly after the problem first happened and noticed inordinate number bus errors lately pilon pilon rpi edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	summary zyxel strings write recently got zyxel modem great but still having some problems figuring out what strings use what applications basically need strings for term firstclass client and telefinder client been able get firstclass and term working using another modem settings firstclass and copying them for term however still has problems term for example will list error the first time try dialing after starting the problem cancel and try again works fine telefinder even worse can get even wake the modem anyone uses zyxel for any these programs greatly appreciate you sending the setup strings you use thanks advance yoshio ucla edu writes for zterm initially did the following atz then set init string atz that rsmith pearl tufts edu rod smith writes can help you with firstclass telefinder but been using zterm and zyxel for close two weeks now here what did once zterm set hardware handshaking and the bps rate you probably already done this then typed the first line sets the modem ignore the dtr line necessary for hardware handshaking with most though not all mac hardware handshaking cables the second stores this setting non volatile memory the modem the default when the modem starts the modem preferences dialog have the modem initialization string set which just insures that the stored setting used useful starting zterm after using something like the fax software macwoof which change the settings other ways alternatively you could leave the factory default the way and just set the zterm initialization string which would accomplish the same thing the modem always before you start zterm and other programs don modify the settings would work even other programs modify the modem settings the way because sometimes forget turn the modem before launching zterm and this way assured having the correct dtr handling when the modem powered after comparing the above strings with commands reference guide came with atz this entered the initialize box the modem preferences zterm quick summary each commmand reset modem user profile speaker volume fairly quiet ring volume fairly quiet display connect info according setting see manual assume dtr computer always dial speed fast zyxel can handle firstclass used this same string with the addition right before the command the setup box this disables the auto answer function the modem for firstclass based modem setting the supra fax and just changed the above mentioned string telefinder based setting the zoom setting changed the modem initialization string the same one used for firstclass and everything seems work fine sorry took long get this summary out someone wants forward this the info mac reports directory sumex aim might save other newbie zyxel users like myself the trouble setting their strings and also save the net some redundant messages anyone else has something add feel free marcus mlobbia ucsd edu marcus lobbia mlobbia sdcc ucsd edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how often are simms bad mail order everyone just the other day ordered vram chip for new lciii from mac connection they sent overnight very nice and got installed and found that didn work properly when you put the computer thousands mode the bottom the screen using the new chip all flickering and fuzzy called them and going return for new one question how often does such thing happen with simm chips general you often find when ordering chips that large portion are bad this rarity this the first chip ordered have other experience this area just curious anyone else has had the same type experience that about please email and people want can post summary thanks all hillel sims simsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute rot rotated forward backward anonymous
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tcp routing localtalk ethernet here the story have network with macs localtalk one them has ethernet card and currently connected next don laugh got for the price mac iisi the next connected the internet over slip running baud modem currently can telnet from the mac ethernet the next and then telnet out again the rest the world what want know there some sort hardware that will route telnet sessions from the localtalk macs the next via the ethernet mac from what have heard air doesn the trick software solutions would good too but impression that there aren going any our immediate interest able get the next and telnet out again the slip connection doesn allow assign numbers machines everyone shares that number well thanks advance benjamin chuang itd css consultant university michigan benjamin chuang umich edu consulting referals here bchuang css itd umich edu unix and long messages here
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how boot from ext power have external hard drive wish use startup disk problem when switch the mac boots the internal but when restart warm boot the mac boots from the external how make boot directly from the external please email replies possible thanks advance jerry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm use nubus board anyone seen one hello remember running across the back mac user world few years ago for nubus board that had umpteen simm slots used recycle your old simms when you upgraded memory don remember who made this board and haven seen advertised any the latest mac magazines mentioned that included software make the simms the board act like ram disk someone who has simms can get rid use but hates the waste this sounds like majorly good idea does anyone out there know what board company talking about are they still business does anyone know where can get used one they are longer made any help would greatly appreciated please mail save net bandwidth thanks cap internet cptnerd digex com aol cptnerd compuserve consilio manuque otium cum dignitate credo quia absurdum est parturient montes nascetur ridiculus mus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac iisi cache options readers have found that the cache upgrade options for the mac iisi include the following quicksilver daystar fastcache iisi daystar combocache iisi logicache iisi cache interested hearing opinions any all these options the other alternative upgrade cpu accelerator such the logicache mhz ideas comparisions felix lin feilimau leland stanford edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iivx upgrade question article jas apr tigger isi edu jas isi edu jeff sullivan writes you get teh iivx upgrade does include new sticker cover the iivx identifier with centris indetifier can say for sure with the iivx upgrade but wondered the same thing when ordered iii upgrade turns out the upgrade actually entire cpu minus any disk drives you pull the floppy and hard drives out the old one stick them the new one and you got iii the iivx may the same thing might something look into for those people who are unhappy that apple only sells macs pre packaged with the drives course the price quite bit higher without the trade brian cherkaue rochester edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	color inks for stylewriter know that jet inc makes refills for the stylewriter and deskwriter ink jet cartridges several colors but are pre filled cartridges color available from anyone have use one cartridge before have chance print color also are inks process colors cyan magenta yellow available refill cartridges thanks advance
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why does apple give confusing message there does anyone know why apple has ambiguous message for regarding fpu all mac price lists seen every has the message fpu optional know from what discussed this newsgroup that all have the fpu built except the configuration why would they unclear about this issue their price list planning buy the pretty soon but now getting confused with whether comes with fpu not why say optional built please anybody help understand this game regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sony problems info please anyone out there have sony have one and very nice however run mode the picture won very big end with about gap either side and top bottom suspect internal adjustment would fix this anyone tried another problem sub brightness areas that are meant black off the main raster are not very black the real raster quite visible when the screen blanked this not too severe but just not good other trini screens have used turn the brightness contrast down that the raster not visible the real image virtually disappears the raster size just right use but dpi bit too much and using rasterops xli card thanks marcus bointon marcus meridian demon marcus bointon tel marcus meridian demon fax used windows for week once but feel better now
comp.sys.mac.hardware	fax modem for the mac article llpo news cis umn edu mbuntan staff umn edu writes all thanks you all who have responded request for info various kinds fax modem like ask few more questions what are the advantages buying global village teleport gold over other cheaper brands like supra zoom etc heard that both supra and zoom use the same software why are there many complaints about the incompatibility problems supra what kind incompatibility decided buy the teleport gold there any possibility add voice option the near future has anyone heard possible voice option that supra will offer this coming summer person did mention new modem getting good reviews from various mac magazines want the best fastest most economically sound and possible voice option what fax modem should buy sorry for posting many questions but think they necessary promise repost any answers they not already posted responder thanks much advance regards thian since repost this message again for the second time hope hear from some folks this topic please reply regards thian
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem having also from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject centris video problem having also date sat apr gmt when the computer set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through window horizontal white lines appear the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate the operation continued window moved over the involved area the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area the screen this problem not observed the monitor configured for colors inch apple monitor with colors used suspect bad video ram chip but cannot certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse having exactly the same problem again fine when switch colors smaller monitor configuration model centris with vram cards monitor mag with monitor adaptor for resolution just discovered the problem little while ago after plugging new mag monitor seems appear either when scrolling through window when using alpha word and enter return guess bad vrams well really hope isn design flaw anyone apple listening pushpinder singh push media mit edu try finding init called basic color monitor this should clear some probs with centris and vga type monitors know exists somewhere have binhexed copy but don know where and never got around installing have this problem sony
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare believe goes will powerpc pentium resent article one the macmags think mhz accelerator was slightly slower than mhz accel but this using system designed for the stands reason that system designed for quadra would better overall figure along the same lines the new powerpc stuff supposed run the system the level fast quadra but system whatever will allow times the speed the powerpc based systems and wait for the think laps the pentium pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need help installing simms quick could someone please send instructions for installing simms and vram jmk cwru edu just gotten his and wants drop some extra simms and vram that has for thanks and don reply reply jmk cwru edu joe
comp.sys.mac.hardware	upgrading memory article apr ncar ucar edu bill lhotse hao ucar edu bill roberts wrote have one the original powerbook with ram and find that drag when trying work what the best way get the maximum ram for this unit and what going cost hoping can get the latest and best info from real users posting this group well bill there are soldered the logic board and the ram expansion slot giving you the only thing you can upgrade the maximum ram remove the expansion and install expansion giving you total which the max you can try calling techworks any other memory vendors out macweek macworld etc peter haase internet haase meediv lanl gov network manager los alamos national laboratory
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer engr computer science professor mine once said the difference between computer engineer and computer scientist about meaning the engineer makes more than the seriously though the main difference that most people write programs that people will use database graphics word processors etc while engineer writes for machines control systems the computer your car flight control system computer controled devices etc other words writes software while cse writes firmware these are generalizations but for the most part that what the difference the not just joke scott for the most part this bunch bunk got computer engineering degree yet spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used hardware experience were year lower advice decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you take them emt
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem having also also suffer from these video artefacts configuration centris vram with nec only happens bit colour with virtual memory off during scrolling this occurs when the vram simms are installed well removed seems that the does not like does anyone not have these problems the above mentioned conditions gersham meharg sfu canada gersham meharg meharg sfu sfu vancouver canada
comp.sys.mac.hardware	high resolution adc for mac article clark elvex acns nwu edu clark nwu edu brian clark wrote don know about the instrutech boards though plan check them out but you need very careful checking the monotonicity and ratio many the bit boards out there the boards are very clearly specified terms monotonicity ratio accuracy etc and the and have all the dyynamic range and freedom from distortion that you expect from good true bit converter this not true for the spectral innovations boards for example boorishly reply myself found did have the instrutech information already the specs use the term loosely are follows bit converter with bit accuracy khz bit accuracy khz specs for monotonicity linearity there are multiplexed inputs sharing the single that all inputs are not samples the same time and the above conversion specs the all channel sample rate must used thus for two channels you only have unknown quality bits khz per channel this poorer quality than the national instruments the same sample rate bit converter specs for monotonicity linearity each the output channels has its own converter the price for the external converter box the itc the nubus interface board the mac plus driver software and igor xop rather steep
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wrong ram duo few posts back somebody mentioned that the duo might crash has the wrong kind non self refreshing ram duo crashes sometimes after sleep and wondering there any software which will tell whether not have the right kind ram installed had thought that the problem was the battery connection thanks advance archon fung
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can you share one monitor cpus have centris want get ibm machine well save space desk would like use one monitor for both with switch box does anyone know way this
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem having also from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject centris video problem having also date sat apr gmt when the computer set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through window horizontal white lines appear the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate the operation continued window moved over the involved area the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area the screen this problem not observed the monitor configured for colors inch apple monitor with colors used suspect bad video ram chip but cannot certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse etc has anyone not had these problems the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw the explanation
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare article zeus ieee org michael ameres fidonet org michael ameres writes believe goes will powerpc pentium think this kind comparison pretty useless general the processor only good when good computer designed around adn the computer used its designed purpose comparing processor speed pretty dumb because all you have just increase the clock speed increase speed among other things mean how can you say faster than without giving operational conditions can you say the same when you are running program that uses lot transidental functions knowing that does not have transidental functions building its fpu and does can you say that still faster anyway hope people not decided upon wether computers good not solely its processor how fast processor based its name because one can alway certain things processor speed but restrict our arguements for example pure processor architectural issues how one processor will work well and another will not based its design then can get somewhere with our discussions chung yang resent article one the macmags think mhz accelerator was slightly slower than mhz accel but this using system designed for the stands reason that system designed for quadra would better overall figure along the same lines the new powerpc stuff supposed run the system the level fast quadra but system whatever will allow times the speed the powerpc based systems and wait for the think laps the pentium pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for given clock speed how rank the following from not good idea compare processor power doesn make sense for real world applications least not for totally different lines processors while you where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill the below mhz mhz least for systems doubling the clock speed increases performance about thanks very much appreciate hearing any further explanations from any experienced folks out there too folks have been having trouble replying lately with the reply command try typing address hand and should work thanks dave kitabjian kit ahb jyin vital statistics stuff deleted ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu pun blessed form whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare michael ameres fidonet org michael ameres writes believe goes will powerpc pentium not quite mhz pentium specint specfp mhz specint specfp note that specint more important for most real world applications far the goes specint specfp resent article one the macmags think mhz accelerator was slightly slower than mhz accel but this using system designed for the stands reason that system designed for quadra would better overall figure along the same lines the new powerpc stuff supposed run the system the level fast quadra but system whatever will allow times the speed the powerpc based systems and wait for the think laps the pentium intel chips have traditionally been faster than their motorola equivalents although the significance chip speed real world application performance something that highly debatable pro life pro women michael ameres internet michael ameres fidonet org ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu pun blessed form whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare ray netcom com ray fischer writes dhk ubbpc uucp dave kitabjian writes sure intel and motorola are competing neck and neck for crunch power but for given clock speed how rank the following from how about some numbers here some kind benchmark you want let start specint specfp while you where will the following fit into the list pentium powerpc fastest then pentium with the first versions the powerpc somewhere the vicinity numbers pentium mhz specint specfp powerpc mhz specint specfp note this the alpha mhz specint specfp just for comparison and about clock speed does doubling the clock speed double the overall processor speed and fill the below mhz mhz computer speed only partly dependent processor clock speed memory system speed play large role does video system speed and speed processor clock rates the speed the memory system becomes the greatest factor the overall system speed you have mhz processor can reading another word from memory every sure you can put all memory your computer but will cost times much the slower simms not clock doubled system there isn doubling performance but quite significant maybe about increase performance besides for wait state performance you need cache anyway mean who uses processor that runs the speed simms note that this memory speed corresponds clock speed mhz and roughly the twice fast given clock speed the numbers ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu pun blessed form whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	computer engr computer science article tecot xenon stanford edu tecot xenon stanford edu edward tecot writes professor mine once said the difference between computer engineer and computer scientist about meaning the engineer makes more than the not just joke scott for the most part this bunch bunk got computer engineering degree yet spent the last years writing software that people actually use moreover the salary distinctions are incorrect received job offers upon graduation the two jobs that actually used hardware experience were year lower advice decide which classes and projects most interest you and pick the major that allows you take them emt well here worth advice from grad student agree with the gentlemen who wrote the comment before the important thing pick what ever interest you the most and learn much possible about five years education this field though brief compare alot people had think about this kind question lot did make the right decision going into electrical engineering opposed computer engineering the more thru school the more believe that this kind question irrelevant have come believe that choosing because one does not like hardware choosing hardware because one does not like program really doing injustice building and computer and making useful for something everything interwoven and inseparable and are all part really great discipline and depend each other advice don limit yourself but make decision based which major will give you the best opportunities learn that course depends the curriculum your persective school would choose major that allows explore much possible beside don know why the school would make student choose major before her his sophamore year hey you may interested this field that you decided learn all about the making computers which case you suffer little more and grad school about the money don look the averages you are good you are going earn more money than anyone else you are superstar programmer you will earn millions like wise you are hotshot computer designers chung yang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra memory install faq this turning into faq here how violate your quadra warranty and install your own memory insert usual disclaimer here remove the top lid the machine you will see the floppy disk and hard drive mounted plastic tower follow the usual anti static precautions and course make sure the machine off when you this unplug the wall and monitor power supply cords from the back the mac remove the power supply pulling the plastic interlocking tab the tower forward and simultaneously pulling the power supply straight the tab piece plastic from the left posterior aspect the tower which extends downward hook the power supply you may also feel horseshoe shaped piece the right portion the power supply leave that alone the plastic tab from the tower all you need release look the rear the tower assembly you will see the flat ribbon scsi connector the hard drive power cable and flat ribbon cable leading the floppy drive disconnect all these from the motherboard the hard drive power cable connector has tab which must squeezed release unplug the drive activity led from its clear plastic mount look down the posterior cylindrical section the plastic tower phillips head screw the base remove taking care not drop into the case bit gummy glue your screwdriver helpful here remove the tower assembly pulling medially the plastic tab the right side the tower this tab prevents the tower from sliding posteriorly slide the entire tower assembly posteriorly then lift the tower assembly straight and out the case congratulations you have now gained access your machine simm slots the six big slots are for vram one usually must install all six gain useful video modes all simms ram vram installed with their chips facing the front the motherboard the four smaller sockets front are for ram simms install simms sets four into these sockets sure you seat the simms squarely and firmly into fully upright position reinstall the tower assembly first placing the right wall the tower against the right wall the case with the tower assembly about posterior its intended position lower the tower assembly into place while maintaining contact with the right wall the case once fully down slide the tower assembly anteriorly until clicks into place reconnect the motherboard ends the cables dont forget the floppy drive cable replace the phillips head screw drop the power supply straight down into place until clicks plug the hard drive activity light back into its clear plastic mount guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help duo problems bcherkas netcom com brian cherkas writes chess cats ucsc edu brian vantuyl chess writes just got duo and having some difficulties the machine plugged the wall adapter put sleep unplugged from the wall and woken crashes the time there nothing but the original system software the machine the battery has plenty life think this must power manager problem but don know what about also the speaker occasionally makes high pitched hiss the noise irregular but seems favor sleep and restart commands had duo for few weeks now and suffer from both the above problems reinstalled system software twice effort combat the problems thinking they were system software problems initially reinstalling the system seemed help but not anymore occasionally when try wake the duo get solid screen horizontal lines the screen freezes also get the high pitched hiss occasionally but only startup called the apple hotline sos appl three times already and finally they agreed something astray after duo screen would dim and the hard drive spun down itselft and put itself sleep this problem only occured twice apple sent box ship duo looked new york but the problem now intermittent and can afford without duo this time anyone out there with these same problems brian cherkas bcherkas netcom com aol brianc compuserve netcom online communication services san jose yes quite number people seems from discussions had included bought machine couple weeks ago well and started experience these problems apple australia via dealer said that this problem has number potential causes faulty applications faulty third party hardware modems memory etc system software pram corruption and power manager corruption and the duo hardware itself none the above are relevant case except the last two maybe applications were running the system software was installed have additional hardware have found that clearing pram appears help for while least hold down command option and startup unfortunately the problem returns suggesting that pram being corrupted something system software bug don have any non issue inits system apparently the power manager can reset holding the reset and interrupt buttons while powering apple advice but since the duo does not have interrupt button not sure what they mean this case this may also help someone can decipher apple advice for beyond this apple suggest that you should follow the technical procedures check the hardware this duo since many others appear having the same problem would seem that there has been system software bug introduced somewhere along the line and quite recently too since only seems recent duo purchasers who have this problem any more comments from others the same boat are welcome particularly apple duo engineers cheers brucet bruce tulloch sydney australia brucet extro ucc complex problems have straight forward easy understand wrong answers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pixel disappear powerbook screen some pixels display disappear intermittently they are not particular place but random anybody has suggestions would appreciate mailings thanks aris psssun pss msu edu beware the nnnnn nnnnn
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare npy news cso uiuc edu rvenkate cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes not quite mhz pentium specint specfp mhz specint specfp but the interesting comparision how fast clock cycle chips you can get alpha way slow mhz but blazes mhz far the goes specint specfp but the will soon available mhz version making comparable intel chips have traditionally been faster than their motorola equivalents although the significance chip speed real world application performance something that highly debatable think you have that one turned around they have faster clock cycles but less power behind each cycle not mention that the intel instruction stream byte oriented longest intel instruction bytes what odd number which makes hard any intelligent memory subsystem cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe this article printed recycled electrons
comp.sys.mac.hardware	attn and duo owners very careful when you plug external monitor and external speaker make sure that all the power cords are the same strip you don you take chance having very bad audio buzz this caused ground loop and the only way getting rid this loud buzz make sure that you have common ground make sure that all the power cords are going the same strip off the same outlet this will assure you common ground tim keanini sound designer timk broder com broderbund software blast crl com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	increasing the number serial ports does anyone know there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number serial ports available for use simultaneously would like connect serial devices mac for application working must able access each one the independently such device exists are there are any limits the number serial devices can use any information appreciated steven langlois slang bnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound recording for mac portable does anyone know what hardware required and where could find for sound recording the mac portable thanks david hughes freenet carleton secretary national capital freenet tkp
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asante hangs scsi devices just hooked mac iisi relatively old year asante adapter the base connection works like charm installed the newest drivers from asante ftp server the problem begins when attach one more device the scsi chain specifically drive power the drive then the mac the mac tests memory etc just before the happy mac face normally shows the power light the goes out and the boot process stops can use the network the external drive but not both once this makes the asante box pretty much unusable doesn look like purely electrical scsi problem because turn the drive just second too late that doesn get noticed during the initial scsi polling the mac boots normally and the adapter works even though the hard disk powered and connected the mac has never once failed boot from its internal drive now and had for over year here what tried changing the scsi the and the disk several permutations changing the order devices the the head tail the chain overterminating with external terminator both devices have internal ones underterminating removing internal resistors from the hard disk trying another box trying another identical drive trying several different scsi cables has anybody seen this more importantly does anyone have solution thanks lot eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu behr ilstu bitnet please avoid
comp.sys.mac.hardware	increasing the number serial ports slang bnr steven langlois writes does anyone know there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number serial ports available for use simultaneously would like connect serial devices mac for application working must able access each one the independently applied engineering makes nubus card called the quadralink which board that contains serial ports which believe can used simultaneously not user one these but have installed couple for people work technician hope this helps aaron swiers control data corporation arden hills swiers chaos aqeng cdc com electrical engineering student swiers plains nodak edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	educational pricing gray market apple does not authorise sales through mail order result mail order companies have obtain their machines the grey market this market supplied with machines from authorised resellers who have more machines than they can sell they come into this state affairs overordering either accidentally deliberatly get better wholsale price from apple either case they often obscure the serial nunber protect their identity result the warranty void have ordered several macs from different mail order companies with absolutely zero problem you have dig around find the true gray market dealers that sell macs with authentic serial numbers untouched there are value added dealers nothing with vat flame please that are very legitimate cda unfortunately one those that replace the serial number with their own prevent apple from tracing which authorized dealer sold that machine cda eric choi internet eric choi fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how often are simms bad mail order got glimpse from the other side talking the technician the place recently bought mac from the guy told that they stopped shipping simms their customers and only install them themselves those babies get zapped too easily static electricity they claim hsk sie singen das alte entsagungslied das eiapopeia vom himmel womit man beruhigt wenn greint das volk den grossen luemmel ein neues lied ein besseres lied freunde will ich euch dichten wir wollen hier auf erden schon das himmelreich errichten heine
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare article llp news cso uiuc edu rvenkate cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes stuff deleted besides for wait state performance you need cache anyway mean who uses processor that runs the speed simms note that this memory speed corresponds clock speed mhz more stuff deleted how you calculate that figure assume even personal computers the board designers would use bank switching optimistically quadruple the access speed missing something here hsk sie singen das alte entsagungslied das eiapopeia vom himmel womit man beruhigt wenn greint das volk den grossen luemmel ein neues lied ein besseres lied freunde will ich euch dichten wir wollen hier auf erden schon das himmelreich errichten heine
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macs suck buy tests suck post real message
comp.sys.mac.hardware	has anyone had problems with ibm drives their machines the subject line says all system acts weird times all sudden the system will corrupt boot blocks will get chewed etc this was really big problem for while couldn even format drive properly installed hdt driver and things got better now all have reinstall the system could incompatibility exist between and quantum external drive looking for pure hardware solution not virus bad software etc could have bad scsi cable the ibm wds just screwey drive thanks chuck chuck williams intern pacific northwest laboratories cleveland freenet edu williams ccmail pnl gov
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare skok itwds energietechnik uni stuttgart holger skok writes article llp news cso uiuc edu rvenkate cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes stuff deleted besides for wait state performance you need cache anyway mean who uses processor that runs the speed simms note that this memory speed corresponds clock speed mhz more stuff deleted how you calculate that figure assume even personal computers the board designers would use bank switching optimistically quadruple the access speed missing something here the previous article referred the fact that you could only use simms mhz machine but that you could use simms slower machines just pointed out that you could only use simms mhz machine you can use simms anything faster than mhz machine bank switching and caches were not considered either example although both would help memory access hsk ravikumar venkateswar rvenkate uiuc edu pun blessed form whit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why does apple give confusing message article ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student umn edu monthian buntan writes there does anyone know why apple has ambiguous message for regarding fpu all mac price lists seen every has the message fpu optional know from what discussed this newsgroup that all have the fpu built except the configuration why would they unclear about this issue their price list planning buy the pretty soon but now getting confused with whether comes with fpu not why say optional built please anybody help understand this game regards thian you get the centris with configuration you are getting mac with processor that has built math coprocessor support understanding that the optional fpu refers your option purchasing the centris without fpu one the other configurations with fpu apple does not offer upgrade from the non fpu system become fpu system and unclear whether the processor the non fpu system can replaced with supplied another vendor apple did send memo out one point sating that the centris which only comes with non fpu processor cannot upgraded support fpu the pin configurations the two chips apparently not match you cannot swap one for another again according apple memo hope that helps kevin lohman university book store university washington buyer for the apple computers for education program
comp.sys.mac.hardware	diy phonenet midi adapt macrecorder remember seeing complete instructions for making phonenet adapters midi adapters and macrecorder lookalike after short search through mac archive and info mac failed see any the above any pointers petri aukia hut supreme court ruling bolo illegal drug peba hut computer programmer steals minds youths through new tank game telephone standards rethought because new addictive computer game
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ghost apple color user insane article bettsc netcom com betts netcom com jonathan betts writes dear netters sister has apple color display hooked problem there annoying horizontal ghost like stripe that precesses vertically about once per second about high she grave danger going insane because any ideas what might and how might cure for her joe betts betts netcom com pick the display thought might rfi from the seems get worse this can caused two one two things the first and easiest fix interference from something around the monitor such another monitor other electrical device try moving the system another location fix that problem second because the scan rate the monitor tends synchronize with room lights and can cause the interference you are seeing try turning off all lights the room around the system and see that helps not try moving the system somewhere else third solution would get apple color display should not have the same problem the color more suceptible you can try calling apple new support number the sos apple this number for anyone who has questions regarding macintosh setup and compatibility and just went into effect for this extended support monday april good luck kevin lohman buyer university book store university washington seattle apple computers for education program
comp.sys.mac.hardware	increasing the number serial ports apr bmers bnr slang bnr steven langlois writes such device exists are there are any limits the number serial devices can use how many nubus slots you have applied engineering has something called the quadralink which card with serial ports that you get through the comms toolbox addition the built ones also comes with software for fooling applications open port when they think they open built port they also have more expensive card with dma better performance and think they someone else have card that handles ports simultaneously said with nubus you green learn how use the comms resource manager get the various installed cards cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe you never hide the menu bar you might about and change the color the color the background but you never hide the menu bar tog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	any nanao compatible mac video cards does anyone know nanao compatible with any popular mac video cards have oppurtunity get brand new one cheap and very tempted but will waste time can drive using standard video card while the subject what everybody reccomendations for color monitor heard good things about the nec and course there always the reliable old macintosh display but what are your experiences david harr cyberpunk software definition happiness being famous for your financial ability indulge every form excess calvin
comp.sys.mac.hardware	reseting iig factory defaults article qpir slab mtholyoke edu jurgen botz jbotz mtholyoke edu writes have laserwriter iig that has disappeared completely from the network name doesn show any zone you can print from serial interface tho have seen some discussion here about changing the zone iig including some code that lets you change the zone there maybe some code you can use have back all its factory default settings have feeling that what needed heal ours the following postscript works for laserwriter iig with version roms serverdict begin exitserver factorydefaults true setsystemparams systemdict begin realtime add dup realtime pop exit loop quit rob
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why does apple give confusing message ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has ambiguous message for regarding fpu all mac price lists seen every the message fpu optional know from what discussed this newsgroup that all have the fpu built except the configuration why would they unclear about this issue their price list perhaps the reason simple maybe the marketing people who put together the brochures and price lists weren clear the fpu issue afterall apple literature not always correct funny one noticed recently that some the brochures the macs with capability refer the auto inkjet feature this should have read auto inject feature does some other correct brochures seen from apple since was correct some older brochures can only guess that someone edited the copy saw inject and thought was typo and changed the more familiar word inkjet hmmm what would that printer built into the player way writing information
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video display mac monitor displays about vertical lines when use means that either display memory goes wrong monitor bad video card bad checked monitor works fine with other mac checked video card also fine replaced all the rams still didn give right answer hence assume something wrong with some part motherboard don know hardware architecture the macintosh can anyone tell what the problem mac iicx many thanks advance kuan netcom netcom com name kuan yihpyng born taichung taiwan work phone company failure analysis associates inc commonwealth drive box menlo park philosophy where there will there way
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem mac games think have problem with the stereo sound output quadra but not totally sure because roomate has the same problem his powerbook any info experience anyopne has would greatly appreciated when hook quadra home stereo system the following types sounds mono far can tell all play fine through both speakers system beeps already provided ones such indigo and ones record armor alley spectre spaceward but the following games only play out the left channel lemmings out this world awesome game btw glider oids but still stereo system beeps play stereo through both speakers the one specifically referrring apocolyptic beginning which roommate downloaded from some ftp site sumex all the symptoms are the same rommates can run ootw because doesn have color both running system does anyone with lemmings the other three games mentioned above get sound out both speakers mac class quadra powerbook greater centris etc stereo machine used have mac and sort rememeber lemmings playing stereo that machine not just the left channel could mistaken though there were problem with the quad and wondering why the system beeps still play stereo there isn problem with our machines wonder why the games above are apparantly written support only one channel stereo when they could just use mono sounds the mono sound would least come out both speakers like spectre etc quadra and powerbook have the same roms knowledge maybe this rom problem though why wouldn system patch over this problem thanks for any help you can provide doug book dpb sdchemw ucsd edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	screen death mac plus have very old mac and mac plus both which have the same problem their screens blank out sometimes after minor physical jolt such inserting floppy the internal drive sometimes all themselves computer left itself just goes blank have replaced the wires connecting the logic boards and the video board because seemed first that jiggling the wires made the screen come back this worked for while but the blanking out has returned can anything need new power supply new crt new computer had the same problem with long time ago resoldering the joints the motherboard all them fixed turns out that continuous heating and cooling caused annular ring shaped cracks develop the solder effectively cutting the video circuitry off you not solder jockey you might want have someone else took mine electrical engineer buddy but was minute job tops kelley thomas kelley boylan powerpc ibm austin kelleyb austin ibm com buy and pay for own opinions
comp.sys.mac.hardware	wrong ram duo here the macweek article describing the duo ram situation permission hope that jose bad ram brings some duos down random access memory boards for apple macintosh powerbook duos macweek feb copyright coastal associates publishing raines cohen austin texas some third party memory expansion cards for powerbook duos depart from apple specs ways that could cause crashes data loss and other problems technology works inc ram and network vendor based here last week issued warning about three problems said had found duo ram products from some competing vendors which declined identify other vendors and apple spokeswoman confirmed that the problems exist self refresh the duos require kind dynamic ram called selfrefreshing which can recharge itself while the system sleeps but technology works said some vendors have sold duo cards with nonselfrefreshing dram which can cause the system lose data fail wake from sleep most leading memory manufacturers include the letter the part number stamped their self refreshing chips nonself refreshing chips instead have according techworks the chip label however may not tell the whole story newer technology wichita kan said uses nonself refreshing chips but adds its own circuitry keep them refreshed while the duo sleeps speed some ram card vendors have put nanosecond dram duo cards rather than the nanosecond type the requires technology works said however some chips labeled nanosecond are certified the manufacturer run higher speed kingston technology corp fountain valley calif said offers duo ram cards with nanosecond chips but only for the duo which compatible with the slower chips space technology works charged and apple officials confirmed that some third party cards are too large fit properly forcing the corner the duo keyboard and preventing the system from starting normally when duo dock lifetime memory products inc huntington beach calif said originally shipped cards with this problem but has since offered all customers free upgrades cards that fit
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem mac games qsfak skc network ucsd edu dpb sdchemw ucsd edu doug book writes but the following games only play out the left channel but still stereo system beeps play stereo through both speakers mac sound hardware diverse some macs play stereo and mix the output the for instance while others play stereo but only has the left channel for the speaker while some are truly mono like the developers know that stuff played the left channel guaranteed heard while the right channel isn some send data both some only send data the left channel the first preferrable course cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe engineering how will this work science why will this work management when will this work liberal arts you want fries with that jesse schell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo slowdown problems system and network admin one users has duo specifications below that has been having slowdown problems leaving the duo for several hours causes slow down unacceptably can take seconds change applications during this time completely hung reboots the problem goes away for while seems the system getting itself into wedged configuration installed system and rebuilt the desktop neither these have helped possible that network related uses eudora which checks his email every minutes over ethernet hasn checked see this problem occurs while undocked docked most the time little non apple inits don want start yanking the rest unless know that might really the problem hasn tried zapping the pram have advised him that next anyone who has ideas love hear about them call apple but found they best call during the week sunday evening powerbook duo ram card from tech works replace non self refreshing card using system enabler express modem including latest software has been apple dealer for keyboard replacement helen trillian rose hrose kei com hrose eff org kapor enterprises inc email eff eff org for eff info electronic frontier foundation flames systems and networks administration women not messed with eff org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	syquest mac possible via creative cable splicing whatever hook syquest removable drive mac there any difference with the guts the drive just cable differences thanks rob rob sprecher rcs cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mini docks available deguzman deguzman after math uiuc edu wrote boss considering the purchase powerbook duo leaning towards because the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get duo could find mini dock with coprocessor have any third parties announced such beast believe that machines might produce something this nature jonathan heiliger electric power research institute visualization integrator hillview ave internet jonathan mecca epri com palo alto telephone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rom just bought select and rushed home print some grayscale pictures for kids when discovered that grayscale and photograde are not available you are using even you are running with cpu you won see this the printer docs and the apple rep didn mention our users group either seems that roms won support those features okay guess should have somehow known that this was the case let the buyer beware huh apple that may have been thinking about the problem and puzzled why can defencieny the rom made for software write software for living unix platforms and don understand the just can done responses gotten from those have asked far isn mode somesuch piece soft ware just such fix anyway was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set straight simply impossible for mac print grayscale could someone armed with enough info and little pro gramming experience cook something that would supplement the rom capabilities also how does one know one mac can support the grayscale and photograde that the select supposedly capable short buying the printer and trying out like did thanks for your help bill wright wgw netcom com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why does apple give confusing message article ferch swiss ucs ubc les ferch ferch ucs ubc writes afterall apple literature not always correct funny one noticed recently that some the brochures the macs with capability refer the auto inkjet feature this should have read auto inject feature does some other correct brochures seen from apple since was correct some older brochures can only guess that someone edited the copy saw inject and thought was typo and changed the more familiar word inkjet hmmm what would that printer built into the player way writing information how you think they get the cool images the top serface anyway they gotta have something the top surface artwork
comp.sys.mac.hardware	driver compatibility understanding that when you format magneto optical disc the formatting software installs driver the disc you insert the disc different drive then this driver loaded into the computer memory and then controls the drive and this driver incompatible with the drive then the disc can not mounted and properly read written that correct thanks jim frazier compuserve com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rom article wgwc pdl netcom com wgw netcom com william wright writes anyway was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set straight simply impossible for mac print grayscale could someone armed with enough info and little pro gramming experience cook something that would supplement the rom capabilities also how does one know one mac can support the grayscale and photograde that the select supposedly capable short buying the printer and trying out like did thanks for your help bill wright wgw netcom com use the grayscale features believe you need mac equipped with colour quickdraw was told this somewhere other but not mentioned apple facts guide for apple sellers the press release the technical specs sean
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac oriented bbss chicago member the local bbs frequent looking for mac oriented bbss based chicago any leads would most appreciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds nubus was iii nubus capable article apr fnalf fnal gov higgins fnalf fnal gov bill higgins beam jockey writes article kzls kkb dartvax dartmouth edu hades coos dartmouth edu brian hughes writes mmiller garnet msen com marvin miller writes friend recently purchased iii and wants know there such demon called nubus adapter for his pds slot the family macs can only use pds cards they are not able use nubus but why can some technically hip macslinger tell what the difference between pds and nubus impossible make gadget that plugs into pds and ends nubus card cage least marvin friend has not been able locate one and neither have what the fundamental reason for this zap bill higgins fermi national accelerator laboratory bitnet higgins fnal bitnet internet higgins fnal fnal gov span hepnet higgins second wave makes nubus card cages that work the pds slots least three macs the iisi and centris they have not knowledge announced such device for the lcii but they could make one technologically the pds card that goes the cage simply needs the nubus controller circuitry present nubus macs why though does anyone care about this dgr has three pds adapter for the lcii they will soon have one for the lciii pds better than nubus for most people most applications granted there are more nubus cards but most applications that require nubus card like full motion video capture shouldn done lcii lciii anyway mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rom seanmcd dal writes article wgwc pdl netcom com wgw netcom com william wright writes anyway was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set straight simply impossible for mac print grayscale could someone armed with enough info and little pro gramming experience cook something that would supplement the rom capabilities use the grayscale features believe you need mac equipped with colour quickdraw was told this somewhere other but not mentioned apple facts guide for apple sellers the press release the technical specs sean think you will find that the mac can print grayscale images loaded with the proper software however the mac cannot display grayscale its screen any attached video because that ability not the rom while you might able print grayscale you have hard time seeing the grayscale image you want print doug this signature under construction wyvern technologies tidewater premier online information system login guest password guest register
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial port problem article qcq ginn calvin usc edu wls calvin usc edu writes friend asked build cable connect fetal heart monitor maciontosh problem sez wanted demo won work the has been used running zterm and kermit using both internal and external modems don think the powerbook per when send the responds with test the serial ports works the but not the thought that the connected earth ground and the connected from the chassis the the audio ground connector still any thoughts battery powered devices like the powerbook are sometimes more sensitive serial port weirdness had trouble with connecting mac plus handheld everything else worked okay that port but not the runs two penlite batteries turned out that the plus accident design flaw was putting volt bias the serial port that was doing weird things the which has only the worked fine when connected the printer port does your screen get dim anything when connected the device have you tried using the printer port good luck jamie jamie cox jcox ess harris com phone work harris space systems corp home rock barnes blvd the macintosh meeting and drinking society rockledge florida usa speaking only for myself
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerpc ruminations was lciii powerpc article apr dal seanmcd dal writes article pyramid pyramid com andrem pyrtech mis pyramid com andre molyneux writes article qksuq hal gnu mit edu mirsky hal gnu mit edu david joshua mirsky writes own lciii and recently heard interesting rumor heard that the lciii has built slot for powerpc chip this true heard that the slot not the same the pds slot that true thanks david mirsky mirsky gnu mit edu well also have iii popping the top revealed one socket for additional vram simm one socket for pin ram simm one socket for flat pack fpu processor direct slot pds identical the but with additional set connetions one side for the full bit data path that the lacked that guess board with powerpc chip could made that would fit the pds but that the only place will possible have nubus pds powerpc upgrade will require logic board swap would interesting for apple come out with nubus powerpc that allowed use the cpu like rocketshare but guess that getting bit fantastic was wondering since macweek reported that developers were seeded with powerpcs nubus card also any word machine arrivals estimated speed last heard the estimates were around times the speed quadra native risc mode heard apple employee mumble something about the arrival powerpc machines much earlier date that but doubt true finally the powerpc developer mini course available saw advertised the developer university calendar and like know all interesting sean seanmcd dal radius speculated publicly that they could provide powerpc based rocket for existing macs would have the plus rocketshare and the minus nubus accelerators true boot off the accelerator nubus bottleneck video and other apple seems will not compete with third parties here except perhaps for not yet available macs like cyclone where powerpc slot might advertised look for daystar and such make powerpc accelerators one potential problem with any accelerator though that will need rom companion and apple has licensed only radius with rocketshare use any its proprietary code apple between the lines trying let know that powerpc macs will have simplified logic boards due the magical nature risc and that these boards should much cheaper build than those existing macs perhaps then see groundbreaking prices mac logic board upgrades much the same way seen much cheaper high performance cpus this year first generation powerpcs will also hopefully have socketed cpus that they chip upgradeable year later this should possible much the same way that can pulled for clock doublers there too much technical baggage which doubt since the external busses are the same size width this perhaps can have cpu daughterboard powerbook standard facilitate better cpu upgrades this area where apple has fallen far behing the intel based world perhaps catchup order the way last week week had excellent story powerpc pentium mips dec alpha the big four the microprocessor front for the forseeable future worth reading for technojunkies also the latest has cover story pentium read and all the other stories about how intel unstoppable and preeminent right now once anyone this secure they are due fall intel market position will never again dominant today especially amd gets the ahead sell its this week appears might the competition from all fronts gearing for awesome battle apple users should excited that powerpc while not guaranteed dominance guaranteed winner even its one several mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	networking how get peter sure someone out there has better easier way what you want but tell you how where work have about macs networked together using appletalk and phonenet connectors chat use program called broadcast with can send brief messages all selected machines within the network hope that helps steed
comp.sys.mac.hardware	acc graphics card article bcf ics uci edu matt madsen mmadsen bonnie ics uci edu writes are there any graphics cards for the that also have say accelerator there seem plenty accelerator graphics cards for the but none that seen for the the daystar powercache for the replaces the cpu with accelerated cpu plus the powercache this leavese the pds slot open for video card currenty daystar does not have the this configuration but due out early next year with their upgrade policy you can get the accelerator now and when the version becomes available you get credit for the one you have running their mhz version with fpu along with radius precision color pivot and very satisfied earl fife department mathematics fife calvin edu calvin college grand rapids
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerator for classic does one exist who makes and how much thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	syquest mac qsk usenet ins cwru edu rcs cwru edu robert sprecher writes possible via creative cable splicing whatever hook syquest removable drive mac there any difference with the guts the drive just cable differences thanks their should difference the drive itself between ibm and mac the two main differences are the formatting the disk itself but with the correct software each can read the others and maybe the cable depends your scsi board ibm you get some mac softawre allow mounting any ibm formatted disk and the correct cable you should able mount and read your ibm syquest good luck paul paul hardwick technical consulting internet hardwick panix com box for mvs esa voice and party addons fax pending paul hardwick technical consulting internet hardwick panix com box for mvs esa voice and party addons fax pending
comp.sys.mac.hardware	video resolution switching article john shepardson esh moose slac stanford edu john shepardson john shepardson esh qmail slac stanford edu writes the author dpi the fry can tell you that there way for graphics card know what resolution its connected monitor will actually support that why have these silly cables the cable just identifies that monitor supporting given resolution therefore the software will support any multisync monitor heard that radius has similar program for the quadra this software available either commercially public domain where cameron lewis email lewis tanelorn aod dsto gov air operations division melb gbb aeronautical research laboratory fax lorimer fishermens bend vic australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable powerbook answers regarding the post for information about the mac portable and the powerbook here are couple the answers does the mac portable support appletalk yes what cpu the mac portable low power version the running mhz does the mac portable run system yes although does use lot memory memory still availabe for the portable there are several vendors that still make ram for the portable there are two options some vendors sell memory that plugs into the ram slot inside the portable others sell memory that plugs into the processor direct slot either way the most memory you can address either megabytes depending whether the portable backlit not king memory and peripherials irvine california the cheapest place know for portable memory and still see several ads macuser that are selling modules for wide variety pricing here what the internal its conner with average access time about the screen better that the heavens yes the backlit passive matrix screen which means fades out you you move your head few degrees left right the portable has backlit non backlit active matrix screen which think joy read other things consider where get the portable and how much pay for good supplier has been selectterm mass they were willing sell non backlit portable with internal bps modem for about backlit portable with internal bps modem for about the answer call around for good while you pay too much still looking for internal fax modem for the portable anybody got one they want sell good luck gene wright gene theporch raider net gene wright theporch raider net the macinteresteds nashville
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor recommendation needed have finally decided update planning buying centris now what monitor should get here are few guidelines wife uses pagemaker occasionally use excel sometimes and alot telecommuting from home work both word processing greater than inches have looked the radius color pivot this can bought for under have heard good things about the machines the older model not the new how about the super mac these both can had for little over any others garry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	what size vram simm this everyone recently posted about how received bad vram chip for new lciii and someone responded that may not actually bad but may vram chip and thus doesn work properly with computer wondering anyone can interpret these codes for can figure out what type chip macconnection sent each chip says the back the card says believe from the numbers that means chip but can figure out what the size supposed anyone can help grateful please email your response thanks lot hillel sims simsh rpi edu rensselaer polytechnic institute rot rotated forward backward anonymous
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ghost apple color user insane dear netters sister has apple color display hooked problem there annoying horizontal ghost like stripe that precesses vertically about once per second about high she grave danger going insane because any ideas what might and how might cure for her joe betts betts netcom com pick the display thought might rfi from the seems get worse
comp.sys.mac.hardware	networking how get axolotl steed bell macrocosm omahug org steed bell writes networked together using appletalk and phonenet connectors chat use program called broadcast with can send brief messages all selected machines within the network you use system you can use application zing which has footprint meaning you can have running all the time without losing memory also compatible with the chat program fishbomb which allows sounds and pictures well both are far know freeware dustribute zing with source and should available the normal services mac archive umich edu for instance cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe this signature kept shorter than lines the interests usenet ratio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm prices please please could someone the give the current street prices the following with and without any relevant taxes pin simm pin simm both for mac iii are any tax refunds possible they are exported the can you recommend reliable supplier posting this from friend account please reply direct fraser thanks advance for any help simon
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems would like more info this anybody has our exabyte tapedrive has never been working from the quadra have been trying since september replaced cabling inits don know what all all the industry experts phoned the tapedrive dealer our apple dealer the software dealer all say our fault they don know the last thing they said was that needed special quadra scsi terminator anybody know more thanks katinka van der linden katinka fenk wau
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why does apple give confusing message ferch ucs ubc les ferch writes ngii bgx news cis umn edu bunt student umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has ambiguous message for regarding fpu all mac price lists seen every the message fpu optional know from what discussed this newsgroup that all have the fpu built except the configuration why would they unclear about this issue their price list perhaps the reason simple maybe the marketing people who put together the brochures and price lists weren clear the fpu issue perhaps the marketing people don know what fpu terry
comp.sys.mac.hardware	changing port buffer size zterm some kind soul told that could change the serial port buffer size zterm via resedit did not tell how could change using resedit and have lost his mail address could any one else please tell what assume that the relevant resource zset but not know and have template for that resource you have tmpl for the correct resource would grateful receive that way could play around bit and maybe get duo something useful with its serial port other than appletalk btw believe that when the port stats says that maximum buffer bytes that that means increasing the buffer will help you are using hardware handshaking can cram text data pretty fast into duo and can monitor that cts being lowered but the buffer never gets beyond out bytes makes sense scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	using setwutime with seem having some trouble with this can get the mac sleep but can make seem make wake with setwutime aware the error the header files and setting the time about two minutes then putting the mac sleep but doesn wakeup the appointed time does require call systemtask order make sure that everything setup andrew page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what are macintosh and dsp technology and what want
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial line connection between duo and have tried almost everything under the sun get null modem connection between mac duo and have used mackermit and versaterm the mac side have used procomm kermit and softerm the side have used non hardware handshaking and hardware ahdshaking cables and know hands are shaking from the effort nothing has allowed file transfers from the mac the general can type back and forth with trouble but only both sides are set speeds over baud cannot send files from the mac the all and file transfers from the duo the are not possible when straight ascii send can send from the the duo flawlessly can send binhex files this way quite fast and know that the transmission error free but straight ascii sent from the mac the full errors unless course text pacing slow that like human typing well like times faster than human typing would like hear from anyone who has been able transfer files from duo via modem null modem you can please tell your exact combination hardware and software obviously talking true serial port modem not the express modem maybe some kind soul with access modem and duo can check this out for right now the opinion that won work high speeds because the power interrupts the duo and won work low speeds because some crazy reason don understand could hear from someone attesting that they can really pump information out the serial port duo fast like via modem via sys dump could anyone with duo help out going absolutely insane wanna know the problem duo all duo all duos just yes have checked the cable times and not only can type back and forth but zterm alerts the users uses hardware handshaking and cts down know that hardware handshaking working and also according zterm port stats the buffer never overflows please help figure out what going scott petrack petrack haifasc vnet ibm com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems article news udel edu johnston udel edu bill johnston writes article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark nodine writes don know about the specific problem mentioned your message but definitely had scsi problems between and venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives solution was get silverlining none the loops that involved blind writes worked the drives fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means doubt this quadra specific problem had get rid venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased each make the whole thing worth more than whole computer the tech support guys ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem case the cartridges wouldn format mount partition for all know that the megadrives worked perfectly both mac plus and powerbook was for this reason assumed the problem had something with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked the problem occurred when ejected cartridge from drive would start popping dialog boxes saying this cartridge must formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was cartridge the drive mark
comp.sys.mac.hardware	token ring cards for macs looking for recommendations experiences bringing macintosh cpus onto token ring nets can someone point the right direction for information thanks advance tom
comp.sys.mac.hardware	photo shop scanner article lgii euj ncube com root ncube com operator writes from root ncube com operator subject photo shop scanner date fri apr gmt have macc iici and color scanner scanned picture dpi when try print color printer after minutes making noise the mac hangs would need reboot what does this mean need buy more memory have now also have about disk free and the scanned picture about captain zod zod ncube com have you tried printing the data file tiff from another application such freehand pagemaker have found that photoshop has occasional problems printing files that can print through other applications greg gcohen mailer fsu edu infinite illusions juggling supplies beware the fnord will torch call write for eat you catalog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	position erg keyboard article apr daimi aau viralbus daimi aau thomas martin widmann writes far have only seen pictures the new ergonomic keyboard but seems that the placed the left part after the split however when learned typing school some years ago was taught write with right hand this difference between danish and american typing what thanks lot advance germany you usually use the left hand for the yours frankie frank probul emanuelstr munich germany applelink probul applelink apple com internet probulf informatik muenchen munich university technology department computer science germany
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iicx won turn article rpi edu pilon aix ecs rpi edu pilon wrote anyone know what would cause iicx not turn when hit the keyboard switch the one the back the machine doesn work either the only way can turn unplug the machine for few minutes then plug back and hit the power switch the back immediately sometimes this doesn even work for long time this problem most likely the same that all users are experiencing thanks one very adventurous usenet reader sorry can remember the guy name somebody please post deserves the credit for saving all easily fixed the same problem best can figure due time heat and repeated warmup cool downs the power supply bad solder joints the power supply circuit card get desolder tool from radio shack low wattage iron and some good nonacid solder and resolder the lower left quadrant the circuit card with the plugs facing away from you get someone for you took less then minutes and saved least for new supply
comp.sys.mac.hardware	questions about the centris ram petere tesla mitre org peter engels writes according the seen several times postings from dale adams apple computer both the and the require simms not only the centris requires simms you correct except that quadra not centris hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	changing port buffer size zterm almaden ibm com petrack vnet ibm com writes some kind soul told that could change the serial port buffer size zterm via resedit did not tell how could change using resedit and have lost his mail address could any one else please tell what assume that the relevant resource zset but not know and chop could you please post the net too please and sure many others would like know thanks kev kevin hayes opinions necessarily dalhousie university reflect the opinions halifax nova scotia canada myself sue hayes dal
comp.sys.mac.hardware	card questions considering buying one these offload the internal video iici and get bit color capability monitor what the deal them they come with varying amounts ram what the max and min how much need for bits what bit depths are supported one and are all these cards accelerated just some true that modern accelerated video cards are least general faster what bit depths are accelerated all just bit heard that some applications actually run slower with this card they write directly the screen something like that this frequent problem how much slower didn read when system first came out that the card was incompatible how was this corrected finder patch some init other has been kept compatible with are there many other apps that incompatible with games important non microsloth apps for example you have strong opinion value for someone position let know what you think reasonable price pay for thanks lot for you input rick rick roy usenet rick howtek com america online qed disclaimer employer views are orthogonal these the early bird got worms
comp.sys.mac.hardware	increasing the number serial ports article apr bmers bnr slang bnr steven langlois wrote does anyone know there are any devices available for the mac which will increase the number serial ports available for use simultaneously would like connect serial devices mac for application working must able access each one the independently such device exists are there are any limits the number serial devices can use any information appreciated steven langlois slang bnr the quadralink possibly problematical solution your needs used one for the last years personal system but fatal bug has crept into their more recent the bug only shows during heavy serial traffic but completely crashes the system macsbug can not reboot time hit the restart button told january that they were aware and working fixing the bug which described them since then they have not answered any faxes asking them for status the bug fix the has been great but for now have mine sidelined you are only going using baud less then you may have very infrequent problems sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadras vram question daniel salber salber imag writes have question regarding quadras vram have tried find info this but could not get precise answers one hand have quadra with monitor which capable bit color how much vram does have display millions colors monitor you need vram the the other hand have quadra with monitor which capable bit color only must have vram correct this the amount board vram that the comes with would like take vram simms for the and put them the that both machines have bit color capability possible and yes how many vram simms should take from the yes this possible technically you only need take out the vram simms but leaving the other two will not get you anything because the cannot really anything with vram only knows and from the documentation have the quadra must get vram have bit color that correct yes this correct you get putting vram simms into the vram simm slots the motherboard bonus question where vram simms hide from the documentation they seem behind the power supply really have take off the power supply access the vram simms yup you have take off the power supply only couple screws you should just make sure that everything disconnected from and watch out for static discharges
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi looking for cache card for iisi can spend max for what need cache with fpu socket and dual slot adapter least passe through connector can keep graphic card need your advice about the best card can buy how much performance increase should expect does the performance increase between the and cache worths the price difference and what the best price can get for such card really need spare each possible have ethernet card for the with fpu don think would work for the iisi but the fpu socketed you think can take the fpu out the card and put the empty fpu socket would work mhz not how much should pay for extra fpu sham tha seif lam yaghib ibaa oueichek oueichek imag imag jamal majd kutub lab genie informatique lgi kablak tareekh thulmaten imag inpg baadak staula ala shuhub felix viallet grenoble
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macs suck buy article ouop news cis umn edu horton molbio cbs umn edu robert horton writes tests suck post real message presumably erme maula testing the size limits his email account that erme pobox upenn edu for those who missed
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris video problem having also article qqf usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes from push media mit edu pushpinder singh subject centris video problem having also date sat apr gmt when the computer set for colors and certain operations are done particularly vertical scrolling through window horizontal white lines appear the monitor which generally but not always spare open windows these lines accummulate the operation continued window moved over the involved area the screen and then moved away the line disappear from that area the screen this problem not observed the monitor configured for colors inch apple monitor with colors used suspect bad video ram chip but cannot certain the problem has been apparent since day but has gotten worse etc has anyone not had these problems the given configurations that would help eliminate design flaw the explanation data point using centris with the apple monitor and not have these problems dch
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help with simm configuration rcs cwru edu robert sprecher writes can someone please help understand the current situation regarding simms sure can give shot have iisi which will probably keep for another years would like add more memory from know that will need faster simms which simms pin pin you need get the pin simms would the simms get today usable years with newer more powerful system you mean newer more powerful mac system then the answer apple has stated that all new macs will use the pin simms and longer use the pin simms hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why does apple give confusing message ubs carson washington edu university bookstore writes bunt student umn edu monthian buntan writes does anyone know why apple has ambiguous message for regarding fpu all mac price lists seen every has the message fpu optional know from what discussed this newsgroup that all have the fpu built except the configuration why would they unclear about this issue their price list think this mostly the fault the people who write the literature and price lists being confused themselves since there are two possible processor configurations and one the them doesn have fpu does seem option even though really isn planning buy the pretty soon but now getting confused with whether comes with fpu not well then allow end your confusion the only come with the base configuration you are not getting this configuration then you are getting fpu why say optional built good question have been wondering that since feb you get the centris with configuration you are getting mac with processor that has built math coprocessor support understanding that the optional fpu refers your option purchasing the centris without fpu one the other configurations with fpu this possible but option something that you are supposed able request when you want what apple has done given the buyer choice between configurations and not option apple does not offer upgrade from the non fpu system become fpu system and unclear whether the processor the non fpu system can replaced with supplied another vendor this not unclear all fact apple has included the roms those machines with code recognize the presence the full fpu and use thereby making the upgrade easy switching chips you pop the out and pop full apple did send memo out one point sating that the centris which only comes with non fpu processor cannot upgraded support fpu the pin configurations the two chips apparently not match you cannot swap one for another again according apple memo they did think would double check this has been stated countless times this newsgroup two the centris hardware designers that the and the full are pin compatible and that the can upgraded full hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris math coprocessor option david anthony guevara cup portal com writes sorry this faq don normally read comp sys mac hardware purchasing couple centris configured the systems follows eight ram ethernet vram math coprocessor option purchasing agent told about the math coprocessor option and sent the apple summary documentation prove ordered the coprocessor option but really not sure that needed thought the chip had math coprocessor built into has apple had math coprocessor chip architectured keep with the speed the chip the centris concerned that may have set hardware bottleneck apple has really confused people with this whole thing think answering this question for about the next year there option get fpu what you have choice cpus there the that does not have integrated fpu like the full and only present the base model the appleusa and there the full which you get when you order anything other than the base configuration therefore since you have ordered one the versions with board ethernet models you will not getting the but even you wanted have the you wouldn able order with ram board ethernet and not option also note people out there that have and thinking that there optional fpu the class chip cannot recognize external fpu there socket the motherboard for fpu chip and you cannot out and purchase fpu pds card something like that the only way get fpu these machines replace the with full and you have you will not need worry about heat sink you replace the with the full but you have you need have heat sink hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	tcp routing localtalk ethernet article qpn uinnjs stimpy css itd umich edu bchuang css itd umich edu ben chuang wrote here the story have network with macs localtalk one them has ethernet card and currently connected next don laugh got for the price mac iisi the next connected the internet over slip running baud modem currently can telnet from the mac ethernet the next and then telnet out again the rest the world what want know there some sort hardware that will route telnet sessions from the localtalk macs the next via the ethernet mac from what have heard air doesn the trick software solutions would good too but impression that there aren going any our immediate interest able get the next and telnet out again the slip connection doesn allow assign numbers machines everyone shares that number well what you need hardware router such etherroute tcp made compatable systems this will allow you connect your localtalk network macs your ethernet network next and ethernet mac will route tcp protocol between the two networks software routers are also available for less money but not sure they work with tcp paul
comp.sys.mac.hardware	full page screen working project for marketing class and like ask your help the assignment come with product and create marketing plan for technical issues are not terribly important this point well group plan market full page monitor for laptop computers would third party product installed authorized repair centers like newer technology palettebook screen the idea that the screen would fold such way that you would get twice the screen height normal screen remember technical issues aside fact adjusting the fold the screen and the monitor configuration you could have regular full height the screen would probably monochrome the motivation behind this that laptop computers seem very popular among business people business people also commonly use word processing and spreadsheet applications for which very convenient see large portion the document because the target users and applications color screens aren really neccessity could hopefully keep the cost between and now please don write this off completely ridiculous really need some constructive feedback you would please reply via email and let know you would consider buying full page laptop screen how much you would willing pay for any helpful commentaries the idea also you take this idea and make lot money off doubtful but who knows please send some thanks advance mike
comp.sys.mac.hardware	built video problems mac iisi dear mac friends seen the following problem three mac iisi machines all with ram installed simms the contents window are being calculated and updated lot strange horizontal lines are temporarily generated the screen the lines translate the top the screen and have slightly lower brightness than their surroundings they are few millimeters apart admit that they are vague but they can still distinguished clearly especially the environment the rest the room bit dark applications which produce this effect are the previewer directtex dvireader kaleidagraph fpu the machines use their built video and drive the old apple hires monochrome screen two monitors cable sets tried the effect independent the settings the following control panels memory adressing mode disk cache and monitors greys colors have you ever seen this effect too there solution thanks fred fred walsteijn internet walsteyn fys ruu institute for marine and atmospheric research fax utrecht university the netherlands phone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms where looking for meg pin simm for centris where the best place purchase one stock shipping warrenty and possible phone numbers that can order one soon possible thanks steven and hope that there intelligent life somewhere out space monty python cause there bugger all down here earth the meaning life steven medley email smedley erasure ecst csuchico edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship would really like get one the new cdrom drives for but local apple doesn know when they will available doesn even have part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive and when will available apple dealer suggested buy one the external drives but don want pay extra for case power supply not going use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	whither quickdraw performance across product line company has developed application for the mac that emulates chart recorder virtual pen traces scroll smoothly across the screen tested the application number computers discovered some surprising performance differences across products the scroll performance the iisi and lcii was better than the iifx this led investigate color quickdraw performance across the apple line the results the fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes the drumroll please lciii and the color classic ranks right there with the quadra line the centris line pales comparison does anybody know the differences these computers that explains the disparity graphics processor performance dave steele daves xetron com xetron corp crescentville road cincinnati ohio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi bought while ago cache card fpu from techworks was think that was the cheapest ever saw peter
comp.sys.mac.hardware	position erg keyboard apr informatik muenchen probulf informatik muenchen frank probul writes however when learned typing school some years ago was taught write with right hand this difference between danish and american typing what germany you usually use the left hand for the same sweden the ergonomic keyboard great but the palm rests not fix the keyboard they just sort rests against the table too bad when you have the keyboard your knee cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe you never hide the menu bar you might about and change the color the color the background but you never hide the menu bar tog
comp.sys.mac.hardware	built video problems mac iisi apr fys ruu walsteyn fys ruu fred walsteijn writes seen the following problem three mac iisi machines all with ram installed simms the contents window are being calculated and updated lot strange horizontal lines are temporarily generated the screen the lines translate the top the screen and have slightly lower brightness than their surroundings they are few millimeters apart admit that they are vague but they can still distinguished clearly especially the environment the rest the room bit dark applications which produce this effect are the previewer directtex dvireader kaleidagraph fpu another program which produces this effect spyglass transform while contouring big array thanks for any information about this problem fred walsteijn internet walsteyn fys ruu institute for marine and atmospheric research fax utrecht university the netherlands phone
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark nodine wrote article news udel edu johnston udel edu bill johnston writes article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark nodine writes don know about the specific problem mentioned your message but definitely had scsi problems between and venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge stuff deleted doubt this quadra specific problem had get rid venerable bernoulli last year with enough stuff deleted might fix the problem case the cartridges wouldn format mount partition for all know that the megadrives worked perfectly both mac plus and powerbook was for this reason assumed the problem had something with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked the problem occurred when ejected cartridge from drive would start popping dialog boxes saying this cartridge must formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was cartridge the drive mark the problem mentioned last known quadra scsi problem was heavily discussed last year and apple employee pointed out that there was one byte error the scsi driver routine for the quadra least the and system should not have that problem for most people the solution was get updated driver from the drive manufactor case mass microsystems wrote new driver which fixed the problem quadra all that occured early last year michael kluskens kluskens radar nrl navy mil opinions expressed are the author and not those his employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds nubus was iii nubus capable article morrow stanford edu mlr forsythe stanford edu mark rogowsky writes second wave makes nubus card cages that work the pds slots least three macs the iisi and centris they have not knowledge announced such device for the lcii but they could make one technologically the pds card that goes the cage simply needs the nubus controller circuitry present nubus macs why though does anyone care about this dgr has three pds adapter for the lcii they will soon have one for the lciii pds better than nubus for most people most applications granted there are more nubus cards but most applications that require nubus card like full motion video capture shouldn done lcii lciii anyway mark nubus much more robust system for system for installing multiple cards without configuration problems know that when was checking into expasion options for there were number pds video cards that would not work with certian dual slot cache adapters erik speckman
comp.sys.mac.hardware	imagewriter while back there was thread this group about the use the iwii europe countries with current the consensus the time was that the iwii would not work there will moving there this summer called apple make sure and they told today that the iwii bought the will definitely run current long step down converter employed current used the same info turns out can found the iwii manual the version but didn really trust that does anyone have any direct experience the contrary just wondering chris
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship article apr newsgate sps mot com rjacks austlcm sps mot com rodney jacks writes would really like get one the new cdrom drives for but local apple doesn know when they will available doesn even have part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive and when will available apple dealer suggested buy one the external drives but don want pay extra for case power supply not going use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com the external already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high they are pretty rare seen them listed for around local computer stores and the campus mac reseller also heard rumors that they are bundled with couple but can confirm sunny sunnyt dna bchs edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerating the macplus about ready take bold step into the around here accelerating our rather large collection stock macplus computers yes indeed difficult comprehend why anyone would want accelerate macplus but that another story suffuce say can get accelerators easier than new machines hey don make the rules anyway the purpose this post looking for info macplus acelerators far found some lit the novy accelerator and the micrmac multispeed accelartor both look acceptable but would like hear from anyone who has tried these also someone would recommend another accelerator for the macplus like hear about thanks for any time and effort you expend this karl
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra startup out monitor right there fix for this have quadra that will not finish startup unless there monitor connected this would problem but since running file server there need have monitor connected all the time horsefeathers shawn fitzgerald umcc computing club michigan chungkuo umcc umich edu whether you are quiet and alive quiet and dead makes difference cerebus
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ntsc and 
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ntsc and the mac question general about displaying ntsc through mac understand correctly the video spigot can display ntsc small window well capture the data quicktime format however want use larger window what are options perhaps misunderstood the video spigot review also not interested quicktime would merely like use mac television from time time have nice sony monitor and would like use second when wife watching sitcoms our regular perhaps some the video cards for the mac accept ntsc input have iisi and willing buy nubus adapter thanks advance for any help george micahels
comp.sys.mac.hardware	scsi ethernet converter for sale have strange piece equipment unload ether scsi interface apparently can plugged into scsi port and from there ethernet that way you save slot nifty well assume you people know more about judging the price tag new ask say anybody interested
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple cdrom freebies article quod menudo edu sunnyt coding bchs edu writes reseller also heard rumors that they are bundled with couple but can confirm sunny sunnyt dna bchs edu got two the first one ordered jan and received feb the second one ordered jan and just got april anyway they both come with misc cdroms things like intro nautilis sample kodak pictures from alice ocean story woman who treked across austrailia discs from apple games disc applications disc and titles disc haven checked most these out yet also some cinderella thing for kids disc mozart something others etc etc etc someone super interested make list the exact titles and post them they are all the category interesting but probably fairly useless was rumored that the earliest units shipped with some encyclocpedia may have but neither drives had that jeff adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hard drive problem have with meg which dates back april when originally purchased experienced the failure boot problem this was fixed soon after rom upgrade the hard drive lately similar problem has been occuring when the computer powered the light flashes few times and then given the disk boot from icon however upon turing the computer off and again the drive always boots just fine furthermore instead turning the power and off press the reboot button the same problem occurs but said turning the power off and always works this problem different from the boot problem that before often required several power off and ons get boot does anybody have any suggestions what the problem how can fixed wondering getting old and requires more time come speed now there pram scsi setting that allows tell the computer wait little longer before trying access the thanks altan stalker astalker nickel ucs indiana edu indiana university computer science dept
comp.sys.mac.hardware	buying advice does anyone have version which mac buy that later than longer have access the ziffnet mac accessed through compuserve check for myself which mac hypercard stack that assists decision making based budget features and main software used please let know you can help out download from compuserve should not cost much higher speed modem used stack compressed about thanks for any help dale carsona sfu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	recommend printer the market for laser printer used printers are fine non apple printers are fine but whatever printer get must fit the following required features postscript dpi emough memory download fonts the cheaper the better prefer under nice things anything over pages per minute scsi output for font disk smallish footprint don care about postscript level networking its just for and always will color know about freedom press but also heard that its painfully slow can tolerate about ppm but anything slower than that and not going consider the price savings worth curious hear people experience with tho also infinitely prefer laser over ink used use deskjets last job and wasn impressed with the quality laser bigot and the first admit using the printer layout pages book writing the page will include multiple fonts graphics scanned line art and maybe greyscale pictures not sure yet the quality doesn need spectacular but needs clear and readable printers been looking used laserwriters the plus the the ntr its understanding that only the ntr has scsi out for disk true personal laserwriter and ntr have access the apple employee discount work for one apple spinoffs can get these reasonably cheaply heard bad things about the comments leaning towards the personal ntr cause has nice small footprint laserwriter select hear doesn have postscript but haven seen anything for sure heard mumbles once about postscript upgrade used laserjets worked with the and iip another platform and they were painfully slow are they that bad the mac seen ads for epson laserprinter that running quite cheap any comments this printer hate the styling too many ouput trays but its decent printer consider thanks for any comments laura lemay lemay netcom com writer trifles shadows and blood
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem mac games article qsfak skc network ucsd edu doug book dpb sdchemw ucsd edu writes think have problem with the stereo sound output quadra but not totally sure because roomate has the same problem his powerbook any info experience anyopne has would greatly appreciated when hook quadra home stereo system the following types sounds mono far can tell all play fine through both speakers system beeps already provided ones such indigo and ones record armor alley spectre spaceward but the following games only play out the left channel lemmings out this world awesome game btw glider oids but still stereo system beeps play stereo through both speakers the one specifically referrring apocolyptic beginning which roommate downloaded from some ftp site sumex all the symptoms are the same rommates can run ootw because doesn have color both running system does anyone with lemmings the other three games mentioned above get sound out both speakers mac class quadra powerbook greater centris etc stereo machine used have mac and sort rememeber lemmings playing stereo that machine not just the left channel could mistaken though there were problem with the quad and wondering why the system beeps still play stereo there isn problem with our machines wonder why the games above are apparantly written support only one channel stereo when they could just use mono sounds the mono sound would least come out both speakers like spectre etc quadra and powerbook have the same roms knowledge maybe this rom problem though why wouldn system patch over this problem thanks for any help you can provide article apr kth jon wtte jwa hemul nada kth writes mac sound hardware diverse some macs play stereo and mix the output the for instance while others play stereo but only has the left channel for the speaker while some are truly mono like the developers know that stuff played the left channel guaranteed heard while the right channel isn some send data both some only send data the left channel the first preferrable course okay guess its time for quick explanation mac sound the original documentation for the sound hardware documents how make sound directly accessing hardware basically you jam values into all the even bytes from soundbase soundbase this was because how the mac and some later machines generated sound was scanning this block and aing every even byte the odd bytes went the floppy some machines when the mac and apple sound chip was invented was designed generate stereo sound was also designed compatible with had once documented storing bytes the even values soundbase meant want play mono sound and was emulated but apple had since retracted the documentation soundbase and decided not document the lowest layers sound generation apple never explained where stuff bytes you want make stereo sound enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games furthermore people who port from the ibm don want learn more apis has become popular for game writers write soundbase make sound since very easy since the mac apple has had many different kind sound output hardware and the only things they have common are that writing soundbase works some hardware mac iix iicx iici least writing soundbase gets you mono sound through both speakers some macs quadra least writing soundbase gets you mono sound the left channel only both are technically correct interpretations the original specification but one obviously preferable for asthetic reasons developers use the sound manager and think the sound driver mono sounds will typically come out through both channels regardless the underlying hardware possible specify you want generate left channel only but one does developers write sound base their games will only come out the left some games the other problem the original mac only producing left channel sound the internal speaker while the mixes both isn really related due the post generation amplification used the motherboards the different machines only affects true stereo sounds sounds which are actually mono will play the internal speaker matter what machine you have now more directly address the question the games you list lemmings out this world awesome game btw glider oids and also hellcats super tetris oxyd and many more these are just what tested cheat and write soundbase and are only left channel quadras other games you list armor alley spectre spaceward and also pga tour golf civilization and more these are again only from personal experience use the sound manager and work fine all machines the more the story developers don cheat really absolutely positively not allowed what about but going say anyway stop cheating sound really soon you will sorry even those without external speakers will disappointed with your sound future hardware the grace period about end the sound manager understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon use conclusion doug isn hardware problem least not bug jon isn choice developers whether they want send sound both channels they the right way taken care automatically you cheat there not way make work all hardware have fun disclaimer number don work sound here apple just pretty well informed don write with sound questions disclaimer number says above that wrote anything like the grace period about end then bug your news feed since catagorically not allowed say anything like that you know what mean disclaimer number don speak for apple just steve bollinger
comp.sys.mac.hardware	powerbook with math coprocessor really want buy powerbook and would like one that can run mathematica need coprocessor but can not afford who can possible put mcp the guy the bookstore says but didn think had too much clue please respond mail ross sbphy physics ucsb edu thanks advance richard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi article pebi zephyr aem umn edu pebi aem umn edu peter bidian writes bought while ago cache card fpu from techworks was think that was the cheapest ever saw last week mac place had the applied engineering quicksilver card cache one pds slot socket for fpu sale for without fpu regular price idea this still going but can get the phone anyone interested found their macuser jim burmeister relation mac place except satisfied customer jimb csd harris com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pds cards for the lciii are there any pds expansion cards out there that specifically take advantage the lciii bit data path and mhz clock speed they exist are they significantly faster than the lcii versions farul ghazali columbia university the city new york
comp.sys.mac.hardware	need modem selection help especially vocabulary recently ordered centris and need decide which modem buy pretty sure want get fax data modem that can run but worth primarily only conversing over compuserve some other link the internet but not sure those systems can supply with data another question have some the modem lingo out there understand baud rates but what does and bis mean could really use some suggestions what good modem for around would and why would good choice thanks for your time dave bell dbell coral bucknell edu those who forget the past are condemned live duncan macleod
comp.sys.mac.hardware	syquest mac article qsk usenet ins cwru edu rcs cwru edu robert sprecher writes possible via creative cable splicing whatever hook syquest removable drive mac there any difference with the guts the drive just cable differences thanks rob rob sprecher rcs cwru edu many companies package syquest drives for the mac already unless you are using one for the ibm world buy mac ready config
comp.sys.mac.hardware	trouble vga displays currently having trouble connecting true blue ibm model vga monitor the display bearly readable but all the details are seperated into yellow and red colors window will have two images one yellow and ghost image red the background also little greenish read some time ago before ever thought would hook mac vga screen about incompatability with some vga monitors due the sync green signal does this sound like could the same demon also read that there are both hardware putting diode the green signal solution and software solution this problem don the details does somebody have them the can mail post them checked all the faq for this and didn find anything about did miss somewhere this sure seems that would good thing have one thanks for any replys charles kuehmann northwestern university steel research group
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship article quod menudo edu sunnyt coding bchs edu wrote article apr newsgate sps mot com rjacks austlcm sps mot com rodney jacks writes would really like get one the new cdrom drives for but local apple doesn know when they will available doesn even have part number yet does anyone know what the part number for this drive and when will available apple dealer suggested buy one the external drives but don want pay extra for case power supply not going use rodney jacks rjacks austlcm sps mot com while there may not part number for the drive have seen part number for the bezel kit new front panel with the slot through which you insert the the document which got from the announcement our apple office states the drive kit and bezel kits are separate items and the bezel kit has srp fro the the external unit may better deal after all bob brickman robrick erenj com disclaimer the preceding represent personal opinions and not reflect the opinions policies practices employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	full page screen article mfohvgq wbme yado andrew cmu edu michael callihan andrew cmu edu writes working project for marketing class and like ask your help the assignment come with product and create marketing plan for technical issues are not terribly important this point not surprised learn that technical issues are not terribly important anyone working marketing plan wls
comp.sys.mac.hardware	centris problem the problem this after starting machine gives high pitched sound once the desktop also only does when the mouse menu not showing click the mouse the noise goes away for the amount time the mouse down also this problem only happens for about minutes please let know you know what this sounds like coming form the power supply please post here and email tjacobs bvsd edu thanks
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rom gosh wish people would read the postings that they are following article pmsv jtp wyvern wyvern com dashley wyvern wyvern com doug ashley writes seanmcd dal writes article wgwc pdl netcom com wgw netcom com william wright writes anyway was hoping someone knowledgeable about mac internals could set straight simply impossible for mac print grayscale could use the grayscale features believe you need mac equipped with colour quickdraw was told this somewhere other but think you will find that the mac can print grayscale images loaded with the proper software however the mac cannot display grayscale the original poster wright posted item saying that had bought new wizz bang laser printer from apple select think which can print grayscale then said that cannot print grayscale from his computer and also that all the experts has dealt with agree that not possible this the one major bugbear about doing party upgrade compared apple upgrade you will never able run color quickdraw color quickdraw that controls color and grayscale ses can print some colour this because quickdraw the original non colour version has the right hooks for eight colours some you will remember the scsigraph solution getting colour screen for your think that gave you sixteen colours dithering something there reason that apple couldn release software patches for older computers there are lots mac pluses classics and ses that have been upgraded and processors which should perfectly able deal with color quickdraw but they wont and parties are having difficult time duplicating the mac roms nutek just one caveat would have thought that you were printing postscript grayscale image onto postscript grayscale printer that you would able whatever mac you were using and pretty sure that the select not postscript printer correct wrong phil ryan melbourne australia
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra case source wanted hello all anyone knows place get the case hold the power supply and motherboard quadra please let know have tried some mail order places and some local stores both groups would prefer that part with over get just the case eyes this seems about much any comments currently own the guts please email post this group info thanks advance andy
comp.sys.mac.hardware	accelerating the macplus also someone would recommend another accelerator for the macplus like hear about thanks for any time and effort you expend this karl try looking the brainstorm accelerator for the plus believe the best solution because the performance and price why spend upgrading computer that only worth the brainstorm accelerator around speeds the internal clock speed mhz that may not seem like much but also speeds scsi transfers think that feature unique brainstorm check out david lau lau aerospace aero org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm dram can anyone tell what the difference between dram chip and simm need the former think add memory laserwriter someone offering sell simms removed from but have feeling this may not the correct form memory the sockets the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with recall pins arranged two rows believe not never actually seen simm help appreciated arthur greene internet arthur greene fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	voice messaging you macinators who have used these voice messaging fax data modems have question first what brand names you recommend mostly interested the voice messaging and fax part the voice part reliable and understandable the sellers claim approximately how much hard drive space does average day callers take they speak for one minute any feed back would appreciated company looking buying one two hey may buy one myself too thanks advance don don new dnew edu another great mind university denver ruined chemistry department denver higher education
comp.sys.mac.hardware	clock poll final call fair number brave souls who upgraded their clock oscillator have shared their experiences for this poll please send brief message detailing your experiences with the procedure top speed attained cpu rated speed add cards and adapters heat sinks hour usage per day floppy disk functionality with and floppies are especially requested will summarizing the next two days please add the network knowledge base you have done the clock upgrade and haven answered this poll thanks guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	buying high speed everything modem just quick summary recent findings high speed modems top three contenders seem paradyne zyxel and robotics zyxel has the biggest cult following and can had for under but ignored because need something with mac software which will work without any tweaking the dataport earns nearly unanimous praises for reliability they are backordered the moment probably because the special price effect until may its fax capabilities are worse than that the other two modems warning ads say that the modem comes with mac kit cables all and has lifetime warranty this applies only when you order directly from paradyne called elektek one the distributors and they wanted charge for cable and gave only year warranty usr sportster for the mac also highly but not highly recommended only from clubmac and you are willing roll your own cable and don care about the faxstf software you can get the generic model from outlets for all this assuming that you don have rich uncle and can afford motorola codex ended ordering the dataport see how works two weeks eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu behr ilstu bitnet please avoid
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem mac games thanks steve for your helpful and informative comments mac stereo sound too bad some developers aren addressing the problem this did make trusty old mac superior the quadra replaced with one way though thanks doug
comp.sys.mac.hardware	jump starting mac apple dealerships once had kits replace the soldered batteries with battery holder real easy install but does require some soldering
comp.sys.mac.hardware	whither quickdraw performance across product line daves daves xetron com dave steele writes the fastest quickdraw color performing computer apple makes the drumroll please lciii and the color classic ranks right there with the quadra line the centris line pales comparison does anybody know the differences these computers that explains the disparity graphics processor performance think you are suffering from some alignment color table whatever problems color classic fast quadra rendering screen what screen card you use does course matter much built video almost always faster than nubus you measured scroll entire screen where the color classic had vram screen bit color and the quadra had bit screen nubus cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe this sig less than lines improve the usenet ratio
comp.sys.mac.hardware	eight simms friend mine has eight simms for sale for each best offer since techworks sells these puppies for you may want contact him directly steve epstein days evenings thanks bruce from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor for lciii jeff have answers both your questions first recommend the sony cpd monitor trinitron vga monitor but designed specifically for use with the works only with macs with specific video capabilities which means only the and anything after the all takes mac vga cable recommend one from james engineering which about these cost about compared the much higher prices comparable monitors because they are not multisynch have used one for half year and love second have used syex and found them decent had backorder supra modem which cancelled they were helpful explaining the reasons why there were delays and they had supra number ready for the only complaint was that they did not always return calls have been told that the cpd selling for from think syex little more but don know david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	vram for sale lcii have vram chip for sale worked fine lcii and will give colors size screen asking cover postage speaking which does anyone know what the best way send chip have plastic antistatic sleeve but what the best way send envelope first class all info appreciated bill spaceman lee box yale station new haven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare the real question here opinion what motorola processors running system mac are comparable what intel processors running windows recall there being conversation here that running windows benchmarks about the same speed mhz system don know that true but would love hear anyone has any technical data this david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac numbers here list numbers have compiled from other sources anybody got anything add formatted for alpha and looks fine for don complain doesn look good you adobe fax info aldus alladin altsys apda apple prog dev assoc apple computer apple customer non tech assistance aps alliance peripheral sys asd softwae fax berkeley systems cayman systems software claris claris software aris compatible systems computer associates connectix dataviz dayna deltapoint deneba mac fifth generation greatwave icom simulations macavenue macconnection macland macromind mac place macwarehouse microcom microsoft educational general sales and services then punch technical assistance university shiva silicon beach symantec the mac zone chip merchant clearpoint computers clubmac clu bmac delta research labs diamond dynamic electronics etc global village telecom mac adb modems lifetime memory llb macproducts usa mac disk macproducts mac usa megabyte memory products memory international memory plus plus micro electronic tech newer technology peripheral outlet psi quadmation shecom computers sii micros south coast electronics stratum technologies technology works texas macstuf mac stuf third wave computing third wave turbo technologies directory assistance for numbers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how reach micron does anyone know how reach micron interested getting some specifics about what types monitors work with their micron xceed card for the either mail phone number would prefered you have the answers questions appreciate reply thanks julia hsieh opinions are not intended reflect hsieh ipld hac com those hughes aircraft company
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can remove the under daughterboard upgrade the subject says what would like here are the details have with the macrescue upgrade board that makes the equivalent plus system and macenvy both identify such the macrescue board clips onto the the also has itself periodically have remove the clip not entirely easy thing and clean the legs the larry pina book asserts that this occasionally problem with snap upgrades the legs will oxidize causing unusual system errors well that would like something permanent and think would fairly easy put socket where the currently and modify the macrescue board plug what not sure whether will work seems that the two aren acting independently removing one shouldn have any effect the performance mac about sure will someone provide the extra erik erik cheshire oxy edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	syquest remember someone mention about meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this interested the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost the drive itself and how they compare the bernoulli
comp.sys.mac.hardware	word printing iig have user that has word and using symbols such and other mathematic sysmbols plus doing fractions etc the document shows the screen with problems looks fine when she tries print iig the changes upside down caret and several other symbols change double quotes bottom character plus some little circles appear between words the fractions instead spaces this happens iig laser printer tried serveral macs and two different iig prints fine and ntx laser printers what wrong thanks for any help advance gary gary weis university computer center hal greer boulevard huntington west virginia phone fax internet gary marshall wvnet edu bitnet gary marshall ucc net gary
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra sound the quadra goes thru extensive initalize routines its hardware read pram obtains all info from last session including the volume setting and then executes the sound procedure for the startup sound and wait the scsi controller respond the boot code the dram produces error registers cannot read from device the device corrupts that address data control paths then possible the firmware branchs another sound routine that produces the sad mac sound this general breifing the start procedure typical mac you cannot control the volume the quadra even boot then feel there something incorrect with the logic board quadra does not show the problems you are having steve
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship sunnyt coding bchs edu writes the external already shipping and has been shipping for quite awhile now demand for the units are high they are pretty rare got drive since also heard rumors that they are bundled with couple but can confirm indeed cds are bundled with you usually get nine cds with demos applications games photos etc have compiled list these and posted alt cdrom will post updated version this list rsn sven
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding vram quadra want from vram quadra how many simms need buy the current soldered the board need take out the current vram before add more thanks wesley stuart jones wesley stuart jones jonesw res wes mot com wstuartj ecn purdue edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help error power mac plus getting sad mac icon black screen with the error code could someone please tell what wrong memory thanks lot appreciate infinitely nestor michelena
comp.sys.mac.hardware	questions well folks mac plus finally gave the ghost this weekend after starting life way back sooo the market for new machine bit sooner than intended looking into picking powerbook maybe and have bunch questions that hopefully somebody can answer does anybody know any dirt when the next round powerbook introductions are expected heard the was supposed make appearence this summer but haven heard anymore and since don have access macleak was wondering anybody out there had more info has anybody heard rumors about price drops the powerbook line like the ones the duo just went through recently what the impression the display the could probably swing got the disk rather than the but don really have feel for how much better the display yea looks great the store but that all wow really that good could solicit some opinions people who use the and day day its worth taking the disk size and money hit get the active display realize this real subjective question but only played around with the machines computer store breifly and figured the opinions somebody who actually uses the machine daily might prove helpful how well does hellcats perform thanks bunch advance for any info you could email post summary news reading time premium with finals just around the corner tom willis twillis ecn purdue edu purdue electrical engineering convictions are more dangerous enemies truth than lies nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems article katinka fenk wau katinka van der linden writes would like more info this anybody has our exabyte tapedrive has never been working from the quadra have been trying since september replaced cabling inits don know what all all the industry experts phoned the tapedrive dealer our apple dealer the software dealer all say our fault they don know the last thing they said was that needed special quadra scsi terminator anybody know more thanks article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark nodine wrote article news udel edu johnston udel edu bill johnston writes article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark nodine writes don know about the specific problem mentioned your message but definitely had scsi problems between and venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives solution was get silverlining none the loops that involved blind writes worked the drives fact the only loop that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means doubt this quadra specific problem had get rid venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased each make the whole thing worth more than whole computer the tech support guys ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem case the cartridges wouldn format mount partition for all know that the megadrives worked perfectly both mac plus and powerbook was for this reason assumed the problem had something with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked the problem occurred when ejected cartridge from drive would start popping dialog boxes saying this cartridge must formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was cartridge the drive mark have been using the pli sony drive and now sharp color scanner using standard scsi cables and standard terminator problems you were using iifx that might another story make sure there only one terminator the cabling and must the end some boxes have internal terminators some can switched out and others are socketted these count the box with internal terminations cannot put the end terminate the cabling they have disabled switched out pulled out their sockets you have boxes with internal terminations the terminations one box has disabled etc sure that this has been covered the experts experience with scsi boxes that connect the mac indicates that they must have some software package for the mac talk them pli drive and sharp scanner has one for each good luck art beattie only speak for myself
comp.sys.mac.hardware	macplus home brew acceler question all this talk about changing the clock speed the makes ask replaced the mhz plus with mhz with mhz clock occilater its own not shared the rest the mac just the new mhz would mac work and would work would you think there where any problems with sound vidio scsi seems like simple solution keepa dead slow mechine live little longer this would not work any idears how make work thanks alex arp ritvax isc rit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	driver have old jasmine drive which cannot use with new system understanding that have upsate the driver with more modern one order gain compatability with system does anyone know inexpensive program this have seen formatters for buit have idea they will work have another ancient device this one tape drive for which the back utility freezes the system try use the drive jasmine direct tape bought used for tapes techmar mechanism essentially have the same question above anyone know inexpensive beckup utility can use with system all help and advice appriciated
comp.sys.mac.hardware	calling all mac gurus question for those familiar with quadra vram put vram simms quadra the slots closest the ram simm slots and got results whatsoever have been told that the built video should support least bit and maybe bit color macintosh color display however the monitors control panel still lists bit colors the highest possible does make any difference which slots you put the simms you have something activate them you have something the monitors control panel btw running system with megs ram charles cox computer engineering case western reserve university cpc cwru edu cox snowhite eeap cwru edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple mini docks available article rahul net jonathan mecca epri com writes deguzman deguzman after math uiuc edu wrote boss considering the purchase powerbook duo leaning towards because the math coprocessor for mathematica but would get duo could find mini dock with coprocessor have any third parties announced such beast believe that machines might produce something this nature yes machines makes two mini docks the powerlink presente and the powerlink desknet the presenter offers variety video out options including ntsc rgb and svga also has sound out floppy drive port and power port unfortunately scsi port and blocks the serial port the desknet has the standard ports plus built ethernet alas none these have fpu the future rasterops putting out mini dock but the name escapes now supposed support bit color and quadra comparable video speed idea has fpu hope this helps beth corbo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	syquest article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu anthony kim writes remember someone mention about meg syquest has anyone else heard anything about this interested the cost per megabyte and the approximate cost the drive itself and how they compare the bernoulli think you must talking about the syquest code named mesa believe winchester technology drive pretty much like the other syquest drives terms how works according the latest macleak the drive has access time sustained throughput these figures are from memory they could slightly off but they give you idea performance nonetheless the drive was originally released for the and just recently was released for the mac world don ask what the differences are and through they are currently limited supply according syquest rep they are the process ramping for mass production have already seen them advertised number manufacturers macleak including pli massmicro clubmac and macwarehouse poweruser the pli and massmicro units are priced just around the lesser name brands are going for around for external drive cartridges which hold sell for about each these prices the drives and cartridges are cheaper and better performing than the drives cost per megabyte compares favorably with other cartridge drives and bernoulli drives but for large amounts data optical still cheaper and more reliable personally excited the new drive and look forward getting hands one chris wand egotism the anesthetic that dulls the pain stupidity frank leahy
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship interestingly enough the cdrom that came with quadra has only disks system install kodak photo sampler alice ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles has anyone else noticed that they got less than everyone seems getting with the external what really feel missed out what supposed fantastic games demo disk have heard that people have gotten disks with their drive assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom any comments and experiences should call apple complain derek thewho plume mit edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ntsc and the mac stuff deleted also not interested quicktime would merely like use mac television from time time have nice sony monitor and would like use second when wife watching sitcoms our regular other stuff deleted wouldn cheaper just buy little fourteen inch colour just curious george micahels jeff scott montreal que canada scott silverbullet cam org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac ibm info version send follow ups comp sys mac advocacy sorry about the header but the pnews here does not let one easily change the headers and gave after year trying this sheet also available ftp sumex aim stanford edu the info mac report mac ibm compare txt mac ibm info version the reason for this general data sheet consolidate and condense the information out there that people both camps can clear and accurate about what they are saying about their machines since computer technology always changing there are always going points which the sheet will lacking incorrect information please just don say the sheet incomplete incorrect but also give clear and concise information make the needed corrections all prices are dollars keep this data sheet organized please provide possible article citations for the information provided corrected and keep the opinions minimum this general data sheet keep the info provided simple can understand what being talked about and can explain others finally keep the information relevant the section corrected for example code rom software contained hardware more the but supported disk software data for the hardware section please thank you note for proper reading off line this document should point monaco special thanks andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu chihuahua charlie andrew frip tek com andrew klossner bell peter yale edu peter bell bcoleman hayes com bill coleman andrew cmu edu carl jabido jwa nada kth jon wtte ephraim think com ephraim vishniac andrew cmu edu faisal nameer jawdat gsidler cafe eecs nwu edu gabriel sidler julian deepthnk kiwi gen julian harris erick krueger umich edu krueger engin umich edu matt wardsgi med yale edu matt healy mark bilpin mark allerton jokim jarthur claremont edu john kim mem jhufos pha jhu edu mel martinez nan matt ksu ksu edu nan zou pwagner oracle com fuller iastate edu strobl gmd wolfgang strobl jkirvin pafosu mil phill ichips intel com shaikha duvm ocs drexel edu sxjcb orca alaska edu jay beavers lewis kawecki novell com lamont catfish rtsg mot com bradley lamont cerro mbcl rutgers edu cerro joseph mpark utmem utmem edu mel park logullo applelink apple com jeff logullo zrai hou amoco com robert irlbeck and mikew apple com for providing some the information that made this list possible contents cpus hardware monitor support expansion operating system number crunching networking printing the cpus note only showing motorola intel cpus used mac and most ibm clone machines for example since apple never used the motorola and the mac these chips are not listed years only appear with dead cpus and indicate first last year used cpu cache note both ibm and mac use caches external the cpus these external caches increase the speed the cpu but are not part most the present macs there are external caches built while with ibm they are optional though machines are generally sold with them installed since there are many different external caches cpu mac and ibm scsi video disk and static ram mac each having different effect cpu performance and they are machine static ram cache iici iifx and iivx seller cache card installed some iicis expansion iici cache cards dependent have decided leave them out the list note alu industry facto standard for cpu bit classification ibm alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes none none segmenting none protected mode none mmu bit protected mode one fpu one fpu one doubled internal clock rate being demoed mhz mhz and mhz planned pentium code cisc chip with risc like data features issue superscalar write back bit fpu path pipelining speed specint specfp chip with bit internal bit external architecture and chips can address maximum ram low power with built power management used mainly laptops slc ibm with chip cache added john kim far john kim knows only used ibm models slc neither two chips that have this name have fpu cyrix basically socket with cache and improved integer math speed ibm equivalent the except has chip cache for chip runs mhz rest machine runs mhz week mag the latest line cisc chips mag samples released march but machines will not announced until least may week cpu systems and mag mac alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes none limit code parallel processing two mmu burst mode two fpu two mmu fpu pipelining doubled internal clock rate development discontinued favor branch better fpu target superscaler pipelining cache line bursts equivalent capabilities speeds pentium includes data and instruction code caches the have built caches for both mac designs created limit the has clocks internal processor clock pclk that freq external bus clock bclk which the one used rate the chips bradley lamont motorola data book some compilers produce programs sensitive the pclk and they act the was clock doubler chip but this very compiler and program dependent compliers maybe written allow programs take consitant advantage the pclk the future now studies such one byte article which showed and roughly are very dependent the machine and programs tested and such are not representative general performance motorola claims week the powerpcs are both ibm and mac machines have listed them separately eliminate redundancy they are motorola cpu risc chips powerpc alu registers external cpu features cpu bus address cache notes int speed specint combined specfp low power for desktop portable systems out end high performance for high end machines out int out mid combined week mag select venders were sent sample chips motorola week and some nubus boards containing early samples powerpc have been given apple list developers week macweek mhz mhz week systems with versions out mid week cpus comparison list general rule thumb motorola chips are faster than intel chips the same frequency but intel has chips higher frequencies than motorola this evens out the macintosh bible supports the comparisons between intel and motorola chips for the and above bit bit chip data path address lines data address registers the limit the macs brings down the and lower chips otherwise would compare the hardware segmenting bit alu and these chips come have usable built mmu unlike their successors the hardware segmenting protected mode used and windows the use the hardware segmenting and their bit nature put the between the and features and the bit data path strenghthens the comparison two bit chips with mmus and protected memory present the only mac use the protected memory feature for apps system uses this feature protect ram disk created the memory control panel but this supported only powerbooks and quadras the color classic and lcii bit hardware data paths makes the them comparative sxs same and without the fpu used low cost solution for people who not need the fpu only with programs sensitive pclk pipelining does the behave like fpu two bit microprocessors with built fpu mmu internal cache which implemented two caches the and one the only with programs sensitive pclk pipelining does the behave like pentium both are planned superscalar but both have heat problems these chips may flounder against the cheaper week mag earlier released week macweek week less leat producing degrees for pentium mag and partly ported powerpc chips powerpc powerpc this cpu line planned run programs from dos windows and mac top poweropen unix and later pink taligent using emulators necessary the oses themselves shell how softpc does dos hardware effort remove the reconfiguring the system almost every time you add something requirement for add cards drivers video and operating systems the ibm world intel microsoft and other hardware and software developers are working out plug and play standards week color support display mac mhz pixel clock standard all present macs support the use bit color through bit color quickdraw rom bit color quickdraw allows almost transparent capability display and edit bit images bit color and retain all the colors bit color where and independently are regardless monitor resolution dpi color dpi palettebook monitor type including autosynchronous vga mcga and svga monitors with ranges including vertically and khz horizontally and only hardware video adaptor macuser aug older machines that supported color iix and iicx had only bit color rom and needed software patch use bit color macuser special keep costs down and speed most macs have only bit display capability built but most those can expanded display bit color presently quickdraw optimized for dpi display quickdraw will change this addition quickdraw allows macs with nubus slot more then one monitor used any combination from two monitors showing the same thing multiple monitors acting one large large monitor with any degree overlap the pictures vram video ram standard for present non powerbook mac handling built video from bit color palette vram provided runs bit color display expandable bit color bit display sound output standard all macs since the stereo sound became standard with the ibm even though pcs have rom bios definitions how the operating system interacts with the video hardware nan zou the use drivers bypassing bios video hareware inconsitancies see super vga below and nonstanderzation clone bios have left resolution video display hardware and program interaction the and video hardware question faisal nameer jawdat addition ibm and clone makers never bothered provide standard hardware mechanism for software determine what display mode actually present matt healy nor standardized screen drawing toolbox like mac result the must very well written detect some modes especially with some third party cards use them consitantly present things are dependent the interaction the program print driver and monitor card that editing bit pictures regardless color mode and monitor type card combination one can the mac impossible with ibm for example one cannot edit bit color picture done with svga monitor with vga bit color palette and dos and still have all the colors one started out with later ibm machines will have integrated graphics accelerators faster processors and modular upgradeability and may have built sound cards rom and ethernet week mda monocrome display adapter original character mapped video mode graphics text cga color graphics array colors color palette bad for the eyes ega enhanced graphics array colors from color palette and some lower res some versions could run colors bearable the eyes vga video graphics array colors colors and some others these two are the most commonly used all modes have clut from bit ibm bit mac color palette mhz pixel clock mel martinez monitors use analog input incompatible with ttl signals from ega cga etc mcga multi color graphics array subset vga that provides all the features mda cga but lacks some ega and vga modes like vga dictionary computer terms dct common the initial implementation from ibm and some models svga super vga this not standard the way the others were but instead was catch all category for group video cards such with each manufacturer using their own implementation scheme svga was chaos with people debating what svga and what not effort make svga more standard vesa was established and used the newer units but things are still mess video either today resolution and and colors are common newer ones since have the sierra hicolor ramdac giving bit colors some the very newer ones can bits per pixel usually speedwise too much variation some very slow western digital paradise based for example some very fast based for example some are like tseng very popular chipset some limiting factors overcome mhz bus linear address mapping were mhz isa bus architecture where the cpu looks the card through window etc other non svga standards ibm own standard interlacing graphics accelerator with graphics functions like linedraw polygon fill etc hardware some clone implementations from ati are the fastest video available today though some clone models not have interlacing tms high end graphics processors usually some bit speeds vector oriented graphics like cad xga extended graphics array newer and faster than only available for mca bus based clones are coming out soon emulates vga ega and cga dct max resolution same also some bpp modes xga accelerates graphics functions times faster than standard vga windows and including line draws bit and pixel block transfers area fills masking and addressing has intelligent way detect and exist with other xga cards multiple desktops like the mac may not far away since this architecture its resolution and color depth isn fixed ibm implements only bit color while other companies can have bit color through ibm technical licenses refresh rates ensures flicker free rock solid images reduce visual discomfort and vga compatible some monitor types usable mac see mac section above for specific details expansion both mac ibm scsi only external device expansion interface common both mac and ibm allows the use any device hard drive printer scanner nubus card expansion mac plus only some monitors and rom main problem there are lot external devices which are internal terminated which causes problems for more then two devises off the scsi port scsi chain supposed terminated only the begining and the end any other set causes problems for either mac ibm scsi devices per scsi controller bit asynchronous ave and synchronous max transfers difference due scsi software drivers fast scsi misname for bit scsi scsi mode see scsi for details scsi devices per scsi controller scsi mode scsi fully scsi compliant and bit scsi tends implemented very fast scsi since does not require the different controller interfaces hardware and software that and bit scsi transfer speeds are with burst bit with burst bit and with burst bit wide and fast since bit scsi can use scsi software drivers and hardware bit scsi speeds and such limited devices sometimes mistakenly called fast scsi bit fast scsi requires scsi software driver and scsi electronics but can still use the scsi ports wide bit and bit scsi require different scsi port electronics and software driver from scsi which makes them more expensive than other scsi interfaces mac scsi asynchronous scsi built standard since the plus even though apple developed some specifications for scsi controlers the scsi manager needs rewritten take full advantage the features both scsi interfaces result present scsi macs use bit scsi fast asynchronous scsi presently quadras are the only macs with scsi controller chip built digital review oct though they lack some other parts the hardware like the wide scsi port interface since other macs require nubus card use scsi older nubus macs had bottleneck due the speed the nubus and cpu rumor some cyclone macs june will come with wide fast scsi port standard and have rewritten scsi manager ibm scsi scsi not too wide spread yet generally not bundled with systems except add eisa and vesa local bus adapters avalable like the mac bit scsi used very fast scsi most controllers out there unlike the mac ibm has exact scsi controller specifications which results added incompatibilities for scsi mac memory expansion with few exceptions the mac has used non parity pin bit simm memory expansion since the plus while pin bit parity simms could used these macs only special iicis could make use the parity feature convension both simm types are called pin simms the iifx used pin parity simms the iii and all use new pin simm that accessable bits time and used ibms the mac does complete memory check startup writing reading every memory location something seriously wrong with simm the mac will not boot and give sound chord indicating what the problem since macs made before feb managed memory baced data path simms had installed pairs bit sets bit the centris and quadra eliminate this with new memory management setup that allows memory upgraded one simm time the simms are the same size are used then the memory interleaved across the two simms resulting performance boost ram access macworld apr printers adbs and modems built interfaces standard monitor interface and sound input built most present macs pds available all present non powerbook macs bit portable classic line and bit operates cpu mhz maximum through put data path bytes cpu mhz mhz mhz standardized with the and bus designs with adapter one nubus card can used iisi and problem some cards have timing dependency which slows through put down nubus mac bit mhz bus clock transaction bus cycle ratio and contiguous hand shake transactions theoretical peak built all modular macs except the series and performa the could adapted use this and there was even mac plus scsi nubus supports every possible expansion from cpu ethernet dma nubus nubus mac back compatable mhz bus clock avg throughput burst mode future card designs will instead the old quickring peer peer bus used parallel with nubus apple vlbus architecture identical that vlbus byte burst mode byte development cpu expansion handled either through the pds the nubus unlike pds nubus cpu cards example radius rocket allow use multiple processors the same time this like having two more macs the same box able dual task joinly process depending the card software involved each nubus card needs its own memory but most nubus cards this type come with ram simms the card standard ibm memory expansion parity simms non parity simms some newer models mac like simm memory check dozen different types memory boards interfaces limited hard drives design lack development mfm modified frequency modulation rll run length limited only used with smaller hard drives ide integrated device electronics asynchronous max and synchronous max transfer currently the most common standard and mainly used for medium sized drives can have more than one hard drive esdi enhanced small device interface throughput generally considered better interface than scsi many ways but not common enough for practical consideration outside hard drives device choices are very limited compared scsi bus interfaces new plug and play isa and eisa compatable cards may have problems working with old cards infoworld week vaporware isa bit interfaces common has bit data path limit which produces limit for which there are software workarounds mag byte uses edge triggered interrupts can share them hence comes the irq conflict limited busmastering capabilities some cards aren bandwidth limited com ports lpt ports game ports midi card etc while others are video and disk controllers dominant factor but showing its age most isa motherboard designs are bit world feb mca micro channel ibm and bit bus allows use more than one cpu computer dct and anything can talk anything fast the two components involved can handle never took off because was incompatible with isa and eisa planned bus interface ibm powerpc carl jabido eisa nubus mac closest mac equivalent bit mhz burst mode also has the ability self configure cards like mca and allows multiple bus masters sharable interrupt and dma channels and multiple cpu use vesa local bus vlb sometimes mistakenly refereed pds local bus standard runs cpu clock rate burst modes bit bit byte limited three slots but allows bus mastering and will coexist with either isa eisa consitered ideal for video and disk dell has filled claim that this violates one their patents mel martinez quickring apple faster burst version vlb architecture byte might show some ibm and powerpc machines byte development pci intel version local bus that intended totally replace isa eisa mca development oses assumes full installation print drivers fonts multifinder etc and multiple application use mac and hardware commands have been put into rom this allows apple control its machine putting key hooks for the mac quickdraw menu commands print mouse scsi sound drivers etc rom which require clone makers use the rom chip read rom disks which requires access the proper mac since different macs have slightly different rom chips plus classic for example with key hooks for the support interface rom programers not have worry much whether the disk has the necessary hardware commands that those commands are consitant and therefore can write smaller programs this also allows apple greater control over hardware software standards and that the disk can smaller and with some the tookbox command code rom with lower ram requirements then totally disk based macs use masked rom which fast dram jon wtte single program usage base requirements and floppy cooperatively multitasking base requirements and floppy features gui cooperative multitasker multifinder standard program interface standard stereo sound support snd network receiving part appleshare software bundled with the has ram barrier and bit some third party products allow virtual memory long real ram below with print drivers system for some macs that require system base requirements hard drive and facto standard run all features well hard drive and lowest present non portable mac configuration using this everything system disks hard disk space this has features plus program linking within and between computers iac built server capabilities filesharing can used older oses using appleshare client software and can accessed macs max more speed practical iac requires virtual memory machines with mmu times real ram for least noticeable iisi speed degradation drag and drop quicktime built truetype support supports sound input aiff and snd formats for most present machines can access true ram and virtual memory and both and bit use real ram beyond must bit mode and older machines requires the mode extension apple last free with worldscript support speedier and less ram usage than dot macweek week run bit mode older machines requires the mode bit enabler extension marks the start apple saling its mac instead allowing free upgrades bundled with new machines for upgrades otherwise the installer has bug that when upgrading may keep some old system fonts from the previous system inside the system file this can eat any ram benefits and cause other problems apple itself recommends removing all fonts from the system file unix needs ram suggested hard drive and equivalent run this bit preemptive multitasking large due being unix and needing translators between and the mac roms price note sound output was supported oses many formats including the following snd wave asnd fssd qssn smsd soun and dcfl the sound manager was optimized for the sound standards snd and aiff which causes some playback problems for the old formats though most still play ibm machiness have little gui code data and hooks present hardware for programmers work with most the coding must provided the since hard disks were slow the disk code read into ram addition what little rom code there also read into ram process called shadow rom this results faster implementation since ram faster then proms eproms having most the code disk has the advantage being able better optimize the code given certain piece collection hardware which harder with rom based system due the patches needed addition reduces the need for and size patches major revision the hardware support needed side note the ftc charged that microsoft formed trust not providing all feature documentation for its oses developers outside and designing its windows and dos apps fail under undocumented windows and there deliberate code windows beta which causes the install abort boot manager present gregory hicks info ibmpc digest due conflict intrest one member the vote the ftc judicial council for action against microsoft was tie which resulted action rumors the ftc will presue the matter likely the point choosing new member whole new council addition the government has turned down microsoft copyright windows which would allow charge fee for developers using their hooks week microsoft oses dos has barrier with its own memory manager barrier with third party memory managers this bit requires that each program must provide its own print drivers and bit programs need dos protected mode interface dpmi compliant and running bit protected mode break these barriers contains the gui shell present dos dos dos with the added features built file compresion disk defragmenter debugger for the config sys file needs module for networking cost through after that byte april dos bit dos development week window runs top dos breaks and barriers but still has deal with dos file structure base requirements floppy and run well hard drive and fast display adapter bit has the equivalent mac called windows gdi graphics device interface this does not have consistent application interface like early mac programs nor very large program base compared dos and still tends slow the machine down info ibmpc digest with speed more dependent the display adapter then the cpu bill coleman window programs tend disk and memory hogs compared their dos counterparts byte april window faster version window with better memory managment base requirements hard drive and run well hard drive apple plans release its print drivers for this week windows for workgroups run well ram and world feb intermediary between win and windows basically windows with built peer peer networking support windows beta release takes about disk space including the swap file and ram betas are notorious for ram usage especially the interaction between debuging code and program compliers hence the reports requirements released version supposed need ram but gates himself now recommends ram week this bit has protected mode multitasking multithreading symmetric multiprocessing recoverable file system and bit gdi has built networking that osf dce compliant and can handle ram even though some people see july release date infoworld nov rumor that the final version will not available before oct infoworld may july vaporware quarter week windows upgrades will otherwise week other oses dos ibm version dos runs windows much faster then dos due faster file and video handling infoworld feb dos same dos with some extras like built data compression and memory management enhancements still has barrier later version novell dos this may use version the mac finder and apple file management system week infoworld dec unix like features and unix like requirements ram uses hard drive and cpu this bit multithreaded multitasking can address ram but has use fast swap file use more than ram isa systems using dma direct memory access ibm plans use taligent oops future versions this infoworld oct aix ibm unix system planned subset poweropen and taligent nextstep gui unix provide next features ibm machines beta out final version out may solaris for sunsoft port bit with symmetric multiprocessing and multithreading built networking capabilities with tools allow remote configuring and adminstration features and communication package client users server users server developer kits software hardware mac working name star trek apple had system running off intel chips and looking making version available for ibm computerworld nov macweek present this planned run top novell dos require equivalent run and that apps will need recompiled macweek viewed novell answer windows the complexity hardware set ups one reason for slow progress this seems apple ibm way leading the powerpc line out late early and pink late early powerpc rumor ibm will build its powerpc late infoworld june macweek week will have microchannel bus and xga video carl jabido and will run native version aix and mac apps week there have been comments compatablity dos windows apps apple powerpc machine tesseract planned out jan and have mhz ram mbyte floppy drive and expected sale near line prices down from projections macuser macweek poweropen bit preemtive multitasking planned run powerpcs and macs macweek intel compatibility uncertain see mac above planned base requirements ram hard drive macweek rumor ahead schedule could out mid rumor this could the for ibm powerpc which due late pink taligent expecting delivery wall street journal and may have some parts shipping and aix and mac and poweropen with the powerpcs macweek windows possible port macweek see ibm section for details solaris version this sun microsystems inc unix run the power pcs macweek one the few oses directly state that will run windows dos programs ibm section for details nextstep possible port see ibm section for details number crunching mel park mac arithmetic done consistent numerical environment sane standard apple numerics environment floating point numbers are bits long when fpu present and bits otherwise exceptions such dividing zero taking the square root negative number not cause abort but are handled logically consistent manner produces the internal representation for infinity inf produces zero the above treatment occurs fpu equipped machine even when sane bypassed and the fpu programmed directly ibm floating point numbers are bits with hardware fpu bits when emulated the way they are handled dependent the coding whatever compiler assembler was used for program older dos complilers exceptions could cause program aborts and would abort the dos prompt the point where they occured most present compilers handle this better result there little consistent handling numbers between dos windows and programs nor between programs for just one networking includes printing wysiwyg printing can problem with either mac ibm machines especially one sends truetype fonts older style postscript printer mac hardware built localtalk network port and built printer port localtalk has moderate speeds requires special connectors for each machine and and can run off either the printer port include very old macs the network port standard today built ethernet becoming common but many older macs require pds nubus card about for each machine these cards provide three connectors and transceivers thick thin and baset for ethernet the macintosh quadra family and some centris models includes ethernet interface motherboard with transceivers available tokenring has been network option since software appletalk the suite protocols standard with mac which can use variety media types appleshare client software included with the well and can connect file servers such novell netware com open banyan vines dec pathworks apple appleshare servers system file sharing machines and afp servers running variety unix hosts mactcp allows typical tcp communications telnet ftp nfs rlogin later version will have unix open transport interface xti built the end macweek third party software connect nfs servers dec pathworks provides decnet support peer peer file sharing software built system see section full server software extra printing requires connection the printer and the printer being selected the chooser changing printers selecting different name the chooser the same true connecting servers printing bugs monaco truetype font different then the screen bitmap font quickdraw suppossed fix this and similar problems ibm hardware localtalk not widely used ethernet and tokenring software novell netware banyan vines decnet windows work groups appletalk protocols and appleshare subset appletalk each the dos networking schemes are general totally incompatible with the others once you have chosen one you are pretty much locked that product line from then windows work groups little more forgiving and removes some this problem novell netware the biggest percent the corporate market and general more powerful and offers better control management security than appleshare but also more complex set and manage this will change due the use the mac finder and file management system novell week infoworld dec macweek printing very dependent dos single user then you plug the printer into the parallel port and don worry about tweeking may needed with poorly written software network printing not controlled the system but mostly implemented the actual program therefore performance varies from one software program the next windows supports standard drivers and can good job showing jobs the print queue but always lists printers active even they are not this becomes problem there are several incompatible printers the same net because there way for software reliably determine which printer active right now windows for workgroups more mac like and intelligent about this mac like the deals with printers with apps making calls the printing bugs due poor programing some programs for all the above oses not have wysiwyg printing this the fault the programs question and not that the involved price issue this very dynamic with mac providing more build features than ibm and ibm being more get only what you need then mac and price wars both worlds the ibm machines modualar nature prevents any kind true hardware standarization which turn requires oses and programs very complex handle all the variation hardware when one adds all the standard mac hardware features ibm built input output sound support scsi pds built monitor support built networking standard mouse interface and nubus higher machines the mac tends cheaper then equivalent equipted ibm machine especially since some ibm monitors can used with macs which cuts some more the mac cost macuser aug some prices using some the info this sheet and macuser april all macs below come with pds slot vram and scsi built except where noted monitor extra and built monitor interface provided card needed except for bit color display ibm planned slc mhz model with hard drive and color vga monitor vram macweek sounds like color classic without scsi sound support built network support fpu socket built expansion bit color etc color classic mhz with bit data bus mhz equivalent fpu socket and built monitor lciii mhz mhz equivalent and centris mhz depending the program mhz equivalent built ethernet rom pds nubus slot and vram for bit color centris mhz depending the program mhz mhz equivalent with pds and nubus slots ethernet ethernet ethernet rom vram for bit color bibliography notes vaporware available the digest vapor directory ftp sumex aim stanford edu and was murphy sewall last issue april info ibmpc digest back issues are available from wsmr simtel army mil directory archives ibmpc dictionary computer terms isbm these are the facts they were known and may changed new developments announcements corrections corrections the information are welcome please email corrections compuserve aol bruceg internet bgrubb dante nmsu edu final note since there comp sys ibm advocacy group this has been posted the closest relevent groups comp windows advocacy comp advocacy and comp sys ibm misc also since some mac ibm articles have been showing comp sys mac hardware have included that newsgroup the posting don site the comp sys mac faq reason not post comp sys mac hardware since the faq itself does not follow internet guidelines especially the facto all the faqs for newgroup hierarchy should posted all newsgroups the hierarchy standard eliminate the impossible and what ever remains matter how improbable the truth sir arthur conan doyle through sherlock holmes the adventure the beryl coronet the adventure the blanched soldier sign four and the adventure the bruce partington plans the computer your friend parinoia rpg
comp.sys.mac.hardware	could join does anybody known how much about buy ethernet card for mac besides where goto buy buy mail order which brand suitable for mac the network coxial wire thanks lot could anybody tell what thank you
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems article news udel edu johnston udel edu bill johnston writes article apr mintaka lcs mit edu nodine lcs mit edu mark nodine writes don know about the specific problem mentioned your message but definitely had scsi problems between and venerable jasmine megadrive cartridge drives solution was get silverlining none the loops that involved blind writes worked the drives that worked was the macintosh software loop whatever that means doubt this quadra specific problem had get rid venerable bernoulli last year with enough cartridges purchased each make the whole thing worth more than whole computer the tech support guys ocean microsystems suggested that some third party drivers might fix the problem case the cartridges wouldn format mount partition for hat the megadrives worked perfectly both mac plus and powerbook was for this reason assumed the problem had something with the quadra even with the quadra they mostly worked the problem occurred when ejected cartridge from drive would start popping dialog boxes saying this cartridge must formatted with jasmine driveware even though there was cartridge the drive mark format have this confirmed from apple computer sweden work for apple dealer service tech had problems that quadras wanted format diskette syquest when ther was nothing the drive this problem was fixed sytem mikael fredriksson email mikael fredriksson macexchange mac exchange bbs lindome sweden bbs lines fax fido disclaimer mac exchange bbs cannot held responsible for the contents this message
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare rvenkate cso uiuc edu ravikuma venkateswar writes ray netcom com ray fischer writes how about some numbers here some kind benchmark benchmarks are for marketing dweebs and cpu envy will make you happy the faster than the bfd both architectures are nearing then end their lifetimes and especially with the architecture good riddance besides for wait state performance you need cache anyway mean who uses processor that runs the speed simms note that this memory speed corresponds clock speed mhz the point being the processor speed only one many aspects computers performance clock speed processor memory speed cpu architecture systems even the application program all contribute the overall system performance and roughly the twice fast given clock speed the numbers look them yourself ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare jwa hemul nada kth jon wtte writes but the interesting comparision how fast clock cycle chips you can get alpha way slow mhz but blazes mhz the only problem going finding someone who can make mhz computer system could tough ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	can you share one monitor cpus cleveland freenet edu david kantrowitz writes have centris want get ibm machine well save space desk would like use one monitor for both with switch box does anyone know way this sure buy switch box and multisync monitor have just that arrangement desk and works fine ray fischer convictions are more dangerous enemies truth ray netcom com than lies friedrich nietzsche
comp.sys.mac.hardware	sound recording mac portable answer lead whatever equipment will work mac plus mac will work fine mac portable doesn have sound input but there equipment that works fine with those models mentioned macuser macworld gene jackatak raider net gene wright jackatak raider net
comp.sys.mac.hardware	calling all mac gurus article qvs usenet ins cwru edu charles cox cox snowhite eeap cwru edu writes question for those familiar with quadra vram put vram simms quadra the slots closest the ram simm slots and got results whatsoever have been told that the built video should support least bit and maybe bit color macintosh color display however the monitors control panel still lists bit colors the highest possible the will only bit bit color you want the higher color depth vram altogether for monitor for monitor you can get bit max hope this answers your questions james wang
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mhz fine article apr informatik muenchen menes informatik muenchen rainer menes writes wonder why nobody has ever tried replace the oscilator only like mac iisi have had running with mhz osc for few months have number scsi devices connected quantum maxtor toshiba via emulex adapter pioneer drm and have had trouble using the stock cooling facilities considered adding fan heat pump but don feel they are necessary for box anyway have temp meter order and plan some measurements when arrives few weeks email you want see the results james macphail jmacphai cue bounce try james mirg phy queensu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	help newly installed falcon bombs crashed internal help just received falcon upgrade from spectrum holobyte today running sys with ram like the instructions said only installed disk the program start screen music just downloaded macsbug from ftp apple com like said and installed system folder restarted the mac hour later and wouldn completely boot off the internal get the happy mac then disappears only reappear and repeat the cycle continuously never even get the welcome macintosh message norton utilities fixed about new problems but the same thing still happened what please mail orly aludra usc edu thanks advance victor orly victor orly try imagine all life you know aka nitro plastique stopping instantaneously and every molecule univ southern california your body exploding the speed light internet orly aludra usc edu egon spengler from ghostbusters
comp.sys.mac.hardware	serial line connection between duo and article almaden ibm com petrack vnet ibm com writes have tried almost everything under the sun get null modem connection between mac duo and have used mackermit and versaterm the mac side have used procomm kermit and softerm the side have used non hardware handshaking and hardware ahdshaking cables and know hands are shaking from the effort nothing has allowed file transfers from the mac the could hear from someone attesting that they can really pump information out the serial port duo fast like via modem via sys dump could anyone with duo help out going absolutely insane wanna know the problem duo all duo all duos just hmmm sounds vaguely similar problem had long time ago when was trying use kermit was building serial connection between duo and next think the problem was the handshaking basically you need make sure that the handshaking protocol the same both sides safe place start selecting handshaking either end one problem that the zilog serial chip seems get permanently wedged you talk wrong and only reset will clear don know the specifics but this could nonlinearity that screws your attempts debugging the system could very well that you are doing things right eventually but one wrong move like trying bad handshaking protocol can screw any further correct actions until the next machine reset have wedged mac and also next that way now can send files back and forth between the duo and the next without any problem and pretty high speeds too don know what kind chip the uses but think the zilog pretty standard hope this helps avery
comp.sys.mac.hardware	using setwutime with aep world std com andrew page writes can get the mac sleep but can make seem make wake with setwutime the powerbook hardware doesn have wakeup timer nor does the the mac portable had one and think the powerbook had one don know about the newer powerbooks but kind doubt got bit this too and took while rooting around the developer before found this out steve folta folta well
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra scsi problems attention mac quadra owners many storage industry experts have concluded that mac quadras suffer from timing irregularities deviating from the standard scsi specification this results silent corruption data when used with some devices including ultra modern devices although will not name the devices since not their fault example would sony inch without the special mac compatible firmware installed one solution sometimes disable blind writes the best knowledge there aren any problems with quadras and blind transfers trouble with blind transfers usually means the programmer screwed the tibs didn test their driver with the device question well designed tibs poll loop every point where delays sec occur this usually occurs the first byte each block transfer but some devices can hiccup the middle blocks this happens the middle blind transfer there the possibility losing gaining byte depending which direction the tranfer was going anycase the scsi manager will eventually return phase error the end the transaction because out sync actual data loss would only occur the driver didn pay attention the errors coming back note that this effect not caused anything actually the scsi bus but rather the transfer loops inside the scsi manager the problem occurs when the processor bus errors trying access the scsi chip when the next byte hasn been clocked yet also note that the bus error dealt with bus error handler and doesn crash the machine clinton bauder apple computer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm dram arthur greene fidonet org arthur greene writes can anyone tell what the difference between dram chip and simm need the former think add memory laserwriter someone offering sell simms removed from but have feeling this may not the correct form memory the sockets the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with recall pins arranged two rows believe not never actually seen simm help appreciated simm small pcb with dram chips soldered maarten real life maarten carels computer science department university amsterdam email maarten fwi uva
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mhz fine have had running with mhz osc for few months have number scsi devices connected quantum maxtor toshiba via emulex adapter pioneer drm and have had trouble this being done with the motherboard scsi interface this possible then bit experimenting with just plain old clock oscillators may order give some more details please the mad clock chipper seattle guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	half page hand scanners anyone out there using greyscale handscanner thinking about buying one the inexpensive logitech pretty good don need super high quality scans but want worth the thanks advance mike charles
comp.sys.mac.hardware	deskwriter drivers how install recently upgraded system and now also upgraded deskwriter drivers from got the software from sumex but not clear where install what can someone tell which the files that come with where and for what purpose what can left out for instance you don want background printing thanks tom internet wstomv win tue eindhoven university technology voice dept mathematics computing science fax box eindhoven netherlands
comp.sys.mac.hardware	asynch synch the mac does anyone have any good code drive the serial port syncronos mode really need bad tia abravo mondrian csufres edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why the drive speeds differ all just got cie meg external hard drive speed tests show that substantially faster that internal meg quantum supposedly the and the both lps drives are roughly rated the same speed why such large difference marc marc matteo applelink matteo california state university internet mmatteo mondrian csufresno edu fresno aol matteo
comp.sys.mac.hardware	half page hand scanners the logitech scanman nice unit compact and effective will bring graphics with surprisingly good quality note that its effective resolution grey scale mode only about dpi you don intend magnify graphic works fine true level gray scanner would work better for images seen the scanman for little used reasonable buy that price higher end hand scanners are almost expensive used flat bed scanners here seattle the paper shows occasional good bargains the classifieds used color flat beds have been seen lows lately grey scale flatbeds come around
comp.sys.mac.hardware	monitor shut down res just luck did however call local apple dealer and said that the thinks the serial numbers the machines that are covered begin with either and maybe one other also told that apple had extended the service these serial numbers for another year there still hope get those monitor jeffh ludwig uoregon edu jeff hite writes article apr guvax acc georgetown edu hew guvax acc georgetown edu writes there defect the res monitors bring dealer and they will replace the flyback for free think just heard this problem work today and are fixing them for free the service notice the res monitors expired after this date apple will not reimburse service providers for the fix replacement the voltage capacitor all you folks that have been putting with intermittant shutdowns without getting your service provider missed out the freebie was force for year you got free after you got deal jeff hite computing center oregon jeffh ludwig uoregon edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mhz fine article lee husc harvard edu lee husc harvard edu patrick lee wrote menes informatik muenchen rainer menes writes wonder why nobody has ever tried replace the oscilator only like mac iisi understand the newer variable speed overdrive only hardware and alittle init which use adjust the speed idear replace the cristal oscilator wit socket and than can change the oscilator very easy this will alot cheaper the the newer variable speed overdrive would gues only are need the upgrade does someone the net ever tried this variant speeding the quadra the may issue magazine was article about upgrading models apple they simply change crystals and add fan hammerhead centris was able work with mhz cooler prefered and for you get mhz which works with the appropriate crystal full speed extra cooling required centris like quadra with extra cooling mhz works most machines and for real power enthusiasts they used quadra mhz wow but for better description you should get this issue german magazine christian bauer bauer informatik uni ulm
comp.sys.mac.hardware	hard disk error there when run disk first aid external hard drive quantum lps get the followinf message error missing thread record tarid tarblock disk first aid not able fix this problem norton utils doesn find all when use norton disk editor look tarblock can read something like dirreservedarea question how can get rid this error without reformatting course michael kemper university kaiserslautern germany email kemper rhrk uni although they gave that email address this not the opinion rhrk uni
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship note that you get the external for your centris you will miss out the sound mixing feature unless you are willing run wire from the motherboard sound input connector the stereo output the connecting the sound input port the back the computer won unless you can live with mono
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how they compare rayc rpxb netcom com ray netcom com ray fischer writes but the interesting comparision how fast clock cycle chips you can get alpha way slow mhz but blazes mhz the only problem going finding someone who can make mhz computer system could tough you can order one from digital today cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe don fear death dying that scares
comp.sys.mac.hardware	rom apr mrl dsto gov ryanph mrl dsto gov writes there reason that apple couldn release software patches for older computers there are lots mac pluses classics and ses that have been upgraded and processors which should perfectly able deal with color quickdraw but they wont and parties are having difficult there one reason market size the market size for color quickdraw for accellerated plusses and ses which don beyond anyway just too small the extra cost would belike and with that money you can buy color classic instead cheers jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe don fear death dying that scares
comp.sys.mac.hardware	ethernet card that uses rose article aaron bratcher fpm mac uchicago edu aaron bratcher fpm uchicago edu aaron bratcher writes does anyone know there ethernet card that takes advantage the rose extension hey what does the rose extension anyway michael michael antolovich wagga wagga great place mantolovich csu edu antolovich zac riv csu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	torx screwdriver article austin ibm com login austin ibm com writes while ago when owned plus and wanted upgrade its memory just ordered the toolkit from macwarehouse for something like included anti static wrist strap the clamp used split the clamshell case and the torx screwdriver they might not selling anymore but give and any other company that sells memory upgrades suitable for plus style box call bet that they still offer the kit next day air usually the shipping method used too told that some these companies often sell plastic throw away after one use version the torx driver ask before you buy michael michael antolovich wagga wagga great place mantolovich csu edu antolovich zac riv csu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra clock chipping works after reading reports from germany success accelerating quadra centris simply changing the clock oscillator decided test the claim pulled out variable speed overdrive and the motherboard mhz clock chip put socket the clock place and inserted mhz ttl clock oscillator had left over from working some can believe actually works not getting scsi timing errors either this only after short run time but keep posting results did spend all that money the vso for nothing this keeps working the lack double boot itself will worth the effort guy kuo guykuo washington edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	versatec plotter ppd hello world does anyone know postscript ppd for versatec size plotter which generally accessed via zeh postscript interpreter replies mail very gratefully received this proving quite tricky one andrew nielsen internet anielsen dialix advanced systems consultant applelink aust applecentre perth adelaide tce tel perth australia fax any opinions expressed are own not those employer
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quadra startup out monitor right shawn fitzgerald chungkuo umcc umcc umich edu wrote there fix for this have quadra that will not finish startup unless there monitor connected this would problem but since running file server there need have monitor connected all the time seen control panel made for this don remember the name where saw what quadra models will work but know exists mats mats bredell mats bredell udac uppsala university computing center udac department medical systems fax sweden think straight gay
comp.sys.mac.hardware	simm dram article zeus ieee org arthur greene arthur greene fidonet org writes can anyone tell what the difference between dram chip and simm need the former think add memory laserwriter someone offering sell simms removed from but have feeling this may not the correct form memory the sockets the laserwriter look like they want the spidery shaped chips there are sockets each with recall pins arranged two rows believe not never actually seen simm help appreciated dram chip kilobit chip whereas simm kilobyte memory module the simm pcb with pin connector edge and the simm are kilobit dram chips making the total memory kbytes you are correct assuming that simms will not fit into laserwriter apple printers either require pin simms like those the mac iifx special memory chips contact your apple dealer find out exactly what kind chips you need peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	pin simms where article qulhsinnm charnel ecst csuchico edu steven medley smedley ecst csuchico edu writes looking for meg pin simm for centris where the best place purchase one stock shipping warrenty and possible phone numbers that can order one soon possible try goldstar they make them and they are available immediately mac configurations ordered pair from computerland meg variety and they work like charm had them for two weeks peter hansen bell northern research pgmoffc bnr
comp.sys.mac.hardware	buying high speed everything modem article apr cmp ilstu edu behr math ilstu edu eric behr writes the dataport earns nearly unanimous praises for reliability they are backordered the moment probably because the special price effect until may its fax capabilities are worse than that the other two modems warning ads say that the modem comes with mac kit cables all and has lifetime warranty this applies only when you order directly from paradyne called elektek one the distributors and they wanted charge for cable and gave only year warranty hmm don know where this information concerning the cable and the warranty came from but ordered mine from logos communications near cleveland and inside was mac cable with the correct pin connections and lifetime warranty the whole package was assembled paradyne and every piece the serial cable the telephone cable etc had part numbers them except the quicklink software package and the compuserve intro kit eric behr illinois state university mathematics department behr math ilstu edu behr ilstu bitnet please avoid anyone interested logos number ordered mine last wednesday and got modem friday though not far from cleveland pittsburgh the down side they only ship ups cod chris christopher dingman electrical and computer eng dept dingman ece cmu edu carnegie mellon university forbes ave pittsburgh
comp.sys.mac.hardware	apple giong brighter apple rgb monitor has over the past few months gone brighter and brighter and the colors are not rich before has anyone out there encountered similar problem dows anyone happen know what this problem may due
comp.sys.mac.hardware	setwutime works have tested this and does work there would seem that the and are out though one way tell and open the powerbook control panel there setting there that allows you set the time wake the mac present when you open the control panel then you can assume that setwutime will work andrew page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what are macintosh and dsp technology and what want
comp.sys.mac.hardware	half page hand scanners have lightening scan pro hand scanner came with scanning editing software ocr software and some plug modules for photoshop the scanner was tad the pricey side but the scans are incredibly accurate level dpi grayscale also has dithered and line art settings when grayscale isn desired great scanning software easy use frequently write letters neices and spontaneouly include scanned image the note hope this helps
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi last week mac place had the applied engineering quicksilver card cache one pds slot socket for fpu sale for without fpu regular price idea this still going but can get the phone anyone interested found their macuser can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards have only one report which seems indicate that cache card gives you only about speedup access memory takes longer when you have cache card and get miss thus small cache card may worth don know what kind numbers cards get you also found interesting that you can disable the cache cards via software read about the mac iisi tech notes from ftp apple com good deal not still don know
comp.sys.mac.hardware	drivers for rom sakelley jeeves ucsd edu scott kelley writes does anybody know where could find driver for future echo infomasster sic cde rom drive friend running this drive off and would like use the mac here are some contacts for generic rom drivers optical access international west cummings park suite woburn fax applelink oai fwb inc polk street suite san francisco fax applelink fwb optical media international knowles drive los gatos fax applelink omi trantor systems for intel architecture machines randall place fremont applelink trantor software architects not verified north creek parkway suite bothell applelink softarch dev casa blanca works not verified applelink cbworks send message someone applelink use the form address applelink apple com where address replaced the appropriate applelink address brian bechtel blob apple com opinion not apple
comp.sys.mac.hardware	vram simms there could some kind soul tell what the price iivi iivx compatible vram simms the nowadays the price over here finland ridiculously high about each usd that think worth the trouble try get them overseas thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	how long ram simm last doesn simm have about moving flip flops they don move anybody much bigger than electron and they more like charging discharging capacitors dram simm anthony saxton elenay creations
comp.sys.mac.hardware	iisi question the has single expansion slot that can either pds nubus but not both together the card lies parallel and above the motherboard and requires adaptor slot this there are nubus and pds adaptort cards thus what kind slots you have depends what kind adapter card you have with the exception the radius rocket all nubus cards know work the pds slots and thus cards are mac specific thus not all pds cards work all macs from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	desi upgrade does anyone know exactly how digital eclipse does their upgrades someone was suggesting that some chips may not able perform mhz this true and how does desi deal with that david from planet bmug the firstclass bbs bmug the message contained this posting does not any way reflect bmug official views
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good display card for multisync there wonder anyone knows and can recommend good nubus display card for driving multisync nec the nec can horizontal refresh from khz khz and vertical from and can max interlaced though looking for something more like noninterlaced would very nice find card which can programmed quite freely within these limits and capable display least bits pixel preferably more there anything the market that comes even close thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	good hard disk driver for non apple drives sys compat there what your recommendation for good hard disk driver software for non apple drives would mainly need for syquest removable media drive but maybe for some normal drives too have heard and seen good things about silverlining but don know any competitors does not need fancy filled with features more like affordable thanks jartsu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding vram quadra wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu stuart jones writes want from vram quadra how many simms need buy none you need buy vram simms they cost about each from your favorite memory distributor the current soldered the board need take out the current vram before add more the soldered the logic board there are simm slots for expansion hades
comp.sys.mac.hardware	psi comstation anyone have any expierience with psi comstation please contact you had have suggesiton for really good modem with fax for the macintosh via uci net amiga dennis cheung the dtc corporation america america online dtc internet dtc mlinknet hotcity com disclaimer you never read this message this message doesn exist
comp.sys.mac.hardware	why the drive speeds differ zimmer csufresno edu mmatteo mondrian csufresno edu marc matteo writes just got cie meg external hard drive speed tests show that substantially faster that internal meg quantum supposedly the and the both lps drives are roughly rated the same speed why such large difference could better caching the disk could faster coil for seeks could that the disk spins faster data transfers faster could that data packed tighter transfers faster could faster scsi command decoder the drive among other things jon tte nada kth mac hacker deluxe engineering how will this work science why will this work management when will this work liberal arts you want fries with that jesse schell
comp.sys.mac.hardware	adding vram quadra article wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu wstuartj lucky ecn purdue edu stuart jones writes want from vram quadra how many simms need buy the current soldered the board need take out the current vram before add more you need add two vram simms vram simms will not work any the quadra centris machines there already vram soldered the logic board you add the two simms this give you total dale adams
comp.sys.mac.hardware	cache card for iisi can some people with cache cards please post speedometer numbers they get with the cards have only one report which seems indicate that cache card gives you only about speedup have record that shows iisi with and without cache small enough that will attach have also measured some real programs with and without the cache the speedup varies lot from app app ranging from think average about right the subjective difference not great but sometimes noticable simple cache card certainly does not transform iisi into something enormously better not have fpu the conventional wisdom says that cache cards from all the makers offer about the same speedup and that there not much difference between and caches bought mine from third wave for well under have had absolutely problems all with you get complete speedometer runs for cache like see them let check the conventional wisdom the called performance rating numbers themselves are interest cheers peter newton newton utexas edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	when apple going ship article fdinnddt senator bedfellow mit edu thewho athena mit edu derek fong writes interestingly enough the cdrom that came with quadra has only disks system install kodak photo sampler alice ocean cdrom titles application demos mozart dissonant quartet nautilus apple chronicles has anyone else noticed that they got less than everyone seems getting with the external what really feel missed out what supposed fantastic games demo disk have heard that people have gotten disks with their drive assume they get the titles above plus cinderella and the games demo cdrom any comments and experiences should call apple complain derek thewho plume mit edu what did not get with drive the system install you listed any ideas about how can get one bought iivx from direct express chicago complaints all good price good service btw heard that the system install can used boot the mac however drive will not accept caddy the machine off how can you boot with then dave dlc umcc ais org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	source for deskwriter ink carts could someone please mail post cheap source for ink carts for the deskwriter original carts are preferred but will settle for third party brands they are good quality tttttt eeeee eeeee eeee eeee steve liu vvv drlovemd jhunix hcf jhu edu eeeee eeeee drlovemd jhuvms hcf jhu edu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	stereo sound problem mac games steve bollinger buzz apple com writes enter game developers the sound driver and current sound manager are inconveniently lame for making games the sound driver pretty since fast sound manager used the book useless disposing sound channels soon sound has completed out the question for games with smooth animation too slow the sound driver much snappier than sound manager unfortunately system supports poorly making programs crash occasionally the more the story developers don cheat really absolutely positively not allowed what about but going say anyway stop cheating sound really soon you will sorry even those without external speakers will disappointed with your sound future hardware the grace period about end the sound manager understandable now and works pretty well and will work even better soon use well want code work old systems too don know about sys but least there are bugs the sound manager that causes channels hang with error message this happends when keep channel open for long periods necessary for performance and play many sounds stopping sounds halfway callbacks seems not reliable then only way can safely tell sound has stopped playing inspect private variables the channel qhead think was and the only way have found tell channel hung inspect undocumented flag and modify happy with this nope consider writing soundbase simply get rid the bugs any better suggestions silent games not among the acceptab solutions ingemar ragnemalm dept electrical engineering uunet mcvax enea rainier ingemar university linkoping sweden ingemar isy liu
comp.sys.mac.hardware	buying high speed everything modem what hardware handshaking and when want use dan
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac oriented bbss chicago member the local bbs frequent looking for mac oriented bbss based chicago any leads would most appreciated here list the firstclass systems illinois chicago machine chicago insane domain chicago mac universe bbs chicago the net rockford mactripp wilmette innovators vernon hills anyone wants the numbers more firstclass systems would glad post the complete list jason hyerstay adrenaline admin adrenaline online firstclass charlotte free access hst dual onenet macunion fidonet usenet conferences megs files dedicated mac users cyberpunks civil libertarians and mecha gamers
comp.sys.mac.hardware	making internal hard disk into external its not difficult operation the cables and such are standard except for scsi scsi usually three jumper pads labelled quantums trying put drive from into case conner can figure out which jumpers are the scsi jumpers anyone familiar with this drive the end the drive oposite the pin pibbon connector there are eleven pins which look like this where the are pins and the represent some the silk screen notation near these pins elsewhere the board there are four jumper pads marked the silk screen does anyone know where the scsi pins are and where the drive activity light led should plugged into allan allan schwartz ams auspex com
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac scsi spec have maciifx and know that wired about its scsi chain just bought drive and need find out few hardcore scsi question does the iifx scsi chain want see active passive termination does the iifx scsi spec want enable the initiation the sdtr message what does the iifx scsi spec want far parity checking these are some very good questions for the faq someone does not have time answer these questions but does know where can look them please let know and will repost the answers for everyone see thanks tim keanini timk broder com blast crl com sound engineer broderbund software
comp.sys.mac.hardware	duo crashes aftersleep add the list bugged owners had bunch problems regarding sleep wakeup restart with the when first got both with and without the techworks ram finally died wouldn start until opened the docking door which snaps open and the machine came fine but with the clock few decades off apple replaced the processor board now twice the machine has frozen mouse action twice the machine has refused wake acutally the backlighting came and the disk spins when the power adaptor plugged but not with good battery the first time this happened removing both power adaptor and battery for minute brought the machine back the second time this happened the machine wouldn wake until powered down for about minutes the screen had what looked like red horizontal lines accross both timse the file fax modem preferences has been corrupted according disinfectent have removed all the fax and modem software and the third party memory and waiting see happens again forrest forrest howard oracle corporation oracle parkway box redwood shores
comp.sys.mac.hardware	mac portable powerbook answers can the internal hard drive the macportable upgraded larger capacity what the specs drive lps model there any third party modem greater than bps with fax option notice the macportable batteries are avalable thru the apple catalog eric choi internet eric choi fidonet org
comp.sys.mac.hardware	quickdraw was when are the rest the inside mac due releasing whole new suite quickdraw related docs you going the wwdc next month you get preliminary version most this documentation the talking multiple thousands pages afraid comprising graphics layout and printing has lots new api calls and other functionality all which need documenting dave opstad line layout weenie does take the place bit add right now bit kinda aesthetically pain few places because hacks upon hacks maintain compatibility with original think things like where you have cast cgrafports grafports and such would lot cleaner ditch this entire mess and start over get that maynard
comp.sys.mac.hardware	non apple printer there workaround which will enable print hplj from powerbook actually going which will have ethernet card the localtalk slot grrrrr there some hardware which will enable this easily kind plug and play thanks pam mullen this message was sent member seattle mac dbug exchange bbs box seattle usa infoline
comp.windows.x	international obfuscated code contest opening enclosed are the rules guidelines and related information for the international obfuscated code contest this part part shar file enjoy chongo landon curt noll larry bassel bin this shell archive shar made utc chongo toad com source directory tmp existing files will overwritten this shar contains length mode name rules guidelines mkentry obfuscate info rules echo extracting rules text sed shar eof rules international obfuscated code contest rules xcopyright landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education non profit use xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel obfuscate cated cating cates render obscure darken confuse his emotions obfuscated his judgment llat obfuscare darken intensive lat fuscare darken fuscus dark obfuscation obfuscatory adj xgoals the contest write the most obscure obfuscated program under the rules below show the importance programming style ironic way stress compilers with unusual code illustrate some the subtleties the language provide safe forum for poor code xrules help with the volume entries ask that you follow these rules your entry must complete program your entry must bytes length the number characters excluding whitespace tab space newline and excluding any followed either whitespace end file must your entry must submitted the following format entry xrule xfix this new entry this replaces older entry xtitle title entry see comments below xentry entry number from inclusive your entry should xdate date time submission utc see comments below xhost machine and under which your entry was tested use tab indented lines needed remark place remarks about this entry this section would helpful you were indent your remarks with spaces though not requirement also possible try avoid going beyond the column blank lines are permitted author xname your name xorg school company organization xaddr postal address use tab indented lines continue don forget include the country xemail email address from well known site registered domain you give several forms list them separate tab indented lines xanon remain anonymous publish this info info xif your program needs info file place uuencoded copy xthis section the case multiple info files use multiple info xsections your entry does not need info file skip this section build xplace uuencoded copy the command used compile build your program xin this section must uudecode into file named build the resulting xfile must bytes less program xplace uuencoded copy your program this section must uudecode xinto file named prog the resulting file must follow rule end regarding the above format the title must match the expression and must characters length suggested but not required that the title should incorporate your username the case multiple authors consider using parts the usernames the authors the date the entry section should given with respect utc the format the date should returned asctime using the locale see guidelines for more info you may correct revise previously submitted entry sending the contest email address sure set fix the entry section the corrected entry must use the same title and entry number submittion that being corrected sure that you note the resubmittion the remark well with the exception the header all text outside the above format may ignored the judges you need tell the judges something put the remark section send separate email message the judges information from the author section will published unless was given the respective author anon line credit multiple authors include author section for each author each should start with author line and should found between the entry and build sections the entry remarks should include what this program does how run the program sample args input special compile execution instructions any special filename requirements see rule and information about any data files why you think the program obfuscated note this entry submission previous entry any other remarks humorous otherwise not rot your entry remarks you may suggest that certain portions your remarks rot your entry wins award info files should used only supplement your entry they should not required exist your entry does not need info file skip the info section your entry needs multiple info files use multiple info sections one per info file you should describe each info file the remark section your entry selected winner will modified follows build incorporated into makefile and build removed prog renamed your entry title followed optional digit followed your entry compiled into file with the name your entry title possibly followed digit your entry requires that build file exist state your entry remark section the makefile will arranged execute build shell script containing the build information the name this build shell script will your entry title possibly followed digit followed needed your entry remarks should indicate how your entry must changed order deal with the new filenames the build file the source and the resulting executable should treated read only files your entry needs modify these files should make and modify copy the appropriate file this occurs state your entry remarks entries that cannot compiled ansi compiler will rejected use common extensions permitted long does not cause compile errors for ansi compilers the program must original work all programs must the public domain all copyrighted programs will rejected entries must received prior may utc utc essentially equivalent greenwich mean time email your entries apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate obfuscate toad com request that your message use the subject ioccc entry possible request that you hold off emailing your entries until mar utc early entries will accepted however will attempt email confirmation the the first author for all entries received after mar utc each person may submit entries per contest year each entry must sent separate email letter entries requiring human interaction built are not allowed compiling entry produce file files which may executed programs that require special privileges setuid setgid super user special owner group are not allowed xfor more information the judging will done landon noll and larry bassel please send questions comments but not entries about the contest apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges judges toad com the rules and the guidelines may and often change from year year you should sure you have the current rules and guidelines prior submitting entries obtain all them send email the address above and use the subject send rules one may also obtain them via anonymous ftp from host ftp net user anonymous pass yourname yourhost dir pub ioccc xchongo landon curt noll hoptoad chongo xlarry bassel uunet ucbvax cbosgd sun lab shar eof chmod rules echo restore rules failed set rules test then echo original size current size guidelines echo extracting guidelines text sed shar eof guidelines international obfuscated code contest guidelines hints and comments xcopyright landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education non profit use xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel xabout this file this file intended help people who wish submit entries the international obfuscated code contest ioccc for short this not the ioccc rules though does contain comments about them the guidelines should viewed hints and suggestions entries that violate the guidelines but remain within the rules are allowed even you are safer you remain within the guidelines you should read the current ioccc rules prior submitting entries the rules are typically sent out with these guidelines xwhat new the entry format better for anyway the program mkentry has been updated see entry format will reject entries that cannot compiled using ansi compiler certain old obfuscation hacks that cause ansi compilers fits are longer permitted some the new issues deal with non integral array types variable number arguments preprocessor directives and the exit function see our likes and dislikes xhints and suggestions you are encouraged examine the winners previous contests see for more information for details how get previous winners keep mind that rules change from year year some winning entries may not valid entries this year what was unique and novel one year might old the next year entry usually examined number ways typically apply number tests entry look the original source convert ansi tri graphs ascii pre process the source ignoring include lines pre process the source ignoring define and include lines run through beautifier examine the algorithm lint compile execute you should consider how your entry looks each the above tests you should ask yourself your entry remains obscure after has been cleaned the pre processor and beautifier your entry need not well under all most tests certain cases test not important entries that compete for the strangest most creative source layout need not well others terms their algorithm the other hand given two such entries are more inclined pick the entry that does something interesting when you run try avoid limiting creativity our rules such leave the contest open for creative rule interpretation real life programming interpreting requirements document customer request important for this reason often award worst abuse the rules entry that illustrates this point ironic way you plan abuse the rules suggest that you let know the remarks section please note that invitation abuse not invitation break are strict when comes the byte size limit also abusing the entry format tends annoy more than amuse realize that there are holes the rules and invite entries attempt exploit them will award worst abuse the rules and then plug the hole next year even will attempt use the smallest plug needed not smaller check out your program and sure that works sometimes make the effort debug entry that has slight problem particularly near the final round the other hand have seen some the best entries fall down because they didn work tend look down prime number printer that claims that prime number you have bug you are better off documenting noting this entry sometimes prints the power prime mistake would save the above entry and sometimes strange bug feature can even help the entry course correctly working entry best xour likes and dislikes doing masses defines obscure the source has become old tend see thru masses defines due our pre processor tests that apply simply abusing defines dfoo bar won far program that more well rounded confusion many ansi compilers dislike the following code and define define foo don expect this turn into define foo int don use such implicit type declaration int suggest that you compile your entry with ansi compiler you must use non ansi such you must avoid areas that result compile link errors for ansi compilers unfortunately ansi requires array indexes integral type thus the following classical obfuscation hacks are longer allowed int char use instead string use string instead your entry uses functions that have variable number arguments careful systems implement list wide variety ways because this number operations using list are not portable and must not used assigning non list variable from list variable casting non list variable into from list variable passing list variable function expecting non list arg passing non list variable function expecting list arg performing arithmetic list variables using list structure union particular not treat list variables they were char avoid using varargs use stdarg instead you use preprocessor directives define ifdef the leading must the first character line while some preprocessors allow whitespace the leading many not because the exit function returns void some systems entries must not assume that returns int small programs are best when they are short obscure and concise while such programs are not complex other winners they serve useful purpose they are often the only program that people attempt completely understand for this reason look for programs that are compact and are instructional one line programs should short one line programs say around bytes long getting close bytes bit too long our opinion tend dislike programs that are very hardware specific are very version specific index strchr differences are but socket streams specific code likely not dump core have compiler warnings only you warn the remark header item won compile under both bsd sys abusing the build file get around the size limit obfuscate excessive use ansi tri graphs are longer than they need are similar previous winners are identical previous losers unless you are cramped for space unless you are entering the best one liner category suggest that you format your program more creative way than simply forming excessively long lines the build file should not used try and get around the size limit one thing make use several help out but quite another use bytes order try and squeeze the source under the size limit you should feel free make use the build file space but you are better off you show some amount restraint allowed whitespace and certain cases not impact your program size certain point because want get away from source that simply compact blob characters given two versions the same program one that compact blob code and the other that formatted more like typical program tend favor the second version course third version the same program that formatted interesting and obfuscated way would definitely win over the first two suggest that you avoid trying for the smallest self replicating program are amazed the many different sizes that claim the smallest there nothing wrong with self replicating programs fact number winners have been self replicating you might want avoid the claim smallest lest others know smaller one client entries should portable possible entries that adapt wide collection environments will favored don depend particular type display for example don depend color given size don require backing store client entries should avoid using related libraries and software that not wide spread use ask that such client entries restrict themselves only the low level xlib and the athena widget set libx libxaw libxmu and libxt don use tif openl toolkits since not everyone has them avoid depending particular window manager not everyone has and some people are stuck back earlier try target without requiring better yet try make your entry run all version window systems client entries should not depend particular items xdefaults you must sure note the required lines the remark section like programs that are concise and small they need something least quasi interesting pass lint without complaint not requirement but nice are portable are unique novel their obfuscation style make use number different types obfuscation make laugh and throw some types programs can excel some areas course your program doesn have excel all areas but doing well several areas really does help freely admit that interesting creative humorous comments the remark section helps your chance winning you had read many twisted entries you too would enjoy good laugh two think the readers the contest winners well creative xentry format order help process the many entries must request your assistance formatting your entries certain way this format addition allows quickly separate information about the author from the program itself see judging process have provided the program mkentry example how format entries you should aware the following warning that found mkentry this program attempts implement the ioccc rules every attempt has been made make sure that this program produces entry that conforms the contest rules all cases where this program differs from the contest rules the contest rules will used sure check with the contest rules before submitting entry you are not required use mkentry convenient however attempts uuencode the needed files and attempt check the entry against the size rules you have any suggestions comments fixes complaints about the mkentry program please send email the judges see below the following sample entry entry xrule xfix xtitle chonglab xentry xdate mon mar xhost pdp bsd pdp remark this non obfuscated obfuscated program likely not win prize but what you expect from short example author xname landon curt noll xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall box san francisco california usa xemail chongo toad com xanon author xname larry bassel xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall box san francisco california usa xemail hoptoad sun lab lab sun com xanon info xend build xbegin build ryc xend program xend end typically the build file should assume that the source prog and will compile into prog entry wins will rename its source and binary avoid filename collision tradition use the name the entry title followed optional digit case name conflicts the above entry somehow won the least likely win award would use chonglab and chonglab your entry depends requires that your build source and binary files particular name please say the remark section this case applies would helpful you did one the following tell how change the filename your entry have the build file make copies the files for example prog special name need special binary special src need special source prog special src special src special name special build need special build tail build special build special build assume that will use the entry title send version your build program files that uses the name convention you should uuencode these files data sections your entry needs modify its source info binary files please say the remark section you should try avoid touching your original build source and binary files you should arrange make copies the files you intend modify this will allow people generate your entry from scratch remember that your entry may built without build file typically incorporate the build lines into makefile the build file must exist say the remark section your entry needs special info files you should uuencode them into info sections the case multiple info files use multiple info sections info files are needed then skip the info section info files are intended input detailed information that does not fit well into the remark section for example entry that implements compiler might want provide some sample programs for the user compile entry might want include lengthy design document that might not appropriate for hints file info files should used only supplement your entry for example info files may provide sample input detailed information about your entry because they are supplemental the entry should not require them exist some cases your info files might renamed avoid name conflicts info files should not renamed for some reason say the remark section info files must uudecode into the current directory they absolutely must renamed moved into sub directory say the remark section when submitting multiple entries sure that each entry has unique entry number from your first entry should have entry number with the exception the header all text outside the entry format may ignored that don place text outside the entry and expect the judges see our decoding tools aren progs you need tell the the something put the remark section send email the judges apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for judges toad com submitting entries the date should given with respect utc some systems refer this gmt gmt the format the date should that returned asctime the locale example such string thr apr this format similar the output the date command the string does not include the timezone name before the year many systems one the following command will produce similar string date date sed utc date sed gmt date sed gmt date sed you are allowed update fix revise your entry set the fix line the entry section instead sure that the resubmittion uses the same title and entry number well these are used determine which entry replaced xjudging process entries are judged larry bassel and landon curt noll entries are unpacked into individual directories the email message unpacked into individual files each containing entry section all author sections all info sections build section program section any other text including the email message headers prior judging the any other text file scanned sure does not contain useful information case the entry was malformed and did not unpack correctly information from the author sections are not read until the judging process complete and then only from entries that have won award the above process helps keep biased for against any one particular individual are usually kept the dark much you are until the final awards are given like the surprise finding out the end who won and where they were from attempt keep all entries anonymous unless they win award because the main prize winning being announced make all attempts send non winners into oblivion remove all non winning files and shred all related paper tradition not even reveal the number entries that received for the curious indicate the volume paper consumed when presenting the ioccc winners talks after the usenix announcement attempt send email the authors the winning entries one reason this give the authors chance comment the way have presented their entry they are given the chance correct mistakes typos often accept their suggestions comments about our remarks well this done prior posting the winners the wide world judging consists number elimination rounds during round the collection entries are divided into two roughly equal piles the pile that advances the next round and the pile that does not also examine the entries that were eliminated the previous round thus entry gets least two readings reading consists number actions reading the entry section reading the uudecoded build section reading the uudecoded program section reading the uudecoded info section any passing the source thru the pre processor shipping over any include files performing number beautify cleanup edits the source passing the beautified source thru the pre processor shipping over any include files later rounds other actions are performed linting the source compiling building the source running the program performing misc tests the source and binary until reduce the stack entries down about entries entries are judged individual basis entry set aside because does not our opinion meet the standard established the round when the number entries thins about entries begin form award categories entries begin compete with each other for awards entry often will compete several categories the actual award category list will vary depending the types entries receive typical category list might best small one line program best small program strangest most creative source layout most useful obfuscated program best game that obfuscated most creatively obfuscated program most deceptive code best client see our likes and dislikes best abuse ansi worst abuse the rules anything else strange that deserves award not limit ourselves this list for example few entries are good bad that they are declared winners the start the final round will invent awards categories for them necessary the final round process perform the difficult tasks reducing the remaining entries typically about down winners often are confident that the entries that make into the final round are definitely better than the ones that not make the selection the winners out the final round less clear cut sometimes final round entry good enough win but beat out similar but slightly better entry for this reason sometimes worthwhile enter improved version entry that failed win previous year this assumes course that the entry worth improving the first place more often that not select small entry usually one line strange creative layout entry and entry that abuses the contest rules some way the end traditionally pick one entry best sometimes such entry simply far exceeds any the other entry more often the best picked because does well number categories xannouncement winners the first announcement occurs summer usenix conference tradition this done during the latter part the uunet ioccc bof just prior the berkeley bsd and bsdi bof winning entries will posted late june the following groups comp lang comp unix wizards alt sources addition pointers these postings are posted the following comp sources alt sources misc misc comp sources misc comp windows winning entries will deposited into the uunet archives see below for details often winning entries are published selected magazines winners have appeared books the new hackers dictionary and shirts last but not least winners receive international fame and flames xfor more information you may contact the judges sending email the following address apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for judges toad com submitting entries questions and comments about the contest are welcome one may obtain copy the current rules guidelines mkentry program obtain all them send email the address above and use the subject send rules one may also obtain the above items well winners previous contests via anonymous ftp from host ftp net user anonymous pass yourname yourhost dir pub ioccc often contest rules guidelines and winners are available from archive sites check comp sources unix archives for example you may also request previous winners email using the judges email address though ask that you this last resort xchongo landon curt noll hoptoad chongo xlarry bassel uunet ucbvax cbosgd sun lab shar eof chmod guidelines echo restore guidelines failed set guidelines test then echo original size current size echo end part continue with part exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	international obfuscated code contest opening part enclosed are the rules guidelines and related information for the international obfuscated code contest this part part shar file enjoy chongo landon curt noll larry bassel bin this part multipart archive mkentry echo extracting mkentry text sed shar eof mkentry mkentry copyright landon curt noll larry bassel all rights reserved permission for personal education non profit use granted provided this this copyright and notice are included its entirety and remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission writing from both landon curt noll and larry bassel mkentry make international obfuscated code contest entry usage mkentry remarks build prog ioccc entry remarks file with remarks about the entry build file containing how prog should built prog the obfuscated program source file ioccc entry ioccc entry output file compile mkentry mkentry placed the public domain landon curt noll this software provided and without any express implied warranties including without limitation the implied warranties merchantability and fitness for particular purpose warning this program attempts implement the ioccc rules every attempt has been made make sure that this program produces entry that conforms the contest rules all cases where this program differs from the contest rules the contest rules will used sure check with the contest rules before submitting entry send questions comments but not entries about the contest sun pacbell uunet pyramid hoptoad judges judges toad com the rules and the guidelines may and often change from year year you should sure you have the current rules and guidelines prior submitting entries obtain all them send email the address above and use the subject send rules because contest rules change from year year one should only use this program for the year that was intended sure that the rule year define below matches this current year include stdio include ctype include time include sys types include sys stat logic ifndef true define true endif true ifndef false define false endif false define eof true define eof not false global limits define rule year note should match the current year define start date mar utc first confirmation received define max col max column line should hit define max build size max how build size define max program size max program source size define max program size max program source size not counting whitespace and not followed whitespace eof define max title len max chars the title define max entry len max length the entry input line define max entry max number entries per person per year define max file len max filename length for info file where send entries define entry addr apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate define entry addr obfuscate toad com uuencode process assumes ascii define uuencode encode str int xff define uuencode len max uuencode chunk size define uuinfo mode mode info file uuencode file define uubuild mode mode the build file uuencode file define uubuild name build name for the build file uuencode file define uuprog mode mode the program uuencode file define uuprog name prog name for the program uuencode file encode str char val the uuencoded character val xchar encode str abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz global declarations xchar program our name xlong start time the startup time forward declarations xvoid parse args xvoid usage xfile open remark xfile open build xfile open program xfile open output xvoid output entry xvoid output remark xvoid output author xvoid output info xvoid output build xvoid output program xvoid output end xint get line xvoid output till dot xint col len xvoid check xvoid uuencode xmain argc argv int argc arg count char argv the args file remark null open remarks stream file build null open build file stream file prog null open program stream file output null open output stream char rname null file with remarks about the entry char bname null file containing how prog should built char pname null the obfuscated program source file char oname null ioccc entry output file struct startup time structure check the year start time time long gmtime start time year rule year fprintf stderr warning this program applies which may differ from argv rule year year parse the command line args parse args argc argv rname bname pname oname open check the input and output files open and truncate the output file first case the same one the input files output open output oname remark open remark rname build open build bname prog open program pname output null remark null build null prog null exit output each section output entry output oname output remark output oname remark rname output author output oname output info output oname output build output oname build bname output program output oname prog pname output end output oname flush the output fflush output eof fprintf stderr flush error program oname perror exit final words printf nyour entry can found you should check this file oname printf correct any problems and verify that the uudecode utility will printf correctly decode your build file and program printf this program has been provided guide for submitters printf cases where conflicts with the rules the rules shall apply printf your responsibility ensure that your entry conforms printf the current rules printf email your entries printf entry addr printf entry addr printf please use the following subject when you email your entry printf tioccc entry all done exit parse args parse the command line args given the command line args this function parses them and sets the required name flags this function will return only the command line syntax correct xvoid xparse args argc argv rname bname pname oname int argc arg count char argv the args char rname file with remarks about the entry char bname file containing how prog should built char pname the obfuscated program source file char oname ioccc entry output file char optarg flag option operand int flagname the name the flag int not everyone has getopt must parse args hand program argv for argc determine the flagname argv usage notreached flagname int argv determine the flag operand flagname argv optarg argv else argc usage notreached else optarg argv save the flag operand the correct global variable switch flagname case rname optarg break case bname optarg break case pname optarg break case oname optarg break default usage notreached verify that have all the required flags rname null bname null pname null oname null usage notreached return usage print usage message and exit this function does not return xvoid xusage exitval int exitval exit with this value fprintf stderr usage remarks build prog ioccc entry program fprintf stderr remarks tfile with remarks about the entry fprintf stderr build tfile containing how prog should built fprintf stderr prog tthe obfuscated program source file fprintf stderr ioccc entry tioccc entry output file exit exitval open remark open check the remark file the remark file should indented spaces and should not extend beyond column max col these are not requirements only warn this function returns null format error xfile xopen remark filename char filename file stream the opened file stream char buf bufsiz input buffer int toolong number lines that are too long int non indent number lines not indented spaces open the remark input file stream fopen filename stream null fprintf stderr cannot open remark file program filename perror return null look each line while fgets buf bufsiz stream null count lines that not start with spaces buf strncmp buf non indent count long lines col len buf max col found line that too long toolong watch for errors check stream filename eof note long lines needed toolong fprintf stderr warning line from extend beyond the column program toolong filename fprintf stderr this but would nice avoid program note non indented lines needed non indent fprintf stderr warning line from are not indented spaces program non indent filename fprintf stderr this but would nice avoid program return the open file rewind stream return stream open build open check the build file the how build file must not longer than max build size bytes this function returns null size error xfile xopen build filename char filename file stream the opened file stream struct stat statbuf the status the open file open the how build input file stream fopen filename stream null fprintf stderr cannot open how build file program filename perror return null determine the size the file fstat fileno stream statbuf fprintf stderr cannot stat how build file program filename perror return null statbuf size max build size fprintf stderr fatal the how build file bytes long program filename statbuf size fprintf stderr may not longer than bytes program max build size return null return the open file return stream open program open check the program source file the program source file must bytes the number non whitespace and chars not followed whitespace must bytes this function returns null size error xfile xopen program filename char filename file stream the opened file stream struct stat statbuf the status the open file int count special count size int the character read open the program source input file stream fopen filename stream null fprintf stderr cannot open program source file program filename perror exit determine the size the file fstat fileno stream statbuf fprintf stderr cannot stat program source file program filename perror return null statbuf size max program size fprintf stderr fatal the program source file bytes long program filename statbuf size fprintf stderr may not longer than bytes program max program size return null count the non whitespace non followed whitespace chars count while fgetc stream eof look non whitespace isascii isspace switch case count not followed eof whitespace case case peek next char fgetc stream eof isascii isspace not followed whitespace eof count ungetc stream count break default count break watch for errors check stream filename eof look the special size count max program size fprintf stderr fatal the number bytes that are non whitespace and program fprintf stderr that are not followed whitespace program fprintf stderr eof must bytes program max program size fprintf stderr bytes were found program filename count return null return the open file rewind stream return stream open output open check the entry output file this function returns null open error xfile xopen output filename char filename file stream the opened file stream open the ioccc entry output file stream fopen filename stream null fprintf stderr cannot open ioccc entry file for output program filename perror exit return the open file return stream output entry output the entry section read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section xvoid xoutput entry output oname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file char title max title len the entry title char buf max col buffer int entry entry number int ret fields processed fscanf int line the line not char skip input skip file date pipe pipe date command time epoch sec seconds since the epoch char write the start the section fprintf output entry check output oname eof not write the rule year fprintf output rule rule year check output oname eof not determine this fix printf this fix update resubmittion printf previous entry enter while get line buf buf buf printf nplease answer buf fprintf output fix check output oname eof not printf nbe sure that the title and entry number that you give printf are the same the entry you are replacing else fprintf output fix check output oname eof not write the title printf nyour title must match expression character printf followed more characters max title len printf suggested but not required that the title should printf incorporate your username the printf case multiple authors consider using parts the usernames printf the authors printf enter your title prompt and read line line get line title max title len max col printf ntitle too long please enter continue verify the pattern not everyone has regexp hand isascii int title isalnum int title title title printf ninvalid first character the title printf enter your title line else for title isascii int isalnum int printf ninvalid character the title printf enter your title line while line fprintf output title title check output oname eof not write the entry number printf neach person may submit entries per year max entry printf enter entry number from inclusive max entry get valid input line fflush stdout ret fscanf stdin entry check stdin stdin eof not skip over input until newline found skip fgetc stdin check stdin stdin eof not skip bad text input invalidate entry number entry while skip check have number and range ret entry entry max entry printf nthe entry number must between and inclusive max entry printf enter the entry number while ret entry entry max entry fprintf output entry entry check output oname eof not write the submission date returns newline epoch sec time null fprintf output date asctime gmtime epoch sec check output oname eof not write the machine host information printf nenter the machine and under which your entry was tested output till dot output oname host output remark output the remark section read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section xvoid xoutput remark output oname remark rname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file file remark stream the file containing remark text char rname name the remark file char buf bufsiz input output buffer write the start the section fprintf output remark check output oname eof not copy the remark file the section while fgets buf bufsiz remark null fputs buf output check output oname eof not check remark rname eof sure that the remark section ends with newline buf strlen buf fputc output check output oname eof not output author output the author section read the needed information from stdin and write the author section multiple authors exist multiple author sections will written xvoid xoutput author output oname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file char buf max col buffer int more auths true more authors note int auth cnt number authors processed prompt the user for the author section printf nenter information about each author your entry after printf and before the contest deadline the judges start date printf will attempt email back confirmation the first author place author information for each author individual section write the start the section fprintf output author check output oname eof not write the author printf nauthor name auth cnt while get line buf max col max col printf nname too long please enter fprintf output name buf check output oname eof not write the organization printf nenter the school company organization author auth cnt printf nauthor org auth cnt while get line buf max col max col printf nline too long please enter fprintf output org buf check output oname eof not write the address printf nenter the postal address for author sure include auth cnt printf your country and not include your name output till dot output oname addr write the email address printf nenter the email address for author use address from auth cnt printf registered domain well known site you give several printf forms list them one per line output till dot output oname email write the anonymous status printf nshould author remain anonymous enter auth cnt while get line buf buf buf printf nplease answer fprintf output anon buf check output oname eof not determine there another author printf nis there another author enter while get line buf buf buf printf nplease answer buf more auths true else more auths false while more auths true return output info output the info section read the needed information from stdin and write the info section multiple info files exist multiple info sections will written xvoid xoutput info output oname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file char infoname max file len filename buffer char yorn answer char uuname name uuencode file infile info file stream prompt the user for info information printf ninfo files should used only supplement your entry printf for example info files may provide sample input detailed printf information about your entry because they are supplemental printf the entry should not require them exist while there another info file save uuencode printf you have info file include enter while get line yorn yorn yorn printf nplease answer while yorn read the filename printf nenter the info filename while get line infoname max file len printf ninfo filename too long please enter compute the basename the info filename remove the trailing newline uuname infoname strlen infoname uuname avoid rindex shrrchr compat issues hand for uuname uuname infoname uuname uuname uuname break attempt open the info file infile fopen infoname infile null fprintf stderr cannot open info file program infoname perror continue write the start the section fprintf output info check output oname eof not uuencode the info file uuencode output oname infile infoname uuinfo mode uuname printf ndo you have another info file include enter while get line yorn yorn yorn printf nplease answer return output build output the build section read the needed information from stdin and write the build section xvoid xoutput build output oname build bname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file file build open build file stream char bname name the build file write the start the section fprintf output build check output oname eof not uuencode the program file uuencode output oname build bname uubuild mode uubuild name return output program output the program section read the needed information form stdin and write the program section xvoid xoutput program output oname prog pname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file file prog open program stream char pname name program file write the start the section fprintf output program check output oname eof not uuencode the program file uuencode output oname prog pname uuprog mode uuprog name return output end output the end section read the needed information form stdin and write the end section xvoid xoutput end output oname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file write the final section terminator fprintf output end check output oname eof not return get line get answer from stdin this function will flush stdout case prompt pending and read the answer this function returns the line too long the length the line including the newline the line was this function does not return error eof xint xget line buf siz maxcol char buf input buffer int siz length input including the newline int maxcol max col allowed disable check int length the length the input line flush terminal output fflush stdout read the line fgets buf siz stdin null report the problem check stdin stdin eof not look for the newline length strlen buf buf length int eatchar the char being eaten newline found line must too long eat the rest the line eatchar fgetc stdin while eatchar eof eatchar check stdin stdin eof not report the situation return watch for long lines needed maxcol length maxcol col len buf maxcol report the situation return return length return length output till dot output set lines until itself read this routine will read set lines until but not including single line with read the format the output leader tfirst line tnext line tnext line this routine will not return error eof xvoid xoutput till dot output oname leader file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file char leader the lead text for the first line char buf bufsiz input buffer int count lines read int done false true finished reading input instruct the user how input printf nto end input enter line with single period read lines until eof count while done issue the prompt printf count leader fflush stdout get the line get line buf bufsiz max col printf nline too long please enter continue note was read strcmp buf done true write line read something done fprintf output count leader buf check output oname eof not lines read least output something count fprintf output leader check output oname eof not return col len determine the highest that string would reach given string this routine returns that string would reach the string were printed column tab stops are assumed start xint xcol len string char string the string examine int col current column char current char scan the string for col string note the column shift col col col col return the highest column return col check check for eof error stream does not return eof error xvoid xcheck stream name eof file stream the stream check char name the name this stream int eof eof eof not test for error ferror stream fprintf stderr error program name perror exit test for eof else eof eof not feof stream fprintf stderr eof program name exit return uuencode uuencode file perform the uuencoding process identical the process performed the uuencode utility this routine implements the algorithm described the uuencode bsd reno man page xvoid xuuencode output oname infile iname umode uname file output output file stream char oname output filename file infile input file stream char iname input filename int umode the mode put the uuencode file char uname name put the uuencode file char buf uuencode len the uuencode buffer int read len actual number chars read int val bit chunk from buf char filler filler uuencode pad text char output the initial uuencode header fprintf output begin umode uname check output oname eof not clear out the input buffer for buf buf sizeof buf sizeof buf will process uuencode len chars time forming single output line each time while read len fread buf sizeof buf uuencode len infile the first character the length character fputc uuencode read len output check output oname eof not will convert bits time thus will convert sets bits into sets uuencoded bits for buf read len read len bits val fputc uuencode val output check output oname eof not bits val fputc uuencode val output check output oname eof not bits val fputc uuencode val output check output oname eof not bits val fputc uuencode val output check output oname eof not end uuencode len line fputc output check output oname eof not clear out the input buffer don depend bzero memset for buf buf sizeof buf sizeof buf check the last read the input file check infile iname eof write end uuencode file fprintf output nend uuencode filler check output oname eof not shar eof chmod mkentry echo restore mkentry failed set mkentry test then echo original size current size obfuscate info echo extracting obfuscate info text sed shar eof obfuscate info obfuscated contest information xcopyright landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education non profit use xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel xthe international obfuscated code contest ioccc the sprit xco operation willing mention other programming contents space xpermits xhow have your contest included this file you wish the ioccc judges include your contest this file send request judges toad com request that contest descriptions limited lines and not exceed bytes typically request that your contest include current description the ioccc order included this file for given year must receive current description earlier than jan utc and later than feb utc agreement publish your contest must also obtained prior feb annual contests that fail submit new entry will dropped from this file xofficial disclaimer pardon the officialese the contents noted below other than the ioccc are not affiliated with the ioccc nor are they endorsed the ioccc reserve the right refuse print information about given contest the information below was provided the particular contest organizer and printed permission please contact the contest organizer directly regarding their contents xwith that official notice given present for your enjoyment the following xinformation about contents international obfuscated contest the original obfuscated contest obfuscate cated cating cates render obscure darken confuse their emotions obfuscated their judgment llat obfuscare darken intensive lat fuscare darken fuscus dark obfuscation obfuscatory adj goals the contest write the most obscure obfuscated program under the rules below show the importance programming style ironic way stress compilers with unusual code illustrate some the subtleties the language provide safe forum for poor code the ioccc the grandfather usenet programming contests since this contest demonstrated that program that mearly works correctly not sufficient the ioccc has also done much add the arcane word obfuscated back into the english language see the new hacker dictionary eric raymond you are strongly encouraged read the new contest rules before sending any entries the rules and sometimes the contest email address itself change over time valid entry one year may rejected later year due changes the rules the typical start date for contests early march contest rules are normally not finalized and posted until the beginning the contest the typical closing date for contests are early may the contest rules are posted comp unix wizards comp lang misc misc alt sources and comp sources you not have access these groups you missed the early march posting you may request copy from the judges via email judges toad com sun uunet utzoo pyramid hoptoad judges previous contest winners are available via anonymous ftp from ftp net under the directory pub ioccc international obfuscated perl contest landon noll larry wall this content being planned someday when landon larry are not too busy they will actually get around posting the first set rules landon says yes know that said would have contest but other existing projects got the way hopefully something will developed after nov international obfuscated postscript contest jonathan monsarrat jgm brown edu alena lacova alena nikhef contest programming skills and knowledge exclusively for the postscript programming language its purpose spread knowledge postscript and its details applaud those with the best tricks prove that humans can beat those damnable machine generators their own game writing the most obscure and mysterious postscript programs ever winners will receive the fame and attention that goes with having their program entry posted winner programmers world wide the contest rules and results are available ftp wilma brown edu pub postscript obfuscated shar individually the obfuscated directory the judges will post the rules november comp lang postscript usenet and other places send questions jgm brown edu categories include best obfuscated postscript best artwork most compact best interactive program most useful and anything unusual and creative that deserves award the judges will choose the winners each category alena lacova system administrator nikhef institute for high energy and nuclear physics the netherlands she the author the postscript chaos programs which draw julia sets mandelbrot sets and other kinds fractal functions jonathan monsarrat graduate student from mit and brown university the the faq maintainer for the usenet newsgroup comp lang postscript and the author the postscript zone and lametex shar eof chmod obfuscate info echo restore obfuscate info failed set obfuscate info test then echo original size current size exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	intel based unix frequently asked questions faq archive name intel unix faq last modified mar note this major organization and replacement frequently asked questions about faq list this article includes answers what options have for software intel based unix system free options commercial options what xfree and where get what xfree what oss are supported what video hardware supported what about accelerated boards why doesn xfree support color vga modes what other hardware software requirements are there where can get source for xfree where can get binaries for xfree what general things should know about running xfree installation directories configuration files determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit what specific things should know about running xfree svr svr bsd linux mach what things should know for building xfree from source vii there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library ansiccoptions this article does not include answers general questions since these are already covered the faq that regularly posted david lewis faq craft uunet net you have anything add change the faq just let know especially you had problem that someone else was able help you with send changes steve ecf toronto edu please put faq somewhere the subject line that mail filter will put the correct mail folder please not ask questions that are not answered the faq not have time respond these individually instead post your question the net and send the question and answer together when you get frequently asked questions about intel based unix with answers what options have for software intel based unix system free options the best option xfree which enhanced version any other version will have slower performance and will more difficult compile information how obtain xfree listed below the port the server system that was done thomas roell roell sgcs com supports wide variety svga boards there are major free versions based included mit distribution you don need patch into the mit source any more the current commercial offering from sgcs see below commercial options metro link mcnab road pompano beach fax email sales metrolink com summary qnx svr svr sco unixware lynxos desqview venix isc solaris pyramid sunos ega vga svga tiga targa mach fujistu matrox microfield graphics other motif openlook xview xie imaging extension video extension audio drivers multi media sgcs snitily graphics consulting services brookgrove lane cupertino fax email info sgcs com mips zok info summary svr svr ati ultra diamond stealth svga other motif dual headed server consensys corporation pat booker universal city phone fax email info consensys com summary consensys consensys version unix system release server support for vga svga other moolit motif clients the santa cruz operation inc box santa cruz california sco unix fax email info sco com summary odt odt sco unix server support for svga tms xga assorted local bus see sco hardware compatabilty guide for actual card vendors other motif answer software consulting box columbus ohio xlab email sales coher com summary coherent greater works with any vesa compliant video note other commercial vendors including vendors describing bundled software are welcome submit summary information summary information such the above what xfree and where get what xfree xfree enhanced version which was distributed with this release consists many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements here are the highlights the enhancements the speedup package from glenn lai integral part xfree selectable run time via the xconfig file some speedups require based svga and others require virtual screen width the speedups suitable the configuration are selected default with high quality board vram this can yield improvement the xstones benchmark over the packages from jim tsillas are included the default operating mode speedup not selected this mode now equivalent performance and approximately faster than support for localconn compile time selectable for server clients both this support for both svr and svr for svr with the advanced compatibility package local connections from sco xsight odt clients are supported drivers for ati and trident tvga and tvga svga chipsets refer the files readme ati and readme trident for details about the ati and trident drivers support for compressed bitmap fonts has been added thomas eberhardt code from the contrib directory export lcs mit edu type font code from mit contrib tape has been included and compile time selectable there are contributed type fonts the contrib directory export lcs mit edu new configuration method which allows the server drivers and font renderers reconfigured from both source and binary distributions integrated support for bsd mach and linux monochrome version the server which will run generic vga cards now included the following key features were added with the release xfree they were not xfree the monochrome server has been enhanced bank switching available svga memory allow virtual screens see the manual page for more information support for the hercules mono card has been added the monochrome server and with the ability support two headed server one vga and one hercules far this has only been tested svr also reported work under linux svr shared libraries tested under isc svr and support for svr there are some special considerations consider due new usl bugs see the readme svr file for more information support for mice and logitech mouseman trackman some versions these devices were not previously compatible new tutorial how develop correct video card and monitor timing data written eric raymond derived from previous documentation and lot experimentation greatly improved support for international keyboards including implementation the compose key functionality found many vendor servers see the keybd manual page for more information the accuracy with which the server detects svga pixel clocks has been improved and the timings are now stored accuracies mhz users may want consider removing existing clocks line from their xconfig file and probing using the new server many enhancements error handling and parsing the xconfig configuration file error messages are much more informative and intuitive and more validation done there are many new options that can enabled the xconfig file see the manual page for more information the format this file plus number other small things refer the changelog file the source distribution for full details also included are tutorial monitor timing eric raymond and the current mode database and sample xdm configuration david wexelblat what oss are supported xfree supports svr consensys svr microport dell esix isc mst consensys uhc svr isc linux mach bsd bsd not supported but should work the most active bsd person greg lehey grog lemis note that esix and sco are not supported yet but anyone should feel free submit patches you are interested tackling this send mail xfree physics what video hardware supported this time xfree supports the following svga chipsets tseng tseng paradise pvga western digital these are supersets the pvga and use its driver genoa gvga trident tvga tvga ati all the above are supported both color and monochrome modes with the exception the ati chipsets which are only supported color mode the monochrome server also supports generic vga cards using video memory single bank and the hercules card the only video memory supported for the monochrome server and the gvga has not been tested with more than appears that some the svga card manufacturers are going non traditional mechanisms for selecting pixel clock frequencies avoid having modify the server accommodate these schemes xfree adds support for using external program select the pixel clock this allows programs written new mechanisms are discovered refer the readme clkprog file for information how these programs work you need write one you develop such program the xfree team would interested including with future xfree releases you are purchasing new hardware for the purpose using xfree suggested that you purchase based board such the orchid prodesigner iis avoid recent diamond boards xfree will not work with them because diamond won provide programming details fact the xfree project actively not supporting new diamond products long such policies remain effect contributions code will not accepted because the potential liabilities you would like see this change tell diamond about some people have asked xfree would work with local bus eisa video cards theoretically the means communication between the cpu and the video card irrelevant xfree compatibility could isa eisa local bus what should matter the chipset the video card unfortunately the developers don have lot access eisa vlb machines this largely untested theory however have yet see any reports things not working one these buses and have several reports xfree working fine them what about accelerated boards this time there support xfree for accelerated boards like the ati ultra tiga etc this support available commercial products from sgcs and metrolink for svr and svr server available for bsd and linux contact hasty netcom com for bsd jon robots for linux beta server available for linux contact martin unc edu jon robots note these servers are not part xfree why doesn xfree support color vga modes the reason that this not supported the way vga implements the color modes color modes each byte frame buffer memory contains pixel but the color modes are implemented bit planes each byte frame buffer memory contains bit from each each pixels and there are four such planes the mit frame buffer code not designed deal with this vga handled color modes packing bit pixels into each byte the mit code could modified support this already may not sure but for the vga way doing things complete new frame buffer implementation required some beta testers are looking into this but nothing yet available from the project what other hardware software requirements are there obviously supported svga board and are required run efficiently memory should considered minimum the various binary releases take disk space depending the whether not supports shared libraries build from sources least free disk space will required although should considered comfortable lower bound where can get source for xfree source patches for the current version based from mit are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu under contrib xfree ftp physics under xfree ftp win tue under pub xfree for the rest this faq these location will called ftp refer the readme file under the specified directory for information which files you need get build your distribution where can get binaries for xfree binaries are available via anonymous ftp from ftp physics svr binaries under xfree svr ftp win tue svr binaries under pub xfree svr ferkel ucsb edu svr binaries under pub svr xfree stasi bradley edu svr binaries under pub xfree svr blancmange utexas edu svr isc binaries under pub isc ftp prz berlin svr isc binaries under pub isc xfree tsx mit edu linux binaries under pub linux packages agate berkeley edu bsd binaries under pub bsd ports xfree ftp uwm edu mach binaries under ensure that you are getting xfree some these sites may archive older releases well each binary distribution will contain readme file that describes what files you need take from the archive and which compile time option selections were made when building the distribution what general things should know about running xfree installation directories the top level installation directory specified the projectroot usr default variable config site def binaries include files and libraries are installed projectroot bin include lib this can changed when rebuilding from sources and can modified via symbolic links for those oss that support them this directory nonstandard and was chosen this way allow xfree installed alongside commercial vendor supplied implementation configuration files the xfree server reads configuration file xconfig startup the search path contents and syntax for this file are documented the server manpage which should consulted before asking questions determining vga dot clocks and monitor modes david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com maintains database known clock settings for vga cards and monitor settings the database installed usr lib etc modedb txt and the source tree under mit server ddx etc this database also available from him for the latest copy and kept export lcs mit edu contrib modedb which updated occasionally obtain copy this database just might have the settings you need you create new settings please send them david for inclusion the database this doesn help you the videomodes doc eric raymond file with xfree contains tutorials how come with these timings may helpful start with settings that almost work and use this description get them right when you send the information david wexelblat for inclusion the database note the old clock exe program not supported any more and completely unnecessary you need determine dot clock values for new board remove the clocks line from your xconfig file present and start the server the server will probe for clocks itself and print them out you can use these values put clocks line into your xconfig file which not necessary but will speed starting the server the future rebuilding reconfiguring the server from the link kit you have installed the server binary link kit possible reconfigure the drivers and font renderers the server this fully explained the readme file that available with the link kit what specific things should know about running xfree first all the server must installed suid root mode svr why won xterm run properly your kernel not built with the consem module you should define consem you environment otherwise xterm won run csh users should use setenv consem the esix console driver patch known cause keymapping problems with xfree recommended that this patch not installed alternatively they keymap can fixed with xmodmap svr make sure you look ftp readme isc that what you are running bsd make sure you look ftp readme bsd also separate bsd faq maintained richard murphey rich rice edu the latest version should available the file xfree bsd faq the following ftp sites agate berkeley edu pub bsd ports xfree wuarchive wustl edu mirrors bsd ports xfree grasp univ lyon pub bsd ports xfree linux you must running linux greater and have the gcc jump libraries installed make sure the binaries mono xload and xterm are setuid root your kernel doesn have tcp support compiled you have run the server the default startup configuration assumes that tcp not available change the two files usr bin startx and usr lib xdm xservers removing the argument make sure dev console either link dev tty has the major number minor number also note that dev console not owned the user running then xconsole and xterm will not permit console output redirection xdm will properly change the owner but startx won when running xdm from local you will need provide with tty for example xdm dev console for more detailed information please read the file readme present with the distribution tsx mit edu mach make sure you look ftp readme mach what things should know for building xfree from source this section has been removed from the faq since fully explained ftp readme and the specific readmes please look those files for information building xfree vii there anything special about building clients with xfree bsd compatibility library lot clients make use bsd functions like bcopy etc the default configuration files are set link with libxbsd which contains emulation for bcopy bzero bcmp ffs random seed better way providing the functions include xfuncs source files that call them xfuncs provides macro definitions for these terms the sysv mem functions you are linking with vendor supplied library which calls some these functions then you should link with libxbsd ansiccoptions this something that was added allow developer get rid the ansi ness defined the default ccoptions without having rewrite the entire ccoptions line for example with stock mit you see something like ccoptions ansi fwritable strings and get rid the ansi ness the developer would have put ccoptions fwritable strings his imakefile with this change you would see default ansiccoptions ansi ccoptions fwritable strings and all the developer would have put the imakefile ansiccoptions get rid the ansi ness many clients will die horrible death with ansi the effect even more dramatic practice because ccoptions actually quite complex the other issue that one must add ansiccoptions ansiccoptions passcdebugflags definition xfree contact information ongoing development planning and support coordinated the xfree core team this time the core team consists the original gang four david dawes dawes physics glenn lai glenn utexas edu jim tsillas jtsilla damon ccs northeastern edu david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com those supporting non sysv operating systems robert baron robert baron ernst mach cmu edu mach rich murphey rich rice edu bsd orest zborowski obz kodak com linux mail sent xfree physics will reach all the core team thanks all the people who already sent corrections additions especially david wexelblat one the major contributors updates steve kotsopoulos eng mail steve ecf toronto edu systems analyst bitnet steve ecf utoronto bitnet engineering computing facility uucp uunet utai ecf steve university toronto phone
comp.windows.x	comp windows intrinsics frequently asked questions faq archive name faq version faq ware exp the toolkit intrinsics monthly posting this article contains the answers some frequently asked questions faq from comp windows about the toolkit intrinsics submit questions preferably with answer send email ware cis ohio state edu many faqs including this one are available the archive site rtfm mit edu the directory pub usenet news answers the name under which faq archived appears the archive name line the top the article this faq archived faq all code fragments are public domain contents glossary software versions related faq why does application core dump when use signals alarms cthreads how use different visual than the default which visual should application use why only shell widgets have visual which visual depth and colormap shells inherit done all the above and still get badmatch error why why doesn widget get destroyed when call xtdestroywidget how exit but still execute the destroycallbacks how resize shell widget why can xtappaddinput handle files what good books and magazines are there what widgets are available what alternatives the intrinsics are there how pass float value xtsetvalues how write resource converter how open multiple displays what changed from where are the resources loaded from what order are callbacks executed how know widget visible how reparent widget xtreparentwidget why use xtmalloc xtfree etc how debug application why don xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc work what and how can implement drag and drop glossary the intrinsics implement object oriented interface code allow useful graphical components created included with this are classes that provide the base functionality object rectobj core composite constraint shell overrideshell wmshell etc the terms and intrinsics are used interchangeably however they are used very precisely mean specific library the window system particular does not include the athena motif olit any other widget set without further widgets the intrinsics are not especially useful widget refers user interface abstraction created via the precise use any object that subclass the core class used loosely refer anything that subclass the object class although these are more accurately called windowless widgets gadgets xlib the interface the protocol one layer below the intrinsics typically widget uses relatively few xlib functions because provides most such services although understanding xlib helps with problems software versions the following are the latest versions based software software version released next expected patch none patch athena widgets see motif olit xtra none xcu none fwf related faq david lewis uunet craft faq maintains the faq posted monthly comp windows and located export contrib faq liam quin lee com posts faq list open look comp windows jan newmarch jan pandonia canberra edu posts faq list motif comp windows motif peter ware ware cis ohio state edu posts faq list for comp windows intrinsics export contrib faq why does application core dump when use signals alarms cthreads brief xlib and most widget sets have mutual exclusion for critical sections any interrupt handler likely leave one the above libraries inconsistent state such all the appropriate flags not yet set dangling pointers the middle list traversal etc note that the ansi standard points out that behavior signal handler undefined the signal handler calls any function other than signal itself this not problem specific xlib and the posix specification mentions other functions which may called safely but may not assumed that these functions are called xlib functions the only safe way deal with signals set flag the interrupt handler this flag later needs checked either work procedure timeout callback incorrect add either these the interrupt handler another note dangerous add work procedure that never finishes this effectively preempts any work procedures previously added and they will never called another option open pipe tell the event loop about the read end using xtappaddinput and then the signal handler can write byte the write end the pipe for each signal however this could deadlock your process the pipe fills why don the intrinsics deal with this problem primarily because supposed portable layer any hardware and operating system that good enough reason don think note the article the journal and the example reilly volume are error how use different visual than the default this requires more complicated answer than should window has three things that are visual specific the visual colormap and border pixmap all widgets have their own colormap and borderpixmap resource only shell widgets have visual resources another questions deals with why shells have visual the default value these resources copyfromparent which does exactly what says the shell widget copyfromparent gets evalulated defaultvisualofscreen and defaultcolormapofscreen when any one the three resources not properly set badmatch error occurs when the window created they are not properly set because each the values depends the visual being used how get this work there are two parts the answer the first you want application start with particular visual and the second you want particular shell within application start with different visual the second actually easier because the basic information you need available the first little harder because you need initialize much the toolkit yourself order determine the needed information some sample code start application using something other than the default visual compile visual visual lxaw lxmu lxt lxext run visual geometry depth visual staticcolor blue yellow you need move the mouse get the particular visuals colormap install include intrinsic include stringdefs include shell typedef struct visual visual int depth optionsrec optionsrec options xtresource resources visual visual xtrvisual sizeof visual xtoffsetof optionsrec visual xtrimmediate null depth depth xtrint sizeof int xtoffsetof optionsrec depth xtrimmediate null xrmoptiondescrec desc visual visual xrmoptionseparg null depth depth xrmoptionseparg null int main argc argv int argc char argv xtappcontext app the application context widget top toplevel widget display dpy display char xargv saved argument vector int xargc saved argument count colormap colormap created colormap xvisualinfo vinfo template for find visual xvisualinfo vinfo list returned list visuals int count number matchs only arg args cardinal cnt char name test char class test save the command line arguments xargc argc xargv char xtmalloc argc sizeof char bcopy char argv char xargv argc sizeof char the following creates dummy toplevel widget can retrieve the appropriate visual resource cnt top xtappinitialize app class desc xtnumber desc argc argv string null args cnt dpy xtdisplay top cnt xtgetapplicationresources top options resources xtnumber resources args cnt cnt options visual options visual defaultvisualofscreen xtscreen top xtsetarg args cnt xtnvisual options visual cnt now create appropriate colormap could use default colormap based the class the visual could examine some property the rootwindow find the right colormap could all sorts things colormap xcreatecolormap dpy rootwindowofscreen xtscreen top options visual allocnone xtsetarg args cnt xtncolormap colormap cnt now find some information about the visual vinfo visualid xvisualidfromvisual options visual vinfo list xgetvisualinfo dpy visualidmask vinfo count vinfo list count xtsetarg args cnt xtndepth vinfo list depth cnt xfree xpointer vinfo list xtdestroywidget top now create the real toplevel widget xtsetarg args cnt xtnargv xargv cnt xtsetarg args cnt xtnargc xargc cnt top xtappcreateshell char null class applicationshellwidgetclass dpy args cnt display the application and loop handling all events xtrealizewidget top xtappmainloop app return which visual should application use this point that can argued about but one opinion there way for application know the appropriate visual has specified the user you disagree with this then your application probably falls into the category always using the default visual hardware specific and expects some particular visual such bit truecolor with overlayplane extension some such why application runs isolation depending the way server allocates resources may not always want your application run truecolor mode going mess other applications may very upset chooses run greyscale instead psuedocolor just monochrome example low end color sun server there are many different possible visuals monochrome entry colormap static gray static color and truecolor the sgi iris offer all the above plus bit truecolor bit truecolor overlay plane why only shell widgets have visual this strictly convention makes possible for arbitrary widget know that the visual uses can found looking for the shell widget that its ancestor and obtaining the visual that shell widget can have its own visual resource does must have its own realize method use the visual when calls xcreatewindow you should also make this resource that can obtained with xtgetvalues other widgets can find reasonable value probably xtnvisual which visual depth and colormap shells inherit the default value for these resources are set copyfromparent this interpreted the defaultcolormapofscreen defaultdepthofscreen and the default visual the screen the widget has parent applicationshellwidgetclass and the root your widget tree the parent the widget not null then the shell copies colormap and depth from its parent and uses copyfromparent the visual done all the above and still get badmatch error why some resource converters improperly cache references this was especially true and earlier versions motif why doesn widget get destroyed when call xtdestroywidget see section the specification eventually does get destroyed just not immediately the intrinsics destroy widget two phase process first and all its children have flag set that indicate being destroyed then put list widgets destroyed this way any pending events further references that widget can cleaned before the memory actually freed the second phase then performed after all callbacks event handlers and actions have completed before checking for the next event this point the list traversed and each widget memory actually free among other things some further caveats trivia the widgets may destroyed the intrinsics determine that they have further references the widgets the list then the phase destruction occurs immediately also nested event loops are used widgets placed the destroy list before entering the inner event loop are not destroyed until returning the outer event loop how exit but still execute the destroycallbacks the problem simple and entirely reasonable approach exiting application used such calling exit directly then widget may not have chance clean any external state such open sockets temporary files allocated resources etc this code for simplicity reasons assumes only single toplevel widget widget toplevelget widget widget find toplevel widget top for top xtparent top top xtparent top empty return top void exitcallback closure call data widget widget xtpointer closure data the app specified xtpointer call data widget specific data widget toplevel toplevel toplevelget xtunmapwidget toplevel make disappear quickly xtdestroywidget toplevel exit one can see that the above code exit immediately after destroying the toplevel widget the trouble the phase destruction may never occur this works for most widgets and most applications but will not work for those widgets that have any external state you might think that since works now will always work but remember that part the reason object oriented approach used one can ignorant the implementation details for each widget which means that the widget may change and someday require that some external state cleaned the destroy callbacks one alternative modify exitcallback set global flag and then test for that flag private event loop however private event loops are frowned upon because tends encourage sloppy and difficult maintain practices try the following code instead include intrinsic extern widget toplevelget needfunctionprototypes widget endif extern boolean exitworkproc needfunctionprototypes xtpointer closure endif extern void exitcallback needfunctionprototypes widget xtpointer closure xtpointer call data endif widget toplevelget widget widget find toplevel widget top for top xtparent top top xtparent top empty return top void exitcallback closure call data widget widget xtpointer closure data the app specified xtpointer call data widget specific data widget toplevel toplevel toplevelget xtunmapwidget toplevel make disappear quickly xtdestroywidget toplevel xtappaddworkproc xtwidgettoapplicationcontext exitworkproc xtpointer null boolean exitworkproc closure xtpointer closure exit notreached exitcallback adds work procedure that will get called when the application next idle which happens after all the events are processed and the destroy callbacks are executed how resize shell widget after realized one doesn resize shell widget the proper thing resize the currently managed child the shell widget using xtsetvalues the geometry change then propagated the shell which asks the window manager which may may not allow the request however the shell must have the resource xtnallowshellresize set true otherwise will not even ask the window manager grant the request and the shell will not resize change the position shell use xtsetvalues the shell not the child and within the limits the window manager should granted why can xtappaddinput handle files does however unix semantics for when ready for file does not fit most peoples intuitive model unix terms file descriptor ready for reading whenever the read call would not block ignoring the setting optional flags that indicate not block this works expected for terminals sockets and pipes for file the read will always return but the return indicates eof more data the result the code the intrinsics always calls the input handler because always thinks something about read the culprit the select system call sysv based the poll system call how get around this unix system the best approach use another process check for available input the file use pipe connect the application with this other process and pass the file descriptor from the pipe xtappaddinput suitable program bsd systems tail filename rumored that select some systems not completely reliable particular ibm aix this one where would work for while several thousand times and then stop until some other event woke this seemed the result race condition the kernel ibm claims have fix for this pyramid doesn work all ultrix and possibly others where pipes are implemented sockets wasn completely broken but although the writing side wrote byte blocks the reading side received all broken was being put into the pipe byte time you can waste lot time reading small blocks get raound detecting the situation and having select ignore the pipe for mseconds then had been given the whole block note that all the above descriptions used unix terminology such read file descriptor pipes etc this dependent area and may not identical all systems however the intrinsic designers felt was common enough operation that should included with part the toolkit why they didn also deal with signals this point don know what good books and magazines are there have favorite that the definitive reference perspective offers reasonable introduction but also goes into the full details the intrinsics when started using was already familiar with and the concepts behind newcomers may may not find useful always found accurate and complete which means its pages asente paul and swick ralph window system toolkit the complete programmer guide and specification digital press isbn order number and prentice hall isbn also available through dec direct digital the other book commonly recomend novices young doug the window system applications and programming with motif version prentice hall isbn isbn and course reilly has entire series manuals and reilly ordering particular volume reference done manual page style the edition extensively overhauled and goes far beyond the mit manual pages finding very useful particular the permutted index and references other manual pages help great deal chasing down related information read two periodicals the resource and the the journal these are the only two dealing specifically with the resource published quarterly reilly with one the issues being the mit consortium technical conference proceedings there advertising found informative with pretty good depth for orders call email cathyr ora com for editorial matters email adrian ora com table contents are posted math utah edu ftp pub tex bib tex form and ftp net ftp published oreilly xresource ascii form the journal bimonthly trade rag with lots advertising the articles are informative and oriented toward less technical audience read more see what going then with expectation learning great deal but remember represent fairly small percentage people also they have pretty good collection people the advisory board and columnists call what widgets are available there are three popular widget sets athena the set provided with this sufficient for most purposes but the ugly side recently look available for ftp export lcs mit edu contrib xaw tar motif from osf available for license fee and commonly shipped many workstation vendors platforms almost everyone but sun looks good and works well but personally think poorly implemented olit the open look intrinsics toolkit set widgets implementing sun open look specification developed never used can comment its quality heard rumours that pain actually get addition the following collection widgets are also available xtra library widgets for sale from graphical software technology includes bar graph stacked bar graph line graph pie chart plot hypertext help spreadsheet and data entry form widgets never seen them can comment fwf the free widget foundation attempting collect set freely available widgets included are pixmap editor filedialog and few others the current set widgets can obtained via anonymous ftp from the machine uiuc edu the file pub fwf shar xcu the cornell university widgets from gene dykes one the early widget sets released provides nice appearance for buttons and has mini command language probably not widely used the sony widget set this was around during days but seemed disappear looked like had promise the widgets the precursor motif originally written for there exists diffs get work under again pretty good widget set but has more less died the precursor this was the xray toolkit which was originally implemented for and apparently provided much experience for the designers widget set working still primitive but you can give try archive cis ohio state edu pub the following specialized widgets are also available tbl implements tabular layout widgets supports motif widgets children part wcl plots the athena plotting widgets not the athena widgets contact gnb bby joe athena mit edu what alternatives the intrinsics are there name language vendor xview sun parcplace interviews stanford tcl sprite berkeley edu however much like and admire the skill both designing and implementing the intrinsics hopefully some alternative will develop the next years that uses object oriented language keep your eyes open and expect some change about the same time language other than starts gaining acceptance how pass float value xtsetvalues first what going wrong the structure for arg essentially typdef struct string name long value arg and the code arg arg xtsetarg arg name expands arg arg arg name name arg value you can see that with normal type conversions the arg value gets the integer instead the floating point value when the value copied into the widget resource the bit pattern wildly different than that required for floating point value how get around this the following macro from the athena widgets document and now recomending over the previous suggestions define xtsetfloatarg arg sizeof float sizeof xtargval xtsetarg arg else xtargval xtargval xtsetarg arg how write resource converter courtesy rich thomson rthomson dsd com the following discussion resource converters assumes intrinsics resource converters changed between and allow for destructors and caching converted values there are several main types resource converters string data type data type string data type data type string data type usually string data type converter has fixed set strings that will converted data type values this most often used map enumerated names enumerated values name value true false this case the string data type converter needs compare the resource value the list fixed strings this most readily accomplished the use the quark mechanism the resource manager the resource value turned into quark which unique representation the string that fits into single word then the resource quark compared against the quarks for the fixed strings representing the enumerated values there are many enumerated strings the converter many converters each with small number enumeration strings then global initialization routine might used turn all the resource strings into quarks that way the first time one these converters used the strings will turned into quarks and held static variables for use the next invocation one the converters data type string this type converter slightly easier than the string data type converters since the use quarks isn necessary instead the data type value simply converted string value probably the use sprintf data type string converters are useful for applications that wish convert internal data type value into string that they can write out valid resource specification file this mechanism can used provide snapshot application state into file this snapshot can used restore the program known state via the usual resource database mechanisms you are taking the trouble write string data type converter isn much extra effort write the data type string converter writing both the same time helps ensure that they are consistent iii data type data type this type converter used convert existing data type value another data type for instance pixel value can converted rgb data type that contains separate fields for red green and blue the type signature for resource converter follows typedef boolean xttypeconverter display xrmvalueptr cardinal xrmvalueptr xrmvalueptr xtpointer display dpy xrmvalueptr args cardinal num args xrmvalueptr fromval xrmvalueptr toval xtpointer converter data when the converter invoked the fromval argument points the source resource manager value and the toval argument points the destination resource manager value the converter data argument opaque pointer some converter specific data that specified when the converter registered the args and num args arguments allow extra information passed the converter when invoked for instance the pixel rgb structure converter discussed above would need colormap and visual arguments which lookup the pixel obtain the rgb values corresponding that pixel care must taken with the toval argument xrmvalue has the following type definition and specifies size and location for converted value typedef struct unsigned int size caddr addr xrmvalue xrmvalueptr when the converter invoked the address may point location the given size for the converted value the location can null the former case the converter should ensure that the size the destination area large enough handle the converted value the destination area not large enough then the converter should set the size the amount space needed and return false the caller can then ensure that enough space allocated and reinvoke the converter the size large enough then the converter can simply copy the converted value into the space given and return true the location null then the converter can assign the location the address static variable containing the converted value and return true when writing group converters this code often repeated and becomes convenient define macro define done var type toval addr toval size sizeof type toval size sizeof type return false else type toval addr var else toval addr caddr var toval size sizeof type return true define donestr str toval addr toval size sizeof string toval size sizeof string return false else toval addr caddr str toval size sizeof string return true inside the converter good idea perform little safety checking the num args and args arguments ensure that your converter being called properly once you have written your converter you need register with the intrinsics the intrinsics invokes resource converters when creating widgets and fetching their resource values from the resource database register converter with single application context use xtappsettypeconverter void xtappsettypeconverter context from converter args num args cache destructor xtappcontext context string from string xttypeconverter converter xtconvertarglist args cardinal num args xtcachetype cache xtdestructor destructor register converter with all application contexts use xtsettypeconverter void xtsettypeconverter from converter args num args cache destructor string from string xttypeconverter converter xtconvertarglist args cardinal num args xtcachetype cache xtdestructor destructor the intrinsics there were the routines xtappaddconverter and xtaddconverter these have been superseded xtappsettypeconverter and xtsettypeconverter whenever possible the newer routines should used when converter registered with the intrinsics cache argument specifies how converted resource values are cached xtcachenone don cache any converted values xtcacheall cache all converted values xtcachebydisplay cache converted values per display basis caching converted values that require round trip the server good idea for instance string pixel conversions the destructor argument routine that invoked then the resource destroyed either because its cached reference count has been decremented zero because the widget owning the value being destroyed xtdestructor has the following type definition typedef void xtdestructor xtappcontext xrmvalueptr xtpointer xrmvalueptr cardinal xtappcontext context xrmvalueptr xtpointer converter data xrmvalueptr args cardinal num args the destructor invoked free any auxiliary storage associated with the argument but does not actually free the storage pointed the argument itself addr the destructor passed the extra arguments that were passed the converter when the conversion was performed for instance colormap and visual arguments for the string pixel converter since the destructor would need free the allocated pixel from the colormap well the private data passed when the converter was registered sample converter code can found the following files the mit distribution mit lib converters contrib lib pext converters contrib lib pext converters how open multiple displays see multi user application software using the resource issue summer oliver jones for complete coverage the issues involved most this answer based that article nutshell one uses xtopendisplay add each display single application context and then xtclosedisplay shutdown each display and remove from the application context the real problems occur when trying close down display this can happen ways user selects quit button one the displays user has window manager send delete window message server disconnect possibly from killclient message server shutdown crash network failure assume you can deal gracefully with since merely problem translating widget display and removing that display not then read the oliver jones article the third one difficult handle the following based the oliver jones article and include here because difficult problem the difficulty arises because the xlib design presumed that error always unrecoverable and fatal this essentially true for single display based application but not true for multiple display program application that does things other than display information server when error occurs the error handler called and returns then exit happens the only way around this use setjmp longjmp avoid returning the error handler the following code fragment demonstrates this include setjmp jmp buf xiorecover void xiohandler dpy display dpy destroydisplay dpy longjmp xiorecover main setjmp xiorecover xsetioerrorhandler xiohandler xtappmainloop app context the destroydisplay something that given display pointer can back the application specific data and perform any necessary cleanup should also call xtclosedisplay for those you unfamiliar with setjmp longjmp when setjmp first called returns and save enough information the jmp buf that latter execution longjmp can return the program the same state the setjmp was just executed the return value this second setjmp the value the second argument longjmp there are several caveats about using these but for this purpose adequate some other problems you might run into are resource converters that improperly cache resources the most likely symptoms are xlib errors such badcolor badatom badfont there may problems with the total number displays you can open since typically only limited number file descriptors are available with being typical value you may also run into authorization problems when trying connect display there was much discussion comp windows about this topic november robert scheifler posted article which basically said this the way will and xlib will not change what changed from this addresses only changes the intrinsics first the general changes for each release are described then certainly incomplete list new functions added and others that are now deprecated are listed brevity primary goal much the following information retrieved from chapter the mit intrinsics manual and from reilly volume edition from addition gadgets windowless widgets new resource type converter interface handle cacheing and additional data variable argument list interface define xtspecificationrelease added with this release wmshellpart toplevelshellpart transientshellpart changed incompatibly core initialize core set values added arglist and count parameters event handlers had continue dispatch parameter added core set values almost specification changed core compress exposure changed enumerated data type from boolean core class inited changed enumerated data type from boolean constraint get values hook added extension record core initialize hook obsolete info passed core initialize shell root geometry manager added extension record core set values hook obsolete info passed core set values calling xtquerygeometry must store complete geometry added unrealizecallback xttranslatecoords actually works under from psuedo resource basetranslation added searching for app default and other files made more flexible customization resource added per screen resource database support permanently allocated strings permanetly allocated strings required for several class fields the args argument xtappinitialize xtvaappinitialize xtopendisplay xtdisplayinitialize and xtinitialize were changed from cardinal int many performance improvements this summarized from the article performance improvements release gabe beged dov the resource issue xrmstringtoquark augmented with xrmpermstringtoquark avoid string copies several fields the class record are indicated needing permanent strings using array strings for resources callback lists redesigned use less memory translation manager redesigned and rewritten takes less memory translation tables merges are faster cache action bindings keycode keysyms are cached better sharing with modifiable fields window widget translation uses less space and faster does not malloc space for widget name since quark available widget space allocated include the constraints over several example programs about reduction memory usage functions new with xtallocategc sharable with modifiable fields xtgetactionlist get the action table class xtscreendatabase return resource database for screen xtsetlanguageproc register language procedure called set locale functions new with xtappaddactionhook procedure call before every action xtappinitialize lots initialization work xtappreleasecacherefs decrement cache reference count for converter xtappsetfallbackresources specify default resources xtappsettypeconverter register new style converter xtcallcallbacklist directly execute callback list xtcallconverter invoke new style converter xtcallbackreleasecacheref release cached resource value xtcallbackreleasecachereflist release list cached resource values xtconvertandstore find and call resource converter xtdirectconvert invoke old style converter xtdisplayofobject return the display xtdisplaystringconversionwarning issue warning about conversion xtfindfile find file xtgetactionkeysym retrieve keysym modifies for this action xtgetapplicationnameandclass return name and class xtgetconstraintresourcelist get constraints for widget xtgetkeysymtable return keycode keysym mapping table xtgetmulticlicktime read the multi click time xtgetselectionrequest retrieve the selectionrequest event xtgetselectionvalueincremental obtain the selection value incrementally xtgetselectionvaluesincremental obtain the selection value incrementally xtinitializewidgetclass initialize widget class manually xtinserteventhanlder register event handler before after others xtinsertraweventhandler register event handler without modify input mask xtisobject test subclass object xtisrectobj test subclass rectobj xtkeysymtokeycodelist return list keycodes xtlasttimestampprocessed retrieve most recent event time xtmenupopdown action for popping down widget xtmenupopup action for popping widget xtoffsetof macro for structure offsets xtownselectionincremental make selection data availabe incrementally xtpoupspringloaded map spring loaded popup xtregistergrabaction indicate action procedure needs passive grab xtremoveactiohhook remove function called after every action xtresolvepathname find file xtscreenofobject return screen object xtsetmulticlicktime set the multi click time xtsetwmcolormapwindows set colormap windows for custom colormaps xtungrabbutton cancel passive button grab xtungrabkey cancel passive key grab xtungrabkeybard release active keyboard grab xtungrabpointer release active pointer grab xtva varags interfaces bunch functions xtwindowofobject return window nearest widget ancestor deprecated replacement when xtaddactions xtappaddactions xtaddconverter xtappaddconverter xtaddinput xtappaddinput xtaddtimeout xtappaddtimeout xtaddworkproc xtappaddworkproc xtconvert xtconvertandstore xtcreateapplicationshell xtappcreateshell xtdestroygc xtreleasegc xterror xtapperror xtgeterrordatabase xtappgeterrordatabase xtgeterrordatabasetext xtappgeterrordatabasetext xtgetselectiontimeout xtappgetselectiontimeout xtinitialize xtappinitialize xtmainloop xtappmainloop menupopdown action xtmenupopdown action menupopup action xtmenupopup action xtnextevent xtappnextevent xtpeekevent xtapppeekevent xtpending xtapppending xtseterrorhandler xtappseterrorhandler xtseterrormsghandler xtappseterrormsghandler xtsetselectiontimeout xtappsetselectiontimeout xtsetwarninghandler xtappsetwarninghandler xtsetwarningmsghandler xtappsetwarningmsghandler xtwarning xtappwarning xtwarningmsg xtappwarningmsg where are the resources loaded from the resources widget are filled from the following places from highest priority lowest priority args passed creation time command line arguments user per host defaults file user defaults file user per application default file system wide per application default file note that are read only once application startup the result steps single resource database used for further queries the per host defaults file contains customizations for all applications executing specific computer this file either specified with the xenvironment environment variable that not set then the file home xdefaults host used the user defaults file either obtained from the resource manager property the root window the display that not set then the file home xdefaults used typically the program xrdb used set the resource manager property please note that this should kept relatively small each client that connects the display must transfer the property size around kbyte reasonable some toolkits may track changes the resource manager but most not user may have many per application default files containing customizations specific each application the intrinsics are quite flexible how this file found read the next part that describes the various environment variables and how they effect where this file found the system wide per application default files are typically found usr lib app defaults such file not found then the fallback resources are used the intrinsics are quite flexible how this file found read the next part that describes the various environment variables and how they effect where this file found thanks oliver jones pictel com for the following you can use several environment variables control how resources are loaded for your based programs xfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath and xapplresdir these environment variables control where looks for application defaults files application initializing loads most one app defaults file from the path defined xfilesearchpath and another from the path defined xuserfilesearchpath set xfilesearchpath software installed your system such way that app defaults files appear several different directory hierarchies suppose for example that you are running sun open windows and you also have some applications installed usr lib app defaults you could set value like this for xfilesearchpath and would cause look app defaults files both usr lib and usr openwin lib wherever your openwinhome located setenv xfilesearchpath usr lib openwinhome lib the value this environment variable colon separated list pathnames the pathnames contain replacement characters follows see xtresolvepathname the value the filename parameter the application class name the value the file type this case the literal string app defaults customization resource only suffix none for app defaults language locale and codeset euc language part the territory part the display language string the codeset part the display language string let take apart the example suppose the application class name myterm also suppose open windows installed usr openwin notice the example omits locale specific lookup usr lib means usr lib app defaults myterm openwinhome lib means usr openwin lib app defaults myterm the application initializes tries open both the above app defaults files the order shown soon finds one reads and uses and stops looking for others the effect this path search first usr lib then usr openwin let consider another example this time let set xuserfilesearchpath looks for the file myterm the current working directory then for myterm the directory app defaults setenv xuserfilesearchpath home app defaults the first path the list expands myterm the second expands home app defaults myterm this convenient setting for debugging because follows the imake convention naming the app defaults file myterm the application source directory you can run the application from the directory which you are working and still have the resources loaded properly note when looking for app default files with xuserfilesearchpath for some bizarre reason neither the type nor file suffix defined and are useless with there another twist you may specify customization resource value for example you might run the myterm application like this myterm xrm customization color one your pathname specifications had the value usr lib app defaults then the expanded pathname would usr lib app defaults myterm color because the substitution character takes the value the customization resource the default xfilesearchpath compiled into usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib note some sites replace usr lib with projectroot this batch default settings the default xuserfilesearchpath also compiled into root root root root root root root either the value xapplresdir the user home directory xapplresdir not set you set xuserfilesearchpath some value other than the default ignores xapplresdir altogether notice that the quick and dirty way making your application find your app defaults file your current working directory set xapplresdir single dot all this machinery worked differently for compatibilty many people set their xapplresdir value dot followed slash what order are callbacks executed courtesy donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu the intrinsics library not guarantee order this because both the widget writer and the application writer have the ability modify the entire contents the callback list neither one currently knows what the other doing and the intrinsics cannot guarantee the order execution the application programmer cannot rely the widget writer the widget writer not required document when the widget will add and remove callbacks from the list what effect this will have therefore the functionality contained callback should independent the functionality contained other callbacks the list even though the standard the definition xtaddcallback says callback name specifies the callback list which the procedure appended you may not infer from the word appended that the callback routines are called the same order they have been added the callback list how know widget visible courtesy donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu building widget needs know visible set the visible interest field core and window completely obscured the core visible flag goes false however window iconified the flag stays set true right everything implemented correctly this demonstrates deficiency the protocol and the core widget reflecting the capabilities the protocol the deficiency that the information available one way this case inconvenient way the specification accurate the second and third paragraphs section read this section carefully the visible field will not change response iconification visibilitynotify event will not received when the window goes from viewable unviewable that when the widget ancestor unmapped that when iconification occurs this the protocol deficiency visibility state and viewable state have specific meanings the protocol see the glossary your xlib and protocol reference manual this problem with mwm there something else which needs done you see this with any window manager with window manager the problem mwm what the fastest way determine window iconified application writer keep track with global boolean action routine with translations for mapnotify and unmapnotify the shell widget which contains your custom widget the custom widget writer see the map state field returned call xgetwindowattributes these are suggestions how reparent widget xtreparentwidget you can why use xtmalloc xtfree etc unfortunately most code that calls malloc realloc calloc tends ignore the possibility returning null best handled something like ptr type malloc sizeof type ptr perror malloc xyzzy exit handle this common case the intrinsics define the functions xtmalloc xtcalloc xtnew xtnewstring and xtrealloc which all use the standard language functions malloc calloc and realloc but execute xterrormsg null value returned error handlers are not supposed return this effectively exits addition xtrealloc called with null pointer uses xtmalloc get the initial space this allows code like ptr ptr type malloc sizeof type else ptr type realloc ptr sizeof type count count written ptr xtrealloc ptr sizeof ptr count also xtfree accepts null pointer argument generally found the functions conveniant use however anytime allocating anything potentially large use the standard functions can fully recover from not enough memory errors xtnew and xtnewstring are conveniant macros for allocating structure copying string struct abc xyzzy char ptr char str abcdef xyzzy xtnew struct abc takes care type casting ptr xtnewstring str strict interpretation the intrinsics reference manual allow implementation provide functions that are not exchangable with malloc and free code such char ptr ptr xtmalloc free ptr may not work personally call any implementation that did this broken and complain the vendor common error for motif programmers use xtfree string when they should really using xmstringfree how debug application first recomend getting purify from pure software this great package for tracing memory problems sun bit pricey but still recomend excuse the marketing blurb contact support pure com for more info purify inserts additional checking instructions directly into the object code produced existing compilers these instructions check every memory read and write performed the program under test and detect several types access errors such reading unitialized memory writing past malloc bounds writing freed memory purify inserts checking logic into all the code program including third party and vendor object code libraries and verifies system call interfaces addition purify tracks memory usage and identifies individual memory leaks using novel adaption garbage collection techniques purify nearly comprehensive memory access checking slows the target program down typically factor two five alternative package that isn pricey for sun runs many unix and has pretty similar features the sentinel debugging environment this replaces malloc and several other library functions add additional checks contact cpcahil virtech vti com for more info next you are getting any sort xlib error you need run synchronous mode easily accomplished with the sync command line argument setting the variable xdebug with your debugger then set break point exit this will let you trace back the original xlib function being called you don run synchronous mode then the actual error may have occured any number calls xlib previously since the xlib calls are buffered and replies from the server are asynchronous next you are having trouble with window layout you can use the undocumented resource xtidentifywindows the class resource xtdebug cause the widget name identified with each window for example example xload xrm xtdebug true example xwininfo tree click new xload window will give the normal information but the widget name and class each window included this can help for checking the location and size errant widgets next you are having trouble with geometry managers you want test the way widget manages children you can try export lcs mit edu contrib libxtgeo tar this acts filter between any children and geometry manager and checks the behaviour both very clever idea the most unfortunate problem debugging callback while the application executing grab the keyboard mouse such from pulldown menu the server effectively locks and you need another machine and kill the debugger manually the server locks because the application being debugged has said one else can have access the keyboard but the application not stopped waiting because the debugger waiting for your commands unfortunately you can give them because all the input going your application which stopped the best way debug this kind problem with two machines your desk running the program under debugger other environment one machine and running the application the other possibly using command sequence like this othermachine xhost thismachine thismachine setenv display othermachine thismachine gdb application your favorite debugger this othermachine xhost thismachine thismachine gdb application gdb set environment display othermachine gdb run believe codecenter interpreter graphical debugger has method dealing with this explicitely calling the xlib functions release any grabs during breakpoints debugging widget problems requires pretty good debugging skills and knowledge how widgets work you can long way without knowing the internals particular widget but not very far without understanding how widget works judicious use conditional breakpoints and adding print statements with the debugger help great deal why don xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc work have got delicate problem with the three routines xtaddinput xtaddtimeout and xtaddworkproc the problem have that when use them application they seem not registred properly have made handy little testprogram where everything works perfect but real application nothing happens the introduction the xtapp functions obsoleted those routines see for other changes and what happens they use default application context different then the one you may have created since events and timeouts are distributed per application context basis and you are using two application contexts you won get those events for example cnt toplevel xtappinitialize app class desc xtnumber desc argc argv fallback args cnt xtaddtimeout xtaddworkproc xtappmainloop app would never invoke the timeout what and how can implement drag and drop courtesy roger reynolds rogerr netcom com feb drag drop buzzword for moving data between clients intuitive fashion motif version supports drag drop capabilities openlook has supported all along the two protocols are not compatable with each other and far know they are not published wrote package called rdd which designed flexible public protocol for doing drag drop operations between clients intention was provide tool which would make easy for people support standard drag drop protocol the programs they develop and contribute sell regardless what widget set used long based the implementation based upon understanding the icccm conventions for more details read the code have heard from dozens people using rdd who like and feel that works whole lot better than motif stuff also there seem many who think that neat but are constrained use motif anyway the latest rdd and some other stuff available for ftp from netcom com pub rogerr possibly older version also available export lcs mit edu contrib pete ware ware cis ohio state edu cis dept ohio state university bolz hall neil ave columbus
comp.windows.x	teleuse uim and article apr ctp com hubec ctp com hubert chou writes does anyone have any good ideas how integrate code elegantly with teleuse uim interface architect generated code source would great but any suggestions are welcome hubie chou hubec ctp com don know great deal about the support for uim but can tell you that there good support for teleuse teleuse you can call any method from module what you can then use the language for most your interface code and then use for you application code should tell you that there some real neat stuff coming out teleuse soon regard but can give you many details you should talk your local sales rep and get the lowdown what they will doing the near furture you want example code how integrates with teleuse you should look teleuse examples thermometer steve vranyes voice mail stevevr ecs comm mot com post motorola inc algonquin schaumburg
comp.windows.x	root with vue was xloadimage onroot related note how can use display colored gifs root display with vue all can with vue display xbm through their backdrop style manager does not seem able override whatever vue puts there thanks jan jan vandenbrande jan eds com new address jan lipari usc edu school address forwards uucp uunet uupsi jan
comp.windows.x	strange exposure problem trying write motif program interactive unix machine and observing very strange behavior when program attempts expose drawingarea namely some xlib operations work and some not particular the expose consist two xfillrectangle calls followed some xdrawpoint calls and for reasons unknown the point calls are failing whenever pulldown popup menu clicked and moved the rightward direction over the drawing area but after the move still some part the drawing area this also happens less consistently when the pulldown popup moved the leftward direction assuming that code not doing anything incredibly odd this server bug thanks zack smith
comp.windows.x	for have heard two packages for the that support win the first linux which free unix package the second appeal which sounds pretty good can found garbo uwusa the ftp demo dir the files are xap exe zip xap fon zip drivers zip this should get you started josh joshua weage snail spring baroda mail freenet cwru edu yfn ysu edu fidonet joshua weage all ideas are own and one elses
comp.windows.x	how avoid xopendisplay hang writing xwall simple version wall and want put message each default list displays the problem that xopendisplay hangs one the displays currently controlled xdm login screen been through the manuals and faq and don see simple way see display openable ahead time get xopendisplay fail after short period time any hints suggestions clues pointers info thanks andy moore andy ice stx com you could say lost faith the politicians they all seem like game show hosts sting
comp.windows.x	widget source code needed considering writing own widgets but like have some sample widget source code look over first where could find something like this are there any archives accessible anonymous ftp that contain such information thanks edward
comp.windows.x	converting color gif pixmap have looked through the faq sections and have not seen answer for this have motif application that have written have couple gif files pict that have scanned with color scanner now would like able convert the gif files into format that could read into application and displayed the background its main window preferably with pixmaps perhaps ximage have found functions the pbmplus program suite convert gif xbm but that monochrome and really need color have looked which reads gif and writes out several formats but have not found way write out file which can read pixmap there easy way this email responses preferred thanks mark ahlenius rtsg mot com regards mark mark ahlenius voice email ahlenius marble rtsg mot com motorola inc fax arlington hts usa
comp.windows.x	honors degrees they mean anything what has this got with comp windows justin kibell systems programmer xmelba project team collaborative information technology research institute melbourne vic internet jck jaguar catt citri edu phone australia
comp.windows.x	help building with gcc can people please send any hints building with gcc there any pitfalls avoided any hints would appreciate hearing other peoples stories this tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre advanced technology telecommunications brain bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu phone fax
comp.windows.x	reposting international obfuscated code contest rules have received number requests for reposting the international obfuscated code contest rules and guidelines also some people requested that these rules posted wider set groups sorry for the cross posting some technical clarifications were made the rules and guidelines see the diff marks the right hand edge the rules and guidelines for this year remain the same people who have already are the process submitting entries for the ioccc need not worry about these changes chongo landon curt noll chongo toad com larry bassel lab sun com bin this shell archive shar made utc chongo toad com source directory tmp existing files will overwritten this shar contains length mode name rules guidelines mkentry obfuscate info rules echo extracting rules text sed shar eof rules international obfuscated code contest rules xcopyright landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education non profit use xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel obfuscate cated cating cates render obscure darken confuse his emotions obfuscated his judgment llat obfuscare darken intensive lat fuscare darken fuscus dark obfuscation obfuscatory adj xgoals the contest write the most obscure obfuscated program under the rules below show the importance programming style ironic way stress compilers with unusual code illustrate some the subtleties the language provide safe forum for poor code xnote changes from the draft are noted change bars xrules help with the volume entries ask that you follow these rules your entry must complete program your entry must bytes length the number characters excluding whitespace tab space newline and excluding any followed either whitespace end file must your entry must submitted the following format entry xrule xfix this new entry this replaces older entry xtitle title entry see comments below xentry entry number from inclusive your entry should xdate date time submission utc see comments below xhost machine and under which your entry was tested use tab indented lines needed remark place remarks about this entry this section would helpful you were indent your remarks with spaces though not requirement also possible try avoid going beyond the column blank lines are permitted author xname your name xorg school company organization xaddr postal address use tab indented lines continue don forget include the country xemail email address from well known site registered domain you give several forms list them separate tab indented lines xanon remain anonymous publish this info info xif your program needs info file place uuencoded copy xthis section the case multiple info files use multiple info xsections your entry does not need info file skip this section build xplace uuencoded copy the command used compile build your program xin this section must uudecode into file named build the resulting xfile must bytes less program xplace uuencoded copy your program this section must uudecode xinto file named prog the resulting file must follow rule end regarding the above format the title must match the expression and must characters length suggested but not required that the title should incorporate your username the case multiple authors consider using parts the usernames the authors the date the entry section should given with respect utc the format the date should returned asctime using the locale see guidelines for more info you may correct revise previously submitted entry sending the contest email address sure set fix the entry section the corrected entry must use the same title and entry number submittion that being corrected sure that you note the resubmittion the remark well with the exception the header all text outside the above format may ignored the judges you need tell the judges something put the remark section send separate email message the judges information from the author section will published unless was given the respective author anon line credit multiple authors include author section for each author each should start with author line and should found between the entry and build sections the entry remarks should include what this program does how run the program sample args input special compile execution instructions any special filename requirements see rule and information about any data files why you think the program obfuscated note this entry submission previous entry any other remarks humorous otherwise not rot your entry remarks you may suggest that certain portions your remarks rot your entry wins award info files should used only supplement your entry they should not required exist your entry does not need info file skip the info section your entry needs multiple info files use multiple info sections one per info file you should describe each info file the remark section your entry selected winner will modified follows build incorporated into makefile and build removed prog renamed your entry title followed optional digit followed your entry compiled into file with the name your entry title possibly followed digit your entry requires that build file exist state your entry remark section the makefile will arranged execute build shell script containing the build information the name this build shell script will your entry title possibly followed digit followed needed your entry remarks should indicate how your entry must changed order deal with the new filenames the build file the source and the resulting executable should treated read only files your entry needs modify these files should make and modify copy the appropriate file this occurs state your entry remarks entries that cannot compiled ansi compiler will rejected use common extensions permitted long does not cause compile errors for ansi compilers the program must original work all programs must the public domain all copyrighted programs will rejected entries must received prior may utc utc essentially equivalent greenwich mean time email your entries apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate obfuscate toad com request that your message use the subject ioccc entry possible request that you hold off emailing your entries until mar utc early entries will accepted however will attempt email confirmation the the first author for all entries received after mar utc each person may submit entries per contest year each entry must sent separate email letter entries requiring human interaction built are not allowed compiling entry produce file files which may executed programs that require special privileges setuid setgid super user special owner group are not allowed xfor more information the judging will done landon noll and larry bassel please send questions comments about the contest apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for judges toad com submitting entries the rules and the guidelines may and often change from year year you should sure you have the current rules and guidelines prior submitting entries obtain them send email the address above and use the subject send rules one may obtain winners previous contests date via ftp from host ftp net user anonymous pass yourname yourhost dir pub ioccc last resort previous winners may obtained sending email the above address please use the subject send year winners where year single digit year year range all xchongo landon curt noll chongo toad com xlarry bassel lab sun com shar eof chmod rules echo restore rules failed set rules test then echo original size current size guidelines echo extracting guidelines text sed shar eof guidelines international obfuscated code contest guidelines hints and comments xcopyright landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education non profit use xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel xabout this file this file intended help people who wish submit entries the international obfuscated code contest ioccc for short this not the ioccc rules though does contain comments about them the guidelines should viewed hints and suggestions entries that violate the guidelines but remain within the rules are allowed even you are safer you remain within the guidelines you should read the current ioccc rules prior submitting entries the rules are typically sent out with these guidelines changes from the draft are noted change bars xwhat new the entry format better for anyway the program mkentry has been updated see entry format will reject entries that cannot compiled using ansi compiler certain old obfuscation hacks that cause ansi compilers fits are longer permitted some the new issues deal with non integral array types variable number arguments preprocessor directives and the exit function see our likes and dislikes xhints and suggestions you are encouraged examine the winners previous contests see for more information for details how get previous winners keep mind that rules change from year year some winning entries may not valid entries this year what was unique and novel one year might old the next year entry usually examined number ways typically apply number tests entry look the original source convert ansi tri graphs ascii pre process the source ignoring include lines pre process the source ignoring define and include lines run through beautifier examine the algorithm lint compile execute you should consider how your entry looks each the above tests you should ask yourself your entry remains obscure after has been cleaned the pre processor and beautifier your entry need not well under all most tests certain cases test not important entries that compete for the strangest most creative source layout need not well others terms their algorithm the other hand given two such entries are more inclined pick the entry that does something interesting when you run try avoid limiting creativity our rules such leave the contest open for creative rule interpretation real life programming interpreting requirements document customer request important for this reason often award worst abuse the rules entry that illustrates this point ironic way you plan abuse the rules suggest that you let know the remarks section please note that invitation abuse not invitation break are strict when comes the byte size limit also abusing the entry format tends annoy more than amuse realize that there are holes the rules and invite entries attempt exploit them will award worst abuse the rules and then plug the hole next year even will attempt use the smallest plug needed not smaller check out your program and sure that works sometimes make the effort debug entry that has slight problem particularly near the final round the other hand have seen some the best entries fall down because they didn work tend look down prime number printer that claims that prime number you have bug you are better off documenting noting this entry sometimes prints the power prime mistake would save the above entry and sometimes strange bug feature can even help the entry course correctly working entry best xour likes and dislikes doing masses defines obscure the source has become old tend see thru masses defines due our pre processor tests that apply simply abusing defines dfoo bar won far program that more well rounded confusion many ansi compilers dislike the following code and define define foo don expect this turn into define foo int don use such implicit type declaration int suggest that you compile your entry with ansi compiler you must use non ansi such you must avoid areas that result compile link errors for ansi compilers unfortunately some ansi compilers require array indexes integral type thus the following classical obfuscation hacks should not used this rule may relaxed future contests int char use instead string use string instead your entry uses functions that have variable number arguments careful systems implement list wide variety ways because this number operations using list are not portable and must not used assigning non list variable from list variable casting non list variable into from list variable passing list variable function expecting non list arg passing non list variable function expecting list arg performing arithmetic list variables using list structure union particular not treat list variables they were char avoid using varargs use stdarg instead you use preprocessor directives define ifdef the leading must the first character line while some preprocessors allow whitespace the leading many not because the exit function returns void some systems entries must not assume that returns int small programs are best when they are short obscure and concise while such programs are not complex other winners they serve useful purpose they are often the only program that people attempt completely understand for this reason look for programs that are compact and are instructional one line programs should short one line programs say around bytes long getting close bytes bit too long our opinion tend dislike programs that are very hardware specific are very version specific index strchr differences are but socket streams specific code likely not dump core have compiler warnings only you warn the remark header item won compile under both bsd sys abusing the build file get around the size limit obfuscate excessive use ansi tri graphs are longer than they need are similar previous winners are identical previous losers unless you are cramped for space unless you are entering the best one liner category suggest that you format your program more creative way than simply forming excessively long lines the build file should not used try and get around the size limit one thing make use several help out but quite another use bytes order try and squeeze the source under the size limit you should feel free make use the build file space but you are better off you show some amount restraint allowed whitespace and certain cases not impact your program size certain point because want get away from source that simply compact blob characters given two versions the same program one that compact blob code and the other that formatted more like typical program tend favor the second version course third version the same program that formatted interesting and obfuscated way would definitely win over the first two suggest that you avoid trying for the smallest self replicating program are amazed the many different sizes that claim the smallest there nothing wrong with self replicating programs fact number winners have been self replicating you might want avoid the claim smallest lest others know smaller one client entries should portable possible entries that adapt wide collection environments will favored don depend particular type display for example don depend color given size don require backing store client entries should avoid using related libraries and software that not wide spread use ask that such client entries restrict themselves only the low level xlib and the athena widget set libx libxaw libxmu and libxt don use tif openl toolkits since not everyone has them avoid depending particular window manager not everyone has and some people are stuck back earlier try target without requiring better yet try make your entry run all version window systems client entries should not depend particular items xdefaults you must sure note the required lines the remark section like programs that are concise and small they need something least quasi interesting pass lint without complaint not requirement but nice are portable are unique novel their obfuscation style make use number different types obfuscation make laugh and throw some types programs can excel some areas course your program doesn have excel all areas but doing well several areas really does help freely admit that interesting creative humorous comments the remark section helps your chance winning you had read many twisted entries you too would enjoy good laugh two think the readers the contest winners well creative xentry format order help process the many entries must request your assistance formatting your entries certain way this format addition allows quickly separate information about the author from the program itself see judging process have provided the program mkentry example how format entries you should aware the following warning that found mkentry this program attempts implement the ioccc rules every attempt has been made make sure that this program produces entry that conforms the contest rules all cases where this program differs from the contest rules the contest rules will used sure check with the contest rules before submitting entry you are not required use mkentry convenient however attempts uuencode the needed files and attempt check the entry against the size rules you have any suggestions comments fixes complaints about the mkentry program please send email the judges see below the following sample entry entry xrule xfix xtitle chonglab xentry xdate mon mar xhost pdp bsd pdp remark this non obfuscated obfuscated program likely not win prize but what you expect from short example author xname landon curt noll xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall box san francisco california usa xemail chongo toad com xanon author xname larry bassel xorg ioccc judging group xaddr toad hall box san francisco california usa xemail hoptoad sun lab lab sun com xanon info end typically the build file should assume that the source prog and will compile into prog entry wins will rename its source and binary avoid filename collision tradition use the name the entry title followed optional digit case name conflicts the above entry somehow won the least likely win award would use chonglab and chonglab your entry depends requires that your build source and binary files particular name please say the remark section this case applies would helpful you did one the following tell how change the filename your entry have the build file make copies the files for example prog special name need special binary special src need special source prog special src special src special name special build need special build tail build special build special build assume that will use the entry title send version your build program files that uses the name convention you should uuencode these files data sections your entry needs modify its source info binary files please say the remark section you should try avoid touching your original build source and binary files you should arrange make copies the files you intend modify this will allow people generate your entry from scratch remember that your entry may built without build file typically incorporate the build lines into makefile the build file must exist say the remark section your entry needs special info files you should uuencode them into info sections the case multiple info files use multiple info sections info files are needed then skip the info section info files are intended input detailed information that does not fit well into the remark section for example entry that implements compiler might want provide some sample programs for the user compile entry might want include lengthy design document that might not appropriate for hints file info files should used only supplement your entry for example info files may provide sample input detailed information about your entry because they are supplemental the entry should not require them exist some cases your info files might renamed avoid name conflicts info files should not renamed for some reason say the remark section info files must uudecode into the current directory they absolutely must renamed moved into sub directory say the remark section when submitting multiple entries sure that each entry has unique entry number from your first entry should have entry number with the exception the header all text outside the entry format may ignored that don place text outside the entry and expect the judges see our decoding tools aren progs you need tell the the something put the remark section send email the judges apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for judges toad com submitting entries the date should given with respect utc some systems refer this gmt gmt the format the date should that returned asctime the locale example such string thr apr this format similar the output the date command the string does not include the timezone name before the year many systems one the following command will produce similar string date date sed utc date sed gmt date sed gmt date sed you are allowed update fix revise your entry set the fix line the entry section instead sure that the resubmittion uses the same title and entry number well these are used determine which entry replaced xjudging process entries are judged larry bassel and landon curt noll entries are unpacked into individual directories the email message unpacked into individual files each containing entry section all author sections all info sections build section program section any other text including the email message headers prior judging the any other text file scanned sure does not contain useful information case the entry was malformed and did not unpack correctly information from the author sections are not read until the judging process complete and then only from entries that have won award the above process helps keep biased for against any one particular individual are usually kept the dark much you are until the final awards are given like the surprise finding out the end who won and where they were from attempt keep all entries anonymous unless they win award because the main prize winning being announced make all attempts send non winners into oblivion remove all non winning files and shred all related paper tradition not even reveal the number entries that received for the curious indicate the volume paper consumed when presenting the ioccc winners talks after the usenix announcement attempt send email the authors the winning entries one reason this give the authors chance comment the way have presented their entry they are given the chance correct mistakes typos often accept their suggestions comments about our remarks well this done prior posting the winners the wide world judging consists number elimination rounds during round the collection entries are divided into two roughly equal piles the pile that advances the next round and the pile that does not also examine the entries that were eliminated the previous round thus entry gets least two readings reading consists number actions reading the entry section reading the uudecoded build section reading the uudecoded program section reading the uudecoded info section any passing the source thru the pre processor shipping over any include files performing number beautify cleanup edits the source passing the beautified source thru the pre processor shipping over any include files later rounds other actions are performed linting the source compiling building the source running the program performing misc tests the source and binary until reduce the stack entries down about entries entries are judged individual basis entry set aside because does not our opinion meet the standard established the round when the number entries thins about entries begin form award categories entries begin compete with each other for awards entry often will compete several categories the actual award category list will vary depending the types entries receive typical category list might best small one line program best small program strangest most creative source layout most useful obfuscated program best game that obfuscated most creatively obfuscated program most deceptive code best client see our likes and dislikes best abuse ansi worst abuse the rules anything else strange that deserves award not limit ourselves this list for example few entries are good bad that they are declared winners the start the final round will invent awards categories for them necessary the final round process perform the difficult tasks reducing the remaining entries typically about down winners often are confident that the entries that make into the final round are definitely better than the ones that not make the selection the winners out the final round less clear cut sometimes final round entry good enough win but beat out similar but slightly better entry for this reason sometimes worthwhile enter improved version entry that failed win previous year this assumes course that the entry worth improving the first place more often that not select small entry usually one line strange creative layout entry and entry that abuses the contest rules some way the end traditionally pick one entry best sometimes such entry simply far exceeds any the other entry more often the best picked because does well number categories xannouncement winners the first announcement occurs summer usenix conference tradition this done during the latter part the uunet ioccc bof just prior the berkeley bsd and bsdi bof winning entries will posted late june the following groups comp lang comp unix wizards alt sources addition pointers these postings are posted the following comp sources alt sources misc misc comp sources misc comp windows winning entries will deposited into the uunet archives see below for details often winning entries are published selected magazines winners have appeared books the new hackers dictionary and shirts last but not least winners receive international fame and flames xfor more information you may contact the judges sending email the following address apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for judges toad com submitting entries questions and comments about the contest are welcome the rules and the guidelines may and often change from year year you should sure you have the current rules and guidelines prior submitting entries obtain them send email the address above and use the subject send rules one may obtain winners previous contests date via ftp from host ftp net user anonymous pass yourname yourhost dir pub ioccc last resort previous winners may obtained sending email the above address please use the subject send year winners where year single digit year year range all xchongo landon curt noll chongo toad com xlarry bassel lab sun com shar eof chmod guidelines echo restore guidelines failed set guidelines test then echo original size current size echo end part continue with part exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	reposting international obfuscated code contest rules have received number requests for reposting the international obfuscated code contest rules and guidelines also some people requested that these rules posted wider set groups sorry for the cross posting some technical clarifications were made the rules and guidelines see the diff marks the right hand edge the rules and guidelines for this year remain the same people who have already are the process submitting entries for the ioccc need not worry about these changes chongo landon curt noll chongo toad com larry bassel lab sun com bin this part multipart archive mkentry echo extracting mkentry text sed shar eof mkentry mkentry copyright landon curt noll larry bassel all rights reserved permission for personal education non profit use granted provided this this copyright and notice are included its entirety and remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission writing from both landon curt noll and larry bassel mkentry make international obfuscated code contest entry usage mkentry remarks build prog ioccc entry remarks file with remarks about the entry build file containing how prog should built prog the obfuscated program source file ioccc entry ioccc entry output file compile mkentry mkentry placed the public domain landon curt noll this software provided and without any express implied warranties including without limitation the implied warranties merchantability and fitness for particular purpose warning this program attempts implement the ioccc rules every attempt has been made make sure that this program produces entry that conforms the contest rules all cases where this program differs from the contest rules the contest rules will used sure check with the contest rules before submitting entry for more information you may contact the judges sending email the following address apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad judges not the address for judges toad com submitting entries questions and comments about the contest are welcome the rules and the guidelines may and often change from year year you should sure you have the current rules and guidelines prior submitting entries obtain them send email the address above and use the subject send rules one may obtain winners previous contests date via ftp from host ftp net user anonymous pass yourname yourhost dir pub ioccc last resort previous winners may obtained sending email the above address please use the subject send year winners where year single digit year year range all because contest rules change from year year one should only use this program for the year that was intended sure that the rule year define below matches this current year include stdio include ctype include time include sys types include sys stat logic ifndef true define true endif true ifndef false define false endif false define eof true define eof not false global limits define rule year note should match the current year define start date mar utc first confirmation received define max col max column line should hit define max build size max how build size define max program size max program source size define max program size max program source size not counting whitespace and not followed whitespace eof define max title len max chars the title define max entry len max length the entry input line define max entry max number entries per person per year define max file len max filename length for info file where send entries define entry addr apple pyramid sun uunet hoptoad obfuscate define entry addr obfuscate toad com uuencode process assumes ascii define uuencode encode str int xff define uuencode len max uuencode chunk size define uuinfo mode mode info file uuencode file define uubuild mode mode the build file uuencode file define uubuild name build name for the build file uuencode file define uuprog mode mode the program uuencode file define uuprog name prog name for the program uuencode file encode str char val the uuencoded character val xchar encode str abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz global declarations xchar program our name xlong start time the startup time forward declarations xvoid parse args xvoid usage xfile open remark xfile open build xfile open program xfile open output xvoid output entry xvoid output remark xvoid output author xvoid output info xvoid output build xvoid output program xvoid output end xint get line xvoid output till dot xint col len xvoid check xvoid uuencode xmain argc argv int argc arg count char argv the args file remark null open remarks stream file build null open build file stream file prog null open program stream file output null open output stream char rname null file with remarks about the entry char bname null file containing how prog should built char pname null the obfuscated program source file char oname null ioccc entry output file struct startup time structure check the year start time time long gmtime start time year rule year fprintf stderr warning this program applies which may differ from argv rule year year parse the command line args parse args argc argv rname bname pname oname open check the input and output files open and truncate the output file first case the same one the input files output open output oname remark open remark rname build open build bname prog open program pname output null remark null build null prog null exit output each section output entry output oname output remark output oname remark rname output author output oname output info output oname output build output oname build bname output program output oname prog pname output end output oname flush the output fflush output eof fprintf stderr flush error program oname perror exit final words printf nyour entry can found you should check this file oname printf correct any problems and verify that the uudecode utility will printf correctly decode your build file and program printf this program has been provided guide for submitters printf cases where conflicts with the rules the rules shall apply printf your responsibility ensure that your entry conforms printf the current rules printf email your entries printf entry addr printf entry addr printf please use the following subject when you email your entry printf tioccc entry all done exit parse args parse the command line args given the command line args this function parses them and sets the required name flags this function will return only the command line syntax correct xvoid xparse args argc argv rname bname pname oname int argc arg count char argv the args char rname file with remarks about the entry char bname file containing how prog should built char pname the obfuscated program source file char oname ioccc entry output file char optarg flag option operand int flagname the name the flag int not everyone has getopt must parse args hand program argv for argc determine the flagname argv usage notreached flagname int argv determine the flag operand flagname argv optarg argv else argc usage notreached else optarg argv save the flag operand the correct global variable switch flagname case rname optarg break case bname optarg break case pname optarg break case oname optarg break default usage notreached verify that have all the required flags rname null bname null pname null oname null usage notreached return usage print usage message and exit this function does not return xvoid xusage exitval int exitval exit with this value fprintf stderr usage remarks build prog ioccc entry program fprintf stderr remarks tfile with remarks about the entry fprintf stderr build tfile containing how prog should built fprintf stderr prog tthe obfuscated program source file fprintf stderr ioccc entry tioccc entry output file exit exitval open remark open check the remark file the remark file should indented spaces and should not extend beyond column max col these are not requirements only warn this function returns null format error xfile xopen remark filename char filename file stream the opened file stream char buf bufsiz input buffer int toolong number lines that are too long int non indent number lines not indented spaces open the remark input file stream fopen filename stream null fprintf stderr cannot open remark file program filename perror return null look each line while fgets buf bufsiz stream null count lines that not start with spaces buf strncmp buf non indent count long lines col len buf max col found line that too long toolong watch for errors check stream filename eof note long lines needed toolong fprintf stderr warning line from extend beyond the column program toolong filename fprintf stderr this but would nice avoid program note non indented lines needed non indent fprintf stderr warning line from are not indented spaces program non indent filename fprintf stderr this but would nice avoid program return the open file rewind stream return stream open build open check the build file the how build file must not longer than max build size bytes this function returns null size error xfile xopen build filename char filename file stream the opened file stream struct stat statbuf the status the open file open the how build input file stream fopen filename stream null fprintf stderr cannot open how build file program filename perror return null determine the size the file fstat fileno stream statbuf fprintf stderr cannot stat how build file program filename perror return null statbuf size max build size fprintf stderr fatal the how build file bytes long program filename statbuf size fprintf stderr may not longer than bytes program max build size return null return the open file return stream open program open check the program source file the program source file must bytes the number non whitespace and chars not followed whitespace must bytes this function returns null size error xfile xopen program filename char filename file stream the opened file stream struct stat statbuf the status the open file int count special count size int the character read open the program source input file stream fopen filename stream null fprintf stderr cannot open program source file program filename perror exit determine the size the file fstat fileno stream statbuf fprintf stderr cannot stat program source file program filename perror return null statbuf size max program size fprintf stderr fatal the program source file bytes long program filename statbuf size fprintf stderr may not longer than bytes program max program size return null count the non whitespace non followed whitespace chars count while fgetc stream eof look non whitespace isascii isspace switch case count not followed eof whitespace case case peek next char fgetc stream eof isascii isspace not followed whitespace eof count ungetc stream count break default count break watch for errors check stream filename eof look the special size count max program size fprintf stderr fatal the number bytes that are non whitespace and program fprintf stderr that are not followed whitespace program fprintf stderr eof must bytes program max program size fprintf stderr bytes were found program filename count return null return the open file rewind stream return stream open output open check the entry output file this function returns null open error xfile xopen output filename char filename file stream the opened file stream open the ioccc entry output file stream fopen filename stream null fprintf stderr cannot open ioccc entry file for output program filename perror exit return the open file return stream output entry output the entry section read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section xvoid xoutput entry output oname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file char title max title len the entry title char buf max col buffer int entry entry number int ret fields processed fscanf int line the line not char skip input skip file date pipe pipe date command time epoch sec seconds since the epoch char write the start the section fprintf output entry check output oname eof not write the rule year fprintf output rule rule year check output oname eof not determine this fix printf this fix update resubmittion printf previous entry enter while get line buf buf buf printf nplease answer buf fprintf output fix check output oname eof not printf nbe sure that the title and entry number that you give printf are the same the entry you are replacing else fprintf output fix check output oname eof not write the title printf nyour title must match expression character printf followed more characters max title len printf suggested but not required that the title should printf incorporate your username the printf case multiple authors consider using parts the usernames printf the authors printf enter your title prompt and read line line get line title max title len max col printf ntitle too long please enter continue verify the pattern not everyone has regexp hand isascii int title isalnum int title title title printf ninvalid first character the title printf enter your title line else for title isascii int isalnum int printf ninvalid character the title printf enter your title line while line fprintf output title title check output oname eof not write the entry number printf neach person may submit entries per year max entry printf enter entry number from inclusive max entry get valid input line fflush stdout ret fscanf stdin entry check stdin stdin eof not skip over input until newline found skip fgetc stdin check stdin stdin eof not skip bad text input invalidate entry number entry while skip check have number and range ret entry entry max entry printf nthe entry number must between and inclusive max entry printf enter the entry number while ret entry entry max entry fprintf output entry entry check output oname eof not write the submission date returns newline epoch sec time null fprintf output date asctime gmtime epoch sec check output oname eof not write the machine host information printf nenter the machine and under which your entry was tested output till dot output oname host output remark output the remark section read the needed information form stdin and write the entry section xvoid xoutput remark output oname remark rname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file file remark stream the file containing remark text char rname name the remark file char buf bufsiz input output buffer write the start the section fprintf output remark check output oname eof not copy the remark file the section while fgets buf bufsiz remark null fputs buf output check output oname eof not check remark rname eof sure that the remark section ends with newline buf strlen buf fputc output check output oname eof not output author output the author section read the needed information from stdin and write the author section multiple authors exist multiple author sections will written xvoid xoutput author output oname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file char buf max col buffer int more auths true more authors note int auth cnt number authors processed prompt the user for the author section printf nenter information about each author your entry after printf and before the contest deadline the judges start date printf will attempt email back confirmation the first author place author information for each author individual section write the start the section fprintf output author check output oname eof not write the author printf nauthor name auth cnt while get line buf max col max col printf nname too long please enter fprintf output name buf check output oname eof not write the organization printf nenter the school company organization author auth cnt printf nauthor org auth cnt while get line buf max col max col printf nline too long please enter fprintf output org buf check output oname eof not write the address printf nenter the postal address for author sure include auth cnt printf your country and not include your name output till dot output oname addr write the email address printf nenter the email address for author use address from auth cnt printf registered domain well known site you give several printf forms list them one per line output till dot output oname email write the anonymous status printf nshould author remain anonymous enter auth cnt while get line buf buf buf printf nplease answer fprintf output anon buf check output oname eof not determine there another author printf nis there another author enter while get line buf buf buf printf nplease answer buf more auths true else more auths false while more auths true return output info output the info section read the needed information from stdin and write the info section multiple info files exist multiple info sections will written xvoid xoutput info output oname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file char infoname max file len filename buffer char yorn answer char uuname name uuencode file infile info file stream prompt the user for info information printf ninfo files should used only supplement your entry printf for example info files may provide sample input detailed printf information about your entry because they are supplemental printf the entry should not require them exist while there another info file save uuencode printf you have info file include enter while get line yorn yorn yorn printf nplease answer while yorn read the filename printf nenter the info filename while get line infoname max file len printf ninfo filename too long please enter compute the basename the info filename remove the trailing newline uuname infoname strlen infoname uuname avoid rindex shrrchr compat issues hand for uuname uuname infoname uuname uuname uuname break attempt open the info file infile fopen infoname infile null fprintf stderr cannot open info file program infoname perror continue write the start the section fprintf output info check output oname eof not uuencode the info file uuencode output oname infile infoname uuinfo mode uuname printf ndo you have another info file include enter while get line yorn yorn yorn printf nplease answer return output build output the build section read the needed information from stdin and write the build section xvoid xoutput build output oname build bname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file file build open build file stream char bname name the build file write the start the section fprintf output build check output oname eof not uuencode the program file uuencode output oname build bname uubuild mode uubuild name return output program output the program section read the needed information form stdin and write the program section xvoid xoutput program output oname prog pname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file file prog open program stream char pname name program file write the start the section fprintf output program check output oname eof not uuencode the program file uuencode output oname prog pname uuprog mode uuprog name return output end output the end section read the needed information form stdin and write the end section xvoid xoutput end output oname file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file write the final section terminator fprintf output end check output oname eof not return get line get answer from stdin this function will flush stdout case prompt pending and read the answer this function returns the line too long the length the line including the newline the line was this function does not return error eof xint xget line buf siz maxcol char buf input buffer int siz length input including the newline int maxcol max col allowed disable check int length the length the input line flush terminal output fflush stdout read the line fgets buf siz stdin null report the problem check stdin stdin eof not look for the newline length strlen buf buf length int eatchar the char being eaten newline found line must too long eat the rest the line eatchar fgetc stdin while eatchar eof eatchar check stdin stdin eof not report the situation return watch for long lines needed maxcol length maxcol col len buf maxcol report the situation return return length return length output till dot output set lines until itself read this routine will read set lines until but not including single line with read the format the output leader tfirst line tnext line tnext line this routine will not return error eof xvoid xoutput till dot output oname leader file output entry output file stream char oname name the output file char leader the lead text for the first line char buf bufsiz input buffer int count lines read int done false true finished reading input instruct the user how input printf nto end input enter line with single period read lines until eof count while done issue the prompt printf count leader fflush stdout get the line get line buf bufsiz max col printf nline too long please enter continue note was read strcmp buf done true write line read something done fprintf output count leader buf check output oname eof not lines read least output something count fprintf output leader check output oname eof not return col len determine the highest that string would reach given string this routine returns that string would reach the string were printed column tab stops are assumed start xint xcol len string char string the string examine int col current column char current char scan the string for col string note the column shift col col col col return the highest column return col check check for eof error stream does not return eof error xvoid xcheck stream name eof file stream the stream check char name the name this stream int eof eof eof not test for error ferror stream fprintf stderr error program name perror exit test for eof else eof eof not feof stream fprintf stderr eof program name exit return uuencode uuencode file perform the uuencoding process identical the process performed the uuencode utility this routine implements the algorithm described the uuencode bsd reno man page xvoid xuuencode output oname infile iname umode uname file output output file stream char oname output filename file infile input file stream char iname input filename int umode the mode put the uuencode file char uname name put the uuencode file char buf uuencode len the uuencode buffer int read len actual number chars read int val bit chunk from buf char filler filler uuencode pad text char output the initial uuencode header fprintf output begin umode uname check output oname eof not clear out the input buffer for buf buf sizeof buf sizeof buf will process uuencode len chars time forming single output line each time while read len fread buf sizeof buf uuencode len infile the first character the length character fputc uuencode read len output check output oname eof not will convert bits time thus will convert sets bits into sets uuencoded bits for buf read len read len bits val fputc uuencode val output check output oname eof not bits val fputc uuencode val output check output oname eof not bits val fputc uuencode val output check output oname eof not bits val fputc uuencode val output check output oname eof not end uuencode len line fputc output check output oname eof not clear out the input buffer don depend bzero memset for buf buf sizeof buf sizeof buf check the last read the input file check infile iname eof write end uuencode file fprintf output nend uuencode filler check output oname eof not shar eof chmod mkentry echo restore mkentry failed set mkentry test then echo original size current size obfuscate info echo extracting obfuscate info text sed shar eof obfuscate info obfuscated contest information xcopyright landon curt noll larry bassel xall rights reserved permission for personal education non profit use xgranted provided this this copyright and notice are included its entirety xand remains unaltered all other uses must receive prior permission writing xfrom both landon curt noll and larry bassel xthe international obfuscated code contest ioccc the sprit xco operation willing mention other programming contents space xpermits xhow have your contest included this file you wish the ioccc judges include your contest this file send request judges toad com request that contest descriptions limited lines and not exceed bytes typically request that your contest include current description the ioccc order included this file for given year must receive current description earlier than jan utc and later than feb utc agreement publish your contest must also obtained prior feb annual contests that fail submit new entry will dropped from this file xofficial disclaimer pardon the officialese the contents noted below other than the ioccc are not affiliated with the ioccc nor are they endorsed the ioccc reserve the right refuse print information about given contest the information below was provided the particular contest organizer and printed permission please contact the contest organizer directly regarding their contents xwith that official notice given present for your enjoyment the following xinformation about contents international obfuscated contest the original obfuscated contest obfuscate cated cating cates render obscure darken confuse their emotions obfuscated their judgment llat obfuscare darken intensive lat fuscare darken fuscus dark obfuscation obfuscatory adj goals the contest write the most obscure obfuscated program under the rules below show the importance programming style ironic way stress compilers with unusual code illustrate some the subtleties the language provide safe forum for poor code the ioccc the grandfather usenet programming contests since this contest demonstrated that program that simply works correctly not sufficient the ioccc has also done much add the arcane word obfuscated back into the english language see the new hacker dictionary eric raymond you are strongly encouraged read the new contest rules before sending any entries the rules and sometimes the contest email address itself change over time valid entry one year may rejected later year due changes the rules the typical start date for contests early march contest rules are normally not finalized and posted until the beginning the contest the typical closing date for contests are early may the rules and the guidelines may and often change from year year you should sure you have the current rules and guidelines prior submitting entries obtain them send email the address above and use the subject send rules one may obtain winners previous contests date via ftp from host ftp net user anonymous pass yourname yourhost dir pub ioccc last resort previous winners may obtained sending email the above address please use the subject send year winners where year single digit year year range all international obfuscated perl contest landon noll larry wall this content being planned someday when landon larry are not too busy they will actually get around posting the first set rules landon says yes know that said would have contest but other existing projects got the way hopefully something will developed after nov international obfuscated postscript contest jonathan monsarrat jgm brown edu alena lacova alena nikhef contest programming skills and knowledge exclusively for the postscript programming language its purpose spread knowledge postscript and its details applaud those with the best tricks prove that humans can beat those damnable machine generators their own game writing the most obscure and mysterious postscript programs ever winners will receive the fame and attention that goes with having their program entry posted winner programmers world wide the contest rules and results are available ftp wilma brown edu pub postscript obfuscated shar individually the obfuscated directory the judges will post the rules november comp lang postscript usenet and other places send questions jgm brown edu categories include best obfuscated postscript best artwork most compact best interactive program most useful and anything unusual and creative that deserves award the judges will choose the winners each category alena lacova system administrator nikhef institute for high energy and nuclear physics the netherlands she the author the postscript chaos programs which draw julia sets mandelbrot sets and other kinds fractal functions jonathan monsarrat graduate student from mit and brown university the the faq maintainer for the usenet newsgroup comp lang postscript and the author the postscript zone and lametex shar eof chmod obfuscate info echo restore obfuscate info failed set obfuscate info test then echo original size current size exit sunnyvale residents vote landon noll for sunnyvale city council seat
comp.windows.x	problem with xvertext package article mar sierra com dkarr sierra com david karr writes might have need the future display rotated text noticed the xvertext package the net looks very good but has one slight problem the api assumes you have font name not already loaded font shouldn too difficult split the function into two interface routines one with font name and one with xfontstruct but thought would ask the author alan richardson mppa sussex syma first case was planning this already unfortunately his email address bounced does alan the current maintainer xvertext see this the mail address you mentioned above for use with the you know the brits everything backwards the real address from the states mppa syma sussex give try harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown extrel com ftms brown astroatc uucp wisc edu
comp.windows.x	gadgets widgets motif managers take very simplistic approach the way they handle events for gadgets they track for all events such motion notify wether not the gadget expresses interest the events result gadgets typically generate great deal more network traffic those with terminals might find noticable network performance drop result really what the point using gadgets then case memory network performance tradeoff gadgets save both client and server memory but memory easily expandable while network performance not were designing motif would least make possible avoid using gadgets present you really don have choice because motif forces you use gadgets menus and various other places adrian nye reilly and associates inc been using the xmgraph widget that been floating around and noticed the performance significantly better using gadgets perhaps even faster had heard old programming course that gadgets were longer any benefit performance and that just well use widgets everywhere why would pushbutton gadgets lot quicker than pushbuttons the graph should start putting gadgets back into long pulldown menus xmgraph manages children connected xmarc widgets directed network type graph with automatic layout capability bill schlumberger geco prakla internet kayser delft sgp slb com
comp.windows.x	trouble compiling sunos epstein trwacs trw com jeremy epstein writes dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes description compiling problems deleted gcc fpcc struct return bmtoa bmtoa funroll loops lib xmu lxmu lib extensions lib lib afs cfa syste sun usr head lib undefined symbol xgetvisualinfo xfree xinternatom etc there bug sunos which alluded the faq although there talking about being affected you need force libxmu linked statically rather than dynamically which works around the linker error the simplest thing edit each the makefiles where there failure and change the line which reads xmulib xmusrc lxmu xmulib xmusrc bstatic lxmu bdynamic this only relevant for openwindows shipped with sunos not relevant for mit mit should compile without problems casper
comp.windows.x	help building with gcc article apr etrog citri edu tim kimba catt citri edu tim liddelow writes can people please send any hints building with gcc there any pitfalls avoided any hints would appreciate hearing other peoples stories this have been building with gcc since and the only time had trouble was when the position independant code option broke couldn use gcc build sun shared libraries the important thing follow the tips given the gcc release gcc generates code that requires libgcc and you should take that into account when deciding which compiler use for the libraries michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom stockholm
comp.windows.x	getting pseudo tty motif about write application motif that will require the embedding pseudo tty before invent the wheel has anyone written gotten motif widget that does the job otherwise would appreciate any pointers make such beast environment motif and motif this helps thanks advance arthur lim email arthur mailhost scs com
comp.windows.x	experiences desqview need have pcs and sparcstations run the same application namely microsoft project the original system ran the now needs expanded allow unix users work with the application the current proposal use desqview display server for the application would like know your experiences with using desqview run application and displaying sparcstation heard that the network traffic slow replies only mail please thanks advance willie willie wilson analog com
comp.windows.x	teleuse uim and does anyone have any good ideas how integrate code elegantly with teleuse uim interface architect generated code source would great but any suggestions are welcome understanding that the next release uim due out last february has full support for use xdesigner which does not have the interpreter meta languages these other tools but does fully support code generation reusable templates via classes which are generated variety other handy features for using and layout functions different ways and generates motif code including drag drop internationalization etc fits quite nicely with doug young paradigm for motif available the from corp europe from imperial software london see faq for details bill schlumberger geco prakla kayser delft sgp slb com
comp.windows.x	private colormaps widget creation you are right supposing that the problem with the xmncolormap xtncolormap for truly literate beings not being set what you want start your application with your new colormap this can chicken and egg sort problem however you look the faq there example that should show how can done not let know and maybe can improve the example pete pete ware ware cis ohio state edu cis dept ohio state university bolz hall neil ave columbus
comp.windows.x	xtshellstrings xtstrings hello does somebody know the functions xtshellstrings and xtstrings haven found them any librarys not nor and need them install tool any hints greatly appreciated please reply via mail thanks advance christian wilk seen things you people wouldn believe technical university munich attack ships fire off the shoulder orion munich germany watched beams glitter the dark near the tannhauser gate all those moments will lost wilk informatik muenchen time like tears rain time die roy batty
comp.windows.x	xtshellstrings xtstrings article apr informatik muenchen wilk informatik muenchen christian wilk writes hello does somebody know the functions xtshellstrings and xtstrings haven found them any librarys not nor and need them install tool any hints greatly appreciated please reply via mail they aren functions they are character arrays the standard strings are either defined string constants character pointers into xtshellstrings and xtstrings determined xtstringdefines your libraries were compiled with this defined and your application with undefined simply recompile one the other probably worth adding dxtstringdefines your cflags michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom stockholm
comp.windows.x	xbell have program produces continuous tone calling xbell repeatedly interval equal the duration the bell run more than once display the tones are buffered the server and the tone contunues after all occurrences the program have exited there convenient way preventing this emptying the server bell buffer when each program exits disclaimer please note that the above personal view and should not construed official comment from the jet project
comp.windows.x	honors degrees they mean anything article tkld apr burns cogsci tkld cogsci kevin davidson writes opinion programming degree still worth having yes but degree not programming degree does anybody know computing course where programming taught computer science branch maths the course did was also done software engineering course much more practical and likely the sort thing employer really wants rather than what they think they want but also did not teach programming the ability program was entry requirement robert gordon university programming was the main most time consuming start the course the first two years consisted five subjects software engineering pascal unix computer engineering assembler computer theory lisp prolog mathematics statistics and communication skills how pass interviews intelligence tests and group discussions how survive helicopter crash the north sea the third year industrial placement was spent working for computer company for year the company could anywhere europe there was special travel allowance scheme cover the visiting costs professors the fourth year included operating systems modula software engineering assembler real time laboratory assembler and computing theory lisp there were also group projects and years where students worked teams select their own project decide work for outside company the only disadvantage being that specifications would change suddenly the first four years there was weighting between courseworks and exams for most subjects however the honours year this was reduced split between individual project and final exams coursework assessment are all computer science courses like this btw started off with students our first year and were left with honours year also every course tutored separately not easy trying sleep when you are student class cheers michael michael robb tel the problem with bolt software engineer fax software making sure the spider systems limited mail bolts are the right size edinburgh michaelr spider anonymous
comp.windows.x	comp windows frequently asked questions faq archive name faq part last modified subject where can get based plotting program these usually are available from uucp sites such uunet other sites marked please consult the archie server find more recent versions gnuplot xplot postscript and bunch other drivers export lcs mit edu and elsewhere contrib gnuplot tar plot output only comp sources unix volume graph yallara rmit pub graph tar comp sources unix volume pdraw drawplot and scam berkeley edu src local dplot tar scam berkeley edu src local contour tar scam berkeley edu src local drawplot tar uunet ftp contrib drawplot tar xgraph plot zoom outputs hpgl shambhala berkeley edu pub xgraph tar sun ruf uni freiburg contrib xgraph tar nisc jvnc net pub xgraph tar comp sources volume many other sites ace formerly xvgr and xmgr plotting tools ftp ccalmr ogi edu xview version ccalmr pub acegr xvgr tar motif version ccalmr pub acegr xmgr tar mirrored export contrib acegr xgobi interactive dynamic scatter plotting tool from bellcore lib stat cmu edu general xgobi log statlib with your email the password send email statlib lib stat cmu edu containing the one line message send xgobi from general information from debby swayne dfs bellcore com robot scientific xview based graph plotting and data analysis tool ftp astro psu edu pub astrod robotx tar plotmtv multi purpose plotter tanqueray berkeley edu pub plotmtv tar thanks part emv com vielmetti geoff veritas com geoffrey leach paul scowen spacsun rice edu black beno css gov mike black subject where can get based spreadsheet version for and which supports lotus files available from vernam uwm edu xspread tar also includes graphing functions information soft eng uwm edu the gnu package oleo available prep mit edu pub gnu oleo tar can generate postscript renditions spreadsheets also several the below are part integrated office productivity tools which may also include word processing email conferencing image processing and drawing painting among other features vendor product contact information access technology informix wingz quality software products calc exclaim unipress calc uniplex uniplex digital decdecision digital applix aster applix ais xess info ais com bbn software products bbn slate slate offer bbn com elsid software systems ripcam sas the sas institute now has spreadsheet module the version available the current popular risc platforms subject where can get based project management software vendor product contact information productivity solutions ultra planner quality software products masterplan version sales qsp com digital tools inc autoplan nasa compass service cossack cosmic uga edu gec marconi software systems gecomo plus gec marconi software systems size plus tei inc vue mantix cascade advanced management solutions schedule publisher auburn university thanks pete phillips pete egh thanks atul chhabra atul nynexst com subject where can get based postscript previewer ghostscript distributed the free software foundation and includes postscript interpreter and library graphics primitives version now available the major site prep mit edu gspreview the computing laboratory the university kent canterbury user interface wcl based the ghostscript interpreter the source available for anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu gspreview tar ghostview tim theisen tim wisc edu full function user interface for ghostscript check ftp wisc edu prep mit edu for pub ghostview tar there are also several executables available ftp wisc edu pub ghostview exe for various architectures also scriptworks harlequin software package for previewing and printing postscript descriptions text and graphics images previewers for are available for information call send email scriptworks request harlqn image network xps supports the full postscript language and renders color grayscale monochrome fonts displayed are anti aliased info image network digital dxpsview runs uws and sun pageview runs with the news server subject where can get based gks package the latest freely available xgks can obtained from xgks request unidata ucar edu this implementation derived from the contrib xgks from ibm and the university illinois the release unidata ucar edu pub xgks tar addition grafpak gks available from advanced technology center gksul available from gks ulowell edu ulowell department implementation which includes drivers for variety devices can passed window use the package includes both and fortran bindings from dsrand mitre org and from stew hanauma stanford edu xgkswidget produced neil bowers neilb leeds dcs neilb dcs leeds the latest conforms with the new version xgks available export contrib xgks widget tar subject where can get based pex package the first official release pex with fix brings the sample implementation server version the final pex protocol specification now available via anonymous ftp export lcs mit edu the directory pub docs pex changes made from the public review draft are listed the file changes that directory the final pexlib document export pub docs pexlib there now available from the university illinois implementation the pex specification called uipex contains near complete implementation phigs and phigs plus the file pub uipex uipex tar uiuc edu the porting platform was running questions and comments can uipex uiuc edu addition the pext toolkit rich thomson rthomson dsd com available export pext tar includes pex widget making easier include pex based programs subject where can get based tex dvi previewer the xtex previewer for tex files available from number archive sites including uunet the current version usually ftp colorado edu seetex tar pre converted fonts are also that machine the distribution all includes mftobdf which converts and pxl fonts bdf format where they can then compiled for use your local server the xdvi dvi previewer fairly comprehensive and easy use also available from number sites including uunet and export lcs mit edu current version patchlevel subject where can get based troff previewer has two previewers for device independent troff the supported client xditview and the contributed but well maintained xtroff earlier version xtroff also appeared the contributed source xditview also the distribution addition the xman client can used preview troff documents which use the man macros man pages psroff used its output can viewed with postscript previewer addition xproof previewer for ditroff has been contributed marvin solomon solomon wisc edu version available export contrib xproof elan computer group produces eroff modified troff implementation and elan express eroff previewer softquad usa only mail net mail com offers softquad publishing software including substantially rewritten troff formatter better intermediate language with backwards compatibility and previewer this the package adopted own mis department and used and sold many parts information from ian darwin softquad ian com image network toxroff offers the xroff package which includes fine modified troff implementation and set based page previewers this the package oem several hardware vendors mostly courtesy moraes toronto edu mark moraes subject where can get wysiwyg interface builder new release the dirt interface builder richard hesketh works with and includes some support for the motif widget set from the readme this builder allows the interactive creation and rapid prototyping user interfaces using the toolkit and number widget sets dirt generates widget creation resource files and this distribution also includes the widget creation library version with the exception the demos and mri ari source code with the kind permission its author david smyth check dirt readme dirt tar and dirt export lcs mit edu the interviews toolkit contains wysiwig interface builder called ibuild ibuild generates code for interviews application complete with imakefile and resource file documentation pub papers ibuild interviews stanford edu quest windows objectviews package includes interactive building tool druid demonstrational rapid user interface development runs sparc machines using osf motif intended eventually full uims but apparently now has only support for creating the presentation components for which generates uil code info singh kok ngan druid system for demonstrational rapid user interface development proc acm siggraph symp user interface software and technology uist acm the byo interface builder implemented tcl also addition these commercial products unsorted are available final prerelease form the following the product name indicates that the product known allow the designer specify for each widget whether particular resource hard coded written application defaults file for least one form output some are much more than user interface tools some are full user interface management systems information most not date product name look feel code output vendor interface motif visual edge architect uimx open look express open look xol helper lib visual edge uimx motif helper code visual edge distributors vuit motif uil dec digital designer motif uil imperial software technology ltd sales ist xfacemaker xfm motif script like procedural language uil nsl requests nsl builder xcessory motif uil ics ada info ics com xbuild motif uil nixdorf xbuild nixdorf com ixbuild motif uil ixos software karl ixos uucp teleuse motif uil telesoft gui info telesoft com ezx motif helper lib uil ada sunrise info sunrise com snapix motif adnt openwindows developers open look gil xview sun guide gil xview gil olit gil postscript for tnt exocode sxm motif expert object exocode plus open look xview tae motif tcl tae control language like uil needs helper library vax fortran ada nasa goddard mob xsculptor motif openlook uil xol kovi psm msw uil lancorp motif mac pty ltd fax australia motifation motif aka edv fax uib open look motif parcplace look for magazine reviews for more complete comparisons meta file formats documentation real ease use etc unix world and unix review often carry articles addition neuron data makes open interface window system independent object toolkit which supports interfaces which are resemble supersets mac windows and motif and open look the package includes interface builder addition the grammi builder supports the development ada applications using its own set objects which are planned have motif look grammi written ada and generates ada specs and stub bodies grammi addition these non wysiwyg but related products may help for goals rapid prototyping the application interface wcl the widget creation library basically describes the widget hierarchy and actions resources file available from fine archive servers everywhere including devvax jpl nasa gov pub wcl provides very thin layer over without any internal tweaking version current winterp xlisp based motif toolkit allows for interpretive programming the copy the tape outdated get copy off export email winterp source hplnpm hplabs com the serpent uims permits the building user interfaces without specific knowledge coding but with understanding attributes being set particular motif widget beta release available from ftp sei cmu edu and can found pub serpent serpent also available export lcs mit edu contrib serpent email questions can serpent sei cmu edu commercial version serpent available agora from aset woodhaven drive pittsburgh garnet common lisp based gui toolkit information available from garnet cmu edu metacard hypertext rapid application development environment similar apple claris corporation hypercard info metacard com metacard available via anonymous ftp from ftp metacard com csn org subject where can find tools callable from shell scripts want have shell script pop menus and yes dialog boxes the user running several tools the contrib area were developed satisfy these needs yorn pops yes box xmessage displays string etc there are several versions these tools few any have made the contrib area though they may still available various archive sites addition richard hesketh rlh ukc has posted the xmenu package comp sources xmenu for choices two versions xprompt have been posted comp sources the latter being unauthorized rewrite forsman thoth reef cis ufl edu there version xmenu available from comp sources being worked and will likely released tar xpick tar and xzap tar export contrib are tools gerry tomlinson newcastle which act versions the simple display and choice making tools xtpanel lets the user build panel containing interactive objects such buttons sliders text fields etc either from the command line using simple scripting language available for anonymous ftp from hanauma stanford edu pub xtpanel tar and may also found the alt sources archives subject where can get based debugger xdbx interface the dbx debugger available via ftp from export the current version patchlevel interface gdb called xxgdb more like xdbx part comp sources volume xxgdb tar export mxgdb motif interface gdb jim tsillas jtsillas bubba bull com version was released ups source level debugger which runs under the and sunview window systems sun and dec platforms available from export contrib ups tar also ups patch and unix hensa pub misc unix ups try mail archive unix hensa unofficial fixes rod armstrong rod ate slb com are unix hensa misc unix ups contrib rod ate slb com also mips produces highly customizable wcl based visual debugger you should able use sun dbxtool with its news server the codecenter source level debugger available most major platforms includes based interface offers the examine graphical interface interface dbx and dbx for sun and sun and sdb and sdb for and platforms call contact examine mvuxi att com for more information solbourne offers pdb its based debugger for and fortran pdb uses the toolkit and runs either open look motif mode sco info sco com offers dbxtra part several development systems lucid energize programming system tightly integrated development environment for and programs incorporates graphical user interface top extended version gdb info lucid info lucid com subject how can tee program identically several displays there are several protocol multiplexer tools which provide for the simultaneous display clients any number machines xmx protocol multiplexor available from wilma brown edu pub xmx tar works independently the server and does not affect the application being shared was developed for use the electronic classroom xtv conference program which can used duplicate the chalkboard several displays release available the contrib tapes more recent version ftp odu edu pub wahab xtv tar shx from michael altenhofen digital equipment gmbh cec karlsruhe also does this wysiwis what you see what see package the context computer based learning training tool provide online help from remote tutors but also useful for general window sharing information shx nestvx enet dec com shx can found export and gatekeeper dec com pub contrib shx tar crl dec com pub contrib shx tar modifications shx for color mapping and private color allocation mark handley handley ucl are ucl car shx car tar xtrap implemented server library extension and can used record and then replay session available gatekeeper dec com pub contrib xtrap tar export lcs mit edu contrib xtrap tar wscrawl can used multi person paint program available sax stanford edu wscrawl shar shdr implements simple shared whiteboard without chalk passing mechanism available parcftp xerox com pub europarc shdr tar sketchpad distributed interactive graphical editor particularly designed for sketching sources have been posted alt sources and are available from ftp igd fhg ftp incoming sketchpad the nestor project described upgrading window system for tutoring functions michael altenhofen the proceedings the exug conference also use hewlett packard has commercial product sharedx which works under currently their and series workstations and their stations machines receiving shared windows can any server sharedx consists server extensions and motif based user interface process contact your local sales rep for more information ibm offers commercial product sun offers multi user confering software called showme insoft mechanicsburg usa offers multi user confering software called communique thanks part scott spectra com tim scott and peter cigehn peter lulea trab subject topic building the distribution topic needs updating subject what good source information configuring the build this faq includes information number gotchas that can bite you particular system however the best source general information building the release found the release notes the file bundled separately from the rest the release become separated from your sources you can ftp another copy separately the file relnotes txt the top the distribution the file relnotes also available from the xstuff mail server addition reilly associates volume administration includes information configuring and building subject why doesn sun with work with apparently gcc the problem seems produce fine code for all sun displays except for the cgsix the new sungx distributed with fix may fix the problem note not known work solaris subject why doesn sun with sunos know about dlsym etc you get errors with dlsym dlopen dlclose undefined link with libdl add ldl your and eventually your site def you may want surround with bstatic ldl bdynamic you add the extra libraries variable since syslibs get added after extra libraries the eventual compilation command otherwise you may not have shared libdl compile the stubs shared thanks joe backo joe backo east sun com subject what this strange problem building clients sunos sunos sun fixed shared library bug which conflicts with the way builds the shared xmu library causing these symbols undefined when building some clients get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass compiling bstatic lxmu bdynamic appears work solve the problem you are using openwindows based please contact your local sun office and request the following patches patch description openwindows libxt jumbo patch openwindows undefined symbols when using shared libxmu greg earle earle sun com source patch for use with the mit libraries was developed conrad kimball cek sdc boeing com retrofits into some fixes made get around this problem the patch export contrib sunos patch version subject why can gcc compile sparc used gcc compile the whole distribution but get several segmentation faults when running note first that gcc risc machines does not necessarily result any performance increase certainly not noticeable the vax platforms here the problem gcc and use incompatible methods passing structures arguments and returning them function values when gcc compiled parts are linked with sun supplied functions that pass return structs run time errors occur affected programs include rgb and the server this from the gcc manual the sparc gnu uses incompatible calling convention for structures passes them including their contents the argument list whereas the standard compiler passes them effectively reference this really ought fixed but such calling conventions are not yet supported gnu isn straightforward fix the convention for structure returning also incompatible and fpcc struct return does not help you can duck the problem either using throughout using for just the routines which cause incompatibilities the problem cannot solved with compilation flags files which need compiled using include server bsd oscolor rgb rgb addition several the inet functions use structs args return values clients xhost xhost clients xauth gethost calls inet addr lib clx socket and lib xconndis are possibly harmless they don involve structs collected bashford scripps edu don bashford subject what are these errors running built with gcc when try run xinit the xsun server get the error getting interface configuration operation not supported socket fatal server bug screens found running the gcc fixincludes script apparently didn work you can this simple test include sys ioctl siocgifconf run that through and gcc the last line output the piece interest should identical modulo irrelevant differences like whitespace the gcc version has where the version has your fixincludes run didn work for some reason other back your gcc sources and run fixincludes then rebuild the distribution they are identical try running make clean mit server and rebuilding just make sure everything gets compiled with the proper include files courtesy der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject what are these problems compiling the older sun mit server ddx sun suncg have found missing defines for monolen monolen enblen enblen what should these the errata list distributed after mentions that you can add these lines the file older sunos versions compile define monolen define enblen monolen define monolen monolen define enblen monolen however the sun should not actually ever have the device and references can removed from mit server ddx sun suninit and the imakefile subject what are these problems compiling the server sunos the file sundev reg isn being found sun omitted sundev reg from sunos remove the include from suncg and replace with the line define vaddr color the file has changed from earlier versions sunos and should not copied from another distribution subject what are these problems using shared libraries sunos all the executables that try run have the following results libxmu not found even call undefined procedure gethostname from you are building with shared libraries sun remember that you need run ldconfig root after installing the shared libraries you installed file server run the server clients too while building and installing the distribution you need careful avoid linking against any existing shared libraries you might have those distributed with openwindows you should make sure you not have library path set your environment during the build the installation you are going keep xterm and xload setuid programs please note that the shared libraries must installed usr lib usr local lib usr lib for these programs work else those programs must linked statically courtesy mit consortium note also that the program mkfontdir run part the build attempts however use the shared libraries before they have been installed you can avoid the errors building mkfontdir statically pass bstatic most compilers subject can olit programs run with xtqstring undefined this bug the olit xtqstring was external symbol that existed upon which libxt based wasn documented and was removed mit guarantee upward compatibility between the and libraries only applied the documented interface workaround temporarily set your library path point the openwindows library that you linked the program against from barry margolin barmar think com from jeff francis jpf heliocentric com subject how get around the sunos security hole there security problem with certain clients xterm and xload running under sunos that have been installed setuid root and are using shared libraries avoid the problem one these make the program non setuid you should consult your system administrator concerning protection resources ptys and dev kmem used these programs make sure that you not create additional security problems your site relink the programs statically using bstatic install the libraries before linking and link with absolute paths the libraries from rws expo lcs mit edu bob scheifler the version xterm does this automatically rebuilding xterm against the newly installed libraries when xterm being installed this prevents suid program from being built with libraries specified relatively note that this may cause inconvenience when doing the installation from nfs mounted disks xload has been rewritten avoid the problem subject how get around the frame buffer security hole many systems the frame buffer unsecured default this permits anyone who can log into your workstation peek your windowing session accessing the frame buffer directly less privacy issue but perhaps more annoying accidentally start second session your console display check the man page for fbtab thanks art mulder art ualberta subject topic building programs subject what imake imake not replacement for the make program instead makefile generator that takes advantages the include file and macro processing capabilities the preprocessor cpp generate makefiles suitable for building software particular system although not specific the release uses help solve number the configuration issues that arise making such large system widely portable imake has fairly steep learning curve part because the process which the system specific configuration files system independent configuration files and individual imakefiles are melded produce makefile not obvious there have been several different versions imake the and versions are different you can obtain information imake from these sources the and release notes and imake man page include information using imake build the and file mit config readme also contains useful information the tapes contrib doc imake imake tex mark moraes guide imake the mit doc config usenixws paper contains paper jim fulton early version imake paul dubois dubois primate wisc edu has written useful explanation how imake works and how use configuring for non supported systems the document available from ftp primate wisc edu the directory ftp pub imake stuff look for config troff and config postscript some supplemental appendices are nearby document version now these imake papers are available email mail message body send imake stuff help almanac primate wisc edu see system administration imake friend foe dinah mcnutt the november issue sunexpert german readers should expect june article das meta make make you make schwerelos rainer klute multiuser multitasking magazin directed application programmers needing write imakefiles english language derivative this article the journal issue the reilly resource issue contains paul davey article demystifying imake alain brossard working document full tips imake sasun epfl pub imakefile subject where can get imake versions are distributed with the and releases earlier version distributed with the release some third party toolkits redistribute versions imake along with their own implementations the template and configuration files there are real standards for such configuration files although most current contributed software expects the templates distributed with export contains the distribution unpacked you can pick imake without picking the entire distribution stand alone version imake but one stemming from ftp germany net pub misc imake imake pure tar subject have program with imakefile but makefile what you have installed your system run xmkmf this script which runs imake for you with the correct arguments the output makefile configured for your system and based the imakefile then run make which will use that new makefile compile the program subject why can link the xlib shape routines when try compile certain programs get the following link error undefined xshapequeryextension xshapecombinemask these routines are actually part the shape extension shape which was introduced the mit distribution and allows non rectangular windows like the other sample server extensions the shape extension will only run server which supports pre servers well many vendor supplied servers not support the shape extension which case they will display rectangular windows anyway order use the shape extension you must link the library libxext the distribution this library and the associated includes will the mit extensions directory you not have these files not despair many freeware programs which use the shape extension can also compiled without removing the dshape define from the makefile you can probably this and compile successfully against your older vendor supplied libraries from john melby melby fujitsu uunet net subject what are these problems with xtinherit not found the sun when run program that wrote sunos machine get the error symbol not found xtinherit what you are seeing side effect kludge the libxt get sun shared libraries working apparently you can share function that both called and compared xtinherit this was handled putting xtinherit the same file function that always used thereby guaranteeing that would loaded that initialize where xttoolkitinitialize and xtinitialize reside these routines would normally called you are probably seeing this error because your program not normal based program and does not call xttoolkitinitialize anywhere may program that uses functions but never opens connection the server osf motif uil had this problem called xtmalloc and other functions the solution add the call your program the function does not have executed just linked alternatively your program doesn need any functions and correct not calling xttoolkitinitialize may xlib xview program this case you can remove lxt from your link command should not necessary link the shared libraries statically although this will certainly solve the problem from jordan hayes now jordan moorenet com and danny backx sunbim subject why can compile xaw contrib programs under the new have program that worked well under when try link under the current version get this message undefined xtscrollbarsetthumb xttextsetinsertionpoint xttextreplace there were several name changes the athena widget set addition the header files moving into xaw these are mentioned the release notes this case these functions are not really functions but are part the xaw text widget and have been renamed from xaw subject topic programming problems and puzzles subject why doesn program get the keystrokes select for sic the window manager controls how the input focus transferred from one window another order get keystrokes your program must ask the window manager for the input focus this you must set what are called hints for the window manager your applications xlib based you can use something like the following xwmhints wmhints wmhints flags inputhint wmhints input true xsetwmhints dpy window wmhints your application based the intrinsics you can set the xtninput resource true you probably want any case you don have source you can start the application with the resource input true certain window managers notably dxwm and olwm are very picky about having this done you are using sun openwindows olwm you can also add this resource your defaults file use clients that aren icccm compliant openwindows focuslenience true mostly courtesy dave lemke ncd and stuart marks sun subject how figure out what window manager running you can reliably tell whatever mechanism you could use could spoofed any case for most cases you shouldn care which window manager running long you things icccm conformant manner there are some cases which particular window managers are known things wrong checking for particular hints placed the window the window manager that you can sidestep the problem may appropriate these cases alternatively may appropriate determine which window manager running order take advantage specific added features such olwm push pin menus order give your program added functionality beware usurping the window manager functions providing that functionality even when missing this surely leads future compatibility problems subject there skeleton program available there general framework such the transskel program for the macintosh which handles lots the odds and ends and overhead development under window system and which can used platform for additional development the problem typically solved using interactive application builder tool using cut paste existing applications good applications which you might look manipulate when you want test just this one little thing include contrib clients xskel simple program that puts window and allows sketching and offers starting point for quick hacks the xaw examples the examples directory the and distributions and the xlib hello world example the doc helloworld and doc tutorials helloworld updated version this program which uses xlib calls and current icccm conventions was posted comp windows glenn widener tektronix addition sample program for xaw rainer klute showing how open multiple displays and how catch broken display connection available export lcs mit edu contrib mdisp tar subject why does xtgetvalues not work for sic the xtgetvalues interface for retrieving resources from widget sensitive the type variable your code may doing something like this arg args int int sensitive oops wrong data type xtsetarg args xtnsensitive sensitive xtgetvalues widget args but xtnsensitive boolean which most machines single byte declaring the variable sensitive boolean works properly this problem comes often when using particular toolkits that redefine the types dimension and position code that assumes they are int will have similar problems those types are actually short general you are safe you use the actual type the resource appears the widget man page subject why don xtconfigurewidget xtresizewidget xtmovewidget work you probably trying use these functions from application code they should used only internally widgets these functions are for parent widget change the geometry its children other promising functions xtmakegeometryrequest and xtmakeresizerequest are also for use only widgets this case child request change from its parent the only way for your application request geometry change for widget issue xtsetvalues call setting some the geometry resources although this will result the widget internal functions being called your application code must use the standard xtsetvalues interface risk the widgets data becoming corrupted the xlib calls xmovewindow and xresizewindow should similarly avoided they shouldn used change xtnx xtny xtnwidth xtnheight subject why isn there xtreparentwidget call like xreparentwindow although there are various details the current implementation the internals which make reparenting difficult the major reason that such call exists that remains undefined what the set resources for the new widget should resources are typically set based the location the instance hierarchy what resources should change the instance moves what should happen the widget children and the time such semantics are defined there would probably little advantage over destroying the old widget and creating new widget the correct location with the desired resources setting the resources correctly the majority work creating new widget note that reparenting possible the toolkit david lewis faq craft uunet net just the faqs joe friday david lewis temporarily but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet net
comp.windows.x	whole win screen window placement screen would like configure system unix avoid that any corner given window displayed outside the visible screen the whole window should visible and should impossible move any window outside the visible aerea can this done configuring the window manager resources can this done applikation level hardcoded solution possible but possible have upper limit given window size thank you for information and help
comp.windows.x	comp windows frequently asked questions faq archive name faq part last modified subject writing widget and can use float resource value float resources are not portable the size the value may larger than the size xtpointer try using pointer float instead the xaw scrollbar float resources are handled this way subject this memory leak the xtdestroywidget yes this the unofficial fix for the destroy destroy thu jul lib destroy thu jul xconsortium destroy swick exp plus unofficial patches revisions and copyright digital equipment corporation maynard massachusetts int destroyrec app destroy list while app destroy count dispatch level dispatch level widget widget app destroy count bcopy char char app destroy count sizeof destroyrec xtphase destroy else int destroyrec while app destroy count xtphase destroy can result calls xtdestroywidget and these could cause app destroy list reallocated app destroy list dispatch level dispatch level widget widget app destroy count bcopy char char app destroy count sizeof destroyrec xtphase destroy else from donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject are callbacks guaranteed called the order registered although some books demonstrate that the current implementation happens call callback procedures the order which they are registered the specification does not guarantee such sequence and supplemental authoritative documents the asente swick volume say that the order undefined because the callback list can manipulated both the widget and the application cannot guarantee the order execution general the callback procedures should thought operating independently one another and should not depend side effects other callbacks operating seqence needed then the single callback registered can explicitly call other functions necessary thanks converse expo lcs mit edu subject why doesn xtdestroywidget actually destroy the widget xtdestroywidget operates two passes order avoid leaving dangling data structures the function call marks the widget which not actually destroyed until your program returns its event loop subject how query the user synchronously using possible have code which looks like this trivial callback which has clear flow control the calls askuser block until answer set one the valid values not yes answer the code drops out the callback and back event processing loop void quit widget xtpointer client xtpointer call int answer answer askuser really quit ret yes answer answer askuser are you really positive ret yes answer exit more realistic example might ask whether create file whether overwrite this accomplished entering second event processing loop and waiting until the user answers the question the answer returned the calling function that function askuser looks something like this where the motif can replaced with widget set specific code create some sort dialog box displaying the question string and buttons for cancel and help equivalents int askuser string widget char string int answer ret none some not used marker widget dialog could cache carry but arg args int xtappcontext context xtsetarg args xmnmessagestring xmstringcreateltor string xmstring default charset xtsetarg args xmndialogstyle xmdialog application modal dialog xmcreatequestiondialog xtparent string args xtaddcallback dialog xmnokcallback response answer xtaddcallback dialog xmncancelcallback response answer xtaddcallback dialog xmnhelpcallback response answer xtmanagechild dialog context xtwidgettoapplicationcontext while answer ret none xtapppending context xtappprocessevent context xtimall xtdestroywidget dialog blow away the dialog box and shell return answer the dialog supports three buttons which are set call the same function when tickled the user the variable answer set when the user finally selects one those choices void response client call widget xtpointer client xtpointer call int answer int client xmanycallbackstruct reason xmanycallbackstruct call switch reason reason case xmcr answer ret yes some define value break case xmcr cancel answer ret break case xmcr help answer ret help break default return and the code unwraps back the point which answer was needed and continues from there thanks dan heller argv sun com further code dan contrib widgetwrap library subject how determine the name existing widget have widget and need know what the name that widget users and later are best off using the xtname function which will work both widgets and non widget objects you are still using you can use this simple bit code what you want note that depends the widget internal data structures and not necessarily portable future versions including include corep include xresource string xtname widget widget widget will work with non widget objects return xrmnametostring widget core xrm name modified with suggestion larry rogers larry boris webo com subject why get baddrawable error drawing xtwindow widget doing this order get window into which can xlib graphics within based program canvas xtcreatemanagedwidget widgetclass drawing area window xtwindow canvas get the window associated with the widget xdrawline window produces error the window associated with the widget created part the realization the widget using window null window could create the error that you describe necessary call xtrealizewidget before attempting use the window associated with widget note that the window will created after the xtrealizewidget call but that the server may not have actually mapped yet you should also wait for expose event the window before drawing into subject why get badmatch error when calling xgetimage the badmatch error can occur the specified rectangle goes off the edge the screen you don want catch the error and deal with you can take the following steps avoid the error make pixmap the same size the rectangle you want capture clear the pixmap background using xfillrectangle use xcopyarea copy the window the pixmap you get noexpose event the copy was clean use xgetimage grab the image from the pixmap you get one more graphicsexpose events the copy wasn clean and the width height members the graphicsexpose event structures tell you the parts the pixmap which aren good get rid the pixmap probably takes lot memory thanks oliver jones pictel com subject how can application tell being run under number programs offer modes but otherwise run straight character only mode the easiest way for application determine that running display attempt open connection the server display xopendisplay display name display stuff else curses something else where display name either the string specified the command line following display convention otherwise char null which case xopendisplay uses the value display set this superior simply checking for the existence display command line argument checking for display set the environment neither which adequate subject how make busy cursor while application computing necessary call xdefinecursor for every window application the easiest thing create single inputonly window that large the largest possible screen make child your toplevel window and will clipped that window won affect any other application needs big the largest possible screen case the user enlarges the window while busy moves elsewhere within virtual desktop substitute toplevel with your top most widget here similar code should work for xlib only applications just use your top window unsigned long valuemask xsetwindowattributes attributes ignore device events while the busy cursor displayed valuemask cwdontpropagate cwcursor attributes not propagate mask keypressmask keyreleasemask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask pointermotionmask attributes cursor xcreatefontcursor xtdisplay toplevel watch the window will big the display screen and clipped its own parent window never have worry about resizing xcreatewindow xtdisplay toplevel xtwindow toplevel unsigned int inputonly copyfromparent valuemask attributes where the maximum size above could replaced the real size the screen particularly avoid servers which have problems with windows larger than when you want use this busy cursor map and raise this window back normal unmap this will automatically keep you from getting extra mouse events depending precisely how the window manager works may may not have similar effect keystrokes well addition note also that most the xaw widgets support xtncursor resource which can temporarily reset should you merely wish change the cursor without blocking pointer events thanks andrew wason cellar bae bellcore com dan heller argv sun com and mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject how fork without hanging parent program based application which spawns off other unix processes which continue run after closed typically does not vanish until all its children are terminated the children inherit from the parent the open connection the display what you need fork then immediately the child process close connectionnumber xtdisplay widget close the file descriptor the display information after this your exec you will then able exit the parent alternatively before exec ing make this call which causes the file descriptor closed exec void fcntl connectionnumber xdisplay setfd thanks janet anstett anstettj tramp colorado edu gordon freedman gjf duts ccc amdahl com greg holmberg holmberg frame com subject can make xlib calls from signal handler xlib and have mutual exclusion for protecting critical sections your signal handler makes such call the wrong time which might while the function you are calling already executing can leave the library inconsistent state note that the ansi standard points out that behavior signal handler undefined the signal handler calls any function other than signal itself this not problem specific xlib and the posix specification mentions other functions which may called safely but may not assumed that these functions are called xlib functions you can work around the problem setting flag the interrupt handler and later checking with work procedure timer event which has previously been added note the article the journal and the example reilly volume are error thanks pete ware ware cis ohio state edu and donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject what are these xlib sequence lost errors you may see these errors you issue xlib requests from xlib error handler more likely you make calls which generate requests xlib from signal handler which you shouldn doing any case subject how can program handle socket pipe file input very common need write program that can accept input both from user via the connection and from some other file descriptor but which operates efficiently and without blocking either the connection the other file descriptor solution use xtappaddinput after you open your file descriptor use xtappaddinput register input handler the input handler will called every time there something the file descriptor requiring your program attention write the input handler like you would any other callback does its work quickly and returns important use only non blocking system calls your input handlers most input handlers read the file descriptor although you can have input handler write handle exception conditions you wish careful when you register input handler read from disk file you will find that the function called even when there isn input pending xtappaddinput actually working supposed the input handler called whenever the file descriptor ready read not only when there new data read disk file unlike pipe socket almost always ready read however only because you can spin back the beginning and read data you read before the result that your function will almost always called every time around xtappmainloop there way get the type interaction you are expecting add this line the beginning your function test whether there new data ioctl fionread return but because this called frequently your application effectively busy wait you may better off not using xtappaddinput and instead setting timer and the timer procedure checking the file for input courtesy dan heller argv ora com mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu ollie jones pictel com subject how simulate button press release event for widget you can this using xsendevent likely that you not setting the window field the event which needs order match the widget which should receive the event you sending events your own application then you can use xtdispatchevent instead this more efficient than xsendevent that you avoid round trip the server depending how well the widget was written you may able call its action procedures order get the effects you want courtesy mark horstman sarek sbc com subject why doesn anything appear when run this simple program the window xcreatesimplewindow the display root window size hints size hints size hints width size hints height border width blackpixel the display the screen whitepixel the display the screen xselectinput the display the window exposuremask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask xmapwindow the display the window xdrawline the display the window the you are right map the window before drawing into however the window not ready drawn into until actually appears the screen until your application receives expose event drawing done before that will generally not appear you see code like this many programs this code would appear after window was created and mapped while done xnextevent the display the event switch the event type case expose expose events redraw xdrawline the display the window the break note that there second problem some xlib implementations don set the default graphics context have correct foreground background colors this program could previously include this code the values foreground blackpixel the display the screen the values background whitepixel the display the screen the xcreategc the display the window gcforeground gcbackground the values note the code uses blackpixel and whitepixel avoid assuming that black and white vice versa the relationship between pixels and and the colors black and white implementation dependent they may reversed they may not even correspond black and white all also note that actually using blackpixel and whitepixel usually the wrong thing finished program ignores the user preference for foreground and background and also note that you can run into the same situation based program you draw into the xtwindow right after has been realized may not yet have appeared subject what the difference between screen and screen the screen xlib structure which includes the information about one the monitors virtual monitors which single display supports server can support several independent screens they are numbered unix unix unix etc the screen screen number the second digit the which can thought index into the array available screens this particular display connection the macros which you can use obtain information about the particular screen which your application running typically have two forms one which takes screen and one with takes both the display and the screen number based programs you typically use xtscreen widget determine the screen which your application running uses single screen part the confusion may arise from the fact that some the macros which return characteristics the screen have display the names xdisplaywidth xdisplayheight etc subject can use with motif xview the header files are compatible with the motif header files are usable inside extern however the definition string intrinsic can conflict with the libg other string class and needs worked around some other projects which can help wwl set classes jean daniel fekete wrap toolkit widgets available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu contrib wwl tar lri lri pub wwl tar works building set classes parallel the class tree the widgets the interviews toolkit obtainable via anonymous ftp from interviews stanford edu interviews uses box glue model similar that tex for constructing user interfaces and supports multiple looks the user interfaces some its sample applications include wysiwig document editor doc macdraw like drawing program idraw and interface builder ibuild things class library written the rome air force base the strategic air command available freeware archive sites motif public domain library that defines class wrappers for motif adds application class for initializing and also integrates wcl and the xbae widget set this work was developed ronald van loon rvloon ruu based set bindings done the university lowell graphics research laboratory the current sources are available from decuac dec com pub motif jul tar the source code examples for doug young object oriented programming with and osf motif isbn not include widget wrappers but include set classes that encapsulates higher level facilities commonly needed motif other based applications check export ftp contrib young tar rogue wave offers view for programmers using motif info product called commonview glockenspiel ltd ireland apparently based toolkit for multiple window systems including windows and motif sold qualix fax implements interface from the gil files that sun openwindows developers guide produces xview wrapper classes uit set classes embedding the xview toolkit intended for use with sun openwindows developers guide builder tool sources are export mit edu uit tar version was released also likely use objectcenter saber and reasonable alternative all the above parcplace formerly solbourne object interface thanks douglas rand dsrand mitre org and george gwu tcs com subject where can obtain alternate language bindings versions the clx lisp bindings are part the core source distributions version clx the tape version export lcs mit edu contrib clx tar the saic ada bindings are through anonymous ftp pub from stars rosslyn unisys com there ada study team sponsored nasa jsc which apparently working out bindings information xada ghg hou gnu smalltalk has beta native smalltalk binding called stix steven byrne eng sun com still its beginning stages and documentation sparse outside the smalltalk code itself the sources are available pub gnu smalltalk tar prep mit edu ugle unit prolog bindings called xwip written ted kim ucla while supported part darpa are available anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu contrib xwip tar ftp ucla edu pub xwip tar these prolog language bindings depend having quintus type foreign function interface your prolog the developer has gotten work with quintus and sicstus prolog inquiries should xwip ucla edu scheme bindings xlib osf motif and xaw are part the elk distribution version export obsoletes the version the contrib tape scm bolt accessory for aubrey jaffer scm scheme interpreter that provides interface xlib motif and openlook now available via ftp from altdorf mit edu archive scm xscm tar and nexus yorku pub scheme new xscm tar ada bindings motif explicitly will eventually made available the jet propulsion laboratories probably through the normal electronic means advance information can obtained from dsouleles dsfvax jpl nasa gov who may respond time permits adamotif complete binding and motif for the ada language for many common systems based part upon the saic unisys bindings and also includes uil ada translator info systems engineering research corporation ada serc well serc apple com also the mit consortium although not involved producing ada bindings for maintains partial listing people involved and ada information available from donna converse converse expo lcs mit edu subject can xgetwindowattributes get window background pixel pixmap once set the background pixel pixmap window cannot read clients the reason for this that client can create pixmap set the background pixmap window and then free the pixmap the window keeps this background but the pixmap itself destroyed you sure window has background pixel not pixmap you can use xcleararea clear region the background color and then use xgetimage read back that pixel however this action alters the contents the window and suffers from race conditions with exposures courtesy dave lemke ncd and stuart marks sun note that the same applies the border pixel pixmap this mis feature the protocol which allows the server free manipulate the pixel pixmap however wants not requiring the server keep the original pixel pixmap some potentially lot space can saved courtesy jim fulton mit consortium subject how create transparent window completely transparent window easy get use inputonly window order create window which mostly transparent you have several choices the shape extension first released with offers easy way make non rectangular windows you can set the shape the window fit the areas where the window should nontransparent however not all servers support the extension machine specific method implementing transparent windows for particular servers use overlay plane supported the hardware note that there notion transparent color index generally portable solution use large number tiny windows but this makes operating the application unit difficult final answer consider whether you really need transparent window you would satisfied with being able overlay your application window with information you can draw into separate bitplanes colors that will appear properly thanks der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu see also the journal for more complete answer including code samples for this last option subject why doesn gxxor produce mathematically correct color values when using gxxor you may expect that drawing with value black background black for example should produce white however the drawing operation does not work rgb values but colormap indices the color that the resulting colormap index actually points undefined and visually random unless you have actually filled yourself many servers black and white often programs taking advantage this mathematical coincidence will break you want combining colors with gxxor then you should allocating number your own color cells and filling them with your chosen pre computed values you want use gxxor simply switch between two colors then you can take the shortcut setting the background color the graphics context and the foreground color value such that when draws over red say the result blue and when draws over blue the result red this foreground value itself the xor the colormap indices red and blue thanks chris flatters cflatter zia aoc nrao edu and ken whaley whaley spectre dec com subject why does every color allocate show black make sure you using bits and not the red green and blue fields xcolor structure are scaled that nothing and full blast you forget scale using for example for each color the xalloccolor function will perform correctly but the resulting color usually black thanks paul asente asente adobe com subject why can program get standard colormap have image processing program which uses xgetrgbcolormap get the standard colormap but doesn work xgetrgbcolormap when used with the property rgb default map does not create standard colormap just returns one one already exists use xstdcmap what does order create the standard colormap first from der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject why does the pixmap copy the screen show garbage the initial contents pixmaps are undefined this means that most servers will allocate the memory and leave around whatever happens there which usually garbage you probably want clear the pixmap first using xfillrectangle with function gxcopy and foreground pixel whatever color you want your background you are using the pixmap mask courtesy dave lemke ncd and stuart marks sun subject how check whether window valid program has the window remote display want check whether the window exists before doing anything with because asynchronous there isn guarantee that the window would still exist between the time that you got the and the time you sent event the window otherwise manipulated what you should send the event without checking but install error handler catch any badwindow errors which would indicate that the window longer exists this scheme will work except the rare occasion that the original window has been destroyed and its reallocated another window courtesy ken lee klee synoptics com subject can have two applications draw the same window yes the server assigns ids windows and other resources actually the server assigns some bits the client others and any application that knows the can manipulate the resource almost any server resource except for gcs and private color cells can shared the problem you face how disseminate the window multiple applications simple way handle this and which solves the problem the applications running different machines the first application create specially named property the root window and put the window into the second application then retrieves the property whose name also knows and then can draw whatever wants into the window note this scheme works iff there only one instance the first application running and the scheme subject the limitations mentioned the question about using window ids remote displays note also that you will still need coordinate any higher level cooperation among your applications note also that two processes can share window but should not try use the same server connection one process child the other should close down the connection the server and open its own connection mostly courtesy phil karlton karlton wpd sgi com subject why can program work with tvtwm swm number applications including xwd xwininfo and xsetroot not handle the virtual root window which tvtwm and swm use they typically return the wrong child root general solution add this code use your own application where you would normally use rootwindow dpy screen function name getvroot description gets the root window even virtual root arguments the display and the screen returns the root window for the client include xatom window getvroot dpy scr display dpy int scr window rootreturn parentreturn children unsigned int numchildren window root rootwindow dpy scr atom swm vroot none int swm vroot xinternatom dpy swm vroot false xquerytree dpy root rootreturn parentreturn children numchildren for numchildren atom actual type int actual format long nitems bytesafter window newroot null xgetwindowproperty dpy children swm vroot false window actual type actual format nitems bytesafter unsigned char newroot success newroot root newroot break return root courtesy david elliott dce smsc sony com similar code ssetroot version xsetroot distributed with tvtwm header file andreas stolcke icsi export lcs mit edu contrib vroot functions similarly providing macros for rootwindow and defaultrootwindow code can include this header file first run properly the presence virtual desktop subject how keep window from being resized the user resizing the window done through the window manager window managers can pay attention the size hints your application places the window but there guarantee that the window manager will listen you can try setting the minimum and maximum size hints your target size and hope for the best subject how keep window the foreground all times rather antisocial for application constantly raise itself tracking visibilitynotify events that isn overlapped imagine the conflict between two such programs running the only sure way have your window appear the top the stack make the window override redirect this means that you are temporarily assuming window management duties while the window you want this infrequently and then only for short periods time for popup menus other short parameter setting windows thanks der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu subject how make text and bitmaps blink there easy way unless you willing depend some sort extension yet non existent you have arrange for the blinking yourself either redrawing the contents periodically possible playing games with the colormap and changing the color the contents thanks mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse subject how get double click xlib users have the support the translation manager help get notification double clicking there good way get only double click xlib because the protocol does not provide enough support double clicks you have client side timeouts unless the single click action such that you can defer actually taking until you next see event from the server thus you have timeouts which means system dependent code most unixish implementations you can use xconnectionnumber get the file descriptor the connection and then use select something similar that note that many user interface references suggest that double click used extend the action indicated single click this the case your interface then you can execute the first action and compromise check the timestamp the second event determine whether too should the single click action the double click action thanks mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse subject how render rotated text xlib intentionally does not provide such sophisticated graphics capabilities leaving them server extensions clients side graphics libraries your only choice you want stay within the core protocol render the text into pixmap read back via xgetimage rotate hand with whatever matrices you want and put back the server via xputimage more specifically create bitmap and write your text create xybitmap image from via xgetimage create xybitmap image big enough handle the transformation for each where cos theta sin theta sin theta cos theta render note that you should careful how you implement this not lose bits algorithm based shear transformations may fact better the high level server extensions and graphics packages available for also permit rendering rotated text display postscript pex phigs and gks although most are not capable arbitrary rotation and probably not use the same fonts that would found printer addition you have enough access the server install font you can create font which consists letters rotated some predefined angle your application can then itself figure out placement each glyph courtesy der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu eric taylor etaylor wilkins bmc tmc edu and ken lee klee synoptics com liam quin lee com interviews toolkit the contrib software has support for rendering rotated fonts could one source example code brian smith brsmith umn edu another possibility use the hershey fonts they are stroke rendered and can used converting them into xdrawline requests eric pencom com the xrotfont program alan richardson mppa syma sussex posted comp sources july paints rotated font implementing the method above and using outline hershey font the xvertext package alan richardson mppa syma sussex set functions facilitate the writing text any angle version was recently released alt sources and comp sources misc also export contrib xvertext shar reilly resource volume includes information from about modifications the fonts server which provide for rotated and scaled text subject what the registry how reserve names there are places the toolkit applications and the protocol that define and use string names the context such that conflicts are possible different components use the same name for different things the mit consortium maintains registry names these domains orgainization names selection names selection targets resource types application classes and class extension record types and several others the list the directory mit doc registry the tape also available sending send docs registry the xstuff mail server register names first come first served ask questions send xregistry expo lcs mit edu sure include postal address for confirmation condensed from asente swick appendix david lewis faq craft uunet net just the faqs joe friday david lewis temporarily but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet net
comp.windows.x	mouse buttons urgent apr gmt dmu kler said nntp posting host elm know sounds stupid but does anyone know how control individual mouse buttons writing application which currently makes use buttonpressmask however this invoked the pressing any mouse button want able restrict this one the buttons tried button pressmask but just get undefined errors know can done and pretty sure theres easy answer but just don know what time the essence there event mask for particular mouse button press however your event handler you can use the event structure passed and query find which button was pressed void someeventhandler widget xtpointer data xevent event catch the button usually left button event xbutton button button some action else nothing and exit from function guy singh ixi internet guy vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy tel
comp.windows.x	protocol packet type article dep slacvm slac stanford edu dep slacvm slac stanford edu writes there way identify protocol packet under decnet under tcp the information the packets isn necessarily distinctive you need know that connection ethan
comp.windows.x	drawing colour pixmaps not rectangular article mar etrog citri edu jck catt citri edu justin kibell writes writing program which needs draw colour xpm pixmap files onto background without having the borders show cannot xor the colours all stuff cannot use xcopyplane that for single planes only want able specify colour the pixmap used the opaque colour this possible games such xjewel have the same problem how does the mouse pointer any help would helpful you wanna masking build bitmap pixmap depth one where all pixels you name opaque are that get copied and the others are use this bitmap the clip mask the used for xcopyarea and remember adjust the clip origin coordinates the xcopyarea blit origin the mouse pointer besides from that driven using ramdac analog mapping most hardwares uses mask too but warned blitting through mask and especially moving around this mask annoying slow most xservers flickers even mips brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	pixmaps masks icons clues article sophia inria lehors koala inria arnaud hors writes article buzz mar lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes this simple graphics question assume you have valid window icon pixmap and the background mask also pixmap for that icon you wish place the icon without the background question what combination xcopyarea and functions are necessary think the idea merge only those pixels pixmap into indicated the corresponding mask pixel value specifically the problem involves pixmap and mask generated the xpm libs any clues would most appreciated xpm provides you with symbolic color names which can specified load time for doing what you want would suggest you define background symbol your pixmap file which you set whatever color used the widget the window which you want put your pixmap this would surely the simplest and fastest way what you want soon you blit two this icons once top the other with little dislocation you see the rectangular blit crashes too much the icon first blitted because draws full rectangle the way masking create bitmap with all pixels merged are and all not merged are then set the clip mask the this bitmap set the clip origin and clip origin the the coordinates where you blit the icon the destination drawable use gxcopy and xcopyarea the icon pixmap the destination drawable using this brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	comp windows frequently asked questions faq archive name faq part last modified this article and several following contain the answers some frequently asked questions faq often seen comp windows posted help reduce volume this newsgroup and provide hard find information general interest please redistribute this article this article includes answers the following questions which are loosely grouped into categories questions marked with indicate questions new this issue those with significant changes content since the last issue are marked topic basic information sources and definitions what books and articles are good for beginners what courses and various toolkits are available what conferences are coming what related public mailing lists are available how can meet other developers what related faqs are available how ask net question maximize helpful responses what publications discussing are available what are these common abbreviations acronyms what the icccm how write friendly applications what the consortium and how join just what are open look and motif just what openwindows just what decwindows what pex what low bandwidth lbx xremote ppp slip cslip topic using day day life what are all these different window managers why does session exit when kill window manager sic can save the state session like toolplaces does how use another window manager with dec session manager how change the keyboard auto repeat rate how remap the keys keyboard produce string how make screendump print application how make color postscript screendump the display how make screendump including the cursor how convert view mac tiff gif sun pict img fax images how can change the titlebar xterm window where can find the xterm control sequences why does the xterm fail against the server how can use characters above ascii xterm why are xterm menus small how can print the current selection how does use environment variables loading resources how have the xdm put picture behind the log window why isn path set when xdm runs xsession file how keep display when rlogin another machine how can design own font why does adding font the server not work sic how convert snf font back bdf font what general method getting font usable format how use decwindows fonts non decwindows server how add bdf fonts decwindows server how can set backgroundpixmap defaults file what xpm why can override translations only the first item works how can have xclock oclock show different timezones have xmh but doesn work where can get why suddenly unable connect sun server why don the pex demos work mono screen how get sun type keyboard fully supported xsun how report bugs why get warning widget class version mismatch where can find dictionary server for xwebster topic obtaining and related software and hardware public domain software how compatible are and what changes are there where can get source and binaries where can get patches what the xstuff mail archive where can get source and binaries where can get osf motif does motif work with where can get toolkits implementing open look where can get other sources including modifications where can get interesting widgets where can get good file selector widget what widget appropriate use drawing canvas what the current state the world terminals where can get server with touchscreen lightpen where can get server dos unix where can get server macintosh running macos where can get for the amiga where can get fast server for workstation where can get server for high end sun graphics board where can get terminal server for low end sun what terminal emulators other than xterm are available where can get based editor word processor where can get based mailer where can get based paint draw program where can get based plotting program where can get based spreadsheet where can get based project management software where can get based postscript previewer where can get based gks package where can get based pex package where can get based tex dvi previewer where can get based troff previewer where can get wysiwyg interface builder where can find tools callable from shell scripts where can get based debugger how can tee program identically several displays topic building the distribution topic needs updating what good source information configuring the build why doesn sun with work with why doesn sun with sunos know about dlsym etc what this strange problem building clients sunos why can gcc compile sparc what are these errors running built with gcc what are these problems compiling the older sun what are these problems compiling the server sunos what are these problems using shared libraries sunos can olit programs run with xtqstring undefined how get around the sunos security hole how get around the frame buffer security hole topic building programs what imake where can get imake have program with imakefile but makefile what why can link the xlib shape routines what are these problems with xtinherit not found the sun why can compile xaw contrib programs under the new topic programming problems and puzzles why doesn program get the keystrokes select for sic how figure out what window manager running there skeleton program available why does xtgetvalues not work for sic why don xtconfigurewidget xtresizewidget xtmovewidget work why isn there xtreparentwidget call like xreparentwindow writing widget and can use float resource value this memory leak the xtdestroywidget are callbacks guaranteed called the order registered why doesn xtdestroywidget actually destroy the widget how query the user synchronously using how determine the name existing widget why get baddrawable error drawing xtwindow widget why get badmatch error when calling xgetimage how can application tell being run under how make busy cursor while application computing how fork without hanging parent program can make xlib calls from signal handler what are these xlib sequence lost errors how can program handle socket pipe file input how simulate button press release event for widget why doesn anything appear when run this simple program what the difference between screen and screen can use with motif xview where can obtain alternate language bindings can xgetwindowattributes get window background pixel pixmap how create transparent window why doesn gxxor produce mathematically correct color values why does every color allocate show black why can program get standard colormap why does the pixmap copy the screen show garbage how check whether window valid can have two applications draw the same window why can program work with tvtwm swm how keep window from being resized the user how keep window the foreground all times how make text and bitmaps blink how get double click xlib how render rotated text what the registry how reserve names you have suggestions corrections for any these answers any additional information please send them directly uunet craft faq the information will included the next revision possibly the one after that thanks for the many suggestions which haven been incorporated yet this version the faq the process having information replaced information this posting intended distributed approximately the beginning each month new versions are archived export lcs mit edu and are also available from mail server pit manager mit edu and archive server nic switch send help the information contained herein has been gathered from variety sources many cases attribution has been lost you would like claim responsibility for particular item please let know conventions used below telephone numbers tend bell system unless otherwise noted prices items are not included email addresses are those that work from the window system trademark the massachusetts institute technology other trademarks are the property their respective owners note script george ferguson ferguson rochester edu pretty print this faq available from ugle unit pub contrib xfaq texinfo subject topic basic information sources and definitions subject what books and articles are good for beginners ken lee synoptics klee synoptics com regularly posts comp windows and windows bibliography containing cites all known reference books and how manuals and also cites selected technical articles and programming ftp able export lcs mit edu contrib xbibliography and gatekeeper dec com pub contrib xbibliography here unordered set the reference books and tutorials most useful for beginners most appear that list comments are gathered from variety places and are unattributable asente paul and swick ralph window system toolkit the complete programmer guide and specification digital press the bible treasury information excellent and invaluable distributed digital press isbn order number and prentice hall isbn also available through dec direct digital the examples are export lcs mit edu contrib and gatekeeper dec com pub contrib asente swick examples tar they were also posted comp sources examples part jones oliver introduction the window system prentice hall isbn excellent introduction programming with xlib written with the programmer mind this book includes many practical tips that are not found anywhere else this book not broad the reilly xlib tutorial but jones experienced programmer and this shows the quality and depth the material the book originally written for recent printings have included corrections and additions and current material young doug the window system applications and programming with motif version prentice hall isbn the excellent tutorial window system programming and applications with isbn updated for motif the examples are available export the ones from the motif version are ftp contrib young motif tar young doug and john pew the window system programming and applications with open look edition isbn the tutorial rewritten for olit with new examples and drag drop information examples are export youg olit tar and you openwindows distribution openwinhome share src olit olitbook heller dan motif programmers manual the volume the reilly series covers motif application programming full good examples with motif reference pages isbn the examples are available uunet comp sources and nutshell archives motif will out soon scheifler robert and james gettys with jim flowers and david rosenthal window system the complete reference xlib protocol icccm xlfd version release third edition digital press the bible its latest revision enhanced version documentation the authors the xlib documentation this the most complete published description the programming interface and protocol the primary reference work and not introductory tutorial documentation additional tutorial works will usually needed most new programmers digital press order isbn nye adrian xlib programming manual volume and xlib reference manual volume reilly and associates superset the mit documentation the first volume tutorial with broad coverage xlib and the second contains reference pages for xlib functions and many useful reference appendices both cover and isbn volume and isbn volume nye adrian and tim reilly toolkit programming manual volume reilly and associates the folks reilly give their comprehensive treatment programming with the mit intrinsics versions are now available motif version volume reilly tim toolkit reference manual volume reilly and associates professional reference manual for the mit and mansfield niall the window system user guide addison wesley tutorial introduction using now upgraded for isbn quercia valerie and tim reilly window system user guide reilly and associates tutorial introduction using isbn also available and motif flavors mui linda and eric pearce window system administrator guide for and ora volume help for users and administrators isbn prentice hall ordering reilly ordering addition check the and core distribution doc tutorials for some useful papers and tutorials particularly the file answers txt late night top ten questions dave lemke lemke ncd com and stuart marks smarks sun com answers other common questions and some these here more detail new versions the reilly references not yet volume are now available single volume programmer supplement for david flanagan provides overview new features includes man pages for xlib and xmu isbn subject what courses and various toolkits are available advanced computing environments periodically offers least two day introduction course contact susie karlson for information offers training xlib and the xol set contact corporate education training for more info trainer the usa bim educational services offers training administration and programming with motif and open windows the courses are given near brussels info edu sunbim voice fax communica software consultants offers three day hands courses designed for the window system developer and programmer contact chris clarkson telephone mail communica communica cora computer technologies offers several courses ghct offers one week lecture lab course for programmmers designed douglas young based his book the window system programming and applica tions with osf motif edition information brian stell ghct brian sgi com ghg offers range courses and motif information training info ghg hou hands learning has live training and self paced video workshops topics such using and programming xlib and widget writing information hewlett packard hpclass contact your local center offers day introduction day xlib course day and motif seminar and day motif lab course integrated computer solutions inc offers several multi day hands courses and the xaw and motif widget sets particular information available and info ics com intelligent visual computing teaches several lab courses site for motif and xview ivc info ivc com iris computing laboratories offers five day xlib and courses info info spectro com ixi limited offers regular training courses for both programmers and non technical managers see also unipalm below learning tree international offers four day course window system applications development including xlib and some information motif for more info call canada courses are offered major north american cities also london stockholm tokyo and elsewhere lurnix offers day type along courses the course being ported from xaw information available mitch trachtenberg and associates offers regular day lab courses programming with osf motif usually but not limited cambridge info info mta com non standard logics requests nsl offers courses programming with xlib motif and creating motif widgets osf educational services offers one day seminars and one week motif lab courses john pew offers day course olit possibly based his book that subject sco scol info sco com offers training for its open desktop motif environment the and europe software pundits offers range courses technology exchange offers day xlib motif course telesoft now offering day plus day seminar and motif information bruce sherman bds telesoft com unipalm xtech offers osf day motif course and day overview information unipalm training xtech unipalm the university edinburgh developing series courses and related topics primarily for non profit making training academia but also for commercial use information cliff booth unipalm ltd phone fax various other vendors are also beginning offer training usually specific proprietary toolkit and proprietary widget set dec offering xlib courses sun offers xview course various universities are offering short courses overviews ucla dartmouth university lowell university canberra within australia berkeley extension will have one week motif class for programmers san francisco starting july the class will have hands lab for more information contact ucbx among the best places find courses are the various unix conferences uniforum usenix unix expo xhibition the mit technical conference the acm tutorial weeks addition the consortium posts approximately quarterly list unendorsed speakers and consultants who can provide talks variety topics subject what conferences are coming the xhibition trade show and conference with tutorials panels presentations and vendor exhibits will held the san jose convention center june information xhibit ics com the tcl workshop will held ucal berkeley june information tcl berkeley edu the andrew technical conference and consortium annual meeting will held june pittsburgh information wilfred hansen cmu edu the european user group holds annual conference which typically includes includes paper presentations and vendor exhibit exug the real world and multimedia will held the imperial college science and technology london information exug demon niall uit whitehead fax the motif show held washington coincide with the fedunix and the federal open systems conference usually december information motif fedunix org paller fedunix org fax the mit technical conference typically held january boston registration information available from registration expo lcs mit edu the xworld conference and exhibition includes tutorials panels presentations and vendor exhibits typically held march new york city information sigs publication group other trade shows unixexpo uniforum siggraph show increasing presence including tutorials and exhibits subject what related public mailing lists are available the xpert mailing list the general public mailing list maintained the consortium the mailings are gatewayed xpert almost identical the comp windows usenet newsgroup you get comp windows you don need added the xpert mailing list otherwise you can join the list receive information electronically best find local distribution perhaps someone within your company already receiving the mailing last resort send mail xpert request expo lcs mit edu with valid return electronic address the xannounce mailing list carries major announcements such new releases including public patches from mit public reviews adoption standards the mit consortium and conference 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solbourne object interface toolkit can subscribed users requests bbn com mailing list discussing multi threaded xlib can subscribed xlib request xsoft xerox com subject how can meet other developers reilly and associates sponsors mailing list for the use user group organizers subscribe sending listserv ora com the message subscribe xgroups your internet address local area user groups are listed issue reilly resource journal list may also available from xug ics com the french user group called afux and based sophia antipolis cerics information can obtained from miss vasseur miss forest rue albert einstein valbonne cedex phone fax the european user group was formed represent users europe holds technical conferences regular intervals the exug also publishes regular newsletter which distributed free charge members the exug also runs email mailing list for members which frequently used address issues european interest the exug can contacted whitehead fax gxugiv the german user group vorbereitung preparation being formed for programmers and users associated with the exug all interested should contact olaf heimburger and mcvax unido tub olaf subject what related faqs are available liam quin lee com posts faq open look comp windows open look jan newmarch jan pandonia canberra edu posts faq motif comp windows motif peter ware ware cis ohio state edu posts faq for comp windows intrinsics export contrib faq art mulder art ualberta posts comp windows faq maximizing the performance steve kotsopoulos steve ecf toronto edu posts comp windows faq about using intel based unix systems the faq alt binaries pictures contains information viewing images with and massaging image formats the faq comp mail gatewayed users ics uci edu includes section xmh the faq comp lang lisp contains information several interface tools and toolkits there exists pex phigs faq subject how ask net question maximize helpful responses when asking for help the net mailing lists sure include all information about your setup and what you are doing the more specific you are the more likely someone will spot error what you are doing without all the details people who want help you often have guess they are able respond all always mention what version you are using and where you got from your server came from different source the rest your system give details that too give the machine type operating system and version for both the client and server machine may also appropriate mention the window manager compiler and display hardware type you are using then tell exactly what you are doing exactly what happens and what you expected wanted happen command that fails include the exact transcript your session the message program you wrote doesn work the way you expect include little the source necessary just small test case please for readers reproduce the problem subject what publications discussing are available the trade magazines unix world unix review computer language etc are publishing more articles two specific publications include reilly and associates publishes the resource practical journal the window system morris sebastapol editorial information adrian nye adrian ora com the journal started monthly publication september variety topics subscription information the journal subscriber services dept xxx box denville usa editorial information editors topgun uunet net subject what are these common abbreviations acronyms the toolkit intrinsics library layered xlib which provides the functionality from which the widget sets are built based program application which uses one those widget sets and which uses intrinsics mechanisms manipulate the widgets xmu the xmu library collection miscellaneous utility functions useful building various applications and widgets xaw the athena widget set the mit implemented sample widget set distributed with source the osf motif widget set from the open software foundation binary kits are available from many hardware vendors xhp the hewlett packard widget set was originally based but several sets patches exist which bring distributed the tapes supplemental patches are available use with clx the common lisp interface common lisp equivalent xlib xdmcp the display manager protocol provides uniform mechanism for display such terminal request login service from remote host xlfd the logical font description conventions describes standard logical font description and conventions used clients that they can query and access those resources rtfm common expert speak meaning please locate and consult the relevant documentation read the forgotten manual utsl common expression meaning take advantage the fact that you aren limited binary license use the source luke api application programmer interface the function calls etc programming library bdf bitmap distribution format human readable format for uncompiled fonts gui graphical user interface uil the user interface language part osf motif which lets programmers specify widget hierarchy simple outline form wcl the widget creation language package which extends the understanding the resource format such that widget hierarchy and actions the widgets can specified through the resources file gil the file format put out sun openwindows developers guide uims user interface management system subject what the icccm how write friendly applications the inter client communication conventions manual one the official consortium standards documents that define the environment describes the conventions that clients must observe coexist peacefully with other clients sharing the same server you are writing clients you need read and understand the icccm particular the sections discussing the selection mechanism and the interaction between your client and the window manager get either part the distribution from mit the later editions the scheifler gettys window system book appendix the new version reilly volume protocol reference manual version old copies their volume obsolete the version the digital press book much more readable thanks the efforts digital press editors improve the english and the presentation from david rosenthal the icccm was updated for updates are published reilly programmer supplement for release the complete document the tapes alternate definition the icccm generally the rtfm and the most important the least read documents subject what the consortium and how join the mit consortium was formed january further the development the window system and has its major goal the promotion cooperation within the computer industry the creation standard software interfaces all layers the window system environment mit role provide the vendor neutral architectural and administrative leadership required make this work membership the consortium open any organization there are two categories membership member for large organizations and affiliate for smaller organizations most the consortium activities take place via electronic mail with meetings when required designs and specifications take shape interest groups are formed from experts the participating organizations typically small multi organization architecture team leads the design with others acting close observers and reviewers once complete specification produced may submitted for formal technical review the consortium proposed standard the standards process typically includes public review outside the consortium and demonstration proof concept your involvement the public review process member affiliate the consortium welcomed write bob scheifler mit consortium laboratory for computer science technology square cambridge for complete information see the xconsortium man page from the distribution from which this information adapted subject just what are open look and motif open look and motif are two graphical user interfaces guis open look was developed sun with help from and many industry reviewers motif was developed the open software foundation osf with input from many osf members open look primarily user interface specification and style guide there are several toolkits which can used produce open look applications motif includes api specification the only sanctioned motif toolkit the one from osf however there are other toolkits which can used produce programs which look and behave like osf motif one these parcplace formerly solbourne virtual toolkit which provides objects the style open look and motif the user choice open look gui also the name product from comprising their open look intrinsics toolkit and variety applications thanks ian darwin ian com subject just what openwindows open windows sun product that encompasses window system that combines news and compliant server news user interface specification open look and series toolkits that implement including the sunview like xview and the based olit xlib and implementations and number utilities olwm window manager filemgr shelltool etc thanks frank greco fgreco govt shearson com subject just what decwindows decwindows dec product that encompasses server the xui toolkit including the dwt widget set and uil xlib and implementations session manager and number utilities dxwm window manager dxcalendar dxpsview etc some point motif flavors the toolkit and applications will shipped subject what pex pex the phigs extension phigs stands for programmer hierarchical interactive graphics system and essentially library functions that simplifies the creation and manipulation graphics many platforms are capable performing hardware the computations involved rendering objects the extension allows the client phigs this case take advantage the specialized hardware for graphics sun microsystems currently contracted develop freely redistributable copyright similar the current copyright sample implementation source and documentation are available the release several vendors are currently selling independently developed pex servers for their workstations and terminals last modified subject what low bandwidth lbx xremote ppp slip cslip there are several options for using over serial lines slip serial line this both mechanism and protocol for sending packets over point point serial links has been around for several years and implementations are available for many the major tcp implementations most terminal vendors supply this checkoff item although nobody really ever uses since horribly slow the tcp headers add bytes per packet and the tcp encoding the protocol rather verbose rightfully optimized for packing and unpacking over high speed links cslip compressed header slip this variant slip that compresses the bytes tcp headers down about bytes still doesn anything about reencoding the protocol modems that compression can help but they increase packet latency takes time dribble the uncompressed data through typical serial interfaces plus the compression assembly time ppp point point protocol this emerging standard for point point links over serial lines that has more complete set option negotiation than slip growing number people see the combination ppp for the serial line management and cslip for the header compression becoming common for running normal tcp protocols over serial lines running raw over the wire still needs compression somewhere make usable xremote this the name both protocol and set products originally developed ncd for squeezing the protocol over serial lines addition using low level transport mechanism similar ppp cslip xremote removes redundancies the protocol sending deltas against previous packets and using lzw compress the entire data stream this work done either pseudo server proxy running the host terminal server there are several advantages doing compression outside the modem you don have have compressing modems there you wouldn otherwise using them you were going directly connected and reduces the overhead cutting down the number bytes that have cross the serial interface and addition the effects reduces the latency delivering packets not requiring the modem buffer the data waiting for blocks compress lbx low bandwidth this consortium project that working standard for this area being chaired ncd and xerox and using ncd xremote protocol stepping stone developing the new protocol lbx will beyond xremote adding proxy caching commonly used information connection setup data large window properties font metrics keymaps etc and more efficient encoding the protocol the hope have standard ready for public review the first half next year and sample implementation available additional technical information about how xremote works and few notes how lbx might different are available via anonymous ftp from export lcs mit edu contrib the following files xremote slides slides describing xremote xremote lbx diffs more slides describing some lbx information provided jim fulton jim ncd com there also set slides export from jim fulton talk the mit technical conference subject topic using day day life subject what are all these different window managers the window manager just another client not part the window system although enjoys special privileges and there single window manager instead there are many which support different ways for the user interact with windows and different styles window layout decoration and keyboard and colormap focus approximate chronological order generally the more recent ones are more conformant with the icccm this simple title bar window manager was phased out uwm the universal window manager still popular for its speed although very outdated moved contrib the tape twm old tom window manager was among the first non mit window managers and offered the user great deal customization options parenting window manager awm the ardent window manager remains hotbed for hackers and offers some features dynamic menus not found more current window managers cwm cwm part the andrew system rtl siemen window manager tiles windows that they don overlap and resizes the window with the focus its preferred size dxwm digital dxwm part the decwindows offering hpwm window manager offers look precursor mwm mwm the motif window manager part the osf motif toolkit tekwm tektronix window manager offering olwm sun olwm implements the open look gui and some the style guide functionality olwm ditto gwm bull generic window manager emulates others with built lisp interpreter version the contrib tape avahi inria and export lcs mit edu swm the sigma window manager the tape pswm sun postscript based pswm part the openwindows release swm solbourne swm based the toolkit and offers multiple gui support and also panned virtual window configuration information comes from the resources file twm new mit new tab window manager from the tape reworked twm and the basis for several derivatives including the one the tape vtwm vtwm offers some the virtual desktop features swm with single root window implementation based the twm and available archive servers new version vtwm based and available from export tvtwm tom virtual tab window manager also based the twm and provides virtual desktop modeled the virtual root window swm available archive servers olvwm the vtwm style virtual desktop added sun olwm available archive servers version export mvwm the vtwm style virtual desktop added osf mwm beta version floating around most recently from suresh unipalm but requires source license osf motif ncdwm the window manager local ncd terminals offers mwm look xdswm the window manager local visual technology terminals ctwm claude lecommandeur lecom sic epfl modification the twm offers virtual screens the fashion vuewm source export version also offers the window overview used vtwm and tvtwm vuewm mwm based window manager offers configurable workspaces dwm sgi enhanced mwm piewm this version tvtwm offers pie menus subject why does session exit when kill window manager sic needn what probably happening that you are running your window manager the last job your xsession xinitrc file your session runs only long the last job running and killing your window manager equivalent logging out instead run the window manager the background and the last job instead invoke something safe like exec xterm name login iconic any special client your devising which exits some user action your session will continue until you explicitly logout this window whether not you kill restart your window manager subject can save the state session like toolplaces does although known window manager directly supports such feature which may equivalent writing out xinitrc xsession file naming the geometry and command each application but olvwm may have something close there contributed application which does much what you are looking for although not complete the sunview program toolplaces look for the application xplaces archive server near you there are several versions this program floating around look for recent vintage some new pseudo session managers such vuewm provide for the saving sessions including information the geometry currently running applications and the resource database bjxrn stabell bjoerns staff uit subject how use another window manager with dec session manager dec session manager will start dxwm default override this add your xdefaults file something like this line naming the full pathname windowmanagername wherever usr bin your favorite subject how change the keyboard auto repeat rate you can turn auto repeat off using xset off the protocol however doesn provide for varying the auto repeat rate which capability not supported all systems some servers running systems that support this however may provide command line flags set the rate start time you have control over server start see the man pages for xinit and xdm you can invoke the server with the chosen settings for example you can start the xsun server from mit with the options reduce the sensitivity the keyboard subject how remap the keys keyboard produce string there method arranging for particular string produced when you press particular key the xmodmap client which useful for moving your ctrl and esc keys useful places just rearranges keys and does not macro expansion some few clients including xterm and several based editors accept translation resource such xterm translations override key string setenv display unix which permits the shorthand pressed reset the display locally within xterm takes effect for new xterm clients include control characters the string use nnn where nnn the octal encoding the control character you want include window managers which could provide this facility not yet nor has special remapper client been made available david lewis faq craft uunet net just the faqs joe friday david lewis temporarily but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet net
comp.windows.x	comp windows frequently asked questions faq archive name faq part last modified subject how make screendump print application the xwd client the distributions can used select window the background produces xwd format file the image that window the file can post processed into something useful printed with the xpr client and your local printing mechanism you can use this command csh sleep xwd root output xwd and then spend seconds setting your screen the entire current display will saved into the file output xwd note that xwd also has undocumented before flag for specifying the window the command line there are also unofficial patches export xwd for specifying the delay and the portion the screen capture two publicly available programs which allow interactive definition arbitrary portions the display and built delays are asnap and xgrabsc there are several versions xgrabsc version available export the most recent xsnap includes some asnap features and supersedes also renders xpm output version unknown available export avahi inria see xsnap tar screen dump and merge edit program combining features xwd and xpr available from vernam uwm edu xdump tar information soft eng uwm edu xprint alberto accomazzi alberto cfa harvard edu available from cfa xprint export tar post process the xwd output some these tools you can use xpr which part the distribution also several archives are xwd and xtops which produce encapsulated postscript with trimmings suitable for use presentations see export lcs mit edu contrib xwd tar and contrib imagemagick tar also useful the pbmplus package many archive servers and the xim package contains level color postscript output the program can grab portion the display manipulate and save one the available formats imagemagick has similar capabilities also bristol technology info bristol com offers xprinter xlib api for postscript and pcl printers demo ftp net vendor bristol xprinter colorsoft offers openprint package includes screen capture facility image processing and support for postscript and non postscript printers some vendors implementations decwindows and openwindows include session managers other desktop programs which include print portion screen take snapshot options some platforms also have tools which can used grab the frame buffer directly the sun systems for example have screendump program which produces sun raster file some terminals have local screen dump utilities write postscript local serial printer some vendors implementations lpr sony include direct support for printing xwd files but you typically need some other package massage the output into useful format which you can get the printer subject how make color postscript screendump the display you need color postscript particular you can grab the screen image using program which can produce color postscript such xgrabsc and grab the screen image using xwd and post process xwd into color you can this using xwd the xtops program from the imagemagick distribution the pbmplus package also good for this the xim package subject how make screendump including the cursor this can done unless the server has been extended consider instead system dependent mechanism for capturing the frame buffer subject how convert view mac tiff gif sun pict img fax images the likeliest program incarnation jef poskanzer useful portable bitmap toolkit which includes number programs for converting among various image formats includes support for many types bitmaps gray scale images and full color images pbmplus has been updated recently the most recent version export contrib pbmplus dec tar another tool san diego supercomputing center imtools imconv particular which packages the functionality pbm into single binary available anonymous ftp from sdsc edu useful for viewing some image formats jim frost xloadimage version which the directory contrib clients xloadimage there are later versions available including contrib xloadimage tar export graeme gill updates earlier version xloadimage are also export see xli readme and xli tar version was released image viewer written bradley cis upenn edu john bradley can read and display pictures sun raster pgm pbm ppm bitmap tiff gif and jpeg can manipulate the images adjust color intensity contrast aspect ratio crop can save images all the aforementioned formats plus postscript can grab portion the display manipulate and save one the available formats the program was updated see the file contrib tar export lcs mit edu the fuzzy pixmap manipulation michael mauldin mlm cmu edu conversion and manipulation package similar pbmplus version available via ftp cmu edu usr mlm ftp fbm tar uunet net pub fbm tar and ucsd edu graphics fbm tar the img software set paul raveling raveling venera isi edu reads and writes its own image format displays screen and does some image manipulations version available via ftp expo lcs mit edu contrib img tar along with large collection color images the utah rle toolkit conversion and manipulation package similar pbmplus available via ftp utah edu pub urt weedeater math yale edu pub urt and freebie engin umich edu pub urt xim the image manipulator philip thompson does essential interactive displaying editing filtering and converting images there version the contrib area but more recent version using and motif available from gis mit edu xim reads writes gif xwd xbm tiff rle xim writes level eps and other formats and also has library and command line utilities for building your own applications imagemagick cristy dupont com can retrieved from export contrib area collection utilities transform and display images any server the tool uses the miff format filters and from miff from other popular formats ppm tiff gif sun raster etc are included xtiff tool for viewing tiff file window was written handle many different kinds tiff files possible while remaining simple portable and efficient xtiff illustrates some common problems with building pixmaps and using different visual classes distributed part sam leffler libtiff package and also available export lcs mit edu uunet net and comp sources dbs decwrl dec com xtiff was announced includes xlib and versions version lee iverson leei mcrcim mcgill edu image viewing tool available contrib vimage tar export lcs mit edu the package also includes imageviewport widget and filedialog widget some material from larry carroll larryc poe jpl nasa gov subject how can change the titlebar xterm window the solution involves sending escape sequence xterm which will cause update the property which the window manager relies upon for the string which appears the window titlebar solution easy typing this xterm running shell echo esc text where esc the escape key text the string you wish have displayed and control the bel character here more complicated csh alias which changes the titlebar the current working directory when you change directories alias newcd echo esc cwd the digit these strings indicates xterm that should change only the title the window change both the title and the name used the icon use the digit instead and use change only the icon name note another way this which prevents incorrect display the local directory modified used subshell wrap the escape sequences into the prompt itself note ibm may necessary begin the sequence with subject where can find the xterm control sequences the best source such information your sources the file ctlseqs postscript version mit hardcopy clients ctlseqs reilly volume the user guide includes version the control sequences the standard volume will available and motif version the book available now the current guide includes outdated version the control sequences other good sources information include the version that document and also the file the sources called mit clients xterm ctlseq txt compilation put together skip montanaro listing the sequences dates from but fairly accurate hardcopy version was published the december xnextevent the xug newsletter pinch manual will last updated subject why does the xterm fail against the server subject how can use characters above ascii xterm order use special characters such the umlaut you need stty pass but also use charcell iso font such xterm font medium normal iso xterm boldfont bold normal iso the family intentionally unspecified this example addition you may want set this your shell setenv ctype iso for given character above you can determine the key use with the alt modifier finding the equivalent character below try using man ascii for example umlaut alt and the section character alt thanks greg holmberg greg thirdi uunet net and stephen gildea gildea expo lcs mit edu subject why are xterm menus small you are probably setting the geometry small accidentally you give resource specification like this xterm geometry then you are asking for all widgets under xterm have their geometry set for the main window this uses characters for its size but its popup menus don they are pixels and show small set only the terminal widget have the specified geometry name explicitly xterm geometry subject how can print the current selection you could paste into xterm after executing the lpr command however program richard hesketh rlh ukc specifically for manipulating the selection will help xselection primary lpr finds the primary selection and prints this command can placed window manager menu shell scripts xselection also permits the setting the selection and other properties version export also available ria ccs uwo pub xget selection tar which can adapted this subject how does use environment variables loading resources you can use several environment variables control how resources are loaded for your based programs xfilesearchpath xuserfilesearchpath and xapplresdir these environment variables control where looks for application defaults files application initializing loads most one app defaults file from the path defined xfilesearchpath and another from the path defined xuserfilesearchpath set xfilesearchpath software installed your system such way that app defaults files appear several different directory hierarchies suppose for example that you are running sun open windows and you also have some applications installed usr lib app defaults you could set value like this for xfilesearchpath and would cause look app defaults files both usr lib and usr openwin lib wherever your openwinhome located setenv xfilesearchpath usr lib openwinhome lib the value this environment variable colon separated list pathnames the pathnames contain replacement characters follows see xtresolvepathname the value the filename parameter the application class name the value the file type this case the literal string app defaults customization resource only suffix none for app defaults language locale and codeset euc language part the territory part the display language string the codeset part the display language string let take apart the example suppose the application class name myterm also suppose open windows installed usr openwin notice the example omits locale specific lookup usr lib means usr lib app defaults myterm openwinhome lib means usr openwin lib app defaults myterm the application initializes tries open both the above app defaults files the order shown soon finds one reads and uses and stops looking for others the effect this path search first usr lib then usr openwin let consider another example this time let set xuserfilesearchpath looks for the file myterm the current working directory then for myterm the directory app defaults setenv xuserfilesearchpath home app defaults the first path the list expands myterm the second expands home app defaults myterm this convenient setting for debugging because follows the imake convention naming the app defaults file myterm the application source directory you can run the application from the directory which you are working and still have the resources loaded properly note when looking for app default files with xuserfilesearchpath for some bizarre reason neither the type nor file suffix defined and are useless with there another twist you may specify customization resource value for example you might run the myterm application like this myterm xrm customization color one your pathname specifications had the value usr lib then the expanded pathname would usr lib app defaults myterm color because the substitution character takes the value the customization resource the default xfilesearchpath compiled into usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib usr lib note some sites replace usr lib with projectroot this batch default settings the default xuserfilesearchpath also compiled into root root root root root root root either the value xapplresdir the user home directory xapplresdir not set you set xuserfilesearchpath some value other than the default ignores xapplresdir altogether notice that the quick and dirty way making your application find your app defaults file your current working directory set xapplresdir single dot all this machinery worked differently for compatibilty many people set their xapplresdir value dot followed slash thanks oliver jones world std com subject how have the xdm put picture behind the log window the answer lies changing xdm xrdb resource the xdm config file run program change the background before loading the resources for example your usr lib xdm xdm config file may add the line displaymanager authorize false permit unrestricted access the display before log beware and also displaymanager xrdb usr lib xdm new xrdb where that file does something for all connections along the lines bin comes with arguments display load usr lib xdm xresources usr bin xsetroot display bitmap usr lib xdm new bitmap usr bin xrdb substitute xloadimage for xsetroot taste note that this general hack that can used invoke console window any other client thanks jay bourland jayb cauchy stanford edu subject why isn path set when xdm runs xsession file when xdm runs your xsession doesn source your cshrc login files you can set the path explicitly you normally could for any script you can place all environment setting statements separate file and source from both the xsession file and your shell configuration file you set your path your cshrc file the normal place you can make your xsession have path set simply making csh script starting your xsession file off with bin csh this doesn work also try starting off with bin reset path path csh echo path export path subject how keep display when rlogin another machine there are several ways avoid having setenv display whenever you log another networked unix machine running one solution use the clients xrsh the contrib tape includes xrsh script start application remote machine and xrlogin script start local xterm running rlogin remote machine more recent version export xrsh shar one solution use the xrlogin program from der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu you can ftp caveat emptor versions from xrlogin and xrlogind the program packages term and display into single string which stuffed into term rlogin then propagates term normally your cshrc the remote machine should contain eval xrlogind where xrlogind program that checks term and the special format recognizes unpacks and spits out setenv and unsetenv commands recreate the environment variables addition all you need start remote process another host and you find rsh host usr bin xterm display display too simple display must have your real hostname then this version xrsh can used start remote processes the equivalent usage would xrsh host xterm bin start process another host date dec gmt from chris torek chris mimsy umd edu rsh host setenv display display exec dev null dev null improved version rxcmd suggested john robinson bbn com generalized for ksh keith boyer keith cis ohio state edu but they put the rcmd which left zombies again this script combines the best both case echo usage host cmd args case shell csh host shift xhost host dev null rsh host setenv term xterm setenv display hostname exec dev null dev null host shift xhost host dev null rsh host term xterm export term display hostname export display library path usr lib export library path path path usr bin usr bin usr local bin export path exec dev null dev null esac esac subject how can design own font one way use the bitmap client some other bitmap editor sun icon editor tool post processed with pbmplus design the individual characters and then some large amount post processing concatenate them into the bdf format see ollie jones article the november journal for more information the contrib area fonts utils and clients xtroff contained number useful utilities including some convert between bdf font format and simple character format which can edited with any text editor easier way use the xfed client modify existing font version the contrib tape contrib clients xfed xfed available for anonymous ftp ftp informatik uni dortmund possibly file pub windows diverse sourcen xfed tar can produce bdf format fonts which can compiled for variety servers the xfedor client from group bull permits creation bitmaps cursors xpm pixmaps and fonts binaries for common machines are avahi inria pub addition the sources old xlib implementation have been placed export contrib you are metafont user you can use mftobdf from the seetex distribution convert and pxl fonts bdf format the distribution ftp colorado edu and export lcs mit edu the gnu package fontutils tar prep mit edu includes xbfe font editor and number utilities for massaging font formats the reilly resource issue contains article using these tools modify font fonts can resized with hiroto kagotani bdfresize new version ftp titech contrib subject why does adding font the server not work sic after you have built the font using your system font compiler installed some directory and run mkfontdir your system equivalent bldfamily for openwindows that directory sure use xset dir add that full path name the server font path the directory already the path use xset rehash that the new fonts that directory are actually found this last step that you probably leaving out you can also use xset make sure that that directory the path sometimes your xset dir command fails with badvalue error error failed request badvalue integer parameter out range for operation major opcode failed request setfontpath this means the server cannot find read your font directory that your directory does not look like font directory the server the mention integer parameter the message spurious the font directory you specifying readable from the server file system remember the server not the client which interprets your font directory trouble this area especially likely when you issue xset command with shell metacharacters xset myfonts and the server terminal managed xdm the directory really font directory you running mit server most varieties vendor servers look the directory for the file fonts dir you can find that file run mkfontdir you running openwindows look for the file families list you can find run bldfamily you site where some people run servers and others run proprietary server with nonstandard font formats openwindows for example make sure the font directory right for the server you using hint the directory contains pcf and snf files won work for open windows the directory contains and files won work for thanks der mouse mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu and oliver jones pictel com subject how convert snf font back bdf font tool called snftobdf part the bdftools package which available from export lcs mit edu contrib bdftools tar and from crl nmsu edu pub misc bdftools tar subject what general method getting font usable format der mouse getbdf one solution connects server and produces bdf file for any font the server willing let can used anything bdf converter but requires access server that can understand the font file thus both more and less powerful than other tools such snftobdf getbdf getbdf available via mail from mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu addition the program fstobdf can produce bdf for any font that the server has access subject how use decwindows fonts non decwindows server the decwindows fonts typically don exist non dec installation but rewrite rules can used alias fonts used decwindows applications standard mit fonts similar characteristics and size pick the file contrib decwindows font aliases from export lcs mit edu this file for standard mit server can also serve starting point for creating similar aliases file for the open windows server other servers which not use the mit font scheme subject how add bdf fonts decwindows server the format fonts preferred dec server the pcf format you can produce this compiled format from the bdf format using dec dxfc font compiler note that the dec servers can also use raw bdf fonts with performance hit subject how can set backgroundpixmap defaults file what xpm want able something like this xclock backgroundpixmap usr include bitmaps rootweave you can this the backgroundpixmap resource pixmap the same depth the screen not bitmap which pixmap depth because this writing generic string pixmap converter impossible since there accepted convention for file format for pixmaps therefore neither the toolkit the athena widget set define string pixmap converter because there converter you cannot specify this value resource the athena widget set does define string bitmap converter for use many its widgets however courtesy chris peterson now kit ics com however specific converter which encapsulates much the functionality the xloadimage package jim frost was posted sebastian wangnick basti unido informatik uni dortmund permits loading number image formats pixmap the leading general purpose format for pixmaps the xpm format used groupe bull several its programs including the gwm window manager its olpixmap editor and ics its interface builder xpm distribution available export contrib xpm tar includes read write routines which can easily adapted converters new widgets which want allow specification pixmap resources the above manner see information the xpm talk mailing list above xpm was announced and available from export lcs mit edu and avahi inria older version the contrib tape set xpm icons collected anthony thyssen anthony kurango cit edu export contrib aicons subject why can override translations only the first item works you probably have extra space after the specification the first item like this basic text translations override ctrl key beginning line ctrl key end line extra space the newline after that space ending the translation definition thanks timothy horton subject how can have xclock oclock show different timezones one solution xchron volume comp sources which can show the time for timezones other than the local one alternatively you can probably set the timezone the shell from which you invoke the xclock oclock use script similar this bin pst pdt xclock name san luis obispo dev null est edt xclock name king prussia dev null subject have xmh but doesn work where can get the xmh mail reader requires the rand mail message handling system which not part the unix software distribution for many machines list various ftp uucp mail and mail sites for both xmh and given the monthly faq one source ics uci edu the file pub tar you not receive the comp mail newsgroup the users mailing list you can request copy the faq which also includes section xmh sending mail mail server pit manager mit edu containing the request send usenet news answers faq subject why suddenly unable connect sun server after seemingly random amount time after the server has been started other clients are able connect the default cron cleanup jobs supplied sun for least delete old unreferenced files from tmp including tmp unix which contains the socket descriptor used the solution add type the find exclusion the cron job subject why don the pex demos work mono screen the sample server implementation works only color screens sorry subject how get sun type keyboard fully supported xsun many users wants the num lock key light the num lock led and have the appropriate effect the numeric keypad the xsun server distributed mit doesn this but there are two different patches available the first patch written jonathan lemon and fixes the num lock related problems available from export lcs mit edu the file contrib xsun numlock patch the second written martin forssen and fixes the num lock and compose keys and adds support for the different national keyboard layouts for type and type keyboards this patch available from export lcs mit edu contrib sunkbd tar via email from maf dtek chalmers thanks martin forssen maf dtek chalmers maf math chalmers set patches william bailey dbgwab arco com was posted newsgroups provide support for the type keyboard subject how report bugs generally report bugs you find the organization that supplied you with the window system you received the source distribution directly from mit please read the file mit bug report for instructions look mit doc bugs bug report thanks stephen gildea gildea expo lcs mit edu subject why get warning widget class version mismatch this error which typically goes say widget intrinsics indicates that the header files you included when building your program didn match the header files that the library you linking against was built with check your include path and link path sure however the problem also occurs when linking against version the library before patch the version number was wrong some sun systems particular were shipped with the flawed version the library and applications which link against the library typically give the warnings you have seen subject where can find dictionary server for xwebster webster still owns the copyright the line copies webster dictionary which are found various university sites after became aware that these sites were then acting servers for other sites running xwebster and gnuemacs webster asked that server sites close off external access the next machine apparently also licensed have the dictionary webster daemon for next machines available from iuvax indiana edu pub webster next unless you want get legal line copy yourself can find site which can grant you access you are probably out luck however you are legitimate site you want pick the latest xwebster export contrib xwebster tar the file xwebster readme includes discussions the availability illegality and non availability dictionary servers courtesy steve umiacs umd edu steve miller and mayer hplabs com niels mayer subject topic obtaining and related software and hardware subject public domain software the software copyrighted various institutions and not public domain which has specific legal meaning however the distribution available for free and can redistributed without fee contributed software though may placed the public domain individual authors subject how compatible are and what changes are there the release notes for each mit release specify the changes from the previous release the consortium tries very hard maintain compatibility across releases the few places where incompatible changes were necessary details are given the release notes each distribution site the network also offers the release notes that with the release they offer the file typically can found the top the distribution tree stephen gildea the comp windows intrinsics faq lists differences among these versions subject where can get source and binaries information about mit distribution the sources bpi and qic tape and its distribution hardcopy the documents available from software center technology licensing office massachusetts institute technology carleton street room cambridge phone you will need about disk space hold all core and hold the contrib software donated individuals and companies please use site that close you the network note that the release notes are generally available separately the same directory the notes list changes from previous versions and offer guide the distribution north america anonymous ftp california gatekeeper dec com pub california soda berkeley edu pub indiana mordred purdue edu pub maryland ftp brl mil pub good for milnet sites massachusetts crl dec com pub massachusetts export lcs mit edu pub crl dec com better michigan merit edu pub missouri wuarchive wustl edu packages montana ftp montana edu pub new mexico pprg eece unm edu pub dist new york azure acsu buffalo edu pub north carolina duke edu dist sources ohio ftp cis ohio state edu pub ontario ftp utoronto pub washington net washington net europe middle east australia anonymous ftp australia munnari denmark freja diku pub united kingdom src doc graphics hpb mcc pub finland nic funet pub france nuri inria germany ftp germany net pub israel huji pub italy ghost dsi unimi pub netherlands archive net windows norway ugle unit pub norway nac pub switzerland nic switch software japan anonymous ftp kanagawa wide kwansai ftp ics osaka kyushu wnoc fuk wide tisn utsun tokyo tokyo kerr iwanami tokyo scslwide sony pub uucp uunet for uunet customers decwrl existing neighbors only pub osu cis not online until sept utai existing neighbors only ftp pub netherlands only uucp pub windows nfs missouri wuarchive wustl edu archive packages mount point archive afs pennsylvania afs grand central org pub niftp hhcp cpf fcp united kingdom doc src user guest anon ftam united kingdom janet internet ixi acsnet australia munnari fetchfile please fetch only one file time after checking that copy not available closer site updated for contrib anyone europe can get copy the mit distribution including the core and contributed software and all official patches free charge the only requirement agree return the tapes equivalent new tapes only qic and format cartridges can provided contact jamie watson adasoft nesslerenweg wabern switzerland tel fax adasoft sites can obtain through the ukuug software distribution service from the department computing imperial college london several tape formats you may also obtain the source via janet and therefore pss using niftp host doc src name guest password your email address queries should directed lee mcloughlin info server doc ukuug soft doc send subject line wanted also offered are copies comp sources the export lcs mit edu contrib and doc areas and most other announced freely distributable packages and source along with contrib code prebuilt binaries for major platforms and source code examples from reilly books available iso format rom from reilly associates source available iso format rom for members the japan unix society from hiroaki obata obata jrd dec com source along with gnu source the comp sources archives and sparc binaries available iso format rom from pdq software robert bruce rab sprite berkeley edu source available from automata design associates various users groups sug offer sources cheaply typically rom source for the andrew user interface system and binaries for common systems are available rom information info andrew requests andrew cmu edu fax binaries for with shared libx and libxmu for are now available from wuarchive wustl edu archive systems aux patches for compiled with gcc but not shared libraries are also available john coolidge coolidge uiuc edu binaries rich kaul kaul eng ohio state edu for the sun running sunos are available dsinc dsi com please only after hours usa est binaries for the sun are available from compaq com pub sun sources and from vernam uwm edu binary tree for the next douglas scott doug foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu foxtrot ccmrc ucsb edu missing the server though binaries for the sun are vernam uwm edu sun binaries for the are hpcvaaz com source and binaries for and domain are available through the interworks users group contact carol relph fax relph apollo com patches for solaris casper dik casper fwi uva are export contrib sunos patch tar sunos patch readme patches for the sun type keyboard and the keyboard numlock are available from william bailey dbgwab arco com also binaries are available from unipalm xtech unipalm probably for the sun platforms david lewis faq craft uunet net just the faqs joe friday david lewis temporarily but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet net
comp.windows.x	pointer cursor trying implement pointer feature xlib have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously all other displays want implement pointer feature would like get the pointer come all windows once choose pointer the menu and every one should able see can you give some hints how should proceed new xlib replies will greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri odu edu
comp.windows.x	lost tekhvc color space please respond via email has anybody actually seen the tek color space stuff working not having any luck with either the xtici editor from export lcs mit edu with reilly ftp able example xcms from ftp net the reilly example fails for almost every set inputs because xcmstekhvcquerymaxv returns smaller value than xcmstekhvcqueryminv does which makes sense the xtici editor fails xcmsstorecolors apparently because the mathematical manipulations the color specs results invalid values you can actually edit any colors have patch level bit pseudocolor visual poked around the xcms code xlib but without some understanding the theory have idea what going wrong can somebody confirm either the above mentioned programs work their systems let know they fail for you too please include what hardware software patch levels you have any hints please respond with email don regularly read this group thanks karen karen bircsak concurrent computer corporation karenb westford ccur com
comp.windows.x	comp windows frequently asked questions faq archive name faq part last modified subject where can get patches the release new public patches the mit consortium announced the comp windows announce newsgroup patches themselves are available via ftp from export and from other sites from which available they are now also distributed through the newsgroup comp sources some source sellers may including patches their source distributions people without ftp access can use the xstuff mail server now has patches for send xstuff expo lcs mit edu the subject line send fixes where the name the patch and usually just the number the patch here are few complications fix four parts you need request and separately the file sungx which was part earlier patch was released with patch note the file doesn work with solaris fix two parts and fix three parts and fix two parts and fix replaces the fix test for the test suite which previously was optional fix also needs pexlib tar which you can obtain from xstuff asking for pexlib fix parts through subject what the xstuff mail archive the xstuff server mail response program that means that you mail request and mails back the response any the four possible commands must the first word line the xstuff server reads your entire message before does anything you can have several different commands single message unless you ask for help the xstuff server treats the subject header line just like any other line the message the archives are organized into series directories and subdirectories each directory has index and each subdirectory has index the top level index gives you overview what the subdirectories and the index for each subdirectory tells you what the command help send help causes the server send you more detailed version this help file your message contains line whose first word index then the server will send you the top level index the contents the archive there are other words that line that match the name subdirectories then the indexes for those subdirectories are sent instead the top level index for example you can say send index fixes index fixes message that requests index cannot request data your message contains line whose first word send then the xstuff server will send you the item named the rest the line name item you give its directory and its name for example send fixes you may issue multiple send requests the xstuff server contains many safeguards ensure that not monopolized people asking for large amounts data the mailer set that will send more than fixed amount data each day the work queue contains more requests than the day quota then the unsent files will not processed until the next day whenever the mailer run send its day quota sends the requests out shortest first some mailers produce mail headers that are unusable for extracting return addresses you use such mailer you won get any response you happen know explicit path you can include line like path foo bar bitnet mitvma mit edu path bar foo frotz the body your message and the daemon will use the xstuff server itself can reached xstuff expo lcs mit edu your mailer deals notation try sending someplace mit eddie expo lcs mit edu xstuff based information from the mit consortium subject where can get source and binaries integrated computer solutions inc ships half inch quarter inch and formats call for ordering information the free software foundation sells half inch tapes and qic cartridges yaser doleh doleh math kent edu box kent making available format tapes track and sun cartridges european sites can obtain free distribution from jamie watson who may reached chx pan pan non standard logics requests nsl makes source available ixi limited selling source quarter inch cartridge formats and and floppy with other formats available request ixi virtual technologies provides the entire compressed source release single qic quarter inch cartridge and also meg meg floppies upon request conor cahill cpcahil virtech net young minds makes the and gnu distributions available full text indexed rom note that some distributions are media only and not include docs ftp able from export lcs mit edu these sites are preferable though and are more direct machine internet ftp location name address directory west usa gatekeeper dec com pub central usa mordred purdue edu pub central usa giza cis ohio state edu pub southeast usa uunet net northeast usa crl dec com pub janet src doc niftp doc src australia munnari the giza cis ohio state edu site particular known have much the contrib stuff that can found export the release available dec easynet sites crl pub sites australia may contact this address ftp adelaide edu and check the directory pub the machine shadows export and archives comp sources mark prior mrp ucs adelaide edu note much more complete list distributed part the introductory postings comp sources set binaries built tom roell roell informatik muenchen for the will available from export lcs mit edu contrib and pub from europe stephen hite shite sinkhole unf edu can also distribute folks without ftp facilities via disks sent sase contact him for usmail and shipping details addition the binaries are available via uucp from szebra pep ogin nuucp sword nuucp usr xbbs bbs addition the source zok usrx server addition you are the the latest svr binary april patches and fonts are available piggy ucsb edu the directory pub same filenames above please use after pacific these are large files set binaries available hpcvaaz com ftp pub mitx libs set binaries for the next have been made available howie kaye cunixf columbia edu set binaries john coolidge coolidge uiuc edu for the mac running available from wuarchive wustl edu the file archive systems aux xupdate tar also diffs set patches for making with shared libraries with mkshlib complete distribution sco binaries baruch cochavy blue techunix technion can found uunet the server roell compiled for based svga boards subject where can get osf motif you can obtain either osf motif source binaries from number vendors motif source now available based motif based the intrinsics and currently osf motif source license must obtained from osf before source can obtained from the open software foundation any value added vendor for any version call the direct channels desk osf for ordering information various hardware vendors produce developer toolkits binaries header files and documentation check your hardware vendor particularly that vendor osf member addition independent binary vendors produce motif toolkits for machines for which motif not supported vendor the kits include varied levels bug fixing and support for shared libraries and are based widely divergent version motif quest sells kits for suns well ixi offers kits for sun and sun nsl requests nsl offers kits for the sun and sun bluestone consulting makes kit for sun systems ics makes several binary kits notably for sun dec and dec have announced support for motif sun systems unipalm currently offers for sun systems motif development kit including and based motif the distributor expert object corp bim ships motif binaries for suns shared library support included contact alain vermeiren sunbim danny backx sunbim fax belgium silogic ships motif and motif sun machines systems offers motif for solaris info usa and canada metro link inc sales metrolink com europe contact adnt univision ltd ships implementation and motif including shared library implementation libxm for the unix market motif also available for sun sparc based workstations has also announced motif for solaris systems subject does motif work with motif based motif available source form from osf august uses the vanilla intrinsics where vanilla means with just few patches the file fix osf which osf distributes obsoleted mit patches the file fix osf distributed with the version its subsequent modification needs applied after mit fix though motif will work with compiled with dmotifbc and later should work with the vanilla although there are some known new geometry management problems subject where can get toolkits implementing open look sun xview has sunview style api version the tape the latest sources are export contrib xview xview and binaries for the sun roadrunner are available for ftp from svin win tue directory pub supported binaries xview include xview for non sun platforms domestic and selected international vendors several are also available from sun contact your local sales office amiga gfxbase inc ellwell drive amigados milpitas fax sgi sony news ibm decstation unipress software lincoln highway ultrix edison fax unipress software ltd box viking house fax nelson street douglas isle man united kingdom dec vaxstation tgv mission street vms tgv santa cruz fax unipalm ltd neots road hardwick fax cambridge england intel quarterdeck office pico boulevard dos systems santa monica fax intel sunsoft corporation center drive west interactive suite unix and los angeles sco unix stardent scripps institute clinic stellix fax torrey pines road and titan include mailstop jolla ftp pub binary xview readme xview tar open look gui based toolkit now generally available contact unix for information binaries are produced for sparc systems international quest corporation version the toolkit also produced under the name olit sun more recent versions olit have been ported ibm and dec mips both unipress and ics olit also available for from melillo consulting mjm somerset makes olit for series running hpux decstations and thanks joanne newbauer attunix att com sun shipping openwindows contact your local sales representative for more details the package includes toolkit binaries and header files parcplace formerly solbourne extensible based object interface library which supports run time selection between open look motif available from subject where can get other sources including modifications the mit software center ships the test suite tape multi threaded version xlib based patch now available for anonymous ftp from new version dec gatekeeper dec com pub contrib xlib mit export lcs mit edu contrib xlib has made available drivers permit the building the sample server the series workstations the files are export lcs mit edu ftp contrib srv user contributed software distributed through the newsgroup comp sources moderated chris olson chris imd sterling com also check that group for posting information richard hesketh rlh ukc has been creating list freely available sources the list stored export lcs mit edu contrib source list lists the main storage locations for the program and international sites from which may ftp the machine export lcs mit edu has great deal user contributed software the contrib directory good deal present current earlier versions the and contrib tapes there are also directories for fixes contrib software the file export contrib index txt quick overall index the software that area provided daniel lewart lewart uiuc edu these sites used and may still mirror export and are particular use for australasia anonymous ftp ftp adelaide edu acsnet fetchfile sirius the material giza cis ohio state edu which tends duplicate the export archives also available via anonymous uucp from osu cis and speeds write uucp cis ohio state edu same osu cis uucp for instructions the archive now maintained karl kleinpaste new west coast uucp archive administered mark snitily mark zok uucp and contains the full distribution the xtest distribution entire archive comp sources and other goodies the machine zok has modem which will connect baud that order the anonymous uucp account uxarch with password xgoodies the modem phone number sample systems sys entry might zok any acu uxarch word xgoodies get current listing the files that are available download the file usrx full subject index the comp sources files available the file usrx comp sources index the machine has just the one modem please not fetch large amounts data one sitting courtesy mark snitily addition uunet source archives tracks comp sources and provides compressed programs bpi tapes tapes also mirrors export contrib its packages directory subject where can get interesting widgets the free widget foundation fwf library sponsored brian totty totty uiuc edu now available uiuc edu pub fwf shar the set widgets there intended form the basis for future contributions added the discussion list send listserv uiuc edu message saying subscribe listname your full name where listname one free widgets announce free widgets development free widgets bugs version current look for the xew widget set contains widgets for data representation version export contrib xew tar peter ware open widget set which has motif like functionality archive cis ohio state edu pub tar the athenatools plotter widget set version beta maintained peter klingebiel klin iat uni paderborn includes many graph and plotting widgets copy export plotter tar plotter doc tar plotter afm tar and plotter readme the latest versions may fact ftp uni paderborn unix tools advance version marc quinton motif port the fwf multilist widget ftp stna stna dgac pub multilist tar additional widgets are available the contrib portion the tapes these include the xcu set paul johnston johnston spc jpl nasa gov control panel widget set emulates hardware counterparts sources are export lcs mit edu tar reilly volume doug young book the asente swick book and jerry smith object oriented programming with the window system toolkits all include details writing widgets and include several useful widgets sources are typically export and uunet the dirt interface builder includes the libxukc widet set which extends the functionality xaw graph widget and other plot and contour widgets sundar narasimhan sundar mit edu are available from ftp mit edu com ftp pub users sundar graph tar the graph widget has been updated with documentation and histogram capabilities graph widget available from ftp stna stna dgac pub graph tar uses segment list for drawing and hence supports zoom operation ken lee widget demo that uses display postscript draw labels non horizontal angle export contrib dpslabel tar the table widget works like troff tbl tables available several flavors one which with the widget creation library release bell communications research has developed matrix widget for complex application layouts export contrib xbae widgets tar the distribution also includes caption widget associate labels with particular gui components dan connolly connolly convex com xcrichtext interprets rtf data export contrib xcrichtext tar the xmgraph motif based graphing widget iworks ecn uiowa edu comp gui classic xmgraph tar although may not stable tex style layout widget keith packard described the proceedings the mit technical conference reilly resource volume source available export contrib layout tar version lee iverson leei mcrcim mcgill edu image viewing tool available contrib vimage tar export lcs mit edu the package also includes imageviewport widget and filedialog widget addition the pext toolkit rich thomson rthomson dsd com available export pext tar includes pex widget making easier use pex based programs motif port the xaw clock widget ftp stna stna dgac pub clock tar modification the xaw scrollbar widget which supports the arrowhead style other toolkits export contrib xaw scrollbar mta beta release the xaw widgets with visual appearance kaleb keithley kaleb thyme jpl nasa gov available export contrib xaw xaw tar the library which binary compatible with the mit xaw implements subclass which handles the extra drawing also the xmt motif tools dovetail systems shareware library widgets and many convenience functions available from export lcs mit edu contrib and ftp ora com pub xbook xmt xmt readme and xmt tar the xtra xwidgets set includes widgets for pie and bar charts plots help spreadsheets data entry forms and line and bar graphs contact graphical software technology info gst com for information the xrt graph widget available for motif xview and olit displays plots bar and pie charts and supports user feedback fast updates and postscript output contact group inc info klg com set data entry widgets for motif available from marlan software gwg world std com set graph widgets available from expert database systems set osf motif compound widgets and support routines for visualization available from quek lee hian national computer board republic singapore tel fax leehian iti gov leehian itivax bitnet the ics widget databook includes variety control widgets and special purpose widgets available variety platforms information info ics com information graphing tools may obtained from info tomsawyer com fax subject where can get good file selector widget the free widget foundation set offers fileselector widget with separate directory path and file listing windows and the filecomplete which has emacs style file completion and expansion other available file requestor widgets include the xifileselector from iris software book the xdbx file selector extracted david nedde daven wpi wpi edu and the filenominator from the axe distribution the ghostview xfig and vimage packages also include file selector widgets subject what widget appropriate use drawing canvas some widget sets have widget particularly for this purpose workspace drawingarea which doesn display anything but lets your application know when has been exposed resized and when has received user key and mouse input the best thing for other widget sets including the athena set create obtain such widget this preferable drawing into core widget and grabbing events with xtaddeventhandler which loses number benefits and encapsulation the functionality least one version has been posted comp sources name the publicly available programs xball and xpic include other versions the athena widget manual mit doc xaw template the distribution includes tutorial and source code simple widget which suitable for use the free widget foundation set contains canvas widget subject what the current state the world terminals jim morton jim applix com posts quarterly comp windows list manufacturers and terminals includes pricing information notable buyers guide surveys include the september issue systems integration subject where can get server with touchscreen lightpen labtam fax offers surface acoustic wave touch screen option its xengine terminals tektronix provides terminal with the xtouch touch screen this terminal may also resold through trident systems metro link supports the elographics serial touch screen controllers subject where can get server dos unix mit already provides server many unixes with support for many the popular video graphics adapters and for other non msdos pcs you can obtain server from these sources xfree formerly enhanced version which was distributed with includes many bug fixes speed improvements and other enhancements source for version export lcs mit edu pub contrib ftp physics and ftp win tue pub addition binaries are ftp physics and ftp win tue among other systems info physics note this package obsoletes glenn lai speedup patches for enhanced server for unixes with boards speedup tar export metro link inc sales metrolink com europe contact adnt ships implementation for the unix market sgcs offers version based thomas roell two headed server binary and source form information info sgcs com isc sco uhc and other well known operating system vendors typically offer servers for msdos pcs daniel mccoy mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov has started posting monthly list non unix servers for pcs macs and amigas includes pricing information the current copy kept export contrib xservers nonunix txt article servers appears the march open systems today also possible use net from programit enables communication among dos and unix machines and can used display sessions your unix display subject where can get server macintosh running macos exodus from white pine software runs any mac with least memory and runs the server within standard macintosh window version supports intermixing and mac windows and the adsp protocol the version supports the shape extension and includes decwindows support apple macx runs macplus newer machines with memory and system software later version fully based supports full icccm compatible cut and paste text and graphics between the macintosh and worlds the shape extension including shaped windows the macintosh desktop optional built icccm compliant window manager fonts and colors built bdf font compiler and built standard colormaps upgrades macx are available ftp from aux support apple com info note macx also the name vax mac xmodem transfer utility also liken unix info qualix com software enables monochrome mac applications run sparc system running xport unix xport qualix com enables mac applications display based workstation turning the mac into client intercon has product called planet which enables mac applications display server subject where can get for the amiga the new amiga machines offer server and open look tools and libraries full svr implementation gfxbase inc provides for the amigados computer contains clients fonts etc and release color server optional programmer toolkit includes the header files libraries and sample programs info from gfxbase dale luck uunet cbmvax pyramid boing dale subject where can get fast server for workstation the server should among the fastest available for most machines sun sells direct xlib product which improves rendering for applications running the same machine the server the replacement xlib library accesses graphics hardware directly using sun direct graphics access dga technology international quest corporation has optimized server for sun under sunos unipalm have servers for sun and sparc platforms these are optimised use graphics hardware and will run with sunview information xtech unipalm xgraph xtool server implemented sunview which boasts impressive results sun and sparc systems several companies are making hardware accellerator boards dupont pixel systems for sun megatek cellerator board for the sun and sun based the the company claims performance improvements over the sample server subject where can get server for high end sun graphics board takahashi naoto electrotechnical laboratory ntakahas etl has modified the mit server support the sun and boards the files are export contrib xsun tar note that both files are necessary build xsun the jpl xsun multi screen server general purpose replacement for the mit server ddx sun layer provides for the screen split among several monitors and implements several other features above the mit implementation available export lcs mit edu the file contrib xsun multi screen tar kaleb keithley kaleb thyme jpl nasa gov the file was updated mar subject where can get terminal server for low end sun seth robertson seth ctr columbia edu has written xkernel the current version expected rsn sol ctr columbia edu pub xkernel gamma turns sun into pseudo terminal most the overhead the operating system side stepped fairly fast and needs little disk space similar approach run the regular server making etc init shell script which does the minimal setup and then invokes xsun like this example script from mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu bin exec dev console etc fsck dev case etc reboot echo fsck failed get help etc halt echo interrupted etc reboot echo unknown error reboot fsck get help etc halt esac bin tmp dev count dev null etc mount dev tmp etc ifconfig netmask broadcast etc mount apollo lib local lib etc route add default dev null set etc ifconfig exec xsun once multidisp mux query local lib xdm servers subject what terminal emulators other than xterm are available pcs has rewritten xterm from scratch using multi widget approach that can used applications version the contrib tape and export contrib emu tar for more information contact dude pcs com mxterm motif based xterm available from the paderborner ftp server ftp uni paderborn file unix more contrib mxterm tar the color terminal widget provides ansi terminal emulation compatible with the vtx series version export contrib ctw tar motif version ftp stna stna dgac pub term tar kterm based and tektronix terminal emulator that supports display chinese japanese and korean text mode also supported are ansi color sequences multi byte word selection limited compound text support and tab and newline preservation selections kterm also available from these anonymous ftp sites clr nmsu edu pub misc kterm tar export lcs mit edu contrib kterm tar kum kaist pub unix xstuffs kterm tar courtesy mark leisher mleisher nmsu edu kterm tar now export mterm mouse larry mcrcim mcgill edu terminal emulator which includes ansi and dec emulation modes mterm can had ftp larry mcrcim mcgill edu mterm src mterm ball wax cxterm chinese xterm which supports both and the called big encoding hanzi input conversion mechanism builtin cxterm most input methods are stored external files that are loaded run time users can redefine any existing input methods create their own ones the cxterm the rewritten cxterm version based xterm the contrib software thanks zhou ning zhou tele unit and steinar bang uunet idt unit steinarb xvt available export contrib xvt tar and xvt readme designed offer xterm functionality with lower swap space and may particular use systems driving many terminals contrib also ibm sells emulator for the part based motif century software sells terminal emulator for wyse and sco color console emulation are also available grafpoint tgraf provides emulation tektronix and graphics terminals available for most major platforms information inc free demo copies fax uunet grafpnt sales ixi deskterm package for integrating character based applications into environment includes number terminal emulation modules information pericom produces teem set several emulation packages for number tek dec westward and data general terminals the software runs sun sun apollo dec isc ibm aix information sco scoterm info sco com part its open desktop environment motif compliant sco ansi color console emulator subject where can get based editor word processor you can ftp version gnu emacs the extensible customizable self documenting real time display editor including support from prep mit edu pub gnu emacs tar informatik muenchen pub gnu emacs emacs tar epoch modified version gnu emacs with additional facilities useful environment current sources are uiuc edu ftp pub epoch files epoch the current version europe try unido informatik uni dortmund there are two subdirectories epoch contains the epoch source and gwm contains the source the programmable window manager gwm with which epoch works well you can get the epoch mailing list sending request epoch request uiuc edu lucid emacs version gnu emacs derived from early version emacs version currently requires windows run support greatly enhanced over gnu emacs version including support for multiple windows input and display all iso latin characters zmacs lispm style region highlighting customizable motif like menubar more powerful keymap support flexible text attributes support regional and screen local basis through resources and lisp and support for the selection mechanism lucid emacs free the latest version and available from labrea stanford edu the pub gnu lucid directory the andrew system the contrib tapes has been described one the best word processing packages available supports word processing with multi media embedded objects rasters tables spread sheets drawings style editor application builder embedded programming language release became available june fred hansen wjh andrew cmu edu you may able use the remote andrew demo service try this software try finger help atk itc cmu edu for help the interviews toolkit contains wysiwig editor called doc saves and loads files latex like format not quite latex the package can also import idraw postscript drawings simple editor axe wight newcastle available export and arjuna newcastle axe tar based around the xaw text widget ted simple motif based text editor wrapper around the motif text widget which offers search replace paragraph formatting and navigation features ted available from ftp eos ncsu edu pub bill tar here are also executables there point crowley unmvax unm edu charlie crowley tcl based and offers dyanimic configuration and programming the tcl macro language the editor available from unmvax unm edu pub point point tar asedit andrzej stochniol astoch export contrib asedit tar simple text editor built around the motif text widget version was released also elan computer group mountain view has announced the avalon publisher open look wysiwyg electronic publishing system framemaker and framewriter are available based binary products for several machines frame formerly indepthedit available from non standard logics requests nsl buzzwords international inc has editor called professional edit that runs under motif for various platforms info decwrite available from dec for some dec hardware and sunwrite available from sun islandwrite will soon available from island graphics info island com for some apollo platforms interleaf currently available from interleaf all sun and dec platforms others are under development the aster office integration tools from applix applix include multi font wysiwg document composer for several systems arbortext inc provides version its electronic publishing program called the publisher the publisher available sun and apollo workstations contact arbortext iris computing laboratories offers the editor info info spectro com bbn slate from bbn software products includes menu driven word processor with multiple fonts and style sheets supports multiple platforms slate offer bbn com the powerful sam editor rob pike split into host portion and front end graphics portion which now has implementation sam now available anonymous ftp from research att com dist sam bundle watch that space for updated versions there mailing list for sam users requests sam fans request hawkwind utcs toronto edu set extensions which augment the mouse activity with the keyboard available from uxc cso uiuc edu pub sam samx shar innovative solutions brian zimbelman brian bbx basis com publishes the user configurable motif based xamine editor qualix offers product information info qualix com unix typex motif based editor available for several systems information amcad research fax wordperfect offers based version wordperfect for several workstations information subject where can get based mailer xmh interface distributed with the release xmail based window interface berkeley style mail handlers styled primarily after the sunview mailtool application and builds most unix systems the current release available the mit contrib tape and from export and uunet info jeff markham markham cadence com mmh mail handler motif interface the mail handler available from ftp eos ncsu edu pub bill tar bundled with the ted editor which uses for composing messages motif required you don have look for dec and sparc executables the same place information and problems erik scott escott eos ncsu edu the andrew toolkit supports the andrew message system available from export and many other archives and from emsworth andrew cmu edu send email susan andrew cmu edu release became available june you may able use the remote andrew demo service try this software try finger help atk itc cmu edu for help xmailtool xaw based interface bsd style mail reader version was released information bob kierski bobo cray com cem motif based mailer using standard mailbox formats nelson ncsu edu pub cem information sam moore sam moore ncsu edu also alfalfa software offers poste unix based mailer that has motif and command based interfaces includes support for multimedia enclosures and supports both the internet and mail standards information info alfalfa com code software offers mail for most unix systems binaries support both tty and motif interfaces the mailer includes csh like scripting language for customizing and extending mail capabilities information info code com several vendors systems include based mailers dec offers dxmail sun offers based mailtool sco info sco com includes scomail its open desktop product several integrated office productivity tools include mailers the aster office integration tools from applix applix include mailer subject where can get based paint draw program xpic object oriented drawing program supports multiple font styles and sizes and variable line widths there are rotations zooms xpic quite suitable interactive front end pic though the xpic format produced can converted into postscript the latest version the contrib tape clients xpic xfig brian smith bvsmith lbl gov object oriented drawing program supporting compound objects the xfig format can converted postscript other formats recent versions are the contrib tape export contrib fixes version idraw supports numerous fonts and various line styles and arbitrary rotations supports zoom and scroll and color draws and fills the file format postscript dialect can import tiff files distributed part the interviews toolkit current release from interviews stanford edu version robert forsman thoth lightning cis ufl edu xscribble bit paint program for now ftp cis ufl edu pub thoth xpaint available from ftp lbl gov xpaint tar rewrite xpaint david koblas koblas netcom com was released xpaint tar xpaint bitmap pixmap editing tool new openwindows postscript based graphical editor named ice now available for anonymous ftp from internet host lamont ldgo columbia edu ice image composition environment imaging tool that allows raster images combined with wide variety postscript annotations wysiwyg fashion via imaging routines and news postscript rasterizing may require openwindows and sun tgif william cheng william oahu ucla edu available from most uucp sites and also from export and from ucla edu frequently updated version patch was released the pixmap program info colas inria for creating pixmaps the contrib tape resembles the bitmap client version now available although metacard not generally classified paint program full bit color image editor built into the program which can used for light image editing and for producing color icons info metacard com metacard available via anonymous ftp from ftp metacard com csn org pixt michael flanery produces xpm output also dxpaint bitmap oriented drawing program most like macpaint good for use artists but commonly held bad for drawing figures drafting dxpaint part dec ultrix release framemaker has some draw capabilities bbn slate from bbn software products includes full featured draw and paint program with object grouping and multiple patterns multiple platforms slate offer bbn com dux dah islandgraphics offers islanddraw islandpaint islandpresent info corel draw ported prior data sciences arts letters composer ficor autograph openwindows includes the olpixmap editor sco odt includes the scopaint editor vue includes the vueicon editor several integrated office productivity tools include draw paint capabilities the aster office integration tools from applix applix include draw paint capabilities thanks part stephen byers cobcs cummins com and daniel smith dsmith ann arbor applicon slb com david lewis faq craft uunet net just the faqs joe friday david lewis temporarily but not speaking for visual inc day dbl visual com evening david craft uunet net
comp.windows.x	honors degrees they mean anything tkld cogsci kevin davidson writes opinion programming degree still worth having yes but degree not programming degree does anybody know computing course where programming taught computer science branch maths the course did was also done software engineering course much more practical and likely the sort thing employer really wants rather than what they think they want but also did not teach programming the ability program was entry requirement try the computing science course the real newcastle university conversion course but least they teach real programming the space months were taught pascal simula prolog miranda also some basic low level stuff was covered well they also did concurrent programming and operating systems some software engineering plus quite few optional units including database theory and some stuff about comms the pascal replaced think next year learn this and windows programming well anyway via good selection project over the final three months depending your tastes the selection skills learn can quite wide reaching the one critiscism would level the course which would have thought invaluable the lack option the project period industry this would probably need slightly longer project period say six months but would enhance the prestige and usefulness already excellent and thorough course yes know this sounds like plug for the course why not mackem ian
comp.windows.x	cute clients try this include stdio include xlib include xutil display dpy int screen xcolor xclrs xclrp xid cmap int cells red green blue got main dpy xopendisplay null screen defaultscreen dpy cells displaycells dpy screen cmap xcreatecolormap dpy rootwindow dpy screen defaultvisual dpy screen xclrs xcolor malloc cells sizeof xclrs xclrp xclrs for cells xclrp pixel xclrp flags xclrp xquerycolors dpy defaultcolormap dpy screen xclrs cells xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap got while got xclrp xclrs got for cells xclrp red xclrp red got xclrp green xclrp green got xclrp blue xclrp blue got xclrp xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap got while got xclrp xclrs got for cells xclrp red xclrp red got xclrp green xclrp green got xclrp blue xclrp blue got xclrp xstorecolors dpy cmap xclrs cells xinstallcolormap dpy cmap will work any pseudocolor xserver hopefully brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	trouble compiling sunos was having the same problems compiling ipc sunos you compile with make world will not stop the errors was stated another post the clients with the errors still run correctly victor martinez vic fajita saic com
comp.windows.x	fwd progressives happy hour forwarding begins here date wed apr edt from women center women andrew cmu edu dist afs andrew cmu edu usr women dlists happyhour announce andrew cmu edu subject progressives happy hour enjoy good food and interesting company the progressives happy hour thursday april starting the women center located next the laundromat the margaret morrison plaza kosher for passover food will served all are welcome good things drink will there but paper cups won please progressive and bring cup mug with you sponsored the student government president and funded the student activites fee end forwarding
comp.windows.x	problems with open windows after having openwindows version for sunos xwindows running continuously machine for days the following message appears when trying open new window run any program that needs open windows xview error cannot open connection window server server package would greatly appreciate any suggestions solve this problem yali amit department statistics university chicago chicago
comp.windows.x	problems with openwindows after having openwindows version for sunos xwindows running continuously machine for days the following message appears when trying open new window run any program that needs open windows xview error cannot open connection window server server package would greatly appreciate any suggestions solve this problem yali amit department statistics university chicago chicago
comp.windows.x	root with vue was xloadimage onroot apr pdt jan camhpp mdcbbs com jan vandenbrande said jan nntp posting host jan related note how can use display colored gifs jan root display with vue jan all can with vue display xbm through their jan backdrop style manager jan does not seem able override whatever vue jan puts there suspect this because vue creates window probably overrideredirect that the size larger than the root window because the window manager does not know about this you cannot move resize etc the mean time busy changing your root window whatever you have requested but you never get see because vue window overlaid top the root window contact support and see whether vue can support coloured bitmap format such xpm they cant then they probably create all their coloured backdrops inside the code guy singh ixi internet guy vision park uucp guy ixi uucp cambridge bang uunet ixi guy tel
comp.windows.x	how can rotate text programming xview sunos openwindows would like rotate some text and display did read the faq comp windows but not sure how translate xview would appreciate someone can give tips how thanx mahendra not frequent news group reader would appreciate answers replies would mailed will post follow mahendra chheda mmc rit edu mmc ritvax isc rit edu office residence dept computer science kimball drive rochester institute tech rochester tel tel
comp.windows.x	trouble compiling sunos article apr fwi uva casper fwi uva casper dik writes epstein trwacs trw com jeremy epstein writes dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes there bug sunos which alluded the faq although there talking about being affected you need force libxmu linked statically rather than dynamically which works around the linker error the simplest thing edit each the makefiles where there failure and change the line which reads xmulib xmusrc lxmu xmulib xmusrc bstatic lxmu bdynamic this only relevant for openwindows shipped with sunos not relevant for mit mit should compile without problems casper don know how many hours you spent this but the sun user group makes available rom its members the disk has both sources and binaries and sells for tagged table contents and orderform below anyone interested alex newman alex newman voice life may stressful troll sug org fax but least not boring sun user group beacon brookline sug and gnu cdrom priced sug members including caddy sug emphasis has always been supplying the greatest possible service and value added our members last year the sug disk contained plug and play additional essential binaries almost sun patches fully indexed archives sun related net postings priced only our aim this year has been reduce the price for disks which can produced inexpensively but continue supply much value added possible accomplish this will putting out two disk set the first containing what ready and needed now the second available later containing more sparc binaries and other useful material not found previous disks the sug disk which was assembled robert bruce contains lot essential source code and decided would great service make available right away our members and this pricing makes this good opportunity become member for per disk including one those hard find caddies you are not sug member you can become one for additional you live within the outside the sug cdrom iso disk which means can used macintosh and other workstations well and contains total material including sources and core binaries for sparc several weeks after the initial distribution thus four fixes and the the mit contrib distribution are included material binaries for xsun xsunmono appres atobm auto box bdftopcf beach ball bitmap bmtoa constype editres fsinfo fslsfonts fstobdf ico imake kbd mode listres lndir makedepend maze mkdirhier mkfontdir oclock plbpex puzzle resize showfont showrgb startx twm viewres perf perfcomp xauth xbiff xcalc xclipboard xclock xcmsdb xcmstest xconsole xcutsel xditview xdm xdpr xdpyinfo xedit xev xeyes xfd xfontsel xgas xgc xhost xinit xkill xload xlogo xlsatoms xlsclients xlsfonts xmag xman xmh xmkmf xmodmap xon xpr xprop xrdb xrefresh xset xsetroot xstdcmap xterm xwd xwininfo xwud copies contributed sources from export lcs mit edu contrib which were then uncompressed untarred into source directories these are sources only and some them were after the date production this disk included the mit contrib and contrib distributions gnu sources which were uncompressed untarred into source directories sparc binaries and needed libraries for these gnu programs basename bash bison cat plus chgrp chmod chown cmp comm compress cpio cpp ctags cut cvs date diff diff dir dirname egrep elvis emacs env etags expand expr fgrep find find perl flex fold dep filt gawk gcc gdb ginstall gnuchess gnuchessn gnuchessr gnugo gnuplot gnuplot gprof grep head ident indent ispell less locate logname make merge mkdir mkfifo mkmodules mknod nice oleo paste pathchk perl printenv printf ranlib rcs rcsdiff rcsinfo rcsmerge rcstest ref refont rlog rmdir rmt screen sed size sleep split strip stty sum tac tail taintperl tar tee test time touch tput tty uname unexpand uniq vdir virec whoami xargs xchess yes zmore archive comp source postings volume through volume parts are supplied just posted you get put together the pieces compile install etc cost sug members non members additional within the elsewhere shipping handling inside the usa elsewhere mail sun user group inc suite beacon street brookline usa voice fax the sun user group also accepts visa and mastercard via telephone electronically cut here and return completed form the sugcd order form the price the shipping and handling add usa intl you are not member the sun user group add usa international the above sums for membership you must sug member purchase the rom enclose check for sug member the usa sug member outside the usa includes membership inside the usa includes international membership name signature company name sug membership known electronic mail address telephone number check enclosed mastercard visa credit card exp date card holder signature ship bill hereby authorize the sun user group renew membership and charge credit card automatically annual basis not wish name included non sun user group mailings not wish name published the sun user group member directory wish added the sun user group electronic mailing list members only outside the only individuals outside the usa may find using their credit cards easier than purchasing checks this eliminates bank charges sun user group beacon street suite brookline voice fax email office sug org
comp.windows.x	problem with tek xterminal have recently purchased tektronix xterminal and having problem with have graphics widget that wrote display waveforms and doesn work the xterminal the buttons etc all show and seems take the right amount time draw but nothing visible the graphics window have clue where start looking the program works fine all our suns and color and could anyone suggest line attack for this problem tekxpress color xterminal running host sun ipx running sunos and ned danieley ndd sunbar duke edu basic arrhythmia laboratory box duke university medical center durham
comp.windows.x	remapping return key dialog new programming please bear with trying have dialog box that returns value upon the user entering new value and hitting the return key don want have done button the piece code below will work exclude the xtnvalue argument but will not work can someone shed some light this suggest better way ultimately will have several areas active the same time allow user modify parameters the program thanks for your help karen rogers dupont rogerskm pluto dupont com code starts here void doit printf entered the doit function exit main argc argv int argc char argv widget toplevel widget outer xtappcontext app con widget samples arg args static xtactionsrec key actions doit doit toplevel xtvaappinitialize app con test null argc argv null null outer xtcreatemanagedwidget paned panedwidgetclass toplevel null zero xtappaddactions app con key actions xtnumber key actions xtsetarg args xtnlabel enter value xtsetarg args xtnvalue samples xtcreatemanagedwidget samples dialogwidgetclass outer args xtoverridetranslations samples xtparsetranslationtable key return doit xtrealizewidget toplevel xtappmainloop app con
comp.windows.x	joining the consortium does anyone have any information joining the consortium what are the costs what are the benefits who should contact thanks
comp.windows.x	honors degrees they mean anything justin kibell jck catt citri edu wrote what has this got with comp windows agree that this side track but funny that skip many other articles threads but couldn resist reading this one beliefs opinions and expressions are strictly own and not represent reflect any official unofficial policies attitudes any other person organization but have heard that ford motor company has had recruiting bias toward engineers and away from computer science graduates the reasoning supposedly better meet long range personnel requirements this evidenced the large number people who are employed via contracts and are not brought board except special circumstances this generalization which obviously doesn always hold true but there are statistics furthermore most software engineering ford gets done electrical engineers know univerities that have merged the computer science department and the electrical engineering that you can get computer degree which qualifies you for much more than programming but since beliefs and opinions are merely figments distorted imagination suppose should keep myself
comp.windows.x	large color monitors does anyone have any information advice large color monitors use with system running server software maining looking for quality information and price but all information welcomed thanks david all ball bearings fletch
comp.windows.x	converting contents window color postscript jeff haferman haferman icaen uiowa edu wrote can somebody point source code for dumping the contents window into color postscript file have written app which brings window and want the click the mouse dump the window into postscript file thanks jeff haferman internet haferman icaen uiowa edu department mechanical engineering dod bmwmoa ama the university iowa iowa city use xwd and xwd from within program use xwd xxxxx where xxxxx the window obtained from xtwindow widget raju gurung building dept electrical eng university manchester oxford manchester
comp.windows.x	xremote into remember reading hallucinating that ncd xremote functionality had been given ncd mit for inclusion this true set mode cheap can just wait for get compressed serial line server support thanks terry lemons digital equipment corporation
comp.windows.x	any recent information frescoe does anyone know any recent information the frescoe work being done the consortium seen the short description that was published the resource but looking for something with bit more depth
comp.windows.x	pointer xlib trying implement pointer feature xlib have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously all other displays want implement pointer feature would like get the pointer come all windows once choose pointer the menu and every one should able see can you give some hints how should proceed new xlib replies will greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri odu edu
comp.windows.x	xterm and default text cursor color what want able set the cursor color the same the forground color that set for that xterm from the man page color this option specifies the color use for text cur sor the default use the same foreground color that used for text however this doesnt seem the case appears default black whatever xterm cursorcolor set feel free point the relevant whatever cheers
comp.windows.x	string widget resource converter can anybody tell how use the xmu function xmucvtstringtowidget want specify widget name resource file that can connect two widgets together xmform myproggy mylistsw topwidget maintextsw however when run the program get the message warning type converter registered for string window conversion just like the manual sez have managed find this bit code which seems the correct way about this static xtconvertargrec parentcvtargs xtwidgetbaseoffset xtpointer xtoffsetof corerec core parent sizeof corewidget xtsettypeconverter xtrstring xtrwidget xmucvtstringtowidget parentcvtargs xtnumber parentcvtargs xtcacheall null however haven got clue where put the example code have seems suggest can only this creating own widget but elsewhere says that can add widget class intialize function how what one those anybody has any code this please let know the trick sure this faq thanks advance rik what are the header files corep and intrinsicsp should use these core and intrinsics know rtfm richard turnbull dept computer science mail university liverpool rik compsci liverpool liverpool england phone
comp.windows.x	how avoid xopendisplay hang don know how avoid the xopendisplay hang but perhaps you could use something else such zephyr perhaps rob
comp.windows.x	problem with mit shm trying write image display program that uses the mit shared memory extension the shared memory segment gets allocated and attached the process with problem but the program crashes the first call xshmputimage with the following message error failed request badshmseg invalid shared segment parameter major opcode failed request mit shm minor opcode failed request shmputimage segment failed request serial number failed request current serial number output stream like said did error checking all the calls shmget and shmat that are necessary create the shared memory segment well checking xshmattach there are problems anybody has had the same problem has used mit shm without having the same problem please let know the way running openwindows sun sparc thanks advance john
comp.windows.x	how avoid xopendisplay hang article skates gsfc nasa gov andy ice stx com writes writing xwall simple version wall and want put message each default list displays the problem that xopendisplay hangs one the displays currently controlled xdm login screen xdm does xgrabserver when running secure mode some screen locks there really simple way tell this the case you can take xdm out secure mode probably not too cool you can wrap your call xopendisplay some code which solicts future sigalrm and longjmps past the xopendisplay from the signal handler example this can seen the xdm sources note that longjmping out xopendisplay probably causes memory leak any program functioning this way probably needs exit regularly
comp.windows.x	gui study article apr kocrsv delcoelect com xjfa kocrsv delcoelect com james allman iii writes doing study what the following type users would like have unix manager basically looking for the unix commands and features motif window interface which will help the different type users make use unix personally can stand motif also can stand gui command line interfaces for things like access the commands know command line and love think you find that experience sic users command line der mouse year and half ago felt the same way the started using gooyies give the command line when something out the ordinary needs done and the gooy when doing normal repative work note that most operations are repetative hackers love cls because what like about gui the ability view and manipulate group objects files text directories etc and and manipulate them some way such delete copy paste rename the ability have several applications screens visible and accessable the same time being able standard set functions easily and quickly unfamiliar operating system familiar with the command lines several operating systems but occasionally will have some work system that almost never use has gui can usually accomplish what want fairly easily the command line the other hand often long and painful experience what hate about gui having switch between the mouse and the keyboard guess have strong one handed preference like use computer with one hand and use the other for holding something like piece paper mug tea have configured favorite editor that most the editing functions can done with one hand such navigating cutting pasting searching opening and saving files etc the main thing need use both hands for entering text guess need get one those mice with like buttons something and then will have the best both worlds brent
comp.windows.x	motif and interviews the process making the decision whether should write wrappers for motif myself use motif interviews though have downloaded the tar files fail see any documentation have two questions you have used these similar toolkits what has been your experience where find reference books documentation for them any and all input will greatly appreciated unmesh
comp.windows.x	lost tekhvc color space xtici worked for system using clientside only dec ultrix may you have serious floatingpoint compilation problem brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	books other than can anyone recomend good book article inter client communications besides looked everywhere can and seems everyone tells you how but nobody shows you how reilly has examples iccm has examples asente swick give examples fact most the books looked they discuss icc all simply give condensed version the iccm and then refer you the iccm did find one example how use atoms and properties young book and five hours after bought young book had applications talking each other not sure however thats the best way like stay independent unix pipes and sockets probably aren the way but within one can also use messages the clipboard and perhaps window groups need text that discusses the various methods discusses which method best for which purpose and gives examples without examples all just words thanks advance ross
comp.windows.x	how disable reverse video xterm man well not sure this the right newsgroup ask but let try anyway running xterm and like all unix users run man something recently switched solaris and their man pages are littered with directives that are somehow translated into reverse video when displayed man under xterm the resulting output admittedly personal taste very annoying look back when was using sunos remember their man pages have some keywords displayed with underlining question how change the xterm behaviour under directives for nroff man pages perhaps underlining least disabling directives are fine like them and course don want and edit the man pages inputs somehow xterm allows one specify both normal font and bold font but not italic font any pointers suggestions are greatly appreciated thanks john running xterm won work tried
comp.windows.x	teleuse uim and hubec ctp com hubert chou writes does anyone have any good ideas how integrate code elegantly with teleuse uim interface architect generated code source would great but any suggestions are welcome alsys has produced paper outlining how use with teleuse you can get copy from your local sales rep call mentioned very straight forward using the dialog language similar visual basic tom erickson alsys tne world std com south bedford street burlington
comp.windows.x	gui toolkit for the sun sparc article cuug winsorr sun robin winsor writes you are right going motif rather than openlook sun has just recently seen the light and dumped their commitment openlook the announcement they stated they have future plans for devguide this incorrect sun has made such claim regarding devguide and manager the devguide engineering group can state with authority that work devguide continuing apace had quite strong show interest from the devguide user community last week solaris developer conference devguide being advocated not only valuable future builder tool but important bit transition technology that will help sustain current customers and facilitate their migration the cose desktop environment you have specific questions about devguide availability etc you can contact tali aben our devguide product marketing person david bryant devguide manager sunsoft
comp.windows.x	for for those you who couldn find appeal availible the following sitex ascwide ascii the pub msdos xappeal dir wuarchive wustl edu the mirrors garbo uwasa demo directory the three files are xap exe aip xap fon zip and drivers zip josh joshua weage snail spring baroda mail freenet cwru edu yfn ysu edu fidonet joshua weage all ideas are own and one elses
comp.windows.x	widgets gadgets been using the xmgraph widget that been floating around and noticed the performance significantly better using gadgets perhaps even faster had heard old programming course that gadgets were longer any benefit performance and that just well use widgets everywhere interesting like know why but try again single ethernet with terminals and think you find much slower adrian nye reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	help sunview olwm xview just compiled the distribution for sun sunos also compiled the public domain xview with olwm distribution have some old party application binaries that are sunview programs how get them work under xview and olwm tried using the openwindows version svenv program but did not work not have news access that why mailing this directly also there email alias where questions can get comp windows comp windows open look please respond fwr fin mil thanks shash shash chatterjee email fwr fin mil software phone lockheed fort worth company fax box worth
comp.windows.x	need source for splines article ppvhtinn fmsrl srl ford com glang slee srl ford com gordon lang writes the xlib programming manual rielly associates pointed out that routines for drawing splines not included xlib but extensions are publicly available need spline routines which work within the environment have previously posted similar request and got two responses both directing the interviews package interviews stanford edu got but too much looks like too much work try identify extract and modify relevant components looking for code that not encumbered complex and extensive framework which beyond our needs just need the spline extensions the xlib look xfig has two types spline algorithms and relatively simple xfig available from export lcs mit edu contrib fixes xfig patches xfig tar brian smith bvsmith lbl gov lawrence berkeley laboratory don speak for lbl they don pay enough for that
comp.windows.x	honors degrees they mean anything hear george bush remember him will receive honors degree from some kuwaiti university for contributing certain kuwaiti interests not too long ago you think would add much his resume
comp.windows.x	converting contents window color postscript article apr jwminhh hanse wieck jwminhh hanse jan wieck writes mbheprg problem with inews gateway file raju gurung writes jeff haferman haferman icaen uiowa edu wrote can somebody point source code for dumping the contents window into color postscript file have written app which brings window and want the click the mouse dump the window into postscript file use xwd and xwd from within program use xwd xxxxx where xxxxx the window obtained from xtwindow widget asked for sources the portable bitmap tools from jef poskanzer jef well include filters that and much more btw the tools come sources the sillyness most vendors lets you stuck with binaries anyway have look onto xgrab xgrabsc does the imho best job for this including compression brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	comp windows getting more performance out faq archive name faq speedups last modified how maximize the performance monthly posting compiled art mulder art ualberta more ram faster cpu more disk space faster ethernet these are the standard responses you hear when you ask how improve the performance your workstation well more hardware isn always option and wonder more hardware always even necessity this faq list collection suggestions and ideas from different people the net how you can the best possible performance from windows your workstation without purchasing more hardware performance highly subjective issue the individual user must balance speed versus features order come personal decision therefore this document can expected contain many subjective opinions and amongst the objective facts this document specifically concerned with there are course many other factors that can affect the performance workstation however they are outside the scope this document people seriously interested the whole area system performance might want look the reilly nutshell handbook system performance tuning mike loukides about the way through reading and looks like well written comprehensive treatment system performance unaware any other similar books table contents introduction administrivia what about the other faq window managers the server which server locking the server into ram starting your server fonts about the resources file define your display properly clients better clock for better terminal emulator for tuning your client miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures quicker mouse programming thoughts say what other sources information author notes changed since last issue new since last issue introduction administrivia this document posted each month around the the usenet news groups comp windows news answers and comp answers you are reading copy this faq which more than few months old see the last modified date above you should probably locate the latest edition since the information may outdated you not know how get those newsgroups and your site does not receive them and this article has already expired you can retrieve this faq from archive site there exist several usenet faq archive sites find out more about them and how access them please see the introduction the news answers newsgroup posting news answers the main faq archive rtfm mit edu this document can found there pub usenet news answers faq speedups you not have access anonymous ftp you can retrieve sending mail message mail server pit manager mit edu with the command send usenet news answers faq speedups the message body what about the other faq david lewis faq craft uunet net maintains the informative and well written comp windows frequently asked questions document its focus general information while this faq concentrates performance the comp windows faq does address the issue speed but only with regards the server the gist that topic seems use faster than please see the faq for complete details window managers there are lot window managers out there with lots different features and abilities the choice which use necessity balancing act between performance and useful features this point most respondents have agreed upon twm the best candidate for speedy window manager couple generic tricks you can try soup your window manger turning off unnecessary things like zooming and opaque move also you lay out your windows tiled manner you reduce the amount cpu power spent raising and lowering overlapping windows joe english joe trystero art com found that good font for tiling aka misc fixed medium normal iso the biggest font know that can use sun screen and still get two column terminal windows side side the display with overlap other font suggestions will accepted the server which server make sure that your server proper match for your hardware you have monochrome monitor use monochrome server monochrome sun haven noticed much difference between the xsun colour server and xsunmono however was pointed out that xsunmono about smaller and therefore should contribute less paging thanks jonny farringdon farringdon psychol ucl michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson how your server was compiled can also make difference jeff law law schirf utah edu advises that sun system should compiled with gcc version with the unbundled sun compiler you can expect get very large speedups the server not using the bundled sunos compiler assume that similar results would occur you used one the other high quality commercial compilers the market locking the server into ram has anyone tried hacking the server that locked into ram and does not get paged via call plock does this help performance all had one inquiry this topic and few pointers the plock function call but hard evidence from someone who tried not position give try thanks eric claeys ecc eperm att com danny backx sunbim juan martin juando cnm starting your server joe english joe trystero art com you start lot clients your xsession whatever sleep for second two after launching each one after changed xclients script this logging actually took less time have heavily loaded system without much core though this sounds crazy but have confirmed that works warner losh imp solbourne com provided with good explanation why this works which have summarized here when you start server takes huge amount time start accepting connections lot initialization done the server when starts this process touches large number pages any other process running the same time would fight the server for use the cpu and more importantly memory you put sleep there you give the server chance get itself sorted out before the clients start similarly there also lot initialization whenever client program starts toolkits registering widgets resources being fetched programs initializing state and databases and forth all this activity typically memory intensive once this initialization done the process has reached steady state the memory usage typically settles down using only few pages using sleeps stagger the launching your clients your xinitrc you avoid them fighting each other for your workstation limited resources this most definitely your mileage may vary situation there are many variables considered available ram local swap space load average number users your system which clients you are starting etc currently xinitrc have situation like sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm experimented with sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm even tried sleep exec start clients script and then start clients script had sleep exec xclock sleep exec xbiff sleep exec xterm sleep exec xterm the idea with this last one was make sure that xinit had completely finished processing xinitrc and had settled down into steady state before the sleep expired and all clients were launched all these yielded fairly comparable results and just stuck with current setup for its simplicity you will probably have experiment bit find setup which suits you fonts loading fonts takes time and ram you minimize the number fonts your applications use you get speed increases load time one simple strategy choose small number fonts one small one large one roman whatever suits you and configure all your clients least all your heavily used clients use only those few fonts client programs should start quicker their font already loaded into the server this will also conserve server resources since fewer fonts will loaded the server farrell mckay fbm ptcburp ptcbu joe english joe trystero art com main xterm font also have twm set use all menus and icons etc twm default font since don normally use eliminated one font from server oliver jones roadrunner pictel com keep fonts local the workstation rather than loading them over nfs you will make extensive use scalable fonts use font server about the resources file keep your xresources xdefaults file small saves ram and saves server startup time joe english joe trystero art com one suggestion your xdefaults xresources file try putting only the minimum number resources that you want have available all your applications for example reversevideo true then separate your resources into individual client specific resource files for example home lib app defaults your login file set the environment variable xuserfilesearchpath setenv xuserfilesearchpath home lib app defaults the comp windows frequently asked questions faq contains excellent explanation how these environment variables work when xterm launches loads its resources from app defaults xterm xdvi finds them app defaults xdvi and and forth note that not all clients follow the same xxxxx resource file naming pattern you can check your system app defaults directory often usr lib app defaults find the proper name and then name your personal resource files with the same name this all documented the specification thanks kevin samborn samborn mtkgc com michael urban urban cobra jpl nasa gov and mike long mikel cornell edu kevin willing mail his setup files inquirers this method organizing your personal resources has the following benefits easier maintain more usable fewer resources are stored the server the resource manager property side benefit your server may start fractionally quicker since doesn have load all your resources applications only process their own resources never have sort through all your resources find the ones that affect them also has drawbacks the application that you are interested has load additional file every time starts this doesn seem make that much performance difference and you might consider this huge boon usability you are modifying application resource database you just need run the application without having xrdb again xrdb will default run your xdefaults file through cpp when your resources are split out into multiple resource files and then loaded the individual client programs they will not watch out for this had style comments xdefaults file which cpp stripped out when switched this method distributed resource files spent several frustrating days trying figure out why clients were not finding their resources did not provide any error message when encountered the style comments the resource files simply silently aborted processing the resource file the loss preprocessing which can very handy ifdef color enough cause some people dismiss this method resource management you may also run into some clients which break the rules for example neither emacs nor xvt will find their resources they are anywhere other than xdefaults when starting client machine that does not share files with the machine where your resources are stored your client will not find its resources loading all your resources into the server will guarantee that all your clients will always find their resources casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov possible compromise suggestion that have and planning trying put resources for all heavily used clients xterm into xdefaults file and use the separate resources files method for clients that seldom use define your display properly client programs are often executed the same machine the server that situation rather than setting your display environment variable hostname where hostname the name your workstation you should set your display variable unix doing this you access optimized routines that know that the server the same machine and use shared memory method transferring requests thanks patrick horgan pjh ras amdahl com see the display names section the man page for further explanation how properly set your display name don think stock mit but least data general and have libraries that are smart enough use local communication even when the display isn set specially rob sartin opensi sartin uunet net jody goldberg jody algorithmics com sent xlib patch change stock use local communication even display not properly set don want get the business distributing trying juggle non mit patches and have elected not include here hopefully mit will apply this minor lines patch themselves the meantime you want try yourself email jody clients you only have few megabytes ram then you should think carefully about the number programs you are running think also about the kind programs you are running for example there smaller clock program than xclock unfortunately haven really noticed that programs advertise how large they are the onus the research and spread the word suggestions better alternatives the some the standard clients xclock xterm xbiff are welcome received some contradictory advice from people the subject client programs some advocate the use programs that are strictly xlib based since xaw and other toolkits are rather large others warn that other applications which you are using may have already loaded one more these shared libraries this case using non for example client program may actually increase the amount ram consumed the upshot all this seems don mix toolkits that try and use just athena clients just xview clients just motif clients etc you use more than one then you dragging more than one toolkit library know your environment and think carefully about which client programs would work best together that environment thanks rob sartin opensi sartin uunet net duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla sinclair gla dcs better clock for xcuckoo suggested duncan sinclair sinclair dcs gla available export lcs mit edu xcuckoo displays clock the title bar another program saves screen real estate mclock suggested der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu mclock shar non based extensively configurable can made look very much like mit oclock mostly like xclock purely changing resources course the ultimate clock one that consumes resources and takes screen real estate the one that hangs your wall better terminal emulator for from the readme file distributed with xterm abandon all hope who enter here this undoubtedly the most ugly program the distribution ugly maybe but site still the most used suspect that xterm one the most used clients many not most sites laziness isn there better terminal emulator available see below you must use xterm you can try reducing the number savelines reduce memory usage oliver jones roadrunner pictel com jonny farringdon farringdon psychol ucl xvt suggested richard hesketh rlh ukc available export lcs mit edu contrib xvt tar you don need all the esoteric features xterm then get hold xvt was written here just save swap space xterm rather hog this was written partial clone xterm you don have rename your resources xvt pretends xterm current version you cannot bind keys you can xterm heard that there are versions xvt with this feature but not found any yet update march recently had few email conversations with brian warkentin brian warkentine eng sun com regarding xvt questions whether xvt really all faster than xterm for instance xvt may initialize slightly faster but compare scrolling speed try this quickie benchmark bin time etc termcap and see which program can scroll faster also while xterm may slightly larger ram requirements don have any hard numbers here does anyone else shared libraries and shared text segments mean that xterm paging requirements are not that major experiment ripped out all the tek stuff from xterm but made little difference since you never use never gets brought into memory here stand with some conflicting reports the validity xvt over xterm summary caveat emptor your mileage may vary you can provide some hard data like see specifically how much ram each occupies how much swap each needs relative speed each mterm suggested der mouse mouse lightning mcrcim mcgill edu available larry mcrcim mcgill edu mterm src mterm ball wax also have own terminal emulator its major lack scrollback but some people like anyway tuning your client suggestions how you can tune your client programs work faster from scott barman scott asd com comes suggestion regarding motif text field widgets noticed that during data entry into motif text field widgets was getting slight lag response some keystrokes particularly the initial one the field examining the what was going with xscope found seems that when the resource xmnblinkrate non zero and the focus text field widget even just text widget the beam cursor will blink every time the cursor appears disappears those widgets the widget code making request the server copyarea the user can stop this setting the resource xmnblinkrate not noticeable mhz sparc but does make little difference slower system this specific suggestion can probably applied general lots areas consider your heavily used clients are there any minor embellishments that can turned off and thereby save server requests miscellaneous suggestions pretty pictures don use large bitmaps gif etc root window backgrounds the more complicated your root window bitmap the slower the server redrawing your screen when you reposition windows redraw etc these take ram and cpu power work sun sparc and conscious performance issues can comprehend when see people with sun running xphoon their root window let someone else figure out how much ram would occupied having full screen root image colour workstation you anything like you need all the screen real estate that you can get for clients and rarely see the root window anyway thanks qiang alex zhao azhao arizona edu for reminding this one quicker mouse using xset you can adjust how fast your pointer moves the screen when you move your mouse use xset xinitrc file which lets send pointer across the screen with just flick the wrist see the xset man page for further ideas and information hint sometimes you may want slow down your mouse tracking for fine work cover options have placed number different mouse setting commands into menu window manager for twm menu mouse settings mouse settings title very fast xset normal fast xset system default accelerated xset default glacial xset programming thoughts joe english joe trystero art com speed applications that you developing there are tons things you can some that stick out for motif programs don set xmfontlist resources for individual buttons labels lists use the defaultfontlist labelfontlist whatever resource the highest level manager widget again stick few fonts possible better yet don use motif all absolute pig don create and destroy widgets the fly try reuse them this will avoid many problems with buggy toolkits too use line width gcs some servers this makes huge difference compress and collapse multiple expose events this can make the difference between fast application and completely unusable one francois staes frans kiwi uia just small remark once heard that using better malloc function would greatly increase performance based applications since they use malloc heavily they suggested trying out the gnuy malloc but didn find the time yet did some tests small programs just doing malloc and free and the differences were indeed very noticeable somewhat times faster any confirmation this from anyone andre beck andre beck irs inf dresden unnecessary noexpose events most people use xcopyarea xcopyplane fastest blit routines but they forget reset graphics exposures the used for the blits this will cause noexpose event every blit that most cases only puts load onto the connection and forces the client run through event loop again and again thousands xchangegc requests this gfx context switching also seen most handcoded apps where only one few gcs are created and then heavily changed again and again uses definitely better mechanism caching and sharing lot gcs with all needed parameters this will remove the load subsequent xchangegc requests from the connection moving toward the client startup phase say what some contributors proposed ideas that seem right off the wall first david lewis day dbl osf org night david craft uunet net how about this swap displays with someone else run all your programs the other machine and display locally the other user runs off your machine onto the other display goal reduce context switches the same operation between client and server not situation where can easily try this but have received the following confirmation michael salmon michael salmon eos ericsson regularly run programs other machines and notice big difference try run machine where will reduce net usage and usually with nice reduce the impact intrusion this helps lot poor little with only was essential when only had casey leedom casey gauss llnl gov the server and the client are competing for the same cpu your server when you run the same machine not really major problem except that the client and the server are absolute synchronicity and are context thrashing timothy panton thp westhawk uucp firstly relies the fact that most cpu are mostly idle cpu usage bursty the chances you and your teammate doing something cpu intensive the same time small they are not then you get twice the cpu memory available for your action the second factor that context switches are expensive using cpu halves them you pay price due the overhead going over the network but this offset most cases the improved buffering network typically for pipe allowing even fewer context switches other sources information volume reilly window system series window system administrator guide book all administrator should read adrian nye adrian ora com lot more tips performance are the paper improving application performance chris peterson and sharon chang issue the resource earlier version this paper appeared the xhibition conference proceedings this paper absolutely essential reading for programmers author notes this list currently maintained art mulder art ualberta suggestions corrections submission for inclusion this list are gladly accepted layout suggestions and comments spelling mistak too are also welcome currently have listed all contributors the various comments and suggestions you not want credited please tell speedup faq copyright arthur mulder you may copy this document whole part long you don try make money off pretend that you wrote art mulder art ualberta not conformed this world department computing science but transformed the renewal university alberta edmonton canada your mind romans
comp.windows.x	app defaults files hello when starting you recieve error message saying cannot load app defaults file check your xapplresdir environment variable and then put the file builderxcessory this the app defaults file for the directory specified the xuserfilesearchpath environment variable you don have xuserfilesearchpath environment variable then set xuserfilesearchpath the directory where the builderxcessory file you can this using the setenv command under csh note that the name ends you will have set xuserfilesearchpath get the app defaults load correctly make sure the the app defaults file can read all the users make sure that copy link the app defaults file exists usr lib app defaults usr openwin lib app defaults depending how your system set once you have taken care this set the systemdirectory resource the directory which you have installed for example let say installed then system directory resource should set like this systemdirectory builderxcessory thanks ics tech support
comp.windows.x	xcopyplane question trying use xcopyplane copy single plane from depth pixmap depth pixmap everytime try this see absolutely nothing displayed know there data the depth pixmap becuase have checked doing xcopyarea the screen have been successful getting xcopyplane work use two pixmaps depth there problem with what trying could someone please scan code segment and let know where going wrong have created xmdrawingarea widget called canvas xtwindow canvas display xtdisplay canvas screen defaultscreen display pixmap xcreatepixmap display rootwindow display screen width height defaultdepth display screen pixmap xcreatepixmap display rootwindow display screen width height xcreategc display null xcreategc display pixmap null code read xwd image into pixmap omitted have you set the foreground and background colors something other than and the whitepixel and blackpixel macros your server may not return values suitable for depth drawables copy one plane into the depth pixmap xcopyplane display pixmap pixmap width height are you sure that the fifth plane the data isn all the same you could have different pixel values the image but the fifth plane might all the same value using the depth pixmap the clipmask copy the screen values foreground color values clip origin values clip origin values clip mask pixmap mask gcforeground gcclipmask xchangegc display mask values xfillrectangle display width height you just want see the plane data and want better performance don use clipmasks just use pixmap the stipple stippled rectangle fill many servers are very stupid about handling complex clip lists and turn bitmap clip region into hundreds and hundreds little clipping rectangles and clips every drawing primitive against every one these little triangles actually must also ask the faq most popular reason why graphics don show you wait for expose event before drawing your rectangle other info patchlevel motif sun sparc running sunos thanks advance nancie marin net nancie neko css gov ensco inc mail pineda melbourne fax kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara
comp.windows.x	windows motif gui design differences was future unix article apr sneaker ctt bellcore com sneaker ctt bellcore com yoo writes aab andy burgess aab cichlid com writes aab apr texhrc uucp pyeatt texaco com larry pyeatt writes aab some deleted you look closely motif you will see that just windows with more eye pleasing color and texture the only real difference that application window can contain other toplevel children while motif application window launches its children out onto the desktop aab those you familiar with both guis this correct experience aab with makes think that this msw behavior easily duplicated aab with but don know msw another important difference that msw doesn have any window that handle sophisticated geometry management like xmform also believe that windows you limited resources windows menus icons etc imho this whole discussion named motif looks like windogs totally stupid the only thing remotely influenced here can the motif window manager that features arrangement buttons and menus somewhat similiar this the windowmanaging agent however its name but mwm only small part motif fact mwm and motif can work without each other and one doesn like mwms outfit for some reason switches another windowmanager all this doesn influence motif which toolkit widgets write applications and this toolkit imho uncomparable because much more wellorganized and features alot goodies more than the interface you cannot say porsche looks like fer only because they have the wheel and the gear the same position motif and are complete different worlds only one element the motif world has some gear and wheel the same position brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	version whois has version whois been written out there where can ftp from thanks jesse asher varco pruden buildings poplar ave suite memphis internet jessea vpbuild com uucp vpbuild jessea
comp.windows.x	gui study users want build solutions let point out that both gui based word processors and text based formatters both have language one happens mouse and action based and the other symbol based true but that beside the point this fact about abstract model what the gui users are doing not about what they actually are doing this abstract model only apparent from the perpective programmer the system some users may see too but only when they put aside the work hand and start thinking like programmer not saying that the programmer perspective evil stunted after all that what too saying that designers must carefully distinguish between the user programmer conceptual models and they must ultimately serve the user the system not the builder the system don recall the actual stats but something like people can categorized symbol manipulator would interesting know more about the meaning and basis for this claim any rate don think this evidence that users think like programmers bankers financial analysts structural engineers these are all people whose work you could characterize primarily symbol manipulation but what they not programming and programming not required what they restate previous point yes users want build their own solutions they not want programming accomplish this
comp.windows.x	xlib thread safe article alex lcs mit edu gildea expo lcs mit edu stephen gildea writes the xlib not thread safe but are working see article the resource issue consortium members will have multi threaded version soon and will part there multi threaded xlib version written archie search for xlib host export lcs mit edu location contrib directory drwxr jul xlib location contrib xlib file jan xlib xhib file jan xlib tar location contrib xlib file jul xlib xhib file jul xlib tar eric overhead without any fuss the stars were going out the nine billion names god yes you very smart shut the princess bride
comp.windows.x	system file tmp what the directory unix for tmp when start created the system this directory wasn created root and contains empty file that owned for lot music ftp sounds sdsu edu then cat file dev audio library catalog telnet bison acsu buffalo edu when doubt ask xarchie xgopher xwais
comp.windows.x	how change the text cursor xterm have just finished building running interactive unix sysvr and having problem with xterm any font larger that messes characters that are types the cursor seems too large splits into reverse video outline block which changes when the pointer moved into the window trying use monospaced fonts not fonts there any way changing the appearence the block cursor xterm thanks john skoda windows for the electronic learning facilitators inc cobol for the century bethesda use ada unix and other socially dsc jfs imc med navy mil unacceptable systems dsc jfs imc med navy mil and before you flame expos fan need say more with disclaimer package
comp.windows.x	xwd trying run xwd sun sparcstation ipx with sunos and openwindows using the motif window manager have been unsuccessful using xwd under motif get the following when doing xwd out xwd dmp error failed request baddrawable invalid pixmap window parameter major opcode failed request getimage resource failed request serial number failed request current serial number output stream does anyone have any insight this
comp.windows.x	window manager currently use window manager called ctwm which very similar vuewm has multiple workspaces there motif based window manager that has this same feature and not memory pig like vue mike michael coe mind terrible thing laboratory applied logic university idaho coe leopard uidaho edu coe snake uidaho edu
comp.windows.x	and open look article apr aedc vax mil bonds aedc vax mil writes reposting this because not sure first post ever made out have built and installed sparcstation aim run the mit server but retain the openlook window manager sure this not uncommon but just want make sure that change and delete everything that need for instance can start xdm local but how get rid xnews the openlook window manager source available the mit contrib tapes from export lcs mit edu would suggest building this too rather than using the version from openwindows olwm regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	problems using graphic context with athena widgets creating graphics program using the athena widgets use xlib routines install custom graphics contex obtaining the display and window variables with the xtwindowofobject and xtdisplayofobject the object was one the sub widgets the problem occurs that whenever button pressed menu selected the graphic contex reverts the orginal one tried moving the allocation the graphic context before the allocation the buttons but nothing changed preforming all this manipulation before calling xtappmainloop thank you for any help leslie donaldson donaldlf rose hulman edu donaldlf nextwork rose hulman edu
comp.windows.x	toolkit directions article imp hellnet org devil loki hellnet org gil tene writes trying figure out the current toolkit directions more simply like know which toolkit bet for use new long term project have the same problem have looked motif wwl interviews gina and few variations the above also done cursory examination rogue wave view like view abstractions best all the toolkits mentioned but the resulting code looks little like motif and have little confidence that this software will catch otherwise result significant longevity for code gina allows you write code which looks great deal like motif and also makes interesting use inheritance but the resulting code almost too motif like and certainly not significantly less verbose than equivalent code interviews looks promising but haven found free version with motif support and not confident how widely interviews with motif support will adopted and what any specific motif support will available over time the other libraries produce code which less motif like but which does not make sufficient use the features simplify coding task this point inclination write motif manipulation routines and invoke those routines from code using simple abstractions suited specific task later osf some credible standards setting body comes with interface motif will change that does goo write choice interfaces leaves with code which leaves tied abstraction which not consistent with the industry directions better take standard inferior solution for now than with slgihtly superior approach which will leave with both useless code and useless skills few years from now views the only library consider right now but our environment end spending nearly use and can justify when likely cause short term productivity decreases learn the new abstraction and unlikely sufficiently long lived solution for reap the benefits the high end the curve brad brad daniels money can buy happiness daniels neosoft com guess have rent don work for neosoft and weird yenkovic don speak for employer
comp.windows.x	fresco status been hearing rumblings about fresco and sounds like may what looking for but how far from release least some kind availability how similar interviews code interviews will code work with fresco how about motif heard some mention versions interviews which support motif will feasible use motif with fresco any information would much appreciated brad brad daniels money can buy happiness daniels neosoft com guess have rent don work for neosoft and weird yenkovic don speak for employer
comp.windows.x	iconize running application article ifj csn org doomer teal csn org john dumais writes been trying figure way programmatically iconize application running under motif window manager have tried several approaches includeing sending events the application border window but avail anyone done this before tend use xiconifywindow achieve this effect have you tried that brad brad daniels money can buy happiness daniels neosoft com guess have rent don work for neosoft and weird yenkovic don speak for employer
comp.windows.x	iconize running application doesnt matter what window mgr you running under you can use the routine xiconfiywindow display screen number display display window int screen number xiconifywindow xtdisplay xtwindow does that perform what you want article ifj csn org doomer teal csn org john dumais writes newsgroups comp windows path shearson com uupsi psinntp uunet haven umd edu darwin sura net wupost zaphod mps ohio state edu magnus acs ohio state edu csn teal csn org doomer from doomer teal csn org john dumais sender news csn org news nntp posting host teal csn org organization colorado supernet inc newsreader tin date thu apr gmt lines been trying figure way programmatically iconize application running under motif window manager have tried several approaches includeing sending events the application border window but avail anyone done this before thanks doomer joe bore life short code hard jbore shearson com uunet shearson com jbore beeper
comp.windows.x	compiling clients sun ipx trying set ipx for another group copied all the stuff that compiled which runs sunos using gcc and most things run just fine however did find couple bugs and when try recompile those clients the ipx which runs get undefined symbol xshapequeryextension xshapecombinemask know that can include libxext and get rid those messages but can figure out why get them the ipx and not the any ideas ned danieley ndd sunbar duke edu basic arrhythmia laboratory box duke university medical center durham
comp.windows.x	motif athena etc berry durian citr andrew berry writes impression that most people use motif because their vendor supplies with sunos users excluded and because similar look and feel windows and personally also prefer the look and feel motif flames please just opinion seeing motif has been adopted sun ibm can remeber the other members the recent announcement sure you see virtually every workstation sun ibm and dec must make the vast majority all hardware also concerned this prevalence motif particularly from the point view writing and obtaining free software the linux and bsd communities grow however think that motif will lose some its grip least the non commercial marketplace ports motif both bsd and linux are available for fee about this cost recovery for the person who bought the rights redistribute the activity both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining motif has been high just wonder this will also cause divergence between commercial and non commercial software you will only get free software using athena openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets can see why just about every workstation will come with motif default and you can buy for under for the free unix platforms can see this causing major problems side note all the based code writing and will distribute freely when completed based motif because from programmatic and also look and feel point view like the best flames this one please bambi david hughes bambi senior network programmer comms development operation australia
comp.windows.x	sunview doubt this old question but didn find the answer the faqs could find here goes have sunview application that want convert openlook motiv whatever remember hearing quite some time ago that there are tools accomplish this task that are they public domain any good advantages over reimplementing the interface myself thanks alex
comp.windows.x	mouseless operation mouseless operation documented the man pages for olwm and olvwm however can get work either have this line xdefaults openwindows keyboardcommands full that should haven rebound the keys missing something
comp.windows.x	server multi screen xperts some simple questions for you seen lot different terms which seem mean the same thing who can give exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display server zaphod mode there limit how many screens displays single server can handle articel read something about upper limit how the capability called want move the cursor from one screen display another any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr wien austria europe mail rainer elin
comp.windows.x	motif mailing list there any interest hello motif world few days ago posted announcement for update motif got several requests send the bindings per mail and know several people who have been using motif and there are probably number people not aware who are also using motif question how many people out there would interested join mailing list where people can ask questions about motif swap stories and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the bindings this would benefit the user community well give more insight what people would like see added motif motif still very much voluntary project and this way can make list priorities what order things should added changed you interested joining such mailing list please take the time reply this message and tell when there sufficient interest say about people more mailing list will set site and will post the announcement the newly created list this and other newsgroups ronald van loon theory there difference rvloon ruu between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands practice however there
comp.windows.x	creating bit windows bit display how greetings using server that provides visuals pseudocolor bit truecolor bit and directcolor bit problem occurs when try create window with visual that different from the visual the parent which uses the default visual which the xlib reference guide from reilly one can read the section about xcteatewindow something like the current implementation when using visual other than the parent sure create find suitable colourmap which used the window attributes when creating else badmatch occurs this warning strangely enough only mentioned the newer editions the guides however even pass along suitable colourmap still get badmatch when create window with non default visual the code looks like this cut here and you destroy your crt window create bit window truecolour display dpy width height display dpy int width height window win xvisualinfo vinfo xsetwindowattributes attr fprintf stderr opening bit window xmatchvisualinfo dpy defaultscreen dpy pseudocolor vinfo fprintf stderr your display can handle bit pseudocolor exit fprintf stderr using visual vinfo visual visualid cmap xcreatecolormap dpy defaultrootwindow dpy vinfo visual allocnone xsync dpy false xinstallcolormap dpy cmap ommision this line gives same result attr colormap cmap win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr return win cut here and you destroy your crt executing this piece code results badmatch error anybody who knows why please drop line take care bram stolk stolk fwi uva
comp.windows.x	xwd gif conversions hello anyone know any source code can get either create window dumps gif format convert xwd window dump file into gif really could any format can manipulate dos pcx bmp etc later shane cleveland freenet edu uucp rutgers devon gizmonic csthomas god bless those pagans simpson
comp.windows.x	german keyboard and sparc have sparc with german type keyboard has anybody patch for thanks advance heinz josef claes email claes tigger turbo uni essen
comp.windows.x	printing ascii and above article noose ecn purdue edu achar ecn purdue edu lakshminarayana achar writes could some tell how print characters over ascii laser printer after being thrilled being able create them screen enthusiasm has somewhat died down due this setback well more information required what computer are you using what operating system are you using what kind printer are you using postscript pcl etc harvard ucbvax uwvax astroatc ftms brown psi com ftms brown rutgers internet brown extrel com ftms brown astroatc uucp wisc edu
comp.windows.x	xwindows always opaque wonder possible for parent window paint over the area its childs not then how could possible implement rubberband across multiple xwindows select the objects that are displayed one each window hauke
comp.windows.x	available memory the xserver how get the actual size hello everybody have little question due more features pex drag drop many applications when linked with for example motif instead motif need more memory the xserver terminals only have limited memory normally swapping possible question there possibility determine via protocol calls the size free memory available the xserver one can determine for example whether start pex application with the css client side server side when there enough memory please reply via mail summarize sincerly matthias matthias pfuetzner work home darmstadt frg zgdv wilhelminenstrasse lichtenbergstrasse pfuetzner igd fhg pfuetzner zgdvda uucp keith packard said different from that why changed the release number
comp.windows.x	xswarm enhancement has anybody the xswarm enhacemened use with more than one wasp please mail because don read this group any longer thanks advance klaus klaus singvogel mail kssingvo immd informatik uni erlangen
comp.windows.x	changing olwm icons was wondering possible change the window icons olwm uses for things like xterm most the defaults are pretty lame any answer where can find one would most appreciated thanks matt clark
comp.windows.x	fresco status issue the resource the published proceedings the annual technical conference has paper mark linton and chuck price titled building distributed interfaces with fresco the summary describes fresco formerly known consortium effort without doing complete review the paper just mention the goals stated one section the article the effort has the goal providing the next generation toolkit with functionality beyond the toolkit xlib features they want fresco include lightweight objects such interviews glyphs structured graphics resolution independence natural programming interface edit place embedding distributed user interface components multithreading this means captures the complete content the paper the conclusions sections mentions that rough draft specification should available early with schedule paper presented jan for complete sample implementation not affiliated with any the people places mentioned above brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan
comp.windows.x	xwindows always opaque article hess swt hess swt informatik uni hamburg hauke hess writes wonder possible for parent window paint over the area its childs not then how could possible implement rubberband across multiple xwindows select the objects that are displayed one each window hauke you specify the rootwindow when you are creating your you may use xlib draw over multiple windows have application that does something similar for rubber banding curs move xcreatefontcursor disp data crosshair geom vals foreground blck pixl grey dark geom vals plane mask allplanes geom vals line width geom vals function gxxor geom vals subwindow mode includeinferiors evnt mask gcforeground gcplanemask gclinewidth gcfunction gcsubwindowmode geom gcon xcreategc disp data root iden evnt mask geom vals later can move the rubber band bands using the following logic void tselect move bands int delt xloc int delt yloc stuff deleted xdrawrectangle disp data root iden geom gcon sele pntr rootx sele pntr rooty sele pntr xlnth sele pntr ylnth undraw old one sele pntr papax delt xloc sele pntr papay delt yloc sele pntr rootx delt xloc sele pntr rooty delt yloc xdrawrectangle disp data root iden geom gcon sele pntr rootx sele pntr rooty sele pntr xlnth sele pntr ylnth draw new one more stuff deleted hope this helps brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan
comp.windows.x	motif athena etc article azj kirk bambi kirk david hughes writes also concerned this prevalence motif particularly from the point view writing and obtaining free software the linux and bsd communities grow however think that motif will lose some its grip least the non commercial marketplace ports motif both bsd and linux are available for fee about this cost recovery for the person who bought the rights redistribute the activity both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining motif has been high just wonder this will also cause divergence between commercial and non commercial software you will only get free software using athena openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets can see why just about every workstation will come with motif default and you can buy for under for the free unix platforms can see this causing major problems think you will find that the active linux and bsd communities are populated enthusiasts who would object paying any money for software otherwise they would probably have gone for commercial unix important factor the linux community that source code always available this probably similar the bsd community however not really involved there many people using linux like stay the cutting bleeding edge when kernel patches library compiler patches come out people like rebuild their entire systems the prime requirement for all linux software that available under gnu style public license hence linux software uses either the athena widgets xview individuals may write software requiring motif but doubt widely adopted regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	expose events please excuse previous posting was appended this thread accident robert
comp.windows.x	expose events posted about this while ago but without code excerpts noone was able help the problem that main win win doing fine but when create detail win win does not receive initial expose events until main win win receives event here are the relevent calls main win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint myhint myhint width myhint height main win line thick xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win main win text main win text none argv argc myhint main win xcreategc mydisplay main win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win xmapsubwindows mydisplay main win win the event mask for main win pposition psize structurenotifymask exposuremask keypressmask enterwindowmask leavewindowmask the flags are pposition psize then create detail win win with the following calls hints has new values detail win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint myhint myhint width myhint height detail win line thick xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win detail win text detail win text none argv argc myhint detail win xcreategc mydisplay detail win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win event mask and flags are identical main win flags and event mask anybody has any idea why the initial expose events detail win win are not received until main win win receives event love hear from them other that that everything works great there must some detail overseeing thanks for any tips robert rgasch oracle com
comp.windows.x	delayed expose events posted about this while ago but without code excerpts noone was able help the problem that main win win doing fine but when create detail win win does not receive initial expose events until main win win receives event here are the relevent calls main win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint myhint myhint width myhint height main win line thick xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win main win text main win text none argv argc myhint main win xcreategc mydisplay main win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win xmapsubwindows mydisplay main win win the event mask for main win pposition psize structurenotifymask exposuremask keypressmask enterwindowmask leavewindowmask the flags are pposition psize then create detail win win with the following calls hints has new values detail win win xcreatesimplewindow mydisplay defaultrootwindow mydisplay myhint myhint myhint width myhint height detail win line thick xsetstandardproperties mydisplay main win win detail win text detail win text none argv argc myhint detail win xcreategc mydisplay detail win win xmapraised mydisplay detail win win event mask and flags are identical main win flags and event mask anybody has any idea why the initial expose events detail win win are not received until main win win receives event love hear from them other that that everything works great there must some detail overseeing thanks for any tips robert rgasch oracle com the same message was accidentally appended the expose events thread sorry for any confusion caused
comp.windows.x	and gateway just got myself gateway and trying configure for has anyone done this before more specifically need correct xconfig file entry that set for graphics card and monitor have color crystalscan monitor and vesa local bus ati ultra pro with vram video card any help will extremely appreciated thanks advance please send replies christy alex christy
comp.windows.x	cursor size problems apologies for those who have read this before but one has solved this one yet posting again sorry having problems creating cursor bigger than using motif running all the functions return valid results but cursor appears when the bitmap bigger than the aforementioned size tried using the following code unsigned int xquerybestcursor xtdisplay programarea xtwindow programarea return the nearest size what require however returns and the width and height respectively what doing wrong and not how can get round the problem thanks advance mike
comp.windows.x	need plot package steve steve frysinger blue feather farm spf cbnewsl att com writes steve folks steve looking for public domain plotting package for steve need basic capabilities axes labels log and linear steve hard imagine that someone has not put such thing steve together hoping avoid reinventing the wheel steve thanks for any leads steve steve frysinger your might take look plplot version actually beta can found anonymous ftp from hagar utexas edu the pub plplot directory mark mark stucky email united technologies research center mark ardnt res utc com east hartford mbs rcinet res utc com mbs utrc res utc com from the readme file version this the plplot distribution plplot scientific plotting package for many systems small micro and large super alike despite its small size and quickness has enough power satisfy most users including standard plots semilog plots log log plots contour plots plots mesh plots bar charts and pie charts multiple graphs the same different sizes may placed single page with multiple lines each graph different line styles widths and colors are supported virtually infinite number distinct area fill patterns may used there are almost characters the extended character set this includes four different fonts the greek alphabet and host mathematical musical and other symbols the fonts can scaled any size for various effects many different output device drivers are available system dependent including portable metafile format and renderer the plplot package freely distributable but not the public domain the plplot source code except header files and those files explicitly granting permission may not used commercial software package without consent the authors you are allowed and encouraged include the plplot object library and header files commercial package provided that explicitly and prominently stated that the plplot library freely available and the full copyrights the plplot package displayed somewhere the documentation for the package welcome suggestions how improve this code especially the form user contributed enhancements bug fixes plplot used any published papers please include acknowledgment citation our work which will help continue improving plplot also please remember that plplot not commercial product cannot expected offer the kind support that commercial product may there great interest extending plplot and fixing bugs but the principal authors can only afford work part time improvements will necessarily focus those which help get our work done plplot written enabling run many platforms practically without modification fortran programs may use transparently stub routines are provided handle the fortran interface without any modification the user program programs are required include the header file plplot see the documentation for more details the main documentation for plplot the doc directory the form several tex files please consult this for additional information latex plotdoc unfortunately documentation tends lag actual improvements the code don surprised some known features are not explained there consult changes log see list recent changes present plplot known work the following systems unix sunos unicos ultrix sysv linux amiga exec dos next for more information how get use plplot your system see appendices the plplot manual system specific documentation the appropriate sys system directory become subscriber the plplot mailing list send request plplot request dino utexas edu credits plplot the result the effort many people impractical list all the contributors those currently supporting and otherwise responsible for the package its present form include maurice lebrun please send all comments flames patches etc responsible for all the plplot kernel development well most the work the metafile xwindow xterm postscript tektronix and amiga drivers email mjl fusion utexas edu usmail maurice lebrun institute for fusion studies university texas austin geoff furnish please send questions regarding the dos and drivers geoff email furnish fusion utexas edu usmail geoff furnish institute for fusion studies university texas austin tony richardson creator plplot please send questions regarding installation plplot the next tony email amr egr duke edu usmail tony richardson tony richardson electrical engineering chapel hill road apt duke university durham durham
comp.windows.x	macx color problem have peculiar color problem with macx apple macintosh server like know others have seen the same problem happened with the current version and with version when some types client windows are displayed parts the windows are the wrong color the window moved slightly forcing the server repaint repainted the correct colors doesn happen for xterm windows but has happened for graphic windows and with some motif clients stan kerr computing communications services office illinois urbana phone email stankerr uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	info wanted security holes has anyone out there compile list security holes yes will you please send copy this this wrong group please point right one thanks btw the list doesn have contain the info how use the holes instead need the info how detect the holes how seal the holes and how monitor the activities possible any info welcomed thanks eric grad student obviousness always the enemy jui lin eric correctness bertrand russell jlu umr edu univ missouri rolla
comp.windows.x	need help with athena text widget want create single line text widget for entering small amount text want fixed width but have horizontal scrollbar that scrolls automatically when the user types order keep the insertion point visible trying this have two problems the addition the horizontal scrollbar does not make the text widget taller but instead seems cover part the text the scrollbar does not scroll automatically the user types text order keep the insertion point visible any help appreciated mike name michael strawbridge tele usmail national institute standards arpa straw cam nist gov and technology uucp uunet cme durer straw bldg gaithersburg
comp.windows.x	widget for displaying images before try teach myself how write widget and perhaps invent the wheel there widget that displays for example bit grey level image the same fashion that the athena plotter widget can used display plot robert cothren phd rim bme ccf org department biomedical engineering the cleveland clinic foundation voice cleveland ohio fax
comp.windows.x	dec pixmap size article igd fhg haase igd fhg helmut haase goebel writes got problem concerning the maximum size pixmaps decwindows using decstation running ultrix rev system and uws rev decwindows our color display has pixels other hardware sgi able allocate much larger pixmaps did anyone have similar problems before does onyone know how can configre system allow for larger pixmaps any suggestins are welcome please send mail haase igd fhg dec does this only for their and pxg servers known accelerators this boards have local offscreen memory which limited and slow handle thus they set this limit brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	circular motif widgets will there any support for round circular widgets motif next release love have circular knob widget which could used instead slider cheers
comp.windows.x	and gateway article daily planet concordia christy concordia christy writes just got myself gateway and trying configure for has anyone done this before more specifically need correct xconfig file entry that set for graphics card and monitor have color crystalscan monitor and vesa local bus ati ultra pro with vram video card thanks advance didn your operating system come with sysv usually does far know you best contact the people from whom you bought ths you running linux something similar good luck please send replies christy alex christy voice reason the midst liberalnet mike chapman higher lifeform trapped human body aka fourdee political correctness the tool the mentally disadvantaged will not raise taxes the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	cursor size problems article compsci liverpool mbell csc liv mike bell writes apologies for those who have read this before but one has solved this one yet posting again sorry having problems creating cursor bigger than using motif running all the functions return valid results but cursor appears when the bitmap bigger than the aforementioned size tried using the following code unsigned int xquerybestcursor xtdisplay programarea xtwindow programarea return the nearest size what require however returns and the width and height respectively what doing wrong and not how can get round the problem does the workstation you using have hardware cursor support does the server generate software cursor you can generally tell the difference just using the cursor blinks lot when there screen activity probably software cursor has hardware cursor think you probably battling bug server not familiar with any hardware cursor chips that display cursors greater than quite possible that the server just echoing your preferred cursor size without actually checking vaguely recall that very old mit server revisions did just that reality you probably stuck with maximum size cursor regardless what the server returns joel
comp.windows.x	virtual mouse open look under the virtual mouse simulation available under been told setting the right resource yet continues not work running olvwm olwm sun
comp.windows.x	need xman source where can get xman source would rather get xman for but source will
comp.windows.x	why need xrdb when xdefaults unchanged having resource problem using brian wilson wscrawl wonderful interactive conferencing program the way running openwindows sparc under have the following defaults xdefaults file among many others wscrawl telepointername kevin wscrawl syncscrollbars true wscrawl continuoustelepointer true wscrawl showpointercoordinates false wscrawl background lightblue wscrawl swindow foreground yellow wscrawl draw area frame foreground blue wscrawl keyboardfocuspolicy pointer naturally exited the server and restarted after adding those lines xdefaults run the following from cmdtool pwd home dir xrdb xdefaults and then start wscrawl then all those defaults are used properly wonderful yes except that can get them operative except manually invoking the afore mentioned xrdb command try xrdb xdefaults the defaults won take tried change the xrdb call xinitrc file from xrdb home xdefaults xrdb home xdefaults tried adding xrdb home kbw xdefaults the beginning end openwin init file still any notions what gives thanks for the help kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	key definitions emacs use emacs and want customize keyboard better when set stuff emacs with keymap and define keys can only access certain the keys terminal keyboard can get home end pgup pgdn they all seem have either the same keycode have feeling this can fixed emacs itself but that need some xmodmap stuff can someone help the way checked the faq and posted similar message gnu emacs help response currently have the following emacs file inside cond string match xterm getenv term done don know what most this does defvar xterm map make sparse keymap keymap for xterm special keys define key esc map xterm prefix fset xterm prefix xterm map keys define key xterm map goto line define key xterm map what line define key xterm map rmail define key xterm map replace string define key xterm map end line define key xterm map kill line define key xterm map yank define key xterm map beginning line define key xterm map end line define key xterm map scroll down define key xterm map scroll keys down etc can get the keys define key xterm map set mark command andrew jaffe ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu dep astronomy and astrophysics chicago ellis ave chicago fax
comp.windows.x	property problems article wsmart tay mcs dundee bill smart writes get the number back the other client does appatom xinternatom display applicationwindow true xgetwindowproperty display defaultrootwindow display appatom false window return type return format nitems return bar return place and appears get back something valid just not the right number always seems return the same number regardless the window number stored the property return place probably incorrect should pointer not integer xgetwindowproperty allocates memory copies the data there and returns pointer the memory you should free the memory when you done ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	looking for and xaw want compile xdvi and later perhaps emacs dec ultrix machine with installed unfortunately and xaw libs and headers are missing how can get them without having compile the whole mit distribution pleasy reply email viola yukawa uni muenster thanks advance
comp.windows.x	problem with libxmu sunos and gcc using patch with the sunos patch posted export did optionally apply the patch olit libxmu compiles fine when try use with clients bmtoa and twm get errors can not figure out what wrong gcc fpcc struct return twm gram lex deftwmrc add window list twm parse menus events resize util version iconmgr cursor icons usr wgep sos lib run path run path lib xmu lxmu lib extensions lib lib extensions lib lxext extensions lib lxext lib usr wgep sos lib lsocket lnsl warning file extensions lib libxext attempted multiple inclusion file libxext undefined first referenced symbol file xtappsetwarningmsghandler lib xmu libxmu xtscreendatabase lib xmu libxmu xtdisplaystringconversionwarning lib xmu libxmu xterrormsg lib xmu libxmu xtrealloc lib xmu libxmu xtismanaged lib xmu libxmu xtmalloc lib xmu libxmu xtgetapplicationresources lib xmu libxmu xtownselection lib xmu libxmu xtgetconstraintresourcelist lib xmu libxmu xtcalloc lib xmu libxmu xtname lib xmu libxmu xtstringconversionwarning lib xmu libxmu xtappsettypeconverter lib xmu libxmu xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu xtgetresourcelist lib xmu libxmu xtfree lib xmu libxmu xtdestroywidget lib xmu libxmu xtgetvalues lib xmu libxmu xtwarningmsg lib xmu libxmu xttranslatecoords lib xmu libxmu xtcvtstringtofont lib xmu libxmu xtwidgettoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu xtwarning lib xmu libxmu xtcreatewidget lib xmu libxmu xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu xtvasetvalues lib xmu libxmu xtappwarningmsg lib xmu libxmu xtgetselectionvalue lib xmu libxmu xtresolvepathname lib xmu libxmu fatal symbol referencing errors output written twm error code douglas acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker waii com voice
comp.windows.x	help event propagation the following problem really bugging and would appreciate any help create two windows child root with event mask buttonpressmask keypressmask child with not propagate mask buttonpressmask keypressmask keypress events are discarded but buttonpress events fall through with subwindow set fyi using xnews olvwm doing something fundamentally wrong here
comp.windows.x	motif athena etc article apr nrao edu rgooch csiro richard gooch writes really involved there many people using linux like stay the cutting bleeding edge when kernel patches library compiler patches come out people like rebuild their entire systems the prime requirement for all linux software that available under gnu style public license hence linux software uses either the athena widgets xview individuals may write software requiring motif but doubt widely adopted shameless plug the xaw widgets make athena much nicer alternative than the stock mit athena code mike michael connor internet mjo fmsrl srl ford com ford motor company opeo uucp fmsrl opeo mjo rotunda bldg phone dearborn fax
comp.windows.x	sunview doubt this old question but didn find the answer the faqs could find here goes have sunview application that want convert openlook motiv whatever remember hearing quite some time ago that there are tools accomplish this task that are they public domain any good advantages over reimplementing the interface myself the simple answer for you obtain use xview this xview one one replacement for sunview should already provided with you sun running openwindows also free available part the contrib side the mit release patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	motif athena etc article azj kirk bambi kirk david hughes writes berry durian citr andrew berry writes ports motif both bsd and linux are available for fee about this cost recovery for the person who bought the rights redistribute the activity both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining motif has been high just wonder this will also cause divergence between commercial and non commercial software you will only get free software using athena openlook widget sets and only get commercial software using the motif widget sets can see why just about every workstation will come with motif default and you can buy for under for the free unix platforms can see this causing major problems let add another concerns yes can buy port motif for cheap but cannot get the source for cheap hence limited using whatever libraries the motif port was compiled against least with older versions motif have been told that motif can used with any but have not seen myself currently have running eight different unix platforms which only three came with motif those three unable use the libraries build motif clients because get link errors between the vendor supplied port motif and anticipate having this same problem when becomes available the result that cannot build motif clients that rely since not have motif compiled under true could buy another port motif but that sort ruins the whole idea free doesn cheers tom mcconnell tom mcconnell internet tmcconne sedona intel com intel corp phone chandler blvd the opinions expressed are own one chandler their right mind would claim them
comp.windows.x	image processing packages under looking for package that implements standard image processing functions reading writing from standard formats clipping zoom etc implemented under both public domain and private packages are interest the particular application area have mind medical imaging but package meant for more general context would acceptable please reply will summarize the net there general interest prateek mishra mishra sbcs sunysb edu
comp.windows.x	xcopyplane question article neko css gov nancie neko css gov nancie marin writes trying use xcopyplane copy single plane from depth pixmap depth pixmap everytime try this see absolutely nothing displayed know there data the depth pixmap becuase have checked doing xcopyarea the screen the code fragment looks reasonable but your logic valid just because something appears bit deep pixmap doesn mean every bit plane contains data did you try each plane ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	changing dpy max request size article zlo world std com world std com oliver jones writes article netnews upenn edu mcclenne dingdong cis upenn edu nennelccm nodrog writes does anyone out there know how change the maximum request size for server ordinarily set the highest value the underlying can yes and you don want change this value you running image type applications steve hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say vms
comp.windows.x	interface access separate appl article expo lcs mit edu dbohdal jaguar ess harris com writes dear xperts here problem designing several related applications each one separate executable and like build single control window that would allow the user access each application instead having locate the correct icon the control window would contain button for each application and pressing the application main window would appear would also like use the application button color status indicator has anyone done this have any good ideas because these are all separate executables this seems like communications nightmare but maybe wrong appreciate any ideas using and motif thanks dbohdal jaguar ess harris com can think two different methods that you could try use fork and execv use the system called your program assuming that you running under the unix course steve hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say vms
comp.windows.x	opinions galaxy are currently evaluating gui builders initially for motif but with wish flexible portable have been through the popular names uimx teleuse xvt etc and have been very impressed with what have seen galaxy from visix have spoken current users from list supplied visix happy users you would expect and seen favourable comments the net however since fairly expensive get evaluation license from visix would like query the net for any negative experiences with galaxy did anybody evaluate them and prefer another tool use galaxy and regret find any mis features advthanksance phil phil gray voice macdonald dettwiler fax commerce parkway richmond canada pmg mda uunet van mdavcr pmg
comp.windows.x	keyboard focussing have two motif widgets would like control one them via the keyboard and the other with the mouse set the keyboard focus the first widget but soon click the mouse the second one lose the keyboard focus the first one could some kind soul show how this thanks dev hollywood acsc com
comp.windows.x	key definitions emacs article apr midway uchicago edu ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu andrew jaffe writes use emacs and want customize keyboard better when set stuff emacs with keymap and define keys can only access certain the keys terminal keyboard can get home end pgup pgdn they all seem have either the same keycode have feeling this can fixed emacs itself but that need some xmodmap stuff can someone help actually worse than you think have the same problem and have given emacs has internal table somewhere which defines what keys will accept and this table system dependent use sun from and cannot get shift pageup work xmodmap not sufficient least haven worked out how make work however can get ordinary pageup and shift cursorright work and some customised things with them note that the emacs has problem and using exactly the same xmodmap and emacs configuration nick maclaren university cambridge computer laboratory new museums site pembroke street cambridge england email nmm cus cam tel fax
comp.windows.x	problem with libxmu sunos and gcc article qmt waii com dla waii com doug acker writes using patch with the sunos patch posted export did optionally apply the patch olit libxmu compiles fine when try use with clients bmtoa and twm get errors can not figure out what wrong gcc fpcc struct return twm gram lex deftwmrc add window list twm parse menus events resize util version iconmgr cursor icons usr wgep sos lib run path run path lib xmu lxmu lib extensions lib lib extensions lib lxext extensions lib lxext lib usr wgep sos lib lsocket lnsl warning file extensions lib libxext attempted multiple inclusion file libxext undefined first referenced symbol file xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu fatal symbol referencing errors output written twm error code the problem was that sunpost was not defined douglas acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker waii com voice
comp.windows.x	xterm build problem solaris continuing build problems got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return xterm main input charproc cursor util tabs screen scrollbar button tekproc misc vtprstbl tekprstbl data menu usr wgep sos lib run path run path lib xaw lxaw lib xmu lxmu lib lxt extensions lib lxext lib usr wgep sos lib lsocket lnsl ltermcap undefined first referenced symbol file index usr ucblib libtermcap termcap rindex usr ucblib libtermcap termcap fatal symbol referencing errors output written xterm error code make fatal error command failed for target xterm any clues for help douglas acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker waii com voice
comp.windows.x	dynamic changing the title bar looking for program can insert into some code that will allow the title bar changed window dynamicly one already out there would appreciate location don have create this from scratch thanks advance bob hosid dloslv xerox
comp.windows.x	mit sun with rasterops colorboard possible run mit based xserver sun with rasterops colorboard bit board have the xsun patches for supporting sun bit frame buffers but does the rasterops appear its cgtwelve something else know nothing about the rasterops other than might buying one put ipx cheers mark
comp.windows.x	svr binary dists was rfd create comp unix sys univel article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse wrote you seem little confused the socialistic hackers who yell about proprietary software are hardly enamored motif which just objectionable that mindset news might wear socialistic hacker hat for moment tar news and motif with the same brush and that brush not technical begging everyone pardon was not slamming motif nor was necessarily plugging flaming the two was responding the sweet blithe statement rick digibd from rick digibd digibd com rick richardson rick this one area where microsoft has big advantage since rick they control the whole show there are issues like this where rick licensees create incompatible defacto standards this happy statement shows mindset that inventors and companies have when they are pleased with something that works and they believe that others will also happy use remember when sunview was hot stuff and not that statement endorsing sun and its products this just experience and when openwindows became hot stuff that was when started hearing mentioned before the socialistic masses that were bent destroying anything that was deemed proprietary including openwindows mentioned motif the same breath because that what sun has decided turn its attention not because hate richardson position believe healthy one and sure that the seething hackers will soon try flame and destroy ever shows wanting instead everything free and then complaining when there organized structure and there are facto standards was just vent for frustration brought prevailing winds mrs henne
comp.windows.x	and for folks does anybody know for good bit compiler for that supports api and microsoft windows maybe windows thanx marovac sdsu
comp.windows.x	xrolo spacrc sunos audio could some one please send tell where ftp from the patches required for xrolo that can compile the sparcstation phone dialing feature using sunos and therefore don have multimedia libaudio multimedia audio device and associated functions just case our mail gateway only accepts msgs thanks advance shash shash chatterjee email fwr fin mil software phone lockheed fort worth company fax box worth
comp.windows.x	imake book review thanks for the many offers review this book you received review copy please return soon possible had system crash and lost the list people sent thanks adrian nye reilly and associates adrian ora com
comp.windows.x	multi screen apps and window managers working project provide emergency management information system keeping with more classic command and control type systems are considering developing dual screen monitor system order provide status board own monitor have number level questions regarding this are devloping unix systems using motif platform will predominantly sun probably with ports well assuming the standard dual monitor systems are configured such that are talking about one display and multiple screens and not multiple displays given this changing input focus from one screen the other simple tracking your mouse from one screen the other there nothing special that needs done shift focus between screens have run separate window managers the separate screens are there multiscreen window managers out there what are they who sells them multi screen window manager the only way can grab window frame and move window from one screen the next there any way for the application transparently see multiple screens one logical plane does the hardware only provide for each screen start any thoughts the difficulties involved with designing system capable using either multiple screens single screen perhaps running virtual window manager simulate multiple screens instead assuming that this not major issue that can rely providing config files which will specify for each configuration the screen placement each window the application any thoughts suggestions from past experience are more than welcome pelkey phone battelle pacific northwest labs fax mail stop email pelkey pnl gov box richland
comp.windows.x	ideal operating system was death blow unix day windows step forward but not much guess for dos users who think multi tasking really neat add puke here and are overjoyed able use more than memory its major improvement for windows users its more like upgrade with facilities most unix users take for granted most windows users only use pcs for text processing running party applications anyway the operating system features are not even real issue ideal operating system binary compatible across all plaforms should recognize binaries and configure the fly don have have bin mac bin dos bin dec bin sun bin etc multi cpu can use the cpus and and mac and transputers and dsps don know single site which has gone for single vendor not going trade mflops per transputer ultra fast fft dsp chips note runs symmetric multi cpu systems built portable gui graphics tools you can call drawbutton drawline and does the same thing matter what platform display should also translate graphics commands the fly can use graphics workstation and software think guis are not just nice have but essential configurable front end you can make look like unix dos and run shell scripts command bat files object oriented can program easily under and not have invent the wheel the networking not scratch application needs access source object code the fly other words should have some capability that and tight clean kernel you can actually understand anyone know something like this adios ata mail ata etemadi blackett laboratory space and atmospheric physics group imperial college science technology and medicine internet arpanet earn bitnet atae spva ata mssl ucl span spva atae msslc atae
comp.windows.x	please ignore ideal operating system was death blow unix whoops wrong group soooooooooooooooorry folks
comp.windows.x	trouble compiling sunos article apr head cfa harvard edu dmm head cfa harvard edu david meleedy writes been trying compile patchlevel sun sparc ipx using sunos and gcc the problem occurs during the initial make world when gets compiling the standard clients can seem find some the libraries right now highly suspect the program which was updated for yip had the same problem the only fix found was link static some the clients btw used francisco ballesteros nemo email nemo clip dia upm org computer science clip lab phone campus montegancedo boadilla del monte madrid spain
comp.windows.x	server multi screen rainer sun eeam elin rainer hochreiter writes xperts some simple questions for you seen lot different terms which seem mean the same thing who can give exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display server zaphod mode there limit how many screens displays single server can handle articel read something about upper limit how the capability called want move the cursor from one screen display another any hints welcome thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr wien austria europe mail rainer elin how many clients may display server believe the limit would how much memory available your server allocated the server indecision the key timothy neto flexibility you can gadget widget works mail god flight systems lab boeing comm aircraft ideas not boeing internet ten fsl boeing com
comp.windows.x	motif maling list all anyone knows motif mailing list don have access network news and there longer motif list alfalfa com thanks joel joel reymont code software corporation mail joel code com redwood hwy suit san rafael
comp.windows.x	raster and text widgets view only xew version version xew widgets available export lcs mit edu contrib xew tar export lcs mit edu contrib xew readme for better details check the readme for extensive details you have with xew still haven had time update this one new functionality has been added since version raster widget handles now expose events slightly more intelligently than before really had this when added simple program that uses athena porthole and panner widgets the program demo viewer very simple demonstration panner porthole usage copied from editres actually markku savela savela tel vtt technical research centre finland telecommunications laboratory otakaari espoo finland
comp.windows.x	xterm build problem solaris dla waii com doug acker writes continuing build problems got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return xterm main input charproc cursor util tabs screen scrollbar button tekproc misc vtprstbl tekprstbl data menu usr wgep sos lib run path run path lib xaw
comp.windows.x	question window ids article wnk aquifer geology uiuc edu wnk aquifer geology uiuc edu walter kreiling writes given program running workstation with based window system how can one pop the window which running the top window mean the terminal window from which was invoked one can the application may not have been started from terminal emulator was the terminal emulator may not still exist and does may condition pop ped the top may iconified and even you can may not what you want consider virtual root window manager like tvtwm with the relevant window portion the virtual desktop that outside the real desktop some but not all terminal emulators provide environment variables giving window even such thing present the environment may not what you want may correspond window different server for example der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	server multi screen article qlop sgp sun eeam elin rainer sun eeam elin rainer hochreiter writes seen lot different terms which seem mean the same thing who can give exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display server zaphod mode applied servers the first three are fuzzy terms multi headed tends used for any system with multiple monitors sometimes even multiple screens even they multiplexed onto the same monitor sun with display multi screen and multi display would taken strictly mean different things but since the strict meaning multi display would refer system with multiple keyboards and pointers when used probably refers the same thing multi screen would system that provides multiple screens zaphod term applied the way the mit server switches the pointer from one screen another sliding off the side the screen there limit how many screens displays single server can handle articel read something about upper limit there protocol limitation that restricts given display most screens know server that handles multiple displays single invocation unless possibly kludges the server can looked upon such tcp based system there necessarily limit displays per machine but this not limitation inherent what you read was most likely talking about limit some particular implementation probably the mit one claimed there was limit inherent the author the article had business writing about der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	creating bit windows bit display how article apr fwi uva stolk fwi uva bram writes using server that provides visuals pseudocolor bit truecolor bit and directcolor bit lucky dog problem occurs when try create window with visual that different from the visual the parent which uses the default visual which the xlib reference guide from reilly one can read the section about xcteatewindow something like the current implementation when using visual other than the parent sure create find suitable colourmap which used the window attributes when creating else badmatch occurs this warning strangely enough only mentioned the newer editions the guides applies with equal force earlier versions presumably only recently did the author decide was important enough mention the necessity refers has always been there but been implicit the way createwindow requests default some attributes the new window however even pass along suitable colourmap still get badmatch when create window with non default visual attr colormap cmap win xcreatewindow copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr this because the warning you read incomplete you have provide not only colormap but also border the default border copyfromparent which not valid when the window depth doesn match its parent specify border pixmap the correct depth border pixel and the problem should away there another problem can find anything indicate that copyfromparent makes any sense the border width parameter xcreatewindow your xlib implementation probably defines copyfromparent zero simplify the conversion wire format you are unwittingly asking for border width zero due the xlib implementation not providing stricter type checking fair not entirely certain possible for xlib catch this der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	available memory the xserver how get the actual size article igd fhg pfuetz igd fhg matthias pfuetzner writes there possibility determine via protocol calls the size free memory available the xserver even you could the answer could out date even before you get even you grab the server could taken buffering user actions you should just try whatever you want badalloc error your indication that insufficient server memory available der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	xwindows always opaque distribution comp please don misuse newsgroup hierarchy names distributions article hess swt hess swt informatik uni hamburg hauke hess writes wonder possible for parent window paint over the area its childs yes but not attribute the window attribute the used the drawing set the subwindow mode includeinferiors rather than the default clipbychildren der mouse mouse mcrcim mcgill edu
comp.windows.x	german keyboard and sparc claes polaris heinz josef claes writes have sparc with german type keyboard has anybody patch for export lcs mit edu pub sunkbd tar maf martin forssen maf dtek chalmers maf math chalmers system administrator math and dtek chalmers univ technology
comp.windows.x	searching for xgolf recently found the file xgolf german ftp site reseq regent technik muenchen but unfortunately the shar file was incomplete and the author email address given the readme file markh saturn edu does not work can anyone assist giving the location full version this any other golf game for game way contacting the author please reply email you can help ade adrian savage university bradford email savage bradford
comp.windows.x	searching for xgolf the xgolf program was april fool joke sigh steve hite shite sinkhole unf edu
comp.windows.x	macx color problem stan kerr writes when some types client windows are displayed parts the windows are the wrong color the window moved slightly forcing the server repaint repainted the correct colors doesn happen have the exact same problem when running hewlett packard microwave design system mds from unix box and running macx sys normally mds draws window with deep blue backround but occasionally becomes light blue and all the text etc inside the window become washed out nearly invisible thought that was just something brain dead that was doing subtle conflict with another app init slightly moving the window and forcing draw the colors get corrected harry wolfson wolfson mit edu
comp.windows.x	and open look article apr nrao edu rgooch csiro richard gooch writes article apr aedc vax mil bonds aedc vax mil writes reposting this because not sure first post ever made out have built and installed sparcstation aim run the mit server but retain the openlook window manager sure this not uncommon but just want make sure that change and delete everything that need for instance can start xdm local but how get rid xnews the openlook window manager source available the mit contrib tapes from export lcs mit edu would suggest building this too rather than using the version from openwindows olwm would suggest skipping olwm and getting olvwm instead this version the olwm window manager implements virtual desktop that find really handy even large monitors this version also available export lcs mit edu contrib olvwm tar the readme file also suggest getting the files contrib xview case built the server first xview second then olvwm all these were installed into usr once verified the server worked correctly happily issued usr openwin using gcc build all the above resulted windowing system that for all intents and purposes identical openwindows and that incredibly faster there bit tweaking you will have you want things work exactly like openwindows but not much paul bash techware design bash tware com boulder
comp.windows.x	request need tvtwm sources with mods from caley hello way back the mists time had set patches written richard caley believe the standars distribution patch level which added regular expressions the tvtwmrc file multiple icon regions squeezable icons and deleteordestroy function still have the patches however can longer find the sources which they applied appreciate some kind soul could send pointer where could find the sources has anyone updated the patches for richard are you out there pretty please thanks advance manoj
comp.windows.x	tek quitting xterm activities caught mailmessage from ncd guy who stated that tek might quitting terminal activities and would looking for interested buyer since the source this message ncd this might only nasty gossip can anyone say more about this dick ahold room ankersmidplein zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold tel fax
comp.windows.x	xdm and solaris the xdm solaris was broke since two weeks sun distributes patched release which works fine supports etc shadow and all have and running ever since and have not experienced any problems call your local sun rep dick ahold room ankersmidplein zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold tel fax
comp.windows.x	xterm build problem solaris dla waii com doug acker writes continuing build problems got stuck here build xterm gcc fpcc struct return xterm main input charproc cursor util tabs screen scrollbar button tekproc misc vtprstbl tekprstbl data menu usr wgep sos lib run path run path lib xaw lxaw lib xmu lxmu lib lxt extensions lib lxext lib usr wgep sos lib lsocket lnsl ltermcap undefined first referenced symbol file index usr ucblib libtermcap termcap rindex usr ucblib libtermcap termcap fatal symbol referencing errors output written xterm error code make fatal error command failed for target xterm any clues for help either add lucb lelf the list define index and rindex strchr and strrchr respectively both use same args former are bsd latter are sysv ahold room ankersmidplein zaandam the netherlands eec dick heijne ccsds ahold tel fax
comp.windows.x	compiling sun have piece code that compiles fine pmax pmax mach well sun mach but whenever compiles sun gives undefined errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that linked are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext the makefile generated off imake template can anyone give pointers what missing out compile sun thanx wilson
comp.windows.x	color bitmap editor needed folks does anybody know where can find the color bitmap editor around the public sites any information appreciate that chang
comp.windows.x	anyone have experience with visix galaxy article world std com grier world std com the political crony writes the title line says the galaxy package was just recently announced and includes gui builder and portable toolkit interested any feedback from those who may have used thus far been using for year unix sun and and windows platforms opinion the best toolkit the market supports rich api high level ipc mechanism file system abstraction memory management command driven application development drawing geometry management and yeah open look motif windows and mac the flip switch thanks jim grier grier world std com greg pasquariello grp unify com hobnobbing with the ancients unify corporation uunet unify grp
comp.windows.x	just this newsgroup dead gotten very few posts this group the last couple days recently added feed list just this group near death robert mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer
comp.windows.x	trouble compiling sunos nemo aguirre dia upm francisco ballesteros writes the problem occurs during the initial make world when gets compiling the standard clients can seem find some the libraries right now highly suspect the program which was updated for yip had the same problem the only fix found was link static some the clients btw used use sunos bernhard
comp.windows.x	xterm build problem solaris apr gmt dla waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host waii com doug continuing build problems got stuck here build xterm doug undefined first referenced doug symbol file doug index usr ucblib libtermcap termcap doug rindex usr ucblib libtermcap termcap doug fatal symbol referencing errors output written xterm actually the problem that you have build with library path unset well run path douglas acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker waii com voice
comp.windows.x	trouble compiling sunos article schneck physik muenchen schneck physik muenchen bernhard schneck writes nemo aguirre dia upm francisco ballesteros writes the problem occurs during the initial make world when gets compiling the standard clients can seem find some the libraries right now highly suspect the program which was updated for yip had the same problem the only fix found was link static some the clients btw used use sunos read fixes and the mit distribution this known problem just apply those fixes and set sunpost fcsld yes and osteenyversion mit config sun fix you are running sunos and you apply sun patch then you will need edit your site def and add this line the aftervendorcf section define sunpost fcsld yes fix you are running sunos change osteenyversion mit config sun have value fix brief notes what this patch fixes config make sunos fails unless tree previously built sean welch
comp.windows.x	title for xterm apr samba oit unc edu naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes hey guys work many stations and would like this name and current logname title xterm when open and machine name only when closed other words want host and logname appear title opened xterm and host when xterm closed how can thnsks advance serge serge gluttony astro unc edu almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for for your purpose put following into your login you using csh tcsh for you have modify term xterm then echo logname host host endif note stands for esc you can enter pressing ctrl and the esc same for means ctrl press ctrl and then ctrl the first sequence puts the string into the title bar the second the icon btw you can also put the current working directory the title bar you make alias for alias echo logname host cwd greetings thomas thomas wolfram thomas aeon berlin eantc berlin wolf prz berlin
comp.windows.x	pointer feature trying implement pointer feature xlib have multiple windows and all can take input and show output simultaneously all other displays want implement pointer feature would like get the pointer come all windows once choose pointer the menu and every one should able see can you give some hints how should proceed replies will greatly appreciated thank you prakash duvvuri odu edu
comp.windows.x	server multi screen from article apr eafs boeing com ten eafs boeing com timothy neto rainer sun eeam elin rainer hochreiter writes seen lot different terms which seem mean the same thing who can give exact definition what these terms mean multi screen multi headed multi display server zaphod mode there limit how many screens displays single server can handle articel read something about upper limit how the capability called want move the cursor from one screen display another how many clients may display server believe the limit would how much memory available your server allocated the server this all sounds suspiciously like company might have something with this background first megatek has series framebuffers designed accelerators for the most part these are designed for sun sbus and sun and other vendor vme systems that said megatek products support multi screen and multi display sigle workstation most our cards have keyboard mouse port which can used provide additional displays for example say you hade sparcstation with sbus expansion chassis you could put six frambuffers allowing total six screens the system you could then attach from keyboard mice allowing you mix and match any combination screens and displays you could have screen display screen displays screen displays screen display and screen display basically any combination because this megatek try very careful about the use the words multi screen and multi display they are quite different meaning and least have exact definitions the reason ramble like this the mention upper limit screens display happens there define the server that determines the most screens supported server include misc maxscreens released mit this released megatek this such the most screens supported single megatek display server someone construed this limitation sorry but clearly pointed out well neto this not the case just did here because nobody has ever asked for more course could say buy all you want support more rusty sanders megatek corp rgs megatek com ucsd hplabs sdd ames scubed uunet
comp.windows.x	creating application contexts multiple times the subject does not describe the problem having very well please read trying write function which creates xtappcontext and widget displays the widget for while then destroys everything and returns the problem that multiple calls this function cause variety problems including depending which calls make get rid things core dump badpixmap error widget not unmapped here simple program wrote show the problem include xlib include include pushb void bla xtappcontext app display dis xopendisplay int junk widget top xtappinitialize app test null junk null null null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget blaaa xmpushbuttonwidgetclass top xmnheight xmnwidth null xtrealizewidget top same xtappmainloop but with only xevents for int xevent event xtappnextevent app event xtdispatchevent event what should put here xtunrealizewidget top xtdestroywidget top xtdestroyapplicationcontext app xclosedisplay dis main for int bla note that rewrote xtappmainloop that given time this example after xevents the function will exit and return the main program with this example get the following error about this not consistent the call bla error failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter major opcode failed request creategc resource failed request serial number failed request current serial number output stream take out the xtunrealizewidget top line just dumps core the seconds call furthermore every time call xtappinitialize other than the time get warning initializing resource lists twice warning initializing translation manager twice finally question this what needs done order able call function which creates xtappcontext and widgets multiple times any help would greatly appreciated please respond via email dont usually have time read this group thanks very much davewood david rex wood davewood colorado edu university colorado boulder
comp.windows.x	compiling help like compile sony nws running news the distribution has support for this config and the release notes say has been tested the machine but also the release notes nothing from sony listed under the supported servers what supposed use for server then how can the supported but not the hardware there something the binaries that can used the server these may seem like silly questions but really confused mike hopper acs virginia edu will not raise taxes the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	compiling help here what think have figured out all need install the disitribution without the xserver like the sony file defines and all the new libraries utils etc will installed and old server from will still work this will allow run xview and have and running does the server interface remain the same with all changes made only the libs another question likely that since sun dropping support that the desktop utils like the file manager will made public would nice companies would make old code public for the benefit those with smaller budgets mike hopper acs virginia edu will not raise taxes the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	xterm cursor forgive this faq have checked the list but cant find have problem with the cursor within xterm mono not grayscale monitors the problem that when have character application that displays input fields reverse video the xterm text cursor gets lost the edge the input field the solution would appear set the xterm cursor line rather than block but how you this can find any means although various sources seem indicate can done when the xterm loses the input focus the cursor becomes outlined block this would also preferable but can seem force this the default either configuration motorola please reply email poss thank you steve weet european mis motorola cellular subscriber group beechgreen court chineham basingstoke hants england phone mail stevew chineham euro csg mot com fax mobile post steve weet european mis motorola cellular subscriber group beechgreen court chineham basingstoke hants england phone mail stevew chineham euro csg mot com fax mobile post
comp.windows.x	now available xvertext now available xvertext summary xvertext provides you with four functions draw strings any angle window previous versions were limited vertical text rotation still achieved using ximages but the notion rotating whole font first has been dropped what new added cache which keeps copy previously rotated strings thus speeding redraws where can get comp sources soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar now alan richardson you don have school maths physical sciences old wise univ sussex brighton england judas priest mppa sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex
comp.windows.x	waiting for specific event callback hello world want write application code like this some work now need some user input xmcreatedialog wait for user input input input more work else other work more work and other work are not callback functions but the application simply waits for the user answer the question how can code this motif application thanks very much advance greetings huub cwi box huub bakker huub cwi amsterdam the netherlands tel
comp.windows.x	desqview article aecl harrisp aecl writes use desqview and think great where really shines imho let unix users log into and run dos and windows applications with the display going their screens you need get desqview desqview suggested retail desqview other systems suggested retail you also must running supported network ftp softwares pctcp novell lan workplace for dos sun microsystems nfs beame and whiteside wollongong pathway tcpip microsoft lan manager you don have any this network stuff quarterdeck will give you copy novell tcpip transprot for dos with the network manager you can get more info sending email appropriately info qdeck com opinion you want have other people logging and running applications your you want have with megs ram also the xwindows software desqviewx really seems like tseng labs chipset based graphics card personally found that things ran better with scsi drive the than with esdi drives but that experience only good luck and best wishes phil what sort traffic generated with the calls curious find out the required bandwidth that link must have one machine running supporting multiple users clients and require adequate response time anyone have any ideas george patapis pan metron ariston lane cove email gpatapis cssc syd tansu com box sydney south fax nsw australia voice
comp.windows.x	and security technical conference had possibility join the annual technical conference january boston nevertheless interested information about the tutorials exspecially about tutorial security title survey and security tutorial admin title and the administrator does anybody know where can get information paper mail about these has anybody information about kerberos escpecially connection with display manager xdm thanks andrea winkler siemens nixdorf muenchen germany andrea winkler internet andrea winkler sto mchp sni sni sto otto hahn ring munich phone fax
comp.windows.x	just this newsgroup dead gotten very few posts this group the last couple days recently added feed list just this group near death seen from the mailing list side getting about the right amount traffic patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	svr binary dists was rfd create comp unix sys univel article rick digibd rick digibd digibd com rick richardson writes the other scary thing that ship libxcl with the functions how many other libxcl type libraries will shipped other vendors should trademark the name libxcl what some clown uses that name and only puts the troublesome functions does usl svr support run path solaris equivalent you can put the library package specific lib directory compile the app with run path defined and all should work besides say name libpackagexcl possible cheers ato ian dickinson nic handle this article dedicated vato csv warwick uknet warwick vato those who disapprove but dickinson csv warwick prmd admd continue university warwick computing services ian dickinson read
comp.windows.x	icon animation folks part self introduction been trying some simple icon animation sort like icondoit from mswindows changing your own applications icon fairly simple you have widget you can just xtsetvalues xtniconifypixmap whatever and you done alternately you can set window manager hints these methods don seem work with icons which your application doesn specifically own situation have change the icon random windows sitting there icon box question given window how you change the icon pixure working example would very much appreciated makes any difference using motif vms thanks scott
comp.windows.x	table widget causing trouble with xtquerygeometry contents problems with table widgets the following part program user interface for simulation system did work but refused cause the version did not know about the xptablewidgetclass used tablewidgetclass instead caught from the net times and xptablechildposition formerly xttblposition since compiling with the program causes zero width height error sparc stations the trouble shooter the computation the model init table table widget though its childs label and asciitext widgets exist xtquerygeometry returns prefered width and height zero thus the following asignment cannot perform anything else but set the width and height the newly created widget zero wonder xtpopup xtmanage child create zero width height errors dependent whether width and height the shell widget are set the resource file not question does anyone know why xtquerygeometry returns low prefered values when working table widgets perhaps what about happy someone able help germans are requested answer german siegfried kaiser email kaiser uniko uni koblenz the part interest graphischer neuaufbau des model init formulars storing the old width and height the viewport widget which the parent the troubling table widget before the viewport widget destroyed the destroying widgets before resizing them relict from age model init popped xtunmapwidget model init form view xtdestroywidget model init form view creating the subtree within the shell which the root the viewport widget xtsetarg args xtnfromvert model init title xtsetarg args xtnfromhoriz model init button view xtsetarg args xtnallowvert true xtsetarg args xtnforcebars true model init form view xtcreatewidget form view viewportwidgetclass model init form args model init table xtcreatewidget table xptablewidgetclass model init form view args create form widget does create and position table widget childs position them uses xptable childposition and xttblposition create form widget ptr model init obj model init table the crucial function call intended return the maximum height possible there isn sufficient space show the whole table widget then the viewport shall grow large possible but not beyond the border screen there enough space the window intended shrienk the smallest possible height xtquerygeometry model init table null pref according the algorithms idea the new value viewport widget height selected unfortunately pref height leads new height form view height pref height new height pref height else new height form view height setting the new values viewport widgets ancestors xtnametowidget model init form form view xtresizewidget width new height pref border width xtresizewidget model init form view width new height pref border width model init popped case the shell which contains model init form view and model init table allready exists has resized too xtsetarg args xtnwidth shell width xtsetarg args xtnheight shell height xtsetarg args xtnborderwidth shell xtgetvalues model init shell args xtresizewidget model init shell shell width shell height height new height shell end xtsetarg args xtnwidth width xtsetarg args xtnborderwidth xtgetvalues model init button view args xtresizewidget model init button view width new height xtresizewidget vert bar sbar width sbar resize inits there the shell height set within the resource file the program terminates within the first xtmanagechild its second pass through the observed function the first pass succeeds xtmanagechild model init form view xtmanagechild model init table model init popped case the shell isn popped has done there value set the shell height within the resource file the program terminates here xtpopup model init shell xtgrabnone model init pop flag true set model init attributes end get actual init ptr actual load form ptr actual someone suspects the creation table widget contents causes all the trouble there are the sources create form create form widget ptr table obj ptr widget table ptr linear list containing attributes and para meters the model and additionally the correspon ding widgets arg args int row col obj ptr obj ident ptr ident initialization the local variables ptr obj ptr col row schleife ueber die objekte bzw das pseudo objekt fuer die parameter loop through the list objects and pseudo objects every object occuring the model has zero more attributes and some parameters which can shared several objects because locality the attributes one object are listed second linear list type ident whereas the parameters which can belong any ject are put together pseudo object thus the program loops through the list objects and pseudo objects and for each object through the list its attributes resp parameters while ptr obj obj null each object and pseudo object represented label widget xtsetarg args xtnlabel ptr obj name ptr obj label xtcreatemanagedwidget object labelwidgetclass table args xptablechildposition ptr obj label col row col row ptr ident ptr obj ident schleife ueber die objekt attribute bzw parameter while ptr ident ident null each attribute and parameter represented label and has corresponding asciitext widget which initialized xtsetarg args xtnlabel ptr ident name ptr ident label xtcreatemanagedwidget ident labelwidgetclass table args xptablechildposition ptr ident label col row col xtsetarg args xtnlength row length xtsetarg args xtnstring ptr ident text xtsetarg args xtnedittype xawtextedit xtsetarg args xtnwrap xawtextwrapword xtsetarg args xtnresize xawtextresizeheight xtsetarg args xtnusestringinplace true ptr ident text xtcreatemanagedwidget text asciitextwidgetclass table args xptablechildposition ptr ident text col row col row get next ident ptr ident end while col get next obj ptr obj end while end create form widget far the problem detail
comp.windows.x	motif maling list the motif mailing list will now located lobo gsfc nasa gov you would like added deleted from this list please send mail motif request lobo gsfc nasa gov mail the list send mail motif lobo gsfc nasa gov brian brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan
comp.windows.x	xcopyplane question article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually must also ask the faq most popular reason why graphics don show you wait for expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have idle app with realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics button widget when pressed will cause new item drawn the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea equiv directly instead should register the existence the new item memory structure and let the expose event handler take care rendering the image because that time guaranteed that the window mapped the problem course that expose event generated the window visible and mapped you know the best way tickle window that the expose event handler will invoked draw this new item
comp.windows.x	xwindows always opaque hess swt informatik uni hamburg writes wonder possible for parent window paint over the area its childs not then how could possible implement rubberband across multiple xwindows select the objects that are displayed one each window use with the subwindow mode attribute set includeinferiors the default clipbychildren however beware any the children are different depth the parent the semantics this are undefined the protocol gerard driscoll gerard odriscoll dps pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	sgihbtn sierra com xlib for windows not xserver think you may find that either quarterdeck deskview hummingbird exceed provide xlib for dos perhaps they also have xlib for windows possibility yes exceed has windows version have ported some games like tetris works fine est vrai serait bien procurer car moment portage suis train perdre mon temps avec toolkit marc bassini marc ccv marc cnam cnam computers communications visions haussmann paris france phone fax
comp.windows.x	how you find window given its name want the equivalent xwininfo name via call set calls xlib need map windows name its probably easy but only been programming for little while looked the reilly books and didn find and also checked the faq and couldn find email one the following addresses and post response seems reasonable guy guy babineau virginia edu smarine uucp glb sperry marine inc compuserve com
comp.windows.x	waiting for specific event callback article charon cwi huub cwi huub bakker writes deleted plain motify using dialog line like this simply isn done you need set callbacks from the buttons widgets your dialog and let the callback routines the work the callbacks you can then carry the flow logic xview from sun actually supports this very neatly with notify box which can return status line does actualy ease coding but goes against the event driven style application summary redesign required delta hedging long option position also generates short gamma exposure and any return generated from delta hedging options can thought compensation for assuming gamma risk radioactive investment management whew
comp.windows.x	circular motif widgets you willing little work you can make drawnbuttons what you want more less one colleagues here crd has done just that our internal lymb system have matrix transform class that makes easy compute series dial positions from single set vectors each set vectors then drawn into pixmap clicking the button advances the knob state and changes the next pixmap the sequence using drawnbuttons obviously still constrains you taking rectangular portion the parent widget but that normally not big shortcoming you can make things look circular enough skip montanaro crd com why can this easy after learning about dlopen
comp.windows.x	creating bit windows bit display how stolk fwi uva writes problem occurs when try create window with visual that different from the visual the parent which uses the default visual which you got set border pixel your window attributes the default copyfromparent which gives the badmatch this unsigned long valuemask border width non zero you better alloc colour from cmap rather than use any old pixel value also use valuemask makes the code more obvious attr colormap cmap attr border pixel valuemask cwcolormap cwborderpixel win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height border width see comment below depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual valuemask attr note border width your code looked like this win xcreatewindow dpy defaultrootwindow dpy width height copyfromparent border width depth inputoutput class vinfo visual visual cwcolormap attr border width set copyfromparent works but doesn make sense border width should unsigned int you get away with because copyfromparent define zero happened defined you get very interesting looking window gerard driscoll gerard odriscoll dps pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	xvideo information the product you mention xvideo from parallax graphics santa clara california you can read our product review the jan feb issue the journal that issues focuses multimedia and which there are also number other useful items including article video window fax our new york office for information obtaining back issues steve steven mikes editor the journal eastbrook martinsville office fax serving the window system community
comp.windows.x	xlib for windows not xserver another company congruent corporation new york city has also ported xlib and motif over windows which provides full client development for applications environment you are porting interviews over windows thought interviews was toolkit with classes that how can built xlib unless the classes are calling xlib functions steve steven mikes editor the journal eastbrook martinsville office fax serving the window system community
comp.windows.x	need shading program example anyone know about any shading program based xlib the public domain need example about how allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help howard
comp.windows.x	system file tmp article jjig doy acsu buffalo edu lusardi buffalo edu christopher lusardi writes what the directory unix for tmp when start created the system this directory wasn created root and contains empty file that owned the unix domain socket local connection your xserver try brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	title for xterm article aeon berlin thomas aeon berlin thomas wolfram writes hey guys work many stations and would like this name and current logname title xterm when open and machine name only when closed other words want host and logname appear title opened xterm and host when xterm closed how can almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for for your purpose put following into your login you using csh tcsh for you have modify term xterm then echo logname host host endif this not feature the window manager but xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know there are compatible sequences for this and what they are would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may csi sequence exists too this must work dxterm and ansi compatible may not work xterms brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	server problems hello trying get running and ran into the following error message when trying start the xserver setting tcp dontlinger option not supported protocol version windows system protocol version revision vendor release fatal server error screens found giving xinit software cased connection abort errno unable connect xserver does anyone know what this error means has anyone experienced this problem help will much appreciated thanks advance please send replies christy alex christy
comp.windows.x	solution why need xrdb when xdefaults unchanged the short answer seems don the particular package wscrawl seems reset all its defaults any them are missing from the xdefaults file once added the missing ones the xdefaults file the problem goes away kevin kevin weinrich computer sciences corp kbw helios ath epa gov
comp.windows.x	icon box dear xperts want place specific group icons icon box and have other icons appear outside the box does anyone know there way can this using and motif thanks dbohdal jaguar ess harris com
comp.windows.x	what inexpensive monochrome station can you recommend can someone recommend inexpensive monochrome station that not software emulation based please tell manufacturer model price and any other significant specs thanks gregg weber let open and bright like the sky gregg netcom com without taking sides with clouds concepts kun mkhyen klong chen
comp.windows.x	xtranslatecoord problem seems like xtranslatecoord doesn work the way expecting right after performs xmovewindow want know the absolute window position with respect the root window get this info xtranslatecoordinates but the abs and abs aren right does anybody know way find out this information thanks please mail hsteve carina unm edu possible steve hsteve hydra unm edu hsteve carina unm edu just say vms
comp.windows.x	dec pixmap size article igd fhg haase igd fhg helmut haase goebel writes try create pixmap larger than the size screen the program will terminate displaying the message error badalloc insufficient resources many servers supporting graphics accelerators not allow the creation pixmaps exeeding the size the screen one workaround create several smaller pixmaps and add the results ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	circular motif widgets article bjg acsc com dev hollywood acsc com writes will there any support for round circular widgets motif next release love have circular knob widget which could used instead slider how much support you need don think there anything that prohibits you from implementing such widget though you will have write your own versions the functions that draw the shadow and traversal highlighting ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	desqview article qtk picasso cssc syd tansu com gpatapis boyd tansu com writes article aecl harrisp aecl writes use desqview and think great where really shines imho let unix users log into and run dos and windows applications with the display going their screens you need get desqview desqview suggested retail desqview other systems suggested retail you also must running supported network ftp softwares pctcp novell lan workplace for dos sun microsystems nfs beame and whiteside wollongong pathway tcpip microsoft lan manager you don have any this network stuff quarterdeck will give you copy novell tcpip transprot for dos with the network manager you can get more info sending email appropriately info qdeck com actually info qdeck com our customer service department you have technical questions you can write support qdeck com opinion you want have other people logging and running applications your you want have with megs ram also the xwindows software desqviewx really seems like tseng labs chipset based graphics card personally found that things ran better with scsi drive the than with esdi drives but that experience only what sort traffic generated with the calls curious find out the required bandwidth that link must have one machine running supporting multiple users clients and require adequate response time anyone have any ideas expect the limiting factor will your server machine not the network itself give you real world example here quarterdeck have roughly people using dvx talk bunch unix boxes novell file servers and each other not too much load our ethernet with maybe concentrators you have people each segment you had badly loaded net the apps you wanted run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would the machine itself say you have with plenty ram and fast hard disk and network card you have people running programs off you going see some slowdowns because you now effectively mhz course dvx will attempt see tasks are idle and make sure they give their time slice but you have working programs running you know having said that you can tweak the programs being run adding calls give time slices when idle and that sort thing you could probably run people given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth all really depends what the programs are doing you going see slowdown from bandwidth lot sooner your apps are all doing network things also quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve quarterdeck fax from touch tone phone for technotes demand
comp.windows.x	xview slider netters using sliders xview apps usually with editable numeric field but seem have control over the length this field some apps appears long enough keep several characters some cannot keep even the maximum value set panel max value understand panel value display length which controls number characters displayed text items doesn work the case slider despite the fact that panel contains the following bit panel multiline text item panel numeric text item panel slider item and panel text item attributes panel notify level panel attr attr enum panel value display length panel attr attr int which gives hint that this attribute can used for sliders but setting this attribute gives nothing and get ting this attribute gives warning bad attribute and return value can someone share his experience managing sliders xview with and clear this problem any help very much appreciated yuri yuri phy
comp.windows.x	mysterious beeping article crossposted from windows author was andy defaria posted mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes application beep whenever intercept keystroke and change meaning the intent this code allow date fields the following special keys insert today date bump day one bump day down one hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps shouldn using xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any the special keys are hit why the idea this code interpret these keys having the special meaning implied the code would like get rid the beeping but far can tell not doing the beep and lose understanding who and why the beeping occuring include intrinsic include include rowcolumn include mainw include text widget toplevel widget mainwindow widget mainpane widget datefield xtappcontext application void marktoday widget date char todaysdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue todaysdate null marktoday void marktomorrow widget date char tomorrowsdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue tomorrowsdate null marktomorrow void markyesterday widget date char yesterdaysdate xtvasetvalues date xmnvalue yesterdaysdate null markyesterday void datekeys widget callingwidget widget date xmtextverifyptr callbackdata capture the keys can change their behaviour found set doit false won interpret the keystroke switch callbackdata text ptr case case marktoday date callbackdata doit false return case case markyesterday date callbackdata doit false return case case marktomorrow date callbackdata doit false return default return switch datekeys void main cardinal argc char argv initialize toplevel xtvaappinitialize application application null argc argv null null create the toolface mainwindow xtvacreatemanagedwidget mainwindow xmmainwindowwidgetclass toplevel null create mainwindow mainpane xtvacreatemanagedwidget mainpane xmrowcolumnwidgetclass mainwindow null create small text area datefield xtvacreatemanagedwidget datefield xmtextwidgetclass mainpane xmntopattachment xmattach form xmnrightattachment xmattach form xmncolumns null set modifyverifycallback the datekeys callback xtaddcallback datefield xmnmodifyverifycallback xtcallbackproc datekeys xtpointer datefield realize the toplevel xtrealizewidget toplevel into the xtmainloop xtappmainloop application main swear life and the love that will andrew defaria never live for the sake another man nor ask hewlett packard another man live for mine california language labs john galt defaria cup com swear life and the love that will andrew defaria never live for the sake another man nor ask hewlett packard another man live for mine california language labs john galt defaria cup com
comp.windows.x	windows motif gui design differences was future unix yoo mobydick leis bellcore com writes another important difference that msw doesn have any window that handle sophisticated geometry management like xmform this advantage windows used think was big advantage for but not all sure anymore david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer temp not use mail and object guru tempory office jet propulsion lab oak grove drive pasadena what the earliest possible date you can prove won done tom demarco
comp.windows.x	looking for david smyth zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author wcl the current care taker his the only name found the dist tree have tried mail him david smyth mchp sni but the mail bounced back here david smyth david jpl devvax jpl nasa gov senior software engineer temp not use mail and object guru tempory office jet propulsion lab oak grove drive pasadena what the earliest possible date you can prove won done tom demarco
comp.windows.x	macro recorder player for there aything available for similar quickeys for the macintosh something that will allow store and playback sequences keystrokes menu selections and mouse actions directing them towards another application could someone send information its availability and not how hard think might send input other applications and hopefully deal with their responses appropriately application going take few seconds process probably have wait for complete before sending another command thanks david
comp.windows.x	monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events posting the question that just doesn seem get answered suppose you have idle app with realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics button widget when pressed will cause new item drawn the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea equiv directly instead should register the existence the new item memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events window manager driven exposures take care rendering the new image using expose event handler proper way this because the time the handler called the xlib window guaranteed mapped the problem course that expose event generated the window already visible and mapped what need somehow tickle the window that the expose handler hit with arguments that will enable render just the part the window that contains the new item what the best way tickle window produce this behavior
comp.windows.x	seeking user experience with based test tools does anyone have any experience using xrunner capbak prevuex automated test tool for please email directly with opinions both positive and negative ann freeman siemens industrial automation inc johnson city aff tijc uunet net
comp.windows.x	drawing lines inverse xor trying write some code that lets draw lines and rubber band boxes motif running bit display for which created colormap and using almost all the colors want draw the lines drawing area widget widget which displaying bitmap using xputimage doesn matter the lines draw interactively stay around when the window refreshed currently draw interactively begin with drawindex colortable index reserve for the foreground default color the color index for the background image palette colors drawindex red palette colors default color red palette colors drawindex green palette colors default color green palette colors drawindex blue palette colors default color blue xstorecolors mydisplay cmap palette colors drawindex xflush mydisplay xsetfunction mydisplay gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay drawindex then draw xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea xflush mydisplay and when all done return things normal xsetfunction mydisplay gxcopy what like happen for the lines draw the inverse whatever drawing over instead what happens get white lines the lines are over white background nothing shows the lines are over black area nothing shows very strange but the gxxor function seems right since rubber banding box erases and redraws itself correctly not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what doing wrong david
comp.windows.x	monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes posting the question that just doesn seem get answered how can resist questions that says something like this the problem course that expose event generated the window already visible and mapped what need somehow tickle the window that the expose handler hit with arguments that will enable render just the part the window that contains the new item what the best way tickle window produce this behavior your expose event handler truly intelligent about exposed rectangle information then you can use xcleararea generate expose event assuming that your background pixel not none for the enclosing rectangle your new item this still not great since any other items contained within that rectangle will still unnecessarily redrawn your expose event handler simply redraws everything you doing much more work than just drawing the new item top the existing scene mike yang silicon graphics inc mikey sgi com
comp.windows.x	how put rpc motif environment has anybody implements rpc server the xwindows sun xview there notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when detects incoming request wonder there similar function motif that perform the same function any help appreciated nui chan nchan ctr columbia edu
comp.windows.x	mix with xlib mwm developing application that will include graphics window some sort with moving symbols among other things pure application could implemented with motif widgets one which would xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but would like take advantage the graphics library available our ibm sgi believe possible mix and one application program can use subroutines xmdrawingarea window opened with xopenwindow have never used before but the doc winopen says that the first time winopen called opens connection the server also most the calls not require display unlike most calls from this initial information appears that and cannot mixed easily this true does pex graphigs have the same functionality environment aixwindows motif available aix sys ibm thanks advance jay graham jade simulations international corp colonnade road suite nepean ontario canada graham ottawa jade com
comp.windows.x	drawing abstract graph looking for software draw graph want just give list nodes and edges between the nodes and have the program come with some reasonable positioning thanks advance dan aronson dan think com thinking machines corporation
comp.windows.x	monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events excerpts from netnews comp windows apr monthly question about xcop buzz moschetti bear com button widget when pressed will cause new item drawn the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea equiv directly instead should register the existence the new item memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events window manager driven exposures take care rendering the new image hmmm clearly depends your programming model not all forbidden draw outside the context expose event certainly any internal data structures should maintained such that the visual appearance would maintained properly whenever expose event happens generated this doesn preclude drawing immediately after updating the datastructures though rob
comp.windows.x	wanted critiques multi windowing system toolkits any pointers articles personal opinions critiquing user interface toolkits that operate across many windowing systems windows macintosh you know open interface xvt aspect you reply with your opinion please briefly state your choice and short discussion why steve maher maher outland gsfc nasa gov steve maher voice flight dynamics division maher kong gsfc nasa gov nasa goddard space flight center
comp.windows.x	how put rpc motif environment article apr sol ctr columbia edu nchan nova ctr columbia edu nui chan writes has anybody implements rpc server the xwindows sun xview there notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when detects incoming request wonder there similar function motif that perform the same function been using the xrpc package for about year now believe got from export ian hogg ianhogg umn edu
comp.windows.x	colormap question experts kind new the following question strange trying modify the contents the colormap but failed without reason using the following piece code toplevel xtinitialize argv testcolor null argc argv dpy xtdisplay toplevel scr defaultscreen dpy def colormap defaultcolormap dpy scr xalloccolorcells dpy def colormap true null cells color pixel cells color red color green color blue color flags dored dogreen doblue xstorecolor dpy def colormap color printf try allocate the color color pixel color red color green color blue xquerycolor dpy def colormap color printf after allocate the color color pixel color red color green color blue else printf error couldn allocate color cells running output try allocate the color after allocate the color after xstorecolor xquerycolor just returned the original value failure error displayed but the contents colormap are obvious unchanged also tried draw line using the colors but turned out the unmodified colors what problem how modify the contents the colormap any help information will appreciated please send mail yang umass edu william email yang umass edu the way the following the environment using output xdpyinfo shows the default visual pseudocolor version number vendor string decwindows digitalequipmentcorporation uws vendor release number maximum request size longwords bytes motion buffer size bitmap unit bit order padding lsbfirst image byte order lsbfirst number supported pixmap formats supported pixmap formats depth bits per pixel scanline pad depth bits per pixel scanline pad keycode range minimum maximum number extensions adobe dps extension dpsextension shape mit shm multi buffering xinputextension mit sundry nonstandard dec xtrap default screen number number screens screen dimensions pixels millimeters resolution dots per inch depths root window depth root window planes number colormaps minimum maximum default colormap default number colormap cells preallocated pixels black white options backing store yes save unders yes current input event mask keypressmask buttonpressmask buttonreleasemask enterwindowmask substructureredirectmask propertychangemask colormapchangemask number visuals default visual visual visual class pseudocolor depth planes size colormap entries red green blue masks significant bits color specification bits visual visual class grayscale depth planes size colormap entries red green blue masks significant bits color specification bits visual visual class staticgray depth planes size colormap entries red green blue masks significant bits color specification bits visual visual class staticcolor depth planes size colormap entries red green blue masks significant bits color specification bits visual visual class truecolor depth planes size colormap entries red green blue masks significant bits color specification bits number mono multibuffer types visual max buffers depth visual max buffers depth visual max buffers depth visual max buffers depth visual max buffers depth number stereo multibuffer types
comp.windows.x	macx color problem article kul cso uiuc edu kerr cso uiuc edu stan kerr writes have peculiar color problem with macx apple macintosh server like know others have seen the same problem happened with the current version and with version when some types client windows are displayed parts the windows are the wrong color the window moved slightly forcing the server repaint repainted the correct colors doesn happen for xterm windows but has happened for graphic windows and with some motif clients expect what going here that your colormap full and when the new application starts cannot add the colors that needs the colormap therefore has pick and choose from the existing colors this makes look ugly until window gets priority then macx changes the colormap that the selected app getting the exact colors wanted but now other applications are having make with colormap this problem with all color servers least all color xservers have seen when the demands the applications exceed the size the colormap solution usually avoid colormap greedy apps and display applications where color just icing the cake monochrome mode rather than color this option for the application doug shaker voice fax email dshaker qualix com mail qualix group norfolk san mateo qualix maintains mailserver with information files and demo versions products you would like more information the mailserver send email qfacts qualix com uunet qualix qfacts the email should take the following form begin send help send index end name address phone
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window trying figure out how make window manager place the window where the create window command tells regardless what may think right application has reason know better don want set the override redirect because want all the embellishments that the window manager gives just want the accept choice location tried twm tvtwm and mwm and they are all uncooperative thanks ethan
comp.windows.x	mysterious beeping article qtkk cup com defaria cup com andy defaria writes article crossposted from windows author was andy defaria posted mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes application beep whenever intercept keystroke and change meaning the intent this code allow date fields the following special keys insert today date bump day one bump day down one hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps shouldn using xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any the special keys are hit why the idea this code interpret these keys having the special meaning implied the code would like get rid the beeping but far can tell not doing the beep and lose understanding who and why the beeping occuring code deleted from the xmtextfield man page during discussion resources xmnverifybell specifies whether bell will sound when action reversed during verification callback you are setting doit false the callback and text field beeping should turn off this behavior set this boolean resource false tom mcfarland tommc com
comp.windows.x	monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events posting the question that just doesn seem get answered suppose you have idle app with realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics button widget when pressed will cause new item drawn the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea equiv directly instead should register the existence the new item memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events window manager driven exposures take care rendering the new image using expose event handler proper way this because the time the handler called the xlib window guaranteed mapped the problem course that expose event generated the window already visible and mapped what need somehow tickle the window that the expose handler hit with arguments that will enable render just the part the window that contains the new item what the best way tickle window produce this behavior understand your problem correctly you want have way send exposures your manager widget when your app specific code draws xlib graphics the window sounds like you might want send exposure using xsendevent and specifying region you know the region you need send the exposure generally you have the bounding rectangle the objects you can use xcreateregion create region xunionrectwithregion add the new object polygons the region and then either use the region clip your for the redraw use xrectinregion test which your other objects need redrawn keeping mind that the stacking order overlapping objects affects how they look hope helps brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan
comp.windows.x	ask the ftp address kerberos version draft rfc 
comp.windows.x	how find appcontext there call give application context fixing motif program and trying use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument the app context what call can use give this value thanks todd greene masc ucssun sdsu edu
comp.windows.x	xcopyplane question article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti write article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually must also ask the faq most popular reason why graphics don show you wait for expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have idle app with realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics button widget when pressed will cause new item drawn the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea equiv directly instead should register the existence the new item memory structure and let the expose event handler take care rendering the image because that time guaranteed that the window mapped the problem course that expose event generated the window visible and mapped you know the best way tickle window that the expose event handler will invoked draw this new item what does this have with original question previously stated that did xcopyarea the depth pixmap the screen just make sure that image had data and did this not problem with expose events has with xcopyplane not working does anyone have code fragment they could send demonstrating that xcopyplane works this would very helpful thanks nancie marin net nancie neko css gov ensco inc mail pineda melbourne fax
comp.windows.x	wcl for solaris there version wcl that has been ported solaris including ansi had numerous problems trying compile wcl under solaris and the functions not have prototypes have wcl from the sun user group cds please email answers not this list tom tulinsky capital management sciences west los angeles manually address answers zuma tom netcomsv netcom com
comp.windows.x	xwininfo want the equivalent xwininfo name via call set calls xlib need map windows name its probably easy but only been programming for little while you have the source code simply look mit clients xwininfo xwininfo and you will find out exactly how adrian nye reilly and associates
comp.windows.x	none working problem scheduling classroom and will like know you have some software papers articles about you have something relate please let know thanks lorenza illanes
comp.windows.x	xcopyplane question article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually must also ask the faq most popular reason why graphics don show you wait for expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have idle app with realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics button widget when pressed will cause new item drawn the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea equiv directly instead should register the existence the new item memory structure and let the expose event handler take care rendering the image because that time guaranteed that the window mapped the problem course that expose event generated the window visible and mapped you know the best way tickle window that the expose event handler will invoked draw this new item specifically made the above comment assuming that perhaps the code fragment came from simple open draw quit client per your question why not have the button handler add the object and then call the window redraw whatever directly although depending how the overall application structured there may problem with rendering the object directly response the button press ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara
comp.windows.x	mwm title drag crashes server sigpipe environment mach arch sparc sun ipx sunos patchlevel motif bring server using startx and usr bin xsun the following sequence actions crashes the server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion server lost xinit xsun start mwm start client with dpi dpi font move the window dragging the title bar the server dumps core due sigpipe one the two messages printed connection server lost connection broken errno believe the first reported client and the second the server itself next ran xdm debug level after the same set actions xdm reports select returns server for terminated unexpectedly status note the problem doesn occur with other window managers twm olwm have not set library path not running font server start the client with fixed width font not see this problem font path usr lib fonts misc usr lib fonts speedo usr lib fonts dpi usr lib fonts dpi did mkfontdir usr lib fonts dpi usr lib fonts dpi usr lib fonts pex usr lib fonts speedo and usr lib fonts misc this problem seems occur only ipx machines not see this problem ipc workstations questions what the hell goin what does status mean the server greatly appreciate any hints the cause the problem ramakrishnan dept mcbryde hall vatech
comp.windows.x	xlock found oddity with our sgi indigo mips chip when xlock nolock running and working remotely batch mode the runtime programs timed using clock the code itself slower than xlock not running other processes seem affect runtimes yet this very consistent any explanations real imagined thanx dale frostedflakes llnl gov
comp.windows.x	intrinsics slow popups help running some sample problems from reilly volume intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and example page creating pop dialog box the application creates window with button quit and press the button press pops dialog box the strange feature this program that always pops the dialog box much faster the first time try pop time time much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs why get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from time onwards anyone can give some ideas how program popups that each time they popup reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley
comp.windows.x	how put rpc motif environment article news cis umn edu ianhogg milli umn edu ian hogg writes article apr sol ctr columbia edu nchan nova ctr columbia edu nui chan writes has anybody implements rpc server the xwindows sun xview there notify enable rpc svc call that automatically executes the rpc processes when detects incoming request wonder there similar function motif that perform the same function been using the xrpc package for about year now believe got from export glad hear that working for you couldn find export however simon leinen simon liasun epfl has added imakefile and athena version and made available for ftp the file liasun epfl pub contrib xrpc tar note the suffix you need gnu gzip also liasun pub gnu uncompress this doesn work send note and happy mail you copy but you probably won get until the start may holidays tomorrow martin janzen janzen mprgate mpr mpr teltech ltd nelson way burnaby canada are there any dublin folks that want for pint guinness say mulligan
comp.windows.x	drawing lines inverse xor trying write some code that lets draw lines and rubber band boxes motif running bit display for which created colormap and using almost all the colors want draw the lines drawing area widget widget which displaying bitmap using xputimage doesn matter the lines draw interactively stay around when the window refreshed currently draw interactively begin with drawindex colortable index reserve for the foreground default color the color index for the background image palette colors drawindex red palette colors default color red palette colors drawindex green palette colors default color green palette colors drawindex blue palette colors default color blue xstorecolors mydisplay cmap palette colors drawindex xflush mydisplay xsetfunction mydisplay gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay drawindex then draw xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea xflush mydisplay and when all done return things normal xsetfunction mydisplay gxcopy what like happen for the lines draw the inverse whatever drawing over instead what happens get white lines the lines are over white background nothing shows the lines are over black area nothing shows very strange but the gxxor function seems right since rubber banding box erases and redraws itself correctly not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what doing wrong believe for this work color display you must set the foreground the foreground background patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	how cause timeout have problem where athena strip chart widget not calling get value function pretty sure this happening because not using xtappmainloop but dealing with events via sockets anyway want cause timeout that the strip chart widget will call their get value callback someone knows another fast way around this any way for that matter let know cannot don think call the xtngetvalue callback myself because don have the value for the third parameter the get value proc xtpointer call data other words want force strip chart widget update itself any ideas anyone christopher bailey internet baileyc dendrite colorado edu university colorado boulder compuserve ride fast take chances
comp.windows.x	transparent widgets how need write application which does annotation notes existing documents the annotation could done several times different people the idea something like having several acetate transparencies stacked top each other that the user can see through all them seen something like this being done the oclock client could someone please tell how thank you very much
comp.windows.x	multi screen apps and window managers pelkey phone battelle pacific northwest labs fax mail stop email pelkey pnl gov box richland also interested your questions you get any answers via email and not via repost please let know thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr wien austria europe mail rainer elin
comp.windows.x	how find appcontext there call give application context fixing motif program and trying use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument the app context what call can use give this value use xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext retreive the application context patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	device driver for bird has anyone written device driver use the ascension bird with xwindows suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute systems science tel national university singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus singapore
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window article hfz columbia edu ethan solomita writes trying figure out how make window manager place the window where the create window command tells regardless what may think right application has reason know better don want set the override redirect because want all the embellishments that the window manager gives just want the accept choice location window xcreatewindow xsettransientforhint display window window xmapwindow this probably cheating and some window managers might still refuse give border and all that other stuff but usually works
comp.windows.x	devguide with motif solaris ease motif burden developed number applications using devguide and found very useful tool been impressed with the level integration affords using the connection editor love the general ease use talked with tali aben sun today about devguide motif she was very helpful provided some input what like see the next version devguide tali was very enthusiatic about our comments mentioned was going post this email message and she offered receive additional comments from the net what devguide should evolve into send your comments wish list raving about devguide tali aben sun com pretty cool example company that cares what want more this and computers may have future frankly like the idea that will offer some migration capability doe domf through integrated tooltalk capability pointed out march sunexpert magazine technology works can crankout the interfaces with devguide price outstanding
comp.windows.x	running dxterm onto apollo from dec help trying run dxterm decs xterm decstation ultrix motif with the display variable set apollo domain motif get these errors appearing the decstation dxterm toolkit warning cannot convert string key apchardel type virtualbinding toolkit warning cannot convert string key apcopy type virtualbinding toolkit warning cannot convert string key apcut type virtualbinding toolkit warning cannot convert string key appaste type virtualbinding toolkit warning cannot convert string key apupbox type virtualbinding toolkit warning cannot convert string key apdownbox type virtualbinding toolkit warning cannot convert string key aprightbar type virtualbinding toolkit warning cannot convert string key apleftbar type virtualbinding segmentation fault any ideas motif problem are the dec and apollo versions motif incompatible something with xkeysymdb xterms run fine dec displaying apollo arggh need run dxterm because the package are using the dec oracle case uses dxterm default and have lab apollo workstations would like run oracle from andrew alf leahy alf nepean uws edu andrew alf leahy phone irc pepsi alf uni western sydney nepean remote email alf nepean uws edu sydney australia local email alf
comp.windows.x	xalloccolor fails return nearest match posted for friend okay looked through the faqs and didn see this but know its come before xalloccolor supposed the following order try find exact match read only color cell within hardware limits try allocate read only colorcell and set match and when all else fails return the colorcell with the best match from the read only colors already allocated the colormap this sounds good theory doesn seem work this way though there exact match already the colormap and unallocated cells then xalloccolor fails even when has already allocated several other cells already and there are dozens read only cells already the colormap this bug feature misunderstanding part any help appreciated noel ngorelic speclab usgs gov
comp.windows.x	xlib for windows not xserver article apr topgun smikes topgun steven mikes writes another company congruent corporation new york city has also ported xlib and motif over windows which provides full client development for applications environment could someone please send the postal and email address congruent corporation and any competitors they may have thank you snail lsl washing one hands the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means side with the powerful not neutral quote freire poster oxfam
comp.windows.x	xcopyplane question article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes per your question why not have the button handler add the object and then call the window redraw whatever directly although depending this design will work but don think can take easily take advantage expose event redraw optimization that the whole window will redrawn not just the area with the new item replying here because your mailer didn agree with the return address whaley sigma kpc com
comp.windows.x	problem with libararies have been trying compile some source code for mpeg animation viewer for windows got the code from ftp site have modified the makefile they instructed errors there what happens that get the following message when everything going linked util video parseblock motionvector decoders fast hybrid hybriderr gdith gray mono main jrevdct bit util ordered ordered ordered lib libx lib libxext mpeg play undefined first referenced symbol file getnetpath lib libx alloc lib libx unbind lib libx open lib libx rcvdis lib libx netdir free lib libx error lib libx netdir getbyname lib libx getnetconfigent lib libx look lib libx errno lib libx close lib libx netdir getbyaddr lib libx listen lib libx rcv lib libx setnetpath lib libx bind lib libx connect lib libx accept lib libx perror lib libx inet addr lib libx mpeg play fatal error symbol referencing errors output written mpeg play error code make fatal error does anyone know where these missing functions are located you can you help with posted before one the other unix groups tried their suggestions but always get this error you have know using unix system the machines here are the terminals want use are separate and just called terminals and they seem dedicated that not sure what they really are since one first times out with this windows gidget that first time programming for speak use them alot just for the graphics things you can help mail soon gerard
comp.windows.x	intrinsic mailing list don get newsfeed was wondering whether there was such thing mailing list other than xpert expo lcs mit edu would appreciate any info this related mailing lists thanks advance leon leon thrane telephone dimatrix aps fax lyngby hovedgade mail leon dimatrix lyngby denmark uunet dimatrix leon
comp.windows.x	intrinsics slow popups article minster york cjhs minster york writes the application creates window with button quit and press the button press pops dialog box the strange feature this program that always pops the dialog box much faster the first time try pop time time much slower the shell waiting for the window manager respond its positioning request the window manager not responding because thinks the window already the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk unclear all information greatly received bryan
comp.windows.x	xdm decnet does xdm work with decnet have ultrix machine running both tcp and decnet have number terminals hanging off the ultrix host also running tcp and decnet presently using xdm for the login procedure the terminals using tcp since xdm basically just windows client shouldn able run xdm the decnet protocol tower well first inclination that xdm not your typical client making tcp specific socket calls this case the answer would you can not run xdm over decnet this right not any feedback appreciated thanks
comp.windows.x	compiling sun article qfe qzz andrew cmu edu wilson swee andrew cmu edu writes have piece code that compiles fine pmax pmax mach well sun mach but whenever compiles sun gives undefined errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that linked are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext the makefile generated off imake template can anyone give pointers what missing out compile sun well the first are easy you need the math library try adding after don know that the whole problem but start daniel mccoy space net inc nasa mail code tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	keyboard map for type keyboard under does anyone have keyboard map for sun type keyboard for use under thanks nigel nigel ellis artificial intelligence group ellis durham computer science university durham phne durham england fax
comp.windows.x	top motif applications hello everybody searching for business information motif applications create top most used wordprocessors spreadsheets drawing programs schedulers and fax programs etc please mail all your information references will summaries the results this media thank you advance anton ruiter digital equipment corporation workgroup products wgp objectworks obw ing anton ruiter mba software product manager post office box apeldoorn the netherlands oude apeldoornseweg apeldoorn the netherlands mail hlde ruiter dtn location apd internet aruit idca tds philips uucp mcsun philapd aruit phone business phone private fax
comp.windows.x	gcc and building the widget set linux currently attempting get copy the widget set compiled under linux sls release with kernel and running into some problems actually seems that this more gcc question because got compile without trouble using basically there are number functions with prototypes set let say compositep for instance the composite widget insert child procedure set with the type typedef void xtwidgetproc widget but several places the source code they reference the insert child procedure and pass multiple arguments instead just one the prototype suggests for example superclass composite class insert child args num args now gcc chokes this giving error message that too many arguments are passed the function does anyone have any suggestions how turn off this checking gcc how can about changing the code accomodate this call without changing usr include compositep has anyone successfully built the widget set and have any suggestions many thanks advance for any help bill woodward wpwood austin ibm com try this first aix software support billw aixwiz austin ibm com graphics group the terror that flaps the night
comp.windows.x	problem server hangs sun recently compiled the sources using gcc sun everything seems work fine usually but seemingly random times the server will just hang will click the mouse somewhere never happens while back turned and without warning will freeze there requiring the server killed sometimes will run fine for weeks sometimes only for minutes frame buffer has anyone seen this before any ideas anything all thanks jeff jeff weisberg weisberg rochester edu real cherries valhalla weisberg watch for pits
comp.windows.x	motif athena etc article azj kirk bambi kirk david hughes writes ports motif both bsd and linux are available for fee about this cost recovery for the person who bought the rights redistribute the activity both the bsd and linux news groups pertaining motif has been high heard about that italian guy distributing motif binaries for bsd but haven heard anybody doing the same thing for linux and follow the linux news group pretty closely have missed something love get hold motif libs for linux for regards joe pannon
comp.windows.x	xdm xsession woes just managed get xdm running from ncr svr box running xfree ncd xdisplay pretty much working but encountering weird error attempting start xterm from xsession file but nothing happens redirecting stderr file using exec home xerrors xsession reveals the error message xterm error errno not owner now start xterm from the window manager from the command line works fine and starting other clients like the window manager mwm and clock from xsession also works anyone encountered this suggestions atdhvaannkcse des herriott wise man once said micro focus newbury takes lot brains smart dnh mfltd but takes some neck giraffe
comp.windows.x	mwm title drag crashes server sigpipe article creatures edu ramakris csgrad edu ramakrishnan writes environment mach arch sparc sun ipx sunos patchlevel motif bring server using startx and usr bin xsun the following sequence actions crashes the server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion server lost had this problem well had with the graphics card that comes with the ipx what fixed the problem for was apply the sungx that was part patch patch also used this file perhaps you didn apply the one that came with patch jeff jeff boote boote ncar ucar edu scientific computing division there nothing good bad national center for atmospheric research but thinking makes boulder hamlet
comp.windows.x	how find appcontext article qvatv pandora sdsu edu masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene writes there call give application context fixing motif program and trying use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument the app context what call can use give this value you can get the applicationcontext associated with widget calling xtwidgettoapplicationcontext ian hogg ianhogg umn edu
comp.windows.x	mysterious beeping article qtkk cup com defaria cup com andy defaria writes article crossposted from windows author was andy defaria posted mon apr gmt for some reason the following code causes application beep whenever intercept keystroke and change meaning the intent this code allow date fields the following special keys insert today date bump day one bump day down one hardcoded some dates for this example perhaps shouldn using xmtext field for this for some reason the following code beeps whenever any the special keys are hit why the idea this code interpret these keys having the special meaning implied the code would like get rid the beeping but far can tell not doing the beep and lose understanding who and why the beeping occuring code deleted from the xmtextfield man page during discussion resources xmnverifybell specifies whether bell will sound when action reversed during verification callback you are setting doit false the callback and text field beeping should turn off this behavior set this boolean resource false tom mcfarland tommc com
comp.windows.x	how get fontname from fonstruct anyone know how application can retrieve the name the font from application given xfontstruct would xgetfontproperty work passed font name anyone know details this thanks advance brian brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan
comp.windows.x	xlock article qvir idi lll winken llnl gov dale wente llnl gov dale slone writes dale found oddity with our sgi indigo mips chip dale when xlock nolock running and working remotely dale batch mode the runtime programs timed dale using clock the code itself slower than dale xlock not running other processes seem affect dale runtimes yet this very consistent unless you run xlock mode blank xlock consumes cpu time generating the nice animated display the code you are running competing with xlock for the cpu you run top via remote login you can really see what going scott henry scotth sgi com help disclaimer missing networking services gigo really means garbage gospel out silicon graphics inc
comp.windows.x	xterm ansi color mouse support brown ftms uucp vidiot writes article apr vms huji klony vms huji writes had several requests post any information gathered regarding search for ansi mouse color xterm source only response was from larry virden who writes the mit and both provide mouse escape sequences now there are several color xterm enhancements export lcs mit edu contrib indeed found color xterm tar that directory along with lots other fun stuff for thanks larry also found uunet pub window sys contrib for those that can only anonuucp like but noticed that the thing dated making over two years old this really the latest version are talking about xterm which would accept the same escape sequences that for colour decterm dxterm thought that was called colxterm and testing shows some oddities that might bugs might program going wrong also unsure what meant ansi mouse xterm
comp.windows.x	comp windows intrinsics having problem with the high order bit character being clipped when entered xterm window under motif have reprogrammed the key transmit character sequence using the following line xdefaults ctrl shift alt key string xff string xbe merge this line with xrdb merge and then create the new xterm which has the remapped key the problem that arises that the application which recieving input the time only sees sequence which with the high order bit each character being filtered ignored when run xev and press the key get the correct value showing the following two key events keypress event serial synthetic window root subw time root state keycode keysym xffbe same screen yes xlookupstring gives characters keyrelease event serial synthetic window root subw time root state keycode keysym xffbe same screen yes xlookupstring gives characters notice that the keysym being transmitted correct xffbe but when use the key while program wrote spit back the hex values keyboard input only get does anyone know why the high order bit being filtered and what can make sure that the entire bits make through the final application any help greatly appreciated please email any responses jim kavitsky kavitsky hsi com
comp.windows.x	mix with xlib mwm yes possible fact there some widget code usr lpp somewhere named glib ibm down right now though can find the exact location warning this code feels quite bogus does things like calling noport before winopen and then extracting window from anyway worked just fine under aix spent last weekend trying port under doesn seem like and turning into hard job check out your info pages has some pretty good documentation whan you can and can when mixing and and how about doing rob
comp.windows.x	faq for this group could some kind soul point the right direction for the faq list for this group thanks saad mufti personal library software mail mufti pls com
comp.windows.x	xalloccolor fails return nearest match article slate mines colorado edu agallagh slate mines colorado edu gallagher andrea writes posted for friend okay looked through the faqs and didn see this but know its come before xalloccolor supposed the following order try find exact match read only color cell within hardware limits try allocate read only colorcell and set match and when all else fails return the colorcell with the best match from the read only colors already allocated the colormap where did you hear this printed book somewhere throw away the book according the mit specs only the first are true ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	need font family weight and slant from instance widget how can get the font family weight and slant from instance widget using initfontcontext getnextfont and freefontcontext can get the size the font and bunch other stuff concerning the font but nowhere have found family weight and slant assume that not have access the source where family weight and slant were orginaly used when creating fontlist thanks bunch and have great day carl carl softsolut com
comp.windows.x	transparent widgets how article ntep ntep tmg nec cerna ntep tmg nec alexander cerna writes need write application which does annotation notes existing documents the annotation could done several times different people the idea something like having several acetate transparencies stacked top each other that the user can see through all them seen something like this being done the oclock client could someone please tell how thank you very much the oclock widget was written using the shape extension you can the same your widgets few current widgets support shape you have subclass them add that functionality ken lee klee synoptics com
comp.windows.x	mix with xlib mwm article sparc jade com graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham writes developing application that will include graphics window some sort with moving symbols among other things pure application could implemented with motif widgets one which would xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but would like take advantage the graphics library available our ibm sgi believe possible mix and one application program can use subroutines xmdrawingarea window opened with xopenwindow there widget already defined for the glxmdraw motif glxdraw athena widget similar xmdrawingarea except that allows you use calls render into the window look glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset the man pages have never used before but the doc winopen says that the first time winopen called opens connection the server also most the calls not require display unlike most calls from this initial information appears that and cannot mixed easily this true the glxmdraw widget works pretty well opengl will improvement does pex graphigs have the same functionality think little easier use and little more powerful but that just opinion mileage may vary larry pyeatt the views expressed here are not internet pyeatt texaco com those employer anyone voice that know with the possible exception myself
comp.windows.x	monthly question about xcopyarea and expose events article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti writes posting the question that just doesn seem get answered suppose you have idle app with realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics button widget when pressed will cause new item drawn the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea equiv directly instead should register the existence the new item memory structure and let the same expose event handler that handles regular expose events window manager driven exposures take care rendering the new image using expose event handler proper way this because the time the handler called the xlib window guaranteed mapped the problem course that expose event generated the window already visible and mapped what need somehow tickle the window that the expose handler hit with arguments that will enable render just the part the window that contains the new item what the best way tickle window produce this behavior incrementally update the contents windows use the following trick set the window background none call xcleararea display window true restore the window background its correct value the call xcleararea does not repaint the window background but still generates exposure events for visible parts the window order let application know that these expose events must handled incrementally something already displayed the screen and may need erased encapsulate the operations with self addressed client messages which preserve asynchronicity between the client and the server xgrabserver display client message start incremental background none xcleararea restore background client message end incremental xungrabserver display the grabserver prevents other events inserted the server the critical section vincent prunet sema group sophia antipolis inria sophia antipolis cedex france prunet sophia inria fax
comp.windows.x	sparc ipc sprite goes off screen environment motif sun ipc problem when mouse moved across screen horizontally the sprite goes off the edge the screen and reappears the other edge appears that the server thinks are running multi screen mode the cursor seems wrap from one side the screen the other far can tell are not running the server multi screen mode please reply via mail ray bentz phone bluestone consulting inc fax church street uunet uunet blustone bentz mount laurel internet blustone bentz uunet net
comp.windows.x	xcopyplane question article buzz apr lion bear com buzz bear com buzz moschetti write article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes actually must also ask the faq most popular reason why graphics don show you wait for expose event before drawing your rectangle suppose you have idle app with realized and mapped window that contains xlib graphics button widget when pressed will cause new item drawn the window this action clearly should not call xcopyarea equiv directly instead should register the existence the new item memory structure and let the expose event handler take care rendering the image because that time guaranteed that the window mapped the problem course that expose event generated the window visible and mapped you know the best way tickle window that the expose event handler will invoked draw this new item what does this have with original question previously stated that did xcopyarea the depth pixmap the screen just make sure that image had data and did this not problem with expose events has with xcopyplane not working does anyone have code fragment they could send demonstrating that xcopyplane works this would very helpful thanks what has with your original question this many times beginning users heck experienced users too write small test programs many times they forget draw only response expose events and thus see unpreditable results whereby sometimes the application graphics show and sometimes they don just trying eliminate all the easy explanations for why you not seeing your graphics that being said why don you try copying different planes your window other than try see you get any output since you dipslaying only single plane your data possible that all the pixel values your pixmap have the same value for that color plane ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara
comp.windows.x	running dxterm onto apollo from dec apollo domain motif think you are running xapollo server you want server you should install pskq you can run xdomain get these errors appearing the decstation dxterm toolkit warning cannot convert string key apchardel type virtualbinding segmentation fault any ideas motif problem are the dec and apollo versions motif incompatible something with xkeysymdb xkeysymdb you could add apollo specific keysyms aplinedel apchardel apcopy apcut appaste apmove apgrow apcmd apshell apleftbar aprightbar apleftbox aprightbox apupbox apdownbox appop apread apedit apsave apexit aprepeat apkp parenleft ffa apkp parenright ffa victor victor hpfrcu france com oooo oooo victor gattegno yourself and not what people expect you
comp.windows.x	graphics accelerators how can obtain public information documentation and sources about xservers implemented with graphics processors specially interested xservers developed for the tms texas instruments graphic processor please send answer arana labein
comp.windows.x	tvtwm xsetroot and sparc keyboard please reply direct not member this list new please excuse lax read probably incorrect terminology environment sun sparc sunos path level process started xdm want setup the backgroud root window the tvtwm display display the escherknot etc grey very boring colour work the setup follows lib xdm xsetup xsetroot bitmap etc user xsession xsetroot etc tvtwm there are also tvtwmrc and xdefaults files the user home directory the xsetroot xsetup displays the appropriate bitmap the xdm login window expected very nice unfortunately when the users session started the background the tvtwm window reverts grey manually type xsetroot xterm window when the session has started the background changed expected the question how retain the background from the login window and specify new background per user basis part the the users session startup when open xterm the sparc not all the keys are recognised and some keys the keyboard are not sending the correct characters real key key shown screen hash back slash tilde pipe double quote symbol pound hash cursor key not recognised this very annoying fault here the machine setup have installed the xterm drivers that came with both terminfo and termcap they seemed more uptodate typing set xterm window shows terminal type xterm expected any help how correct either these problems much appreciated thanks dave janet haywood sheffield hallam dave haywood haywood shu computer services internet haywood shu sheffield hallam university telex shpoly pond street tel sheffield england fax haywood sheffield hallam prmd admd sheffield hallam university computer services dave haywood
comp.windows.x	tvtwm xsetroot and sparc keyboard article mailqueue oak shu haywood sheffield hallam writes environment sun sparc sunos path level process started xdm okay that good typing this from exactly the same setup unix layout keyboard did install the sunkbd patch though want setup the backgroud root window the tvtwm display display the escherknot etc grey very boring colour work make sure you using ssetroot which comes with tvtwm when tvtwm starts nukes the existing root window use ssetroot after tvtwm starts you could spawn off sleep ssetroot you can also use virtualdesktopbackgroundpixmap filename just virtualdesktopbackground you just want another color besides grey when open xterm the sparc not all the keys are recognised and some keys the keyboard are not sending the correct characters did you install the sunkbd patch the contrib directory export all the keys keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown the key cluster aren recognized even the compose key works though can seem get the composed characters xterm get passed anyone have fix for the last two dave system administrator penn state population research institute dog dianetics woof woof woof page kibo
comp.windows.x	imake help needed can someone please give some pointers setting imake sun openwindows enviornment checked through all the documentation but can not find any clues please respons via mail thanks paul paul byrne british aerospace defence ltd dynamics division email paul byrne def bae fpc box filton phone bristol
comp.windows.x	help setting colormaps multi top level app dear sgi and netter mixed model experts writing mixed model application that creates couple different color maps for different windows and been having trouble getting the window manager reliably honor requests some environments entry level indigo all windows are getting properly connected their designated color maps but others iris gtx also different entry level indigo the color mapping unreliable and changes behavior when compile different times the most common problem that all non top level windows fail displayed according their colormap application starts out creating three top level windows some cases all but the first these also fail displayed their colormap this spectacularly aggravating would dearly appreciate explanation the standard right correct way give window colormap such that the window manager will honor and obey any advice about problems that could cause failure get desired colormaps now have exhausted own attempts this having tried everything reasonable imaginable below example code giving the schematic for how have been trying this please please please somebody tell what doing wrong how right yours chris lee display dpy declare some data colormap popup cmap xcolor mycolor window win xsetwindowattributes cwa int nwlist window wlist for brevity not showing all code lines just schematic popup cmap xcreatecolormap dpy defaultrootwindow dpy vis visual allocall here store bunch colors using xstorecolor dpy popup cmap mycolor cwa colormap popup cmap win xcreatewindow dpy parent borderwidth vis depth inputoutput vis visual cwcolormap cwborderpixel cwa list all sub windows topwin parent win into wlist nwlist counter entries wlist wlist static storage that can relied not away corrupted thought that does anyone know setting properties data copy reference pointer acceptable pass data for property then free the data xsetwmcolormapwindows dpy topwin wlist nwlist xmapraised display win later handle xevents normally typical eventloop
comp.windows.x	xfree and esix hello netlanders novice user with question for any xgod computer configuration with the problem follows ram running esix wangtek style interface tape drive have loaded the basic which includes nsu and inet utilities tcp ftp the xfree binaries and installed properly can execute startx and run windows with problems however try access the tape drive while the machine locks instantly out and access the tape the tape drive works fine soon try startx again the screen changes modes but the grey background pattern does not come and xterm forked have login from another terminal and execute shutdown reset the system contacted esix about this problem they claim their window server which have works with the wangtek tape drive they also claim only need the nsu network system utilities run don need inet tcp experience has been that need both get xfree work not too concerned about having load both nsu and inet packages get work unless the inet package causing problem would like get both and tape drive exist the same system you can shed any light the problem would appreciated one colleague implied this might hardware conflict this true what direction should look resolve the conflict thanks kenneth cobler ksc ihlpv att com bell laboratories shuman blvd naperville
comp.windows.x	cursors according the osf motif style guide one should use cursor shapes give the user visual clue what happening what expected him hourglass cursor should shown when the application busy caution cursor should shown over area when input expected another defining cursors for widgets has done rather low level defining cursor for all widgets application but not for certain subpart rather complicated matter when cursors have been defined for some windows crosswire cursor for drawingarea things get even more complicated intuition says that things should easier but this anyone has solid and complete solution problem please let know the topics busy cursors the several faq are not helpful since they only work for applications where all windows have the cursor window attribute set none hans geurtsen phone nucletron research mail hgn nuclint surface waardgelder veenendaal
comp.windows.x	how can detect local remote display settings trying find out application running local remote display local display being connected the same system that the client executing have access the display string but can tell from the string the client executing host foo then unix foo and localhost are all local under ultrix believe that local also valid display name shared memory connection maybe are there other strings that should check for there better way detect this thank you for any help you can give jim atkinson wavefront technologies inc jra wti com what company spokesperson get real life not spectator sport
comp.windows.x	running home talking host over serial line some time back asked for software recommendations allow run from home sparc the office many thanks for all replies the majority people recommended pcxremote from ncd received yesterday and installed sparc and with only one hitch the unix install consists copying files into some local bin directory the side ordered the windows version which came with slick windows installation the only problem had was that xinitrc home directory had the line display hostname export display the clients kicked off connected xserver the sparc console removing this line from the xinitrc everything worked planned and the clients connected the server hostname some comments performance was connected sparc thru netblazer terminal server over baud line ati ultra bitmap stuff sucked basic editing and compilation stuff definitely usable xmail was very usable times the first time typed xclient window there was very noticable delay put this down brain damaged windows should not called scheduler besides that this will become remote work environment for while has anybody tried the non windows version the product the sales person said they performed about the same given the over head windows question this many thanks for help all who responded gerard
comp.windows.x	headed sun possible cgfour bwtwo have sun that has mono framebuffer bwtwo built the motherboard the same system also has cgfour cgfour and bwtwo daughterboard have been using this system with color monitor having color front screen from the cgfour and mono back screen from the bwtwo both the same tube recentley picked sun mono monitor and would like make two headed system with the cgfour and the bwtwo not care loose the back screen the color tube from the bwtwo after looking through the xsun man page not sure this possible has anybody sucessfuly done this before matthew
comp.windows.x	cose gui just what they agreed the cose announcement specifies that motif will become the common gui but what does this mean exactly they mean that all cose complient apps will have the motif look and feel they mean that all cose complient apps will use the motif toolkit api they mean both the above possible that there will motif api complient toolkit with openlook look feel how about olit xview interviews api toolkit with motif know already does this but will this considered cose complient will there more than one standard toolkit api supported how does using tooltalk fit with motif this attempt start discussion order pull much knowledge about these questions off the net feel free mail followup gil tene some days just doesn pay devil imp hellnet org sleep the morning devil diablery com
comp.windows.x	xterm problem with input focus shuffle the situation running fortran executable that creats xterm option the menu contained the xterm runs fortran subroutine that creats tektronics mode xterm for displaying some graphics typing ret while the tektronics mode xterm future reference this will tek term active makes the xterm read future keystrokes but does not shift input focus the xterm basing that statement the fact that the border the tek term stays the highlighted color and that the tek term stays top xterm what describing isn input focus let know the xterm can brought the top clicking the mouse button subsequent selections from the xterm the menu item that displays graphics highlihts the border and displays the updated graphics but does not move the tek term the top the tek term has been iconized conserve screen space stays icon the desired behavior one two options whichever the windows that active always top the inactive one whenever the tek term inactivated should revert icon but when activated should become window higher level than the xterm what think need means specifying that xterm tek term will the highest level and way iconify expand xterm and tek term these commands would guess need the fortran the command that starts the xterm and tek term other information all this taking place dec dumb windows terminal connected vax running vms and motif thanks for your time you got any words wisdom other than give please send email jhcox kodak com
comp.windows.x	dell eisa video cards does xfree support any eisa video cards under dell larry snyder larry gator com
comp.windows.x	device driver for bird has anyone written device driver use the ascension bird with xwindows suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute systems science tel national university singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus singapore
comp.windows.x	mix with xlib mwm pyeatt texaco com larry pyeatt writes article sparc jade com graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham writes xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but would like take advantage the graphics library available our ibm sgi believe possible mix and one application program can use subroutines xmdrawingarea window opened with xopenwindow you can make calls xmdrawingarea widget for sure there widget already defined for the glxmdraw motif glxdraw athena widget similar xmdrawingarea except that allows you use calls render into the window look glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset the man pages the glxmdraw widget works pretty well opengl will improvement can vouch for that the widget works pretty well have been using for sometime now not sure though whether you can use xlib calls draw into the widget haven tried yet nor have read the accompanying documentation completely try posting comp sys sgi for more information better still you will find most the answers the sgi manuals there little transition guide which explains the mixed model programming paradigm mixing and does pex graphigs have the same functionality think little easier use and little more powerful but that just opinion mileage may vary well pex designed extension and will more seamless but then buggy start with opinions again suresh thennarangam email suresh iss nus internet research scholar issst nusvm bitnet institute systems science tel national university singapore facs heng mui keng terrace telex issnus singapore
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article apr dsd com pmartz dsd com paul martz writes article apr infodev cam dcr mail ast cam derek richardson writes new this group please bear with two years ago wrote sunview application for fast animation raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete finally decided rewrite everything from scratch xview put together quick test and found that xputimage considerably slower factor average than the sunview command rop which moves image data from memory pixrects canvas this was sparc ipx seems that the protocol communication slowing things down xputimage inefficient both using xputimage your source maintained the client and the destination maintained the server thus you incur the overhead transporting through whatever client server communications mechanism you are using possible for you maintain your source images pixmaps these are maintained the server copying them into window much cheaper also make sure you are not sending any unnecessary xsyncs running xsynchonize mode you need speed and your client can run the same host the server you should use the shared memory extension the sample server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you your server has this extension this certainly available with the sample mit server running under sunos word warning make sure your kernel configured support shared memory and another word warning openwindows slower than the mit server have written imaging tool using xview for the gui the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running sparc ipc half the cpu grunt ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	high order bit character xterm does anyone know why the high order bit being filtered and what can make sure that the entire bits make through the final application any help greatly appreciated you need these resources xterm eightbitinput true xterm eightbitoutput true the shell you need stty istrip good luck victor victor gattegno email victor hpfrcu france com xxx hewlett packard france hpdesk avenue canada phone les ulis cedex telnet
comp.windows.x	xquerybestcursor semi broken some one asked recently why they when they used xquerybestcursor see they could create given size seemed imply they could but the server did not create cursors that size investigation showed that some servers will happily return any size the size the root window while others return some fixed limit more reasonable size the interesting thing that the same server binary acts differently different hardware sun with will claim cursors root window size are while sun with will stop far also seen this behavior ncd and phase terminals and have been told also occurs hps actually the ncd even more liberal sizes much larger then the root winodw are gladly returned xquerybestcursor semi broken this behavior correct really like see cursor richard neitzel thor thor atd ucar edu torren med sitt skjegg national center for atmospheric research lokkar borni under sole vegg box boulder gjo med sitt shinn jagar borni inn
comp.windows.x	xdm decnet does xdm work with decnet have ultrix machine running both tcp and decnet have number terminals hanging off the ultrix host also running tcp and decnet presently using xdm for the login procedure the terminals using tcp since xdm basically just windows client shouldn able run xdm the decnet protocol tower well xdm not just window client xdm has its own protocol xdmcp that operates ucp port does provide login window which window client using decnet protocol looking through the source for xdm from that have here seems that the bare bones code there but not completely there first inclination that xdm not your typical client making tcp specific socket calls this case the answer would you can not run xdm over decnet this right not any feedback appreciated thanks from look the source seems you cannot run over decnet shipped with patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	xmscale xtaddeventhandler dear xperts developing application that uses motif slider select image file out directory now would like display the name the file corresponding the value the dragged scale button with the pressed xmnshowvalue only displays the current value the scale button and not the actual corresponding image file name thought using xtaddeventhandler the mapping between the scale value and the file name xtaddeventhandler scaleimage button motionmask false slidermoved null and the eventhandler while xchecktypedwindowevent display event window motionnotify return xmscalegetvalue scaleimage value map value file entry directory and finally obtain file name open however when move the pointer the scale widget get callbacks with urse null effect not pressed move the scale button what goin wrong the wrong approach this problem any hints are highly appreciated phil
comp.windows.x	problem with dni and openwin can anyone help having problem displaying images greater than bytes from decwindows program running vax and displaying sparc ipc running openwindows and dni the program works fine with openwindows the code segment which fails given below the program simply crashes out with xlib error the xputimage call ximage ximage ximage xcreateimage mydisplay defaultvisual mydisplay myscreen ddepth zpixmap image xwid ywid xputimage mydisplay mywindow mygc ximage xpos ypos xwid ywid paul jaques systems engineer camborne school mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall mail pjaques csm tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	wanted info dedicated server kernel for sun series anyone has any information about the existence location dedicated server kernel for the sun please send email trying put some neglected sun good use but they don have enough memory for sunos thanks advance for any help max bell used think emmigrate escape mbell techbook com the tyrants but now think stay mbell cie uoregon edu and make them leave instead
comp.windows.x	available memory the xserver how get the actual size hello article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu mouse mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse writes article igd fhg pfuetz igd fhg matthias pfuetzner writes there possibility determine via protocol calls the size free memory available the xserver even you could the answer could out date even before you get even you grab the server could taken buffering user actions you should just try whatever you want badalloc error your indication that insufficient server memory available der mouse this isn much help especially when doing phigs pex via the libphigs supplied mit have much trouble together with pex terminals that don have enough memory performing the following visual visualid copyfromparent pix whitepixel grafik display defaultscreen grafik display xswa backing store notuseful xswa event mask exposuremask structurenotifymask xswa background pixel pix graphic window xcreatewindow graphic display rootwindow graphic display defaultscreen graphic display displaywidth graphic display defaultscreen graphic display displayheight graphic display defaultscreen graphic display unsigned int inputoutput visual cweventmask cwbackingstore cwbackpixel xswa xmapwindow graphic display graphic window sync and wait for exposure event xsync graphic display false xwindowevent graphic display graphic window exposuremask exposureevent conn display graphic display conn drawable graphic window xinfo display graphic display xinfo flags monitor false monitor running xinfo flags force client false popen xphigs null pxphigs info flags mon pxphigs info flags client pxphigs info display xinfo popen pconnid conn phigs type drawable get core dumps the popen call badalloc etc simply core dump need some way getting info about the maximal available memory the xserver but thanks sincerly matthias matthias pfuetzner work home darmstadt frg zgdv wilhelminenstrasse lichtenbergstrasse pfuetzner igd fhg pfuetzner zgdvda uucp keith packard said different from that why changed the release number
comp.windows.x	din fonts hello everybody hope that insert the right options that question only distributed through out germany because question more less country dependend now the question there anybody who can tell and course where there ftp site archie whatever where din fonts for are available looking for fonts holding the specification din din din thanks advance juergen schietke research insitute for discrete mathematics university bonn nassestr bonn germany tel mail schietke uni bonn
comp.windows.x	imake cpp problems aix trying build and use imake ibm running aix having the following problems many imakefile have contructs like this makefile the start lines pass makefile comments thru the preprocessor and into the makefile most the preprocessors that have used will not treat such appearing the start the line thus the preprocessor does not treat the hash symbol the start directive however the ibm cpp strips the comment and treats the hash symbol the start directive the cpp fails when determines that this not known directive have temporarily hacked imake handle this situation but would like come with better fix several imakefiles use parameter macro when particular use the macro does not need value for the parameter the aix cpp gives warnings about these situations but continues work you are familiar with these problems and have solutions would appreciate information about your solutions perhaps this solved later version imake that have not reviewed also you know other cpp that behave similarly since not have easy access news response white billy gis prc com would appreciated
comp.windows.x	motif windows article apr topgun smikes topgun steven mikes writes another company congruent corporation new york city has also ported xlib and motif over windows which provides full client development for applications environment could someone please send the postal and email address congruent corporation and any competitors they may have thank you snail lsl washing one hands the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means side with the powerful not neutral quote freire poster oxfam
comp.windows.x	program argument geometry have question regarding the processing program arguments such the geometry option since this standard option wondering wether have parse manually whether there some predefined function that will this for thanks for any info robret
comp.windows.x	drawing lines inverse xor article apr news media mit edu dyoung media mit edu david young writes xsetfunction mydisplay gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay drawindex then draw xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea xflush mydisplay and when all done return things normal xsetfunction mydisplay gxcopy what like happen for the lines draw the inverse whatever drawing over instead what happens get white lines the lines are over white background nothing shows the lines are over black area nothing shows very strange but the gxxor function seems right since rubber banding box erases and redraws itself correctly not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what doing wrong david try change the gxxor gxequiv have this for programs that are run ncd terminals sun terminals have change back gxxor kurt
comp.windows.x	crl archive change announcement the multi lingual archives the computing research labs new mexico state university will moving new ftp address soon the archives are being put under control the consortium for lexical research the new ftp address will clr nmsu edu the current address but may change use clr nmsu edu whenever possible please note that there difference between ftp sites crl nmsu edu and clr nmsu edu the crl nmsu edu site will our ftp site for items not related the consortium for lexical research the arabic chinese french italian indian japanese korean tibetan and vietnamese archives will all moved will announce the new locations the relevant directories once the archives have been moved please patient you discover directories missing when you ftp either crl nmsu edu clr nmsu edu will take few days move everything you are not familiar with our multi lingual archives have been slowly collecting various software fonts and text for different languages over the past years most the software currently unix oriented would also like encourage people continue contribute items the archives help improve the quality and quantity multi lingual tools you have item contribute please put clr nmsu edu incoming and send note lexical nmsu edu telling them about your contribution you have any questions comments please send them lexical nmsu edu mleisher nmsu edu mark leisher computing research lab elegance not optional new mexico state university attributed richard keefe box crl las cruces
comp.windows.x	subscription please subscribe this mailing list michael grapevine one these days usn swc one these days code pow grape suned nswses navy mil gonna happen bus and won even realize
comp.windows.x	subscribe subscribe grape nswses navy mil
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window try this after xcreatewindow include xutil display display window window xsizehints xsizehints xallocsizehints xsizehints flags usposition ussize pposition psize xsizehints xsizehints xsizehints width xsizehints height xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints xfree xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size the window are specified the users and that the window manager should accept these values you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values the program not the user don know window manager that doesn place the window like you prefer you specify the position and size like above greetings from berlin tobias bading berlin
comp.windows.x	automated testing does anyone know what available terms automated testing motif applications thinking system which could program which could record events output with our verification test procedures and then run rerun each time regression testing interested product like this for our unix projects and for separate project which will using openvms mark collier southwest research institute senior research analyst automation and data systems division voice data systems department fax software engineering section
comp.windows.x	headed sun possible cgfour bwtwo article fitz cornell edu matthew alchemy cornell edu matthew kleinmann writes have sun that has mono framebuffer bwtwo built the motherboard the same system also has cgfour cgfour and bwtwo daughterboard have been using this system with color monitor having color front screen from the cgfour and mono back screen from the bwtwo both the same tube recentley picked sun mono monitor and would like make two headed system with the cgfour and the bwtwo not care loose the back screen the color tube from the bwtwo after looking through the xsun man page not sure this possible has anybody sucessfuly done this before any consolation have two headed sun systems though the color and mono monitors for each are rated their configuration the same yours should plug play situation except don know your res mono monitor will function this way however you may simply able pull the motherboard and set the res jumper located the same jumper array the jumpers for the ram simm selects and ethernet connection and happily your way when you pull the motherboard the jumpers are the left rear north west quadrant the motherboard the left the simm sockets thad floryan thad btr com thad cup portal com thad netcom com
comp.windows.x	title for xterm article quh irz inf dresden beck irzr inf dresden andre beck writes article aeon berlin thomas aeon berlin thomas wolfram writes hey guys work many stations and would like this name and current logname title xterm when open and machine name only when closed other words want host and logname appear title opened xterm and host when xterm closed how can almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for for your purpose put following into your login you using csh tcsh for you have modify term xterm then echo logname host host endif this not feature the window manager but xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know there are compatible sequences for this and what they are would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may csi sequence exists too this must work dxterm and ansi compatible may not work xterms works xterms least have problem with back the original question usually start new xterms selecting the proper menu entry desktop menu here sample command xterm title rlogin the and title options give the text for window and icon use the tcsh wonderful extension the csh can the following have alias precmd echo host cwd tcshrc this special alias for tvtwm executed each time before printing the prompt have the current host name and the current directory path the title bar xterms unido ingolf markhof university dortmund informatik xii box dortmund germany phone fax email markhof informatik uni dortmund
comp.windows.x	need shading program example anyone know about any shading program based xlib the public domain need example about how allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help howard
comp.windows.x	title for xterm article inn fbi news informatik uni dortmund markhof informatik uni dortmund ingolf markhof writes article quh irz inf dresden beck irzr inf dresden andre beck writes article aeon berlin thomas aeon berlin thomas wolfram writes hey guys work many stations and would like this name and current logname title xterm when open and machine name only when closed other words want host and logname appear title opened xterm and host when xterm closed how can almost all window managers twm mwm olwm and their derivates support escape sequences for for your purpose put following into your login you using csh tcsh for you have modify term xterm then echo logname host host endif this not feature the window manager but xterm this sequences are not ansi compatible are they does anyone know there are compatible sequences for this and what they are would think they are dcs device control sequence introduced but may csi sequence exists too this must work dxterm and ansi compatible may not work xterms works xterms least have problem with back the original question usually start new xterms selecting the proper menu entry desktop menu here sample command xterm title rlogin the and title options give the text for window and icon use the tcsh wonderful extension the csh can the following have alias precmd echo host cwd tcshrc this special alias for tvtwm executed each time before printing the prompt have the current host name and the current directory path the title bar xterms have you gotten answer yet using your variables this what would xterm host logname host daniel mccoy space net inc nasa mail code tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	function key text string translation want press function key and have text string appear xmtext widget when put xmtext translations augment key insert string hello resource file the translation doesn happen put xmtext translations key insert string hello the file get the text string hello when pressed but other keys work which makes sense since the default translation mode replace have syntax problem here something deeper bill massena wam yak boeing com
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage new this group please bear with two years ago wrote sunview application for fast animation raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete finally decided rewrite everything from scratch xview put together quick test and found that xputimage considerably slower factor average than the sunview command rop which moves image data from memory pixrects canvas this was sparc ipx seems that the protocol communication slowing things down xputimage inefficient both question what the fastest way dump plane image data window can take advantage the fact that the client running the same machine the server stuck with xputimage which case might well give now all help appreciated thanks derek article infodev cam dcr mail ast cam derek richardson writes derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam animation most frequently done copying the the client resident ximages into server resident pixmap using xputimage once this done the original ximages can deleted and the animation loop can performed using xcopyarea from the pixmaps the windows drawable hope this helpfull john
comp.windows.x	calling library which creates widgets multiple times few days ago posted question about trying call function which set app multiple times was pointed out that xtappinitialize should never called more than once this helped however still having some problems below new little test program that more closely models real program the actual program writing library callable from any other program this means that the first time the lib function called must initialize things and after that should just use the old stuff still around because static variables the demo below main represents the main program calling library and doit represents the interface the library function include xlib include include pushb include stdio include stdlib void bla xtappcontext app widget top widget topone top real prog these are member vars xtappcontext theapp app class int junk display dis xtopendisplay theapp null null null null junk null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget blaaa xmpushbuttonwidgetclass topone xmnheight xmnwidth null xtrealizewidget topone for int real prog returns when exit button clicked xevent event xtappnextevent theapp event xtdispatchevent event xtdestroywidget box xtclosedisplay dis setitup should called once only void setitup xtappcontext app widget top int junk top xtappinitialize app test null junk null null null doit some library function callable from the outside void doit static xtappcontext app use these every time called static widget top static int setup setup setitup app top setup bla app top main program which links library main for int doit printf sleeping widget still screen this point sleep the problem that the widget does not away until the new one created still the screen unusuable during the sleep the main prog despite the xtdestroywidget call anyone see something missing thanks very much please respond via email david rex wood davewood colorado edu university colorado boulder
comp.windows.x	repost accelerators translations posted this while ago and didn recieve one reply and now have another bug report the same subject can anybody help out how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent case what want ctrl and ctrl both accelerators one menu entry ora vol the section accelerators says for information how specify translation tables see vol this you know what put for the xmnaccelerator resource you vol says likewise modifier specified there nothing prohibit other modifiers from being present well for example the translation shift key quit will take effect even the ctrl key held down the same time the shift key and the key this implies that setting xmnaccelerator ctrl key should what want but doesn doesn work the user presses the control key the shift key and the key possible supply accelerator for menu entry keep mind when answering this question that when using motif you can use xtinstallaccelerators using motif decstation but have also tried using motif and steve dennis internet sdennis ann arbor applicon slb com software engineer applicon inc ann arbor michigan hail the victors
comp.windows.x	ftp unix dos unix new this having found some files public look into ftp them system have access then used kermit transmit them via modem host computer based file system access internet through modem access university mainframe from the file server pull the files disk and then pull them from disk sgi indigo the sgi not networked yet when try uncompress and tar the files they either come out garbage get error the tar process about directories being invalid what wondering about the transfer unix files compressed binary ascii about multiple platforms guess that the copy dos disk that screwing things any help appreciated bob
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage everyone does anyone know good way adjust colourmaps the fly say during animation and prevent the current set colours from flickering thanks robert robert acsc com
comp.windows.x	how get fontname from fonstruct article apr narya gsfc nasa gov dealy narya gsfc nasa gov brian dealy csc writes anyone know how application can retrieve the name the font from application given xfontstruct would xgetfontproperty work passed font name anyone know details this thanks advance brian brian dealy not knowing where dealy kong gsfc nasa gov that important knowing uunet dftsrv kong dealy where not dylan try this char name null unsigned long value xgetfontproperty font font value name xgetatomname dpy value where dpy your display connection and font your xfontstruct pointer alan richardson you don have school maths physical sciences old wise univ sussex brighton england judas priest mppa sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex
comp.windows.x	title for xterm article inn fbi news informatik uni dortmund markhof informatik uni dortmund ingolf markhof writes have alias precmd echo host cwd tcshrc this special alias for tvtwm presume that you meant say tcsh here michael salmon include standard disclaimer include witty saying include fancy pseudo graphics ericsson telecom stockholm
comp.windows.x	how find appcontext apr gmt masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene said there call give application context fixing motif program and trying use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument the app context what call can use give this value believe xtvaappinitialize something like that robert mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer
comp.windows.x	mix with xlib mwm apr graham sparc ottawa jade com jay graham said developing application that will include graphics window some sort with moving symbols among other things pure application could implemented with motif widgets one which would xmdrawingarea for drawing with xlib but would like take advantage the graphics library available our ibm sgi believe possible mix and one application program can use subroutines xmdrawingarea window opened with xopenwindow sgi distribution with their indigo line others well possibly they include source code for widget that fits top motif and one that based well you may wish ask ibm whether they support this robert mcmillin surf city software rlm helen surfcty com dude include std disclaimer
comp.windows.x	version xrecplay have and use xrecplay for does one exist for have tried contact one the developers eric swildens ess hal com but longer there and has forwarding email address archie help either any help would appreciated thanks daniel mccoy space net inc nasa mail code tel nasa johnson space center our fax houston texas future mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	expose configure event handling have two questions well probably more about how expose configure events are handled have appl which uses window draw since give the user the capability scaling and zooming well allowing the window resized made translation table for the expose configure events the expose event calls redraw method while the configure event calls rescale method the rescale method invokes fake expose event actually just calls the redraw appropriate expose struct draw the data quest when the appl compiled linked running either env get multiple redraws when the window gets uncovered the size changed assume getting cascading events that right any suggestions how handle trap events better way quest when the appl compiled linked get expose events whatsoever events and translation tables act differently thanks advance steve steve kelley umcp umiacs captain protest internet skelley umiacs umd edu not merry man worf
comp.windows.x	looking for filemanager under does anyone have file manager that runs under unix brians brian sheets truck what truck support engineer atlas telecom inc raiders the lost ark brians atlastele com
comp.windows.x	finding out state state keys capslock and numlock looked the faq and the reilly books and was unable find easy means finding out the state state keys such capslock and numlock can certainly track the events inside window and set boolean there but what capslock pressed another window looked xgrabkey and decided was definitely not what wanted could find convenience function tell that information question this there means determining what the state capslock and numlock even more pointed question there easy means making keyboard act like keyboard capslock active and the user presses shift like get lowercase instead any input greatly appreciated please respond via email will repost summary findings thanks ralph
comp.windows.x	store post events store and reply mouse and keyboard events produce regression tests automatic demo would like store all mouse and keyboard events produced user should possible filter the mouse and keyboard events from the server queue store them file this sequence events stored file should given the server queue user working exists tool that capable save and reply all mouse and keyboard events where where one can catch these events store them our case the server queue terminal where can catch all events coming from given server this not possible can catch all events given certain client and how where one can send stored sequence events simulate user there central dispatcher the clients machine who manages all incoming events from given server and how can reach thanks advance ron
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage new this group please bear with two years ago wrote sunview application for fast animation raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete finally decided rewrite everything from scratch xview put together quick test and found that xputimage considerably slower factor average than the sunview command rop which moves image data from memory pixrects canvas this was sparc ipx seems that the protocol communication slowing things down xputimage inefficient both question what the fastest way dump plane image data window can take advantage the fact that the client running the same machine the server stuck with xputimage which case might well give now all help appreciated thanks derek derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam
comp.windows.x	drawing lines inverse xor article apr alf uib singg alf uib kurt george gjerde writes article apr news media mit edu dyoung media mit edu david young writes xsetfunction mydisplay gxxor xsetforeground mydisplay drawindex then draw xdrawline mydisplay xtwindow drawingarea xflush mydisplay and when all done return things normal xsetfunction mydisplay gxcopy what like happen for the lines draw the inverse whatever drawing over instead what happens get white lines the lines are over white background nothing shows the lines are over black area nothing shows very strange but the gxxor function seems right since rubber banding box erases and redraws itself correctly not disturbing the underlying image any suggestions what doing wrong david try change the gxxor gxequiv have this for programs that are run ncd terminals sun terminals have change back gxxor there small section the reilly xlib books that describes the right thing the key set the plane mask the the the foreground and background pixel values douglas rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge disclaimer don know osf agrees with let vote amateur radio
comp.windows.x	compiling sun article apr aio jsc nasa gov mccoy gothamcity jsc nasa gov writes article qfe qzz andrew cmu edu wilson swee andrew cmu edu writes have piece code that compiles fine pmax pmax mach well sun mach but whenever compiles sun gives undefined errors sin cos pow floor get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the following libraries that linked are lxaw lxmu lxt lxext the makefile generated off imake template can anyone give pointers what missing out compile sun well the first are easy you need the math library try adding after don know that the whole problem but start think you should try linking usr lib libxmu instead lxmu least that solved the problem for
comp.windows.x	authorization hello this first net letter forgive mistakes have been plagued problems lack info with authorization open windows for long while and would like some help please generally use strait mit and don use much but when share software with others bad news problem friend who logs into his ssii trys run program that runs fine machine however friend gets client not authorized connect server something close started with the noauth option all well but surely this not required general also xhost does not work becoming root does not work etc any help will greatly appreciated thanx send replies neuralog neosoft com this news group
comp.windows.x	program argument geometry have question regarding the processing program arguments such the geometry option since this standard option wondering wether have parse manually whether there some predefined function that will this for you are using the intrinsics parsed for you you are working the xlib level you can parse yourself you can use the following bit code static xrmoptiondescrec options geometry geometry xrmoptionseparg xpointer null define number sizeof sizeof xrmparsecommand options number options myapplication argc argv then use xrmgetresource retrieve the value and parse using xparsegeometry probably quicker parse yourself from argv however much prefer using the resource management routines this patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	mwm title drag crashes server sigpipe article apr ncar ucar edu boote eureka scd ucar edu jeff boote writes article creatures edu ramakris csgrad edu ramakrishnan writes environment mach arch sparc sun ipx sunos patchlevel motif bring server using startx and usr bin xsun the following sequence actions crashes the server sigpipe errno xinit reports that connexion server lost had this problem well had with the graphics card that comes with the ipx what fixed the problem for was apply the sungx that was part patch patch also used this file perhaps you didn apply the one that came with patch jeff jeff boote boote ncar ucar edu scientific computing division there nothing good bad national center for atmospheric research but thinking makes boulder hamlet thanx jeff you lifesaver imported the new sun emulator that came with patch the problem has since disappeared thanx der schoene mouse for his help too ramakrishnan dept mcbryde hall vatech
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article apr infodev cam dcr mail ast cam derek richardson writes new this group please bear with two years ago wrote sunview application for fast animation raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete finally decided rewrite everything from scratch xview put together quick test and found that xputimage considerably slower factor average than the sunview command rop which moves image data from memory pixrects canvas this was sparc ipx seems that the protocol communication slowing things down xputimage inefficient both using xputimage your source maintained the client and the destination maintained the server thus you incur the overhead transporting through whatever client server communications mechanism you are using possible for you maintain your source images pixmaps these are maintained the server copying them into window much cheaper also make sure you are not sending any unnecessary xsyncs running xsynchonize mode paul pmartz dsd com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	xsun not running sparcclassic installed with patches for solaris our sparcstation sparcclassic pool the runs fine but the classics after giving the command startx xsun prints the following messages warning mmap can map dummy space mapping such device address and exits does anybody know how fix this problem thanks advance christian rank lehrstuhl fuer wirtschaftsinformatik universitaet passau innstr passau
comp.windows.x	mix with xlib mwm pyeatt texaco com writes there widget already defined for the glxmdraw motif glxdraw athena widget similar xmdrawingarea except that allows you use calls render into the window look glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset the man pages where get hold these widgets gerard driscoll gerard odriscoll dps pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	support for pressure sensitive tablet are there any vendors supporting pressure sensitive tablet pen with will appreciate any pointers thanks sanjay baldwa adobe com decwrl adobe baldwa
comp.windows.x	automated testing mark collier mark trident datasys swri edu wrote does anyone know what available terms automated testing motif applications thinking system which could program which could record events output with our verification test procedures and then run rerun each time regression testing interested product like this for our unix projects and for separate project which will using openvms question like this answered the faq about sharing windows one the answers xtrap record and playback extenstion you can find export lcs mit edu contrib xtrapv tar does anyone know program which doesn require extension most the the servers have work have vendor extensions which can modify xtrap doesn help there conferencing software mit but don know how easy would modify record and playback any help would appreciated bill poitras molecular simulations inc tel bill msi com sunnyvale fax ftp mail mail ftpmail decwrl dec com offers ftp via email subject help quit
comp.windows.x	need shading program example anyone know about any shading program based xlib the public domain need example about how allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help don know this might help but just started playing with program called povray persistance vision raytracer that also displays its output via windows does fairly good job allocating the colormap psuedo color plane display got the source from from site canda the person retrieved them from was david buck dbuck ccs carleton patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window article hfz columbia edu ethan columbia edu ethan solomita writes trying figure out how make window manager place the window where the create window command tells regardless what may think right application has reason know better don want set the override redirect because want all the embellishments that the window manager gives just want the accept choice location what may think right may exactly what the user wants assuming that your application has reason know better imho anti social start your application with geometry option are you going ignore that well there really way force window manager much anything managing your window you can ask you can hint but there guarantee that you going get what you want tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window article bading apr athene berlin bading berlin tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow include xutil display display window window xsizehints xsizehints xallocsizehints xsizehints flags usposition ussize pposition psize xsizehints xsizehints xsizehints width xsizehints height xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints xfree xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size the window are specified the users and that the window manager should accept these values you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values the program not the user don know window manager that doesn place the window like you prefer you specify the position and size like above you are right but please don this makes brain hurt usposition and ussize should only set the user specified the position and size you say tom don blow gasket what the harm some window managers very different things besides positioning the window when they see usposition rather than pposition tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	build with xlc aix apr gmt dla waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host waii com having big problem trying build mit with xlc the one bundled with aix its almost the linker not working properly with shared libraries built with problem before but now its all headaches for example the xset client complains that libxmu doesnt have bunch routines and shr missing something like that the build libxmu does link libxt really perplexed what going following this the specific error get could not load program xset symbol xtvasetvalues lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtname lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtgetconstraintresourcelist lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtappsettypeconverter lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtscreendatabase lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtresolvepathname lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtcvtstringtofont lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtcallconverter lib xmu libxmu undefined symbol xtdisplaystringconversionwarning lib xmu libxmu undefined could not load library libxmu shr error was exec format error douglas acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker waii com voice
comp.windows.x	compiling sun article yfo qfe qzz andrew cmu edu wilson swee andrew cmu edu writes sin cos pow floor link with math library get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass this bug sun shared libraries linking with assert nodefinitions should the trick
comp.windows.x	build with xlc aix apr gmt dla waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host waii com apr gmt dla waii com doug acker said doug nntp posting host waii com doug having big problem trying build mit with xlc doug the one bundled with aix its almost the linker not doug working properly with shared libraries doug built with problem before but now its all headaches doug for example the xset client complains that libxmu doesnt have bunch doug routines and shr missing something like that the doug build libxmu does link libxt really perplexed what doug going doug following this the specific error get doug could not load program xset doug symbol xtvasetvalues lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtname lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtwindowofobject lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtgetconstraintresourcelist lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtdisplaytoapplicationcontext lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtappsettypeconverter lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtscreendatabase lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtresolvepathname lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtcvtstringtofont lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtcallconverter lib xmu libxmu undefined doug symbol xtdisplaystringconversionwarning lib xmu libxmu undefined doug could not load library libxmu shr doug error was exec format error search ibmlink revealed that this similar howervre this was closed use douglas acker western geophysical exploration products division western atlas international inc litton dresser company internet acker waii com voice
comp.windows.x	positioning window under openlook there netters require window appear ordinates top left corner screen root window could some windows guru out there help how about doing this write the whole program which creates the window with the image displays require the image appear the top left corner that can grab for recording video using minivas controller which expects the window the same spot every time thanks advance sincerely sanjeev sharma office mail deptt computing science sharma monet vill edu villanova university
comp.windows.x	tape down selections just had idea not sure its been done and just remembering unconsiously but thought that dialog boxes and whatever windowing systems there should way intuitivly set some things checked unchecked filled certain way idea tape you know like putting piece tape over light switch just idea you like use daniel drucker sxx xyzzy gnu mit edu forever forever coda und dzd vaxc hofstra edu
comp.windows.x	xman source where can get xman source would like get the binaries for xman for but would settle for source john long bnr inc there god who pops jlong bnr the next kleenex include standard disclaimer art hoppe
comp.windows.x	detecting read only colorcells again poseted for friend okay got such great response from last question thanks everyone lets try again how can tell colorcell read only want use any read only cells that are already colormap once start running out allocatable cells using some arbitrary nearest color matching scheme get those cells that come closest requested color once determine cell read only assume can then just request xalloccolor with the exact same color specifications and will then flagged used application that doesn later get freed someone else and allocated again read write another application far the only way figured out this write own error handler and just ahead and request the cells colors once colormap all full should error out the cell non shareable but life would much easier could just detect the read only shareable stuff directly any ideas noel ngorelic speclab usgs gov
comp.windows.x	colormaps and window managers article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu mouse thunder mcrcim mcgill edu der mouse writes article duhc cmu edu das cmu edu david simon writes can some one please explain why the following piece code causes twm tvtwm dump core particular interested knowing whether this behavior caused bug reasoning bug twm anything client does causes twm dump core bug twm window managers should never ever crash would only were true only mit would fix the twm installwindowcolormaps crash bug once and for all then could say that almost unable crash either twm tvtwm which would remarkable feat and most desirable boot mean this bug has only been reported zillion times now now servers the other hand want crash openwindows xnews server will just xbiff xrm xbiff shapewindow blammo greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	tvtwm xsetroot and sparcstation keyboard article genesis ait psu edu barr pop psu edu david barr writes article mailqueue oak shu haywood sheffield hallam writes environment sun sparc sunos patch level process started xdm okay that good typing this from exactly the same setup unix layout keyboard did install the sunkbd patch though when open xterm the sparc not all the keys are recognised and some keys the keyboard are not sending the correct characters did you install the sunkbd patch the contrib directory export all the keys keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown the key cluster aren recognized even the compose key works though can seem get the composed characters xterm get passed anyone have fix for the last two don know anything about sunkbd patch but use the following xmodmap file run from xinitrc via xmodmap home xmodmap course for type unix keyboard bit brute force however sun type unix keyboard remappings this remaps the arrow keys properly default the arrow keys the keypad shift shift left shift right and shift down work but the arrow keys are not assigned any keysym keycode keycode left keycode down keycode right now want the back space key emit the delete keysym keycode delete other random mappings that aren default sysrq print screen key keycode sunsys req print break pause key keycode break pause alt graph key keycode mode switch pageup key keycode prior pagedown key keycode next insert key keycode insert home end keys open look functions stop key sunstop keysym cancel keycode sunstop again key sunagain redo keycode sunagain props key keycode sunprops undo key sunundo undo keycode sunundo front key keycode sunfront copy key keycode suncopy open key keycode sunopen paste key keycode sunpaste find key sunfind find keycode sunfind cut key keycode suncut greg earle phone fax internet earle isolar tujunga uucp isolar earle elroy jpl nasa gov elroy isolar earle
comp.windows.x	question regarding overlaying graphics hello wonder some one can suggest answer the following question total novice and would appreciate any suggestions you may have trying create simple drawing tool let say have two rectangles the canvas see above one intersecting the other now would like delete one the rectangles the way create another wherein use the gxxor logical function and simply redraw the rectangle using the newly created graphics context thus deleting for all apparent purposes problem with this approach that the points intersection the pixel locations belonging the other rectangle also become white which something that should avoided there any way can avoid this problem without having redraw the other rectangle too also would not like generate expose event for the affected area this degrades performance very badly thank you gopal
comp.windows.x	terminal question simple question all the xperts possible use several terminals with only one mouse and one keyboard any suggestions thanks rainer rainer hochreiter telephone elin energieanwendung gesmbh telefax penzingerstr wien austria europe mail rainer elin
comp.windows.x	ncsa mosaic for available version ncsa mosaic for the window system networked information systems and world wide web browser hereby released file ftp ncsa uiuc edu mosaic xmosaic source xmosaic tar xmosaic binaries xmosaic sun xmosaic binaries xmosaic sgi xmosaic binaries xmosaic ibm xmosaic binaries xmosaic dec xmosaic binaries xmosaic alpha xmosaic diffs xmosaic diffs ncsa mosaic provides consistent and easy use hypermedia based interface into wide variety networked information sources including gopher wais world wide web nntp usenet news techinfo ftp local filesystems archie finger hyper hytelnet texinfo telnet and more this release ncsa mosaic known compile the following platforms sgi irix ibm aix sun sunos with stock and motif and gcc dec ultrix dec alpha axp osf documentation available online changes since include added new resource gethostbynameisevil for sun that coredump when gethostbyname called try find out what their own names are command line flag ghbnie explicitly pop down all dialog boxes when document view window closed for window managers too dull themselves better visited anchor color for non sgi added hqx and list file extensions handled like tar files added clear button open box allow more convenient cut paste entries url new resource autoplacewindows set false new document view windows will not automatically positioned the program itself but still your window manager just how they placed command line flags and iconic now have desired effect new resource initialwindowiconic can also used gif reading code little more bulletproof obscure infinite loop triggered extra space img tag fixed eliminated nonintuitive error message when image can read inlined ncsa bitmap indication enough that something not right for authors and readers can anything about bad images any case obscure parsing bug for constructs like address href text address fixed fixed mysterious stupid coredump that only hits suns fixed stupid coredump url like cbl leeds fixed buglet handling rlogin url new support for solaris sysvr courtesy dana thumper bellcore com better support for and courtesy johns hpwarf wal com better support for next courtesy scott shrug dur some miscellaneous portability fixes courtesy bingle purdue edu miscellaneous bug fixes and cleanups comments questions and bug reports should sent mosaic ncsa uiuc edu thanks advance for any feedback you can provide cheers marc marc andreessen software development group national center for supercomputing applications marca ncsa uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	wanted info dedicated server kernel for sun series anyone has any information about the existence location dedicated server kernel for the sun please send email trying put some neglected sun good use but they don have enough memory for sunos thanks advance for any help there free program called xkernel which does just that seth robertson seth ctr columbia edu takes sun and boots limited kernel which allows you run converted machines over this semester and the speedup enormously appreciable find them faster than ncd inch black white xterminal that are playing with and bigger screen boot matter fact the department just bought some old sun auction convert xkernel available for anonymous ftp from ftp ctr columbia edu xkernel xkernel shar xkernel symlink the latest version xkernel note that the compiled version which available for the sun but compiling work for sun should quite easy not connected with xkernel except satisfied installer and user may able answer questions feel free email greg owen gowen forte tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and tufts university computer science dept all transfers are disclaimed host name and boss address you don like this policy disconnect now
comp.windows.x	animation think you tried send message the animation query posted comp windows appended what received below you can remember what you typed appreciate another attempt derek derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam begin included message from aol com postmaster thu apr received cast ast cam smail nlsg mpc cast ast cam thu apr bst received from sco prod aol net prod aol net with smtp wed apr from postmaster aol com mailer america online mailer dcr mail ast cam subject returned mail unknown member date wed apr edt message aol com status the mail you sent could not delivered was addressed unknown user the text you sent follows new this group please bear with two years ago wrote sunview application for fast animation raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete finally decided rewrite everything from scratch xview put together quick test and found that xputimage considerably slower factor average than the sunview command rop which moves image data from memory pixrects canvas this was sparc ipx seems that the protocol communication slowing things down xputimage inefficient both question what the fastest way dump plane image data window can take advantage the fact that the client running the same machine the server stuck with xputimage which case might well give now all help appreciated thanks derek derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam headers from uupsi expo lcs mit edu xpert mailer wed apr remote from aolsys received from uupsi aolsys aol com wed apr edt received from expo lcs mit edu psi com psi psinet via smtp for wed apr received expo lcs mit edu wed apr received from enterpoop mit edu expo lcs mit edu wed apr received enterpoop mit edu wed apr received from usenet enterpoop with netnewsfor xpert expo lcs mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu contact usenet enterpoop you have questions xpert expo lcs mit edu date wed apr gmt from dcr mail ast cam derek richardson message apr infodev cam organization institute astronomy cambridge reply dcr mail ast cam subject animation with xputimage end included message
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article mlb semi harris com jmartin egret imagesrus john martin writes animation most frequently done copying the the client resident ximages into server resident pixmap using xputimage once this done the original ximages can deleted and the animation loop can performed using xcopyarea from the pixmaps the windows drawable hope this helpfull john just implemented this and seems can just about achieve the display rates frames sec ipx that get with sunview though bit choppy times also loading the data making ximage then xput ing into pixmap bit cumbersome the animation slower load than with sunview there better way load the data rgooch csiro richard gooch writes you need speed and your client can run the same host the server you should use the shared memory extension the sample server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you your server has this extension this certainly available with the sample mit server running under sunos word warning make sure your kernel configured support shared memory and another word warning openwindows slower than the mit server have written imaging tool using xview for the gui the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running sparc ipc half the cpu grunt ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch shared memory putimage also mentioned nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but need someone point some documentation this method likely give better results than server resident pixmaps also interested looking the xview code mentioned above thanks for the help far get something decent put together definitely post the net derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam
comp.windows.x	what determines the default font running under openwindows normal programs not having font specified always show the same font until change the fontpath and restart windows then new default font used until the next change can seem figure out how chooses there some way set this possibly something xdefaults please reply direct email summarize kurt swanson dept computer science lunds universitet kurt swanson dna lth
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window bading berlin tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow xsizehints flags usposition ussize pposition psize xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size the window are specified the users and that the window manager should accept these values you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values the program not the user don know window manager that doesn place the window like you prefer you specify the position and size like above sorry but olwm and tvtwm don they place the title that position and the window position below this becomes problem when you want program able save its current configuration and restore later currently solution xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow works with olwm but less than elegant all this leaves wondering overlooking something obvious richard
comp.windows.x	overriding default behaviour usually when start application first get the window outline display then have click the mouse button actually place the window the screen yet when specify the geometry option the window appears right away the properties specified the geometry argument the question now how can override the intermediary step the user having specify window position with mouseclick tried explicitly setting window size and position but that did alter the normal program behaviour thanks for any hints robert working plain robert gasch der erste mai ist der tag dem die stadt ins oracle engineering freihe tritt und den staatlichen monopolanspruch meern auf gewalt frage stellt rgasch oracle com einstuerzende neubauten
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article apr infodev cam dcr mail ast cam derek richardson writes two years ago wrote sunview application for fast animation raster files with sunview becoming rapidly obselete finally decided rewrite everything from scratch xview put together quick test and found that xputimage considerably slower factor average than the sunview command rop which moves image data from memory pixrects canvas this was sparc ipx seems that the protocol communication slowing things down xputimage inefficient both question what the protocol has move the whole image from process memory server memory this the hog the conversions the xputimage are fast the fastest way dump plane image data window can take advantage the fact that the client running the same machine the server stuck with yes utilizing the mit shm extension that provides xputimage derivate that uses shared memory fine fast xputimage which case might well give now you can still xputimage all the frames onto pixmaps thus moving them server memory and then replay them fastest using xcopyarea but aware this major server memory bummer brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	dxf format display looking for app that will display dxf files these are ascii text files that are normally associated with autocad have large meg file the state wisconsin that would like views and cut into smaller chunks also would like find complete file layout for dxf files any information would appreciated patrick mcgillan computer systems specialist university wisconsin superior wisconsin pmcgilla uwsuper edu
comp.windows.x	window for window package exists that runs dos and maybe windows would very happy hear about thanx advance eigil krogh sorensen
comp.windows.x	vanishing font problem colleague has bizarre font problem his new mips workstation when first logs via xdm has single xterm window appear with the mwm window manager running this configuration windows applications particularly xdvi work fine however opens second xterm application suddenly xdvi cannot start either window giving the error unable load iso font the only difference between the two xterm windows that the initial one references different name the xsession file with prettier colours and other slight changes further investigation shows that only opening default xterm causes this behaviour and more significant all applications can longer load any fonts they are invoked from the command line either window start the xterm with different font using the option problems would seem that the default xterm loading font which somehow causes the server lose all its fonts note xlsfonts either window shows all the fonts available there doesn appear problem the font directories hash tables other than rewriting the xterm app defaults file use different font and hope for the best does anyone have any ideas more info this the most recent mips workstation believe with the most current operating system and running not mwm fault the same problems occur under twm etc
comp.windows.x	postscript terminal have problem when using postscript when working local sun sparcstaton ipc the postscript works good but when connect the sun from terminal just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect the news display why doesn postscript work terminal there any way make work henrik henrik hjort hjort
comp.windows.x	image processing packages under prateek mishra mishra sunysb edu wrote looking for package that implements standard image processing functions reading writing from standard formats clipping zoom etc implemented under both public domain and private packages are interest the particular application area have mind medical imaging but package meant for more general context would acceptable please reply will summarize the net there general interest prateek mishra mishra sbcs sunysb edu keep tabs with the faq sci image processing there quite comprehensive compilation image processing included ftp imagemagick and its great check out the faq its all there
comp.windows.x	strange problem with text hello testing port coherent unix clone for intel architecture machines seeing strange problem with text clients like xvt simple terminal emulator program the problem manifests self when the shell echoes typed characters back the server for display one time the characters appear too closely spaced with the result being that the character echoed destroys the rightmost edge the first character then the character destroys the rightmost edge the second character and looks like there invisible boundary around character which obscures portion the previous character there problem between the characters when the shell returns complete line text only when the output series individual characters anyone has any ideas what the problem might where should look find would much appreciated regards and thanks jon dhuse jon dhuse internet jdhuse sedona intel com intel corp phone chandler blvd any opinions expressed are own chandler not employer
comp.windows.x	cxterm mips hello has anyone built cxterm mips platform you have please send email don read this group bunch questions thanks edward greshko control data taiwan voice nanking east road section fax taipei taiwan
comp.windows.x	repost accelerators translations sdennis cad slb com sdennis osf org writes posted this while ago and didn receive one reply and now have another bug report the same subject can anybody help out the problem that motif uses xgrabkey implement menu accelerators and these grabs are specific about which modifiers apply unfortunately the specification for xgrabkey doesn allow anymodifier combined with other modifiers which exactly what would desired this case ctrl any key ora vol the section accelerators says for information how specify translation tables see vol this you know what put for the xmnaccelerator resource you vol says likewise modifier specified there nothing prohibit other modifiers from being present well for example the translation shift key quit will take effect even the ctrl key held down the same time the shift key and the key this true for accelerators and mnemonics which are implemented using event handlers instead grabs not true for menu accelerators you motif implementor suggest lobbying get the xlib semantics changed support the feature described above otherwise change the documentation for menu accelerators properly set the user expectations because menu accelerators are not the same thing translations possible supply accelerator for menu entry you mean menu accelerator not possible that according the definition the xmnaccelerator resource the xmlabel manual page keep mind when answering this question that when using motif you can use xtinstallaccelerators can think reason why not how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent case what want ctrl and ctrl both accelerators one menu entry there workaround for motif users addition the normal menu accelerator you install the xmpushbutton gadget set xtnaccelerators resource the shell toplevel application install the shell accelerators itself and all its descendants with xtinstallallaccelerators shell shell for example applicationshell mainwindow menubar filecascade filepulldown openpushbutton exitpushbutton openpushbutton accelerator ctrl key openpushbutton acceleratortext ctrl exitpushbutton accelerator ctrl key exitpushbutton acceleratortext ctrl applicationshell accelerators override ctrl key performaction openpushbutton armandactivate ctrl key performaction exitpushbutton armandactivate you have write and add the application action performaction which you can implement using xtnametowidget the first argument and then xtcallactionproc with the rest the arguments tested out something similar this shorten development time used teleuse tuninstallaccelerators resource install the accelerators the shell and directly invoked the open and quit actions instead asking the pushbuttons for but the more general approach described above should work trevor bourget trevor telesoft com
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article apr infodev cam dcr mail ast cam derek richardson writes just implemented this and seems can just about achieve the display rates frames sec ipx that get with sunview though bit choppy times also loading the data making ximage then xput ing into pixmap bit cumbersome the animation slower load than with sunview there better way load the data rgooch csiro richard gooch writes you need speed and your client can run the same host the server you should use the shared memory extension the sample server mit shm xdpyinfo will tell you your server has this extension this certainly available with the sample mit server running under sunos word warning make sure your kernel configured support shared memory and another word warning openwindows slower than the mit server have written imaging tool using xview for the gui the way which yields over frames per second for bit images running sparc ipc half the cpu grunt ipx this has proved quite sufficient for animations regards richard gooch shared memory putimage also mentioned nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but need someone point some documentation this method likely give better results than server resident pixmaps also interested looking the xview code mentioned above thanks for the help far get something decent put together definitely post the net the mit tapes come with documentation written keith packard the shared memory extension look mit doc extensions mit shm found this invaluble unfortunately there bit work set the shared memory segments making ximage from etc also there extension query determine the server supports but you still need test the server running the same host and shared memory enabled the kernel have written layers convience routines which make all this transparent for the xview code well doubt that would considered interesting the interesting stuff done object library people interested this code can email regards richard gooch rgooch atnf csiro
comp.windows.x	need help with key bindings need help binding some value the home and end keys keyboard have aix ext running mit dist using running exceed for windows xterminal the home and end keys not send value and application needs them defined used this xdefaults define the keys varnet translations override key home string key end string then xterm name varnet this works perfect however the and the key keypad are also defined and any ideas help please thanks egan ford egan phony utah edu hellgate utah edu
comp.windows.x	core dump from getcons are getting memory fault and core dump whenever end motif session under ultrix running dec examintion the core file leads believe from getcons does anyone know what this all about marc marc wiener marc aip org american institute physics sunnyside blvd voice woodbury fax
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article nrao edu rgooch csiro richard gooch writes the mit tapes come with documentation written keith packard the shared memory extension look mit doc extensions mit shm found this invaluble unfortunately there bit work set the shared memory segments making ximage from etc also there extension query determine the server supports but you still need test the server running the same host and shared memory enabled the kernel have written layers convience routines which make all this transparent for the xview code well doubt that would considered interesting the interesting stuff done object library people interested this code can email regards richard gooch rgooch atnf csiro thanks for docs info turns out that leave out colormap updates between frames and use tvtwm tests with frames ipx using the server resident pixmap method give astonishing frames per second and very smooth think found the best solution thanks the generous help this group however may have colormap questions later derek derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage dcr mail ast cam derek richardson writes shared memory putimage also mentioned nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but need someone point some documentation this method likely give better results than server resident pixmaps also interested looking the xview code mentioned above there documentation how use the shared memory extension the distribution actually just finished writing motif animation program take lots image data and display pretty darn fast when using server pixmaps shared memory had insert delay loop keep from going too quickly testing both methods side side they were just about equal the advantage shm that your server doesn grow ridiculous sizes but pixmaps can work over network and are removed your application dies one tends use ipcrm manually quite bit when debugging shm apps shared memory also has the problem that some operating systems ultrix seem allow only small number segments attached process once consequently redraw becomes xshmattach xshmputimage xshmdetach dec systems and dec bit displays like the ones tend use most often don seem support the extension maybe someone compiled them wrong and using pixmaps causes the server crash failed mallocs one has use the local unix domain socket which really isn that bad one copies the info three times per redraw instead one short allowing all three forms display within the program good thing minus shm running over network and let the user pick whatever feels fastest just use ximagehandler class and forget about rob
comp.windows.x	pixmaps and colormaps sent through selections want able send pixmap from one client the next along with this want send the colormap and foreground and background pixel values far not problem can this with problem however once have the pixmap and the colormap how about telling the server that the second receiving client now wants have associations with the two tia john john cwikla programmer was never the first wolfram research inc letter the alphabet cwikla wri com
comp.windows.x	dynamic squeezetitle configuration twm consider twm style squeezed titles indispensable window manager like have two tall xterm windows visible the same time with overlap and since two windows aren enough have other xterm windows underneath them with exactly the same positioning case you not familiar with squeezed titles here crude picture figure title title title this the window hides window but body the you can still see title window window which squeezed right figure squeezed titles allow have about such windows each stack with easy access and per stack usually more than really need since also insist having virtual the only problem that the title location static that configured twmrc and order change you have edit that file and restart the window manager doing cumbersome and time consuming therefore have implemented squeeze left center right functions own copy vtwm the idea being that with one click button you can change this title this the body the window window this title this the body the window window okay far good now how the heck get them put this into the next official twm and the next tvtwm and the next vtwm and the next ctwm and the next xyztwm that never heard one way would post comp windows description this enhancement together with explanation why think very good thing and hope that someone reads case isn already clear why think very good thing look back figure and picture window moved over top windows and now window title hides window title but when you hit squeezecenter the result title title title this the body the window window which top the rest this posting explains how implement based copy vtvwm shar just sketch because posting the full diffs would too long the key this enhancement add the following lines the executefunction routine menus ifdef shape case squeezeleft static squeezeinfo left squeeze left deferexecution context func scr selectcursor return true tmp win squeeze info left squeeze setframeshape tmp win break and similarly for squeezeright right and squeezecenter center endif course you also have define squeezeleft parse and add squeezeleft fkeyword squeezeleft and forth parse order use these functions add something like the following your twmrc file button door squeezecenter about year ago posted this but our news was broken and think didn get out since then blast has appeared comp sources volume issue you could use blast achieve similar effect chiseling away mwm style wide title better have twm style window manager think ralph betza uunet ssiny gnohmon gnohmon ssiny com the question whether computer can swim more interesting than the question whether submarine can think lenny dykstra
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage shared memory putimage also mentioned nkissebe delphi beckman uiuc edu nick kisseberth looks interesting but need someone point some documentation this method likely give better results than server resident pixmaps also interested looking the xview code mentioned above there easy answer this question depends whether the display device can hold pixmaps off screen memory and how efficiently the server manages these resources having deal with limited off screen memory the bane the server implementor existence have worked with graphics devices where the off screen memory main display copy rate eclipses that the main memory display copy rate and with those where the main memory display faster than off screen display requires only write the framebuffer rather than read the followed write your server uses the cfb code something like render into pixmaps cpu main memory the rates you can get through mit shm are likely equal maybe tad slower depending your implementation shared memory copyarea from pixmap window which also then just copy from cpu main memory graphics device one advanage mit shm that your images are large you don end growing the size the server process hold them one disadvantage the mit shm that its sample implementation there provision for elegantly cleaning the shared memory segments the client dies sudden violent death kill you have mindful cluttering the system with zombie shared memory segments ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara
comp.windows.x	help xlib and include files xperts have sparc with very limited disk space usr partition previously was able run all windows applications and then upgraded system sun and realized that the hard disk did not have enough space load openwindows immediate alternative was load only the neccessary files boot the system this resulted not loading openwindows result which none the libraries got loaded trying load just the libraries and include files and bin files required for running windows and compiling programs written for xlib and xaw desperate effort regain windows retrieved usr lib libx files from the tape usr bin and usr include this enough for running windows but did not get usr lib fonts sub directories these are mainly dpi dpi and misc when run xinit the error message says usr lib fonts dpi etc are not the default path but the problem cannot load any those directories there disk space are there any temporary suggestions before get disk and load openwindows just have windows running thanks pramod
comp.windows.x	writing motif widget can anyone give some information please need probably write one more new motif widgets the platform need the motif private header files and source can make with the public headers that are provided motif includes this context one widget multi column list which lots people have already written sure and would therefore probably subclass list rather than something simple like class this more difficult principle not lines code alternatively anyone has multi column list widget they could sell this might save from having write one does any chance exist motif already not yet have the spec answers appreciated nicholas nicholas young
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window article bub wsinfo win tue rcb wsinfo win tue richard verhoeven writes bading berlin tobias doping bading writes try this after xcreatewindow xsizehints flags usposition ussize pposition psize xsetwmnormalhints display window xsizehints these hints tell the window manager that the position and size the window are specified the users and that the window manager should accept these values you use xsizehints flags pposition psize this tells the window manager that the values are prefered values the program not the user don know window manager that doesn place the window like you prefer you specify the position and size like above sorry but olwm and tvtwm don they place the title that position and the window position below the reason they place their outside corner the location you requested because that what the icccm says they should this becomes problem when you want program able save its current configuration and restore later currently solution xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow this code will almost certainly break calling xmapwindow and then xflush does not guarantee that the window visible and managed the window manager even this did work there isn reliable way find out how much decoration the window manager placed around your window you don know how far move and what the window manager refuses move your window tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	postscript terminal have problem when using postscript when working local sun sparcstation ipc the postscript works good but when connect the sun from terminal just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect the news display why doesn postscript work terminal because xterminals not have news server xterminals have speed nature their limited functionality once you add news and everything else you have workstation there are workarounds heard one involving perl script what are trying replace programs that need news like pageview with programs that don like ghostview maybe someone else can elaborate the perl workaround have personal experience with greg owen gowen forte tufts edu gowen jade tufts edu systems programmer and tufts university computer science dept all transfers are disclaimed host name and boss address you don like this policy disconnect now
comp.windows.x	colormaps with dialog shells have applicationshell which uses colormap created with xcreatecolormap and uses all the colors available for bit display when move the cursor over the window get the technicolor effect which fine basically program works problem question when popup dialogshell prompt the user for some input want the xmndialogstyle set xmdialog primary application modal the result that cursor over the dialogshell get colormap but the cursor over the applicationshell any window other than the dialogshell get the default colormap but like that cursor over any window application get colormap any suggestions thanks david
comp.windows.x	looking for xserver for subject says all anyone know where can find one binaries are nice but source would thanks advance rob banz banz umbc edu give people alternative microsoft will have been greater good steve jobs unixworld april yes bill are your father ibm presentation fose
comp.windows.x	wcl have problem when compiled wcl sco odt usr include getresl getresl getresl error xtconstraintbit undefined error code although follow the instructions file readme build build wcl sco platform this problem didn resolve have some questions related this matter does xtconstraintbit exist sco odt does xtconstraintbit use and what release does sco odt use not does someone know how work around
comp.windows.x	xterm with status line and color looking for version xterm which handles color and style status lines can anyone out there help thanks
comp.windows.x	problem running aix info from sun rlogin shell when run our info utility through remote login shell rlogin from sun sparc can longer type lower case any info window prompt thought the prob may have been due sun window mgr openlook being incompatible with the aix motif application but tried under tvtwm also same result this presumably key definition problem between workstations but system admins feign ignorance what need the able type lower case into this remote aix motif app from within local openlook window manager wayne long internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax
comp.windows.x	repost accelerators translations article apr telesoft com trevor telesoft com trevor bourget ignite writes sdennis cad slb com sdennis osf org writes posted this while ago and didn receive one reply and now have another bug report the same subject can anybody help out the problem that motif uses xgrabkey implement menu accelerators and these grabs are specific about which modifiers apply unfortunately the specification for xgrabkey doesn allow anymodifier combined with other modifiers which exactly what would desired this case ctrl any key ora vol the section accelerators says for information how specify translation tables see vol this you know what put for the xmnaccelerator resource you vol says likewise modifier specified there nothing prohibit other modifiers from being present well for example the translation shift key quit will take effect even the ctrl key held down the same time the shift key and the key this true for accelerators and mnemonics which are implemented using event handlers instead grabs not true for menu accelerators you motif implementor suggest lobbying get the xlib semantics changed support the feature described above otherwise change the documentation for menu accelerators properly set the user expectations because menu accelerators are not the same thing translations possible supply accelerator for menu entry you mean menu accelerator not possible that according the definition the xmnaccelerator resource the xmlabel manual page keep mind when answering this question that when using motif you can use xtinstallaccelerators can think reason why not how can you ensure that accelerators work the same independent case what want ctrl and ctrl both accelerators one menu entry find this thread motif accelerators absoultly amazing were writing interface keyboard accelerators would have one resource called accelerators that took translation table period would also implement that programmer never has any work get the accelerators installed soon the end user specified one would active and automatically installed get multiple accelerators single menu item something like menuitem accelerators override ctrl key fire shift key fire the accelerators would work exactly like translations and you would automatically see ctrl show your menuitem object why the world the motif stuff complicated with many different special cases depending what type widget you dealing with there has some reason sorry for the political tone this message tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article whaley apr sigma kpc com whaley sigma kpc com ken whaley writes one advanage mit shm that your images are large you don end growing the size the server process hold them correct most servers use version malloc which will not return memory the the server might free pixmap but the heap does not shrink one disadvantage the mit shm that its sample implementation there provision for elegantly cleaning the shared memory segments the client dies sudden violent death kill you have mindful cluttering the system with zombie shared memory segments well part the routines mentioned dirty little trick get around that problem first create the shared memory segment attach the client attach the server and then remove the segment you read the man pages removing shared memory segments you will see that the segment only dies after all attachments are gone now the client dies that one attachment gone the cleans for you and since the server notices the client has dies frees resources including detaching from the segment there goes the last attachment more shared memory segment terrible but works regards richard gooch
comp.windows.x	xterm patches for alpha osf well after massaging the dec osf def can remember the exact names from osf into normal distribution everything compiles and links fine but xterm doesn run warning representation size must match superclass override background warning translation table syntax error modifier expected warning found while parsing error failed request badcolor invalid colormap parameter major opcode failed request allocnamedcolor resource failed request serial number failed request current serial number output stream other than this all the other core stuff seems working any hints tips appreciated patches would primo thanks jaye mathisen coe systems manager roberts hall dept computer science montana state university bozeman osyjm montana edu
comp.windows.x	widget translation problem writing custom widget support the display graphics and imagery the user the widget will able specify when creating whether operate mode have set translations and actions handle mouse button presses they work fine when the widget mode mode they only work when the widget widget child manager put another way the translations not work when the widget configured mode and child shell does anyone know why this happening thanks advance bruce gendler bgendler csc com
comp.windows.x	text field dialog widget doesn get focus using the glx widget athena widgets mixed model application under dwm but when the dialog gets popped its text entry field does not have focus aimilar code works perfectly use pure mixed model here the relevant portion the code int arg wargs widget button popupshell dialog initialize toplevel here xtsetarg wargs xtnlabel foo button xtcreatemanagedwidget foobtn commandwidgetclass toplevel wargs popupshell xtcreatepopupshell pupshell overrideshellwidgetclass button null xtaddcallback popupshell xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell xtsetarg wargs xtnvalue dialog xtcreatemanagedwidget thedialog dialogwidgetclass popupshell wargs void mypopup popup shell call data widget widget popup shell xtpointer call data xtpopup popup shell xtgrabexclusive way found give focus the text field move the application window around little bit and place right behind the popup any pointers would greatly appreciated
comp.windows.x	correction last posting glx lack cous dialog widget the code sent please replace the line xtaddcallback popupshell xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell xtaddcallback button xtncallback mypopup xtpointer popupshell the rest and question remains the same dan
comp.windows.x	dell eisa video cards this belongs comp windows unix redirected followups article sshu cbi gator com larry gator com larry snyder writes does xfree support any eisa video cards under dell larry snyder larry gator com know for fact that the eisa version the orchid prodesigner iis works however eisa svga card likely waste money when xfree comes out with support for accelerated chipsets isa eisa and vlb will all supported the more important question what chipsets are supported the bus basically irrelevent compatibility issue david wexelblat dwex mtgzfs att com fax bell laboratories laurel ave middletown xfree requests should addressed xfree physics love like oxygen you get too much you get too high not enough and you gonna die sweet love like oxygen
comp.windows.x	question regarding overlaying graphics let say have two rectangles the canvas see above one intersecting the other now would like delete one the rectangles the way create another wherein use the gxxor logical function and simply redraw the rectangle using the newly created graphics context thus deleting for all apparent purposes problem with this approach that the points intersection the pixel locations belonging the other rectangle also become white which something that should avoided you could set bitmap with mask clear the bitmap draw the rectangle deleted with gxor draw the one that stay with gxclear then gxxor the entire pixmap with the screen note that this pretty effective way animation you ever need that replace the gxclear with gxxor joe hildebrand hildjj fuentez com software engineer fuentez systems concepts standard disclaimers apply
comp.windows.x	keysym database problems having problems with motif application that when run another machine with different paths etc can find the xkeysymdb file this causes large warning output warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfactivate warning found while parsing key osfactivate managerparentactivate warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfcancel warning found while parsing key osfcancel managerparentcancel warning translation table syntax error unknown keysym name osfselect warning found while parsing key osfselect managergadgetselect etc the file different location but seems only look for the place where the machine the app was compiled there any way read the xkeysymdb manually with call that additions the xkeysymdb can distributed with the application have used trace find out what was going but need fix that these translations the application can recognised tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre advanced technology telecommunications brain bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu phone fax
comp.windows.x	mix with xlib mwm article scorpion dps gerard dps gerard driscoll writes pyeatt texaco com writes there widget already defined for the glxmdraw motif glxdraw athena widget similar xmdrawingarea except that allows you use calls render into the window look glxlink glxunlink glxgetconfig and glxwinset the man pages where get hold these widgets gerard driscoll gerard odriscoll dps pont pixel systems ltd they come with every iris now nth also ships with their latest version nth portable just got the update couple weeks ago would assume that silicon graphics would license the source you that you can include your company offering larry pyeatt the views expressed here are not internet pyeatt texaco com those employer anyone voice that know with the possible exception myself
comp.windows.x	writing motif widget article wapj ibmpcug nicholas ibmpcug nicholas young writes need probably write one more new motif widgets the platform need the motif private header files and source can make with the public headers that are provided motif includes this context yes you find almost impossible without the source this point does depend how ambitious you are and how concerned you are about compliance with the general interface and items like traversal one widget multi column list which lots people have already written sure and would therefore probably subclass list rather than something simple like class this more difficult principle not lines code not sure what you asking you could create something which very much like true multi column list placing several lists within geometry manager and putting that manager within automatic scrolled window this wouldn good for very large lists but you might consider this alternative alternatively anyone has multi column list widget they could sell this might save from having write one does any chance exist motif already not yet have the spec motif does not have multi column list have you looked commercial sets there are also some widget sets one these might have multi column list you could port douglas rand drand osf org osf motif dev snail cambridge center cambridge disclaimer don know osf agrees with let vote amateur radio
comp.windows.x	numlock masking interference with meta compose extendchar question this there means determining what the state capslock and numlock alright ignore this have delved bit deeper xkeyevent and found what was looking for state has bunch masks check against lockmask the one for capslock unfortunately appears that the numlock mask varies from server server how does one tell what mask numlock and which are for meta mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask sgi vendor server has mod mask being numlock whereas solaris openwindows has mod mask for numlock there unambiguous means determining numlock mask runtime for any given server sorry for the wasted bandwidth and appalling ignorance thanks ralph
comp.windows.x	trying find papers rosenthal have the march april version the journal open front working programming clients this summer and since don have much experience with programming thought this issue might helpful has section debugging and section the most common errors programming the end the errors section there are the following references for tutorials programming style they are rosenthal david simple client program proceedings the winter usenix conference lemke and rosenthal visualizing clients proceedings the winter usenix conference does anyone know where could find these printed preferably electronic form can you suggest any net resources devoted the introduction programming looking the bookstore for books really only asking about what can find the net thanks david simpson davesimp soda berkeley edu
comp.windows.x	intrinsics slow popups cjhs minster york wrote help running some sample problems from reilly volume intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and example page creating pop dialog box the application creates window with button quit and press the button press pops dialog box the strange feature this program that always pops the dialog box much faster the first time try pop time time much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs why get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from time onwards anyone can give some ideas how program popups that each time they popup reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley thanks those who responded were able prevent this behaviour two methods running twm rather than olwm keeping olwm but putting wmtimeout the resources has been suggested that the difficuty was something with the window manager positioning the popup window any guru who can analyse what going from this information please post and let know thanks shirley
comp.windows.x	question xon folks say new and have one quick question using xon xon machine name notice that always comes with very small window pretty sure its the default font xterms all work normally xon supposed read your xresources for font size xrdb appears show the right stuff can use xon with arguments such xterm etc and everything correct course you could always simple script this but have feeling missing something simple here comments suggestions appreciated thanks advance bob bshaw spdc com
comp.windows.x	gui study cutsie little macintrash like icons that are instant recipe for mousitis imho system undoubtedly the worst gui have used out that riscos mswombles and simply because does not provide enough keyboard shortcuts windows must confess quite like cover your ears because you can actually use without having ever touch the mouse stuff delete the user rather than making things easier and there should always the option your way you want which why like the unix combination much customizable hear hear agree completely one thing can stand about the mac interface its shear determination force you use the mouse what your mouse breaks your whole system down like the mouse handy some occassions such cut and past and moving icons around etc but for most work the keyboard and hot keys are times faster than using the mouse sure plus able something simple you are inexperienced user but how long before your are experienced month two speaking pcs the moment don think too much ask that window programmers provide not only menu mouse interface but also look forward those who would like move hot keys and command line interfaces which usually allows you more less time you are experienced all the above equally applies windowing systems unix especially since unix least more powerful than dos seth buffington gab seth unt edu seth gab unt edu unix operator
comp.windows.x	terminal config file question question what the exact entry parameter and syntax please the terminal configuration file loaded when the terminal boots add another system the tcp access control list background have two unix systems running and mit and sun without any want have window the sun and the the ncd terminal the same time can this manually set the network parameter tcp access control list off then login telnet session not great tried get xhost work and failed either syntax wrong the implementation bogus trying edit the ncd configuration file that loaded when the ncd boots matter what entry add edit the ncd still boots with the tcp access control list containing only the manuals are worthless any help would most appreciated thanks ann marie barden abarden afseo eglin mil
comp.windows.x	error failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter could someone please give guess why this simple little program causes badpixmap error the fourth bizarre call xtrelaizewidget here the code int stoploop static void callback widget xtpointer xtpointer main xttoolkitinitialize xtappcontext app xtcreateapplicationcontext while int junk display dis xtopendisplay app null null null null junk null widget top xtappcreateshell null null applicationshellwidgetclass dis null widget box xtvacreatemanagedwidget xmpushbuttonwidgetclass top xmnheight xmnwidth null xtaddcallback box xmnactivatecallback callback null xtrealizewidget top while stoploop xevent event xtappnextevent app event xtdispatchevent event stoploop xtreleasegc top xdefaultgcofscreen xtscreen top needed xtdestroywidget top xtclosedisplay dis static void callback widget xtpointer xtpointer stoploop the error get yes the time try show the box error failed request badpixmap invalid pixmap parameter major opcode failed request creategc resource failed request serial number failed request current serial number output stream please respond via email thanks very very much note realize this program does nothing useful its ultra trivialized version real library routine david rex wood davewood colorado edu university colorado boulder
comp.windows.x	looking for david smyth article apr nynexst com zvi nynexst com zvi guter writes the author wcl the current care taker his the only name found the dist tree have tried mail him david smyth mchp sni but the mail bounced back any help finding him will greatly appreciated try david uucp david ztivax siemens com xtian name christian mollard email mollard frec bull phone bull fax address bull echirolles cedex france
comp.windows.x	virtual mwm netland thought that once read about the existance virtual mwm like vtwm the usual ftp sites gatakeeper dec com export lcs mit edu can find any trace this program could anybody give hint where find this program confirm deny the existance this program regards stefan
comp.windows.x	installation problem with the process installing sun sparcstation and have run into problem imagine has something with missing screen driver something along those lines but figured someone out there internet land might able help installing machine that already has openlook installed and would like have both installed concurrently thus set compile usr directory worked out all the kinks getting compiled with gcc that compiles without any warnings need installed for pex set all those appropriate flags when run however get message along the lines getting interface configuration operation not supported socket sunopenframebuffer inappropriate ioctl for device fatal server error screens found any ideas how can fix please respond mail the below address thanks advance dan not want immortalized through works want immortalized through not dying woody allen dan kirkpatrick dept electrical computer engineering dsk rice edu rice university uunet rice edu dsk uunet net houston
comp.windows.x	imake cpp problems aix trying build and use imake ibm running aix having the following problems many imakefile have contructs like this makefile the start lines pass makefile comments thru the preprocessor and into the makefile most the preprocessors that have used will not treat such appearing the start the line thus the preprocessor does not treat the hash symbol the start directive however the ibm cpp strips the comment and treats the hash symbol the start directive the cpp fails when determines that this not known directive have temporarily hacked imake handle this situation but would like come with better fix several imakefiles use parameter macro when particular use the macro does not need value for the parameter the aix cpp gives warnings about these situations but continues work you are familiar with these problems and have solutions would appreciate information about your solutions perhaps this solved later version imake that have not reviewed also you know other cpp that behave similarly since not have easy access news response white billy gis prc com would appreciated
comp.windows.x	imake dos and windows has anyone had experience porting imake dos using microsoft watcom any other dos compiler since not have easy access news response white billy gis prc com would appreciated
comp.windows.x	post script viewer hello recently have been printing out lot files school laser printer and feeling guilty about please help showing where get post script viewer for windows thank you for your help student trying enhence his cybernatic ability
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window article bub wsinfo win tue rcb wsinfo win tue richard verhoeven writes sorry but olwm and tvtwm don they place the title that position and the window position below this becomes problem when you want program able save its current configuration and restore later currently solution xcreatewindow xsetwmproperties xmapwindow xflush xmovewindow works with olwm but less than elegant all this leaves wondering overlooking something obvious richard know that the mwm has resource specify positions are used for the border window for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position subtract their positions you just have use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window the parent your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way greeting tobias bading berlin
comp.windows.x	animation with xputimage article apr nrao edu rgooch csiro richard gooch writes remove the shared memory segment terrible but works why that terrible that exactly the way our code has been doing for two years now and the way that temporary files unix systems are managed most the time open unlink burkhard neidecker lutz distributed multimedia group cec karlsruhe eerp portfolio manager software motion pictures berkom project multimedia base technology digital equipment corporation neidecker nestvx enet dec com
comp.windows.x	image plotting source code needed looking for source sample how create window with image actually dim matrix unsigned char any help will appreciated
comp.windows.x	question motif diaog shell widget under vuewm dear netters have noticed something rather weared think about creating dialog shell widget while running vue vuewm for some reason every time create dialog shell the foreground and backgroun colors are different compared toplevel shell not doing anything special different does any body know anything about this problem how fix without hardcodin the colors please respond kamlesh salzo cary usa thanks kamlesh
comp.windows.x	benchmarks are the process evaluating terminals this includes running xremote over serial line would like run some benchmarks determine comparative performance has anyone written any such benchmarks know any useful programs the net heard program called xstone but couldn locate using archie please reply afielden mlsma att com don get read this newsgroup much thanks advance for any help andrew fielden network systems tel information systems group sun support email afielden mlsma att com
comp.windows.x	hypercard for unix netlanders does anybody know there something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform thanks advance ron
comp.windows.x	numlock masking interference with meta compose extendchar ralph seguin rps arbortext com wrote question this there means determining what the state capslock and numlock alright ignore this have delved bit deeper xkeyevent and found what was looking for state has bunch masks check against lockmask the one for capslock unfortunately appears that the numlock mask varies from server server how does one tell what mask numlock and which are for meta mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask mod mask sgi vendor server has mod mask being numlock whereas solaris openwindows has mod mask for numlock there unambiguous means determining numlock mask runtime for any given server sorry for the wasted bandwidth and appalling ignorance you have check the keysym each the keys for each modifier the one with numlock its mapping the modifier you want bit ugly perhaps but think its currently the only way this and does have some precedent keysyms are used differentiate capslock from shiftlock for the lock modifier don know accepted strategy for handling ambiguous assignments either what numlock mapped for more then one modifier suppose first found good any doesn handle locking modifiers that well hope that helps dave lapp standard disclaimer etc
comp.windows.x	motif based graphing package need motif based graphing package integrate into large software package under development for distribution universities can either public domain commercial although commercial package can have royalties required for binary only distribution need graphing capabilities minimum but would nice any info would appreciated and will summarize there interest thanks mitch mitchell baltuch unidata program center mitch unidata ucar edu ucar box boulder
comp.windows.x	postscript terminal tried mail you but bounced there article his uucp you write from henhj edit henrik balthazar hjort subject postscript terminal have problem when using postscript when working local sun sparcstaton ipc the postscript works good but when connect the sun from terminal just get error messages that the postscript cannot connect the news display why doesn postscript work terminal there any way make work might that the terminal doesn support the postscript extensions product use the dxpsview program decstation view postscript files but when moved ncd terminal couldn use any more ftp and compiled ghostscript gnu software now can view postscript files our terminals hope this helps grant henrik henrik hjort hjort grant totten programmer analyst trent university peterborough ontario gtotten trentu phone fax take everything stride trample anyone who gets your way
comp.windows.x	hypercard for unix article apr bernina ethz queloz bernina ethz ronald queloz writes netlanders does anybody know there something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform thanks advance ron try metacard hypercard like programming environment chun hong
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window article bading apr athene berlin bading berlin tobias doping bading writes know that the mwm has resource specify positions are used for the border window for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position subtract their positions you just have use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window the parent your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way another way would use getgeometry find out where you are relative the frame and translatecoordinates find out where your window upperleft corner really ethan
comp.windows.x	key definitions emacs prior article ajaffe oddjob uchicago edu andrew jaffe wrote use emacs and want customize keyboard better when set stuff emacs with keymap and define keys can only access certain the keys terminal keyboard can get home end pgup pgdn they all seem have either the same keycode have feeling this can fixed emacs itself but that need some xmodmap stuff can someone help unfortunately the key event handling pretty much hardwired into emacs ran into this problem while back solution was change the source code that all these special keys generated character sequences which basically encoded the keysym and modifier state escape sequences for example the sequence esc would indicate that the home key was pressed with the shift key down you could also detect standard keys with odd modifiers such shift return anybody wants these changes they welcome them but you have have the source available and comfortable munging with bit basically you have replace the keypress handling code the source file term maybe someone osf interested can send them the tweaks but imagine they got bigger fish fry hopefully including the much talked about emacs there sufficient interest post the mods somewhere although this probably isn the appropriate group for notes this special code will only apply you let emacs create its own window you run plain old tty mode which includes xterm windows then business usual the patches made were version under sun also did this while back under the patches are chunk code between sun endif but could easily adapted for anything else mark lanzo qlz lanzo tekelec com
comp.windows.x	title for xterm prior article naoumov physics unc edu sergei naoumov writes hey guys work many stations and would like this name and current logname title xterm when open and machine name only when closed other words want host and logname appear title opened xterm and host when xterm closed how can apologies answering something already answered the faq our news feed has been losing lot articles lately haven seen the faq lately check two ways when you start the xterm you can use command line options icon name set the icon label window title set the window title title window title equivalent window title you can use escape sequences change things the fly the basic escape sequence esc some arbitary text bel where esc and bel are the ascii escape and bell characters ascii decimal digit depending whether you are trying set the window icon title both and some arbitary text your desired label string hence this command will set the window icon title echo your title goes here set just the icon title echo your title goes here set just the window title echo your title goes here course you may have fiddle with exact syntax depending how the echo command works your system and what shell you are using shown system semantics under bourne korn shells hint for sun users use usr bin echo instead bin echo csh built echo otherwise you have embed literal esc and bel characters the string instead using convenient octal sequences you want your titlebar updated continously say show your current directory hostname somesuch then you have see you can coerce your shell into spitting out the appropriate escape sequences when prompts for commands sometimes you can just put the appropriate escape sequence the prompt string itself sometimes not mark lanzo qlz lanzo tekelec com
comp.windows.x	how find appcontext prior article masc ucsnews sdsu edu todd greene said there call give application context fixing motif program and trying use xtappaddtimeout whose first argument the app context what call can use give this value xtappcontext xtwidgettoapplicationcontext widget course just using the app context returned from xtcreateapplicationcontext xtappinitialize etc the best option unless that path not available
comp.windows.x	help xdm solaris recently read here that sun has patch for xdm solaris was wondering anyone could give the patch number thanks advance tracy tolley university central florida technical support
comp.windows.x	problem running aix info from sun rlogin shell bcinn ome sps mot com wcl risc sps mot com wayne long writes when run our info utility through remote login shell rlogin from sun sparc can longer type lower case any info window prompt thought the prob may have been due sun window mgr openlook being incompatible with the aix motif application but tried under tvtwm also same result this presumably key definition problem between workstations but system admins feign ignorance what need the able type lower case into this remote aix motif app from within local openlook window manager wayne long internet wcl risc sps mot com william cannon drive west uucp texas edu oakhill risc wcl austin texas phone fax have had the exact same problem but have not figured out solution run with linux free unix with and openwindows would appreciate any solutions ewz internet ziegenfe moravian edu uucp rutgers lafcol batman ziegenfe
comp.windows.x	xfree need help just got xfree running with consensys and encountered few minor hope probems the hooked lan where want remote applications connect server believe the command permit this xhost when logged and type xhost get the error message saying you must local machine enable access what does this mean ain already the local machine another problem have with the mouse movement find that the mouse cursor moves extremely slow and choppy how can make the mouse cursor move more accurately thank advance any help much appreciated please send replies christy alex christy
comp.windows.x	summary xon and folks thanks the ones that replied however problem turned out very simple xresources had space after xterm font removing this and xrdb fixed problem also same symptom was that some users did not have the proper capitals for xterm font thanks again bob
comp.windows.x	load the network can someone point the direction any papers not necessarily formally conducted studies discussing how much traffic apps generate for the network particularly comparison with curses bases apps over telnet also does server typically buffer user keyboard input line time can the client control this asking for keystrokes immediately thanks advance for any feedback bob kline phoenix systems inc bkline occs nlm nih gov voice
comp.windows.x	athena widgets where find the athena widgets that are needed for xtdm thanks advance
comp.windows.x	subscribe subscribe min stella skku
comp.windows.x	need shading program example article tgv com mahan tgv com patrick mahan writes anyone know about any shading program based xlib the public domain need example about how allocate correct colormaps for the program appreciate the help don know this might help but just started playing with program called povray persistance vision raytracer that also displays its output via windows does fairly good job allocating the colormap psuedo color plane display got the source from from site canda the person retrieved them from was david buck dbuck ccs carleton think the original post was searching for existing implementations gouroud shading triangles this fairly complex with plain simpler shading models are implemented already ask archie where get the latest version for gouroud fast implementation will possible utilizing some extension only either mit shm the shade image and fast update the window with pex opengl which should able shade themselves the portable vanilla way would shade normal ximage and use xputimage what would good enough static things fractal landscapes such stuff speak about povray the previewer that comes with the original source package not that good especially speed protocol friendlyness and icccm compliance have look own preview code pub gfx ray misc the readme states the points where better than xwindow from povray brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	moolit and olit does anyone know the difference between moolit and olit does sun support moolit moolit available sparcstations have recntly downloaded copy wkshtree written eric wallengren univel there are many widgets that are apparently available only moolit but not olit there wkshtree program available under olit steved cfcl com
comp.windows.x	authentication planned feature for greetings question whether the upcoming release will provide strong authentication between the clients and server will this feature based the kerberos authentication mechanism and will kerberos version used please reply via email thanks andre andre cosma rrc bellcore security and andre bae bellcore com hoes lane data services piscataway
comp.windows.x	amiga new the hardware and with mandate port some based stereo video software does anyone know have experience with amiga machines can retain the event handling would ease plight considerably and can keep all the motif bits much the better gary lawrence murphy garym virtual rose utoronto university toronto industrial eng dept fax taddle creek toronto ont voice the true destination always just here now
comp.windows.x	help presentation mgr port need port several applications openwindows motif and desperately need any information how about doing this short complete rewrite are there any tool make porting easer any references any talent out there hire this will even take presentation mgr emulator for sun any and all replies except flames welcome brian colaric brian colaric dallas central sun com
comp.windows.x	intrinsics slow popups bryan boreham bryan alex com wrote article minster york cjhs minster york writes the application creates window with button quit and press the button press pops dialog box the strange feature this program that always pops the dialog box much faster the first time try pop time time much slower the shell waiting for the window manager respond its positioning request the window manager not responding because thinks the window already the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk unclear all information greatly received thanks for this clue and thanks derek also for pointer the same direction one solution due derek when the popup popped setvalue its location which repeat popups will unchanged from the previous popup the slow response can avoided calling getvalue first and only using setvalue the required location different the problem can also avoided making tiny alteration the location the popup that the setvalue really does change the location the popup tried this just for double check the source the problem the solutions have tried successfully are now follows use twm mwm rather than olwm use olwm with resource wmtimeout only reset the location the popup window truely changed this obviously working around some bug somewhere thanks chris stuart
comp.windows.x	overriding window manager focus processing working window based application that needs override some the window manager focus processing using and motif currently although will also working with open look the future what need under certain circumstances prevent the user from switching from one window the application another window let say for example that window top window the window hierarchy normally the user clicks the mouse window will brought the top the window hierarchy and placed top window under certain circumstances the user clicks the mouse window need beep and prevent window from being raised top window from the research and testing done far appears that this window ordering handled the window manager this case motif haven found any way override this default processing through standard window functions can tell when this switching occurs through focus change and mapping notify events but can find any way tell motif not make the switch the temporary solution currently come with very kludgy but partially works when detect such window switch those cases when the switch not allowed manually force the formerly top window back top with xraisewindow call and beep with the xbell function this provides the necessary functionality but looks ugly when the windows switch places twice does anyone know how can tell motif preferably any window manager when don want the window order switch actually take place respond either mail posting this newsgroup cheers randall randall severy uunet uunet severy information services internet severy uunet net washington genie rsevery rockville usa phone
comp.windows.x	intrinsics slow popups article minster york cjhs minster york writes cjhs minster york wrote help running some sample problems from reilly volume intrisics programming manual chapter popup dialog boxes and example page creating pop dialog box the application creates window with button quit and press the button press pops dialog box the strange feature this program that always pops the dialog box much faster the first time try pop time time much slower has anyone any experience with these sample programs why get this behaviour fast response time for the first time but slow response time from time onwards anyone can give some ideas how program popups that each time they popup reasonable fast response time thankyou shirley thanks those who responded were able prevent this behaviour two methods running twm rather than olwm keeping olwm but putting wmtimeout the resources has been suggested that the difficuty was something with the window manager positioning the popup window any guru who can analyse what going from this information please post and let know thanks shirley ran this problem while ago and from what remember you should use xttranslatecoordinates etc after realizing the main widget calculate the location the popup then use something like xtvasetvalues the popup widgets before ever using them calling setvalues repeatedly every time something pops seems what slows you down never delved deep enough figure out exactly why though jeremy payne uiuc neuroscience program college medicine jrpayne uiuc edu
comp.windows.x	looking for window server frequency operations data hello currently designing the architecture chip which intended help speed common operations windowing system such friend and are designing the chip the final course project for advanced computer architecture course taught fred brooks unc chapel hill while feel that got pretty solid design currently really like get ahold some frequency data from windows server that can make the most effective use our bit budget unfortunately been unable find anything this sort the various faqs manuals that seen does anyone have some type frequency data like how many copy rectangle operations draw lines and things that sort barring that program that records requests the server into logfile that can munge myself any and all help would very appreciated many thanks mark mark deloura deloura unc edu north carolina chapel hill
comp.windows.x	colormaps with dialog shells dyoung media mit edu david young writes have applicationshell which uses colormap created with xcreatecolormap and uses all the colors available for bit display when popup dialogshell prompt the user for some input want the xmndialogstyle set xmdialog primary application modal the result that cursor over the dialogshell get colormap but the cursor over the applicationshell any window other than the dialogshell get the default colormap but like that cursor over any window application get colormap think this correct behavior remember the default colormapfocuspolicy keyboard meaning the cmap focus follows the keyboard focus since the dialog modal mwm won allow keyboard focus onto your main shell and won allow cmap focus either since sounds though you have keyboardfocuspolicy pointer suggest you set colormapfocuspolicy pointer also that way the cmap focus won slavishly follow keyboard focus but will beat its own path you have keyboardfocuspolicy explicit you can set cmap focus explicit also but you then need binding focus color probably david brooks dbrooks osf org open software foundation uunet osf org dbrooks showres soote foote
comp.windows.x	toolkits considering making reasonably large application for free distribution probably copylefted going use now bewildered the huge number standards that open systems has created lived fairly tookit sheltered environment most the tools here were produced with the athena widget set intrinsics humble opinion they look like crap don know however this characteristic the tookits just poor aestetic taste the programmers would like app look little more sculptured like mwm understand however that mwm isn free like the other tookits getting linux will have interviews but don know how will look get the impression andrew from the fsf but don know what looks like either you can help explain this toolkit mess would much obliged which are free which are the best which are portable which looks nice which not resource hog also you happen know which are available linux and sun that would big help too thanks advance
comp.windows.x	problems with color xterm have recently obtained copy color xterm from export lcs mit edu after seeing mentioned previous article compilation reports the following undefined symbols get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass but still runs when sending escape sequences set the colour any colour comes out black text black background any ideas has anyone used this program colour successfully can anyone point any other colour terminal emulators are running openwindows sun sparcs running sunos advathanksnce ben kelley ben thor dbsm
comp.windows.x	title for xterm article apr gecko uucp lanzo tekelec com mark lanzo writes hint for sun users use usr bin echo instead bin echo csh built echo otherwise you have embed literal esc and bel characters the string instead using convenient octal sequences bad idea using usr bin echo slower than the built echo this what does execute hostname once per shell window and does read one extra file but manipluating the titles does not require executing extra programs yes does execute some programs once per each system but stores them file for the next time hostname then setenv hostname hostname endif figure how how generate escape bell and echo commands without line terminator may have done this before the variable set have executed this script before this system then echo already set the echo variables dev tty else echo hostname then source echo hostname else echo then echo built echo bsd dev tty then berkeley style echo echo set ech echo echo hostname echo set echo echo hostname echo set echo echo hostname echo set echo hostname source echo hostname else echo built echo sysv dev tty echo set ech echo echo hostname echo set echo hostname echo set echo hostname echo set echo hostname source echo hostname endif are using shelltool cmdtool xterm duplicate these aliases here avoid problems term sun then sun aliases alias header ech alias iheader ech else term xterm then alias header ech alias iheader ech endif bruce barnett barnett crd com uunet crdgw barnett
comp.windows.x	xrn xarchie for need xrn and xarchie for the version either the source form preferably executable form please suggest where can find this send mail rao cse uta edu thanks advance rao ssc
comp.windows.x	pulldown menu periodically hangs application openwindows has anyone found fix for the following problem client software sunos server hardware sun ipc server software sunos open windows patch motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews the pulldown displayed but then button actions have any effect sometimes pressing return will unstick the application but not usually looks like the pulldown grabbing the focus and never letting other windows the display continue get updated the server isn hanging log from another terminal and kill the motif application then everything gets back normal the same application when run against other servers including mit xsun decwindows tektronix terminal has problems this obviously openwindows problem but need work around since most our customers are openwindows users have tried the following things installing the latest version the openwindows server patch using mwm version instead olwm applying the patch specified the motif faq question this had the effect disabling the point and click method menu interaction opposed the click and drag method and screwing the menu mnemonics keys did seem help but was still able get the application hang repeat this intermittent problem you have try several times click and release menu heading pulldown menu will pop click and release menu item repeat until application hangs any help would appreciated thanks advance skip koppenhaver skip eco twg com
comp.windows.x	screen problem unix xwindows solaris experiment from sun openwindows xterm window log into solaris machine using rlogin now and get the first character each line display the last column the display with the rest the line wrapped the next line the display log out and the condition persists check stty all try reset with effect use telnet instead rlogin and doesn occur try from unix console and doesn occur what causing this can avoided how can the terminal characteristics reset please send replies shenk math gatech edu shonkwiler georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ngp gatech prism arpa prism gatech edu
comp.windows.x	internationalized menus icon labels have problem with icon pixmap application has run under openwindow and motif wrote program motif with pixmap and icons runs fine under motif motif window manager and mwm but the icon pixmap does not show under openwin olwm and olwm has anybody got into this kind problem need clue example which works both motif and openwindow will great jigang yang jigang dale ssc gov jyang sscvx bitnet beckleymeade ave tel dallas fax
comp.windows.x	icon pixmap problem have problem with icon pixmap application has run under openwindow and motif wrote program motif with pixmap and icons runs fine under motif motif window manager and mwm but the icon pixmap does not show under openwin olwm and olwm has anybody got into this kind problem need clue example which works both motif and openwindow will great jigang yang jigang dale ssc gov jyang sscvx bitnet beckleymeade ave tel dallas fax
comp.windows.x	toolkits excerpts from netnews comp windows apr toolkits paul prescod undergrad getting linux will have interviews but don know how will look get the impression andrew from the fsf but don know what looks like either you the internet and your site isn sheltered from external tcp traffic you can use the remote andrew demo see what the andrew toolkit looks like remote andrew demo service this network service allows you run andrew toolkit applications without the overhead obtaining compiling the andrew software you need host machine the internet and you need running the window system simple finger command will allow you experience atk applications firsthand you able compose multimedia documents navigate through the interactive andrew tour and use the andrew message system browse through cmu three thousand bulletin boards and newsgroups use the remote andrew demo service simply run the following command your machine finger help atk itc cmu edu the service will give you further instructions gary keim andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	gui study article apr mercury unt edu seth ponder csci unt edu seth buffington writes cutsie little macintrash like icons that are instant recipe for mousitis imho system undoubtedly the worst gui have used out that riscos mswombles and simply because does not provide enough keyboard shortcuts windows must confess quite like cover your ears because you can actually use without having ever touch the mouse stuff delete the user rather than making things easier and there should always the option your way you want which why like the unix combination much customizable hear hear agree completely one thing can stand about the mac interface its shear determination force you use the mouse what your mouse breaks your whole system down like the mouse handy some occassions such cut and past and moving icons around etc but for most work the keyboard and hot keys are times faster than using the mouse sure plus able something simple you are inexperienced user but how long before your are experienced month two speaking pcs the moment don think too much ask that window programmers provide not only menu mouse interface but also look forward those who would like move hot keys and command line interfaces which usually allows you more less time you are experienced all the above equally applies windowing systems unix especially since unix least more powerful than dos and least more user unfriendly well
comp.windows.x	amiga article utoronto garym utoronto gary murphy writes new the hardware and with mandate port some based stereo video software does anyone know have experience with amiga machines can retain the event handling would ease plight considerably and can keep all the motif bits much the better there for the amiga but cost you gfxbase inc owned dale luck one the original amiga architects sells for the amiga there are many options available including motif call and get the scoop gfxbase inc ellwell drive phone milpitas fax got connection with them other than being satisfied customer joe hartley cadre com whenever you find that you are the cadre technologies side the majority time reform twain richmond providence overman class the kilgore trout memorial clench the church the subgenius
comp.windows.x	how make simplest possible composite widget not being programmer any stretch the imagination this driving crazy and probably really simple need make composite widget that does nothing all but merely placeholder widget instance heirarchy allowing additional resource name level illustrate have application with the following widget heirarchy shell widget application widghet want the following shell widget intermediate widget application widget where the intermediate widget has name but gets all its other properties and propagates down new values from the shell widget assume there simple way this but can find example and the documentation have rather vague about implementing composite widgets please respond via email any help will very much appreciated jim frost jimf centerline com
comp.windows.x	toolkits libxaw the athena widget set will greatly improve the sculptured look linux with its shared jump table libs you don even have recompile relink you merely have lib libxaw lib libxaw thomas
comp.windows.x	file formats folks can anyone give some information the location some information some reference material for the following file formats wiff dca ioca pcx this not quite the appropriate place ask such questions please let know more appropriate one and accept apologies advance thanks for your help rich rollman dogleg systems inc
comp.windows.x	changing colors label help have togglebutton widget yes widget and have routine which changes the color the foreground and background the label well the background changes alright but the label text does not redraw itself guessing that have force redraw with xexposeevent sent via xsendevent this the best way get the text again can seeem get xsendevent work right this good approach might anyone have example lying around show how this rtfm all evening and did not find decent example keep getting segmentation faults xsendevent tho all the values are expected thanks advance stephen dahmen
comp.windows.x	color xterm look for current patches for color xterm for higher could someone please tell where get them for mail them thanks egan ford egan phony utah edu hellgate utah edu
comp.windows.x	toolkits article undergrad math uwaterloo papresco undergrad math uwaterloo paul prescod writes considering making reasonably large application for free distribution probably copylefted going use now the following packages meet your criteria that they are and present aesthetically pleasant graphical interface the users you can use bsd there xview openlook there interviews which looks little like motif there gopath very nice toolkit for athena widgets and motif which simpler and better than interviews and you will enjoy technical support from bull via mail has nice draw program uses motif which can used create graphical front end programs the data format called streams which you can feed your programs ported gopath internet machine which gone but you use gcc with minimal effort gopath can ported bsd last but not least gopath interfaces toolkits via driver module they have windows driver module for instance also many have written extensions tcl thus allowing powerful applications for instance tcl has snmp extensions for tcl with ease can now combine snmp network operations with graphs photo widget graphical interface file operations database operations etc the author tcl mail simple network management application which was about lines long displayed various environmental parameters from router wrote simple strip chart script for displaying real time received packets seconds hope this helps amancio hasty this message brought you the letters and and the number amancio hasty home ftp site depository all work mail hasty netcom com sunvis rtpnc epa gov pub bsd incoming
comp.windows.x	screen problem unix xwindows solaris shonkwiler prism gatech edu wrote experiment from sun openwindows xterm window log into solaris machine using rlogin now and get the first character each line display the last column the display with the rest the line wrapped the next line the display log out and the condition persists check stty all try reset with effect the condition happens when the tab not set spaces set and then check out suresh sivaprakasam department computer science suny buffalo amherst internet sivap buffalo edu bitnet sivap sunybcs bitnet
comp.windows.x	xdm decnet while cannot answer questions about running xdm over decnet can say that the following defines must added the site def before building before any clients will work over decnet from site def define connectionflags dtcpconn dunixconn ddnetconn define extralibraries ldnet hoping this helps george the opinions expressed are those the author and way represent the opinions the cuny graduate school its agencies personnel mcc timessqr cuny edu cmcgc cunyvm bitnet the opinions expressed are those the author and way represent the opinions the cuny graduate school its agencies personnel mcc timessqr cuny edu cmcgc cunyvm bitnet
comp.windows.x	server for has anybody generated server for windows are you willing share your config file and other tricks necessary make work thanks for any information bill steer westinghouse
comp.windows.x	now available xvertext now available xvertext summary xvertext provides you with four functions draw strings any angle window previous versions were limited vertical text rotation still achieved using ximages but the notion rotating whole font first has been dropped what new added cache which keeps copy previously rotated strings thus speeding redraws where can get comp sources soon export lcs mit edu contrib xvertext shar now alan richardson you don have school maths physical sciences old wise univ sussex brighton england judas priest mppa sussex syma elsewhere mppa syma sussex
comp.windows.x	xcursor xcursor version now export xcursor tar added new option determine requested cursor size course your server may lie richard neitzel thor thor atd ucar edu torren med sitt skjegg national center for atmospheric research lokkar borni under sole vegg box boulder gjo med sitt shinn jagar borni inn
comp.windows.x	bitplaned non chunky pixel cfb there version cfb other server stuff which has colour frame buffer implementation which works bitplaned mode where the screen memory grouped that bit every pixel here bit there etc the only such beast know the moment the gfxbase server for the commodore amiga and commercial don know they wrote their own cfb but suspect they did please respond email don read this group many thanks dave david crooke department computer science university edinburgh janet dcc dcs internet dcc dcs talk dcc work jcmb king bldgs mains edinburgh home woodburn terr side edinburgh tel
comp.windows.x	xwd segmentation fault was planning use the following pipe move some display data system that has color hardcopy unit xwd xwud display hostname had tested with some simple windows like the openwindows file manager and worked fine but when tried with more complex larger image the xwd part blew with segmentation fault tried without the pipe redirecting xwd output file and then used the file input xwud and got the same error from xwud had guess seems like running out memory but this happened sparc with megs meg swap space and only one user with minimal activity the file was about this verion xwd xwud was supplied with the sun openwindows distribution which believe corresponds any ideas thanks advance dave humes johns hopkins university applied physics laboratory humesdg aplcomm jhuapl edu
comp.windows.x	announcing tcpview motif based tcp protocol analyzer tcpview the result several problems had have several network general sniffers which are heavily used help debug problems several hundred subnets these are good tools but they are heavy hard find when you need one limited their software expandibility difficult use upload data for analysis cannot remotely operated and cannot resolve names with dns requiring much manual manipulation the name table also sometimes use tcpdump but found too difficult for most people did not have enough information for many protocols could not used interactively could not handle tcp streams and could not read sniffer files however tcpdump did reasonable job decoding large number protocols and could easily modified tcpview attempt resolve these problems adding motif interface tcpdump and expanding its features tcpview has been tested decstation and sun under ultrix and sunos respectively should work the same systems tcpdump compiles with and gcc the dec and sun build tcpview you will need motif better the following files are available for anonymous ftp from ftp cac washington edu pub networking tcpview tar tcpview and tcpdump source code tcpview sun tar sun binaries tcpview dec tar dec mips ultrix binaries what tcpview adds tcpdump easier interface enhanced protocol decoding hex display frame capture based time number frames user interrupt can show ethernet addresses with manufacturer name ethernet address host table can easily follow stream highlighting out order frames can send tcp data external file filter for additional processing changes tcpdump new features now reads and writes network general sniffer files when used with the file type will automatically detected can now read and use snmp mib file the hex format has been changed new time options have been added options were added allow viewing and processing the data tcp packets bugs were fixed the relative tcp sequence numbers flag new flags read sniffer file not usually needed except for reading from stdin ttt prints delta times tttt prints times relative the first frame write sniffer save file use with print frame minus link level header hexdump format sample output jeff cac washington edu nic funet ftp win print tcp data hexdump format used with write tcp data stdout use with eliminate timestamp write frames and tcp data stdout martin hunt martinh cac washington edu networks distributed computing university washington martin hunt martinh cac washington edu networks and distributed computing university washington
comp.windows.x	how see characterset from wchar developed toolkit running the window system the toolkit copes with any languages based facility you know there are kinds implementation from mit release xsi and ximp our original implementation the toolkit uses xsi our toolkit manages each character size based our own font management system order that the wchar typed character strings must decomposed character sets this means that one wchar type compound string with ascii and kanji mixed for example given each element the wchar array must checked its corresponding character set based bit layout and application environment locale this case the locale japanese each wchar character will classified either iso jisx need function this the function must check how many characters from the top are the same character set and what the character set could not find any public function that and inevitably used xsi internal functions construct that function the following the source code that function decomposecharacterset this may look like code but really iima exp iima ifndef define include xlib extern int decomposecharacterset const wchar str int len char buf out int buflen out int scanned len out char charset out extern xmstring wchartoxmstring const wchar str extern xmstringcharset charsetofwchar const wchar endif iima exp include stdlib include xlibint include include extern include wchar define xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xxx xwcdecomposeglyphcharset define xmbfscs xxx xmbfscs define xmbctidtocsid xxx xmbctidtocsid include xlocaleint undef xwcdecomposeglyphcharset undef xmbfscs undef xmbctidtocsid extern int xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xlocale const wchar int char int int int extern charset xmbfscs xlocale csid extern csid xmbctidtocsid xlocale csid int decomposecharacterset const wchar str int len char buf out int buf len out int scanned len out char charset out xlocale xlocale xfallbackconvert int ctid int status charset xcharset status xwcdecomposeglyphcharset xlocale str len buf buf len scanned len ctid status success xcharset xmbfscs xlocale xmbctidtocsid xlocale ctid charset xcharset xcharset name null else charset null return status included file above xlocaleint also xsi internal and copied the file the toolkit directory and compiled serious issue occured when tried compile toolkit application our machine with its version when tried link application based our toolkit link errors occured saying that the following functions are missing xmbctidtocsid code xmbfscs code xwcdecomposeglyphcharset code xfallbackconvert code had used mit release version and its xsi implementation until and ran applications successfully one the reasons use xsi was that because did not release until the and had way know how would implemented had hoped xsi popularity and used its internal functions the linker complains that there are xsi internal functions implemented observe from libx they used some ximp implementation but are not sure they used mit vanilla ximp version their own version ximp and therefore finding just counter part functions mit ximp for xsi does not seem lead solution question and goal know how can construct function like decomposecharacterset listed above there any function check character set each element wchar type strings depending locales public function that perfect but even not want use any internal functions did for mit order render wchar type string there must some machinery judge character sets and that how the proper fonts are selected for the string have way find out that without any source files want know how can use that for our goal any help comments would highly appreciated also appreciate anyone tell about ximp treating around this area even not implementation thank you takeshi inoue inoue crd yokogawa yokogawa electric corporation open systems laboratory
comp.windows.x	looking for filemanager under article apr atlastele com brians atlastele com brian sheets writes does anyone have file manager that runs under unix xdtm working looking ftptool there really isn anything any quality that seen though and seriously considering writing one own mike hopper acs virginia edu will not raise taxes the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	installing mit apollo can any apollo gurus out there let know their experiences building mit with without gcc particular there anything should watch out for thanks advance tim tim liddelow for fork systems programmer centre advanced technology telecommunications brain bad day citri melbourne australia internet tim kimba catt citri edu phone fax
comp.windows.x	change default visual workstation uses pseudocolor colors the default visual how can start with different visual default
comp.windows.x	bitmap postscript hey folks the course develope window application encountered problem how could transform window bitmap into postscript files there any library routines source code can call the job thank you advance email reply please seldom read this newsgroup
comp.windows.x	forcing window manager accept specific coordinates for window article xxq columbia edu ethan columbia edu ethan solomita writes article bading apr athene berlin bading berlin tobias doping bading writes know that the mwm has resource specify positions are used for the border window for the user window maybe other window managers have similar options another way figure out the difference between the user window position and the window manager decoration window position subtract their positions you just have use xquerytree and remember that the window manager decorations window the parent your window unfortunately you can only figure out the decoration width and height after the window has been mapped this way another way would use getgeometry find out where you are relative the frame and translatecoordinates find out where your window upperleft corner really said before there reliable way find out the size the window manager decoration your window has been reparented you can assume that the window you parented the window that holds all the window manager decoration there may several layers windows doing multiple xquerytree until you get the root will work most cases but there guarantee that the outside decoration window parented the root window the display tvtwm tom lastrange toml boulder parcplace com
comp.windows.x	real time data display tool looking for windows tool that can display data plot real time with couple different signals anybody know such gem please email not read this group often thanks much eric slimko theslim caen engin umich edu
comp.windows.x	slider position vertical scrollbars need help positioning the slider list widget horizontal scrollbar displaying the full path selected file list widget the horizontal slider defaults the left side the list widget however need the slider the right side this the user can see the file name they selected know possible because when files are displayed file selection dialog box the slider the right side thanking any and all who can help advance rodney clay clay scarolina edu
comp.windows.x	xrn xarchie for asap need xrn and xarchie for the version either the source form preferably executable form please suggest where can find this send mail rao cse uta edu thanks advance rao ssc
comp.windows.x	asynchronous windows ellis nova ellis nova gmi edu stewart ellis writes there anyway use windows over async line clearly you could use window isn the window system any number other designations accepted the consortium fact doing man pretty much any machine will tell you the consortium requests that the following names used when referring this software window system version window system version there such thing windows window despite the repeated misuse the forms the trade rags this probably tells you something about how much trust the trade rags they can even get the name the window system right why should one trust anything else they have say with regard dialup implementations there are several you can buy serial terminals from couple companies including both graphon and ncd fact composing this from ncd running over serial lines across kbaud connection ncd also sells software only package that provides xremote which ncd implementation serial for there may other such software packages available supposed include standardized compression scheme for running over low speed connections called low bandwidth lbx and based improved versions the techniques used ncd xremote seems likely that once lbx released consortium standard there will several vendors willing supply implementations for various sorts hardware followups directed comp windows matt landau waiting for flash enlightenment matt centerline com all this blood and thunder
comp.windows.x	xsun not running sparcclassic article inndtp tom uni passau rank winf uni passau christian rank writes installed with patches for solaris our sparcstation sparcclassic pool the runs fine but the classics after giving the command startx xsun prints the following messages warning mmap can map dummy space mapping such device address and exits does anybody know how fix this problem just guessing here but guess that expects the have resolution and the version the the sparcclassic disclaimer not represent sunsoft inc sun microsystems inc etc etc brian herzog sunsoft herzog eng sun com sun eng herzog
comp.windows.x	tektronix remember seeing something the distribution mentioning support for tektronix terminal server this accurate mike hopper acs virginia edu will not raise taxes the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	tvtwm xsetroot and sparc keyboard barr pop psu edu david barr writes did you install the sunkbd patch the contrib directory export all the keys keyboard send events properly except the following the end pageup pagedown the key cluster aren recognized even the compose key works though can seem get the composed characters xterm get passed anyone have fix for the last two fix the table mit server ddx sun use xmodmap put stty pass setenv ctype iso setenv lesscharset latin your login the first prevents the stripping bit the second sets the locale the third makes less show the character instead the octal representation robert joop rainbow berlin fokus gmd berlin joop fokus berlin gmd dbp
comp.windows.x	window for briefly starnet communications has four server packages micro lite includes integrated tcp runs arcs micro enlite includes integrated tcp runs under dos shape extension interface novell tcp micro dos pack includes integrated tcp runs under dos shape extension interface novell tcp ftp tcp nfs micro win pack includes lanera tcpopen tcp stack utilities interface ftp tcp sun nfs winsock for more information contact starnet communications fax lawrence expressway voice santa clara mail microx starnet com
comp.windows.x	how get bit color with xview frames using xview sparc ipx under openwindows along with xvideo board from parallax which enables use bit color having some problems utilizing the bit color and would greatly appreciate any help this matter use xview create frame and then create canvas pane inside which use display live video video input bit color the problem that top level frame created frame frame create null frame null seems have depth which propagated canvas would like know how can set the depth the frame bits tried using the following xlib code xvisualinfo visual info int depth colormap colormap xsetwindowattributes attribs unsigned long valuemask window win opaque frame win get frame xid xmatchvisualinfo display screen depth truecolor visual info far good colormap xcreatecolormap display win visual info allocnone dies here with badmatch error attribs colormap colormap valuemask cwcolormap xchangewindowattributes display valuemask attribs xsetwindowcolormap display win colormap using completely wrong approach here possible set the depth and colormap for window created xview what doing wrong thanks advance for any help that can get would prefer response via email although post the newsgroup also okay thanks again alok alok mathur computer science engg case western reserve univ cleveland fairchild road cleveland off res email amathur alpha ces cwru edu
comp.windows.x	compiling programs guys has been long time since wrote program using trying get myself familiarize with would appreciate your help regarding the following problem trying compile simple program sun running sunos using lxaw lxmu lxt lxext getting error undefined symbol get wmshellwidgetclass get applicationshellwidgetclass the simple program tried compile given below include stdio include intrinsic include stringdefs include xaw form main argc argv int argc char argv widget toplevel widget frame toplevel xtinitialize null argc argv frame xtcreatemanagedwidget form formwidgetclass toplevel null xtrealizewidget toplevel xtmainloop got the same error when tried build xpostit using the imakefile provided with the software have compiled programs before not this machine but other machines running sunos and did not get this error message can anybody tell why getting these messages would appreciate you can email your responses azn ruts ccc amdahl com thanks anand
comp.windows.x	hypercard for unix queloz bernina ethz ronald queloz writes netlanders does anybody know there something like macintosh hypercard for any unix platform there are several products you might investigate you got per seat and high end hardware gain momentum might good choice isn compatible with hypercard but has similar architecture and way more functionality don have contact information but they were recently purchased sybase who shouldn too hard find you running news sparc check out hyperlook hyperlook turing com uses postscript scripting language which good you need lots display oriented scripting but not good for non programmers was last heard you might also look our product metacard alpha testing direct importing hypercard stacks even made the test release available for anonymous ftp obviously the closest functionality metacard runs most unix workstations and costs email info metacard com for more details scott thanks advance ron scott raney remember the better you look raney metacard com the more you see lidia
comp.windows.x	regression testing and appreciate any feedback capture playback tools for use with clients have pulled xtm from public domain but appears set test servers not clients any comparisons comments regression testing tools would great particularly xtm xrunner autotester and sri capbak smarts and exdiff megan grenenger megan
comp.windows.x	need shading program example think the original post was searching for existing implementations gouroud shading triangles this fairly complex with plain simpler shading models are implemented already ask archie where get the latest version for gouroud fast implementation will possible utilizing some extension only either mit shm the shade image and fast update the window with pex opengl which should able shade themselves the portable vanilla way would shade normal ximage and use xputimage what would good enough static things fractal landscapes such stuff speak about povray the previewer that comes with the original source package not that good especially speed protocol friendlyness and icccm compliance have look own preview code pub gfx ray misc the readme states the points where better than xwindow from povray the version have using the code instead the default windows code have currently running dec alpha running openvms axp and far have been pretty impressed the only side effect that requires xstdcmap best run before will work annoyning but not show stopper patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	tektronix remember seeing something the distribution mentioning support for tektronix terminal server this accurate xterm supports emulation patrick mahan tgv window washer mahan tgv com waking person unnecessarily should not considered lazarus long capital crime for first offense that from the notebooks lazarus long
comp.windows.x	allocated colors can anyone out there tell how get the total number color cells allocated the default colormap colormap defaultcolormap mydisplay myscreen the maximum number allocated cells given defaultcells mydisplay myscreen but general the number cells actually allocated will much less than this depending the color requirements the windows currently place like way determine this number thanks advance derek derek richardson tel institute astronomy fax cambridge mail dcr mail ast cam
comp.windows.x	unsubscribe pancamo blkbox comm please unsubscribe pancamo blkbox com this user has become inactive and wish discontinue his participation this mailing list marc newman mknewman lkbox com
comp.windows.x	drawing lines inverse xor you can also set the foreground the xor the foreground and background colors xsetforeground this works great for least with truecolor visuals
comp.windows.x	load the network bkline occs nlm nih gov bob kline writes can someone point the direction any papers not necessarily formally conducted studies discussing how much traffic apps generate for the network particularly comparison with curses bases apps over telnet also does server typically buffer user keyboard input line time can the client control this asking for keystrokes immediately thanks advance for any feedback ncd has excellent document titled host loading considerations the environment received copy emailing support ncd com this may help out tim white university south carolina tim otis hssc scarolina edu humanities and social sciences laboratory columbia
comp.windows.x	tektronix article tgv com mahan tgv com patrick mahan writes remember seeing something the distribution mentioning support for tektronix terminal server this accurate xterm supports emulation what was talking about was using tek terminal your display should possible write server that does this far can tell but what asking there already one mike hopper acs virginia edu will not raise taxes the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	how mask the left button posting this for friend whose news service fubared usual will forward replies him you want try reply directly try return path uunet sunfse ese lmsc lockheed com mcfar have event handler working for buttonpressmask like xtaddeventhandler plot data display buttonpressmask false show mouse position plot data but would like able have two types actions one occur with the left mouse the other the right and perhaps one with the middle event handler would look more like xtaddeventhandler plot data display left buttonpressmask false show left mouse position plot data xtaddeventhandler plot data display right buttonpressmask false show right mouse position plot data however don know how make left buttonpressmask there didn seem one the event mask lists had hand although button motionmask looked promising references also mentioned using two mask events can you use and two masks would want this case any help would appreciated thanks lrm
comp.windows.x	remote tektronics emulation hello looking for someone help with the proceedure for remote login via modem not ethernet our new silicon graphics iris machines can log them only terminal regardless what emulating end have communication software kermit which supports tek and emulation the windows manual lists xterm the appropriate command change the terminal type when try the reponse unable open window thanx advance keith grider keith grider come man let the crimes kgrider magnus acs ohio state edu yeah lets get sushi and not pay repo man
comp.windows.x	sun comes mono the prints out the following message about framebuffer cgtwo vme vec cgtwo sun color board fast read anybody know the story this can have impulse item instead henry reynolds hdr ross com hdr nidhog cactus org fone ross technology inc fax hwy west suite austin
comp.windows.x	how modify key map hello folks seeing these errors when try modify key map mwm invalid accelerator specfication line added line the start file before the line that starts mwm looks like the following xmodmap keymapfile mwm think that the problem has with conflict between function keys through which already have assigned functions move minimize etc the odd thing that don see these errors run xmodmap keymapfile from xterm can anyone suggest way modify the key map specifically through and not have mwm motif window manager complain realize this bit stupid but only have time implement not time learn how implement terry
comp.windows.x	xman source jlong pps berkeley edu john long writes where can get xman source would like get the binaries for xman for but would settle for source try xport lcs mit edu direcotry contrib chun hung lin csie ntu edu communication multimedia lab dept comp sci info eng national taiwan university taipei taiwan
comp.windows.x	faq comp windows there any faq list for programming windows thankx for the info bye venky
comp.windows.x	editres under pie tvt looking for any advice suggestions about problem having with mit editres particular under twm variants for start times out but not always editres won grab widget tree when running our ncd decwindows xterms which told will fixed when the not xdm installed tried running sun running real the same network get widget tree but always for twm icon manager anybody know any patches for twm editres that should look thanks
comp.windows.x	repost xview slider xperts this repost one responded desperate yell can believe there xview wizards any more using sliders xview apps usually with editable numeric field but seem have control over the length this field some apps appears long enough keep several characters some cannot keep even the maximum value set panel max value understand panel value display length which controls number characters displayed text items doesn work the case slider despite the fact that panel contains the following bit panel multiline text item panel numeric text item panel slider item and panel text item attributes panel notify level panel attr attr enum panel value display length panel attr attr int which gives hint that this attribute can used for sliders but setting this attribute gives nothing and get ting this attribute gives warning bad attribute and returns value strange thing that dec port xview gives plenty space text fields but not sun xview can someone share his experience managing sliders xview with and clear this problem any help very much appreciated yuri yuri phy
comp.windows.x	bit static color will clients like writing server for some video generation equipment the hardware truecolor yuv space terms has bit static color visual would really like have the server just present this static visual but not sure this will acceptable most clients the three problems see are the colormap though huge static all pixels would bytes wide because the hardware actually lives yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error being more server guy than client guy ask will these limitations thwart many clients will most the stuff floating around blithely accept what they given could write the server also present pseudocolor visual bits but rather avoid this not necessary know there are absolutes but appreciate hearing people opinions and suggestions thanks frederick roeber cern european center for nuclear research mail roeber cern roeber caltech edu work mail cern ppe geneva switzerland home
comp.windows.x	polygon raster converter required can anybody tell they know where can obtain the source code for polygon filling algorithm any other graphics orientated mailing lists that may able help thanks paul paul jaques systems engineer camborne school mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall mail pjaques csm tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	graphics editor required see subject opportunity for sales people persons entities looking for commercial graphics editor with fairly limited abilities that runs under and preferably uses motif widgets must run version either with without the pex extension the sort things want are simple drawing resizing and moving objects such lines rectangles and text bounding rectangle operations are sufficient for object selection ideally should also allow the creation and placement more complex objects such widgets text entry fields labels but this not mandatory does anyone have such animal you please mail with details including price especially run time licensing since must included product alternatively send glossies logica newman street london including technical info please for stuff have some effort that could put into porting thanks for any help nicholas young nicholas young
comp.windows.x	help received from eei eeiihy vax xpert expo lcs mit edu inet mail user vax and internet help
comp.windows.x	core dump from getcons are getting memory fault and core dump whenever end motif session under ultrix running dec examintion the core file leads believe from getcons does anyone know what this all about marc marc wiener marc aip org american institute physics sunnyside blvd voice woodbury fax
comp.windows.x	question not found faq created pixmap drawable window then used xdrawline function drawed line below fingure width height created the pixmap drawable window only with size but draw line from question dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct and for you calculate and art tan degrees tan tan integer how prove xdrawline give the right not please don ask why don created pixmap don wan thanks advance raymond chui nswc new hampshire ave silver spring voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil
comp.windows.x	question not found faq comp windows article apr relay nswc navy mil rchui nswc nswc navy mil raymond chui writes please igore previouse calculation mistaked please see the correct calculation sorry created pixmap drawable window then used xdrawline function drawed line below fingure width height created the pixmap drawable window only with size but draw line from question dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct and for you calculate and art tan degrees tan integer how prove xdrawline give the right not please don ask why don created pixmap don wan thanks advance raymond chui nswc new hampshire ave silver spring voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil raymond chui nswc new hampshire ave silver spring voice ext fax email rchui opal nswc navy mil
comp.windows.x	title for xterm yet again the escape sequences you are speaking about here are non standard and dangerous fact ansi compliant sequence parser hangs them why are there such strange esc sequences instead compatible dsc brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	interactive performance recently got ncd terminal evaluate this running xremote over serial line wanted get some measurement response time wrote small xlib program which simply creates window maps and sends the first expose event itself the program times the delay from sending the event receiving thought this was the simplest way test client server round trip delays similar concept the ping program this valid test perform also tried the xbench program available from ftp net which bombards the server with graphics operations but just wanted get quantative measure what acceptable interactive response time has anyone got any ideas this subject thanks andrew afielden mlsma att com andrew fielden network systems tel information systems group sun support email afielden mlsma att com
comp.windows.x	creating gif file are looking for client which can convert xwd bitmap file into gif file for use macintosh thanks michel crnsu laurent michel crn gti strasbourg cedex france phone
comp.windows.x	pulldown menu periodically hangs application openwindows skip koppenhaver skip eco twg com wrote has anyone found fix for the following problem client software sunos server hardware sun ipc server software sunos open windows patch motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews the pulldown displayed but then button actions have any effect sometimes pressing return will unstick the application but not usually looks like the pulldown grabbing the focus and never letting other windows the display continue get updated the server isn hanging log from another terminal and kill the motif application then everything gets back normal the same application when run against other servers including mit xsun decwindows tektronix terminal has problems this obviously openwindows problem but need work around since most our customers are openwindows users have seen the same problem using sparcstation solaris case happens far more often than periodically help
comp.windows.x	mail hello networld looking for mailreader there xelm andreas andreas dunker andreas appel hydromech uni hannover all live yellow subroutine andreas veeble han the beatles
comp.windows.x	looking for xserver for update your you get server and libraries greg hughes gmh com
comp.windows.x	creating gif file article crnsu michel crnsu writes path wldelft sun mcsun uunet gatech enterpoop mit edu internet news mail gateway from michel crnsu newsgroups comp windows subject creating gif file date apr organization the internet lines sender news athena mit edu message crnsu nntp posting host enterpoop mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu are looking for client which can convert xwd bitmap file into gif file for use macintosh thanks michel crnsu laurent michel crn gti strasbourg cedex france phone just look the pbmplus package does everything you could ever ask for converting pbm almost any format gif tga pcx etc arno duijndam
comp.windows.x	just this newsgroup dead article tgv com mahan tgv com patrick mahan writes gotten very few posts this group the last couple days recently added feed list just this group near death seen from the mailing list side getting about the right amount traffic and seen from point view get far too much articles keep with them lucky can scan through the subjects from time time dipl inform rainer klute immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel dortmund fax new address after june univ dortmund dortmund
comp.windows.x	wanted security posting few days ago there was posting this group andrea winkler titled and security technical conference was one the instructors that tutorial unfortunately system purged the message before had chance see and don have andrea email address someone has andrea address and the posting would really appreciate you forward thanks jeremy jeremy epstein internet epstein trwacs trw com trusted research group voice trw systems division fairfax virginia jeremy epstein internet epstein trwacs trw com trusted research group voice trw systems division fairfax virginia
comp.windows.x	graphics terminal emulators would grateful anyone who knows about windows application that would emulate graphics manner similar the way tek graphics windows are implemented xterm thanks for you help oleg roytburd oleg sdd comsat com
comp.windows.x	andrew was toolkits excerpts from netnews comp windows apr toolkits paul prescod undergrad get the impression andrew from the fsf but don know what looks like either the andrew user interface system supported maintained enhanced and distributed the andrew consortium carnegie mellon the distribution terms are those the consortium not the gnu public license thus anyone can commercially exploit the andrew code without restriction encourage membership however defer universal release the latest versions until consortium members have had opportunity explore the new capabilities what auis looks like you can try remote demo you need server best machine linked the internet give the command finger help atk itc cmu edu for instructions note the demo version does not use the motif look and feel scrollbar but one available you can use the demo changing option the preferences file and starting new editor the andrew toolkit component auis ideal you want build applications using compound documents andrew major feature its architecture for recursive embedding objects equation table figure text for example this architecture extends areas not usually found toolkits including file stream formats cut paste and printing andrew also provides some the most commonly requested applications word processor spreadsheet drawing editor and font editor the latter two are version which will generally released the tape december fred hansen director andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	graphics accelerators how can obtain public information documentation and sources about xservers implemented with graphics processors specially interested xservers developed for the tms texas instruments graphic processor please send answer arana labein
comp.windows.x	xpm available export lcs mit edu directory contrib and avahi inria directory pub xpm xpm patch xpm tar copyright groupe bull see license conditions file copyright history user visible changes enhancements much faster close colors piping from compressed files now handles gnu gzip format added xpmcolorkey attribute ability specify which visual colors use now possible read pixmap color visual but use the colors specified for monochrome added mono grey grey and color options sxpm demonstrate the xpmcolorkey attribute jason patterson jasonp fitmail qut edu bugs corrected fixed bug where redefining none pixel stopped mask generation minor svr defines for string fixed annoying closecolor bug related read write color cells fixed minor bug color value pixel overloading manual updated include new red green blue closeness attributes jason patterson jasonp fitmail qut edu the top imakefile was missing the depend target sxpm imakefile fixed that lib set before the standard library location vivek khera khera duke edu lib xpmp now defines bcopy memcpy for vms required recent versions vms daniel smith dsmith ann arbor applicon slb com the lib imakefile didn work with arnaud hors lehors sophia inria bull research france koala project
comp.windows.x	intrinsics slow popups article minster york cjhs minster york writes bryan boreham bryan alex com wrote article minster york cjhs minster york writes the application creates window with button quit and press the button press pops dialog box the strange feature this program that always pops the dialog box much faster the first time try pop time time much slower the shell waiting for the window manager respond its positioning request the window manager not responding because thinks the window already the right place exactly why the two components get into this sulk unclear all information greatly received the only time seen similar behaviour when application forked child without setting close exec the display connection file descriptor the shell waited for configurenotify event that never arrived because got picked the child sometimes the shell correctly got the configurenotify the timing was right gary phillips email gary ioc phone phones cix compulink fax
comp.windows.x	imake help needed article apr def bae paul def bae paul byrne writes can someone please give some pointers setting imake sun openwindows enviornment checked through all the documentation but can not find any clues sun openwindows imake broken suggest installing imake pure mit imake you can get from ftp germany net file pub misc imake imake pure tar byte dipl inform rainer klute immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel dortmund fax new address after june univ dortmund dortmund
comp.windows.x	server for does anybody have server for that they willing share files experiences bill steer westinghouse
comp.windows.x	sun undeletable console messages have old sun here which gets occasional use when started any console messages during startup are undeletable after fully started run xterm the console the problem that any messages that arrive before this starts the plain console refresh window fails remove them the messages are real pain since they sit the middle the screen obscuring anything else below them boot time the lists two framebuffers dev cgfour and dev bwtwo running color and suspect that maybe the offending messages are the framebuffer and thereby not getting deleted question has anyone else seen this and there easy way get rid these messages please reply mail hughm inmos hugh mcintyre inmos ltd bristol btw sunos mwm know can redirect output the relevant commands dev null looking for more general solution
comp.windows.x	bit static color will clients like article apr vxcrna cern roeber vxcrna cern frederick roeber writes writing server for some video generation equipment the hardware truecolor yuv space terms has bit static color visual would really like have the server just present this static visual but not sure this will acceptable most clients the three problems see are the colormap though huge static all pixels would bytes wide because the hardware actually lives yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error being more server guy than client guy ask will these limitations thwart many clients will most the stuff floating around blithely accept what they given could write the server also present pseudocolor visual bits but rather avoid this not necessary even bit truecolor machines are most cases running emulated bit pseudocolor visual only get standard clients motif apps and thelike run strongly suppose you emulate least bit truecolor should problem only some translation rounding should not make big misfits bit pseudocolor more problem you have emulate colormap pixel indices conversion stuff furthermore you should run your default screen this visual brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	plane xterminal want one been offerred old bits pixel greyscale xterminal aside from the real people have already upgraded risc architecture servers want this xterminal concerned about the planes only ever heard mono and colour planes will have any concerns with this plane unit specifically related planes thanks all apps run servers right
comp.windows.x	unix interest group where know that this not the correct place post this but have exhausted all other logical options used the info unix newsgroup mailer the mailers mysteriously quite coming around the end last year all mails requesting that placed back the list have been ignored have been unable locate the administrator this list anyone knows the internet address that can send the request get back this list can you please send you don know this specific newsgroup mailer would appreciate the address any unix related newsgroup thanks cutoff steve slosser ntsc navy mil sorry for the non related question
comp.windows.x	bit static color will clients like even bit truecolor machines are most cases running emulated bit pseudocolor visual only get standard clients motif apps and thelike run strongly suppose you emulate least bit truecolor should problem only some translation rounding should not make big misfits depends the nature the rounding allows the user bit arithmetic pixel values xor foreground and backgroun pixel values together calculate foreground color that when used with function gxxor fill change foreground background and vice versa your rounding does not preserve these types calculations then clients that use them will break ken kenneth whaley kubota pacific computer inc email whaley kpc com walsh avenue santa clara
comp.windows.x	moolit and olit article stevedavc netcom com stevedav netcom com steve davidson writes does anyone know the difference between moolit and olit does sun support moolit moolit available sparcstations moolit motif open look intrinsic toolkit allows developers build applications that can switch between motif and open look run time while olit only gives you open look internet chunhong vnet ibm com
comp.windows.x	archie client xgetftp needs archie client program does anybody know where can get thanks advance kai
comp.windows.x	bit static color will clients like article apr vxcrna cern roeber vxcrna cern frederick roeber writes writing server for some video generation equipment the hardware truecolor yuv space terms has bit static color visual would really like have the server just present this static visual but not sure this will acceptable most clients the three problems see are the colormap though huge static all pixels would bytes wide because the hardware actually lives yuv space the translation rgb yuv will introduce some rounding error tried ship server once that only supported bit truecolor visual the main problems encountered were clients written with logic like the following defaultdepth assume default depth bit these clients need bit deep visual the root window run correctly other clients didn even bother that much and just outright assumed they had dynamic visual class with dynamic colormap xstorecolors doesn work cmaps associated with static truecolor visual classes but many clients don bother check they just start throwing xstorecolor calls you though both are clearly client error this the case with many clients that easier for you expose bit pseudocolor default root window visual than ever would for all these client writers change their clients the right thing paul pmartz dsd com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	using message passing with xtaddinput the past have used named pipes communicate between processes using the xtaddinput function set the event handling motif does anybody know way this with message passing ipc tried here and luck far thanks
comp.windows.x	red color button enter window this may faq but dont know where get the faq list openlook application has few buttons the first button turns red gets highlighted soon the sprite mouse moved into the application window how suppress this vidyaranya
comp.windows.x	asynchronous windows isn the window system any number other designations accepted the consortium fact doing man pretty much any machine will tell you the consortium requests that the following names used when referring this software window system version window system version there such thing windows window despite the repeated misuse the forms the trade rags this probably tells you something about how much trust the trade rags they can even get the name the window system right why should one trust anything else they have say used think this way and not just about for example incorrect english constructs such its raining window annoy however there comes time when popular usage starts dictate the way things really are the world indeed the fact that won out over news was really down popular opinion know all think technically superior well related topic who say that color more less correct than colour being irish and hence using english english opposed american english always use the latter except course for api terms such xalloccolor and colormap world that uses the term windows refer microsoft windows perhaps the time has come accept windows valid term for think that this more concise and uncluttered term than say the window system and let face almost everyone uses ultimately all need product sales more than just literate people this respect product recognition important and short snappy descriptive title positively obscure will help when dealing with the average punter sad thought was software engineer indeed unfortunate that did not become popularly known windows and let worry about whether should called microsoft windows the microsoft window system how about just plain microsoft summarise should that summarize the point this message think there are far more pressing issues facing the community than worrying about subtle distinctions the naming the window system should that windowing system whatever gets recognised fine agree that one should careful interpreting what trade papers say however would reluctant come this conclusion purely the basis how they name the window system gerard driscoll gerard odriscoll dps pont pixel systems ltd
comp.windows.x	and server have program written with and motif runs fine the sun server and macx when that program run under the sparc and the server the program crashed itself along with the server crashed before the first window had showed got the following error from xio fatal error broken pipe server perot after requests known processed with events remaining the connection was probably broken server shutdown killclient have run the program with xmon and below the last twenty lines from xmon before both the program and server crashed request getproperty delete false window win property atm type atm long offset reply getproperty format type none bytes after request getinputfocus reply getinputfocus revert parent focus win request changeproperty mode replace window win property atm type atm format data request getinputfocus please email you have any idea the above problem thanks advance chiu mwchiu tigr org
comp.windows.x	asynchronous windows zztop dps gerard dps gerard driscoll writes isn the window system any number other designations accepted the consortium there such thing windows window despite the repeated misuse the forms the trade rags used think this way and not just about for example incorrect english constructs such its raining window annoy however there comes time when popular usage starts dictate the way things really are the world well yes and don particularly want this discussion spark lengthy debate but think worth pointing out that popular usage not always sufficient excuse this case for example think appropriate parallel may found the pronunciation proper names people commonly misspelled mispronounced your name would you feel compelled change probably not the same true the window system and related monickers are proper names the same sense that any product name proper name fact some them are trademarked names the fact that many people get them wrong largely beside the point for the trade publications that promulgate things like window windows any the other nonsensical variants one often sees consider the fact that these publications are supposedly written journalists would you trust the facts journalist who couldn bothered get the name his her source right would you trust product review someone who got the name the product wrong popular usage may but for one all for holding people who claim journalists higher standard correctness indeed the fact that won out over news was really down popular opinion know all think technically superior well technically superior news well some alternate universe perhaps
comp.windows.x	unisys emulation has anyone seen source xterm package ready perform unisys terminal emulation got clunker and got connect return mikell cactus org mikell cactus org calame linebarger graham pena attys law
comp.windows.x	cfp andrew technical conference reminder plan now for the andrew conference date the dates are noted below have not changed them submission extension are still accepting papers tutorial topic converting andrew source code this tutorial will discuss the steps necessary convert site from extended with classc conversion the source code requires only couple steps run the converter fill missing type information describing this will not take long the remainder the day will spent learning how write objects and practicing andrew technical conference and consortium annual meeting june carnegie mellon university pittsburgh the conference will held the last thursday and friday june tutorial will thursday the and the conference proper the with the annual meeting the dinner the evening between the two days all conference attendees are welcome the annual meeting though only consortium members will able vote this year theme application construction non programmers much the effort toolkits has been aimed programmer construction applications there have however been some excellent uims systems built top papers addressing the theme will consider questions such what needed for application construction non programmers can avoid programming altogether simple language needed sufficient create applications must users able create new widgets should widgets and applications able print themselves your participation the conference welcome papers are appropriate the theme any aspect the andrew user interface system including applications experience with users new objects reviews and proposals for revision internal andrew protocols expect have with video projector available you would like demonstration paper proposals should submitted may acceptance will june with final papers due june send papers via electronic mail wjh andrew cmu edu fred hansen director andrew consortium
comp.windows.x	xarchie available export please accept the following announcement for comp windows announce completely revamped version the browser interface archie xarchie now available export lcs mit edu contrib xarchie tar for those not familar with archie xarchie include part the manpage intro xarchie browser interface the archie internet information system using the prospero virtual filesystem protocol archie provides information about files available for ftp anywhere the internet xarchie displays this information using easy use point and click interface xarchie allows you further explore ftp sites examining directories returned query matches and allows you retrieve files located this way xarchie has been extensively tested and variety other flavors and wide range machines summary the new features from the readme follows major improvements include multiple selections allowed browser for use with other new features fwf multilist widget ability expand directories browser real fully integrated ftp implementation ability save and reload query results well print them ability resort results and sort results user definable pseudo weights online help browser color resources done that they don break mono displays fwf fileselector widget for local file operations makefile dst supplied for the imake impaired george george ferguson arpa ferguson rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university rochester vox rochester fax
comp.windows.x	regression testing and megan grenenger megan wrote appreciate any feedback capture playback tools for use with clients any comparisons comments regression testing tools would great particularly xtm xrunner autotester and sri capbak smarts and exdiff how about starting where could find any these for the commercial ones least phone number would appreciated bill poitras molecular simulations inc tel bill msi com burlington fax ftp mail mail ftpmail decwrl dec com offers ftp via email subject help quit
comp.windows.x	how get bit color with xview frames amathur ces cwru edu alok mathur writes would like know how can set the depth the frame bits tried using the following xlib code using completely wrong approach here possible set the depth yes and colormap for window created xview what doing wrong look depth also you might want try using xview colormap segments instead xlib for your colormap stuff they will probably easier for you use and since you are using truecolor visual you won losing anything compared straight xlib jonathan hue island com
comp.windows.x	announcing the motif mailing list glad and proud announce the new mailing list for the motif bindings got over replies about one week people interested such list and the software has now been properly installed the list now and running for those interested joining please send mail that extend motif request ruu rvloon ruu the blurb everyone who joins gets follows well the original announcement for where motif can obtained enjoy welcome the motif mailing list the motif mailing list mailing list dedicated motif the wrapper library for motif where people can ask questions about motif swap stories and give new ideas about new directions and improvements for the bindings all requests administrative nature like subscription removal etc should directed motif request ruu all mail sent motif ruu will sent the entire list please make sure when using vacation type programs that will reply messages automatically that the address for the mailing list excluded from auto replies enjoy ronald van loon theory there difference rvloon ruu between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands practice however there hello motif world over the past half year there have been lot relatively minor changes the motif bindings imake support has been improved few defaults have been changed and lot other small things have been added this basically release which drops the gamma status next release will incorporate some improvements stefan schwarz and possibly will support and motif note all those who keep copies the archive please retrieve this distribution during off peak hours and delete all previous copies here the original announcement history the university lowell supported grant the open software foundation has developed wrapper library that encapsulates motif widgets classes all resources these widgets can now set through member functions while objects can used callback functions the library was made available for free nominal cost for anonymous ftp however the library contained large number bugs and oversights and only worked under due lack subsequent fundings the bindings are longer actively supported the university lowell ronald van loon certain point last year have taken the lowell bindings fixing the bugs came across adding missing memberfunctions and enhancing functionality and made the bug fixed library available for the general public for anonymous ftp made possible rick murphy dec new release now pleased announce new and updated release the motif bindings this release offers full motif and support support for xbae widgetset two additional widgets written myself that can used indicate progress application imake support this release relies heavily the existence imake and its config files your site have tried provide the bindings with standard makefile tweakable for those unfortunates without imake have not severely tested the standard makefile though contact you have problems the reason for calling this gamma release lies the fact that not have multitude platforms test the imake files lots testfiles even somewhat useful programs article wrote the usage motif and previously posted usenet where get the new motif bindings ftp anonymous ftp decuac dec com directory pub note please patient the network link quite slow please not ftp large files during working hours also note that there also motif jan tar file this site this old version the bindings mail those who don have ftp can send mail and will send the bindings mail request those who use the bindings and find bugs see room for improvement please contact and will try incorporate them future release case bugs bug fix course more information contact rvloon ruu you are desperate then you can call that utrecht the netherlands those within the netherlands call enjoy ronald van loon theory there difference rvloon ruu between theory and practice dcv group utrecht the netherlands practice however there
comp.windows.x	manual unsubscribe request the list under two addresses think tom capmgtsci com and zuma tom netcomsv netcom com please delete the second one zuma tom netcomsv netcom com thanks sorry for the screw tom tulinsky capital management sciences west los angeles tom capmgtsci com
comp.windows.x	looking for updated xview textedit source support the xview version source distribution included the contrib section included the source the textedit program like take the sources and modify them add support for tooltalk like message server and maybe for tooltalk while since the sun supplied textedit binary doesn seem speak tooltalk however the sources the contrib area seem for older version textedit than the version shipped with openwindows for example the own textedit includes drag and drop support and dropsite the main control area while the source contrib xview knows nothing about drag and drop the textedit included the xview sources says version dated while doing what textedit the own binary says textedit copyr sun micro dragdrop copyr sun micro tooltalk copyr sun micro relname copyr sun micro does anyone know the sources textedit are available really like work from the latest source possible please reply email and post summary there enough interest matt landau waiting for flash enlightenment matt centerline com all this blood and thunder
comp.windows.x	input focus window other than where the pointer have noticed framemaker both the sgi and sun platforms that certain dialogs such column layout for example respond keyboard traversal even though the pointer not the dialog window and even though the window manager keyboard focus policy pointer how this done would like emulate this behavior application seems reasonable behavior since when dialog popped from keyboard action the dialog not guaranteed under the pointer and the user should not have reach for the mouse just move the focus alternatively open any suggestions what the right way insure that popups get the focus when they appear particularly when they are invoked from the keyboard and one keyboard focus policy pointer allen barnett whose wife graciously allowed use her account
comp.windows.x	which events are generated application exit writing application running under using motif and need some stuff when the application quits now when shut down windows session doesn seem send sigterm whatever signal application trapping various signals like that therefore thought could use signal check for top level window being destroyed however seem get destroynotify events whenever move windows there any way for check that the window actually being destroyed some field check some combination events replies mail please and will summarise thanks for any help ian ian compsci liverpool
comp.windows.x	xavier extension interviews dear folks pleasure able announce the release new freeware program xavier audio and video extension interviews xavier extension class for interviews class library that adds multimedia capability interviews allows composite multimedia objects built from media objects specifically adds audio and video objects the classes available interviews and does without changing the source code for the original classes though several configuration files for interviews need changed via patch file currently the xavier audio classes are only supported sun workstations with audio interface such the sparcstation xavier has been tested the following environments sun machine sparcserver sparcstation ipc sun later sun ver nec ews machine ews ews rel wsos release release release can obtained via anonymous ftp from interviews stanford edu pub contrib xavier large demo tar and xavier tar are preparing mailing list for information regarding xavier you are interested please contact xavier tsl nec will add your mail address our list reference rei hamakawa hizekazu sakagami jun rekimoto audio and video extension graphical interface toolkits the third international workshop network and operating system support for digital audio and video san diego rei hamakawa mail rei tsl nec systems research laboratories nec corporation miyazaki chome tel miyamae kawasaki fax kanagawa japan
comp.windows.x	pulldown menu periodically hangs application openwindows article rgt innonv ssdc ssdc sterling com rlee ssdc ssdc sterling com richard lee writes motif application will periodically hang when run against the openwindows server xnews have seen the same problem using sparcstation solaris case happens far more often than periodically don know there corresponding patch for solaris but this sounds like the following bug which supposedly fixed the solaris olwm jumbo patch window system can hang errant pointer grab actually suspect that the problem may different since the readme file says that this patch just sunos version the olwm but maybe that line came from earlier version the patch and they forgot take out the version barry margolin system manager thinking machines corp barmar think com uunet harvard think barmar
comp.windows.x	xsun not running sparcclassic herzog dogwalk eng sun com brian herzog sunsoft product engineering writes just guessing here but guess that expects the have resolution and the version the the sparcclassic used with classics set for both and you can choose which resolution you want the prom monitor before booting one person had trouble with that was fixed using the multi screen version here how our version was built you can just copy usr local bin xsun from farside rutgers edu you just want see whether this version will work distribution installed from pub mit and contrib export lcs mit edu patches installed from pub fixes export xsun multi screen patches installed from contrib xsun multi screen export mar solaris patches installed release update from contrib sunos patch export mar compilation with gcc configuration standard except that the root usr local per rutgers conventions
comp.windows.x	question not found faq article apr relay nswc navy mil rchui opal nswc navy mil writes created pixmap drawable window then used xdrawline function draw clipped line created the pixmap drawable window only with size but draw line from question dose the xdrawline function can finger out that correct and for you calculate and you asking does the server perform clipping correctly when drawing lines the answer yes
comp.windows.x	comp windows would like keep track development ultrix openwindows currently cannot use the newsgroup comp windows and would like use the email based info thanks folkert boonstra cap gemini innovation dutch research centre burg elsenlaan phone box fax rijswijk mail boonstra capints uucp
comp.windows.x	problem with dni and can anybody help having problem displaying images greater than bytes sparc ipc running openwindows and dni program runs vax and displays images the ipc with problems use openwindows the program uses the following lines display the image the xputimage routine that crashes ximage ximage ximage xcreateimage mydisplay defaultvisual mydisplay myscreen ddepth zpixmap image xwid ywid xputimage mydisplay mywindow mygc ximage xpos ypos xwid ywid the error get xio fatal error server galaxy after requests known processed with events remaining xlib ioerror xlib error system linkdiscon network partner disconnected logical link trace traceback symbolic stack dump follows module name routine name line rel abs bbe bbe myxsubs imtoiks test main have simple test program anyone would like test thanks paul paul jaques systems engineer camborne school mines rosemanowes herniss penryn cornwall mail pjaques csm tel stithians fax
comp.windows.x	standard colormaps working application and have concerns regarding standard colormaps the documentation says usually window manager creates these colormaps wonder what window manager the writer had mind neither twm mwm seem create standard colormaps course one can use xstdcmap create standard colormaps however xstdcmap doesn seem try very hard avoid conflicts with the default colormap when use standard colormaps created xstdcmap the rest display goes black seems use standard colormaps causes the very problem standard colormaps are intended avoid perhaps every application used standard colormaps things would wonderful but not many applications seem use standard colormaps finally the operation the functions xmugetcolormapallocation xmustandardcolormap and xmucreatecolormap seem inconsistent with the section the xlib documentation according the section the xlib documentation for grayscale colormaps only the colormap red max red mult and base pixel members are defined the other members are ignored compute grayscale pixel value use the following expression gray red mult base pixel xffffffff xmugetcolormapallocation defined mit lib xmu cmapalloc used xmulookupstandardcolormap defined mit lib xmu lookupcmap select red max green max and blue max values for the call xmustandardcolormap when the rgb gray map property specified xmugetcolormapallocation sets red max the total number cells the gray scale sets green max the total number and sets blue max the total number referring section one would expect xmugetcolormapallocation set red max the total number cells the gray scale when the rgb gray map property specified xmustandardcolormap defined mit lib xmu stdcmap sets red mult green mult and blue mult all equal referring section one would expect green mult and blue mult ignored when red mult green mult and blue mult all equal xmucreatecolormap defined mit lib xmu crcmap constructs gray map the sum red max green max and blue max gives the maximum gray value referring section would expect red max give the maximum gray value
comp.windows.x	xlib timeouts the process modifying application that uses xlib like include timer driven facility for network polling but cannot see how using xlib know can done with xaw using xtappaddtimeout and xttimercallbackproc how the same using xlib thanks for any help please email dave wilson computing centre rhodes university grahamstown south africa
comp.windows.x	how unsubscribe from mailing list try unsubscribe from this group sending email but that doesn work could some one tell the listserv address and command for unsubcribe leaving this friday april and the mail box will overflow soon after that thanks philip nguyen research engineer flexible manufacturing research and development centre fmr mcmaster university main west hamilton voice ext fax mail phil flex eng mcmaster
comp.windows.x	how can get pixel value from drawable how can get pixel value from drawable without having copy the client ximage and use xgetpixel want select pixels from animating window the server without having copy the whole lot back client any pointers appreciated gordon gordon watson meteorology department edinburgh university scotland janet watson internet gcw met
comp.windows.x	how resolve different font formats all tried run softpc emulation software program installed silicon graphics workstation from human design system hds terminal and everything went fine except the fonts could not converted from one type format the other hds uses different font format from sgi worksation have the following questions how you resolve different font formats from different machines there program convert one type font format another you have similar problems experiences and have found solution please let know your help will greatly appreciated thank you advance for your help and information tom nguen edwind lims lerc nasa gov
comp.windows.x	archie client get xarchie instead brain inside andre beck abpsoft mehl andre beck irs inf dresden
comp.windows.x	standard colormaps article rjdk inncnh senator bedfellow mit edu jgealow mtl mit edu jeffrey gealow writes working application and have concerns regarding standard colormaps the documentation says usually window manager creates these colormaps wonder what window manager the writer had mind neither twm mwm seem create standard colormaps standard colormaps were spec with the intention that window managers would make them available this doesn mean that every window manager author the world immediately dropped everything they were doing and implemented this top priority the esge server ship makes the rgb best map available startup doesn wait for window managers course one can use xstdcmap create standard colormaps however xstdcmap doesn seem try very hard avoid conflicts with the default colormap when use standard colormaps created xstdcmap the rest display goes black seems use standard colormaps causes the very problem standard colormaps are intended avoid perhaps every application used standard colormaps things would wonderful but not many applications seem use standard colormaps does your hardware have only one clut since standard colormaps typically devour all entries there way can avoid displacing the entire default colormap your hardware has only one clut don believe standard colormaps are intended aboid possible colormap flashing between clients using the default coilormap rather colormap flashing will avoided between two clients that use the same standard colormap example would two clients that need full color range would both use rgb best map whatever called under you are trying avoid colormap flashing with the default colormap your best bet try load all the colors you use into that colormap you can that then you get flashing one clut framebuffer now your window manager used the same standard colormap your client this flashing could also avoided perhaps some window managers have command line options for selecting standard colormaps paul pmartz dsd com evans sutherland
comp.windows.x	imake support for xmosaic imake support for xmosaic although xmosaic great program general unfortunately comes without imake support created one until marc andreessen finds the time incorporate official xmosaic release you can easily yourself use anonymous ftp get ftp germany net pub misc xmosaic imake tar the file size byte you will need gzip unpack have fun dipl inform rainer klute immer richtig beraten univ dortmund irb postfach tel dortmund fax new address after june univ dortmund dortmund
comp.windows.x	posix message catalogs can someone tell words less how compile posix message catalogs that can use them with catgets catopen etc know what the format for the catalogs but don know how compile them please reply chas blackwhite com thanks advance chas black white software inc leaders systems software solutions bascom ave suite contact black white for information campbell windows osf motif software support osf motif windows gui builders add widgets editors and help systems info blackwhite com and ada motif bindings
comp.windows.x	registration andrew tutorial technical conference andrew tutorial and technical conference when thursday and friday june and deadline for registration june where carnegie mellon university pittsburgh pennsylvania sponsor andrew consortium cmu school computer science schedule the tutorial will thursday followed dinner and the annual meeting the conference proper will friday all conference attendees are welcome the annual meeting wednesday june check after informal reception thursday june tutorial conference dinner annual meeting friday june technical conference cost tutorial fee includes breaks lunch and tutorial materials conference fee includes conference dinner breaks and proceedings rooms student housing night housing tight around the campus area please register soon you prefer stay off campus housing please contact for suggestions mary anne cowden will handling registration you can contact her email andrew cmu edu phone registration form please complete the attached form and return mary anne cowden andrew consortium technical conference carnegie mellon university smith hall forbes avenue pittsburgh cut along here name address organization email phone tutorial conference housing night total enclosed please make checks payable carnegie mellon university
comp.windows.x	keyboard mapping and window placement questions these are two common subjects hope someone has had deal with these specific questions application depends modifiers what the best lookup method choices are call xgetmodifiermapping for each key press with modifier make the call once the init the app and store the modifiers lookup table would like the second way but can seem get the notify when the user uses xmodmap remap the modifiers know that when app calls xsetmodifiermapping mappingnotify event generated non maskable which can pick and modify internal table but don seem get any notify events when the user uses xmodmap use all reilly has say automatically handled use xlib ala xnextevent get nothing this all stems from problems with users the sun keyboard and the numlock plus various alt meta etc modifier requirements would like place popup that will the immediate right main window want the same coord and their right left sides touching what need ask for the coord the window manager border for the main window this should ring bell with anyone who has called xtmovewidget immediately checking the after the move and seeing that right and their next callback asking for the and seeing that now offset the border any help would most appreciated darcy darcy mccallum mentorg com
comp.windows.x	save under with have the following problem servers when window obscured pop window which has the save under attribute set the subwindows window are not restored normally the subwindows are redrawn when the parent window gets expose event but because the save under attribute used for the pop window that obscured window expose event sent when exposuremask set for the child windows those windows are correctly updated when the popup window disappears however then the application gets too many expose events and you see extra redraws everything works fine with this something that changed between and obvious something wrong there something that the popup window should which also mine this bug release greetings hans bos domain hans xelion xelion uucp sun xelion hans postbus phone
comp.windows.x	overriding default behaviour posted this about tow weeks ago but never saw make then again had some problems with the mail system apologies this appears for the second time usually when start application first get the window outline display then have click the mouse button actually place the window the screen yet when specify the geometry option the window appears right away the properties specified the geometry argument the question now how can override the intermediary step the user having specify window position with mouseclick tried explicitly setting window size and position but that did alter the normal program behaviour thanks for any hints robert working plain using tvtwm robert gasch der erste mai ist der tag dem die stadt ins oracle engineering freihe tritt und den staatlichen monopolanspruch meern auf gewalt frage stellt rgasch oracle com einstuerzende neubauten headers from uupsi expo lcs mit edu xpert mailer thu apr remote from aolsys received from uupsi aolsys aol com thu apr edt received from srmftp psi com psi com psi psinet via smtp for thu apr received from expo lcs mit edu srmftp psi com psi psinet thu apr edt received expo lcs mit edu thu apr received from enterpoop mit edu expo lcs mit edu thu apr received enterpoop mit edu thu apr received from usenet enterpoop with netnewsfor xpert expo lcs mit edu xpert expo lcs mit edu contact usenet enterpoop you have questions xpert expo lcs mit edu date apr gmt from rgasch oracle com robert gasch message nlsun oracle organization oracle europe subject overriding default behaviour
comp.windows.x	toolkits excerpts from misc apr toolkits sivesh pradhaan rebels not have finger there any other way accessing this service like mail server telnet ftp you can use telnet xhost atk itc cmu edu telnet atk itc cmu edu run demo
comp.windows.x	realtime tensions iam looking for information any work that deals with real time support windows would happy you could provide any pointers information thanks lakshman lakshman uky edu
comp.windows.x	wierd xdm behavior dear sun and windows people running sun workstations with sunos and vanilla have bunch xterminals well today had xdm fail about was impossible login host from xterminal the message was the xdm too many retransmissions xdm errors file had the following entries error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly error pid warning keyboard display could not secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly also had error pid warning keyboard display could not secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly error pid warning keyboard display could not secured error pid server for display terminated unexpectedly also the console the login box would come for about seconds and then would away would this continuously could login from another workstation the hosts question however could not login the console tried killing xdm and restarting but that didn help finally rebooted all the hosts which hurts when done the middle the day any help would appreciated thanks phil phil neal systems programmer statistics department university washington seattle usa look another bit repo man the movie
comp.windows.x	realtime tensions looking for information any work that deals with real time support windows would happy you could provide any pointers information concurrent has product called realtimex that set real time extensions the window system realtimex currently supported the concurrent series and series with the graphics accelerator you need want more info let know sam black once you remove the absurdity from human existence there isn much left black westford ccur com concurrent computer corporation
comp.windows.x	interactive performance for image display about frames per second seems the lower limit for interactive operations for just bringing image for viewing less than second seems good number course the measure response time should based the applications you are planning run
comp.windows.x	frame buffer question for sun window installation sun with alone and with screen and screen questions are there any hardware configuration changes the and devices that need made other than pulling out and inserting the frame buffer the vme bus the called graphics accelerator apposed frame buffer what the significance this the server and how install the sunos driver compatable would appreciate any information this posting this the behalf john charlton who does not have net access please reply him directly charlton bme unc edu just send this address and will forward thank you for your help anay panvalka unc edu
comp.windows.x	plane xterminal want one article srv watserv uwaterloo chudel watarts uwaterloo chris hudel writes all apps run servers right the bit server should work fine far know xterminals running older versions can run the latest apps long the host machine has the libraries installed could wrong though mike hopper acs virginia edu will not raise taxes the middle class unknown
comp.windows.x	menubutton widget question trying create button that has both label and bitmap using the menubutton widget this possible right now all get the bitmap sign the label any help would appreciated scott
comp.windows.x	how access bit color have sun and have just acquired frame buffer card the supposed support both bit color visual and monochrome visual the default visual for the xnews server the monochrome and are unable change the bit visual have tried using xgetvisualinfo get visual depth but had success xdpyinfo gives information about bit deep visual only monochrome there are two possible solutions someone has patches for xsun server could they forward them otherwise could someone instruct how access the bit color openwindows jon herlocker email herlock lclark edu lewis clark college portland
comp.windows.x	xsun not finding default font sol netters just built under solaris used the multi screen patch well the sunos patch and everything builds great except for that error message xsun gives upon startup says cannot set default font path stuff deleted and cannot set default font fixed supply the option doesn complain about the font path but still complains about the font have symlinks from usr lib the place where distribution lives could somebody help joel joel reymont code software corporation mail joel code com redwood hwy suit san rafael
comp.windows.x	desqview and network traffic article qdeck com support qdeck com technical support writes article qtk picasso cssc syd tansu com gpatapis boyd tansu com writes what sort traffic generated with the calls curious find out the required bandwidth that link must have one machine running supporting multiple users clients and require adequate response time anyone have any ideas expect the limiting factor will your server machine not the network itself give you real world example here quarterdeck have roughly people using dvx talk bunch unix boxes novell file servers and each other not too much load our ethernet with maybe concentrators you have people each segment you had badly loaded net the apps you wanted run were very network intensive you could run into some slowdowns but the biggest problem would the machine itself say you have with plenty ram and fast hard disk and network card you have people running programs off you going see some slowdowns because you now effectively mhz course dvx will attempt see tasks are idle and make sure they give their time slice but you have working programs running you know well can buy bigger and more powerful server machine because the significant drop price year after year the link want use though isdn costly and the bandwidth limited that why interest lies seeing such link can used and see what traffic goes through having said that you can tweak the programs being run adding calls give time slices when idle and that sort thing you could probably run people given machine before you started seeing slowdowns again this time from network bandwidth hmmm has anyone your centre monitored the traffic all are you running any standard windows programs like word what sort packets blazing through what size link you have what the average traffic flow going through your network you have few high peaks and then many low points all really depends what the programs are doing you going see slowdown from bandwidth lot sooner your apps are all doing network things also what you mean network things vision using windows and other windows applications over the network were the processes are running the server and all getting are the displays wondering how good the and subsequently protocol transferring these images with calls and displaying them client machine quarterdeck office systems internet support tom bortels pricing ordering info qdeck com tech questions support qdeck com bbs fax compuserve quarterdeck fax from touch tone phone for technotes demand george patapis pan metron ariston telecom lane cove email gpatapis cssc syd tansu com box sydney south fax nsw australia voice
comp.windows.x	interface architect hey gui folks does anyone out there have experience with the interface architect gui dev tool can call you and ask couple quick questions promise brief the questions are simple and course call nickel jeff copeland jeffcop isc com interactive systems corp now systemhouse jeff copeland jeffcop isc com
comp.windows.x	has escaped not another false alarm not certainly done next week message this the real thing repeat this not drill batten down the hatches hide the women and lock the cows has finally escaped was cleaning its cage this morning when overpowered broke down the office door and fled the lab was last seen heading the general direction export lcs mit edu nearly per second found answers the name contrib tar have blast off the vacation capital the waco texas jhb
comp.windows.x	searching cad software out there looking for mechanic construction cad software either sources sun binaries respective the licence who knows any package and source site get thx fabian fabian hoppe phone elsternstr fax gevelsberg email fabian vivian open germany
comp.windows.x	there simple way check what action mouse button will take actually executing somehow one xterminal users has made that click right automatically kills all clients thanx fish john vanderpool internet fish eosdata gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx vox you run and you run catch with the sun but sinking racing around come behind you again
comp.windows.x	anybody have patched version xroach for tvtwm read about the code you can put most applications that the virtual desktop stuff tvtwm doesn confuse them the application confusing the virtual ness chicken the egg but wanted see has been applied version xroach never could quite get ssetroot work either any suggestions luckily root quit does the trick for the most part also quite interested hearing more about the icon region for each virtual window under tvtwm that read thread last week here thanx fish john vanderpool internet fish eosdata gsfc nasa gov nasa gsfc hstx vox you run and you run catch with the sun but sinking racing around come behind you again
comp.windows.x	help developing windows interface for gdb trying write windows based interface that runs top gdb could anyone help understanding the way are supposed fork gdb off subprocess currently use pipes but when try and debug this program the following happens program main int printf enter scanf printf output the program hangs without returning the output the printf statement when type value like then all the printf output comes out one time there any other way besides using pipes this like ioctl something else thanks deepak deepak mulchandani advanced products research and development laboratory motorola semiconductor products sector austin deepak inxs sps mot com
comp.windows.x	motif server for ascii terminals does anyone know server for character cell terminals doesn have anything fancy long works
comp.windows.x	finding out state state keys capslock and numlock blue arbortext com rps arbortext com ralph seguin writes question this there means determining what the state capslock and numlock don know any way except see what modifiers are keypress event course there some reason why you need always know the state modifiers even your windows don have the keyborads focus you can always ask for keypress events from the root window then you get all the keypresses and you always know what have been pressed even more pointed question there easy means making keyboard act like keyboard capslock active and the user presses shift like get lowercase instead think this just question how implement xlookupstring you can always write another function that interprets the keypresses you like you can look the implementation xlookupstring from the xlib sources and then modify little bit sami tikka hut sami tikka hut admd fumail live long and prosper
comp.windows.x	looking for drawing packages greetings developing application that allows user interactively create edit view visual model topology their network and was wondering anyone knew any builder tools that exist simplify this task the past have used visual edge uim product develop other guis familiar with uimss general the topology will support objects and connecting links once the topology created want provide the user with capabilities support grouping zooming etc looking for some form higher abstraction other than drawing routines accomplish this specifically the zooming and grouping aspects may prove difficult and certainly time consuming have roll own suggestions greg greg software mitel com
misc.forsale	motorcycle wanted followup kedz wpi wpi edu distribution organization worcester polytechnic institute keywords looking for inexpensive motorcycle nothing fancy have able all maintinence self looking the range you can help out great please reply mail
misc.forsale	boat for sale boat for sale imperial fisherman featuring walkaround cuddy cabin with volvo duo prop outdrive cassette stereo vhf radio hummingbird fishfinder all safty equipment covers and much more capacity includes storage trailer hardly used less than hrs asking best offer for further information contact gerald mansfield
misc.forsale	wanted brother touch says interested buying one the little label makers and can afford new one anybody tired theirs mail maureen prism gatech edu maureen eagle georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	make your own talking elevators complete standalone system computer required for burning sound files into eproms consists apollo eprom programmer designed specifically for this job wont anything else microphone logical devices eprom eraser wipe the mistakes brand new freight
misc.forsale	rent timeshare week timeshare week for rent must use before july best offer week can traded anywhere the world hawaii austria far east etc under interval international will answer questions about that and help you trade have the paperwork and phone numbers order that contact jeff vinson vinson migration com daytime leave msg
misc.forsale	test 
misc.forsale	for sale farenheit bit for sale orchid fareheit bit color card meg almost new best offer this post for friend call him thuan pho houchin
misc.forsale	deal gone bad what rjkoppes news weeg uiowa edu randy koppes writes have you head small claims you may have put money front for the filing fees and then possibly having the local sheriff his her city deliver the bad news the end the other party will end paying for his her mistake with interest from the time the filing the pay date the defendent think the problem with small claims court that you have the location the person you taking action against seems the time and money involved travelling out there unless this person close you wouldn worth for small claim really depends how much money you out wrong about any this someone please correct kenneth simon dept sociology indiana university internet kssimon indiana edu bitnet kssimon iubacs
misc.forsale	real estate sale residential lot for sale have nice residential lot available approx imately acre size located the development called belvedere plantation pender county eastern north carolina north wilmington the lot near the intra coastal waterway golf and tennis are located the development property belvedere plantation also has mar ina facility the icw this lot nearby all the facilities mentioned own the lot outright but does not look like will get back the area anytime soon would like sell for that reason make offer interested please send mail prism gatech edu mike smith michael davis smith georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	misc radio and related equipment lots misc and radio related items for sale still trying lighten load for moving motorola vhf pager digital voice readout capacitor checkers audio oscillator khz feet brand new hardline for with new connectors this pieces lots gain mobile antennas for vhf and uhf uhf amp input mhz milliwatts and output mhz watts out with service manual this came out motorola mobilephone make reasonable offer looking for shipping trade for rca tac uhf dash mount channel service manual great condition currently gmrs frequency repeater and simplex with nobratron power supply sorensen service manual this amp variable power supply have used vdc weight lbs motorola tone remote model works great with monitor button this unit used remote base station with only two wires also have tone remote board from mitrek super consolette make offer could used with above remote model trn schmetics both for motorola handhelds charger speaker mic leather case currently dpl dpl decks from motorola moxy radios very reasonable esp you take all anyone offer each for all trade for reeds have some think also dpl code plugs mail you need some will sell all cheep transmit tubes for radios new box gain uhf mobile antennas motorola used sold new for make reasonable offer sell for shipping motorcycle control head and cable with frequency selector and speaker all one channel believe this came from micom asking shipping channel elements for motorola micor mitrek motrac sets vhf micor uhf micor low band motrac more mobile microphones for motorola and rca reasonable offer motorola remote adaptor model tln apr still have few business band service manuals esp and motorola mail for details phone restrict toll boxes use quarters dtmf mobile mic master pro uhf mobile not working with accessories this trunk mount radio shipping base cabinet rack duplexer cabinet from vhf duplexers rack base cabinet johnson satellite dish jack arm spools multi conductor wire shield thickness approx master pro mobile control heads and cables eagle model level sensor tells how full container the above prices not include shipping some the above items are pickup only because size weight locations eastern ohio interested mail you can call jim sims jdp before eastern sims vax cns muskingum edu
misc.forsale	airline ticket between canada and europe carrib latinam have one round trip ticket good for travel between usa canada and europe hawaii latin america the caribbean fully transferable and can used originating here there had intended use visit grandfather who was sick but died before got there have use for now looking for best offer but act fast will gone april matter what patrick pat wrs com
misc.forsale	madison chicago italy air ticket wanted looking for round trip madison chicago milan italy air ticket anybody who has transferable ticket but will not use please contact beng cae wisc edu open jaw ticket highly desired thank you ting beng cae wisc edu
misc.forsale	multisync nec monitor for sale have nec multisync monitor for sale great condition looks new dot pitch svga monitor that syncs from khz compatible with all aga amiga graphics modes leave message interested make offer
misc.forsale	forsale sony diskman newsgroups rec audio misc forsale distribution subject forsale sony diskman
misc.forsale	nextstation for sale nextstation mhz moto dsp megapixel perfect dimming shaking keyboard mouse course installed docs network and system administration user reference applications the next book bruce webster new copy black nextconnection modem cable disks still unwrapped box others for backing apps need sell this pronto get car engine locked machine runs great only used house has been covered when not use the days wasn around including federal express second day air best offer cod your doorstep within continental need sell this now you don agree with the price make offer but within reason thanks please letters asking donate for tax break
misc.forsale	computer books for sale updated list updated list everybody have the following books for sale some these books are brand new you find any book you like and need more information about please feel free send mail the buyers pays the shipping fees thanks abou sun soe clarkson edu title windows programming introduction author william murray iii chris pappas publish osborne mcgraw hill cover soft note covers windows asking title harvard graphics the complete reference author cary jensen loy anderson publish osborne mcgraw hill cover soft note covers releases through draw partner asking title high performance interactive graphics modeling rendering and animating author lee adams publish windcrest cover soft note full examples programs basic asking title science and engineering applications the ibm author severin publish abacus cover soft note lot examples basic asking title graphics for the dot matrix printer how get your printer perform miracles author john davenport publish simon schuster cover soft note full examples programs basic asking title programming with turbo author scott zimmerman beverly zimmerman publish scott foresman and cover soft note some the pages are highlighted asking title introduction computer graphics author john demel michael miller publish brooks cole engineering division cover soft note example programs basic and fortran asking title hard disk mangement the pocket reference author kris jamsa publish osborne mcgraw hill cover soft note pocket size asking
misc.forsale	forsale and wanted fax typewriter from article seven east sun com jorge erex east sun com jorge lach sun bos hardware looking buy the following items fax machine plain one don need any extras just the basic model good working order only these sell stores for dirt cheap don make any offers like cost but sell for hard drive mfm type mbytes half height only have seagate machine looking for same similar type have the following item for sale electronic typewriter panasonic with memory small lcd display selling bundled with panasonic computer interface for this typewriter you can connect any parallel port sorry cable works perfect even windows tty printer great you need send letter with typewriter look stand alone mode has pitches and several effects like underline bold overstrike built dictionary and character word line correction asking for both the typewriter and the interface jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge lach east sun com east coast division chelmsford
misc.forsale	forsale sony discman sony portable diskman forsale good condition flawless costomer adapter power supply tested the factory adapter was tested input the time bought three years ago when using lot heat was generated inside the machine course wouldn use risk this baby life maybe that why many owners always complain about their portable machine going kaput after short time usage factory suggested led display asking plus shipping contact harry interested
misc.forsale	intel memory board for sale have intel above board bit with megs ram that would like sell asap please email offers interested thanks fred
misc.forsale	womens bike for sale have the following bike for sale type dave scott centurion model size grouppo shimano cranks pedals shimano with clips and straps frame tange double butted steel gearing front rear seat terry womens gel seat computer avocet extras double water bottle cages extra rear tire front rear setup wife asking for obo let know you are interested the address below thanks mike michael whitman national system engineer telecom pyramid technology corporation gallows road suite vienna phone pager sky page pin mike pyrdc pyramid com uunet pyrdc mike
misc.forsale	roland for sale for sale roland best offer excellent condition includes over patches disk cakewalk sysex format buyer must pay cod shipping please mail responses gms cwru edu thanks george george scott gscott student cwru edu gms cwru edu
misc.forsale	for sale longer use quarter inch tape for backups and have case unopened for sale sell the lot boxes tapes each rob spellman rob mother bates edu computing support services bates college
misc.forsale	books for sale ann arbor books for sale tally any and all the books you want and send message shipping will mail parcel post book rate payment advance cod accepted all books are good excellent condition paperbacks unless noted quantity discounts this list updated continually the latest list can requested mail this list supercedes all previous lists not responsible for typos new listing claimed but not paid for yet david hwang ann arbor michigan david ganglion ann arbor list february computers using wordperfect que stewart using clipper que tiley trs assembly language programming barden practical programs games basic tracton first book wordperfect barnes corvettes car parts and illustration catalog manual secrets corvette detailing antonick eckler complete guide corvette fiberglass repair corvette owners workshop manual haynes chevrolet power catalog manual edition corvette driver owner guide for models antonick chevrolet small block speed equipment buyers guide lamm chilton easy car care edition medicine ophthalmology study guide for medical students washington manual medical therapeutics respiratory physiology the essentials west langman medical embryology sadler hardcover sold essentials human anatomy woodburne hardcover sold cardiology reference book kloner handbook antimicrobial therapy mandell guide antimicrobial therapy sanford free with med books comprehensive review the basic sciences sold how get into medical dental school sexual interactions allgeier hardcover call principles and protocols ruedy physicans desk reference pdr hardcover introduction general pathology spector medical school admissions strategy for success weschler getting into medical school brown ten point plan for college acceptance graham other college accounting carson hardcover david hwang university michigan medical school wall street suite telephone ann arbor michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor
misc.forsale	music for sale the following listed tapes are priced sell friend mine wants get rid them let just have some bids why don all are tapes btw back black good condition razor edge excellent poison open and excellent flesh blood excellent guns roses appetite for destr fair use your ill good use your ill good skid row bside ourselves tape case cracked slave the grind excellent jackyl jackyl excellent bon jovi keep the faith single excellent this for her not for jason
misc.forsale	meg ide harddrive western digital ide meg hard drive shipping greg holdren gregh hprnd rose com geh mothra rose com
misc.forsale	what wrong with this picture article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes fellow netters anybody awake out there when someone posted message telling people stop posting computer ads the misc forsale group got about thirty response here not mention the rash mail sure received yet another person posts message with the subject line blow and even worse text and only people have the guts say anything the majority not mention the thread about selling someone wife guy therefore not overly bummed but little common sense would dictate that this offensive many women and not really necessary scott ferguson exxon research engineering project engineer new jersey all opinions not official view exxon must ask the question are going play stonehenge tonight
misc.forsale	wanted spi war the ring the subject line says all trying locate copy spi board game war the ring anyone have copy with which they are willing part thanks million tony tlin stat berkeley edu
misc.forsale	need sharp parts information looking for sharp travelmate for parts mine has bad ram chip the motherboard and want see what can get for parts before sending off sharp for repairs you have one drop line also trying set one for friend who needs read his old inch diskettes anyone have the pinout the diskette expansion connector the back the inch floppy box you respond please include phone number can always get through with email always thanks jim lewczyk mailer address buggy reply jiml strauss ftcollinsco ncr com james lewczyk ncr mpd fort collins jim lewczyk ftcollinsco ncr com
misc.forsale	what wrong with this picture article apr erenj com srfergu rufus erenj com scott ferguson writes article apr iscsvax uni edu harter iscsvax uni edu writes fellow netters anybody awake out there when someone posted message telling people stop posting computer ads the misc forsale group got about thirty response here not mention the rash mail sure received yet another person posts message with the subject line blow and even worse text and only people have the guts say anything the majority not mention the thread about selling someone wife guy therefore not overly bummed but little common sense would dictate that this offensive many women and not really necessary good point but was just thinking wanted sell calculator here this newsgroup called calculator but really computer albeit small one but does function one how come car adds are acceptable they cant run without computers nowadays where does one draw the line accept live with and you care avoid jonathan have lots common sense just choose ignore calvin jonathan sawitsky some random wierdo martimer wpi wpi edu
misc.forsale	super scope for sale snes hello folks super scope for sale comes with crt and all boxes and instructions included shipping included got that only month back and used only twice ooo ooo ooo ooo srikanth ponnapalli mail address pobox raleigh sponna eos ncsu edu phone ponna aza csc ncsu edu after sponnapa math ncsu edu
misc.forsale	sale canon eos elan outfit for sale canon eos elan outfit included eos elan body usm lens usm lens filters hoya circular polarising filter canon remote controller pentax lens cloth lowe pro camera bag galen rowell photoflex lens bag sapre lithium battery hove foto bokk user guide canon eos elan all new condition the whole lot firm contact david please not mail your queries all talks only phone
misc.forsale	value kathy pat sday stand article dsblack vincent iastate edu dsblack iastate edu vilkata tdk writes heard one these newsgroups week two ago that the kathy ireland budweiser posters were popular there are supposedly half size and life size posters well someone know got life size stand cardboard thick damn good quality one and was wondering what was worth anybody what about the pat posters from last year have stack about twenty and two the card board cutouts they are not for sale collect them
misc.forsale	help how get scumster everyone need advice what the best way get scumster several weeks ago posted article behalf friend who wanted external for mac the scumster called friend and they agreed price friend unexperienced and not too fluent english paid check requesting call him back when the check arrives and the send well the check was cashed and that that phone that gave the answering machine all the time and there reaction when the message left mail address does not bounce but again there answer know that student university delaware have his mail address his postal address and his phone the question what the best way proceed thanks advance for any advice sincerely victor levenson vvl virginia edu the reason did not put full name that still hope get enough responses will post summary maybe even regular basis victor levenson tel lab dept biochemistry internet vvl virginia edu
misc.forsale	sampler for sale people really need sell this sampler pay off bills even going include sample cds worth least separately this deal emax with standard memory and bit stereo sampling rackmount and has least voice pol got brand new connor meg internal scsi drive old never used works perfect and runs perfect addition access friends sound library over gig sounds available all this for only the sample are based dance house techno stuff email call thanks mike
misc.forsale	amiga etc for sale article isg csugrad edu dwilson csugrad edu david wilson writes for sale amiga mhz unix compatible machine meg hard drive meg ram monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo mind asking why you selling used machine with damaged keyboard for the about the same price brand new megs meg ide floppy like get locally for something reasonable like less than without monitor brand new the mhz meg floppy rom isn running for more than considering damaged probabably has real old version the offer don laugh isn worth more than these days tzeng nigel tzeng sig under construction
misc.forsale	for sale book life multi volume book set unopened was wrong guess they are closer new will probably still sell them for the above implied obo email you want more specifics this really attractive set books kind bible encyclopedia set also email you know more about these books post the information here
misc.forsale	wanted airconditioner looking for good used window air conditioner small one preffered call peter and talk about email khiet ecn
misc.forsale	wanted futon looking for large futon and frame call peter mail khiet ecn
misc.forsale	misc electronic eqpt panasonic combo black cordless speaker phone all one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and works with universal remotes works great but replaced with stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping you are interested either the above mail radley gibbs out unc edu major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university north carolina
misc.forsale	bernoulli removeable scsi drive disks storage space for sale iomega removeable for sale cartridges total storage space comes out about cartridges still original shrinkwrapping unused note this not compatible with sysquest cartridges scsi interface required plugs right into the back macintoshes but don have controller for the ibm all utilities have for are for the mac you have mac then this for you have ton software these disks that don use anymore because sold mac system stuff included most the stuff from info mac site lots gif and lots sound effects entire disk with just sounds asking for all plus shipping for more information send mail cxs ultb isc rit edu call ask for sawran cheers chris cxs ultb isc rit edu cxs ritvax isc rit edu
misc.forsale	electronics panasonic combo black cordless speaker phone all one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and works with universal remotes works great but replaced with stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping you are interested either the above mail radley gibbs out unc edu major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university north carolina
misc.forsale	hard drives etc for sale hard drives all drives include manuals warranty fujitsu gigabyte scsi hard drive quantum meg scsi prodrive fujitsu meg scsi hard drive apple zero footprint hard drive case with power supply accellerated video apple accellerated graphics card with software init millions colors fast hardcopy apple imagewriter printer with spare print head these aren cheap fax machine baud with leather travel case and many other accessories discuss the purchase any these items call john you get the answering machine please leave message with your name and phone number letting know which piece you are interested john not reply this account
misc.forsale	your custom resume disk your custom resume disk macintosh ibm compatible never pay the high cost copy service again will completely develop and format your custom resume package and mail you the disk transmit the information via electronic mail within hours with over years experience the employment industry and member the national resume writer association you can leave the burden developing your resume you can easily custom edit all information target each company and position complete package includes custom developed resume custom cover letter custom follow letter custom interview thank you letter custom job acceptance letter custom job decline letter custom resignation letter laser printed copies high quality paper available upon request contact vicki burns via mail unix andrew cmu edu telephone
misc.forsale	seagate hard drive forsale brand new never been used seagate meg hard drive forsale paid includes mounting brackets bought and then ended buying new computer bro takes
misc.forsale	porsche porsche turbo trim spoilers graphite black all around excellent condition removable factory sunroof leather interior new new timing belt bra miles obo patrick patrick boylan wind river systems alameda pat wrs com
misc.forsale	bunch stuff for sale got few things want get rid paradise ega casper ega monitor mhz motherboard dram sipp mhz momboard dram only hayes prodigy special external modem meg sipp sipp about megs dram believe there and one but not absolutely sure also have with serial board hercules board and amber monitor the only thing this system missing the power supply make offer any all this stuff and thanx for contributing mitch bis modem fund mitch note cross posted several forsale froups followups redirected back there reason for that don read these groups mitch gorman srscnslt telesciences com things are not what they seem through crack mother earth blazing hot the molten rock spills out over the land and the lava the lover who licks your boots away
misc.forsale	electronics panasonic combo black cordless speaker phone all one new now shipping obo curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and works with universal remotes works great but replaced with stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included plus shipping you are interested either the above mail radley gibbs oit unc edu call keith made type email address the first posting now correct major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university north carolina
misc.forsale	microsoft dos upgrade for sale adn ritvax isc rit edu writes article pctnfinn eve usc edu yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered does anyone care enlighten whether dos worth upgrading how good compression and can turned off will any other nice nasty features according reports you don have dos yet and don have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may worth for people who have dos and some sort utility dos doesn offer much you never know from the usual hype that marketing able create however tom hatton hatton cgl ucsf edu
misc.forsale	fax via mail finally fax service all internet users the continental without prepayment any kind this service provided information system international based fishers indiana isifisher aol com internet user your credit has been automatically approved you can start sending faxes right now how send fax use this service mail isifisher aol com the following format your name your phone number your mailing address the number you send fax the recipient name and company the address and phone number the recipient optional fax content your fax will sent out within hours every fax will include standard cover sheet free charge which contains your name your phone number your address the recipient name and company upon sending out your fax receipt will sent for your record important this your first time use the fax service you must include the following paragraph the beginning your mail hereby authorize information system international open fax account for agree pay all charges incurred upon receiving monthly bill what format acceptable only plain ascii format and rich text format rtf are acceptable for plain ascii format times new roman fonts point size will used for rtf format your fax document will appear exactly the same would appear your local laser printer almost all word processing software mackintosh sun workstation etc you can save your document rtf format how pay the first time you use our fax service will open account for you under your name you will billed each month you have balance when your balance has been over whichever comes first cost the cost for continental excluding hawaii alaska only for the first page for each additional page each fax will include cover sheet which free you plan use this service you should save the entire text posted above
misc.forsale	price quote wanted from sam halperin cccbbs uceng mhz zero insertion force socket empty over drive socket eisa motherboard with cache bit eisa slots bit vesa local bus slots bit isa slots ram simms sockets filled with strips sockets open bit eisa ide hard drive controller meg ide hard disk drive cache diamond viper weitek vesa local bus graphics card mag monitor serial afn uart parralell game ports full tower case watt power supply bays bays hard drive bays floppy drives enhanced key keyboard resolution dpi serial mouse dos and windows newer ami bios joint data motherboard day money back gaurantee unconditional year parts warranty lifetime labor warranty one year nationwide site service this system currently availble from comtrade the company that won some the highest over dell gateway and ibm awards recent magazine reviews your price must highly competitive without sacrificing any the quality standards listed above please respond sam halperin cccbbs uceng via mail
misc.forsale	mfm controller copy card for sale bit mfm controller copy card software and cable can copy any protected software interested please reply this account wun chun chau what crazy world internet wchau eng buffalo edu uucp rutgers uunet buffalo edu wchau internet wchau buffalo edu bitnet wchau buffalo edu ubvm bitnet you want die young you know what mean
misc.forsale	florida vacation package forsale the package called sun and sand includes days nights accommodations orlando and daytona beach hotels are selected from major hotel chains and family resorts two adults and three children fully transferable expires for extention one more year needs days advance reservation esp for peak season the reservation department will offer coupon book which may give you saving price bought for which good deal for peak seasons for now will not turn down any reasonable offers must sell doesn include transportation and you have pay day for hotel tax please mail your respond
misc.forsale	your custom resume disk article zhq andrew cmu edu tami grudzinski andrew cmu edu writes your custom resume disk macintosh ibm compatible never pay the high cost copy service again will completely develop and format your custom resume package and mail you the disk blah blah blah deleted who carnegie mellon
misc.forsale	house for sale mediterranean coast spain mediterranean investment property for sale javea alicante spain costa blanca villa large lot the wooded pine hills above the noise bedrooms living dining room glassed sun porch kitchen bathroom large lot surrounded traditional white wall with wrought iron gates room for ground pool minutes from the sea and supermarket minutes from town and full amenities area has specially favourable microclimate mentioned who climate report seat fiat runabout car years old may included the deal ideal for retirement family holiday resort must sell for family reasons asking reply email call canada simon curry executive director tele the royal society canada fax box ottawa email curry doe carleton simon curry tele the royal society canada fax box ottawa email curry doe carleton
misc.forsale	delay sampler hey interested buying digital delay pedal preferably capable sampling and infinite repeat you familiar with phil keaggy want mimic least close possible what does concert click the pedal play something click again and what played between clicks repeats infinitely while playes leads over anyway let know jason dietrijj mentor purdue edu
misc.forsale	datman for sale article bdavisc yum netcom com bdavis netcom com bryan davis writes sony tcd dat walkman for sale hardly used still under warrantee comes with optical digital input output well standard rca analog cables includes recharable battery charger and adaptor best offer just inform the readers newsrc sony has just introduced new datman the tcd which smaller and less expensive than the also the has coaxial jack which the lacks the has always been available through mail order houses for less than dollars new with the new model coming out suspect the now obsolete will selling for even less the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
misc.forsale	wanted used audio mixer looking for used inexpensive audio mixer need least channels stereo input and channel stereo output but would prefer more input channels each channel needs have least volume control consider buying broken equipment the mixer needs fairly small haven got lot space for john lange jlange zippy radian com radian corp box austin
misc.forsale	logitech scanman would like sell logitech hand held gray scale scanner originally bought toy and have practical use for hardly ever used package includes board scan mate software ansel image editing software all original manuals box etc originally bought for jan selling for interested let know hans meyer
misc.forsale	twin size mattress boxsprng frame for sale twin size mattress box spring and frame for sale medico pedic type mattress excellent condition yrs old well maintained you come and pick stuff located paloalto asking for contact suresh mail suresh dec com suresh balasubramanian suresh dec com digital equipment corp
misc.forsale	space rack for sale lower price posting this message for friend mine who does not have computer account you have any questions please call dan equipment rack for sale space eia rack carpet covered wheels shipping
misc.forsale	equipment nes carts cordless phone for sale lower prices have few things sell all items are great condition all prices include shipping you have any questions contact mail call darryl equipment mixer case with pop rails patch cords meters gold tips records casualties war inch single eric rakim get some inch single eyc boo tribe black magic salt pepa heart break new edition the right stuff vanessa williams misc toshiba cordless phone books each book priced marked microcomputers for management fuhrman buck decison making edition statistics fresh approach sanders eng murph quantitative approaches levin rubin management stinson
misc.forsale	for sale robotics baud modem obo upgrading computer systems fax modems and selling baud usr modems without fax error correction one internal the other external both are robotics the highest rated modem manufacturer add shipping pick the washington area offers welcome would trade either for simm john baker
misc.forsale	sale computer misc books rpg stuff etc article apr kuhub ukans edu jamiller kuhub ukans edu writes the following are for sale duh golden image dpi hand scanner dpaint iii amiga vision mulitmedia authorizing software baud bandit terminal communication software the bard tale iii thief fate graphic rpg retaliator flight simulator future wars fantasy scifi graphic rpg rvf honda motocycle simulation patlabor ingram and phantom labor models japanese anime models robotech rpg books english the ingrid invasion southern cross battletech books english the fox teeth exploits mckinnon raiders gray death legion mercenary handbook citytech aerotech mechwarrior books monster manual monster manual fiend folio lots books japanese and english subjects japanese culture asian art history japanese language socio linguistics ethnography linguistics physics calculaus menum and folis unix and amiga programming economics micro macro intl trade finance american economic development and philosophy language ethics cognition science there something you think you might interested let know and tell you what have jamiller kuhub ukans edu james miller chicchai sig ichiban iin janai enlightenment happens jamiller kuhub ukans edu james miller chicchai sig ichiban iin janai enlightenment happens
misc.forsale	intel modem for sale intel baud modem external bis very good working condition never had any problems obo leave daytime number for fastest response the kilowatt bbs deer park
misc.forsale	for sale trade ibm games ibm games for sale trade adventure eric the unready legend king quest sierra rom edition sports michael jordan flight electronic arts mike ditka ultimate football accolade david ledbetter greens microprose strategy risk virgin this software comes with all original packaging and manuals price includes ground shipping continental will trade for current games send your list chris davis ccdavis nuwave ingr com
misc.forsale	misc stuff for sale misc items for sale walkman aiwa model year old mint condition hardly used autoreverse band equalizer super bass dolby noise reduction tuner paid asking shipping mount plate sony model cpm mounting plate for sony portable players for portable plugs into car lighter snaps onto the bottom any sony player portable player perfect condition will also throw cassette adapter condition paid asking shipping factory stereo from toyota with radio autoreverse cassette cassette deck digital tuning like new condition only car months car stereo asking shipping car speakers sherwood two way car speakers car for months inch excellent condition paid asking shipping inch factory speakers from toyota excellent condition asking shipping nintendo nintendo game boy light boy tetris super mario land gameboy nfl football castlevania adventure hyper lode runner years games old all working condition asking shipping accessories whole internet the whole internet user guide and catalog krol book guide using the internet where fing information and resources paid asking shipping microsoft never used came with computer asking shipping visual basic microsoft for windows never used came with computer quick sells new student edition for asking shipping please resond fields cis ohio state edu thanks jonathan fields
misc.forsale	vacation netters have the following vacation packages for sale bahamas vacation round trip tickets freeport grand bahamas double occupancy hotel accomodation per person per night orlando florida las vegas reno lake tahoe vacation one round trip airline ticket from major airports the the above mentioned destinations hotel accomodation for people for days nights for those who are interested drop mail clim cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	shipping costs article usenet ins cwru edu kxj cwru edu kijin jung writes previous article tomc arezzo oas olivetti com tom carlino says recently bought musical instrument through the internet and had shipped via ups ground the shipping was done through mail box service mailboxes etc being somewhat surprised the price compared prices shipping this way shipping directly through ups and this summary not making any endorsements condemnations but merely presenting the facts from which you may draw your own conclusions encountered the same thing with mailboxes etc and suggest anyone use the original ups service all possible shipping virginia from cleveland was around for pounds and was opposed for ups third the opinion about this outfit franchise now when buy over the net and pick the shipping costs specify that only pick the normal ups charges delivered directly ups been burned shipping charges for pkg will never use mailing service unless don have the right box and the buyer needs whatever immediately also tell the person they agreed pick shipping what going other things watch out for consider the rates are higher than ups direct for non ups truck package they quoted rate fed economy air was only for the same weight rps trucking package company many cities only wanted guess who got the mailbox operator told was not telling the truth about competitors rates said rps was unreliable used them before with problems etc right cod check goes the mailing service our local mailbox then takes its sweet time mailing the remade check all this for additional over the ups cod charge what deal for packages over they charge you about double over what ups charges them for insurance never had claim but other netters ralph seguin out there have told horror stories about them all package traces have done through mailbox mailbox our local mailbox operator told was lying when asked him why their rates were stratospheric compared direct ups does ever check probably not their ups ground rates come close fed economy air rate and fed will pick ups will pick for charge most areas dave medin phone ssd networking intergraph corp internet dtmedin catbyte ingr com huntsville uucp uunet ingr catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look least around office the opinions expressed here are mine those machine
misc.forsale	heavy metal the magazine for sale not the music cleaning out the coffers have virtually mint collection heavy metal magazine this not music mag but the really neato mag with giger and moebius artwork jam packed with amazing sci and fantasy artwork many masters all are mint with the exception the that have split seam the cover only but are otherwise perfect cut outs missing pages have sep nov and dec issues for all issues for and jan thru sep for issues all believe will not break them they will sold single lot send your offers shipping not included these are pretty heavy course you are local mass usa you can come get person arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	for sale old jazz magazines the following jazz magazines will for the best offer received shipping not included these are pretty heavy course you are local mass usa you can come get person all are great condition these will one lot will not break them metronome sep feb june nov dec june nov downbeat jan was newspaper sized folded jan feb dec mar apr may may jun jul sep dec dec aug oct oct dec dec jan apr jul sep dec feb feb jun nov apr aug sep oct oct feb mar may jun jul jul aug sep dec may may jun jun jul aug mar mar may may nov also will toss free jazz journal feb apr and coda magazine jun dec arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	cds priced for immediate sale hey now the following cds are still available offers trades considered gowan lost brotherhood katrina the waves break hearts joe cocker live charles neville diversity thanks rich
misc.forsale	microsoft dos upgrade for sale article hatton cgl ucsf edu hatton socrates ucsf edu tom hatton writes adn ritvax isc rit edu writes does anyone care enlighten whether dos worth upgrading how good compression and can turned off will any other nice nasty features according reports you don have dos yet and don have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may worth for people who have dos and some sort utility dos doesn offer much you never know from the usual hype that marketing able create however imho seems worth the upgrade doublespace seems bit saner than stacker which replaced memmaker nowhere near aggressive qemm but doesn hose system like qemm did least hasn yet microsoft antivirus just the latest version reasonably recent one cpav mine was very aged this was quite welcome dos ain the end all all operating systems but better than sharp stick the eye unless you happen into that sort thing lee preimesberger jetson edu undergraduate scum university houston usa there freedom choice for every choice but mine
misc.forsale	mattel electronics baseball for sale trade best offer anyone still interested have one mattel electronic game left for sale trade baseball tan case and includes volt battery and the original manual was able sell soccer and basketball for and traded the football game for genesis cart was happy will entertain all offers cash genesis carts the way baseball excellent condition and works perfectly thanx advance dave
misc.forsale	forsale genesis games kelvin williams kwill lunatix uucp wrote these games are forsale trade sonic hedgehog two copies manuals and cases each brand new hello interested sonic but when send the address below get mail bounced back with host unknow error please reply kwill lunatix uucp subject games paul wood pcwood astro ocis temple edu
misc.forsale	tech books for sale cheap someone please buy these books not asking much liquidation send your offer reasonable offer refused first come first served just want get rid these books just make offer calculus analytic geometry authur simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable give shipping incl and its yours writing good software fortran graham smith shipp incl general chemistry principles modern applications petrucci fourth edition big book this book following books for all solutions manual for chemistry book study guide for chemistry book send your offers via email chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	items for sale items for sale howard miller clock chimes like grandfather clock painting tiger the snow beautiful painting the tiger looks like can jump off the canvas and get you mens diamond ring size rows diamonds gold call email donald walker
misc.forsale	more rolex imitations jammer dit geen fantastische advertentie over nep rolexen maar een evenzo duidelijke mededeling hieromtrent aangezien het alleen aanbieden van deze horloges onder vermelding van echte merknaam niet geheel correct wil met dit bericht duidelijk maken dat marcel engelbertink niet meer zal adverteren met imitatie horloges van het merk rolex enig persoon die hierin geiinteresseerd kan jammer genoeg ook niet meer helpen for all the foreign people who can even understand dutch spite earlier mailing about fake rolex announce that don have any information available any longer and won use the trade name rolex anymore for those fake models yours fakefully engelbertink
misc.forsale	mazda glc for sale want sell mazda glc for excellent working condition just passed inspection has sun roof marks body contact soon kohli ecs umass edu kohli
misc.forsale	irwin owners don miss this deal tapes irwin suggests the use pre formatted tapes for their tape drives you often can successfully format tape and need bulk erase before you can format again anyway have some new preformatted tapes for irwin tape drives irwin accutrak series new never used rhomat format wraped email interested feng the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
misc.forsale	gameboy games trade for genesis game gear gameboy games uupdate have the following gameboy games available for trade pitfighter metroid bases loaded blades steel malibu beach volleyball world cup soccer tennis spiderman robocop motocross maniacs double dribble basketball looking for genesis games missile command gameboy game gear games please leave mail interested thanx dave webb still waiting hear from allen thoren about trading volleyball for missile command please get touch also waiting hear from raul rombh cunyvm cuny edu about genesis trade
misc.forsale	web spiderman auction update web spiderman auction list issues annuals this set will auctioned complete set there enough interest the books have been quickly evaluated for grade all books are unless noted below these were ascertained when putting the books into new bags with boards books per bag small dinks spine spine slightly rolled small crease front cover dinks spine slight tear edge front cover spine dinged cover pages crinkled from humidity crinkled form water damage cover not flat shipping smudge cover spine dinked small dinks spine spine dinks tiny crease top left corner cover dinks spine paper clip mark small spine dinks slight spine roll spine dinks back cover crease cover wrinkled annual slight spine roll cover marks current high bid bidder jon jon tivoli the successful bidder assuming there one will have the books sent ups cod cash money order will added the total successful bid cover these charges bid accordingly thanks mike
misc.forsale	nintendo games and control deck forsale nintendo control deck with two controllers and gun one controller has grips attached the nes will only connect composite monitor with audio and video rca input jacks and needs some repairs best offer games for sale tecmo baseball techmo bowl double dribble wayne gretzky hockey golf super mario duck hunt super mario super mario iii teenage mutant ninja turtles the arcade game megaman toobin spelunker tecmo super bowl total give all them you for the best offer and throw the control deck also accept the best offer for each the games individually the oldest these two years old most them are less than year old email tligman andy bgsu edu phone tom warning signature under construction enter your own risc
misc.forsale	preamp and player forsale forsale proton preamplifier about years old originally asking best offer has inputs for tape tape phono video and tuner separate listen and record selectors bass subharmonic filter and mono switch high quality volume potentiometer excellent condition with original boxes and manual sony portable diskman this the one designed play the mini you can play normal size cds but the disk sticks out the side works well but may skip occasionally should tuned heads aligned cleaned etc excellent condition has not been used all that much with carrying case original list was think but take best offer would good for office just sit your desk please email eric enterprise bih harvard edu telephone eric eric hansen eric enterprise bih harvard edu center for clinical computing boston dos mac programming ultrix administration general chaos
misc.forsale	heavy metal the magazine for sale not the music article prs eqp transfer stratus com arthur noguerola vos stratus com writes cleaning out the coffers have virtually mint collection heavy metal magazine this not music mag but the really neato mag with giger and moebius artwork jam packed with amazing sci and fantasy artwork many masters all are mint with the exception the that have split seam the cover only but are otherwise perfect cut outs missing pages have sep nov and dec issues for all issues for and jan thru sep for issues all believe will not break them they will sold single lot send your offers shipping not included these are pretty heavy course you are local mass usa you can come get person arthur noguerola vos stratus com you send offers this guy keep mind that you can get mint back issues from the publisher for plus shipping all except the very first three issues
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale for sale the baltimore area one mac with radius bit color dual page display and adapter microtek color scanner qms colorscript color postscript printer baud modem dyanfile with and meg floppies software packages including pagemaker quark express style photoshop etc obo one compaq lte with internal modem and meg ram hard drive obo one compaq slt with meg ram and meg hard drive obo one compaq motherboard only make offer this has just returned from compaq service six muxes with baud modems built make offer cpu from multi user turbodos system offer contact elliott office home delliott digex com internet
misc.forsale	humminbird depth sounder forsale have humminbird hdr depth sounder for sale has been used for season sailboat all parts are included well the installation instructions even packed the original box came there damage the unit the transducer fact the transducer was mounted inside the hull piece pipe glued the hull led sheltered life the transducer can mounted either inside the hull did the transom cannot placed hole drilled into your hull fully waterproof and fits into hole bulkhead that where had installed into standard dashboard powerboat reads depth and has backlit lcd display has adjustable shallow water alarm built changing out instruments another manufacturer that outputs the nmea information this little depth sounder works fine and very stable usually priced low some catalogs paid the first takes best offer john miller catalina tinker toy
misc.forsale	south jersey condo have recently graduated and looking move into bigger house leaving with condo sell was originally listed but now listed the following list features master bedroom bedroom living room dining room kitchen extra cabinets full modern bathroom full wtw carpeting new excluding bath oil hot water heating converting gas this summer central air condo fee including heat hot water landscaping pool tennis courts addition washer dryer both condo refrigerator dishwasher ceiling fans all window treatments don understand why can call them curtains and mantle large storage room private basement plenty undesignated parking you like free for the bliss regular homeownership please call kathleen sullivan the rohrer sayers real estate agency she arrange for showing off now for that disclaimer caca subject errors changes ommissions withdrawls and sales without notice this posting not benefit the request any commercial agency simply want out flames can sent dev null thanks pnelson clam rutgers edu paul nelson systems hardware integration technician
misc.forsale	software unlimited sorry waste the bandwidth does anyone know software mail order company called software unlimited ordered software from them and they charged credit card but never did send the package call them many times but nobody answer the phone also check computer shoppers and found they don advertise anymore you know they are still business you know how contact them please tell thank you very much ching tze
misc.forsale	incredible car incredible price brother preparing pay another year college expenses and asked post this alfa romeo gold milano model engine power everything seats comfortably looks runs great contact brian wall interested dallas area
misc.forsale	laser printer forsale repost the following posted for friend you can send replies this email address call him glen have citizen overture laser printer for sale excellent condition has been used less than one year this drum asking but all offers will considered below are some specs toner lifespan pages drum lifespan pages resolution dpi memory emulation epson ibm proprinter diablo printing capacity quad density graphics tray capacity sheets reason for sale financial need pay tuition thanks glen anderson bigelos hobo ece orst edu
misc.forsale	cds for sale the following are available for each includes postage usa ted nugent penetrator jah wobble rising above bedlam black marshall tucker band long hard ride kid frost east side story coffin break thirteen steve wariner band got dreams
misc.forsale	novice beekeeper seeks tools trade you like find home for that beekeeping equipment you never use again here likely victim customer make deal call laura forbes during regular business hours respond through mail and pass your message along
misc.forsale	reciever player keyboards for sale the following items are for sale onkyo reciever amplifier only months old perfect condition wpc stereo speaker ability channel memory has digital and direct tuning also plus also have earphone jack bought for new asking for less than best offer gets obviously price dropped offers far what the deal recievers needed two zeos ibm external keyboards under month old bought for each new selling for piece for both pay shipping snes has been sold and the player still hasn been sold you offer more will instantly send you ask for stats the player yoshi yoshi atlantis orst edu
misc.forsale	altec lansing subwoofers for sale the headline says all god hope works god hope works damn should have know that stood for rarely functional arlo georgia institute technology atlanta georgia aude internet prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	wanted summer sublease washington spending this summer washington working bowie does anyone have summer sublease that they like unload the area from about may august please mail any pertinent info kimgh mentor purdue edu thanks advance gene
misc.forsale	diamond stealth bit svga for sale brand new still shrink wraped stealth for sale plus shipping and cod specifications based bit coporcessor million system requires based isa vesa bus with fast turbowindows drivers for and other drivers for other popular softwares like microsoft word lotus autocad
misc.forsale	tektronix scope for sale tektronix scope for sale mhz bandwidth portable not one the series boatanchors delayed sweep works fine don have the manual they are available from various places probes shipping email for more info regards keith keith kanoun kdk radio nuwc navy mil
misc.forsale	video title maker for sale videonics title maker system about monthes old used only once includes character generator model rez available chars fonts stereo sound over million different colors available special effects full keyboard design mail for more details thums video editor model marks differnent sections tape thumbs thumbs down you can skip the bad parts tape built video enhancer for copying tapes viewing them automatic fader switchable use combination the above unit both units excellent condition comes with all docs unregistered warranty cards music world sells these for and respectively asking for both units email pchang sunysb edu you are interested ommon pchang sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook ngineer
misc.forsale	info ultrastor controller wanted netters does anyone know have any info the ultrastor line controller especially interested the and scsi controllers please email any info asap building system and that one the few conponents that missing thanks tri
misc.forsale	box chemicals for sale selling worth chemicals for split two for dollars apeice aprox bottles will make great chem set will pay shipping really interested will mail partial list please contact mail only omar
misc.forsale	engagement ring give diamond engagement ring gold band point diamond appraised dollars will sell for dollars appraisal available upon request send mail uafhp uark edu
misc.forsale	for sale quicken for the article pma hpk suntan usf edu boneham sunburn usf edu kevin boneham writes article pgvp inn phakt usc edu khoh usc edu oliver muoto writes have for sale quicken version that allows you balance assume you get new releases earlier than here last saw version was the latest probably referring the dos version the dos versions like version think the window version just came out recently only like version something ommon pchang sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook ngineer
misc.forsale	computer parts camcorder article cscns com zardox cscns com randie neal writes and drives new planned building machine but ran out funds each drive carl what brand drives are these you have documentation shipping you have documentation not pay for floppy drives they are about new also you not need documentation for floppies installation for these things are idiot proof just some advice ommon pchang sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook ngineer
misc.forsale	microsoft dos upgrade for sale article hatton cgl ucsf edu hatton socrates ucsf edu tom hatton writes adn ritvax isc rit edu writes article pctnfinn eve usc edu yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered does anyone care enlighten whether dos worth upgrading how good compression and can turned off will any other nice nasty features according reports you don have dos yet and don have any utilities qemm stacker pctools norton then dos may worth for people who have dos and some sort utility dos doesn offer much you never know from the usual hype that marketing able create however installed dos last week and had nothing but trouble afterwards windows apps are hitting protection faults more than kid can pinata and does not seem like work with ndos norton dos other probs include set pcplus pcplus for procomm plus longer works many the little utilities written for dos longer works either mostly shareware now have uninstalled dos and dos works just fine are there any apps that dos will able run that dos wont ommon pchang sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook ngineer
misc.forsale	food coupons looking save money your man will mail you food coupons for only you will get twice the dollar amount coupons mail and get dollars coupons sounds like great deal well send sase elizabeth salt lake city utah enclose money form money order personally would not trust person send coupons after money sent well let earn your trust send dollar and send you your store coupons then talk more mail enquiries uafhp uark edu thank you john schiefer
misc.forsale	casio digital diary for sale casio digital diary electronic organizer ram will hold approxmiately names phone numbers big line display year visible calendar schedule function memo bank telephone name number address storage calculator compact folding design fits your pocket the above for was originally purchased for over mail gsfever okcforum osrhe edu interested price does not include shipping
misc.forsale	psychnet article pfg innk skeena ucs ubc okabe unixg ubc ian okabe writes electronic networking for psychnet com professional psychology serving psychologists sychnet world wide whats with this psychnet thing its just about everyones posting matter where they post from its getting very annoying ian okabe okabe unixg ubc atmospheric sciences university british columbia vancouver canada experiment place not subliminal slightly cagey message front viewer and see how long takes create response and what was the response was the same thing with the blow message only had quicker response time and some unexpected responses along with the expectedly negative ones anyone see how long that took yours jest tom tom testagrossa mail ttesta kali enet dec com mail clarendon apt fitchburg phone work voicemail home ask about guitars
misc.forsale	parametric car hifonics ceres band parametric equalizer specs bands khz khz boost cut thd less than size wxhxd mmx mmx this has three variable bands indicated above with variable also has subwoofer output with variable cutoff frequency originally paid for the unit and used for months before selling the car excellent condition with all the wiring and hardware intact and manual original box asking price holmertz pops navo navy mil
misc.forsale	dodge wagon for sale dodge dart collectors have dodge anniversary dart wagon turn into cash asking price although can negotiate the car currently resides union city california thats the east side the san francisco bay area the state california the united states america the continent north america the planet earth third planetary body out from sol mid range yellowish star the western spiral arm the milkyway galaxy toowhit north silicon valley interested pleas contact scott the following means internet sbrogii tymnet com home answering machine business voice mail loud yell wave money out the window not recommended downtown urban environment also have bmw for sale
misc.forsale	macintosh for sale macintosh with ram and monochrome monitor ikegami for sale asking reasonable best offer will rejected contact konrad mon frii
misc.forsale	for sale and mirage rack mount sampler for sale roland drum machine near mint condition scratches fully operational sorry manuals asking shipping mirage rack mount sampler minor scratches around rack ear screws with advanced sampling option disks and both manuals long story but may have the turtle beach vision sample editing software for the ibm asking shipping send all mail requests barsz bnr regards peter barszczewski barsz bnr spirituality through technology bell northern research ltd montreal canada
misc.forsale	excel sdk for sale have the following for sale absolutely new won raffle and have use for microsoft excel software development kit version for windows and the apple macintosh contains page book microsoft press floppy disks containing software sample code poster the api calls etc orig price would like sell for the highest offer over shipping please email reply attmail akachhy thanks avinash kachhy
misc.forsale	answering machine phone panasonic phone with answering machine looks like brand new all basic answering machine function phone number memory recall function year old asking for interest please call alex choe
misc.forsale	chicago area roommate needed evanston non smoking roommate needed sublet carpeted apt evanston near the dempster stop parking available rent utils avail may beg end aug entire apt available sept roommate years old vegetarian non smoking female who works northwestern neat freaks please call denise nwu edu
misc.forsale	new disk for disk users this not commercial have alot new disks you have cdrom and are interested purchasing some these disks please download the list mentioned below night owl download the file cdromcat zip the freq the magic name catalog craig landgraf buckwheats pleasure dome internet usenet landgraf fidonet org podnet fidonet itcnet kinknet sganet bbs number you send email with your home address will mail you list your house the list pages long this you not have computer that you can call and get the list faster
misc.forsale	forsale drum things cheap north heavy duty hat stand older stand but definately working shape could use little clean comes with clutch and felts etc pearl bass drum pedal with felt beater honer cymbal stand needs some work cymbal stem zildjian ride cymbal main line zildjian older ride cymbal ludwig snare stand okay snare stand not like remo though shipping extra please email stephen jones sdf system administrator smj sdf lonestar org
misc.forsale	monitor add card apple iie computer need sell the following items apple iie computer includes baud modem columns zenith green monitor tons software and manuals controller card western digital wdat includes winchester controller floppy controller serial ports parallel port docs but jumper settings are printed the card aamazing dot pitch svga monitor interlaced unlimited colors includes documentation power cord and connecting cable must sell these items may make offer any them cliff kaminsky cliff engin umich edu
misc.forsale	hewlett packard deskjet inkjet printer for sale for sale hewlett packard deskjet inkjet printer perfect condition both internally and externally comes with two full ink cartridges less than six months old comes with all original packaging manuals cables and software this truly excellent printer and the low cost alternative laser printer prints with the quality laser printer but for fraction both the inital cost and long term cost that replacement ink cartridges opposed replacement toner the printer prints maximum ots nch many different types and sizes paper including envelopes and transperencies printer prints both landscape and portrait modes printer can accept two cartridges giving things like more memory additional fonts printer works excellently with windows and dos and brings truetype its full potential originally purchased the printer for make offer but would prefer stay the range will pay the shipping anywhere the continental you are interested please either leave email call kirk peterson anytime thanks the printer will work with any computer that can accept standard parallel serial connection that ibm amiga etc
misc.forsale	word processing utilities for sale these word processing utilities all include complete printed manuals and registration cards need get rid some excess they the latest versions priced these programs less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around grammatik for windows top rated grammar checker helps you improve your writing correcting grammar and usage mistakes now owned wordperfect list sale grammatik for dos top rated grammar checker helps you improve your writing correcting grammar and usage mistakes now owned wordperfect list sale correct grammar for windows top notch grammar checker from wordstar list sale correct grammar for dos top notch grammar checker from wordstar list sale correct writing for windows online writing manual from wordstar with tips about correct use punctuation capitalization compound words numerals bibliographies footnotes and more list sale random house webster electronic dictionary thesaurus for windows unlike spell checkers provides online definitions when you not sure word meaning also has larger thesaurus than most word processors for finding just the right word list sale random house webster electronic dictionary thesaurus for dos same functionality windows version list sale word finder plus for windows huge online thesaurus with more than one million synonyms list sale random house encyclopedia for dos online encyclopedia that you can use without needing rom drive easier use and less expensive than book based encyclopedia takes hard disk space list sale headliner dos based database great advertising and other headlines proverbs idioms song titles movie titles and great for advertising copywriters newspaper editors and others trying come with catchy phrases list sale writer toolkit for windows amazing collection seven different word processing utilities one package includes encyclopedia great quotations dictionary abbreviations dictionary with definitions thesaurus usage guide and grammar checker list sale you interested any these programs please phone philadelphia and save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha
misc.forsale	utilities for sale these utilities all include complete printed manuals and registration cards need get rid some excess they the latest versions priced these programs less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around tools for dos best selling utilities collections includes dos shell antivirus program backup program disk defragger memory optimizer remote communications link data protection and recovery utilities appointment book address book and more list sale norton backup for dos supports dos tape backup systems and lans twice fast backup dos highly automated and customizable list sale qaplus top rated dos based systems diagnostics program more comprehensive than anything included dos windows utilities collections invaluable for determining sources problems with ram video drives ports keyboard motherboard joystick mouse speaker and list sale you interested any these programs please phone philadelphia and save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha
misc.forsale	etc for sale these packages all include complete printed manuals and registration cards need get rid some excess they the latest versions priced these programs less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around can run windows dos and programs superior stability compared windows list sale norton commander for provides better file management than does alone graphical tree and file list drag and drop launch apps from customizable menu list sale you interested any these programs please phone philadelphia and save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha
misc.forsale	new software for sale these programs all include complete printed manuals and registration cards need get rid some excess they the latest versions priced these programs less than half the list price and significantly less than the cheapest mail order price around microsoft entertainment pack volume one includes eight different windows based games including tetris taipei minesweeper tictactics golf cruel pegged and idlewild list sale just joking for windows database jokes from wordstar can quickly find jokes for many different occasions useful for business writers speechwriters presenters and others more than jokes under topics can search keyword and author list sale humor processor dos based database jokes requires only ram along with thousands categorized jokes you can quickly find also includes online tutorial for writing your own jokes with proven comedy forumulas list sale history the world multimedia rom covering cave society the present includes recordings famous speeches from churchhill gandi and others list sale you interested any these programs please phone philadelphia and save the package for you reid goldsborough reidg pacs pha
misc.forsale	for sale waxworks game for sale waxworks horrorsoft accolade the same folks who brought you elvira played elvira and think that horrorsoft has finally made very playable game with waxworks the look and feel roughly the same the elvira games though the real time fighting little easier survive the first two games especially elvira jaws cerberus made very tough stay alive and hit point restoring was very difficult this not say that waxworks walk the park but quite fair that there always some weapon found that quite effective hint given the proper fighting strategy one the four wax works explored there fighting all well almost none though all four contain moderately challanging puzzles the really interesting thing about this game that really broken into four seperate rpgs one for each the four exhibits you must enter starting each one your character transported with objects use and experience level one exhibits traps you inside multi level ancient egyptian pyramid which you must escape fighting mapping and puzzle solving another exhibit traps you mine that has been taken over creeping plant vines and pods while the local humans have been transformed into plant zombies this single level maze that requires you rescue some humans kill the head plant alien and figuere out how kill the very tuff plant zombies that are always showing this perhaps the most horrifying exhibit another exhibit puts you into jack the ripper england where you appear the corpse fresh ripper victim and course the police think you are responsible you must avoid police and angry mobs unravel the mystery the ripper and meet him face face but first get disquise the last exhibit pus you graveyard where most the challenge learning stop the almost indestructible zombies over all the vga graphics and music are very effective setting creepy tone for the game was the case for the elvira games though gameplay much improved and makes for much more enjoyable game heartily recommend for rpg and horror fans all prices include shipping all games are excellent condition unless otherwise stated buyers only please all games will shipped inside box with packing insured priority usps all games include all original materials including box manual disks and registration unless otherwise noted the first responder offering asking price guarenteed get the game those just asking questions get priority until they offer buy the game lower offers may considered assuming other offers asking price are made sam bauer hewlett packard network test division smb col com colorado springs
misc.forsale	zeos daughterboard upgradeable for sale trade folks have daughter board for zeos which want upgrade send mail with you offer you are selling zeos daughterboard willing buy zeos daughterboard thanks murli murli ram murli cubix ent ohiou edu next mail ohio university murli bobcat ent ohiou edu athens
misc.forsale	metal powder steel iron just love these posts from the soviet union among the cars dinette sets video cameras etc every now and then pops for bee venom red oxide mercury cobalt tons minimum order etc don they have garage sales russia
misc.forsale	printer paper tray have hewlett packard laserjet series paper tray for sale its letter size brand new the box and never used asking bought new ballard computer for please reply jeffo spooge washington edu
misc.forsale	squaw lift tickets available for each posting for friend not have these tickets interested parties can call john for more information there are three lift tickets and they are good for anytime this season squaw valley ski resort doug fierro uts system software case tools development fierro uts amdahl com
misc.forsale	for sale toyota pickup please not respond directly this account for sale blue toyota pickup truck with white blazer topper casette cruise control great for camping trips new brakes master brake cylinder michelin tires shocks maintenance free battery clutch windshield wipers well maintained with all toyota parts all repairs done the dealers very little rust body good shape miles asking interested please contact ursula fritsch umf gene com please not respond directly this account rob mcnicholas technical computing services berkeley robm eecs berkeley edu voice fax
misc.forsale	chemicals for sale the chemicals are gone thanks for all the response omar
misc.forsale	printing article apr sarah albany edu albnyvms bitnet writes advertises his printing business dear let the first block you have just violated one the major shibboleths the usenet groups you not supposed use newsgroup plug your own commercial enterprise any kind people frequently get flamed for announcing they got new book out don know whether this official usenet rule just long standing custom and doesn make much difference from practical point view please don again and all you others who are even now taking keyboard hand flame him off the face the earth lay off didn know any better does now dorothy heydt berkeley cozzlab garnet berkeley edu disclaimer ucb and the cozzarelli lab are not responsible for opinions and fact don think they know have any
misc.forsale	catalog hard find enhancements repost andy sail stanford edu andy freeman writes article elme unix portal com jdoll shell portal com joe doll the catalog personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for class machines focus engineering and scien tific applications pcs such data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation you would like free copy reply with your postal mailing address don bother never comes cheap trick for building mailing list sell junk mail flow any indication andy sent his address months ago perhaps can get portal nuke this weasal never received catalog either that person doesn respond growing flame then can assume that yall look forward lotsa junk mail don want him nuked want him honest the junk mail has been much more interesting than the promised catalog known what was going get wouldn have hesitated wouldn surprised there were other folks who looked the and said nope but who would very interested the junk mail that results similarly there are people who wanted the advertised catalog who aren happy with the junk they got instead the folks buying the mailing lists would prefer honest and would the people reading andy
misc.forsale	attention all neo geo owners read this hello neo geo owners and non owners who couldn resist the title was wondering any you out there want trade sell games mean buying them from the stores can get kinda expensive little too much spending each game but ahh the quality now can get them for about but that still lot right now have crossed swords magician lord baseball stars fatal fury nam interested buying more titles any you have any interesting trade ideas please let know thanks tom tomcat leland stanford edu
misc.forsale	pressure meter heise model pressure meter this precision digit meter measuring psi absolute psi increments case extremely good shape and can used stand alone meter panel mounted brass fitting looks like standard back operates from vac like for make offer lot more useful lab than ersatz barometer which what been using for dave medin phone ssd networking intergraph corp internet dtmedin catbyte ingr com huntsville uucp uunet ingr catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look least around office the opinions expressed here are mine those machine
misc.forsale	cheap airline ticket wanted cheap airline ticket april tuesday from indi chicago and return about days wanted please phone mail chenmin sage purdue edu
misc.forsale	mother board for sale for sale motherboard for sale excellent condition less than one year old cache expandable ram expandable ami bios need sell upgrading asking neg contact jared martin email jaredjma mentor purdue edu
misc.forsale	shawnee delaware poconos timeshare week for sale second week january prime ski season one the largest poconos ski areas just north allentown condo sleeps depending how friendly you all are has hot tub deck easy access parking lot and shuttle slopes condo few miles from the slopes cost obro price based what paid for used also and current market richr the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
misc.forsale	wanted tablehockey games hello looking for the coleco tablehockey games that were popular the the games that seek have straight slots for the defenseman not the shaped slots the players are attatched rods operated with springs you have game games that you would willing part with please send mail message uicvm uic edu price negotiable and would also cover shipping you are out state part league that plays regular basis the cthl the chicago table hockey league and need game practice also the league itself always interested purchasing games expand itself thank you ken harris equipment expand size
misc.forsale	squaw lift tickets available for each tickets midweek are now down they will starting last week april maybe first week may the way the current conditions was there apr are great for spring skiing with excellent coverage most stuff open and lift lines andrei
misc.forsale	bmw for sale bmw the original four door sports sedan arctic blue metallic with gold alloy plus wheels rial goodyear eagle racing tires mud snow rated liter fuel injected engine stahl headers adjustable gas shocks all around koni byk speed stick wheel power disc brakes sunroof listen installed hidden speaker stereo subwoofer miles yet much better condition than most cars meticulously maintained all records oil changes faded paint top otherwise excellent exterior and interior the car has required major repair work the more than ten years have owned has never failed start broken down even the coldest weather this has been extraordinarily reliable and economical car and shows every sign staying that way yet absolute thrill drive when you take secluded twisty mountain road sell now reluctantly since just succumbed the convertible craving and bought new miata obo rich fozzard richard fozzard serendipity empowers univ colorado cires noaa broadway boulder fozzard fsl noaa gov
misc.forsale	madison summer sublet downtown furnished summer sublet may thru aug great location frances johnson across witte near nitty gritty near howard johnson near state street near south east dorms near university square near serf two bedroom your own spacious room the larger laundry available parking available bathroom kitchen large closet dual desks just pay for electricity month asking for whole summer send inquiries howard moy cae wisc edu howard howard moy
misc.forsale	moving sale for sale dining table wooden with chairs dining table scandinavian style steel desk free interested please call hemant betrabet
misc.forsale	sega genesis for sale sonic month old sega genesis barely used one controller original box with sonics and gets the whole bundle shipped you turns out they not addictive when they yours anyway mail you interested this marvel modern technology andrew boyko aboyko dixie com
misc.forsale	kawai way cheapo buy sorry etc etc gotta pay well bill eating mere passing interest comparison kawai synthesizer for you act now cash only pleeze take delivery berkeley call and leave name and number for call back and arrange this marvelous feast offer expires soon how soon soon believe act now thank you for your support wheeze
misc.forsale	sipps memory forsale sipps for sale have sipps for sale upgraded few systems memory don need these more they are sipps sipps meg total all for meg for note sipps are gernally more expensive then simms these sipps are good working condition buyer pay shipping handling interested reply minh wpi wpi edu minh pham mail minh wpi wpi edu worcester polytechnical institute
misc.forsale	sale software packages pcanywhere antivirus deltagraph hello have three software packages for sale the norton pcanywhere version for dos this software include host and remote software can control both dos and windows both standard and enhanced modes activities registration card enclosed price the norton antivirus for windows and dos version can update virus information any time also support networks registration card enclosed price deltagraph professional for windows this the best graphics presentation program have ever seen registration card enclosed reg price price thank you for your attention anthony lai
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap everyone here are some books for sale all prices are negotiable shipping fee not included signals and systems alexander poularik and samuel seely pws kent publisher old price new price probability introduction samuel goldberg dover publisher old price new price digital image processing and computer vision schalkoff wiley publisher old price new price digital image processing gonzalz and wintz addison wesley publisher old price new price sold window system user guide for reilly associate the best book dos alan simpson sams old price new price elements modern algebra holden day publisher old price new price symmetries asymmetries and the world particles lee washington publisher old price new price elementary particles and the laws physics the dirac memorial lectures cambridge publisher old price new price brief history time stephen hawking bantam books paperback old price new price robert chong department mechanical engineering the ohio state university email cychong magnus acs ohio state edu
misc.forsale	fax modem card wanted looking out for inexpensive fax modem card for you have one sell please mail gulshan garg thssgkg iitmax iit edu
misc.forsale	unix software for sale greetings here list items for the which selling dbase iii full dbase iii multiuser development runtime for microsoft basic interpreter gives megabytes ram available microsoft word full featured mouse based multiuser word processor microsoft multiplan nice multiuser spreadsheet program gss chart nice graphical program for creating business charts lpi robust compiler throw lpi debug single step alter vars electronic mail very nice office based front end mail take best offer for the whole bunch bought all these new and paid over for these excellent programs rather sell them together but don hesitate make offer for one consider possible trades interested the following hardware ethernet card with without software tape backup external expansion unit upgraded motherboard just info who can the upgrades icus hard drive upgrade kit bct terminals with the unixpc style keyboard make offer bob ames bob crl com can get unix pcs with drives and motherboards loaded with cnews smail trn elm nethack gzip hdb and couple other things for about each plus shipping let know you interested pps priam hard drives exactly same maxtor but faster are sale for thru vendor number not handy write for info this very good price for these drives the largest fastest hds available for the unix note fully use the entire you need the motherboard upgrade who does these and
misc.forsale	metal powder steel iron article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes xref nntpd cxo dec com misc invest misc forsale path nntpd cxo dec com dec com big mko dec com uvo dec com news crl dec com deccrl caen zaphod mps ohio state edu sdd com portal cup portal com mmm from mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson newsgroups misc invest misc forsale subject metal powder steel iron message cup portal com date thu apr pdt organization the portal system references acpdgohawa commed msk lines just love these posts from the soviet union among the cars dinette sets video cameras etc every now and then pops for bee venom red oxide mercury cobalt tons minimum order etc don they have garage sales russia really doesn strike very funny rather indicative what crisis their economy imagine they are desparate need markets sustain industries and people which are nolonger under central control the government jim rosenkranz rosen kranz enet dec com never try teach pig sing can done and annoys the pig
misc.forsale	soft contact lens cleaning unit heater girlfriend switched gas permeable hard lenses and longer needs one year old soft contact lens cleaning unit one those where you pop the lens case filled with solution and the lenses press the lighted timer button and let cook stains course you owned one these you understand maybe little dust the cover best cash offer equivalent worth used betamax tapes some blanks couple pre recorded movies concerts gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	forsale dynakit pas tube pre amp dynakit pas for sale pure tube pre amp using two phono stage and also two line stage one used power supply clean and out neat workmanship works fine with good sound owner manuel asking obo plus shipping contact harry interested thanx
misc.forsale	catalog hard find enhancements repost stuff deleted for example subscribe magazines abc news and xyz products give name joseph cool for the first and joe cool for the when get junk mail addressed joseph cool know where they bought name this doesn help not getting junk mail but you least know who selling your name and you ask companies not sell your name mailing lists tele marketeers they are not supposed illegal and case you haven guessed don really use joe cool company maintains mailing list which regularly rented for one time use the major software companies the method you are using seed your junk mail isn really effective bulk mailers regulary either send their databases cleaned the ncoa which you moved recently will revert back the original xxx cool and large mailings there will likely dupe you and they pick the first and use the others for future mailings btw our list currently one the hottest lists for actual buyers windows utility product the range and available through direct media per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks ted matthew caprile hey only speak for myself even won admit the opinions expressed caprile apple com here don expect employer
misc.forsale	drafting machine for sale for sale precision drafting machine bruning ogp solid older model with spring loaded counter balance clamps table without scales for right handed person make offer includes ups parcel post postage guessing that from the period well known for excellent drafting machine construction built with real metal parts not cheap modern plastic and painted the typical office grey popular that period smooth working and each the two arms measures roughly has dual clamp enable you clamp the edge corner table rick inzero rochester cci rdi northern telecom ltd uunet ccicpg cci rdi rochester rdi cci com
misc.forsale	apple iigs have basic apple iigs system that need sell everything comes with original boxes and documentation and excellent condition make offer consider anything apple iigs meg drive applecolor rgb monitor keyboard mouse mousepad dustcovers baud applemodem random other worthless stuff here list the games apps games applications battlechess system disk defender the crown system tools iigs arkanoid wordperfect bubble ghost appleworks shadowgate writer choice elite balance power draw plus marble madness copy plus zany golf proterm communications software chessmaster interested contact sunshine cco caltech edu
misc.forsale	forsale used guitar amp two years old crate guitar amplifier model handles upto watts dual input two channels reverb three band distortion asking send mail thssjxy iitmax acc iit edu you are interested prices maybe negotiable
misc.forsale	cassettes for sale update there again still have few tapes left before they are each postage paid multiple orders appreciated but not necessary package deals welcome thanks chris bray lewis huey sports hooters nervous night poison look what the cat dragged hall oates big bam boom ratt out the cellar quiet riot condition critical seger bob like rock outfield play deep plant robert shaken stirred journey raised radio duran duran duran duran duran duran arena duran duran rio
misc.forsale	elvis autograph for sale elvis prestly autograph autogaph one two the othere being elvis friend red west and were obtained the seller the spring jacksonville fla the afternoon following the incident when elvis collapsed during concert the gaterbowl jacksonville request offers ellen san jose
misc.forsale	mram kcache mhd vesa local bus motherboard ram cache floppy hard drive ide controller local bus svga video card svga monitor dpi mini tower key keyboard david tsao cstsao sam olemiss edu benjamin chen
misc.forsale	marvel valiant image etc for sale updated april title price alpha flight wolverine appears double size jim lee first work marvel aliens app aliens comics prnt may amazing spider man vulture intro new green goblin green goblin appears green goblin appears appearance hobgoblin hobgoblin appears peter david script human torch origin spiderman hobgoblin hobgoblin appears punisher hobgoblin appear spiderslayer appears kraven appears kraven appears todd mcfarlane hobgoblin green goblin venom appears todd mcfarlane art todd mcfarlane art silver sable paladin america sabretooth appears red skull captain america hulk appears last mcfarlane punisher appears punisher appears hobgoblin appears intro cletus kassady carnage venom appears venom appears pages punisher darkbawk appear punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears app spider man holo annual annual solo venom story annual new warriors venom anne rice vampire companion anne rice vampire lestat archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers appearance factor alpha flight appears pages new team alpha flight appears new team annual annual annual batman legends the dark knight blue cover batman shadow the bat still polybag batman versus predator prestige edition predator prestige edition batman batman year one trade paperback printing bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil origin bullseye ghost rider death head early app frank miller art begins deathstalker appears frank miller art elektra appearance bullseye bullseye kingpin appear punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art punnisher appears frank miller art wolverine appears darkhawk spider man and hobgoblin appear dark horse presents app concrete printing concrete appears annual aliens appear dazzler men appear beast appears deathlok deathstroke the terminator printing defenders intro new defenders double size factor appears demon lobo appears lobo appears lobo appears eternal warrior miller cover fantastic four hulk the thing simonson art begins simonson art simonsom art simonson art simonson art art adams cover art wolverine ghost rider wolverine appear ghost rider wolverine appear pages simonson art simonson art simonson art fantastic four new warriors page anniversary issue annual flash superman flash race ghost rider spider man hobgoblin cover and story spider man hobgoblin cover and story ghost rider and cable sam keith cover ghost rider and captain america fear guardians the galaxy prism foil cover harbinger appearance corps corps havok and wolvreine meltdown incredible hulk byrne art begins app grey hulk since mcfarlane issue grey hulk series begins dale keown art hulk green hulk appears keown art keown art keown art grey green hulk all new hulk prnt keown keown keown keown keown keown keown keown keown keown green foil stamped cover keown infinity gauntlet perez painted cover thanos thanos thanos john byrne next men justice league america justice league quarterly justice society america april kamandi origin kamandi kirby art kirby art kirby art kirby art last generation magnus robot fighter new direction logo begins marc spector moon knight ghost rider appears marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer wolverine master kungfu wolverine master kungfu wolverine master kungfu wolverine daredevil wolverine hulk wolverine submariner wolverine man thing man thing ant man man thing colossus black panther shanna black panther nomad ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther rob liefeld art cyclops ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther ron lim art black panther nth man havok blk panther black panther havok hulk black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok black panther havok erik larsen excalibur wolverine rob liefeld wolverine rob liefeld wolverine rob liefeld silver sable wolverine hulk jackson guice deathlok poison thor scarlet witch mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider mark texiera ghost rider smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon dracula smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon smith weapon keith art and jae lee keith wolverine beast ghost rider cable wolverine ghost rider wolverine ghost rider maxx sam keith metropol ted mckeever mighty mouse moon knight nam frank castle punisher new mutants intro new warlock magus rob liefeld todd mcfarlane cover mcfarlane cover app cable cameo rob liefeld cable rob liefeld cable rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld sabretooth appears rob liefeld cover rob liefeld wolverine cable rob liefeld wolverine cable rob liefeld tinction agenda rob liefeld wolverine cable cover app deadpool gideon domino app feral force app force annual evolutionary war annual liefeld art new mutants annual annual app force summer special art adams art olympians mcfarlane omega men appearance lobo full lobo story annual power man iron fist appearance sabretooth appearance sabretooth power pack wolverine and sabretooth appear predator big game contains trading cards punisher wilce portacio punisher and captain america blood and glory punisher starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art starlin script wrightson art punisher war journal jim lee art ghost rider appears ghost rider appears punisher war zone die cut cover ragman pat broderick origin ragman rocketeer special edition dave stevens art shadowman simpsons comics and stories polybagged special solar man the atom spectacular spider man punisher appears answer appears cloak and dagger appear cloak and dagger appear spot appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears octopus appears hobgoblin appears kraven appears kraven appears punisher appears punisher appears punisher appears app new hobgoblin origin lobo bros punisher spider man gets new powers cosmic spider man appears hologram hobgoblin annual mcfarlane story spider man gold edition direct sale regular edition green unbagged lizard calypso appear mcfarlane hobgoblin ghost rider appear hobgoblin ghost rider appear black costume returns black costume morbius appear mcfarlane liefeld art force appears sinister six hulk appear hulk deathlok appear origin retold hologram cover star trek the next generation feb mini star trek the next generation oct comics strange adventures dozens but varying high grades ask swamp thing john constantine appears annual tales the teen titans deathstroke app orogin terminator dark horse terminator secondary objectives terminator judgement day thor mutant massacre factor sabretooth app eric masterson becomes new thor warlock and the infinity watch starlin scripts gamora thanos web spider man thunder appears magma appears hobgoblin wolverine appear origin rose hobgoblin appears hobgoblin appears green goblin super hero green goblin super hero rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story rose hobgoblin story hologram cover polybagged annual werewolf night appearance moon knight moon knight appears wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth sabretooth claims wolverine dad sabretooth proven not his dad sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return animal man annual factor sabretooth appears sabretooth appears sabretooth appears tinction agenda jim lee cover whilce portacio art begins whilce portacio art last old team issue annual new warriors force appear force signed liefeld bagged force card signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card signed liefeld bagged deadpool card signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon bagged cable card men mutant massacre intro marauders mutant massacre marauders appear wolverine battles sabretooth wolverine battles sabretooth art adams cover fall the mutants inferno rob liefeld art all new men begin jim lee art series begins jim lee art last jim lee art new men team printing manowar all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help some titles have posted here don list every issue have that title tried save space geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	color san diego color san diego mesa college area emerson high tech square screen best price you features timer sleep feature for auto shut off can find for fully cable ready all coaxial video audio jacks inch color mts multichannel sound jack for processing stereo bilingual channels firm key remote includes review recall sleep features tel please reply lcornel eis calstate edu for fastest response louis louis cornelio genie cornelio the better the technology louis netlink cts com the less efficient the human use
misc.forsale	auction marvel valiant image dark horse etc auctioning off the following comics these minimum bids are set below what would normally sell them for make offer and will accept the highest bid after the auction has been completed title minimum current alpha flight jim lee first work marvel aliens app aliens comics prnt may amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers appearance factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents app concrete printing corps incredible hulk app grey hulk since incredible hulk mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk dale keown art hulk incredible hulk all new hulk prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover new mutants mcfarlane cover app cable cameo new mutants app force new mutants annual liefeld art new mutants omega men appearance lobo omega men full lobo story power man iron fist appearance sabretooth appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special spectacular spider man app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb mini star trek the next generation oct comics web spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims wolverine dad wolverine sabretooth proven not his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return animal man force signed liefeld bagged force card force signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card force signed liefeld bagged deadpool card force signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help some titles have posted here don list every issue have that title tried save space geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	cobra gtl ssb for sale well have forsale again the last deal didn work out and lowered the price again cobra gtl single side band mike best offer dave cal poly life liberty and the slo pursuit land speed records autobahn commuters
misc.forsale	keyboards drives radios for sale hello have these items for sale terms are ups cod prepayment money order keyboards for ibm compatibles mitsumi floppy disk drive sony srf digital stereo walkman the drive cost the keyboards were each and the sony radio cost will sell for the best offers thank you buchanan fear the goverment that fears your guns without the amendment cannot guarantee freedoms cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	procalc modules for sale texas instruments procalc new box manuals also texas instruments statistics library module for procalc new box manual and texas instruments chemical engineering module for procalc new box manual all for shipping contact geary morton ginkgo uncecs edu phones
misc.forsale	chemlab eyeofthebeholder cluebook ethernettransceiver nintendocontrol have the following items for sale the highest bid for each arrive email box edt wednesday april gets the item skillcraft senior chemlab set safe for ages and used little bottles different chemicals plastic balance alcohol lamp test tube litmus paper manual with over experiments shipping will added your bid eye the beholder fun game for the ibm original box with original media and manual shipping will added your bid clue book for eye the beholder solve your dilemmas hurry and find all the loot shipping will added your bid free shipping this item you bid highest this and item ethernet transceiver with lanview aui ohm coaxial works fine has nifty blinking leds for send receive collision power etc built includes one ohm terminator shipping will added your bid super nintendo super controller auto repeated fire hands free continuous fire slow motion accomplished automatically pausing unpausing add one controller console allow two players shipping will added your bid sure include shipping address with all bids sure include email address with all bids send bids battle utk edu david battle you will informed email your bid the highest edt wednesday april items will shipped postal service first class cod thursday morning money order for your bid plus the indicated shipping amount will needed receive the item please keep this fact mind when bidding david battle utk edu
misc.forsale	airline ticket washington champaign for sale selling one way ticket from washington champaign the home the university illinois willing offer good price you are interested please email eshneken uiuc edu thanks
misc.forsale	big block dodge carburetor napa remanufactured large barrel carburetor for big block dodge part new box manifold gasket retail napa price your price shipping contact geary morton ginkgo uncecs edu phones
misc.forsale	infinity speakers for sale brand new have pair car speakers for sale they are brand new still box and plastic wrap got them highland going out business sale just yesterday however they won fit car rear deck because not the right size trying sale them here infinity three way freq resp power capacity watts per channel sensitivity spl impedance ohms mouting depth list price stereo store tax mail order catalog price price obo shipping please mail fang ecn purdue edu call michael wen cheng fang
misc.forsale	monitor tracy your monitor its way mike damico
misc.forsale	fax modem for sale slightly used less than two months old suprafaxmodem for sale comes with latest rom communication software fax software original manuals and the original registration card here are some specs model supfaxv bis description suprafaxmodem bis type internal data speed bps data upto bps with data compression protocols bell ccit bis bis bis mnp mnp fax bps send receive fax class commnads group iii compatible transmission ter other non volatile memory autoanswer autodial tone pulse extended commands and result codes includes diagnostics phone jacks subscriptions free online services year warranty asking neg interested please mail thanks
misc.forsale	intel cpu chip for upgraded friend and have the chip for sale intel cpu chip first shipping will get the chip you can make the offer you don like the price thanks
misc.forsale	brand new software packages for sale looking for people buy brand new software packages including microsoft windows harvard graphics pagemaker paradox lotus etc off list price mail immediately ergo wam umd edu with name phone email address and software names
misc.forsale	top the line jvc portable disc player for sale have used jvc top the line portable player for three months now have mostly used car long trips has less than hours use the unit one the best that have seen and listened but going part with install disc changer car features include rechargeable nicad batteries wireless remote control adaptor headphones carrying belt and case digital band graphic with spectrum analyzer presets user programmable rca connections and cord jvc compulink capability cord included programmable from remote intro random repeat playback will include discwasher power converter convert automobile the that the unit requires had buy this one because was the only one that fits jvc makes unique connection that cannot found radio shack etc paid for the disc player and another for the power converter will sell the disc player alone for both items for send replies harrij rpi edu jon
misc.forsale	dayna etherprint base new cheap posting for friend contact directly leave mail and can forward brand spanking new still original package never opened dayna etherprint connector support base compliant networks connect localtalk compatible printers directly ethernet networks will work with any localtalk compatible network printer such laserwriter imagewriter ibm personal page printer hewlett packard deskwriter hewlett packard laserjet printer family qume printers can daisy chain maximum localtalk devices such workstations modems printers single etherprint device support appletalk phase and phase protocols shipping cheap new without base mac world contact kam poon after est
misc.forsale	mac monitor wanted wanted color monitor suitable for use macintosh centris planning purchasing one these machines soon and don want have pay full price for new monitor when used one will just well you have one you like part with please email with the specs and price thanks roger rsjoyce eos ncsu edu
misc.forsale	forsale new with software bought calculator month ago used once but put back the box includes manual and including about high density disks packed with dozens not hundreds games and programs all you need buy the cable for around bucks you could use the software shipping included best offer thanx
misc.forsale	wanted memphis sublet non smoking normal law student needs furnished place live memphis this summer working firm downtown and will have pass the bar character examination you don have worry about your stuff being broken stolen call chris leave mail
misc.forsale	for sale laptop ram for sale compudyne sxl laptop meg meg ram vga monochrome grey scale math coprocessor asking best offer must sell soon not reply this email address call johnny email phd gsbacd uchicago edu darin fox are you master your univ ill graduate school domain library and information science seinfeld
misc.forsale	forsale men without hats folk the part iii vinyl grinning evil death mute bigwpi wpi edu wrote men without hats folk the part iii vinyl anyone out there who willing part with their copy men without hats pop goes the world album vinyl perhaps please contact wish purchase andrew tigress equinox gen late again tea and lemmings please
misc.forsale	terminal forsale 
misc.forsale	terminal for sale have and compatible terminal with external hyess modem amber screens keyboard cable make offer
misc.forsale	gre gre economics test books for sale gre test aids for sale cliffs gre preparation guide full length practive tests answers and explanations also includes test taking strategies the same people who cliffs notes gre economics test the research and education association revised edition includes full length exams with detailed explanations and solutions each question pages practicing take the gre economics test ets includes official full length gre economics test from and aswers included but explanations practicing take the gre general test ets includes three official gre general tests from answers but explanations and one additional gre general test complete with explanations answers shipping extra buy everything for and cover the shipping keith frederick happiness our moral purpose you see manchu kill him scalawag carson washington edu reason our only absolute not number free man cis uwid cornell here come
misc.forsale	speakers for sale for sale bose subwoofer month old advent minis months old email offers craigb rpi edu
misc.forsale	math copro sale trade looking for math coprocessor for mhz should also have for sale trade tnx jim streader the cutting edge software evolution pics online multiuser system hst massive file collection over files online newsgroups
misc.forsale	software sale have the following software forsale microsoft dos this good buy for those who don need all the utils dos accolade hardball good arcade baseball game graphics sound are pretty good has the ability make schedules and edit player stats accolade the third courier adventure spy type game ega earl weaver good arcade strategy type baseball game you have ability play for league play have mlb stats for and ega stormovik soviet attack fighter good fighter simulation various missions and levels play sierra thexder firehawk arcade shoot type game nice music and sound effects virgen scrabble computer version the popular board game willing negotiate the prices prices not include shipping shipping costs will split drop line roberto alvarez ndsuvm programmer analyst nodak edu university north dakota adrxa undjes
misc.forsale	jazz sale trade have unopened called bird the original recordings charlie parker has among others miles davis dizzy gillespie red rodney thelonious monk and lester young would willing sell the highest bidder else trade for another jazz that would interested joe
misc.forsale	wholesale sets are representing some chinese manufacturers who want wholesale their products latin american countries are looking for brokers agents who can help products include both color and black white tvs from interested please mail fax usa for more information inquiries good commission
misc.forsale	ticket san francisco philadelphia one way ticket return leg roundtrip ticket for female traveler san francisco louis philadelphia may friday leaves sfo arrives phila best offer return mail call home office
misc.forsale	photogrammetric camera hello while refurbishing our observatory came across the above mentioned camera was manufactured the instrument corporation florida now for questions does anyone have any knowledge this equipement does anyone know the company phone numbers are there any others out there need some parts any responces are greatly appreciated take care jamie adx adelphi edu
misc.forsale	cellular phone portable for sale article cup portal com mmm cup portal com mark robert thorson writes offer shipment seller expense payment personal check sent mail within hours after receiving goods reserve the right return the goods expense find them defective otherwise unacceptable when receive them either the merchandise the check would mailed within hours mark thorson hope you realize that for cellular phone you need subscribe cellular carrier and usually takes least one working day before the service available you only then you can find out whether the phone working tin
misc.forsale	intel fax modem for sale have intel satisfaxtion modem internal for sale runs baud data mode and baud class fax modem transmits baud and receives baud ter the modem has all original manuals and comes with software icluding intel satisfaxtion and faxability well crosstalk communicator have used this modem less than hour came with computer and already had another one would like ask for this modem but will entertain all serious offers please email jmu acpub duke edu thanks
misc.forsale	motherboard case mouse hello have motherboard and case for sale package both them came from compuadd computer bought last august and presently upgrading here are the specs motherboard cyrix mhz microprocessor chips and technology chipset scatsx slslc simm banks for maximum megs ram built floppy and hard drive controllers built ports parallel serial and pin built paradise svga controller with meg ram windows drivers inc can colors based the western digital chip math processor slot bit expansion slots and bit expansion slots case low profile desktop very nice grey color watt power supply room for floppies plus mouse button microsoft compatible grey color matches case all original manuals and documentation video drivers etc are included you are probably wondering why must sell the case with the motherboard simply because the case custom made for this particular board and you would hard pressed fit another however the case and this motherboard were made together and fit perfectly you can see since this board includes drive controllers and video controller you can save some money buying this unit and not where you would need get cards video card and drive controllers its just lot more convenient the whole would like ask about for this whole package think this fair price given the facts that includes video card and drive controllers ports all you need add drives monitor ram and keyboard also keep mind that isn generic board but from compuadd also will entertain all serious offers please email jmu acpub duke edu thanks
misc.forsale	hds and other computer parts for sale wanted for sale fujitsu meg scsi drive maxtor meg esdi drive maxtor meg esdi drive toshiba meg ide drive case motherboard dtc bit mfm controler all items are used full working condition and have warranty for one week unless otherwise specified all prices are negotiable shipping not included wanted developers kit for svga moniters two them carl merritt bromgrev rahul net
misc.forsale	lots neat ibm clone stuff for sale complete mhz system for sale svga card color tatung vga monitor floppies and watt power supply meg ram installed meg ide hard drive best offer bits and pieces ide controller card internal baud modem mhz cpu megs simm memory standard vga card panasonic kxp wide carriage pin printer brand new condition comes with plenty ribbons parallel and serial ports nice crisp output all items are beautiful condition all fully functional willing provide net references needed best offers all items snag thanks for your time ciaran ciaran foley cfoley bonnie uci ics edu office
misc.forsale	new aircraft subject new aircraft for leasing set spare parts category offers leasing headline new aircraft director agabalaevich btw are these guys out their minds was our propaganda effective that they believe some netters could actually buy such stuff and land their driveway too much soda pop too quick look should most airliner hand books sgt morton environmental resource sciences hastings and prince edward regiment trent university peterborough ontario canada there are few things wrong with the potential sale this aircraft there starting glut new aircraft the market airlines are taking delivery then mothballing their new planes unless the fuel efficiency better than the airbus boeing this plane not economically feasible for the major players airlines unless the price real cheap and you have owner that doesn care about fuel economy saudi family maybe sales ought pretty glim ummm surprised you couldn find gov aid program subsidize and underwrite the lease that could make quite attractive arrangement bizarre yes impossible not really life like analogy yeah that the ticket
misc.forsale	forsale norman rockwell okay okay norman himself isn actually for sale but have two saturday even post both which have norman rockwell illustrations the front cover october with candidate kennedy campaign has obviously norman rockwell kennedy the cover november with candidate nixon campaign and here have nixon not crook these are both very good condition let know you interested and what tune todd janson group moscow idaho
misc.forsale	want your chips the market for couple intel chips please let know you have one more for sale interested both and models but they must intel email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	final public dragon magazine update last chance for public bids this the final public update dragon magazine auction there are new bids then the current bids stand like that gonna happen after this any updates will mail only the entire auction will end soon the bids stop coming you want get this sure bid now all bids must made least cent increments buyer will pay shipping unless you have any particular fancy will mail class special with lots padding all dragons are bagged the condition them vary quite bit come with own condition system some dragons may missing items like the inserts you have any questions feel free ask condition ratings usually this just evaluation the cover most the material inside great shape excellent you find them the store very good still great condition but can tell been boughten good down the line very fair fair indicates lots use but still decent poor indicates the material inside may damaged usually scissors the condition indicates that something from the magazine missing usually the insert post another public update sometime this weekend which will the final public posting after which the auction will mail until the bidding stops again you have any questions ask away arrow fair top secret module missing bard tunes real maps good forest doom module detached but included inner planes ykchev good combat computer missing dragons good monsters aquatic module detached but included language lesson geoffrey good top secret module detached but included magic resistance mayla fair high level module detached but included poison material spell components uccxkvb very fair baton races game insert missing spell research good babba yagga hut module detached but included unarmed combat geoffrey fair cover missing twofold talisman module squidly good twofold talisman module clerics squidly good top secret module wildernes geoffrey good elefant hunt insert missing falling damage marvel phile geoffrey good creature catalog missing shields sci good ranger changes creature catalog detached but included geoffrey fair cover missing into the forgotten realms module detached but included ykcheu fair anniversary dragons mutant manual uccxkvb poor cover missing treasure trove some pictures cut out thedm good poster missing city beyond the gate module detached but included raised dragon texture cover geoffrey fair cover missing creature catalog iii detached but included geoffrey fair cover missing valley earth mother middle level module detached but included geoffrey fair cover loosly attached unearth arcana update missing future centaur papers geoffrey fair unearth arcana update missing geoffrey fair marvel module thieves cover detached but included geoffrey fair module invisibility cover back cover detached but included uccxkvb fair cover variations paladins more skills rangers ykcheu good variations paladins more skills for rangers arrow fair cover missing dragons glory supplement questionaire geoffrey good mutant manual environmental effects cover taped reinforced thedm very good mutant manual environmental effects ykcheu good customizing classes agent poster geoffrey very fair customizing classes agent poster missing geoffrey very good house the frozen lands module anniv squidly very good house the frozen lands module anniv geoffrey good murder mystery module ykcheu very good ultimate article index mesozoic monsters mayla very fair elven cavalier remorhaz witch npc class ykcheu good theives harpies snakes squidly good ship cardboard insert wild animals who uccxkvb good dice odds creative campaigns sage advice bazaar geoffrey good tournaments competitions nibar keep game uccxkvb april fool issue uccxkvb excellent oriental adventures cardboard castle insert geoffrey excellent aniversary african beasts druids uccxkvb very good magic and wizardry thedm very good magic and wizardry arrow excellent aerial adventures edition aire uccxkvb excellent aerial adventures edition aire geoffrey very good clay rama chivalry quasi elementals geoffrey clay rama chivalry quasi elementals uccxkvb undead uccxkvb very good fighters fvpmantel good king table insert game fvpmantel excellent demi humans uccxkvb the arcane arts tfpayn excellent deepearth arrow deepearth uccxkvb very good orcwars board game missing arrow very good berserkers spies roman gods marvel index geoffrey very good berserkers spies roman gods marvel index fvpmantel anniversary dragons tbh very good archers space sage advice uccxkvb very good archers space sage advice tbh very good cities urban adventures tbh excellent wilderness arrow very good horror haloween uccxkvb very good pages from the mages uccxkvb excellent clerics healers tbh good humanoids tbh very good edition preview uccxkvb very good issue uccxkvb very good poster missing castles thedm very good poster missing anninversary dragons tbh excellent magus board game magic tbh excellent fighting deck many things insert excellent particular feature excellent horror halloween issue excellent oriental adventures eastern good underdark poster missing inside slight crumple cover only noticable under inspection very good gods good poster dragonlance story war excellent faeries dungeon module very good buck rogers thedm very good anniversary dragons uccxkvb excellent spelljammer poster missing kohlmaas good urban adventures trading card insert missing uccxkvb very good issue good haloween poster missing thedm excellent monsterous compendum insert magic very good oriental adventures sea undersea excellent sci other games dino wars insert missing excellent nature wilderness uccxkvb very good slight crease back cover misc items featured thedm good slight crease cover dragon kings game insert dragons anniversary issue uccxkvb excellent missing poster trading cards argh cfrye excellent underdark hachiman excellent dark sun intravai excellent horror intravai excellent world building campaign help excellent elves giant poster inside very good calender poster help gunpowder too intravai excellent fighters the fighter class excellent gencon form magic items featured excellent calendar poster mages sorcerors excellent anniversary issue dragons excellent non player character enhancement excellent dark sun campaign monsters dark sun geoffrey excellent haloween horror excellent wilderness outdoors you notice any errors please let know other than slight name misspellings close your name that you
misc.forsale	boss guitar pedal for sale one boss turbo overdrive pedal for guitar bass keyboards best offer thanks respond call harry
misc.forsale	dbase for sale price dropped dbase ver disks manuals still shrinkwrapped and all registration materials present asking
misc.forsale	stuff forsale have the following items for sale buyer pays the shipping costs hardware new and unused unless marked otherwise all software includes original disks and manuals reasonable offers refused send offers questions cpc cwru edu hardware hercules graphics card mono graphics and printer ports hercules color card color graphics and printer ports teac floppy drive doesn work sold for reapir parts ibm async card serial card for machines comes with support software kraft joystick works with compatibles and apple series not mac floppy disks over bulk grade disks floppy disk storage boxes each holds disks one has lock software microsoft macro assembler and update large manual and tutorial included sideways rotates wide spreadsheets degrees print page games wolfpack wwii submarine simultaion space station oblivion arcade style game similar spectre demon stalkers dungeon game like gauntlet zork moonmist ballyhoo infocom adventure mystery games jack nicklaus unlimited golf and course design excellent golf game war middle earth similar games based tolkien the hobbit sargon excellent chess game play against someone against computer silent service submarine simulation charles cox computer engineering case western reserve university cpc cwru edu
misc.forsale	for for sale with vga color monitor dual floppy vga card with board joystick mouse ram hard drive for only respond quickly orion auld are only fabulous you not part the solution beasts after all you part the precipitate john ashberry
misc.forsale	joe venuti record wanted anyone has joe venuti record fiddle fire and would like sell please contact richard brooks cerrito internet rbrooks eis calstate edu compuserve internet compuserve com
misc.forsale	honda accord honda accord for sale miles all highway miles excellent condition white model loaded best offer call tom
misc.forsale	cellular phone portable for sale hope you realize that for cellular phone you need subscribe cellular carrier and usually takes least one working day before the service available you only then you can find out whether the phone working tin not true dial and listen the recording you get then your phone was recognized the network you wouldn able dial real number yet course mark bramwell pzr located sunny london ontario internet mark ardsley business uwo address packet pzr gyq uwo phone
misc.forsale	texas star linear amplifier tornado linear looking for amateur radio operator that needs variable power linear amplifier for mhz looks and works like new runs off for mobile use input watts output watts watts pep ssb need out that too much also have tornado that takes and out for reply with your callsign address and phone number for verification license prices not include shipping packaging darrek kay kayd prism orst edu rvd
misc.forsale	trade modem for your trade your old for new modem modem comes with coupond good for travel from europe bis modem modem features mnp compression error correction bis compression error correction ccitt bis compatible bps ccitt compatible bps ccitt bis compatible bps command set compatible compatible with ibm and compatibles bundled with communications software bus interface two connectors phone and line mail danj holonet net
misc.forsale	tos and movie videotapes beta for sale trade repost nyamane nyx edu norm yamane writes have the following videos for sale all have been viewed once and are good condition star trek tos collector edition all episodes tapes asking for the lot got episodes left beta for sale each neg for trade for for movie beta used package deal for whatever you care propose trade all for set good stereo headphones sony apple iwii sheet feeder good used cassette stereo walkman hotel coupon for free stays fob new york city guests coming the remaining collection follows charlie dagger the mind miri shore leave the alternative factor operation annihilate who mourns for adonais numbers indicate episode numbering the tape boxes for those who are keeping track what episodes they missing that manner rsvp for summaries necessary the tapes are all excellent condition the original packaging all have been played least once but most have been played only once and none have been played more than twice running time min unedited uncut store bought originals unlike those syndication all have incredible beta hifi sound also have the following and horror movies beta well negotiable trade for swap for movie beta used the bride sting jennifer beales buck rogers conquers the universe buster crabbe constance moore rsvp for larger beta movies music trade list find misc forsale gld for those you who may wonder beta alive pro hobbyist format there life beyond the corner video store souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	nec multisync plus for mac nec multisync plus model vma shipping price frim not send emai your offer less than asking thank you yuesea
misc.forsale	trade modem for your email your replies danj holonet net
misc.forsale	new computer books for sale have several computer related books for sale they are all new unused and hence excellent condition the subjects include programming languages lisp prolog operating systems unix dos windows windows lan and expert systems you are interested pls contact parikhma ucunix san edu thanks parikh
misc.forsale	wanted scanjet and adf need some used scanners limiting selection models with document feeders think this means the scanjet plus and the scanjet iic you have one these and want sell please tell kyler need only one with mac interface the others are for ibm compatibles
misc.forsale	adlib sound board for sale have adlib sound board for sale includes the original disks and throw windows wav sound file driver for those you that are using your speaker for games this will much welcomed board for your includes shipping your home office email bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet
misc.forsale	laserdisks forsale the following laserdisks are used but like new condition category title price horror rabid grannies blood spattered tale two little old ladies who open surprise package from hell clv side cav min horror forbidden world subject half human and one the researchers the father roger corman prod clv min horror horror planet alien creature has been waiting for million years breed and its time has come clv min horror witchtrap and the upstairs shower have the sexy ginger kowowski and this where all the chillingly frightful fun comes head clv min murder bikini island swimwear illustrated needs cover girl and the competition fierce very fierce clv min comedy hysterical blend timeless farce contemporary satire nonsensical sight gags and dead people singing and dancing hudson brothers clv min comedy hollywood hot tubs valley girl crystal back another superheated frolic through those hollywood hot tubs clv min comedy beverly hills brats scooter trouble now his kidnappers don take credit cards martin sheen clv min comedy transylvania the good citizens transylvania invite you this the most frighteningly funny event the year begley jeff goldblum clv min comedy meet the hollowheads makes the married with children gang look sane just say butt polish clv min comedy don tell mom the babysitter dead rules curfews nagging pulse home alone times christina applegate clv min animated popeye sea hilarious cartoon adventures the high seas clv min color musical babes toyland disney make the classic with annette tommy sands ray bolger and wynn clv min action american angels baptism blood meet the first ladies wrestling clv min making runaway train pickup all the behind the scenes action displayed for your pleasure jon voigt ann margret cav min drama posed for playboy when fantasy meets reality lynda carter clv min shipping costs per disk disk for disks more will added the total off orders more titles cods checks accepted advance payment larry mcelhiney mack mchome santa cruz
misc.forsale	wargames magazines forsale discounts please take off each item over off each item over here the list magazines including asking price strategy tactics magazine all include unpunched games new mailed with games and all inclusions issue title asking oil war american intervention the persian gulf berlin the enemy the gates tito partisan army yugoslavia kaiser battle german offensive march operation grenade rhineland feb mar sicily the race messina jul aug the battle monmouth colonies take offensive end era new mailed with games and all inclusions envelope issue title asking the battle abensberg magazine only kanev russian paratroops manchu the taiping rebellion north german plain modern germany the tigers are burning camp the ukraine nicararagua pegasus bridge the beginning day campaigns the valley fortress stalingrad russian winter offensive the far seas german cruiser operations wwii beirut arab stalingrad rush for glory war with mexico the general magazine many other articles included each issue issue title asking vol crescendo doom fortress europa circus maximus stalingra bismark squad leader clinic campaign magazine many other articles included each issue issue title asking crescendo doom cross iron counterstroke inchon squad leader variant gdw battle for leyte gulf all magazine prices include postage all issues are new like new condition games and books yaquinto publications inc attack the mutants introductory game unpunched new the complete book wargames out print author jon freeman part introduction pages including kassala introductory wargame complete information over wargames hardcover pages large format shipping extra books and games prefer money orders for payment allow personal checks clear before shipping larry larry mcelhiney avenue santa cruz
misc.forsale	software and hardware for sale have the following items for sale animation works software for macintosh gold disk this brand new shrink wrapped copy microsoft excel for windows ver opened but includes everything including registration card video fastwrite vga card video memory resolution everex internal modem video card and the modem are used items you are interested make reasonable offer wish ship these ups cod please email karu nevada edu thank you karu karu nevada edu
misc.forsale	need apartment room boston will boston cambridge specifically working this summer and need place stay you have room sublease anything the sort would appreciate mail year old white male and very flexible can adapt smoking non smoking environment access the would nice though will have car thus need parking space would need this from late may early june until aproximately end july any responses welcome mike mbeck vtssi edu
misc.forsale	computer audio video furniture needed unless otherwise noted mainly interested used items you have any the following for sale please contact email mbeck vtssi edu phone usmail michael beck progress street blacksburg virginia please give much info possible brand age condition etc wanted computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind used memory for model new used macintosh computer mhz chip new used colorado tape drive megabyte preferr tapes used key keyboard high density disk drive printer oms laser deskjet series printer pin deskjet high density disk drive external adaptec scsi bit controller used piggy back memory expansion for intel inboard ide hard drive monitor resolution dot pitch better digital non computer equip drum set mult amps for band bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts more dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due shipping constraints
misc.forsale	videocamera amiga thinkjet for sale you are interested any the following please contact email mbeck vtssi edu phone usmail michael beck progress street blacksburg virginia for sale panasonic ccd omnimovie camcorder vhs high speed shutter flying erase head years old but only used very lightly date time stamp counter memory rec review fade back light auto manual focus built microphone jack for external microphone comes with sturdy aluminum hardplastic carrying case long wide high shoulder strap power adaptor battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf vhf cable adaptor audio video cables and adaptor aproximate dimensions measured around outmost features long wide high handle asking price best offer far but looking for more new price amiga mhz unix compatible machine meg hard drive meg ram monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo hewlett packard thinkjet printer interface like new original box asking price obo sold portable cellular phone model asking price sold for listed new sold compaq lte laptop contact for details best offer far sold for
misc.forsale	wanted cheap used gameboy games the title says all you have some cheap used gameboy player more games please email all offers rohit
misc.forsale	technical books for sale hello have the following for sale most the books are perfect condition interested please mail chungy rpi edu through the telescope hard cover surface physics soft cover the physics structurally disordered matter introduction soft cover subatomic physics hard cover first general relativity hard cover non equilibrium thermodynamics soft cover advances atomic and molecular physics vol hard cover advances atomic and molecular physics vol hard cover molecular beams hard cover molecular beams and reaction kinetics hard cover perturbation methods applied mathematics hard cover elementary differential equations and boundary value problems hard cover vector mechanics for engineers statics and dynamics hard cover free electron lasers hard cover physical mechanics hard cover
misc.forsale	electronics curtis mathes vhs vcr remote included and works with universal remotes heads works great but replaced with stereo vcr paid years ago will sell for delivered obo radio shack stereo amp inputs tone and left and right volume speakers not included compact unit for plus shipping great for amiga stereo output soundblaster output you are interested either the above mail keith radley gibbs oit unc edu call did have these sold but both deals fell thru you are still interested either email call major computer science eith radley minor english radley gibbs oit unc edu computer amiga university north carolina
misc.forsale	misc stuff for sale misc items for sale mount plate sony model cpm mounting plate for sony portable players for portable plugs into car lighter snaps onto the bottom any sony player portable player perfect condition will also throw cassette adapter condition paid asking car speakers sherwood two way car speakers car for months inch excellent condition paid asking inch factory speakers from toyota excellent condition asking nintendo nintendo game boy light boy tetris super mario land gameboy nfl football castlevania adventure hyper lode runner years games old all working condition asking accessories whole internet the whole internet user guide and catalog krol book guide using the internet where fing information and resources paid asking microsoft never used came with computer asking visual basic microsoft came with computer never used asking word for windows thanks jonathan fields fields cis ohio state edu
misc.forsale	roms sale new update looking find some people interested getting some rom below list with their prices you are interested any these send some mail and can guarantee this price you are not local their will shipping cost and cod cost you prefer shipped that way marcus updated prices from last post american business phonebook dos animals dos animals mpc audoban birds dos audoban mammals dos barney bear goes school dos bible library dos bibles and religion dos book lists dos britannicas family choice dos britamrica select dos business economics dos business backgrounds dos business master dos carmen san diego where mpc play launch dos rom software jukebox dos cia vorld taur dos chess master mpc dos classic collection dos clipert goliath dos colossal cookbook dos delorme atlas usa win desert storm mpc deathstar arcade battles dos dictionaries language dos education master dos electronic home library dos family doctor dos family encyclopedia comptons dos family encyclopedia comptons mpc game master dos game pack dos golden immortal dos great cities the world dos greet cities the world mpc great cities the world dos great cities the world mpc groliers encyclopedia dos groliers encyclopedia mpc guiness disc dos ham radio dos information usa dos islands designs dos jets props dos jones fast lane dos mps kgb cia world fact book dos kings quest dos mpc library the future dos loom dos mpc wizard mpc macmillan kids dictionary mpc magazine rack dos majestic places dos mavis beacon teaches typing mpc mixed mother goose dos mpc money money money dos monkey island dos oak stand dos our solar system dos presidents dos publish dos reference library dos secret weapons luftwaffe mpc shereware games dos shereware overload dos sher holmes consul det mpc sleeping beauty dos strd software bundle titles stellar dos mpc story time interactive dos the rom collection dos time magazine almanac current dos time table hist sci innovation dos tons gigs dos too many typefonts dos total baseball dos atlas automap dos history dos world atlas dos mpc wars civil war dos wild places dos wing com ultima dos mpc world view dos mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet net voice internet mkbaird david uunet net mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet net voice internet mkbaird david uunet net
misc.forsale	motherboard for sale got motherboard for sale processor ram ami bios setup math coprocessor socket expansion slots full sized motherboard fits any full sized case all manuals included make offer reason for sale got new workstation play with now also other peripherals vga card moditor teac disk drives printer etc available mail for more info the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
misc.forsale	panasonic dot matrix printer complete would like sell dot matrix printer can upgrade inkjet panasonic pin multi mode printer here are the stats from memory and the manual dot printing for res graphics etc very fast cps printing printer controlled opposed windows driver controlled printing bidirectional printing for faster processing speed fonts courier prestige bold script sans serif epson and ibm proprinter printer emulation can accept single sheets envelopes and non carbon copies friction feed front bottom paper feed buffer will send sample document and printed gif jpeg file anyone who wishes send sase with purchase prepaid please will include the following accessories manual cable centronics remaining stack tractor fed paper about free copy windows printer driver unless this illegal included with windows free unregistered dos shareware program registration think that apparently offers some word processing capabilities from dos the last two will disk either size asking for around but open any reasonable offers college student cannot afford buy new printer without getting considerable portion the money from this printer this price includes all above items and shipping probably ups included well have the original box but only one the original styrofoam end pieces will use towel the other end you get free towel too worked fine getting here the whole shebang might not fit the original box will figure this out after the offers come email any questions and offers jon jmatkins midway uchicago edu jmatkins ellis uchicago edu
misc.forsale	turbografx system for sale for sale nec turbografx video game system package includes base unit with power supply hookups controller and the games keith courage alpha zones and ordyne one extra controller turbotap let you hook many controllers the all original packaging manuals etc for the above items the games sports football alien crush splatterhouse and takin the hoop current market price for the above system approximately asking price system was purchased january this year and has seen little use since then interested contact via one the methods signature file chris freemesser rit cpet visit rochester new york where money the priority home the world largest usenet clf ultb rit edu collection potholes genie freemesser
misc.forsale	adlib sound board for sale article bitzm columbia dsu edu bitzm columbia dsu edu michael bitz writes have adlib sound board for sale includes the original disks and throw windows wav sound file driver for those you that are using your speaker for games this will much welcomed board for your includes shipping your home office email bitzm columbia dsu edu considering that you can get brand new sounds blaster original for around think this price way too high then again things are worth what someone will pay for them jason settle down raise family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and chevrolet and party till you broke and they drag you away yankovic
misc.forsale	softwares games new used for sale have following softwares for sale new items never opened lucid three dimensional spreadsheet with pull down menus line help pages notes behind every cell for dynamic detail capability compatible with lotus etc including shipping manual disks turbo pascal express with ready run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier use disks and manual including shipping halo iii much more than icon driven paint program complete page composition and presentation graphics package automatic aspect ratio correction for wysiwyg printing true color grey scale output and partial screen prints disks and manual including shipping key form designer plus software for making professional business forms disks and manual plus shipping like new items package opened but not registered jetfighter advanced tactical fighter well and disks and manuals plus shipping obo nighthwak stealth fighter the definitive simulation america radar elusive jet sensational sound nine world hot spots cuba north korea the kuwaiti theatre operations central europe the north cape libya the persian gul vietnam and the middle east awesome missions challenge you disks and manual plus shipping obo grammatik plus shipping quattro pro make offer gem chart graphics word publisher make offer all items above are for ibm compatible systems
misc.forsale	reduced sony players sale item sony cdpx condition excellent age year old price includes tos link item sony cdp condition excellent age years old price everything comes with the original packaging and manuals these items have only been played through audiophile system and are excellent shape you are interested need any additional information please mail andrew cmu edu call home thanks jon yes these are for sale again
misc.forsale	genesis megadrive games for sale trade have the following genesis megadrive games for sale trade for other genesis snes games all games will work with both and machines except where stated and all are boxed with instructions warriors the eternal sun outlander death duel chakan the forever man wonder boy monster land sennas super monaco only ill accept sterling make offer cheers jonathan onathan phone address department computing fax lancaster university mail jonathan comp lancs lancaster lancs
misc.forsale	snes genesis games for sale trade have the following genesis carts for sale trade alien global gladiators crue ball have the following snes carts for sale trade jimmy connors tennis super play action football cross system trades are fine cheers marc the net one can hear you scream email marc comp lancs marc computing lancaster
misc.forsale	for sale following are for sale each cost except otherwise indicated which includes shipping and handling achtung baby joshua tree the immaculate collection madonna love hurts cher garth brooks garth brooks red hot chilli peppers ooooohhhhh tlc light and shadows wilson used only once never used most them are still shrink wraps please email kgc woods ulowell edu
misc.forsale	month old polk speakers for sale month old polk system for sale excellent condition month old proof available polk monitor bookshelf speakers are being offered for sale the are excellent and sound great going for higher model need sell these speakers paid for the pair bookshelf speakers willing consider the best offer send your offers mail suraj jhu edu also have excellent condition luxman receiver and onkyo tape deck for sale both are excellent condition and just months old makes excellent system paid for receiver tape deck and speakers months back will consider the best offer each piece will sold seperately wanted mail best offer suraj jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	uhc svr forsale article kzo gator com larry gator com larry snyder writes darylm illian mnet com daryl mcdaniel writes considering the conversation about uhc the net wouldn say good deal considering the package inflated price start with larry snyder larry gator com what problems have you had with uhc have been using their for years and have had very few problems eddie tuggle etuggle dora auc trw com there nothing either good trw denver operations bad but thinking makes centretech pky aurora shakespeare voice fax
misc.forsale	sls linux for sale disk tape since have some free time while looking for job thought would offer linux disk and tape for those who need note offering this service for experienced users who require support simply put just disk shuffler you think you will need support highly recommend softlanding linux system sls directly they provide excellent product decent price with support the lazy mans service for those who don want spend hours the modem and hours shuffling floppies and those who don need sls support and opt alone what you get each disk disk minimum minimal system disks base system extras disks compilers disks documentation disks source misc disk tex disks windows disks entire set discount the entire set tape for send check money order stephen balbach enberend terrace columbia send mail can have ready sooner stephen access digex com
misc.forsale	maxtor info needed was unix software for sale qvs knh crl crl com bob nntp crl com bob ames writes here list items for the which selling list deleted pps priam hard drives exactly same maxtor but faster does anyone know what the jumpers should set the maxtor have that came off that would like use thanks advance colin
misc.forsale	for sale mac classic and stylewriter selling macintosh classic and stylewriter the highest bidder you can reach san francisco via email forsythe leland stanford edu david goldberger
misc.forsale	test instruments for sale the following longer for sale has been sold textronics type storage display screen dim textronics base with three mhz pulse generators textronics adj power supply volts amps keithley instruments picoammeter analogic digit panal mount voltmeters still for sale hewlett packard oscilloscope with four channel mhz vertical amplifier and time base and delay generator best offer over analogic digit panal mount voltmeter powered vdc model same dimensions above shipping reasonable offers will accepted please respond mail phone mail halle rpi edu phone
misc.forsale	receiver and equilizer for sale have sold the receiver the equilizer still for sale technics integrated quartz synthesizer digital receiver sold audio control graphic equilizer this awesome but broke bands channel octave subsonic filter rumble reducer tape monitor amazing real time spectrum analyzer with calibrtated microphone and pink noise generator calibrated and uncalibrated range adjustment display calibrated and can display the average energy per band the average for the full speactrum great for checking how loud your system the display action has two speed settings adjust how quickly the display responds transients this one the best equilizers around very quiet and the display fascinating watch sells for stores will sell for obo send all responses halle rpi edu call eve
misc.forsale	hummel collectors left chimney sweep number closed edition line purchased west germany retail sell extra have picture you want see first excellent shape chips cracks great idea for mother day this great buy interested please mail call eves brose
misc.forsale	catalog hard find enhancements repost andy freeman writes joe doll writes the catalog personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for class machines focus engineering and scien tific applications pcs such data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation you would like free copy reply with your postal mailing address very interested your catalog but mail you bounces don bother never comes cheap trick for building mailing list sell junk mail flow any indication have copy this catalog front write this does have tons qool stuff impression that they try not send out browsers appears that your not buyer engineer they not want waste catalog you when you get catalog there vip code you have give them ensure your continued subscription anyway you want get touch with them the company personal computing tools division street campbell they also have fax and toll free for ordering and tech support please note that not associated with them any way fact have never ordered from them can comment their products service but the catalog real and sitting here salivating over
misc.forsale	expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts heavy duty commercial tiny inch waterproof vhf watt channel handheld two way radio motorola expo purchased new for amateur frequencies absolute condition never scratched dropped opened otherwise comprosmised can crystaled for business band has slot original price motorola expo vhf watt chan comes with portable charger antenna manual new cad pack back housing belt clip motorola extra new cad pack motorola extra vhf rubber duckie antenna motorola desktop quick charger motorola external speaker mic motorola cig lighter battery eliminator motorola heavy duty nylon holster motorola expo technical manuals motorola expo tuning case opening tools would like best offer thanks lot jeff jeff later tza jeffl pmafire inel gov have become disclaimer disclaimer where lawyer comfortably numb pink floyd
misc.forsale	sega genesis for sale sonic aboyko dixie com andrew boyko writes month old sega genesis barely used one controller original box with sonics and gets the whole bundle shipped you turns out they not addictive when they yours anyway mail you interested this marvel modern technology well been informed that the price the whole thing selling now less than the price selling for that will teach wait that long before getting rid electronic equipment nevermind everyone keeping the thing andrew boyko aboyko dixie com
misc.forsale	case mfm contr game card sound card forsale desktop case watt power supply internal bays and external origanaly dell system case looks real good all hardware included would like shipping best offer western digital mfm controler bit floppy hard never had problem with would like shipping best offer game card works well nothing fancy just joystick port would like shipping best offer innovation game sound card has one game port and adlib port never used got soundblaster cheep before installed would like shipping all offers considered buyer pays shipping please resopnd klwright eos ncsu edu thanks ken
misc.forsale	monitor for sale for sale kfc svga monitor non interlaced screen still under warranty best offer
misc.forsale	used stuff have this used equipment for sale everything negotiable baud compuadd internal modem all docs and software sco unix all disks and docs has uucp all utils old floppy drive functional out old dead rll drive don know whats wrong with old joystick don remember the brand name old boat anchor cga monitor with full length cga card serial card pin test drive iii accolade all prices neg shipping
misc.forsale	ford galaxy original owner miles california car posting this for mom and dad neighbor please contact her directly for sale ford galaxy door cid engine automatic blue miles yes that correct was her car original owner alway garaged california inland valley car rust paint good original interior good professionally maintained everything good shape except gas gauge doesn work all original except brake light added call
misc.forsale	stuff misc stuff cards micro channel arcnet coax net cards serial adapter parallel adapters coprocessor memory expansion option expanded memory adapter expanded memory adapter alloy ftc mca tape adapter drives hard floppy hdd model hdd model fdd fdd this what have aquired over the past few years components have posted the part you have any questions what component you can call ibm and find out have idea make offer trades welcome dan scherer voice pager seanews seattle public access usenet news mail news xanadu seanews akita com
misc.forsale	comics for sale want get rid alot comics that have selling for off the overstreet price guide comic condition arion batman detective comics contest champions contest champions contest champions crystar daredevil elektra dies daredevil fantastic four app black panther joe hercules incredible hulk app wolverine the krypton chronicles the man thing the man thing marvel age marvel age marvel and present men and new teen titans marvel graphic novel app new mutants the marvel guide collecting comics marvel team marvel team master kung the micronauts micronauts king size annual new mutants copies new mutants new mutants the omega men red sonja ripley believe not true war strories rom spaceknight rom spaceknight the secret society super villains peter parker the spectacular spiderman amazing spiderman star trek super villain classics origin galactus new teen titans uncanny tales publisher file copy vision and the scarlet witch what the avengers had never been wolverine limited series wolverine limited series wolverine limited series wolverine limited series men men men men
misc.forsale	books for sale someone please buy these books not asking much just make offer and will probably take calculus analytic geometry authur simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable writing good software fortran graham smith the holt handbook kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide algebra trigonometry problem solving approach edition flemming and varberg very good condition general chemistry principles modern applications petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send your offers via email chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	tektronix equipment color terminal printer rasterizer supplies for sale tektronix color terminal tektronix rasterizer tektronix inkjet printer tektronix printer extras all tektronix products paper boxes transparencies boxes maintenance cartridges cart magenta ink cartridge cart would like sell single lot and preference will given offers for the entire list all offers accepted best offer gets the equipment bob robert worsham bob email worsham aer com atmospheric environmental research inc voice memorial drive fax cambridge usa
misc.forsale	what deal boy boy have got deal for you how does this sound have decided sell all this package deal unless someone really wants something seperate then open that well kramer striker electric guitar dark metallic blue floyd rose tremlo tuning lockers the nut great action all around great guitar plus korg pme professional modular effects pedal board has flanger chorus and graphic equilizer has unique bonus you can buy seperate pedal boxes that sort slide into any the existing slots mono input stereo output perfect for the electric acoustic guitars plus dod american metal distortion pedal durable great sounding pedal goes great with the korg pedal board there you have everything you need for great sound yours package deal for only respond email dietrijj mentor purdue edu phone and ask for jason thanks advance jason dietrich
misc.forsale	porsche bay area posting this for friend sunnyvale california porsche gts package leather interior european handling package sunroof cruise control miles new paint immaculate every way delivery possible destination with deposit firm low book high book phone frank rosqui new this vehicle was this posting does not reflect the opinions employer
misc.forsale	selling riding lawn mower ariens riding lawn mower this mower perfect condition and contains the following features electric start inch cut double rear baggers new battery new engine one year old inflatable tires gives nice ride cushioned seat gives nice ride moving into house that has small area grass cut and does not require such large mower the engine was replaced not rebuilt last year due some faulty work done lawn mower repair shop price phone leave message
misc.forsale	for sale cheap logic boards update here the updated list the stuff still have for sale also feel free make offer asking per board currently known electronic mother boards from old arcade games game name condition manufacturer tenyard fight iren tenyard fight bad internal short iren kangaroo sun electronics okay but has interference guardian tip top sega bank panic sega sanritsu sega radar scope okay nintendo poseidon taito ninjakun bad needs capacitor crystal jass rack jamma double dribble zoar okay super trivia bad got fried greyhound electronics slither has error message century corp music trivia jaleco samurai fore groud char disapear taito poseidon okay taito ant eater tago electronics down buzzing sound tutankham bad konami pro wrestling okay video trivia grayhound asteron belt sega unknown boards sega konami pacific novelty manufacturing inc anyone has the rom numbers for these boards please tell absolutely unknown board misc stuff somekind powersupply similar atary audio reg ram card midway midway patter board sync buss controller pacman filters midway pin scsi cable both ends are female alex fagundes proud owner maverick and another microfsh iastate edu believer that amiga rules
misc.forsale	tires for sale have set four big tires that had thunder bird bought them and then traided the car they would not give anything for them had them taken off drove about miles them they are mile tires they are sporty looking low profile and take corners realy well you are interested please contact dusmadso idbsu idbsu edu idaho usa
misc.forsale	memory howdy just posting this for friend don reply have friend who has some simms for sale for for also has conner hard drive for runs his name john and can reached his bbs called classified connection the sysop and you can call him and hear his awesome voice adios the the the the
misc.forsale	for sale jazz recordings for sale jazz compact discs have the following cds for sale they are all mint condition and are fairly hard find they are all the savoy label and put out dennon dennon bought the rights savoy and released these disks would like sell them all one package deal but will consider individual orders these are the titles and artists telefunken blues milt jackson kenny clarke percy heath frank morgan frank wess walter benton jazz concert west coast the bopland boys opus jazz vol john rae steve kuhn bobby jaspar jake hannah john neves patterns jazz cecil payne kenny dorham duke jordan tommy potter art taylor penthouse serenade erroll garner footloose paul bley the imortal lester young lester young count basie great britain marian mcpartland george shearing howard mcghee and milt jackson self titled just love jazz piano hampton hawes john mehegan herbie nichols paul smith art pepper sonny reid self titled opus blues frank wess thad jones curtis fuller charlie fowlkes hank jones eddie jones gus johnson jazz busting out all over too many names list opus swing frank wess kenny burrell freddie green eddie jones kenny clarke jackson ville milt jackson lucky thompson hank jones wendell marshall kenny clarke will take any reasonable offer the package the discs well offers individual discs please mail with response call thanx derek derek serianni mail djserian flash lakeheadu sociologist miles chicago got full tank lakehead university gas half pack cigarettes dark and thunder bay ontario wearing sunglasses elwood blues
misc.forsale	ega vga monitor card wanted says the subject looking for decent ega vga monitor card combo that working condition the only thing that must bit card mail all offers maine maine edu thanks merv
misc.forsale	itproper net etiquette advertise company junk mail list article jccg tsoft net you write stuff deleted company maintains mailing list which regularly rented for one time use the major software companies the method you are using seed your junk mail isn really effective bulk mailers regulary either send their databases cleaned the ncoa which you moved recently will revert back the original xxx cool and large mailings there will likely dupe you and they pick the first and use the others for future mailings btw our list currently one the hottest lists for actual buyers windows utility product the range and available through direct media per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks ted impression that net etiquette does not allow companies use the net directly advertise their products addition improper etiquette this product mailing list used for generating junk mail correct assuming this improper and what can done penalize such improper use dale thompson
misc.forsale	montreal olympics souvenirs montreal olympics philatelic souvenirs color illustrated booklet french english containing all stamps issued for the games mint never hinged slipcase over face value stamps insured first class mailing unusual desk pad holder with olympic rings the cover and the montreal stadium inside all the canadian olympic stamps are displayed the cover under heavy plastic again over face value insured first class mailing order both for including insured delivery
misc.forsale	cpm stuff forsale forsale cpm computers model ampro rev with without floppy drives and system disks processor unknown brand miniscribe model hard drive height shugart model floppy drive keyboard system disks also shugart model floppy drives also commodore computer disk drive will sell whole parts buyer pays shipping make offers either email beers buffalo edu call and ask for jonathan andrew
misc.forsale	realistic pro hand held scanner offer for your scanner shipping your expense payment sent personal check within hours after receipt goods you live nearby and can deliver payment cash with hour advance notice can the bank sent mail reserve the right return expense when check out find defective some way btw why would you sell such fine scanner did you replace with some other instrument find not satisfactory some way mark thorson
misc.forsale	chair typewriter boston ibm meg disk drive extended keyboard mouse mouse pad dos dosshell excel windo word amipro gre studyware zenith date systems supersport laptop computer recharger model dos disc drives for floppy carrying case manuals leather desk chairs black brown both for olivetti manual typewriter tropical model incl characters for typing italian language please reply via email call home number thanks jason jason boro jboro enterprise bih harvard edu center for clinical computing boston
misc.forsale	printing date apr gmt from cozzlab garnet berkeley edu article apr sarah albany edu albnyvms bitnet writes advertises his printing business dear let the first block you have just violated one the major shibboleths the usenet groups nit unable type the first this word you not supposed use newsgroup plug your own commercial enterprise any kind people frequently get flamed for announcing they got new book out don know whether this official usenet rule just long standing custom and doesn make much difference from practical point view matter fact does make difference almost half million new users joined the internet last year many them are commercial businesses the ban commercial use internet more one should have the breeding not post commercial material account provided ones employer school unless the provider such account gives permission those who pay for internet access are constrained only our innate good taste and have administrator guide jack previdi veni vidi fece psilink com
misc.forsale	help how get refund from visual images participated promotion company called visual images they sent award certificate three months ago and asked buy their promotion package order receive the major award they mislabled address and did not receive package until one month ago was mad and angry about how took them long get package wrote them letter and requested for refund they never return letter was lucky enough find out their telephone number through operator and received the package immediately returned the package and wrote them another letter ask for refund the package was returned because they address they put the package was incorrect attempted call them and learnd that they have changed their telephone number took least phone calls find out their new number but they refused take any responsibility spoke their manager and she said she would call back but she has not call yet but was able get their address from their front desk should just ahead and send the package should waite until they call back know there are several people the net has experience with the same company would like know how they got their money back you have similar experience please advise thanks advance douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	for sale karmann ghia karmann ghia this car excellent running condition new engine new tires aug new clutch new carb original radio upholstery great shape burgundy exterior black interior this car has been well maintained with regular tune ups unfortunately the car previous owner had minor front end collision the right front nose dented and patched with bondo have the hard find part needed repair this damage besides that damage the car excellent condition courtney email cst blueoak berkeley edu phone after weekdays
misc.forsale	for sale nissan sentra nissan sentra two door hatchback red cassette lots new parts well maintained very clean inside and out looks and runs great bob tracy please not respond this account
misc.forsale	horse breeding and saling dear sirs the private agricultural firm dina breeding pedigree horses sportmodel class mainly trakenensky gannoversky and thoroughbred horses have heads dams getters trakeninsky and thoroughbread breeds colts years old sport live stock horses concour class for passing the route with obstacles the firm has warm stable made brick arranged place horses have possibility expand the field activity and systematically prepare our horses concour class for sale for hard currency the experienced staff the firm internetional class master workes for breeding and training horses additional investments are necessary purchase larger dam live stock construction the riding house for training extra stables for two years our firm has been organizing hunting tourism the territory the national park not far from moscow about are also concerned the development trading connections delivering food products clothes foot wear etc russia our address russia obninsk marksa phone fax electronic mail dina litana obninsk vyacheslav chereshnev
misc.forsale	san mateo duplex house for sale san mateo duplex houses for sale west side location alameda and hwy large lot nice quiet location front neighbor space for pool jacuzzi spacious rooms cozy living room with fireplace only minutes from highways and and excellent schools shopping and transportation nearby unit one remodeled foot bedrooms baths large master suite den study eat kitchen very large backyard fenced backyard hardwood floor wall wall carpet marbel tile vinyl car garage car port washer and dryer hook living room dinning combo totally remodeled unit two brand new construction foot bedroom bath fire place dinning room private yard private entry detached unit washer dryer living room barbeque patio all separet utilities from the city price owner call medi amadi eves days baths
misc.forsale	wanted restaurant equipment wanted restaurant equipment for starting new restaurant burner stove hot plate fryer stainless steel tables shelves etc pots pans and number other items interested email shailesh shailesh potnis associate concurrent engineering research member technical staff center west virginia university
misc.forsale	wanted refrigerator wanted refrigerator contact jamesl galaxy nsc com
misc.forsale	smith corona typewriter for sale model scm electric smith corona typewriter for sale model scm electric great for forms envelopes labels small things etc that you just can with your microcomputer built like tank but not big nor that heavy classic compact electric with padded storage bag scratches enamel paint chips dents cloth ribbon colours will accept best offer near selling for friend these are her instructions not mine rsvp this account though make any other offers anyways pass them along single sheet feeder for the macintosh imagewriter would acceptable trade for example gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	tapes sale most sale tapes for sale each and the shipping included those tapes are year old and are hardly used there should not any problem with really want sell them make package offer you wish eagles the best eagles eagles hotel california elton john sleeping with the past gloria estefan into the light james ingram the power great music kenny duo tones lethal weapon music from the motion picture mariah carey mtv unplugged michael bolton time love and tenderness the phantom the opera genesis can dance phil collins but seriously queen the works queen live magic wilson phillips send your offer please send your offer koutd hirama hiram edu thanks you douglas kou hiram college hiram ohio
misc.forsale	genie garage door remote forsale have genie garage door transmitter forsale this unit three button station will operate three different door gate openers has never been used normaly goes for ask shipping interested please email mageors sdf lonestar org
misc.forsale	apology printing dear fellow usenet users would like give formal apology for posting advertisement about printing business did not intend this advertisement but rather offer for people the usenet many whom use printing regular basis was not aware that this not legal the usenet only trying put myself through college for those you who requested information will write you privately for those you who are having fun flooding mailbox think you can grow offer advice one thing but use profanity toward another thank you marc albnyvms bitnet
misc.forsale	jfk autograph for sale serious inquiries only after hearing about the mcgovern house story paul harvey never had any idea how much was worth the autograph senate pass card and signed john kennedy don remember was signed senator john kennedy whether not was dated because haven looked quite while currently safety deposit box would rather sell private collector rather then through auction house such christy since that would tend take away from the profit you any collector you may know has interest this please send mail expressing your interest will see what can make scanned gif available prospective buyers
misc.forsale	baud external modem mint box manual phonecord shipping dennis
misc.forsale	dbase for sale price reduced dbase for sale inch disks all registration included you can upgrade you want manuals still shrinkwrapped disks only opened verify they all work asking best offer
misc.forsale	for sale ems freq shifter this yet for friend again ems freq shifter the machine that made those swirling guitar effects way back the spacial panner with harmonic shifting very rare collectors item this the last unit ems ever made rack mountable mono down signals out with seperate pan out and sine unsine voltage outs vco input too control lfo interested contact kevin before pst california and make offer not reply this account have nice day xorcist cyberden the cyberden public access waffle usenet system
misc.forsale	various computer audio video items wanted unless otherwise noted mainly interested used items you have any the following for sale please contact email mbeck vtssi edu phone usmail michael beck progress street blacksburg virginia please give much info possible brand age condition etc wanted computer equip cheap tape drive pretty much any kind used memory for model new used macintosh computer mhz chip new used colorado tape drive megabyte preferr tapes used key keyboard high density disk drive printer oms laser deskjet series printer pin deskjet high density disk drive external adaptec scsi bit controller used piggy back memory expansion for intel inboard ide hard drive monitor resolution dot pitch better digital mult and laptop systems russia non computer equip drum set mult amps for band bigger stereo vcr heads stereo receiver watts more dolby prologic surround sound capability bed full queen sized local offers only please desk local offers only please due shipping constraints
misc.forsale	video camera amiga for sale you are interested any the following please contact email mbeck vtssi edu phone usmail michael beck progress street blacksburg virginia for sale panasonic ccd omnimovie camcorder vhs high speed shutter flying erase head years old but only used very lightly date time stamp counter memory rec review fade back light auto manual focus built microphone jack for external microphone comes with sturdy aluminum hardplastic carrying case long wide high shoulder strap power adaptor battery charger battery pack remote recording controller uhf vhf cable adaptor audio video cables and adaptor aproximate dimensions measured around outmost features long wide high handle asking price best offer new price amiga mhz unix compatible machine meg hard drive meg ram monitor keyboard esc and keys broken asking price obo mult proteon token ring cards sold portable cellular phone model asking price sold for listed new sold compaq lte laptop contact for details best offer far sold for
misc.forsale	cellular phone portable for sale offer shipment seller expense payment personal check sent mail within hours after receiving goods reserve the right return the goods expense find them defective otherwise unacceptable when receive them either the merchandise the check would mailed within hours mark thorson
misc.forsale	bware jayhayes deleware had deal with jay hayes from deleware and was ripped off not deal with this guy and you know him his door with bat lives deleware and will post his full address later well his phone number case any else wants call and leave nasty messages will not return email and will not return phone calls left message iwth hgis roomate call collect and hes not man enough still maintains net privilages can somehow get this turkey off the net
misc.forsale	toolwork mpc encyclopedia rom have the following program rom forsale toolwork mpc encyclopedia rom multimedia brand new shrink wrapped asking obo send reply sam ocf berkeley edu thank you
misc.forsale	portable color television for sale hello everyone have casio lcd color television for sale mint condition retail but looking get about that for tops highest bidder week gets assuming the highest bidder least comes with black case and uses batteries they also sell adaptor has external jack for phones and external antenna etc the picture very good and has electronic tuning you don have screw with tuning picture etc have the box and all documentation this has seen less than hours use have all but sworn off best regards jack waters
misc.forsale	quantum scsi hard drive for sale have quantum prodrive lps scsi hard drive for sale came with maciisi and was replaced larger hard drive great working condition fast and quiet never had problem asking cod shipping reasonable offer also for sale with the drive brand new mounting bracket for macii macse also includes scsi data and power cable with the please reply with email call and leave message thanks ding kai chen dcg uxa cso uiuc edu uiuc classifieds uiuc classifieds computer misc forsale misc forsale computer misc forsale computer mac misc forsale computer other misc forsale computer clone
misc.forsale	for sale airline ticket for states canada for sale northwest airline fly write ticket for travel within the states and canada from anywhere the country one way each round trip this ticket has restrictions and fully transferable however travel has completed buy june email arvind acuson com
misc.forsale	pin printer toshiba track friction feeds lcd display months old like new sample print out sheet geoworks available emulaser month old program vertisoft makes print out look like inkjet print out firm
misc.forsale	laptop mitsbishi laptop mhz switchable ram installed backlit cga ext cga mga hdd fdd com lpt ports complete manual set built like tank excellent cosmetic cond dark gray used very lightly problems hdd stops working lcd sometimes doesn work ext cag mga works best offer
misc.forsale	drive for sale honda dirt bike bought new from dealer ridden only hours garage kept and well cared for the bike mint condition perfect size for lady young adult price firm you will not disappointed ohio kentucky indiana inquiries preferred please work leave voicemail please rob davis cincinnati ohio again this new bike
misc.forsale	for sale ibm wheelwriter just won ibm wheelwriter typewriter raffle here campus since have nice computer and really need the cash putting for sale have offer from local reseller for best offer above that plus shipping brian northwestern university economics international studies olson nwu edu brian david olson bdolson casbah acns nwu edu bdolson cica bdolson merle acns nwu edu bdolson sevaxu cica
misc.forsale	update pioneer deh car reciever for sale features include detachable face watt amplifier infra red remote times oversampling bit dac supertuner and presets best station memory changer controller loud switch clock all original packaging asking best offer this reciever very nice radio great condition the remote comes very handy you wouldn think would top the line reciever interested send email brion sohn easu orion oac uci edu any resonable offers will considered latest offer including shipping
misc.forsale	mccartney concert tickets for sale four tickets available for the paul mccartney concert the alamo dome san antonio may ground floor seats will sell all four pairs each mail dennisod itx isc com
misc.forsale	akg electrostatic dynamic headphones for sale have pair akg headphones for sale they are electrostatic dyanmic headphone dynamic element for the bottom end and electrostatic for the high end they are very comfortable and sound very nice they are like new condition would like cdn for the pair brett maraldo unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	ampex recording tape for sale have full reels ampex recording tape this tape was used once ips and carefully stored all reel include ampex tape band the tape has not been bulk erased knowledge the history the tape know and available upon request jmar toronto sells new for tax canadian would like cdn reel which will include postage brett maraldo plexus productions the reels are long standard thickness unit research alien technology today bmaraldo watserv uwaterloo uunet clyde utai watserv bmaraldo
misc.forsale	wizard pen based organizer link for sale for sale pen based electronic organizer brand new sharp wizard with link software and cable ounces measures fits most pockets ram available user pen touch screen input for pointing and drawing keyboard big enough touch type screen windows pop menus excellent scheduler with alarms telephone directories user configurable databases full word processor with formatting drawing utility outliner list calculator clock calendar terminal emulatorw dialing directory directory filing system serial port infrared port card slot uses aaa batteries about months daily use all manuals organizer link software and cable for exchanging data between wizard and best offer for both pay shipping steven friedman horizon institute for policy solutions mail path smf virginia bitnet voice path
misc.forsale	tcd dat walkman for sale recently backed out purchasing almost unused sony tcd dat walkman having found someone else who has unit personally prefer and paying more for however still heck machine for the price quite rugged and many people out there swear probably the most popular walkman style dat machine out there anyway the guy selling bryan davis bdavis netcom com and here what told here what included tcd datman rca stereo plug cables one for analog input one for analog output optical digital cable one lead for input one for output copy sales receipt with note about your purchase the unit still under factory warrantee adaptor battery charger rechargable battery paid tax for hope you don mind keep the minute tape came with have some samples the way spent least too much for unless including extended warranty which advised for dat machines since costs about replace the head when wears out and probably will within years you use lot davisonj not going quote sale price for him that would not nice send him mail and ask him what wants again used the tcd and have say that can certainly understand why popular been using one for little while and although had some problems with recently should also point out that the particular one was using had been the road for two years and had truly been used during that time this the same exact dat machine that was lugged around the and canada record the jazz butcher conspiracy for their recent live album bryan davis says know least half dozen professional musicians and record labels who use that model and have been for while with reported problem problem that everyone know already has one nuff said the reason not getting that found someone else selling unit that features phono plug spdif instead optical don have any optical ports equipment but you the reader might and also has some other bells whistles that the tcd doesn also paying more for the alternative note that phono plug optical spdif adapters are available you absolutely must have one course has scms all consumer decks sony minidiscs the way anyway you interested get touch with bdavis netcom com john davison davisonj ecn purdue edu
misc.forsale	hallicrafters have hallicrafters radio for sale worked the last time tried out make offer michael deignan sex hereditary your domain mpd anomaly sbs com parents never had chances tnet are you won either telebit
misc.forsale	son genuine vinyl records sale thank you all for requesting list and thank you again you purchased vinyl from lotsa more vinyl leftover for sale vinyl looking for new home please buy some more can stop running this bunches vinyl records for sale including metal acetate not heavy metal music but all and get amazing deal email for big list and details mass usa arthur noguerola vos stratus com
misc.forsale	fortegraph emulator card what this someone gave this brand new card thinking sell cuz don need but the problem that don even know what this this was made forte communications has board combined together looks wierd and has pin ports one male and one female and also has round port like bnc not sure this was made and has fortegraph emulator diagnostic disk with has anyone here ever seen this known what this appreciate your help advance eric
misc.forsale	wanted trombone for beginner article aam fnnews fnal gov greg schuweiler schuweiler fnal gov writes would like purchase trombone for year old because this really really want want play daddy practice everyday and even keep room really clean well must really mean would like find used one please mail schuweiler fnal gov greg schuweiler schuweiler fnal gov got used one for sale used high school and just don have the occasion get out and play anymore email and can work out something can get email you for some reason david david snyder logicon technical services inc dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb mil wright patterson air force base dayton ohio usa said that god doesn subtract from ones time earth those hours spent flying cessna the lady waiting owner operator opinions expressed are own and not those logicon the usaf
misc.forsale	golf shoes size used pair golf shoes size good shape holes etc plus shipping david david snyder logicon technical services inc dsnyder falcon aamrl wpafb mil wright patterson air force base dayton ohio usa said that god doesn subtract from ones time earth those hours spent flying cessna the lady waiting owner operator opinions expressed are own and not those logicon the usaf
misc.forsale	snes games for sale trade have the following games for sale trade for other snes genesis megadrive games all have instructions and box except where stated sfc mickeys magical quest instructions suzukis super grandprix legend the mystical ninja snes out this world another world super soccer snes krustys fun house irem skins golf super tennis currently under offer will sell for for pounds cheers jonathan onathan phone address department computing fax lancaster university mail jonathan comp lancs lancaster lancs
misc.forsale	darkroom supplies enlarger for sale besler enlarger including filters negative carriers darkroom supplies containers trays thermometer beakers paper focuser etc also have paper chemicals but think these are past expiration date everything great working condition bought about year ago and has served its purpose well hasn been used few months because don have the time money keep with and its just sitting bathroom taking space like use like sell someone who would use rather than collect dust bathroom you are interested the whole package will sell everything including shipping for you have something else mind open suggestions please reply this account thank you michelle
misc.forsale	telepath fax modem for gateway gateway telepath fax modem for gateway computer with crosstalk winfax pro for windows never used shipped from gateway hong
misc.forsale	microsoft dos upgrade for sale article ahall apr slothrop fmrco com ahall fmrco com andrew hall writes article rvnz unx sas com sasjhc maxwell unx sas com joe croos writes yuanchie eve usc edu yuan chieh hsu writes dos upgrade for sale best offer over opened unregistered gee copy magazine states that the upgrade retailing for egghead across the street sells for and going that way after work compusa has for boston will sell for including shipping walter seefeld the dawn early light jackson all know right starkville going reap what have sown qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	piano free charity have one those heavy antique upright pianos would like contribute any charity with muscle enough get out house get response from charity will sell for you haul good shape needs tuning south durham county mcadams data general corporation mcadams rtp com alexander drive backbone mcnc rti rtp mcadams research triangle park mcadams data general corporation mcadams rtp com alexander drive backbone mcnc rti rtp mcadams research triangle park
misc.forsale	new stereo system for sale month old stereo system for sale luxman receiver onkyo tape deck and polk monitor book shelf speakers are for sale receiver has year warranty and all equipment excellent condition paid for the system and willing consider the best offer will sell seperate pieces also desired please send best offer suraj jhu edu speakers polk monitor bookshelf speakers paid pair willing consider best offer receiver luxman receiver with year yes years warranty paid willing consider best offer full remote pairs speaker connections watts per channel but drives like watts per channel has all the standard features and more tape deck onkyo tape deck paid willing consider best offer dual cassette dolby and pro input level control for recording auto reverse both sides has all standard features send mail with best offer suraj jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	for sale pontiac grand prix for sale pontiac grand prix white white rims gray interior miles mostly highway litre multi port fuel injected engine speed manual transmission options include rear defogger power steering power brakes power windows power locks power mirrors cruise control power glass moonroof with sunshade power seat recliner driver power seat comfort lumbar headrest both cassette stero electronic monitor service system with graphic compass stereo controls duplicated steering wheel remote keyless entry and others asking the car looks and rides like just rolled off the dealers lot has been garaged and pampered gets average mpg highway sometimes better city around mpg depending how driven selling because baby coming soon need door family car will consider trade partial trade with ford taurus mercury sable door pontiac grand similar american car contact mike home work michaelq tlaloc stratus com
misc.forsale	power supplies obo two research power supplies series currently wired for vac control lines sense off pwr fail high margin current monitor list price from research each qty asking for the pair obo steve glicker steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu
misc.forsale	sony cardiscman forsale have used sony cardiscman for sale bought new june still has the one year warranty intact specifications sony best car discman perfect condition oversampling bit converter beam laser pickup dual color display dsp sound processing bass boost and dds modes levels effect way repeat hold mode can also run just batteries track programming repeat random play delete fused cigarette lighter adapter could save the player something goes wrong accesories headphone plug line out jack sony mdr headphones power adapter patch cord for home use automobile mouting plate car conecting pack remote control great for home use carrying case extra fuses this unit great use any car can moved easily between vehicles works well home car just need cigaraette lighter outlet and cassette player have everything that came with manuals packaging receipts etc the unit perfect condition with normal well taken care use extremely versatile and manuverable unit that can used anywhere asking for the system and extras please mail interested brent wagner wagnerbm sage purdue edu
misc.forsale	scanning radio realistic pro was sell for article alt radio scanner path usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu from cleveland freenet edu aaron barnes newsgroups alt radio scanner subject realistic pro for sale was sell for obo date apr gmt organization case western reserve university cleveland ohio usa lines message usenet ins cwru edu nntp posting host slc ins cwru edu hello have realistic pro scanner for sale here small desc ription programible chanels fully detailed backlighted digital display headphone jack antenna jack removable telescoping antenna auto search coverage mhz mhz mhz originally cost but will sell for thank you buchanan fear the goverment that fears your guns without the amendment cannot guarantee freedoms cleveland freenet edu buchanan fear the goverment that fears your guns without the amendment cannot guarantee freedoms cleveland freenet edu
misc.forsale	new stereo system components for sale month old stereo system for sale luxman receiver onkyo tape deck and polk monitor book shelf speakers are for sale receiver has year warranty and all equipment excellent condition paid for the system and willing consider the best offer will sell seperate pieces also desired please send best offer suraj jhu edu speakers polk monitor bookshelf speakers paid pair willing consider best offer receiver luxman receiver with year yes years warranty paid willing consider best offer full remote pairs speaker connections watts per channel but drives like watts per channel has all the standard features and more tape deck onkyo tape deck paid willing consider best offer dual cassette dolby and pro input level control for recording auto reverse both sides has all standard features send mail with best offer suraj jhu edu suraj
misc.forsale	memory needed wanted amiga memory expander any size least meg populated not insider etc needed desperately cash deal trade for mnp everex evercom external modem internal modem bis external modem apple parts lots cards panasonic video ccd video camera lenses great for digi view etc ccd lens burn send email asap the heartbeat america yesterdays camaro tfoley camaro uucp call the camaro linux pub access site usrobotics hst note please ftpmail mailing lists the host gets annoyed
misc.forsale	amplifiers and speakers for sale course linear power model channel automotive stereo amplifier watts peak per channel ohm stable fidelity tested you pay shipping pair two mobile authority woofers inch inch voice coil magnet watt peak power handeling ohms for both you pay shipping will not sell seperatly reply thru mail karl schimmel the wichita state university krschimm twsuvax krschimm wsuhub twsu edu
misc.forsale	olivetti selling compatible comes with green screen cga monitor floppy drive and megabyte hard drive you would think was brand new from the condition asking price shipping reply via mail interested
misc.forsale	vhs movie for sale vhs movie for sale dance with wovies the tape new and just open buyer pay shipping cost you are interested please send your offer koutd hirama hiram edu thanks douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	vhs movie for sale article apr hirama hiram edu koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou writes vhs movie for sale dance with wovies what the hell ios wovie wovy from there here from here there funny things are everywhere suess jonathan sawitsky some random wierdo martimer wpi wpi edu
misc.forsale	system for sale make offer for sale complete package only commodore computer like new the box with power supply and owners manuals commodore disk drive like new the box and owners manual commodore color monitor like new and owners manual panasonic kxp dot matrix printer like new and owners manual printer interface for panasonic printer fastload cartridge huge stack books programming make reasonable offer and throw disks software please reply mail joachim nave nave jato jpl nasa gov jet propulsion laboratory pasadena california disclaimer don speak for jpl
misc.forsale	vhs movie for sale article qvk jnu bigboote wpi edu martimer jaguar wpi edu the random one writes article apr hirama hiram edu koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou writes vhs movie for sale dance with wovies what the hell ios wovie wovy one those animals you dance with but seriously saw this video for sale brand new palmer video for guess could resell them for would dance like wovie
misc.forsale	wanted the subject says looking for perferiably please mail replies thanks steven eckwielen bitnet she ritvax internet she ritvax isc rit edu uucp rutgers rochester rit ritvax she
misc.forsale	radar detector whistler whistler spectrum pulse protection good condition purchased for asking for jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	camera olympus stylus super small olympus stylus pocket sized red eye reduction timer fully automatic time date stamp carrying case smallest camera its class rated consumer reports excellent condition and only months old worth purchased for selling for jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton mail jyow desire wright edu
misc.forsale	cpu chip for sale cyrix amd not intel clones beware from what understand neither the amd cyrix are clones the intel they are using the name because they run fast intel they not have exactly the same instuction set nor they fit into the same socket most are very fast without coprocessors amd recent won the appeal against intel use their microcode they should putting out real chips the near future marc mallen wyvern wyvern com
misc.forsale	vhs movie for sale article qvk jnu bigboote wpi edu martimer jaguar wpi edu the random one writes dance with wovies what the hell ios wovie wovy what the hell ios fix your own typos before you blame others skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	cpu chip for sale this entire dispute over chip has deluged this newsgroup with lot posts that have nothing sell all harkens back certain user post month ago stop posting computer equipment here save for the computer forsale newsgroups you don get the computer forsale newsgroups then ask your sysadmin try subscribe your location otherwise knock off
misc.forsale	mac forsale this repost earlier thanks several you for offering advise realistic prices mac megs ram meg hard disk floppy absolutely perfect condition includes word pagemaker quark xpress quicken and the latest versions about dozen other programs price
misc.forsale	canon camera system for sale have the following canon items for sale the condition listed numerical indicates like new condition canon body multiprogram dual metering system build motor drive etc canon canon with canon hood excellent portrait lens osawa zoom made japan with soft case soligor macro zoom japan with hard case vivitar sms dedicated thyristor flash box with manual asking obo not included interested mail huawang src umd edu call
misc.forsale	gig fujitsu disk drive for sale gigabyte fujitsu disk drive internal drive model uses either scsi edi interface your disk controller card brand new still box never used only compare cheapest mail order catalogs posted for friend pleade respond jbredt athena
misc.forsale	hard drive for sale had posted this before but the buyer fell through here goes again western digital caviar meg ide inch drive has built cache believe but not positive still unopened original static bag asking obo
misc.forsale	sega forsale folks need for some money purchase video game backup unit have decided let sega unit heres the deal sega genesis rom unit playes sega games playes regular playes graphics comes pack ins sega hot hits regular music rock paintings music graphics karoki like sol feace shooter sherlock holmes mystery clue book docs sega classics streets rage revenge shinobi columns golden axe docs box and documents unit included all games comes jewels and documentation unless otherwise specified other games cobra command docs have water dammage road avenger weeks old night trap docs all games come jewels and documentation unless otherwise specified going sell all this the highest bidder would like start all the above trade for genesis snes video backup unit you would like bid make offer just drop some mail will keep everone informed what the current bids are foxfire foxfire access digex com
misc.forsale	bare micronics system reduced bare case power supply and motherboard with ram and coprocessor everything else yours add you like the motherboard made micronics slot motherboard with intel mhz cpu sram cache ram using simms worth alone cyrix math coprocessor worth alone norton rating latest version phoenix bios the case power supply standard desktop case watt power supply with the usual connectors room for five floppy hard drives three visible two internal new micronics cpus often command several hundred dollar premium over clone motherboards because they are made use high quality components and are known both very reliable and compatible they have been oemed systems sold both gateway and zeos various points the past check out the ads the back pages byte magazine you want see this price differential for yourself price complete less you don want need the case and power supply the board fully guaranteed email for further details for any questions thanks david ruggiero jdavid halcyon com seattle home the moss people
misc.forsale	video audio computer equipment for sale time for some spring cleaning the following items are for sale roland multi timbre sound module synthesis upto simultaneous voices preset timbres char backlit lcd display midi out thru reference card stereo output etc great for games that support music the far superior any sound card experimenting with midi for adding additional sounds your midi setup shipping canon xapshot still video camera system includes camera carrying pouch battery pack battery charger adapter video cables two floppies each disk holds pictures for pics total manuals etc video output standard ntsc composite and can sent any ntsc device television for direct viewing your pictures vcr record slideshow computer video digitizer save manipulate the pictures computer system shipping ambico video enhancer audio mixer three line stereo audio mixer with microphone input and master volume slider video enhancer boost sharpen video images when dubbing from vcr vcr camcorder vcr etc shipping baud internal modem shipping quantum internal prodrive hard disk this unit has recently turned unreliable and erratic usage could simple easily fixed problem major problem but any rate don have the time find out where the problem lies you want take risk you can have for shipping interested any the above items please email hsieh zeno ccwf utexas edu
misc.forsale	video audio computer equipment for sale apr wrote quantum internal prodrive hard disk this unit has recently turned unreliable and erratic usage could simple easily fixed problem major problem but any rate don have the time find out where the problem lies you want take risk you can have for shipping forgot mention that the above mentioned quantum scsi drive hsieh zeno ccwf utexas edu
misc.forsale	dragon lair space ace arcade games for sale dragon lair complete laser disc motherboard joystick buttons graphics for arcade cabinet brick power supply space ace complete laser disc motherboard joystick buttons graphics for arcade cabinet brick power supply both space ace and dragon lair these games require sony laserdisc player the nice thing about this player that you can also watch normal laserdisc movies well have one which will sell for itself with purchase one complete system you buy both systems currently run this into entertainment center have housed computer case with with its own fan and power supply run the audio into stereo system and the laserdisc runs directly into the have made mount for the joysticks and the buttons first person who buys both games will get all otherwise you have yourself you would prefer have all housed normal arcade cabinet this can done well the graphics will nicely along the sides and front the cabinet everything works perfectly the laserdisc player has port which you can use develop your own multimedia type applications the laserdiscs have been stored safe place and have scratches them you are interested please email thanks soren soren burkhart purdue university yes well that just the sort robotics blink headed pig ignorance have zoron ecn purdue edu come expect from you non creative garbage john cleese monty python
misc.forsale	unix software for sale 
misc.forsale	amiga software for sale have the following amiga software for sale provideo gold amigavision plan spreadsheet still shrinkwrap superback hard drive backup certificate maker add the above and its yours email the address listed below thanx dennis neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil
misc.forsale	pin printer for sale have the star micronics pin printer for sale have used with the amiga and ibm computers and works great will throw cable and vinyl cover for plus shipping first email gets thanx dennis neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil have gone laser printer the only reason selling
misc.forsale	casio for sale have casio digital dairy organizer for sale the unit has with the expansion card slot very good condition asking plus shipping marc drmsr pitt edu
misc.forsale	borland software for sale cheap for sale turbo pascal all original manuals and disks obo shipping borland paradox with tall boxed manual set kallista desktop all original disks obo shipping borland paradox opened but never used all manuals disks obo shipping borland quattro pro dos all manuals disks obo shipping mail phone interested john hansen john hansen hansen logdis aflc mil working cse wsu bitnet suitable quote cse desire wright edu john hansen
misc.forsale	maxtor info needed was unix software for sale article colinm cunews colinm max carleton colin mcfadyen writes does anyone know what the jumpers should set the maxtor have that came off that would like use from the maxtor product specification and oem manual doc rev page power xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx uuuu the only option you should jumper the drive select shown above there also drive power option jumper elsewhere the drive board but the odds that having been unset are slim since the normally has only one you would jumper betwwwn select the first possible drive address the your second drive the then jumper between thad floryan thad btr com thad cup portal com thad netcom com
misc.forsale	foot switches for sale have foot switches for sale they great for guitar amps and keyboards each about diameter with cable like for both but make offer who knows jason settle down raise family join the pta buy some sensible shoes and chevrolet and party till you broke and they drag you away yankovic
misc.forsale	icom for sale looking sell icom and extras have the following battery headset vox unit cigarette adapter leather case wall charger battery also have one that needs new cell think its been while good condition has scratch the front that not visible when the leather case you are interested make offer rich newsgrazer nextstep news reader posting uqr eqm eqt uqt vye ven vql rtq rtq fet rtr fll vai det fqe
misc.forsale	items for sale must sell items for sale this package was bought throught award give away company attempted cancel order before received the package but was too late and the company refused take the package back for refund know the truth which would never get back but wish get money back close possible here the describtion the package nishika camera takes very good picture never been opended used came with wide angle flesh carring case film and instruction video has four lens and created effect regular film jewelry came with the package additional gift bahama vacation voucher the voucher good for two airfare freeport the users get special hotel rate per person per night meals ground transfer hotel tax not included las vegas reno orlando the voucher provides one airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals ground transfer hotel tax not included the voucher good for all locations but you can travel all places once cancun mexico the voucher provides one airfare and hotel accomodation for days nights meals and ground transfer hotel tax not included usual paid for the whole package try not cold blooded when you make your offer details would provided request wish sell the whole package once you are just looking for the vacation vouchers don care you sell the camera other for higher pric you are interested the camera you could treat the vacation vouchers gift you receive letter your mail box which says that you are selected part the sweeptake and you have least one out five awards trust you would get the exactly the same package did there only one award which will given away don bother even call them back you are really interested you could get from for cheaper price and you could receive the package within week waited three months get first and final packages also they would ask for your credit card number and you have pay for the interest the credit card company why spend more than you should when you could get them from for cheaper price you are interested please reply soon posible really wish get this over with make offer confortable with your offer would send the package the next day morning more details could given you wish please contact koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college mail address koutd hirama hiram edu
misc.forsale	cds for sale update cds for sale shipping included barcelona gold freddie mercury tevin campbell vogue inxs madonna eric clapton sarah brightman wayne world queen red hot chili peppers alice cooper eric clapton extreme pronograffitti saturday night live band live from new york harry connick blue light sold just open dances with woives sold handel classical sold please send your reply koutd hirama hiram edu package deal welcome douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	extended services for sale cheap for sale extended services extended database support extended networking support remote host support extended communication support plus copy the package brand new and uninstalled all manuals disks etc are included the package retails for with selling for something like that let both them for needs changed thus eliminating need for the package once bought interested please email mark teskey teskey plains nodak edu mark teskey internet teskey plains nodak edu stayin uucp uunet plains teskey alive signature virus copy into your signature join
misc.forsale	books for sale someone please buy these books not asking much just make offer and will probably take writing good software fortran graham smith the holt handbook kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide general chemistry principles modern applications petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send your offers via email chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	external for extremely cheap subject external for extremely cheap have brand new external floppy drive for still the box will sell for shipping firm which half the market price check page computer shopper apr issue the price there please let know you are interested ailin
misc.forsale	ext floppy drive for mac extremely cheap have brand new low density floppy drive for mac comes with brand new apple macintosh drive card that you can hook the drive the card allows you use dos formatted disks selling for abt retail price ailin buyers pay shipping
misc.forsale	unix sale unix unix unix unix unix unix unix forsale esix unix system release new user license system unlimited user license system user license system with dev kit unlimited user license system with dev kit the above systems include all the floppies tapes and instalation manuals they are new and have never been installed before market value for the above systems about you are interested please contact thanks mike mike budlanski canrem com canada remote systems toronto ontario
misc.forsale	jazz sale trade sell for then can really offer more than this point thanks jon
misc.forsale	classic cds sale hey can send mail you could you please resend your address lost for moscow thanks jon
misc.forsale	lots cds for sale have lot cds for sale prices are per and per single cds are noted and singles cds please include extra per for costs you want buy lot them then work out deal with the shipping costs type group title cds boys men motown philly cds music factory keep comin cds moby remixes cds quadrophonia schizophrenia cds swing out sister not gonna change cds recoil faith healer cds seal the beginning cds transvision vamp tranvision vamp cds music factory gonna make sweat cds nitzer ebb godhead cds roxette how you cds good stuff cds duran duran violence summer cds nitzer ebb cds vanessa williams running back you seal seal lfo frequencies morissey kill uncle underworld change the weather jody watley you wanna dance with dead alive fan the flame transvision vamp velveteen adam ant manners physique fine young cannibals the raw the remix black box dreamland civilles cole greatest remixes vol black box mixed scorpions the best rockers ballads underground dance jam harder dan church quote only god can make tree but took man box mail invent dwarf tossing socorro email dchurch nmt edu hobbs
misc.forsale	klipsch forte spkrs sale item klipsch forte speakers condition mint age months old price pair retail pair these speakers are perfect condition and used only audiophile system they are floor standing and come with all the original packagaing and literature they are also still under warranty you are interested have any questions please feel free mail andrew cmu edu call home thanks jon
misc.forsale	squirrel hill studio squirrel hill studio efficiency available mid may lease expiring perfect for someone looking for temporary housing someone who wants stay beyond july nice short walk cmu month plenty parking space street quiet neighborhood nearly new carpet call
misc.forsale	syquest internal drive with cartridges sale trade this drive less than one year old the cartridges have all been bought since then all excellent condition and still under warranty due change system use now need large contiguous drive offer includes sydos internal drive scsi adapter card and cables all original documentation software all original packaging cartridges totalling over bad sectors defects the installation was breeze clone will trade for something near ide sell for will also consider trading for pin simms walter seefeld the dawn early light jackson all know right starkville going reap what have sown qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	rasterops have video board for sale for macintosh bus machines other deal fell through asking rasterops this was incorrectly posted before make offers mail kohlhepp novell systems staff kohlhepp cae wisc edu computer aided engineering
misc.forsale	sci books for sale best offer would like sell the following sci books best offer you are interested please email offer and sure include shipping and handling prefer not ship cod but you purchase more will consider han solo and the lost legacy han solo revenge han solo stars end splinter the minds eye the empire strikes back star wars star trek the motion picture star trek wrath kahn the official star trek trivia book star trek reader vol star trek reader vol these are the book form the star trek reader vol iii original series star trek reader vol dune dune messiah children dune god emperor dune altered states alien close encounters the third kind dragonslayer the mists avalon the compleat book sowrds the lost swords space odyssey odyssey odyssey iii barlowes complete guide extratresstials again best offer and don shy thanks loyd seq uncwil edu amiga tower megs space vxl mhz mhz fpu megs bit ram supra modem sony monitor wangtek meg
misc.forsale	klipsch speakers like new shipping one pair oak finish with black grilles includes original packaging shipping firm walter seefeld the dawn early light jackson all know right starkville going reap what have sown qxr jackson brown
misc.forsale	turbografx system for sale take everything for turbografx base unit works like new with controller adapter antenna hookup games kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf will sell games separatley each please call mike day eves
misc.forsale	eric bosco where are you eric send email with your address lost reconsidered kevin
misc.forsale	typewriter computer interface have the following item for sale electronic typewriter panasonic with memory small lcd display selling bundled with panasonic computer interface rpk for this typewriter you can connect any parallel port sorry cable works perfect even windows tty printer great you need send letter with typewriter look stand alone mode has pitches and several effects like underline bold overstrike built dictionary and character word line correction asking for both the typewriter and the interface jorge lach sun microsystems computer corporation jorge lach east sun com east coast division chelmsford
misc.forsale	wanted summer housing seattle univ washington summer housing needed university washington seattle looking for place stay for the summer the university washington seattle where would doing internship any you from uofw seattle has got some kind space for summer sublet please send email call expect start internship the first week june koshy george george umass edu koshy george puffton village amherst
misc.forsale	casio key synth done little research and the price been asking was bit high casio synthesizer best offer features uses modulation create sounds programmable adsr envelopes for each dca amplitude dcw pitch like vcf and dco waveform like vco with steps for each preset sounds more memory more still ram cartridge stubby keys pitch bend wheel midi out ports includes all the manuals you could ever want adapter can use batteries line cord ram cartridge holds additional sounds throw bunch sheet music and play rock keyboards too christopher holmes not insert this email the ear canal terminals development group evil twin blew the world trade center data general corporation and all got was this stupid sig file westboro internet holmes mrx webo com
misc.forsale	windows new for sale have windows package for sale new stil shrink wrapped asking for will consider trade used floppy drive leave message interested
misc.forsale	slide projectors trade for photo equipments there are many people want buy kodak autofocus carousel projectors but don have lenses remote sell they prefer buy projector with all accessaries have post another news asking for lenses fit those kodak slide projectors willing give away singer caramate singer caramete built unremovable lens built casette player speaker new bulb try trade for kodak projector lenses each projector viewer will equal trade for kodak projector lenses depend the focal length will pay for the shipping for singer projector viewer since don need those singer projectors you have some slr system you don need willing the trade well yuesea
misc.forsale	oscilloscope for sale probes have tektronix mhz scope for sale nice simple unit learn used while was school you want one play with home this easy and inexpensive has nice handle and quite lightweight and easy move around will consider selling the probes seperately for they are probes suitable for this type scope the probes are not included the price for the scope you need more technical info you will have come look not scope expert and what have said all know chris
misc.forsale	camcorder sony forsale years old model ccd zoom everything works perfectly uses tapes not that was not around years ago plus shipping best offer gregg weber let open and bright like the sky gregg netcom com without taking sides with clouds concepts kun mkhyen klong chen
misc.forsale	cpu chip for sale article qoby utdallas edu goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes cpu chip for sale shipping you like pay for the please refer selling for that cpu correct may high now that amd has started selling clones indeed word intel lawsuit against amd was absolutely thrown out court monday amd said they would shipping chips with the intel instruction set next week chip prices are going through the floor mark words regards gordon waters clyde gordon bme georgia institute technology atlanta out the mountain despair can hew the stone hope mlk uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	complete system for sale mhz dtk motherboard intel microprocessor internal cache megs ram meg harddrive ide controller meg floppy drive meg floppy drive serial ports parallel port samsung vga monitor vga graphics card key keyboard baud internal modem dos procomm plus ver norton utilities ver other varius utilities upgrading and need sell the system reliable and ready never had any problems with asking you interested please respond either mail phone tae zeus tamu edu thanks andrew
misc.forsale	pin printer for sale well have pin printer which alps allegro both fast printer with and very sophisticated design has straight paper path and the capability auto forwarding sheets tear off and then back big paper saver you never have waste sheets get current print out can also handle single sheets without removing the formfeed and has sophisticated preferences options you can interactively program all the preferences control the printer and get printed feedback without ever using computer you get prompts and menus pick your current setup and default set this was the top the line dot matrix when bought three years ago for also epson compatible besides own modes and comes with ibm driver software which never used since own amiga has card slot for upgrading memory fonts let for including shipping prepaid cod orders must pay all shipping and cod costs adisak pochanayon also light gun and uforce controller for nintendo but with driver software use them the amiga the light gun fully remote wires best offer over less than cost and they are both brand new cut here jeez never fails get the tub and there rub the lamp the genie from aladdin pochanay cae wisc edu eddie adisak pochanayon check out all silverfox software releases your amiga entertainment cut here
misc.forsale	raichle ski boots for sale size also have pair size raichle flexon comps these boots are black and yellow they are good condition would like around for them also but feel free make offer please reply crane coral bucknell edu thanks curt
misc.forsale	roland juno synthesizer uniden radar detector sale roland juno synthesizer excellent condition great fat analog sound used the song jump van halen best offer uniden radar detector excellent condition don caught the cops best offer smaller than credit card compact for the keyboard email greg park dartmouth edu for the radar email rich lee dartmouth edu ciao
misc.forsale	win dos misc software help make money for new modem takes all shipping not included price all original documentation disks are include some software unregistered others will have letter for transfer ownership will sell software seperately purchase must greater than purchases over get choice two software selections with footnote windows version dos version registered letter transfer unregistered special offer windows windows resource kit bound norton desktop for windows excel gateway version all docs disks this the real thing only shipped with computer microcourier communucations software entertainment pack microprose gunship vga only links pro includes bountiful golf course wing commander vengeance the kilrathi strike eagle risk ega easyflow brand new never used quicken franklin language master not spell checker but dictionary tsr that pops for any dos app each word has direct link the thesaurus ibm dos total discount your cost call michael any day between est leave mail thanks vbreader bush presidency aborted recovery hopeful
misc.forsale	for sale following are for sale each cost except otherwise indicated which includes shipping and handling achtung baby joshua tree the immaculate collection madonna love hurts cher garth brooks garth brooks red hot chilli peppers ooooohhhhh tlc light and shadows wilson used only once never used most them are still shrink wraps please email kgc woods ulowell edu
misc.forsale	computers for sale and amiga its time for little house cleaning after upgrade have the following for sale leading technology partner sytsem includes mhz intel cpu ide drive brand new canabalized from new system and floppies meg ram vga congroller dos hard drive need get for system style logitech serial trackman with latest drivers amiga with roms installed and video ram and addon ram clone ram and clock roctec addon disk ide disk controller includes scsi option quantum scsi drive with lots software simm installed roctec amiga dos icd flicker fixer asking for system will part out the amiga make offer amiga software cando textcraft plus tetris welltris for both sword sodam qix carmen sandiego crossword construction kit canadian prototype replicas rom fast file system hypermedia rom containing fred fish disks includes registration card low cost upgrades amiga hardware reference man amiga vga monitor cable two joysticks each prices not include shipping contact rich garrett email richg sequent com home work ooo rich garrett richg sequent com work
misc.forsale	mives sale update vhs movie for sale kevin costner dances withs wolves just open and was used once best offer buyer will have pay shipping for shipping let know you are interested and send your offer this mail address koutd hirama hiram edu thanks douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	nubus ntsc genlock card sale computer friends nubus card good for doing graphics overlays your videos etc with apple bit vid card without wont sell vid card separately ups pay shipping cheers mike
misc.forsale	thule roof rack with bike accessories take all for sale thule car rack with bike holder accessories comes with nissan pathfinder brackets but you can buy the appropriate ones for your car cheap looking for for everything live the bethesda area thanks for your interest james olds neural systems section domain olds helix nih gov ninds nih bethesda usa
misc.forsale	update hard drive vga etc article crossposted from misc forsale computers clone author was mark wilson posted fri apr gmt update for sale items all plus shipping core hard drive model works fine full height reduced mfm controller for the above would like sell with above have asking price but will sell with above for combined style case process selling vga card now asking max version now asking please email mark ocsmd ocs com use phone below mark mark wilson online computer systems try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with signature mean mark wilson online computer systems try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with signature mean
misc.forsale	smartcam version for sale and smartcam version for sale purchased august latest version also willing sell hard drive multi scan monitor paid for software and for computer also includes maintanence contract that can updated every year for apx per year make offer call ask for terry
misc.forsale	calculator for greetings forsale comes with case manuals excellent condition asking for interested please mail today
misc.forsale	house for sale mercerville posting this for friend please not respond thanks house for sale brockton road mercerville new jersey description beautiful bedroom bath cape cod located large tastefully landscaped corner with fenced lot this home features eat kitchen with built corner china closet large living room wall wall carpeting hardwood floors new ceramic tile foyer and freshly painted neutral tone decor this home includes new central air and heating new roof new water heater aluminum siding storm windows and doors and rockwell insulation all exterior walls also features new partially finished basement with outside entrance and new duro shed lots storage space convenient extras dishwasher washer and dryer ceiling fans and window treatments call for appointment open house sunday april call for directions
misc.forsale	moving sale reduced prices have list things forsale behalf brother who moving moved already offer black and decker duster plus portable hand vaccum purchased for dual cassette portable player band graphics equalizer high speed dubing duo tape tape deck seems have lost treble sound but bet fixable purchased for monolux zoom microscope magnification made japan includes case and accessories purchased for sunbeam hair dryer the dryer you put your head under into you know the ones you see the salons don ask why bro had purchased for everylast speed bag all leather brand new never used osterizer pusle matic blender with speeds and cookbook years old purchased for binolux binoculars extra wide angle yds with case very new proctor and silex spray steam and dry iron very new any questions contact thru mail and will reply expeditously and always are not included please consider this and lastly very reasonable very reasonable thanks john
misc.forsale	mac classic mac classic for sale year old excellent condition includes dustcovers freeware shareware including many fonts email call bay area forman ide com things that are real are given and received sun ide forman silence
misc.forsale	wanted games player more well the title says all looking buy cheap used gmaes which have more player support simultaneous please email all offers with price rohit
misc.forsale	moving sale reduced prices have list things forsale behalf brother who moving moved already offer black and decker duster plus portable hand vaccum purchased for dual cassette portable player band graphics equalizer high speed dubing duo tape tape deck seems have lost treble sound but bet fixable purchased for monolux zoom microscope magnification made japan includes case and accessories purchased for sunbeam hair dryer the dryer you put your head under into you know the ones you see the salons don ask why bro had purchased for everylast speed bag all leather brand new never used osterizer pusle matic blender with speeds and cookbook years old purchased for binolux binoculars extra wide angle yds with case very new proctor and silex spray steam and dry iron very new any questions contact thru mail and will reply expeditously and always are not included please consider this and lastly very reasonable very reasonable thanks john
misc.forsale	case deal lemon all since all you could also seller well buyer like bring this issue for discussion what would the best solution case deal became lemon understand most people selling things over the net not grant warranty such situation that the seller did not state whether warranty would granted not and the item received out order the seller insisted that was good condition when sent and would just return half ofthe amount that paid send the item back him and after sured bad this reasonable basically would like believe the seller tells the truth also positively say that not done anything wrong which might cause the failure the thing assumption here everyone honest rule out the possibility that either one the two parties both are liars would like hear your opinion either here directly respond mail address know there such risk that you could lose money but how can make enjoyable most people and not wasting the bandwidth chein
misc.forsale	power supplies two research power supplies series currently wired for vac control lines sense off pwr fail high low margin and current monitor the list price from research each for qty asking for the pair steve glicker austin texas steve titan tsd arlut utexas edu
misc.forsale	expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts jeff later writes motorola expo vhf watt chan new would like best offer sure that the motorola worth but this kind thing has always mystified the price very good new dual band fully synthasized yes yes know motorola hts are bullet proof unbreakable plutonium based indestructable you can drive tank over them and they still work but just how often does that come why are hams willing and they are spend the price synthaszied dual bander for channel xtal rig note this not flame said sure this good deal for this rig just amazed that good deal would have guessed that channel xtal rig could never worth much dual bander ham matter how durable just shows you how wrong can mike pdy these are opinions only
misc.forsale	books for sale cheap someone please buy these books not asking much just make offer and will probably take calculus analytic geometry authur simon copyright date below avg condition but still readable writing good software fortran graham smith the holt handbook kirszner mandell copyright page writing guide algebra trigonometry problem solving approach edition flemming and varberg very good condition general chemistry principles modern applications petrucci fourth edition big book very good condition solutions manual for chemistry book paperback study guide for chemistry book paperback send your offers via email chopin udel edu sam chopin udel edu
misc.forsale	itproper net etiquette advertise company junk mail list article apr leland stanford edu thomper leland stanford edu dale buford thompson writes article jccg tsoft net you write stuff deleted company maintains mailing list which regularly rented for more stuff deleted ted impression that net etiquette does not allow companies use the net directly advertise their products addition improper etiquette this product mailing list used for generating junk mail correct assuming this improper and what can done penalize such improper use dale thompson well dale say offhand keel hauling would work pretty well haven had good keel hauling long time sorry came conversation yesterday and well just love that phrase maybe just ask for folks flood the guys mailbox with the faq for net etiquitte sort poetic justice for all the junk mail was trying generate anyway tom tom testagrossa mail ttesta kali enet dec com mail clarendon apt fitchburg phone work voicemail home ask about guitars
misc.forsale	for sale sega genesis system roommate selling sega genesis system with sonic very nice condition for obo please respond via email pathall arizona edu alternate email addresses are phall noao edu and moe ccit arizona edu thanks pat hall
misc.forsale	mazda pickup college pro student painters look mazda pickup rebuilt engine miles new transmission speed miles new brakes new brake calipers brand new clutch only miles professional ladder racks can hold ladders cylinder gets miles the gallon fog lights tach runs great all inquires should write back call will have saturday afternoon and sunday you would like take look phone your are painting this summer this excellent vehicle use andy feigin prodigy rwbp
misc.forsale	game boy games wanted looking for some game boy games please mail with your list and offers thanks also you have game boy you want get rid please tell chris
misc.forsale	moving sale moving sale must sell before may futon high end oak queen like new computer desk roll top locks securely like new color perfect cond great for bedroom sold coffee tables dresser lamps make offer ask for esther eve day
misc.forsale	warriors tickets for sale warriors tickets for sale have tickets that can use last pair this year section row seats day date opponent time wed sacremento price cost call email you are interested these tickets lorne johnson lorne sun com
misc.forsale	sony receiver and ten disc changer for sale for sale str audio receiver watts per channel dolby surround sound with pro logic learning programmable remote watts per channel for surround sound supports dual room link control hear another source different room index filing all radio stations band equilizer with real time analyzer need get for this unit best offer cdp sony ten disc changer ten disc cartridge custom file your favorite program title volume for each disc disc memory remote control fixed and variable volume outputs optical output oversampling rate firm purchased these items about months ago and need sell them now buy house both units are immaculate shape and are priced move steven walsh walshs uwp edu
misc.forsale	indiana jones hint book wanted looking for hint book for indiana jones and the last crusade the game for the ibm mail call and ask for orion you don have the hint book but know how answer these questions plao how you beat biff how you open the valt door how you knock out the security system
misc.forsale	car stereo stolen had the front panel car stereo stolen this weekend need buy the front panel sony car stereo any chance anyone has had the body sony stolen and has otherwise useless front panel would love buy from you you know anyone who had removeable front panel car stereo stolen from them could you please forward this message them thanks kris was understanding that the purpose those removeable front panels were make the radio useless and thus discourage theft that the cover were removed the owner and taken along whenever the car was left those covers were sold for anything remarkably less than the radio originally costs even sold all then the above discouragement wouldn great personally would unhappy bought radio like that thinking that removing the cover greatly depreciated the radio value and the covers were sold the company other legitimate source cheaply you cut here you ruin your monitor kenneth ray expert someone who knows more and more crc ocis about less and less and finally rice university knows everything about nothing
misc.forsale	looking for person vhs for sale looking for person who made offer for five vhs movies was not able save the mail address this person has been week since made the deal please reply the five movies are basic instinct born the forth july backdraft the prince tides presumed innocent douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	home base and car units motorola beeper for sale uniden channel transceiver model pro this home base unit with connectors for external speaker and speaker internal speaker chanel button anl selector buttons volume squelch gain tone and mic gain controls comes with mic side mount for mic measures plugs into black like new actually brand new asking shipping included midland international model chanel car unit this one well used black silver front comes with mic power cord for cigarette lighter socket gutter mount antena also included easy install and remove asking shipping included both for including shipping the uniden alone about kmart these two will work nicely together have one the garage and one your truck motorola beeper can quite figure out what the model number cost buy from usamobile don use this more
misc.forsale	the abyss laserdisc article crossposted from temple forsale author was ray lauff ray astro ocis temple edu posted wed apr gmt regular cbs fox release the wide screen edition the movie the abyss for sale asking including postage want purchase the new director cut and would like unload this laserdisc possible two discs unopened minutes letterbox email interested ray astro ocis temple edu ray ray lauff temple university computer services ray lauff astro temple edu ray lauff temple university computer services ray lauff astro temple edu
misc.forsale	photo stuff forsale time clear out some miscellaneous lenses cameras and photo stuff that not being used some are gems some are mundane minolta lens for maxxum cameras new lens but guess best call demo since did not get the literature box warranty cards vivitar converter for nikon lenses pretty cute flip back tang will work with all manual focus nikon lenses and bodies will even couple and double non lens body pentax screwmount lens well actually super takumar which what they all were back then very mint condition nice hard case for this lens more alpex lens beautifully made all metal construction with fine optics minolta mount another hard case that fits this with strap can added call more vivitar flash the one that made vivitar famous until the eclipsed tilt head removable sensor variable auto exposure universal roamer folding old bellows camera with leather case uses film lens kinda cool articulated shutter release decent shape weston lightmeter nothin super fancy but works well and good cross check built meters with case and strap and finally the gems pentax auto camera with lens this the little and mean tiny slr that pentax made has interchangeable lenses but try and find the zoom true through the lens viewing with split image focus and completely auto exposure olympus rangefinder camera really cute little camera with lens with built manual auto exposure self timer etc think this was the predecessor the and nearly all metal won mind holding onto this one doesn sell olympus with flash shoe leatherette case zuiko lens and tokina super dispersion lens these are all very nice mint condition except for one little ding the body near the film advance lever lenses are perfect and the tokina very compact and sharp lens for the set that clean out some the stuff feel free offer this stuff although the cheaper stuff priced cover hassle shipping for more details call email alan peterman work qiclab scn rain com odd how get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
misc.forsale	software forsale lots software publishing superbase windows ocr system readright for windows ocr system readright for dos unregistered zortech bit compiler with multiscope windows debugger whitewater resource toolkit library source code glockenspiel imagesoft commonview windows applications framework for borland spontaneous assembly library with source code microsoft macro assembly microsoft windows sdk documentation microsoft foxpro wordperfect developer toolkit kedwell software databoss code generator kedwell installboss installation generator liant software views windows application framework with source code ibm developer toolkit cbtree dos windows library with source code symantec timeline for windows timeslip timesheet professional for windows many more software books available price negotiable
misc.forsale	okidata printer for sale fellow netters have okidata printer would like sell description follows okidata printer including cables for both ibm compatibles centronics parallel and commodore round also includes power cable manual and handful computer paper get you started this pin printer recently cleaned the printhead and installed new ribbon print sample can provided upon request this very dependable printer never jams does weird things have used with commodore for about years and now using with use mainly wordperfect see next post for which got driver charge that directly supports the okidata epson mode when got the printer was selling for around new got mine from tenex brand new for christmas present would like get about for you are interested all please give ring mail and make offer kevin harter
misc.forsale	auction marvel valiant image dark horse etc auctioning off the following comics these minimum bids are set below what would normally sell them for make offer and will accept the highest bid after the auction has been completed title minimum current alpha flight jim lee first work marvel aliens app aliens comics prnt may krism twice amazing spider man intro new green goblin amazing spider man appearance hobgoblin archer and armstrong frank miller smith layton avengers appearance factor bloodshot chromium cover bwsmith cover poster daredevil frank miller art begins dark horse presents app concrete printing detective azrael appears intro cypher harbinger appearance corps matthey sold corps incredible hulk app grey hulk since incredible hulk mcfarlane issue incredible hulk grey hulk series begins incredible hulk dale keown art hulk incredible hulk all new hulk prnt keown marvel comics presents wolverine silver surfer maxx limited ashcan copies exist blue cover brentb twice signed advance copy exist new mutants mcfarlane cover app cable cameo new mutants app force new mutants annual liefeld art new mutants omega men appearance lobo omega men full lobo story power man iron fist appearance sabretooth appearance sabretooth simpsons comics and stories polybagged special spectacular spider man app new hobgoblin star trek the next generation feb mini star trek the next generation oct comics trianglehead special limited edition autogrphed web spider man hobgoblin wolverine appear web spider man origin rose hobgoblin appears wolverine before claws battle with sabretooth wolverine sabretooth claims wolverine dad wolverine sabretooth proven not his dad wolverine sabretooth wolverine saga concludes wolverine mini series miller art wonder woman return animal man force signed liefeld bagged force card force signed liefeld bagged shatterstar card force signed liefeld bagged deadpool card force signed liefeld bagged sunspot gideon all comics are near mint mint condition are bagged shiny polypropylene bags and backed with white acid free boards shipping for one book for more than one book free you order large enough amount stuff willing haggle have thousands and thousands other comics please let know what you been looking for and maybe can help some titles have posted here don list every issue have that title tried save space geoffrey mason jrm elm circa ufl edu department psychology mason webb psych ufl edu university florida prothan maple circa ufl edu
misc.forsale	few cds for sale brand new each add for postage class that makes all these discs are still shrink wrapped kathleen battle wynton marsalis baroque duet sony classical david sanborn upfront elektra kenny live arista jimmy buffett songs you know heart greatest hits mca records billy ray cyrus some gave all mercury vogue funky divas eastwest records
misc.forsale	not all deals are bad fellow netters just wanted let you know that there are few honest and good people out there even outside iowa sorry anyone thinks that wasting space but thought you might want some relief from the and thief posts not that think shouldn hear about the bad deals but would nice hear some good news once while after seeing his post one the for sale groups mailed mark miller request for his copy wordperfect for dos suggested price his but when phoned him quoted plus shipping that sounded more than fair told him that would send him check the next day imagine surprise when logged into account the following day and found message from him saying that had already been sold after had just mailed the money order after another mail message him apologized and assured that was mistake was the one who was holding for sent the package soon got the money along with letter stating transfer license this wasn good enough for wordperfect asked him fill out one their forms problem thought took three times get the right address fault anyway mailed the form for signature and included workbook that had idea was included the deal again apologized for not sending before now have the world best word processor and renewed hope the world that there are few good ones left recoend that you ever see that mark selling anything thatat you may want give him call had the choice would purchase all software from him bravo miller kevin harter
misc.forsale	car stereo stolen article rice edu xray rice edu kenneth dwayne ray writes had the front panel car stereo stolen this weekend need buy the front panel sony car stereo was understanding that the purpose those removeable front panels were make the radio useless and thus discourage theft that the cover were removed the owner and taken along whenever the car was left those covers were sold for anything remarkably less than the radio originally costs even sold all then the above discouragement wouldn great personally would unhappy bought radio like that thinking that removing the cover greatly depreciated the radio value and the covers were sold the company other legitimate source cheaply the front covers should available from sony check with local car stereo shop you will probably definitely have provide the units serial number and hopefully you had registered the warranty card don know the cost but replacements have available people who damage the face cover stands reason that can replaced deterring theft when worked for stereo shop referred the customer sony number would not sell the face nor did have them available most people who came asking for the face cover pullout sleave for that matter would look very disheartened find that they acquired deck they couldn use theft occurs with these decks notify sony serial numbers catch theives just thought michael
misc.forsale	itproper net etiquette advertise company junk mail list not only improper etiquette and illegal but the people who are responsible for junk mailings are evil ahhh ive always wanted get that off chest
misc.forsale	aviation headset for sale for sale david clark aviation headset excellent condition not even scratch original packaging discover for yourself why the continues the favorite headset thousands pilots was the first headset have the advanced amplified electret microphone with frequency response specifically designed match the human voice also includes durable universal boom assembly and noise reduction rating nrr weighs includes telex push talk switch asking shipping negotiable for more information respond afhetzel netcom com andrew andrew hetzel complete less work before than afhetzel netcom com most people all day ann arbor usa
misc.forsale	vax pricing hello all goucher college will soon retiring microvax world case hard drives port maybe system memory any idea how much can expect get for this machine the open market please reply privately tim marshall goucher ffv ampr org thanks advance tim marshall associate director academic computing goucher college baltimore all opinions are mine alone documentation manual which tells you how use program system utility one version ago and which now unsupported
misc.forsale	ibm games for sale would like sell some software shipping per order more games the continental canada contact for shipping other locations contraption zack perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging puzzle game with great animated graphics your tools for fixing manufacturing plant are hidden throughout the levels and you must solve puzzles get the tools and then use the tools fix the machines the levels are huge and span many screens the graphics are cartoony and humorous color vga mcga adlib soundblaster roland legend kyrandia perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging adventure where you are the unknowing heir the throne the kingdom kyrandia evil jester has murdered your parents the king and queen and attempted take control the kingdom only thwarted spell cast upon him your grandfather and three other magic users you must travel find each the magic users gain use amulet that will help you defeat the jester beautiful graphics and great soundtrack vga mcga adlib sound blaster soundblaster pro lapc spirit excalibur virgin mastertronic good condition all docs disks packaging fantasy game combining role playing adventure and combat simulation you are the heir the throne britain after arthur has died you must unite the land under your rule and then defend against invading army from the north ega tandy mcga vga sound cards loom perfect condition unregistered all docs disks packaging received computer gaming world award for artistic achievement adventure game where you play the role young weaver musical spells you must save your fellow weavers from oblivion traveling through the land casting spells learning new spells befriending people you meet and foiling evil plot all point and click typing every action the game involves casting your musical spells vga ega cga mcga tandy adlib cms sound dark seed perfect condition used very little unregistered all docs disks packaging adventure based the surrealistic and macabre artwork giger the inspiration for alien alien iii and poltergeist you have just bought old victorian house bargain secluded town you find that there portal dark sinister world your house and plot against the world you know you must save yourself and your world from horrible fate gorgeous and gory high resolution graphics vga adlib soundblaster conquest japan impressions brand new used only once unregistered all docs disks packaging simulation samurai conquest you play the role japanese daimyo lord you control five cities japan main island honshu each provides money for you buy armies with which you must conquer your enemy battles are fought with impressions miniature system you watch the individual samurai mounted samurai spearmen archers and arquebusiers vga adlib
misc.forsale	new hard drive sale seagate scsi hard drive brand new with full factory warranty access time mtbf only leave mail interested
misc.forsale	technical books for sale unix netwk repost friends and have buch books for sale they are not being used due change job loss interest etc rather than letting them gather dust would like pass them others who may use them course price topics include other programming languages unix dos windows other operating system topics general motif olit xwin networking and digital signal processing computer graphics microprocessors and computer architecture math software engineering algorithms software testing databases expert systems the list long and rather than posting here will email request going keep the list updated and will respond all requests lucky you are interested drop line alavi ssa unity ncsu edu
misc.forsale	nikon and lens forsale nikon with nikkor and accessories for sale bought this camera hong kong two years ago and everything has been looked after very well now selling some more gear finance next big film project asking for package bargains
misc.forsale	nitendo game wanted one those uncles that try please nephews whenever possible they have asked find them some nitendo games not for the super nitendo for whatever model came prior that since they are overseas will first ask them they already have the games you would have offer please send list whatever and the price you are asking can send nephews and find out what they have and what they want bare with will respond but will take while thanks walter walter psg com please respond directly portland oregon usa walter morales internet walter rain com pop
misc.forsale	cds for have the following cds for sale for each plus postage all cds are perfect condition michael bolton time love tenderness paula abdul forever your girl taylor dayne tell heart lionel richie the composer elvis presley number one hits bobby vinton greatest hits super hits the includes yellow river rose garden for the good times help make through the night bojangles sweet mary one toke over the line put your hand hand stay awhile woodstock silver bird ain got time anymore new fashioned love songs import includes extended remixes and dance mixes for the following know you were waiting aretha franklin george michael walk like egyptian live mental anything this love alison moyet alright without you journey the rain oran jones dreams reo speedwagon shake you down gregory abbott fight for ourselves spandau ballet between two fires paul young falling love miami sound machine heartache away don johnson
misc.forsale	paintball gun forsale paintball gun for sale tippman great condition micro honed barrel barrel squeegie barrel round sight feeder with elbow constant air tank with valve protector and buttplate shoulder strap bushnell sportview scope round ammo box with flip top lid barrel plug instruction manual allen wrenches contact zborowsk spot colorado edu and make offer
misc.forsale	victoria hotel room nights victoria hotel reserv nights mid week sun thurs hotel reservation available for victoria canada nights days for expires june this letter credit fully transferrable issued hotelco for hotel room any number available hotels victoria canada hotelco reputable hotel booking company that provides hotel stays low prices this letter credit normally works for weekends too but all weekends are booked solid for the summer check with hotelco directly for available dates one its member hotels use this letter credit before june hotelco can reached bothell during regular business hours then you find acceptable reservation date contact for this letter credit roger bacalzo rbacalzo sierra com home work roger bacalzo sierra geophysics kirkland way ext kirkland rbacalzo sibu sierra com
misc.forsale	ami pro for sale goyal utdallas edu mohit goyal writes lotus ami pro please reply interested thank you you could get new for the phone club the address buyer club montvale ave stoneham don work for them just thought was too good deal pass btw recived mine days before they said would arrive morgan bullard coewl cen uiuc edu mjbb uxa cso uiuc edu
misc.forsale	townhome for sale wheaton townhome for sale wheaton briarcliffe lakes wheaton just north butterfield road call and ask for harriet bode prudential realty description very neat well cared for low maintenance starter coach home very fine condition located cul sac just move rooms eat kitchen large master bedroom spare bedroom dining room living room utility room baths appliances stove gas refrigerator and dish washer garage opener washer and dryer garbage disposal gas water heater years old central with digital thermostat highlights electric fire place living room sliding glass doors which open patio with secluded back yard area plenty storage space with patio storage closet and storage closet garage new ceiling fan dining room completely remodeled bathroom new wallpaper shower door shower tile etc mini blinds for all windows newer carpets beige about years old one car garage and plenty guest parking association fees which includes the following lawn maintenance snow removal all exterior building maintenance taxes asking price home
misc.forsale	kiev medium format camera cheaper prices agree own one aside from the shutter built like little tank very good camera your price sounds reasonable too new paid for kiev camera kit good luck thomas helke egret wet uucp
misc.forsale	labtec speaker for sale anybody interested buying labtec speaker labtec amplified stereo speaker system built amplifier volt input works with without batteries individual volume controls treble boost switch great for medium quality sound adlib soundblaster walkman for included shipping mail richard susanto aduh carson washington edu
misc.forsale	commodoree have wonderful commodore for sale also included disk drive color moniter power supply great shape software joysticks baud modems old but useable contact doug via dlg pro
misc.forsale	for sale zenith motherboard the following posted for friend send replies the address the end the post please attention zenith owners upgrade your mhz class machine performance with genuine zenith motherboard for clone price motherboard and card pop right your case while keeping your existing video and disk controllers zenith motherboard featuring layer posted write cache using sram dram included accepts motherboard further ram upgrades available via superslots running memory bus speeds expansion slots feature zenith bit superslots autodetects bit adapters latest rev setup monitor roms two serial ports one parallel port secondary fan for improved system cooling user guide maintenance guide and diagnostics disk included includes insurance replies stann aol com replies will forwarded thanks brian brian shapiro systems support specialist ohio university athens ohio shapiro oucsace ohiou edu shapirob ouaccvma bitnet
misc.forsale	star trek ornament hey have some star trek christmas ornaments for sale they are the the hallmark shuttle craft galileo they went for during christmas willing sell for that price shipping you are interested and have some questions please reply give call dang
misc.forsale	nash metropolitan forsale little nash has sat for about year had been running but now must move long distance and there are too many things carry with here are the details the car hardtop exterior condition rocker panels rusted out weld points rust typical spots like door hinge mounting points back battery box etc missing front bumper front pan dented one weld popped front this for the most part solid restorable automobile interior condition missing original steering wheel has one the smaller aftermarket wheels seats need reupholstered general fair condition mechanical condition had been running but now does not want start needs new rings which have also have extra parts such complete long block extra steering shaft etc for car that has not been touched since solid shape will obviously need some work but will make good project price well this tough one would like get around but will consider any serious offers individuals willing come and get you have things trade such tools toys cameras comics cards etc anything easily movable florida may consider that well hit mail address ellis osu edu home leave message thanks mike
misc.forsale	repost tape drives for sale acorn software inc has tape drives currently used vms system for sale these are all scsi tape drives and are working condition wangdat wangdat compression exabyte plus shipping and cod certified checks only please these units are sold and without warrantee contact you interested dick munroe internet munroe dmc com doyle munroe consultants inc uucp uunet thehulk munroe cox office hudson fax get connected send mail info dmc com find out about dmconnection
misc.forsale	sony mhc bookshelf stereo system forsale sony mhc bookshelf stereo system months old player tape decks digital graphic equilizer tuner speakers watts channel top the line sony bookshelf system includes amazing remote that actually splits into two everything can done from the remote remote has digital display has the highest quality sound amazing bass not one scratch system very well taken care originally purchased for tax need cash and looking get around for since really need the money will sell the person who gives the highest offer and will accept the best offer not buyer pays insured shipping reply soon intereseted thanks
misc.forsale	bally holiday health club lifetime memership article visgraph uucp forrie visgraph uucp forrest aldrich writes for sale life time membership the ballys holiday fitness club the original fee paid for this was over and sell for the membership fully transferrable via proper paperwork does include raquetball good espree what the annual fee thanks john
misc.forsale	for sale cannondale road bike dura ace cannondale road bike bright blue color dura ace speed not sti could easily converted though spoke wheelset clinchers complete bike best offer all offers will considered this bike has desperate times call for desperate measures will consider parting out write for details jay ritchie jbr msstate edu
misc.forsale	for sale apple iigs apple iigs imagewriter color printer color rgb monitor drive drive keyboard mouse lots disks some applications most manuals and utmost gratification for only
misc.forsale	laptop cards laptop connectivity cards part desc remote emulation card for toshiba laptop computer part desc easytalk dedicated internal modem with mnp level for toshiba part desc easytalk internal ethernet card for toshiba laptop expansion slot part desc easytalk terminal emulation for toshiba laptop expansion slot interested all individual parts send email rotella zmax com
misc.forsale	sams comics for sale auction instead holding auction have decided compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices can give not negotiable you would like purchase comic group simply email with the title and issue you want the price for each issue shown beside each comic first come first served there more bidding meet price and yours can reached this email address chopin udel edu ravel udel edu bach udel edu brahms udel edu more haggling about the price lots comics for look list for all those who have bought comics from thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted books were graded mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not here the list incredible hulk another hulk captain marvel double size issue silver surfer thor coastal avengers thing werewolf night copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series johnny blaze copies origin dream each ghost rider new series print green glow dark cover copy print gold cover glow cover web spiderman copies each hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes spiderman copies each amazing spiderman octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each wolverine copy left new warriors gold cover darkhawk superman man steel superman new copies each adventures superman annual superman annual armegedon tie action comics avengers west coast hawkeye agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie captain america hulk hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot ninja turtles the comet legend the shield justice society america official movie mag from turtles movie sealed jelloman comic robin copies poster print copies each guardians the galaxy copies each copies each superman amazing spiderman oversized issue from darkhawk copies each copies each thor juggernaut ghost rider thor loki copies each new thor annual what alpha flight fant new mutants last issue look force print copies each print gold cover flash new annual men new all covers each but for magneto foldout cover uncanny men copies each sold copy left lee reg artist copy left print gold print defenders hulk sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin rage factor quasar green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed white bag copies each force bagged cable card bagged shatterstar card nfl superpro strange hawkworld annual print armegedon tie hawk dove annual armegedon tie justice league america annual armegedon tie send all bids and comments chopin udel edu thanks sam the comic book collector college electrical engineering university delaware
misc.forsale	robotics modem reply haljordan delphi com call robotics dual standard bis baud hst price
misc.forsale	airline tickets hare tuscon two round trip tickets hare tuscon american airlines good thru november reasonable offer refused but lets start for both paid hopefully someone can use these have use for them and don know way get moneys worth without going tuscon again mail only this time tripper cbnewsk att com now why would butler services have anything with warped ramblings crabby old fart mechanical pcb designer buku cad background still working bscs looking for work wants take shot asic layout tripp tripper cbnewsk att com
misc.forsale	printing jack previdi psilink com writes reply dorothy heydt reminding that advertising not done internet matter fact does make difference almost half million new users joined the internet last year many them are commercial businesses the ban commercial use internet more jack there difference between using the network for commercial purposes and advertising newsgroups business communication okay advertising hundreds thousands users around the planet who have desire receive advertising not okay those who pay for internet access are constrained only our innate good taste and have administrator guide suspect that site which generated large volume material not anybody good taste would find itself getting lot attention didn want you may belong the public library but that doesn mean you can deface the books disorder the stacks disturb the other patrons you constrained the same rules that the rest the users many academic and military who get irritable about network for which they pay with tax and grant money carrying private business advertising follow there are secret masters here just like everywhere else they not obvious the ones prodigy but they here doubt some point the internet like everything else will become grotty enough carry advertising that time hope confined its own newsgroups and not discussion groups like misc writing elizabeth willey
misc.forsale	sams comic sale low prices read instead holding auction have decided compute prices for each comic after many suggestions these are the most reasonable prices can give not negotiable you would like purchase comic group simply email with the title and issue you want the price for each issue shown beside each comic first come first served there more bidding meet price and yours can reached this email address chopin udel edu ravel udel edu bach udel edu brahms udel edu more haggling about the price lots comics for look list shipping for comics for more than the price will determined the volume the purchase may have use big heavy box for large orders which costs more mail for all those who have bought comics from thanks all comics are near mint unless otherwise noted books were graded mile high comics and other comic professional collectors not here the list incredible hulk another hulk captain marvel double size issue silver surfer thor coastal avengers thing werewolf night copy punisher punisher war journal ghost rider ghost rider punisher armory original ghost rider rides again reprint ghost rider old series johnny blaze copies origin dream each ghost rider new series print green glow dark cover copy print gold cover glow cover web spiderman copies each hulk copy left spiderhulk copy left deadly foes spiderman copies each amazing spiderman octopus special nacme issue amazing spiderman doom copy left spiderman silver not bagged copies each wolverine copy left new warriors gold cover darkhawk superman man steel superman new copies each adventures superman annual superman annual armegedon tie action comics avengers west coast hawkeye agent batman robin returns annual armegedon tie captain america hulk hulk armegedon foolkiller infinity gauntlet double dragon deathlok series transformers last issue wonder man flaming carrot ninja turtles the comet legend the shield justice society america official movie mag from turtles movie sealed jelloman comic robin copies poster print copies each guardians the galaxy copies each copies each superman amazing spiderman oversized issue from darkhawk copies each copies each thor juggernaut ghost rider thor loki copies each new thor annual what alpha flight fant new mutants last issue look force print copies each print gold cover flash new annual men new all covers each but for magneto foldout cover uncanny men copies each sold copy left lee reg artist copy left print gold print defenders hulk sub mariner fantastic four copies each wolverine cable copies each silver surfer foil cover only copy left avengers origin rage factor quasar green lantern copies each toxic avenger copies each sleepwalker copies each kool aid man sealed white bag copies each force bagged cable card bagged shatterstar card nfl superpro strange hawkworld annual print armegedon tie hawk dove annual armegedon tie justice league america annual armegedon tie send all bids and comments chopin udel edu thanks sam the comic book collector college electrical engineering university delaware
misc.forsale	stuff for sale music cds inc shipping jesus jones doubt residents heaven rem document nymphs sad and damned single tapes robert plant all solo stuff led zeppelin tshirts robert plant manic nirvana tour led zeppelin symbols swansong black bob dylan tour tie dye all offers accepted mail jac virginia edu
misc.forsale	with calculator with card have manuals boxes cable etc only months old hardly used make offer mike mike jerger internet mjerger cso uiuc edu
misc.forsale	gre software cheap gre software for dos from studyware original disk manual tutorial stuff tests examples and lot more retail price around best offer around will pay shipping for best results you need graphic display card ega vga jianqing thssjyh iitmax acc iit edu
misc.forsale	oakleys for sale bulls blazers too have pair oakleys that cost about new year ago hardly ever wore them because they just don look right they are orange and blue and are the blade kind terminator style willing sell these for the first response get also have bulls blazers game for the snes that perfect condition selling for includes the instruction manual john bakerjn sage purdue edu
misc.forsale	catalog hard find enhancements repost article kfu taurus nps navy mil rpwhite nps navy mil rpwhite writes andy freeman writes joe doll writes the catalog personal computing tools for engineers and scien tists lists hardware cards and application software packages for class machines focus engineering and scien tific applications pcs such data acquisition control design automation and data analysis and presentation you would like free copy reply with your postal mailing address don bother never comes cheap trick for building mailing list sell junk mail flow any indication have copy this catalog front write this does have tons qool stuff that one any others impression that they try not send out browsers then they should have used different advert appears that your not buyer engineer they not want waste catalog you both made some worth products purchasing decisions for one company affiliated with the past months alone delicious bit irony interesting fraction went suppliers that suspect got mailing address from these people more the pipeline right now they wanted discuss these sorts things upfront the way when you get catalog there vip code you and who issues that vip code that policy implementation the running for this week silly twit award btw turns out that have several vip codes here the one using for these sorts things you want one send mail and put you touch with the folks who the application interview you qualify andy
misc.forsale	itproper net etiquette advertise company junk mail list article apr leland stanford edu thomper leland stanford edu dale buford thompson writes company maintains mailing list which regularly rented for someone provided useful information and mentioned that they made money the field don they know that usenet reserved for uninformed speculation people trying sell their personal stuff from houses dead pcs huge markup trying unload stuff they bought from their company just under retail and other non commercial activities windows utility product the range and available through direct media per name please let your direct mail marketing rep know about this thanks impression that net etiquette does not allow companies use the net directly advertise their products the net not supposed dumping ground for free ads but reserving for tripe doesn seem significant improvement addition improper etiquette this product mailing list used for generating junk mail either they target well enough pay for other words they manage send people who want the stuff which case junk only for the rest and the transaction costs are borne appropriately this case they bankrupt seems fair correct assuming this improper and what can done penalize such improper use you could hold your breath you could kill offending messages they come onto your machine and refuse send them any further but not until you turn blue andy
misc.forsale	onkyo integrated amp forsale have onkyo integrated amplifier that looking get rid integra series works great not problem asking obo your interested call email this address make offer todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	contax camera system for sale this posted for friend who doesn have net access you can send replies but out office all next week don expect response until least for sale contax camera system includes contax quartz slr body zeiss planna lens yashica lens medium sized hard case all items are exceptional condition asking price for all items listed above the seller attempting sell the lot set but you can negotiate that with him dick joltes joltes husc harvard edu hardware networking manager computer services joltes husc bitnet harvard university science center any woman that you become extremely attracted will immediately tell you that you the best friend woman could ever have david crist
misc.forsale	apartment moscow for rent article apr magnus acs ohio state edu vsloutsk magnus acs ohio state edu vladimir sloutsky writes apartment for rent downtown moscow room furnished apartment very nice location minutes walk belorusskaya subway station walking distance kremlin major shopping centers theaters restaurants and government buildings hmmm interesting what you mean walking distance lived moscow for years and minutes walk belorusskaya subway station cannot walking distance kremlin unless hour walking what you mean the way what the price may plan trip there not sure yet though late summer vick victorf seas ucla edu
misc.forsale	buick century estate wagon this article was probably generated buggy news reader
misc.forsale	pocono vacation house rental available for weekly weekly weekend rental brand new chalet private resort community located the heart the pocono mountains the chalet has bedrooms and bathrooms and features full carpeting cathedral ceiling living dining room overlooking loft stone fireplace wraparound deck country kitchen with all appliances and many other features too numerous list them all its custom designed and built and tastefully furnished for the comfort adults the community has hour security and offers large lakes sandy beaches swimming pools tennis courts many picnic areas playgrounds miniature golf trout stream lake fishing team softball shuffleboard ice skating tobagun run teen dances club house etc etc there are many recreational facilities within easy reach the vacation home ski resorts luxury hotels with nitely entertaiment pocono international raceway golf courses parks gamelands whitewater rafting horseback riding scenic trails waterfalls train rides historical places all kinds restaurants factory outlet malls tourist attractions just name few this ideal place for family group vacation weekend getaway there traffic congestion and air water pollution and its only hours from new york northern new jersey and philadelphia for further information call daytime evenings and weekends
misc.forsale	text books for sale must sell have several books which really wish sell calculus with analytic geometry howard anton edition chemistry zumdahl second edition acts war the behavior men battle richard holmes observing the nixon years jonathan schell the things they carried tim brien shrapnel the heart letters and remembrances from the vietname memorial laura palmer the good war oral history world war two studs terkel make offer you could contact koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	wanted ultima for ibm looking for ultima for the ibm would like the entire package meaning need more than just the game would like the docs also since old game not want pay lot money you are interested selling this game please respond this message
misc.forsale	computer for sale paolo marc anthony georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs ngp gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
misc.forsale	voice processing for ibm pcs sale voice processing system for ibm compatibles item dialogic multi line voice processing system description the dialog board that provides processing functions and call progress analysis for four independent phone lines simultaneously the features the ability record playback autoanswer auto dial detect and generate dtmf tones and perform telephone mamagement functions with this card you can make your computer talk phone lines simultaneously you can design your own answering system one already programmed you can build your own digital pager business and open business for voice mailboxes comes complete with manuals and demo software and programming libraries for unix and dos price list you pay for more info send mail contact john rost leave message johnr cactus org send mail
misc.forsale	items sale received from award giving company participated promotion company called visual images attempted cancel order before the package arrived was not able stop them and now have package which not need nishika camera wide angle flesh film carring case instruction tapes and some jewelrys vacation vouchers bahama cancun las vegas orlando paid for the promotion package and the vacation vouchers came gift really want sell them make offer for the whole package you are participating award how much you would end paying and strongly believe that you would get the same award you are interested those items you could get them from for cheaper price let know and make offer flames please have got enough you could reach koutd hirama hiram edu douglas kou hiram college
misc.forsale	wanted motherboard vga card looking for motherboard preferable meg ram also looking for vga card willing trade external drive motherboard monochrome monitor game boy some combination for the above libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	for sale game boy for sale nintendo game boy tetris castlevania adventure all star challenge nemesis play action football link cable make offer libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	for sale the following used are for sale they are each unless otherwise marked will pay for the shipping and handling costs you are interested any just mail awakhras phoenix princeton edu that point will figure out the payment and mailing procedure artist title robbie robertson storyville love and rockets love and rockets jeff lynne armchair theatre elvis costello mighty like rose public image ltd neneh cherry raw like sushi bobby brown don cruel depeche mode black celebration traveling wilburys vol bad company from soul soul vol new decade the godfathers more songs about love and hate paul mccartney flowers the dirt simply red stars prince graffitti bridge amer akhras awakhras phoenix princeton edu
misc.forsale	sega genesis plus sports games for sale for sale sega genesis including all cables manuals boxes controller games including all manuals and boxes sonic the hedgehog road rash john madden football hockey sportstalk baseball bulls lakers and the playoffs john madden football hockey super monaco all the above for best offer price includes ups cod shipping send mail erc zabriskie berkeley edu interested eric eric erc zabriskie berkeley edu ucbvax zabriskie erc
misc.forsale	looking looking for video and out video card for the ibm one that will allow you watch coax video and will video out digitize pictures and windows and would like able look the rca out for the card and have display there well dos apps heard these snes and genesis copiers that will copy any games are those for real message was posted outlan ersys edmonton hst and bis try you like
misc.forsale	spring cleaning sale time once again clean out the closet some stuff for offers some isn please read carefully the make offer department wordperfect upgrade copy includes all disks and all upgrade manuals best offer balance power edition for the amiga with manual and reg card best offer the for sale department technics model auto reverse open reel stereo tape deck because auto reverse this deck records onto tape just like cassette deck does not very good for splice type editing however have used effectively tape studio applications for mastering and works great and ips speeds supports reels dual lighted meters with record indicators full auto reverse capable and the mechanism works too adjustable sound sound and socket for remote control don know where you find one but they used make plus vac unswitched outlet this unit excellent condition and have had rebuilt once since got works perfectly price best offer possible trade see below panasonic printer pin with dpi resolution both text and graphics modes warranty cards manuals all the usual stuff you expect when buying like new merchandise selling because now have better printer this the wide carriage version the the way test prints are available upon request price trade excalibur custom pool cue brass joint irish linen wrap could use new tip but will hold for while got too many cues and don need this one hits nicely very straight and excellent condition price trade imperial hard case butt shaft available for additional trades need the following things and have cash own right now you want trade needs straight across the list amiga rom upgrade least preferably with appropriate dos and workbench meg agnus chip for the amiga amiga hard drive and controller preferably scsi ibm compatible hard drive and controller not mfm this one touchy have full height and don have room for more unless swap out needs above and will consider trading good the deal intel similar external high speed modem this not complete list but close you got something way off the track this list probably not going interest this point email responses please
misc.forsale	pink floyd rpm singles for sale have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which for the first record for two etc pink floyd learning fly columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columiba promo waters roger who needs information columiba promo you are interested please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	rolling stones rpm singles for sale have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which for the first record for two etc rolling stones nervous brakdown london picture sleeve rolling stones jumpin jack flash london picture sleeve rolling stones mothers little helper london picture sleeve rolling stones paint black london picture sleeve you are intereste please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	northwest air tix save any flight northwest air tix save any flight have credit with northwest airlines which must used nov there charge change the ticket will sell for can used for any northwest flight but don think they will refund cash please contact tallen corp com tom allen
misc.forsale	sam virus clinic mac software for sale have one original sam symantec antivirus for macintosh for sale comes with three program discs and one user manual will work with and disc drives selling for make offer which includes postage respond michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	rpm singles for sale complete list have the following rpm singles for sale most are collectable inch records with picture sleeves price does not include postage which for the first record for two etc beach boys barbara ann capitol picture sleeve beach boys califonia girls capitol picture sleeve beach boys fun fun fun capitol picture sleeve beach boys little girl once knew capitol picture sleeve beach boys please let wonder capitol picture sleeve beach boys rock roll the rescue capitol promo picture sleeve beach boys when grow man capitol picture sleeve beatles happy just dance with you capitol picture sleeve doctor the medics burn promo picture sleeve general public too much nothing promo picture sleeve gos our lips are sealed picture sleeve lennon john instant karma all shine apple picture sleeve lennon john mind games apple picture sleeve madonna open your heart sire promo mccartney paul coming columbia picture sleeve mccartney paul mull kintyre capitol picture sleeve mccartney paul stranglehold capitol promo picture sleeve mccartney paul wonderful christmastime columbia picture sleeve mercury freddie was born love you columbia promo picture sleeve pink floyd learning fly columbia promo picture sleeve queen kind magic capitol promo picture sleeve ramones sheena punk rocker sire promo picture sleeve rolling stones nervous brakdown london picture sleeve rolling stones jumpin jack flash london picture sleeve rolling stones mothers little helper london picture sleeve rolling stones paint black london picture sleeve starr ringo photograph apple picture sleeve starr ringo youre sixteen apple picture sleeve talking heads road nowhere sire promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columbia promo picture sleeve waters roger sunset strip columiba promo waters roger who needs information columiba promo you are interested please contact michael mchugh mmchugh andy bgsu edu
misc.forsale	game men for sale selling men for the for only plus shipping first email gets thanx dennis neal dlneal cbda apgea army mil
misc.forsale	turbografx system for sale turbografx base unit works like new with controller adapter antenna hookup games kieth courage victory run fantasy zone military madness battle royal legendary axe blazing lasers bloody wolf will sell games separatley each your kidding man man you can buy the system new for electronic boutique and those games are only about brand new maybe you should think about that price again you really need the money wayne state university steve teolis cass ave detroit steve busop cit wayne edu
misc.forsale	midi keyboard roland synthplus voice polyphonic fully programmable analog synthesizer full size keys midi memory store patches built speakers connectors midi thru out input expansion pedal head phones tape load save patch shift pedal hold output asking harmon mps ohio state edu
misc.forsale	wanted the nine mile walk article crossposted from rec arts books author was mark wilson posted wed apr gmt looking for the following book which have only seen paperback lent copy someone and forgetfulness has made that pronoun permanently indeterminate looking for one two copies title the nine mile walk and other stories unsure about the hyphen and the exact subtitle author harry kemelman author all the rabbi mysteries collection short mystery stories please email mark ocsmd ocs com call the number given below thanks mark mark wilson online computer systems try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with signature mean mark wilson online computer systems try email address mark ocsmd ocs com this file disclaims everything signed with signature mean
misc.forsale	forsale steyr parabellum for sale steyr parabellum this excellent handgun for the first time buyer experienced handgunner excellent condition never had misfire with make steyr model parabellum magazine rounds barrel hard chrome plated inside and outside for long term durability and wear resistance fixed mount price obo comes with magazines original owner manual contact ahmad ihlpm tarq weekdays
misc.forsale	wanted ide hard drive and vga monitor mail
misc.forsale	wysiwyg word processor for dos hey just upgraded laptop windows capable one don need dos word processor anymore great word processor easy use undemanding the system and best all has wysiwyg editing mode this something word perfect doesn have and all asking shipping even comes with several hundred dollars free utilities for full featured wysiwyg word processor perfect for laptop lower powered machine check this out has wysiwyg mode editing word perfect still trying this graphics importing scaling and resizing comes with free art scalable fonts typefaces included indentical from screen printer see below for more info font generator line spell checking and thesaurus see below for more info great level outliner multiple columns dual document opening and editing line and box drawing search and replace cut copy insert and paste between documents and inside documents justification control resettable margins tabs and line spacing savable layouts headers footers page numbering table contents multiple rulers one document mail merge also included free utilities publisher powerpak font engine this gives pfs write scalable fonts sizes from support for screen write and printer even pin dot matrix looks great comes with typefaces supports subscripts and superscripts too grammatik the grammar and style checker comes with quick reference card for easy use really helped punctuation and usage international correctspell english and roget electronic thesaurus dictionary and thesuarus pack published the publishers the american hertiage dictionary you can trust them with your words who can you trust clickart business images sampler the clickart library perfect for importing into pfs write documents bought this product year ago for its easy use and turns out great looking documents even dot matrix printer you want wysiwyg editing for your dos computer now pfs write here looking get comes with full documentation registration cards the box its still good condition both and disks for pfs write and grammatik and the clickart disk the utilities pfs write comes with are worth alone for full featured real bargain buyer pays shipping please respond email carolan owlnet rice edu call bryan dunne
misc.forsale	vcr cassette generator tube tester lawn spreader for sale vcr samsung basic head machine has problem loading the tape otherwise plays and records just fine remote missing make offer cassette deck pioneer three head servo control dolby this was the top the line close several years ago the rewind doesn work well all else fine service owners manual included offer generator vac watt has voltmeter duplex outlet engine should drive full output manufactered master mechanic burlington wisconsin make offer eico model tube tester make offer lawn spreader scott precision flow model drop type excellent condition ideal for smaller yard make offer craig days home
misc.forsale	printer and game for sale have the following for sale printer excellect working condition postage game the lost files sherlock holmes original box and contents used time and unregistered postage iterested email email caldwell epcot spdc com and will hold for you
misc.forsale	polk forsale pair polk for sale brand new never opened craigb rpi edu
misc.forsale	apartment for rent russia apartment for rent downtown moscow room furnished apartment very nice location minutes walk belorusskaya subway station walking distance kremlin major shopping centers theaters restaurants and government buildings available early june please call send mail vsloutsk magnus acs ohio state edu
misc.forsale	items for sale items for sale price listed best offer kfc svga monitor non interlaced screen still under warranty brand new baud compuadd modem box docs software cga monitor with cga parallel card sco unix unlimited user has the base and extended utilities and uucp turbo turbo the complete reference book serial card serial port joystick three button ide controller with serial parallel and one game port available each ask for ralf
misc.forsale	wanted singer featherweight looking for singer featherweight sewing machine old black sewing machine black case please contact mary flagle lee mlf unlinfo unl edu
misc.forsale	baseball card for sale have roberto clemente topps baseball card for sale near mint condition really close mint condition you can get lists for most recent baseball card pricelist for may offering for and pay the certified postage ship you please respond jack sendak office wang com ext maryland
misc.forsale	nth engine graphics cards have the following nth engine graphics cards for sale drivers for autocad display list proccessing done through hardware will take the highest reanable offer charles paschal total support computer systems tampa uucp paschal tscs fax mail post office box tampa florida
misc.forsale	novell have novell that will sell for which can upgraded for the novell has complete documentation but network cards except the card charles paschal total support computer systems tampa uucp paschal tscs fax mail post office box tampa florida
misc.forsale	roland juno synthesizer uniden radar detector sale actually they synth used jump was oberheim watch the video kevin
misc.forsale	high end car stereo for sale note this being posted for friend not reply account please direct all replies scott burke scott sparcom com alpine shuttle paid want obo alpine remote changer control paid want obo boston proseries subwoofers box paid want obo all equipment under months old and includes full replacement year warranty from original point purchase the subwoofer box was custom designed fit the back bronco and send replies scott sparcom com scott burke project leader sparcom corporation corvallis scott sparcom com telephone fax just waiting for the nuts brett barksdale brett porky oce orst edu
misc.forsale	for sale misc ibm stuff internal low density disk drive monochrome monitor motherboard built parallel and serial ports built mono and color output mhz libertarian atheist semi anarchal techno rat define myself tsa cellar org
misc.forsale	book forsale regards steve steve shapiro all views and opinions expressed sks computer consulting inc are own and are offered steve shapiro fidonet org bbs
misc.forsale	question suggestion for everyone please read both paries this then the transaction will obviously cod this allows both parties exercise the amount trust they see fit cod fine until the buyer opens the box find they paid for brick the seller allows for personal check used cod fine till stop payment made there are few methods protect both buyer and seller any sort transaction even with merchants and customers there are problems stolen credit cards chargebacks return policies and getting the wrong item etc about the only protection available business with someone you trust someone who has been around for while jeff jeff freeman porch toll free front porch computers voice box fax chatsworth compuserve internet jfreeman frontporch win net
misc.forsale	car for sale from mikefran wed apr edt article csc general newsgroups forsale general general csc general path wam umd edu mikefran from mikefran wam umd edu michael francis subject car for sale message apr wam umd edu keywords volkswagon scirocco sender usenet wam umd edu usenet news system nntp posting host rac wam umd edu organization workstations maryland university maryland college park distribution csc date wed apr gmt volkswagon scirocco gold exterior and interior speed transmission stereo with cassette sunroof engine good condition new tires needs work front left control arm because damage caused pothole runs well asking obo email mikefran wam umd edu
misc.forsale	transmitter tube got eimac transmitter linear amplifier tube unused original packaging but opened and inventoried guarantee this tube operate and observation and its paperwork say unused although have transmitter test with offers dave medin phone ssd networking intergraph corp internet dtmedin catbyte ingr com huntsville uucp uunet ingr catbyte dtmedin everywhere you look least around office the opinions expressed here are mine those machine
misc.forsale	expen ive motorola handheld radio for peanuts agent writes can longer use anything japanese kenwood yeasu icom alinco its all junk well not sure quite that far but agree that motorola gear better quality the question how much that quality worth ham amateur service not commercial service this radio can hear repeater thats miles away without antenna great but how often does that come how good good enough and how much someone willing pay for good ham quality maybe while commercial quality one maybe the increased reliability and performance worth times the price amateur service only the individual involved can answer that question and each ham has decide for him herself motorola quality worth times the price you then more power but amazed that folks make that choice for given that got spend pick the yaesu and nice new rig every time over motorola alone matter how good ham quality gear good enough each his own mike pdy these are opinions only
misc.forsale	attention super nintendo and genesis players read this pleased announce new revolutionary device that allows you copy super nintendo and genesis games floppy disk then later play from floppy disk with out the cart this independent system that interfaces with your snes genesis other features store multiple copies cart save game disk saves disk save your position snes games that don norally have save feature switch your snes into slow motion mode use codes get unlimited lives and other cheats many games the multi game hunter capable copying both snes and genesis game carts standard ibm formated floppy disks the games can them played directly from the floppy disk note does not require full color screen icons and menus make operation for the mgh simple that even child could operate options can selected simply choosing the selection with the game controller and pressin button add game saver adapter your system for more game playing power the game saver allows you save your position disk almost any snes game reload your saved position any time enable slow motion feature for those really tough games for more control over game play have the game finger software the game finger software can give you unlimited lives warp you new levels your favorite snes games bring back life those really frustrating games also you know how program asm code you can create your own snes demos games mgh includes base unit disk drive high density drive megabit ram sram all adapters and comes ready hook your gameing system only thing not included the power supply which you can pick radio shack all for only disclamer the customer assumes all responsibility for the use and misuse this product way encourage nor condone the use this product for software piracy this device intended soley for making legal backup copies neither nintendo sega has giving official endorsement the products described herein email for more info make purchase
misc.forsale	dak shorwave radio digitally tuned shorwave radio with alarm clock and presets per band has and bands asking shppg reply for more details thanks pete mwieu cmuvm cmich edu
misc.forsale	portable color hey have color watchman sony for sale total and the screen diagonal over wide over tall got years ago for asking obo vhf and uhf switch for channels through slot for audio video from vcr appropriate cord provided slot for phones slot for adaptor adaptor also provided slot for external antenna internal antenna provided off switch manual tuning volume brightness and hue battery run well batteries provided been used very little looks like new email interested dave
misc.forsale	white toyota camry must sell must sell toyota camry car has sunroof cassette radio cruise control etc miles white with red interior car excellent condition located the paramus area best offer interested please call
misc.forsale	oakleys for sale items wanted heya all got pair oakley forsale there are frogskins with aurborn red there are scratches and only used them once twice last summer looking for about dollars but please give bid looking for the following items bubble jet printer that works and cheapo was looking for cannon but have bubble jet sell please tell looking spend about sound cards sound blaster compatible again looking fer something cheap such dollars thanks whirley address whirley sage purdue edu
misc.forsale	xlt handheld radio scanner hello have xlt handheld radio scanner which recieves police fire ambulance aircraft cordless and cellular phone etc the unit original condition and comes with the manual the power supply and battery charger price plus austin harris aharris athena uga edu
misc.forsale	wanted original shanghai for looking for shanghai solitaire game with mahjongg tiles for you have copy laying around send email richg sequent com thanks ooo rich garrett richg sequent com work
misc.forsale	vhs movie for sale didn mcdonald sell copies dances with wovies for not too long ago they were also selling babes toyland the scott baio version and something even more forgettable just think video drive thru take mcrib mcchicken and copy debbie does mcdallas you want fries and napkins with that bob his rrb caball vcu edu after this post really going start studying really
misc.forsale	new and used floppy disks for sale have some brand new shrinkwrapped boxes floppy disks that would like sell they are all disks boxes floppy disks boxes floppy disks misco selling the disks for for box ten and they are selling the disks for for box ten will take the best offer can get for the disks many boxes you want also have quantity floppy disks that some people were getting rid probably due upgrade newer drive system all the disks are used and most have labels them but they all appear good physical shape however make guarantees the quality these disks here are the statistics quantity make type single side double density soft sector bytes record memorex single side double density soft sector bytes record will accept the best offer receive for the disks and willing sell them off different amounts the minimum being box ten get offers these disks would considering throwing them with the new disks selling above also have head cleaning kit for disk drives for which will take the best offer can get all sales are final would prefer ship cod and add the shipping costs onto the total order cost please send mail formula athena mit edu interested address ronald duff phone home lamplighter drive work mit room shrewsbury internet formula athena mit edu
misc.forsale	wanted one way flight from des moines chicago need one way flight ticket from des moines chicago the may please send your replies jasonlim iastate edu this account soon possible thank you
misc.forsale	car audio forsale car audio products for sale kicker stillwater designs kickers sealed box the box manufactured direct from kicker instructions asking shipping kicker stillwater designs kicker subwoofers instructions asking shipping sold pair only kenwood kac amp watts ohm stable box instruction included asking shipping selling the above item for friend without internet access you can either mail call him mike metalios foxfire
misc.forsale	car amp forsale car audio system items sony head unit radio pullout max dolby controls all sony changers disc track select track disc scan repeat shuffle play features auto reverse logic controls presets strong station memory preset scan tuner monitor seek manual tuning mono stereo and local switches metal tape compatible fader orig sony cdx disc changer oversampling dual converters with single clock design features one beam laser spring and silicon charged suspension system horizontal vertical mounting pin din connector disc magazine connecting cable thd orig asking for both the radio controller and the changer there are problems with either unit and they are both reasonably good condition the radio and changers will only sold together two coustic amp channels bridgeable into ohms from with thd channel into ohms from with thd channels into ohms from with thd ohm stable features pwm switching power supply protection circuits orig asking each the units are good working condition and are currently being used supply power subs can demonstrate power ratings you are interested any the above items have any questions drop some mail foxfire access digex com
misc.forsale	computer stuff for sale computer hardware all are working fine last time checked tandy external floppy drive with cable hardly used software all software include original manual some even with registeration card per onal financial accountant financial statements balance sheet income expense etc ainsworth keyboard trainer typing teacher easy working tri pack includes following filer database store all kinds information planner spreadsheet writer easy use word processor great for simple calculations work processing etc books inside the norton utilities revised and expanded brady books authored rob krumm introduction peter norton maker norton utilities includes detachable quick reference card norton utilities shows you how get the most from the norton utilities standard edition the norton utilities advanced edition norton commander norton editor norton disk doctor plus the peter norton line guides the only book that does full justice the power and variety all the norton utility software peter norton price originally was asking turbo pascal express revised one disk ready run assembly language routines that make turbo pascal faster more powerful and easier use equipment determination routines and access expanded memory extensive keyboard and mouse input functions extremely fast video facilities including text graphics routines for fancy menus and windows routines for bit operations and data compression routines for elaborate printer control formatting and error recovery powerful routines for searching directory trees and displaying tree diagrams detailed information about writing other assembly routines for assembly language programmers original price was asking hard disk power the jamsa disk utilities two disks complete guide hard disk efficiency power techniques for maximum performance understand how your hard disk works beneath the surface original price was asking prices does not include shipping prices are negotiable please contact jian mail jlz sonata purdue edu preferred you are interested jian liang zhen lifeforms are extinct other planets because jlz sonata purdue edu their science more advanced than ours dos windows desqview unix
misc.forsale	usr hst external for sale robotics hst external modem including power adapter users guide and quick reference card call voice let talk about herb qmpro dogs come when you call cats have answering machines
misc.forsale	for sale window shades kirsch pull down window shades white light filtering wide high can cut width brand new unopened best quality vinyl coated cotton mounting brackets included bought penney rajaram sun com
misc.forsale	porsche posting for friend porsche new this vehicle was today book list this vehicle between perfect every way with all options including new paint leather interior sunroof and low miles call ask for frank and lets negotiate trades considered
misc.forsale	forsale trade have ide forsale trade would like trade possible ide westren digital errors bad sectors access time kilobytes per second transfer rate working computer right now looking for trade maybe sega genesis pair sub woffers souround sound stereo reciever any kind electornic equipment you have electorinic equipment like almost any kind computrer car home equipment you want make offer trade let know player ect please you are interested trade let know email rogess sage purdue edu
misc.forsale	brand new toner for sale cheap for sale brand new hewlett packard toner cartridge model number selling this toner because recently bought brother printer and the toner that selling activated the toner but ended returning the printer the store however would not take back the toner this toner has been used print only three pages and perfect condition will protect for shipment that toner escapes comes with all original packaging and manuals the toner compatible with any laser printer that uses the model number the toner selling just look your manual see will work for you will not below will pay the shipping anywhere the continental united states you are interested leave email call kirk peterson anytime thank you
misc.forsale	ibm software for sale cheap for sale three software packages for ibm and compatible computers wing commander deluxe edition includes secret missions includes all original packaging manuals and disks includes registration card you can send and register your name original price for wing commander original price for secret missions original price for secret missions total original price asking price for all these these games together wing commander and the secret missions battle and flight simulator set space includes all the standard fun things about flight simulators like taking off and landing carriers flying course and better yet also battle simulator lot fun indeed ibm compatible with least and dual floppies hard drive required winway resume for windows includes all original packaging manuals and disks original price asking price winway resume resume writing program for windows excellent program got job and running under the window interface makes very very easy use all you answer few questions and print out the results just few minutes you have beautifully and professionally designed resume ibm with windows later installed and free hard disk space required more typefaces includes all original packaging manuals and disks original price asking price more typefaces package three typetype font families for total twelve fonts for windows the fonts included are marque crystal and architech and course italic bold and bold italic versions are included with all those fonts because the unique font software included with the package these fonts can used with either the morefonts typeface program adobe type manager truetype geoworks express publisher and coreldraw ibm with windows and hard disk required you want use the typefaces truetype format for all other formats ibm and hard disk with one the programs listed above required you are interested any these programs please either leave email call kirk peterson anytime don answer leave message answering machine and call you back will pay the shipping all the programs anywhere the continental united states thank you
misc.forsale	genesis carts forsale posting for friend please call steve interested sega genesis games for sale original boxes with original manuals approximately month old john madden football electronic arts obo ecco the dolphin sega obo again posting for friend interested call steve
misc.forsale	disk for sale have full size seagate scsi disk for sale model this brand new disk never been used formatted send your offer lohia bharat aux apple com raj
misc.forsale	saturn for sale saturn spd miles cruise abs air bag cassette anti theft excellent obo consider spd compact part trade damien berger berger eds com
misc.forsale	hobiecat special for sale hobie cat special very good condition with trailer catbox righting system many extras boat currently garaged natick miles east boston contact rclar ctp com call
misc.forsale	for sale complete communicator card for ibm voicemail modem fax complete communicator latest vers new box works dos windows one card you get fax voicemail and modem auto switch one line handles all fax voicemail and modem communications new dollars and you pay shipping
misc.forsale	optonica tuner and integrated amp forsale have old optonica tuner and integrated amp that longer use the integrated amp section does not work right now but should not cost much fix believe that just chip have used preamp and works great this very nice looking and well built set they both are low profile but the amp rather heavy the tuner fine working condition and match the amp the amp rated these peices went for about new would like get obo for the pair anybody has knowledge anough fix the amp have had estimate done that should cost less than parts please email you are interested will moving back home for the summer and will sell back there not here todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	onkyo integra series integrated amp for sale have onkyo integrated amplifier that looking get rid works great integra series not problem asking obo your interested call email this address make offer todd todd premo purdue universtiy environmental engineering
misc.forsale	honda accord honda accord light brown four door power windows power brakes power locks power steering power antenna cassette totally cloth interior very nice miles but excellent condition must sell quit job back school blue book idaho asking only obo email bartmich cwis isu edu phone pocatello idaho from michael barta amiga send email electronics student bartmich cwis isu edu
misc.forsale	roms sale new looking find some people interested getting some rom below list with their prices you are interested any these send some mail and can guarantee this price you are not local their will shipping cost and cod cost you prefer shipped that way marcus american business phonebook dos animals dos animals mpc audoban birds dos audoban mammals dos barney bear goes school dos bible library dos bibles and religion dos book lists dos britannicas family choice dos britamrica select dos business economics dos business backgrounds dos business master dos carmen san diego lwhere mpc play launch dos rom software jukebox dos cia vorld taur dos chess master mpc dos classic col lection dos clipert goliath dos colossal cookbook dos delorme atlas usa win desert storm mpc deathstar arcade battles dos dictionaries language dos education master dos electronic home library dos family doctor dos family encyclopedia comptons dos family encyclopedia comptons mpc game master dos game pack dos golden immortal dos great cities the world dos greet cities the world mpc great cities the world dos great cities the world mpc groliers encyclopedia dos groliers encyclopedia mpc guiness disc dos ham radio dos information usa dos islands designs dos jets props dos jones fast lane dos mps kgb cia world fact book dos kings quest dos mpc library the future dos loom dos mpc wizard mpc macmillan kids dictionary mpc magazine rack dos majestic places dos mavis beacon teaches typing mpc mixed mother goose dos mpc money money money dos monkey island dos oak stand dos our solar system dos presidents dos publish dos reference library dos secret weapons luftwaffe mpc shereware games dos shereware overload dos sher holmes consul det mpc sleeping beauty dos srd software bundle titles stellar dos mpc story time interactive dos the rom collection dos time magazine almanac current dos time table hist sci innovation dos tons gigs dos too many typefonts dos total baseball dos atlas automap dos history dos world atlas dos mpc wars civil war dos wild places dos wing com ultima dos mpc world view dos mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet net voice internet mkbaird david uunet net mail mkbaird david wheaton edu mkbaird david bitnet uunet net voice internet mkbaird david uunet net
misc.forsale	minolta forsale minolta lens for sale good condition asking rupin dang dartmouth edu
misc.forsale	panasonic answering machine forsale auto logic panasonic answering machine with dual cassette system will include cassettes and power adaptor excellent condition asking with accessories
misc.forsale	mostly non computer items rochester area swell items for sale hardly any computer stuff lotus student edition for dos this does just about everything that standard release could but not much worksheet size limited columns rows there translation facility for importing data from other packages and the student edition does not write files that can accessed release includes manual original distribution diskettes and key board templates subaru service manuals this not complete set but includes sections which cover mechanical components suspension wheels axles steering brakes pedals control cables heater ventilator air conditioning body body exterior doors windows seats seat belts interior instrument panel and electrical engine electrical system body electrical system wiring diagram and trouble shooting these are the genuine subaru issue manuals they are for model year but have plenty good information that applies other years well miscellaneous darkroom equipment solar enlarger several objective lenses with easel and timer negative carriers for and misc printing masks developing tanks thermometer trays constant temperature bath ground glass mirrors darkroom lamps glassware cheap tripods and they say much more beautiful antique buffet solid cherry veneer handmade with very interesting dovetail corners the drawers built think around not gaudy covered with gew gaws simple elegant piece furniture but too big long tall deep for our little cape cod house will deliver pricier items over anywhere the rochester area and will consider delivering the others will deliver any near uofr campus between now and graduation call mail paul mary just south rochester plkg ltd uhura rochester edu
misc.forsale	simms for sale pin for mac included shipping
misc.forsale	camera bags for sale large padded cordura bag maker unknown nge exterior black straps and interior five outside pocket plus lid compartment lid overlaps internal dividers can repositioned held whole bronica system metz flash etc small nikon shoulder bag sorry sold shippe small nikon belt pouch khaki like similar design army ammo pouch belt clips etc holds flash small zoom lens cleaner etc domke belt pouch black also has metal loops you want attach strap velcro closure similar concept but bigger holds zoom flash small accessories etc hardly used cost originally will sell for coast camera bag tan with brown strap main and front pocket can hold slr with small zoom plus flash film etc matl looks like gore tex but don think really terms payment advance money order bank check cash buyer pays shipping must ups for the others send adequate self addressed mailing envelope padded recommended with enough postage everyone entitled opinion goldberg oasys navy mil imagination more important than knowledge albert einstein everyone entitled opinion goldberg oasys navy mil imagination more important than knowledge albert einstein
misc.forsale	very bare micronics system bare means what says you get case power supply and motherboard with ram and coprocessor everything else yours add you like the case power supply standard desktop case watt power supply with the usual connectors room for five floppy hard drives three visible two internal the motherboard made micronics slot motherboard with intel mhz cpu sram cache ram using simms worth alone cyrix math coprocessor worth alone norton rating latest version phoenix bios please not post email saying but can get taiwanese superclone for only including free toaster certain you can find cheaper brand board without even breaking sweat new micronics cpus command several hundred dollar premium because they are made use high quality components and are known both very reliable and compatible they have been oemed systems sold both gateway and zeos various points the past check out the ads the back pages byte magazine you want see this price differential for yourself price complete less you don want need the case and power supply the board fully guaranteed email for further details for any questions thanks david ruggiero jdavid halcyon com seattle home the moss people
misc.forsale	nintendo games forsale and dead nintendo forsale nintendo control deck with two controllers and gun one controller has grips attached the nes will only connect composite monitor with audio and video rca input jacks and needs some repairs best offer games for sale tecmo baseball techmo bowl double dribble wayne gretzky hockey golf super mario duck hunt toobin spelunker tecmo super bowl total give all them you for best offer and throw the control deck also accept the best offer for each the games the oldest these two years old most them are less than year old tom warning signature under construction enter your own risc
misc.forsale	for sale urei band equalizer have urei band mono equilizer for sale anyone who knows this unit knows been recording studio standard for years pretty straightforward unit with balanced ins and outs power supply caps were recently replaced and added xlr connectors which can easily removed you prefer mounted them bracket outside the case the unit good shape and sonically very clean asking ups shipping they going for generally make offer tod treganowan computing and information services university pittsburgh work home
misc.forsale	looking music for macintosh trying set personal studio what looking for are cheap sampler rack with keyboard cheap sound card audiomedia something similar cheap course relative
misc.forsale	mfm controller wanted have friend who looking buy mfm controller you have one for sale would you please contact through email thanx ehud ehud eng umd edu eoentung cbis com
misc.forsale	for sale have the following for sale these are absolutely new and the original packing artist album original sale price price madonna the immaculate collection pet shop boys discography you are interested pls contact parikhma ucunix san edu thanks parikh
misc.forsale	stealth vram sale item brand new stealth vram color card meg display price comes with install disk turbo windows drivers bit color halo desktop imager bit for windows advanced autocad accelerator includes big picture complete manual interested please mail sunbum cory berkeley edu thanks
misc.forsale	for sale for sale jon bon jovi new jersey boomerang soundtrack the police every breath you take mail rtsbangi memstvx memst edu
misc.forsale	toyota camry super deluxe toyota camry top the line vehicle blue book asking miles auto transmission has everything owned meticulous automoble mechanic call ask for bob posted for friend
misc.forsale	car for trade title just bout says all grasshopper remote controlled car for sale trade features racing engine installed original included well sets tires futaba channel radio with servos receiver body completly refinished great shape battery and charger every thing you need have running right out the box very fast everything haven run this thing long time had out the other day just check and everything listen any cash offers but more interested trading for some extra storage for computer you have any the following and are interested trade drop line ide hard drive megs must wide tall scsi hard drive megs must wide tall scsi tape backup any make size scsi rom baud modem external please leave any offers questions email lgibb nyx edu
misc.forsale	wanted xapshot digital camera wanted cannon xapshot digital camera interested any other makes but the xapshot the only one familiar with need one with composite output and approx pictures per disk capability you have one for sale you know cheap place order one please leave email lgibb nyx edu thanks
misc.forsale	vga card meg wanted must have meg memory and support res even higher will better has pin ports and also supports ega cga that better will pay shipping for let knoe have one like this ailin
misc.forsale	bally holiday health club lifetime memership article access digex net access digex com writes article visgraph uucp forrie visgraph uucp forrest aldrich writes for sale life time membership the ballys holiday fitness club the original fee paid for this was over and sell for the membership fully transferrable via proper paperwork does include raquetball good espree what the annual fee since life time membership you won have worry about until your next life trey arthur csc nasa langley aerospace engineer hampton arthur larc nasa gov
misc.forsale	nikkor forsale nikkor zoom lens excellent condition looking get the version selling this asking offers please
misc.forsale	nikon and lens forsale has been sold following remains minolta lens ricoh camera with zoom lens identical features nikon plus some more great condition inquire about low price vhs tapes brand new fuji high quality inquire
misc.forsale	mhz mhz amps mtr for sale have the following equipment for sale kenwood mtr concepts mtr amp out hamtronics class continuous duty mhz watt watt out amp all prices include shipping insurance for additional information contact the address below dave admiral david ryan der anomaly sbs com uunet rayssd anomaly der
misc.forsale	sega genesis for sale trade game gear sega control panel super manaco catrridge one regular controller one turbo controller adapter cable stereo cable carrying bag would like plus shipping trade with game gear and game please mail you feel interested thank you bill
misc.forsale	for sale high guality conifer oil from russia ton ton inguiry address eridan chuvashia
misc.forsale	for sale high guality conifer oil from russia ton ton inguiry address eridan chuvashia
misc.forsale	amiga for sale for sale amigas commodore amiga best offer ram internal floppy drive detachable keyboard button mouse commodore amiga best offer ram internal floppy drive button mouse rgb monitor best offer external floppy drive best offer call brian dickman send mail dickman con huey millersv edu
misc.forsale	wanted video equipment repost looking for working docking deck deck that goes back camera for old jvc tube video camera any format acceptable please send message you even know anything about decks for the also interested any video equipment for sale professional consumer thank you bbates pro freedom van pro freedom bbs
misc.forsale	network and office equipment long repost lower prices new posting lower prices make offers anything that seems interesting company associated with closing out some inventory and office equipment here what available quan item description price new additions novell user version best offer netware advanced netware with tts sft system fault tolerance level remember disk duplexing mirroring sells transaction tracking fault for tolerant file system etc for just the manuals alone take users foot and half shelf space hayes lanstep hayes peer peer lan starter package operating system and email netbios compatible expands users unopened canon great little copy machine makes great copies just needs toner reduce enlarge etc very good condition bargain end new items bytex ringout token ring cable and mau was testing and certification tool this the standard now handheld testing unit used large companies such coca cola and american express certify their physical layer current retail price these are demo new microtest lanmodem excellent modem server for novell was networks supports remote lan node indial modem pooling and lan lan asynchronous routing now ethernet version current retail price microtest lanport standalone ethernet print was aui com server for novell networks the intel netportii now based this original retail most these are brand new microtest lanport see above bnc com microtest lanport see above bnc com com microtest lanport see above aui com com microtest lanport see above aui lpt microtest lanport see above bnc lpt token ring mau port ibm clone milan mil aui baset mini transceiver was now qms smartwriter laserjet plus compatible was laser printer ppm dpi based the canon engine now has serial and ibm twinax ports emulates epson ibm proprinter diablo and qume downloads fonts reliable ibm quietwriter quiet letter quality printer sheet time feed have extra ribbon cartridges ibm tractor feed for the quietwriter above ibm compatible misc compatible computers was some are pcs limited original dell computer some are tech these come with now least hard disk floppy monochrome video card keyboard and memory ibm compatible some these are original ibm was some are turbo clones clone brands include tandon acer and everex standard now equipment the same above except most have hard drives and floppy amber monitor for ibm compatible monochrome ttl type brands vary including samsung magnavox and adi mostly want stay local these too hard ship ibm green monitor ubiquitous ibm display monochrome ttl type local see above zenith zfl laptop full size and full was travel keyboard compatible backlit supertwist display now dual floppies accton ethercoax bit bnc ethernet interface was card for compatibles this unit nicely made mostly now also have used surface mount clone the ubiquitous western digital new box with disk western digital the real mccoy version the above drivers are available for just about anything used surprising performance for bit card dma hassles hedaka modem internal for compatibles was box almost new works fine now hayes internal internal real hayes modem for compatibles untested terms the above are shipping extra usual offers are welcome but think most these prices are more than fair most this equipment tested and working perfectly unless otherwise noted please contact via email follows wet com netcom hoptoad wet thanks
misc.forsale	for sale system printer obo commodore epson homewriter pin printer disk drive joysticks mouse lotsa software both games and apps rapid fire joystick adapter about year old obo ommon pchang sunysb edu ense state university new york stony brook ngineer
misc.forsale	marvel comics for sale mostly cover price comics for sale all are marvel and the majority the comics are cover price buyer pays shipping shipping costs will vary with the quantity you buy all reasonable offers will considered punisher each punisher each regular series factor annual silver surfer print each force ghost rider each new mutants each marvel comics presents each here you have please send replies uicvm uic edu noel lorenzana thanks
misc.forsale	more comics for sale miscellaneous comics for sale really would like get rid these for lack space buyer pays shipping and all offers considered and the first purchase over any posts gets free maxx coupon trashed copy amazing spidey here goes deathlok each annual special sleepwalker set each next men ray deathstroke each darkhawk new warrior fantasti four moon knight each hulk each punisher cage force silver sable calibur each hearts darkness infinity guantlet each batman pred each deluxe guardians the galaxy spider man set spec spider man special hologram let know you like buy anything address uicvm uic edu thanks noel lorenzana
misc.forsale	newtek video toaster link for sale have bout dozen newtek video toaster links available these connect macs and the video toaster list street price likely can sell them off for including shipping anywhere factory shrinkwrapped plus tax california mail rebop call you would like further info all toaster and toaster accessories and system components are available well bob ulius rebop well
misc.forsale	keyboard wanted looking buy working keyboard for system preferably layout looking spend about david
misc.forsale	wanted avionics equip looking for good deals the following used new aviation headsets with mic handheld nav com tranciever may consider com only portable gps loran navigator reply here call only after please don wake the night worker house you must call during the day can understand you want your employer pay for the call jay snyder jay gdx uunet vogon compnect gdx jay this your brain unix gdx bbs worldblazer this your brain drugs msdos unix and msdos file areas xenix bins jay snyder jay gdx uunet vogon compnect gdx jay this your brain unix gdx bbs worldblazer this your brain drugs msdos unix and msdos file areas xenix bins
misc.forsale	star trek tos novels package some reading from recent interview trip waiting all day hare month ago waiting out the storm here new york the price the phoenix the fate the phoenix memory prime take the package for trade for good used gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
misc.forsale	for sale ultrabots game electronics art ultrabots game for sale with book and original disks the original box best offer contact unpingco raman ucsd edu
misc.forsale	synoptics lan for sale trade synoptics model lan concentrators new never used original packing each unit has ports for mbps ethernet connectivity included are one power supply manuals bracket hardware for racks you can setup lans using unshielded twisted pair utp telephone wiring both units trade looking for hardware email jerry ciz rose com phone hrs days week rosereader entered rose rosemail rosenet usenet gateway rose media
misc.forsale	clone for sale for sale ibm compatible personal computer dos brand acer age years specs ram meg hard drive floppy drive color monitor baud usrobotics internal modem bundled with loads software word processing communications spreadsheet games good computer that successfully got through all and half phd decided switch mac for dissertation perfect for high school student college student person who needs basic word processing spreadsheet and database capabilities best offer reply laura gurak userglub mts rpi edu laura gurak phd candidate dept language literature and communication rensselaer polytechnic institute troy gurakl rpi edu rhetorics science technology social aspects computing rhet criticism
misc.forsale	macintosh plus for sale macintosh plus includes drives external software word excel pascal intro package hypercard tour etc leaving school may must sell steal please reply mail eve albany edu albnyvms bitnet only the strong
misc.forsale	sega genesis games for sale have sega genesis barely used that iud like sell with the following games sonic the hedgehog revenge shinobi thunderforce iii asking obo can best reached via email alternatively phone alexander hinds
misc.forsale	headphones for sale have two pairs headphones like sell these are excellent and both great condition denon jvc any reasonable offer accepted alexander hinds
misc.forsale	rok steady keyboard stand for sale update hello again folks been while since last sold thangs but the last time went with problems and moving again have few keyboard stands that don need anymore and don want drag back across the country ultimate support stand probably sold will see gone saturday pick date rok steady tier keyboard stand best offer try one shaped bottom unit with two sets arms that attach that support keyboard above the main shipping not included the above prices but details can worked out you interested these items dan keldsen djk ccwf utexas edu dan keldsen are you now have you ever been djk ccwf utexas edu berklee college student univ texas austin member fan billy death music composition max programmer consultant ask think midi programmer
misc.forsale	for sale paradise svga accelerator card for sale paradise svga accelerator card times faster than vga manual drivers used for months perfect condition chipset obo for more info thouchin umr edu houchin
misc.forsale	printing psilink com jack previdi psilink com writes matter fact does make difference almost half million new users joined the internet last year many them are commercial businesses the ban commercial use internet more this true but long standing tradition has been keep commercial advertising the biz hierarchy trip martin night acm rpi edu night acm rpi edu rpi edu
misc.forsale	transporter for sale hello all have transporter for sale will work with either apple iie however only have the installation kit this pct also has processor installed comes with the latest software and drive what you get transporter problems runs great installation kit for above pct with video tape instructions all needed harware with color adapter for monitor processor installed board all manuals and software ver aepc one drive hook the pct brian laakso send your reasonable offers email blaakso umn edu
misc.forsale	modem zoom here zoom fax data bis modem have evreything only purchased january will happily provide the fax comm software and box and manuals selling this for only cod nicolas nowinski feel free call for quickest service olx yes you can become asm programer for
misc.forsale	fax modem for sale repost since the original buyer found out couldn use this modem for his mac beleive mentioned that internal former post the modem available now this modem suprafaxmodem bis interested please mail thanks sorry already lost those mails stated interested this modem you all are still interested please mail again
misc.forsale	misc items pip tuner ant gym scanner run brds have the following items for sale rabbit pip tuner soloflex like gym scanner mhz antenna blazer jimmy running boards rabbit pip picture picture box this device when used with vcr tuner will allow you have second channel popped any corner the screen the you can press swap the remote and the small picture will swapped with the main picture the only limitation this box that has channel tuner this means that the box itself cannot tune higher than cable channel however your vcr tuner capable tuning higher than this then you simply tune the vcr the channel desired and then swap pictures assuming the alternate picture channel lower and will work fine original cost will sell for running boards for jimmy blazer brand new black running boards for the models purchased them and realized that could not use after return period expired them because wheel trim that have installed vehicle original cost will sell for regency channel scanner recieves cellular frequencies mhz along with other bands brand new cad battery pack original cost will sell for gyn plex model workout gym similar solo flex this gym similar solo flex that uses resistance bands increase the effective lifting weight all black and made steel have extra set bands that purchased that will included original cost will sell for big stick antenna for mhz band will sell for because weight other difficulty last items for atlanta area only please will share non cod shipping charges thanks manny information gateway bbs public access newsgroups email please reply hernandez info blackwlf mese com sysop hernandez info atl
misc.forsale	forsale and hard drive packer bell mhz bit expansion slots external drive bays floppies internal drive bay hard drive floppy drive ram best offer including shipping segate scsi hard drive great shape controller format best offer including shipping
misc.forsale	for sale track recorder have fostex track recorder for sale excellent condition and includes dolby noise reduction sub mixing inputs and uses normal cassettes you are interested make offer please respond zmed trc amoco com thanks mike
misc.forsale	for sale drum machine have alesis drum machine for sale includes velocity sensitive pads digital sounds pattern memory and song memory you are interested make offer please respond zmed trc amoco com thanks mike
misc.forsale	mitsubishi eclipse gsx for sale for sale mitsubishi eclipse gsx all wheel drive valve turbo speed transmission limited slip differential stereo player cassette speakers fog lights air conditioning cruise control electric windows front rear intermittent wipers washers alloy wheels undercoated rustproofed miles maui blue excellent condition asking negotiable call pete work home respond pvannuis attmail com
misc.forsale	riding lawn mower for sale ariens riding lawn mower this mower perfect condition and contains the following features electric start inch cut double rear baggers new battery new engine one year old inflatable tires gives nice ride cushioned seat gives nice ride tuned and blade sharpened the past month moving into house that has small area grass cut and does not require such large mower the engine was replaced not rebuilt last year due some faulty work done lawn mower repair shop price phone day nights weekends
misc.forsale	test this test thanks
misc.forsale	for sale mhz motherboard system with megabytes recently upgraded and have found out don really have need for old prefer sell just the motherboard and keep the case etc offer the motherboard and case separately and let you decide asking for the motherboard which has mhz not megabytes bit memory ami bios based neat chipset this means the motherboard and bus circuitry timings are programmable the bios advanced configuration menus let you select system dma bus clock wait states command delays etc baby sized fits mini tower full sized most any other case includes user guide and copy the bios reference manual for more you could have the rest the system too full size case with watt power supply serial parallel game ports hard disk floppy disk keyboard video card choice vga you interested please give call the system set house aloha and you welcome come test drive random drivel from the keyboard brad davis ncd inc beaverton network computing devices bradd pcx ncd com ncd xdivision office
misc.forsale	syquest cartrifge forsale have new and slightly used syquest cartridge forsale asking for all them and shipping included please reply mail richard
misc.forsale	dos posting for friend reply him not for sale micro soft dos micro soft dos release date diskettes manual perfect conditioni best offer accepted pay shippinig contact randall randall clark byu edu home work
misc.forsale	nintendo system power pad light gun games nintendo bit system power pad light gun zapper controllers games supermario duck hunt power field and wings asking please reply psuvm psu edu
misc.forsale	wanted super projector with sounds looking for super projector with sounds anybody out there has one for sale semd email with the name brand condition projector and price for sale kimd rpi edu must have sound capability danny kimd rpi edu
misc.forsale	looking for battletech games interested both the battletech games for the ibm will grateful anymore with information please email you would like transaction thank you
misc.forsale	comics the complete set the buck rogers the century the complete set the adventures buck rogers forsale make reasonable offer email back interested thanks jamal socrates umd edu
misc.forsale	summer sublet available baltimore large bedroom for rent from june aug row house near jhu homewood smokers pets share house with law students professional student wanted bath large kitchen remodeled last summer hardwood floors washer and dryer beautiful details rent utilities located bus lines for more info email rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	summer sublet wanted wanted summer sublet red metro line have own bedroom but can share common areas with others apartment room for less move memorial day weekend through end august smokers email prinaoa yalevm rfp jhuvm
misc.forsale	rom ibm rom drive drive only make offer trade
misc.forsale	brand new ide floppy card for sale article bitzm columbia dsu edu bitzm columbia dsu edu michael bitz writes for sale ide multi card brand new controls ide hard drives floppy drives high low density serial ports parallel port game port all one card measuring this card brand new never been opened much less used all including all shipping charges bitzm columbia dsu edu mike bitz internet bitzm columbia dsu edu research and development bitzm dsuvax dsu edu dakota state university bitnet sdnet bitnet friend mine selling the same thing for new
rec.autos	saturn pricing policy article vir shuksan boeing com fredd shuksan fred dickey writes carolinafan uiuc cka uxa cso uiuc edu wrote have been active defending saturn lately the net and would like state full opinion the subject rather than just reply others points the biggest problem some people seem having that saturn dealers make car think most will agree with that the car comparably priced with its competitors that they aren overpriced compared most cars their class don understand the point arguing over whether the dealer makes the not have never understood what the big deal over dealer profits either the only thing that can figure out that people believe that they minimize the dealer profit they will minimize their total out pocket expenses for the car while this may true some cases not believe that generally true bought saturn january that time based studying car prices decided that there was comparable car that was priced cheaply the saturn sure maybe could have talked the price for some other car the saturn price but out pocket expenses wouldn have been any different what important how much money have left after buy the car reducing dealer profit not the same thing saving money show how reducing dealer profit saves money and believe that important experience has been that reducing dealer profit does not necessarily save money fred say you bought your saturn with dealer profit the dealer profit then you would only paying for the same car isn that saving money moreover saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin then their cars will even better deals say the price saturn was already below market average for the class cars then after they reduce the dealer profit would below market average will attract even more people buy saturns because would save them money force the competitors lower their prices survive now not only will saturn owners benefit from lower dealer profit even the buyers for other cars will pay less isn that saving money doug
rec.autos	are bmw worth the price article apr wdl loral com gwm spl spl loral com gary mahan writes road and track bmw mile road test annual mile those are the numbers was quoting have driven the older model but not the newer sure sounds like they got ringer the drove was definitely faster than that you want quote numbers autofile shows mile quotes car and driver figures and btw these numbers are for the don know how the addition variable valve timing for affects but don take word for drive teddy
rec.autos	headlights problem thanks all you who responded posting the problem with truck headlights low beam problem was loose wire connection was not the fuse minority you suggested thanks again
rec.autos	left turn signal won stop automaticaly the subject says all chev pickup left turn signal does not stop after turning what cause this stop automaticaly this mechanical problem the steering wheel note this truck has after market steering wheel grant installed
rec.autos	what volvo wolfson regatta sps mot com stephen wolfson writes article mar ugle unit oep colargol edb tih oep writes which turns into teenagers car when gets old the average lifelength volvo norway years and sweden years course someone pointed out when saab volvo was running their least years ads that the average milage was significantly less than than the average that but every volvo ever owned has lasted far longer than most other cars volvo miles still the road volvo miles still the road volvo miles still the road and admit the dealer repair cost high but with some mechanical aptitude your own and finding good indi mechanic you can avoid most breakdowns and make the rest cheap the sum total the repairs the car with miles has been mufflers and radiator whoa bad repair record and all these cars are driven fairly hard none them are the head line cars going mph the first two spend lot their operating life with the speedometer pegged and the only reason the doesn has mph speedo what want know have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized someone turbo wagon blowing you away the road what
rec.autos	saturn pricing blatherings mihir pramod shah mps cec wustl edu wrote robert wade writes until and more saturn retailers are built like the same city most medium and large cities have small handful saturn dealers now sacramento has two saturn dealerships mihir shah ralph bean hprnd rose com
rec.autos	radio for toyota tercel looking for replacement radio tape player for toyota tercel standard off the shelf unit fine but every place gone service merchandise etc doesn have car its model application book want just take out the old radio and slide the new with minimal time spent hooking and adjusting the dashboard you have put new unit similar car like hear what brand how easy was the change and any other relevant information please answer via mail thanks tom ostrand tom ostrand mail tjo scr siemens com siemens corporate research phone college road east fax princeton
rec.autos	infiniti thinking about getting infiniti consumer reports ranked high many catagories including highest reliability index for compact cars mitsubushi galant was second followed honda accord couple things though looking around have yet see anyone driving this car see lots honda and toyota there special deal where can get infinity fully loaded dealer cost have check this out and the numbers match they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid version includes dual air bags and want get rid their old guess question this good deal also can anyone give any feedback infiniti thanks carl hoffman the other cars that have test driven and which are the running are mitsubishi galant honda accord and toyota camary
rec.autos	basics about maintenance article apr telxon mis telxon com joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes article piip agate berkeley edu hubertc whistle berkeley edu hung hsien hubert chang writes being new car owner would pretty much like know more about some basics maintaining the cars know the following oil has changed every miles change the oil filter too check tires before going the high way and fill the tank make that monthly more often you know one more your tires has slow leak the tire has leak you should fix what others thank you check all fluids regularly every month check the oil every time you fill with gas doesn work too well the engine hot its more accurate check the oil when the engine cool not when you are gas station craig
rec.autos	integra gsr really about other cars article apr nntpd lkg dec com kenyon xqzmoi enet dec com doug kenyon stardog champion writes great that all these other cars can out handle out corner and out accelerate integra but you got ask yourself one question all these other cars have moonroof with sliding sunshade wimpy pop sunroofs power sliding roofs that are opaque moonroof that can opened the air closed let just light shaded that nothing comes you just got know what important doug integra hahaha sentiments exactly
rec.autos	integra gsr article mwf njcc wisdom bubble org jonc njcc wisdom bubble org cochran writes like add the beretta gtz car which will kick butt anyday and lot cheaper boot will take this one with definate grain salt performance data shows this poster has some proof other than friend blew one away last week want proof here some data acceleration and handling from motor trend apr integra beretta gtz mile acc slalom wrong why don you look again motor trend slalom times they are right along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that are all weather xgtv not mention that the integra rides alot better than beretta your acceleartion times also vary magazine magazine road track and car driver have the for road and track also quarter mile times vary from you can tell exactly the numbers furthermore the integra will definately outrun the beretta the high end car driver and road track have the doing mph and gets there fast the beretta can out handle the integra and can certainly keep with acceleration and the beretta probably has higher top speed due the horsepower advantage torque for the integra for the beretta you always believe those exact numbers why don you drive and see for your self while the has low torqye its high gearing over rpm make for the difference still wouldn call torque moster though the biggest advantage would have the price the integra costs tested motor trend the gtz costs tested the gtz also has standard nicities and airbag and antilock brakes airbag not available the integra and lower models not have abs considering you save almost dollars for the beretta and the quad reliable engine doesn make sense get the integra performance coupe which what people have been trying make out quad reliable yeah what your definition reliable that reliable then its safe say that integra engines general are near perfect not mention hell alot smoother and quieter balance shafts the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down you can rev that car all day everyday and you never blow hose crack the block anything else speak from expierence not saying the quad bad engine but don highlight reliability when you comparing acura engine and while the integra costs alot more better investment since will hold its value considerably much better and does nice job being sporty car and practical the same time note this isn flame the gtz other quad products the berreta nice car and puts out respectable performance and very reasonable price not mention has airbag but start quoting figures from one source isn too reliable read other sources and drive both cars while haven driven gtz have driven gts and grand ams with quad engines they are similair
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time don have list what been said before hopefully not repeating how about horizontally mounted oil filters like ford that matter how hard you try will spill out their half quart the bottom the car when you change them joe lucas stlucas gdwest com standard disclaimers apply general dynamics space systems san diego work something keep busy between ultimate frisbee games
rec.autos	how hard change springs truck article apr michael apple com ems michael apple com michael smith writes does take any peculiar tools remove the rear springs from ford truck naah just coupla nice big bumps
rec.autos	jeep grand toyota runner article seven east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes any reason you are limited the two mentioned they aren really the same point along the suv spectrum not mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and the budget allows the land cruiser any advice how buy land cruiser local toyota dealer says they get two year and want one can just get the waiting list forget about test drive even kicking the tires and they are that rare doubt there much parts inventory hand jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	mgbs and the real world article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes sister has mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its very good shape been bugging her for years last year produced about selling said over and over that she should sell before the car worthless while she maintains that the car may actually increasing value result its limited availability which one right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing pay for old are there lot out the market yes there are still alot mgbs out there the earlier cars pre are usually more desirable due certain things that went with having chrome bumpers ride height generally more power the older cars are appreciating slowly the newer ones seem stable level the moment would require extremely good condition and low miles the car good shape and regular maintenance kept the car should last for long time there are still plenty parts sources ouththere the mgb great fun little car she keeping solely the hopes that going appreciate tell her sell not worth waiting the time would take appreciate real profitable level rick guynn driver soontobe mga mkii rcg zeus tamu edu rebuild complete finished texas university keeper the eternal octagon mgb roadster the marque symbol that have registered soon refuses die honest
rec.autos	advice bmws and winter driving this past winter drove from nyc killington times convertible talk about poor reputation the snow with excellent set snow tires put noika dec and have been sure footed some pretty severe weather conditions ever since plowed through inch snow covered roads effortlessly while other cars have been paralyzed front wheel drive included concentrate more where the rubber meets the road rather than driveability cars snowy conditions drive carefully buy good snow tires and most cars will perform adequately less than ideal conditions aside can praise noika snows enough absolutely the best snow tires have ever driven you live the snow belt yourself favor and get set these next winter tim timothy bigham all opinions expressed above are own lehman brothers inc and should not construed those amex tower world financial center employer new york
rec.autos	wax residue black molding sayeth joseph mazza mazz andrew cmu edu waxed car few months ago with liquid wax and now have whiteish smears where inadvertantly got some wax the black plastic molding tried repeatedly remove the smears with luck the verge replacing the molding altogether nice car armor all removes raindance wax mazda protege black plastic bumpers your mileage may vary given this observation one would well advised take care not get any this probably similar protectants such son gun one paint know that sometimes jaw clicks when eat void where prohibited have you seen this boy lust never sleeps say hurl honey home silver bokonon uucp uunet becker xrtll bokonon silver
rec.autos	who was what miata used the mazda miata sayeth sjwyrick lbl gov steve wyrick anybody keeping track how many these there are far have miata tredia previa sentra maxima altima camry and justy not mention lexus acura and infiniti you apparently including names that are appear derivatives real words english some other language acura infiniti maxima altima which case you missed ones such integra supra allante capri and calibra canada add serenia and precidia you count misspellings add protege and canada vigor how about the forthcoming mondeo given that name north america others might include celica corolla paseo and tercel canada add asu know that sometimes jaw clicks when eat void where prohibited have you seen this boy lust never sleeps say hurl honey home silver bokonon uucp uunet becker xrtll bokonon silver
rec.autos	jeep grand toyota runner article igw world std com edwards world std com jonathan edwards writes considering buying one these two vehicles new want fun drive family vehicle that can through anything the jeep very popular and has the features all wheel drive wheel anti lock roomy passenger cabin but limited cargo with internal spare the toyota aging design with only part time wheel and only rear anti lock and anti lock also has very inconvenient rear gate not mention awkward ingress the passenger cabin any reason you are limited the two mentioned they aren really the same point along the suv spectrum not mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and the budget allows the land cruiser bear mind that all suv purchased never venture off road carefully weigh the trade off between comfort and off road performance when choosing one and realistically decide whether you actually make enough use the off road ability sacrifice some the road comfort john john
rec.autos	geico mechanical breakdown insurance article pbh noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes article apr lds loral com mcculloc sps lds loral com thad mcculloch writes has anyone had any experience with geico extended warranty plan seems slightly less expensive than the normal dealer sponsored policy and once again never buy extended warranties they are complete and total ripoff period you are better off taking your money and putting bank and using that money for repairs many extended warranties never pay have payments etc how many people will actually put that money the bank and keep there for the sole use automotive repair maybe for people who have hard time saving money don want the hassle worrying about paying for everything the extended warranty worth for some people worth others not and for some the peace mind knowing you won have too many unexpected expenses enough you drive lot your basic warranty can little longer than year how many people can make the car payments well large repairs may work for some people andrew andrew bernstein motorola inc there such thing sanity algonquin road and that the sanest fact schaumburg dire straits bernstei next corp mot com next mail
rec.autos	mgbs and the real world sister has mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its very good shape been bugging her for years about selling said over and over that she should sell before the car worthless while she maintains that the car may actually increasing value result its limited availability which one right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing pay for old are there lot out the market mike brookbank mks king north mike mks com director interopen sales mkt waterloo ontario mortice kern systems inc mks canada fax
rec.autos	male female mystery dumbest automotive concepts all time article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen rund writes apparently you not woman husband hates the auto door locks features but forgets that besides families with children woman feels safer car that locks easily addition watching around checking out anyone near when get car never park secluded spot etc have keys ready open the door not fumbling purse looking for them this has thinking there biological reason why women can put their keys their pants pockets like men have two pockets the back each pants put keys one and wallent another many the pockets even have botton them can close them securely everything that much simpler for why can women the same biological not enough room for bigger bottom plus keys and wallet the way they are raised the parents
rec.autos	convertibles was wondering someone could point somewhere could find list and hopefully comparison all the convertibles that are out these days seems like they are making big comeback but not sure where look
rec.autos	toyota wagons has anybody noticed that toyota has uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons tercels corollas camrys have their designers aesthetic sense all dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time cup holders driving importantant enough undertaking cellular phones and mobile fax machines see above vanity mirrors the driver side ashtrays smokers seem think just fine use the road fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	ford probe engine problems one the local dealers has used miles probe the lot with photocopy document taped the window saying the dealership bought the car back from the previous owner because engine noises but that the ford district rep had the car saying those noises were normal thought was worth looking into the car seems otherwise clean and mentioned this worker who proceeded tell horror story about her son probe which had several problems ending with engine noises which she said was something with the heads that ford acknowledged the noise said they were working but didn have cure yet her son traded the car and checked not the same car have some evidence reoccuring problem with the the probe and extension with the madza and anything this love consider buying the turning time for scheduled mid life crisis but hate find out just became the proud owner lemon
rec.autos	integra gsr really about other cars great that all these other cars can out handle out corner and out accelerate integra but you got ask yourself one question all these other cars have moonroof with sliding sunshade wimpy pop sunroofs power sliding roofs that are opaque moonroof that can opened the air closed let just light shaded that nothing comes you just got know what important doug integra
rec.autos	ford explorer need performance axle considering getting ford explorer xlt with and have the following questions all would skiing off roading with need the performance axle limited slip axle its purpose allow the tires act independently when the tires are different terrain need the all terrain tires will the all season good enough for lake tahoe thanks tom tom shou silicon graphics shou asd sgi com shoreline blvd fax mountain view
rec.autos	jack according lojack representative saw recently lojack must installed authorized lojack dealer and placed one roughly spots the car thanks steve att com mantic srmal sure aviad
rec.autos	how hard change springs truck bottom line did and worked some tips and techniques are included here article zzpn constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr michael apple com ems michael apple com michael smith writes does take any peculiar tools remove the rear springs from ford truck this with leaf springs front and rear with big socket and air wrench and floor jack and hydrolic bottle jack can this home found that needed some smaller sockets undo the shocks and can helped the sockets needed were metric exact fit but was able use some sae sockets and are rather close and can fun having canadian ford pictureing this undo bolts put bottle jack the axle and raise the bed frame take stress off the leaf spring undo the end bolts bushings drop the spring turn the bottom leaf connect the spring bolts sounds about right didn have undo the end bolts bushings just the bolts each side and the shock absorber jacking the frame some more had put the spare tire the garage floor and put wooden platform top that get the floor jack high enough raise the frame one talll truck lifted the spring free the axel taking out the block gave enough room undo the pin holding the spring pack together the spring pack was held together with nut top and round head the other end wrench head vice grips worked fine soaked the nut with and came right off flipped the bottom spring and then this nightmare waiting happen easy though physically demanding thing well easier than doing decent trigger job well maybe not that easy but not terribly difficult donno little more sore today than after working foot pipe cheater was real help torque spec for the bolt nuts lbs doesn have that kind torque spec was challenge get the pack bolt back the spring pack squeeze pack with two hands hold bolt with third put nut with fourth while picking wrench and vice grips with fifth and sixth hands used some string tie the pack together while holding the pin for alignment then could let get the nut wrench vice grips getting the pin back lined with the lift block was challenge too until discovered that the axel had tilted and rolled forward one the drivers side bottle jack under the front the differential tilted back line enough for the pin head drop into the right hole the passenger side had wrestle the wheel into rolling forward about inch get things line spent more than hour working getting the pin head into the hole the lift block with levers and ropes and impliments distruction before took break and thought about why wasn lined anymore since had been lined before and didn move something else must have hmmm axle longer constrained not move hmmm move back hmmm after that was all much easier close btw the ride now softer but not quite soft was hoping for least now sits level michael smith ems apple com whatever you can dream you can begin boldness has genius power and magic goethe not responsible nor anyone else everything disclaimed
rec.autos	are bmw worth the price sure sounds like they got ringer the drove was definitely faster than that you want quote numbers autofile shows mile quotes car and driver figures and btw these numbers are for the car and driver rated the after miles last time checked automobile magazine rated new mile gee aint quotiin funner than the dickens sounds like need race let you have the newer version can someone out there lend for day wont hurt promise don know how the addition variable valve timing for affects but don take word for drive actually will take your word refuse test new because love bmw and would probably want buy problem income just doesn support that
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all tim article ppg fvq armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes joes telxon mis telxon com joe staudt writes article phoi armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes stuff deleted the silly thing about this whole argument that most the trunk releases tempted say all but there bound counterexample only operate the car acc running thus you can easily pop the trunk without starting the car most cars the only cars ever seen with this feature have been cars mazda honda and coming soon probe all have cable operated releases camaro had electric hatch release that was thankfully independent the key the ignition the exception the rule mentioned first sentence should probably have said glovebox trunk releases haven encountered any glovebox releases that are cable operated numerous and several ford mercury cars that encountered have electrical releases the glovebox and all the ones seen needed the ignition some degree operate your camaro example noted but since hardtop not big deal never run into convertible with cable operated trunk release agree that such environment cable always active electrical release would rather stupid jim frost jimf centerline com honda has cable release that can locked out with the ignition key the valet key can left with someone and will not unlock the trunk enable the cable release remember mothers corvette that had electronic hatch release located the drivers door which was always active the fact that the car had real trunk makes the security measure beign able dis able the hatch release unnecessary
rec.autos	did drive the left left hand steering wheel placement was not standard until the the driving the right has been standard since standards came into being interestingly chrysler has just begun building right hand drive cars again for export japan
rec.autos	did drive the left desoto first year manufacture was this may indeed have been export special left hand controls were standard here then
rec.autos	infiniti article cup portal com carl hoffman cup portal com writes there special deal where can get infinity fully loaded dealer cost have check this out and the numbers match they are doing this because they are releasing and update mid version includes dual air bags and want get rid their old this really the dealer cost did you get the dealer cost looking the invoice there may factory dealer incentives check this out since have trouble believing that dealer would sell car his cost dealer invoice not necessarily the dealer cost teddy
rec.autos	car order delay article apr skcla monsanto com mas skcla monsanto com writes read article the chicago tribune stating that chrysler having problems addressing the demand for the engine for cars can anyone post how long they are waiting for ordered car how long they have been told they have wait thanks john mas mail address mas skcla monsanto com ordered intrepid jan and haven seen yet called couple weeks ago and was told more weeks probably time call again charles johnson intel corporation supercomputer systems division greenbrier pkwy beaverton phone email cfj ssd intel com
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time well you young fellers won remember but used have side vent front windows until some damn bean counter scrapped them these were separate triangular windows the leading edge the front doors that pivoted outward the rear edge worked like charm yeah loved the vent windows escort hell the only thing liked about the car one the things like see brought back does anyone know they option the new escorts trh
rec.autos	inflation car prices anyone have figures pointers references about how fast much car prices have gone the last decade thanks
rec.autos	just testing hello testing
rec.autos	svx oil change friend brought subaru svx recently had drove for couples times and think its great car esp snow however when she took local subaru dealer for oil change the bill came out about dollars the dealer told because change the oil filter svx necessary disassemble metal cover under the engine and that took hour labour first think are being ripped off she phone dealer toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price there any svx owner out there that has the same problem and the oil change story true then the engineer subaru looks pretty stubid the way the car looks great swd wan
rec.autos	saab mailing list could someone out there please tell how could get onto the saab mailing list specifically need the address and instructions what thanks advance pete
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time yfn ysu edu john daker writes cup holders driving importantant enough undertaking this good idea you can carry your non alcoholic drinks without spilling having someone hold them cellular phones and mobile fax machines see above fax machines yes cellular phones why not get hands free model fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs seemingly unique american luxury cars the big three haven yet realized that the are over any gold trim agree just another display yuppie excess jon dunn
rec.autos	need info mazda test drove mazda this past weekend and liked the dealer offered for this good price any comments general please use email thanks peter att hotsoup peng
rec.autos	integra gsr article apr lehigh edu daz lehigh edu demosthenis zeppos writes article mwf njcc wisdom bubble org jonc njcc wisdom bubble org cochran writes like add the beretta gtz car which will kick butt anyday and lot cheaper boot comparing the gtz and gsr apples oranges somewhat like mustang and crx both have very different ways doing things and ought appeal different buyers don think acura owner would seen dead chevy dealership vice versa stuff deleted are all weather xgtv not mention that the integra rides alot better than integra have seen comes with all season tires the gtz does come with much bigger wheels along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that your acceleartion times also vary magazine magazine road track and car driver have the for road and track the figures are almost certainly bogus and based hot prototype supplied acura the figures are more plausible also quarter mile times vary from sounds reasonable probably faster than regular integras the beretta can out handle the integra and can certainly keep with acceleration and the beretta probably has higher top speed due the horsepower advantage torque for the integra for the beretta you always believe those exact numbers why don you drive and see for your self while the has low torqye its high gearing over the gsr gearing horrible for day day driving needs speed box more than any other modern car essentially regualr integra equals the gsr and the regular integras are very buzzy speed rpm make for the difference still wouldn call torque moster though considering you save almost dollars for the beretta and the quad reliable engine doesn make sense get the integra the only person knew with gtz had bought back lemon was piecve junk but very quick for fwd quad reliable yeah what your definition reliable that reliable then its safe say that integra engines general are near perfect the only gsr owner know had the engine throw rod with less than miles rare screw honda both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the purchase would the gsr craig
rec.autos	mgbs and the real world article apr mks com mike mks com mike brookbank writes sister has mgb she has one from the last year they were produced its very good shape been bugging her for years about selling said over and over that she should sell before the car worthless while she maintains that the car may actually increasing value result its limited availability grass roots motorsport has long article about this month far collectivity speculation concerned they think waste time especially the later rubber bumpered models are the least desirable original model the most the reasons for its low value are easy availability and the fact that just was not very good car craig which one right are there mgb affectionados out there who are still willing pay for old are there lot out the market mike brookbank mks king north mike mks com director interopen sales mkt waterloo ontario mortice kern systems inc mks canada fax
rec.autos	passat again kojo valet phx mcd mot com kojo yeboah writes all those who have passats you recommend using super unleaded just regular unleaded gasoline have been using regular unleaded friend mine has jetta and has always used super unleaded and thinks should using the same however believe the advantages super unleaded for cars and under has been overplayed guess who the companies who sell them because that where they make the most profit ralph nader report and other consumer advocates have the past spoken against those oil companies your passat designed run premium gasoline however the engine electronics will retard the timing that harm wil done the engine with lower octane fuel you will likely however get somewhat more power and fuel mileage especially hot weather out this particular engine you run premium tom neumann deluxe sell volkswagens canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.autos	toyota wagons article apr pmafire inel gov russ pmafire inel gov russ brown writes article news ysu edu yfn ysu edu john daker writes has anybody noticed that toyota has uncanny knack for designing horrible ugly station wagons tercels corollas camrys have their designers aesthetic sense all the new camry wagon may just even uglier than tercel toyota has cornered the market ugly station wagons after seeing the new camry sedan had thought toyota would finally turn out something nice looking the new camry station wagon bears strong resemblance hearse and weird looking one that teddy
rec.autos	photo radar was rec autos frequently asked questions photo radar and mailed tickets make sense all speeding moving violation committed the operator not the owner the owner may rental agency dealer private party government agency long the owner has reason expect the operator will driving illegally unsafely the owner cannot held responsible for what the operator does the car may even have been driven without the owner knowledge consent can believe mailed ticket where the driver not identified would stand court this obviously lazy cynical boneheaded fascist way extort revenue and has nothing with public safety what photo radar units look like also what major cities use jon dunn
rec.autos	most bang for between and your best bet the dodge intrepid with the sohc valve six gets and has hell lot room great styling and abs with four wheel disk breaks the cars won automobile magazines automobile the year award and are quiet impressive
rec.autos	alaska car show peninsula cruisers third annual autofaire what car show for any and all types vehicles including pedal cars where kenai mall kenai alaska when may who peninsula cruisers car club kenai why proceeds this event benefit the cooper landing ambulance corps general this car show open all types cars trucks motorcycles factory and modified mild wild antique special interests race drag mudders just plain ugly this fun event intended for the occassional gear head the most serious gear slammer would like have many entrants possible but please contact for space availability first come first serve all out town entrants can stay right next door the kenai merrit inn for special rate night single double occupancy call the merit you like any further information you can contact the addresses below mel mckay cant drive rebelheart gorgeous supercoupe remember saves lives saves twice many rebelheart too old for some things define bitnet fsmlm alaska too young know define mail fsmlm acad alaska edu which things
rec.autos	was safety from how far can you see car article rvkm plato boeing com simnet plato boeing com mark poulson writes ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes you will surprised the number people who forget their glasses while driving and then there are the people who just plain don get their eyes checked once year someone who has lousy vision can see objects distance without glasses however they are quite fuzzy and may not able make out the details but can certainly tell that something there won argue too much about anything probably one those that think that can have enough safety the roads would gladly sacrifice distractions you call than someone having trouble seeing danger earlier one saved life justifies more than lifetime distractions for and then there dawn and dusk when your eyes have not yet adjusted the poor light and there are those who drive black grey cars and then there the case where you are driving down two way one lane road and someone overtaking cars and coming the opposite direction doesn see you because your lights are not vice versa mph that quite small reaction time but course are too macho think are invincible and can react faster than that only the poor sod who you didn see might not have normal life ever worked out the reaction time previous post and its plenty even for year old grandma long speeds are the mph range less you some other driver going way faster than that then careful always you are responsible for your driving actions you pull out pass and crash into someone for whatever reason its your fault you can problem that may just kill the guy agree that would fault and will have license revoked why might even the gas chamber but the fact still remains that the guy dead someone died because was too stingy put lights see damn thing then you shouldn driving lights fail fallen trees rocks don have lights etc maintain that headlight strength the ratio the probability fallen trees rocks the roads oncoming traffic too low even considered the difference also working what know could happen what might happen running lights are not necessary for motorists who drive around mph may good idea force the running headlights when you turn your windshield wipers but only because some people are too stupid you crash into one those idiots you have fight out court show his neglegence you can even prove just out curiosity how much gas milage you loose when you put your lights and how much you reduce the life your head lamps and what the cost your headlamps anyway mileage certainly reduced but very very small amount probably about watts for head and running lights this extra horsepower that must made the engine may that this will cost you around two gallons year but times million cars that lot gas compared the number gallons gas consumed those million cars miniscule whatever tis pity have share the same roads with person not concerned with safety ssave ole cdac com lamp life measured hours you normally drive half daylight and half night your lamps will have replaced twice often headlamps only cost about for most halogen lamps the cost the individual trivial and not the issue what don like the distractions all these cars with headlights cause don need constantly see the headlights the vehicle behind don need see the headlights every gosh darn car for mile down the road these lit cars make non illuminated things less visible like pedistrians and bikes hopefully not going mandate drl for people and bikes too stream taillights tolerable are the orange front running lights this certainly sufficient for other people see you they look and doesn distract nearly much full power headlights mark
rec.autos	quick question how you take off the driver side door panel from the inside honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want access its pins see only one press button and the rest snug fit ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	clothing was male female mystery dumbest automotive article pima inn gap caltech edu wen king caltech edu wen king writes this has thinking there biological reason why women can put their keys their pants pockets like men have two pockets the back each pants put keys one and wallent another many the pockets even have botton them can close them securely everything that much simpler for why can women the same biological not enough room for bigger bottom plus keys and wallet the way they are raised the parents pulleeze not biology all clothing design women clothing generally designed non functional possible only been the last five years that you could buy women pants with pockets deep enough carry anything previously deep pockets were virtually unknown women clothing skirts generally have better pockets now too dresses espcially fancy dresses are still pretty hopeless often hand driver license over husband dressed out somewhere don have encumbered purse women consistently bought functional clothing and boycotted the manufacturers who refuse make functional women clothing think manufacturers would tend bow market pressures there interesting chapter susan faludi backlash that described what happened the last time clothing manufacturers ignored the need for functional women clothing the manufactuing industry lost millions from woman who would rather buy men clothing with decent pockets and long legs and high waists than women clothing without lmann jjmhome uucp internet laurie mann genie claiming that sex education leads irresponsible sex like claiming that driver education leads car accidents
rec.autos	looking buy dodge stealth have questions article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com haddock writes found mopar spec sheet this weekend model wgt stealth stealth stealth stealth okay take their word for giving every chance retract figures widely known the mustang rated you have advantage over mustang seems that the mustang rated only because ford changed its testing procedures under the older procedures still rates closer that means that the mustang has more and you still haven posted any weight figures for the mustang big threat you are civic acording yeah sure your wet dreams and that probably where you got that second for the stealth check issue strange that you claim have that ahead and check asshole you realize what idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting car drive may stealth automatic for posts now you been harping this may issue car driver without posting any numbers why not because they prove right and you ain got the guts admit yeah thought the sentra really alot quicker than the fwd sports car you are close the sentra look the numbers and report please going play your game way sentra are slow took test drive and took why even the hyundai excel blows doors off any old knows that race and kick your butt blah blah blah let see yep that sounds just like you man just got beavis butthead that you who would buy fwd automatic that costs that capable only and would plainly dusted dunno why did you but why would someone pick the dodge stealth over the nissan sentra all takes one look travis
rec.autos	 article foo brad thone wuvmd writes well there difference don happen have sae manual handy but oil viscosity general decreases with temperature the sae numbers are based typical curve that oils used all have running from say the viscosity room temperature weight down say that room temperature weight for typical weight oil oils that are designed for operation normal temperatures just have weight specification oils that are designed for operation exceedingly cold temperatures have tacked the end winter cold place you stick your car the winter and the summer approximate the appropriate viscosity throughout the year modern multi viscosity oils change viscosity much less with temperature result their viscosity graphs cross over several curves multi vis specification pegs the curve two temperatures normal operating temperature and cold one though can remember the numbers any event the weights indicate significant difference remember that your engine temperature regulated the thermostat and radiator air fins most the time unless you overheat something any weight oil better than oil than very old carbonized oil thin oil won general lubricate well temperature thicker oil will like will lubricate better temperature but not well during startup when most engine wear occurs you planning making long drives the probably fine esp the summer your car but you making short drives stick the don drink soap dilute dilute
rec.autos	looking buy dodge stealth have questions article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com haddock writes article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com haddock writes found mopar spec sheet this weekend model wgt stealth stealth stealth stealth okay take their word for these arethe numbers have been stating the past messages really angers that you insisted you were right and that you had clue what your own car weighed why didn you check when first told you that your figures were implausible giving every chance retract figures widely known the mustang rated you have advantage over mustang seems that the mustang rated only because ford changed its testing procedures under the older procedures still rates closer that means that the mustang has more like hear better explanatin how you come that conclusion from the above data big threat you are civic acording yeah sure your wet dreams and that probably where you got sorry your wrong again you quoted the del sol doing according interestingly the stealth which faster than your does the samerun seconds according kind embarassing isn why didn you check the figures before posting only makes you look stupid when you are caught out twice with your own figures that second for the stealth check issue strange that you claim have that you really should have checked ahead and check asshole you realize what idiot you are for not checking data beforeposting car drive may stealth automatic for posts now you been harping this may issue car driver without posting any numbers why not because they prove right and you ain got the guts admit yeah thought you insist gave you every chance retract but dodge stealth auto does wonder why you couldn find you realize that sentra will run that sentra saturn will run the don you think kind strange that your sports car easily beaten mustang which weights about the same according your numbers has less power and much quicker care explain don abusive just try and come with rational explanation where those went its mystery the sentra really alot quicker than the fwd sports car you are close the sentra look the numbers and report please going play your game way sentra are slow took test drive and took why even the hyundai excel blows doors guess you drove speed and couldn shift craig
rec.autos	storing car long term bought car with defunct engine use for parts for old but still running version the same car the car bought has good tires there anything particular that should store the defunct car long term hate have parts bad someone has told bad for the tires not move the car once while this true need some props take the weight the tires best reply mail getting spotty news delivery kris kugel hico kak kak hico westmark com
rec.autos	did drive the left the reason ask because went classic car meet here the and saw very nice old soto vintage guess with wooden artillery type wheels etc but was right hand drive can believe that desoto produced rhd cars just for the well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used drive the wrong side the road the export market might have been larger then than just the guessing but believe the twenties probably drove mostly down cattle trails and wagon ruts fairly sure that placement the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary the company that time the there was very active good roads movement which had its origins actually the during the bicycle craze picked steam the teens witness the linclon highway association and the highway support act real name something different that first pledged federal aid states and counties build decent roads also the experience widespread use trucks for domestic transport during convinced the government that good raods were crucial our national defense anyway the there were plenty good roads least around urban areas and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside this was the era after all the first auto touring fad the motel the auto camp ground etc two good books the subject spring mind warren belasco america the road title may not exact author and another called the devil wagon god country author forget also any john flink john bell rae auto histories placement the steering wheel being arbitrary the early teens there were virtually american cars that did not have the wheel the left the early days cars had the wheel the left the right and even the middle well sometimes having tiller instead wheel this was standardized fairly early though don know why dan andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides from catastrophe catastrophe whether can comprehend and prove not oswald spengler
rec.autos	any subaru liberty owners out there had subaru liberty station wagon for about months now saying happy with would understatement just great well built handles beautifully plenty power only had off tar once did trip over the mountains narrow windy dirt road often very dodgey parts the subaru did with ease havent had much fun driving car for years any other owners out there steve green hey rocky watch pull rabbit outa hat comms group that trick never works its branch nothin sleeve presto csiro australia doubt about gotta get another hat
rec.autos	difference between lexus series from article apr ucsu colorado edu lorenzo rintintin colorado edu eric lorenzo what the difference between the and seems lexus can stop popping out new models let put like this the only similarity between the three models the liter engine displacement actually the the coupe and the the funky looking new sedan share the same liter inline six and the popular small sedan uses shared with the camry the luxury sports coupe the the new luxury sedan and the the base executive sedan all three look completely different aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	most bang for between and rmt faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes your best bet the dodge intrepid with the sohc valve six gets and has hell lot room great styling and abs with four wheel disk breaks the cars won automobile magazines automobile the year award and are quiet impressive the under though chintan amin the university illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because was human because had goodness because was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	saturn pricing policy brown edu hok chung tsang writes article vir shuksan boeing com fredd shuksan fred dickey writes carolinafan uiuc cka uxa cso uiuc edu wrote the biggest problem some people seem having that saturn dealers make car think most will agree with that the car comparably priced with its competitors that they aren overpriced compared most cars their class don understand the point arguing over whether the dealer makes the not have never understood what the big deal over dealer profits either the only thing that can figure out that people believe that they minimize the dealer profit they will minimize their total out pocket expenses for the car while this may true some cases not believe that generally true bought saturn january that time based studying car prices decided that there was comparable car that was priced cheaply the saturn sure maybe could have talked the price for some other car the saturn price but out pocket expenses wouldn have been any different what important how much money have left after buy the car reducing dealer profit not the same thing saving money show how reducing dealer profit saves money and believe that important experience has been that reducing dealer profit does not necessarily save money fred say you bought your saturn with dealer profit the dealer profit then you would only paying for the same car isn that saving money yes but the point that prices are competetive saturn may well selling car intended giving the dealer profit but since comperable honda with profit more expensive may well worth buy the saturn moreover saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin then their cars will even better deals say the price saturn was already below market average for the class cars then after they reduce the dealer profit would below market average will attract even more people buy saturns because would save them money force the competitors lower their prices survive now not only will saturn owners benefit from lower dealer profit even the buyers for other cars will pay less not necessarily seems that saturn salesdroids who don make commision whereas their counterparts other dealerships generally make more per hour whatever this means that saturn doesn give the profit their employees through commision which taken out per car profits they just pass along less pressureing salesmen women isn that saving money maybe maybe not depends accounting practices rather pay more for dealer service that doesn cut corners contain costs doug cka carolina blue honda civic chintan amin the university illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because was human because had goodness because was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	thinking about buying intrepid good bad idea thinking buying new dodge intrepid has anyone had any experiences that they like share thanks bobc
rec.autos	quick question article foo ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how you take off the driver side door panel from the inside honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want access its pins why are you posting this tripe rec autos don drink soap dilute dilute
rec.autos	spark plug question article mgolden cwis mgolden cwis unomaha edu brian golden writes the nice thing about real platinum plugs that you don have change them very often all think like miles they might cost each but they would save for themselves the long run bird manual says replace the platinum plugs every wal mart has autolite platinum plugs for each are these real platinum plugs had bosch platinums fiesta and dad had his bronco note the keyword had they didn last very long much less than before they had replaced agree that they weren the greatest james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	did drive the left article yfkbjqs tfo andrew cmu edu daniel holbrook andrew cmu edu writes stuff about rhd desoto deleted well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used drive australians still drive the wrong side the road believe sweden changed the way heard was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday the wrong side the road the export market might have been larger then than just the craig
rec.autos	quick question newsgroups rec autos rec autos subject quick question summary expires sender reply cunixa columbia edu constantino tobio followup distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how you take off the driver side door panel from the inside honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want access its pins see only one press button and the rest snug fit ssave ole cdac com quick question why are you posting this newsgroup newsgroups rec autos rec autos subject quick question summary distribution world organization columbia university keywords newsgroups rec autos rec autos newsgroups rec autos rec autos subject quick question summary expires references apr ole cdac com sender reply cunixa columbia edu constantino tobio followup distribution organization columbia university keywords removing panels article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how you take off the driver side door panel from the inside honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want access its pins see only one press button and the rest snug fit ssave ole cdac com quick question why are you posting this newsgroup constantino tobio columbia edu tremble you weaklings cower fear your ruler land sea and air immense girth erect stand tall nuclear murderer polaris megadeth rust peace
rec.autos	saturn puzzled its pricing article apr cbfsb att com ykhsu cbnewsf att com yung kao hsu writes the person who started out this subject the question really not about dealer profit but the amount money for the type car settled with new subaru wagon with the similar amount money saturn dealer asked for know model but think got better car though have adjust initial idea why getting new car today during conversion with friend learned rejected saturn for ford tarurs only costed him little bit more than may wrong but loaded tarus beats saturn agree that fully loaded would come close price lower end ford taurus fully loaded taurus the other hand would still substantially more expensive than even the most glitzy fully loaded would run somewhere around while fully loaded taurus would somewhere around the range base taurus believe might start around course there the taurus sho which can push you really try but this totally different car than your mainstream taurus sedan your statement was not entirely faulty just little inaccurate can see saturn better value and that why was puzzled its pricings did not spend much time getting our deals being better informed has its advantages well that least you not bitching about dealer profits like some the other netters are you seem have rationally picked out the car that best for you the loyale aging design that about replaced the impreza wagon you probably got good deal one the last ones then again may wrong yung kao hsu mihir shah mps cec wustl edu
rec.autos	integra for sale integra for sale speed sunroof rear spoiler new tires miles best offer call email att hotsoup peng
rec.autos	integra gsr article apr lehigh edu daz lehigh edu demosthenis zeppos writes why don you look again motor trend slalom times they are right along with the integra and the car does that with small inch tires that are all weather xgtv not mention that the integra rides alot better than beretta came with xgt and they are not all weather tires took out right front bumper sliding packed snow not ice before learned this fact immediately bought xgt which are definately all weather carrera walk everyday has xgt even the michelin dealer where bought new tires said the were made out different rubber that gets really hard and slick when the weather gets near feezing said only try sell those tires during the winter were texas and not colorado thanks eric inactive lifestyle eric lorenzo violates our genetic warranty lorenzo rintintin colorado edu not excercise not also spot ucsu fully human keith johnsgard
rec.autos	awd bmw any truth the rumor awd series for believe this info was published either popular science autoweek couple months ago also friend told that bmw used make awd called the appreciate any info about this car too thanks thanks tim
rec.autos	saturn performance was saturn puzzled its pricing article fjdcfu kap andrew cmu edu jason roth andrew cmu edu writes can imagine any civic saturn owners flex there egos stop light races generates much excitement two nerds challenging each other game one one basketball the does about note that this closer than paseo storm pseudo sporty cars that ridiculous comparison know but the point that saturns and high end civics for that matter accelerate just fine fact better than most unimproved muscle cars the great but tied tons just doesn that quick saturns the other hand use tied lbs with some short gearing move very quickly off the line anyway while your time consistent with most car magazines and reports saw the pbs motorweek show clock speed seconds sure that most owners will very lucky get this speed but seconds still astonishingly fast for small door new civic runs about seconds not mistaken most cars this class are lucky the second range mihir shah
rec.autos	awd bmw europe you can buy with computer controlled diffs rather than the horrid viscous coupled ones the outgoing eliot
rec.autos	did drive the left article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes deleted lines well sweden and australia and lord knows wherever else used drive australians still drive the wrong side the road believe sweden changed the way heard was that they swapped all the traffic signs around one sunday live sweden remember the day perfectly well changed side sep don remeber the exactly time but was the night the big cities like stockholm gothenburg all trafic was forbidden exept busses and taxis during the whole weekend the day was sunday and everything was prepared before before the day was told follow the yellow lines the road and after was the white one that matters the signs with arrows was prepared with left mode label that was torn off that night reveal the new right mode arrow the year after iceland also changed about cars before the day hoegertrafik hoeger swedish and stands for right practically all cars already had their steering wheels the left side even the imported cars from had the wheel the right side last have cars with the wheels the right side more contries that uses the left side japan tanzania think new zeeland how about south africa btw some sais that the left side the right side because ivanhoe and other knights meet the left when they fight tournaments deleted lines kent gabrin celsiustech systems thinking not great jaerfaella sweden oliver berendinus bumble will try kega celsiustech company sold again former name was nobeltech
rec.autos	what volvo and all these cars are driven fairly hard none them are the head line cars going mph the first two spend lot their operating life with the speedometer pegged and the only reason the doesn has mph speedo what want know have all you people who hate volvos been traumatized someone turbo wagon blowing you away the road what turbo was good for mph useful for blowing away beetles though believe the beetle corners better can say without any doubt that have never been blown away any volvo ever been blocked into few car parks though shit head volvo owners who only thought they few minutes this does not happen with the owners any other makes car not sure how long the small shit box volvos last too damn long the worst car ever drove was hired power handling and ride was reminiscent something from the without the character the only ceased production couple years back only been passenger the big volvos but that was enough ought for test drive because they offer some neat gifts
rec.autos	anti theft devices article rphroy gmr com rhaar gmr com bob haar writes article kocrsv delcoelect com jdmooney kocrsv delcoelect com john mooney writes someone writes btw somebody stole the front grille off beat nissan sentra few weeks ago couldn believe just driving around without now years ago brother lived rough area left his nova parked the street front his house for few days one day went move back into the driveway wouldn start seems some industrious fool needed nova gas tank the fool found one under brothers car the engines beatles are quite easy remove without entering the car even opening the engine compartment how would you like find that your car wouldn start because the engine was stolen would probobly feel hell lot poorer gas tank about junkyard engine more seriously though other brother darrell left his the same street someone stole the radiator out try finding radiator junkyard dare you john mooney delco electronics general motors jdmooney kocrsv delcoelect com opinions expressed are mine not necessarily
rec.autos	bullet proof luxury sedans article pnigoinn senator bedfellow mit edu chsu mtl mit edu charles hsu writes interested find out there any domestic car manufacturer especially and ford which produces bullet proof luxury sedans understand caddy working one double battery super high perf engine more gauges bit stretched etc lots communication equipment the works color selection limited though the problem that the guy penn avenue about get pres clinton last time was lincoln this time caddy just wondering this called bullet proof perhaps reinforced windows special materials for the body engine etc luxury car lincoln and cadillac models readily available the public not knowledge know does conversion work for things like hot climates the chevy caprices sold the middle east but things like that are always done third parties not the manufacturer maybe you will need buy specific package that has beefed everything perhaps the police cruiser package the caprice crown vic and start from there have through any special dealership obtain these cars would really like hear from anyone who has experience with the bullet proof cars and wuz drivin along armored seville sts and this punk pulls out nowhere with rpg rocket propelled grenade but the bulletproof windshield stopped him don think many people the net have need for bulletproof cars check with local armored service companies security bodyguard places they know best think your average luxury car dealer will have coronary you told them take the blue caprice with options fuzzy dice power everything and armor any information regarding the dealers and after market shops that have bullet proof lincoln and cadillac greatly appreciated you may email chsu mtl mit edu post the message this newsgroup you believe other netters might interested well btw same information mercedes benz bmw lexus and infiniti luxury sedans needed well you have believe article the conversion process appeared the car press within the last few months spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo different kind disclaimer
rec.autos	top reasons why love not for the humor impaired article wjgq constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes six years you are nearing the end the design life the vehicle when everything should breaking that point the driving habits make more difference than the actual reliability the vehicle the data becomes unreliable for drawing conclusions bad driving habits can damage car couple months not years that were not the case everyone would driving fleet rental solds and while you are considering things factors stat terms how about city highway driving ratios owner dealer service extreme weather environment adherence maintenance schedules whether the car has ever been accident number different drivers the same car family whether the car garaged warmed spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo different kind disclaimer
rec.autos	most bang for between and rec autos cpkjp latech edu kevin parker writes like get some feedback car with most bang for the buck the price range looking for car with enough civility driven every day even long trips but when hit the gas want feel some acceleration handling important also are reliability and pretty low maintenance costs stylish appearance nice but don want car that all show and not much even though many the imports are fast don really want turbo and never have cared for the song sung four clyinder prefer for the engine you have any suggestions kevin parker there only one car that really fits your needs spelled liter mustang
rec.autos	 additional data point have run castrol exclusively the following cars rabbit scirocco rabbit bus beetle bus jetta gli never had oil related problem disclaimer gets mighty hot down here kenneth finnegan navo navy mil
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time dunnjj ucsu colorado edu dunn jonathan james writes yfn ysu edu john daker writes cup holders driving importantant enough undertaking this good idea you can carry your non alcoholic drinks without spilling having someone hold them agree six hour long stretches behind the wheel really make thirsty especially for something with caffeine consider failing car that has cup holder nor anywhere put cup holder jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	what volvo boyle bbsls bnr ian boyle writes turbo was good for mph useful for blowing away beetles though believe the beetle corners better can say without any doubt that have never been blown away any volvo ever been blocked into few car parks though shit head volvo owners who only thought they few minutes this does not happen with the owners any other makes car not sure how long the small shit box volvos last too damn long the worst car ever drove was hired power handling and ride was reminiscent something from the without the character the only ceased production couple years back only been passenger the big volvos but that was enough ought for test drive because they offer some neat gifts well have admit that the most disgusting feature volvo their marketing looks like volvo uses something like you dare risk your family any car attitude which quite annoying the long run but now volvo has produced new good car the volvo front drive valves motor completely new chassis etc even the british magazine car liked and believe that quite much for volvo and the american magazine road track said that this not your uncle olof car and positive sense but any case still like own the estate strong tank like chassis inline six rear drive btw the only car drivers who have blocked are land rover jaguar drivers what you mean what drive cheapo japanese toyota course not have money for car like bmw merc jaguar saab volvo etc had the money would have bad problems deciding which one buy
rec.autos	photo radar was rec autos frequently article viewlogic com brad buck viewlogic com bradford kellogg writes article mar cabot balltown cma com welty cabot balltown cma com richard welty writes what band radar where used should radar detector able handle band has recently been made available the fcc for use the called photo radar installations these installations low powered beam aimed across the road degree angle the direction traffic and picture taken vehicles which the radar unit determines have been violation the speed limit tickets are mailed the owner the vehicle because the low power and the degree angle many people believe that radar detector cannot give reasonable warning band radar unit although some manufacturers radar detectors have added such capability anyway the number locales where photo radar use limited and some question the legality such units best advice learn what photo radar units look like and keep track where they are used else don speed photo radar and mailed tickets make sense all speeding moving violation committed the operator not the owner the owner may rental agency dealer private party government agency long the owner has reason expect the operator will driving illegally unsafely the owner cannot held responsible for what the operator does the car may even have been driven without the owner knowledge consent can believe mailed ticket where the driver not identified would stand court this obviously lazy cynical boneheaded fascist way extort revenue and has nothing with public safety had those photo radar things here sweden while ago there was lot fuzz about them and lot sabotage too spray can with touch paint can lot good eventually they had drop the idea there were lot court cases where the owner the car could prove didn drive the time speeding especially recall case where eventually proved car thief that had stolen car and made false plates ofcourse chose license number identical car the photo seemed correct conclosion photo radar sucks every way you look markus
rec.autos	clifford delta car alarm just found great deal clifford delta car alarm installed comes with glass break sensor motion detector and shock detector does anyone have one these alarms are they any good from the looks its about the best the market for the price also sale that another reason get think saving almost any opinions eric lucas
rec.autos	jeep grand toyota runner article seven east sun com jfox hooksett east sun com writes any reason you are limited the two mentioned they aren really the same point along the suv spectrum not mention price range how about the explorer trooper blazer montero and the budget allows the land cruiser any advice how buy land cruiser local toyota dealer says they get two year and want one can just get the waiting list forget about test drive even kicking the tires and they are that rare doubt there much parts inventory hand land crusier just simply nice with shit load power and room fully stocked cost think worth the money only problem when you get into accident doesn usually break down unless you forget get oil change for miles something stupid like this body parts and other parts are very hard locate parts are over priced also one friend had accident past snow storm and still waiting for front bumper and passenger side fender well you test drive land cruiser all other suv look like toys one magazine writer called land bruiser you have spare for suv get land cruiser and forget lange rover sang
rec.autos	integra gsr article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes miles rare screw honda both the gtz and gsr are flawed cars the performance enthusiasts would take the gtz and the purchase would the gsr the purchase would the ford probe john john nielsen magnus consultant you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened other people wasn the black adder
rec.autos	top reasons why love not for the humor impaired chints iscs nus writes here are another ten reasons why should all love car salesmen love their new car buying service car salesmen rec auto readers turned into expert statistics critics lucky owners unreliable cars who say mine never had problem those same owners joining the sceptics few months later and later subscribing and taking soooo seriously and later buying idealized family sedan and number the spectacle the religious fervour the true believers tom haapanen tomh metrics com software metrics inc waterloo ont stick your index fingers into both corners your mouth now pull that how the corrado makes you feel car january
rec.autos	experience opinions sought diesel engines article hydra gatech edu jkg jmp com writes apologies this faq there faq posting for this group infrequent reader rec autos can remember the market for used chevy suburban and have observed that prices for models with diesel engines run about less than comparable models with gas engine there has reason for this yes there consumer confusion the early with the fuel crisis etc everyone wanted better fuel mileage diesel fuel was the cheapest fuel available and usually provides better mileage than comparable gasoline engines decided conver their gas engine into diesel engine think was liter big mistake the engine was not redesigned but converted the engine could not handle the higher compression etc lots problems with these cars this thew big red flag the casual observer don buy diesel they are bad this was gross generalization ask yourself this question your livelihood depended driving lots would you use dependable undependable but cheaper the short run vehicle what greyhound busses have them trailer trucks even train locomotives are these gasoline engines they are diesel tractor trailer truck manufacturers provide mile warrantee with they vehicles own diesel suburban the diesel great engine just keeps going was more expensive when new than the gasoline engine vehicle was the only problem with diesel engines that when they need rebuilt they are expensive gas engine you will pay about for rebuild diesel about but then again the diesel engine lasts about twice long and gets about better mileage carburator for gasoline engine costs about rebuild less rebuild the fuel injection pump diesel will cost about more but then again you never need tune you looking rebuilt say you got great deal check see the fuel injection pump was rebuilt also good luck
rec.autos	necessity fuel injector cleaning dealership article apr cbnewsl att com prm cbnewsl att com paul mount writes your experience how true that fuel injector cleaning will much more good than just using detergent gas while agree that clogged fuel injector would darken day how clogged they get and good price can myself buying can what and doing what fuel injector cleaning the dealer probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping bottle fuel injector cleaner and sending you your merry way poorer kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for just because you dealer sez you need don mean necessarily suspicious jim grey jwg acd acd com
rec.autos	rfd rec autos saab request for discussion this request for discussion the creation newsgroup concerning saab cars will allow participaants exchange information purchasing maintaining repairing and outfitting saabs group name rec autos saab status unmoderated rationale there may enough people with saab cars interested buying saab interested knowing more about saabs for any reason justify such new newsgroup the recent growth the net could improve the turnaround time between posing question and receiving answers from the community discussion comments this proposed new newsgroup should posted the usenet newsgroup news groups the reader not able comments may mailed the proposer the address below voting problems arise voting will start month from the posting date this rfd proposer tommy reingold tommy boole att com tommy reingold bell labs holmdel tommy boole att com att boole tommy
rec.autos	audiwatch update article apr news brandeis edu andyh chaos brandeis edu andrew huang writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes powell interlan interlan com glen powell writes the kind corporate raiding apparently undertaken shameful agreed however the particular execs had been working with iggy for many years and had left europe detroit with their raison andy was out date stealing execs directly from opel independent lopez shameful andy
rec.autos	quick question article apr ole cdac com ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes how you take off the driver side door panel from the inside honda prelude the speaker went scratchy and want access its pins there something going here seems that once month the group must have get specific detailed question about hondas would like ask that next month get one about hyundai instead honda thank you andy
rec.autos	male female mystery dumbest automotive concepts all time bets chester ksu ksu edu beth schwindt writes this has thinking there biological reason why women can put their keys their pants pockets like men have two pockets the back each pants put keys one and wallent another many the pockets even have botton them can close them securely everything that much simpler for why can women the same biological not enough room for bigger bottom plus keys and wallet the way they are raised the parents found that has with the way women clothes are made you put keys the front pocket women jeans slacks you get bulge that also tends make impossible sit down because they stick you constantly ditto the back pocket also try looking the back pockets women jeans and compare them the back pockets men jeans they are usually you buy jeans that you expect last for any length time about half the size there flat out isn room for wallet bunch keys besides which where would men put all their crap their wives didn carry purses the same place single men wallet back pocket comb other back pocket keys front pocket knive other from pocket pen shirt pocket front pants pocket married men start carrying around bunch stuff keep there women happy beth mark
rec.autos	performance new mustangs does anyone know the performance ratings for mustang like the time mile and top end also can you tell which magazine where these come from can look them possable you could the year and month and eveen page you have thanks doug
rec.autos	made suv mercedes benz announced yesterday its plans begin building sport utility vehicles the they are targeted the jeep grand cherokee and will reportedly sell for less than did anyone see picture the wagon gelaendewagen currently available europe and the grey market entirely new vehicle any details would appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory penn state
rec.autos	made suv article rsm psuvm psu edu rsm psuvm psu edu writes mercedes benz announced yesterday its plans begin building sport utility vehicles the they are targeted the jeep grand cherokee and will reportedly sell for less than did anyone see picture the wagon gelaendewagen currently there picture the may edition european car although may not the shelf yet some things that the article says prototype has front wheel drive first front drive for mercedes since the beginning wwii wheelbase seater they claim that the price will about the same renault espace chrysler voyager looking the picture slightly disguised looks like the ford aerostar available europe and the grey market entirely new vehicle any details would appreciated dick meyer applied research laboratory penn state larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need explain you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway
rec.autos	 article jgladu jgladu bcm tmc edu grungy john gladu writes article apr tulane edu finnegan invader navo navy mil kenneth finnegan wrote additional data point have run castrol exclusively the following cars rabbit scirocco rabbit bus beetle bus jetta gli never had oil related problem add mine that list superbeetles bugs dddpanel cringe toyota tercel wife car honest still chicken about running the vanagon that got castrol don understand this last statement about the vanagon our vanagon owner manual recommends ari ollikainen former fanatic bug bug porschepower porsche bugauto stick camper camper westfalia vwporsche westfalia vanagon westfalia and now only vanagoncarat
rec.autos	honda crx for sale friend david gordon wants sell his honda some the details car are follows five speed cassette stereo rear window defroster excellent condition asking obo please call him
rec.autos	necessity fuel injector cleaning dealership article apr acd acd com jwg sedv acd com jim grey writes article apr cbnewsl att com prm cbnewsl att com paul mount writes your experience how true that fuel injector cleaning will much more good than just using detergent gas while fuel injector cleaning the dealer probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping bottle fuel injector cleaner and sending you your merry way poorer kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for this should not the case they are all reputable fuel injector cleaning done properly with can injector cleaner solvent which hooked the fuel system under high pressure the car actually run the solvent during the cleaning process the equipment properly this pricey and generally not something the average home mechanic has the solvent itself not very expensive and you could probably make hose fit your system and yourself but didn tell you that not many tank cleaners are worth wasting your money there has been discussion these products here from time time and chevron techron not pro gard with techron generally regarded the best however bit more than bottle imho will not substitute for proper injector cleaning they are really crudded you have decide the price better deal than spending your time and buying equipment scott keller the agricultural group monsanto company sekell monsanto com wch packet wch pfx usa
rec.autos	used taurus sho purchase quoting jeffrey nucciarone nucci microwave gsfc nasa gov article skates gsfc nasa gov pertinent part considering buying used taurus sho the car question has miles took for test drive the other day and few questions came second there anything should specifically look for sho this vintage anything should specifically ask abt brakes cluthch etc noticed the drive the clutch engagemen point seemed little high since all other cars are auto tragics not sure abt this point had foot firmly planted the brake when started there was bit pop the pedal soon after the engine started this also occured few bird test drove was this the abs self test brake rotors and the clutch are the main things there has been clutch replacement program you might check see the car still eligible change well worth making you can also swap the cruddy cable shifter for the newer rod shifter also change worth making but that cost you some brakes usually one wibble wobble startup that probably normal didn know they had self test that interesting what kind tires does the car have winqwk for good time dial your sho
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time ford has vent windows operated crank just like window only opened out like normal vent window dad bronco and pretty much every truck seen that worth riding has vent windows does that mean that not young feller anymore james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center don understand the fascination with vent windows they create tremendous turbulence and noise that makes even simple connversation impossible speeds above mph the current flow throuh ventilation designed right are far more superior bijan
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time not exactly dumb but who remebers the tachometer the firebird bulging out the hood right front the driver neat place but love know what the elemnts did its internals after few years also does the speedomete pointer many cars have feet long bijan
rec.autos	was safety from how far can you see car ssave ole cdac com the devil reincarnate writes these lit cars make non illuminated things less visible like pedistrians and bikes hopefully not going mandate drl for people and bikes too well drl are already mandatory for motorcycles jon hacker get the march beta rom caltech pasadena for hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu call ibm
rec.autos	top reasons why love not for the humor impaired article apr news brandeis edu andyh chaos brandeis edu andrew huang writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus writes here are another ten reasons why should all love the spectacle macho real men who would never bother read the magazine but are more than apt criticize but that the point read least did then found that their recommendations were useless and uninformed then write lists the flame war easy start because they are wrong and claim right and thorough andy you are right name few good examples that were brought john john nielsen magnus consultant you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened other people wasn the black adder
rec.autos	car insurance help article news claremont edu ochaine jarthur claremont edu ollie north chaine writes help car insurance has been cancelled for the second time row still haven gotten touch with agent from aaa because she out for the week but mom said that got call saying that insurance was going cancelled because accident not even fender bender that was never declared anything besides the fact that have idea how they found out about this the only other thing that could bug them that have ticket but told them about and they said that wasn problem another insurance know will end paying more already shopped around for this one and can afford pay for the insurance especially since still haven gotten the the two insuance companies are supposed refund just got new saturn and can afford the car payments and the insurance but bought the car having gotten quote from state farm which they later went back please help what legal rights have can make state farm who originally gave the quote give that rate they made mistake after signed all the papers did not give any false evidence how can get money back for the car can pay for the insurance deperate ollie just went through this mess new jersey still waiting for refund well namely that the original company made mistake and left the lurch recourse was through insurance dept office consumer protection you should have similar office your state make use good luck chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec pending delivery agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.autos	top reasons why love not for the humor impaired article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus writes here are another ten reasons why should all love car salesmen love their new car buying service and later buying idealized family sedan and number the spectacle the religious fervour the true believers the spectacle macho real men who would never bother read the magazine but are more than apt criticize hey macho real man and read can criticize all want especially since pay for the publication they accept outside advertising don you know john nielsen magnus consultant you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened other people wasn the black adder relying consumer reports pick your automobiles like letting field stream select your living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil
rec.autos	car order delay read article the chicago tribune stating that chrysler having problems addressing the demand for the engine for cars can anyone post how long they are waiting for ordered car how long they have been told they have wait ordered mine december got nine weeks later but the dealer said that new orders were being held didn expect see any more engine lhs for awhile andrew klossner andrew frip tek com
rec.autos	male female mystery dumbest automotive concepts all time article tkinnbek chester ksu ksu edu bets chester ksu ksu edu beth schwindt writes besides which where would men put all their crap their wives didn carry purses beth wife rarely carries purse all her crap ends pockets ron deblock rdb homxb att com that number rdb not letter bell labs somerset usa
rec.autos	illegal tint windows know long shot but maybe someone went through this and will have some comments share the story this bought car out state and trying get the safety inspection pennsylvania the problem that the car has aftermarket tint all windows except the windshield the tint rather weak and you can clearly see the inside the car through the tint the inspection garage said that they won pass unless get waiver from the state police went the state police the officer told that aftermarket tint illegal and can get waiver only for pre car for medical reason asked him show the section the vehicle code that says illegal showed and the paraghaph said that you can have tint you can see the inside the car because the tint when told him that you can fact see the inside very well shut the book and said just illegal and fact can have someone give you ticket for right now well won argue with that since the vehicle code says long you can see through the tint like keep read the vehicle code the library also like get some sort paper from the police that says can get the inspection and that won get trouble for the tint later also wouldn mind registering complaint against that officer really pissed off does anyone have any experience getting that sort paper from the police especially pennsylvania does anyone have any experience registering complaint against officer called the station later today but they basically said there place where could register complaint against officer and decide keep the tint and get ticket anyway how much chance stand succesfully appeal the ticket court any comments about will welcome michal
rec.autos	top reasons why love not for the humor impaired article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes blah blah blah you are right name few good examples that were brought let create new group rec autos right its not yes yeah father can lick your father eliot
rec.autos	new saturn argument article noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes how about this argue about why does the have much lower base price than the over cheaper forget the exact amount doesn cost more have the extra doors windows locks motors etc that are the door perhaps just marketing deal people want the door they will pay the extra the has shorter wheel base than the just thought ithink your right though james lee bell labs murray hill room att conceps jwl
rec.autos	chevelle forsale don want sell this car but need money for college chevelle super sport rebuilt four speed bolt positrac numbers match original miles rust looks and runs excellent best offer call dennis email dennisk uoregon edu
rec.autos	top reasons why love not for the humor impaired article apr tulane edu finnegan navo navy mil writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes article apr metrics com tomh metrics com tom haapanen writes chints iscs nus writes here are another ten reasons why should all love car salesmen love their new car buying service and later buying idealized family sedan and number the spectacle the religious fervour the true believers the spectacle macho real men who would never bother read the magazine but are more than apt criticize hey macho real man and read can criticize all want especially since pay for the publication they accept outside advertising don you know john nielsen magnus consultant you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened other people wasn the black adder relying consumer reports pick your automobiles like letting field stream select your living room furniture kenneth finnegan navo navy mil one should ever rely just magazine determine what car they buy don care what magazine btw subscribe three other auto rags just think getting bum rap these macho men from hell who think real men should read statements like what you said above have meaning people keep saying only good for dishwashing detergent you said relying consumer reports like and that all they say there were critical themsevles they are maybe there would some real content john john nielsen magnus consultant you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened other people wasn the black adder
rec.autos	impreza altima what friend mine cnsidering buying new car and considering the subaru impreza the nissan altima right now which these two cars would you recommend definately want airbag and abs and room for tall people and long legs you have other suggestions for cars under after dealing interested you opinions well please send replies sem postoffice mail cornell edu tthis address thanks scott
rec.autos	advise needed buying automobile from thwang mentor purdue edu tommy hwang subject advise needed buying automobile search dependable automobile purchase below are its requirements above most the cars you mentioned are below smaller than engine tony name antonio balsamo company digital equipment corp shrewsbury mass work mail balsamo stargl enet dec com
rec.autos	integra gsr quad reliable yeah what your definition reliable that reliable then its safe say that integra engines general are near perfect not mention hell alot smoother and quieter balance shafts the acura has the engine wins the reliablity contest hands down you can rev that car all day everyday and you never blow hose crack the block anything else speak from expierence not saying the quad bad engine but don highlight reliability when you comparing acura engine and while the integra costs alot more couple things blowing hose doesn speak engine reliability and while true that quad have problem with head gasket leaks that was design flaw the gasket and has been corrected also know pontiac replacing head gaskets that leak for free for year miles other than that have found quad completely solid and the direct ignition system means wires rotor rotor cap ever deal with also hydrolic lifters mean valve adjustments ever not badmouthing the integra engine just think you are going overboard slamming the quad you are quite correct that the integra engine quieter although would not say smoother quad loves rev especially the high end you have any evidence blocks cracking quad have not heard this
rec.autos	most bang for between and article oasys navy mil tobias oasys navy mil steve tobias writes rec autos cpkjp latech edu kevin parker writes like get some feedback car with most bang for the buck the price range looking for car with enough civility driven every day even long trips but when hit the gas want feel some acceleration handling important also are reliability and pretty low maintenance costs stylish appearance nice but don want car that all show and not much even though many the imports are fast don really want turbo and never have cared for the song sung four clyinder prefer for the engine you have any suggestions kevin parker there only one car that really fits your needs spelled liter mustang not sorry said cvility long trips reliability and low maintenance cost
rec.autos	necessity fuel injector cleaning dealership article apr acd acd com jwg sedv acd com jim grey writes article apr cbnewsl att com prm cbnewsl att com paul mount writes your experience how true that fuel injector cleaning will much more good than just using detergent gas while agree that clogged fuel injector would darken day how clogged they get and good price can myself buying can what and doing what fuel injector cleaning the dealer probably little more than them opening your gas tank dumping bottle fuel injector cleaner and sending you your merry way poorer kmart and buy the cleaner yourself for personally wouldn use the product from kmart knew about this previously but this past weekend pbs motorweek pat goss their resident tech type discussed these products and recommends not using them the non isopropyl alcohlo based injector cleaners supposedly only the isopropyl based cleaners actually remove moisture from your fuel tank they clean your injectors and although the others ethyl based clean injectors they also cause rubber components the fuel system deteriorate and they don mix well with water help remove from the fuel system use product recommended called products inc cost more about but supposed the job without the potential harmful side effects and its results are supposed last from miles have also used chevron techtrolene can say that have noticed any difference using either since only use these product preventative maintenance item just because you dealer sez you need don mean necessarily suspicious jim grey jwg acd acd com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need explain you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway
rec.autos	svx oil change article undergrad math uwaterloo swdwan napier uwaterloo donald wan writes friend brought subaru svx recently had drove for couples times and think its great car esp snow however when she took local subaru dealer for oil change the bill came out about dollars the dealer told because change the oil filter svx necessary disassemble metal cover under the engine and that took hour labour first think are being ripped off she phone dealer toronto but found out the they are charging roughly the same price there any svx owner out there that has the same problem and the oil change story true then the engineer subaru looks pretty stubid the way the car looks great labour prices for car service are very expensive toronto compared other parts ontario for example there are places ottawa that still charge only hour seen couple places charging hour the cheapest heard toronto hour swd wan doug zolmer internet dwjz bnr disclaimer opinions only bell northern research ltd ottawa ontario canada conform moooo
rec.autos	 zowie daedalus stanford edu craig powderkeg deforest writes you planning making long drives the probably fine esp the summer your car but you making short drives stick the several years ago was having trouble with the rings sticking the diesel they traced cause the use oil they would not honor warranty work was used memory serves was though mark
rec.autos	male female mystery dumbest automotive concepts all time article pima inn gap caltech edu wen king caltech edu wen king wrote article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen iscnvx lmsc lockheed com sharen rund writes apparently you not woman husband hates the auto door locks features but forgets that besides families with children woman feels safer car that locks easily addition watching around checking out anyone near when get car never park secluded spot etc have keys ready open the door not fumbling purse looking for them this has thinking there biological reason why women can put their keys their pants pockets like men have two pockets the back each pants put keys one and wallent another many the pockets even have botton them can close them securely everything that much simpler for why can women the same biological not enough room for bigger bottom plus keys and wallet the way they are raised the parents women pants rarely have pockets and most when they are too shallow use very important for woman have her keys her hand when she goes from building car protect herself from would assilants broadcasting that this someone who definite place safty locked car puting keys and walet looks ugly breaks the lines and makes you rear look wide cows also have the habits that work for any clothing situation the pruse functions mater what you are wearing even nude bikni women suit coat lucky have pockets the outside none the inside have men coats that have much pockets this definitally not fair one that wears both men and women clothes can tell you women clothes have few any funtional pockets when dressed man put wallet inside coat pocket and keys coat outside pocket much more covenent than the pants pockets and looks better having car that unlocks quickly and locks back fast paramout woman safty men don see this problem woman aware this every time she goes out image some red necks yelling you are going fuck you and the out weight you lbs and have inches hight you you want find out why women does something live one celeste
rec.autos	brake rotors cross drilling 
rec.autos	saturn pricing policy article apr brown edu brown edu hok chung tsang writes moreover saturn really does reduce the dealer profit margin then their cars will even better deals say the price saturn was already below market average for the class cars then after they reduce the dealer profit would below market average will attract even more people buy saturns because would save them money force the competitors lower their prices survive but what saturn motivation here they already selling every car they make with multiple shifts the plant given this what possible motivation could they have lower prices cheers richard richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation race car about either its pitch roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	new saturn argument article noose ecn purdue edu rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes how about this argue about why does the have much lower base price than the over cheaper forget the exact amount doesn cost more have the extra doors windows locks motors etc that are the door perhaps just marketing deal people want the door they will pay the extra here what understand the was meant compete with the following cars honda civic toyota tercel toyota corolla nissan sentra mazda protoge subaru loyale impreza isuzu stylus geo prizm ford escort mercury tracer mistubishi mirage plymouth dodge colt their core competition the civic corolla and sentra most the other models are the same class but aren the first cars you would think threw the escort tracer because has good amount japanese technology and has similar reliability stats didn include domestic small cars such the cavalier sunbird shadow sundance tempo and topaz since think saturn going after cars that have least some degree japanese roots the was meant compete against the following cars toyota paseo honda civic civic coupes del sol nissan mazda isuzu impulse geo storm ford escort you look the prices these cars they more expensive than they door counterparts the good reason for this more upscale and trend driven market even though many these models are based sedan platforms their interior etc good enough warrant slightly higher prices here are some the platform derivations can think tercel paseo sentra civic del sol not sure this one stylus impulse storm illustrate tercel starts around while the paseo starts around even door tercel will cost less than door paseo now you might saying that the tercel doesn offer the power that some doors offer what mean that there tercel with comparable powerplant its sport coupe derivative let take another example the isuzu stylus and impulse storm gsi both have the same powerplants engine but the smaller coupes are generally more expensive again this because the two door sport coupe market more fashion oriented and trend setting segment people are willing pay more money for this type car short even though the may smaller hence less car market orientation dictates slightly higher price than its mechanically equivalent sedan version hope this clears things bit mihir shah
rec.autos	apology was did drive the left previous article andrew cmu edu daniel holbrook says guessing but believe the twenties probably drove mostly down cattle trails and wagon ruts fairly sure that placement the steering wheel was pretty much arbitrary the company that time the there was very active good roads movement which had its origins actually the during the bicycle craze picked steam the teens witness the linclon highway association and the highway support act real name something different that first pledged federal aid states and counties build decent roads also the experience widespread use trucks for domestic transport during convinced the government that good raods were crucial our national defense anyway the there were plenty good roads least around urban areas and they were rapidly expanding into the countryside this was the era after all the first auto touring fad the motel the auto camp ground etc two good books the subject spring mind warren belasco america the road title may not exact author and another called the devil wagon god country author forget also any john flink john bell rae auto histories sorry have never heard any this guess they don think important enough for classroom and was going what seen pics some movies real nice scource there huh just always recall thinking that good roads asphalt didn come around til the interstate hiway act whatever they called and that wood and cobblestone roads were fairly rare through the depression except overpopulated places like england and cities obviously netwisdom says wrong placement the steering wheel being arbitrary the early teens there were virtually american cars that did not have the wheel the left the early days cars had the wheel the left the right and even the middle well sometimes having tiller instead wheel this was standardized fairly early though don know why knew was almost always done but knew reason that might not done the other way desoto for their car seems like they had some other deviations from the norm too times dan andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history world history strides from catastrophe catastrophe whether can comprehend and prove not oswald spengler thanx for corrrecting and again aplogize for harebraned post drew
rec.autos	most bang for between and jmh hopper virginia edu jeffrey hoffmeister writes article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen amelio writes rjwade rainbow ecn purdue edu robert wade writes there only one car that really fits your needs spelled liter mustang sports car butm mothers was considered sports car still can quite figure that out since when plastic add ons make car sports car jeff talking about insurance agents from bumf illinois farm bloomington what the hell they know about cars both are sports cars chintan amin the university illinois urbana champaign mail llama uiuc edu because was human because had goodness because was moral they called him insane peart cinderella man
rec.autos	yourself front end alignment possible davidd lonestar utsa edu david leon writes article edu selick csa edu steven selick writes got plymouth colt that like front end alignment possible without all the fancy schmancy gadgets the pros have how steve you you are putting the lives others the road consider able risk why you think mechanics are ase certified anyway you put you need those fancy scmancy gadgets awww right you want all the home mechanics lined against wall and shot bull pucky you chicken read the service manual and get your head out the sand certainly there are tools for the job that are cheaper than alignment rack that the job competently albeit not swiftly not more accurate due the natural pride owner mechanic places his work you can acceptable job aligning car using simple tools and some imaginative work that would never have the effect endangering anyones life the worst that happens that your tires wear oddly well you could have the wheels aiming totally pigeon toed and not able steer the car raise your hands those that think their vision poor that they would screw this badly bet you are one those people that feels that honing cylinder wall with sand paper will kill millions people aint magic take the certification course and look the people that have never learned add their whole life that are taking the certification btw disgusted the colt and some the other chrysler offerings because they out alignment you sneaze them chrysler laser similar the daytona reskinned colt needed realignment every months bolt good grade each wheel using carefully welded spacer jig measure toe adjust manufacturer specs camber bit more difficult adjust and measure used micrometer measure the space between the rim and funky bent pipe that could placed upper and lower portions the rim the inside wheel hard explain this same tool could used instead the had made these tools right after the last alignment done professionally had reference that the original poster might not ciao mark
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time seningen maserati ross com mike seningen mph speedos esp the electronic ones the digital dash the cougars with the large analog clock the middle the dash everything was digital except the stinking clock the funny thing about the digital dash bird with the mph speedo limit was that you pressed the button convert kilometers would read all the way kph this point the stock anemic would get short breath this course was equivalent about mph hehe bet really coulda confused this thing toyed with the engine and rolled the stupid thing the digits were limited gotta agree with the analog clock digital dash though girlfriend had turbocoupe with digital clock and analog gauges radio figure usenet constellation ecn uoknor edu usenet administrator love the keyless entry bird great for those times that had stop put air tires could get out and lock the door with the engine running while ran around air the tire also had great feature bird could pull the key out and leave the ignition this scared the hell out the first time happened but kinda grew like musta been bad key copy something mark novakovic there god the sky tonight sign heaven anywhere sight nin jesus loves blow tribute former area supervisor jim bonneau and the infamous bonneau math demoted not departed ministry
rec.autos	trains have radar hhtra usho hou chevron com haddock writes came upon train parked trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes just passed from underneath the trestle radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong could this have been caused the train radio what recently manufactured locomotives have wheel slip detection systems that use frequencies shared with police radar forget which band these will set off your radar detector you get close enough though believe the range pretty short btw railroad police sometimes use radar check for speeding trains just like regular police check for speeding cars although the intent here for safety not revenue collection unlike with cars
rec.autos	braindead drivers who don look ahead article zdem hgo zdem hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes block the would passers not only for own good but theirs well even though they are often too stupid realize rule philosophy don feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed his own stupidity but does worry when some idiot position cash chips too mayo well aren just altruism himself just what the world needs another frustrated self appointed traffic cop well you want stick the nose your car the ass foot semi suppose your neck however not going let you kill the bargain you get frustrated somebody delaying your inevitable death due less that wise driving practices then tough thank god for the fourth july for yearly rids the earth considerable load fools mark twain
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr lmpsbbs comm mot com sheinfel ssd comm mot com aviad sheinfeld writes you think can use electric drill change suitable bit turn out can succeed can tighten not too tight safe without oil leak tighten the bolt the specified torque your service manual that way won leak strip break etc hopefully thank you very much advance winson aviad you can avoid these problems entirely installing oil drain valve place the bolt have one both cars there have been leaks miles combined miles both cars ron deblock rdb homxb att com that number rdb not letter bell labs somerset usa
rec.autos	aftermarket air conditioners article qcaueinnmt axon unc edu andrew brandt writes looked into getting installed honda crx the unit plus shipping installation like hours top that this hunk change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket installation not with honda unit but some third party unit cannot seem find anyone who can put third party unit honda carolina would prefer some place nearby but any references would handy thx andy brandt unc edu sorry can help you with your question but have comment make concerning aftermarket units have frost king frost temp forget which aftermarket unit cavalier and quite unhappy with the fan noisy and doesn put out much air will never have aftermarket installed any vehicles again just can trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel going live forever intergraph corporation die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com ljbartel naomi ingr com
rec.autos	braindead drivers who don look ahead agree that traffic all blocked and you want pass you might not feel like moving over for someone behind you because you don want give them that one car length when they should just wait like you are but you one those people that just sit behind the person and doesn flash them with the high beams pull left and flash them ride their bumper otherwise tell them that you fact want and you not just drafting them then get the hell out the way someone who will especially hate when you flash someone the back line and they don pass and there also the issue some cars being more intimidating get people out the way than others for instance gts look pretty mean rearview mirror night with the foglights there have been plenty times when broken pack that second line hyundai has been behind for miles you just need know how get their attention like see you use this method couple semi drivers they see you they usually acknowledge sticking their hand out the window with their middle finger extended because also obvious them that there clear lane ahead
rec.autos	day court results while back asked for help defending traffic ticket received short the ticket was for not stopping stop sign given the conditions could not stop time and decided instead sliding right through the intersection would complete right turn and avoid possible accident police cruiser happened approaching the intersection from left and gave the ticket the officer said the only reason that you even slowed down the first place was that you saw approaching otherwise you would have bombed right through would like thank all those who responded favorably request for help all those who told bite the bullet and pay the fine phghghghgh the judge sided with and decided that this case not stopping was the safest thing and found not guilty the officer statement and account the conditions the time very slippery backed newpaper weather conditions were the factors what made the judge decide his verdict moral you have never been court before and you think you have case for very interesting process and there for your benefit exercise your rights trev name trevor paquette landmark ita fahrvergnuegen email tpaquette ita lgc com calgary alberta canada visitor from cyberspace renegade virtual reality include disclaimer
rec.autos	saturn manual transmission problem had exactly the same problem with horizon third gear would just disengage engine would rev kind disconcerting sold that car quite few years back but the memory that tranny sticks with also had clutch chatter first that the dealer could not fix the lemon law had been place then that car would have been covered have had several jap cars since then figuring the horizon was contribution the american auto companies and have never seen any bad behavior with the exception toyota tercel with bit clutch chatter that they did fix the first try anyway from that day forward have sworn that would never purchase another american car with standard american manufacturers don have clue how manufacture five speed transmissions and have been doing the automatics much longer and many more cars however hate automatics still buying jap cars not sure this any help but other cars this too cheers larry larry rogers larry rogers com big brother larry boris webo com watching data general the opinions contained herein are own and not reflect the opinions data general anyone else but they should sometimes are the windshield sometimes are the bug dire straits
rec.autos	regal fiberglass parts have regal and interested buying fiberglass hood trunk and bumpers for does anybody know company who makes fiberglass parts for regals thanks advance mike
rec.autos	trains have radar article fvt dixie com jgd dixie com john armond writes hhtra usho hou chevron com haddock writes while taking extended easter vacation was going north somewhere between centerville and dallas and came upon train parked trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared movement within the cab and out curiosity slowed get better look just passed from underneath the trestle radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong thought had been nailed good but police materialized some but not all locomotives have doppler speedometers the radar head mounted looking down the ground minimize intereference sent and received but looking tangentally wheel these are low power units and typically won trigger radar detectors unless unusual situation such yours arises john john armond oqc interested high performance mobility performance engineering magazine interested high tech and computers marietta send snail mail address jgd dixie com perform dixie com for free sample mag need usenet public access atlanta write for info dixie com this makes sense radar pointed down because almost every train pass head that triggers radar detector does more just after have passed the front the engine get little the reflections approaching and the instant get the side the first engine the detector receives fairly strong signal for short time happens with just about every train see
rec.autos	electronic odometers was used bmw question consulted with someone working electronic odometer the design was use microprocessor based system write somewhat ofuscated pattern into eeprom the idea was make the circuit difficult program arbitrary values into the eeprom the secondary purpose acutally the primary purpose from the standpoint practicality was distributed the writes avoid exceeing the maximum number writes fof the eeprom being used the microprocessor also ignored pulses coming from the hall effect rate any higher than mph make spoofing the reading bench pulsing least somewhat undesirable this was for automobile that was not expected ever exceed mph operation the case course might not the same for your the ecm modules some cars indeed store info about conditions under which cars have been operated since steering angle and velocity data etc available would not difficult collect all sorts interesting demographic information about the drivers use the car not aware any manufacturer currently trying enforce warranty restrictions based reading out use data from the ecm while could potential invasion your privacy for manufacturers have access data about your driving style could also provide valuable information from actual field use conditions help engineer more appropriate cars personally wouldn mind the dealer collecting driving demographics long done anonymous fashion bill mayhew neoucom computer services department rootstown usa phone wtm uhura neoucom edu wed
rec.autos	open letter nissan previous article smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris says here even better suggestion why don you guys ahead and buy the rest fuji heavy industries subaru and put either line into the legacy wagon buy the legacy minute had nissan engine instead the horizontal that they seem sentimentally attached what you find wrong with the flat the subaru the flat for that matter dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	after market cruise controls specific questions howdy little new this newsgroup but would like tap some the knowledge and expertise available here the subject after market cruise controls the background recently broke ankle road bicycling accident places five screws yuk two weeks will returning texas home from school byu provo utah you can imagine trying drive nearly miles with broken right ankle isn just the epitome good time car does not have cruise control would have all the pedalling with messed ankle question what the general opinion after market cruise control units realize that cheap cruise control from say pep boys isn going good factory professionally installed unit there such thing and uderstand that probably can expect much the way accuracy looks and that sort thing but anything gotta better than trying drive with hosed ankle have jeep cherokee speed standard engine with kettering ignition know distributor cap rotor that set not electronic maybe you could guessed being but just trying give information completly can found unit for bucks seems use the vehicles vacuum system instead electric servor motor this good bad did buy this which vacuum hose should tap has two speed sensors one magnetic and one that gets signal from the negative side the distributor kinda like tach pick understand can use either one which best the manual says read the store today that the magnetic axle set more accurate but harder install there really big difference has sensor for the brake pedal just like other ccs but does not have sensor for the clutch pedal wasn paying real close attention might push the clutch while the cruise trying get the speed which would wind the engine kinda high until got wits about and turned the thing off pretty coordinated this doesn bother were for girlfriends car then would bother but with the installation also calls for attachment steady brake signal and switched brake signal think can get switched brake signal from the correct side the brake light blade fuse right but not sure where get the steady brake signal for that matter what exactly any ideas what the manufaturer wants and where get think can figure the other things out like how hook the negative side tach type sensing gizmo and the cabin control unit and the ground and all that miscellaneous business but need little help with worth the money and safety risk any for such device there any particularly good after market are professionally installed ccs signifacantly better and worth the cabbage the unit saw sorry manufacturer model number just that pep boy and its sufficient for simple needs how get the thing installed properly specifically the questions above father and built veep volkswagen powered jeep when was high school consider myself fairly good with tools electronics and cars the installation doesn scare just want certain that get the thing installed correctly cherokee just wee bit more complicated than veep appreciate your time reading post and would appreciate any expertise opinion anybody has the subject you would like share some your wisdom please email don get over this group very often but check mail all the time again thanks for any help anyone may have mike wieda mikew canc byu edu
rec.autos	did drive the left rob reilly whips and their tempers initially all cars were built with the driver controls the right because that the way people drove buggies the this just not many the earliest cars had their steering controls the center the vehicle and there discernible pattern left right hand steering controls until few years into the century when america least left hand wheels became the pattern the mule team horses imagine explanation however seems have some merit dan andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university applied history this coffee plunges into the stomach the mind aroused and ideas pour forth like the battalions the grand army the field battle memories charge full gallop the light cavalry comparisons deploys itself magnificently the artillery logic hurry with their train ammunition flashes wit pop like sharp shooters honore balzac cups day
rec.autos	license plates nissan previous article edf marshall wvnet edu says interested getting the list for license plate numbers anyone has listing appreciate getting copy thanks you must incredibly bored have you considered reading the phone book dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	isuzu amigo opinions sought previous article sdexter shl com scott dexter says like the amigo would like some feedback any and all feedback appreciated yet another jeep wannabe designed for yuppies who will never take off road but want look outdoorsey dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	license plates previous article edf marshall wvnet edu says interested getting the list for license plate numbers anyone has listing appreciate getting copy thanks you must incredibly bored have you considered reading the phone book dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	truck tailgates mileage article mar lehigh edu lehigh edu jun writes article mar nosc mil koziarz halibut nosc mil walter koziarz writes article hpscit com chrisw hpscit com chris wiles ites consumers report did study think and found that most trucks got worse mileage with the tailgate off the tailgates the newer trucks actually help sure they and replacing the front bumper and grille with closet door helps mileage and cooling actually said that then they have bigger fools working for them than the fools that believe their drivel but who argue this just someone that been pickup driver for years that all forget the net just take off the tailgate hiway trips since the nets aren designed nor capable restraining load the bed anyway around town the tailgate will have negligable effect mileage anyway walt they may help improve mileage some cases believe with the tailgate the flow structure behind the cab may differ and the vortex drag may reduced during high speed driving how about those toneau covers been thinking building one from chipboard for roadtrips any comment how they affect mileage highway travel charles within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	chevy sprint have chevy sprint with and doors odometer turned and the sensor light started blinking went the dealer and said was maintenance light saying need change the oxygen sensor said changed every but since bought the car when had don know the same thing happened and quoted for the part and install the part cost outside but the mechanic went could not fix saying the sensor placed too deep the engine parts suggested wait till malfunctions before anything anyone out there owns chevy sprint want know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing without the dealer help also what are the results the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would greatly apprecisted thanks nagesh
rec.autos	old corvettes low insurance article apr lehigh edu swr lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes article csux news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei writes after too many years school finally graduating and getting real job course trying make plans how spend all this extra money right now have accord good car but not real sporty was thinking selling about two years and dropping around sports car some kind after thinking about may have better idea keep the accord until drops and buy the car always wanted corvette stingray reasoning that accord corvette less than what would spend anyway basically thinking late early for around question what are good years consider for reliability looks horsepower that order believe not horsepower not main concern want fast get motorcycle and what are good prices also what would insurance look like male single might wait until get the car lower insurance would the fact that mainly drive the other car lower there some type classic car rarely driven insurance class for driving under miles per year dad has vette and its what you say classic insurance basically what that means that has restricted amount driving time which basically means cant used every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage addition restricted mileage many classic insurance carriers also require that the vehicle garaged when not use ericy eric youngblood bell northern research richardson texas peon email privs
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr cbnewsj att com rdb cbnewsj att com ronald deblock writes you can avoid these problems entirely installing oil drain valve place the bolt have one both cars there have been leaks miles combined miles both cars yes but then someone would have problem draining your oil parking lot all they have reach underneath turn valve and forget the trip home but there less likelyhood they have wrench with them personally recommend installing special locking drain plug keep vandals away steve
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak tulin writes just started reading this thread today forgive has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault putting the horn the left hand turn signal stalk was button the end where the washer button would the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel what well before start calling the engineering folks france bunch braindeads for this mercury capri had this lovely feature this was not the earlier german variant but the newer one that was identical the mustang current fame can tell you how many times this feature pissed off come think brothers zepher had this well robert dilmore dilmore cray com going back earlier thread imagine having turn left shift gears flash stray driver the intersection with your left hand high beam the headlight stalk and after the driver wouldn move having honk the horn the left hand stalk gives the heebie jeebies barak
rec.autos	trains busses have radar article fqfy fpq usenet ucs indiana edu mliggett silver ucs indiana edu matthew liggett writes apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com haddock writes while taking extended easter vacation was going north somewhere between centerville and dallas and came upon train parked trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared movement within the cab and out curiosity slowed get better look just passed from underneath the trestle radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong thought had been nailed good but police materialized could this have been caused the train radio what don know about trains but saw sign the back greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may set off doesn explain why but does set off radar detector from the net desk rick colombo dcd dsg fermi nat acc lab fermilab box feynman computer center batavia ill usa colombo fnal fnal gov course speak for fermilab congress and the president not
rec.autos	sprayed bedliner info wanted rec autos dennis hpcvra com dennis schloeman writes xsorry repost this again soon but xthe information from earlier post was xdeleted from our system looking for information concerning sprayed bedliners for pickup trucks company here does using polyurethene xbut they only been around for months xso there not much track record here xis the sprayed bedliner any good how xwell they hold over the years any xinfo would appreciated xthanks xdennis you have ziebart dealer your area they offered spray bed liners around here for several years you see what kind warranty they have unfortunately don know anyone who has gotten one can help you there also ask they can give you list references mack costello mcostell oasys navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division nswc bethesda phone
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam article qhs dinnj col col com tvervaek col com tom vervaeke writes experience with jeep service dept while not exactly service incident had similar experience recently when bought new truck had picked out the vehicle wanted and after little haggling agreed price wrote them check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them back that evening pick the truck when returned had wait about hour before the finance guy could get when finally got there everything went smoothly until started adding the numbers then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license about then said needed another from said had already agreed price and was their problem wasn giving them any more money the finance guy then brought the manager duty who proceeded give hard time reminded him that was the customer and didn think should treated like that and that didn back off could forget the whole deal made some smart remark told him where could stick snatched back check and left needless say they were not pleased the turn events early the next morning got call from the general sales manager wanting know what happened related the story and apologised profusely and asked there was anything they could change mind told him that they gave the truck for free probably still wouldn take that there were other dealers town was repeat customer theirs and that they should learn how treat customers etc etc was still pretty steamed about the whole affair gave the line about hating lose customer and they would try find solution etc etc told him not bother thanks somewhere else couple hours later the owner the dealership called all apologetic etc etc etc and said that they would cover the plus knock another off the price the truck told him think about and gave his private direct phone number his secretary name and assured that they valued customer etc etc etc thought about for few hours and discussed with wife and decided what the hell that was pretty decent deal called him back and accepted his offer when went back the next day pick the truck received the royal treatment everyone seemed know about the incident even the lot boy everything went smoothly and was out there new truck about mins guess reasonably satisfied customer however should not have happened the first place was bit shocked have sales person talk like that don expect them bow and grovel but sure don expect given hard time either esp when their mistake anyway happy with the truck and turned out couple hundred dollars under invoice and they paid most the first year license fee not sure whether back that dealer tho mark
rec.autos	changing oil self rec autos boyle cactus org craig boyle writes xin article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc yiklam unixg ubc yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how take out the bolt under the engine compartment should turn clockwise counter tried any kind lubricants etc but still failed you think can use electric drill change suitable bit turn out can succeed can tighten not too tight safe without oil leak xassuming you don have russian car with opposite threads then xyou turn counterclockwise would get some professional xhelp here you may not have located the draing plug and xactually trying loosen something else xcraig thank you very much advance winson this reminds the first time cousin did oil change his car crawled under removed bolt drained the fluid replaced the bolt then carefully poured quarts oil didn bother check the dip stick just drove off didn get too far till found out that drained the speed trans and dumped extra quarts into the engine moral craig said don ashamed get some person help the first time mack costello mcostell oasys navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division nswc bethesda phone
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes article apr cbnewsj att com rdb cbnewsj att com ronald deblock writes you can avoid these problems entirely installing oil drain valve place the bolt have one both cars there have been leaks miles combined miles both cars yes but then someone would have problem draining your oil parking lot all they have reach underneath turn valve and forget the trip home but there less likelyhood they have wrench with them personally recommend installing special locking drain plug keep vandals away steve was worried about someone stealing oil once also finally decided just have drain plug welded shut works great figure that when add three four quarts when the oil light comes every month that just good better than the old wives tale changing the oil and filter every miles works for must say
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes article apr cbnewsj att com rdb cbnewsj att com ronald deblock writes you can avoid these problems entirely installing oil drain valve place the bolt have one both cars there have been leaks miles combined miles both cars yes but then someone would have problem draining your oil parking lot all they have reach underneath turn valve and forget the trip home most cars have drain petcocks the radiators and never seen nor heard vandal opening one imagine that there would even lower risk with oil plug because you have crawl furthur under the car open car vandals are usually real traditional their methods and things that don get them dirty like keying your car dumping sand sugar mothballs the gas tank tping etc boycott usl novell for their absurd anti bsdi lawsuit drew eckhardt condemn colorado for amendment two drew colorado edu use linux the fast flexible and free unix
rec.autos	mazda forsale for sale mazda mazda white exterior grey interior miles interior very good condition exterior good condition pioneer car stereo player presets removable faceplate seperate component speakers professionally mounted the doors the car has been well maintained wax often and keep the interior clean its good running car with solid body rust thru tiny spots surface rust when see spot touch the stereo makes the car have had mechanical problems with looking for firm the car has average wholesale value about without the stereo the stereo cost last july you are interested call email carl mercer cci com evening
rec.autos	license plates article apr marshall wvnet edu edf marshall wvnet edu writes interested getting the list for license plate numbers anyone has listing appreciate getting copy thanks you can the dmv and ask for their listing although don know where you may actually buy copy you can use theirs for your perusal california the listing personalized license plates run volumes each about thick hope this what you asking for ken kenneth lui klui corp com hanover street corporate administrative information systems palo alto usa core application technologies fax
rec.autos	changing oil self rist another dealer service scam previous article bmoss grinch sim com brent woody moss says was worried about someone stealing oil once also finally decided just have drain plug welded shut works great figure that when add three four quarts when the oil light comes every month that just good better than the old wives tale changing the oil and filter every miles works for must say did the same thing drain plug for the same reasons was wondering how you filled your crankcase though welded hood shut also out fear that somebody might steal air filter dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	rec autos welcome the new reader archive name rec autos part most recent changes march addition alt autos karting rpw welcome rec autos this article sent out automatically each month and contains general description the purpose each the automotive newsgroups and some suggested guidelines for discussions the keywords monthly posting will always appear make killing this article easy for users newsreaders with kill facilities this article posted all autos groups but followups are directed only rec autos you don understand what this means ask your system administrator for help least for copies the newuser documentation failing that please subscribe the newsgroup news announce newusers and read the documentation provided there introduction the rec autos newsgroup hierarchy rec autos tech intended for technical discussions automobiles their design construction diagnosis and service other discussions are largely inappropriate especially for sale ads rec autos sport intended for 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rec.autos	rec autos frequently asked consumer automotive questions archive name rec autos part this article one pair articles containing commonly asked automotive questions the other article contains questions more geared the automotive enthusiast and not crossposted misc consumers rpw changes april revised brake fluid section non silicone dot fluids are now apparently available rpw commonly asked automotive questions tire questions what the funny numbers the sides tires mean typically you will see something like the the overall width the tire millimeters the tread usually narrower the the aspect ratio indicates the height the sidewall the tire relative the overall width our example tire has sidewall height the the wheel diameter inches there are also some special tires called trx tires which have three digit metric wheel diameter designations like which millimeters the means radial and the speed rating indicating the highest speed which the tire when properly inflated and carrying appropriate load may safely operate common speed ratings are mph mph mph and mph recent changes the method for specifying tire sizes move the speed rating different part the designation you may therefore find designations like the indicates the per tire load associated with the speed rating exceeding this load continuous operation the rated speed dangerous practice what follows table showing number load indices and corresponding maximum per tire loads load index max load note that the usual mass weight confusion occurs this table some cases the letters may found front tire size the designation indicates light truck and the designation indicates passenger car letter given then the application the tire passenger car usage far know these letters only appear the market the designation prinicipally interest owners light trucks and other utility vehicles for the owner passenger vehicle there meaningful difference between tire with designation and one with designation all the aspect ratio omitted probably but may tires with mud snow designation may have their speed rating reduced about mph there additional set ratings tires for temperature traction and treadwear temperature and traction are graded and with the best and the worst treadwear numeric rating these values are limited value they are assigned somewhat arbitrarily tire manufacturers and are thus not useful comparing different brands tires car has tires with funny size designation can put normal tires the car your tires are called trx tires they were devised michelin because somewhat different bead design they are incompatible with normal tires michelin used different diameter wheel for them that they could not mounted the wrong type wheel and that more conventional tires could not mounted trx type wheels you will need aquire different wheels put normal tire your car barely possible fit normal tires trx wheels and horribly dangerous the tires may simply peel off the rims corner possibly blow out high speed trx type tires are becoming hard find addition michelin avon makes suitable tires goodyear has apparently discontinued their line trx tires can rotate radials from side side rotate them only one side car car and tire manufacturers have differing views this subject many say that swapping radials between the left and right hand sides car now this group includes michelin and goodyear others for example pirelli and nokia will void warranties such swapping done the best advice read your tire manual carefully before rotating your tires and stick the manufacturer recommendations how many snow tires should buy and buy which end the car should put them short and both ends explain many drivers areas that don get excessive snow who don drive agressively all snow conditions get away with only two snows the drive wheels but there are circumstances where this can dangerous practice with rear wheel drive car you can choose between being able start the car going function the rear axle stopping and turning the car function the front axle front wheel drive car you start stop and turn with the front end the primary risk putting the snow tires the front only that you have put the brakes while going downhill you run serious risk going downhill backwards radar detectors and speed limits why aren there any comments radar detectors and speed limits this posting because questions about detectors and speed limits crossposted between misc consumers and rec autos always start long tedious and pointless flame wars you want talk about either these topics please subscribe rec autos alt flame and keep there safety equipment airbags really work preliminary statistics suggest the following airbags work much better than belts good point belts alone work much better than airbags alone and airbags point belts work slightly better than point belts alone the con airbags that some designs tend burn the driver hands when venting the byproducts the explosion that occurs inside the bag and that some designs but not all may knock the driver hands from the wheel making retention control the vehicle after the bag deflates more difficult brake questions always need get the rotors disk brakes turned midas always wants this there are specific conditions that mandate turning replacing rotors some shops try and make little extra money replacing rotors more often than strictly necessary the rotors are not warped warped and only lightly grooved then there need replace turn them note also that some rotors the rotors many hondas are good example are narrow begin with that not practical turn them they must replaced when they become too thin warped badly grooved they tell should downshift when braking slow car down this really good idea used very good idea back the days mediocre fade prone drum brakes modern disc brake equipped cars use downshifting slow the car not really necessary except cases long steep downhill runs otherwise modern disc brakes are more than adequate stop passenger car all circumstances and they are much cheaper repair than clutch linings the other hand many standard driver license tests the usa still specify that the driver being tested downshift under braking suggest that before taking driver test you either learn this smoothly which takes some time and practice borrow car with automatic take the test how often should replace brake fluid probably more often than you traditional brake fluids tend absorb water this water can corrode internal parts the brake system and also lower the boiling point the fluid dot type are older fluids dot and dot are newer specifications the principal differences are wet and dry boiling points the dry boiling point important fresh brake fluid but the wet boiling point important older brake fluid dot fluids have the lowest wet and dry boiling point requirements dot fluids have better boiling point requirements and dot fluids have the best boiling point requirements but dot fluids are not clearly superior see the next for more details while the requirements imply that dot fluids are better than dot fluids there may specific cases where dot fluid preferable but these are mostly competition applications otherwise dot type fluids offer much improved brake pedal feel replacement once year recommended for dot fluids although agressive drivers may profit changing out fluid more frequently least bleeding modest amount fluid out the brake calipers fairly regularly what about dot brake fluids this breaks down two parts the dot specification looks excellent for performance but the first dot fluids were silicone based silicone fluids are tricky proposition unlike dot and dot fluids they not absorb water all while this may sound like feature the problem that any water present pools such systems interfering with braking performance and corroding any metals the spot where the pooling occuring the water will tend migrate downwards the braking system the brake calipers where most the corrosion occurs because this phenomenon essential when converting silicone empty the entire brake system and flush throughly beforehand some even recommend replacing all rubber parts the brake system when converting silicone fluids two other issues that come with silicone fluids they are difficult pour cleanly that without air bubbles which interferes with getting good brake pedal feel and while they generally have much higher boiling points than dot fluids they have high temperature failure modes which are indistinguishable effect from boiling dot fluids silicone fluids may make sense some street car applications but they are certainly not recommended for high performance driving applications and the economics are questionable for street use have recently become aware new fluids that meet the dot standard that not contain silicones these fluids appear reasonably compatible with the older dot and dot fluids but have little information this time abs available some the cars looking but costs more worth this does not have cut and dried answer therefore this answer will quite long order cover the pros and cons the short answer that abs costs more both initially and maintain will generally work better for the average driver that say driver who does not have extensive experience high performance driving techniques and may require the unlearning some obsolete braking techniques like pump braking which should unlearned any case now for the long answer abs works monitering the wheels the car looking for signs locked brakes may may not able able distinguish between the different wheels there are several systems the market cannot detect impending lockup which what you would really want ideal world but only the existence lockup the sensors used vary some the less well designed sensors are sensitive tire size and brake pad material and may cease function properly the owner deviates from original equipment equivalent components when the sensors detect lockup the abs system responds unlocking the brakes either individually all once depending the system the driver keeps their foot firmly planted the abs will end cycling between the locked and unlocked states sensor existed that could detect impending lockup then could sit right that point which where maximum braking effect achieved this pulsing can often felt the brake pedal the system cycles the percentage the time that the brakes are truly engaged called the duty cycle typically abs system this about dry pavement trained driver can beat this duty cycle quite reliably using technique called threshold braking wet pavement braking chancy that abs will outperform threshold braking nearly every time unfortunately mud and snow often maximum braking effect can acheived with the brakes locked only audi the manufacturers producing abs equipped cars has seen fit provide disable switch for the abs system for this eventuality particularly important feature abs that preserves steering control this the case simply because you are braking near the limit and turn the wheel the abs will release the brakes sees steering triggered lockup and back off the percentage the time that the brakes are applied braking distances will lengthen accordingly important caution abs cannot exceed the maximum theoretical braking force any given situation you start sliding glare ice don expect abs system help you out very much the coefficient friction not changed the presence abs system your car far maintenence goes addition the potential restrictions listed above you have worry about the following parts costs are much higher the master cylinder for obscure european sedan lists for but the master cylinder for the abs equipped version the same car lists for over most manufacturers explicitly forbid use dot silicone brake fluids abs equipped vehicles because the potential cost replacement corroded brake system components regular suggest annual replacement brake fluid becomes very important what about this threshold braking business normally not put this the consumers but recent publicity about number accidents involving police drivers abs equipped chevy caprices suggests that this section needed here rpw threshold braking technique practiced all serious high performance drivers made habit replaces the stab the pedal and lock panic habit entirely and much prefered basically the premise that tires generate maximum braking force when they have just started slide but just before the wheels lock entirely drivers who threshold brake learn feel what this threshold feels like and learn search for and hit the application the brake pedal many cars you can feel that you are near the threshold when the pedal starts firm you depress any case you can hear the tires whine just bit you not very near the threshold car with abs often there twinge the pedal just before the system starts cycling the driver backs off the pedal just tad when the twinge felt then they are very close the threshold and they probably achieve better stopping distances than they just punched and let the abs take over recently there has been rash publicity over number accidents and one death involving police cars equipped with abs systems the police departments question quickly blamed the new abs systems but according autoweek magazine now seems clear that the problem was lack training none the involved officers had any recent performance driving training there reason believe that the drivers reacted the pulsing brake pedal pump braking old and discredited technique stabbing and releasing the brake pedal the goal being try and get brakes back with failing hydraulic system you think about for minute you realize that pump braking must cut the effective operation working brake system least you cut the duty cycle abs system that much you are giving most your brakes for the wrong reason threshold braking has the advantage that effective and useful technique regardless whether your car has abs you fear failed hydraulic system then one two stabs the pedal will sufficient gas questions does high octane gasoline help maybe maybe not some cars have knock sensors and can adjust the engine timing turbocharger boost suit the gasoline being used most cars however you should use the cheapest gas that makes your car run well check your owner manual for details what your car needs car was made for leaded gasoline will unleaded gas hurt possible that unleaded gas may slightly increase valve wear although the amoco oil company argues otherwise the actual increase valve wear will almost unnoticeable however modern leaded gasolines actually contain very little lead you should however check your owner manual many cars from the early not actually require leaded gasoline fuel treatments help what kind should use some and some don during the winter good idea use dry gas however some may harmful fuel injection systems never use additive containing methanol sometimes called methyl alcohol such additives may damage fuel systems cars with carbs and almost certainly will damage cars with fuel injection manufacturer opinions vary additives containing ethanol sometimes called ethyl alcohol your car has fuel injection check the owner manual your car before using these most manufacturers consider ethanol acceptable gasoline additives with isopropyl alcohol isopropanol and petroleum distillates are fine fuel injected cars occasional bottle fuel injector cleaner helpful cars with fuel injectors although many premium gasolines contain detergents that the same job some off brands fuel injector cleaners contain ethanol methanol always check the ingredients before putting anything your gas tank there are small number particularly good additives these are noticeably more expensive that the run the mill ones but work much much better among these are chevron techron redline wurth lubrimoly ventil sauber and bottle one these once every six months highly recommended what about detergent gasolines the quality detergent packages gasolines varies somewhat bmw has instituted testing program and gasoline brands which pass this test may advertise that fact stickers indicating passage the test are now beginning appear fuel pumps gas stations such gasolines are used then fuel injector cleaners are probably optional beforewarned that while use bmw approved gasolines will keep clean engine clean they may not clean motor with bad valve deposits lubrication questions what the numbers and letters motor oil designation mean there are several different items encoded there two letter code indicating the type detergent package that the manufacturer uses the oil this looks like such the codes are for gasoline engine applications the codes are for diesel engine applications the second letter assigned sequence new levels protection are developed thus considered better than considered better than and forth the more noticeable designation the oil weight this either single number weight pair numbers separated the letter the latter type much more commonly used these days and are the only type that most automobile manufacturers specify operators manuals the first number the designation the apparent viscosity the oil when cold the stands for winter the second number the viscosity the oil when hot there trick here the oil doesn actually get thicker turn from weight weight gets hotter what actually happening that when the oil cold has the viscosity cold weight oil gets hotter doesn get thin fast oil would the time temperature has the viscosity hot weight oil note that these numbers actually specify ranges viscosities not all oils have exactly the same viscosity when cold and not all weight oils have the same viscosity when hot note also that the novel behaviour multi grade oils caused additives and has been reported that with the sole exception castrol gtx oils not retain their multi grade characteristics well over time and oils work very well though are quick lube places any good some adequate work but there are quite few incompetent ones out there let the buyer beware watch them while they work make sure that they don overtorque the oil drain plug and keep your hand your wallet all times are oil additives like slick tufoil any good slick and tufoil are ptfe based additives many these have come onto the market recently they are different from the moly based additives that have been around since the early ptfe the chemical name for teflon trademark owned dupont general auto manufacturers not recommend use these products most usenet responses questions these additives are favorable slight increase mpg after application smoother revving but long term results whether ptfe additives are effective after miles are debatable some manufacturers such saab claim that either the product the engine flush that preceeds application causes deterioration the oil seals and eventual leakage some bmw owners have reported death valve seals shortly after the addition slick their cars this writer has been cautioned slick dealer that slick should not used japanese motors may clog the oil return passages the engine otherwise there are known reports damage caused ptfe additives the other hand there are satified slick customers the world synthetic oils really work yes but more specifically most auto manufactuers accept synthetics but disagree with the extremely long oil change intervals claimed oil manufacturers auto manufacturers recommend that you continue change oil the intervals recommended the owners manual for your car even you decide try the longer intervals least change the oil filter regular intervals synthetics get just dirty conventional oils synthetic gear lubricants for manual transmissions are another matter entirely amsoil redline and agip are very highly regarded and very effective mobil synthetic gear lube gets mixed reviews however manufacturers are specifying longer and longer oil change intervals how often should change oil depends how you drive your car always nearly always gets warmed and you don drive very hard and keep the revs down the manufacturer recommendation probably fine however you drive hard drive high revs alternatively you only drive and from the supermarket that doesn get temperature then you may wish change oil much more often perhaps mile intervals given that most manufacturers are now specifying mile intervals you don drive your car much all say miles year then you probably want change oil every six months anyway you are storing car during the winter then change oil before storing and change oil when you bring out storage misc questions car has timing belt hear that bad things happen when they break what the story depends the internal design the motor early ford escorts for example will suffer severe valve damage the belt breaks but the newer cars will just require tow and installation new belt some honda motors will not damaged but others will replacement interval specified for your car then change the belt least every miles some cars may require more frequent replacement ask your dealer independent mechanic also ask there are any related repairs that should take place the same time for example the same ford escorts that suffer valve damage also have timing belt driven water pump which has been known seize destroying the timing belt and which then causes major valve damage side effect replacing the timing belt while ignoring the water pump can costly mistake why would anyone stupid enough design motor that self destructs when the timing belt breaks for performance reasons compromising piston design that the valves and pistons will not collide requires that the compression ratio the engine reduced significantly this why you are more likely avoid valve damage economy cars than performance oriented vehicles what causes unintended acceleration the final report the national highway transportation and safety administration concluded that unintended acceleration could not caused any mechanical failure the vehicle question and the same time consistent with the physical evidence the nhtsa report goes conclude that pedal misapplication the vehicle operator probably the cause richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation race car about either its pitch roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	warning please read unfortunately got another story add this girlfriend and were driving through west and got pelted rock just were pulling away from stoplight the scary thing was that the rock was heavy enough put decent sized dent the door riviera which pretty much solid detriot iron couple inches higher and would have gone through the window chris chris barrus chrisb lynx uci edu kallista aol com buick riviera boattail peace through superior automotive power sacred cows make the best hamburger abbie hoffman
rec.autos	militech saw interesting product auto show and would like hear your comments militech yet another oil additive but the demonstration this product really impressive didn cheat the setup the demo fairly simple cone shaped rotor half submerged small oil sink filled with motor oil the rotor powered electronic motor metal pad pressed against the rotor using the torque wrench until the rotor stopped friction the torque that needed stop rotor read from the torque wrench before militech was added the rotor was stopped with about torque you pick the brand oil difference once militech was added the oil the rotor could not stopped even with torque here the good part even after the salesman emptied the oil sink you still could not stopped the rotor with the thin film remained they say you need only add per quart oil every miles bottle still have doubts this product really great why was little known the salesman said widely used military didn believe the demo was impressive that bought bottle against common sense has anyone heard actually used this product real you are going the auto show please visit this stand the second floor see can find out the demo hoax not jason chen
rec.autos	ford sho engine parts will not work internal engine components the sho engine this good thing too about miles cam sensor went south different ford dealers tried different fixes none which worked finally took down the street the local mechanic this guy reads the code off the engine computer says bad cam sensor and fixes hour friend mine had some sensors damaged flood waters ford denys any sensors are registering bad and his father did the short circut via paper clip method not sure the exact technique and read the codes off the service engine light flashes generated from this came with the damaged sensors went back ford and told them what was wrong they fixed the car after that what bunch bozos the cutting edge bbs cutting hou pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb
rec.autos	rec autos automotive mailing lists archive name rec autos part automotive mailing lists electronic mail that last updated new lotus exotic cars list subscription info added portland motorsports list corvair list triumph list rpw there are number electronic mailing lists the network devoted various special automotive topics the best knowledge all the lists appearing here have open membership policies policy not list closed mailing lists here most mailing lists provide separate addresses for administrative queries and for general mail where separate administrative addresses exist have listed those below the general addresses are not appropriate for inquirys and requests audi send requests quattro request aries east sun com autocross solo send requests autox request hoosier utah edu bmw send requests bmw request balltown cma com both regular and digest forms available british cars send requests british cars request hoosier utah edu buick grand national regal gnx send requests gnttype request srvsn monsanto com camaro firebird body send requests body request boogie ebay sun com corvair send requests bryan pegasus mitre org corvettes there are two lists the first more competition oriented list and the second more general nature told competition send requests vettes request cimage com general send requests vettes request compaq com datsun fairlady roadsters send requests datsun roadsters request hoosier utah edu dodge stealth mitsubishi send requests stealth req jim uucp wupost wustl edu eclipse talon laser send requests diginst talon request radius com electric vehicles send requests info request ymir claremont edu exotic cars send requests exotic cars request sol asl hitachi com fabrication race cars send requests racefab request pms pms ford com international harvester discussion scouts pickups etc send requests ihc request balltown cma com italian cars send requests italian cars request balltown cma com both regular and digest forms available hondas listserv brownvm brown edu use standard listserv subscription procedure the mail message body listserv should sub honda your real name with subject line the header hot rods send requests hotrod request dixie com land rovers send requests land rover owner request stratus com lotus send requests lotus cars request netcom com mazdas send requests mazda list request uky edu miata listserv jhunix hcf jhu edu use standard listserv subscription procedure the mail message body listserv should sub miata your real name with subject line the header merkurs send requests merkur request pcad uucp mopar mostly high performance chrysler dodge plymouth products send requests mopar casbah acns nwu edu send requests interest request validgh com mustangs there are two lists the first for mustangs through the second for mustangs from nobody cares about the mustang don ask classic send requests classic mustangs request hpfctjc com modern send requests mustangs request cup com offroad send requests offroad request gtri gatech edu porsches send requests porschephiles request tta com portland oregon motorsports activities send requests pdxracer request reed edu rally send requests rally request stratus com send requests jjn cblpf att com saabs send requests saab network mhs compuserve com saturn send requests saturn request oar net school high performance driving schools send requests school request balltown cma com sentra send requests request pencom com supras send requests supras request vicor com toyota send requests toyota request quack sac triumph send requests jtc ccwf utexas edu volvos requests swedishbricks request rochester edu wheel wheel racing forum for race drivers workers crew and wannabes send requests wheeltowheel request abingdon sun com cars nissan datsun send requests car request dixie com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation race car about either its pitch roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos the rec autos archive server archive name rec autos part the automotive articles archive server the automotive archive server the process being rehosted and presently not available richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation race car about either its pitch roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos frequently asked questions archive name rec autos part this article one pair articles containing commonly asked automotive questions the other article contains questions general consumer interest and broken out facilitate crossposting misc consumers rpw last change february now permits radar detector usage new tire traction rpw commonly asked questions radar questions where are radar detectors illegal the currently virgina and the district columbia prohibit all usage radar detectors new york prohibits their use large trucks canada they are illegal manitoba ontario quebec newfoundland and pei prince edward island they are apparently are illegal through most not all europe legislation which would make them illegal pending many other jurisdictions chances such legislation passing varies great deal where are radar detector detectors used they really work usage spreading rapidly initially they were used only canada but now they are appearing new york and virginia unsafe assume that they are not use connecticut and they work detecting certain frequency radiated many currently available super het radar detectors some brands detector radiate more strongly than others and are thus more likely spotted new radar detectors are becoming available which may not detected the current generation detector detectors note that detector may only spotted one these devices turned what vascar some kind radar vascar nothing more than fancy stopwatch and time speed distance computer depends the operator pressing buttons the target vehicle passes landmarks radar signals are emitted vascar system what band radar where used should radar detector able handle band has recently been made available the fcc for use the called photo radar installations these installations low powered beam aimed across the road degree angle the direction traffic and picture taken vehicles which the radar unit determines have been violation the speed limit tickets are mailed the owner the vehicle because the low power and the degree angle many people believe that radar detector cannot give reasonable warning band radar unit although some manufacturers radar detectors have added such capability anyway the number locales where photo radar use limited and some question the legality such units best advice learn what photo radar units look like and keep track where they are used else don speed radar jammers work are they legal quick answer and not the usa detailed answer cheap radar jammers not work well all jammers that work are expensive and usually the property the military jammers are major violation the regulations the federal communications commission the usa driving technique and vehicle dynamics questions what are understeer and oversteer understeer and oversteer are terms describing the behaviour car while cornering near the limit limit adhesion that most drivers not normally drive hard enough for these terms descriptive the situations they encounter simply put they tell whether the car wants straight corner steer less understeer wants turn more corner oversteer understeer commonly designed into most production cars that untrained drivers inadvertantly traveling too fast won get into trouble understeer may also induced using too much throttle corner oversteer designed into some more performance oriented cars may induced lifting the throttle trailing throttle oversteer tto extreme cases lifting the throttle may induce much oversteer that the car reacts fishtailing spinning some technical details corner speed the tires the car will develop what are called slip angles the slip angle the angular difference between the direction that the car traveling and the direction that the steering wheel directing the car travel understeer the front wheels have greater slip angle than the rear wheels oversteer the rear wheels have greater slip angle than the front wheels what rev matched downshift when downshifting the engine must rotating faster the lower gear than was the higher gear however during downshift normally you declutch and lift your foot from the throttle the revs drop rather than increase rev matched downshift you blip the throttle before engaging the clutch that the engine will already the new speed this results much smoother and faster downshift what does heel and toe mean heel and toe technique used rev matched downshift while braking this normally challenging because you need the right foot for both the brake and throttle called heel and toe because you use one end the foot the brake and the other the throttle match revs for the downshift many modern cars this misnomer often you must use the ball the foot the brake and the right side the throttle note that some race car drivers will skip the clutch and just use the left foot the brake and the right foot the throttle accomplishing the same thing what double clutch downshifting while your right foot doing the above your left foot can one three things nothing declutch once declutch twice the reason for declutching twice match the speeds the two shafts the transmission the speed the engine this usually coupled with rev matching that while the engine neutral and the clutch engaged the throttle blipped and both shafts the transmission speed the procedure follows declutch move gearshift lever neutral engage clutch match revs declutch move gearshift lever next lower gear engage clutch this sounds like lot work but with practice becomes natural the problem that double clutching solves normally the function the synchronizers within the gearbox transmissions without synchros with very worn synchros double clutching makes much easier shift basically you double clutch well you are not using the synchros all this generally unnecessary street cars with synchros good condition what the numbers for acceleration from mile skidpad and slalom times the auto magazines really mean may they compared short not much the magazines want you believe and almost never more detail the acceleration numbers mph and mile times the may vaguely compared long they all come from the same source testing procedures vary much from magazine magazine that comparing road track number car driver number quite pointless keep mind too that the same variation applies from driver driver the street the driver major often the major part the equation skidpads vary and even they didn skidpad figures are really only tests the stickiness the stock tires they change radically when tire compounds change not make any assumptions about the comparative handling say two sports sedans based skidpad numbers this not suggest that skidpads are without value however skidpads are excellent educational tool driving schools they are simply limited value the comparison anything except tires slalom times are slightly more useful they test some small parts the automobile transient response however they are also heavily influenced the stock rubber the car and they not test many corners the car envelope they not tell you all you need know before making buying decision for example they don tell you what the rear end the car will road which suddenly goes off camber when car has adjustable suspension these tests are usually done the sport setting which may quite unsuitable for daily driving the list caveats could for page after page buddy claims that wide tires don make any difference according his freshman physics textbook and that you can ever accelerate corner more than does know what talking about short hasn got clue more detail the equations for friction used freshman physics textbooks presume that the surfaces are smooth dry and non deformable none which properly apply tire traction except the case stone cold tire dry pavement which far below its proper operating temperature pavement never smooth always irregular greater lesser extent tires which are not really dry and solid rubber substance which its natural form liquid and which has only been coerced into semblance solidity chemical magic deform match the surface the pavement which vehicle traveling over tire operating temperature grip actually generated shear stresses inside the deformed rubber and not anything even remotely resembling friction the freshman physics sense the term the colder tire relative its operating temperature the closer its behaviour will the traditional concept friction much hotter than the its proper operating temperature the more likely the possibility some part the tire actually reverting liquid which mostly like happen deep the tread causing characteristic blisters and chunking this latter though almost completely unlikely happen normal street driving unless you competition driver lot high speed track driving don worry about because tire traction completely out the domain simple friction does not obey the freshman physics equation all thus dragsters accelerate more than and race cars corner and brake more than because simple friction does not apply actually possible for different sized contact patches generate differing amounts grip actual analysis tire behavior would require techniques such finite element analysis due the complexity the mechanism misc questions what does name acronym stand for here list some the names which are commonly asked about careful soliciting the meanings other names misinformation abounds the net particular never ask rec humor you want useful result saab svenska aeroplan the swedish airplane corporation alfa societa anonima lombarda fabbrica automobili the lombardy automobile manufacturing company fiat fabbrica italiana automobili torino the italian automobile manufacturers turin bmw bayerische motoren werke bavarian motor works morris garage does own porsche porsche publicly held company controlled the porsche and piech families porsche has extensive business dealings with audi which causes some confusion since currently porsche some financial difficulty there possibility that mercedes may interested purchasing the company the near future but this only speculation this time richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation race car about either its pitch roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	rec autos automotive mailing lists how set your own archive name rec autos part new article february rpw many people want set mailing lists for their favorite automotive topics rather fewer know how this article will provide the essential information for doing standard unix systems shell script and examples alias file setups are included which presently run sparc here balltown cma com for number mailing lists note that you set automotive mailing list please let know the request address that can list the montly rec autos posting also inform the keeper the usenet list lists check news answers for this monthly posting first all get anywhere you need either sysadmin have some measure assistance from your sysadmin also important that you have reasonably good network connectivity seems like you get everything several days after anyone else that you have trouble getting email through then your network connectivity probably not good enough listserv there handy automated mailing list package named listserv which available from several ftp servers the network details the installation and operation listserv are beyond the scope this article but anyone who considering running large mailing list should probably look listserv carefully the alias file typical unix system there file named usr lib aliases whichever file server your mail host contains lines such foo bar baz bletch which means that any email sent the name foo that host redistributed users bar baz and bletch thus the simplest possible email list favorite car member member member address favorite car request address this has couple problems the most noticeable one being that you have superuser edit the alias file however you can the following with the connivance your sysadmin favorite car include home mydir misc autos favorite car list favorite car request address where the file specified list comma and newline separated addresses this file can the list admin home directory owned the list admin bounced mail this still has problem bounced mail usually gets distributed all the members the list which generally considered somewhat irritating therefore the way that the driving school mailing list set instructive thanks harpal chohan the bmw list for this setup the way not sure where got from school request welty school rebroadcast include home newwelty misc autos school list school usr local adm bin explscript school owner school school request owner school out school request here what going here the owner and request addresses are intended traps for bounced mail coming from the network the request address also serves the point contact for administrative duties school what people send mail instead pointing addresses points shell script which rewrites headers before resending the email school broadcast which nobody except knows the name the name has been changed here protect own sanity points the actual list members the shell script use follows bin tmp sed reply sender from echo reply balltown cma com echo errors request balltown cma com echo sender request balltown cma com cat usr lib sendmail request balltown cma com the mailing list rebroadcast exit note that this script does not know the name the list the name passed from outside that the script may used for multiple lists run several out this site the script excises reply sender and from lines from the incoming message substitutes for sender and reply and adds errors all email bounce messages end being sent the request owner addresses this header rewrite done for digested lists there some digestification software around hopefully able provide more information future version this posting richard welty welty balltown cma com richard welty welty cabot balltown cma com nothing good has ever been reported about the full rotation race car about either its pitch roll axis carroll smith
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article wichitaks ncr com jhart wichitaks ncr com jim hart writes article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu writes top list dumbest automotive concepts ever dodge colt vista tachometer only avail with automatic trans back lights corvette they the sides the car sure would interested know what year this was don seem recall any car with back lights the sides much less any corvette suppose could mis interpreting what you are trying say here just quick comment backup lights mounted the side would actually extremely useful for people backing out parking stalls regards charles within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	warning please read this two sided problem unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time the breeding these low life getting worse our justice system best extremely weak handle these problems that why low abiding citizens should have the power protect themselves and their property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent camaro pride and joy got stolen right out driveway few years back the persons that did that were eventually caught lucky for but not before having trashed the car another occasion way from texas florida had stopped small motel for the night small town somewhere florida about youths were disturbing car setting off the alarm and challenging come out when and another tenant walked out with magnum and automatic respectively they vanished needless say immediately packed and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can deadly steve heracleous
rec.autos	warning please read ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi writes what the hell happening this great country ours can see boyhood pranks peeing off bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low you make sound like this behavior new isn lot pedestrian bridges have fencing that curls over the sidewalk make this kind think lot harder don understand the mentality myself but then again couldn figure out move glad they bombed the waco wackos either newsgroup list trimmed significantly jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr colorado edu drew kinglear colorado edu drew eckhardt writes most cars have drain petcocks the radiators and never seen nor heard vandal opening one imagine that there would even lower risk with oil plug because you have crawl furthur under the car open car vandals are usually real traditional their methods and things that don get them dirty like keying your car dumping sand sugar mothballs the gas tank tping etc usually enough places and you see stuff happen you didn think did steve
rec.autos	mazda parts whitney their number they are based chicago case you need call dir assistance their prices are more down earth than any other source for car innards outers they will send you free catalog neeraj
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes top list dumbest automotive concepts ever back lights corvette they the sides the car sure would interested know what year this was don seem recall any car with back lights the sides much less any corvette suppose could mis interpreting what you are trying say here just quick comment backup lights mounted the side would actually extremely useful for people backing out parking stalls while can think any corvettes with side mounted backup lights know that saab started using them about years ago saab didn have them but friend saab certainly did addition the confentional tail light mounted backup lights they had another set integrated into the front turn signal assembly for those you who don remember saabs that vintage had enormous multicoloured plastic growth about the size national geographic magazine sticking out the front fender which incorporated amber parking lights amber side marker lights reflectors white cornering lamps like american luxury cars aimed towards the side the road when you have your turn indicators and white backup lights aimed towards the back the car when you have selected reverse gear the glossy brochure showed how these front mounted backup lights were useful for illuminating hazards pot holes kid toys etc that would run over the front the car you had the wheels turned while backing mart molle computer systems research institute university toronto toronto canada
rec.autos	aftermarket units article qcaueinnmt axon unc edu andrew brandt writes looked into getting installed honda crx the unit plus shipping installation like hours top that this hunk change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket installation not with honda unit but some third party unit cannot seem find anyone who can put third party unit honda carolina would prefer some place nearby but any references would handy thx andy brandt unc edu les bartel comments sorry can help you with your question but have comment make concerning aftermarket units have frost king frost temp forget which aftermarket unit cavalier and quite unhappy with the fan noisy and doesn put out much air will never have aftermarket installed any vehicles again just can trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel going live forever let add had installed the ford garage and did not work well the that was installed the factory pickups identical mine have talked other people that have had the same result don know this just probable with ford what ernie smith
rec.autos	aftermarket units article qcaueinnmt axon unc edu andrew brandt writes looked into getting installed honda crx the unit plus shipping installation like hours top that this hunk change does anyone know any place that does aftermarket installation not with honda unit but some third party unit cannot seem find anyone who can put third party unit honda carolina would prefer some place nearby but any references would handy thx andy brandt unc edu les bartel comments sorry can help you with your question but have comment make concerning aftermarket units have frost king frost temp forget which aftermarket unit cavalier and quite unhappy with the fan noisy and doesn put out much air will never have aftermarket installed any vehicles again just can trust the quality and performance after this experience les les bartel going live forever let add had installed the ford garage and did not work well the that was installed the factory pickups identical mine have talked other people that have had the same result don know this just problem with ford what ernie smith
rec.autos	jeep laredo experiences have been looking buying jeep laredo and was wondering anyone had any bad good experiences with this model all that much different than the other yjs looks feels and sounds like nice vehicle even thought the price rather steep for canadian don bnr
rec.autos	curious about the porsche drove yfn ysu edu albion bowers writes previous article wade rockwell com wade guthrie says takaharu mail sas upenn edu taka mizutani writes article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen amelio wrote wrote this consistent with the pre the engine before that was litre less depending how early you and got its power high revs starting slowly about and jumping around with narrow band the was litre and had lot smog equipment you got much power all better distributed through the rev range bzzzt wrong answer really depends whether you are talking model year date manufacture for instance mine was but was manufactured august prior all were liter for the and model years they were liter for the and model years they were liter except for the carerra which was liter the and later years were easily identified the new mph bumpers most models the year were lietsr except the carerra rsr which was liter carerras from were liter models they went liter and there was only single model the think cross between the and the carerra models note all the above are based model year not date manufacture stand corrected this all from memory mind you for the rev happy behavior the earlier cars are even more prone this the liter cars used low compression engines and suffered bit this regard the early liter and liter engines also got good dose smog gear well the and liter engines were far and away the quickest revvers the lot yeah that what was trying say really wade guthrie trying program dos like trying wade rockwell com shave with chain saw not speaking for the rock
rec.autos	warning please read article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about year ago the washington beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks down cars from overpass four five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting the front seat one them was struck the head one the larger rocks don recall she made but think she was comatose for month and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell happening this great country ours can see boyhood pranks peeing off bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society have known coming apart the seams the basic reason that human life has been devalued the point were killing someone big deal kid see hundreds murderous acts can abort children demand and kill the sick and old will why surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear life cheap
rec.autos	braindead drivers who don look ahead hhm cbnewsd att com herschel mayo writes block the would passers not only for own good but theirs well even though they are often too stupid realize rule philosophy don feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed his own stupidity but does worry when some idiot position cash chips too mayo zdem hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes well aren just altruism himself just what the world needs another frustrated self appointed traffic cop hhm cbnewsd att com herschel mayo writes well you want stick the nose your car the ass foot semi suppose your neck however not going let you kill the bargain you get frustrated somebody delaying your inevitable death due less that wise driving practices then tough well never wrote that would act you described stated that would not block would passer would not block would passer for their own good for any reason other than was prevented from doing due the traffic circumstance fail see how deterring passer under these circumstance would any way decrease your chances being involved accident fatal otherwise fact could imagine how blocking would passer would actually increase your chances being offed involved accident especially this passer riding your bumper intentionally blocking person riding your bumper certainly not wise driving practice only causes the jam become more congested don mess with trucks and actually watch the road ahead and the road behind perceive that rapidly closing pack vehicles try avoid getting caught situation such you decribe usually either traffic just building and have deal with this fact life wait slow passer complete their pass and make way for the pack clear someone decides then pull bumper signal intention move the right and the first opportunity hope they will open the jam feel this not only courteous driving but alot safer than the actions you advocate there are actually many courteous drivers the road who not intentionally impede others someone front seems oblivious the fact that they are blocking traffic use blinker flash lights all else fails will briefly speed slow down they might get the message that faster vehicle trying pass feel never safe ride anyone bumper someone intentionally blocking traffic because they feel that civil duty philosophic duty for some unfathomable reason feel they deserve the very least derision sorry this soooooooo long
rec.autos	bmw new plant greer anyone reading this message involved with the new bmw plant does bmw corporate even have net connection desperately seeking info jeff hagen hagenjd wfu edu
rec.autos	warning please read article armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi writes what the hell happening this great country ours can see boyhood pranks peeing off bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low you make sound like this behavior new isn lot pedestrian bridges have fencing that curls over the sidewalk make this kind think lot harder don understand the mentality myself but then again couldn figure out move glad they bombed the waco wackos either know that this isn the group for but since you brought does anyone have any idea why they haven bombed the waco cult just curious newsgroup list trimmed significantly jim frost jimf centerline com larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need explain you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes article wichitaks ncr com jhart wichitaks ncr com jim hart writes article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu writes top list dumbest automotive concepts ever dodge colt vista tachometer only avail with automatic trans back lights corvette they the sides the car sure would interested know what year this was don seem recall any car with back lights the sides much less any corvette suppose could mis interpreting what you are trying say here just quick comment backup lights mounted the side would actually extremely useful for people backing out parking stalls regards charles within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person wasn the original intent the reverse lights for the driver could see where was backing although reverse lights the sides are useful for telling whether cars are backing out perpendicular the path the car don think warnings were their original intents since they are colored white chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick judge quick anger slow understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand hand
rec.autos	lois chevrolet little bit off the subject but here goes yes one the same chevrolet motor div also his brother gaston raced indy and was the winner have also seen the name arthur chevrolet the early teens and assume related keith nuetzman nuet pts mot com motorola inc paging and wireless data group boynton beach see indy and yes
rec.autos	thinking about buying intrepid good bad idea bought intrepid about two months ago and very happy with lots room inside and even with the smaller engine has enough power for the only problem found was small selection the dealer lots they are hot sellers around here
rec.autos	changing oil self yes the big chunks down the sump the solution simple sort like the advice aunt always gave never scratch your ear with anything except your elbow you have pieces ring con rods valve heads stems just reach into the sump through the hole the block that was associated with the creation those large bits and pieces anything you can remove with one hand through the hole the block may safely left place
rec.autos	waxing new car have just taken delivery new car firebird with clearcoat finish assume that probably urethane since the industry has moved that direction paints years past used recommended that owners wait days before you wax car for the paint cure the dealer shop manager said this also but not sure that wasn just basing past tradition does anyone know this still recommended practice better ahead and wax right away non abrasive new car wax with the newer finishes terry quinn germantown hills tquinn heartland bradley edu from compuserve internet tquinn heartland bradley edu
rec.autos	tercel sunroof leaks arrggh there simple way tooput these sunroofs out their misery leaks tend from old gaskets from inadequate mechanical seals all the above there any way halt the rain thanks henry bruno kon office with machine home with machine
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences don know some lemons are out there but from personal experience brother has been trouble free not one single repair only regular maintainance the only work had done was result his stupidity stopped suddenly the middle left turn busy intersection and was rear ended has plymouth sundance would recomend but would also like say that you can wait about six months chryco coming out with new car called the neon that built the same way the where good luck with your desiscion
rec.autos	clear coat woes clear coat really worth yes the showroom floor the cars have this deep lustrous shine that just can found paint jobs that aren clear coated the other hand seems that every clear coated car that seen the road parking lot etc has fine scratches throughout the paint job does alas laser several weeks ago had car professionally polished and waxed when picked had that same showroom shine that remember from year ago when bought several days ago took car the dealership for some work added bonus they washed car unfortunately whoever washed either didn get the roof which black the rest the car red completely clean before dried used dirty towel now showroom shine haze fine scratches that aren really visible until the light hits the roof particular angle put mildy somewhat peeved about this have any chance getting the dealership something about this guess there any product the market that provides solution this problem faced with the prospect having the car professionally polished again hide the scratches information commiseration and sympathy all greatly appreciated scott the dealership will never wash car again borders sborders nyx edu borders scott tandem com
rec.autos	chryslers compact sedans rmt faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes aas cwru edu writes previous article mcqs ubvmsd buffalo edu adam gandler says heard chrysler planning design the process designing compact sedan line based the platform these were thought out the full sized sedans and priced competitively see reason why they could not give the imports and even the saturns serious challenge goody now get see saturns sold through cryco dealers fab why this hole insist remarks like this really growing tired this drew you have kill file for your newsreader put the name spencer kill file and that gives about less articles per day that have sift through
rec.autos	getting car need opinions have budget looking for sports car what you think would the best buy looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting schludermann sscvx ssc gov writes wondering anybody else out there clutchless shifter been doing self over miles current toyota truck got over heard people talk about how doing this can damage transmission experiences suggest otherwise what techniques you use yeah don use the clutch all the time either done with fords bmw datsun and chevy and works fine can think any reason that would damage the tranny essentially you are just doing what the synchros anyhow match the engine speed with the tranny speed and slip into gear some old pieces junk drove the transmission was worn that pumping the clutch was the only way shift except clutchless date driven rabbits datsuns comets fords chevy some where harder than others shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker easier they where shift technique ease back off the throttle and the same time gently wrist back the shift lever for some reason miss the shift window lightly press the accelerator try agian found that clutchless shifting eaiser quicker high rpms also skip gears some times using sounds about right usually slip out during throttle down and then blip the throttle and wait until feels like things are right usually about second and then slip into gear krispy jon you obviously don know who you dealing with gross jong halcyon com
rec.autos	acura integra speed have acura integra speed with miles positively the worst car have ever owned had prelude that had miles when sold and was still going strong this with religious attention maintenance such oil changes etc both cars were driven exactly the same manner has gone through two clutches which are underrated sets tires really eats tires the front even with careful align all struts started leaking about miles windshield wiper motor burned service note this one seek stop working radio about miles two timing belts constant error signals from computer and finally rod bearing went out the piston seriously damaging the crankshaft contaminating the engine etc when the overhaul was done last week required new crankshaft one new cam shaft has two because the camshaft shattered when they tried mill the camshaft took weeks get because national back order everything the engine unique the year they went new design parts are very expensive way would ever buy another acura highly overrated
rec.autos	most bang for article apr lehigh edu rwf lehigh edu obert william fusi writes article uupcb cutting hou david bonds cutting hou vid bonds writes rec autos cpkjp latech edu kevin parker writes like get some feedback car with most bang for the buck the price range looking for car with enough civility driven every day even long trips but when hit the gas want take look taurus sho they can found for and are the ultimate door sports cars performance similar mustang but quite civil and comfortable try get late model for the better shifter the cutting edge bbs cutting hou pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb well you could always with mustang with pleasant but the diamond star cars talon eclipse laser put out the turbo models and the awd turbo models these cars also have handling match the muscle and are civil regular driving conditions rather than having harsh stiff ride the awd turbo clearly the better choice the two because all that torque steer the front drive model but you may have with leftover slightly used model for that price range tough decision rob fusi rwf lehigh edu car and driver did test with the same basic idea and chose the ford probe course
rec.autos	too fast article shaman tek com andrew frip tek com andrew klossner ites can ask have any you been the speed rush cocaine what your point andrew klossner andrew frip tek com yeah and the cop couldn catch
rec.autos	too fast article shaman tek com andrew frip tek com andrew klossner ites can ask have any you been the speed rush cocaine what your point andrew klossner andrew frip tek com don know about the cocaine but
rec.autos	new alarm proposal article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb dan day writes article qeee armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost rites audible alarm just annoyance either professional amateur nobody listens audible alarms anymore the thieves know this why think there ought heavy fine false alarms really honked off about the fact that due all the cars with cruddy alarms crying wolf one will pay any attention car its alarm ever goes off for real depends your area the city nobody thinks about but mall something near the suburbs people least glance over remember alarm only deterent not prevention thief sees two cars likes one has alarm and the other doesn obviously going skip the alarmed car and avoid the hassle there way around every alarm but least you got something your side rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	getting car need opinions good luck
rec.autos	curious about you please satisfy curiosity interested finding out who using the mail system please not flood with mail after april thanks maria alice ruth mao psuvm bitnet psuvm psu edu are you male female how long have you been using the mail system how you have access work school etc who taught you how use the system that person male female have you helped anyone learn the system was that person male female which net did you find questions which other nets are you interested how often you read post the system
rec.autos	toyota land cruiser worth response post about suv got several unsolicited recommendations check out the land cruiser despite its astronomical price the toyota dealer told cult car car good enough create passionate and loyal following there must something really extraordinary about all you land crusher cultists here your chance convert jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc
rec.autos	sentra plannig trade sentra with car has miles and model the the dealer selling model with miles has bar roof and airbag which sentra does not have they are asking for that fair deal the only thing noticed about the that the engine did not seem have much torque sentra which has the same identical engine presume that the last lady owner did not really push the engine limits occassionaly while did that mine thuis the engine little tight buy the and excercise well should that slight power problem away any advice this will much appreciated thanks please reply via mail possible motion picture major the brooks institute photography santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind the forerunner all states
rec.autos	warning please read article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias writes article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about year ago the washington beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks down cars from overpass four five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting the front seat one them was struck the head one the larger rocks don recall she made but think she was comatose for month and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell happening this great country ours can see boyhood pranks peeing off bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low yes nobody watching them they get caught there punishment all the old days such behaviour would rewarded with whipping with good sized belt and then taken into some hospital see first hand what kind damage such accidents cause course this doesn happen any more that whipping would probably save the kid life teaching him some respect for others person with that little respect would inevitably wind dead early anyway the problem creeping gradualism you put frog into hot water just jumps out but you put him into cold water and then ever gradually heat the frog will cook this what the entertainment industry and lack religious moral and educational standards our modern north american society have done over the years now that are about cooked may have woken too late erik velapold society have known coming apart the seams the basic reason that human life has been devalued the point were killing someone big deal kid see hundreds murderous acts can abort children demand and kill the sick and old will why surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear life cheap and the education system and the religious leaders aren doing much about either with both parents working this society where the stabilizing influence home latchkey children are everywhere and these latchkey kids can watch whatever rotten videos and listen whatever violent hate promoting music and videos they like because one home stop this day and age when there about times more things learn than when went school our answer this increased knowledge shorter school hours and more leisure time say keep the kids school longer feed them good food and teach them something and when they get home have parent there interact and monitor them there very old and now forgotten proverb child left his own will bring parent grief daycare systems are not the answer this just shifting the parents own responsibilities off someone else whom not life long committment but rather just job followups should alt parents teens fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university british columbia vancouver canada these are opinions which should only make you read think and question they not necessarily reflect the views employer fellow workers
rec.autos	warning please read article neilson apr seoul mpr neilson seoul mpr robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that why low abiding citizens should have the power protect themselves and their property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous you have the power steve you can why don you why don you shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take from those kids are mean this last comment was obviously bit cynical but true statement the attitude some drivers there your autos content would say what law abiding not low abiding above talk about freudian slips citizens have the right and responsibility try prevent this type behaviour children doctor may have use deadly force against part body like amputating when infection disease has gone too far but his real desire would have been prevent the disease the first place least nip the bud followups should alt parents teens fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university british columbia vancouver canada these are opinions which should only make you read think and question they not necessarily reflect the views employer fellow workers
rec.autos	warning please read article joit bcstec boeing com neil bcstec boeing com neil williams writes long the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding the front toyota pickup heading south interstate north seattle someone threw rock overpass and hit our windshield not accident sure was impossible get the overpass quickly see who did figured was kids reported and left couple years ago happend again and killed guy company was his mid fourties and left behind wife and children turned out there was reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did they put cover over the overpass what else could they don think over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue neil what did they the year old who they caught what did the man insurance company this could significant and any case very interesting followups alt parents teens fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university british columbia vancouver canada these are opinions which should only make you read think and question they not necessarily reflect the views employer fellow workers
rec.autos	manual shift bigots article news cso uiuc edu mchaffee dcl nxt michael chaffee writes performance converter lockup purely irrelevant the lockup only occurs light throttle settings and serves only improve mpg mind you converter clutch does lovely job improving mpg but the additional mechanical advantage the converter gives you more acceleration locked converter clutch than its inherent losses take away the transmission car contradicts both your assertions get much stronger acceleration let the convertor lockup which can induce briefly lifting off then quickly but not too quickly trigger kickdown applying throttle above rpms the convertor will never unlock would kickdown first who says there skill involved driving automatic think the throttle and shifter combined into single pedal with car can pretty much influence its shifting patterns with right foot while having both hands steer eliot
rec.autos	bimmer beamer although not direct response the referenced article just set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please let get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer round tail light mark
rec.autos	warning please read could plase cease this discussion fail see why people feel the need expound upon this issue for days and days end these areas are not meant for this type discussion you feel the need such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks want only two things from this world plymouth and small opec nation with which fuel this would good and just thing car smashers can just home and sulk jacques brouillette manufacturing engineering
rec.autos	insurance rates performance cars summary recently posted article asking what kind rates single male drivers under yrs old were paying performance cars here summary the replies received not under anymore but close enough dodge stealth twin turbo model tickets accidents own house have taken defensive driving airbag abs security alarm single year decut state farm insurance this includes the additional for the umbrella policy over car and house the base policy the standard policy required after defensive driving course will less bought the car september the company was with never had and accident ticket years quoted hope this helps steve flynn university delaware kevin hope remembered your name correctly you asked about insurance for performance cars well last year was similar situation before bought car and made the same inquiry you age then and now car eagle talon tsi awd driving record clean state illinois cost mos turn may and the insurance goes down mos also single and that incurs higher rate with company got couple other friends awds and they pay more than different ins companies also maybe just lucky hope the info helps dan dans jdc gss mot com motorola cellular subscriber group usa live norman oklahoma drive thunderbird have never made claim against insurance though have been hit several times negligent drivers who couldn see stop signs were fiddling with their radios and have had three moving violations the last months one for going one for failure clear intersection still say the damn light was yellow and one for going which didn record rates from state farm with passive restraint deduction liability deductible comprehensive and deductible collision are roughly year was paying just over year for escort james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven beyond the under age group but have experience few years ago that might interesting you owned toyota celica decided buy myself gift more exotic car front runners included the toyota supra turbo and the porsche model years narrowed down those two liked the simplicity and handling and snob appeal too driving porsche the supra turbo was less money and had more features and performance almost personal luxury car had better acceleration and higher top speed than the was almost ready give buying impulse for the but decided stop insurance agent office the way asked about what would happen rate with either car you buy the supra your rate classification will the same the celica the celica was considered subcompact and for that year was rated one the safest cars with slight increase because the car will years newer our lower risk division will continue handle your account you buy the porsche have change you the standard higher rate company and your rate will double and you with another story again cover the rest this year but cancel you after that but the supra much faster than the and the actually faster than the standard that doens make sense that what the book says don insure corvettes either for some reason the underwriters consider supras and their drivers very traditional and conservative eventually went with the supra for number reasons the porsche dealer had nice salesman get interested but tough high pressure guy the back room equal monthly payments would have taken year longer pay for the porsche plus its higher insurance concluded that the high insurance was related probability auto theft everyone entitled opinion goldberg oasys navy mil imagination more important than knowledge albert einstein live idaho when was many years ago years bought trans new insurance was about year when turned immediately dropped year had not had any accidents before after this was strictly age change that same rate stayed pretty much the same until sold the car years ago pickup about year less the real amazing thing that when woke age felt much more responsible than was before wes for your information california male single under moving violation alfa spider year what bargain let see single male clean driving record have corrado live san jose california pay year through allstate good deal you ask was thinking about getting talon but think the insurance higher for turbo sports car honda crx clean record small new mexico town was around per year age nearby city rates were higher than where got mine insured robert robert stack institute transportation studies univ california irvine stack translab its uci edu mazda protege per year saturn years old state new mexico insurance state farm here info car toyota celica insurance farmer insurance yearly insurance age date license oct residence mountain view california moving violations for now atleast hope this helps please post summary possible vijay vijay anisetti email anisetti informix com apt off single years old eagle talon turbo awd full cover reasonable liability tickets violations accidents knock wood mass one thing that makes huge difference mass the town you live personally one the best towns within reasonable distance boston moved the absolute best would down about moved the worst would also one accident and couple tickets would probably add another have mitsubishi eclipse turbo awd years old and have tickets that went record live illinois just outside chicago and pay year with full coverage state farm did get small discount because alarm system year only live miles from chicago but actually lived the city the price would about year over but case you interested anyway insuring sho for month thats personal total property with deductible glass and towing state farm unless you are under have been driving for less than years think you are being seriously ripped off don have one the performance cars you listed but your record clean then you should not paying over did you try calling all the insurance dealers you could find although rates are supposed standardized found that most places initially call give some ridiculously high quote and finaly hit one that much lower also have changed insurance companies when the rate went renewal accidents tickets car gets older maintain low rate you always have careful when comes insurance companies good luck serge
rec.autos	header for honda civic hello looking slightly increase the performance honda civic was wondering anyone could suggest upgrades that were not too drastic thought that one the easiest upgrades would new header does anyone know what kind increase that the header would give think would check with jackson racing for the part are there any other comparines would make honda parts are there any other small changes that can easily made and won screw the car things like new injectors new fuel injection chip etc would welcome any suggestions small changes that would make difference don really want change the cam etc because have heard that would much harder the engine mail relpies prefered please and will post summary all the replies thanks for any help you may have offer jeff smith jsmith dal dalhousie university halifax
rec.autos	impala going into production qazi csd csd uwm edu writes from the latest issue autoweek the chevy impala will arrive dealer showrooms mid dealers have already been notified word the changes made for the production version question all you would you buy and how much would you pay for aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint alright finally wishes have come true moby dick with corvette engine don you think they should maybe spend the money doing something about the lousy build quality design their bigger selling cars this another example why much trouble you going stick the engine car least make nice looking one sheesh
rec.autos	chrysler new yorker lhs was chryslers compact sedans warren brown the washington post auto writer was the first journalist get his hands the new yorker you like his impressions his review appeared friday paper the weekend section not your traditional auto writer enjoy
rec.autos	bimmer beamer article apr newsgate sps mot com markm latium mark monninger writes although not direct response the referenced article just set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please huh though beamers were ibm employees let get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer round tail light mark
rec.autos	for sale celica repair manuals two volume soft cover repair manuals for all models toyota celicas probably good for models well like new condition these are the manuals used the toyota dealers mechanics they normally cost over new obo brian donnell brian gothamcity jsc nasa gov
rec.autos	parts does anyone know dead first generation need body parts steering rack and few minor pieces was about buy parts car but the owner backed out after month pulling leg arrrrgh mike
rec.autos	improvements automatic transmissions the biggest hurdle for automatics imho not shifting speed per but rather the transmission reaction speed when you try force shift manually this was the biggest fault with the subaru ecvt took soooooo lonnnnnnnnggggg for the tranny find the right ratio the sales propaganda says the saturn automatic effectively electronically shifted manual might this mean that saturn has conquered the problem dunno only driven saturn speeds input please another question any plans for manual trans chrysler does anyone else out there fall asleep night dreaming this combo
rec.autos	slick any good chances are that this has been discussed death already and could someone who has kept the discussion mail direct archive site basically just wondering slick really does all says that does and also there any data support the claim thanks for any info mike davis mad fermi clas virginia edu
rec.autos	lois chevrolet the chevrolet brothers were respected racers test drivers for the buick when durant was there when the directors kicked durant out took chevrolet and others with him mentioned before they founded the successful chevrolet company little known fact that the chevrolet actually took over that was how durant got back charge legally his new company chevrolet did the buying and was division chevrolet after and into the sloan era shuffled things that the board was superior but there was always degree autonomy given the chevy division presumably because the initial structure you look the organization chart for sloan book chevy division reports directly floor not through the passenger car division which covers buick olds cadillac and oakland pontiac jeff hagen minor deity worthless auto trivia hagenjd wfu edu
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article cellar org blu cellar org dan reed writes fact just leave the valet key glovebox for whenever need that will make easy for car thief saves him her the trouble popping your ignition dick grady salem usa grady world std com many newsgroups little time
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak tulin writes just started reading this thread today forgive has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault putting the horn the left hand turn signal stalk was button the end where the washer button would the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel what ford tried that also back ranger pickup had the horn the end the turn signal stalk instead the center the wheel where god intended drove two different cars then the other camry and never did get used pushing the turn signal stalk blow the horn the only time got right was when was getting the annual state required safety inspection not one ford better ideas dick grady salem usa grady world std com many newsgroups little time
rec.autos	where can get new york taxi wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes actually you want checker special you can find one good luck sorry let mine grew new york city rode many checker cabs the jump seats were fun kid although the cars were roomy good trait for taxi they had design flaw that don understand they never fixed the rear passengers tended fall out their seats when the driver braked wouldn want take long ride the back seat one these vehicles why did you like yours never drove one have ask tommy reingold bell labs holmdel tommy boole att com att boole tommy
rec.autos	seating ergonomics headroom article amiller almaden ibm com amiller almaden ibm com alex miller writes physical therapist has suggested that good driving position for have back nearly vertical and for knees not much higher than hips are there any cars that are particularly good respect having both headroom and well designed seat height take look mini vans sat dodge caravan which had high seat and plenty headroom dick grady salem usa grady world std com many newsgroups little time
rec.autos	improvements automatic transmissions hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes the biggest hurdle for automatics imho not shifting speed per but rather the transmission reaction speed when you try force shift manually rented oldsmobile achieva that yuppie name what and nissan stanza they both had automatics manual transmission bigot but have admit that the transmissions these cars were better shifters than and yes they responded very quickly kickdown requests the nissan had tachometer was able figure out which gear was the olds may have also but don remember believe shifted all the way down second about mph when foot told really want accelerate quickly would still prefer manual but won delude myself into thinking that can out accelerate modern automatic and very smooth shifting but certainly not good automatic tommy reingold bell labs holmdel tommy boole att com att boole tommy
rec.autos	 everyone getting car the near future narrow down and which might better choice thanks for your opnion danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work
rec.autos	prizm radio question was lloking the geo prizm lsi today very nice anyway had questions that the salesperson couldn answer how does the theft deterrent the prizm audio systems work can find the answer any geo lterature thanks advance archie holmes
rec.autos	opinions recent alfa spiders anyone have any opinions fairly recent model alfa spiders reliablilty for what their class not talking alfa toyota corrola which more relaible far can discern recent years there are levels with all basically the same mechanical aspects please email any responses ted schreiber mechanical enginering northwestern university tel fax email rts nwu edu
rec.autos	mazda just does not feel right the car might also need front end alignment particularly you describing wandering
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam article libemc byuvm bitnet libemc byuvm bitnet writes mark states his post know the dealer price and offer above husband and are the market buy our first car together and neither know how about how you find out the dealer price are their books look you send away somewhere for several company publish periodicals times year which list the sticker prices and the dealer invoice prices all the cars and their options edmund the name one such price guide you can find these price guides most places which sell magazines dick grady salem usa grady world std com many newsgroups little time
rec.autos	traffic rules intersections presently doing masters thesis with traffic intersections new zealand but lot the books researching from are from america australia and was wondering anyone could please tell what the road rules are either country with regard intersections thanks julian visch jsv math canterbury
rec.autos	eagle talon tsi lemon dear netters looking buy used eagle talon tsi awd question that the tsi awd was mentioned the april consumer reports car avoid particular the manual transmission electrical system and brakes were below par both models friend mine ownes tsi awd and has had brake jobs pads one stuck valve and some clutch transmission problem something about sticking grinding into second gear this doesn seem too bad one beats his car willing suffer reliability for speed and looks seems you have pay big buck you want all three anyway can anyone please let know how you like your talon and any problems you may have had and the repairs are worth thanks for any responses jay
rec.autos	dumb options list article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes the idea here list pointless options you know stuff you get car that has earthly use power windows like power windows think they worth however cruise control pretty dumb option what the point you long trip you floor the gas and keep your eyes the rear view mirror for cops right power seats are pretty dumb too unless you unlucky enough have share your car otherwise you just adjust once and just leave like that allen tom you not like the others you like the same atom soda berkeley edu things wax paper boiled football atom netcom com leather dog breath not hitchhiking anymore riding ren
rec.autos	wife wants convertible you hold off there are number interesting convertibles coming market the next few years the new lebaron will based the mitsubishi galant which should improvement over the current model the new compact will have convertible option also chrysler product kia makers the ford festiva planning larger convertible steve morris internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept direct seattle
rec.autos	improvements automatic transmissions excellent automatic can found the subaru legacy switches sport mode when the electronics figure not when the driver sets the switch which the proper way imo what does sport mode entail several things revving red line the rev limiter the case the legacy delayed upshifts you lift off briefly will remain the low gear this handy you are charging through corners and would like without the distraction upshifts when there another curve approaching part throttle downshifts based the speed which the pedal depressed rather than the position the pedal modern electronics can measure this very easily and switch sport mode this wonderful you want charge through green light about turn red audi senses this very well and can downshift little half throttle right foot fast enough also think that smart automatic can deliver better gas mileage than dumb driver with stick all else being equal remember that the idea stick being more economical than automatic makes big assumption that the driver smart enough know what gear use for each situation how many times have you ridden with inattentive driver cruising the highway gear speed how many people who drive manuals really know what the best gear use for every conceivable situation sure there will some who know but suspect that chip controlled automatic with all possible scenario ratio combinations stored rom likely better can also say that all previous assumptions were proved wrong after got car with instantaneous mpg readout high gear low revs and wide open throttle more economical than low gear high revs and small throttle opening the explanation quite simple one sits down think about but not that obvious first sight eliot
rec.autos	taurus sable rotor recall get about taurus sables for fleet cars our site every year then the company sells them year later employees the folks know who drive buy them have complaints the cars seem drive real nice too
rec.autos	manual shift bigots rec autos you write ayrton senna can drive racecar with fully automatic transmission can half bad this mclaren auto transmission still think only half auto but you may right has nothing with your chrysler volvo whatever auto transmission normal manual transmission gearbox with clutch and all but there are servo motors which the shifting that means there power loss the drivetrain you take out minimal mechanical friction and the sami auto transmissions ferrari williams mclaren don tell you when shift either however these transmissions share important disadvantage with your stock auto trannie they are expensive long these servo shifted gearboxes aren available normal cars gonna stick with manual just can see advantage make for two grand lose this deal and the loss mileage and power except maybe real heavy traffic but then drive mostly the autobahn and country roads anyway there point making religion out this just wanted point out few technical facts and own opinion there need for flame war eliot have safe ride chris
rec.autos	 lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes everyone getting car the near future narrow down and which might better choice thanks for your opnion danny been asking myself this same question for the past year when you find out would you please share the magistic answer with the way see right now work twice hard you can have both cheers issa
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting jong halcyon com barking weasel writes schludermann sscvx ssc gov writes technique ease back off the throttle and the same time gently wrist back the shift lever for some reason miss the shift window lightly press the accelerator try agian found that clutchless shifting eaiser quicker high rpms also skip gears some times using sounds about right usually slip out during throttle down and then blip the throttle and wait until feels like things are right usually about second and then slip into gear how did you guys learn this something you were born with did you make horrible grinding noises the first few times how many times would think you have have certain amount feel for begin with some people would never get and others like would never have the guts try unless maybe you were planning buy new transmission anyway btw heard that quite few truckers and race car drivers shift this way zaphod madnix uucp ron bean uwvax astroatc nicmad madnix zaphod
rec.autos	time chrysler buyer off really hello world just bought new stealth two weeks ago got grad student rebate someone told that there another reabet for time chrysler buyer true yes can still get too late mubashir cheema sparco communications lagalarie fax russell street suite email mac msstate edu starkville
rec.autos	passat advice sought currently the car market and would like opinions passat glx how does compare toyota camry thought the car looked very solid stable and european only disappointment far that that doesn offer airbao next question why isn offering automobiles with airbags should pay the extra three thousand for bmw even though smaller and less powerful than than the passat
rec.autos	getting car need opinions article apr lehigh edu lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes have budget looking for sports car what you think would the best buy well for bit more you could get mazda definitely best for under you stuck with particular order chevy camaro ponitac firebird firehawk ford mustang cobra toyota turbo gmc typhoon travis
rec.autos	for hail damage record was the great storm mazda mpv was damaged bad they are going replace the top doors and hood black they will repaint the entire vehicle estimated cost around and repair time approx weeks rremaley bcm tmc edu
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come with several substitutes for you don hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that the people who stand rake that per retrofit per automobile have mounted organized campaign squash those substitutes out existence not ban them altogether very shaky technical grounds best outright lies worst now not saying you wrong because know that the substitutes exist but this sounds lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep all from getting sounds crazy but true one the best subsitutes ghg currently commercial product unfortunately the sae committee mobile air conditioning comprised almost exclusively macs members such being the case papers about any alternative refrigerant other than have been accepted for review publication john you want provide some more details should just repost your voluminous repost later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs here are very interested info substitutes fact think really need all the info this can get would really appreciate technical supply and hardware upgrade details also useful solvent reagent the extraction production certain pharmaceuticals any info the substitutes corresponding usefullness currently working with the local engineers who are making sure are compliant with the regulations the trouble with regulations that they only tell you what you are longer permitted not what you should instead think the cause the new regulations the montreal protocol which has definite cfc phase out schedule course the cause the montreal protocol was all the research done the causes the ozone depletion problem someone asked earlier about why the governments were working fast ban the ozone depleting cfc chemicals and not gasolines and other greenhouse gas producing compounds the greenhouse effect produced infrared trapping gasses like and methane and the ozone hole problem produced long lived chlorine containing molecules are not the same thing lot easier something about not using the cfc chloro fluorocarbons than stop producing and methane which are natural byproducts combustion and living animal organisms planting more trees and not destroying many existing trees would help the greenhouse gas problem but would nothing for the ozone problem fred bach operations group internet music erich triumf triumf tri university meson facility voice loc wesbrook mall ubc campus fax university british columbia vancouver canada these are opinions which should only make you read think and question they not necessarily reflect the views employer fellow workers
rec.autos	open letter nissan qideqinnl sumax seattleu edu smorris sumax seattleu edu steven morris writes hey nissan why aren you guys making any station wagons you used make wagon every platform sentra stanza maxima and now none all fact they make some but they just don sell them here sunny california wagon based sentra avenil wagon looks like infinity but actually independently designed wagon mean not based any sedans nissan had better consider sell them here after buying and really loving would like buy another nissan product for wife but prefer wagon owned minivans and don prefer them how about altima wagon sentra wagon would sounds nice but doubt they have plan coz avenil was introduced replace any sedan based wagon here even better suggestion why don you guys ahead and buy the rest fuji heavy industries subaru and put either line into the legacy wagon buy the legacy minute had nissan engine instead the horizontal that they seem sentimentally attached with all the camry accord taurus volvo and subaru wagons out there got market segment that would worthwhile can wait year two but you don have something compete the model may have elsewhere thanks steve morris internet smorris sumax seattleu edu addiction studies pgm uucp beaver uunet gtenmc dataio sumax smorris seattle university phone dept direct seattle
rec.autos	warning please read from article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about year ago the washington beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks down cars from overpass four five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting the front seat one them was struck the head one the larger rocks don recall she made but think she was comatose for month and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell happening this great country ours can see boyhood pranks peeing off bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold yes
rec.autos	warning please read article apr cbnewse att com turbo cbnewse att com gerald lindahl writes from article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about year ago the washington beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks down cars from overpass four five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly about year ago some kids tossed rock off overpass near eau claire wisconsin and killed the driver below believe was schoolteacher from minnesota jason hanson wisconsin ave marquette university milwaukee ham radio lea jason studsys mscs edu lea ary nocal usa
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam mark monninger markm bigfoot sps mot com wrote while not exactly service incident had similar experience recently when bought new truck had picked out the vehicle wanted and after little haggling agreed price wrote them check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them back that evening pick the truck when returned had wait about hour before the finance guy could get when finally got there everything went smoothly until started adding the numbers then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license about then said needed another from said had already agreed price and was their problem wasn giving them any more money the finance guy then similar thing happend year ago bought used ford bronco which has since been stolen and few weeks after paid and took delivery they sent letter telling they goofed and miscalculated the license renewal and that need send check avoid further delay the processing registration the thing had already received the pink slip from the dmv ignored received another letter and then the phone calls started coming first from the finance guy and then from the general manager both hounding for the extra money they left alone once told them already had the paperwork and pointed out the clause the contract that stated that the final price was just that final afterall they wouldn budge had told them wanted another off after the deal had been signed right told them not call again and that would not business with them the future they didn seem have problem with that this after all was used ford toyota dealership had much better experience buying new pathfinder about month ago certainly pays buy car the last sunday the month was even raining too they had done very little business that weekend and were really willing deal kept telling them would think about and they kept dropping the price got very good deal and far have been very please with the service john jdenune pandora sdsu edu
rec.autos	seeking good alfa romeo mechanic looking for recommendations for good great alfa romeo mechanic south jersey philadelphia nearby have alfa spider that needs some engine tranny steering work done the body quite good shape the car awful cold weather won start below freezing know know why drive spider there snow the ground has bosch mechanical fuel injection that sure needs adjustment any opinions are welcome what look for who call email post rec autos will summarize people want thx andy brandt unc edu
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes take the electrodes the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one each earlobe then symmetrically insert fingers each the spark plug boots cheating guys both hands must used have just couple questions about this technique first what firing order should use start with pointer finger pinky left hand right and secondly have cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions andy
rec.autos	trains have radar article apr usho hou chevron com hhtra usho hou chevron com haddock writes while taking extended easter vacation was going north somewhere between centerville and dallas and came upon train parked trestle with its locomotive sitting directly over the northbound lanes there appeared movement within the cab and out curiosity slowed get better look just passed from underneath the trestle radar detector went into full alert all lights lit and all chirps beeps and buzzes going strong thought had been nailed good but police materialized could this have been caused the train radio what travis boy travis were you lucky you went under the new texas rangers stealth patrol car good thing you slowed down newsgroups rec autos distribution world references apr usho hou chevron com from dje bmw nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger organization subject trains have radar keywords
rec.autos	honda accord brake problem honda accord just hit the magic mile mark and now all sorts things are beginning bad the latest problem experiencing with brakes they still stop the car fine but once stopped completely brake pedal will sink another inches all itself feels really strange and worried brakes will quit working one these days checked brake fluid and the reservoir was full but the fluid itself looked really dirty like dirty oil called mechanic and told need new brake master cylinder which will cost whopping was just wondering anyone out there has experienced this sort thing mechanic being honest simply need have brakes bled and new fluid put any help you could provide would appreciated please send replies directly rarely have chance read this list will post the responses there any interest thanks joni ciarlett mizar usc edu
rec.autos	cleaning eurowiper boots have the eurowiper boots white and had throw away the first pair since found way cleaning them after they looked almost black now have second pair white ones and once again they are dirty need way clean them removing them since had cut them remove them there way should just buy black ones thanks joel joel sprechman sprec acsu buffalo edu university buffalo pff ubvms buffalo edu not black white thing homosapian thing takes big man cry and even bigger man laugh that man jack handy
rec.autos	open letter nissan really station wagon with the popularity minivans the market room for station wagons squeezed out they are not comfortable sedan and don carry much the minivans this not say nobody wants the wagon anymore but the demand certainly hampered the minivan and may not economical build product for jason chen station wagon owner
rec.autos	old corvettes low insurance article fmi news rich bnr peon email eric youngblood writes article apr lehigh edu swr lehigh edu scott warren rosander writes article csux news cso uiuc edu gdhg uxa cso uiuc edu george hei writes after too many years school finally graduating and getting real job course trying make plans how spend all this extra money right now have accord good car but not real sporty was thinking selling about two years and dropping around sports car some kind after thinking about may have better idea keep the accord until drops and buy the car always wanted corvette stingray reasoning that accord corvette less than what would spend anyway basically thinking late early for around question what are good years consider for reliability looks horsepower that order believe not horsepower not main concern want fast get motorcycle and what are good prices also what would insurance look like male single might wait until get the car lower insurance would the fact that mainly drive the other car lower there some type classic car rarely driven insurance class for driving under miles per year dad has vette and its what you say classic insurance basically what that means that has restricted amount driving time which basically means cant used every day car and would probably suit your needs for limited mileage area denver you look around alittle you can get for less not much less you said your not looking fast they are really nice car just not real powerful addition restricted mileage many classic insurance carriers also require that the vehicle garaged when not use ericy eric youngblood bell northern research richardson texas peon email privs
rec.autos	sho clutch question grinding noise article ldu news rich bnr jcyuhn crchh nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn writes that not the clutch you hearing its the gearbox early shos have lot what referred gear rollover noise you can generally have one the first shos built and mine doesn make this noise
rec.autos	too fast article armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes bit hard prove point like this but can compare the was hoping for something like the chassis exhibits degrees flex when subjected forces more than units forces more than units begin manifest miles per hour not well gee wasn designed fast because uhh well gee wasn designed fast not porsche you know come with better seatbelts more supportive seats stronger passenger compartment cage better brakes stiffer suspension different tires and body design that takes advantage aero effects keep the car the ground what they come with well compared the normal taurus the sho comes with more supportive seats better brakes stiffer suspension different tires and body design that takes advantage aero effects keep the car the ground least think that what all that boy racer plastic for you kidding yourself you think any car the road has passenger compartment made withstand mph impacts compare either the porsche and you tell which was designed right only dollar cars should driven fast they drive goddamn rabbits mph europe pal and reckon taurus least capable rabbit certainly haven convinced course not speeding bad speeding illegal will not speed love big brother you had your mind made already interesting that lots the roads out west had speed limits until
rec.autos	too fast article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes there may case where speed limit sign not necessary but take them away entirely yeah you right doing away with speed limits would just mean huge tax increases municipalities tried make for the revenue they used gouge from passing motorists
rec.autos	too fast article shaman tek com andrew frip tek com writes cocaine what your point that neither harmful when used carefully
rec.autos	too fast wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes compare either the porsche and you tell which was designed right only dollar cars should driven fast they drive goddamn rabbits mph europe pal and reckon taurus least capable rabbit whole point was not say that the cars couldn that fast but that they shouldn that fast family sedan designed operable mph doesn suddenly become operable mph because you added some plastic aero effects slightly wider tires and much larger engine that what the sho slightly modified family sedan with powerful engine they didn even bother improving the brakes the mustang essentially the same deal the sho big power plant stuck mid size sedan with almost other modifications have real life experience with the mustang handles like brick except when you invoking oversteer course something personally avoid doing the highway and stopping power inadequate even from mph lots accelleration but the rest the car not par picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed mind didn have the could have been the much cheaper one several mercedes audi models all these cars are fairly expensive but are the parts that make them drivable high speed this should elementary there are few things keep mind about europe since you brought autobahn knowledge admittedly second hand but believe the following true drivers are much better disciplined europe than they are here the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most highways not all europe the autobahn most places europe have speed limits that aren out line with what used have the friends weren lying they typically not much higher than strongly suspect you won find lot rabbit owners doing mph nearly the autobahn but could wrong some people have respect for their own lives you certainly haven convinced course not speeding bad speeding illegal will not speed love big brother you had your mind made already you think you sure don pay attention postings jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	cherokee explorer jcksnste acf nyu edu writes all brand new the group please flames honest opinions jeep cherokee country not sport ford explorer stepfather who ponders every major decision four months after making looking one the two also please comment the importance any between and live princeton and will barely ever take off road learned with this last winter that could really use something with little more confidence inches snow than olds cutlass eighty eight all replies appreciated pondering this for while already decided cyl over don worry about that one thanks steve own new ford explorer really love drove the jeep and besides the power just didn see spending the money for the jeep was great but just love the explorer have and got through the blizzard just fine drove about miles the worst part storm and never faulterd own opinion doug jcksnste acf nyu edu
rec.autos	ranger opinions your buying compact pickup yourself favor and wait few months for the gmc sonoma magazines are saying day and night over the current truck georgeous solid and fast vortec should whip the ranger every area too accept maybe payload and always pick gmc over chevy gmc are always much better looking man miss the comanche marty and matt owings ninja type rider dudes feeling that all wanna know and obsession some keep the world you rearview mirror while you try run down the sun wheels rhestless heart
rec.autos	workmanship just visited the auto show and saw two cars the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid really nice must say very attractive styling lots features and room competitive price unfortunately the workmanship quite disappointing both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band goes just pressing the groove against the tongue the door frame surely would come off easily not sure how many this kind pooring engineering assembly problems that will show later may still consider buying but only when establishes good track record jason chen
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr porthos bellcore com dje bmw nosubdomain nodomain don eilenberger writes article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc yiklam unixg ubc yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how take out the bolt under the engine compartment should turn clockwise counter tried any kind lubricants etc but still failed you think can use electric drill change suitable bit turn out can succeed can tighten not too tight safe without oil leak thank you very much advance winson would suggest you take the car the nearest chevron dealer with your own oil and filter ask for oil change will cost less than watch him her just from watching someone job you will able learn and remember the sequence and right when you yourself the next time besides when she loosens the drain nut the next time around will easier for you stuck use impact wrench not too much force though use new washer each time you put the nut back ssave ole cdac com
rec.autos	pontiac mail car clubs interested know there any pontiac mail car clubs out there has anyone started one anybody thinking about starting one thanks for any info you can give maloney badlands nodak edu
rec.autos	ultimate awd vehicles article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes article huinnjrv uwm edu qazi csd csd uwm edu writes subarus don sell that well although the percentage subes purchased with awd probably relatively high all subarus sold are awd audi backing down the number models offers with awd before one could purchase with awd but now reserved strictly for the top line model the same goes for the the has been eliminated from the lineup but the still available quattro version though hardly cheap they are still true their pledge making option their entire line cars now only they will bring the wagon eliot before the became the was called the turbo quattro this model did come wagon very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass
rec.autos	warning please read sorry for the auto content but that why low abiding citizens should have the power protect themselves and their property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous you have the power steve you can why don you why don you shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take from those kids are mean
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen amelio writes bmoss grinch sim com brent woody moss writes you could take screw driver and hammer and start punching holes various locations and when some black slippery stuff starts pouring out then you would know that the oil drain plug nearby within foot two anyway close the holes with toilet paper before refileing with oil though you have refill the engine with oil wow wonder can get engine last more than first oil change don forget punch holes the radiator too will spray nice refreshing water the engine and keep nice cool steve gee you really make confused what radiator where located what does look like will release any radiation since sounds like radia tion genera tor when you punch holes hanguyen
rec.autos	instead saturn what one thing that everyone forgetting this argument over the pricing the the japanese cars the saturns dicker sticker this makes the saturn price low comparison the inflated base prices the japanese competition paper but reality one could dicker several hundred dollars off the price the japanese cars admittedly though here canada least the the same price class the civic not the steve hui
rec.autos	instead saturn what for those that are interested got fully optioned air abs sunroof september for sacramento was one the sold few the dealers had any local dealer had abs equipped went straight the fleet manager the dealership liked told him what wanted made him aware that knew what his price should called back with exactly what wanted from dealer away took delivery the next day
rec.autos	workmanship article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes just visited the auto show and saw two cars the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid really nice must say very attractive styling lots features and room competitive price unfortunately the workmanship quite disappointing both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band goes just pressing the groove against the tongue the door frame surely would come off easily lack build quality was the thing notced the first saw months back the panel gaps were large and non uniform between the cars saw the kind thing you expect and accept mustang but not from chrysler savior drove one the low end cars and thought was more than adequate prefer taurus from brief experience craig not sure how many this kind pooring engineering assembly problems that will show later may still consider buying but only when establishes good track record jason chen
rec.autos	too fast article bob cos bob cos com bob blackshaw writes apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article umcc umcc umich edu mhartman umcc umcc umich edu mark hartman writes driving straight line fine you very soon become aclimated only rush when there are corners that you don think you can make clear autobahn nothing the people and all judges would label you insane and difficult persuade people otherwise sure but the surface condition most good autobahns far better the quality autobahns something myth the road surface isn much different typical freeway they are better terms lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc have problem driving most freeways save for the backroads which really are more likely dangerous than most the roads here dip the asphalt that you test your shocks will kill you don get wrong love would have quite severe don recall any freeway without road damage warnings that would regard unsafe any decent well damped car note that definition decent well damped would exclude most typical american sedans drive quickly and they say probe will but that more than ever tried cause there isn decent enough piece road hereabouts don know where you live but would much more worried about cops other traffic etc than the road surface just isn that fast that dangerous you have probe problem the cyl models have driven would likely unpredictable higher speeds craig craig mark hartman mhartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo cleveland freenet edu naked the school sleepyhead bob
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article jnk jkt news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes wasn the original intent the reverse lights for the driver could see where was backing although reverse lights the sides reverse lights are warn others that you are backing they aren bright enough typically see without the brake and tail lights are useful for telling whether cars are backing out perpendicular the path the car don think warnings were their original intents since they are colored white well red and orange were already taken maybe white defines the direction that the car moving you really want able see behind you get some fog lamps for the back the car these work very well and are good way get rid tailgaters you get that rush testosterone craig chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick judge quick anger slow understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand hand
rec.autos	warning please read deleted your name because don want sound accusative remark this two sided problem unfortunately our culture has been deteriorating over time the breeding these low life getting worse our justice system best extremely weak handle these problems that why low abiding citizens should have the power protect themselves and their property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent camaro pride and joy got stolen right out driveway few years back the persons that did that were eventually caught lucky for but not before having trashed the car another occasion way from texas florida had stopped small motel for the night small town somewhere florida about youths were disturbing car setting off the alarm and challenging come out when and another tenant walked out with magnum and automatic respectively they vanished needless say immediately packed and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can deadly not going argue the issue carrying weapons but would ask you you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think worse things the world glad you got out there before they did anything give you reason fire your gun can all ask what happening society these days but don forget ask another important question too what effort expending make any different than just thoughts joe karolchik
rec.autos	braindead drivers who don look ahead apr ctp com bpita ctp com bob pitas writes article zdem hgo zdem hgo hou amoco com donna martz writes stuff deleted excuse but understood what smith meant and have often observed when traffic blocked solid that few people yeild the moron who impatiently riding bumpers the slug the front the pack will miraculously wake change lanes and viola more jam granted the situation here does not apply rush hour crowded city but have observed this situation regularly your average interstate six eight sets cars side side bunched pack with open freeway fore and aft far you can see the people who refuse yeild point honor are just annoying the slug the front agree that traffic all blocked and you want pass you might not feel like moving over for someone behind you because you don want give them that one car length when they should just wait like you are but you one those people that just sit behind the person and doesn flash them with the high beams pull left and flash them ride their bumper otherwise tell them that you fact want and you not just drafting them then get the hell out the way someone who will especially hate when you flash someone the back line and they don pass after flashed lights the chap front and doesn pass and few any what next major highways more lanes each direction keeping the extreme right blocks folks who are entering also someone posted this thread here the area have few left lane exits sounds like you wait until the last minute get the left lane you won cause these yoyos won make room have particularly bad strech here merryland just over the cabin john bridge there are two very long entry ramps which all the hurry yahoos dive into cause they want get ahead when get the point where these ramps merge all hell breaks lose the result that traffic which was moving the side the bridge stalls other side these dingbats had stayed lane allowed the folks coming the two ramps merge would still doing instead start stop for miles dave barry idea laser equipped car would real useful here bob you drive the beltway and want merge look for brown probe with silver haired driver then use your signals don read minds but try courteous they told courtesy was contagious but guess the folks around here have had their shots
rec.autos	warning please read article jgc ajj dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys writes know that this isn the group for but since you brought does anyone have any idea why they haven bombed the waco cult perhaps because witnesses who have left the compound have all testified that the batf shot first they they did not identify themselves before tossing concussion grenades not that anyone inside could have heard such identification after being near concussion grenade and the announcement from the batf that they have sealed the warrant under which they were operating which was search warrant the way not arrest warrant short perhaps because the batf wildly out control and perhaps calmer heads have realized that bombing compound full woman and children will not improve their position there real chance that koresh will able prove self defense court that will leave what four officers dead and one blame but the batf followups directed alt activism where the discussion has raged nearly long the seige and which shows every sign not giving nearly soon larry smith smith ctron com don speak for cabletron need you ask liberty not the freedom whatever want the freedom whatever are able
rec.autos	electronic odometers was used bmw question article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel lovall writes shouldn that hard you know much about digital electronics the counter made with standard ttl chips all you should need find the chip used for counting figure out what mileage you want put and preset but wiring the preset pins directly low high you also have know what the conventions are for low and high might little more involved than this but shouldn beyond someone with bsee eet all the display does convert what the counter chips say into digits using translation table stored rom nobody using discrete these functions anymore all doubt any the motor electronics had any start with much less ttl can almost guarantee that fruitless attempt figure out how bmw does without breaking anything and invalidating any warranty the car you lucky you still able start the car
rec.autos	warning please read tobias convex com allen tobias writes article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi writes this happened about year ago the washington beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks down cars from overpass four five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting the front seat one them was struck the head one the larger rocks don recall she made but think she was comatose for month and doctors weren holding out hope that she live the girl actually and she recovered well enough home don know she has any permanent damage though just case anybody was concerned what the hell happening this great country ours can see boyhood pranks peeing off bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold people start forcing others take responsibility for their actions things like this wouldn happen untill stop blaming outside causes and start blaming the criminals will continue let things like this happen chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick judge quick anger slow understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand hand
rec.autos	viper last night had dream that dad bought viper took out for test drive without his knowledge and had push all the way home just avoid ticket wierd dream wonder what means roy
rec.autos	warning please read article neilson apr seoul mpr neilson seoul mpr robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that why low abiding citizens should have the power protect themselves and their property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous you have the power steve you can why don you why don you shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take from those kids are mean stong self defense advocate you statement does littel but irk course shooting someone because they throw rock your car out the question but what they disabled your car with their rock and then wanted come kill rape rob beat otherwise harm you your wife kids think you would like the power defend yourself this situation wouldn you that you value the lives such rock throwers more than your own those your family don think couldn happen you from the sounds here has happened few people please not misunderstand the only justification for using deadly force someone that you don will mean your own death grave bodily harm far far away from supporting vilante justice anything like that and you mean funny please add the appropriate followups talk politics guns please getting bit off track here steve syck syck miller uwm edu
rec.autos	warning please read and san francisco recently some our finest examples humanity poured oil over road that vehicles going uphill would suddnely become immobile and then they would walk right the vehicles and make their demands known mark barnes system engineer insert standard disclaimers here sunsoft corporate technical escalations speak for myself individual menlo park usa not for the company for which work barnesm vavau corp sun com
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon article apr lehigh edu amh lehigh edu alois himsl writes yes have the same questions what makes upset that costs are skyrocketing and fact can bought anymore area also this yet another way mechanics and dealers can rip off customers also was reading that the new refrigerant not compatible with the system and that would cost upto retrofit car with the old system although important consider the environment think the sudden ban slap the face for the consumer why that the consumer should have pay for the retrofit the auto companies should have seen this coming also why that the governments the world were quick banning freon use and yet slow banning gasoline opinion gasoline just hazardous anything else why can they start proposing bans this and switch natural gas electric the technology there hopefully some chemist will come with another alternative coolant that will compatible with the old system several chemists already have come with several substitutes for you don hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that the people who stand rake that per retrofit per automobile have mounted organized campaign squash those substitutes out existence not ban them altogether very shaky technical grounds best outright lies worst does this piss you off yes write letter your congressman your senator the president the epa and the dot and complain later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.autos	carb cleaners they work performance carb rebuild article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes article fyt jby cpsc ucalgary schaffer cpsc ucalgary doug schaffer writes how hard carb rebuild for moderately experienced backyard mechanic done clutch and miscellaneous little engine fixes the hardest part usually getting the darned thing off the intake manifold rebuilding carb fun you into things with lots little parts used rebuild them for all friends cars high school doesn take phd buy carb rebuilding kit from auto supply store buy gallon the best carb cleaning solvent you can find they still make tyme rule thumb buy the one with the scariest warning labels put into metal bucket make yourself dipping can punching holes the bottom coffee can and attaching wire handle the carb cleaner doesn strip the paint right off the coffee can you not using the right stuff use the can soak the little stuff and just hang the big parts from coat hanger wash them off with garden hose wipe off excess water with paper towels and air dry then remember where all the little parts follow the rebuild kit instructions concerning float height choke tension etc bolt back the engine and admire the super clean carb the filthy engine heed this man warnings you get carb cleaner this strong your hands your hands will eaten away not pretty hence the dipping can method later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.autos	changing oil self why crawl under the car all have machine got for boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube does excellent job and moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than using the drain plug think paid marine the oil goes into steel gal can wait until cools and decant into your favorite device use soft drink bottles easy take them down the local oil recycle center forza
rec.autos	electronic odometers was used bmw question article dirac physics purdue edu lovall bohr physics purdue edu daniel lovall writes article conradie firga sun conradie firga sun gerrit conradie writes however were design bmw electronics will use counter count the number times the car passed million miles whatever and store the car computer memory this could read when doing diagnostics test ditto for the date the odometer easy this don know why manafucturers don don they prevent illegal odometer tampering but previous writer said will any case take aeons reset odometer mechanic electronic simulating driving car will easier reprogram how don know shouldn that hard you know much about digital electronics the counter made with standard ttl chips all you should need find the chip used for counting figure out what mileage you want put and preset but wiring the preset pins directly low high you also have know what the conventions are for low and high might little more involved than this but shouldn beyond someone with bsee eet all the display does convert what the counter chips say into digits using translation table stored rom selah dan but those chips are probably inside custom chip make smaller and use less power and the preset data pins are not going available would probably not ttl but might cmos wider operating voltage range not that the tecnology would make much difference plus the custom chip would probably potted encapsulated with epoxy good luck garyl any shark that gets feet long with big teeth can considered dangerous shark bowl
rec.autos	jeep wrangler opini article qht einnjdf col col com tvervaek col com tom vervaeke writes have had two wranglers and still have the second right now wrangler base model with the big engine hard top power steering air conditioning runs like top has about has never been the shop can change own oil nice tall vehicle can lube myself fittings occasionally take jiffy lube check the differentials and the oil change there previous wrangler had nary problem either here colorado there more jeeps than bmw mercedes volvos and the like together fact jeep has been called the colorado car for while they hold their value well and are very easy resell mine cost right around new course didn blow money islander sahara renegade which have wrangler sahara and paid new including the rebate are just wranglers with fancy inside stuff after driving for years that fancy stuff pretty nice the cars are primitive ride like dump truck etc but you live area that gets around snow per winter you have one too they anywhere with winch and are easy get parts for the like wrangler but when doing some serious off roading can keep with because ground clearance and limited suspension travel have winch and would like get arb air locker the future engine puts out and gets around mpg not bad love the just experience sure there are bad ones out there but that goes for any make and model don graham
rec.autos	too fast article qkon armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes stuff about autobahn and safety sho speed deleted the mustang essentially the same deal the sho big power the mustang much worse case design irresponsibility than the sho plant stuck mid size sedan with almost other modifications have real life experience with the mustang handles like brick except when you invoking oversteer course something its hard predicatbaly drift stock mustang because the suspension personally avoid doing the highway and stopping power inadequate even from mph lots accelleration but the rest the car not par yes when think mustang think school bus motor mind the mustang should fitted with speed limiter just isn safe check out your local junkyard mustangs outnumber other cars proportion way excess sales junkyards find astonishing the somesuchlike has not jumped the mustang for poor brakes relation power ford should least standardize the svo rear brakes for all picked the porsche example because they are designed with speed mind didn have the could have been the much cheaper one several mercedes audi models all these cars are fairly expensive but are the parts that make them drivable high speed this should elementary there are few things keep mind about europe since you brought autobahn knowledge admittedly second hand but believe the following true drivers are much better disciplined europe than they are here true northern europe latin countries are something else the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than kindof true remember they were build adolf the they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most highways yes not all europe the autobahn most places europe have autobahn the german word for freeway other countries have different names for loose equivalents autostrada autoroute motorway etc speed limits that aren out line with what used have the friends weren lying they typically not much higher than europe did seem the brink kmh limit hasn passed far know typical speeds western europe are much higher than the law enforcement negligible experience comapred the there revenue enhancement motivation the things you really notice are the higher speed differentials and the more professional attitude driving you just never see two cars running parallel mph oblivious all around them strongly suspect you won find lot rabbit owners doing mph nearly the autobahn but could wrong some people you wrong gti this fast just kind noisy not the ideal autobahn car lot times you see cars being driven with the drivers foot the floor how know when you not making any ground the identical car front you have respect for their own lives something happens you dead but the same goes for much over driving high speed forces you concentrate feel much safer driving the autobahn than typical traffic because most people seem awake never seen any driver reading book autobahn see all too often the craig just doesn seem fast after minutes aclimation everybody drives that fast big deal craig you certainly haven convinced course not speeding bad speeding illegal will not speed love big brother you had your mind made already you think you sure don pay attention postings jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	instead saturn what ifn spo andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu jason roth writes had article cars the ilk and they liked the civic the escort and the best all and the was way down the list except for braking just looked that article first all this summary inaccurate cars the was right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift has been pointed out was semi silly comparison the saturn was least cheaper than the and escort admittedly negligible but issue and less than the honda the stated goal was base under the honda was over while the the same price was excluded other words they let the best honda play but not the best saturn note that the saturn did beat the dont know about the car comparison but far the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the and escort and maybe even the honda will lesser than that the saturn you talking about all price comparisons seen are based msrp and course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will way below sticker srihari
rec.autos	warning please read larose austin utk edu brian larose writes this just warning everybody the net watch out for folks standing next the road overpasses they can cause serious harm you and your car just cliff notes version story follows last night was travelling the interstate here knoxville was taking offramp exit another interstate and wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side truck slowed down but after looking back see the vandals standing there drove the police station she did get good look the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size cinderblock but never saw him are very lucky the truck sits high the road would have hit her window would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but all likelyhood gone very good driver knock wood but was night time and never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was hit the car have stop check out the damage and then jump and take the truck please aware folks and for your own good please don stop peace brian larose larose utk edu essary knoxville long the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding the front toyota pickup heading south interstate north seattle someone threw rock overpass and hit our windshield not accident sure was impossible get the overpass quickly see who did figured was kids reported and left couple years ago happend again and killed guy company was his mid fourties and left behind wife and children turned out there was reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did they put cover over the overpass what else could they don think over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue
rec.autos	subaru svx good deal netters friend seriously thinking getting the subaru svx there local dealer here seattle selling them for with touring package that off from msrp thinks very good deal and think too since knows have access the net would like get anyone opinion about this car especially the area reliability and maintenanability please send mail friend doesn have access the net opinion about this car you get lot for auto everything tranny climate control windows locks folddow rear seet full wheel drive fast top spped heavy thanks advacne tom locke work boeing computer services mail toml voodoo boeing com box uunet bcstec voodoo toml seattle
rec.autos	open letter nissan really station wagon this week autoweek talks about how wagons are getting back vogue wouldn mind audi wagon great stealth value but you never catch dead minivan eliot
rec.autos	warning please read article qke spool edu jason studsys mscs edu jason hanson writes from article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik velapoldi this happened about year ago the washington beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks down cars from overpass four five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly about year ago some kids tossed rock off overpass near eau claire wisconsin and killed the driver below believe was schoolteacher from minnesota here houston couple years ago young pregnant woman was killed similar manner
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam article apr newsgate sps mot com rapw email sps mot com writes their problem wasn giving them any more money the finance guy then brought the manager duty who proceeded give hard time reminded him that was the customer and didn think should treated like that and that didn back off could forget the whole deal made some smart remark told him where could stick snatched back check and left needless say they were not pleased the turn events that nothing when friend mine went shopping for small sedan few years ago she brought along token male the salespeople wouldn give her the bimbo treatment her first choice was mazda and second choice was nissan sentra went mazda dealership and described what wanted started negotiating the price and the salesdroid kept playing the let run this price the sales manager after playing the good salesman bad salesman game finally told him that didn have the authority negotiate price perhaps should speaking directly someone who did brought the sales manager who proceeded dick around with every trick the book read remar sutton don get taken every time for list finally after playing few more rounds you have work with this price also known each time you come thousand dollars come down ten the salesmanager gave signal his two sales cronies stood and said well can come down any more guess can help you and they trouped out the room leaving sitting the salesman office all ourselves hmm read that sleazy salesmen sometimes bug their own offices they can leave and listen couples discussing the sales offer and mentioned this aloud friend while were sitting there wondering why they would leave the office instead showing the door for lack anything better picked the phone the desk and called another mazda dealership asked for salesman and began discussing what kind price they would consider few sentences into the conversation salesmanager broke into the line and began telling how rude thought was that would call another dealership from his phone said that since announced that our business was over shouldn care and every time tried talk the other sales guy the sales manager would drown out our voices with his own how did know that was using the phone anyway finally hung and headed out the showroom sales manager and cronies come out little unmarked room and begins berate again say that won bother him anymore going next door the nissan dealership then comes the part wish could have videotaped out the front door the sales manager shouts across the entire showroom customers and all ahead you deserve buy nissan friend bought sentra just the guilty won unpunished mention that the sales manager name was gary tusone from his manner his refusal come down reasonable price and his anger the end guess that had bet our original salesman who was young novice that able get least dollars out and was steamed that wouldn fall for his slimy tricks
rec.autos	workmanship was following example the the other day and noticed the fit between the tunk lid and the rear bumper the gap was quite small the left side but much larger the right blech mark
rec.autos	too fast apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article umcc umcc umich edu mhartman umcc umcc umich edu mark hartman writes don know why you are complaining about alot have cars that can easily top that most that are built also and can handle the speed why complain and just join the fast fun can ask have any you been the speed its rush driving straight line fine you very soon become aclimated only rush when there are corners that you don think you can make clear autobahn nothing the people and all judges would label you insane and difficult persuade people otherwise sure but the surface condition most good autobahns far better than most the roads here dip the asphalt that you test your shocks will kill you don get wrong love drive quickly and they say probe will but that more than ever tried cause there isn decent enough piece road hereabouts craig mark hartman mhartman umcc umcc umich edu kalamazoo cleveland freenet edu naked the school sleepyhead bob
rec.autos	old license plates wanted and roomate are going redecorate the living room and thought would cool idea have license plate from every state the and then from whereever else could find like canada mexixo even some european ones anyone has any ideas knows someone that could help out please let know the more recent the better but anything would nice either that you have old plate hanging around hint hint kev wanderer camelot bradley edu kevin murphy west main street peoria
rec.autos	mgbs and the real world article apr hasler ascom kevinh hasler ascom writes yeah had mini and even before did anything could leave mgb standing anywhere except perhaps long straight motorway run people who bought mgb bought them because they were open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for old fashioned traditional brit sportscar not because they were great anything pretty much like the people who buy the mazda miata today small fun and you can fool yourself and lot other people that you have the performance many far superior and much more expensive performnace cars derek tearne derek nezsdc icl fujitsu new zealand some the more aware dinosaurs were worried about the environmental consequences accident with the new iridium enriched fusion reactor goes off only the cockroaches and mammals will survive they said
rec.autos	dumbest driver action news cso uiuc edu mwbg uxa cso uiuc edu mark wayne blunier writes jimf centerline com jim frost writes wish had the figures with back but recall statistics showing that women tended have more accidents than men but the damage was generally quite minor men had fewer but far more expensive accidents the rate total vehicle destruction was significantly higher for men than women particularly the younger male age groups imho social considerations are probably the strongest influence here possibly more than any difference between the sexes social influences often affect the type car that bought and the situations the car used and the type car and driving situations have major effect accident risk thus society expects you buy mustang and race the street you more likely and our society expects that males more than females agree with some your social influences such driving conditions but lets get real here guys don drag race becuase there expected too becuase its fun and find out whose car faster guys drive different than women becuase there men when driver driving unusually can usually figure out male female driver without looking the driver social influences may give person more reason buy vehicle that has certain amount character which she would like associated with you change your driving habits when one around sheesh don know what kind women they have where you guys live but there are some ladies here who will blow your doors off least they will try but just can let the youngsters get too uppity with old folks mark jim frost jimf centerline com bob
rec.autos	workmanship article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes just visited the auto show and saw two cars the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid competitive price unfortunately the workmanship quite disappointing both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band goes just pressing through single data point you can draw any line you want bart childs professor texas dept computer science both pastor late model corolla and father stanza have demonstrated the falling door seals problem daryl biberdorf gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
rec.autos	honda civic like converse with anyone who has purchased honda civic about their experience new the car buying game and would like know what price can expect pay for sedan after bargaining thanks advance ellen
rec.autos	heard these south bay shops need bring corrado for body work got hit was wondering anyone has heard any these south bay body shops akins collision center santa clara reed auto west collision san jose los gatos acura royal auto body sunnyvale thanks
rec.autos	changing oil self rist another dealer service scam article pbe news ysu edu yfn ysu edu john daker writes was worried about someone stealing oil once also finally decided just have drain plug welded shut works great figure that when add three four quarts when the oil light comes every month that just good better than the old wives tale changing the oil and filter every miles works for must say did the same thing drain plug for the same reasons was wondering how you filled your crankcase though welded hood shut also out fear that somebody might steal air filter come silly all you have cut hole your hood and put tube there you can get the oil fill hole what you think all those big air intake things are for those hot rod cars they just for looks only little does anyone know they provide access the oil fill hole well over where live have problems with vandals stealing people wheels those locking nuts didn stop them safe and sure welded the lug nuts wheels together works serious haven had wheels stolen yet
rec.autos	warning please read article innfl utk edu larose austin utk edu brian larose writes this just warning everybody the net watch out for folks standing next the road overpasses they can cause serious harm you and your car just cliff notes version story follows last night was travelling the interstate here knoxville was taking offramp exit another interstate and wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side truck slowed down but after looking back see the vandals standing there drove the police station she did get good look the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size cinderblock but never saw him are very lucky the truck sits high the road would have hit her window would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but all likelyhood gone stuff deleted sorry report that southern california was sick sport for while drop concrete blocks from the overpasses onto the freeway several persons were killed when said blocks came through their windshields many overpass bridges are now fenced and they have made illegal loiter such bridges that would stop such people yet many bridges are not fenced always look bridge while still have time take evasive action even though this sport has not reached here fresno greg lewis csufresno edu photojournalism sequence department journalism csu fresno fresno
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article hhgm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes article innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes big aftermarket business almost cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes how much people are willing pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk side both sides some tacky luxury cars some aren fake you talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car sport one personally would love have bird with continental kit and the supercharged that one the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto mount the spare the rear the car but was hardly the first car sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common early automobiles both and foreign ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say better but say ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam while not exactly service incident had similar experience recently when bought new truck had picked out the vehicle wanted and after little haggling agreed price wrote them check for the down payment plus tax and license and told them back that evening pick the truck when returned had wait about hour before the finance guy could get when finally got there everything went smoothly until started adding the numbers then discovered that they had miscalculated the tax license about this seems popular scam with dealers last month brother bought new audi series quatro from local dealer they came back with the final price tax and all and added for himself there happened extra tagged under the tax part pointed out their error and asked them think their addition they came back with the right price the next time
rec.autos	how cizeta doing article crh regent technik muenchen crh regent technik muenchen dbp christian huebner writes can remember reading track competition some car magazine which featured the testarossa the diablo and the the result was about the same would have expected the cizeta was not only the slowest the three but also dropped out halfway during test laps because smoking brakes for sportscar showed ridiculous performance find this hard believe weights about the same the red head but has hell lot more horse power perhaps due pre production glitches well still got the most imposing styling among all the sports cars have seen bye chris crh regent technik muenchen ferrari best sportscar ever built personally don like cars that rely turbo power guess everyone has their favorite car
rec.autos	new break pads exhausts after maxima maybe someone can help here looking buy this nissan maxima gxe for cdn right now the car has about miles typical mileage for cars seem about about the seller just informed that when brought the car for certification was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had replaced meet the legal standards said will replace the components before selling the car being copmletely ignorant the technical stuff cars don know what this could mean about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items this indication that the car was abused would other things break down have replaced soon the seller told that used the car the highway lot but don know how verify this seen the paint chipped away tiny dots the front edge the hood though although the maxima excellent car and the car very clean and well kept currently out warranty similarly priced accord with will have years worth warranty left and don want worry about paying for any repair bills but also need car for people when will the new maxima come out the way would very much appreciate your input this please reply mail preferred post this newsgroup thanks ryan ryan kim university toronto eecg computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu not weave between traffic cones road works from the new british highway code toronto star april
rec.autos	instead saturn what srihari cirrus com srihari shoroff writes ifn spo andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu jason roth writes had article cars the ilk and they liked the civic the escort and the best all and the was way down the list except for braking just looked that article first all this summary inaccurate cars the was right behind these mentioned and the suzuki swift has been pointed out was semi silly comparison the saturn was least cheaper than the and escort admittedly negligible but issue and less than the honda the stated goal was base under the honda was over while the the same price was excluded other words they let the best honda play but not the best saturn note that the saturn did beat the dont know about the car comparison but far the price goes rest assured that the street prices for the and escort and maybe even the honda will lesser than that the saturn you talking about all price comparisons seen are based msrp and course the saturn dealer will sell the car for sticker price whereas the others will way below sticker srihari hate rehash old thread but would someone kindly quote prices that dealer quotes for civic and escort also assuming that the was the ahead and look that too someone has one those yearly buyers guides that give low quote price please quote them too then find the the base price thanks chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick judge quick anger slow understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand hand
rec.autos	workmanship article inn tamsun tamu edu dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes article apr walter bellcore com jchen ctt bellcore com writes just visited the auto show and saw two cars the floor eagle vision and dodge intrepid competitive price unfortunately the workmanship quite disappointing both cars the rubber seals around the window and door fell off turns out the seals are just big grooved rubber band goes just pressing through single data point you can draw any line you want bart childs professor texas dept computer science wrong got two points which were the sample space the show floor the previous quote guess may drow determinstic line both pastor late model corolla and father stanza have demonstrated the falling door seals problem unfair may seem the difference between chrysler and toyota that chrysler needs prove that can build quality cars toyota can afford make few small mistakes without hurting the image after all door seal failing year old stanza not comparable the same problem brand new intreprid jason chen
rec.autos	open letter nissan really station wagon article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes this week autoweek talks about how wagons are getting back vogue wouldn mind audi wagon great stealth value but you never catch dead minivan even minivan based viper running gear teddy think the audi gets liter next year
rec.autos	trains busses have radar article apr bronco fnal gov colombo bronco fnal gov rick open vms ever colombo writes don know about trains but saw sign the back greyhound bus that warns you that your radar detector may set off doesn explain why but does set off radar detector because greyhound has apparently gotten around installing their radar collision prevention system they use radar monitor how close other vehicles are and how fast their relative speeds are and signals warning the driver they coming something too fast are getting too close this all remember from the news reports few months back the time they were only talking about the possibility installing the system they didn mention how worked bumper bumper traffic how discriminated between camaro approaching mph and olde bridge support the median being approached mph curve recall something about progressive stages warnings from flashing lights audible warnings goes from red too close light hysterically screaming all going die james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	mgbs and the real world derek nezsdc icl derek tearne writes people who bought mgb bought them because they were open topped sportscar and embodied what people thought they should for old fashioned traditional brit sportscar not because they were great anything pretty much like the people who buy the mazda miata today small fun and you can fool yourself and lot other people that you have the performance many far superior and much more expensive performnace cars have been for fairly hard run what they lack power they surely make for handling great for back streets with heaps corners they are fairly light car with low center gravity and quite free revving dohc engine fun car have you driven turbo converted now they are starting perform often thought mazda rotary would well the too anyone done regards scott scott fisher scott psy uwa aus perth local department psychology university western australia perth nedlands perth joy jaguar with flat battery blown oil seal and unsympathetic wife outside small remote town cold wet winters morning
rec.autos	warning please read article apr icf hrb com jek icf hrb com joe karolchik writes deleted your name because don want sound accusative remark another occasion way from texas florida had stopped small motel for the night small town somewhere florida about youths were disturbing car setting off the alarm and challenging come out when and another tenant walked out with magnum and automatic respectively they vanished needless say immediately packed and left watch out for car jacking and staged accidents they can deadly not going argue the issue carrying weapons but would ask you you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think worse things the world glad you got out there before they did anything give you reason fire your gun hear someone screwing with car setting off the alarm and taunting come out you can damn sure that colt delta elite will also coming with not the screwing with the car that get them shot the potential physical danger they taunting like that very possible that they also intend rob and other physically harmful things they just screwing around harm done they bent mayhem they will receive the cure for their lead deficiency injection fps there telling what today violent criminals will death may the most pleasant outcome james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	new break pads exhausts after maxima article apr jarvis csri toronto edu rkim eecg toronto edu ryan kim writes maybe someone can help here looking buy this nissan maxima gxe for cdn right now its automatic don know spec cdn spec for maximas the car has about miles typical mileage for cars seem about about the seller just informed that when brought the car for certification was told that the front break pads and the exhausts had replaced meet the legal standards said will replace the components before selling the car being copmletely ignorant the technical stuff cars don know what this could mean about the time typical for replacing the above mentioned items this indication that the car was abused the first set brake pads front then this fine car eats set every miles the fact that replacing the muffler too also would other things break down have replaced soon the mileage fairly low but typical fwd stuff joints check the maintenance records with the manufacturers requirements for valve adjustments timing belt changes and the mile service often expensive make sure has done everything the seller told that used the car the highway lot but don know how verify this seen the paint chipped away tiny dots the front edge the hood though well this one the commonly cited methods for identifying car with highway miles might check the gas pedal wear too ask him how many sets tires has been through highway car might have squeezed sets hard driven car sets although the maxima excellent car and the car very clean and well kept currently out warranty similarly priced accord with will have years worth warranty left and don want worry about paying for any repair bills well the maxima should pretty reliable but its out warranty you should get checked out someone knowledgeable first stuff for japanese cars can expensive but also need car for people when will the new maxima come out the way model year believe would very much appreciate your input this please reply mail preferred post this newsgroup craig thanks ryan ryan kim university toronto eecg computer graphics rkim eecg toronto edu not weave between traffic cones road works from the new british highway code toronto star april
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article jnk jkt news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes wasn the original intent the reverse lights for the driver could see where was backing although reverse lights the sides reverse lights are warn others that you are backing they aren bright enough typically see without the brake and tail lights don know where you live but couldn get out driveway night without reverse lights someone said out the country you notice neat little things like stars and the difference between day and night night around house which amongst forest rather tall oaks dark except for nights with full moons reverse lights illuminate path very well when backing greatly prefer cars with them cars without operational reverse lights james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	how cizeta doing sbw sdcc ucsd edu sbw writes does anyone know what happpened the venerable has claudio done any enhancement are there any pictures this beast can ftp down somewhere thanks better seen any model this beauty autoweek had article about the car within the past six weeks was the issue with the diablo awd the cover naturally don remember the date the issue offhand but can check anyone interested aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	bmw series for from article eabu dialin slip nts uci edu eabu orion oac uci edu alvin there going bmw could isn the liter six supposed enlarged liters the not too distant future aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	instead saturn what from article qkkl innbvo col col com theckel col com tim heckel for those that are interested got fully optioned air abs sunroof september for sacramento was one the sold few the dealers had any local dealer had abs equipped went straight the fleet manager the dealership liked told him what wanted made him aware that knew what his price should called back with exactly what wanted from dealer away took delivery the next day when was selling nissans last summer sold early august when its supply was getting quite scarce the car was black with abs value option pkg and power moonroof sold for plus tax naturally manager didn really care sell one the most desirable for virtually profit the best knowledge aamir qazi aamir qazi qazi csd csd uwm edu why should care rather watch drying paint
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time reverse lights are warn others that you are backing they aren bright enough typically see without the brake and tail lights craig perhaps instead this silly argument about what backup lights are for couldn agree that they serve the dual purpose letting people behind your car know that you have reverse and that they can also light the area behind your car while you backing you can see backup lamps current models are much brighter than they used older cars those taurus wagon are quite bright enough illuminate good area behind the car and they much brighter than those earlier cars from the and insofar vettes having side backup lights look model perhaps year two earlier too and you see red side marker lamps and white side marker lamps both near the car hindquarters those aren just white reflectors harv
rec.autos	station wagons was open letter nissan article apr leland stanford edu tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen writes but you never catch dead minivan even minivan based viper running gear hmmmm not sure since such beast exists can tell you another though you won catch dead gmc syclone typhoon either bhp not not even the fact that clint eastwood has one just taste rational reasons for teddy think the audi gets liter next year car just tested the wagon with banger and speed manual rave review except for servotronic audi trying recoup the development costs for the and since the not selling well they are sticking into the series cars neat marketing trick yeah wouldn bad idea competition for the upcoming bimmer would maybe they can use liter version avoid conflicts with the model then strip off all the luxo garbage let the remain with the flared arches and fat tires fight with the maybe turn the boost wee bit bump bhp say while keeping the with mercedes style subtlety blah blah blah eliot
rec.autos	mgbs and the real world article qlg uniwa uwa scott psy uwa scott fisher writes have you driven turbo converted now they are starting perform often thought mazda rotary would well the too anyone done but somebody dropped ford into the miata somewhat reminiscent the shelby cobra the car obviously not nimble before but supposed have near weight distribution and handle very well sure love drive one teddy
rec.autos	feedback requested lowering mustang article vllyoak resun com vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes have found kit advertised for lowering the front end early mustang installation envolves moving the upper arm and installation wedge shaped spacer between the arm and ball joint apparently shelby mustangs did similair modification but left out the spacer would interested feedback pro con such modification mustang head but don the early ones have simple strut suspension that with upper arm just strut going down lower control arm single bushing not arm with tension compression rod locating the forward backward direction anyway simple strut suspensions like this can lowered just using shorter springs cutting the springs lowering the spring perch shortening the strut below the perch each these cases the suspension geometry will suffer because the lower control arms will not the intended angle spacer placed between control arm and the bottom the strut roughly the height the reduction will restore the suspension geometry imho the kit that includes the spacer the only way ken ken dye optimist guy lachman technology inc chicago that has never had much experience dye lachman com archy
rec.autos	warning please read article kya boi com wesf boi com wes fujii writes brian larose larose austin utk edu wrote never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was hit the car have stop check out the damage and then jump and take the truck please aware folks and for your own good please don stop sad this sort thing the rise across the country south florida getting lot national coverage the subject where vacationers are being attacked and some killed schemes similar this make that worldwide coverage know numerous people who were planning holidays the florida and have now chosen another non destination you expect this sort thing perhaps third world countries but not the kevinh hasler ascom
rec.autos	sho and article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes article chrissc netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes wagon which have heard somehow slightly faster than the coupe wagon has automatic slower could due the rear end ratio also usually automatics have different rear ends than manuals from limited experience anyways david david hwang university michigan medical school wall street suite telephone ann arbor michigan internet david ganglion ann arbor
rec.autos	the kuebelwagen sorry for the mis spelling but forgot how spell after series exams and hand reference here still possible get those cute wwii jeep wanna replica would great think tkh can convert can anything not
rec.autos	aussie needs info car shows from australia car enthusiast australia particularly interested american muscle cars the and all makes amc ford chrysler mopar will the usa for weeks from may june chicago sun may thursday may denver friday may sunday may austin texas monday may friday may oklahoma city friday may monday may anaheim california tuesday may thursday may las vegas nevada friday may sunday may grand canion monday may tuesday june las angeles san diego and vicinity wednesday june sunday june june south lake tahoe cal sunday june wednesday june reno thursday june san fransisco thursday june sunday june was wondering anyone could send any information car shows swap meets drag meets model car shows etc during this period can anybody tell when the pomona swap meet this year also any places visit car museums private collections your collection etc any bit information appreciated also interested finding some model cars scale models intersted amc cars particular interest amx javelin scrambler rebel machine and others you have any kits plastics diecast etc and are interested selling them tell will interested can also send bring you models australian high performance cars you are interested please reply email johnt spri levels unisa edu thanks john tsimbinos
rec.autos	aussie needs info usa car shows swap meets from australia car enthusiast australia particularly interested american muscle cars the and all makes amc ford chrysler mopar will the usa for weeks from may june chicago sun may thursday may denver friday may sunday may austin texas monday may friday may oklahoma city friday may monday may anaheim california tuesday may thursday may las vegas nevada friday may sunday may grand canion monday may tuesday june las angeles san diego and vicinity wednesday june sunday june june south lake tahoe cal sunday june wednesday june reno thursday june san fransisco thursday june sunday june was wondering anyone could send any information car shows swap meets drag meets model car shows etc during this period can anybody tell when the pomona swap meet this year also any places visit car museums private collections your collection etc any bit information appreciated also interested finding some model cars scale models intersted amc cars particular interest amx javelin scrambler rebel machine and others you have any kits plastics diecast etc and are interested selling them tell will interested can also send bring you models australian high performance cars you are interested please reply email johnt spri levels unisa edu thanks john tsimbinos
rec.autos	thunderbird just bought bird and would like any info club and around the the coast eric thomas
rec.autos	warning please read article apr hasler ascom kevinh hslrswi hasler ascom kevinh writes article kya boi com wesf boi com wes fujii writes brian larose larose austin utk edu wrote never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was hit the car have stop check out the damage and then jump and take the truck please aware folks and for your own good please don stop sad this sort thing the rise across the country south florida getting lot national coverage the subject where vacationers are being attacked and some killed schemes similar this make that worldwide coverage know numerous people who were planning holidays the florida and have now chosen another non destination you expect this sort thing perhaps third world countries but not the response this and other articles that have been written this subject would like say that not just problem southern ontario last summer there were several instances along the where people mainly truckers were shot from overpasses there are many sick people out there and makes you wonder what the worlds coming kevinh hasler ascom
rec.autos	jeep wrangler opini article vlsi vill edu mobasser vlsi vill edu bijan mobasseri writes how square this with respectable resale value easy expensive buy new gonna expensive buy used patently false statement try this logic alfa fact marketplace has wonderufl mechanism adjust the value the cars that are overpriced the manufacturer expensive buy new not necessarily expnesive buy used fact could real cheap buy used depending what that car course note that not question your statements the reliability wrangler have never owned one driven one been one love have one though what don understand why this apparent neglect quality for many years has not filtered down into the used market jeep intoxicating irresistable and seductive make its purchase fatal attraction bijan yep they are popular vehicles you don see lot previous model year ones sitting dealer lots for any lenghth time after the new ones are out the things sell they are popular because they are popular and high priced new they are high price used very simple knew they were overpriced when bought knew they had terrible reliability record when bought but didn expect anything like got especially with dealer network unable repair personal experience has quickly cured infatuation with the machine dave
rec.autos	too fast jimf centerline com jim frost writes there are few things keep mind about europe since you brought autobahn knowledge admittedly second hand but believe the following true knowledge about driving the also second hand but think can correct your statements about our autobahn drivers are much better disciplined europe than they are here yeah that would paradise fact you can forget from all heard from relatives drivers esp here germany are much more agg ressive but not disciplined one relatives resident hired car the nuernberg airport and went about miles our home said then that grew about year older during this ride and swore never drive car germany again this was and kept his promise the situation now even worse effect the increased volume traffic what you mean better disciplined should perhaps considered cautious due fear when driving around here you always have take into consideration that the majority the other drivers absolutely relies you they expect that nobody fails sleeps many them exploit this driving fast their car can course only where that allowed you might think dream any mistake you make very high risk your health and you posed such situation from your very first day driver you learn handle you lose that the way and most people know experience our traffic situation whether you think this pleasant efficient you think handle very high volume traffic and that high speeds with modest compared the volume and decreasing rates lethal accidents otoh more and more people esp women dislike driving because they feel overtaxed and threatened and each accident one accident too much the roads comprising the autobahn are much better designed than they are here and usually include animal fences this makes them far more predictable than most highways better designed and maintained may but animal fences are very rare auto bahnen and many other streets have guard rails hope that the right word plank made from thick steel sheet fixed uprights about feet high those guard rails are designed for keeping vehicles the road smaller animals can crawl under the plank bigger ones can easily jump over the point that esp larger animals are very rare germany they tend also very timid accidents caused animals are neglegible danger not all europe the autobahn most places europe have speed limits that aren out line with what used have the friends weren lying they typically not much higher than you right there are speed linits even the major part the autobahn but the attitude towards driving see above seems very similar that germany been france switzerland italy austria spain belgium the netherlands besides that you really can rely the residents abiding the local speed limits got quite lot practise miles and used travel mph fyi with car even smaller than rabbit but consider driving the highways round paris milano really thrill strongly suspect you won find lot rabbit owners doing mph nearly the autobahn but could wrong sorry but you find quite lot rabbit class car even smaller mine peugeot owners going that fast small cars with much are very hip over here and most people buying such cars aren afraid let them run some people have respect for their own lives disagree the size weight car rather irrelevant formula cars weigh less than and the drivers have chance survive accidents mph higher otoh when crashing against solid object mph makes difference whether you sit porsche mercedes tank bicycle your dead bye stefan stefan dalibor dalibor immd uni erlangen and now for the next case kangaroo court accuse you being the reincarnation adolf hitler don think that mere denials will sufficient you will have submit examinations parapsychologist that personally select perry metzger pmetzger shearson com article news admin policy
rec.autos	said nissan altima best seller too was puzzled this obvious untruth what think going that nissan claims that the altima the best selling new car namelplate the think have this near verbatim lee iaccoca statistics dept would have been proud that sentence note that the corolla prism are also new designs but hey are not new nameplates guess nissan doesn even sell many altimas toyota does corollas there would nameplate qualifier
rec.autos	super mega automobile sighting exotics together give out the address drive and take look myself then post stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta home the braves
rec.autos	tires for ford ranger pickup have had good luck with ranger and yokohama tires the tires have been wearing well and even the few times have hauled heavy loads they have done well
rec.autos	ford and the automobile rwong eis calstate edu russel wong writes hello name russell wong and doing research project henry ford and his automobile need information whether ford partially responsible for all the car accidents cut off the other day drives like crazy person have say responsible for most accidents they really should pull his licence steve alan kulwicki winston cup champion
rec.autos	ford probe opinions centered around the article apr sco com nathanp sco com nathan writes jeremy mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions the ford probe ala how they the long run repair records reliability mileage etc fixing buy car the next few months aiming toward something little bigger than typical small car and with little more power considering the probe accord corolla and the bought probe with the pep last july now miles after debating over the sentra stealth prelude and celica the car design different than earlier years too early see its reliability far for what worth comments dislikes shutting door with windows from inside rarely makes good wind seal some other owners the ford probe world std com mailing list have commented about this problem but haven seen happen month old probe think this may something that ford has corrected since the initial batch cars also someone said that ford has issued service bulletin inform dealers about how correct this problem you may able get your dealer fix headlights have stuck few times weather air conditioning broke miles pressure cycling switch condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn drain completely haven seen any these problems nor have seen these mentioned the mailing list these might just having bad luck with these crammed engine little hope for yourselfers typical definitely parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn like sharp driveways and speedbumps typical assembly gripes tape radiator screw fell out dash seat seams not stitched properly hopefully just fluke problems like these either haven been able find any obvious places where they screwed ford only gives key with the car mon ford spend extra few pennies hmmm got two keys with car something tells you got stiffed your dealer this actually you count the credit card key that came the owner binder got keys but since the credit card key doesn have any teeth cut yet guess won count rear hatch has padding corners when waiting for the day when bash head the corner horn buttons behind air bag spokes and not center personal preference the latter probably because the air bag pretty much takes all the space where you expect find the horn speaking the horn was surprised find that the probe comes with one those nice merican sounding horns instead the japanese sounding kind the previous probes had japanese horns tires fling dirt mud onto side car yeah not very badly but enough annoying sometimes likes engine design valves sounds smoothness power mileage torque definitely handling very good for fwd understeer only limits transmission the speed must usable instrumentation lovely readable analog everywhere very little torque steer full power much better than the sho drive stability mph high gearing though low cowl good visibility front heated outside mirrors nice fog never tested freezing weather abs air bag see above rear seats fold down have few rear seat passengers trunk not important shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still tires goodyear eagles left hoping for agree strongly with all the above especially about the engine the interior very very nice too very pleasing the eye and ergonomically sound drive and from work each day relatively smooth roads and most noticable thing that the probe suspension doesn like potholes when you test drive one find potholed road somewhere around town and see the jarring you get tolerable yes this car stiff suspension isn for everyone personally like but you find little harsh but otherwise like the car strongly suggest looking into the you have passengers all means bring them along too they find that they have room the back and you find that the car rides differently that better you the problem with the back seat that there leg room plenty head room though shorter people fit back there without any complaints long the seat they are sitting behind pulled forward bit give them place put their feet also there lot glass around you which wasn expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot the summer back seat passengers now very few complain about the lack ventilation you may want consider that when combined with the heat the power moonroof can greatly improve the ventilation throughout the car really enjoy the moonroof the way but then always been sucker for open air driving leakage problems anything like that yet heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine haven heard about this one know that some the very early probes and maybe had problems with prematurely rusting mufflers which ford will replace charge but haven heard about anything like this concerning the probes haven had any real trouble with this car outside joint boot that was leaking but the dealer took care that promptly and even gave free rental car for the day and half that was without car was quite happy with the way they handled especially considering that was expecting the worst from them from what heard sounds like ford mazda had some problems with the probe and probably when they first went into production but think these problems have mostly been corrected this point that almost always expected with completely new car like this though hope this helps chuck chuck kesler internet chuck eos ncsu edu unix systems programmer mail box ncsu campus engineering computer operations raleigh usa north carolina state university phone
rec.autos	sticky lock tailgate toyota runner has rolldown rear window with keylock switch sticky yesterday was tough get the key work and also happened stick the direction the stalled motor was powered all night killing the battery like try lubricate the lock switch what should lubricate the lock with email please thanx ken don drink american corporate swill support you local micro brewery
rec.autos	renting from alamo hello netters visiting the from sweden august will probably rent chevy beretta from alamo been quoted for week for additional days this would include free driving distance but not local taxes baltimore they also told all insurance thats necessary included but doubt that cause friend rented car last year and turned out needed lot more insurance than what included the base price but the other hand didn rent from alamo does anyone have some info this rip off probability that needing more insurance the beretta good rental car thanx markus
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should option least heading that direction one the post sale questions they asked was like the choice cigarette liter accessory plug and another whether like the choice ashtray cup holder the geo storms have the cigarette lighter accessory plug option which did not exist the bought not sure about the ash tray cup holder step the right direction the ashtray does make convenient change holder not completely useless jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	haggle deals save you can sure they wouldn wasn their advantage mark
rec.autos	ford probe opinions centered around the article apr ncsu edu chuck eos ncsu edu chuck kesler writes rear hatch has padding corners when waiting for the day when bash head the corner horn buttons behind air bag spokes and not center personal preference the latter probably because the air bag pretty much takes all the space where you expect find the horn all toyotas have airbags with real horn come how hard can put little pressure plate there hope toyota doesn follow everyone else and make the horns little buttons that wouldn want fumble for john john nielsen magnus consultant you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened other people wasn the black adder
rec.autos	rush was too fast article mentor purdue edu marshatt feserve purdue edu zauberer writes guess wasn clear enough here said the roads were designed for speeds and still safe the current will add saftey margin they were designed for speeds upwards forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that dodge powerwagon not ford taurus
rec.autos	where can get new york taxi article srgenprp com almanb com bob alman writes hose dork
rec.autos	super mega automobile sighting exotics together alright beat this automobile sighting driving along just hair north atlanta noticed old run down former car dealership which appeared deal with and repair older rare exotic foreign sports cars saw ford the famous model from ford that seemed win most its races the late including mans times two jensen interceptors one convertable one hatchback porsche boring compared the rest three ferarries mondial prepared for racing and red model that couldn identify and the bottom late convertable outside there was rotting rover saloon which was never regularly sold the and the showroom there was small italian body either alpha romeo lancia was about the size austin mini the trunklid was missing exposing boot with voltage regulator the upper left corner the wall and chunk metal removed from the floor the right hand side something would leave the trunk and the outside from here the taillights looked like they would the round type they were there does anyone know what the make this one certainly made day graham thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	mercury capri restrictions the restriction could have with the car being convertible lot paronoid laws were passed concerning convertibles the these states may require greater rollover protection than the capri affords thatch harvey thatch harvey uucp longer valid domain thatchh hplsla com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens merkur suzuki gsx prince sports racer
rec.autos	removing rain coat the front windshield any tips you want summer without rain you the wrong place you must not have been here whole year yet keep the rain handy friend thatch thatch harvey uucp longer valid domain thatchh hplsla com hewlett packard lake stevens instrument division lake stevens merkur suzuki gsx prince sports racer
rec.autos	rush was too fast article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes article mentor purdue edu marshatt feserve purdue edu zauberer writes guess wasn clear enough here said the roads were designed for speeds and still safe the current will add saftey margin they were designed for speeds upwards forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that dodge powerwagon not ford taurus yes the powerwagon now there was vehicle that today cars can touch terms high speed road holding ability
rec.autos	blast the past amh lehigh edu alois himsl writes worthwhile how about something like the old mgb with new technology just think about the old style with upgraded safety features and perhaps natural gas operated engine for less than think would over well what your opinion well the mgb currently production for the english market built rover now has improved suspention and slightly updated body too bad only available and would set one back about graham thomas blah blah blah blah blah georgia institute technology blah blah blah blah blah internet grahamt oit gatech edu blah blah blah blah blah
rec.autos	 lehigh edu danny phornprapha writes getting car the near future narrow down and which might better choice thanks for your opnion danny been asking myself this same question for the past year when you find out would you please share the magistic answer with the way see right now work twice hard you can have both cheers issa suggestion why not work twice hard like issa suggested above then get acura nsx enjoy seb
rec.autos	grand cyl article holcomb apr wgermany ctron com holcomb ctron com edgar holcomb writes article apr remus rutgers edu wilmott remus rutgers edu ray wilmott writes all while back was asking for info about few different models the grand being one them response was generally favorable one thing often repeated was for the for some real power point well taken but does anybody have any input the cylinders both the standard ohc and the quad ray the high output quad delivers for the quad whereas the offered the grand delivers own beretta gtz ooppss the the grand the litre not the the downsized version buicks litre the goes the beretta and corsica
rec.autos	buick heater controls had the exactly same problem with lesabre was also from cal what did was the local junkyard and pick diaphragm from lesabre with the same heater set worked for but little bit slow change from vents defogger better than nothing
rec.autos	improvements automatic transmissions article qugvu quad wfunet wfu edu hagenjd wfu edu jeff hagen writes thanx all those who responded particularly those never driven xxx but here what like guys all know that new age are great traffic and satisfactory job acceleration when you keep your foot buried the carpet question regards downshifting not downshifting pass are good this now but manually moving the lever point where you would downshift manual approaching red light curve just tooling around parking lot shifting this why still manual trans bigot the downshifting for deceleration seems natural when try this automatic the tranny doesn seem understand what want addendum isn great after downshifting while approaching that red light when the light goes green and you already cam the turbo already spooled zippppppppppp hagen hagenjd wfu edu have grand with auto and quad around the gear selector there plastic strip which covers the space you can see inside anyway took the cover off and cut the end this long strip specific length the strip curls into cirlce one end inside anyway doing this the strip can feed into the lip that circles can push button pull down and the gear shifter will only back from drive accidental hitting first drive around town keep the revs shift drive above and pull down when coming lights want eating food drive drive there are probably aftermarket shift kits that will accomplish the same thing porsche tip tronic automatic can driven like auto put into mode tip upshift tip down downshift course there override you don redline the engine
rec.autos	braindead drivers who don look ahead article tekig pen tek com jitloke tekig pen tek com jit loke lim writes article apr cbnewsd att com hhm cbnewsd att com herschel mayo writes anybody going anywhere block the would passers not only for own good but theirs well even though they are often too stupid realize are looking for good people just like you are very concerned group citizens who are absolutely disgusted the way that the majority drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit passing our right and riding our tails while all the while respectfully abide the rules this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated certified cruise controls while keeping the respectful car length distance mph speed how many times have you been ticked off some moron who jumps ahead the car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead you while driving mph finally you have option are totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good for the good this great country but most all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid realize bless their souls for paltry you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting non profit members only society but but but there slight hitch the initiation rite full fledged member this exclusive club you must proof that you are able the fast lane the busiest interstate your area keep the correct car lenth mph speedand know this can difficult with those morons around not let anybody pass you not the next lane not the slow lane not the breakdown lane not nowhere for complete list acceptable interstates and times send and the way over our members are highly regarded attorneys the auto field and they are completely absolutely positively the business only serve your best interests testament their virtues they will give members off the initial consultation fee feel free drop line your earliest convenience and remember only speed kills jit course you are bunch arrogant lawyers who know whats best for the rest you are doing such wonderful job with our judicial system getting all the criminals off bow your superior intellect not mention the fees you collect from poor slobs who get tickets from speeding state police officers you can soak when court just love lawyer jokes don you
rec.autos	alarm systems are they worthwhile article apr news eng convex com dodson convex com dave dodson writes worthwhile get alarm system new car although others have the past and will continue disagree think that worthwhile get alarm what features are important think that important protect your trunk engine bay all doors get flashing lights led mounted the drivers and passenger door and relay disable engine operation toss glass break sensor and shock sensor door lock and unlock two remotes and panic feature are also nice have most important where you have the installation done some places may cost little more but poorly installed alarm matter how much cost will major burden what features are unimportant imo things like engine starters voice alarms window sunroof open and close and most other conveniences dave dodson dodson convex com convex computer corporation richardson texas larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need explain you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article oasys navy mil glouie oasys navy mil george louie writes rec autos nancy hayduke nancy feagans writes ashtrays and cigarette lighters these should option why make option you can use the ashtray store coins and other small things which come handy use the cigarette lighter electrical outlet for all types handy gadgets players vacuum cleaners flashlights etc don want pay extra for these things and you don use them they don hurt you use the ashtray keep change and other items converted the cigarette lighter into volume control knob for trunk subwoofer george larry keys csmes ncsl nist gov fahrvergnugen forever the fact that need explain you indicates that you probably wouldn understand anyway
rec.autos	warning please read article apr erich triumf music erich triumf fred bach writes article ssd intel com jrowell ssd intel com janet rowell writes could plase cease this discussion fail see why people feel the need expound upon this issue for days and days end these areas are not meant for this type discussion you feel the need such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks exactly point there lot hostility and from teenagers you follow the news for the northwest usa you will have heard that group year old boys barely out the teens certainly their outlook was developed during their teens just shot and killed innocent little girl riding car the seattle area when her mother who was driving honked her horn the car with the boys this really upsetting and makes stomach turn would any parent doesn your heart just out that poor mother teenagers both drive cars and are involved automotive vandalism and crime maybe someone this newsgroup has had specific experience dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are the same seems sad that people lose all perspective when they here about case violence teenagers for little perspective how about the thousands kind teenagers who volunteer local agencies help children seniors the homeless did you read about all the kids stanford who spent their spring breaks helping out inner city areas what about the hundreds volunteers teenagers and others who worked clean the mess after the rodney king riots have you gone your local high school play recently attended the school orchestra performances have you seen how many kids volunteer pick trash plant trees walk thons how many kids have tried sell you stuff benefit organizations they belong how many girl scout cookies have you bought how many chocolate bars for good causes the media picks all the anomalies the sensational what about the wonderful teenagers all over the place who work hard school get good grades college work and make real contribution our society all humans are teenagers some time their lives mother theresa was teenager and was geoffrey dahmer really sad see many people who buy the sensational reporting the media some kind reflection the world today reflection what happening the outer fringes our society and nothing more
rec.autos	alarm systems are they worthwhile article apr news eng convex com dave dodson dodson convex com writes worthwhile get alarm system new car what features are important what features are unimportant that question that can only answered yourself and where you live you live place where crime apparent then might good idea get one simply deterrent however professional thief wants your vehicle its good gone matter what you but slow down any thieves would good idea get the basic options that would ignition kill fuel cut off flashing red led these two are basic decent alarm system slow down the criminal some more get steering wheel lock that should sufficient persuade the thief find easier target but then there always car jacking why life confusing hope helped somewhat jason yow human factors psychology program wright state university dayton mail jyow desire wright edu
rec.autos	fast idle ford ranger did again this morning ford ranger was idling rpm exaggerated little but was idling very fast has liter carburated engine and blipping the throttle would cause the idle drop back normal don think the linkage stuck what can fix this problem this has been problem from time time but has straightened itself out until now don have tach but gauging the sound the engine idling about twice fast should this down from what was idling when pulled stop light many thanks for any suggestions les les bartel going live forever intergraph corporation die trying electronics division ljbartel ingr com ljbartel naomi ingr com
rec.autos	said nissan altima best seller guess that makes altima the most generic car the
rec.autos	haggle deals save local dealer advertising negotiation necessary make you wonder
rec.autos	ford probe opinions centered around the jeremy mereness zonker cmu edu says can anyone offer any opinions the ford probe ala how they the long run repair records reliability mileage etc fixing buy car the next few months aiming toward something little bigger than typical small car and with little more power considering the probe accord corolla and the the probe the youngest the bunch thus interest opinions but every magazine and ratings book places excellent value btw the rear wheel drive and due for design for thanks advance while don read normally read this group was looking for valentine radar information sigh maybe the faq and came across your posting bought probe with the pep last july now miles after debating over the sentra stealth prelude and celica check this month consumer reports for previous probe records criteria fun car with abs airbag over and less than thought about turbo but checking with insurance people ruled that out the tri star cars eclipse talon etc were out since they don have air bag ditto for the mustang also abs the fell into the pocket rocket category good used car buy the was almost there but rolled more than liked didn like the prelude dash instrumentation all too weird for the has much smaller non passenger space than needed out that went the celica was but underpowered when loaded with options and somewhat overpriced too non turbo form never considered the since didn have airbag did look for its rwd virtues but that the corolla never entered mind should have looked the mitsubishi dodge stealth more since list was exhausted bought the probe the car design different than earlier years too early see its reliability far for what worth comments dislikes shutting door with windows from inside rarely makes good wind seal headlights have stuck few times weather air conditioning broke miles pressure cycling switch condensation around rear washer fluid container doesn drain completely crammed engine little hope for yourselfers typical parts somewhat more expensive than normal ford parts underside plastic doesn like sharp driveways and speedbumps typical assembly gripes tape radiator screw fell out dash seat seams not stitched properly hopefully just fluke ford only gives key with the car mon ford spend extra few pennies rear hatch has padding corners when waiting for the day when bash head the corner horn buttons behind air bag spokes and not center personal preference tires fling dirt mud onto side car likes engine design valves sounds smoothness power mileage torque definitely handling very good for fwd understeer only limits transmission the speed must usable instrumentation lovely readable analog everywhere very little torque steer full power much better than the sho drive stability mph high gearing though low cowl good visibility front heated outside mirrors nice fog never tested freezing weather abs air bag see above rear seats fold down have few rear seat passengers trunk not important shake rattle noises when going over bumps potholes still tires goodyear eagles left hoping for you can see primarily interested the engine while doesn have the uummmph big liter car the turbo rush the big selling point for was the all aluminum value liter engine the overall car good buy for the money that market segment hasn changed much since july prelude vtec honda del sol drive and from work each day relatively smooth roads and most noticable thing that the probe suspension doesn like potholes when you test drive one find potholed road somewhere around town and see the jarring you get tolerable you have passengers all means bring them along too they find that they have room the back and you find that the car rides differently that better you also there lot glass around you which wasn expecting the temperature inside the car gets pretty hot the summer back seat passengers now very few complain about the lack ventilation you may want consider that when combined with the heat heard that the exhaust system has trouble but mine works fine leather and the keyless entry system weren available when got the car can comment them got the car before was officially announced prefer cloth leather anyway wouldn want this car the snow the suspension too rough for the inevitable surprise potholes tires aren meant for snow and the seats assume that you not wearing lots thick clothing rain much better water generally beads off the windshield freeway speed the windshield wiper controls are easy and understandable and barely hydroplaned once with the eagles and was really trying there also definite lack cup holder small storage places the has map holders below the speakers the door but they rigid plastic that could fit two cassettes max the center console storage bin arm rest has cup holder and the back the front seats have cloth pouch but that change holders quite let down from the sho and the probe definitely not people mover car econo box car lastly don store wet car covers the back the foam will soak the water and the result will not smell pleasant nathan nathan sco com jeremy mereness support olde disclaimer zonker cmu edu internet free the above represent fast project cmu gsia software opinions alone mechanical engineering cmu gotta love every silver lining got touch grey this year marks the anniversary the bill rights nathan sco com comment they coming take away napolean xiv
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon are working gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications this kind system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent from the exhaust gas anyone interested this mail email follow this thread may have discussion prospects this technology max max phd internet mgqlu ntu division thermal enginerring bitnet mgqlu ntuvax bitnet school mpe nanyang technological university phone nanyang avenue singapore fax
rec.autos	warning please read tobias convex com allen tobias writes article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik vel this happened about year ago the washington beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks down cars from overpass four five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting the front seat one them was struck the head one the larger rocks don recall she made but think she was comatose for month and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell happening this great country ours can see boyhood pranks peeing off bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society have known coming apart the seams the basic reason that human life has been devalued the point were killing someone big deal kid see hundreds murderous acts can abort children demand and kill the sick and old will why surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear life cheap well people fortunatly unfortunatly only the experiencing the devaluation human life among developed nations american but was raised europe where the worst thing that can happen somebody get his car broken into have his pocket picked slaves russian refugees cource there will some nutcases but thats extremely rare greece you can walk through any neighborhood any time during the night without even worrying germany you can walk the sidewalks and not even look behind your back the sanitation crews that clean the streets sparkling cleen whoever you have been there you know what saying dont have any easy answers but nation some selfcritisism might get somewhere course these postings sould soc culture but reduce crime here mean less car insurance rates thus could spend more money modifing our cars now posting rec autos tech revelant vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications sig under development
rec.autos	warning please read neilson seoul mpr robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that why low abiding citizens should have the power protect themselve and their property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous you have the power steve you can why don you why don you shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take from those kids are mean ditto you dont yourself nobody will unless behind you both can shoot them bastards
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr rtfm mlb gwalker rtfm mlb grayson walker writes why crawl under the car all have machine got for boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube does excellent job and moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than using the drain plug think paid marine the oil goes into steel gal can wait until cools and decant into your favorite device use soft drink bottles easy take them down the local oil recycle center this does sound good but heard tends leave more grit etc the oil pan also been told change the old when hot before the grit has much time settle any opinions bryan welch amateur radio sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer all opinion everything there
rec.autos	warning please read article joit bcstec boeing com neil bcstec boeing com neil williams writes larose austin utk edu brian larose writes this just warning everybody the net watch out for folks standing next the road overpasses they can cause serious harm you and your car just cliff notes version story follows last night was travelling the interstate here knoxville was taking offramp exit another interstate and wife suddenly screamed and something large hit the side truck slowed down but after looking back see the vandals standing there drove the police station she did get good look the guy and saw him cock his arm with something the size cinderblock but never saw him are very lucky the truck sits high the road would have hit her window would have killed her the police are looking for the guy but all likelyhood gone very good driver knock wood but was night time and never saw the guy the police said they thought the motive was hit the car have stop check out the damage and then jump and take the truck please aware folks and for your own good please don stop peace brian larose larose utk edu essary knoxville long the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding the front toyota pickup heading south interstate north seattle someone threw rock overpass and hit our windshield not accident sure was impossible get the overpass quickly see who did figured was kids reported and left couple years ago happend again and killed guy company was his mid fourties and left behind wife and children turned out there was reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did they put cover over the overpass what else could they don think over forget this story des moines iowa about year ago some kid dropped rock from overpass and hit car just behind the windshield put dent the roof guess was lucky hit metal frustrating that can much bother the city government put covers all overpasses slow down speed bit when driving under all overpasses the city like the first better but that will take time and lots people talking the city governments just another bryan welch amateur radio sfg internet europa vnet ibm com best bwelch scf nmsu edu everything will perish save love and music scots gaelic proverb disclaimer all opinion everything there
rec.autos	too fast boyle cactus org craig boyle writes the quality autobahns something myth the road surface isn much different typical freeway they are better terms lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc they light the highways texas funny everywhere else been they only light junctions won even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant than most the roads here dip the asphalt that you test your shocks will kill you don get wrong love would have quite severe don recall any freeway without road damage warnings that would regard unsafe any decent well damped car suspect you have very limited experience freeways vary dramatically particularly between states can name number interstate highways various parts the country where would very optimistic any car not sure what you call quite severe terms road deviations but suspect every single bridge junction through would considered they hard take mph that not the only interstate seen with such deviations but one drive frequently texas pretty much edge case you can assume that everywhere has roads such good condition such flat terrain and such wide open spaces just ain jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	rush was too fast wharf wrat rites they were designed for speeds upwards forget the exact spec but for military vehicles that dodge powerwagon not ford taurus ever once while you still see reference the super slab system interstate and defense highways but whether the military has much anything that goes the road another matter few their most whomped diesel trucks maybe load permitting the military surplus stuff driven jeep classic willys kaiser amc pre independent suspension and power wagons slant crew cab pickup weren exactly congenial highway speeds and wouldn swear any them would except bedload semi you just gotta love the standard military tire too least the one they used use designed circa compromise between traction icky sticky goo and longevity sharp rocks and forth quite ill adapted high speeds civilian roadways for those who can remember what they look like imagine mountain bike tire with road rib the middle scaled car size yeah and narrow too one the standard mods for civilizing surplus jeep was install tires and wheels that reflected some the advancements made ride and handling since day but the point made wharfie and others still stands you going mil spec power wagon jeep tank transporter other unwieldy rubber tired vehicle anywhere suggest the american interstate your safe speed there tends limited more your car and skills road maintenance and the swarms fools around you the roads were designed for going like the devil naturally neither nor employer advocates unsafe unlawful driving joe just another personal opinion from the people republic berkeley
rec.autos	importing volvo well afraid the time has come rice burner has finally died always promised wife that would scandanavian tour when car died and pick volvo sweden drive around and then import home can anyone give advice feasibility and relative costs references where might learn more personal experience please email thanks
rec.autos	selling car through car hunter anybody got any good bad experience with selling their car through one those car hunters selling dodge stealth and was contacted this company called the markham group based out illinois they said they have buyers area interested car they wouldn talking they talked for good minutes asking everything about car and said they could sell problem they guaranteed that they didn sell car days would get money back and since charged protected federal law which states that not satisfied would get refund which true they federal expressed all the paperwork which had contract stating their policy about the days and such called the bbb illinois and they not have file them which good news they definitely are legitimate company but far been over week and have gotten nothing how effective are these types companies anybody care share their experiences
rec.autos	trading car that not paid for pointers please article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes planning purchasing new car and will trading mazda still got more years pay how does that get taken into account when purchase new car does the dealership pay off car and add the amount they had pay the purchase price the new car someone please explain this you don already know you should call the bank credit union finance company that holds the loan your present car and get the current payoff cost you are trading your current car the new car subtract the payoff amount from the trade the dealer giving you this turns out negative number you need reconsider the deal subtract this difference from the price the new car this the size the loan you will need for the new car the dealer will take care paying off the loan your old car out the money you give them when you pick your new car least that how worked for years ago ohio thanks rhonda joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com box usenet like tetris for people who still akron remember how read heller
rec.autos	ford and the automobile ford and his automobile need information whether ford partially responsible for all the car accidents and the depletion the ozone layer also any other additional information will greatly appreciated thanks sssssoooooooooooo its all his fault thank god louis chevrolet innocent and that guy diesel otto feel guilty stephen phillips atlanta response center atlanta home the braves
rec.autos	warning please read rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands kind teenagers who volunteer local agencies help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don read that much about violence against teenagers such george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying surrender with bulldozers the other hand think true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence more socially acceptable than used those who like discourage violence have plenty work with people all ages
rec.autos	water trunk probe water gradually builds the trunk friend ford probe every once while would have remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover the trunk would guess this usually happens after good thunder storm few this common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch thanks for any info tom tom szeto not those peanuts the ones the tszeto sneezy stratus com bottom ggnuuaahuuhh include disclaimer homer simpson
rec.autos	eagle talon tsi lemon rec autos jay lorenzana uicvm uic edu wrote dear netters looking buy used eagle talon tsi awd would concerned about how the car was driven and how well was maintained own turbocharged one and would never buy turbocharged vehicle unless knew the owner and his her driving maintenance habits question that the tsi awd was mentioned the april consumer reports car avoid have been wondering about that myself the awd models and the were identical except for the abs option particular the manual transmission yes some owners had problems with the transaxles using synthetic lubricants the transaxles solved the problem most cases the problem was not unique the awds however was common all models the galant and gsx had the same transaxle but didn see those listed electrical system don know any major complaints this area except that the battery that was installed the factory had low current rating and brakes were below par both models the first fwd models those built before may were recalled for brake upgrades some fwd and awd owners had problems with warped rotors those who insist using manual torque wrenches every time the lug nuts are tightened have never had problem friend mine ownes tsi awd and has had brake jobs pads can refer you someone who has gone through set pads one day all depends how you drive seems that most owners have been getting between set pads one stuck valve first time hear about problem with the valve train these cars other than timing belt failures and some clutch transmission problem something about sticking grinding into second gear this doesn seem too bad one beats his car your friend beats the car then his unit not representative sample the car reliability suggestion instead listening the useless consumer reports talk several owners the mailing list may the best way reach few them willing suffer reliability for speed and looks seems you have pay big buck you want all three anyway can anyone please let know how you like your talon and any problems you may have had and the repairs are worth humor impaired skip theend matter how much you pay you won get all three examples nsx reliability and looks ferrari reliability yeah right speed and looks theend the opinions stated above are not necessarily employer roberto landrau landrau mitre org rll linus mitre org the mitre corporation bedford rll linus uucp
rec.autos	car saftey important was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what found was car would given recommended under the picture while few sentences later noting how driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed killed front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating all the small cars listed there were many such cases great vehicles where you wouldn survive accident only safety not one the most important factors when buying car
rec.autos	renting from alamo article apr ericsson etxmst sta ericsson writes hello netters visiting the from sweden august will probably rent chevy beretta from alamo been quoted for week for additional days this would include free driving distance but not local taxes baltimore they also told all insurance thats necessary included but doubt that cause friend rented car last year and turned out needed lot more insurance than what included the base price but the other hand didn rent from alamo does anyone have some info this rip off that sounds pretty reasonable for that car and that city probability that needing more insurance unless you have accident you won need more you plan paying for the car with credit card check and see your card automatically covers rental cars also your own auto insurance may cover rental cars also most rental companies here offer extra insurance when you rent and require you initial several spots you don want the credit cards and personal auto insurance provide the same sort coverage that the rental agency trying sell have never rented from alamo don know they follow this same practice the beretta good rental car yes compact door probably bit dull performance and acceleration wise but very adequate will have automatic transmission stereo air conditioning and possibly power windows and door locks joe joseph staudt telxon corp joes telxon com box usenet like tetris for people who still akron remember how read heller
rec.autos	manual shift bigots previous article eric youngblood says article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes race car stuff deleted back the stuff for second note that the auto tranny still shifts the driver command not some preselected schedule the driver still controls the shifting not the transmission now there dispute that production cars automatics are inherently more lossy than manuals that theory point all along that whatever mechanical advantages manual has over automatic can very easily lost driver who isn skillful one thing that gives automatic advantage launch the fact that has torque converter clutch know this sounds strange but torque converter multiplies the engine output when launching functions sort limited continuously variable transmission typically you get torque multiplication times depending the stall speed have yet see torque multiplier installed production automobile such systems exist but none are presently installed production autos that aware these are commonly called viscous drive cvts fluidic amplifiers contrasted clutch which merely slips when feathered result mult what the convertor does allow for the engine closer its torque peak during the launch before clutched car can fully engage driveline chevy proved many years ago with the camaro ets and terminal mile times were close enough tpo identical for speed and auto cars note that this also the major reason that auto car can get away with fewer gears than manual the slip the convertor makes for the fewer ratios and before everyone starts yelling about the proposed sspeed autos soon out note that some manufacturers are using speed manulas now once past lauch however the converter begins coupling and the multiplication effect reduced but then you should the cam correct bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	internal leak carburetor friend toyota tercel accelerates itself without using the gas peddel the repairman said has internal leak air the carburetor and needs new carburetor costs she likes know possible fix the problem without replacing the whole carburetor thank you
rec.autos	bbb autoline arbitration bbb autoline arbitration experience over the outcome was decidedly mixed won the battle but lost the war the arbitrator found that the car was defective but decided offer repurchase well below market value the time the hearing average retail truck the nada book was but the decision was for wrote letter the council better business bureaus pointing out the fact that you have automobile that does not depreciate rapidly the manufacturer has incentive deal with you there way that the manufacturer can loose because they can turn around and sell the vehicle profit the consumer awarded repurchase the attitude chevrolet representative the hearing tends support this point view was totally unprepared and did not seem take the proceeding very seriously decided take the repurchase even though getting totally screwed the price will not have deal with continuing repairs selling lemon myself and have case for civil suit based the idaho lemon law planning send letter elected representatives telling them how utterly ridiculous the idaho lemon law the law allows for use deduction equal the irs mileage allowance chevrolet were buying gas and paying for insurance summary the case may bought new ton chevrolet pickup between may and december this vehicle required repair after repair systems that required attention included the transmission heater fan paint suspension and motor the main problem was the five speed manual transmission they could not install non defective transmission least four attempts summary possible get repurchase but you are going get screwed the price unless you paid too much the first place your car happens model that depreciates rapidly jackw hpdmd boi com
rec.autos	warning please read article apr erich triumf music erich triumf fred bach writes xref taco alt parents teens rec autos path taco gatech howland reston ans net zaphod mps ohio state edu saimiri primate wisc edu caen destroyer ubc unixg ubc erich triumf music from music erich triumf fred bach newsgroups alt parents teens rec autos subject warning please read date apr pst organization triumf tri university meson facility lines distribution world message apr erich triumf references joit bcstec boeing com apr erich triumf bigboote wpi edu ssd intel com nntp posting host erich triumf summary violent teenagers and victims need help keywords brick rock danger gun violent teenagers news software vax vms vnews article ssd intel com jrowell ssd intel com janet rowell writes could plase cease this discussion fail see why people feel the need expound upon this issue for days and days end these areas are not meant for this type discussion you feel the need such things please take your thought elsewhere thanks just want second this request value this net group one where people focus solving problems and out their way respectful differences the hostility expressed the original posting feels like assault thanks jan exactly point there lot hostility and from teenagers look sent these posts here alt parents teens with copy rec autos since you people this group may have the best advice for and experience with troubled teenagers you follow the news for the northwest usa you will have heard that group year old boys barely out the teens certainly their outlook was developed during their teens just shot and killed innocent little girl riding car the seattle area when her mother who was driving honked her horn the car with the boys this really upsetting and makes stomach turn would any parent doesn your heart just out that poor mother yes fred heart and prayers out the mother and others who have been victims these and other senseless crimes you folks this group have responsibility offer any good advice that you may have suspect lots people all over the world will read and appreciate your comments however feel that you have missed the point the previous postings see top your statement responsibility felt attack towards the members this group you are attempting make the members this group required answer the only people who should make statement are people who have experienced the problem and found workable solution teenagers both drive cars and are involved automotive vandalism and crime maybe someone this newsgroup has had specific experience dealing with violent teenage offenders like these kids are the same time maybe you would have some good advice for those hostile people who sense that are now the potential victims maybe you would have some good advice for them how not pay back and not make the situation worse maybe you have some good advice for local authorities schools where this problem prevalent but then again maybe you not interested many people are interested but have input will restate that your last sentence here seen attack the members this group people have input they will give they not you should not make them feel compelled respond you wish continue this conversation please send mail not repost attempt bait will not make another post and may make the same suggestion other group members this matter thanks advance for your help get any btw your welcome jerry storrs system network manager why you look for the living dept chemical engineering ncsu among the dead not here storrs che ncsu edu preferred risen storrs eos ncsu edu luke the lord risen indeed any statement made the explicit belief the writer and not the employer
rec.autos	wife wants convertible nuet pts mot com keith nuetzman writes help wife has informed that she wants convertible for her next car vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results what they thought were the best cars for the convertible category the honda civic del sol achieved this honor the one down side see with the car its interior looks inexpensive and dull own del sol and must vouch for the interior really looks snazzy when the top off looks lot better person than the television saw that motorweek well needless say was smiling bit the time was over watch out for that darned convertible tan tho diane dspalme mke comm
rec.autos	passat advice sought article apr remus rutgers edu hong remus rutgers edu hyunki hong writes currently the car market and would like opinions passat glx how does compare toyota camry thought the car looked very solid stable and european only disappointment far that that doesn offer airbao next question why isn offering automobiles with airbags should pay the extra three thousand for bmw even though smaller and less powerful than than the passat think got caught out the airbag thing only been the last year two that airbags have become significant selling feature assumed that automatic belts would satisfy govt requirements for passive restraint but didn guess that the merican consumer would actually make buy decisions based the presence airbag really hurting right now the market check out the article last week autoweek about the crisis golfs and jettas will coming from the plant mexico but they don have the quality that facility per normal practice the launch the jetta iii delayed again and again until good chunk the useful life the design spent think that passats come from germany there not the same quality and availability issue nice car with nice engine whether will player the market two year time different question leave the passat camry flamewar for someone else
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon article apr ntuix ntu mgqlu ntuix ntu max writes are working gas solid adsorption air con system for auto applications this kind system the energy for regenerating the adsorbent from the exhaust gas anyone interested this mail email follow this thread may have discussion prospects this technology bite how this supposed work tim
rec.autos	chevy sprint wfnmbjg wboe andrew cmu edu srinagesh gavirneni andrew cmu edu writes have chevy sprint with and doors odometer turned and the sensor light started blinking went the dealer and said was maintenance light saying need change the oxygen sensor said changed every but since bought the car when had don know the same thing happened and quoted for the part and install the part cost outside but the mechanic went could not fix saying the sensor placed too deep the engine parts suggested wait till malfunctions before anything anyone out there owns chevy sprint want know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing without the dealer help also what are the results the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would greatly apprecisted thanks sold sprint last april with driven since the previous july putting miles the sensor light used light regularly starting about miles after bought brother and rebuilt the engine but used all the original equipment suppose the sensor could have used replacement performance hah you could call that did not change perhaps emissions increased but how much emissions could registered cylinder engine produce that was neat car held the engine block easily one hand has anyone ever driven the turbo variant just curious adam edwards awds ltd uhura rochester edu
rec.autos	getting car need opinions article qqp usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu chun ung wan writes previous article lehigh edu danny phornprapha says have budget looking for sports car what you think would the best buy looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work for all out sports car for the without the sports suspension which too stiff for little more practicality and more comfort the nissan turbo good buy and for good dose luxury the lexus perfect with manual transmission course however the toyota supra coming out soon and you like looks the performance supposed great almost race car like don particulary like the mitsubishi the dodge stealths they are too heavy and aren very nimble handlers for sports car motion picture major the brooks institute photography santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind the forerunner all states the only thing about the turbo and new supra they about more over his budget good and you will lonely mark twain
rec.autos	sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions just read articals this road and track and car and driver that one mag two and was wondering people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have say looking the following three suv anyone who driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder currently leaning toward the toyota cause had big success with toyota trucks the past and cause think the best looking the three but thought see anyone has any strong opinions thanks karl karl elvis macrae software release support cisco systems kmac cisco com batman cisco com dod shovels and rakes and implements destruction arlo guthrie
rec.autos	car saftey important tcorkum bnr trevor corkum writes only safety not one the most important factors when buying car depends your priorities lot people put higher priorities gas mileage and cost than safety buying unsafe econoboxes instead volvos personally take middle ground the only thing really look for three point seatbelt and mph bumpers figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren common enough for spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots low speed collisions that worry jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	warning please read article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes anything hadn emptied his gun into the asshole texas whole other country that reminds one texas ads you hear guy speaking french like letter home then the french moves the background and french accented voice come the foreground talking about how went walking the beach and felt much like home that decided take his shoes off and the rest his clothes ended with please send bail rec autos note does anyone carry gun them keep one their car which bad idea isn you work bad part town regularly through one this loaded question normally have unloaded colt delta glove box with loaded magazine handy which perfectly legal oklahoma for those times that travelling inter state keep unloaded magnum revolver the glove box with speed loader pocket which legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police hanged said before this stricly for defense insurance will pay replace car but only have one life james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	slick any good hmmm was listening the local radio expert who amazingly enough honest god expert amazing what knows and said that based his conversations with the inventor slick who longer with the comapny due some kind conflict avoids like the plague does recommend other teflon based type oil additives though james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	info opinions wanted cars this article article apr magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes article fibercom com rrg rtp fibercom com rhonda gaines writes the market for new car currently own mazda which has served just fine however like get door car since don relish the thought moving carseat around door car criteria are door cassette quick acceleration cruise control decent rear seat legroom husband footer must also under preferably closer the range which will probably rule out the accord the cars that have caught eye are toyota corolla toyata camry mazda pontiac grand pontiac grand prix honda accord and civic roomy enough and still comes door model hyundai sonata and maybe even small oldsmobile although not the achieva all opinions benchmarks recommendations etc are welcome really wouldn consider the grand achevia skylark all the same since they are very bad frontal collsions and don have any other really outstanding qualities john really must object that last statement having lot experience with grand coupe can firmly state that they have lot outstanding qualities very reliable throughout great layout controls and components very roomy considering the exterior size the car they look sharp inside and out the that drive has exceptional power and drivability compared other similar cars that have driven all all fun drive dependable and reasonably priced vehicle please don knock with statement like that unless you back with specific reasons why you feel that way rob bell plains nodak edu john nielsen magnus consultant you baldrick the renaissance was just something that happened other people wasn the black adder
rec.autos	what car this was wondering anyone out there could enlighten this car saw the other day was door sports car looked from the late early was called bricklin the doors were really small addition the front bumper was separate from the rest the body this all know anyone can tellme model name engine specs years production where this car made history whatever info you have this funky looking car please mail thanks brought you your neighborhood lerxst
rec.autos	warning please read 
rec.autos	sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions just read articals this road and track and car and driver that one mag two and was wondering people out there have any opinions that differed from what these mags have say depending how you plan use your suv might recommend also browsing trailer boats and one more those pickup shotgun and magazines the car rags mostly seem consider recently graded pea gravel offroading and ten sacks redwood chips bedload considering that most these suvs seem used mostly robust station wagons that probably not bad approach but your applications are more demanding pick your information sources accordingly the three vehicles your short list explorer runner pathfinder recommend the runner being closely based rather robust pickup and the explorer for being comfortably carlike don know much about the pathfinder good luck joe just another personal opinion from the people republic berkeley
rec.autos	opel owners article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking friend has one sitting his yard really nice condition body wise but transmission has seized him hasn run for while does anyone have any info these cars the engine compartment looks really tight work but fine shape and quite interested thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader sounds lot more like opel guess that this the same chassis the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily wrong think the later kadett were sold here buick opels craig chintan amin llama uiuc edu chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	noisy engine day people are there any owners motor head gurus out there that know why engine sounds noisy the engine noisy the best times but not even nice nose one those very ugly noises oil change every months and for about months the engine noise sounds relatively quiet during driving and idling around the month mark after oil change been tracking this very thoroughly for months now starts get that very disgusting noise not much during driving but more during idling what its problem also don know just but noticed little performance drop just hasn got the acceleration used any help tips would appreciated worried
rec.autos	super mega automobile sighting exotics together article qvgg innl phantom gatech edu graham thomas grahamt phantom gatech edu writes alright beat this automobile sighting can top that one friday afternoon look out window long beach what see but the new ferrari looks like mix between the ragtop testarossa and the batman car seems ferrari had their annual dinner the place downstairs sweet car
rec.autos	warning please read sorry about that last post server neglected send the message can please keep this group automotive topics thank you
rec.autos	opel owners boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking friend has one sitting his yard really nice condition body wise but transmission has seized him hasn run for while does anyone have any info these cars the engine compartment looks really tight work but fine shape and quite interested thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader sounds lot more like opel guess that this the same chassis the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily wrong think the later kadett were sold here buick opels craig think the manta the european name for the pretty sure that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the just early mid manta chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	opel owners article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader chintan amin sounds more like opel neat cars fun drive sold through buick from through remember correctly believe was that there were some engine mods made such that parts were not interchangeable with the older models parts are thus much harder come for the later models parts general are not too difficult find one time whitney carried some stuff including brand new not remfg long block either kharman ghia hmm that spelling looks hosed will next project mark
rec.autos	for hail damage record article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes integra was hit hard the hailstorm austin the insurance company cut check for deductible last week this record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has that guy dell computer had his miata totalled that would about john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right life liberty and the pursuit happiness does not attempt guarantee that everyone will happy
rec.autos	new talon article there such thing the new eagle talon heard from freind that the new talons have been released this true and what are the differences between the and any opinions would appreciate any replies and would also prefer mail thanks hasit mehta university rochester primus sucks uhura rochester edu believe captain crunch for the frizzle fry
rec.autos	changing oil self hanguyen megatest com nguyen writes article apr progress com damelio progress com stephen amelio writes bmoss grinch sim com brent woody moss writes you could take screw driver and hammer and start punching holes various locations and when some black slippery stuff starts pouring out then you would know that the oil drain plug nearby within foot two anyway close the holes with toilet paper before refileing with oil though you have refill the engine with oil wow wonder can get engine last more than first oil change don forget punch holes the radiator too will spray nice refreshing water the engine and keep nice cool steve gee you really make confused what radiator where located what does look like will release any radiation since sounds like radia tion genera tor when you punch holes course releases radiation thats why your car goes faster when you punch the holes all that radiation gets your engine and gives pep scientific term you get more horsepower torque too you don know what torque are you can read mile long threads the subject but they are all wrong horsepower how much power horse can make pulling subaru and torque name invented craftsman for wrench steve
rec.autos	warning please read smn cybernet cse fau edu vlasis cybernet cse fau edu vlasis theodore writes tobias convex com allen tobias writes article apr virginia edu ejv virginia edu erik vel this happened about year ago the washington beltway snot nosed drunken kids decided would really cool throw huge rocks down cars from overpass four five cars were hit there were several serious injuries and sadly small girl sitting the front seat one them was struck the head one the larger rocks don recall she made but think she was comatose for month and doctors weren holding out hope that she live what the hell happening this great country ours can see boyhood pranks peeing off bridges and such but pound rocks has our society really stooped this low erik velapold society have known coming apart the seams the basic reason that human life has been devalued the point were killing someone big deal kid see hundreds murderous acts can abort children demand and kill the sick and old will why surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear life cheap well people fortunatly unfortunatly only the experiencing the devaluation human life among developed nations american but was raised europe where the worst thing that can happen somebody get his car broken into have his pocket picked slaves russian refugees cource there will some nutcases but thats extremely rare greece you can walk through any neighborhood any time during the night without even worrying germany you can walk the sidewalks and not even look behind your back the sanitation crews that clean the streets sparkling cleen whoever you have been there you know what saying dont have any easy answers but nation some selfcritisism might get somewhere course these postings sould soc culture but reduce crime here mean less car insurance rates thus could spend more money modifing our cars now posting rec autos tech revelant vlasis theodore software engineer idb mobile communications sig under development remember this happening the through michigan and ohio several years back group guys old beater would rear end car usually out state canadians you stop and they smack you with bat least they didn kill you for the sake car think the cops put out decoys and this calmed down for while vlasis are you safe walking through germany you are refugee
rec.autos	monthly posting buick grand national regal type mailing list monthly posting regarding the buick grand national regal type mailing list this list for owners and other parties interested the buick grand nationals regal types gnxs and other turbocharged regals discussions include technical information and parts sources particular emphasis given performance enhancements and racing join ask about the mailing list contact gnttype request srvsn monsanto com scott keller the agricultural group monsanto company sekell monsanto com wch packet wch pfx usa keeper the buick grand national regal type mailing list
rec.autos	ignition kill just wanted thank all the netters out there who either posted response sent mail regarding ignition kill question now that know how simple procedure looks like paying local pep boys visit this weekend mik
rec.autos	sho clutch question grinding noise article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes article ldu news rich bnr jcyuhn crchh nosubdomain nodomain james yuhn writes that not the clutch you hearing its the gearbox early shos have lot what referred gear rollover noise you can generally have one the first shos built and mine doesn make this noise geez wharfie you have difficult mine was built december which qualifies pretty dang early and most certainly grinds away jim
rec.autos	kubelwagen the answer your question sort volkswagen had much less robust version this army vehicle out the early thereabouts was called the volskwagen thing and was course convertible havent seen many around then now good luck mik
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes article hhgm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk side both sides some tacky luxury cars some aren fake you talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car sport one personally would love have bird with continental kit and the supercharged that one the most beautiful cars ever built imho for lincoln continental could find one sad part that edsel ford designed and look the abortion they named after him ain justice okay admit looks nice the bird previous owner and thunderbirds biased anyway
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes article hhgm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes article innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes big aftermarket business almost cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes how much people are willing pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk side both sides some tacky luxury cars some aren fake you talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car sport one personally would love have bird with continental kit and the supercharged that one the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto mount the spare the rear the car but was hardly the first car sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common early automobiles both and foreign right the thirties both buick and packard had two spares mounted wells the front fenders course that was back when the front fenders were long enough provide room there were couple other marques that did this well but memory fades ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say better but say ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes long time motorcyclist have never understood what posessed auto builders put delicate controls which must used with skill and finesse like clutches and brakes the floor why not hand control much much easier the early days neither these functions had power assist only legs had enough strength activate them since then been traditional and people would have hard time getting used anything else well where exactly would you put hand clutch and brake motorcycle easy the handlebars have very limited range turning steering wheels the other hand turn around and around and around which fine for electrical relays like your cruise control and airbag but how many you want lose your clutch and brake due short circuit shades the edsel they had pushbuttons the steering wheel hub that controlled the auto tranny was very disconcerting shift into reverse when turning corner and the wires shorted there are workarounds but there really reason use hand power car clutch brakes and lightening them the point that they are finesse controls suitable for hand use would increse the mechanical complexity substantially look power brakes and non power brakes for example saw experimental car that had joystick instead steering wheel that about useless imho another automotive oddity separate keys for trunks doors and ignitions why earth would you want this know don want separate trunk key for security reasons gives totally separate lockable container for door and ignition ehhh the same key guess james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	warning please read article apr convex com tobias convex com allen tobias wrote society have known coming apart the seams the basic reason that human life has been devalued the point were killing someone big deal kid see hundreds murderous acts can abort children demand and kill the sick and old will why surprised when some kids drop lbs rocks and kill people they don care because the message they hear life cheap think this getting little overheated highway robbers have been part life since the middle ages least human nature look history through rose colored glasses but random acts violence have been ceaseless part our heritage overall life better now than ever was then just that random individual acts violence have never been historically significant and record keeping the past was never good enough retain them all steve wall
rec.autos	chevy sprint article wfnmbjg wboe andrew cmu edu srinagesh gavirneni andrew cmu edu writes have chevy sprint with and doors odometer turned and the sensor light started blinking went the dealer and said was maintenance light saying need change the oxygen sensor said changed every but since bought the car when had don know the same thing happened and quoted for the part and install the part cost outside but the mechanic went could not fix saying the sensor placed too deep the engine parts suggested wait till malfunctions before anything anyone out there owns chevy sprint want know how they got their oxygen sensors changed also did you face any problem with fixing without the dealer help also what are the results the oxygen sensor malfunction any help would greatly apprecisted thanks nagesh have owned sprint from the beginning and that sensor light comes every let you know time for check when that light goes just take the delaer tell them that time and they work for hou and you pay for parts and for labor ahh what they get for labor currently have about sprint and all the times took for service never say the payment sheet anything about the replacement the oxygen sensor what the heck oxygen sensor far know have never had that thing replaced car and the car purring like kitten now don have mother nature does that for and that might have something with but still never heard oxygen sensor the only major service job have had car besides getting the tires replaced you want call that service job was getting the rotor distributor and gasket replaced and that was all done within the past months what have good tune let them replace what ever they need pay the bill about and home and don worry about the car for another just remembered something that little sensor light bothers you the fuse box right below the turn signal lever against the dash there swith the right side flip that switch and the light will off that that little light won annoy you can find look the car manuel hope that have helped little and good luck with the oxygen sensor thomas mail address give army west point tjz zeus tamu edu graduates and win battle give handful texas aggies creator mot power and win war gen george patton
rec.autos	electronic odometers was used bmw question article news duke edu klg mookie duke edu kim greer writes was wondering anyone can shed any light just how that these electronic odometers remember the total elapsed mileage what kind memory stable reliable enough non volatile enough and independent enough outside battery power last say years more the life vehicle amazed that anything like this could expected work for this length time especially light all the gizmos work with that are doing good work for months without breaking down somehow from thomsom has timekeeper clock and bytes nvram which has lithium battery backup the battery has life years poweroff operation installed car could left powered continuously and not draw much current the battery would only used when your auto battery was dead had been removed side question how about the legal ramifications selling used car with replaced odometer that starts over miles after say actual miles looks like fraud would fairly easy for the price new odometer you can say has however many miles you want tell the buyer has california they have line the transfer ownership form which states that the odometer mileage correct incorrect you are required fill what you know guesstimate the correct mileage you lie this form and are caught you can prosecuted and the buyer can sue you for the value the mileage differential faster horses younger women older whiskey more money
rec.autos	aftermarket units les bartel comments sorry can help you with your question but have comment make concerning aftermarket units have frost king frost temp forget which aftermarket unit cavalier and quite unhappy with the fan noisy and doesn put out much air will never have aftermarket installed any vehicles again just can trust the quality and performance after this experience les let add had installed the ford garage and did not work well the that was installed the factory pickups identical mine have talked other people that have had the same result don know this just probable with ford what ernie smith agree never have the dealer add anything your car you want make sure factory installed honda maybe excluded many can bought with installed the factory but think maybe they actually use all the needed parts for true factory install when they put one bigger radiator etc are designed properly for this the place anyway point the dealer installed won anywhere near good factory and the service bums will mess your car when installing scratches screwdriver holes seats parts not reinstalled correctly with all the screws etc know guy who has been service manager dealer for years said never have dealer add anything your car except maybe floormats
rec.autos	master cylinder thanks everyone who responded honda accord break question does seem that the master cylinder bad will have mechanic double check and sure isn something simpler and cheaper first but from your responses sounds like very likely the master cylinder thanks everyone joni
rec.autos	wanted opinions was wondering anyone out net land have any opinions mgs general know they are not the most reliable cars around but summer approaching and they are convertibles interested but any opinions mgs would appreciated thanks dave dave kai chui chu dept elec comp eng concordia university voice maisonneuve fax montreal quebec canada email davec ece concordia
rec.autos	another taurus sho question article apr reed edu rseymour reed edu writes the taurus sho for those who can get straight super high output not sho show has yamaha dohc valves sho having spoken technical staff from ford many times can assure you that internally ford this car always called the taurus show just the show long sound still refer the however because sounds better assume many purist fans and owners prefer using the ford lingo tim gardner
rec.autos	the kuebelwagen article mentor purdue edu thwang mentor purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but forgot how spell after series exams and hand reference here still possible get those cute wwii jeep wanna replica would great think tkh the thing kubelwagen lookalike still manufactured mexico and possibly south america good luck importing one they probably don meet safety and pollution requirements there are mechanics and junkyards which specialize they might helpful for finding thing unless the wwii enacters have grabbed them all the wwii kubelwagen was the german equivalent the jeep but was not wheel drive one display the patton museum fort knox kentucky also the rare schwimwagen amphibious version full scale dioramas highly recommended frank reid ucs indiana edu
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come with several substitutes for you don hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that the people who stand rake that per retrofit per automobile have mounted organized campaign squash those substitutes out existence not ban them altogether very shaky technical grounds best outright lies worst now not saying you wrong because know that the substitutes exist but this sounds lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep all from getting mark
rec.autos	are there any honda groups are there any honda groups out there especially ones that deal with preludes tom spencer
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article hqj unix amherst edu bhtulin unix amherst edu barak tulin gives forth just started reading this thread today forgive has already been mentioned but what was the deal with renault putting the horn the left hand turn signal stalk was button the end where the washer button would the wiper washer stalk could the frenchies not figure out the wiring through the steering wheel what had alliance for long time was comfortable but sluggish car got very used the horn the stalk after couple months worth getting used after bought next car chevy took for ever get used the horn the steering wheel again jim grey jwg acd acd com the irons
rec.autos	rush was too fast previous article crh regent technik muenchen dbp christian huebner says brad buck viewlogic com bradford kellogg writes think talking about different form rush evidently fun terrified but hey you want that kind rush try bobsledding you may only get but makes car feel like stroll the park why should good driver terrified mph the only thing fear going are drivers who switch the left lane without using either rear view mirror flashers doing ain rush for but fun and get where want much faster but one point you are quite right you are terrified you should better not drive that fast you hazard others btw before you flame read mail address know what talking about live germany chris crh regent technik muenchen not flame just point scared here not because feel car couldn handle but because exactly what you said drivers who are stupid like the ones who are doing also and they pull right behind you maybe car lengths yeah real smart this scares cities when can see enough the car make recognizable they are following too close and when see them doing this and reading newspaper sigh this why america has speed limits our drivers are too dumb realise that reading the paper should done breakfast work not their car thoughts drew
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes relates experience similar mine then comes the part wish could have videotaped out the front door the sales manager shouts across the entire showroom customers and all ahead you deserve buy nissan friend bought sentra this kind behavior what was shocked experience for crying out loud how these turkeys think they can talk customers this way and still stay business again don expect sales people bow scrape and grovel presence but sure don expect abused either was very surprised the way the sales people talked and other negotiating sessions overheard neighboring sales cubicles evidently their success rate high enough that they continue business this way there must lot people out there who are easy intimidate the other hand not sure about the one price haggling approach that saturn and other are starting use guess their fixed price fair maybe the best approach your homework before you find out the invoice prices the car add reasonable profit for the dealer offer them that price and stick they get abusive just leave then don let them try screw you after the deal agreed mark
rec.autos	braindead drivers who don look ahead article apr cbnewsd att com hhm cbnewsd att com herschel mayo writes well guess know for sure what meant and this don know where you drive but around here freeways are often clogged solid with large packs semis trucks and cars all descriptions when close one these rolling clusterf the highway have desire add vehicle this rolling accident looking for place happen there were any way pass would passing myself however can posted before all takes blown tire some moron tramping the brakes turn this pack into cloud shredded metal flying glass and burning vehicles want maintain enough free space between myself and this mess least have minimal chance avoid mass crash that means maintaining clear space between and however there end shortdriving morons who are dying pass they can add themselves and their car the bodycount that wouldn bother much except that after letting enough these morons pass and glue themselves the pack ahead interval filled trying back off further does not work because the road behind has filled trapping car right into ever increasing pack now there was any slight possibility that there was lane open ahead glad move over but there usually way hell that anybody going anywhere block the would passers not only for own good but theirs well even though they are often too stupid realize just comment don like when people decide what good for you think you going decide anything for you better carrying badge and gun who made you capable determining there way hell that anybody going anywhere why you find necessary add the problem instead just minding your own business someone minding their own business will give them all the room they want and try make things easy for them even letting them front they ask politely with directional the other hand someone like you decides they want block and general asshole you can bet your ass that make life miserable possible for you long doesn affect anyone else who minding their own business they have phrase describe someone like you self appointed traffic police just mind your own business and stay the right lane where you belong rule philosophy don feel particularly sorry when somebody gets offed his own stupidity but does worry when some idiot position cash chips too mayo mustang bob pitas ush bpita ctp com ned epping cambridge geddy lee yyz disclaimer these opinions are mine obviously since they end with sig
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr rtfm mlb gwalker rtfm mlb grays walker writes why crawl under the car all have machine got for boat that pulls the oil out under suction through the dip stick tube does excellent job and moving the suction tube around you can get more old oil out than using the drain plug think paid marine the oil goes into steel gal can wait until cools and decant into your favorite device use soft drink bottles easy take them down the local oil recycle center yeah suppose you could that but then you don get the broken knuckles the rust your eyes the oil bath and the burns from the exhaust mean come steve
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr news brandeis edu andyh chaos brandeis edu andrew huang writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus acs ohio state edu steven orlin writes take the electrodes the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one each earlobe then symmetrically insert fingers each the spark plug boots cheating guys both hands must used have just couple questions about this technique first what firing order should use start with pointer finger pinky left hand right and secondly have cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions andy how about your two big toes and while you why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck out from there with your mouth and then spit out domain bobml msd measurex com bob lagesse senior software engineer uucp uunet mxmsd bobml measurex management systems division voice kemper meadow drive fax cincinnati ohio usa
rec.autos	arctic wheels auto show want only two things from this world plymouth and small opec nation with which fuel this would good and just thing car smashers can just home and sulk jacques brouillette manufacturing engineering
rec.autos	opel owners news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking friend has one sitting his yard really nice condition body wise but transmission has seized him hasn run for while does anyone have any info these cars the engine compartment looks really tight work but fine shape and quite interested thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader sounds lot more like opel guess that this the same chassis the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily wrong think the later kadett were sold here buick opels craig think the manta the european name for the pretty sure that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the just early mid manta chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area bzzt the manta was two door sedan the had engine was sometimes referred opel manta are also hot and fun cars too mliggett silver ucs indiana edu mliggett iugold bitnet junk collector toys kid antiauthoritarian and fan frogs iguanas and other herps
rec.autos	aftermarket exhausts for bmw the process looking for half decent aftermarket sport exhaust for bmw far have found pacesetter exhaust for and ansa exhaust for canadian funds was wondering anyone could tell anyhting about either these exhausts any other possible exhausts that may interested main priorities are decent horse power increase and nice low note along with that added power was also thinking looking into both remus and leistritz exhausts has anyone got anything say about these mainly looking for the muffler only but anyone can find good deal whole kit would willing after that also would like know how much these would cost the states please mail back you have any information mike welker
rec.autos	waxing new car just had chrysler painted was told refrain from waxing and leave out the sun supposedly this let the volatiles escape from the paint over month can smell feet away hot day and lets any slight irregularites the surface flow out the paint remains little soft for while
rec.autos	mbenz series passat boss interested new series mercedes benz wagon does anyone have any testimonial evidence and strong opinions this car line particularly would like hear about power manual only reliability feel and any unusually good bad features the line she currently drives passat and being plagued its electrical problems the dealer claims there nothing wrong even though the doors have habit locking and unlocking them selves while you are driving down the road the automatic shoulder restraints also like move back and forth you move along she does not have the new larger engine and quite dissatisfied with its lack power the wagon would have have more power and peculiar problems such the passat electrical system she also considering saab add some letters any comparisons between the line and the mercedes would helpful price not impediment jeremy corry churchill claimed the traditions jcorry erasure emory edu the navy are rum mutiny and sodomy opinions are own but probably got them from someone else
rec.autos	van step van accessory help hello netters would like find out information about device that used vans and trucks this device step that hooks onto the tire and folds for storage seen this device tnn shady tree mechanic would like know good product and would also like the price and address where can purchase this product thanks george chan email syst ryevm ryerson
rec.autos	importing volvo there was article business week not more the weeks ago this very subject fact the volvo was one the cars they laid out example for andrew page warrior poet decision and effort the archer and arrow mac consultant the difference between what are macintosh and dsp technology and what want
rec.autos	sho and article qehi ork armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes give you few reasons neither car was designed turn those speeds neither car was designed stop quickly from those speeds safety mechanisms were not designed for impacts those speeds uncontrolled environment leads unpredictable circumstances where you might need turn stop with notice you any chance own sho have access one such that you would have any idea what designed for how handles just wondering tom pickett tpickett auspex com compuserve com sho goze
rec.autos	noisy engine article vofinn usenet dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are writes are there any owners motor head gurus out there that know why engine sounds noisy the engine noisy the best times but not even nice nose one those very ugly noises assuming yours non turbo the gruffness characteristic large inline that doesn have balance shafts guess toyota didn care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself automatically cross out any car from consideration recommendation which has inline larger than liters and balance shafts good rule thumb keep mind you ever want halfway decent engine the noise really bugs you there nothing else that you can except sell and get eliot
rec.autos	warning please read article joit bcstec boeing com neil bcstec boeing com neil williams writes long the subject several years ago myself and two others were riding the front toyota pickup heading south interstate north seattle someone threw rock overpass and hit our windshield not accident sure was impossible get the overpass quickly see who did figured was kids reported and left couple years ago happend again and killed guy company was his mid fourties and left behind wife and children turned out there was reformatory for juviniles few blocks away they caught the year old that did they put cover over the overpass what else could they execute the juvi the grounds the reformatory required attendendence the rest the inmates soon possible after the incident and quick sure trial quite serious cause and effect nothing else will ever make dent don think over forget this story neil williams boeing computer services bellevue neither tom mackey tomm voodoo boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm box seattle
rec.autos	warning please read article neilson apr seoul mpr neilson seoul mpr robert neilson writes sorry for the auto content but that why low abiding citizens should have the power protect themselves and their property using deadly force necessary anywhere threat imminent steve heracleous you have the power steve you can why don you why don you shoot some kids who are tossing rocks onto cars make sure you good job though don miss cause like they have big rocks and take from those kids are mean that absolutely correct they have streak meanness that runs much deeper and stronger than anything ever experienced even during the height the racial struggles absolutely convinced that there are kids out there today that have concept right and wrong but have the human intelligence which turning them into the greatest predators that have ever walked the earth they will prevail unless the rest humanity decides that their best interest stand against these feral humans and for individuals start taking some responsibility for their own protection state which the individuals turn the authorities and police for protection the police and government soon composed the very feral humans that they originally sought protection from gee guess you touched hot button better cool off somewhere tom mackey tomm voodoo boeing com boeing computer services uunet bcstec voodoo tomm box seattle
rec.autos	impala going into production does that mean that they gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air
rec.autos	warning please read mchaffee dcl nxt michael chaffee writes significantly less than the value many automobiles and for those who will argue that the animals out there stealing cars and everything else not mention committing completely senseless acts violence such rape cannot valued terms money because they are human beings submit that they are not human beings jim callison think the right track and absolutely scratch car bothers more than the death any number scum all you feel the same way you just won admit when are people going realise that the mere fact that piece flesh moves and has the approximate shape human being does not itself mean that has rights
rec.autos	dirty diesels heard the diesels are considered cleaner burning than gas engines because the emit less carbon monoxide hydrocarbons and oxides nitrogen nox but they can put out lot particulate matter heard something about legislation being discussed clean diesel emissions there anything the works install scrubbers for diesels how about the feasibility installing them trucks and cars would any different than catylitic converter assume easier since removing particulate matter instead converting gasses let hear people opinions vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts
rec.autos	wife wants convertible aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes previous article dspalme mke com diane palme says nuet pts mot com keith nuetzman writes help wife has informed that she wants convertible for her next car vllyoak resun com jeff perry writes fyi just last week the pbs show motor week gave the results what they thought were the best cars for the convertible category the honda civic del sol achieved this honor own del sol and must vouch for the interior really looks snazzy the top off looks lot better person than the television that motorweek well needless say was smiling bit the time was over watch out for that darned convertible tan tho simply must inquire how can people honestly consider this car convertible does porsche have patent the targa name mean convertible means top down which the del sol certainly does not has the center that lifts out this what would term targa unless porsches was gonna sue for doing that know the rear window rolls down but still can hardly consider this car convertible yes however with the top off and the rear window down this car more like convertible than coupe think convertible with integrated roll bar like addition
rec.autos	what car this article apr wam umd edu lerxst wam umd edu where thing writes was wondering anyone out there could enlighten this car saw the other day was door sports car looked from the late early was called bricklin the doors were really small addition the front bumper was separate from the rest the body this all know anyone can tellme model name engine specs years production where this car made history whatever info you have this funky looking car please mail bricklins were manufactured the with engines from ford they are rather odd looking with the encased front bumper there aren lot them around but hemmings motor news ususally has ten listed basically they are performance ford with new styling slapped top brought you your neighborhood lerxst rush fan robert seymour rseymour reed edu physics and philosophy reed college nextmail accepted artificial life project reed college reed solar energy project soltrain portland
rec.autos	mazda with air good deal netters want know tax good deal for mazda how the performance review far mazda good buy please reply don read this group often thanks advance ravi ravi kiran puvvala the purpose education not merely ravi merlin dev cdx mot com the assimilation facts but blow all motorola codex boston the money ravi puvvala
rec.autos	opel owners article news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking friend has one sitting his yard really nice condition body wise but transmission has seized him hasn run for while does anyone have any info these cars the engine compartment looks really tight work but fine shape and quite interested thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader sounds lot more like opel guess that this the same chassis the kadett rather than the bigger manta but could easily wrong think the later kadett were sold here buick opels craig think the manta the european name for the pretty sure well the european manta and have entirely different bodies there little chance that they are the same the manta went through several generations the coupe version the ascona and was its time that the only kadett sold here were are the pontiac lemans think the not true the kadett has been and out the market over the years the lemans old kadett only the latest version craig just early mid manta different cars one looks like sports car the other coupe chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	for hail damage record article apr pencom com stecz pencom com writes article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes integra was hit hard the hailstorm austin the insurance company cut check for deductible last week this record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has that guy dell computer had his miata totalled that would about guess either had the top down the hail ripped through the top you could not worth hail damage miata body craig john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right life liberty and the pursuit happiness does not attempt guarantee that everyone will happy
rec.autos	dealer cheated with wrong odometer reading need help here story bought car about two weeks ago finally can get hold the previous owner the car and got all maintanence history the car between and the instrument pannel the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset zero therefore the true meter reading the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing the mileage the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told anything about that important story hope that can return the car with full refund think this possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will appreciated thanks yongje washington edu
rec.autos	insurance question about buy new car and finance some since paid cash for the last car bought did not have worry about whether not had good amount insurance because bank loan just put the amount that wanted not what bank would have wanted friends are telling that banks require some kind insurance the car protect since collateral loans this true can that insurance gotten part other insurance assume don have pay dealer for extra insurance over regular car insurance correct hear about accident health type insurance the dealers and pretty sure these are just money makers for them just want verify that don have buy these all any other types extras what have pay for car tax license anything else ellen
rec.autos	said nissan altima best seller boyle cactus org writes article dql menudo edu thang harebell egr edu chin heng thang writes recently saw for the altima which says that the best seller for the past months that true too was puzzled this obvious untruth what think going that nissan claims that the altima the best selling new car namelplate the think have this near verbatim lee iaccoca statistics dept would have been proud that sentence what they mean think that all totally new models cars never sold before any form the altima the best seller thereby eliminating accord taurus etc this from the same people who make the claim that our minivan outsellin theirs implying that the nissan quest murcury villager are out selling the chrysler mini vans not only this not true all but was stupid claim make the commercial was part the introduction campaign for the vans kind bold statement make when you haven even sold one yet and thought buick and oldsmobile where bad shame you nissan and mercury any other interpretations craig does anyone has anyhting regarding the cars sold for the past months tony
rec.autos	rec autos there just something disconcerting about the name this group
rec.autos	opel owners the way what people think about the opel calibra
rec.autos	too fast article qqv usenet ins cwru edu aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes previous article callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison says article usenet ins cwru edu aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says that shows how much you know about anything the brakes the sho are very different inch forget discs all around vented front the normal taurus setup smaller discs front drums rear one saw had vented rears too was lot course the sales man was fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told they were magnesium more believable but still crap since uch cheaper and just good tend agree tho that this still doesn take the sho standard for running regular basis the brakes should bigger like take look the ones the corrados where they have braking regulations well let see bird has computer controlled adjustable suspension wheel abs disks vented front rear point rears also vented belts sturdy passenger compartment aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change supercharged wheel independent suspension plus limited slip differential with top speed excess mph and rides rated tires have yet find any other speed rating that standard not why not james really hate this but try reading the damn posts then you shouldn done try answering the damn question well aware the fact that there was mention the there never was bird mentioned the discussion was about sho and stangs not being spec not know about birds only know that the specs quoted for the sho previous poster sounded little anemic for say that was snuff this does not any way disencourage from wishing own one nor does make bad car merely means that think ford could have added that extra bit safety and tossed larger brakes the wheels are plenty large enough for them fit memory serves right which may very well not and the motor plenty powerful enough need well point was that the and the sho both have very similar characteristics front and rear disks abs the sho high output wheel independent suspension very good aerodynamics point harness fat rubber and mph top speed one them standard and think the but the other isn then why that flamage just curiousity james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences another user recently requested info about the shadow sundance cars but haven seen any public responses what are people experiences with these cars daryl daryl biberdorf gjm biberdorf tamu edu sola gratia sola fide sola scriptura
rec.autos	changing oil self bobml mxmsd msd measurex com bob lagesse writes long silly discussion deleted and while you why bother with removing the drain plug when you could remove the dipstick instead and suck out from there with your mouth and then spit out this suggestion isn far fetched sounds years ago another time and place used oil changes boats powered automotive engines many cases there was way get any sort tray under the oil pan because was boxed the bottom the hull and various floation chambers each side and you did get something there you spill all the oil out for sure trying get back out again used small pump powered electric drill suck the oil out the dipstick hole there was long thin hose the inlet side designed fit down the dipstick tube and another thicker shorter hose the outlet side that you put into any convenient container sure these gadgets are still available from marine hardware suppliers you want one mart molle computer systems research institute university toronto toronto canada
rec.autos	warning please read article jgc ajj dove nist gov keys starchild ncsl nist gov lawrence keys writes this isn anything new back was driving under high overpass night san diego when caught glimpse someone the overpass passed under rock slammed against the metal between the winshield and right front window girlfriend was the seat next called the police from the next exit but doubt they were found about five years ago san diego someone was put into coma from brick being thrown through his sunroof was driving and subsequently crashed don think ever came out the coma and haven heard anything about for couple years know that this isn the group for but since you brought does anyone have any idea why they haven bombed the waco cult probably because there are many children there also the minor fact that other than defending themselves from some people attacking them they haven threatened attacked anyone outside the compound years being promiscuous religious nut does not constitute grounds for mass murder koresh and his followers sorry for posting this this group but thought the previous post needed rebuttal you follow this portion please cross post and direct follow ups more appropriate newsgroup boyd johnson nosc spectra com johnson san diego california intermittent newsfeed best and only selected groups opinions certainly don match those employer
rec.autos	used bmw question article apr edu rpaturi eng edu ravi writes dying get the answer for the pricing polocy dealer here san jose california moved caal from you moved from alabama california sympathies year model description milage price black looks good manual cassette sun roof white same aboove make sure that they have all maintenance records oil should changed every months the mileage the cars fine sure that these have the valve engine the valve bmw name only didn you have line for jump phil mueller pamuelle ingr com pamuelle ingr com ama dod suzuki bandit bmw
rec.autos	saturn puzzled its pricing article mar magnus acs ohio state edu jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes article pcgv armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes because want get the lowest price possible called capitalism have news for you capitalism the practice maximizing profits same difference you lower your costs you increase your profits personally not all bothered the saturn pricing scheme don want pay much they selling for can buy different car from different dealer and they get nothing that competition for you the dealer can competitive charging what they and making that kind profit that capitalism best and more power rather have the consumer dictate what things will cost not the dealers sorry but neither dictates the cost negotiation whether front honda dealership all out dickering war more removed larger economic scale saturn can sell price the price drops the company stops building them remains negotiated value controlled market forces think that the consumer controls price ludicrous the consumer controled price then cars would free and one would build cars regards charles within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	may build toyota badged car this appeared today the the japan economic journal reported plans build toyota badged car the for sale japan bruce macdonald corporate communications yesterday confirmed that president and ceo jack smith had meeting recently with tatsuro toyoda president toyota this meeting the two discussed business opportunities increase exports japan including further component sales well completed vehicle sales parts sales the two presidents agreed conceptually pursue arrangement whereby would build toyota badged right hand drive vehicle the for sale toyota japan working group has been formed finalize model specifications exact timing and other details
rec.autos	changing oil self article apr news brandeis edu andyh chaos brandei edu andrew huang writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu sorlin magnus ohio state edu steven orlin writes take the electrodes the amp ohm volt meter whatever and connect one each earlobe then symmetrically insert fingers each the spark plug boots cheating guys both hands must used have just couple questions about this technique first what firing order should use start with pointer finger pinky left hand right place your hands flat table and arrange the firing order from left right and secondly have cyl and there are two cylinders unaccounted for any suggestions well you have friends don you cylinders might more excitement than one person can take
rec.autos	bmw series for article qll innp uwm edu qazi csd csd uwm edu aamir hafeez qazi writes from article eabu dialin slip nts uci edu eabu orion oac uci edu alvin there going bmw could isn the liter six supposed enlarged liters the not too distant future makes sense since the new mercedes benz engines from nothing between btw beleive the numbers those engines are and respectively the one upmanship might induce bmw create larger six also the has lagged behind the for some time wrt sure the bavarians wouldn want shown the schwabians those engines haven been released over here yet daniel
rec.autos	warning please read article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes hear someone screwing with car setting off the alarm and taunting come out you can damn sure that colt delta elite will also coming with not the screwing with the car that get them shot the potential physical danger they taunting like that very possible that they also intend rob and other physically harmful things here houston last year woman heard the sound someone her garage she went investigate with gun her hand she found guy the process stealing her bicycle she quite reasonably asked him stop refused began taunting her and the woman was quoted the police report told ahead and shoot him did the moron survived and charges were filed against the woman
rec.autos	rush was too fast why should good driver terrified mph the only thing fear going are drivers who switch the left lane without using either rear view mirror flashers doing ain rush for but fun and get where want much faster defense the drivers who are the right lane here the states people simply not expect when they are driving overtaken speed differential mph don think this because they are stupid course there are exceptions they are just programmed because the mph limit you the states when you look the rear view always calculate future positions cars based speed differential dont get wrong love drive the left lane fast but when overtake cars who are the right slow down tad bit were rely the judgement the other car recognize the speed differential would the stupid one btw one else around then for
rec.autos	squeekin windows consumer reports once wrote about the blazer that shook and rattled like tired taxi cab there one noise that expecially irritating the back window squeaks believe its because the whole tailgate assembly and window are not solid anyway has anyone had the same problem and have you found any fixes arlen martin microelectronics att attme stcarm
rec.autos	mazda just does not feel right article mxm msi umn edu mxm msi umn edu ram mohan writes mazda with about miles recently not get good feeling the road esp wet pavement when driving the car feels the car wandering and there grip the road the tires are the original ones and have threads them passes the penny head test had the shocks and struts and alignment checked and things are fine however feel like that dont have the grip the road and feel the car wandering esp turns any help this appreciated thanks two shots check the tires again you can see the wear bars you down problem area and some tires pass penny test between the bars that guide all your problem the wet call hydroplaning you may not have enough tread left channel water out from under the tire goes fishy you lifts off the road tires age particular soft tire compounds get harder you put them thru more heat cycles harder compounds don grip well soft ones effect very noticable tires that get very hot very often such competition but hits all tires bob benson
rec.autos	rush was too fast gwm spl spl loral com gary mahan writes why should good driver terrified mph the only thing fear going are drivers who switch the left lane without using either rear view mirror flashers doing ain rush for but fun and get where want much faster defense the drivers who are the right lane here the states people simply not expect when they are driving overtaken speed differential mph don think this because they are stupid course there are exceptions they are just programmed because the mph limit you the states when you look the rear view always calculate future positions cars based speed differential dont get wrong love drive the left lane fast but when overtake cars who are the right slow down tad bit were rely the judgement the other car recognize the speed differential would the stupid one btw one else around then for keep the good work guys afterall the cops need occupied with someone that lesser mortals like can left alone bhaskar orion uiuc edu
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time article drutx att com klf druwa att com franklinkl writes article hhgm constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr slcs slb com dcd houston geoquest slb com dan day writes article innb ctron news ctron com smith ctron com writes big aftermarket business almost cars come from the factory with vynal any more and any fake convertible job definitely came from some aftermarket place what amazes how much people are willing pay for bad taste how about those really ugly fake wheel compartments stuck onto the trunk side both sides some tacky luxury cars some aren fake you talking about the continental kit named after the lincoln continental the first car sport one personally would love have bird with continental kit and the supercharged that one the most beautiful cars ever built imho james the continental may have been the first modern era auto mount the spare the rear the car but was hardly the first car sport one various mounting techniques for rear mounting the spare were quite common early automobiles both and foreign the lincoln continental was the first car sport the continental kit the continental kit not confused with olde outside mounting bracket continental kit very specific ornament storage compartment the continental has neat trunk looks rather like laundry hamper imho james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	sho and article apr ganglion ann arbor david ganglion ann arbor david hwang writes article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes article chrissc netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes wagon which have heard somehow slightly faster than the coupe wagon has automatic slower could due the rear end ratio also usually automatics have different rear ends than manuals from limited experience anyways you have fun looking for the rear end gears sho the taurus front wheel drive vehicle went back and checked the article again the sho wagon quicker than the sho automatic but significantly slower than the real sho why anyone would order sho with automatic transmission beyond you can handle stick you should stick with regular taurus and leave the sho real drivers that not say that there aren real drivers who can use the stick disabled persons but they aren any position use sho anyway would willing bet that removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the mustangs camaros and the like cut down the number accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have business performance cars imho james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	this good price everybody will buy honda civic coupe the dealer ask for including installed but not including stereo tax registration fees live mexico don have time lot dealers and compare their prices the dealer mcallen this good price for that car not how much should pay for please mail asap you don want post thanks lot orlando pugliese opuglies mtecv mty itesm orlando pugliese instituto tecnologico estudios superiores monterrey depto informacion academica monterrey mexico ext
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences article qmq tinn tamsun tamu edu dlb tamuts tamu edu daryl biberdorf writes another user recently requested info about the shadow sundance cars but haven seen any public responses what are people experiences with these cars daryl they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will replaced next year with all new models
rec.autos	car buying story was christ another dealer service scam from article apr newsgate sps mot com markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger this kind behavior what was shocked experience for crying out loud how these turkeys think they can talk customers this way and still stay business again don expect sales people bow scrape and grovel presence but sure don expect abused either was very surprised the way the sales people talked and other negotiating sessions overheard neighboring sales cubicles evidently their success rate high enough that they continue business this way there must lot people out there who are easy intimidate couple months ago went dealership test drive car afterwards sat down discuss prices explained that wanted car just like the one drove but different color said could get one exactly like wanted from the dealer network within day then negotiated price and signed the deal next day get call explains that they goofed and they had neglected take into account price increase the last price increase had occurred over months prior visit still wanted the car would have fork over another alternative they would honor the price bought the car test drove which had been sitting around for months and had few miles said goodbye this was good example how they can lowball you and still cover their butts too bad more people don demand honesty these types dealers would longer business the next dealership went was straightforward and honest first thing the salesman said was lets see what you have for dealer cost and work out how much profit should make the deal went through with problems steve
rec.autos	electronic odometer article megatest com alung megatest com aaron lung writes not mistaken altering the odometer illegal furthermore surmise tough alter bmw odometer you got some the newer bmw have electronic odometers making even more tamperproof the cars mentioned series from the late the electronic odometer really mechanical drum type odometer that driven pulses from speed sensor the rear axle these pulses are converted into mechanical pulses that turn the odometer and speedometer way changing erasing eprom going change the mileage reading also means the odometer just easy hard change any other mechanical odometer the other hand bit easier disconnect the speed sensor and run the car with speedometer odometer reading simple switch will the job also will disable the speed limiter which will enable the car reach full speed alan peterman work qiclab scn rain com odd how get older the days are longer but the years are shorter
rec.autos	insurance says car totalled wednesday morning another driver decided illegally turn left front doing great damage car honda civic have yet pay off the car and the body shop says the insurance company wants total the car haven been able get touch with the person handling claim checked some things payout blue book retail loan value trade value could anyone give any advice what should could the insurance company does not give reasonable amount for the loss the car thanks james baker baker dfwvx dallas geoquest slb com
rec.autos	options that would great have list options that would useful they can existing options car things you like have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track mileage makes good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built mountings and power systems for radar detectors fitting that allows you generate household current with the engine running and plug ins the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free add regards charles within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	dumb options list the idea here list pointless options you know stuff you get car that has earthly use power windows add you wish regards charles within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	rush was too fast previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary mahan says why should good driver terrified mph the only thing fear going are drivers who switch the left lane without using either rear view mirror flashers doing ain rush for but fun and get where want much faster defense the drivers who are the right lane here the states people simply not expect when they are driving overtaken speed differential mph don think this because they are stupid course there are exceptions they are just programmed because the mph limit you the states when you look the rear view always calculate future positions cars based speed differential dont get wrong love drive the left lane fast but when overtake cars who are the right slow down tad bit were rely the judgement the other car recognize the speed differential would the stupid one just satiate curiosity why would this make you the stupid one seems everybody should aware enough what going you not need calculate the future position you need look your mirrors little more you glance around you will able tell how much faster than you the car going maybe not precisely but well enough know you should let him around before you try pass know what you are talking about about the other driver being startled because myself have been startled drivers cruising around mph when doin the problem though saw was not their fault for barreling around but fault for not paying the attention task hand that should have been oddly enough since the time happened around when had liscence for around haven been startled and been passed cars doing roughly twice the speed car another odd occurance the fact that this only seems happen long trips and drive along with them doesn happen all even the long trips adrenaline will that you had bad cop experiences with speeding anything over the limit adrenalizing for scared get caught maybe they should raise the limit can pay better attention just curious and otwo drew
rec.autos	squeekin windows arlen martin arm cbnewsm att com wrote consumer reports once wrote about the blazer that shook and rattled like tired taxi cab there one noise that expecially irritating the back window squeaks believe its because the whole tailgate assembly and window are not solid anyway has anyone had the same problem and have you found any fixes can relate this tried everything greasing every point etc grease the two cheap hinges the tailgate seems quiet down for time until the grease works out the hinges hinge pins appear made out penny nails another vibration seems get worse with age and that vibration the transmission gear has miles bought new treated very easily fast off road stuff can build chevies like they used ford explorers look nice until you look the price jim burrill
rec.autos	saturn pricing policy just ordered saturn after considering few imports frankly the saturn way doing business and service was very big plus hadn bought new car since bought honda back and was unbelieveably offended most salespeople met saturn was indeed very different made three different visits the dealer where bought car and was never pressured saturn also had the best after sales support and the fixed pricing made very easy for decide exactly what wanted buy another big selling point was running into mechanic the dealer been fixing imports for years and bought saturn based what seen and heard from his customers saturn also has good extended warranty program for year miles fully refunded you don use that works out actual cost based the year treasury rates using savings account rates more like the first three years also buys you free rental during any warranty work without counting against the refund mike
rec.autos	sho and article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr ganglion ann arbor david ganglion ann arbor david hwang writes article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes article chrissc netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes why anyone would order sho with automatic transmission beyond you can handle stick you should stick with regular taurus and leave the sho real drivers that not say that there aren real drivers who can use the stick disabled persons but they aren any position use sho anyway would willing bet that removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the mustangs camaros and the like cut down the number accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have business performance cars imho james have disagree with this have with and speed auto overdrive and really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability handle copious amount power live the dallas area and manual would much harder drive the traffic here now still lived out the sticks like used manual would more fun safety wise auto less distracting would hate have shifting gears while was trying ease into traffic the freeways here performance wise can hold own against any stock mustang camaro five speed all this imho robert loper infinity notion best contemplated robertll flopn dseg com warm bed texas instruments inc opinions are own not
rec.autos	too fast article qkon armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that what the sho slightly modified family sedan with powerful engine they didn even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes the sho are very different inch forget discs all around vented front the normal taurus setup smaller discs front drums rear your argument still boils down sho shouldn driven fast because jim frost say isn designed fast pffffftttttt you think you sure don pay attention postings damn straight you one those people who makes stuff and tries pawn off god own truth want lies can listen television the wharf rat
rec.autos	where can get new york taxi article ncrcan canada ncr tnelson ncrcan canada ncr tim nelson writes the older taxis were made the checker car company and would love have one the checker car company still business checker motors went out business hard get old checkers that are worth restoring since almost every one was fleet vehicle that was driven into the ground you can get body decent shape the mechanicals should all available somewhere checker used whatever parts were around for instance had chevy straight six and gmc truck radiator and ford rear mine the model that looking for the checker marathon actually you want checker special you can find one good luck sorry let mine
rec.autos	differences insurance companies rates considering buying new car called three insurance companies california get estimates asked for the same coverage and same deductibles most the companies charge you according your zip code others charge according your city anyhow gave the same zip code and city all three places here what found for integra aaa state farm allstate aaa non profit they said could also expect receive about back the end the year still there huge gap between all these companies state farm wants more than twice much allstate think should suspicious but never heard anybody else complain any comments thanks gregg kasten gregg stanford edu
rec.autos	honda accord brake problem joni ciarletta writes honda accord just hit the magic mile mark and now all sorts things are beginning bad the latest problem experiencing with brakes they still stop the car fine but once stopped completely brake pedal will sink another inches all itself feels really strange and worried brakes will quit working one these days checked brake fluid and the reservoir was full but the fluid itself looked really dirty like dirty oil called mechanic and told need new brake master cylinder which will cost whopping you are not alone honda accord with miles started showing the same behavior replaced the brake master cylinder myself took about hour and cost about sure beats paying have someone else wanted rebuild own master cylinder instead putting rebuilt one would have cost only for the rebuild kit the honda brake master cylinder easy get two bolts attach the engine compartment two brake lines enter the master cylinder the tricky part was that the brake lines were stuck tight craftsmen open end wrench rounded off the bolt heads had use vise grips loosen those suckers wow best invention since sliced bread after that was very easy bolt the new part place add new brake fluid and bleed the brakes this quite easy even for beginner local auto parts store had repair manual for the honda accord had detailed diagrams the master brake cylinder and step step procedure for replacing
rec.autos	options that would great have previous article parr acs ucalgary charles parr says list options that would useful they can existing options car things you like have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track mileage makes good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built mountings and power systems for radar detectors fitting that allows you generate household current with the engine running and plug ins the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free add power windows dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.autos	manual shift bigots now ego with regards shifting ability big anyone else but just ordered first car with auto trans wasn planning but after driving few was convinced things have changed since the days slip slide withe powerglide they shift better than there clutch wear out honda wanted for wagon last year got done for only costs about gas milage the highway and makes easier concentrate all the radios car oddly enough while two best friends both the auto industry here the motor city have switched wholeheartedly autos their wives insist manual shift envy braggadocio aside given today technology and the warranties they handing out the auto trans seemed like excellent choice call convert mike
rec.autos	saturn manual transmission problem article crdnns crd com cimjfg utica com writes after many trips the dealer who has admittedly been patient with they are admittedly going nothing about the dealer did however follow the bulletin and review proper shifing procedures with the owner next attempt satisfaction the customer number but from the first round doesn sound too hopeful surprised know local case where guy took his saturn back five times complain they hadn properly eliminated rattling noise saturn gave him new car call that number
rec.autos	too fast previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says article qkon armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that what the sho slightly modified family sedan with powerful engine they didn even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes the sho are very different inch forget discs all around vented front the normal taurus setup smaller discs front drums rear one saw had vented rears too was lot course the sales man was fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told they were magnesium more believable but still crap since uch cheaper and just good tend agree tho that this still doesn take the sho standard for running regular basis the brakes should bigger like take look the ones the corrados where they have braking regulations drew
rec.autos	sho and previous article moe dseg com robert loper says article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr ganglion ann arbor david ganglion ann arbor david hwang writes article unisql uucp wrat unisql uucp wharfie writes article chrissc netcom com chriss netcom com chris silvester writes why anyone would order sho with automatic transmission beyond you can handle stick you should stick with regular taurus and leave the sho real drivers that not say that there aren real drivers who can use the stick disabled persons but they aren any position use sho anyway would willing bet that removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the mustangs camaros and the like cut down the number accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have business performance cars imho james have disagree with this have with and speed auto overdrive and really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability handle copious amount power live the dallas area and manual would much harder drive the traffic here now still lived out the sticks like used manual would more fun safety wise auto less distracting would hate have shifting gears while was trying ease into traffic the freeways here performance wise can hold own against any stock mustang camaro five speed all this imho all disagree with your loved dallas rush hour stick detested the auto like did any other time the auto course dalls rush hours are nothing from what hear lived might different persuasion and just for the record rarely you shift gears when merging into traffic that what speeds are good for good through around most the time you can just wind out not going hurt anything and keeps the powerband anyway only shift into top gear when you are exceeding redline fairly rare unless you drive ferrari some such bet when you hit cruising speed where you feel comfortable when mother sitting the passanger seat complaining about how you wind her poor little engine way too just drew
rec.autos	dents car all you have turn the police like you would accident get report and send your insurance company and they will contact the other guys insurance company and they will have pay just they would accident they caused thus need court friend mine did this and got the money does work
rec.autos	ultimate awd vehicles article bcd ecs umass edu sylveste ecs umass edu writes before the became the was called the turbo quattro this model did come wagon very quick wagon very rare also mike sylvester umass yes saw turbo quattro wagon monday thought audi stopped selling wagons the after the this exactly the type vehicle would like own bet its price times car budget ron deblock rdb homxb att com that number rdb not letter bell labs somerset usa
rec.autos	legal car buying problems rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie writes article stratus swdc stratus com bob runway swdc stratus com bob hutson writes after agreeing terms signed the contract and drove home new car later that same night noticed that the terms the were different from the terms had agreed made the stupid mistake not checking everything the contract this all happened last saturday have heard that there cooling off law allowing three days reconsider the contract this true can anyone point the law the transaction happened the dealership matters this cooling off period applies only certain situations lik ewhen you are solicited home also think the cooling off period ends you actually accept the merchandise this were not the case any car buyer would have the right return slightly used highly devalued car days after buying yeah that the trick want buy new car have firend buy return one then and negotiate better deal pre owned used car however you agree some terms and then when about sign the dealer slips you contract with different terms and leads you believe that embodies the terms you verbally agreed that fraud there day limit restitution for fraud you may have sue and win get out this you will almost certainly have threaten sue john oswalt jao megatest com jao netcom com
rec.autos	legal car buying problems article apr chpc org rboudrie chpc org rob boudrie writes article stratus swdc stratus com bob runway swdc stratus com bob hutson writes after agreeing terms signed the contract and drove home new car later that same night noticed that the terms the were different from the terms had agreed made the stupid mistake not checking everything the contract this all happened last saturday have heard that there cooling off law allowing three days reconsider the contract this true can anyone point the law the transaction happened the dealership matters this cooling off period applies only certain situations lik ewhen you are solicited home also think the cooling off period ends you actually accept the merchandise this were not the case any car buyer would have the right return slightly used highly devalued car days after buying yeah that the trick want buy new car have firend buy return one then and negotiate better deal pre owned used car for discussion purposes only the other hand can proven possible the changed terms could thrown out the question will whether the agreement contains merger clause see ucc parol evidence talking about warranties then course ucc should looked but have little information that none can say anything conclusive daniel reitman the uniform commercial code protects the innocent purchaser but not shield for the sly conniver the blindly naive the hopelessly gullible atlas auto rental corp weisberg misc city civ
rec.autos	rush was too fast dont get wrong love drive the left lane fast but when overtake cars who are the right slow down tad bit were rely the udgement the other car recognize the speed differential would the stupid one just satiate curiosity why would this make you the stupid one seems everybody should aware enough what going you not need couldnt agree more that how should work people should also always see motorcycles too constantly scan behind have one those wink mirrors and two outside mirrors actually spend just much time checking six cops you know still get caught off guard every now and then maybe didnt word right the first time what was trying say was that you plan blow somebody very high speed differential and you assume you are safe because the guy sees you you are stupid course depends the circumstances have had some very scary instances when assumed this and dont think all the fault was the other guy now was going thats whole different story
rec.autos	dumb options list previous article parr acs ucalgary charles parr says the idea here list pointless options you know stuff you can get car that has earthly use fitting that allows you generate household current with the engine running and plug ins the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free add regards charles within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.autos	rush was too fast previous article gwm spl spl loral com gary mahan says dont get wrong love drive the left lane fast but when overtake cars who are the right slow down tad bit were rely the udgement the other car recognize the speed differential would the stupid one just satiate curiosity why would this make you the stupid one seems everybody should aware enough what going you not need couldnt agree more that how should work people should also always see motorcycles too constantly scan behind have one those wink mirrors and two outside mirrors actually spend just much time checking six cops you know still get caught off guard every now and then maybe didnt word right the first time what was trying say was that you plan blow somebody very high speed differential and you assume you are safe because the guy sees you you are stupid course depends the circumstances have had some very scary instances when assumed this and dont think all the fault was the other guy now was going thats whole different story can agree this because have both proved what ideally supposed happen isn always and even though rearely the one doing the passing don see where makes you stupid but agree that you think you are safe because the other guy supposed have been paying attention then yes you are just dumb the other maybe dumber hasta drew
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time from article news ysu edu yfn ysu edu john daker cup holders driving importantant enough undertaking ashtrays smokers seem think just fine use the road sure sorry but the absence cupholder not gonna discourage anyone from eating drinking the car let just put one anyway least they don have the further distraction trying not spill furthermore you are obviously not smoker cold day takes certain skill toss butt out cracked window without having wind deflect into the back seat also just cause some smokers use the window doesn mean all this reminds one pleasant feature the otherwise ergonomically hellish interior the alfa romeo milano you could ash your cigarette without even removing your hand from the wheel the tray was right there fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim these will agree are abominations right along with the fake continental spare tire kit sad watching those little old ladies try load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion the way most pitiful fake convertible top cadillac cimarron with all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone course there was that hyundai excel once saw laszlo csd csd uwm edu redhead afficionado extraordinaire and little canadia minister fine tobaccos cigaret brands sampled import luxury handrolling these opinions are not necessarily mine mine either can anyone bum sig
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all tim article mar uncavx unca edu bwillard uncavx unca edu wrote saab ignition floor actually this started great idea before steering column locks became popular saab installed gearshift lock put the car reverse remove the key and the car stays reverse also suppose you get into your car and thug comes and demands your keys gunpoint you hand them over gets and has idea where put the key this will run away perhaps shoot you anyway heard this actually happened somewhere btw hear that the saab new successor will have the ignition the console between the seats where belongs laszlo csd csd uwm edu redhead afficionado extraordinaire and little canadia minister fine tobaccos cigaret brands sampled import luxury handrolling these opinions are not necessarily mine mine either can anyone bum sig
rec.autos	said nissan altima best seller article innaft cronkite central sun com dbernard clesun central sun com writes too was puzzled this obvious untruth what think going that nissan claims that the altima the best selling new car namelplate the think have this near verbatim lee iaccoca statistics dept would have been proud that sentence note that the corolla prism are also new designs but hey are not new nameplates guess nissan doesn even sell many altimas toyota does corollas there would nameplate qualifier but waiiiiiit isn nissan officially registering the car far government paperwork goes nissan stanza altima avoid costly and lengthy paperwork read this the net while ago and someone actually may have said there little stanza logo the altima somewhere you can have both ways spiros spiros triantafyllopoulos kocrsv delcoelect com software technology delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo post therefore armm
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all tim article apr exu ericsson exulox exu ericsson lasse ohlsson tdt writes article cas org sdm cas org writes imho the dumbest thing ever did copying the japanese was moving the dimmer switch from the floor the lever controlling the turn signal cruise the federal government has mandated that all passenger cars model year return the floor mounted dimmer switch study the national highway traffic safety administration nhtsa has found that unacceptable percentage after dusk collisions were the direct result unskilled drivers getting their left foot stuck the steering wheel ron gaskins reg koptsw delcoelect com automotive electronic systems delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo ron gaskins reg koptsw delcoelect com automotive electronic systems delco electronics hughes electronics kokomo
rec.autos	warning please read article agate berkeley edu anarres berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands kind teenagers who volunteer local agencies help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don read that much about violence against teenagers such george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying surrender with bulldozers the other hand think true without singling out teenagers for blame that violence more socially acceptable than used those who like discourage violence have plenty work with people all ages didn know george could drive bulldozer
rec.autos	toyota land cruiser worth response post about suv got several unsolicited recommendations check out the land cruiser despite its astronomical price the toyota dealer told cult car car good enough create passionate and loyal following there must something really extraordinary about all you land crusher cultists here your chance convert jonathan edwards edwards intranet com intranet inc based experience with the hard top jeep style model would definitely give new model consideration were the market the older models are very well built unless toyota lost its mind would assume until proven otherwise that the newer models have inherited some not all the qualities their ancestors two major differences the running gear that aware need study has solid front axle housing whereas the newer models have independant front suspension the solid axle theoretically stronger and more reliable than the newer model but only experience will tell the independant front suspension doubt compromise made satisfy the typical user who will never need real utility vehicle the second difference the type transfer case used the newer models not sure but think tioyota went full time all wheel drive system the older landcruisers have lock type both have their advantages and disadvantages paul hovnanian hovnania atc boeing com std disclaimers apply
rec.autos	car saftey important jnielsen magnus acs ohio state edu john nielsen writes article armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes tcorkum bnr trevor corkum writes figure that mph collisions into brick walls aren common enough for spend that much extra money for protection but there are lots low speed collisions that worry get into mph accident and you may reconsider been one and really scarey life something value more than car looks handeling consider insurance may not happen often but when does you sure glad you got safe car granted the tests aren perfect but much rather car that did well the test than car that did horribly you raise valid point but again tradeoff how much money you want spend for that kind protection you could buy volvo saab benz and get really good crash protection and other luxuries but you pay significantly more for case out the question because all those cars are beyond budget even high speed head collisions the most beneficial item you can have good old point seatbelt nowadays least the you get airbag you get point belt presumably you get added safety benefit there well that something certainly look for and which can had inexpensive cars course jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	best radar detector valentine troy sequent com troy wecker writes there question that the valentine has good range but not significant enough times expensive some the others the big win with the not its range but rather its directionality and multiple transmitter tracking which you later called gimmick conclusion disagree with since the detector incorporates multiple receivers not surprising that significantly more expensive while the added capabilities may not help you there added value for those who live areas where there are lot false alarms summary valentine way too expensive and not significantly better performer certainly call interesting but another person who thinks that the added value might coming too high cost very adequate radar detectors are available for less than half the cost and one them has suited rather well did more long distance travelling areas not familiar with probably consider getting the because additional information would useful discriminating false alarms jim frost jimf centerline com
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time vmcms csuohio edu writes article jus news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes laszlo csd csd uwm edu tyson nuss writes from article news ysu edu yfn ysu edu john daker fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim these will agree are abominations right along with the fake continental spare tire kit sad watching those little old ladies try load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion the way most pitiful fake convertible top cadillac cimarron with all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone course there was that hyundai excel once saw have seen cutlass supreme coupe with vinyl roof ditto taurus shoot the owners now before too late gets better seen them door escort chevy blazer and even chevy astro mini van mini van fake convertible top not something you want see just after eating and better yet there chevette town with wire crome wheels vinyl roof tacky paint job and continental spare showing the wire crome wheel within course scared look the inside and have only seen rolling down the road and too was glad hadn just ate bob martel lady luck must have been wonderful girl bob cua csuohio edu she never been friend mine vmcms csuohio edu the alan parsons project the lives chris ward dod don take life too seriously you can never come out alive
rec.autos	dealer cheated with wrong odometer reading need help article qvrnpinnnid shelley washington edu yongje hardy washington edu yong lim writes subject dealer cheated with wrong odometer reading need help here story bought car about two weeks ago finally can get hold the previous owner the car and got all maintanence history the car between and the instrument pannel the car has been replaced and the odometer also has been reset zero therefore the true meter reading the reading before replacement plus current mileage that shows mile difference comparing the mileage the odometer disclosure from the dealer never told anything about that important story hope that can return the car with full refund think this possible does anyone have similar experiences any comments will appreciated thanks something that happened south africa about year ago dealer sold mercedes with odometer reading kilometers lady turned out that the actual reading should have been court case followed because lady said she wouldn have bought car with that much dealer found quilty fined and had take back the car think you have case you can get sworn statement from the previous owner take the car back the dealer and threaten him something gerrit
rec.autos	car saftey important article apr bnr tcorkum bnr trevor corkum writes subject car saftey important was recently thumbing through the lemon aid new car guide what found was car would given recommended under the picture while few sentences later noting how driver and passenger were virtually guaranteed killed front end collision the most highly recommended small car the civic has the worst crash rating all the small cars listed there were many such cases great vehicles where you wouldn survive accident only safety not one the most important factors when buying car definitely safety important criterium for when buying car won buy small car like civic whatever great safety handling speed for seems that you would more dead small car than large car after accident gerrit
rec.autos	manual shift bigots matter interest does anyone know why autos are popular the while here europe they are rare just wondering john kissane motorola ireland ltd uucp uunet motcid glas kissanej mahon industrial estate internet kissanej glas rtsg mot com blackrock cork ireland
rec.autos	warning please read article agate berkeley edu anarres berkeley edu brian harvey writes rfelix netcom com robbie felix writes how about the thousands kind teenagers who volunteer local agencies help children seniors the homeless hear hear thanks robbie you also don read that much about violence against teenagers such george bush burying alive tens thousands unarmed iraqi year olds who were trying surrender with bulldozers didn know george bush could drive bulldozer kee ripe jim grey jwg acd acd com
rec.autos	water trunk probe article crn transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds the trunk friend ford probe every once while would have remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover the trunk would guess this usually happens after good thunder storm few this common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch had the same problem luckily had fixed under warranty think they replaced tail light gasket check with dealer known problem robert abbott abbott tps enet dec com
rec.autos	car cover for sale for sale fitted car cover specifically for top the line evolution fabric used for less than months the cover excellent condition rips cuts stains other blemishes has grommets for locking cable the color silver price will ship collect please contact wchutt monsanto com phone after cdt
rec.autos	opel owners article sxi news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes gibbonsa fraser sfu darren gibbons writes looking for information opel cars now you ask which model well the sad truth not entirely sure but two seater with roll over headlights hard top and really sporty looking friend has one sitting his yard really nice condition body wise but transmission has seized him hasn run for while does anyone have any info these cars the engine compartment looks really tight work but fine shape and quite interested thanks darren gibbons gibbonsa sfu this would the manta would not sold through buick dealers the mid the price leader chintan amin llama uiuc edu looks like miniature corvette would opel the headlights are flipped over pulling lever inside chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu sig under construction hard hat area
rec.autos	noisy engine previous article eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot says article vofinn usenet dec com tomacj opco enet dec com thunderbirds are writes are there any owners motor head gurus out there that know why engine sounds noisy the engine noisy the best times but not even nice nose one those very ugly noises assuming yours non turbo the gruffness characteristic large inline that doesn have balance shafts guess toyota didn care about little details like that when they can brag about the mid engine configuration and the flashy styling myself automatically cross out any car from consideration recommendation which has inline larger than liters and balance shafts good rule thumb keep mind you ever want halfway decent engine the noise really bugs you there nothing else that you can except sell and get eliot nice theory too bad the never came with four cylinder over liters more like did they were the nonturbo some such also understand that anyone using balancing shafts four cylinders must pay saab royalty for using their patented design like porsche drew
rec.autos	water trunk probe tszeto sneezy stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds the trunk friend ford probe every once while would have remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover the trunk would guess this usually happens after good thunder storm few this common problem yes this common problem the leaks occur through the seal the taillights unfortunately ford has this with most probes and does not have recall for very dissatisfying say the least where are the drain holes located for the hatch there drain holes that know used margine tub drain regretably waited three months was short cash and they wouldn fix under warrantee then paid dearly messed electrical system including balance motion sensor which located near the fuel shutoff the trunk this resulted passive restraints malfunctioning they would not retract ended paying about have the sensor replaced have the tail lights resealed they firts replaced the hatch gasket which insisted was not the problem they did not charge for that when proved right not mention the water damage the covers the trunk spare com partment and algae the taillights very annoying don let the water problem get fixed you pay more later considering how common problem hope every one complains ford thanks for any info tom tom szeto not those peanuts the ones the tszeto sneezy stratus com bottom ggnuuaahuuhh include disclaimer homer simpson
rec.autos	are bmw worth the price article ceylon gte com hhd harvey gte com horace dediu writes article pvjlninnckf daffy sps mot com shantanu risc sps mot com shantanu ganguly writes some comments good performance and mid and high speeds can obtained adjusting the top gear and final drive ratios contrary popular misperception number japanese cars have quite good performance from top gear problem with that the question they perform consistently all conditions roads winds and curves that speed and for hours end year after year without giving the driver white knuckles from experience the autobahns autostrade good touring car can easily distinguished its poise mph the best stay cruise control for hours seen the typical boy racer fiat try keep sure they hit the century mark but the wind blows the wrong way they change lanes and overpass they may fly right into guardrail the buffeting can severe enough make the hood bend tires can melt and pothole can kill many german cars are designed for this environment even they can seem get out their own way from stop light mercedes come mind particular and another design point fuel economy those speeds the germans gear the car for very good high speed efficiency typical turns almost stall good point have idea how either hondas will handle mph nor they reach however using high mph they are quite amenable long high speed drives done several mile trips civic with problems whatsoever the last big trip made was driving from new york texas remember driving miles day typically mph without any problems sure would have been more comfortable driving benz but white knuckles problems with winds and curves then there was the trip back from new orleans after mardi gras where were doing all the way houston problems both cars have surprising good fuel economy high speeds see difference between sustained mph and sustained mph the trip back from new orleans got about mpg integra quite mind you the engine revs almost the civic markedly better than the integra fuel economy miles down the road still get mpg mph driving can understand why these high scale european marquees are afraid design engines that can repeatedly revved near redline the low gears have been doing that for that last miles with lowly civic with detriment either the engine the clutch and getting excellent mpg boot call this engineering hack cover design deficiencies miles you still breaking high scale european marquee they typically are designed last miles per engine per chassis the record now over miles benz diesel and read about transmissions lasting miles speaking now now you can compare diesel with gasoline engine see enough bmws and gasoline mercs for sale that have miles them and advertise rebuilt engines honda was build accord for darn well expect the sucker last miles diesels they have very good efficiency the cost acceleration and are very popular all european cars diesel considered the green fuel from the smallest econoboxes the luxo barges again see difference mentality diesels the are considered slightly worse than useless and extremely dirty boot you can give them away ever got caught behind early sdl stop light not pleasant the newer are lot better though the diesel volvos and vws are probably the smelliest offenders for economy why should care gas cheap personally wouldn buy diesel car for any reason what does buy shantanu ganguly somerset motorola phone motorola inc mail drop fax william cannon drive austin email shantanu ibmoto com oakhill sps mot com
rec.autos	bimmer beamer mark monninger markm latium wrote although not direct response the referenced article just set the record straight beamers are bmw motorcycles bmw cars are bimmers please let get our terms straight actually some purists would argue that the only true bimmer round tail light mark back when was building round tail light they were bimmers was only when the red suspendered reganomics generated quiche eating yuppies got into the market that they became beamers and the hood ornaments started disappering andrei
rec.autos	car alarm info ungo box want get car alarm and thinking about getting ungo box does anyone out there have any knowledge experience with any these alarms how about price ranges for the different models are these good car alarms please email any responces cak lehigh edu chad chad
rec.autos	water trunk probe the rubber drain plugs under carpet mazda glc leaked like the ones are doing under your spare the probe tooke them out and put some silicone sealant them and put them back
rec.autos	viper article jnha murdoch acc virginia edu rmt faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes last night had dream that dad bought viper took out for test drive without his knowledge and had push all the way home just avoid ticket wierd dream wonder what means you probably should told you dad buy that car than your dream might come true
rec.autos	saturn pricing policy article vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu writes just ordered saturn after considering few imports frankly the saturn stuff deleted saturn also has good extended warranty program for year miles fully refunded you don use that works out actual cost based the year treasury rates using savings account rates more like the first three years also buys you free rental during any warranty work without counting against the refund mike general extended warranties are ripoff this really only because you get the one free with the car also there perhaps deductible you pay each and every time you use the warranty also are certain items excluded from coverage the extended warranty and you use year for some buck job and pay deduct and then you have used refund ever again extended warranties are ripoff high profit items for the dealer
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will replaced next year with all new models junk they made the lists for years due their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about they not the newest the lot and mileage about five eight mpg under the class leader you can get into shadow for the turbo bit more and droptop for
rec.autos	toyota land cruiser worth wife and looked and drove one last fall this was model was wayyyyyyyyy underpowered could not imagine driving the mountains here colorado anything approaching highway speeds have read that the new models have newer improved engine quite serious that laughed the salesman face when said once broken will feel more powerful had been used driving jeep engine believe the land cruisers land yachts were the sames the runner which also underpowered own personal opinion they are big cars very roomy but nothing spectacular tom vervaeke email tvervaek itc com hewlett packard phone love animals they taste delicious
rec.autos	questions about insurance companies esp geico considering switching geico insurance but have heard that they not assign specific agent for each policy claim was worried that this might real pain when you make claim have also heard that they try get rid you you have accident interestend determining whether not these things are true has anyone out there with geico made claim interested hearing whether not you were satisfied with the service and whether you then had trouble renewing your policy also interested any good bad stories about liberty mutual state farm
rec.autos	warning please read mchaffee dcl nxt michael chaffee writes valued terms money because they are human beings submit that they are not human beings such submissions have been made before regarding jews article apr nuscc nus matmcinn nuscc nus matthew macintyre the national university senegal writes absolutely scratch car bothers more than the death any number scum all you feel the same way you just won admit when are people going realise that the mere fact that piece flesh moves and has the approximate shape human being does not itself mean that has rights all you dirty harry types eager pull gun some scum guilty scratching your stupid painted metal boxes wheels have you ever killed human speak lightly about such matters sergei
rec.autos	ford and the auto hello name russell wong and doing research project henry ford and his automobile need information whether ford partially responsible for all the car accidents and the depletion the ozone layer also any other additional information will greatly appreciated thanks would benz and chevy toyokogio and insert car name here dan reed blu cellar org eat your pets poke out your eyes kill your boss burn down your house move elmer rip out your nose hairs with lead holder use acto knives for dental work hit your mother people get life
rec.autos	renting from alamo cause friend rented car last year and turned out needed lot more insurance than what included the base price but the other hand didn rent from alamo probability that needing more insurance unless you have accident you won need more joe let see unless you have accident you won need more hmmmmmmm bijan
rec.autos	sport utility vehical comparisons any opinions karl elvis macrae kmac cisco com wrote looking the following three suv anyone who driven all three have any strong opinions ford explorer toyota runner nissan pathfinder well was just your position and drove all three and liked all three was toss marginally went with the pathfinder based reliability and looks don think you can wrong with any them john jdenune pandora sdsu edu
rec.autos	changing oil self from drew kinglear colorado edu drew eckhardt article pod sour pod sour paul donnell wri qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc yiklam unixg ubc yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how take out the bolt under the engine compartment should turn clockwise counter tried any kind lubricants etc but still failed you think can use electric drill change suitable bit turn out can succeed can tighten not too tight safe without oil leak you shouldn need any power tools undo electric drill probably won give you much extra torque anyway will help things that are seized due rust but this unlikely for drain plug you should able undo with spanner when loosens will probably become very loose and you will bash your knuckles the underside the car this the price you must pay for doing you own work that the price you pay for not knowing how use wrench you want pull the wrench towards you away from painful knuckle splitting hard things you can pull because things are the way push with open hand find this method much better myself too although really hate when the bolt finally comes loose and the wrench and hand both come crashing into face after coming which about minutes later change clothes because this time all the oil has drained and ice entire face and suck down about tylenol ease the pain later the day then proceed with refilling the engine oil just crazy how try and change the oil cars one weekend through about bottles tylenol and bags ice john
rec.autos	the kuebelwagen article mentor purdue edu thwang mentor purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but forgot how spell after series exams and hand reference here still possible get those cute wwii jeep wanna replica would great think greetings you may luck seem recall seeing blurb one the kit car magazines about company norway who pulled mould off real kubel and has adapted the beetle floorpan for the suspension all can remember about the thing used own that had about more suspension travel than stock beetle but heard that there were after market parts for off road use that were good better note that the major difference looks wise between kubel thing are the hood and the fenders the kubel had external spare mounted the hood and the hood sloped down for visibility sharply and had rounded fenders the thing has lightly sloped hood with the spare mounted inside unless moved make for more luggage space and has half hexagon shaped fenders imagine nut large enough put tire and cut off the bottom half unfortunately don have that info anymore try stopping local bookstore and copying down the phone numbers for the two big mag and calling them they might able get the number for you don forget calculate the time difference norway before calling later quick bones help get include this klingon off std disclaimer damn jim kking uah edu doctor not bidet
rec.autos	ultimate awd vehicles article cbnewsj att com rdb cbnewsj att com ronald deblock writes yes saw turbo quattro wagon monday thought audi stopped selling wagons the after the this exactly the type vehicle would like own bet its price times car budget think again thanks minutes tick tick tick used quattros are bargains for about for perhaps more the valve are quite bit more because enormous and torque gain think they for about you can find one have seen quite lot quattros not that many wagons though the dealer lot they use very high quality paint and the entire car zinc galvanized will never rust short typically old looks more older than year old and the bangers are bullet proof engines out one not rare even for turbo which watercooled for the then there are aftermarket chips that you can buy bump turbo boost you are into luxo gizmos the cars are loaded with just about everything too the price parts different story though eliot
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time fake convertible roofs and vinyl roofs any gold trim these will agree are abominations right along with the fake continental spare tire kit sad watching those little old ladies try load their groceries into the trunk with that huge tire medallion the way most pitiful fake convertible top cadillac cimarron with all the chrome door trim still visible not fooling anyone course there was that hyundai excel once saw least you think bad taste something new back the early saw couple cars with flocked paint jobs thats not typo think they sprayed some kind glue then blew tiny pieces nylon comes out looking like felt can you picture huge plymouth fury iii dark blue felt think can even remember one guy who did red early corvette that was after had turned into station wagon mack costello mcostell oasys navy mil code formerly david taylor model basin carderock division nswc bethesda phone
rec.autos	fast idle ford ranger ljbartel naomi ingr com les bartel writes did again this morning ford ranger was idling rpm exaggerated little but was idling very fast has liter carburated engine and blipping the throttle would cause the idle drop back normal don think the linkage stuck what can fix this problem this has been problem from time time but has straightened itself out until now don have tach but gauging the sound the engine idling about twice fast should this down from what was idling when pulled stop light sometimes bad choke pull off diaphram will cause car fast idle the pull off which vacuum actuated provides necessary pull non cold weather conditions get the idle off the the fast idle cam locate the fast idle cam your vehicle and see you can rotate produce normal idle locate the diaphram and test you can apply suction via good piece rubber vacuum hose with your mouth that will cause the diaphram retract then bad and should replaced bernie lofaso applied research labs
rec.autos	water trunk probe jlong emcnext tamu edu james long writes article crn transfer stratus com tszeto sneezy stratus com tommy szeto writes water gradually builds the trunk friend ford probe every once while would have remove the spare and scoop out the water under the plywood carpet cover the trunk would guess this usually happens after good thunder storm few this common problem where are the drain holes located for the hatch noticed this probe also when recently cleaning out the back think the water coming through some rubber stoppered holes beneath the spare mine looked slightly worn and there was water water damage above the level the spare area this has taken low priority since just found out while rotating tires that have torn boot ugh got has the smoked taillight assembly think this where the water getting when first got had for month one the rear taillights fogged with moisture took the dealer and they replaced the entire assembly happened the other one about months later this time happened look the spare tire well and noticed water standing there the dealer was more reluctant this time replace but convinced them fix they must have had deal with number other probes with the same problem haven noticed water the taillamps the trunk for the last years but just last month the taillamp just fogged again going try take back get them fix again real tempted drill some vent and drain holes the tops and bottoms the assembly and forget about this getting very annoying almost every other seen has had this problem vel vel natarajan nataraja rtsg mot com motorola cellular arlington hts
rec.autos	off road rally joliet attention all four wheel off road enthusiasts off road rally sunday april joliet illinois the event the joliet mud turtles chicago land four wheel drive club sponsoring off road rally sunday april for those who ask what off road rally well off road rally consists the following the road rally where participants are given set directions and clues guiding participates around the joliet plainfield area the object navigate course based set directions and clues participants will given set questions pertaining the course which they must answer along the way points are awarded for the number correct answers given directions will ultimately lead off road area where four wheel drive course set various locations the road course check points will set where participants will asked other questions requested perform some activity tire roll truck tow basketball free throw etc for additional points optional off road four wheel drive course where participants will navigate off road trails mud bogs and hill climbs points are awarded for successfully navigating off road obstacles without getting stuck you should get stuck which half the fun anyway there will assistance get your vehicle unstuck you can try again the off road course will divided based tire size stock well modified can run the course the end the rally trophies will awarded top scoring participants door prizes and dash plaques will also given out food and drinks also available the conclusion this organized activity sponsored the joliet mud turtles safety and fun our foremost concern all must street legal and have solid tow points for the off road section the course don want have separate someone bumper from their vehicle the particulars rally begins instant replay plainfield road joliet see map below registration between and first truck out rally date sunday april rain shine there entry fee per truck you must have driver passengers allowed valid drivers license required suggested equipment radio compass tow strap and clevis clip board and pencil alcohol during rally for more information contact gary tom norm brian instant replay north exit canton larkin farm ave exit
rec.autos	auto air conditioning without freon markm bigfoot sps mot com mark monninger writes article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes several chemists already have come with several substitutes for you don hear about them because the mobile air conditioning society macs that the people who stand rake that per retrofit per automobile have mounted organized campaign squash those substitutes out existence not ban them altogether very shaky technical grounds best outright lies worst now not saying you wrong because know that the substitutes exist but this sounds lot like the mpg carbs that the oil companies keep all from getting these substitutes exist and this time are available its the future availability that doubt ghg get from people welding supply butane propane you can mix this yourself one can ever regulate away just make sure you use good quality dry gases don know any mpg carb distributors jon hacker get the march beta rom caltech pasadena for call ibm hacker tumbler ridge caltech edu read about comp beta
rec.autos	wife wants convertible help wife has informed that she wants convertible for her next car live south fla are definitely the right are for one wife has mentioned the miata but think too small would like wait for the new mustangs dec think anyone have any opinions any all convertibles reasonable price range thanx
rec.autos	third party car antennas since this posting received replies followups posting here hoping for the feedback didn get rec audio car article number newsgroups rec audio car path cbfsb cbnewsb att com vinlai from vinlai cbnewsb att com vincent lai subject third party car antennas message apr cbfsb att com sender news cbfsb att com organization distribution date tue apr gmt recently saw particular third party antenna new camry not mine but caught interest and new seems replace the factory power antenna and about foot long made plastic tubing have seen them quite few cars but can find anything more about them previous articles nor articles like know all can any feedback greatly appreciated mom hungry bud bundy why tell peg bundy vincent lai vinlai cbnewsb att com forwards mail vlai attmail com which eventually winds wcmnja lai somerset att com
rec.autos	too fast previous article tedebear leland stanford edu theodore chen says article armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes compare either the porsche and you tell which was designed fast you have point about the brakes especially seeing how the mustang doesn even have disc brakes the back but there are significant differences between the latest and the late not the least which handling not think you mean late the biggest change that porsche undertook alter the tailhappieness their baby was way back august for the model year when they stretched the wheelbase besides some people actually know how take advantage oversteer and enjoy europe the got low marks for high speed handling though fair they might have been comparing the vette handling what was that phil hill famous race car driver said about the you should have seen what phil hill world champion had say about the vette driven turbo you can make thoroughbred out pig but you can have awful fast pig yeah that was what said paul frere agreed they both prefered the porsche modified ruf either the vette that test bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.autos	sho and article apr mksol dseg com moe dseg com robert loper writes article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr ganglion ann arbor david ganglion ann arbor david hwang writes would willing bet that removed the automatic transmissions from all performance type cars like the mustangs camaros and the like cut down the number accidents each year autos are fine for sedate little sedans but they have business performance cars imho james have disagree with this have with and speed auto overdrive and really better that way chevy autos are reknowned for their long life and ability handle copious amount power live the dallas area and manual would much harder drive the traffic here now still lived out the sticks like used manual would more fun don know much issue their ablility handle the power the power they lose the torque converter etc safety wise auto less distracting would hate have shifting gears while was trying ease into traffic the freeways here performance wise can hold own against any stock mustang camaro five speed however you encounter formula with speed manual you sol afraid btw know what speak former owner auto iroc and current owner the aforementioned car chris chris silvester any man capable getting himself elected president chriss sam amgen com should means allowed the job chriss netcom com douglas adams the hitchhiker guide the galaxy
rec.autos	changing oil self article lmtr mentor purdue edu marshatt feserve purdue edu uberer writes article qgi einnhs skeena ucs ubc yiklam unixg ubc yik chong lam writes hello does anyone know how take out the bolt under the engine compartment should turn clockwise counter tried any kind lubricants etc but still failed you think can use electric drill change suitable bit turn out can succeed can tighten not too tight safe without oil leak thank you very much advance winson don worry about leaks don worry about which way turn the damn thing take good claw hammer and pry straight out now you notice after all the oil pours out that there are theads where there used thats why heli coils were invented yes buy few these gems and rethread the hole little larger each time you change the oil when the hole gets too big for any heli coil you can buy its time trade the car
rec.autos	too fast article qmcih dhs armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes they light the highways texas funny everywhere else been they only light junctions and armadillo crossings texas pretty much edge case you can assume that everywhere has roads such good condition such flat terrain and such wide open spaces just ain well let see just own personal experience there nevada new mexico texas wyoming utah south dakota nebraska minnesota montana florida and parts louisianna nobody said let into town and drive main and you couldn that fast the graveled washboard that passes for highway some parts but that only really expensive cars should driven fast crap well crap
rec.autos	rush was too fast remember roads america are not designed for speeds above meaning they would safe roads like the autobahn are smoother straiter wider and slightly banked example few months back was traveling late night and was changing highways bent crosssing curved off the south east becoming hidden trees after about and continued the left strait north wanted turn north checked the south lane rolled into the crossing and checked the north lane nevertheless there wasn car sight took one last look and pulled into the left hand lane now car isn sec performer but was the corect lane and over decent time even wasn wasting time was then that checked mirror and saw mustang closing lane fast had just turned the corner and was just noticing luckly saw and changed lanes time estamate was moving excess was just stander had chance runing from him moving out his way glad saw brake lights time shudder think what would have happened had wainted pull out and not left the time needed dodge rule just because your car can and your way clear don assume will stay that way travis disclamer the ideas expressed above are fact the same employer since have none mail flame marshatt feserve purdue edu
rec.autos	dings the paint hood hello have toyota and the last few weeks have been getting quite few dings the paint the hood from rocks and debris off the road have never had any major problems with other car trucks the past maybe ding once while went the dealer and said that happens all the time and recomended putting bug deflector the hood said that the trucks for some unknown reason seem have this problem more than some cars seems that either luck really bad there might problem with the paint painted monday morning perhaps how well these bug deflectors work for small road debris trucks anyone has any experiences suggestions please let know thanks greg thorn wam umd edu
rec.autos	rfi art clutchless shifting wondering anybody else out there clutchless shifter been doing self over miles current toyota truck got over heard people talk about how doing this can damage transmission experiences suggest otherwise what techniques you use some old pieces junk drove the transmission was worn that pumping the clutch was the only way shift except clutchless date driven rabbits datsuns comets fords chevy some where harder than others shift but generally the higher the milage the smoother quicker easier they where shift technique ease back off the throttle and the same time gently wrist back the shift lever for some reason miss the shift window lightly press the accelerator try agian found that clutchless shifting eaiser quicker high rpms also skip gears some times using krispy
rec.autos	braindead drivers who don look ahead article apr cbnewsd att com hhm cbnewsd att com herschel mayo writes anybody going anywhere block the would passers not only for own good but theirs well even though they are often too stupid realize are looking for good people just like you are very concerned group citizens who are absolutely disgusted the way that the majority drivers simply disobey traffic rules like going above the speed limit passing our right and riding our tails while all the while respectfully abide the rules this great country and maintain the mandated speed limits with our calibrated certified cruise controls while keeping the respectful car length distance mph speed how many times have you been ticked off some moron who jumps ahead the car lengths that you have left between you and the vehicle ahead you while driving mph finally you have option are totally member supported group that perform functions for our own good for the good this great country but most all for those unfortunate ones that are too stupid realize bless their souls for paltry you can join citizens for rationally advanced piloting non profit members only society but but but there slight hitch the initiation rite full fledged member this exclusive club you must proof that you are able the fast lane the busiest interstate your area keep the correct car lenth mph speedand know this can difficult with those morons around not let anybody pass you not the next lane not the slow lane not the breakdown lane not nowhere for complete list acceptable interstates and times send and the way over our members are highly regarded attorneys the auto field and they are completely absolutely positively the business only serve your best interests testament their virtues they will give members off the initial consultation fee feel free drop line your earliest convenience and remember only speed kills jit
rec.autos	lois chevrolet was whatching the history the indy the other day and early the film around the name lois chevrolet came out the blue wanted know the chevrolet founder mearly driver who name was called the same the other guy koni
rec.autos	help mercury capri query folks recently bought mercury capri first car ever have noticed few problems with the car gives very low gas mileage something like miles gallon hear other car owners speak gas mileage figures like miles gallon wow etc when start the car goes into high idling something like rpm after driving miles comes down rpm would like know there any way which can fix these problems natural for old car like this has done about miles someone suggested that change rebuild recondition the carburettor not prepared unless sure will fix the problem and yes got the car tuned recently within the last miles please let know you have any suggestions please respond email since don scan this newsgroup regularly thanks regards sudhi sira gopinath sudhindranath email sudhi ucs usl edu one one them ask small minded men those noble mind think the entire world their family hitopadesha
rec.autos	help find stolen car offered relay this information for ham friend mine without internet access his name robert bob wondolowski kda and his car was brown cutlas sierra sedan massachusetts plate adl his yaesu and mobile antenna were also included the car was stolen from lynn mass about days ago being april anyone has any information about the car whereabouts please mail thank you for taking the time read this message scott ehrlich internet world std com amateur radio packet radio ugm usa scott ehrlich internet world std com amateur radio packet radio ugm usa
rec.autos	subaru shop manuals for sale subaru service manuals this not complete set but includes sections which cover mechanical components suspension wheels axles steering brakes pedals control cables heater ventilator air conditioning body body exterior doors windows seats seat belts interior instrument panel and electrical engine electrical system body electrical system wiring diagram and trouble shooting these are the genuine subaru issue manuals they are for model year but have plenty good information that applies other years well and long posting end car stuff miscellaneous darkroom equipment solar enlarger several objective lenses with easel and timer negative carriers for and misc printing masks developing tanks thermometer trays constant temperature bath ground glass mirrors darkroom lamps glassware cheap tripods and they say much more beautiful antique buffet solid cherry veneer handmade with very interesting dovetail corners the drawers built think around not gaudy covered with gew gaws simple elegant piece furniture but too big long tall deep for our little cape cod house will deliver pricier items over anywhere the rochester area and will consider delivering the others will deliver any uofr campus between now and graduation call mail paul mary just south rochester plkg ltd uhura rochester edu
rec.autos	isuzu amigo opinions wanted there anyone out there netland that has has had one these can someone give non consumer reports review point source thanks scott sdexter ucrengr ucr edu computer science undergraduate university california riverside internet sdexter technet shl com facilities engineer shl systemhouse inc technology network internet you say its gonna happen now what exactly you mean you see already waited too long and all hope gone the smiths
rec.autos	options that would great have article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes list options that would useful they can existing options car things you like have tripmeter great little gadget lets you keep rough track mileage makes good second guesser for your gas gauge full size spare built mountings and power systems for radar detectors fitting that allows you generate household current with the engine running and plug ins the trunk engine compartment and cabin feel free add how about fuel gauge that really told you how much fuel was left like can make where the gas should get gouged right here accurate the tenth gallon would great contract khalsa ncr engineering and manufacturing bernardo san diego khalsa sandiego ncr com
rec.autos	runner and pathfinder recent changes interested finding out how the runner and pathfinder have been updated the past few years like new engine suspension and the like noticed that the and runners are identical for example and was looking into buying used one any info would appreciated esp models years check out avoid thx andy brandt unc edu
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will replaced next year with all new models junk they made the lists for years due their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about they not the newest the lot and mileage about five eight mpg under the class leader you can get into shadow for the turbo bit more and droptop for fleet mgr cars they were amoung the most trouble free all models bought one for wife
rec.autos	best radar detector article apr lrc edu burnside lrc edu writes article apr opencon com giand opencon com deepak gia nchandani writes mubashir cheema don buy one that the best way avoid tickets used have one and whenever cop would pull over see the thing give ticket one time sister was driving and had the glove compartment was broken and she got ticket had received tickets because one for sister total five that was five years ago now don have one and have not gotten ticket driving habits have not changed drastically only two days ago was going mph highway with mph limit cop saw break little nothing happened was driving mini van with family otherwise have cutlass supreme which most the times the highway basically opnion not get one you get pulled over the cop will hear your excuse but you have radar detecter will not again this has been experienc just get remote model that not visible the cop but sure get front and rear sensors you can also just put the detector off the side the dash the cop doesn see right away valentine the best detector far stated car and driver and even tells you what direction the radar coming from also gives the amount threats picking you through the same place everyday and always goes off there you can glance the number threats the valentine detecting see genuine cop about and you can only get factory direct one problem rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	noisy engine article apr engr washington edu eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes the noise really bugs you there nothing else that you can except sell and get perhaps nice used pontiac fiero liters does anyone know the motor mounts for the and the twin dual cam liter match the supposedly derived from the pushrod which was punched out liter should drop replacement horses mid engine the size fiero larry smith smith ctron com don speak for cabletron need you ask liberty not the freedom whatever want the freedom whatever are able
rec.autos	most bang for article uupcb cutting hou david bonds cutting hou vid bonds writes rec autos cpkjp latech edu kevin parker writes like get some feedback car with most bang for the buck the price range looking for car with enough civility driven every day even long trips but when hit the gas want fee take look taurus sho they can found for and are the ultimate door sports cars performance similar mustang but quite civil and comfortable try get late model for the better shifter the cutting edge bbs cutting hou pcboard system houston texas usa running uupcb well you could always with mustang with pleasant but the diamond star cars talon eclipse laser put out the turbo models and the awd turbo models these cars also have handling match the muscle and are civil regular driving conditions rather than having harsh stiff ride the awd turbo clearly the better choice the two because all that torque steer the front drive model but you may have with leftover slightly used model for that price range tough decision rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	birds are they physics majors darkside osrhe uoknor edu operator writes crazy question anyone ever wonder how birds can drop load car going over mph took non stop trip got shitted four times every time hitting the windshield not even the open sunroof guess have conscientious birds was going mph used have galaxie convertible was sitting light waiting for turn green turned green but hesitated little sleeping guess and bird bombed landed directly front eye level guess the bird miscalculated and thought was going take off right away and still trying figure out the one got under rear bumper well was the bird flying and doing fancy acrobatics car and decided drop one while executing perfect loop mustang george kirkaldie pioneer audio control gkirkaldie sanity tdkcs waterloo phoenix gold kicker flowmaster motorsport cambridge ontario canada
rec.autos	any syclone typhoon owners out there want start list for syclone and typhoon owners you are interested participating please contact via mail merrill
rec.autos	wife wants convertible nuet pts mot com keith nuetzman writes help wife has informed that she wants convertible for her next car live south fla are definitely the right are for one wife has mentioned the miata but think too small would like wait for the new mustangs dec think anyone have any opinions any all convertibles reasonable price range thanx the olds supreme convertible got high marks recent test you can get the stupid body moldings and stuff the saab ragtop may out your range but its good choice there new car convertible the nissan convertible nice car also those immediately come mind chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick judge quick anger slow understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand hand
rec.autos	manual shift bigots wanted the best auto shifters the street and not the track are those from porsche they wont change you floor the gas during turn few years back was auto you guys call without turbo and was going round corner floored and next thing know was pointing backwards the other drivers seemed quite amused shaz
rec.autos	improvements automatic transmissions just wanted know wheelspin auto you keep the gear gas then stick the gear never tried this but sure works but does this screw the autobox having bit debate about here
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all time dumbest options well here the bmw offer smokers option just means they take the fag lighter out big deal btw just bought honda crx its neat did consider targa you guys call miata but that crx just one heart with that body kit and spokes richard out there somewhere
rec.autos	dumbest automotive concepts all tim article targhee idaho amdahl com rbs sawtooth idaho amdahl com bob smith writes article apr cas org sdm cas org writes imho the dumbest thing ever did copying the japanese was moving the dimmer switch from the floor the lever controlling the turn signal cruise control bun warmer etc well porsche had the dimmer the turn signal stalk guess those dumb germans were copying the japanese too rest deleted not mention friend citroen traction avant with the light switch and dimmer integrated single stalk off the steering column those dumb french were apparently copying the japanese before the germans roland
rec.autos	what volvo article sernews raleigh ibm com mperry vnet ibm com mark perry writes hardly good reason most cars too and plenty people buy them the anyway think the quite good looking car unlike the influenced kevinh hasler ascom don think easy tell the from any other series unless you look real close really think volvo are all dogs though beacuse they are agricultural while previous volvos have been essentially very fast tractors the and series are far from agricultural design execution how many fwd tractors have you seen have godlier than thou advertising you state this like bad thing remember car companies use agencies they don their own ads are part renault this true know that they had done joint ventures with renault but haven heard about their subsumption into renault does this mean that the french government now owns volvo anyway renault makes some very nice cars they just don sell america however one thing that think their favour that they are immediately recognisable volvo and that not something you can say about most japanese manufacturers and ford saab also have strong corparate look which like not what thing all car makers could aim for make life little more varied here here mperry vnet ibm com roland rhorwell atc boeing com
rec.autos	manual shift bigots article liw cax news rich bnr peon email eric youngblood writes article vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu michael edelman writes the big disadvantage automatics the they consume that never gets the wheels this respect they are disadvantage manual only when the torque converter not locked there are autos out there with converter lock and gears dont forget that now that new speed manual trannys are available the drive train more optimally geared get the most out the engine rare are speed autos but very real bottom line both manuals and automatics have vastly improved think that automatics have advanced far more than manuals especially shift intelligence say that smart automatic better than the majority drivers terms being the right gear the right time which more important than torque converter losses prefer the stick for fun and the auto for traffic who says you can have your cake and eat too well designed shifter will easily facilitate manual clutchless shifts referring the much copied mercedes jagged gate the only department where you lose out the number ratios available and course the converter losses ayrton senna can drive racecar with fully automatic transmission can half bad eliot
rec.autos	warning please read callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes not going argue the issue carrying weapons but would ask you you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think worse things the world glad you got out there before they did anything give you reason fire your gun think people have right kill defend their property why not honest you really care more about scum than about your car
rec.autos	sho and article constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes why anyone would order sho with automatic transmission beyond you can handle stick you should stick with regular taurus and leave the sho real drivers that not say that there aren real drivers who can use the stick disabled persons but they aren any position use sho anyway actually disabled persons have been known drive scca races careful about making sweeping generalizations here prefer manual transmission but the early sho had awful transmission that felt like came out truck something was almost enough make want automatic teddy
rec.autos	too fast article qmcih dhs armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes boyle cactus org craig boyle writes the quality autobahns something myth the road surface isn much different typical freeway they are better terms lighting safety signs roadmarkings etc they light the highways texas funny everywhere else been they only light junctions sorry they meant autobahns not freeways won even get into how much road markings vary between states and localities except say that there are some areas where markings are essentially nonexistant than most the roads here dip the asphalt that you test your shocks will kill you don get wrong love would have quite severe don recall any freeway without road damage warnings that would regard unsafe any decent well damped car suspect you have very limited experience freeways vary dramatically particularly between states can name number interstate highways various parts the country where would very optimistic any car well driven every state but alaska and drive about per year take long cross country trips any chance get its fun for and can get reimbursment job allows drive rather than fly not labor the point but driven just about every freewayin the germany and france plus some mexico which was surpisingly good not sure what you call quite severe terms road deviations but suspect every single bridge junction through would considered they hard take mph that not the only interstate seen with such deviations but one drive frequently yes but age the total freeway the all you have this case mark the hazard advising people slow texas pretty much edge case you can assume that everywhere has roads such good condition such flat terrain and such texas freeways are varied sometimes good surface mostly flat but comparable and hilly wide open spaces just ain given the absence other traffic and car built for most freeways are just fine the problem other road users and cops jim frost jimf centerline com craig
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences article oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu stephen nicholas writes stuff about dodge shadow deleted fleet mgr cars they were amoung the most trouble free all models bought one for wife what you mean all models all models cars all chrysler models all models that the fleet manager had bought because there way hell that the shadow the most reliable car all models sold not even chrysler dept lies damned lies and statistics would claim that craig
rec.autos	ultimate awd vehicles article apr engr washington edu eliot stalfos engr washington edu eliot writes the price parts different story though you can say that again how does for new thermostat sound teddy
rec.autos	big block the subject says has and brother law wants please don reply posting this for him here his numbers daytime dave schrader schrader eai iastate edu
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences article oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu oprsfnx gsusgi gsu edu stephen nicholas writes daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will replaced next year with all new models junk they made the lists for years due their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about they not the newest the lot and mileage about five eight mpg under the class leader you can get into shadow for the turbo bit more and droptop for fleet mgr cars they were amoung the most trouble free all models bought one for wife nnnnnnnng thank you for playing cannot agree with this believed this and put nicely was piece junk loved this car babied pampered and after years just couldn stay together would say that not everyone will have the problems that had but know this not just the car the ability get the car fixed which will not happen any chrysler dodge take your pick dealer don care there are going reform their dealers service with the intro the cars will believe when see case and point the local dodge dealer you drive just looking you don even get out your door when about yes salesman all eye you like their next meal and literally pounce you and try get you make deal everything your eye wanders towards service about times worse than that had alignment problem but they tried tell that the frame was bent and about dollars work parts fix let tell you the problems had and took care this car put alot miles the first couple years but took every checkup needed and many that shouldn have been dodge shadow these were replaced within the years that owned the car engine alternators rear suspension torsion bar water pumps thermostats hall effect sensor main computer batteries these were rebuilt repaired radiator automatic transmission power steering those are just the things can remember off the top head for about year before sold the car said myself good car just can find anybody competent enough the fix the end before traded for saturn the power steering started acting again just stopped putting money into must have put least worth repairs over lifetime sorry but lee iacocca can bite bullshit whoever backs best just afraid the stupid things are going fall apart and one will buy them without assurance why the hell you think that has been nicknamed last hope you can better and know people will disagree with here but japanese like honda toyota the only american car company that feel quality product saturn will not touch another chrysler product again way don care how good the cars look good and will admit they look promising but not with the support that you get isn much better thank god they don control saturn like they their divisions would just another marketing ploy don get wrong will watching car which like like hawk for the next years much more hesitant say any car really good until has proved itself but since someone else pointed out source will note because used read these magazines that car and driver has never had good thing say about most chrysler products shadow for one always were they moaning about the reguritated car and engine whereas motor trend always thought they were great cars car magazine really objective and although there are alot people who don like consumers reports will use them reinforce argument already know about the big stink with the saturn crash tests time will tell how good car they are the shadow sundance rate much worse than average fact none the chrysler rate better than average think the best one just average excluding the diamond star mitsubishi stuff and the you can find bad stuff about the shadow try might when researched the saturn could not find anything bad about there great deal information about this company just because new american company and has created quite stir the automotive community for good reason much more than the introduction any new model lines any established company read article which had sub column think this imprinted more than anything else some big wig toyota said and quote are watching them very closely come everybody grow the foreign cars especially the japanese have been kicking our butts for good reason the american car companies could not make good product support the customer the way they want these days set their ways which one the reasons saturn was created they are still struggling because they haven learned yet they have the ability the workers are not inferior the technology not out date but their attitude and they are just finding this out called competition gentleman women you don satisfy the demand the consumer well your out asbestos suit gaia
rec.autos	buick heater controls have buick skylark with bought california and let like keep for another year the only problem these indiana winters heater controls don work the car has vacuum operated control switches for the vents right now stuck the vent mode will blow warm air but can switch the air flow either the floor can live without this the defrost can live without this probably could just jam the air deflector the defrost position but this blows lot air face and well kind like putting vacuum cleaner reverse have taken parts the dash off and looked the vacuum system and think the problem part with the two diaphragms which control down and outside inside air flow the diaphragm which controls outside vent side vent air cracked most the way around and the other one probably damaged too considering the advanced age the car two questions there anything should aware about this other than the fact that should move from indiana the event that replacement diaphragms aren available there way fix this thanks for any advice info selah dan lovall physics purdue edu
rec.autos	impala going into does that mean that they gonna bring back the biscayne and bel air how about the george howell goucher ffv ampr org george
rec.autos	need info porsche article midway uchicago edu buzy quads uchicago edu len buzyna writes there recently been toying with the idea purchasing old the going rate seems about for cars with anywhere from question this what should expect this price should expect have extensive body work done what about engine transmission should likewise expect have both virtually replaced along those lines does anyone have the names addresses any mail order parts suppliers for everything from engine body parts completely new the area restoring cars and don actually any work with cars most the work would have professionally done what sould expect the cost upgrading rust free mechanically sound automobile thanks advance andre true enthusiasts will able give you better answer then this but dump impressions wanted own for about years now came close once but ended buying fiero instead biggest mistake life anyway for you should able get nice car but your also set the price range get taken nice looker that pile shit the most common total failure for the car would frame rust between the engine and passenger compartment also look for chassis welded together here yeah the price range you are talking about must the banger you could find one would mucho more bucks parts for the engine are pretty easy come for old car and you can even locate crude the whitney catalog you have too the machine itself pretty simple they use the spare tire for windshild washer instead pump fer chris sake getting fixed good bug porsche mechanic would easy since mid engine you may spend more labor for any mechanical work jeff miller network systems corporation internetwork group boone avenue north jmiller network com minneapolis
rec.autos	militech jchen wind bellcore com jason chen writes saw interesting product auto show and would like hear your comments militech yet another oil additive but the demonstration this product really impressive didn cheat well heard that militech stuff works pretty good too one friends who races scca sanctioned events and all that stuff got the militech stuff early trial thing and put his crx says worked great but didn ask him for any details erich erich lim yob sccsi com olde bailey bbs bis bis houston texas yob sccsi com home alt cosuard
rec.autos	honda new car info from kay honda helpful hints about your honda infromation sheet given new owners honda vehicles burning smell may evident from your new car shortly after taking delivery now own fire extinguisher prelude mels temperatures above degrees push the accelerator pedal the floor one time release slowly and with your foot off the accelerator crank the engine until starts moe than seconds note cranking may required temperatures below degrees the accelerator will have depressed times door panels and interior trim can damaged they are not buckled getting caught when closing doors when shifting accord automatic transmissions from park neutral reverse into drive the transmission shifts into gear case towing start the engine shift into drive from park then from drive neutral turn off engine what you are getting towed engine won run engine does not run not use this procedure phew was worried insert smilies where appropriate though this real jonathan jdrout scott skidmore edu skidmore college saratoga civic aftermarket fogs you own one you understand
rec.autos	for hail damage record article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes article apr pencom com stecz pencom com writes article apr cactus org boyle cactus org craig boyle writes integra was hit hard the hailstorm austin the insurance company cut check for deductible last week this record anybody else had settlements from the same hailstorm yet craig rumor has that guy dell computer had his miata totalled that would about guess either had the top down the hail ripped through the top you could not worth hail damage miata body craig john steczkowski stecz pencom com the constitution grants you the right life liberty and the pursuit happiness does not attempt guarantee that everyone will happy there was volvo owner that had dollars worth improvements the looks the car hail
rec.autos	warning please read article srib constellation ecn uoknor edu callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes article apr magnus acs ohio state edu bqueiser magnus acs ohio state edu brian queiser writes anything hadn emptied his gun into the asshole texas whole other country that reminds one texas ads you hear guy speaking french like letter home then the french moves the background and french accented voice come the foreground talking about how went walking the beach and felt much like home that decided take his shoes off and the rest his clothes ended with please send bail rec autos note does anyone carry gun them keep one their car which bad idea isn you work bad part town regularly through one this loaded question normally have unloaded colt delta glove box with loaded magazine handy which perfectly legal oklahoma for those times that travelling inter state keep unloaded magnum revolver the glove box with speed loader pocket which legal everywhere under federal law illinois state police hanged said before this stricly for defense insurance will pay replace car but only have one life james carrying pistol loaded unloaded the glove compartment considered carrying concealed weapon colorado and illegal without concealed weapons permit unless the law has been changed recently carrying weapon openly legal colorado but concealing illegal read newspaper account last year where police stopped car traffic infraction and observed magnum revolver sitting the seat the driver could not cited for possessing carrying the weapon because was not concealed the article stated that the gun had been discovered the glove box would have been considered crime ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say better but say ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young
rec.autos	sunroof leaks all wet sunroof leaks always thought those things were royal pain can anyone provide any insight know the seal isn great maybe could weld the stupid thing shut
rec.autos	manual shift bigots prefer manual automatic should believe that automatics should only manufactured for people with physical disabilities who otherwise would not able drive automatic transmissions allow drivers lazy more time available fiddle with the radio look the scenery instead concentrating the road the manual transmission keeps the drive always doing something granted isn large movement plus driving should fun driving manual fun driving automatic chore the case shift speed automatics can made shift far faster that any human could move stick was racing want and automatic for normal driving with the manual
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences article qofeainnn shelley washington edu gaia carson washington edu are gaia writes just stopped putting money into must have put least worth repairs over lifetime sorry but lee iacocca can bite bullshit whoever backs best just afraid the stupid things area the part about spending repairs reminds article read magazine comparing the year ownership costs toyota camry and ford taurus something like that the result which they announced with great flourish was that cost the same the end the period that was their argument prove that you don wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry now remember correctly the camry costs about more initial costs essentially means that you spend about extra repairs the taurus that ridiculous every time your car needs repairs extra hassles loss time and dozen other things would much rather spend more initial costs than spend more repair costs cut here for signature balaji ramanathan institute transportation studies don believe luck university california irvine rely
rec.autos	two cars chevy nova and dodge you can see have two cars both worth about each the problem that maintenance costs these two cars running about per year and insurance per year what doing wrong within the last two months the follows costs have occured dodge dodge attempt the american german car replace head gasket new radiator chevy nova chevy attempt japan import tune oil change valve gasket middle exhaust pipe misc note also that the chevy nova has only horsepwer does anyone out there have chevy nova with enough power get even small hill without knocking there something wrong with car even use octane gas have consider going octane can find anyway what are the best maintenance items yourself and what equipment needed thanks doug car doug from wayne
rec.autos	taurus sable rotor recall antonio balsamo save the wails balsamo stargl enet dec com wrote from opdbs latech edu subject taurus sable rotor recall taurus with only the clock also has rotor warp apparently they haven fixed the problem yet but try convincing the ford service person fix for free right tony gads have heard many horror stories with taurus and sable cars thought these were premium american automobiles the way they sell you think ford really better than the late when was turning out tin cans like the granada and the fairmount which would you get taurus camry accord john zorro picasso ocis temple edu zorro astro ocis temple edu
rec.autos	getting car need opinions article apr lehigh edu lehigh edu anny phornprapha writes have budget looking for sports car what you think would the best buy looking for specific models thanks danny say would right there you could easily deal down has some the most impressive performance figures around and automotive magazines eat one car seriously consider that price range rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.autos	getting car need opinions previous article lehigh edu danny phornprapha says have budget looking for sports car what you think would the best buy looking for specific models thanks danny hey you programmers out there danny phornprapha please consider this lehigh edu bugs are another endangered earth lucc student konsultant species needing your protection work for all out sports car for the without the sports suspension which too stiff for little more practicality and more comfort the nissan turbo good buy and for good dose luxury the lexus perfect with manual transmission course however the toyota supra coming out soon and you like looks the performance supposed great almost race car like don particulary like the mitsubishi the dodge stealths they are too heavy and aren very nimble handlers for sports car motion picture major the brooks institute photography santa barbara and foreign student from kuala lumpur malaysia the mind the forerunner all states
rec.autos	there rust beamer help actually wasn too surprised since bought with the rust any you got some ideas getting rid this cheaply key word has eaten all the way through the door panels can use bondo also there good paint that will bond aluminum rims the paint thati was rims has peeled off actually there some rust looking stuff the rims themselves but comes off pretty easily one more thing have any you done self painting car how you start what need this please help jesse
rec.autos	chryslers compact sedans cka uxa cso uiuc edu carolinafan uiuc writes shoppa almach caltech edu tim shoppa writes thought that the was originally designed for truck not necessarily pickup and then just sort dropped into the viper frame because fit and was available friend mine and saw and heard viper and friend first response was that sounded like truck sounded fine but then again don like the whiny noise that most modern sports car engines make btw the viper saw was moving about mph just like all the other cars the freeway heading east out friday afternoon looked really nice though actually was under the impression that the the viper was not the that dodge was developing for its new kenworths have always thought was the exhaust system and not the engine that produced the noise car well yes the exhaust where the majority the noise comes out but the basics tone firing cadence etc are determined the engine configuration the case the viper yes are discussing huge multicylinder deg engine which will sound somewhat like truck and understanding btw that that engine was designed originally with the intention being aptible for either the trucks the viper and from what heard first hand knowledge doing pretty good job both and the best exhaust sound the world now and will always degree dohc colombo designed period michael chaffee mchaffee cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	advice used car was looking for some helpful advice university student with about spend and looking for used car does anyone have any useful advice they could offer first time buyer not looking for anything sporty just something functional and reliable less maintenance costs anybody have any ideas what models might suit thanks sanjai
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences article bdc news service uci edu raman translab its uci edu balaji ramanathan writes the part about spending repairs reminds article read magazine comparing the year ownership costs toyota camry and ford taurus something like that the result which they announced with great flourish was that cost the same the end the period that was their argument prove that you don wrong buying the ford taurus over the camry now remember correctly the camry costs about more initial costs essentially means that you spend about extra repairs the taurus that ridiculous every time your car needs repairs extra hassles loss time and dozen other things would much rather spend more initial costs than spend more repair costs did you account for depreciation seriously doubt that taurus would rack extra repair costs over years teddy
rec.autos	wife wants convertible previous article nuet pts mot com keith nuetzman says help wife has informed that she wants convertible for her next car live south fla are definitely the right are for one wife has mentioned the miata but think too small would like wait for the new mustangs dec think anyone have any opinions any all convertibles reasonable price range thanx geo metro lsi drew
rec.autos	too fast previous article callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison says article usenet ins cwru edu aas cwru edu andrew spencer writes previous article wrat unisql uucp wharfie says article qkon armory centerline com jimf centerline com jim frost writes larger engine that what the sho slightly modified family sedan with powerful engine they didn even bother improving the brakes that shows how much you know about anything the brakes the sho are very different inch forget discs all around vented front the normal taurus setup smaller discs front drums rear one saw had vented rears too was lot course the sales man was fool titanium wheels yeah right then later told they were magnesium more believable but still crap since uch cheaper and just good tend agree tho that this still doesn take the sho standard for running regular basis the brakes should bigger like take look the ones the corrados where they have braking regulations well let see bird has computer controlled adjustable suspension wheel abs disks vented front rear point belts sturdy passenger compartment aerodynamics good enough for nascar without too much change supercharged wheel independent suspension plus limited slip differential with top speed excess mph and rides rated tires have yet find any other speed rating that standard not why not james james really hate this but try reading the damn posts never was bird mentioned the discussion was about sho and stangs not being spec not know about birds only know that the specs quoted for the sho previous poster sounded little anemic for say that was snuff this does not any way disencourage from wishing own one nor does make bad car merely means that think ford could have added that extra bit safety and tossed larger brakes the wheels are plenty large enough for them fit memory serves right which may very well not and the motor plenty powerful enough need drew
rec.autos	warning please read matmcinn nuscc nus matthew macintyre the national university senegal writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes not going argue the issue carrying weapons but would ask you you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think worse things the world glad you got out there before they did anything give you reason fire your gun think people have right kill defend their property why not honest you really care more about scum than about your car can tell matt being sarcastic here not but honest many automobiles are worth far more their owners value and investment than the people that would take them don have figures average property tax the how much allocated for housing projects inferior public schools jails the like but have feeling that the amount the government steals from honest productive citizen breed this trash significantly less than the value many automobiles and for those who will argue that the animals out there stealing cars and everything else not mention committing completely senseless acts violence such rape cannot valued terms money because they are human beings submit that they are not human beings jim callison think the right track and chintan amin remarked earlier that cannot blame environment for the actions single criminal couldn agree more one could trace any crime back the environment upbringing the criminal should let all them out from pickpockets rapists inside traders because what they did wasn their fault where does one draw the line michael chaffee mchaffee cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	viper rmt faraday clas virginia edu roy matthew thigpen writes last night had dream that dad bought viper took out for test drive without his knowledge and had push all the way home just avoid ticket wierd dream wonder what means vell let see vas you muzzah der passenger seat vas you muzzah der leefing room vit you fazah feeling tad bit freudian doubtless inspired the magnificent phallic ness some word the viper
rec.autos	warning please read article apr nuscc nus matmcinn nuscc nus matthew macintyre the national university senegal writes callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu james callison writes not going argue the issue carrying weapons but would ask you you would have thought seriously about shooting kid for setting off your alarm can think worse things the world glad you got out there before they did anything give you reason fire your gun think people have right kill defend their property why not honest you really care more about scum than about your car watch the attributions didn say that again this isn appropriate forum for discussions whether you should shoot someone for property damage vandalism theft but every responsible gun owner realizes that there are limits and the punishment must fit the crime mean think about really harmless prank worth killing over said the situation described punks setting off alarms and taunting people come out could turn very ugly very quickly and worth being prepared when your life potentially the line james james callison microcomputer coordinator oklahoma law center callison uokmax ecn uoknor edu callison aardvark ucs uoknor edu disclaimer not engineer but play one work the forecast calls for thunder bird hell thing killing man you take away all has and all ever gonna have will munny unforgiven
rec.autos	manual shift bigots eliot lanmola engr washington edu eliot writes article liw cax news rich bnr peon email eric youngblood writes article vela acs oakland edu mje pookie pass wayne edu michael edelman writes the big disadvantage automatics the they consume that never gets the wheels this respect they are disadvantage manual only when the torque converter not locked there are autos out there with converter lock and gears performance converter lockup purely irrelevant the lockup only occurs light throttle settings and serves only improve mpg mind you converter clutch does lovely job improving mpg but the additional mechanical advantage the converter gives you more acceleration locked converter clutch than its inherent losses take away michael chaffee mchaffee cso uiuc edu email mchaffee sumter cso uiuc edu nextmail sig under construction excuse
rec.autos	the kuebelwagen thwang mentor purdue edu tommy hwang writes sorry for the mis spelling but forgot how spell after series exams and hand reference here still possible get those cute wwii jeep wanna replica would great think tkh according the complete guide specialty cars edition from crown publishing the kubelwagen dots over the the company wolfkam box vika oslo norway voice line fax line excerpt from the blurb this fine kubel clone from wolfkam very close copy the original and offers the same all weather and cross country capabilities its wwii forebears the robust fiberglass body kit very complete and includes all the hardware you will need except for your own donor car the phone number the entire dialing sequence call and ask for karl torum send cash international money order for complete literature package george happy share what info have other kit cars and kit car manufacturers looking for used partially completed porsche speedster convertible replica from intermeccanica appreciate any leads advice stories from any owners out there
rec.autos	plymouth sundance dodge shadow experiences daubendr nextwork rose hulman edu darren daubenspeck writes they are pretty much junk stay away from them they will replaced next year with all new models junk they made the lists for years due their excellent handling and acceleration they have been around since about they not the newest the lot and mileage about five eight mpg under the class leader you can get into shadow for the turbo bit more and droptop for how can car any good that has written the back with crooked letters year old had written hehhehehehahaha about silly crysler attemps make the label the back some their other cars appear like they are mercedes sorry couldn resist barryb
rec.autos	automotive crash test performance and maintenance stats wrote there resource available the consumer comparing all the makes and models automobiles trucks vans etc for survivability crash different severities also found very little objective data comparing different vehicles for handling pick braking expected maintenance etc recall years ago consumer reports annual buyer guide was much more informative those aspects than now thanks reply from someone looked little further and found what was looking for the april magazine has most the above things despite recent articles here the ratings looked pretty good for relative comparison purposes unfortunately the crash test comparisons didn include half the cars comparing anybody know how honda civic hatchbacks and toyota tercels fare accident boyd johnson nosc spectra com johnson san diego california intermittent newsfeed best and only selected groups opinions certainly don match those employer
rec.motorcycles	lexan polish article soe nodak edu wilken plains nodak edu scott wilken writes couple years ago replaced the stock windscreen interceptor with higher one from national cycle the thing happens made lexan can anyone recommend polish use that safe for lexan its starting show few scratches and like polish them out fast internet wilken plains nodak edu ama take chances uucp uunet plains wilken dod interceptor bitnet wilken plains suggest mcquires plastic polish will help somewhat but nothing will remove deep scratches without making worse than already mcquires will something for fine light stuff also suggest calling your local plastic shop calif tap plastic chain that carries most what needed for repair and sometimes replacement plastic bits telephone the bay area not sure how amenable they are shipping have found that they have several excellent products for cleaning and removing crap from windscreens and face shields also they have one called lift which works real well removing sticky stuffs such adhessives from plastic wihtout scratching same luck jonathan jefferies jeff mri com
rec.motorcycles	faq what the dod this periodic posting intended answer the frequently asked question what the dod posted the first each month with expiration time over month thus unless your site news software ill mannered this posting should always available this witdodfaq crossposted all four rec motorcycles groups attempt catch most new users and followups are directed rec motorcycles last changed feb add message from the kotl and bit halon version this collection was originally assembled lissa shoun from the original postings with lissa permission have usurped the title kotwitdodfaq any corrections additions bribes etc should aimed blgardne javelin sim com contents how get dod number blaine gardner dod dod road rider article bruce tanner dod what the dod john sloan dod the dod logo chuck rogers dod the dod this started all the denizen doom dod the dod anthem jonathan quist dod why you have killed blaine gardner dod the rec moto photo archive courtesy bruce tanner dod patches what patches blaine gardner dod letter from the ama museum jim rogers director dod the dod rules consensus other rec moto resources various keepers dod misc the rec moto reviews archive courtesy loki jorgenson dod updated stats rides info green dod and others how get dod number the most frequently asked question rec motorcycles what the dod then the second most frequently asked question must how get dod number that simple asking the keeper the list kotl accept substitue keepers for number you feeling creative and your favorite number hasn been taken already you can make request subject kotl approval warning non numeric non base number requests are likely earn flame from the kotl not that you won get but you will pay for and just one little tiny suggestion ask the kotl mail you just playing the lightning rod for flames you post the whole net and you look like clueless newbie too now you probably asking who the kotl already well john sloan notes below that about the only real secret left around here but few subtle hints can divulged first not myself nor anyone mentioned name this posting maybe though john was the original kotl second keeping with the true spirit unix the kotl first name only two letters long and can spelled entirely with hexadecimal characters the kotl shares his name with line oriented text utility third has occasionally been seen posting messages bestowing new dod numbers mostly boneheads with weenie mailers fourth there reason suspect the kotl being dead head newsflash message from the kotl once you have surmounted this intellectual pinnacle and electronically groveled the kotl please keep mind that the kotl does indeed work for living and occasionally must pacify its boss getting something done your request may languish mailer queue for gasp days perhaps even horrors week two during such times economic activity the part the kotl employers sending yet another copy your request will not speed processing the queue just makes longer verification this phenominon left excersize for the reader you suspect mailer problems least annotate subsequent requests with indication that former request was submitted lest you assigned multiple numbers what you think the kotl memorizes the list one more thing the kotl says that its telepathic powers aren what they used provide some information for the list will the typical dod list entry contains number name state country mail address for example green green east sun com while john mentions below that net access and bike are the only requirements for dod membership that not strictly true these days there are number denizens who lack one both blaine dances with bikers gardner blgardne javelin sim com denizens doom bruce tanner dod road rider august reprinted with bruce permission there group motorcyclists that gets together and does all the normal things that bunch bikers they discuss motorcycles and motorcycling beverages cleaning fluids baklavah balaclava caltrops helmets anti fog shields spine protectors aerodynamics three angle valve seats bird hits deer whistles good restaurants racing philosophy traffic laws tickets corrosion control personalities puns double entendres culture absence culture first rides and friendship they argue with each other and plan rides together the difference between this group and your local motorcycle club that although they get together just about everyday most have never seen each other face face the members this group live all over the known world and communicate with each other electronically via computer the computers range from laptops multi million dollar computer centers the people range from college and university students high tech industry professionals public access electronic bulletin board users currently rec motorcycles pronounced wreck dot motorcycles the file name for the group primary line meeting place carries about articles per month read estimated people most the frequent posters belong motorcycle club the denizens doom usually referred the dod the dod started when motorcyclist john nickerson wrote couple parodies designed poke fun motorcycle stereotypes fellow computer enthusiast bruce robinson posted these articles under the pen name denizen doom while later chuck rogers signed off dod keeper the flame bruce was then designated dod retroactively and course nickerson the originator the parodies was given dod the idea motorcycle club with organization meetings and rules appealed many john sloan dod became keeper the list issuing dod numbers anyone who wanted one date there have been almost memberships issued people all over the united states and canada well australia new zealand the united kingdom france germany norway and finland keeper the list sloan eventually designed club patch the initial run patches sold out immediately the profits from this went the american motorcycle heritage foundation another amhf fund raiser selling denizens doom pins members was started arnie skurow few months later again the project was successful and the profits were donated the foundation far the denizens have contributed over the ama museum plaque the name the denizens doom now hangs the motorcycle heritage museum often possible the dod ers crawl out from behind their crts and riding together turns out that the two largest concentrations dod ers are centered near denver boulder colorado and california silicon valley consequently two major events are the annual assault rollins pass colorado and the northern versus southern california joust the ride and feed bike trip over rollins pass followed big barbecue dinner the concept for the joust have riders from northern california ride south riders from southern california ride north meeting predesignated site somewhere the middle additional plan for hold official denizens doom homecoming conjunction with the ama heritage homecoming columbus ohio july though safe bet the the denizens doom and their collective communications hub rec motorcycles will not replace the more traditional motorcycle organizations for those who prowl the electronic pathways search two wheeled camaraderie great way for kindred spirits get together long may they flame live flame flame live centerbar this official motto the denizens doom refers the ease with which you can gratuitously insult someone electronically when you would not anything like that face face these insults are known flames issuing them called flaming flames often start when member disagrees with something another member has posted over the network typical sophisticated intelligent form calm reasoned rebuttal would something like what incredibly stupid statement you spandex clad poseur this will guarantee that five other people will reply defense the original poster describing just what they think you your riding ability and your cat the denizens doom the saga unfolds john sloan dod periodically the question what dod raised this one those questions the same class why the sky blue there god why there much suffering the world and why women inevitably tell you that you such nice guy just before they dump you the kinds questions steeped mysticism tradition and philosophy questions that have inspired research and discussion philosophers locker rooms motorcycle service bays and the halls academe for generations long long time ago computer time where anything over few minutes eternity and the halting problem really problem computer far far away the net topologically speaking two machines the same room atlanta might route mail one another via system chicago chap who wished remain anonymous but who was eventually assigned the dod membership wrote satire the various personalities and flame wars rec motorcycles and signed the denizen doom not wishing identify himself asked that stalwart individual who would the fullness time become dod post for him dod not really giving whit about what other people thought and generally being right thinking individual did flaming and other amusements followed who would become the holder dod membership thought this was the funniest thing seen while being the sort that pretty easily amused claimed membership the denizens doom motorcycle club and started signing his postings with his membership number perhaps readers rec motorcycles were struck with the vision motorcycle club with dues rules restrictions brand make model national origin motorcycle club organized electronically may well that readers were yearning become part something that would provide them with greater identity gestalt personality something which the whole was greater than the sum its parts could also that all computer nerds who wear black socks and sneakers and pocket protectors who just happen also love taking risks machines with awesome power weight ratios social outcasts who saw clique that would finally open minded enough accept members clear case self fulfilling prophesy the denizens doom motorcycle club was born club which the majority members have never met one another face face and perhaps like that way yet feel that they know one another pretty well well enough given some the electronic personalities the newsgroup club organized and run the loosest sense the word volunteers through the network via electronic news and mail with membership mailing list often used organize group rides amongst members who live the same region motto logo series photo albums circulating around the country organized dod club patches organized and even mtv style music video produced and distributed vhs where will end who knows will the dod start sanctioning races placing limits the memory and clock rate the board engine management computers will the dod organize poker runs where each participant collects hand hardware and software reference cards will the dod have rally which the attendees demand terminal room and least sized unix system only time will tell the dod has dues rules and requirements other than net access and love for motorcycles become member one need only ask although will admit that who you must ask one the few really good club secrets new members will receive via email membership number and the latest copy the membership list which includes name state and email address the denizens doom motorcycle club will live forever least until next year when may decided change the name live flame flame live the dod daemon seen the patches pins etc chuck rogers car druhi att com dod dod vvvvv rec motorcycles usenet the dod the denizen doom dod welcome one and all the flamingest most wonderfullest newsgroup all time wreck mudder disciples reak mudder disciples the names have been changes protect the guilty riders and innocent the bikes alike you think you recognize contorted version your name you don just your guilt complex working against you read and weep tune conversation between some our heros terrible barbarian extolling the virtues his hopalonga puff cane reverend muck mudgers and stompin fueling injection terrible this hopalonga the greatest beats bmws dead muck don mean preach terrible but lighten the bmw crowd mean like like riding yuka yuka fudgeo jammer but what the heck stompin way the bmw complete that all man terrible nahhhh you sounding like heritick ratatnack hey least selling his bmw and uses hopalonga intercorruptor not good puff cane should have been called woosh stream stompin you mean wee stream terrible waddya going call reinforcements stompin yehh man here comes arlow scarecrow and high tech let see what they say muck now men let try civil about this high tech and the bmw the greatest arlow other than love bmw terrible arlow burley thumpison the greatest all american ride you can own muck ahhh look you making terrible gag terrible what does bmw stand for anyway muck arlow high beats wilhelm terrible actually name terrible hmmm don know either muck say here comes chunky bear chunky hey hey hey smarter than your average bear terrible hey didn you drop your bmw chunky all right little booboo but left him behind mean even villy ogle flamed for that muck okay all makes mistakes out the blue the west coasters arrive led tread orange with dill snorkssy heritick ratatnack buck garnish snob rasseller and the perenial favorite hooter boobin brush heritick heya terrible how yer front back bias terrible not bad sold yer bmw heritick nahhh hooter hoot hoot buck nice tree hooter how get there hooter carbujectors from hell muck what carbujector hooter well ain made alumican made tilloslert muck ahh come down aren going flame honest dill well where race snob you know chunky know about about your drop and well don ride muck quiet tread bmw are the greatest supreme level headed opinion they even have luggage made sourkraut high too terrible heritick dill buck nahhhhh stompin tread high chunky snob yesss yessssss before this issue could resolved the hopalonga crew called more cohorts from the local area including polyanna stirrup and the infamous booster robiksen his cavortin polyanna well men the real bikers use stirrups their bikes like use hopalonga evening bird special helpful for getting the ole ventral stand terrible hopalonga are great like polyanna says and yuka yuka and sumarikis and kersnapis are good too booster hate cavortin all know know booster love cavortin all know know muck well what about mucho guzlers and lepurras snob tread nawwwwww muck what about tridump terrible isn that chewing gum muck auggggg waddda about pluck kity heritick heyya muck you tryin call the demon rider himself muck there more mudder disciples than arguing about make two more riders zoom the form pill turret and phalanx lifter pill out with dorsal stands and ventral stands forever phalanx hey don know about that and now even more west coasters pour road noblin hopalonga are the greatest maulled beerstein may you sit bikejector suddenly more people arrived from the great dark nurth kite lanolin hey bmw are great men robo nickie prefer motorcycle robot transformers personally more riders from the west coast come into the discussion aviator sourgas get burley thumpison with belted rigged frame guess gasket with bmw burley thumpison with roar and screech the latest mudder disciple thundered was none other that clean bikata her hopalonga cabammerxorn clean like look hopalonga are but only cabammerxorns muck why clean well like gotta banger nothin muck but only have banger clean good chunky sob some only have bangers clean inferior stompin hey look here proof bmw are better the bimmer boys burst into song singing beemer babe beemer babe give thrill road terrible polyanna maulled dill etc wadddoes bmw stand for heritick stompin snob chunky tread kite high arlow beat wilhem road terrible polyanna maulled dill etc don you mean bmw and the ensuing argument goes until the skies clouded over and the thunder roared and the greatest mudder disciple them all boomed out enough your bickering you are doomed riding bigot suction powered mini trikes for your childish actions all puhlease does this mean that all the wreck mudder disciples will riding mini trikes are our arguing heros doomed tune next week for the next gut wretching episode the yearning and riderless with its ever increasing cast characters where all technical problems will flamed over until well done next week episode will answer the question helmet not helmet will aired this heady material and viewer discretion advised script for the denizens doom anthem video jonathan quist dod scene sterile engineering office lone figure whom call chuck stands printer output bin wearing white cdc lab coat with mechanical pencils pocket protector editor note for some reason great deal amusement was had the first annual dod uni coastal ironhorse ride joust denizens referring each other chuck guess you had there wasn chuck didn want software systems analyst cow towing the whims machine and saying yessir nosir may have another sir mother made wanted live man life music slowly builds background riding nortons and triumphs through the highest mountain passes and the deepest valleys living the life motorcyclist doing donuts and evading the police terrorizing old ladies and raping small children eating small dogs for tea and large dogs for dinner short want denizen chuck rips off his lab coat revealing black leather jacket with fringe boots and cap scene simultaneously changes the top obviously assaulted rollins pass small throng hell angels sit their harleys the near background gunning their engines showering lookers with nails they turn donuts and leaking oil the tarmac chuck standing front heavily chromed fat boy chuck sings the tune the lumberjack song denizen and okay flame all night and ride all day hell angels echo chorus surprisingly heavy tenors denizen and okay flames all night and rides all day ride bike eat lunch the lavat wednesdays ride skyline running children down with glee chorus rides his bike eats his lunch goes the lavat wednesdays rides skyline running children down with glee chorus refrain cause denizen ride real fast name chuck somehow seems fit over rate the worst bad but like real good denizen and okay flame all night and ride all day chorus refrain denizen wear high heels and bright pink shorts full leathers and bra wish rode harley just like dear mama chorus refrain why you have killed well the first thing you have understand just case you managed read this far and still not figure out that the dod started joke and the words one denizen intends remain one sometime the far distant past hapless newbie asked what does dod stand for not the department defense naturally denizen who had watched the movie top gun few times too many rose the occasion and replied that classified could tell you but then have kill you and the rest history variation the security theme supply disinformation about what dod stands for notable contributions and contributers where known include daughters democracy dod doers donuts dancers despair dod debasers daughters dickweeds denver driveway death debauchers donuts dumpers dirtbikes note that this not comprehensive list variations appear limited only the contents one imagination dictionary file the rec moto photo archive first bit history this all started with ilana stern and chuck rogers organizing rec motorcycles photo album many copies were made and several sets were sent tours around the world only vanish unknown locations then bruce tanner decided that would appropriate for electronic medium have electronic photo album bruce has not only provided the disk space and ftp mail access but has taken the time scan most the photos that are available from the archive not only can you see what all these folks look like you can also gawk their motorcycles few non photo files are available from the server too they include the dod membership list the dod yellow pages the general rec motorcycles faq and this faq posting here are couple excerpts from from messages bruce posted about how use the archive via ftp cerritos edu via mail the address server cerritos edu the commands are given the body the message the current commands are dir and send given one per line the arguments the commands are vms style file specifications for rec moto photo the file spec dod file for example you can send dir dod send dod bruce tanner gif send dod dodframe and you get back mail messages directory listing uuencoded parts bruce tanner gif and the dodframe file ascii wildcards are allowed but maximum mail messages rounded the next whole file are send send dod gif would send files each not good idea bruce tanner tanner cerritos edu cerritos college norwalk cerritos tanner couple comments bruce has put quite bit effort into this why not drop him note you find the rec moto photo archive useful second since bruce has provided the server favor would kind you access after normal working hours california time patches what patches you may have heard mention various dod trinkets such patches pins and your reaction was probably want that sick perhaps that sick want well there some good news and some bad news the good news that there been amazing variety dod labeled widgets created the bad news that there isn anywhere you can buy any them this isn because any exclusivity attempt but simply because there dod store that keeps stock all the creations have been done individual denizens out their own pockets the typical procedure someone says thinking having dod frammitz made they cost with going the ama museum anyone want one then orders are taken and batch frammitzes large enough cover the pre paid orders produced and quickly consumed you want dod doodad act quickly the next time somebody decides one produce one yourself you see void that needs filling after all this anarchy action here possibly incomplete list known dod merchandise and perpetrators patches dod pins dod stickers dod motorcycle license plate frames dod shirts dod polo shirts dod zippo lighters dod ltf ftl belt buckles dod and patches dod second batch was done and rapidly consumed popular demand all profits have been donated the american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum june over dollars has been contributed the museum fund the dod you visit the museum you see large plaque the founders wall the name denizens doom usenet the world complete with dod pin here letter from the ama the dod regarding our contributions newsgroups rec motorcycles from arnie skurow arnie magnus acs ohio state edu subject letter from the motorcycle heritage museum date mon apr gmt received the following letter from jim rogers director the museum the other day dear arnie and all members the denizens doom congratulations and expressions gratitude are order for you and the denizens doom with your recent donation the total amount donated now behalf the amhf please extend heartfeld gratitude all the membership the denizens the club new plaque presently being prepared course everyone invited come the museum see the plaque that will installed our founders foyer the way will personally mount denizens club pin the plaque again thank you for all your support which means much the foundation the museum and the fulfillment its goals sincerely jim rogers director please post your computer bulletin board you all know even though the letter was addressed personally was meant for all you who purchased dod goodies that made this amount possible arnie the rules regulations bylaws the denizens doom motorcycle club from time time there some mention discussion flame about the rules the dod order fan the flames here the complete text the rules governing the dod rule there are rules rule ride other rec motorcycles information resources there are several general rec motorcycles resources that may may not have anything with the dod most are posted regular basis but they can also obtained from the cerritos ftp mail server see the info the photo archive above general rec motorcycles faq maintained dave williams cerritos filenames are faqn txt where currently the dod yellow pages listing motorcycle industry vendor phone numbers addresses maintained bob pakser cerritos filename yellow pages vnn where the rev number the list the dod membership maintained the keeper the list cerritos filename dod list this witdod faq surprise surprise maintained yours truly cerritos filename dod faq txt additions corrections etc for any the above should aimed the keepers the respective texts loki jorgenson loki physics mcgill has provided archive site for motorcycle and accessory reviews here excerpt from his periodic announcement the rec motorcycles reviews archives and world famous llama emporium contains veritable plethora bike and accessories reviews written rec moto readers based their own experiences these invaluable gems opinion highly valued for their potential reduce noise the list can accessed via anonymous ftp email server personal request anonymous ftp ftp physics mcgill under ftp pub dod email archive server reviews ftp physics mcgill review submissions questions reviews physics mcgill note there difference the addresses for review submission and using the email archive server ftp get started with the email server send email message with line containing only send help note your return address appears like domain subdomain host username your mail header include line like something similar path username host subdomain domain you are interested submitting review bike that you already own please there template the format that the reviews are kept more less available the archive site for those who have internet access but are unsure how anonymous ftp works example script available request reviews any motorcycle related accessory widget are welcome too updated stats rec motorcycles rides info some the info cited above various places tends moving target rather than trying catch every occurence just sticking the latest info down here estimated rec motorcycles readership news groups approximate dod membership kotl dod contributions the american motorcyclist association motorcycle heritage museum over arnie organized rides summer saw more organized rides with the joust its third year and the ride feed going strong but without the rollins pass trip due the collapse tunnel the east coast denizens got together for the right coast ride rcr with bikers from far north and far south meeting the blueridge mountains north carolina the pacific northwest crew organized the first great pacific northwest dryside gather gpndg another successful excuse for riding motorcycles and seeing the faces behind the names all have come know well thanks green for the above addition also worth mentioning are the first rec moto dirt ride held the moab canyonlands area southern utah riders from states showed riding everything from monster bmws itty bitty xrs almost legal strokes and though not official anything could official with this crowd rec moto event the vintage motorcycle races steamboat springs colorado always provides good excuse for netters gather there also been the occasional labor day gather utah european denizens have staged some gathers too your here reasonable rates blaine gardner evans sutherland arapeen drive slc utah blgardne javelin sim com bix blaine bix com half vehicles and all computers are kickstarted dod blaine gardner evans sutherland arapeen drive slc utah blgardne javelin sim com bix blaine bix com half vehicles and all computers are kickstarted dod
rec.motorcycles	oops ranck ranck joesbar edu wrote hate admit this and still mentally kicking myself for rode the brand new home last friday night miles rain and darkness problems got home and put the center stand the next day pushed off the center stand preparation for going over friend house pose you guessed got away from and landed its right side scratched the lower fairing cracked the right mirror and cracked the upper fairing damn stupid going cost get the local body shop fix and that after take the fairing off for them still that probably cheaper than the mirror alone bought replacement from bmw you got off cheap sister boyfriend was such incessant pain the ass about wanting ride bikes way jose that finally took him lindner bmw new canaan last fall where had seen nice used perfect condition after telling everyone the shop his norton war stories from fifteen years ago signing the liability waiver and getting his pre flight off went well not quite walked out pizza shop the street feeling good about myself made sister boyfriend happy and got the persistent wanker off ass for good heard the horrendous racket engine tortured its red line and then crash saw people running towards the obvious source the disturbance jeff laying under the bmw with the rear wheel spinning wildly and someone groping for the kill switch stared disbelief with slice hanging out mouth matty the shop manager slid beside and asked friend yours steve shit matty could have been worse that could been flhs jeff hadn made inches witnesses said lifted his feet before letting out the clutch and gravity got the best him jeff claimed that the clutch didn engage matty was quick while jeff was still stuttering embarrassed shock managed snatch jeff credit card for quick imprint and signature twenty minutes later when jeff color had paled flush matty presented him with estimate for busted right mirror and hairline crack the fairing that was for fixing the crack and masking the damaged area not new fairing could buy the bike not sure what happened later sister split with jeff shortly afterwards hook with another piece work except that matty told ran the charge through december and that went uncontested stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york usa
rec.motorcycles	miracle california article ppvof seven east sun com egreen east sun com writes bikers wave bikers the world over whether not harley riders wave other bikers one our favorite flame wars happy say that some harley riders our area are better than most that are flamed about here riding lowly sport bike less and girlfriend were the recipient less than twenty waves from group least twenty five harley riders was leading group about four sport bikes the time cbr vfr initiated some the waves but not all was perfect day and friendly riders despite some brand differences made all the better randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod
rec.motorcycles	more dod paraphernalia article pppnrinnitg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis wrote how about decal thicker vinyl how about geeky temporary tatoo mean why should the rubs exempt from little razzing john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	miracle california waving must say that the courtesy nod wave meet other bikers while riding does lot good things mood while riding lot fun itself there something really special about having someone say you hey great day for ride isn wonderful that can spend some time the road days like this with gesture was sunny today for the first time week took bike out for spin down the local salvage yard bike shop ran into about other people who were down there for similar reasons there this great stretch road the way down there side streets lotsa leaning bends went impromptu coffee and bullshit run down puyallup with batch people who didn know but who were kinda people nonetheless fellow commented while was admiring his bike hey not what you ride that you ride long has wheels and engine the same thing maven eskimo com internet maven mavenry altcit eskimo com usenet the maven the mavenry alternet
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding article wkbp eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what general rule thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what should just work with drink tonight don ride until tomorrow drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest these are fairly cautious guidelines and will work even you happen have low tolerance body mass think the cops and don you dare drink drive commercials will usually say drink general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well over the legal limit watch yourself mike mike muise mjmuise watstar uwaterloo quotes jokes electrical engineering university waterloo disclaimer fear
rec.motorcycles	insect impacts article hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes how the helmetless the same way people horseback not fast and they would probably enjoy eating bugs anyway every bit fast dirtbike the right terrain and eat flies thank you jeeps you supposed keep the windscreen then why does down snow skis bugs and most poeple who fast wear goggles most helmetless motorcyclists the question still stands how cruiser riders with negligible helmets stand being the highway mph buggy summer evenings helmetless goggleless green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	miracle california article dtx juts ccc amdahl com bws duts ccc amdahl com brian simmons writes now maybe this isn big deal some you but was raised the south and part cultural heritage waving passersby waved from the side the road passing cars when drove waved nodded least raised index finger from the steering wheel people waved drove was raised the south and can attest that this true why one particularly hot day was walking along the road some good ole boys truck tossed cold beer course they were going mph the time prove this wasn fluke happened again when was out riding wednesday unsolicited wave wow bikers wave bikers the world over whether not harley riders wave other bikers one our favorite flame wars green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	cultural enquiries article ugg cmptrc lonestar org irwin cmptrc lonestar org irwin arnstein writes article phuse sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article aber azw aber andy woodward writes two questions that fascinate check you local blue light special for sale lives why are rednecks called rednecks the origin the slang probably reference sunburned neck often obtained while performing honest work outdoors the neck specified distinguish these people whose shirt protected chest and back are pale from the elitist wealthy who their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation badge leisure time overdo and get full body sunburns more like those who use their backs instead their minds make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant anything outside their group level understanding tuba irwin honk therefore computrac richardson irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod that sounds like awfully closed minded intolerant attitude not redneck but try walk their shoes first stereotypes are usually very limited value seen many ignorant self righteous open minded new age lovers the great planet earth have ignorant red necks don see correlation don believe that the redneck culture you can call that necessarily inferior superior any other gotta have beer making too much sense next thing you know preaching tolerance and conservative jack waters dod don fear the thief the night its the one that comes the afternoon when still asleep that worry about
rec.motorcycles	carrying crutches was living previous article pooder rchland vnet ibm com don fearn says when broke right leg two places not motorcycle accident car accident who woulda thunk put crutches gretchen rear rack getting the metal rod pulled out friday and going back the crutches for six weeks think crutches the handlebars sound more aesthetically pleasing how did you attach them when got knee rebuilt got back the street bike asap put the crutches the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back long way just make sure they tied down tight front and problemo fast take chances mike
rec.motorcycles	kawi zephyr was vision gpz article apr pro haven cts com shadow pro haven cts com writes apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug writes the way the short lived zephyr essentially gpz why was the zephyr discontinued heard something about problem with the name but never did hear anything certain don think the sold very well most north americans who ride standard rather than sport bike usually want something bigger people walk into the dealership look the and the and say might well spring the extra bucks for the bigger engine bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	must daemon child previous article svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda says article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes wait minute here noemi and satan wow and seemed like such nice boy rcr too and noemi makes think cuddle not kotl you talking bout the same noemi know she makes think big bore hand guns and extreme weirdness this babe rode csr across the desert and borrowed the death ride don fuck with her man your making big mistake fast take chances mike
rec.motorcycles	identify this bike for article apr ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas coburn writes first thought was hawk modified two brothers racing but did not think that they made this huge tank for additionally someone who was told quite firmly honda sales service weenies that there larger tank available for the hawk have hawk with the puny gal tank very interested know there any decent aftermarket solution love have least gal tank curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	cultural enquiries article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes article mar aber azw aber andy woodward wrote two questions that fascinate you are easily fascinated why are rednecks called rednecks why are you called welch because they are often south southeastern farmers who necks are permanently damaged from sunburn the sun you know what that never sets the british empire and never shines wales this despicable lie was sunny july from made note diaries are never wrong why they ride harleys they don they drive pick trucks and shoot bikers please enlighten when visited last the only answers got were incoherent splutterings you deserve more john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply you any chance ride harley just feeling how your neck calamine lotion good told getting bored with winding americans its like bombing fish barrel haaaaaaaaaaave niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay andy
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article zkcl fgc cso uiuc edu eric cso uiuc edu cbr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq having this awful time debating with someone why push the right handle motorcycle foward when turning left and can explain well least why this happens please help post the faq need convert him eric hmm did this would able take the outriggers off
rec.motorcycles	demento article mar brown edu jdk brown edu jennet kirschenbaum writes haven heard demento years does anyone know plays any stations around prov such wbcn love pay for shipping and recording the show too the best boring old farts prefer the breeze salt lake city wonderfully catatonic wanted take the whole station back with flight bag especially the girlie with the sexy voice who did the morning show
rec.motorcycles	pink tools was what with girlfriends and motorcycles only just prevented myself from diving this one
rec.motorcycles	cultural enquiries article pcl bigboote wpi edu ravi vanilla wpi edu ravi narayan writes previous article groh fsu edu said azw aber andy woodward writes why they ride harleys cause can you sure are lucky told that there are very few people out there who can actually get their harley ride the name tod johnson jumps the indiscreet mind laz whats you used ride sig piece mail with fool one ravi narayan wpi end and flames the other suzukigs phaedra ravi you need harley have lots spare here all the yuppies bought the best couple years ago pose the wine bar they rode mile and walked the rest called taxi home and went back the porsche there are loads going cheap with about miles the clock takes while coast halt cheers andy you get better class people anyway
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding article apr galaxy gov bclarke galaxy gov writes article wkbp eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes drinking riding what general rule thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what should just work with drink tonight don ride until tomorrow even half beer will increase your confidence while slugging your reactions and judgement not much maybe but its hard enough stay alive out there for any length time without stacking the odds not ride after any
rec.motorcycles	living article apr unbvm csd unb unb writes article apr eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov phil stone writes thanks for the compliments allan but think you sidestepped point there didn say didn take any chances sheesh getting out bed the morning risky sprained ankle damn right was late for climbing meet one morning got out bed without bothering that right foot was still asleep reminded folding underneath with crunching metatarsals lucky the brake the right but got funny looks riding thru london with one leg held aloft climbing wasnt problem the best splint the world tight climbing shoe
rec.motorcycles	protective gear article apr galaxy gov bclarke galaxy gov writes article wkfs eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what protective gear the most important got good helmet shoei and good thick jacket leather gold and pair really cheap leather gloves what should next purchase better gloves boots leather pants what you can remember tuck properly the bits that are going take most punishment with the gear you have will probably your feet then hips and knees get boots then trousers the gloves come last long you the self control pull your arms when you tuck not get good gloves first hands are very easily wrecked you put one down steady your fall mph the other bits heal easier once you are fully covered you longer tuck just lie back and enjoy the ride best all take mean all the contradictory answers you get
rec.motorcycles	new dod listing membership there new dod listing get copy use one these commands finger motohead colorado edu mail motohead colorado edu you send mail make sure your from line correct man vacation will not try all fix mail problems unless they are mine and may just publicly tell the world what bad mailer you have scan the mail find bounces but will not waste time answering your questions requests for those you that want update your entry get contact the kotl only the kotl can make changes stop bothering with inane mail will not tell what dod ask rec motorcycles not give out the laszlo nemeth laszlo colorado edu hey tool works yeah you can quote that from elef sun com flashbacks free drugs dod uid
rec.motorcycles	round two article serval net wsu edu bill wsuaix csc wsu edu william johns writes good sam got bricks delivered first class postage their door their expense bet they would change their policies about mailing lists about who can use their facilities quickly and the lord god almighty parted the sky and make personal appearance their board directors meeting they would also change their policies the odds are about equal curious how many bricks will have send before this situatiion cleared satisfaction suspect about shall see you extremely lucky you ever get one through green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	another question about synthetic engi article apr porthos bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson writes two years ago went work for conrail mechanic the emd and power units train engines they never ever change the oil just the filters remember seeing artical large engine oil requirements and one the ways prolonging the life the oil was run through heated presurized chamber allow water and volitiles boil off this made such long term usage oil practical isn the discovery channel great curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	identify this bike for saw bike today and want know what lets begin saying that its whole rear end was definately hawk additionally had cbr style tank full fairing and only tach now first thought was hawk modified two brothers racing but did not think that they made this huge tank for additionally the gauges were certainly not from hawk they looked much more like gauges overall the bike looked like except for the rear single sided swingarm and wheel there were straight from the hawk what did see for any you boulder doders saw parked the engineering center today white with light green stripes nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	must daemon child article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes wait minute here noemi and satan wow and seemed like such nice boy rcr too and noemi makes think cuddle not kotl dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com bad the bone concours mmmmmmmmmm bad the bone ring ding woops universally feared ama dod cog chicago denizen warcry
rec.motorcycles	speeding ticket from chp paraphrase initial post can fight speeding ticket court reply fight your ticket california edition david brown berkeley nolo press the second edition out but not ucb library good luck let know how goes abd
rec.motorcycles	for sale brand new top end chambers clean black paul please not contact this email address contact the seller cheers dave
rec.motorcycles	what with cats and dogs article gate gpd ryang pgh ryang ryang pgh robert yang writes sorry just feeling silly rob need appologise matter fact this reminds bring something have found consistant with dogs most the time they not like having and bike anywhere near them and will chase bite and kill instructor once said was because the sound from bike was painfull their ears silly this seams other options have arrizen net wisdom curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	auction diana bra article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes next thing you know see bikes with geeky stickers parked outside the local white wine quiche and fern bar hey like quiche even did have look your note spell assumed correctly really you sniff tough guys are all the same mommy curtis making fun ferns again
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding article wkbp eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what general rule thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what should just work with drink tonight don ride until tomorrow put vote for the latter bike takes lot involvement and for one not want any accident fault remember one artical where the reviewer tried the radio the bike not having had one any his stated that the bike tended faster when the music was good agree having felt like this self and this was not physical imparement like drinking just the emotional lift from music first rule ecology there never only one side effect ride well curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	miracle california waving fellow bikers stuff deleted when first started riding street bikes was told was common recieve give wave fellow biker what astounded moving the left coast from the right coast was actually get waves from harley riders really remember the first time truely memorable event might have something with the refuse bring that again thanks evo for being harley rider that waves first curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article zkcl fgc cso uiuc edu eric cso uiuc edu cbr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq eric like there faq for this curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	must daemon child heading out the highway did finally buy bike passanger jeff andle dod ree maine maine edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college please reply via mail since followup might expire before see the net again
rec.motorcycles	kawi zephyr was vision gpz don know about the dinky little zephyr but the now the looks alot like the one drooled over tri sports topsham was looker yes mercury axed the zephyr name guess lot aging republicans wanted zephyr and confused the mercury with the kawasaki well they better off with the kawasaki anyways maybe shake the stick out their asses and make libertarians out them the gpz zephyr the only gpz seen had the ball buster gas tank profile not the smooth saddle gas tank transition motorcyclist claims the zephyr the modernized from the seventies jeff andle dod ree maine maine edu intermittentnet access arranged through bowdoin college please reply via mail since followup might expire before see the net again
rec.motorcycles	split was insect impacts hpcc rec motorcycles cookson mbunix mitre org cookson apr all right people this inane bug wibbling just getting much propose split off new group rec motorcycles nutrition deal with the what with squashed bugs thread dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb was worried about who saw never get vfr nekkid all green dod bianchi limited what haven you heard about cross posting leave intact and simply ignore the basenotes and responses which have zero interest for being your stature and discriminating taste yesterday while lonoak wasp hit faceshield with just enough force glue between eyes but not enough kill the legs were frantically wiggling away and found that rather shall say distracting flicked off and wiped off the residue the next gas stop greenfield btw lonoak leads from into king city although took metz from into greenfield graeme harrison hewlett packard communications components division trimble san jose gharriso hpcc corp com dod
rec.motorcycles	tools tools tools article cmu edu jfriedl cmu edu writes behanna phoenix syl nec com chris behanna writes while the subject has anyone else noticed that the deep well craftsman sae deep well set too small fit bolt nut when took the socket for exchange every one the deep well sockets the rack had the exact same problem not imply that you didn but since you didn mention did you measure the size your test nut with callipers were all three cross lengths more than seen bolt heads and even few nuts which got slightly thicker further down toward the basa sort trapizodial cross section that did not however the sample bolt took the store fit rather well the following open end wrench box end wrench point normal socket take that meaning bolt head but several people have pointed out and noting the tool faq writing case anyone will want lifetime guarantee doesn necessiarly mean better tools yup socket want the thing fit later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec pending delivery agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	oops jack rogers waters jrwaters eos ncsu edu wrote article ppejb vtserf edu ranck joesbar edu ranck writes well least damaged own bike had done someone else property really feel like jerk just feel stupid don mean cynic but you may want reconsider having the body work done right away the same type thing may happen again wait till you get used the bike etc well waited whole week take the pastic bits off and take them the body shop that long enough bill ranck ranck joesbar edu
rec.motorcycles	the quest for horndom article apr research nec com behanna phoenix syl nec com chris behanna writes article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes laughing please have few questions first all need relay are there different kinds and what kind should get both horns are volt did some back the eyelids calculations last night and figure these puppies suck about amps work maximum efficiency the cager might need shovel clean out his seat assumptions dba one meter neglecting solid angle considerations and end effects and other acoustic niceties from the shape the horn itself this power output watts watts volts approx amps yes get relay yes tell how you did want the later post summary after get enough information include tips like how know when the monkey pulling your leg shouldn monkey have bonded and insured before they work bikes jack waters dod don fear the thief the night its the one that comes the afternoon when still asleep that worry about
rec.motorcycles	tools tools tools what the flank drive everyones talking about
rec.motorcycles	cultural enquiries article phuse sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article aber azw aber andy woodward writes two questions that fascinate check you local blue light special for sale lives why are rednecks called rednecks the origin the slang probably reference sunburned neck often obtained while performing honest work outdoors the neck specified distinguish these people whose shirt protected chest and back are pale from the elitist wealthy who their idiotic quest for darker skin pigmentation badge leisure time overdo and get full body sunburns more like those who use their backs instead their minds make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant anything outside their group level understanding tuba irwin honk therefore computrac richardson irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod
rec.motorcycles	hats update patches too article xhfg fringe rain com dean fringe rain com dean woodward writes got orders for about hats the expensive part not surprisingly going having the patches made with setup fee dean there old engineering saying concerning inventions and wheels contact done several runs patches and there some patch making company out there with the artwork already set and paid for green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	chain lube was consensus chain cleaning article apr elektro cmhnet org charlie elektro cmhnet org charlie smith writes article mar linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes anyone try the spray chain wax that was reviewed one the moto rags last month yeah sprayed all over rear drive shaft housing and didn seem make any quieter all didn you read the instructions first you supposed spray your ears you won distracted the chain noise the other bikes around you that why called chain wax chuck rogers car torreys att com car cbnewsj att com
rec.motorcycles	bmw nostalgia question from neophyte one step further you could write roland slabon pres the vintage bmw motorcycle owners ltd box exeter new hampshire and send you copy the bimonthly rag with info where send your bucks want join far the price beemers varies wildly from low around for unrestored bike that still runs like for restored don listen that bull about the old bmw not being good enough ride todays world hell riding single from mississippi the bmw moa national rally oshkosh wisconsin the july this year sincerely craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador bmw vintage bulletin tech editor dod real bmw have round tail lights and roller cranks
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article apr unbvm csd unb unb writes article zkcl fgc cso uiuc edu eric cso uiuc edu cbr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq having this awful time debating with someone why push the right handle motorcycle foward when turning left and can explain well least why this happens please help post the faq need convert him ummm you push the right handle your bike while speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has problem when really methinks somethings wrong with your bike perhaps you meant pull pushing the right side handlebars will send left should really bike turn right wonder you need that faq had send sure others will take the slack andy infante sometimes wish that people would put little more emphasis bmw upon the observance the law than they upon dod enforcement calvin coolidge opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	cultural enquiries article apr aber azw aber andy woodward writes getting bored with winding americans its like bombing fish barrel little children the market that the irish hard keep all you not really english types straight michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	another question about synthetic engi article apr spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes article news arc nasa gov howland noc arc nasa gov curt howland writes castrol syntec does not contain teflon gets its greater lubrication bonding the metal surfaces the engine thus making the metal ride the polymer rather than having metal metal contact not know this also reduces the acid contact with the metal but seems likely just becase something forms resin does not mean that not teflon based the ptfe slick not teflon either but still teflon based teflon dupont owned tradename for ptfe slick does indeed use dupont teflon though some other brands such stuff may use imported ptfe another brand teflon being trade name should always capitalized dupont disclaims any benefits ptfe the oil supply internal combustion engines btw dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com bad the bone concours mmmmmmmmmm bad the bone ring ding woops universally feared ama dod cog chicago denizen warcry
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes article apr unbvm csd unb unb writes article zkcl fgc cso uiuc edu eric cso uiuc edu cbr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq having this awful ummm you push the right handle your bike while speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has problem when really methinks somethings wrong with your bike perhaps you meant pull pushing the right side handlebars will send left should really bike turn right wonder you need that faq had send sure others will take the slack andy infante sometimes wish that people would put little more emphasis lord this where came obcountersteer for some reason discovered that pulling the wrong side the handlebars rather than pushing the other wrong side you get meaning provides feeling greater control for example rather than pushing the right side lean right turn right lonny pulling the left side least until get leaned over the right feels more secure and less counter intuitive maybe need psychological help obcountersteer anyone else find ironic that the weekend and night msf class they don mention countersteering until after the first day riding tommy mcguire who going hit his head door frames the rest the evening leaning into those tight turns mcguire utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com will append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information identifying personal and independent ibm
rec.motorcycles	living article odin corp sgi com amc crash wpd sgi com allan mcnaughton writes article mar eos arc nasa gov phil eos arc nasa gov phil stone writes alan nothing personal but object the all that statement was many those rides that alan describing pushing the envelope does not necessarily equal taking insane chances moreover two riders are riding together the same speed one might riding well beyond his abilities and the other may have safety margin left come phil you excellent rider but you still take plenty chances don tell that just your skill that keeps you from getting wacked there lot luck thrown there too you very good rider and very lucky one too hope your luck holds allan know the circumstances several your falls the ride when you fell while was next behind you you made error judgement riding too fast when you knew the road was damp and you reacted badly when you were surprised oncoming car that crash was due factors that were subject your control won deny that there combination luck and skill involved for each but seems that you blaming bad luck for more your own pain than warranted chuck karish karish mindcraft com karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	recommended bike for tall beginner article sdcc ucsd edu jtozer sdcc ucsd edu john tozer writes looking for advice what bikes should check out tall and find legs hips uncomfortably bent most the bikes have ridden not many admittedly are there any bikes out there built for taller rider there plenty legroom the kawasaki klr bit short the braking department for spirited street riding but enough for dirt and for less agressive street stuff chuck karish karish mindcraft com karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding what general rule thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what should just work with drink tonight don ride until tomorrow this thread brings back memorys expensive day traffic court few years ago while was waiting turn state case and plea why was going cage had the opportunity listen some the creative excuses offered the judge others after listening number well was passing very slow truck that suddenly speed versions decided that the judge had heard just about every story the book and then some was less than impressed with any them this young rather burley looking guy had his docket read rather drill sargent looking ohio state highyway patrol trooper was clocked riding motorcycle speed mph mph zone was also noted that the defendant motorcycle rider had alcohol his breath but was not cited for this offence the judge looked over his half glasses purched the end his nose and said his sternest voice well son those are some pretty fast speeds riding motorcycle what you have say for your self well sir meekly the defenant replied just was over buddys and had couple beers and was way home offered nothing more less just had couple beers and was doing mph his way home the judge moved the simplicity the response fined him the maximum this case plus court costs course and ordered him attend remedial drivers training school isn america great bill mohrman motorola sps columbus disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	how big too big was bike azw aber andy woodward writes azw weight and size over rough roads definite starts azw drift you aint going catch leavitt umd edu bill says mrb you riding hard enough for this concern then yes mrb lighter bike more beneficial cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes you not riding hard enough for this concern are you having any fun sure never been much racerboy anybody who attended the minibike spectacular can attest get great deal satisfaction riding fast yet now fast overly concerned about not being able maintain clean line and while still known slide the occasional tire much prefer stay just the sticky side that line found that don heal well used days yore btw how the knee mrb anyway more likely catch than not necessarily mrb tires road surface and rider ability are much more important criteria actually big horsepower just likely get you out trouble when starts drift your puny body mass pushing stuff well placed push from horsepower can lot straighten change beneficial way the trajectory the bike rider system that quite true another plus for bike the original thread think damn circular threads fast take chances mike bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning suzibago leavitt umd edu little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	protective gear article wkfs eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear the most important got good helmet shoei and good thick jacket leather gold and pair really cheap leather gloves what should next purchase better gloves boots leather pants what condom during wone the times had over accident was asked was wearing protection responces was yes was wearing condom laz
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes article apr unbvm csd unb unb writes article zkcl fgc cso uiuc edu eric cso uiuc edu cbr writes would someone please post the countersteering faq having this awful time debating with someone why push the right handle motorcycle foward when turning left and can explain well least why this happens please help post the faq need convert him ummm you push the right handle your bike while speed and your bike turns left methinks your bike has problem when pushing the right side handlebars will send left sure others will take the slack yes quite sure they will axel
rec.motorcycles	why won getting low rider this year article mar esac uucp prahren esac uucp peter ahrens writes article mar cbnewsj att com car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes had planned get this year but instead took delivery brand new male offspring last monday sounds like you should have been doing your planning last year given harley davidson product delivery lag and the human gestation cycle perhaps any planning all hiya pete still got that cbx nice hear from you again and yes finally did figure out why this happens and have taken steps ensure storkish repetition that would low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences ouch this brings mind one the recommendations the hurt study because the rear the gas tank close proximity highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt recommended that manufacturers build the tank reduce the step function provided when the rider body slides off the seat and onto the gas tank the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn think really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice heart their design bikes like the cbr and the gts chuck rogers car torreys att com car cbnewsj att com
rec.motorcycles	speeding ticket from chp article agate berkeley edu downey homer berkeley edu allen downey writes fight your ticket california edition david brown berkeley nolo press the second edition out but not ucb library good luck let know how goes daniel matejka writes the fourth edition out too but probably also not very high ucb gotta have that list article mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes riding work last week via hwy from suisun was pulled over chp black and white the gas station jameson canyon road the officer stated looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going least just said okay and did not agree disagree anything said can you beat this ticket personally think your duty citizen make much trouble possible for them maybe they give and leave alone someday soon the cop was certainly within his legal rights nail you guessing your speed brown the author fight your ticket mentions oakland judge who convicted speeder the officer testimony that the driver car sounded like was being driven excessive speed you can pay off the state and your insurance company you can take court and creative personally never won that way seen anyone win but the judge always listens politely and haven seen that many attempts you could try the argument that since bikes are shorter than the cars whose speed the nice officer accustomed guessing they therefore appear further away and their speed appears greater than actually left out step two but you get the idea you can make convincing theoretically you supposed win never tried proving the cop was mistaken did get see some other poor biker try was mixing various facts like the maximum acceleration cop car and the distance which the cop had been pacing him and end demonstrating that couldn possibly have been going fast the cop had suggested brought diagrams and calculator was prepared lost keep mind cops this all the time and their word better than yours maybe though they don guess how fast bikes are going all the time besides this guy didn speak english very well and ended absolutely confounding the judge the cop and everyone else the room who been recently criminalized some twit with gun and quota ahem better now maybe have won had his presentation been more polished maybe not did get applause
rec.motorcycles	dod oficial newbie bike choice article pplsc news ysu edu yfn ysu edu john daker writes propose that the official dod newbie bike choice the nothing like giving newbies land rocket practice offers enough power that novice rider can safely accelerate out harms way situations where more experienced rider would use complex avoidance manouvers yup accelerate right into the back wheel truck how the easiest way get newbies the road regards ted university toronto computer engineering powerusersgroupchairman fzr taking ride with best friend dod
rec.motorcycles	cultural enquiries more like those who use their backs instead their minds make their living who are usually ignorant and intolerant anything outside their group level understanding there seems some confusion between rednecks and white trash the confusion understandable there substantial overlap between the two sets let see can clarify rednecks primarily use their backs instead their minds make living usually somewhat ignorant somebody standards anyway because they have never held education above basic reading writing math skills that important their eventual vocation note did not say stupid just ignorant they might stupid but then are some high percentage any group white trash white trash fit the stereotype referred the word nigger better than any black person ever met only with the added bonus that white trash are mean hell father genuinely lazy not just out work under qualified good for nothing dishonest white people who are mean snakes the squeal like pig boys deliverance may may not have been rednecks but they were sure hell white trash white trash are assuredly intolerant anything outside their group level understanding rednecks may may not curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	protective gear article apr hydro jlevine hydro writes article wkfs eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear the most important got good helmet shoei and good thick jacket leather gold and pair really cheap leather gloves what should next purchase better gloves boots leather pants what would for the gloves there not whole lot that you can life you have skin your hands yup ruins your sex life tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	twit bicyclists was joy article apr spectrum xerox com cooley xerox com writes assholes hope you are all just kidding because exactly that kind attidue that gets many motorcyclist killed look the leather clad poseurs watch how they swirve and swear pretend that they don exist while change lanes you really find necesary wreck others enjoyment the road boost your ego then truely you who are the poseur aaron disgruntled volvo drivers what are they rebelling against steatopygias doh that ain hottentot sesquipedalian ama dod there ain more
rec.motorcycles	question arai quantum article zqel uky edu amir uky edu amir sadr writes they way want however have the following problem chin hangs out from the bottom the helmet curious know whether would still have this problem were switch the extra large size particular can anyone tell for certain the outer shell the arai quantum size large any different larger rounder etc than the same helmet size large the inner padding foam the large such that one head fits little deeper the helmet and thus one chin would not stick out this true for the very old arthur fulmer helmets that have namely chin hangs out little from the bottom the large helmet and not all from the large but the large not snug the large the dealer willing replace the helmet additional cost shipping but want make sure that the large fact little bigger linered such that chin will not hang out and how much looser will head fit the large anyone has recent experience with this helmet please let hear mail from you asap thank you much amir not sure about the helmet but for chin questions you might want write jay leno tonight show burbank calif good luck steatopygias doh that ain hottentot sesquipedalian ama dod there ain more
rec.motorcycles	living article apr rchland ibm com pooder rchland vnet ibm com don fearn writes article apr unbvm csd unb unb writes sprained right ankle once and kept riding when broke right leg two places had knee surgery while was the navy back the doctors put cast from ass ankle only method transportaion was dohc honda the time found that sliding back the seat could use heel did mention was left leg operate the shift would hook the end the lever with heel and lift entire leg for shifts and just drop leg the lever for the down shifts forget nutral took way too much finesse for the leg the crutches were bungee corded the right side the bike with the top resting the passenger peg and the right turnsignal sticking through the hole the crutches every other day when rode the miles physical therapy tourture sessions the doc would give hell about riding bike much less riding condition didn stop tho btw this the same bike assembled second floor barracks room and rode down the stairs when was completed not paid have opinion speed suzuki dod
rec.motorcycles	speeding ticket from chp article dmatejkac dmb netcom com dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka writes article agate berkeley edu downey homer berkeley edu allen downey writes fight your ticket california edition david brown berkeley nolo press the second edition out but not ucb library good luck let know how goes daniel matejka writes can you beat this ticket personally think your duty citizen make much trouble possible for them maybe they give and leave alone someday soon the cop was certainly within his legal rights nail you guessing your speed brown the author fight your ticket mentions oakland judge who convicted speeder the officer testimony that the driver car sounded like was being driven excessive speed cough choke what cop gave ticket for sounding like was speeding probably show court without lawyer simply because sounding like speeding ridiculous was found guilty appeal and then show with lawyer cop doesn one vascar from car plane radar lidar other electronic speed measuring device pace and within mph the limit court can accept cop seeing going excessively fast like over the limit but looked like was going zone not beyond reasonable doubt granted may well lose the case but measured eye take court for sure axel
rec.motorcycles	protective gear article wkfs eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes question for the day what protective gear the most important got good helmet shoei and good thick jacket leather gold and pair really cheap leather gloves what should next purchase better gloves boots leather pants what what your favorite body part blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	why won getting low rider this year article apr cbnewsj att com car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes article mar esac uucp prahren esac uucp peter ahrens writes that would low drag bars and way rad rearsets for the that the ergonomic constraints would have contraceptive consequences ouch this brings mind one the recommendations the hurt study because the rear the gas tank close proximity highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt recommended that manufacturers build the tank reduce the step function provided when the rider body slides off the seat and onto the gas tank the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn think really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice heart their design bikes like the cbr and the gts dunno old the tank seat junction was nice and smooth but you were travel all the way forward you collect the top triple clamp sensitive area hate have make the choice but think prefer the gas tank blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	speeding ticket from chp interesting fight the ticket first off there chance the cop won show secondly does show you should point out that lied purgered the ticket why beleive that charged with going more than mph that the posted speed more severe ticket you couldn have ossibly been going right max queernet org max rochlin uunet sgi unpc max protect from what want
rec.motorcycles	eating and riding was drinking and riding what the feeling about eating and riding went out riding this weekend and got little carried away with some pecan pie the whole ride back felt sluggish was certainly much more alert the ride sure others have the same feeling but the strangest thing that eating usually the turnaround point weekend rides from now little snack will much rather have get that full sluggish feeling closer home paul paul nakada oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod
rec.motorcycles	protective gear article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes still looking for good gloves myself the ones have now are too loose when you find some new ones suggest donating the ones you have now the lautrec family france grin michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	goldwing performance hpcc rec motorcycles stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford apr article transfer stratus com cdodson beast cac stratus com craig dodson wrote from the summary the back motorcyclist they run the about mph interestingly enough this winnebago bikes faster than any the harleys listed depreciates much faster too john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply the hit the traps according cycle magazine yeah they depreciate faster than harleys for the first couple years then they bottom out got miles the odometer for just under may and would ask for now with almost miles onnit that about what new would cost think the originally sold for brand new not sure that the case then depreciated over years mere big fat hairy deal based what know harleys tend depreciate your monies far more than the initial depreciation the bike itself when comes parts and service all this about harleys holding their value better doesn always wash away the knocks them such being much slower according peter egan the just released cycle world his flhs real dog when pillions his wife all that money for dog that doesn defecate much graeme harrison hewlett packard communications components division trimble san jose gharriso hpcc corp com dod
rec.motorcycles	data logging greetings can someone steer towards sources information vehicle data logging systems particular would like build buy little both system that small enough fit motorcycle and will take input from various sensors pressure lvdt acceleration rpm sensor digitize and record for later analysis please email any info get anything interesting compile and get the net thanks marty capadona marty carter boeing com seattle gpz hawk ama msf wmrra omrra forget what said
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding norman hamer maven eskimo com wrote what general rule thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what should just work with drink tonight don ride until tomorrow depends how badly you want live the faa says eight hours bottle throttle for pilots but recommends twenty four hours the fars specify blood alcohol level legally drunk think which more than twice strict dwi minimums btw alcohol metabolizes your blood fixed rate one beer hour will keep your blood alcohol level barely street legal coffee hyperventilation and other bar tricks won speed nor will they fool ranger stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york usa
rec.motorcycles	fork seals about undertake changing the fork seals clymer manual says need the following tools from kawasaki handle looking thing illustration some type adapter for the end the handle illustration this tool and the manual just refers the kawasaki tool oil seal and bearing remover how necessary are these tools considering the dealers around here didn have the clymer manual fork seals and turn signal assembly stock really doubt they have these tools stock and really like get this done this week any help would appreciated always vela acs oakland edu psgi todd the only bike sold without todd doolittle red line troy dod
rec.motorcycles	bmw info wanted someone selling his bmw think miles for says great condition and perfect shape got the hard saddle bags too this good deal seems like awesome deal assuming that everything says true thanks jae jae cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle courier summer job article poj inn west west sun com gaijin ale japan sun com john little nihon sun repair depot writes article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes think found the ultimate summer job dangerous involves motorcycles requires high speeds traffic and pays well question follows has anyone here done this sort work what was your experience stuff deleted get good atoz type indexed streetmap for all the areas you likely work always carry plenty black plastic bin liners check with the local fire department buddy firefighter and they have these small map books which are amazing they are compact easy use folding they even have cross reference section which you match your current cross streets with the cross streets you want and details the quickest route they gave extra they had laying around but then again know all those people not really sure they are supposed give sell them the police may also have something similar john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan vela acs oakland edu psgi todd the only bike sold without todd doolittle red line troy dod
rec.motorcycles	help with backpack summer approaches the usual preparations are being made was thinking going for some overnite camping trips the local state forests for that was planning get backpack rucksack the next question how shall carry the thing the bike given the metal frame and all have big backrest approx high and was hoping that would able bungee cord the backpack the backrest any one have any experiences such experimentation taking the idea further what would happen the backpack was fully loaded with full load lbs the load distribution going very severly affected how will the bike perform with such load clinging the back rest really secure with shifting still increase chances surfing collective wisdom requested really can afford leather pants boots and jeans are all can make with what you think the knee protectors which rollerbladers use the one bean and like sells that bad idea are there any equivalents dod would give right arm ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	bmw for sale this posted for friend please reply dschick holonet net bmw for sale asking best offer this bike has full faring and great for touring commuting has about miles and has been well cared for the bike comes with one hard saddle bag the left one the right side bag was stolen harro tank bag the large one and ungo box alarm interested then please drop line das
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding mjmuise watstar uwaterloo mike muise writes article wkbp eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what general rule thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what should just work with drink tonight don ride until tomorrow drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest took alcohol server class few years ago what the hey employer paid for were told that the drink hour rule was written with proof booze and pound person mind drinking cuervo gold weighing obviously will get drunk faster than the theoretical person mentioned above worse imagine rum coke made with bacardi mind you all that for getting too drunk drive car may only have been riding for month but plan evenings with very rigid exclusive statement either don drink don ride pretty simple these are fairly cautious guidelines and will work even you happen have low tolerance body mass think the cops and don you dare drink drive commercials will usually say drink general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well over the legal limit watch yourself mike sorry mike have believe that that policy works best fertilizer even all you plan drive home nice and safe your cage mike muise mjmuise watstar uwaterloo quotes jokes electrical engineering university waterloo disclaimer fear dean woodward you want step into world dean fringe rain com socio psychotic state bliss virago guns roses world dod
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes article mjmuise watstar uwaterloo mjmuise wats think the cops and don you dare drink drive commercials will usually say drink general but after about drinks and hrs you could very well over the legal limit watch yourself indeed especially you are smart and eat some food with your drink the food coating the stomach lining especially things like milk can temporarily retard the absorption alcohol when the food digested the absorption will proceed and you will actually drunker have higher instantaneous bac than you would have been you had drunk drink empty stomach put another way food can cause you less drunk than drinking empty stomach early those five hours but more drunk than drinking empty stomach later those five hours curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson again from alcohol server class the absolute most that eating before drinking can slow the absorption down minutes that gives time eat slam one beer and ride like hell try make home the minutes left after paying donning helmet gloves starting bike dean woodward you want step into world dean fringe rain com socio psychotic state bliss virago guns roses world dod
rec.motorcycles	mgnoc address anyone has the current moto guzzi national owners club address please mail thanks advance
rec.motorcycles	help with backpack sanjay kin lap upenn edu sanjay sinha writes summer approaches the usual preparations are being made was thinking going for some overnite camping trips the local state forests for that was planning get backpack rucksack the next question how shall carry the thing the bike given the metal frame and all have big backrest approx high and was hoping that would able bungee cord the backpack the backrest any one have any experiences such experimentation taking the idea further what would happen the backpack was fully loaded with full load lbs the load distribution going very severly affected how will the bike perform with such load clinging the back rest really secure with shifting still increase chances surfing ride bike regularly classes with book bag take the shoulder straps the bag and hook them around the rear turn signals works fine you probably will want attach with bungee cord keep from shifting one side another dan ramage ramage charlie ece scarolina edu vulcan dod wanted harley but haven won the lottery yet them bats smart they use radar letterman
rec.motorcycles	new hudson questions davide dcs qmw dave edmondson writes dave tharp cds davet interceptor cds tek com wrote article kmr ham almanac emd ham almanac writes one their main designers bert vack broke many records brooklands the late the early bert vack set records indians including mph brooklands november powerplus racing model must have been busy lad was also tuner and all round guru jap and worked with george brough can someone post details the illustrated ecyclopedia motorcycles sounds like book ought have copy sure can the illustrated encyclopedia motorcycles edited erwin tragatsch was published the hamlyn publishing group limited astronaut house hounslow road feltham middlesex england was first published and mine was reprinted cost then was pounds the though paid for canadian dollars have idea whether still print perhaps you could let the net know bob robert smits ladysmith lucas built weapons wars emd ham almanac would never start either
rec.motorcycles	this just article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes article apr isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist writes article mar rchland ibm com pooder msus msus edu writes sampled recently were using unauthorized software the inspector general said new report the inspector general make way for his excellency the inspector general hail hail brodney the sky behold the lord high executioner that something else already discussed this mail with jonathan the film the inspector general with danny kaye although can quote the name the leading lady because maltin doesn jonathan thinks there was earlier russian film movies just says was based gogol yes jonathan looked again only two story ivan reid paul scherrer institute ivan cvax psi gsx you porsche pass dod
rec.motorcycles	for sale kawasaki michigan for sale kawasaki with miles excellent condition kept garage asking who joyfully marches music rank and file has already earned contempt has been given large brain mistake since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice albert einstein brian vaughan brian vaughan umich edu
rec.motorcycles	beer unto bicyclists article mar erich triumf ivan erich triumf ivan reid wrote article tcora gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes mxcrew problem with inews domain file the crew wrote just information flame war please budweiser beer from the old csfr nowadays tschechien just know the german word czechoslovakia budweiser budwar pronounced bud var not any more short while ago jan split into the czech republic and slovakia actually think for couple years its official name was the czech and slovak republics sheesh don you guys get cnn cnn yuppietv tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	speeding ticket from chp article pqarb fnq gaia ucs orst edu crucej osshe edu jerry cruce writes peter nesbitt mcimail com wrote riding work last week via hwy from suisun was pulled over chp black and white the gas station jameson canyon road the officer stated looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going least just said okay and did not agree disagree anything said the next time you get stoped cop never never never admit anything don volunteer any information when retoracle question ask the cop like looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going least the correct reponse deny this technique employed police help establish guilt especially when times out she not sure who was doing the speeding the cop unsure this may the difference him letting you off the hook getting the tissue hope this helps for next time steven bakalis
rec.motorcycles	identify this bike for article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes article apr ucsu colorado edu coburnn spot colorado edu nicholas coburn writes first thought was hawk modified two brothers racing but did not think that they made this huge tank for additionally think seen this bike all white with sea green stripe and just honda for decals seen such bike numerous times over sewall hall and thought was race prepped cbr didn see over the parking lot buzzed over there way home all block off route but was gone single sided swingarm available for the cbr would imagine kinda neccisary for quick tire changes when first saw assumed was bike repainted cover crash damage joel
rec.motorcycles	help with backpack sanjay sinha sanjay kin lap upenn edu wrote the next question how shall carry the thing the bike given the metal frame and all have big backrest approx high and was hoping that would able bungee cord the backpack the backrest any one have any experiences such experimentation put the pack the pillion and bungee the backrest that not possible then you should able bungee behind the backrest just make sure doesn bend break anything like the rear fender turnsignals bill ranck ranck joesbar edu cars making sudden turn are the most dangerous they may cut you off entirely blocking the whole roadway and leaving you place msf motorcycle operator manual sixth rev
rec.motorcycles	kawi zephyr was vision gpz article apr pro haven cts com shadow pro haven cts com writes apr organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug writes the way the short lived zephyr essentially gpz why was the zephyr discontinued heard something about problem with the name but never did hear anything certain ford had anemic mid sized car that name back the last decade rented one once that car would ruin the name zephyr for any other use rod roderick sprattling job too great time too small sprattli azores crd com with feet fire and back wall
rec.motorcycles	why won getting low rider this year article apr cbnewsj att com car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes ouch this brings mind one the recommendations the hurt study because the rear the gas tank close proximity highly prized and easily damaged anatomy hurt recommended that manufacturers build the tank reduce the step function provided when the rider body slides off the seat and onto the gas tank the unfortunate event that the bike stops suddenly and the rider doesn think really inspiring how the manufacturers have taken this advice heart their design bikes like the cbr and the gts when riding goodies are already against the tank because the design the corbin seat tends move you forward wouldn the major danger one cajones due accelerating into and then being stopped the tank you already there there wouldn impact problem would there michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	thoughts yamaha seca turbo article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes was wondering anybody knows anything about yamaha seca turbo considering buying used seca turbo for canadian with the odo this will first bike any comments don just nab pounce these are fairly rare bikes and they are more than adequate for putting big brown stripe your shorts does mph power wheelie appeal you thought would only really bad things the stock clutch isn the task barnett can take care this the back tire wears quickly gee wonder why and the induction system bear work later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec pending delivery agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	tools tools tools article apr research nec com behanna phoenix syl nec com chris behanna writes while the subject has anyone else noticed that the deep well craftsman sae deep well set too small fit bolt nut when took the socket for exchange every one the deep well sockets the rack had the exact same problem looking into the socket appears that craftsman toolmaker attempted imitate flank drive this piece but did not account for the extra clearance needed inside the socket never had any problem with mine are you sure the nut bolt you are trying really hex just slightly larger and wrench won fit nut gmc pickup has several nuts really annoying metric threads too seems that most the body metric most the engine sae jonathan lusky lusky ccwf utexas edu jeep wrangler for sale holley bbl camaro spd
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die article nnt dartvax dartmouth edu russell hughes dartmouth edu ussell hughes writes what great day got back home last night from some fantastic skiing colorado and put the battery back the fxstc cleaned the plugs opened the petcock waited minute hit the starter and bingo started like charm spent restless night anticipating the first ride saison and off went this morning get state inspection done now bike stock far except for slash cut pipes and therein lies the rub the slash cut baloney cuts some call them are not stock mufflers they sold for off road use only and are much louder than stock mufflers arnie
rec.motorcycles	tracing license plates bdi cagers this morning truck that had been within sight and within his for about miles suddenly forgot that existed and pulled over right front wheel was about even with the back edge his front passenger door was accelerating past him was trivial enough for tap the brakes and slide behind him slewed over with signal course top with little horn blaring damn need fiamms but the satisfaction being aware surroundings and thus surviving was not enough especially when later pulled alongside the bastard and made apologetic wave anything there some way that can memorize the license plate offending vehicle and get the name and address the owner not going firebomb houses anything just like write consciousness raising letter two think that would good for bdi cagers know that know where they live maybe they use brain cells while driving instead the usual curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	cnn california helmet law article jlp wink jlp blink att com jon peticolas writes hey works you could present the paragraph above virtually any member the non motorcycling public and they buy right into just about any argument you can produce favor banning helmetless riding can used argue favor banning motorcycles just matter degree that absurd that statement must therefore say that any argument favor seatbelts airbags argument against automobiles any argument for lifeguards argument against swimming says that any agrgument favor safety precautions argument for banning the activity which the precautions apply extrapolating that degree ridiculous there wouldn any normal human activity left therefore non seqitur also even though most people not ride motorcycles they boat sail jetski climb ski fly parachute hang glide glide bungee jump bike skate rollerblade skateboard play rugby ouch mow the lawn rewire the basement operate heavy machinery and host other dangerous things that would all valid motorcycling activities ban your little homily applies all those things and the general public buying into banning motorcycles without realizing that their activity would next unlikely terry cunningham terry rsi prc com donuts there anything they dod diviner dreams can homer hifi
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die article nnt dartvax dartmouth edu russell hughes dartmouth edu russell hughes writes start her and rev about rpm fail cuz register and the max allowed fail with these pipes there are gonna next time make the numbers more believable this poor flamebait getting close the sound jumbo jet engine takeoff revs from some small number yards away certainly right around the pain threshold for humans way hell the state permits they have any standard all curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	kawi zephyr was vision gpz article organpipe uug arizona edu asphaug lpl arizona edu erik asphaug writes the way bob dave sorry had read review that said the engine was pretty much identical the gpz but that the suspension and frame more modern the fancy piggyback shocks the and the think don know about the are very nice way adjustability the forks are crappy they dive like mad had progressive springs installed and made huge difference cheap fix much improvement elef
rec.motorcycles	how not put motor together article apr tcsi com markk tcs com mark kromer writes article mimsy umd edu leavitt bill writes put pistons bores first then lower onto bottom end deleted has anybody actually carried out this procedure can visualize fewer problems with canting pistons the cylinders with this method but more trouble with keeping the bores suspended especially for the first two pistons and with working space insert piston pins and clips especially for the last two pistons certainly possible and quite easy most cases especially two strokes very common this bikes where the cylinder mounting through studs don prevent the cylinder from being removed with the engine the frame did this when assembled the top end indian which was easier yet because does not have through studs base flange studs and separate head bolts dontchaknow you have use little foresight rags duct tape etc keep clips from falling clothespins hoseclamps etc support the cylinder while you inserting the pins are these called gudgeon pins the what gudgeon dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	why mod was cylinder running hot apr exu ericsson lmcstst noah ericsson stamos stamos writes article apr research nec com behanna phoenix syl nec com chris behanna writes power hmmmmmm well haven got the dyno jetted waiting for the snow melt although have factory jet kit advance jets are the stock book says calif strange don want fit unless there dyno handy heard that bikes tuned perfection the dyno can little too close the edge for street use cold morning bad gas etc apparently they back them some even for track use you pays your money jorg klinger gsxr you only new who arch eng services lost horizons think umanitoba man the embalmer anonymous stamos lmcstst lmc ericsson zzr ellas ericsson cellular design montreal canada
rec.motorcycles	for johs dhhalden davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes bozo posts gifs rec moto and his postmaster are also gonna get copies the post their mailboxes hey great picture you can fault his taste only his technique chill out and educate instead getting your panties bunch ditto you dave using the picture the bacground sun and haven sent single message the guy looks like you get keep the panties joe senner joe rider cactus org austin warning not look into laser with remaining eye posted radioactive isotope research lab from
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding article magpie linknet com manes magpie linknet com steve manes writes drinking riding depends how badly you want live the faa says eight hours bottle throttle for pilots but recommends twenty four hours the fars specify blood alcohol level legally drunk think which more than twice strict dwi minimums dwi new york here the limit bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	protective gear article snz morgan demon tony morgan demon tony kidson writes article apr hydro jlevine hydro writes article wkfs eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what protective gear the most important would for the gloves there not whole lot that you can life you have skin your hands yup ruins your sex life your sex life maybe bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die what great day got back home last night from some fantastic skiing colorado and put the battery back the fxstc cleaned the plugs opened the petcock waited minute hit the starter and bingo started like charm spent restless night anticipating the first ride saison and off went this morning get state inspection done now bike stock far except for slash cut pipes and all went well with new hampshire state inspection meaning all lights worked until the dude produces decibel meter and tells about the new law about noise huh sez and has start her and rev about rpm fail cuz register and the max allowed fail with these pipes there are gonna whole lotta seriously pissed off bikers round here when they for inspection but hey its new experience have never really felt like menace society before parked dismounted and walked building with slight swagger step and narrow lidded look sensed faculty colleagues unease with new intimidating status and women glances seemed linger just little longer perhaps that was imagination sigh now need install new bub pipes and single fire ignition wonder how will after that russ hughes fxstc dod love yeah that the feeling you get when you like something much your motorcycle sonny barger told campbell who has old friend who was there the time
rec.motorcycles	insect impacts article emoryu emory edu labrg emory edu ryan montieth gill writes for those who have had problems with small birds what about the large raptor types when they are swooping across the road after smallish prey had hawk falcon what ever come within feet lucky for him for that matter noticed and and pulled his her trajectory the last moment scared the shit outa nothing like red tailed hawk the face talons and all wonder riding nighthawk has anything with hmmmm ryan got male mallard duck the chest once was like being kicked karate instructor accident but eyes were tearing hard and was wheezing loudly that quite remarkable that was able come stop with the rubber side the duck btw lived and seemed quite healthy though both sat the roadside and shook our heads for few minutes the bruise went from right collar bone all the way down belly button regards charles dod within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	bhp limit vetoed according bbc radio this morning denmark portugal few others have vetoed proposal limit sold bikes bhp the reason that such limit not supported accident statistics rare example governmental wisdom the limit has five year moratorium and specialist manufacturers will exempt anyway any suspicion that this crafty trick restrict that end the market europe triumph norton who bmw cagiva ducati the sort dangerous rubbish which stalls gatt talks you heard here first bill univ edinburgh replete with and healthy blue exhaust
rec.motorcycles	speeding ticket from chp article dmatejkac dmb netcom com dmatejka netcom com daniel matejka writes article agate berkeley edu downey homer berkeley edu allen downey writes fight your ticket california edition david brown berkeley nolo press the second edition out but not ucb library good luck let know how goes daniel matejka writes the fourth edition out too but probably also not very high ucb gotta have that list article mcimail com mcimail com peter nesbitt writes riding work last week via hwy from suisun was pulled over chp black and white the gas station jameson canyon road the officer stated looked like you were going kinda fast coming down highway you must have been going least just said okay and did not agree disagree anything said can you beat this ticket personally think your duty citizen make much trouble possible for them maybe they give and leave alone someday soon right every citizen right and duty force government accountability anecdotes deleted never tried proving the cop was mistaken did get see some other poor biker try was mixing various facts like the maximum acceleration cop car and the distance which the cop had been pacing him and end demonstrating that couldn possibly have been going fast the cop had suggested brought diagrams and calculator was prepared lost keep mind cops this all the time and their word better than yours also keep mind that cops will lie court get their way don get started asking how know you decide fight you have ready for this well devise strategy make the cop story doubtful the judge jury mind maybe though they don guess how fast bikes are going all the time besides this guy didn speak english very well and ended absolutely confounding the judge the cop and everyone else the room who been recently criminalized some twit with gun and quota ahem better now maybe have won had his presentation been more polished maybe not did get applause mcfarland ewm mvuzr att com marshalls corner marshals the best seat the house watch motorcycle roadracing passing waving yellow
rec.motorcycles	carrying crutches was living article pqhkl usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes when got knee rebuilt got back the street bike asap put the crutches the rack and the passenger seat and they hung out back long way just make sure they tied down tight front and problemo hmm sounds like useful trick keep the local cagers least crutch length off tail light which more than they give now but have break leg use when broke ankle dirt biking ended strapping the crutches the back the bike riding the lab was right ankle but the bike was and started easily hand ivan reid paul scherrer institute ivan cvax psi gsx beware drainage ditches firetrails dod
rec.motorcycles	thoughts yamaha seca turbo was wondering anybody knows anything about yamaha seca turbo considering buying used seca turbo for canadian with the odo this will first bike any comments thanks peter how institute space and atmospheric studies university saskatchewan saskatoon saskatchewan canada how skisas usask clapped out ford truck
rec.motorcycles	its still cold but one thing certain though its still too cold after about minutes had stop and hold muffler for while very careful about this youre really cold the muffler will feel fine till you leave all the charred skin when you peel your hands off speak from experience you can also all kindsa americanism the day damage your circulation warming hands something too hot far the best fastest and safest way shove the hands the opposit sleeves and stand there like ming emporer for while five minutes should
rec.motorcycles	its still cold but first ride the season one thing certain though its still too cold after about minutes had stop and hold muffler for while when got home after few hours kept all gear for about half hour the house humidity wind protection and mph not mix well hell this warm retired fleece from under the aerostich last month when the temperature got aboce try living couple years the dole you cant afford any heating you put the gear october abd you take off again may getting out the bike seems like luxury comparison cos oyur usuallu going somewhere warm its all relative happy cold riding who are you trying kid its the pain that makes all worthwhile
rec.motorcycles	freezing and riding every spec alertness keep from getting squished otherwise not only dangerous unpleasant the same goes for cold and fatigue once took half hour nap gas station insure that would make yeah hypothermia much more detrimemtal your judgement and reactions than people realise wish had the patience stop when should one day pay for you begin shiver stop and warm thoroughly you leave till the shivering stops this doesnt mean you again means you danger yourself and everyone else the road your brain and body are working about fast tree grows you will not realise this yourself till you hit something the next stage passing out this usually means falling off
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding you can ride the bike but you will drive truck home the judgement and motor skills needed pilot moto are not required cage this scares the out this piece psychology its essential for any long term biker understand people not think this will someone else suffer they assess things purely this will suffer this vital concept bike cage interaction
rec.motorcycles	eating and riding was drinking and riding article pnakada apr pnakada oracle com paul nakada pnakada oracle com writes what the feeling about eating and riding went out riding this weekend and got little carried away with some pecan pie the whole ride back felt sluggish was certainly much more alert the ride sure others have the same feeling but the strangest thing that eating usually the turnaround point weekend rides from now little snack will much rather have get that full sluggish feeling closer home paul paul nakada oracle corporation pnakada oracle com dod maintain senses their sharpest never eat full meal within hrs ride tried slim fast lite before ride but found that lap times around the parliament buildings suffered secs the resultant pound weight loss over the summer just sharpens bike handling and can always look forward winter carbo loading obligatory dave true they say that money talks when mine spoke said buy drink
rec.motorcycles	thoughts yamaha seca turbo previous article howp skyfox says was wondering anybody knows anything about yamaha seca turbo considering buying used seca turbo for canadian with the odo this will first bike any comments because this cannot good faith recommend seca turbo power delivery too uneven for novice the official dod newbie bike choice would more appropriate because the powerband wide and delivery very smooth perfect for the beginner dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	insect impacts feel childish article ppvds seven east sun com egreen east sun com writes article hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes how the helmetless the same way people horseback not fast and they would probably enjoy eating bugs anyway every bit fast dirtbike the right terrain and eat flies thank you who mentioned dirtbikes talking highway speeds here you mph your dirtbike then feel free contribute jeeps you supposed keep the windscreen then why does down because wouldn jeep didn friend mine just bought one and has more warning stickers than those little wheelers guess that becuase big wheeler anyway written about ten places that the windshield should remain all times and looks like they made pain put down anyway from what says fair admit that would similar matter drive windscreenless jeep the highway for bikers they may participate this discussion but they probably few and far between maintain that this topic interest primarily bikers snow skis bugs and most poeple who fast wear goggles most helmetless motorcyclists notice how picked the more insignificant the lower case part the two parts the statement besides around here quite rare see bikers wear goggles the street either full face with shield open face with either nothing aviator sunglasses experience bicycling with contact lenses and sunglasses says that non wraparound sunglasses almost nothing keep the crap out ones eyes the question still stands how cruiser riders with negligible helmets stand being the highway mph buggy summer evenings helmetless goggleless fine whatever you say but lets make some attmept stick the point been out the road where had stop every half hour clean shield there were many bugs and jacket would blood splattered mess and see guys with shorty helmets goggles long beards and tight shirts merrily cruising along bikes with windscreens lets really specific this time that even understands does anbody think that splattering bugs with one face fun are there other reasons image laziness make point about freedom bug splattering bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding eww gross article mjmuise watstar uwaterloo mjmuise watstar uwaterloo mike muise writes drink for the first drinks hours drink for the next drinks hours drink for the rest case goes down after the first four because the fifth one usually makes throw the last two needless say don drink very much anymore the last time that happened was the second year undergrad was silly edu breath and pretty bad breath that bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article innjml earth utexas edu mcguire utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes obcountersteer for some reason discovered that pulling the wrong side the handlebars rather than pushing the other wrong side you get meaning provides feeling greater control for example rather than pushing the right side lean right turn right lonny pulling the left side least until get leaned over the right feels more secure and less counter intuitive maybe need psychological help told newbie friend mine who was having trouble from the complicated explanations his rider course think using the handlebars lean not turn push the right handlebar down pull left whatever lean right worked for him stopped steering with his tuchus bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	riding jacket recommendations old jacket about bite the dust the market for new riding jacket looking for recommendations for suitable replacement would like buy full aerostich suit but can afford for right now considering two basic options buy the aerostich jacket only dunno how much costs due recent price increases but imagine over that may pushing limit advantages include the fact that can later add the pants and that nearly eliminates the need for the jacket portion rainsuit buy some kind leather jacket like few the new hein gericke firstgear line however they may bit pricey unless can work some sort deal advantages leather are potentially slightly better protection enhanced pose value all know how important that possibly cheaper than upper aerostich requirements for jacket are that must fit over few other layers mainly sizing thing leather prefer zip out lining must have some body armor similar aerostich elbows shoulders forearms possibly back kidney protection etc reasonable amount pocket space would nice ventilation would plus however must wearable cold weather below freezing with layers perhaps electrics please fire away with suggestions comments etc steve steve andersen dod andersen udel edu andersen ccm udel edu ducati yamaha srx life simply consequence the complexities carbon chemistry
rec.motorcycles	brake rotors cross drilling 
rec.motorcycles	insect impacts article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes article ppvds seven east sun com egreen east sun com writes article hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes every bit fast dirtbike the right terrain and eat flies thank you who mentioned dirtbikes talking highway speeds here you mph your dirtbike then feel free contribute obviously never rode good open class bike not paid have opinion speed suzuki dod
rec.motorcycles	crappy honda just have small question about bike being fairly experienced bmw and mechanic just don know what think about honda she was using too much oil for the last trip daytona bike week this spring and all sudden she trailed smoke like hell and was running only one cylinder towed the bike home and took apart but everything looks perfect working order cracks the heads pistons the cylinder walls look very clean and the wear pistons and cylinders not measurable all still within factory specs the only thing could find however was slightly bigger ring gap the right cylinder the one with the problem but still way below the wear limit given the clymer manual for this bike any syggestions what else could cause problem have hone the cylinder walls make them little rougher criss cross pattern order get better breaking new rings won that increase the wear pistons please send comments sruhl mechanical watstar uwaterloo thanks advance stef stefan ruhl german exchange student don poke into privacy
rec.motorcycles	self insured was should liability insurance required article viking ponderous iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes get annoyed insurance hence self insured above liability mandating that play their game silly better game play and everybody still financially secure what involved getting bonded anyone know that option recognized nys dmv rod roderick sprattling job too great time too small sprattli azores crd com with feet fire and back wall
rec.motorcycles	bike for sale harley flhtc for sale harley flhtc liberty edition good condition many extras asking located rhode island peter levine plevine ele uri edu
rec.motorcycles	goldwing performance article hpcc corp com gharriso hpcc corp com graeme harrison writes according peter egan the just released cycle world his flhs real dog when pillions his wife all that money for dog that doesn defecate much but think the mystique you are buying into for that extra more randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod
rec.motorcycles	tracing license plates bdi cagers curtis jackson cjackson adobe com wrote the driver had looked over casually couple times know knew was there okay then that case was attemped vehicular manslaughter definitely wanted kill you all cagers want kill bikers that the only explanation that can think hesh
rec.motorcycles	for sale husqvarna for sale model husqvarna enduro model year engine four stroke extras ignition for easy starting suspension aftershock custom carbon fiber kevlar skid plate quick steering geometry stock epa legal and quiet exhaust system bark busters and hand guards motion pro clutch cable price contact denis concordel mail denis apldbio com mabell work home selling trusty husky hopefully buy husaberg this very good dirt bike and has been maintained perfectly never had any problems with four stroke valves liquid cooled engine heavier than stroke but still lighter than honda and has lot better suspension ohlins shock husky fork than the for the casual non competitive rider the engine much better than any two stroke you can easily lug hills and blast through trails with minimum gear changes the ignition and the carefully tuned carburation makes this bike very easy start starts first kick when cold hot there custom made carbon kevlar light pound wrap around skid plate protect the engine cases and the water pump the steering angle has been reduced degree increase steering quickness this with the suspension tune phil douglas aftershock multiple time isde rider gives better ride than most bike plush suspension responsive steering with head shake such good bike why sell gee want buy husaberg which just husky but pounds lighter and tad more
rec.motorcycles	thanks for the speeding ticket advice like thank everyone who took the time respond post about fighting ticket many you wrote say that you have successfully fought and won your case court others lost due the cop outright lying the judge about the circumstances surrounding your ticket while one fellow lost because the judge just didn appear the mood for such foolishness several you suggested that obtain book called fight your ticket the general theme from those who said for was prepared should much research possible back and review the scene transcribe what happened tape paper use any witnesses that may have been around have list questions ask the cop and the judge and positive and assertive innocent until proven guilty gulp few people suggested trying get court date changed this might trip the arresting officer may not show the date his day off feels knows that doesn have chance win against you one individual stated that officer could expert witness and says was speeding then damn was speeding another says that must have been paced clocked with radar gun lots good suggestions and ideas from you all let you know what happens after the big day peter nesbitt air traffic controller pnesbitt mcimail com oakland bay tracon
rec.motorcycles	mail order you get good service from shop they regularly have merchandise stock you need they have knowledgable and friendly sales staff for whatever other reason you would like business with them which will the aggrigate keep them business and available fill your future needs but they charge more for item than another store you can usually purchase the item the store your choice and pay the lowest legitimate price being offered elsewhere sounds pretty lame let see understand now your friends charge you extra just how much you usually have pay for little friendliness seems like you being serviced some friendly sales people robert emmons never hesitate sacrifice clarity calcshop inc and maintainability save precious remmons holonet net picoseconds during program execution
rec.motorcycles	bmw rally bbbbbbbb bbbbbbbb bbbbbbbb press release all bmw riders subject rally time here from bmw club northern california bmw rally may memorial day weekend san francisco bay area annual bmw rally sponsored the bmw club northern califronia will held the quincy california fairgrounds from may included the pre registration fee gate are star camping field events and trophies two dinners rally pin door prizes poker run vendor displays fun run english trials and live music playing throughout the weekend plus extras like hot showers tours concourse elegance and more this first time the rally year history that the event being held quincy and according pat gardner rally chairman the rally continuing growth and the need for larger and more complete facility led quincy plus can get there either our two most favrite highways highway which goes through the feather river canyon from the south via the northernmost part the gold country highway day passes will not available and non bmw rider must pre registered guest bmw rider the quincy fairgrounds located california state highway two miles south downtown quincy for pre registration forms and additional information write doug hubbard bmw club northern california norman court fremont telephone additional notes this not for profit event and riders get their monies worth whether you ever attended rally before not this the one make the only problem has been that there are many activities that attendees have choose one over another quincy beautiful campground lots grass and little dust for folks who have been previous rallies mariposa quincy has lots space all flat room not problem there are buildings and such available there change the weather also the people quincy are going all out welcome registration will begin thursday course there are always early arrivals who will show monday tuesday the registration fee pays for camping thursday through monday days there will tour friday with the main events beginning saturday sunday evening will the awards ceremony for members the various clubs club awards will based registration declaration affilitation there will course the usual awards for oldest male and female rider betting needed win and youngest rider they get cheater permits and greatest distance one two and all the usual things
rec.motorcycles	its still cold but article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes tend keep bedroom window open during the winter and have woken find frost bedspread but still get cold below about usually the part that sticks out the bottom helmet maybe time get noj quiet rider cool conjure this image doonesbury dean how long have you been sleeping with your helmet rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville fear not the evil men the name evil but heaven protect from the evil men the name good
rec.motorcycles	recommendation duc have line ducati gts model with the clock runs very well paint the bronze brown orange faded out leaks bit oil and pops out with hard accel the shop will fix trans and oil leak they sold the bike the and only owner they want and thinking more like any opinions out there please email thanks would nice stable mate the beemer then get jap bike and call myself axis motors tuba irwin honk therefore computrac richardson irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod
rec.motorcycles	safe driving prcatices article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf columbia edu robert castro writes article rbpc netcom com rbp netcom com bob pasker writes cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes solution never ride next car the only thing between you and them space keep much possible take this one step further never dilly dally that rear either side cage when you pass make positive possible and you can pass fully least make sure that you attempt you can make the driver aware you least getting into his area vision this also applies merging into another lane after making pass positively possible and what try look the rear view and then over shoulder and after done that accelerate into the lane that you have speed cushion should you have missed seeing potential bdi that trying the same thing you worse may have been behind you saw you made the pass successfully but you aren going fast enough suite him tries around you the right ride with four eyes rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville fear not the evil men the name evil but heaven protect from the evil men the name good
rec.motorcycles	april was faq what the dod article hpfcso com jld hpfcso com jeff deeney writes rec motorcycles viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes last year believe was jeff deeney posted what since come recognize the ultimate april fools posting ever wasn particularly nice him several people were quite fooled and very worried about him but can fault the effectiveness based numerous inputs most them unprintable deemed time for kinder gentler april not that didn have something really sick and twisted ready post perhaps next year personally think jeffy poo was still smarting more from the third degree burns suffered after april last year rather than the supposed burns that suffered the joke granted was one those people that were taken and was certainly concerned and then pissed him for pulling such thing which made known him but then again for april fool joke would also record saying that was the best orchestrated one ever seen and certainly sucked lot people into believing sick twisted who this group could ever accused such thing tip twisted lid thee jeffy rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville fear not the evil men the name evil but heaven protect from the evil men the name good
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets grf dropped shoei off the seat bike while trying rock onto centerstand chipped the heck out the paint cheerfully spent bottle testor model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes then while was drying realized that was out smokes and that cage not currently running had take bike down the store not wanting mess paint job said well heck can just use old helmet this your standard cheapie openface didn notice big difference when switched the shoei but switching back was really bad doesn fit worth damn too wide the sides too short front back with faceplate still bloody windy with the shoei normally ignore the face shield until get about ish with this one taxiing the end the driveway was too smegging much wind the question for the day passenger helmets you don know for certain who gonna ride with you like say you meet them church meeting yeah that the ticket what are some guidelines should just pick another shoei size have backup helmet should maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses off article castle wbg festival geake writes the banana one isn imho ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead wheel clamps putting one about size each window the cage what your local hospital favorite curse blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	flashing anyone hello all bike have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since live and commute nyc there are number tolls one must pay route just before arriving toll booth switch the hazards thisto warn other motorists that will taking longer than the seconds make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back takes little more time than the average cager takes make the same transaction paying the toll also notice that when this cagers tend get the message and usually another booth question this good bad thing any others tend the same just curious rob castro email rdc cunixf columbia edu live for today ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa
rec.motorcycles	stolen aarghhhh article apr microunity com ericm microunity com eric murray writes watch out often when some scumbag steals the cover that means that they were are looking steal the bike case had faded cover stolen off bmw that was stashed apartment carport and not visible from the street they evidently decided the beemer wasn worth stealing but did try the next night steal honda hurricane parked the next apartment building neighbor heard them wheeling out and called the cops know this just setting myself but this actually one the things that really good about bmw bikes from all accounts heard practically one steals bmws probably similar for moto guzzis and other relative exotics since there isn large demand for parts and the bike would much easier track down seems that the most stolen bikes are harleys and jap sport bikes jonathan polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp kildaire farm cary usa voice fax
rec.motorcycles	bikes with big dogs article apr galaxy gov bclarke galaxy gov writes article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard rider giving big dog such great dane ride the back his bike dog would love could ever make work post the month actually seen riders carting around pet dog sidecar great dane the back though sounds bit hairy yeah sure that our lab would love ride the type that sticks his head out car windows but didn think that would enjoy being bungee corded the gas tank and lbs squirming beast bit much for backpack who done bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	max handling request hello there ican anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle detailing tip article apr bnr mbeaving bnr writes don you just hate when the speedo and tach your bike start cloud over from all that nasty sunshine the detailing tip the week use rubbing compound moisten rag apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent previously transparent material after few minutes working the plastic face the dial plastic face will clear once more will not work for glass couple other tips make habit parking the bike that instruments are facing away from the sun meguiar mirror glaze plastic polish plastic cleaner cue canned product plug roise sumax seattleu edu linda roise writes for novice question there anything that will clean face shield and also remove abrasions that one can see through better what you want are meguiar mirror glaze plastic polish and plastic cleaner they are very mild abrasives meant remove scratches from plastic for fine scratches just use the polish for bigger ones start with the cleaner and finish with the polish the stuff bucks per bottle most auto motorcycle parts stores don choke over the price too much since both bottles will probably last you years the stuff works great plastic watch crystals and compact discs too blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	hard copy hot pursuit did anybody see this run hard copy guy katana got pulled over the police guess for speeding something but just the cop was about step out the car the dude punches down interstate georgia ang then the cop gives chase now this was interesting episode because was all videotaped everything from the dramatic takeoff and mph chase the sidestreet battle about mph what happened the end the guy who being relentless chased down box the cage with the disco lights slows couple times taunt the cop after blowing few stop signs and making car jump the side goes dead end street the kat although not the latest machine still high performance machine and slams the brakes couse all know that cages especially the ones with the disco lights can stop fast our high performance machines what happens the cage plows into the kat luckily for this dude was wearing helmet and was not hurt but dude how crazy can you get yeah all went out and played cat and mouse with our friends but with cop how crazy can you get took just one look who tried this crap convince not try any shit like that although the dude collided with car head mph the kawasaki team colors still looked good just few scratches like front end inch long engine and other minor scratches you guys are out there please slow down not being advocate for the cages especially the ones that make that annoying ass noises but just think the next time you punched whether you have all mighty can ninja just remember kid could step out any time peace ride kinda safe warren have suzuki will travel wcd uxa cso uiuc edu what the big deal about riding one these only going annie robotech
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice custom purchase article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes mechanic once commented that the dual range transmission was pure junk one mans opinion had friend pittsburgh who had with the dual range tranny usually only used the economy range get overdrive sixth gear out had miles when was stolen was recovered shortly after that repaired and for all know still going strong the was shaft driven overbore version the and was made for exactly one year yep head and base gaskets are very expensive helluva bike data point chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	tangentially live free but quietly die article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes impertinent stuff deleted showing canadian university ness here does anyone else know what talking about bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada there you again you edu breath poser university ness indeed leave that stuff professionals henry prange biker professional edu breath physiology sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride conv cage explorer cage the unifying trait our species the relentless pursuit folly hypocrisy the only national religion this country
rec.motorcycles	boom hubcap attack article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes was attacked rabid hubcap once was going work yamaha twin the vibrating tank when heard wierd noise off left caught glimpse something silver headed for left foot and jerked about nanosecond before bike was hit hard the left side when went put foot back the peg found that was not there pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that had been hit wire wheel type hubcap from large cage this hubcap weighed about pounds the impact had bent the left peg flat against the frame and tweeked the shifter the process had not heard the approaching cap feel certian that would sans portion left foot anyone else had this sort experience not with hub cap but one those lumber yard delivery trucks made life interesting when hit dip the road and several sheets sheetrock and dozen gallon cans spackle came off mph got real interesting for about seconds had use wood mallet get all the dried spackle off the helmet and the bike when got home thanks the bob tail kenworth between and the lumber truck had path drive through made with his tires and threw the corresponding monsoon from those tires ran over what ever cans spackle didn burst impact car front the right lane hit her brakes did and nailed bridge abutment half way through the second the messiest time was san diego was way back the apartment ocean beach sportster and had just picked shake burger fries from jack the box and stuffed foul weather jacket when the milk shake opened nimitz blvd mph nothing like the smell vanilla milk shake cooking the engine runs down your groin and legs and people waiting back you make the same left turn you are there are only two types ships the navy submarines and targets dod next raise richard pierson vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer opinions are own don shop malls buy jeans jackets and ammo the same store
rec.motorcycles	boom hubcap attack previous article speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer says was attacked rabid hubcap once was going work yamaha twin the vibrating tank when heard wierd noise off left caught glimpse something silver headed for left foot and jerked about nanosecond before bike was hit hard the left side when went put foot back the peg found that was not there pulled into the nearest parking lot and discovered that had been hit wire wheel type hubcap from large cage this hubcap weighed about pounds the impact had bent the left peg flat against the frame and tweeked the shifter the process had not heard the approaching cap feel certian that would sans portion left foot hmmmm wondered where that hubcap went dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	max handling request previous article ntuvax ntu says hello there ican anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling you kidding right this flame bait the extreme max handling har har har har dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	contact person for boots would anyone out there dodland able help out giving contact purchase pair military air borne combat boots size these boots have read here rec moto are calf height boots that use only velcro for enclosure have phoned around and nobody seems carry such item admit have not gone into the deepest bowels nyc yet for the search but have made some calls several the bigger army navy type stores with luck anyone out there know place that does carry such item well does mail order any help would appreciated rob castro email rdc cunixf columbia edu live for today ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa
rec.motorcycles	hard copy hot pursuit previous article wcd uxa cso uiuc edu daniel warren says did anybody see this run hard copy don watch that the kat although not the latest machine still high performance machine and slams the brakes couse all know that cages especially the ones with the disco lights can stop fast our high performance machines what happens the cage plows into the kat does this mean the cop fault for rear ending the bike you know following too closely and reckless driving dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	max handling request article apr ntuvax ntu ntuvax ntu writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling ridden one twice was designed monster straight line which has nothing fzr the corners fact just didn handle that well all curves but hey that not what was designed two cents alan
rec.motorcycles	rejetting carbs mark kromer the thu apr gmt wibbled article rtaraz bigwpi ramin taraz wrote does the amount exhaust allowed leave the engine through the exhaust pipe make that much difference the amount air fuel mixture that cylender sucks tries suck depends the speed the piston when goes down and the pressure the cylinder the end the exhaust stroke with poor exhaust system this pressure may above atmospheric with pipe that scavenges well this may substantially below atmospheric this effect will vary with rpm depending the tune the pipe some pipes combined with large valve overlap can actually reverse the intake flow and blow mixture out the carb when outside the pipes effective rev range now question which one provides more resistence far the engine conserned resistance that the exhaust provides the resistance that results from the bike trying push itself and the rider two completely different things the state the pipe determines how much power the motor can make the load the bike determines how much power the motor needs make ark fzr pilot payload mechanic you welcome well for one very glad that have fuel injection all those needles and orifices and venturi and pressures worse than school human biology reproduction lessons sex always made feel bit queasy nick the simple minded biker dod concise oxford tube rider lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	should liability insurance required article tcora gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes article apr walter bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson wrote lets get this fault stuff straight lived when started rates went alot moved and rates went down alot the came and was different story you are sitting parking lot having lunch whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for give yours bzzzt the other driver fault your insurance pays you less deductible then recoups the total cost from the other guy gal company there fancy word for which escapes right now and pays you the deductible you can the other guy gal company right off just takes longer get your cash opposed state farm who cut check today the spot for the damage wife cage the word subrogation seems you willing wait for the money from scumbag insurance that you save having pay the deductible however scumbag insurance scum insurance then you may have pay the deductible get your insurance pack rabid large fanged lawyers recover the damages from scum insurance lawyers sad but true call job security for lawyers later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	bikes with big dogs article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard rider giving big dog such great dane ride the back his bike dog would love could ever make work thanks wendel cua edu the back might tricky but here boulder there guy that can always seen with his golden retriever the sidecar course the dog always wearing wwii style goggles joke nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	ducati opinions wanted frankb sad com frank ball writes godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com wrote the ducati model essentially reduced displacement which means weighs the same and the same size the with far less power produced specifically meet vehicle tax restriction certain markets which makes commercially viable not sold the where unneeded and unwanted such somewhat large and overweight for its motor will still handle magnificently just won very fast there are very few other flaws mention the limited steering lock the annoyance noted most testers and the mirrors aren perfect the ducati model essentially reduced displacement which means weighs the same and the same size the with far less nope lbs lightrer than the power and less brakes single disk that quite impressive with two fingers the lever much beth horror lifted the rear wheel about fine randy mamola impression such somewhat large and overweight for its motor will still handle magnificently just won very fast there are have feeling that going fast enough that beth will give few liter bike riders fits the future very few other flaws mention the limited steering lock the the steering locks are adjustable annoyance noted most testers and the mirrors aren perfect beth sees fine out them see them filled with black leather concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich sportster sport for sale dod spike the garage rat ama queued for fssnoc two jousts and gather big fun kspt bell cool rule but sometimes mail txd able mkt com com lewis disclaimer com takes responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	dot tire date codes just mailed this noticed long cut the tread the rear tire vfr the cut only about deep the tread block and looks like only scratched the rubber the base but the weird thing way over the edge where haven scuffed the tire yet questions are how dangerous this should replace the tire right away and should since the cut the unscuffed portion and the tire only has about what you think chances getting replaced under warranty are the nedod mailing list and jack tavares suggested check out how old the tire one tactic for getting replaced does anyone have the file how read the date codes handy thanks dean dean cookson dcookson mitre org dod ama the mitre corp burlington bedford kotnml kotb the road shepherd and shall not stop vfr sam eliott road hogs mtv bianchi limited
rec.motorcycles	fat boy versus new math article pimfd cre agate berkeley edu robinson cogsci berkeley edu michael robinson writes article mcz ccu umanitoba klinger ccu umanitoba jorg klinger writes apr bnr npet bnr nick pettefar writes manual velcro the mar wibbled but greater than greater than the best all should obvious that the best number far last year was hot but with the improvements this year there can question hell dad used have old that would beat out today without breaking sweat well the twisties anyway this year just too cumbersome for practical use anything other than repeating decimals remember the good old days when hexadecimals and even binaries were still legal sure they smoked little blue stuff out the pipes but had hex that could slaughter any decimal the road sigh such nostalgia regards charles dod within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding article wkbp eskimo com maven eskimo com norman hamer writes what general rule thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what should just work with drink tonight don ride until tomorrow interesting discussion limit myself one standard serving alcohol going ride and mostly unless the alcohol something special fine ale good wine someone else vsop usually just don drink any but then alcohol just isn really important mainly for financial reasons least one the magazines claims follow the aviation guideline alcohol whatsoever within hrs riding company bike don remember which mag though was few years ago regards charles hicc dod within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	for johs dhhalden last wvnvms wvnet edu writes ducati uue quuncd ver theodore kaldis begin cut here cut here part nyr afkin apyt this gif was great have the backdrop apollo thingy and many people stop and admire course tell them that did myself far too much trouble contact archive sites get stuff like this anybody else has any good gifs please please don hesitate post them the bra thing still going nick the idiot biker dod concise oxford bras lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	camping question sanjay sinha the apr gmt wibbled thanks everyone who posted previous quest for camping info another question well not strictly stuff looking for thermos flask keep coffee hot mean real hot course must the unbreakable type far what ever metal type have wasted money has not matched the vacuum glass type any info appreciated sanjay back youth ahem the wiffy and moi purchased gadget which heated water from source was for car use but thought try worked apart from one slight problem had keep the revs above any lower and the motor would die from lack electron movement made for interesting cups coffee anyhow would plot routes that contained straights over three miles that had sufficient time get the water boiling point this sometimes difficult england good luck your quest nick the biker dod concise oxford lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	why are there turbocharged motorbikes north america article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes just got thinking why don manufacturers still make bikes with turbos etc because they add lot expense and complexity and make for less reliable and less controllable bike extreme example the turbo cost much mike hailwood replica ducati david edmondson davide dcs qmw queen mary westfield college dod guzzi mans this means the end the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	what with cats and dogs james bessette jimbes cbnewsj att com wrote article hplsla com kens hplsla com ken snyder writes also heard from dog breeder that the chains bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved chase ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also cam chain mike mike mitten gnome org emory org gnome ama dod irony the spice life bianchi backstreet suzuki the revolution will not televised
rec.motorcycles	boom hubcap attack from speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer was attacked rabid hubcap once was going work yamaha twin the vibrating tank when heard wierd noise off left caught glimpse something silver headed for left foot and jerked about nanosecond before bike was hit hard the left rest deleted anyone else had this sort experience dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can actually hubcap attacks are fairly common most cagers being too incompetant reinstall them properly after changing tires check them after collisions luckily few are heavy the one that got you moore dod don forget the immortal swap file read error you lose your mind
rec.motorcycles	gpz runs like bitch tried mailing you but your domain seems not exist can even get sinet slb com admit knowing about geco anyway here article innjl griffin orpington sgp slb com you wrote subject gpz runs like bitch anyone have cure for sub zero running probs gpz anything below revs and the bike wants cut out all the time the recommended cure the bike mags seems switch off the engine for minute thaw the ice but this obviously not mutch cure mine has had the kawasaki heated carb mod but the problem persists covered the rad which makes the bike run warmer and moves the problem down the temp scale degree two has anyone tried dynojet kit the getting desperate different carbs the fuel injection off the gpz have you talked kawasaki maybe they did another version the upgrade kit got worth phone call did you the carb mod did you buy secondhand from someone who said that had been done that orpington kent have you heard the ogri mailing list which run its email list for bikers the and interested parties available live daily digest let know you want subscribe good luck dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw queen mary westfield college dod guzzi mans this means the end the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	where can afford goldwing mirror searched without luck for faq here need left aspencade mirror and honda wants for now this were another piece chrome replace the black plastic that wings come liberally supplied with might able see that silly price but mirror piece safety equipment the fact that honda clearly places concern for their profits ahead concern for safety enough convince that this third wing will likely last the mean time anyboby have non ripoff source for mirror keith smith keith hydra unm edu
rec.motorcycles	latest socal rides southern california ridelist please send any updates this ride list remember only street rides that are open all bikers are posted please inc phone for further info also send your mail address you want mailed copies this list suggest calling first make sure that info current you find out further info please let know strive for accuracy but cannot responsible for errors mail address paulb harley tti com coffee donuts live music food drinks available changes since last posting address end posting apr annual laughlin river run rides the run from points all over socal concerts poker runs parties etc etc this sponsored the southern calif harley dealer assoc but all bikes are welcome reservations are only any socal harley dealer river run hotline discount room reservations concert tix tues sat noon apr annual racing memorabilia show sale art prints photos lithos models books apr scma route tour apr scma trac gypsy tour santa monica john lane apr tax time run for the money abate pins prizes games raffles free you join twin city brea canyon walnut manny apr annual gwta loma linda children hospital benefit run free start hot dogs etc finish skip fordyce motors indiana ave riverside apr mma state overnighter frazier park apr yuma prison run mailin gate camping apr paso robles clean sober run paso robles fairgrounds apr shamrock annual scenic byways tour starts routes simi valley honda ave cycles parts baseline san bernadino picnic bbq lake hughes apr mra chap poker run american legion south peris steve hill may ama grand nat dirt track series race pomona fairplex may kpfk centerstand radio show and the car show will broadcast live from autobooks etc magnolia burbank carshow starts noonb centerstand may abate poker run east end bucklin park imperial valley includes food entertainment barbara may pmc annual greenhorn tour may song dog ranch spring rally overnight camping this famousmotorcycle campground all you can eat drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve april song dog ranch new cuyama ojai keep trying this number may bsa owner club spring ride castaic landing may album release celebration helmet laws suck billy gordon the blue rockers vida hot springs lambert east miles left special guests raffle may annual spring round rodeo abate many bike games pins raffle starts games noon couple free you join robbies restaurant hwy btwn perris lake elsinore george susan allen melanie may swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa may cnty swap meet may christian assn socal rally first assembly god church nisqually victorville bob quintard may mother with the most may annual awareness day abate american legion hall gardena crnr normandie gardena vendors raffles games etc free pin doc carol dieter may blue knights annual benefit ride starts cycle parts west san diego harold crosby may run for the wall from truck stop where meet ontario camping motels available each night stop rides ends the vietnam veterans memorial wall washington bikes are expected meet there call rod coffey alt info send john anderson deer creek way paso robles call him may long beach parts exchange veterans memorial stadium may jamboree tulare cnty fairgnds tulare ride show benefit poker run sun raffles games starts noon friday under free for under may blazing saddles tour scma may ariel owners club annual event greenfield ave chuck walton jun fun the sun ride mma bakersfield jun class act tour jun silver eagles run palomar san diego jun ventura swap show the shop ventura fairgnds jun annual summer solstice poker run pig feed abate couple free you join pig roast games raffles swimming pins swallows inn ortega hwy san juan capistrano earl rick jun mma bike fest mariposa fairgrounds hwy hwy miles camping available trade show games advance gate info tix jun hope house benefit run scma jul bike show accessories unltd jul abate christmas july jul beach ride benefit the exceptional children foundation jul abate old timers poker run jul annual unicoastal ride and joust starts all over the west coast and goes pine glen campground near mammoth lakes for day weekend fun with the usenet personalities your fond flaming get the mail list contact joust request harley tti com jul iron horse poker run jul annual national ride work day jul quaff palomar annual overnighter jolla campgrounds jul annual summer food run abate jul swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa aug accessories unltd ride aug hot august nights poker run aug tour scma area aug song dog ranch summer rally overnight camping this famous motorcycle campground classical all you can eat drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve aug song dog ranch new cuyama ojai keep trying this number aug vets benefit run trac aug mma chicken roast camarillo park sep annual flags classic juarez mexico southern alberta canada person received frank weed try sep abate golden state rendezvous fri noon mon mid state fairgrounds paso robles sep iron horse rocket run sep black gold poker run taft sep redwood run sep bonanza tour shamrocks oct swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa oct song dog ranch fall rally overnight camping this famous motorcycle campground all you can eat drink bbq dinner sunday bkfst person reserve oct song dog ranch new cuyama ojai keep trying this number oct scma grand tour oct easyriders motorcycle rodeo antelope valley fairgrounds hwy ave exit right lancaster oct annual griffith park sidecar rally mineral springs area the park doug bingham oct mra chap ride nov love ride benefit the muscular dystrophy assoc sponsored glendale san fernando glendale nov toy key run scma area nov awareness day abate nov accessories unlimited posse ride dec swap meet orange county fairgnds costa mesa dec hathaway children center toy run ongoing events notices swap meet show santa springs drive alondra blvd thurs fee note that april was moved free seminars every saturday luftmeister inc long beach tune centerstand radio program for motorcyclists every saturday from kpfk parents out partners club meets sat cocos brea colina road diamondbar new club for women only forming diamonds and pearls marc motorcycling amateur radio club meets sat denny santa ana net weds info ray bonnie addresses follows camp from fwy north azusa ave hwy east fork miles east camp hint look for bridge accessories unlimited lyons ave newhall cycle parts west beach blvd westminister
rec.motorcycles	bmwmoa controversy article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech msstate edu craig vechorik writes good boys that have been there too long while agree with you that the current board garbage voting you would simply trading one form trash for another the opponents your selections get equal time joe why don you post what you really think there are any rational bmwmoa folks left out there may the rest please have brief summary the current state affairs your esteemed organization together with historical outline how you got the above contretemps points will deducted for shouting bulging veins the temple area pete ahrens
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses off article lsp mginnud cash utexas edu mcguire utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire writes however this has nothing with motorcycling unless you consider the bike however this has nothing with motorcycling unless you consider the amazona bike keith hanlan keithh bnr bell northern research ottawa canada
rec.motorcycles	bmw battery keith hanlan the wed apr gmt wibbled article apr msstate edu vech msstate edu craig vechorik writes remember correctly the reason that bmw come with those expensive and relatively worthless short lived varda batteries cause bmw owns controling interest that battery manufacturer what wrong with the bmw battery never had problems and know numerous people that are still using the original battery there year old beemers kay still has her original battery she nick the sufficiently well charged biker dod concise oxford lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	why are there turbocharged motorbikes north america article dcs qmw davide dcs qmw dave edmondson writes extreme example the turbo cost much mike hailwood replica ducati can scrounge good looking turbo will someone trade mhr duc for jeff earls jearls tekig pen tek com dod kottg kotspt wmtc ama millennium falcon squid factor klr thumpy hit the button chewie han solo there ain nothin like mph sweeper the idaho rockies
rec.motorcycles	der whassa deltabox article unisql uucp ray unisql uucp ray shea writes can someone tell what deltabox frame and what relation that has any the frame hawk that way next time some guy comes some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike that deltabox frame there can say something besides duh huh deltabox registered trademark yamaha used describe their aluminum perimeter frame design used the fzr and fzr cross section has five sided appearance probably really should called pentabox dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle security saw his bike parked front bar few weeks later without the dog and wandered find out what had happened said somebody stole damn dog they left the harley behind dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	tickets advice worth what you paid can think another subject that generates much contradictory advice traffic laws and their enforcement everybody got opinion and dead certain they are right yet acurate information extremely difficult come the dmv doesn know cops don know your traffic school instructor doesn know the vehicle code only tells part the story judges choose interpret the laws wide variety ways and the public large seldom hear any advice that doesn disagree with something experienced you don believe suggest you get copy the vehicle code study and then sit day two court and see what really happens read fight your ticket too but don miss the little section the end where says your chances are lousy and you basically screwed you may have guessed pretty down the system here california carefully prepared for court bringing witnesses and revealing serious holes the officer story only slapped with the maximum allowable fine plus assessments over the message clear that the judge does not appreciate john public trying his own cases here advice when you find yourself with ticket take traffic school you can serious matter get lawyer lawyer can present the exact same case you the difference the sentence paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	bike sold over net miles away article hplsla com kens hplsla com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there love hear about bought vfr from guy san jose via the net that miles according odometer mark andy living pittsburgh bought his from dude massachusetts was connecticut axel
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day passenger helmets you don know for certain who gonna ride with you like say you meet them church meeting yeah that the ticket what are some guidelines should just pick another shoei size have backup helmet should maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger your primary concern protecting the passenger the event crash have him her fitted for helmet that their size your primary concern complying with stupid helmet laws carry real big spare you can put big small head big helmet but not small one green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	dot tire date codes rec motorcycles cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes the nedod mailing list and jack tavares suggested check out how old the tire one tactic for getting replaced does anyone have the file how read the date codes handy quite simple the code the week and year manufacture rich sturges nswc carderock division speak for one else and listen the same
rec.motorcycles	bike sold over net miles away article hplsla com kens hplsla com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there love hear about bought moto guzzi from univ grad student charlottesville last spring mark cervi cervi oasys navy mil dod mgnoc moto guzzi what kinda bikes that moto guzzi what that its italian mark cervi carderockdiv nswc code annapolis cervi oasys navy mil
rec.motorcycles	bikes and contacts article apr skcla monsanto com mpmena skcla monsanto com writes michael manning must that blockhead yours the gargoyles are the only thing that work for michael menard when you showin highland house compare sunglasses let see how the weather saturday sunday sucks today what time good you welcome give any the ones have try for the gargoyles you want mine you can have think the bridge nose holds them too far from face same deal for the two friends who tried them for people who use them with full face helmet all bets are off sorry they fit you well and took complaint personally yes the oakleys are much more desirable squid attire also the gargoyles aren that ugly even opinion wouldn have tried them michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati
rec.motorcycles	bikes contacts lenses radial keratotomy article rice edu jcn rice edu writes was going try radial keratotomy but they want over per eye that lot contact lenses and sunglasses and lot money they make one tiny mistake jeff nichols also they don get exactly right your eyes change again contacts correct for are out the question this due the strange conical shape your cornea takes after the surgery michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati
rec.motorcycles	ducati opinions wanted article qhm mbs news ysu edu albion bowers yfn ysu edu writes yeah mph the quarter such slug come when was the last time you used your max power peak think maybe you should ride one first before passing judgement there lot more than just maximum acceleration really didn mean imply that ninja was any better than duc have talked few duc owners owners particular who say that the power something less than overwhelming that said would love have guess should have been bit more specific you have something that weighs that same the for the extra cubes think that fact that own gtv shows that don care about maximum power slug though the exclusion everything else the note and the handling are more important just bought ninja because couldn afford duc didn mean ruffle any feathers probably getting next year mark mark burnham markb novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	rejetting carbs article jburney hydra nodc noaa gov jburney hydra nodc noaa gov jeff burney writes are only talking about stroke think can understand exhaust pulse affect stroke the intake valve closed the exhaust stroke and the gas pushed out the cyclinder guess there some gas compression that may affect the amount pushed out but the limiting factor seems the header pipe and not the canister meaning would gases far down the line the canister really have effect the exhaust stroke the gases really compress that much for discussion purposes will ignore dynamic effects like pulses the exhaust pipe and try paint useful mental picture unless engine supercharged the pressure available force air into the intake tract atmospheric the time the intake valve opened the pressure differential available move air only the difference between the combustion chamber pressure left over after the exhaust stroke and atmospheric the piston decends the intake stroke combustion chamber pressure decreased allowing atmospheric pressure move more air into the intake tract time does the pressure ever become negative even approach good vacuum the time the exhaust valve closing the pressure the combustion chamber essentially the pressure the exhaust system the first major flow restriction the muffler note that the volume gas that must flow through the exhaust much larger than the volume that must flow through the intake because the temperature difference and the products combustion the last years the japanese manufacturers have started paying attention exhaust and intake tuning pursuit almighty horsepower this point time high performance bikes substitution aftermarket free flow air filter will have almost zero affect performance because the stock intake system flows very well anyway substitution aftermarket exhaust system will make very little difference unless general the new exhaust system much louder than the stocker older bikes exhaust back pressure was the dominating factor free flowing air filters were substituted very little difference was noted unless free flowing exhaust system was installed well general engine can visualized air pump any given rpm anything that will cause the engine pump more air the intake exhaust side will cause produce more horsepower pumping more air will require recalibration rejetting the carburetor dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding personally follow the alcohol rule when bike view that you have such high degree control that any alcohol could potentially hazardous bike get hurt own fault but don want wreck katana developed this philosophy from impromptu experiment had one beer the evening and had volleyball practice wasn even close leagle intoxication but couldn perform even the most basic things until this made think about how viewed alcohol and intoxication you may seem fine but your reactions may affected such that you unable recover from hitting rock even just gust wind greatly enjoy social drinking but for just doesn mix with riding max enjoyment eric
rec.motorcycles	got bike was wanted advice purchase thanks all you who gave advice the custom recommended had the bike compression tested compression was little low but very even across the four cylinders psi they said that was tested little cold that would explain the low numbers around does this sound right otherwise the bike looked great signs road rash and rust this bike looks great now the shop getting tuned and new tires opting for the metzler and tires thanks those who posted this other thread this bike big compared other bikes sure alot harder load trailer than the kdx was should road legal tomorrow ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking chances being reletively new reader quite impressed with all the usefull info available this newsgroup would ask how get own dod number but probably too busy riding jamie burnside jburnside mit edu
rec.motorcycles	what about fault insurance companies sure seem for fault coverage since the majority accidents are the cagers fault doesn this imply that would have pay much higher rates under fault system with cars only system seems make sense the surface take the legal costs out the system but looks like motorcyclists would get screwed michael chuck bain meb icdfs boeing com semi loud pipes save lives
rec.motorcycles	rejetting carbs now jumping into the middle this thread may not know what all been talking about but have few comments rec motorcycles davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes unless engine supercharged the pressure available force air into the intake tract atmospheric the time the intake valve opened the pressure differential available move air only the difference between the combustion chamber pressure left over after the exhaust stroke and atmospheric the piston decends the intake stroke combustion chamber pressure decreased allowing atmospheric pressure move more air into the intake tract time does the pressure ever become negative even approach good vacuum there are number other factors that are very important the three biggest being air velocity air momentum and shock waves velocity stacks have been used for years and are now being used inside stock airboxes number bikes tuned engine rpm the stacks can greatly increase the speed and thus momentum the air rushing air momentum critical getting good air intake the momentum the air stack outside the combustion chamber will force its way inside long after the piston has begun its compressive stroke shock waves are used induce air intake and prevent fresh air from escaping out the exzhaust ports shock waves are the product expansion chambers any other means presenting wall opening closing the air motion beyond this lost the mystery how they design for shock waves rich sturges nswc carderock division speak for one else and listen the same
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped shoei off the seat bike while trying rock onto centerstand chipped the heck out the paint cheerfully spent bottle testor model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes the question for the day passenger helmets you don know for certain who gonna ride with you like say you meet them church meeting yeah that the ticket what are some guidelines should just pick another shoei size have backup helmet should maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger rule thumb don give rides people that wear bigger helmet than you unless your taste runs that way they are family friends gee reminds dancer hull just over the river from ottowa that saw few years ago for her would bought bigger helmet even her own bike anything else she wanted there are only two types ships the navy submarines and targets dod next raise richard pierson vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer opinions are own don shop malls buy jeans jackets and ammo the same store
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses off article apr dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article castle wbg festival geake writes the banana one isn imho ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead wheel clamps putting one about size each window the cage what your local hospital favorite curse may your skin stick frozen bed pan may your apple juice mistakenly drawn from the urinalisys lab there are only two types ships the navy submarines and targets dod next raise richard pierson vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer opinions are own don shop malls buy jeans jackets and ammo the same store
rec.motorcycles	contact person for boots article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf columbia edu robert castro writes would anyone out there dodland able help out giving contact purchase pair military air borne combat boots size these boots have read here rec moto are calf height boots that use only velcro for enclosure have phoned around and nobody seems carry such item admit have not gone into the deepest bowels nyc yet for the search but have made some calls several the bigger army navy type stores with luck anyone out there know place that does carry such item well does mail order any help would appreciated currently there are velcro jump boots issue the military there are two other kinds one made cochran and sell for either the clothing sales store cavalry price match the cav store the second also sold but somewhat cheaper design actually they don care what you wear long they are eyelets high there another boot called tankers boot this has similar construction wellington boot except for the boot shape and has straps that wrap around for tightness nice boots there are only two types ships the navy submarines and targets dod next raise richard pierson vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer opinions are own don shop malls buy jeans jackets and ammo the same store
rec.motorcycles	should liability insurance required have one thing say about fault would isn there are only two types ships the navy submarines and targets dod next raise richard pierson vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer opinions are own don shop malls buy jeans jackets and ammo the same store
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle security article tekgen tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes saw his bike parked front bar few weeks later without the dog and wandered find out what had happened said somebody stole damn dog they left the harley behind animal rights people have been know that other bike riding dogs cats and racoons there are only two types ships the navy submarines and targets dod next raise richard pierson vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer opinions are own don shop malls buy jeans jackets and ammo the same store
rec.motorcycles	should buy vrf mark bricker mnb rit edu wrote the market for bike and have recently found honda vrf dealership the bike has about miles and around has had two previous owners both employees the dealership who have been told took very good care the bike have two questions this too many miles for bike know this would not many miles for car but unfamiliar with the life span bikes this decent price also unfamilar with prices for used bikes there blue book for bikes like there for cars thanks for any advice you can give mark mark not too many miles vfr sold well maintained vfr with miles and the engine was mint condition all that the bike needed was steering head bearings and fork bushings and seals the guy who bought had mechanic pull the valve covers look the top end compression check etc confirmed was mint for price seems little steep bought with miles year ago and absolutely cherry condition for there bluebook ask your bank credit union for the going price seen couple ads for vfr the dollar range they all said low miles mint condition but didn actually look them vfr very sweet bike and will last you forever you maintain all one thing look for btw soft front end vfr any indication miles the fork springs were totally shot progressive springs fixed right good luck ken snyder loc hewlett packard lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte everett kens lsid com
rec.motorcycles	should buy vrf mark bricker mnb rit edu wrote the market for bike and have recently found honda vrf dealership the bike has about miles and around has had two previous owners both employees the dealership who have been told took very good care the bike have two questions this too many miles for bike know this would not many miles for car but unfamiliar with the life span bikes this decent price also unfamilar with prices for used bikes there blue book for bikes like there for cars thanks for any advice you can give mark ken snyder loc hewlett packard lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte everett kens lsid com
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses off reading all you folks things illegally parked cars made wonder who going carry cinder blocks bike ready serious damage key carvings etc cage then had idea chain lube isn just for chain anymore seems more reasonable permanent damage but lots work get off don ask how know use anywhere the windshield the door handles the keyhole etc what nasty mood raining again ken snyder loc hewlett packard lsid lake stevens instrument div soper hill road gte everett kens lsid com
rec.motorcycles	bikes horses was insect impacts previous article npet bnr nick pettefar says jonathan quist the thu apr gmt wibbled article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes previous article egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher says lots things none which are quoted here the nice thing about horses though that they break down the middle nowhere you can eat them and they rather tasty fuel bit cheaper too per gallon bushel perhaps unfortunately they eat the same amount every day matter how much you ride them and you don fuel them they die annual basis spend much less bike stuff than amy the wonder wife does horse stuff she has two horses got umm lesseee bikes ride constantly she rides four five times week even you count insurance and the cost the garage built getting off cheaper than she and having more fun imho fast take chances mike
rec.motorcycles	more dod paraphernali from stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford article pppnrinnitg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis wrote how about decal thicker vinyl how about geeky temporary tatoo mean why should the rubs exempt from little razzing that sick want you make promise order wannabe badtothebone the cheesy live ride eagles are sitting shelf waiting for the big ride down the coast now looks like may hit points farther south than expected how get contact with bay area denizens replies address below charlie will along early mid may seriously like the idea temporary geekys geekies geekae geekii fits the whole dod image sounds bad but really worse ryan cousinetc yamaha vision black pig inverness live ride kotrb ajs king rat work dod squid could afford the bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver canada live john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply slmr lucas built weapons wars wouldn start either computer dynamics bbs hst vancouver canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle courier subject motorcycle courier summer job like thank everyone who replied will probably start looking earnest after may when return from trip down the pacific coast the geographical feature not the bike ryan cousinetc yamaha vision black pig inverness live ride kotrb ajs king rat work dod squid could afford the bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver canada live slmr have bike will travel quickly very quickly computer dynamics bbs hst vancouver canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die article qegpf sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes know sounds ludicrous for biker advocate restrictions biking biking forum don you mean former motorcyclist roid
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article apr megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes the rider pilot happy had such effect your choice words seth was time when could get respectable response with posting like that randy post doesn count cause saw the dearth responses and didn want feel ignored thanks randy was curious about this dod thing how get number roid
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article oxz cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes anyone who true rider with the real riding attitude will offer wave weather they are harley honda some other bike inless they have serious case bike better than your and you too low acknowleged this you find the case with most the harley riders out here where however still give them wave and ride secure the knowlege that better persob than they are huh roid
rec.motorcycles	recommendation for front tire article hrxj ace unix amherst edu nrmendel unix amherst edu nathaniel endell writes ken orr orr epcot spdc com wrote article unix amherst edu nrmendel unix amherst edu nathaniel mendell writes steve mansfield smm rodan net wrote yes front tire all but dead has minimal tread left time for new one any recommendations good tire front riding almost brand new back steve mansfield the system learned says equal under smm uunet net but the streets are reality the weak and poor will fall suzuki let tip the power balance and tear down the crown dod educate the masses burn the white house down queensryche speak the word the best thing match front and back given that the perfect such good tire just with that one the perfect rear the match for the front the laser dod ama orr epcot spdc com yeah what said nathaniel dod yes you definitely need front tire motorcycle grin
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks article qmvutinn lynx unm edu galway chtm eece unm edu denis mckeon writes heavy traffic slow down bit mostly have more buffer zone front balance the minimal buffer behind but also often find that the jerk behind will notice traffic moving faster other lanes switch into one them and pass which fine because then can keep better eye the jerk from behind while looking ahead rather than from front while splitting attention between ahead and the mirrors this pretty damned complicated just make back off motion with hand arm and the second third time even the most braindead cager backs off they don back off then find way get the hell out there the cager either psychotic drunk just complete asshole any case don want anywhere near and especially not front curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	choking ninja problem article apr kuhub ukans edu starr kuhub ukans edu writes need help with put supertrapp slip and had the carbs jetted match set filters that replaced the stock airbox now have huge flat spot the carburation about thousand rpm most any gear this especially frustrating the highway the bike likes cruise about mph which happens rpm sixth gear had tuned and this doesn seem help thinking about new carbs the injection system from gpz does anyone have any suggestions for fix besides restoring stock starr kuhub ukans edu the brain dead ted nugent sound like that your carbs are not jetted properly you did yourself take shop and get done right shop did get your money back and another shop bennett leve sabre drowning throw orlando bagel hoggle hoggle bleve peora sdc ccur com
rec.motorcycles	airhorns review for those you who are thinking about fiamms you might also want think about airhorns just installed set bosch air horns ordered from dennis kirk the latest catalog they are rated meters installed them using gage wire from the battery the relay the compressor ground stock horn connectors fit the relay pins just fine soldered the connections the relay and compressor and used crimp type battery connector and inline amp fuse connector from napa installed the compressor just forward the fuse box the front fairing tie wrapping between the steering head frame and the black steel tube frame used support the front fairing you have remove the front fairing this but fits outside the frame but inside the fairing the two vertical supports just front the fuses depending how tight your fairing follows the frame you should able fit somewhere the fairing the compressor about diameter and about long the relay mounted the front the steering head frame small there should plenty good places for found perfect place for the horns that required only tie wraps mount the horns fit inside the front fairing frame and stick out either side just front the air scoops but behind the turn signals the back the horns point back towards the center the bike and come real close where the gas tank connects the front part the frame there just enough room the outside allow full lock lock clearance and there are nice cut outs the frame for the back the horn into the short horn even with the fairing and the long one sticks out about inch but really not that noticable unless you look closely they end pointing down slightly and maybe degrees from straight ahead perfect for those cagers trying change lanes into you you have any other questions about the mounting email and can try explain better your bike not red then you may want paint them first how they work you ask they are very very very loud they sound more like european sports car than truck but vast improvement over stock have used them least daily since installing them and the amp fuse has not blown yet although the duration the horn blasts have been short repeatedly scared the shit out friends with them even though they know that have the horns they still jump they are perfect for keeping the pedestrians the sidewalk the bottom line they work are loud enough cause pain and suffering those stupid lane changing cages well take few years off their lives and are relatively easy install the ymmv tjk with get out way horns that looks like suit you fight fire comment about the aerostich
rec.motorcycles	buying advice needed looking for advice buying susuki does anyone out there know about any inherent flaws the bike may have problems should look for what about insurance rates this bike blacklisted also person who has never ridden motorcycle yet buying start off with crazy have been told some people start out small and others that lage enough handle right off from the start pounds because some others might tad bit small yeah one more question anybody the chicago area know any good instruction schools programs where could get aquanted before just buy one and kill myself getting home thanks brian please email direcly because not get much chance read your group thanks again
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes all seem agreement that there are two explanations for why one can use the handlebars lean moving motorcycle the question one the effect dominant and which one the idea would design experiment which would seaprate the two characteristics and see which effect produces similar result the one with which those who have bikes are familiar you point out the experiments would difficult but know enough about the physics the situation some calculations there are fact three effects contributing leaning the bike over begin turn gyro effect causing torque which twists the bike over contact patch having shifted one side causing bike fall over contact patch being accelerated the side causing torque which twists the bike over take average bike rider average bike wheel and speeds and mph say calculate how much twist the bars would needed produce say degrees lean say seconds each effect alone guess that slow speeds dominant and high speeds dominant and all speeds contributes not far off bugger all relatively speaking the way similar problem this how does runner who wants run round corner get leaned into the corner fast there running group where could start counter footing arguments and have them all falling over they tried work out how they round corners chris malcolm cam aifh department artificial intelligence edinburgh university forrest hill edinburgh dod
rec.motorcycles	kawasaki for sale included thas sale cover the cover not sold separately the trailer not being sold pat
rec.motorcycles	info sport cruisers looking for sport cruiser factory installed fairings full half hard saddle bags and above and all that and still has that sporty look particularly like the and any the series bmw bikes was wondering there are any other comparable type bikes being produced companies other than bmw thanks for the info jae jae cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack azw aber andy woodward writes better still reverse this sequence then hit the bugger under accelleration stabilise yourself hate things that attack the dog thinks you have run away has established dominance over these funny noisy sheep things and will attack every bike that comes along for the fun you can hurt the bugger learns that below bikes the peck order and you may have saved the life future biker whose evasive action avoid the dog might otherwise put him under truck never avoid dog for the dog sake only you own hate admit this but there does seem some sort twisted logic this approach the bikers against the world and the dogs are just another worthless adversary remember wear least calf height leather boots case the dog gets lucky and sinks his teeth into your attacking foot and for the gusto that dog doesn retreat from the street with his tail between his legs next time you see then you really haven done your bit for all your fellow bikers this also applies cages sorry can this far dog against and armored cage just doesn seem like fair fight the dog out control menace all road users and compunction should felt ensuring your safety means the destruction after all forcing the game not you after all dog eat dog world dave
rec.motorcycles	more moa stuff like the got hotly contested bmwoa election and some inept leadership question the history the bmw organization that lead the formation the bmwra was there something going the years ago that precipitated the formation two competing owner groups just stave off flames relatively new member both groups and besides difference the slickness the magazines seems the major difference that the guys seem have more fun art art campbell artc world std com compuserve com dod real bmws have just two wheels opinion there nothing this world beats vincent and redheaded girl richard thompson
rec.motorcycles	happy easter ranck joesbar edu ranck writes nick pettefar npet bnr wrote english cars rover reliant morgan bristol rolls royce etc talk about harleys using old technology these morgan people really like use old technology think their suspension design hasn changed since they went from wheels back the and not like they had reached the pinnacle good design that point either well you want pick morgan why not attack its ash wood frame its hand bent metal skin just try and get replacement thought the kingpost suspension was one the mog better features karen black
rec.motorcycles	dogs biker and dog lover first and foremost want mention some common sense choice between injuring killing dog getting yourself injured killed there only one rational decision only the most insane animal rights kook would put the dog first second useful learn how read dog body language how you react dog who chasing you because thinks game and that you playing with him completely different from how you react dog which has hostile intent third useful learn how present yourself dog dogs are social beasts and recognize domination submission hierarchy dog there are two types fellow creatures that which dominates and that which dominate him you need unambiguously represent yourself being the latter class you are god you are easily angered and your anger terrible but god also amused one who properly submits his dominance and may even rare occasions dispense kind word kind word even joy rapture unforeseen dog bisquit now how does that all relate biking well first good idea assume that most dogs who chase motorcycles because they think game and not out overt hostility the msf suggestion very good one when you see the dog coming slow down determines particular place interception just before you and reach that spot punch the throttle that when reaches you already long gone dogs take few seconds react new input and definitely cannot comprehend the acceleration that motorcycle capable with hostile dog one which you repeatedly encounter stronger measures may necessary this the face off first and there very important make sure you never face off dog his territory face him off the road not his driveway necessary have large stick rolled newspaper etc something the beast will understand something that will hurt him stand your ground then slowly advance your mental attitude that you are very angry and are going dispense terrible punishment the larger the dog the greater your anger dogs will pick anger just they can pick fear and since you and are not his home territory may suddenly dawn the dog that perhaps your territory and that you are prepared fight the death most dogs will decide that good idea retreat their own territory where there least home advantage they also observe that you are satisfied that retreat gesture submission and thus they have escaped punishment the interesting thing about dogs that body language communicates great deal them the more effective you are communicating body language the less you actually have after years with pound beast learned few tricks think
rec.motorcycles	misc buying info needed have been thinking about buying motorcycle while now and have some questions there buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how about the buying process what look for etc there pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book also are there any books articles riding cross country motorcycle camping etc there idiots guide motorcycles any related information helpful please respond directly thanks lot jordan
rec.motorcycles	draining battery have problem with the battery honda nighthawk every week dead and have recharge ride the bike every day the battery new and the charging system was checked thoroughly and seems fine suspicion that draining somewhere you have any idea about what causing this problem please help since mechanic and are clueless ljubomir
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect rec motorcycles klinger ccu umanitoba jorg klinger writes apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes most people wave return wave when harley other harley riders seldom wave back when duck squids don wave return waves ever even each other from what can tell when take hand off the bars fall down the problem that squids and badassbikers can recognize each other waves when you riding cruiser you wave lifting two three fingers the left hand without first removing that hand from the handlebar when you riding crotch rocket you lower the left hand about ankle level palm forward and call that wave generic bike riders actually seem raise the hand entirely off the handlebar and wave around easy tell when they waving chris
rec.motorcycles	lane sharing three years riding the cities san jose santa clara and sunnyvale never came into any conflict with the local police over lane splitting habits all three these cities were listed earlier being anti splitting one way another can say whether this was due luck police kindness there not actually being any ordinances against these cities continue revco
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes previous posting dog attacks must have generated some bad karma something weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down screw dog triangulation target then take off and laugh the dog now far behind you this time didn work because didn have time riding the hill leading house encountered liver and white springer spaniel relation the springer softail the springer spagthorpe close relation the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered with intent harm interesting dog collision story deleted what worries about the accident this don think could have prevented except traveling much slower than was this not necessarily unreasonable suggestion for residential area but was riding around the speed limit worry about what would have happened had been car instead dog but console myself with the thought that would take truly insane bdi cager whip out blind driveway mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for car hit mph the end eagerly await comment driveway and about half neighbor driveways are long enough good clicks mph for the velocity impaired wanted granted live the country however seen neighbors whip out their driveways the above mentioned mph quite bit they claim they can tell that there noone the road for quite ways this despite having nearly been hit myself one them while driving chev and twice taking speed bicycle over the hood car that had pulled out saw then stopped same driver same car about two months apart obmoto the scary relevant part that these people and live the type twisty two lane that all favor for riding and know damn well that they can see bike not they couldn see pickup ryan cousinetc yamaha vision black pig inverness live ride kotrb ajs king rat work dod squid could afford the bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver canada live slmr hurt dammit jim doctor right computer dynamics bbs hst vancouver canada easy access low rates friendly sysop there nothing like the pitter patter little feet followed the words hey you not daddy sorry had just once dean woodward you want step into world dean fringe rain com socio psychotic state bliss virago guns roses world dod
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well looks like cked for insurance had dwi and for the beemer rec vehicle cost almost bucks insure year now what sell the bike and the car and start taking the bus that way you can keep drinking which seems where your priorities lay expect that enough this list have lost friends because driving drunks that our collective sympathy will somewhat muted showing great restraint keith hanlan keithh bnr bell northern research ottawa canada
rec.motorcycles	ducati opinions wanted article qmnga news ysu edu yfn ysu edu albion bowers writes previous article bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner says guess out touch but what exactly the ducati twin desmo that half twin with the balance weight where the cylinder would second for isn bad all sorry should have been more specific the ran the quater the last small twin duc got the and the pantah based twin was the pantah and ran creditable modern carbs and what not should put the the high btw fzr ran mid and the latest crop japanese will out run that hard remember but but new goof will clobber old handily both top end and roll technology stands still for one not too hard remember bought new was place the speed wars behind the cbx eleven with mile and horses that wouldn even make good these days then again paid for technology isn the only thing that changed course still rather ride the old across three states than any the guess indication how much things have changed that second didn seem too far out line blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article apr cbnewsm att com shz mare att com keeper the tude writes huh roid completely different tack what was the eventual outcome babe the bad mouthed biker later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	happy easter karen black karen angelo amd com wrote ranck joesbar edu ranck writes nick pettefar npet bnr wrote english cars rover reliant morgan bristol rolls royce etc talk about harleys using old technology these morgan people really like use old technology well you want pick morgan why not attack its ash wood frame its hand bent metal skin just try and get replacement thought the kingpost suspension was one the mog better features hey wasn picking morgan they use old technology that all said there nothing wrong with using old technology people still use shovels dig holes even though there are lots new powered implements dig holes with bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this karr cornell edu david karr writes get the organization act easy say but says little about what one really can and should what the organization actually will largely determined the president and directors far can see that what makes important vote election officers remember right heard that the last election only the members actually cast votes wonder the current board and their friends and relatives make the membership certainly plan staying with the club long enough vote and see the results does strike that the bmwmoa lot less politically active the state and national arenas not infighting than other organizations should change this just join the other groups that already are politics wouldn support the moa becoming politically active that sense the ama already knows how that and rather see the moa support the ama manner that the ama needs think that more could accomplished from one strong front rather than two not neccessarily coordinated ones joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this vech msstate edu craig vechorik writes wrote the slash two blues for bit humor which seems lacking the moa owners news when most the stuff rode the the first day saw that rode there the second day saw this admit was surprise find something interesting read the most boring and worthless mag all the ones get any body out there know were the sense humor went people though still had mine but dunno think most people see your intended humor liked the article you seem forget that you stepped into the political arena well intentioned you may intend something you walking through china store carrying that your head everything you say says something about how you would represent the membership any given day you don have look far american politics see what few light hearted jokes about one segment the population can someone the limelight obmoto did manage squeak reference joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this cdw dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers writes going buy bmw just cast vote for groucho thought you were gonna buy bmw for its superior power and handling joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	ducati opinions wanted spoke sales dweeb ducati dealer here blighty and had nothing good say about them appears they are waaaay underpowered basically the with engine and there have been some quality problems rusty frame save your pennies buy the
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this first heard about academic politics but the same thought seems apply the bmwmoa the politics dirty because the stakes are small who cares get dues worth from the ads and occasional technical articles the news skip the generally drab articles about someone trek across iowa some folks get thrilled the power the bmwmoa they deserve whatever thrills their sad lives provide btw voted for new blood just keep things stirred henry prange physiology sch med blgtn dod bmwmoa gsi ride conv cage explorer cage the four tenets all major religions right you are wrong hence you deserve punished
rec.motorcycles	extraordinary footpeg engineering exb csdvax csd unsw edu wrote okay dod ers here goddamn mystery for goody love puzzle watson the games afoot today was turning degree corner just like any other day but there was slight difference rough spot right path caused the suspension compress mid corner and some part the bike hit the ground with very tangible thunk pulled over first opportunity sus out the damage stuff deleted okay all you engineering types how the you explain this how can you rip tightly fitting steel thread out threaded hole alloy without damaging the thread the hole this some sort tech design thingo let guess you were making left turn correct the edge the stud contacting the road caused turn and unthread itself you had been making right turn would have tightened the stud bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes mjs secondly the adhesion the mjs tyre the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance the mjs motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve avoid obstacles and mjs not the knowledge physics between the rider ears are you seriously mjs suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you corner faster mjs more competently than you could manage otherwise egreen east sun com writes not will hey you didn give the chance sheesh the answer absolutely eloquently describes put two riders identical machines the one who knows what doing and why that will faster may possible improve your technique you have idea what through trial and error but not very effective methodology only understanding the technique steering motorcycle can one improve that technique hold that this applies any human endeavor herein lies the key this thread kindly note the difference the responses and are talking about knowing riding technique while mike arguing knowing the physics behind possible taught the technique countersteering push the bar the inside the turn that way without having learn all the fizziks about gyroscopes and ice cream cones and such seen the parallel thread that stuff mainly interest techno motorcycle geeks like the readers rec motorcycles but doesn need taught the average student learning steering mike doesn seem able make the distinction know people who can carve circles around who couldn tell you who newton was the other hand know very intelligent well educated people who think that you steer motorcycle either leaning steering bicycles combination and knowledge physics doesn get you squat knowledge technique does bill
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article oxz cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes anyone who true rider with the real riding attitude will offer wave weather they are harley honda some other bike inless they have serious case bike better than your and you too low acknowleged may not wave just wink you with one eye course hard see that through shield and sunglasses but hey you true rider with the real riding attitude you sense chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	dogs article mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes with hostile dog one which you repeatedly encounter stronger measures may necessary this the face off first and there very important make sure you never face off dog his territory face him off the road not his driveway necessary have large stick rolled newspaper etc something the beast will understand something that will hurt him stand your ground then slowly advance your mental attitude that you are very angry and are going dispense terrible punishment the larger the dog the greater your anger this tactic depends for its effectiveness the dog conformance psychological norm that may not actually apply particular dog tried with some success before but won work charlie manson dog one that really really stupid large irish setter taught this yard apparently his territory one day sure was playing game with the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before can dispense the terrible punishment chuck rogers car torreys att com
rec.motorcycles	here the assholes article jrobbins apr kingston ucla edu you rambled about article lee seas ucla edu small thunder seas ucla edu james small writes here the asshole scooter owners who triple parked behind bike today jim calling other prople assholes what next you going flame learn spell besides assholeism endemic the two wheeled motoring community why believe that jason the wise respected hahahha has just made stereotypical remark how unsophisticated you sorry you had come out your ivory tower and stoop you would say obviously lower level besides geekism endemic the albino phoosball playing community and those who drive volvos remember send your flames jrobbins ucla edu need what formal education can not provide dod
rec.motorcycles	safe driving prcatices article cvbnetprime com rbemben timewarp prime com rich bemben writes never dilly dally that rear either side cage when you pass make positive possible and you can pass fully least make sure that you attempt you can make the driver aware you least getting into his area vision this reads lot like the philosophies musashi the book five rings much the section the long sword that being strong and decisive hmmm the more things change ride with four eyes what awfull thing call your pillion rich fear not the evil men the name evil but heaven protect from the evil men the name good power corrupts check out the explosion that the cryptography policy from the whitehouse friday has caused curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	misc buying info needed have been thinking about buying motorcycle while now and have some questions there buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how about the buying process what look for etc there pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book also are there any books articles riding cross country motorcycle camping etc there idiots guide motorcycles any related information helpful please respond directly thanks lot jordan also thanks jonathan fields fields cis ohio state edu
rec.motorcycles	need wheel does anyone have rear wheel for they like part with does anyone know where might find one salvage long getting the givi luggage for brunnhilde and have the room thought carry spare ride free bill johnsw wsuvm csc wsu edu prez bimc kotv kotrr dod ama spi wmtc kotd yamabeemer pdr special and volvo what more could anyone ask pain inevitable suffering optional
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die rec motorcycles egreen east sun com writes revving the throttle requires either dis engaging the clutch accelerating not harley chris
rec.motorcycles	max handling request article apr ntuvax ntu ntuvax ntu writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling remember commercial for some cheap top heavy import cage while back where the driver says while wearing stuck fake anouncers smile really goes straight fits
rec.motorcycles	got bike was wanted advice purchase article apr mit edu jburnside mit edu jamie burnside writes being reletively new reader quite impressed with all the usefull info available this newsgroup isn this redundent
rec.motorcycles	dogs article mrc ikkoku kan panda com mrc ikkoku kan panda com mark crispin writes biker and dog lover wonder bikers have such horrid reputation find human the interesting thing about dogs that body language communicates great deal them the more effective you are communicating body language the less you actually have agree completely unfortunately the majority feelings before can even start think rationally abhout the dog that trying kill are fear when there been moment set like you said bit down the road whatever never had problem with dogs curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	rgv and posing article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes article spam maths adelaide edu amydlak spam maths adelaide edu adam mydlak writes squid deleted helment laws vary from state state state louisiana the law personaly would not feet bike without one law law helment will save your life feet but draw the line blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	comments honda interceptor article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes considering the purchase honda interceptor for cdn about don know the mileage this bike but from the picture the trader magazine looks good shape can anybody enlighten whether this good purchase good bike this will first bike realize that for beginner considered too bit too much bike have heard from friends that were once beginners that they had start all over again that they would have started with bigger bike one just has careful and not drive outside their skill level had considered and posted about two weeks ago the purchase yamaha seca turbo with but little wary now about the prospect having deal with turbo both the road and the shop may still consider this bike the price dropped from cdn but the honda seems good bike comments one word heavy steers heavy turns require alot effort hard get access the large motor weak small front forks with anti dive gizmos
rec.motorcycles	bike for sale usa recently become father twins don think can afford keep bikes and babies both babies are staying the harleys going xlhd hey was wife bike speed chain secondary laced wheels buckhorns tachometer saddlebags supports sissy bar high flow air cleaner dark candy red jeff derienzo zorro tyngsboro
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu from xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive yes joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	flashing anyone article apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf columbia edu robert castro writes hello all bike have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since live and commute nyc there are number tolls one must pay route just before arriving toll booth switch the hazards thisto warn other motorists that will taking longer than the seconds make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back takes little more time than the average cager takes make the same transaction paying the toll also notice that when this cagers tend get the message and usually another booth question this good bad thing this sounds like very good thing any others tend the same will now whenever don have handy dandy automatic coin fetcher toll payer annette with thanks for the tip later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	antifreeze coolant for those you with motorcycles the liquid cooled persuasion what brand coolant you use and why looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe the kaw dealer wants quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant way paying that usury thanks chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	should liability insurance required article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes article tcora gator pica army mil tcora pica army mil tom coradeschi writes article apr walter bellcore com bzzzt the other driver fault your insurance pays you less deductible then recoups the total cost from the other guy gal company there fancy word for which escapes right now and pays you the deductible you can the other guy gal company right off just takes longer get your cash opposed state farm who cut check today the spot for the damage wife cage the word subrogation seems you willing wait for the money from scumbag insurance that you save having pay the deductible however scumbag insurance scum insurance then you may have pay the deductible get your insurance pack rabid large fanged lawyers recover the damages from scum insurance lawyers sad but true call job security for lawyers later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady you know sounds suspiciously like fault doesn even what was advertised doing getting the lawyers out the loop sigh another naive illusion down the toilet tommy mcguire mcguire utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com will append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information identifying personal and independent ibm
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect amazed the number harley riders who are waving even lowly baby ninja let keep the good attitudes brock yates said this months car and driver ready for war against those who would rather all rode busses bikers should too freedom that all wanna know and obsession some keep the world your rearview mirror while you try run down the sun wheels rhestless heart marty ninja motosport
rec.motorcycles	camping was help with backpack article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes article apr bnr dave dal farra gpz bnr writes crafty girfriend makes campfire bbq starters mcgiver well heck you going make them yourself you can buy candle wax the pound much cheper than the candles themselves hell just save your candle stubs and bring them light them and dribble the wax all over the kindling wood and light that although like the belly button lint eggshell case idea the best you feeling particularly industrious some eventful evening you can what did one soggy summer open the fuel line drain some onto piece rough rotten wood stick that into the middle the soon inferno and carefully strike match kurt vonnegut titled one the latter chapters cat cradle whoom works like charm every time dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks article nielsmm nanna imv aau nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day was raining cats and dogs therefor was going only the speed limit nothing more bike this guy his bmw was driving meters behind for meters and the next red light calmly put the bike its leg walked back this car rolled down the window and told him was total idiot and the reason why did the right thing yours truly niels mikkel yesss you make proud merkun good thing you didn get shot though don try that with good ole boy texas once had jeep driver south conroe cut off was car after had flipped him off for doing something really idiotic and senseless all lbs him stretches out his jeep walks back blocking all traffic between dallas and houston since the freeway has been squeezed into single lane and says stick that finger out again and rip off your hand and shove down your sorry ass throat stared straight ahead unblinking hundred cars were honking eventually got back into his jeep face beet red with anger and all the rest the way back houston tailed him waving honking flipping him off yelling glad decided not shoot dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article qjn sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes waterski bike you turn the handlebars left lean right just like motorcycle this supports the move the contact patch from beneath the centre mass theory how lean this contradicts the need for gyroscopic precession have countersteering induced lean for waterski bike contradicts nothing for motorcycle not only that but this morning saw for waterski bike sea doo for those who care watched the lengthy very carefully and every case and every speed the riders turned the handlebars left left and right right other words they were not countersteering perhaps only some waterski bikes which one countersteers curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	european insurance anyone europe got any advice for citizen whose going living and working italy for year and wants buy motorcycle there italian friend just arrived here washington state work for two years and she finding very very difficult obtain car insurance thought ask have license with motorcycle endorsement unlimited displacement and have had for years also washington state motorcycle safety instructor that info might help will post summary even just own personal experience buying bike and getting insured after get italy marc lewis there are two kinds people the world olivetti north america those who divide everything the world into marcl mail spk olivetti com two kinds things and those who don
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle detailing tip mbeaving bnr michael beavington writes don you just hate when the speedo and tach your bike start cloud over from all that nasty sunshine the detailing tip the week use rubbing compound moisten rag apply some rubbing compound and work into the translucent previously transparent material after few minutes working the plastic face the dial plastic face will clear once more will not work for glass btw not responsible for damages incurred when using the above method most models can use the treatment safely the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca seca suzuki seca turbo sabre gts can afford the mbeaving bnr mcguire makes plastic scratch removing compound and plastic polishing compound which really work great well
rec.motorcycles	shipping bike can someone recommend how ship motorcycle from san francisco seattle and how much might cost remember thread shipping someone saved the instructions bike prep please post again email thanks manish
rec.motorcycles	tire recomendation for wanted article apr cbnewsm att com asalerno cbnewsm att com antonio salerno writes got with chen shing tires got with these tires the only reason need new tires beacuse hate and don feel safe these appreciate any recomendations can get about new tires thanks tony throw vote for metzler economy tire the good for mid size older bikes rated mph wearing well and handles mile ride twisties work well the costs bit more than the chengs irc etc but still less than the sport metzlers for the newer bikes cost from chaparral about for the front and for the rear jon mike corcoran mike corcoran sandiego ncr com yamaha honda husky cross
rec.motorcycles	bdi experience kent polk kent swrinde nde swri edu wrote also watch your mirrors any time you are turning just had another close one last night preparing for right turn two lane road right turn signals starting the turn and this lady behind hits the throttle and starts pass the right this has happened twice before the have had this happen often enough that always look for ride work the morning come stop light where there are lanes direction one for left turns one for straight through and one for right turns all clearly marked plus there clearly marked bicycle lane ride into the right turn lane with signal and stop the stop line looking left see can make right turn red and when start move discovered that some idiot has pulled into the bike lane and trying pass the right grrr always head check bike lanes not always for bicycles bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this new bmw owner was thinking about signing for the moa but right now beginning look suspiciously like throwing money down rathole when you guys sort this out let know bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg
rec.motorcycles	shipping bike previous article manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij says can someone recommend how ship motorcycle from san francisco seattle and how much might cost hmmmmmm put your butt the seat and follow the road signs dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	antifreeze coolant article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes for those you with motorcycles the liquid cooled persuasion what brand coolant you use and why looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe the kaw dealer wants quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant way paying that usury prestone buy shopko for less than that gallon bmw has even more expensive stuff than kawasaki must from grapes only grown certain parts the fatherland but bmw dave said don worry about just change yearly and keep topped off been keeping gretchen happy since guess kept rabbit aluminum radiator hoppy for years and miles too guess aluminum safe former owner the late lamented rochester bmw motorcycles and all around good guy pooder rochester dod what you care what other people think richard feynman share garage space with gretchen harvey note the different reply address you want send mail
rec.motorcycles	bikes with big dogs article apr cua edu wendel cua edu writes has anyone ever heard rider giving big dog such great dane ride the back his bike dog would love could ever make work thanks wendel cua edu large malmute counts then yes someone has heard and seen such irresponsible childish stunt the dog needed assistance straightening out once board the owner would lift the front legs dog and throw them over the driver pilots shoulders said dog would get shit eating grin its face and away they the dogs ass was firmly planted the seat dog and this dog actively seek each other out camping party they hate each other think something personal steatopygias doh that ain hottentot sesquipedalian ama dod there ain more
rec.motorcycles	der whassa deltabox can someone tell what deltabox frame and what relation that has any the frame hawk that way next time some guy comes some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike that deltabox frame there can say something besides duh huh the yammie deltabox and the hawk frame are conceptually similar but yammie has the name the hawk purer twin spar frame design investment castings steering head and swing arm tied together with aluminum extruded beams the yammie solution bit more complex godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com dod ama rule never sell ducati the street finds its own rule always obey rule uses for things ducati cinelli toyota krups nikon sony apple telebit
rec.motorcycles	should liability insurance required article vtserf edu ranck joesbar edu ranck writes dan declerck declrckd rtsg mot com wrote states with fault auto insurance this applies you basically insure your own vehicle and the max you can sue for about anyway the point made with fault the fact that removes the lawyers from the system and lets people get their money faster the removal lawyers reduces the clogs court system and thus reduces government burdens not requiring many judges does work don know ask the people michigan ask the people new jersey where the fault hoax has been going for years last heard every state that ever got fault insurance saw increase rates know that what happened because lived there when changed just one more reason will never back that state bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg colorado agent tells that fault only applies the medical coverage
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this ranck ranck joesbar edu wrote new bmw owner was thinking about signing for the moa but right now beginning look suspiciously like throwing money down rathole concur with this the politics and bickering going has ruined bmwmoa because the politics and fighting going let current membership lapse when for renewal hesh bmwra the level far superiour publication opinion
rec.motorcycles	should liability insurance required tommy marcus mcguire mcguire utexas edu wrote you know sounds suspiciously like fault doesn even what was advertised doing getting the lawyers out the loop sigh another naive illusion down the toilet since most legislators are lawyers very difficult get any law passed that would cut down lawyers business that why fault insurance laws always backfire bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg
rec.motorcycles	max handling request article qjtr llb news ysu edu yfn ysu edu john daker writes previous article ntuvax ntu says hello there ican anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling you kidding right this flame bait the extreme max handling har har har har zero very fast very quickly lastest rumor the rear wheel handles like dream straight line and then gets tad upset according review cycle world cornering well you can have everything seriously handling probably good the big standards the early but not compareable whats state the art these days all this gleemed from reviews and discussions with owners too lust after this bike bradw newbridge com sig plan clue dod
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks article nielsmm nanna imv aau nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day was raining cats and dogs therefor was going only the speed limit nothing more bike this guy his bmw was driving meters behind for meters and the next red light calmly put the bike its leg walked back this car rolled down the window and told him was total idiot and the reason why did the right thing absolutely unless you are the then the cager will pull gun and blow you away bob mugele jungle bob email rmugele oracle com senior computational linguist phone oracle corp moto concours irving texas dod vegetarians eat vegetables beware the humanitarians bob
rec.motorcycles	got bike was wanted advice purchase article apr mit edu jburnside mit edu jamie burnside writes sure alot harder load trailer than the kdx was should road legal tomorrow ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking chances there should worries about the trans being reletively new reader quite impressed with all the usefull info available this newsgroup would ask how get own dod number but probably too busy riding does this count cat dod faq mailx hahahha jburnside mit edu waiting press return later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	what about fault article galileo rtn boeing com meb galileo rtn boeing com michael bain writes insurance companies sure seem for fault coverage since the majority accidents are the cagers fault doesn this imply that would have pay much higher rates under fault system with cars only system seems make sense the surface take the legal costs out the system but looks like motorcyclists would get screwed yup unfortunately has been pointed out the cost insurance does not down with fault the crappiest drivers make out like bandits because they longer have bear the responsibility paying for insurance that they have boosted price for themselves being crappy drivers the good drivers now pay through the nose spread the cost the crappy drivers actions and that not fair any plan that caps rates for crappy drivers inherently piece shit because the rest end paying more any plan that uses speeding tickets basis for raising rates also piece shit based upon the lie that faster drivers are inherently less safe than slower drivers and the nhtsa disproved that two years ago now later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped shoei off the seat bike while trying rock onto centerstand chipped the heck out the paint cheerfully spent bottle testor model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes the question for the day passenger helmets you don know for certain who gonna ride with you like say you meet them church meeting yeah that the ticket what are some guidelines should just pick another shoei size have backup helmet should maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger have the one say don stupid leave your helmet the seat where can fall down and boom that kind fall what the helmet designed protect against you fall with the helmet and you hit the same spot the helmet landed during the drop the helmet may not protect your head well was intended conservative rec moto ers will recommend that you replace the helmet you want sure that will protect you adequately you should helmets the ground table chair shelf any other surface that large enough support them that they will not easily knocked down jeezus new shoei would replace you think going leave chance cripe later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article apr cbnewsm att com shz mare att com keeper the tude writes the rider pilot practically every riceburner passed recently has waved and wondering will last could they simply overexuberant that their burners have been removed from winter moth balls and the novelty will soon dissipate perhaps the gray beard that sprouted since the last rice season makes them think friendly old fart that deserves wave maybe then again did you get rid that yorn and buy rice rocket your own that would certainly explain the friendliness unless you maybe had piece toilet paper stuck the bottom your boot rich rich bemben dod rbemben timewarp prime com triumph bonneville fear not the evil men the name evil but heaven protect from the evil men the name good
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle detailing tip chuck kuczaj csk wdl wdl loral com wrote mbeaving bnr michael beavington writes mcguire makes plastic scratch removing compound and plastic polishing compound which really work great well useful tip how about someone letting know motorcycle detailing tip the far side instrument panel was scuffed when the previous owner dumped the bike same true for one the turn signals both the scuffed areas are black plastic recall reading somewhere that there was some plastic compound you could coat the scuffed areas with then rub down ending with nice smooth shiny finish anyone any ideas thanks tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc lone oak drive eagan
rec.motorcycles	edu breaths article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan declerck writes the difference opinion and difference motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference only the minds certain closed minded individuals have had the very best motorcycling times with riders cruiser bikes don eddie yet ride anything but continuously this forum and the street you find quite difference between the opinions what motorcycling different individuals cruiser bike riders have different view motorcycling than those sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this not closed minded not recognize this effect close minded lot reminded rec motorcycles and the insipid flame age thereof you dislike occasionally leather clad poser pal why read scan for information lot noise and pointless flame age why used trn instead you have problem with that really sorry for you dan declerck email declrckd rtsg mot com motorola cellular apd friends don let friends wear neon phone
rec.motorcycles	edu breaths article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan declerck writes article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan declerck writes the difference opinion and difference motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference only the minds certain closed minded individuals have had the very best motorcycling times with riders cruiser bikes don eddie yet ride anything but continuously this forum and the street you find quite difference between the opinions what motorcycling different individuals yes yes yes motorcycling slightly different each and every one this the nature people and one the beauties the sport cruiser bike riders have different view motorcycling than those sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this not closed minded and what view exactly that every single rider cruiser bikes holds veiw that course sport bike rider could possibly hold please quantify your generalization for careful now you trying pigeonhole whole bunch people dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article apr hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes waterski bike you turn the handlebars left lean right just like motorcycle don think this the case least not all jetskis friend jetski bars turn left left anyway all you doing there changing the yaw the jets the relationship between the handlbars and the rear mounted jets completely arbitrary simple linkage could make work either way this supports the move the contact patch from beneath the centre mass theory how lean this contradicts the need for gyroscopic precession have countersteering induced lean seems that jetskis are even more irrelevant this discussion than snow skis but has been amusing digression hey how you explain the fact that you pull horse reins left left confusing two threads here phil stone new address pstone well motorcycles
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes article castle wbg festival geake writes ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead wheel clamps putting one about size each window the cage apartment complex where used live tried this only they put the thing over the driver window they couldn miss friend damned near wrecked the way home one night her vision blocked the sticker suggested the manager the enormous liability they were assuming pulling that stunt not that logic has anything with but can see the liability putting stickers the car while was moving something but the bdi that chooses start and then drive the car known unsafe condition that would seem liable furthermore they would have had the last chance avoid unsafe situation which additional factor attributing blame anyway stickers the window are less effective one has any problem taking blade window remove stubborn sticker but different story with that that nice paint job the door jeff jeffrey friedl omron corporation nagaokakyo kyoto japan jfriedl omron jfriedl cmu edu dod xbk cbr visiting researcher the mach project carnegie mellon pittsburgh
rec.motorcycles	splitfire plugs kinda offical whaz earlier was reading the net about using splitfire plugs one guy was thinking about and almost everybody shot him hell well saw one think that someone said about show team that used split fires well here some additional insight and some theories about splitfire plugs and how they boost oppossed cages splitfires were originally made burn fuel more efficiently and increased power for the cages well for these guys splitfires increased performance increasing torque they weren focusing horsepower numbers now how does this related high performance pilots well that depends you pilot high performance cylinder machine the case cylinders splitfires would increase overall torque but make more top end horsepower with its torque packed down low for splitfires would not significantly increase power but what about twins many you guys laugh some twins but many times carry less weight which sometimes can make for the loss see doug polen scott russell daytona however twins make more torque thoughout their powerbands how does this translate increased torque should theoretically help twins make more power splitfire claims that there should not extra mods anything made just stick now don know about all this and trying catch with somebody about now but splitfires should help twins more than far racing teams ducati team fast ferraci used splitfires the season this when they had jamie james running for but don know why they stopped since then also somebody check see they had them peace warren wcd uxa cso uiuc edu have suzuki will travel local fix shop the bike repairest looked dumped then asked the guy what happened dumped the clutch how fast pretty fast insurance nope the fixer smiled what you know about bikes not much
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks article rmugele apr oasun oracle com robert mugele rmugele oracle com writes absolutely unless you are the then the cager will pull gun and blow you away well would guess the probability bmw driver having gun would lower than some other vehicles least would more likely say something someone luxosedan than hopped pickup truck for example mark mark burnham markb novell com ama dod alfa romeo gtv ninja
rec.motorcycles	must daemon child article apr research nec com behanna syl syl nec com chris behanna writes article bethdc netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes bzzzzt was until discovered touring bike has nifty little cache for things like coins lipstick the new duc doesn have back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard the only denizen who thinks that the natural look the best look the thought kissing that waxy shit smeared all over woman lips definite turn off does clear lipstick chapstick etc fit under the natural look the waxy shit category wear something lips keep them from drying out kissing dry cracked parched lips isn too fun either not that ever kissing beth noemi not tom has anything say about you won noemi speaks for herself beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha excitable girl dod yamaha spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt can keep handle anything just this side deranged top
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes previous posting dog attacks must have generated some bad karma something weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down screw dog triangulation target then take off and laugh the dog now far behind you this time didn work because didn have time riding the hill leading house encountered liver and white springer spaniel relation the springer softail the springer spagthorpe close relation the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered with intent harm stuff deleted ryan cousinetc yamaha vision black pig inverness live ride kotrb ajs king rat work dod squid could afford the bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver canada live sure hope you got the cost replacement panel out the owner here the owner should seem reluctant stop the local spca preferably with your foot leg all swollen file viscious dog report would the trick glenn schmall astroid armory com not cross the oncoming lanes from hell beaming cafe near death that are californias highways you yeah got dod what mercury news
rec.motorcycles	women jackets was must daemon child article apr mnemosyne edu jhensley nyx edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc doesn have back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard wife looking for jacket and most the men styles she tried don fit too well they fit the shoulders and arms they too tight across the chest something like that anyone have any suggestions assuming that the pilot addition its handy storage facilities pretty decent fit there any company that makes reasonable line women motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone boulder denver know shop that bothers carrying any was very lucky found jacket liked that actually fits makes the pilot jackets mine very similar style made just leather san jose bought one the last two they ever made finding decent womens motorcycling gear not easy there lot stuff out there that fringed everywhere made fashion leather made fit men etc don know shop your area there are some women rider friendly places the san francisco san jose area but don recommend buying clothing mail order too hard tell fit bates custom makes leathers you might want call them they and get cost estimate for the type jacket your wife interested large manufacturers like bmw and sell women lines clothing decent quality but fit iffy while ago noemi and lisa sieverts were talking about starting business doing just this sort thing don know what they finally decided beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha excitable girl dod yamaha spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt can keep handle anything just this side deranged top
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks article nielsmm nanna imv aau nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen writes from nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen subject how act front traffic jerks date thu apr gmt the other day was raining cats and dogs therefor was going only the speed limit nothing more bike this guy his bmw was driving meters behind for meters and the next red light calmly put the bike its leg walked back this car rolled down the window and told him was total idiot and the reason why did the right thing works for avoid obscenities and try remain calm cool and collected and try something like you almost just killed and not moving until you apologize something more less benign like that haven been shot single time but don texas and only when there are plenty witnesses around steve steve moseley moseley washington edu microbiology phone university washington fax seattle
rec.motorcycles	kreme folks recently saw one post about kreme being bad idea but that was only one man opinion any one else have any experience with the stuff
rec.motorcycles	aerostitch piece request for opinions which better one piece aerostitch two piece aerostitch looking for more than well the more versatile but the better protection thanks advance nadine
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes your primary concern protecting the passenger the event crash have him her fitted for helmet that their size your primary concern complying with stupid helmet laws carry real big spare you can put big small head big helmet but not small one what should carry want comply with intelligent helmet laws the above comment way implies support for any helmet law nor should such support inferred promise promise steve steve moseley moseley washington edu microbiology phone university washington fax seattle
rec.motorcycles	max handling request article apr ntuvax ntu ntuvax ntu writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling depends what context you want commented handles great compared some bikes not good compared others what would you like compared yes put few miles one although never owned one randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day passenger helmets you don know for certain who gonna ride with you like say you meet them church meeting yeah that the ticket what are some guidelines should just pick another shoei size have backup helmet should maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger your primary concern protecting the passenger the event crash have him her fitted for helmet that their size your primary concern complying with stupid helmet laws carry real big spare you can put big small head big helmet but not small one well you can accomplish both goals actually you have definite physical type mind when you these cough church meetings your tastes tend smaller more petite cough churchgoers more likely that they will have smaller head and you can safely get medium small helmet this works for and traded spare large helmet with best friend who tends look more for women that are over and can usually fit into the medium size helmet previously had course you aren picky what size cough churchgoers you give helpful motorcycle rides then advice will hopefully cover any eventuality far legality concerned and spare handtowel the tankbag makes acceptable padding the passenger can see out the viewport rather than the padding above the viewport the cases extreme mismatch randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	ducati opinions wanted article jwc srgenprp com frankb sad com frank ball writes godfrey digiorgi ramarren apple com wrote the ducati model essentially reduced displacement which means weighs the same and the same size the with far less power produced specifically meet vehicle tax restriction the ducati model essentially reduced displacement which means weighs the same and the same size the with far less power and less brakes bzzzt the pounds lighter than the personally and recently witnessed stoppie with larger than average rider aboard said took two fingers that measely single front disk accomplish the task how much more brake you need such somewhat large and overweight for its motor will still handle magnificently just won very fast there are very few other flaws mention the limited steering lock the annoyance noted most testers and the mirrors aren perfect haven gone over rpm yet still break and haven had problem with the being too slow the limited steering lock can problem you aren prepared for the mirrors are very good imho someone forgot tell their designer about the whazza behind you she matta philosophy hewlett packard fax home valley house drive seca hmmmm don see your sig did miss something beth beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha excitable girl dod yamaha spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt can keep handle anything just this side deranged top
rec.motorcycles	choking ninja problem starr kuhub ukans edu writes need help with put supertrapp slip and had the carbs jetted match set filters that replaced the stock airbox ahh and just how were the carbs rejeted match the changes you made the bike stage three kit from dynojet now have huge flat spot the carburation about thousand rpm most any gear isn rejetting fun this especially frustrating the highway the bike likes cruise about mph which happens rpm sixth gear had tuned and this doesn seem help thinking about new carbs the injection system from gpz does anyone have any suggestions for fix besides restoring stock new carbs why would that fix you still have get the jetting right match what seems extremely overly lean condition you added more free flowing exhaust and then higher flowing filters chances are lean but this may not that the big fun with carb tuning very tricky your one and only choice unless you want spend many hours fiddling with the carbs take guy witha dyno and have tune the carbs for your current set otherwise you playing guessing game for long time erik astrup afm dod cbr cbr concours ninja this one goes eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	long lasting tires for small bike wsh amsun apma virginia edu will heyman writes rear tires small there are some fronts though get instead there anything that size any other recomendations call the tire companies yourself and tell them what you have they can make recomendations for you that your best bet check biker magazine cycle world etc for phone numbers possible there are other tires available though erik astrup afm dod cbr cbr concours ninja this one goes eleven nigel tufnel lead guitar spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	edu breaths article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan declerck writes article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes article apr rtsg mot com declrckd rtsg mot com dan declerck writes the difference opinion and difference motorcycling between the sport bike riders and the cruiser bike riders that difference only the minds certain closed minded individuals have had the very best motorcycling times with riders cruiser bikes don eddie yet ride anything but continuously this forum and the street you find quite difference between the opinions what motorcycling different individuals yes yes yes motorcycling slightly different each and every one this the nature people and one the beauties the sport cruiser bike riders have different view motorcycling than those sport bike riders what they like and dislike about motorcycling this not closed minded and what view exactly that every single rider cruiser bikes holds veiw that course sport bike rider could possibly hold please quantify your generalization for careful now you trying pigeonhole whole bunch people that plastic bodywork useless that torque and upright riding position better than slightly radically forward riding position combined with high rpm low torque motor cruiser motorcyclist chrome has some importance sport bike motorcyclists chrome has very little impact buying choice unless motivated solely price these are the criteria each rider uses select the vehicle choice ignore these well other criteria would insensitive other words one motorcycle can fufill the requirements that sport bike rider and cruiser rider may have sometimes hard for any motorcycle fufill person requirements you fishing for flames dave this difference opinion analogous the difference between sports car owners and luxury car owners this moot conversation dan declerck email declrckd rtsg mot com motorola cellular apd friends don let friends wear neon phone
rec.motorcycles	shipping bike article qkhrm agate berkeley edu manish uclink berkeley edu manish vij writes can someone recommend how ship motorcycle from san francisco seattle and how much might cost remember thread shipping someone saved the instructions bike prep please post again email thanks manish step join the ama american motorcycling association call ama join step after you become member they will ship your bike uncrated just about anywhere across the fruited plain for few hundred bucks have used this service and have been continually pleased they usually only take few days for the whole thing and you not have prepare the bike any way other than draining the gas not mention that about the normal shipping costs the time you crate bike and ship with another company you can pay around nick coburn dod ama cbr cbr coburnn spot colorado edu
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this article joz hln cup com chris steinbroner hesh cup com writes ranck ranck joesbar edu wrote new bmw owner was thinking about signing for the moa but right now beginning look suspiciously like throwing money down rathole going let current membership lapse when for renewal hesh case that not for another years appreciate any hints what will keep the organization business that long and preferably longer course and worth being part david karr karr cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	tracing license plates bdi cagers article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson wrote good advice course thanks hesh time back for zen refresher course imagine you are lily gently floating still darkened pool and some bdc volvo comes careening off the freeway and lands top you said pool you can win jim jim franklin jamesf apple com jim bob sons cagiva alazzurra signature remodling triumph slalom champ low price quality workman dod kotp ship call today for free estimit
rec.motorcycles	need help getting saddle bags hey pretty new the wonderful world motorcycles just bought used kaw csr from friend was just wondering what kind saddle bags could get for since know nothing about them are there bags for the gas tank how much would some cost and how much they hold thanks for your advice may new riding but love already jbourgui ucs indiana edu dod
rec.motorcycles	saddle bags and helmets for sale selling the following items pair hard saddle bags easy installation snap release feature with lock black brand krusures two oshi full face helmets take all for these are comming off bike that selling maybe you could use the whole thing bike and accessories yamaha vision call medi work home thanks medi montaseri montasmm ntmtv com ames mcdcup ntmtv montasmm
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped shoei off the seat bike while trying rock onto centerstand chipped the heck out the paint congraulations your helmet just passed the snell test cheerfully spent bottle testor model paint and repainted the scratches and chips for minutes well least looks now still may not save your head well before you dropped mike mike seales yamaha same inform group ltd dod level tower the terrace email homer inform wellington phone new zealand fax
rec.motorcycles	stolen cbr stolen from pasadena between and blue and white honda cbr california plate cbr serial number xpm engine number turn signals mirrors lights taped over for track riders session willow springs tomorrow guess miss help find baby kjg
rec.motorcycles	shipping bike can someone recommend how ship motorcycle from san francisco seattle and how much might cost recommend that you hop the back and cruise that really nice ride you choose your route with any care all shouldn cost more than about gas and maybe night motel bill mellon mellon ncd com uunet lupine mellon member the league for programming freedom find out how software patents may cost you your right program contact lpf uunet net
rec.motorcycles	max handling request bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes seriously handling probably good the big standards the early but not compareable whats state the art these days think you have little further back this opinion comes from riding and max find enjoyment riding max fast twisty road clayton brooks from the heart cbrooks uky edu pot the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this can resign bmw moa and get the remainder year membership refunded
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article oxz cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes shz mare att com keeper the tude writes anyone who true rider with the real riding attitude will offer wave weather they are harley honda some other bike inless they have serious case bike better than your and you too low acknowleged this you find the case with most the harley riders out here where however still give them wave and ride secure the knowlege that better persob than they are persob kinda like that most people wave return wave when harley other harley riders seldom wave back when duck squids don wave return waves ever even each other from what can tell michael manning mmanning icomsim com nextmail accepted flstf fatboy ducati
rec.motorcycles	tracing license plates bdi cagers article apr isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist wrote you could file complaint for dangerous operation motor vehicle and sign willing show court comes you can this really the other morning went lane change the freeway and looked mirror theer was car there but far enough behind looked again about seconds later car still same position not accelerating triple check with head turn and decide have plenty room accelerating travel about mile staying feet off teh bumper the car ahead and casual mirror check this guy right tail mean you couldn stick hair between tire his fender keep looking the mirror him slowly let off teh throttle stays there until had lost about mph and then comes around and cuts off big time follow him for about miles and finally get bored and turn back into work can file complaint about this and actually have the chance have something done how who where jim jim franklin jamesf apple com jim bob sons cagiva alazzurra signature remodling triumph slalom champ low price quality workman dod kotp ship call today for free estimit
rec.motorcycles	got bike was wanted advice purchase article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes article apr mit edu jburnside mit edu jamie burnside writes sure alot harder load trailer than the kdx was should road legal tomorrow ignoring the afforementioned concerns about the transmission and taking chances there should worries about the trans being reletively new reader quite impressed with all the usefull info available this newsgroup would ask how get own dod number but probably too busy riding does this count yes thought about cat dod faq mailx hahahha jburnside mit edu waiting press return later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs jack waters dod don fear the thief the night its the one that comes the afternoon when still asleep that worry about
rec.motorcycles	shipping bike article mellon apr pepper ncd com mellon ncd com ted lemon writes can someone recommend how ship motorcycle from san francisco seattle and how much might cost recommend that you hop the back and cruise that really nice ride you choose your route with any care all shouldn cost more than about gas and maybe night motel bill yes the coast over portland then really nice most the way and sure there even better ways watch the weather though got about good drenching possible the oregon coast range once howard berkey howard netcom com help
rec.motorcycles	stolen aarghhhh dam dam dam ritvax isc rit edu writes dam get back drom work today look bike before dam proceding side nearly shit new dry rider cover dam gone barely two weeks old and already gone god somebody stole trashed old honda red white blue cover off ltd residential palo alto couple weeks ago the cover had holes burnt around the exhaust etc etc figured was just kids but maybe not jet netcom com eric townsend dod hafta kill you this fun account work email goes jet nas nasa gov you got put down the ducky you wanna play saxophone skate unix die boyo
rec.motorcycles	changing sprocket ratios honda any honda gurus know can replace the the front sprocket honda with slightly larger one see this being preferable reducing the size the rear one just wanting ride more relaxed rpm clayton brooks from the heart cbrooks uky edu pot the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this boy little bike versus scuffling grow and that goes for the both you hope that the dump dempster campaign works however think that crook and suprised that has taken this long for anything done though obviously ain over yet the other hand not sure that want bed with any the wackos running throwing down rathole might more effective than sending the club you wouldn get anything but you don get anything now the magazine you say ever since the moa politburo installed don has lacked any sort panache may have had but what would know own and bike static moa
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes perhaps only some waterski bikes which one countersteers sea doo boat turns changing the angle the duct behind the propeller waterski bike looks like motorcycle but has ski where each wheel should its handlebars are connected through familiar looking steering head the front ski handles like motorcycle bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	must daemon child article bethdc jul netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes article apr research nec com behanna syl syl nec com chris behanna writes article bethdc netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes bzzzzt was until discovered touring bike has nifty little cache for things like coins lipstick the new duc doesn have back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard the only denizen who thinks that the natural look the best look the thought kissing that waxy shit smeared all over woman lips definite turn off does clear lipstick chapstick etc fit under the natural look the waxy shit category wear something lips keep them from drying out kissing dry cracked parched lips isn too fun either agreed but yes chapstick fits under the waxy shit category although noticed that stealing annette chapstick after she applied kept lips from cracking this past winter like they have all previous winters sigh the price must pay not that ever kissing beth noemi not tom has anything say about you won noemi speaks for herself does darling annette okay guess you can ready the barf bags now later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	shipping bike can someone recommend how ship motorcycle from san francisco seattle and how much might cost shipped from portland oregon daytona for this years bike week rode back the company used the federal you can reach them you either have ama member maybe just discount for ama not sure call ama join become ama member the shipping cost based the number miles cost about for portland orlando that was insurance all had ride the shipping dock and siphon the gas out think they can also pick the bike from any business the bike arrived time orlando all had was adjust the mirrors and add gas the bike was perfect shape gary
rec.motorcycles	bikes horses was insect impac cooper mprgate mpr greg cooper writes article qeftj sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com green article sda usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu mike sturde only exceptional ones like average ones like you can barely fart themselves fuck you very much mike gentlemen please greg obviously confused there aren many any gentlemen this newsgroup well maybe one two robert smits ladysmith lucas built weapons wars emd ham almanac would never start either
rec.motorcycles	recommendation for front tire article qfkqhinn rodan net smm rodan net steve mansfield writes yes front tire all but dead has minimal tread left time for new one any recommendations good tire front riding almost brand new back stick the front got laser the front gpz and has been fantastic tire best front tire ever had graeme weir dod fido unb university new brunswick fredericton canada damn the box jockeys full speed ahead live flame flame live gpz trek mtb
rec.motorcycles	long trips article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton mark harrison freddy ersys edmonton mark harrison writes new motorcycliing don even have bike yet and will going long trip from edmonton vancouver any tips bare essentials for the trip tools clothing emergency repairs without bike maybe you ought respond this how you gonna get there yer going cage what this got with also the market for used cycle any tips what look for don get burnt much appreciated mark maybe somebody oughta gang tool faq this guy hmmm andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen writes did the right thing denmark should have taken short sword and cleaved his car half since assume you didn have short sword you certainly have problems with your choice substitute action dan sorenson dod dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what read not what say don blame them usenet post exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes riding the hill leading house encountered liver and white springer spaniel relation the springer softail the springer spagthorpe close relation the spagthorpe viking must have missed the article the spagthorpe viking was that the one with the little illuminated dragon head the front fender style later copied indian and the round side covers accident deleted what worries about the accident this don think could have prevented except traveling much slower than was this not necessarily unreasonable suggestion for residential area but was riding around the speed limit you can forget this line reasoning when animal decides take you there nothing you can about has something with their genetics was putting along mere mph gravel road with few loose rocks just like bad concrete and lbs swinging beef jumped fence came out the ditch and rammed when saw her jump the fence went for the gas since she was about feet ahead but good forty the side damn cow literally chased down and nailed damage cow bent case guard and severely annoyed rider were the only casualties had shotgun still eating steak nope lbs cow can hit when actively evading forget much more manueverable dog just run them over dan sorenson dod dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what read not what say don blame them usenet post exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	flashing anyone behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes just before arriving toll booth switch the hazards thisto warn other motorists that will taking longer than the seconds make the transaction question this good bad thing this sounds like very good thing second that addition find hazards more often used than horn speeds below mph the interstates quite common mountains with trucks some states require flashers rural areas flashers let the guy behind you know there tractor with rather large implement behind the way use them whenever you need communicate that things will deviate from the norm chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name that painted green since the green triumph that friend owned was sold off her name now free for adoption how does the name thunderpickle grab you dan sorenson dod dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what read not what say don blame them usenet post exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	max handling request apr ntuvax ntu ntuvax ntu writes ican anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling the max goes strait line like shit shrough goose the corners rather ride honda dream dan sorenson dod dan exnet iastate edu viking iastate edu isu only censors what read not what say don blame them usenet post exotic distant machines meet exciting unusual people and flame them
rec.motorcycles	bikes horses was insect impacts article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes previous article egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher says lots things none which are quoted here article rgu usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes you think your average dirt biker can jump foot log how about log that suspended about off the ground for that matter how about log that suspended off the ground little imagination you don jump over those that where you lay the bike down and slide under jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	battery storage why not charge and store dry looks like going have put couple bikes storage for few months starting several months from now and already contemplating how they easy get going again possible have everything under control think besides the batteries know that buy battery tender for each one and leave them plugged the whole time the bikes are storage they fine but not sure that necessary never heard anyone discussing this idea maybe there some reason why isn great but maybe someone can tell would mistake fully charge the batteries drain the electrolyte into separate containers one for each battery seal the container close the batteries and leave them that way then would seem that when the bikes come out storage could put the electrolyte back the batteries and they should still fully charged what wrong with this related but different note for you bay area denizens wasn there someone who had bunch spare edta few months back who was there still any left thanks for any and all help robert
rec.motorcycles	should liability insurance required article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes sorry lost the attributions most areas drivers are required show proof financial responsibility which usually means insurance required how when they get pulled over most drivers bellyaching the net aside don get pulled over and checked the laws are enforceable only after the fact which case often somebody out lot money don you have any requirement for yearly plate stickers the ontario and manitoba for sure and the other provinces think you have show proof insurnace when you renew your plate get new sticker yes unfortunately there also the concept that the owner car not responsible for the actions any authorized user the car that one the biggest arguments against photo radar ticketing systems you also get pay all outstanding tickets they even have cross province agreements least between ontario and quebec that unpaid tickets the other province are record having date sticker bad trouble with that you then have recourse mis issued ticket clerical error computer follow you around the city chicago the informal motto which being the city the works issues dozens parking tickets each year people who have never set foot tire the city jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars saw this today newspaper fortune guzzler barred from bars barnstaple england reuter motorcyclist said have drunk away insurance payment less than years was banned wednesday from every pub england and wales david roberts had been awarded the cash compensation for losing leg motorcycle accident spent virtually all cider court barnstaple southwest england was told judge malcolm coterill banned roberts from all bars england and wales for months and put two years probation after started brawl pub bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	solar battery chargers any good seen solar battery boosters and they seem come without any guarantee the other hand heard that some people use them with success although have yet communicate directly with such person have you tried one what was your experience how did you use occasional charging long term leave for weeks etc robert kennedy robert kennedy office robert stanford edu home voice computer science dept stanford university home tty
rec.motorcycles	please gentlemen article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson writes article uupcb freddy ersys edmonton grant barkwell freddy ersys edmonton grant barkwell writes too certain knowledge simply posessing motorcycle can get you laid true very thankfully true gentlemen please all rather appropriate favor and excuse the comments about your sexual fortunes the net hardly tod think you misspoke they banking owning motorcycle get them laid then doubt they have sexual fortunes quite the reverse jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	happy easter article apr hasler ascom kevinh hasler ascom writes were trying sell bmw even tested bmw corniche think will remain british for the time being until get hard anyway rolls royce owned non british firm gods that would the end civilization know jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes loud pipes are biligerent exercise ego projection arguements following just the facts was able avoid accident revving engine and having stock harley pipes make enough noise draw someones attention instinctively revved engine before went for horn don know why but did and worked thats rather important not saying the louder the pipes the better harley loud and gets noticed the road for that reason personally not feel loud you well thats bad welcome america home the free land the atlanta braves you really want fine tuned machine like our federal government get involved and pass restrictions should generous enough that move like revving your engine will get you noticed sure there are horns but hand already the throttle should get into how many feet bike going mph goes seconds how long would take push horn button and aren you the guy that doesn even have bike tod johnson dod slow take geritol
rec.motorcycles	should liability insurance required article apr walter bellcore com fist iscp bellcore com richard pierson writes lets get this fault stuff straight lived when started rates went alot moved and rates went down alot the came and was different story you are sitting parking lot having lunch whatever and someone wacks you guess whose insurance pays for give yours only you have weeny insurance company unless some stupid law know that some jerk hits while parking lot insruance company doesn sue his his doesn immediately say yes his fault sure him myself and tell insurance company hell they raise rates andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc article qjmf sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article castle wbg festival geake writes ultra sticky labels printed with your favourite curse are good even our local hospitals use them instead wheel clamps putting one about size each window the cage apartment complex where used live tried this only they put the thing over the driver window they couldn miss friend damned near wrecked the way home one night her vision blocked the sticker suggested the manager the enormous liability they were assuming pulling that stunt she claimed was the driver who was fault for illegally parking the first place that would probably good for laugh two court before they found her liable for serious careful about putting stickers cages windows yeah make darn sure you cover all the glass the driver can reasonably expect able drive with the things the car jonathan quist jeq lachman com lachman technology incorporated dod kotpp kotcf gleep naperville there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy yay
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars bclarke galaxy gov writes saw this today newspaper fortune guzzler barred from bars barnstaple england reuter motorcyclist said have drunk away insurance payment less than years was banned wednesday from every pub england and wales david roberts had been awarded the cash compensation for losing leg motorcycle accident spent virtually all cider court barnstaple southwest england was told judge malcolm coterill banned roberts from all bars england and wales for months and put two years probation after started brawl pub there justice lost leg when was and had give motorcycling assuming david didn know that can done one legged too would want get swamped maybe even for ten years admit probably prefer homebrew pubbrew but still judge coterill some serious trouble can tell you that any chance you can get him and convince him his ruling was backward nick perhaps the lad deserved something for starting brawl bad form horribly bad form but for getting drunk that thought was ones natural born right and for spending his own money goodness who cares what one does with one own moolah even one spends recklessly ashamed humanity matt block koch dod honda
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this article apr cornell edu karr cornell edu david karr writes riveting bmwmoa election soap opera details deleted well there doesn seem any shortage alternative candidates obviously you not voting for vechorik but what about the others going buy bmw just cast vote for groucho ride safe cliff weston dod seca tem this bike excellent condition done all the work myself glen crash stone
rec.motorcycles	european insurance moved sweden and have take all the tests again written and road even though had valid license for some years course became resident and could drive license until became resident don know about italy different the eec
rec.motorcycles	camping question article bnr npet bnr nick pettefar writes back youth ahem the wiffy and moi purchased gadget which heated water from source was for car use but thought try worked apart from one slight problem had keep the revs above any lower and the motor would die from lack electron movement any colonists replaced the bolt the bottom the barrel with tap when wanted coffee could just rev the engine until boiling and pour out cup hot water used ethylene glycol antifreeze rather than methanol tastes sweeter roger collier sun com sun microsystems coventry england dod gsxr keeper the gsxr list
rec.motorcycles	aerostitch piece article apr vax cit cornell edu vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which better one piece aerostitch two piece aerostitch looking for more than well the more versatile but the better protection thanks advance nadine would scared trying fit the one piece when got two piece got the jacket and the pants just due manly man athletic build kind thing laughing please seriously not trim and the pants would have been way too big also don think the piece does provide better protection wrong swiftly ever gently correct the net pansies knowledge they like call themselves regards jack waters dod don fear the thief the night its the one that comes the afternoon when still asleep that worry about
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post leavitt umd edu bill writes mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes mjs also imho telling newbies about countersteering counter productive mjs cos just confuses them rode around quite happily for years mjs knowing nothing about countersteering cannot say ride any differently mjs now that know about interpret this mean that you representative every other motorcyclist the world mike rather presumptive you imho humble opinion leavitt umd edu bill writes leavitt the time learn countersteering techniques when you are first leavitt starting learn before you develop any bad habits rode for leavitt five years before taking first course msf erc and learning leavitt about how countersteer now eight years later and still leavitt have consciously tell myself don steer countersteer old leavitt habits die hard and bad habits even harder mjs sorry bill but this complete bollocks you learned how countersteer mjs the first time you rode the bike natural and intuitive sorry mike not going kick over the can you not countersteer over mph stone that one been kicked around enough for the sake argument concede that countersteering sake argument only mjs msf did not teach you how countersteer only told you what mjs you were already doing and there value that didn say there was value all said was that very confusing newbies there big difference knowing what happening and how make especially the extreme case emergency swerve and just letting the bike whatever does make itself turn once knew precisely what was happening and how make abruptly and command emergency avoidance abilities improved tenfold not mention big improvement normal cornering ability much more proficient knowing how countersteer the motorcycle rather than letting the motorcycle steer itself that when remember take cognitive command the bike rather than letting run itself through the corners whereupon return original comment better learn what happening right from the start and how take charge rather than developing the bad habit merely going along for the ride bill you are kidding yourself here firstly motorcycles not steer themselves only the rider can that secondly the adhesion the tyre the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance the motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve avoid obstacles and not the knowledge physics between the rider ears are you seriously suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you corner faster more competently than you could manage otherwise mike extremely gratified for you that you have such natural affinity and prowess for motorcycling that formal training was total waste time for you assuming your total training hasn come from simply from reading rec motorcycles however the motorcyclists discussed formal rider education with have regarded the experience overwhelmingly positive this regardless the amount experience they brought into the course ranging from minutes years formal training this country far aware does not include countersteering theory found out about countersteering about six years ago from physics lecturer who was also motorcyclist didn believe him first when said steered bike the right make turn left but went out and analysed closely what was doing and realized was right interesting bit knowledge and had lot fun since then telling others about who were first sceptical was but that all interesting bit knowledge and claim that essential for all bikers know that you can corner faster better result absurd formal training view absolutely essential you going able ride bike properly and safely but including countersteering theory newbie courses are confusing people unnecessarily right the time when there are far more important matters for them learn and that was original point mike
rec.motorcycles	drinking and riding norman hamer maven eskimo com wrote what general rule thumb for sobriety and cycling couple hours after you feel sober what should just work with drink tonight don ride until tomorrow generally find that after two three decent hits nitrous riding improves enormously drinking silly your breath smells costs lots money and the pigs can detect with their machines works for try nick the like wow far out biker dod concise errr like lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	where the oil going article dlvo skates gsfc nasa gov tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov tim seiss writes after both oil changes the oil level was the top mark the window the lower right side the motor but been noticing that the oil level seen the window gradually decreases over the miles always checking the window with the bike level ground and after has sat idle for awhile the oil has chance drain back into the pan the bike isn leaking oil any place and don see any smoke coming out the exhaust owner manual says the amount oil corresponding the high and low marks the oil level window approx quart looks like bike has been using about quarts miles the owner manual also gives figure for max oil consumption about mile question whether the degree oil consumption seeing bike normal have any other owners seen their oil level gradually and consistently down should take the bike for work asking local guys also get many data points can normal for the bmw bikes use little oil the first few thousand miles don know why had three new bikes and all three used bit oil when new max maybe quart first miles this soon quits and the time had miles them the oil consumption was about zero been told that the harder you run the bike within reason the sooner stops using any oil charlie smith charlie elektro cmhnet org kotdohl kotwitdodl kspi dod doh ama moa buckey beemers ohio bmw triumph columbus ohio usa
rec.motorcycles	internet discussion list article moe ksu ksu edu bparker uafhp uark edu brian parker writes hello world motorcyles lovers soon lovers have started discussion list the internet for people interested talking bikes discuss anything and everything you are interested joining drop line since really isn list what you have post you send and distribute everyone mon join and enjoy huh did this guy just invent wreck motorcycles curious minds want know charlie smith charlie elektro cmhnet org kotdohl kotwitdodl kspi dod doh ama moa buckey beemers ohio bmw triumph columbus ohio usa
rec.motorcycles	internet discussion list article moe ksu ksu edu bparker uafhp uark edu brian parker writes hello world motorcyles lovers soon lovers have started discussion list the internet for people interested talking bikes discuss anything and everything you are interested joining drop line since really isn list what you have post you send and distribute everyone mon join and enjoy second thought maybe didn invent wreck moto trying round about way figure out the dod theme song one faq coming right charlie smith dod doh kspt there nothing quite like the pitter patter little feet followed the words daddy why locked outside
rec.motorcycles	bikes and contacts article apr news columbia edu scs cunixb columbia edu sebastian sears writes article apr linus mitre org cookson mbunix mitre org cookson writes article ckp news cso uiuc edu dcl nxt cso uiuc edu student writes have quick question recently got bike and drive often but one problem the wind messing with contacts have gas permeable how about full face helmet with the face sheild down works for actually this doesn always work for either have wind that blows around inside some and dry eyes out get dust them eventually unless also wearing sunglasses inside helmet too usually wear sunglasses inside full face helmet keep dirt wind out contacts mumble mumble mumble charlie smith dod doh kspt
rec.motorcycles	looking for maintenance manual for honda article apr wam umd edu buffalo wam umd edu duncan sterling writes anyone thinks that touring pushing the envelope try twin local honda dealer says that honda dream was commonly referred serious touring bike when first came out maybe there something the water around here what the problem here back rode puch from paris barcelona and back that was two stroke and back then was representative the size bikes the road was considered big bike and the superbikes the day were anything bigger was real rare charlie smith dod doh kspt nothing the water mais voulez vous peu melange
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorcycles pisses off evelyn wells the apr cst wibbled once again this morning pulled the designated motorcycle parking area only find cage pulled behind the bikes people don double park cars why they motorcycles never mind that rhetorical question know why they what want know what can about carry pieces paper that say don park your car the motorcycle area call the cops wait until they emerge from the building and berate them until they beg forgiveness does anyone else have this problem and what you about evie don know you have local branch where you are but the preferred method over here phone the ira and tell them about the car and that belongs who northern ireland government committee hour later and the car longer problem best not park too close though nick the vengeful biker dod concise oxford plastic lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	bikes horses was insect impacts jonathan quist the thu apr gmt wibbled article txd able mkt com com txd esd com com tom dietrich writes previous article egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher says lots things none which are quoted here article rgu usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes you think your average dirt biker can jump foot log how about log that suspended about off the ground for that matter how about log that suspended off the ground little imagination you don jump over those that where you lay the bike down and slide under jonathan quist the nice thing about horses though that they break down the middle nowhere you can eat them fuel bit cheaper too nick the biker dod concise oxford giddy lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	extraordinary footpeg engineering article apr csdvax csd unsw edu exb csdvax csd unsw edu writes okay dod ers here goddamn mystery for the stud the side the bike that clunked when turned was absent fairly sure was there before the event fact the thread the hole the footpeg was perfectly intact with evidence something having been forcefully ripped out only moments previously okay all you engineering types how the you explain this how can you rip tightly fitting steel thread out threaded hole alloy without damaging the thread the hole you can knock threaded stud out from its hole without destroying the threads also part the stud would still the hole therefore the stud was not the hole before you touched something down that side the bike doom
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes article zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes all that argue about gyroscopes etc throughly understand the technique countersteering including all the ones who think that they countersteer all the way through corner the underlying physics are different matter and need not taught beginners agreed countersteering the technique should taught for only with understanding the technique can one develop maximally effective emergency avoidance manuvers this really the only thing disagree maybe should agree disagree still think that telling newbies steer left turn the right unnecessarily confusing when they anyway they just get the bike and ride the damn thing know exactly what happening those other gits that haven clue too understanding the physics traction fine but cannot see how detailed theory like that has any place motorcyle training course all you need know that maximum traction obtained with the tyre just beginning slide against the road then are violent disagreement while what you state true insufficient form traction management policy available traction increases with applied normal force traction available the front wheel increases weight shifts under braking forces and correspondingly decreases the rear thus technique applying both brakes and easing off the rear and increasing pressure the front can best learned with understanding weight shift and available traction jeez when you started talking about traction management policies thought you were making some weird reference looking after railway locomotives the official line here though have doubts about that the front brake applied first followed the rear brake the idea being that you avoid locking the rear after weight transfer takes place practice suspect most people what you describe saying brake until the tire just begins slide next useless advice newbie has out and slide the tire find out where that also gives him zero information from which develop braking technique that changes the braking and corresponding weight shift develop you don slide the tyre you have way knowing whether you achieved maximum braking not not suggesting that you should always aim brake hard you possibly can but you want find the limits the machine you have beyond them any case for maximum braking suggested you aim keep both wheels just the point sliding then you doing exactly you suggest
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes what buying bike going insurance turn about month parents have been taking care insurance till now and need comprehensive list costs that buying motorcycle going insure live washington that makes difference depends the bike once you found bike you interested call some insurance companies for rates some bikes are much cheaper insure than you might think only costs year louis any recommendations what should buy where should look for for first bike recommend less and bike short enough get both feet the ground when you stop the one piece advice everyone will give you take motorcycle safety foundation rider course see dealer for details some states completion such course can give you break insurance will also teach you ride properly from the beginning you won learn any bad habits good luck riding motorcycle the most fun you can have naked otherwise alan
rec.motorcycles	insurance discount erik asphaug asphaug lpl arizona edu wrote unless some insurance agent offers multi vehicle discount they this all the time for cars assuming that you only capable progressive offers multi vehicle discounts good prices too imho tony tony jones ant cray com uunet cray ant cmcs codegeneration group software division cray research inc lone oak drive eagan
rec.motorcycles	first bike article forqfa iuzmatnmz andrew cmu edu james leo belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu writes serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle and put bluntly sucks really would like some advice what would for second thought this was posting green bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars that okay perfectly welcome come scotland you know
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles gregory humphreys gregh niagara dcrt nih gov wrote greg very new motorcycles haven even bought one yet was the same position about you how you learn you never ridden took class put group called the motorcycle safety foundation california they might have something similar washington try calling motorcycle dealer your area and asking good first start how ride motorcycle correctly
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how act front traffic jerks nmm the other day was raining cats and dogs therefor was going only nmm the speed limit nothing more bike this guy his bmw was nmm driving meters behind for meters and the next red light nmm calmly put the bike its leg walked back this car rolled down the nmm window and told him was total idiot and the reason why nmm did the right thing imho you did the wrong thing you could have been shot could have run over your bike just beat the shit out you consider that the person foolish enough drive like fool and may very well act like one too just get the heck away from the idiot the driver does something clearly illegal you can file citizens arrest and drag that person into court hassle for you but major hassle for the perp john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com writes very glad know that none you judgemental little shits has hey pal who you calling litte tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see just hops into the air figure john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau wrote nmm from nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how act front traffic jerks nmm the other day was raining cats and dogs therefor was going only nmm the speed limit nothing more bike this guy his bmw was nmm driving meters behind for meters and the next red light nmm calmly put the bike its leg walked back this car rolled down the nmm window and told him was total idiot and the reason why nmm did the right thing imho you did the wrong thing you could have been shot could have run over your bike just beat the shit out you consider that the person foolish enough drive like fool and may very well act like one too just get the heck away from the idiot the driver does something clearly illegal you can file citizens arrest and drag that person into court hassle for you but major hassle for the perp john stafford minnesota state university winona you can make citizens arrest anything but felony all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	paris dakar bmw touring mike johnson mentorg com mentor graphics boeckman software support corporation wilsonville framework products division
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	first bike and wheelies previous article jbc andrew cmu edu james leo belliveau says anyone serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle and put bluntly sucks really would like some advice what would good starter bike for know one thing however need make first bike good one because buying second any time soon out the question specifically interested racing bikes cbr gsx know that this may sound kind crazy considering that never had bike before but responsible fast learner and love please give any advice that you think would help search including places look even specific bikes that you want sell thanks the answer obvious dod darkman the significant problems face cannot solved the same level thinking were when created them albert einstein the eternal champion
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive not possible countersteer either for the humor impared pphhhhhtttttt concours sophisticated lady tom dietrich sportster sport for sale dod spike the garage rat ama queued for fssnoc two jousts and gather big fun kspt bell cool rule but sometimes mail txd able mkt com com lewis disclaimer com takes responsibility for opinions preceding this
rec.motorcycles	honda cbr for sale for sale honda cbr hurricane bought the bike the end last summer and although love the bills are forcing part with the bike has little more than miles and runs very strong nead tune and possibly break pads but the rubber good also tossing tankbag and kiwi helmet asking best offer add hits newspaper and micronews interested parties can call during the day and the evenings later than
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes nmm from nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how act front traffic jerks found that effective strategy flash brake light pumping the pedal you will obviously need bit free play your brake pedal this seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that flashing red light directly front him her may mean that something wrong see one thing wrong with your strategy the boy who cried wolf jorg klinger gsxr you only new who arch eng services lost horizons think umanitoba man the embalmer anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	with flames out the exhaust article apr research nec com chris behanna behanna syl nec com writes article apr bnr dave dal farra gpz bnr writes reminds great editorial bruce reeve couple months ago cycle canada was pissed off with cops pulling over speeders dangerous spots and often blind corners that one day decided get revenge cruising factory loaner zzr test bike noticed cop had pulled over motorist off ramp with almost shoulder being bright lad hit his bike kill switch just before passing the cop who happened bending towards the offending motorist there exposing his glutes the passing world with his ignition system now dead pumped his throtle two three times fill his exhaust canister with volatile raw fuel all took was stab the kill switch light the ignition and send flame sargeant swell direction wonder any cycle cops read cycle canada although agree with the spirit the action hope that the rider ponied the takes replace the exhaust system just destroyed the owner manual explicitly warns against such behavior for exactly that reason you can destroy your muflers that way later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs fat chance the offending rider was moto journalist those guys can sell hundreds bikes with one stroke the pen and such get away with murder when comes test bikes one way the other was probably worth the early expiration one mufler see bone head get his butt baked dave true they say that money talks when mine spoke said buy drink
rec.motorcycles	how buy first bike etc there have been lot posts lately about wanna buy first bike gsxr cbr fzr good bike learn etc think going put together faq buying new bike ravi used post one all the time bruce clarke environment mail bclarke galaxy gov
rec.motorcycles	stuff for sale gone thanks all who responded the three items electric vest aerostitch suit and scarf are all spoken for gary gary wasserman completely irrational attraction bmw bikes interleaf inc prospect place hillside ave waltham grw ileaf com fax dod
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes only have about work with that would have cover everything bike helmet anything else that too ignorant know need buy the following numbers are approximate and will doubt get flamed helmet new but cheap jacket used very cheap gloves nothing special motorcycle safety foundation riding course must that leaves you between and depending the accuracy numbers buy used bike get registered get insured and get running properly say you cutting close perhaps your parents are reasonable and you indicated your wish learn ride safely you could get them pick the cost the msf course and some the safety gear early holiday presents whatever those are one time well long term anyway investments and you could spend your money the actual bike insurance registration and maintenance curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars article qtvl dartvax dartmouth edu russell hughes dartmouth edu knicker twister writes article apr bnr npet bnr nick pettefar writes with regards the pub brawl might have history such things just because was biker doesn make him out reasonable person even the dod might object him joining who knows had history such things why was not mentioned the article and why did they present the irrelevant detail where got his drinking money from can say exactly who fault here but from where sit looks like seeing the results either the law going way out hand shoddy journalism the law wants attach strings how you spend settlement they should put the money trust they don would assume perfectly legitimate drink away though wouldn spend that way myself david karr karr cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars david karr the tue apr gmt wibbled article qtvl dartvax dartmouth edu russell hughes dartmouth edu knicker twister writes article apr bnr npet bnr nick pettefar writes with regards the pub brawl might have history such things just because was biker doesn make him out reasonable person even the dod might object him joining who knows had history such things why was not mentioned the article and why did they present the irrelevant detail where got his drinking money from can say exactly who fault here but from where sit looks like seeing the results either the law going way out hand shoddy journalism the law wants attach strings how you spend settlement they should put the money trust they don would assume perfectly legitimate drink away though wouldn spend that way myself david karr karr cornell edu heard about this from newspaper article journalists and editors always pick out the most interesting and sensational facts for our delectation the editor the sun once said never let the facts get the way good story you must have noticed how motorcyclists get treated the press they thrive hysteria ignorance sensationalism and one upmanship unfortunately there not enough salt keep taking pinch nick the cynical old biker dod concise oxford leaky new gearbox lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh ask not for whom the bell tolls tolls for you time get
rec.motorcycles	that where the oil went tim intrepid gsfc nasa gov tim seiss writes just wanted say thanks everyone who sent mail posted reply question the oil consumption what did you decide joe senner joe rider cactus org austin area ride mailing list ride rider cactus org texas splatterfest mailing list fest rider cactus org
rec.motorcycles	the best times the worst times note this not about the times few times year funny thing happens the bike engine runs perfectly completely smooth not that runs poorly normally but these days exceptional theory that the air density and moisture content the air are such that get complete combustion needless say puts great mood the mood lasted for about miles heading north the freeway about mile two south the throttle stopped responding and was between lanes nothing but make way over lanes the shoulder initially gliding then pushing least traffic was heavy enough that cars did not mind stopping for turned out screw unscrewed inside mikuni carb keep hearing that one should keep all the screws tight bike but never thought that had that the screws inside carb least was roadside fixable and was way hardly any time death life way telling you you been fired geis paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications vfr etc vidar olaf solberg vidaros dhhalden wrote can somebody tell what all the letter spesifications motorcycle models really mean example what means the the and the honda cbr the and suzuki glp honda designates engine street bike for for twin street bike with parallel twin inline cylinder engine used mean race bike but now also used mean sport bike was for the old steet scramblers street bikes with high pipes was custom street bike dirt only two strokes dual purpose bike was dirt only four stroke but now can dual purpose bike has suffix touring bike frank ball frankb sad com work hewlett packard fax home valley house drive seca rohnert park wug law ama dod the nra
rec.motorcycles	hell mets article apr freenet carleton freenet carleton lloyd carr writes previous article maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer says don end replacing the real near future would better wear totally nondamaged face dot rated cheapie which doesn fit well keep out the wind well wearing the shoei which lot more comfortable keeps the wind out better quieter but might have some minor damage wear the even after few drops paint chips far better than helmet poorly fitting one had many scratches bangs which have been repaired plus still confident the protection the helmet will continue give only when you actually see depressions actual cracks using magnifying glass should you consider replacement this not good advice couple years was involved low speed getoff which landed back the pavement head helmeted hit the pavement with clunk leaving couple dings and chips the paint the point impact but other visible damage called the helmet manufacturer and inquired about damage they said that the way fiberglass shell works first give then delaminate then crack this the way fiberglass serves spread the force the impact over wider area after the fiberglass has done its thing the crushable foam liner takes care absorbing hopefully the remaining impact force they told that the second stage fiberglass functionality delamination the glass resin layers can occur with visible signs either inside outside the helmet they suggested that send them the helmet and they would inspect including raying did they sent back the helmet with letter stating that that they could find damage that would compromise the ability the helmet provide maximum protection suspect that this letter would eliminate their being able claim prior damage the helmet the event were sue them the bottom line though that appears that helmets integrity can compromised with visible signs the only way know for sure send back and have inspected note that some helmet manufacturers provide inspections services and some not another point consider when purchasing lid ken franklin they say there heaven for people who wait ama and some say better but say ain gwrra rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints dod the sinners are lots more fun know only the good die young
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article apr megatek com randy megatek com randy davis writes article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for thought was dui for driving under influence here what does stand for driving while intoxicated actually beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated least does the states lived this was changed here louisiana when girl went court and won her case claiming stoned pot not intoxicated liquor one can imparied without necessarily being impaired liquor drugs not enough sleep being total moron all can impair someone etc surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor lets just say dui here now dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	header paint seems the miles trailering the rain has rusted bike headers the metal underneath solid but need sand off the rust coating and repaint the pipes black any recommendations for paint and application said paint thanks axel
rec.motorcycles	rgv and posing article dsd com bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner writes article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes article spam maths adelaide edu amydlak spam maths adelaide edu adam mydlak writes squid deleted helment laws vary from state state state louisiana the law personaly would not feet bike without one law law helment will save your life feet but draw the line see your and raise you doug rinckes drinckes tssc wlg nec new zealand tssc ltd bmw bmw indian
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications vfr etc can somebody tell what all the letter spesifications motorcycle models really mean example what means the the and the honda cbr the and suzuki glp wanna distribute this our club magazine want lists all types but already knows about harley thanks advance vidar vidar solberg norway rock hard ride free are the proud the few and the true metallibashers
rec.motorcycles	honda for sale wanted let people know that this motorcycle has been sold thanks for your inquiries dave schultz
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack several years ago while driving cage dog darted out quiet intersection right front but there was enough distance between didn have slow down however dog suddenly appeared and collided with right front bumper and the force the impact was enough kill that scottish terrier apparently was following the dog henceforth dog decides cross the street keep eye out for dog many dogs like travel pairs packs yet experience dog chasing black which has pretty loud oem horn not good fiamms but good enuff but the bike large and heavy enough run right over one the smaller nippers while the larger ones would have trouble getting leg between the saddlebags and engine guards def feel more vulnerable trump that easier leg chewing target for those mongrels there persistent dog running after bikers despite complaints the owner wouldn adverse running over with truck dogs life isn worth much imho compared child riding bike who gets knocked the ground said dog and dies from head injury any dog the neighborhood that vicious public menace running about unleashed fair game road kill candidate graeme harrison gharriso hpcc corp com dod
rec.motorcycles	help which bikes are short help got friend shopping for her first motorcycle this great unfortunately she needs most seat this not great far the only thing found was old and unhappy looking time tap the collective memory all the denizens out there anybody know models old models and used bikes are not problem with lower seat and since she has make this difficult she would prefer not end with cruiser there bonus points for listing tiny standards seem remember thread with point similar this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list thanks gregory bean dod bean ncar ucar edu fact everything got that big reverb sound
rec.motorcycles	with flames out the exhaust from article quw btq cso uiuc edu mikeh cso uiuc edu mike hollyman have custom that just replaced the cylinder head gasket now when put back together again wouldn idle all was only running cylinders and would backfire and spit flames out the exhaust the right side the exhaust mac bought new plugs today and runs very rough and still won idle quite sure the fine tune knobs the carbs are messed checked the timing was fine advanced little and that didn help assume the carbs need synched can buy kit and this myself what kit the best for the price any other suggestions dont think its the carbs that are out would suspect that the cam timing out you say that you had the head off that would make sense ian just emu worth ian deeley whatever you will school engineering insignificant but its very university sussex ooo important that you england anon
rec.motorcycles	extraordinary footpeg engineering previous article exb csdvax csd unsw edu says okay dod ers here goddamn mystery for today was turning degree corner just like any other day but there was slight difference rough spot right path caused the suspension compress mid corner and some part the bike hit the ground with very tangible thunk pulled over first opportunity sus out the damage some deleted barry manor dod confused accidental peg scraper check the bottom your pipes barry suspect that what may have hit did the same few years past thought was the peg but found the bottom pipe has made contact showed good sized dent scratch believe you feel the suddent change your foot the peg had bumped for the piece missing contribute that vibration loss yep the same thing happened old honda twinstar mike maser dod squid rating pinetree sidney can hopalonga twinfart yuka yuka excess wish list tridump mucho guzler burley home thumpison bimotamoeba work mmaser sirius uvic joke the month what did the gay say the university victoria indian chief news rec motorcycles answer can bum couple bucks
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes what does dwi stand for thought was dui for driving under influence here what does stand for driving while intoxicated actually beleive dwi normally means driving while impaired rather than intoxicated least does the states lived this was changed here louisiana when girl went court and won her case claiming stoned pot not intoxicated liquor one can imparied without necessarily being impaired liquor drugs not enough sleep being total moron all can impair someone etc surprised this got her off the hook perhaps dwi lousiana confined liquor randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes folks assembling info for film criticism class final project essentially need any all movies that use motos any substantial capacity fallen angles the marlboro man raising arizona etc any help you fellow ers could give would much preciated btw summary bike plot helpful but not necessary thanx erc eric sundheim csundh ursa calvin edu grandrapids usa hondo vfr dod
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons nmm from nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen nmm subject how act front traffic jerks nmm the other day was raining cats and dogs therefor was going only nmm the speed limit nothing more bike this guy his bmw was nmm driving meters behind for meters and the next red light nmm calmly put the bike its leg walked back this car rolled down the nmm window and told him was total idiot and the reason why nmm did the right thing nmm yours truly nmm niels mikkel well sounds great when have real bdi cager tailgating found that effective strategy flash brake light pumping the pedal you will obviously need bit free play your brake pedal this seems that even the most brain dead idiot can usually discern that flashing red light directly front him her may mean that something wrong the two problems see with your strategy that the red light may change before you can get anything meaningful out your mouth the occupant may take exception your opinions and demonstrate such physically you your now parked bike admittedly the latter slim chance but would enough give pause slmr sometimes you get the windshield sometimes the bug computer dynamics bbs hst vancouver canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles hello everyone new motorcycles flames please don have bike yet need few pieces information only have about work with that would have cover everything bike helmet anything else that too ignorant know need buy what buying bike going insurance turn about month parents have been taking care insurance till now and need comprehensive list costs that buying motorcycle going insure live washington that makes difference any recommendations what should buy where should look for imagine every other state not state not bitter you take the written test first and then get learners permit however wondering how one goes about learning ride the bike proficiently enough get liscence and not kill oneself don know anyone with bike who could teach and the most advice heard either you live near field you have friend with pickup truck the answers both which are just ride around neighborhood and hope for the best kind live residential area but not suburbs still the big city and about mile from downtown that doesn seem too viable any stories how you all learned thanks for any replies advance greg humphreys meant that damn autoindent greg humphreys this must thursday never national institutes health could get the hang thursdays gregh alw nih gov arthur dent
rec.motorcycles	happy easter article vtserf edu ranck joesbar edu ranck writes hey wasn picking morgan they use old technology that all said there nothing wrong with using old technology people still use shovels dig holes well you really can dig hole with stock shovel you least need some performance mods like stroking and cams besides real bad the rear tire dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	happy easter article apr isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist writes article tekgen tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes article apr isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist writes rolls royce owned non british firm gods that would the end civilization know why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover only owned honda yes minor blasphemy that companies would the likes jaguar sob lotus outright sacrilege for have non british ownership fundamental thing think there legal clause the name regardless who owns must british company owner can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom
rec.motorcycles	dod books anyone around here read this yet does anita have number title software measurement for dod systems recommendations for initial core measures anita carleton subject software engineering computer programming management author carleton anita author carnegie mellon university software engineering institute publ pittsburgh carnegie mellon university software engineering institute tony these opinions are nothing but own and may not even want them antonio salerno the heart the liver the spleen the pancreas all antonio salerno att com these miraculous organs work total darkness david letterman
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle detailing tip article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes note users plexi fairings the light hits some these just right they become giant magnifing glass and will melt hole your guage pod dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc apartment complex where used live tried this only they put the thing over the driver window they couldn miss friend damned near wrecked the way home one night her vision blocked the sticker suggested the manager the enormous liability they were assuming pulling that stunt she claimed was the driver who was fault for illegally parking the first place that would probably good for laugh two court before they found her liable for serious seems that the driver was driving the vehicle visually impaired isn that like not scraping ice and snow off your windshield and such say that another thing that bugs why don people scrape their damn windows seen people driving cars with barely the driver half the windshield cleared nothing else cleared this seems pretty stupid and isn there something probably varies state state that says certain percentage the glass must clear well brad thone systems consultant systems service enterprises louis wuvmd wustl edu wuvmd bitnet
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars article apr reed edu mblock reed edu matt block writes assuming david didn know that can done one legged too would new orleans there was company making motorcycles for wheelchair bound people the rig consists flat bed sidecar rig that the wheelchair can clamped the car has set hand controls mounted conventional handlebars looks wierd hell see this legless guy driving the rig from the car while his girlfriend sits the bike passenger dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article mjs zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes formal training view absolutely essential you going able ride bike properly and safely but including countersteering theory newbie courses are confusing people unnecessarily right the time when there are far more important matters for them learn and that was original point mike while agree with you that formal training essential for safe riding disagree strongly with your original point the point formal training must prepare riders for the road preparedness opinion know much possible exclude some aspects riding bike course wrong imho now countersteering particular countersteering something that must trained common reaction among new bikers bicycle riders emergency situation steer the motorcycle like bicycle know this makes the motorcycle the direction opposite what was intended needless say this dangerous have specific example rider left turn the rider thinks she close the right shoulder the road and tries steer the motorcycle the left pulling the left handle and pushing the right handle the motorcycle straightens and goes off the road worse scenario the same rider same turn the middle the turn the rider sees truck coming towards him her the panicking rider tries steer the motorcycle away from the truck and crashes right into the main function riding course teach how avoid emergency situations and what one thus the knowledge and training countersteering imho must any riding course staal idt unit
rec.motorcycles	help which bikes are short rec motorcycles bean cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help got friend shopping for her first motorcycle this great unfortunately she needs most seat this not great far the only thing found was old and unhappy looking had and thought was the best bike ever ridden and mind you ridden many bikes seem remember thread with point similar this passing through several months ago did anybody keep that list you must mistaken thread this group has ever had point seriously there are many short bikes out there what style bike and how much money does she have and rides her hawk with ease most cruisers are low slung ysr are real short too rich sturges nswc carderock division speak for one else and listen the same
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points cjackson curtis jackson cjackson adobe com writes cjackson very glad know that none you judgemental little shits has cjackson ridden driven when too tired sleepy hungover angry distracted cjackson the last years why you had then you might just guilty some not judgmental little shits don drive ride when impaired stopped doing that sort thing when good friend mine got killed drunk driver who failed stop for red and drove through the side her volvo his caddy then again suspect most the responsible adults the net don bother posting flame wars rec moto cjackson there justification for taking away individuals freedom cjackson the guise public safety thomas jefferson also owned slaves kept some forced concubines and had enough resources what wanted without fear reprisal then again also smoked dope jet netcom com eric townsend dod hafta kill you this fun account work email goes jet nas nasa gov you got put down the ducky you wanna play saxophone skate unix die boyo
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry virago
rec.motorcycles	type spesifications vfr etc article srgenprp com frankb sad com frank ball writes honda designates engine street bike for for twin how about honda hawk twin but not called curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	more moa stuff like the from what seen years moa member most the folks the are also the moa guess called covering all the bases get some idea what really happening how else does one think the gets all the juicey news about what happen inside the moa nihilism isn for everyone not that really matters craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador and finally sent bucks into the too real bmw have two wheels politically correct statement dod
rec.motorcycles	electricty sigha trying figure out way put halogen beam are there any easy ways this slip bulb replacement was told guy the bike shop that not damn near bright enough incandescent beam might caused perma low battery went and picked this cheapo motorcycle battery and charging system tester hook the battery got lights very good charge start the engine test the charging system and doesn even register supposed light lights everything but stays down the same point just the battery question here indeed charging system just plain messed how the heck the battery staying fully charged think would darned near dead from supporting lights etc the have problem with their charging system are they just generally slower charging than what normal for bigger bikes there easy fix for this happy noise put miles bike this weekend finally got myass endorsement which really good because cage just quit running worth damn and won have money repair until the first and the weatherman says bright and sunny all week chance rain friday big grin bugs teeth
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other one those morning just getting the coffee thoughts waving other bikers makes more sense than just hey how going nice meet you the road have good ride you watching for other bikes wave means your attention the road where should and you more likely see cages keeps you the habit watching really carefully for bikes when you cage this good thing
rec.motorcycles	happy easter kevinh the tue apr gmt wibbled article apr isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist writes article tekgen tek com davet interceptor cds tek com dave tharp cds writes article apr isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist writes rolls royce owned non british firm gods that would the end civilization know why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover only owned honda yes minor blasphemy that companies would the likes jaguar sob lotus outright sacrilege for have non british ownership fundamental thing think there legal clause the name regardless who owns must british company owner can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom don believe that have anything with seperate company from the aero engine company think that the government own stake unfortunately they owned stake jaguar too until they decided make quick buck and sold ford bastards this definitely the ultimate arthur daley government nick the cynical biker dod concise oxford leaky gearbox lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	the best times the worst times apr ttinews tti com paulb harley tti com paul blumstein writes note this not about the times turned out screw unscrewed inside mikuni carb keep hearing that one should keep all the screws tight bike but never thought that had that the screws inside carb least was roadside fixable and was way hardly any time you better check all the screws that carb before you suck one into jug and munge piston valve seen happen before matthew
rec.motorcycles	cobra locks was posting alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing motorcycle got several responses referring the cobra lock described below has anyone come across store carrying this lock the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this thanks for any info steve article innraj shelley washington edu basiji stein washington edu david basiji writes incidentally the best lock found for bikes the cobra lock cable which shrouded articulated hardened steel sleeve the lock itself cylindrical and the locking pawl engages the joints the articulation points the chain can adjusted like handcuffs you can get any leverage the lock break open and the cylinder well protected wouldn want cut one these without torch and vice and heavy duty cutting wheel steve bunis sun microsystems dod itasca ama
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff was just wondering there were any law officers that read this have several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles and cops and please don say get vehicle code your local station obvious things like that questions would not found those places nor answered face face with real live the flesh cop your brother had friend who had cousin whos father was cop etc don bother writing thanks
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes folks assembling info for film criticism class final project essentially need any all movies that use motos any substantial capacity fallen angles the marlboro man raising arizona etc any help you fellow ers could give would much preciated btw summary bike plot helpful but not necessary easy rider harleys drugs rednecks new orleans mad max violence dod wanna time rider honda thumper time travel any sunday documentary about dirtbike racers great the great escape steve mcqueen nazis rebel without cause james dean future dod ers think the last two are right they are old movies haven seen years dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	any xxxx mean police officers read this stuff article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com laferriere writes was just wondering there were any law officers that read this have several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles and cops and please don say get vehicle code your local station obvious things like that questions would not found those places nor answered face face with real live the flesh cop your brother had friend who had cousin whos father was cop etc don bother writing thanks just gotta ask what are these questions you want ask active cop working your dod qualfications dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	route suggestions article qmm dinnnlg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis chicago writes after this point the route presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back chicago suggestions you make into new york state the palisades interstate parkway pleasant ride beautiful scenery good road surface minimal traffic you may also want take sidetrip along seven lakes drive just off the parkway for the same reasons plus the road sweeps and down along the hills with sweeping turns under old forest canopy mitch corrado bell communications research dec mdc panther tnds bellcore com wreck mad vax the code warrior
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes hello everyone new motorcycles flames please don have bike yet need few pieces information any stories how you all learned tell you story example what not early took some riding lessons from college roommate his old honda had taken the msf beginner course actually learned some what needed know ride proceeded buy beat honda for and helmet and rode around wearing this and cotton windbreaker then decided invest full face helmet first smart move sometime around then also passed road test may got caught rainstorm way home from mile trip entering the town where lived rather urban suburb had stop suddenly for red light that noticed too late skidded the rear tire out and was ejected face upward into the oncoming lane traffic fortunately for the oncoming traffic was also stopped for the same red light otherwise might have slid under car and been killed now this anecdotal evidence sure but later took the experienced rider course from the msf and saw that earlier training could have helped greatly your case the need even greater since you have nobody help you practice even the most basic stuff did advice take the msf beginner course first thing wouldn even buy bike until you taken the course unless you happen pick real good deal and can store someplace until you ready use only have about work with that would have cover everything bike helmet anything else that too ignorant know need buy while you waiting take the course might take few weeks recall there were always waiting lists boston could you save some more money start out right say for riding gear plus the cost bike plus maybe guess mechanic make sure the machine safe assuming you economize buying some old beat machine from private individual plus insurance plus registration and licensing fees plus the course you looking maybe not including the bike itself and reserve for ongoing maintenance what buying bike going insurance turn about month parents have been taking care insurance till now and need comprehensive list costs that buying motorcycle going insure live washington that makes difference pay about insurance now upstate but was closer boston more urban for decent insurance including substantial coverage for liability which you want unless you plan always poor guess more like boston than like rural area ergo more expensive any recommendations what should buy where should look for there used annual buyer guides the usual motorcycle magazines found those helpful getting idea what new recent models might available you could probably look through past issues size what used bikes might available first bike was years old when bought went friend advice instead also look the bikes that you see people riding that are parked the street basically settled present bike noticing that there were lot high mileage bmw running around and they were generally set the way wanted nothing wrong with talking various dealers your area visiting showrooms dealers the boston area least when was shopping were very nice about letting you look around their showrooms and quoting prices for bikes that weren the latest models hence cheaper although ended buying both bikes private sales david karr karr cornell edu bmw dod also bmwmoa nra aclu
rec.motorcycles	help which bikes are short article apr ncar ucar edu bean cgd ucar edu gregory bean writes help got friend shopping for her first motorcycle this great unfortunately she needs most seat this not great far the only thing found was old and unhappy looking look for happier looking suzuki used have designation for example former boss had which had seat couple inches lower than the regular but was certainly cruiser david karr karr cornell edu bmw dod also bmwmoa nra aclu
rec.motorcycles	bike for sale usa article apr zorro tyngsboro zorro tyngsboro jeff derienzo writes recently become father twins don think can afford keep bikes and babies both babies are staying the harleys going xlhd hey was wife bike well that was pretty uncalled for smile our harley manhood feeling challenged jeff derienzo this where wanna sit and buy you drink someday temple the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb columbia edu dod stanley yamaha bmw toyota runner nyc
rec.motorcycles	msf program where could someone mail the archive location the msf program for ibm right thanks this where wanna sit and buy you drink someday temple the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb columbia edu dod stanley yamaha bmw toyota runner nyc
rec.motorcycles	story lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes allowed yes there god open containers the street was the signs the bars yeah right the cops hand for the couple thousand bikers block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans least feet deep the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still wonder why they stereotype erc whacha mean ifin they whom ever they are want stereotype one that likes drink beer and watch lovely ladies display their beautiful bodies like that stereotype you were refering stereotype infer negative you noticed didn rape pillage burn down the town also left mucho bucks money with the town thinks the town likes least they said lynn hall nos bros
rec.motorcycles	traffic morons article shd athena uga edu ahatcher athena uga edu allan hatcher wrote you can make citizens arrest anything but felony not sure that true let rephrase you can file complaint which will bring the person into court understand citizens arrest does not have the physical detention the person better now john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this from article murdoch acc virginia edu cdw dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes cdw dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers writes going buy bmw just cast vote for groucho thought you were gonna buy bmw for its superior power and handling yes but the was just tad out price range obmotowashing just does everyone cut their finger the evil cotterpin lurking somewhere the dark recesses the back end the bike when giving the prized moto bath seem slice the pinkie one hand the other every time both them this time ride safe send your old moa rags all cliff weston dod seca thought might cool have the whole bike done powder coat like maybe black undercoat with neon splatter something brian simmons you beemers have jeff campbell wxs frog sarvax cmhnet org
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article dpa news ysu edu yfn ysu edu john daker wrote previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground this true evinced the popularity shaft drive drag bikes john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	cobra locks article rinnale cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com writes was posting alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing motorcycle got several responses referring the cobra lock described below has anyone come across store carrying this lock the chicago area available through some dealerships who turn have back order from the manufacturer directly each one made order least you get nonstandard length standard believe any other feedback from someone who has used this see below article innraj shelley washington edu basiji stein washington edu david basiji writes incidentally the best lock found for bikes the cobra lock cable which shrouded articulated hardened steel sleeve the lock itself cylindrical and the locking pawl engages the joints the articulation points the chain can adjusted like handcuffs you can get any leverage the lock break open and the cylinder well protected wouldn want cut one these without torch and vice and heavy duty cutting wheel have long cobralinks lock that used use for harley she doesn get out much anymore don use the lock that often anymore made articulated steel shells covering seven strands steel cable probably enough stop all the joyriders but unfortunately professionals can open rather easily freeze link break frozen link with your favorite method hammers work well snip through the steel cables which have authority are frightfully thin with set boltcutters for the same money you can get kryptonite cable lock which anywhere from thick steel cable looks like steel rope shielded flexible covering protect your bike finish and has barrel type locking mechanism don know adjustable but source says more difficult pick than most locks and the cable tends squish flat bolt cutter jaws rather than shear model all bets are off the thief has die grinder with cutoff wheel even the most durable locks tested yield this tool less than one minute fyi getting krypto cable next paycheck later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	point for helmet law point for article prcrs prc com terry prcrs prc com terry cunningham writes know law either the books proposed that bans motorcycles from any place that want many private places ban bikes for example the famous mile drive the monterrey peninsula and have stayed resorts that sported motorcycles allowed sign the entrance and there have been public places call the ama and ask for jim bensberg any one else their legislative office they will recound the many public places that they had bring court reverse their ban bikes that includes everything from public parks full cities there are probably few fights their books now speak that another good reason donate their legislative fund death life way telling you you been fired geis paul blumstein paulb harley tti com dod abate ama hog doh laa marc arrl platypus qrp arpci naswa lwca rcma cala transaction technology inc santa monica
rec.motorcycles	cobra locks you may find useful this repost the original sender the bottom cut here article rec motorcycles path scrumpy bnrgate corpgate news utdallas edu hermes chpc utexas edu ute exas edu swrinde mips pacbell com iggy vitalink com widener eff ibmpc cug pipex unipalm uknet cybaswan eeharvey from eeharvey cybaswan uucp harvey newsgroups rec motorcycles subject best way lock bike message cybaswan uucp date jul gmt references jul usenet ins cwru edu lines these are the figures from the performance bikes lock test taken without permission course the price for comparison all the cable locks have some sort armour the chain locks are padlock and chain each lock was tested for maximum ten minutes secs for each test bottle jack cutting disc bolt croppers gas gas flame the table should really split into immoblisers for while and lock somethings for short while make comparisons type weight gas total price sec sec sec sec sec pounds arm folding cyclelok bar abus steel cable flex oxford cable revolver abus diskus chain arm folding cyclelok bar abus extra lock cobra cable abus closed chain shackle kryptonite lock oxford lock magnum disclock disc lock abus lock mini block disc lock pretty depressing reading think good lock and some common sense about where and when you park your bike the only answer spent all spare time over the last two weeks landscaping trashing the garden and two friends with bikes new house accommodate our three bikes relative security never underestimate how much room bike requires manouver walled area anyway since the weekend there are only two bikes and didn use his abus closed shackle lock was too much hassle take with him when visiting his parents minimum wait weeks they don decide investigate for the insurance company make offer and for the real haggling begin abus are german company and would seem not well represented the but very common the the distributor given the above article michael brandon ltd oliver crescent hawick roxburgh tel the distributors for the other locks can also given required don lose ian ian harvey university college swansea too old rock roll eeharvey swan pyr too young die
rec.motorcycles	countersteering sans hands how steer when hands aren the bars open budweiser left hand camel cigarette the right feet allowed lean and the bike turns countersteering countersteering like benchracing only with taller seat your feet aren the floor rick
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article apr vax cit cornell edu xlyx vax cit cornell edu writes possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike terry least that what told the nasa rent cop that stopped because swore was lifting didn completely buy the part about water the carbs either phil stone new address pstone well motorcycles
rec.motorcycles	route suggestions article apr porthos bellcore com mdc pyuxe bellcore com corrado mitchell writes article qmm dinnnlg cronkite central sun com doc webrider central sun com steve bunis chicago writes after this point the route presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back chicago suggestions you make into new york state the palisades interstate parkway pleasant ride beautiful scenery good road surface minimal traffic you been while since you hit the pip the pavement least until around exit for these days think must have taken beating this winter because don remember being this bad all breaking apart and there are some serious potholes now course there are also the storm drains that are your lane opposed the side the road talk about annoying cost saving measures for traffic don try around weekdays outbound rush hour happens inbound too there are many bdc mitch corrado dec mdc panther tnds bellcore com this where wanna sit and buy you drink someday temple the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb columbia edu dod stanley yamaha bmw toyota runner nyc
rec.motorcycles	hell mets article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes having talked couple people about helmets dropping getting about don sweat you might think about replacing and the other don ride with without helmet first there any way tell helmet damaged structurally dropped about feet cement off seat chipped the paint didn seem screw the actual shell bet the price the helmet that okay from feet higher maybe not don end replacing the real near future would better wear totally nondamaged face dot rated cheapie which doesn fit well keep out the wind well wearing the shoei which lot more comfortable keeps the wind out better quieter but might have some minor damage wear the full facer but then way more worried about wind blast the face and inability hear police sirens than the helmet being little damaged also what would you all reccomend far good helmets slightly disappointed how badly the shoei has scratched etc from not being bloody careful about and how little impact took chip the paint and arguably mess period looking really good full face with good venting wind protection like the shoei style kinda like the norton one saw awhile back too but suspect going have get much more expensive helmet want not replace every time not being careful where set down well next helmet will subject fitting well agv sukhoi that just because like the looks current one shoei task and getting little old and crashed once couple years ago hard impact head hip took care that price was consideration get kiwi hear they are both good and cheap christ don treat head carefully treated the shoei far tossing down and don have any bruises mildly mildly paranoid about the helmet but don get carried away there are people the net like those you mentioned that not consistently live our planet regards charles dod within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article apr cornell edu karr cornell edu david karr writes article mjs zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes all saying that you don even need tell people the technique countersteering cos they will intuitively the first time they try round corner some will and others will steer with their tuchuses don know how much the teaching countersteering the beginner course really helps the tuchus steerers was one guess that always steered bicycle that way and only got the hang countersteering normal riding after the course could the countersteering swerves the course problem but only started using normal riding when decided that turning speed off ramps and the like was lot more difficult that should have been knew how works although that currently for debate definitely knew that works could swerves but only figured out later normal riding just data point think that not bad idea bring the idea but best let everyone tuchus steer for the first lesson two they can learn shift gears before they have worry about proper handlebar technique countersteering fact experienced rider course instructors claimed that they could get behind new rider and make the bike turn whichever side they wanted just shifting their weight around even when the operator was trying turn the opposite direction admit never actually seen this have our beginner course had passenger training sometime during the lesson the instructor would hop the back the bike and the student would take him for ride the student did not give the instructor the you are sack potatoes passenger speech the instructor would steer the bike and make general nuisance himself was amusing watch just happy that didn happen bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	question about helmets article qmnp inn mojo eng umd edu oconnor eng umd edu mark connor writes the other side the fence owned bieffe off road helmet took what would consider minor fall and had visible damage the shell yes the helmet did its job but the damage impact ratio was scary own bell moto now have taken impacts order twice the bieffe impact this frequently and don even have scratch after two seasons recommendation buy high quality gear ymmv when your helmetted nogin hits immoveabe object there are only four things dissipate the energy the immoveable object the helmet shell the helmet liner the rider head the rider ego five assuming that the helmet head assembly takes the same impact the shell cracks one case then the other the liner must dented the head gets jiggled the the liner that dented the helmet just toast the shell were cracked won absorb energy form impact that area the head that getting jiggled maybe the new gear isn high quality after all bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes article jnmoyne moustic lbl gov jnmoyne lbl gov jean noel moyne writes hold second and clarify something for what does dwi stand for thought was dui for driving under influence here what does stand for driving while intoxicated this was changed here louisiana when girl went court and won her case claiming stoned pot not intoxicated liquor here driving while impaired that about covers everything bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist article srgenprp com blaisec com blaise cirelli writes thinking buying motorcycle whenever tell people this usually get answer like why you want that brother sister cousin knows somebody who had motorcycle and now they are brain dead result accident the question have how dangerous riding exactly dangerous looks you hard see and have little protection keeping out trouble means knowing your limits keeping your machine good shape and being able predict and make for every stupid move that drivers make out there deal with because fun but staying alive takes conscious effort bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points article apr bcars bnr keithh bnr keith hanlan writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well looks like cked for insurance had dwi and for the beemer rec vehicle cost almost bucks insure year now what sell the bike and the car and start taking the bus that way you can keep drinking which seems where your priorities lay expect that enough this list have lost friends because driving drunks that our collective sympathy will somewhat muted look guy doubt anyone here approves drunk driving but been caught and convicted and punished maybe you ought lighten mean isn like most haven had few and then ridden driven home just didn get caught and can speak for myself and say will never happen again but that beside the point answer the original poster insure whatever vehicle cheapest and can get you and from work and suffer through for few years til your rates drop and don drink and drive had one friend killed drunk and was rear ended one totaling bike bent frame and only failing kill because had eye mirror while waited the stoplight regards charles dod within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	dogs article pntm cbnewsj att com car cbnewsj att com charles rogers writes this tactic depends for its effectiveness the dog conformance psychological norm that may not actually apply particular dog tried with some success before but won work charlie manson dog one that really really stupid large irish setter taught this yard apparently his territory one day sure was playing game with the game was probably kill the very angry neighbor before can dispense the terrible punishment what dog weighs maybe max you can handle you have presume thumbs grapple with and tear head off sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages regards charles dod within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article stafford stafford winona msus edu stafford vax winona msus edu john stafford writes apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive yes but the rear wheel comes off the ground not the front see just hops into the air figure john stafford sure you can wheelies with shaft drive bike had bmw that was wheelie monster course didn have the initial power burst just twist into the air had pop the clutch also had replace front fork seals few times well the fairing bit heavy slamming down onto those little stantion tubes all the time but let give you fair warning trashed the ring pinion gear the final drive assume doing wheelies and this was cheap fix either there some kind slip device the shaft prevent from breaking unfortunately didn save the gears the topic wheelies the other day saw kid big hurricane stoppy rear wheelie man had the rear end this bike about feet off the ground traffic light don recommend these activities anymore now that old guy with kids own but looked damn impressive you can keep both tires the ground least have pointed that direction cheers
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com jrlaf sgi msd lmsc lockheed com laferriere writes now now keith just calm down what are you some prohibitionist prick the point andrew infante posting was obvious solicit suggestions pertaining the cost insurance and the like don care you are madd sadd whatever keep yourself all appreciate that well simply put drinking irrelavent driving drunk indefensable and unforgivable there large differnece but then with attitude like yours expect you dead soon just hope you don take human being out with you dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles article apr adobe com cjackson adobe com curtis jackson writes article apr alw nih gov gregh niagara dcrt nih gov gregory humphreys writes only have about work with that would have cover everything bike helmet anything else that too ignorant know need buy the following numbers are approximate and will doubt get flamed helmet new but cheap jacket used very cheap gloves nothing special motorcycle safety foundation riding course must wow courses georgia are much cheaper for both the list looks good but also add heavy boots work hiking combat similar think peace alan alanf eng tridom com kotbbbb gsxr ama dod pgp key available
rec.motorcycles	strange experience was very nice out yesterday the burgh rode bike gynecologist appointment when came the exam noticed helmet sitting chair got excited and picked and started asking all sorts questions about bikes and dealers the area and the msf course apparently rode friends for while years ago and recently the bug ride caught him again needless say had never before talked about bikes much such position know what mean chris hogan andrew cmu edu soft the massacre suns evening sabres slain emily dickinson
rec.motorcycles	good reasons wave each other article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes one those morning just getting the coffee thoughts waving other bikers makes more sense than just hey how going nice meet you the road have good ride you watching for other bikes wave means your attention the road where should and you more likely see cages keeps you the habit watching really carefully for bikes when you cage this good thing the down side that when cage have numerous occasions slammed hand into the rolled window effort wave passing biker the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca seca suzuki seca turbo sabre gts can afford the mbeaving bnr parking spaces don need steenkin parking spaces
rec.motorcycles	harley davidson mailing list email taste sensation anyone interesting mailing list for harley davidson bikes lifestyle politics and whatever over members from countries make may subscribe sending request harley request thinkage uunet thinkage harley request your request join should have signature something giving your full email address not rely the header from field being useful this not automated listserv facility not expect instant gratification the list digest format scheduled for twice day members the harley list may obtain back issues and subject index listings pictures etc via email archive server server access restricted list subscribers only ftp access real soon other motorcycle related lists heard not run these addresses may may not current stroke strokes request microunity com dirt dirt request zygot ati com european listserv frigg isc com racing race request formula corp sun com digest request formula corp sun com short riding short request smarmy sun com wet leather listserv frigg isc com climbs the hills like matchless cause honda built really light brian wilson honda honda
rec.motorcycles	dogs article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes what dog weighs maybe max you can handle you have presume thumbs grapple with and tear head off sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages regards charles dod professionals who train guard dogs when polled gave themselves chance survival tackling trained dog unarmed trained guard dog not trifled with untrained mutt may another story obmoto local dog used chase all the time really annoying finally started stopping every time chase didn know what then and would usually just slink off the road after couple weeks this stopped chasing altogether would still chase cars other bikes though think recognized when went mike heathman briar rose dod lilly research titan awaiting resurrection indianapolis where now that gone too far
rec.motorcycles	need parts info for maicoletta scooter posted for friend looking for tires dimensions also looking for brakes info relining existing shoes also any other maicoletta owners anywhere have contact with call scott email saw fops the thousand sew themselves together round the lloyds building disclaimer writings have nothing with employer keep that way pete ashdown pashdown slack sim com salt lake city utah
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles motorcycle safety foundation riding course must wow courses georgia are much cheaper for both maryland they were each when learned ride years ago now for the beginner riders course and for the experienced riders course which admittedly takes only about half the time
rec.motorcycles	wrecked bmw you does anyone you know have wrecked later anything anything that they are interested getting rid need motor but will buy whole bike email replies david braun ftcollinsco ncr com dab vuse vanderbilt edu phone voice mail home
rec.motorcycles	what squid was riceburner respect article qqxp cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don wave return waves ever even each excuse for being ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but and you chris behanna especially squid dana myers views expressed here are mine and not necessarily dana locus com dod reflect those employer this extra supports the abolition the and wpm tests
rec.motorcycles	where put your helmet from behanna syl nec com chris behanna maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes grf dropped shoei off the seat bike while trying rock onto centerstand chipped the heck out the paint have the one say don stupid leave your helmet the seat where can fall down and boom helmets the ground table chair shelf any other surface that large enough support them that they will not easily knocked down another good place for your helmet your mirror kid you not you own typical standard other bike with fairly average mirrors that screw into your handlebars your helmet should fit over your mirror and fairly stable doubt have mention but this trick isn quite smart goldwing cbr any gsxr any bike with fairing mounted mirrors was little surprised though find that you had your helmet your seat while you were centerstanding your bike usually leave helmet until bike parked for other reason than wouldn want helmet any surface that was about start tilting and jerking ryan cousinetc yamaha vision black pig inverness live ride kotrb ajs king rat work dod squid could afford the bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver canada live saw the quote below pair nankai race replica leathers think this sort phrase typically known japlish slmr drive agressively rash magnificently nankai leathers computer dynamics bbs hst vancouver canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	spagthorpe viking from viking iastate edu dan sorenson ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes riding the hill leading house encountered liver and white springer spaniel relation the springer softail the springer spagthorpe close relation the spagthorpe viking must have missed the article the spagthorpe viking was that the one with the little illuminated dragon head the front fender style later copied indian and the round side covers not all the viking was trick little unit made way back when forties fifties when spag was trying make racing the first iteration the springer was boxer twin very similar max friz famous design but with overhead point cam see below for more the valvetrain the problem was that the thing had ground clearance whatsoever the solution was curve the cylinder bores that the ground clearance was substantially increased springer motor front viking motor front this roughly the idea except that the bores were gradually curved around radius the pistons were loath make sharp angled turn the middle their stroke the engine also had curved connecting rods accomodate the stroke the engine stuck out far because its revolutionary and still unique overhead cam system through the use clever valve timing and and extrordinarily trick valve linkage only single cam lobe was required drive both overhead valves just revolutionary was the hydraulic valve actuation which used pressurized stream oil power the waterwheel which kept the lobe spinning over one side effect that required some rather brutal engineering fixes was that until the engine oil pressure came normal the engine valve timing would more less random resulting some impressive start valve damage the solution was little hand crank that pressurized the cases before you started the beast remarkably similar the system used new porsches pressurize the oil system before the car started the cage however uses electric oil pump wimps despite this fix the engine had nasty propensity for explosively firing its valves into the pistons when cylinder would temporarily lose bit oil pressure corner the solution was run even higher oil pressures and change the gaskets and seals regularly this was feasible because was racing engine with just single overhead lobe and pushrod shaft chain towers because the hydraulic system the head the engine came almost perfect point lobe complex linkage not shown due valvestems complexity piston note that the tip was not truly vertical was about degree angle the ground and this drawing doesn show the curvature because there was none the head itself the bore curve would start about where the cylinder bore disappears this diagram the effect the pointy heads top pair gently pundits the day even said sensuously curved cylinders was much like pair finned viking horns poking out from beneath the gas tank thus the name the vik was moderately successful racer lightning fast when worked but plagued problems relating its revolutionary technology eventually was dumped when spag finally realized that racing was not where the spagthorpe name would made the machines were raced for another year two privateers and their fate approximately six vikings were made plus one possibly two springers confusing the issue one old spag staffer who swears and down that this machine was tooled for production and that many twenty thirty machines may have come off the line however modern record production viking has survived and most motorcycle historians discount this story ryan cousinetc yamaha vision black pig inverness live ride kotrb ajs king rat work dod squid could afford the bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver canada live slmr you aren sliding you aren riding computer dynamics bbs hst vancouver canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	krypto cables was cobra locks article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes for the same money you can get kryptonite cable lock which anywhere from thick steel cable looks like steel rope shielded flexible covering protect your bike finish and has barrel type locking mechanism don know adjustable but source says more difficult pick than most locks and the cable tends squish flat bolt cutter jaws rather than shear model fyi getting krypto cable next paycheck word warning though kryptonite also sells almost useless cable locks under the kryptonite name when obtained second motorcycle migrated one kryptonite locks from bicycle the new bike then went out shopping for new lock for the bicycle for about the same money had the choice kryptonite cable lock advantages lock front and back wheels bicycle and keep them both kryptonite name cheesy name lock advantages real steel chose the kryptonite cable after less than week took back disgust and exchanged for the cheesy name lock first the krypto cable bought not made kryptonite not covered the kryptonite guarantee and doesn even approach kryptonite standards quality and quality assurance just some generic made taiwan cable lock with the kryptonite name secondly the latch engagement mechanism something joke don know mine was particularly poor example but was often quite frustrating get the latch positively engage and sometimes would seem engage only fall open when went unlock thirdly the lock has little plastic door the keyway which serves the sole purpose frustrating any attempt insert the key the dark didn try obviously but have doubts that the lock mechanism would stand insert screwdriver and torque attack fourthly the cable was not opinion sufficient thickness deter theft for piece crap bicycle that all cables suffer the weakness that they can cut few strands time you are patient you can cut cables with fingernail clippers aviation snips would through the cable well under minute michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	for johs dhhalden last nick pettefar npet bnr wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust they learn newbie sorry disappoint you but far the internet goes was baghdad while you were still your dads bag most the people who made this group interesting years ago are longer around and only have time make random sweep once week hence missed most this thread based your previous postings apparently devoid humour sarcasm wit the apparent capacity walk and chew gum the same time assumed you were serious mea culpa still nice see that bnr are doing well that they can afford overpay some contractors sit and read news all day pete young pky fmg phone most people prefer entertaining nonsense unexciting reality
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this article apr sarvax cmhnet org frog sarvax cmhnet org jeff frog campbell writes from article murdoch acc virginia edu cdw dayhoff med virginia edu dances with federal rangers obmotowashing just does everyone cut their finger the evil cotterpin lurking somewhere the dark recesses the back end the bike when giving the prized moto bath seem slice the pinkie one hand the other every time both them this time you beemers have yes they but considering never wash bmw unless need work never get cuts untill the tools come out altho the best scar now faded was from the exhaust piper while try change the oil after overheating the engine watch out for idiot drivers that won let you pass the mountains when you have rider case oil was sale and case beer with drain bolt that decided seize just how does everyone else clean out the area under the transmission bmw bike they only way have found remove the engine and transmission that and the clutch arm are impossible clean which wear one the are located laz anyone know where can get the heads polished and ported cheap also how much should that run
rec.motorcycles	question this probably stupid question but new the motorcycle scene don really know anything about what dod thanks jonathan fields fields cis ohio state edu
rec.motorcycles	der whassa deltabox article kxal izc ccu umanitoba klinger ccu umanitoba jorg klinger writes beleive called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won fix this from someone riding gsxr gutsy
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion need some advice having someone ride pillion with ninja this will the the first time taken anyone for extended ride read farther than around the block riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road hamilton loop for you bay areans this person lbs and fairly small don see weight too much problem but what sort advice should give her before want her hold onto rather than the grab rail out back and heard that she should look over shoulder the direction turning she leans with but what else are there traditional signals for slow down faster hafta pee etc really want this positive experience for both mainly that she want with again any help will appreciated thanks bob bob wert rmw genie gene com rwert well dod ama ninja mustang seven turns the highway seven rivers cross sometimes you feel like you can fly away sometimes you get lost
rec.motorcycles	yamaha honda opinions hte market for new bike been without for few years the two main bikes looking seriously are the yamaha virago and the honda shadow vlx leaning towards the yamaha for its shaft drive the honda chain insurance fla more costly than thought staying this power range thanks advance for any opinions and experiences
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means take you own advice and wuit you whining about flames brains and can spell either edu hope you not student duke you would wasting your tuition the beav mike beavington dod sabre mbeaving bnr employer has idea what talking about
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well few you aptly put get off the road jerk don wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too you noticed was more than two years ago and yes learned and cost and yes known people friends and relatives who been involved drunk related accidents not them they were hit and cousin still recovering can take back what happened yes was stupid but reminding about all the time you neither helping yourself stuff your opinion hey man you brought agree completely driving drunk really stupid and understand and appreciate that you feel bad about but dwi endemic our society real problem and motorcyclists can the worst vulnerable positions around drunk driver alert readers might remember that last year witnessed dwi accident right bloody front and was unable save the life one the participants reported here also drunk driving motorcyclists prime cause their injury and death which raises the insurance rates forces stupidly restrictive laws and turns the public against those who ride responsibly view drunk driving should carry mandatory prison sentence one the traffic offenses which not public funds issue but genuine safety issue you bring the subject rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don expect people respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	racelist who what where greetings fellow motorcycle roadracing enthusiasts background the racing listserver boogie ebay sun com contains discussions devoted racing and racing related topics this pretty broad interest group individuals have variety backgrounds motojournalism roadracing from the perspective pit crew and racers engineering motosports enthusiasts the size the list grows weekly are currently little over one hundred and eighty five members with contributors from new zealand australia germany france england canada finland switzerland and the united states the list was formed october response perceived need both provide technical discussion riding the edge performance roadracing and improve the very low signal noise ratio found rec motorcycles anyone free join discussion necessarily limited the rules the list issues related racing motorcycles and flame free how get the daily distribution you are welcome subscribe subscribe send your request race request boogie ebay sun com traffic currently runs between five and twenty five messages per day depending the topic please not send your subscription request the list directly after you have contacted the list administrator you will receive rsvp request please respond this request timely manner that you can added the list the request generated order insure that there valid mail pathway your site upon receipt your rsvp you will added either the daily digest distribution per your initial request how get the digest distribution possible receive the list digest form single email message the roadracing digest mailed out whenever contains enough interesting content given the frequency postings this appears about every other day should you wish receive the list via digest once every please send subscription request digest request boogie ebay sun com how post the list this open forum post article the list send race boogie ebay sun com depending how mail set your site you may may not see the mail that you have posted you want see though this isn necessarily guarantee that went out you can include metoo line your mailrc file unix based mail systems bounces because haven had the time the inclination replace the list distribution mechanism still have problem with bounces returning the poster message occasionally sites users off line either leaving their place employment prematurely hardware problems and you will receive bounces from the race list check the headers carefully and you find that the bounce originated sun from whence administer this list contact through administration hat race request boogie ebay sun com not ignore the bounce other lists two strokes strokes microunity com harleys harley request thinkage uunet watmath thinkage harley request european bikes majordomo onion rain com body message write subscribe euro moto thanks seeing you rich race list administrator rich boogie ebay sun com stefan fielding isaacs office fax dba art science books design voice pager ama ccs currently providing consulting writing services gain technology verity
rec.motorcycles	kreme article apr vax cit cornell edu vax cit cornell edu writes folks recently saw one post about kreme being bad idea but that was only one man opinion any one else have any experience with the stuff sporty had some pinhole leaks open the back seam kreme about year ago and have had problems all real careful the cleaning part the solution hell paint jim jim groh groh sig fsu edu dod hog new improved xlh fxr xlh xlh smaller sig
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes article oxz cellar org craig cellar org saint craig writes shz mare att com keeper the tude writes most people wave return wave when harley other harley riders seldom wave back when duck squids don wave return waves ever even each other from what can tell when take hand off the bars fall down jorg klinger gsxr you only new who arch eng services lost horizons think umanitoba man the embalmer anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	der whassa deltabox ramarren kops apple com ramarren apple com godfrey digiorgi writes can someone tell what deltabox frame and what relation that has any the frame hawk that way next time some guy comes some parking lot and sez hey dude nice bike that deltabox frame there can say something besides duh huh beleive called the dentabox frame nothing some putty and paint won fix jorg klinger gsxr you only new who arch eng services lost horizons think umanitoba man the embalmer anonymous squidonk
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle detailing tip article apr hemlock cray com ant palm cray com tony jones writes how about someone letting know motorcycle detailing tip the far side instrument panel was scuffed when the previous owner dumped the bike same true for one the turn signals both the scuffed areas are black plastic recall reading somewhere that there was some plastic compound you could coat the scuffed areas with then rub down ending with nice smooth shiny finish the may motorcyclist someone writes and recomends using rubberized undercoating for this von welch vwelch ncsa uiuc edu ncsa networking development group cbr subaru speak only for myself and those who think exactly like
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article well pstone well philip stone writes hey how you explain the fact that you pull horse reins left left confusing two threads here three actually believe discussed countersteering horse before basically there are two ways steer horse plow rein and neck rein plow reining steers him keeping the reins separate and you pull the direction you wish neck reining steers horse holding the reins together one hand and pulling against the horse neck the direction you wish when training plow steering horse neck rein one technique cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining the left the right rein pulls against the right side the neck but the left side the bit which the horse used from his plow reining days are you sorry you asked yet green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets article washington edu moseley washington edu steve moseley writes what should carry want comply with intelligent helmet laws take residence fantasy world green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	moving well been fun this last day bellcore and will while before have net access again taking time off and scheduling military schools for the summer joint operations and anything else that looks good have had blast reading responding and commenting things posted here final say are inferior errr wrong news group hopefully back guess internet withdrawl starts around and considering never knew inet existed years ago really going miss yea the guy who called this morning about the military issue boots good luck think you will happy with the tankers boots there are only two types ships the navy submarines and targets dod next raise richard pierson vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer opinions are own don shop malls buy jeans jackets and ammo the same store
rec.motorcycles	aerostitch piece article apr vax cit cornell edu vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which better one piece aerostitch two piece aerostitch looking for more than well the more versatile but the better protection thanks advance nadine what best books have been written that but regard aerostich really depends your particular size shape and needs you upper and lower body are not proportional according aero dimensions then probably going better mixing and matching the piece suit have the piece suit and very happy with having life quota scars from crashing off road very concerned with good protection and believe that the difference protection between the and piece suits almost negligible think the optional hip pads and back protector make much more difference one thing that nice about the piece you somewhere and then want walk around for while still with jacket you can just detach and stow the pants one thing note that goldfine has problems getting good fit for many women with standard suits supposedly for smaller women and petite men for that matter the piece will fit better another recommendation pay for mods you need them wish got inches added pant legs find the long suits are not really that long can imagine how short the standard suits must jonathan polito internet jpolito encore com encore computer corp kildaire farm cary usa voice fax
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc article cmu edu jfriedl cmu edu jeffrey friedl writes egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes apartment complex where used live tried this only they put the thing over the driver window they couldn miss can see the liability putting stickers the car while was moving something but the bdi that chooses start and then drive the car known unsafe condition that would seem liable effort was made remove the sticker came pieces leaving most firmly attached the window was dark and around the sticker before being mangled ineffective attempt torn off warned the car would towed not removed reasonable person would arguably have driven the car had accident occured don think friend attorney would have much trouble fixing blame the apartment mangement practical matter even without conviction the cost and inconvenience defending against the suit would considerable moral matter was pretty fucking stupid thing for paltry violation parking without authorization sticker btw wasn somebody spot was resident only but unassigned parking green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	tracing license plates bdi cagers article jamesf apple com jim franklin writes can file complaint about this and actually have the chance have something done how who where traffic citation accusation having committed crime that why they have through the motions having trial you want one you are still innocent until proven guilty cops are not the only ones who can accuse people committing crimes anyone who witnesses crime can the highway patrol and explain the situation give them description the car and the license number and tell them the specific violation the law which you witnessed and wish prosecute search the vehicle code and have the section number handy fill out the ticket and sign will through the same system any ticket cop writes goes through contested you will have appear court prosecute your word will not carry the same weight cop green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	performance bike frenzy cadwell anyone going the frenzy cadwell park may going but only watch when asked what would most want try before doing said death
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson writes was able avoid accident revving engine and having stock harley pipes make enough noise draw someones attention sure there are horns but hand already the throttle should get into how many feet bike going mph goes seconds how long would take push horn button think you loose sure you hand already the throttle and your thumb already near the horn button pushing the horn button one simple move revving the throttle requires either engaging the clutch accelerating the first more complex manuver than simple horn button push and the second ain too bright when there potential hazard ahead besides the unique sound horn more effective attracting the attention bdi cagers than the sound engine which what they expect hear you are the road usually the case single anecdote hardly constitutes sound safety procedure the answer feet green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	for sale kawasaki michigan for sale from ann arbor michigan kawasaki miles cherry red excellent condition asking contact brian days evenings weekends mail vaughan umich edu reply this post
rec.motorcycles	bdi experience sebastian sears the tue apr gmt wibbled came around right hand sweeper going around mph only find cager going around mph calmly driving along with other traffic around lane not crossing the line not swerving fully and totally within the south bound lane one lane each direction and haven even got there yet must have been some other brit nick the english biker dod concise oxford left right lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post mike sixsmith the apr gmt wibbled very interesting yawn stuff deleted because like that formal training view absolutely essential you going able ride bike properly and safely but including countersteering theory newbie courses are confusing people unnecessarily right the time when there are far more important matters for them learn and that was original point mike complete concordance with you there mike was silver starrider instructor for while learn about countersteering last year and have been riding bikes since were never told about countersteering when being taught instruct doesn seem have affected friends pupils just rode blissful ignorance nick the biker dod concise oxford lud nick pettefar contractor large currently incarcerated bnr maidenhead the united kingdom npet bnr bmw kay pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article viking ponderous iastate edu viking iastate edu dan sorenson writes ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes mere mph gravel road with few loose rocks just like bad concrete and lbs swinging beef jumped fence came out the ditch and rammed when saw her jump the fence went for the gas since she was about feet ahead but good forty the side damn cow literally chased down and nailed damage cow bent case guard and severely annoyed rider were the only casualties had shotgun still eating steak nope lbs cow can hit when actively evading forget much more manueverable dog just run them over one day out riding friend and were passing field goats and noticed out the road slowed pass the ram made dash friend just missing him and then tangling self the barb wire fence being good samaritains and generally nice guys turned around untrangle the goat from the barbed wire pulled next him seeing him still tangled stopped the bike and got off the goat had vanished into the field guess jolly roger
rec.motorcycles	got bike was wanted advice purchase article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes being reletively new reader quite impressed with all the usefull info available this newsgroup would ask how get own dod number but probably too busy riding does this count yes thought about cat dod faq mailx hahahha jburnside mit edu waiting press return hey mon guys and gals chose words very carefully and even tried get faq straight don holler bohica jamie burnside custom jburnside mit edu kdx sold for sale
rec.motorcycles	anti freeze anti freeze was wrong still had the issue street rodder last pile the february issue page there advirtisement for anti freeze and makes great party mixer the neo synthetic oil company has reputation for developing overkill priducts the protect and extend the life mechinical things and here there latest development propylene glycol probably the finest radiator coolant available after miles testing they find has boiling point degrees much higher than conventional coolants which helps elminate detonation and pinging allows the use smaller radiators race cars will not damage aluminum blocks heads and environmentally safe yep this the good stuff baker precision products dept srm gundry ave long beach neither endorse unendorse the above product only copied the advert blurb for others info ymmv there are only two types ships the navy submarines and targets dod next raise richard pierson vnet internet fist iscp bellcore com uunet uunet bcr fist include std disclaimer opinions are own don shop malls buy jeans jackets and ammo the same store
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article zen sys uea mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes secondly the adhesion the tyre the road the suspension geometry and the ground clearance the motorcycle which dictate how quickly you can swerve avoid obstacles and not the knowledge physics between the rider ears are you seriously suggesting that countersteering knowledge enables you corner faster more competently than you could manage otherwise not will put two riders identical machines the one who knows what doing and why that will faster may possible improve your technique you have idea what through trial and error but not very effective methodology only understanding the technique steering motorcycle can one improve that technique hold that this applies any human endeavor that all interesting bit knowledge and claim that essential for all bikers know that you can corner faster better result absurd you consider understanding the physics traction absurd are you seriously suggesting that one can form traction management policy without understanding what what factors increase decrease available traction braking highly unlikely that any biker going develop his maximum swerving ability without any knowledge turning techniques for most his riding life this may not problem but emergency situation very definately placing him disadvantage but including countersteering theory newbie courses are confusing people unnecessarily right the time when there are far more important matters for them learn disagree the existance and immense success riding courses which teach the technique indicate that the concept can taught manner that neither confusing nor detracts from any other aspects the course and that was original point perhaps but the ensuing discussion you strayed far from that point claim that knowledge steering technique irrelevant rider ability find this assertion ludicrous green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker green east sun com and showed him picture you said dod get know her you like her the grateful dead seemed like the least could
rec.motorcycles	bmw battery article apr msstate edu vech msstate edu craig vechorik writes remember correctly the reason that bmw come with those expensive and relatively worthless short lived varda batteries cause bmw owns controling interest that battery manufacturer what wrong with the bmw battery never had problems and know numerous people that are still using the original battery there year old beemers the original battery year old bmw may fine mine lasted many years the replacement battery from bmw was disaster the mechanic from comp acc told that would warantee replace the bad one with new one the same evil bad batteries and tell the customer they have problems bring back and they again seems that many those batteries were doa near doa and always unlikely going strong the end the warantee period them there was big batch bad ones and they replaced them with you guessed more bad ones bmw switched battery that has more cold cranking amps even has less total juice switched yuasa that has even more cold cranking amps and cost one third fewer dollars neil kirby dod nak archie cbusa att com bell labs columbus usa you think speak for you might have more lawyers than sense
rec.motorcycles	power arc ignition super carb now the bike off warranty finally replaced the stock items softail custom with the title ones installation was pretty easy both cases even for fairly non mechanical chemist type dude like discovered the limitations tool collection but had fun buying and making the requisite tools ignitions power arc single fire ignition easy install but read the wiring diagram carefully setting the static timing was piece cake once installed have found easier starting smoother idle and more power plus more satisfying bass note the exhaust register lovely whompa whompa whompa idle the folks ignitions were great answering dumb questions the phone very helpful bunch guys with great product super carb installation easy once hacked down allen wrench small anough reach get the intake manifold bolts tunes like dream just like they say the stock carb non adjustable was lean that was gasping and spluttering for gas sometimes and even backfiring into the intake manifold the super terrific hesitation any gear and plugs are lovely tan color with need rejet from the factory settings know this may not seem like much you grizzled veteran wrenchers out there but had bike many pieces this weekend began get worried but all went back together again and runs like dream feeling pretty happy now all have install bub pipes and try pass the noise gestapo test russ hughes fxstc dod love yeah that the feeling you get when you like something much your motorcycle sonny barger
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this regards some the posts concerning bias articles bikes versis boxers later date whatever jeezzz lighten wrote the slash two blues for bit humor which seems lacking the moa owners news when most the stuff rode the the first day saw that rode there the second day saw this any body out there know were the sense humor went people though still had mine but dunno regards craig vechorik bmw moa ambassador dod and hey just want vote for somebody instead throwing the trash
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article qmetg sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes horse neck the direction you wish when training plow steering horse neck rein one technique cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining the left the right rein green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker given desire stay far away possible from farming and ranching equipment really hate jump into this thread going anyway but really hate exactly what kind mutant horse like entity you ride anyway does countersteering work the normal garden variety one necked horse obmoto was flipping through the march think issue rider and saw small pseudo for book hand signals appropriate motorcycling mentioned something about signal for your passenger fire any body know the title and author this book and where could get copy this should not understood implying that have grown sociable enough ride with anyone but the book sounded cute tommy mcguire mcguire utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com will append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information identifying personal and independent ibm
rec.motorcycles	recommendation for front tire hey folks got pair dunlop sportmax radials and they been very sticky slides yet but all this talk about the metzelers has wondering next set should lazer comp and radial metzeler rear for hard sport touring how the choices stack nathaniel dod ama
rec.motorcycles	ducati opinions wanted previous article bgardner pebbles com blaine gardner says article qhm mbs news ysu edu yfn ysu edu albion bowers writes previous article markb novell com burnham says ducati are really slow they don sell them over here but considering that the not too powerful the gonna dog yeah mph the quarter such slug come when was the last time you used your max power peak think maybe you should ride one first before passing judgement there lot more than just maximum acceleration guess out touch but what exactly the ducati twin desmo that half twin with the balance weight where the cylinder would second for isn bad all sorry should have been more specific the ran the quater the last small twin duc got the and the pantah based twin was the pantah and ran creditable modern carbs and what not should put the the high btw fzr ran mid and the latest crop japanese will out run that hard remember but but new goof will clobber old handily both top end and roll technology stands still for one bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die article qmi sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article cvbnetprime com tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson writes sure there are horns but hand already the throttle should get into how many feet bike going mph goes seconds how long would take push horn button the answer feet green former ninjaite was drinking last night with biker try something like feet edgetacalculator tommy mcguire mcguire utexas edu mcguire austin ibm com will append appropriate disclaimer outgoing public information identifying personal and independent ibm
rec.motorcycles	changing sprocket ratios honda cbrooks uky edu clayton brooks writes any honda gurus know can replace the the front sprocket honda with slightly larger one see this being preferable reducing the size the rear one just wanting ride more relaxed rpm can done contact chaparell cycle supply they ought have the sprocket you need want for cheap well much cheaper than your average dealership hey they even had sprockets for which hard find accesssories for craig intecptor pilot craig cellar org the institute dod kotk keeper the keepers bauds fuschal the promised land where those who have faith shall wear hats great majesty yea though they made cardboard and have humourous arrows through them red dwarf
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes blind driveway mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for car hit mph the end eagerly await comment well driveway just keep eye out for the blue glh turbo that utilizes the hit the ground running merging technique least don have dog that you need worry about last week while entering sand gravel covered intersection the country caught something unkosher out the corner eye you know that disgusting sensation when great yet unidentified evil about intimately acquaint itself with you kind like knowing that that darkening shadow around you just cannot possibly anything even remotely good because probably has something with boeing behaving gravitationally speaking much like brick negotiating way into this intersection that somehow reminded daytona beach sans sun babes manage get glance impending destiny lucifer own dog hell secret blend canine doberman and rottweiler moved with the grace doberman yet had the hulk and jowels the rottweiler creature with definite wrong end the picture mirrors was fuzzy but there was mistaking the fangs and saliva trail shorten verbose tale burly gaurdian angels once again performed above and beyond the call duty carried the bike through the sand trap honestlyhave idea how and left the minion beelzebub with face that suspiciously resembles metzler tread blood though rats moral not really sure but more and more believe that bikers ought allowed carry handguns erc eric sundheim grandrapids usa hondo vfr dod
rec.motorcycles	european insurance marc lewis there are two kinds people the world olivetti north america those who divide everything the world into marcl mail spk olivetti com two kinds things and those who don thought was there are two kinds people the world those who think there are two kinds people and those who don and then there there are three kinds people the world those who like math and those who don obmoto michigan weather forecast for saturday high the low chance snow flurries showers possible enjoy the weather where you are have ride phil haan dod why yes that honda that the nature being executive america you have rely other people something you used yourself donald fehr executive director major league baseball players association
rec.motorcycles	route suggestions won able make the joust this summer job related time conflict plan instead going the rider rally knoxville leaving from chicago and generally plan going down along the indiana illinois border into kentucky and then tennessee would very interested hearing suggestions roads routes areas that you would consider must ride while the way knoxville can leave early and need arrive knoxville that leaves pretty good stretch time explore the way the way anyone else going and would like partner for the ride down let know heading east afterward visit family but sure don mind company the ride down the rally depending weather plan motelling tenting thru the trip from the rally heading the blue ridge parkway then jogging into west run marlington petersburg after this point the route presently undetermined into pennsylvania new york and back chicago suggestions for these areas would great interest also many thanks for your ideas enjoy steve bunis sun microsystems dod itasca ama are you sure this april
rec.motorcycles	where put your helmet apr gmt ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau said don stupid leave your helmet the seat where can fall down and boom ryan another good place for your helmet your mirror kid you not this very bad advice helmets have two major impact absorbing layers hard outer shell and closed cell foam impact layer most helmets lose their protective properties because the inner liner compacts over time long before the outer shell damaged delaminates from age hurt tested helmets for many years following his landmark study and has estimated that helmet can lose effectiveness from inner liner compression have video produced that discusses this phenomenon detail puncture compression the type caused mirrors sissy bars and other relatively sharp objects the worst offender even when the comfort liner unaffected dents and holes the foam can seriously degrade the effectiveness helmet you are the habit parking your lid the mirrors suggest you look under the comfort liner the condition the foam significantly damaged missing replace the helmet jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ harley and ride want
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist article srgenprp com blaisec com blaise cirelli writes the question have how dangerous riding tough question more dangerous than driving car and far more dangerous you don apply modicum intelligence the activity basically stupidity will get you hurt killed lot faster motorcycle than car but with care not unreasonably dangerous also buying good protective clothing helpful that way something does wrong you are likely less severely injured first thing possible take msf driver training course this will get you started the right foot they teach control the vehicle and safe riding practices second buy protective gear minimum good helmet and pair leather gloves are must good sturdy piece footgear also very helpful though leather hiking boots pair old army boots something similar works fine for this purpose long you make sure the laces stay tied after those leather jacket and leather pants chaps are nice well but these are also expensive items for the pants many people consider good pair jeans reasonable preferably recent and fairly heavy weight similarly for jacket good jean jacket reasonable compromise though more people tend have leather jackets around than pants another thing drop garage sales looking for second hand leather jacket look for fairly thick leather these items third don anything stupid don ride after drinking even one drink can noticeably affect you judgement and balance don ride the snow when conditions are such that black ice likely very careful riding the rain slow way down take corners gingerly brake early and gently try not ride you are sick tired taking any medication with drowsiness warnings otherwise not average shape with care you should the next question have what bike would you recommend for first time rider don want race nor want ride cross country nor want ride dirt trails probably drive back roads with occasional rides city streets and freeways the maximum can spend about looking used bike would suggest mid late japanese mid sized standard something range would probably reasonable you are shorter lighter than average you might want low bike possible models the suzuki series etc these are generally inline bikes generally dependable except for tendency weakness the charging system stator and regulator rectifier problems first bike was about server well the honda nighthawk series this may also known the series think honda etc this another series standard motorcycles also fairly dependable kawasaki and yamaha probably have similar bikes but don know them well for mid late models the above you should able buy the bike for under leaving you money for protective clothing and insurance and licensing costs hope this helps david dagibbs qnx com
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article dsc well rwert well bob wert writes need some advice having someone ride pillion with ninja this will the the first time taken anyone for extended ride read farther than around the block riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road hamilton loop for you bay areans say this very bad idea you should start out with something much mellower that neither one you get over your head that particular road requires full concentration not the sort thing you want take passenger for the first time once you both decide that you like riding together and want something longer and more challenging then for hard core road like mines hamilton any case your moral responsibility make sure that she has proper gear that fits especially you going sport riding eric
rec.motorcycles	new motorcycles article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes curtis jackson pens msf course shyah the one here only costs izzat deal what they are free philadelphia dod would give right arm ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	what squid was riceburner respect article apr locus com dana lando locus com dana myers writes article qqxp cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes article apr icomsim com mmanning icomsim com michael manning writes duck squids don wave return waves ever even each excuse for being ignoramus but what are these squids are everybody but and you chris behanna especially squid hey dana long time read afraid the squid rating has gone slightly since getting the ninja but trying very hard restrain myself the bodywork just too damned expensive knock knock least quiet later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes this was changed here louisiana when girl went court and won her case claiming stoned pot not intoxicated liquor geez what happened she got ticket for driving too slow dod technician speed not student are you saying you not edu breath then okay dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired concours mmmmmmmmmm beating you dave ring ding woops you never learn ama dod cog chicago beth bruiser dixon
rec.motorcycles	ride sixteen days had put off test driving the honda finally the was saturday without much rain fact cleared became warm and sunny and the wind died about three weeks ago took long cool ride the hawk down cycles for test ride they had sold and delivered the demo about fifteen hours before arrived and the demo vfr was bike locked the showroom surrounded other bikes and not likely move soon today was different there were even more bikes used dirt bikes used street bikes cars and big tent full outlandishly fat touring bikes with trailers were all squeezed the parking lot some sort fat bike convention shelly and dave were running one msf course each the same time one the classroom and one the back lot plus there was the usuall free cookout food that cycles gives away every weekend the summer hmmm seemed like big moto party after about ten minutes looking for rob cheif sales slime and another minutes reading and signing long disclosure libility pray god form helped push the out into the mess the parking lot went over the the controls put the tank bag from the hawk into the right saddlebag and wife put everything else into the left saddlebag thats nice having helped push the out the lot thought best have move the edge the road away from the bikes and people rode like bicycle cant that heavy thought well was wrong sat the both feet down all could think was big then put one foot heavy came mind very quickly with cindy the back was she the back hard tell with seat three times large hawk seat the bike seemed nearly out control just idling the side the road rpm second gear all the weight seemed dissappear even bike with miles the odometer slippery new tires and pads that did not yet bite the disks things seems smooth and sure cycles section that few folks ever ride about miles north the computer concentration about five miles north where splits away lighly travelled two lane limited access highway goes through heavily forested sections hamilton manchester the sea and newbury its way gloucester its way there meets road that winds from the sea about miles inland andover its way goes through many thoroughly new england spots perfect slow sport touring sections cindy has difficulty with speed gear gear purring along top gear this thing has less low rpm grunt that hawk lane changes were new experience big heft required move this thing responds well though wallowing complaint behind the fairing was fairly quiet but the helmet buffeting was non trivial top gear car passing mph was nearly effortless smooth smooth smooth not sure what the sound reminds but pleasant only the bars were not transmitting endless buzz the jump caused less than impressed with the brakes its down hill reversing camber twice reversing radius decreasing radius turn real squeeze needed the front binder the section were was tight but too urban the works this section but shows its weight went the clam shack oft featured spencer for hire place where you could really find spencer his house was about miles down after putting through traffic for while turned and went back about half way through the onramp yanked cindy wrist our singal for hold tight head check left time find redline second gear gives good shove third too fourth sees dod speed with short shift into top the way saw cops and very light traffic did not cross into dod zone because the bike was too new well now had miles was tried some high effort lane changes some wide sweeping turns time wick went until the buffeting was threating pull off the seat and stayed there when was comfortable with the wind and the steering looked down find indicated mph not bad for touring beverly comes fast more than twice the posted limit the get off mile sign rolled off the throttle and coasted wanted adjust the coming slowness was good idea there were several manhole sized patches sand the exit ramp back the slow and heavy behavior cycles about mile from could see even more cars stacked outside right when got off managed thread the through the cars the edge the concrete pad out front heavy took way too much effort for cindy and put the thing the center stand sure that used the side stand the would have been its side within minute demo opinion heavy put diet smooth comfortable hardly notices the dod speed buy for about less than list just like too much for the bike frank evan perdicaro xyvision color systems legalize guns drugs and cash today edgewater drive inhouse frank marvin wakefield outhouse frank contex com
rec.motorcycles	battery charger just noticed that halogen table lamp runs off volts the big thinngy that plugs into the wall says volts the question can trickle charge the battery with don know the rating the battery but factory intalled one thanks sanjay dod would give right arm ambidextrous
rec.motorcycles	question article ldinn frigate cis ohio state edu fields cis ohio state edu jonathan david fields writes this probably stupid question but new the motorcycle scene don really know anything about what dod this has setup lookit same site arnie skurow later chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article dsc well rwert well bob wert writes need some advice having someone ride pillion with ninja this will the the first time taken anyone for extended ride read farther than around the block riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road hamilton loop for you bay areans you sonuvabitch rub why don you have great weather and great roads here unlike the rest you putzes the nyah nyah nyah for the severely humor impaired this person lbs and fairly small don see weight too much problem but what sort advice should give her before want her hold onto rather than the grab rail out back and heard that she should look over shoulder the direction turning she leans with but what else are there traditional signals for slow down faster hafta pee etc you likely not notice her weight too much piece advice for you don abrupt with the throttle wheelies accelerate wee bit more slowly than usual consciously worry about spitting her off the back much your job keep her the pillion hers and guarantee she put off the bike ripping out from under her when you whack open keep the lean angles pretty tame the first time out too you and her need learn each other body english she needs learn what your idea about how take the turn and you need learn her idea shit don crash now you don work cross purposes while leaned over you can work more aggressive riding over time very important thing tell her put her hand against the tank when you brake this could save you some severely crushed cookies have fun chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs
rec.motorcycles	owners tankbag suggestions wanted article apr ncsu edu martenm chess ncsu edu mark marten writes looking for new tank bag now and wondered you follow owners could make some suggestions what has and has not worked for you there already file this apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown way with the large flat gas tank imagine that almost anything would work personally quite happy with eclipse standard tank bag blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	opinions wanted help what size dirtbikes did you ride and for how long you might able slip into bike like keep telling people though buy older cheaper bike and ride that for while first you might like interceptor example nathaniel dod ama
rec.motorcycles	maxima chain wax tom dietrich txd esd com com wrote parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes bought tried truly the miracle spooge chain lubed wheel clean after good glad hear still studying think life now complete the shaft drive weenies now have comeback when discuss shaft effect sure even though don consider myself weenie rip pithy afraid work bike stuff deleted there also damn little any shaft effect with concours there ppppppphhhhhttttttt heh heh that pretty funny what you call instead shaft effect nathaniel damn little any shaft effect dod ama okay flame bait what
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies apr gmt xlyx vax cit cornell edu said mike possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive sure fact you can wheelie shaft drive motorcycle without even moving just don try countersteering jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ harley and ride want
rec.motorcycles	inverted fork needed rec motorcycles matthew mark mueller andrew cmu edu writes help need the left side inverted fork for gsx can track practice nelson ledges next weekend hey what look like parts store has ever occurred you visit your dealer and fork out the bucks for new one what are the chances someone happening have part laying around much less one working condition sheesh some edu besides only have the right side inverted gsx fork already been converted into floor lamp jeff deeney dod nctr shamu jld hpfcla com ama cohvco llamaha too bad that whole families have torn apart something simple wild dogs jack handey
rec.motorcycles	first bike honda ascot folks going buying first bike and considering honda ascot with less than miles does this sound like reasonable choice there anything special need know thanks nathan
rec.motorcycles	any police ossifers read this stuff laferriere writes was just wondering there were any law officers that read this have several questions would like ask pertaining motorcycles and cops what happened charlie lear used have connections didn hey this cyberspace mister you wanna stateside cop gotta specify john little gaijin japan sun com sun microsystems atsugi japan
rec.motorcycles	was buying advice needed article afoi janvopv cmu edu dale james cmu edu writes great bike but you better damn careful got third motorcycle deleta the bike light for size think pounds but heavy for beginner bike heavy for beginner bike pounds isn except maybe some adman dream with full tank the area lbs depending year etc you you should have problem physically managing the seat roughly akin plastic coated very firm very painful depending upon time the saddle the and versions had much better seat imo the bike suffers from the infamous suzuki regulator problem have far avoided forking out the roughly for the suzuki part kludging different honda regulator rectifier units from junkyards the charging system consistently overcharges the battery have refill nearly weekly this itself not bad but battery access gained only after removing the seat the tank and the airbox regulator lasted over miles and didn overcharge the battery the wiring connectors the charging path did get toasty though tending melt their insulation suspect they were underspecified didn help that they were well removed from cool air battery access the earlier bikes doesn require tank removal after you learn the drill pretty straightforward replacement parts like all suzuki parts are outrageously expensive having bought replacement parts for several brands motorcycles offer grain salt taken with dale assessment good luck and careful dale sentiments can argue with won dean deeds deeds vulcan edsg hac com
rec.motorcycles	newbie article swox gwi mailer fsu edu fsu edu writes hey there yea thats what newbie have never owned motorcycle this makes spring matt not really sure what the purpose this article was but well neither were read for few days then try again curt howland ace dod eff howland nsipo nasa gov sabre meddle not the afairs wizards for makes them soggy and hard light
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article dsc well rwert well bob wert writes this person lbs and fairly small don see weight too much problem but what sort advice should give her before want her hold onto rather than the grab rail out back and heard that she should look over shoulder the direction turning she leans with but what else are there traditional signals for slow down faster hafta pee etc never liked passengers try and shift their weight with the turns all find the weight shift can very sudden and unnerving one thing they just getting comfortable decide look over your other shoulder but don recommend having him her shift her weight with each turn too violent also think someone already said this make sure your passenger wears good gear sometimes choose ride without helmet lacking other safety gear depends how squidly feel but won let passengers what myself can handle but wouldn want hurt anyone else don let them without gloves jacket least jeans heavy boots and helmet that fits really want this positive experience for both mainly that she want with again any help will appreciated real easy amazing how solid grip you have the handle bars that your passenger does not don make her feel like she going slide off the back and snappy turns for you are sickening lurches for her general feels much less controlled and smooth passenger can stand being the back brother bike and ride aggressively when ride and know good pilot still everything feels very unsteady when you passenger thanks bob show off not showing off the first time out this where wanna sit and buy you drink someday temple the dog sea bass sears scs cunixb columbia edu dod stanley yamaha bmw toyota runner nyc
rec.motorcycles	dod confessional can help myself tried rational look the other way but everytime happens its uncontrollable hate pre motorcycles first thought was phase though would get used them didn happen tried gazing and customs but each time sadistically pictured them being hurled off large precipice also picture swarm german tourists cheering and taking holiday snaps but can figure that part out what everytime read sig containing some spoked wheel wonder shudder and feel pity that the poor soul has suffered enough imagine the owner scrapping out his her living discarded maytag refridgerator box tucked next their hoping for some deliverance had the past loathed the milwaukee machine but can actually begin understand some the preaching there must hope the beav mike beavington dod sabre mbeaving bnr employer has idea what talking about
rec.motorcycles	anybody tape daytona article acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb buffalo edu mark olszowy writes haven seen anything about yet but already been mentioned sorry for the repost anyways tnn showing daytona sunday april est don miss got hell finish well looked for and didn manage find listings for tnn has anybody taped vhs and could they persuaded lend after they watch would most greatful jon wright now how the hell did pages software inc dod that come outa mouth vfr
rec.motorcycles	women jackets was must daemon child article apr colorado edu bowmanj csn org jerry bowman writes article bethdc juzw netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes article apr mnemosyne edu jhensley nyx edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc doesn have back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard wife looking for jacket and most the men styles she tried don fit too well they fit the shoulders and arms they too tight across the chest something like that anyone have any suggestions assuming that the pilot addition its handy storage facilities pretty decent fit there any company that makes reasonable line women motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone boulder denver know shop that bothers carrying any there article motorcycling couple months back specifically women attire for serious and not serious riding they mention who makes stuff specific for women dimensions and what also works enough well bates will make custom jackets and leathers for reasonable charge jon wright now how the hell did pages software inc dod that come outa mouth vfr
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist blaisec com blaise cirelli writes the question have how dangerous riding sorta the next question have what bike would you recommend for first time rider honda hawk ymmv paul thompson apple computer
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article apr rtsg mot com svoboda rtsg mot com david svoboda writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well few you aptly put get off the road jerk don wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too you noticed was more than two years ago and yes learned and cost and yes known people friends and relatives who been involved drunk related accidents not them they were hit and cousin still recovering can take back what happened yes was stupid but reminding about all the time you neither helping yourself stuff your opinion hey man you brought agree completely driving drunk really stupid and understand and appreciate that you feel bad about but dwi endemic our society real problem and motorcyclists can the worst vulnerable positions around drunk driver alert readers might remember that last year witnessed dwi accident right bloody front and was unable save the life one the participants reported here also drunk driving motorcyclists prime cause their injury and death which raises the insurance rates forces stupidly restrictive laws and turns the public against those who ride responsibly view drunk driving should carry mandatory prison sentence one the traffic offenses which not public funds issue but genuine safety issue you bring the subject rec moto admitting having been caught dwi and looking for sympathy over the consequences don expect people respond with warm wishes dave svoboda svoboda void rtsg mot com getting tired you and the beav should lighten esp the beav agree that dui dwi serious should have reasonable laws strict enforcement and tough sentences but andrew did not post looking for sympathy over the consequences posted asking for advice because had extremely high quote his post was obviously valid because later found insurance for less noted why was his predicament but did not defend any way drunk driving and has renounced drunk driving there are too many repeat offenders worry about and other bdc why try make this person who longer part the problem outcast has paid his debt society step off the high horse have all been irresponsible the past with that said guilty the same type hostility towards rapists think comes because feel the punishment not severe enough the same may true dwi dui that the case then our stinkin gubment need change had reasonable law about dwi dui with stiff penalty then fewer people would any rate andrew paid his debt defined the law you think that debt actually greater than the law mandates tell your representatives jack waters dod don fear the thief the night its the one that comes the afternoon when still asleep that worry about
rec.motorcycles	extraordinary footpeg engineering article vtserf edu ranck joesbar edu ranck writes exb csdvax csd unsw edu wrote let guess you were making left turn correct the edge the stud contacting the road caused turn and unthread itself you had been making right turn would have tightened the stud bzzzt thanks for playing been making right turn the sucker would have been couple feet off the ground michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	owners tankbag suggestions wanted martenm chess ncsu edu mark marten writes looking for new tank bag now and wondered you follow owners could make some suggestions what has and has not worked for you there already file this apologize for asking and will gladly accept any flames that are blown way got belstaff tankbag and ain too good difficult fix securely cos the the tank fairing sidepanel layout and also with the bars full lock the bag touches the handlebar switches you get the horn full left lock and the starter motor full right was buying another think for magnetic one
rec.motorcycles	help which bikes are short not sure the older bikes but the yamaha virago has spec seat height and the honda shadow
rec.motorcycles	need maintenance tips after reading the service manual for bike suzuki have couple questions hope you can answer when checking the oil level with the dip stick built into the oil fill cap does one check with the cap screwed not more used the dip stick for cage where the stick extracted fully wiped clean and reinserted fully then withdrawn and read the dip stick bike part the oil filler cap and has about inch threads remove the cap wipe the stick clean and reinsert with without screwing down before reading the service manual calls for the application suzuki bond the head cover guess this some sort liquid gasket material you know generic cheaper substitute headlight halogen bulb there easy brighter replacement bulb available where should look for one always very much appreciate your help the weather philadelphia has finally turned warm this weekend saw lotsa bikes and the riders all waved nice change tone from what philadelphia can like chris christopher karras internet cgkarras world std com
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist ditto article srgenprp com blaisec com blaise cirelli writes thinking about becoming bike owner this year any bike experience thus far figure that getting decent used bike for under the thing would pay for itself while grad school car permits are where going and who want ride bus looking for advice first bike best models years not looking for old loud roaring thing that sounds like monster the quit whirring newer engines more liking apprec any advice thanks
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes mjs well there are just many courses here and elsewhere that not mjs teach the technique yet seem rather successful sure you don miss what you never had those poor sods don know what they missing guess ignorance bliss mike bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning suzibago leavitt umd edu little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	story lynn pacesetter com lynn hall writes allowed yes there god open containers the street was the signs the bars yeah right the cops hand for the couple thousand bikers block main street were not citing anyone the street was filled with empty cans least feet deep the gutter the crowd was raisin hell tittie shows everywhere can you say party and still wonder why they stereotype erc
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks being mere female have often found can really take the big offensive line with asshole car drivers found more subtle and nastly ooops mean nasty way get back them somebody cuts you just wait till they have pulled out past you and then gently lean over and bend their aerial every time have done that has eventually snapped off near the base which tends undetected for while and bummer replace gillian
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post mjs sys uea mike sixsmith writes mjs all saying that you don even need tell people mjs the technique countersteering cos they will intuitively the first mjs time they try round corner karr cornell edu david karr writes karr are you sure remember that you can get around corners without karr countersteering fact experienced rider course instructors karr claimed that they could get behind new rider and make the bike karr turn whichever side they wanted just shifting their weight karr around even when the operator was trying turn the opposite karr direction admit never actually seen this experienced this back when was young and more foolish first bike used track extremely true going down the highway would set the throttle tension screw enough hold the gas steady slide back the seat and lean against the backrest riding without any hands needed turn shift weight into the turn and and behold the bike would turn sans touching the bars granted wouldn turn very fast but proves that you can turn bike without countersteering least not terms the input the bar normally associated with countersteering said know many people who think all you lean and any input they giving the bar totally unconscious whereas that may sufficient get you down the road under normal circumstances possibly for years stretch can think anybody who argue that this preferable properly knowing how manipulate the bar turn regardless what you want call except maybe for sixsmith bill bill leavitt cbx white lightning suzibago leavitt umd edu little honda lone star sick leave dod ama icoa nia impala convertible the incredible hulk others hmmm thought bore and stroke was the technique michael bain
rec.motorcycles	insurance discount hola amigos quiero need answer pressing question now own two bikes and would love keep them both one capable and smooth street bike low and lightweight with wide power and great brakes the other beemer kind rough for the city but great the long road and backroad good start stable but don think going work unfortunately insurance going pluck the short hairs unless some insurance agent offers multi vehicle discount they this all the time for cars assuming that you only capable driving one the things time don think ever manage straddle both bikes and ride them tandem down the street turn left accelerate the zephyr turn right accelerate the beemer does anybody know agency that makes use this simple fact discount your rates state farm doesn the way moving the bay area insuring the bikes there and registering them ease the shock can somebody guesstimate the cost insuring and here tucson they only cost full and liability only for the two per annum muchas gracias enrique
rec.motorcycles	need advice for riding with someone pillion article dsc well rwert well bob wert writes need some advice having someone ride pillion with ninja this will the the first time taken anyone for extended ride read farther than around the block riding some twisty fairly bumpy roads the mines road hamilton loop for you bay areans communication work out your own system just slow down and holler back every once while reasonable speeds even under muffled magna can hear each other only above say mph that you can really communicate balance new passengers are real pain because you never know how they going react steering some people catch immediately and lean with others are completely skittish about the leaning thing and keep their bodies perpendicular the horizon this pain while turning but manageable the worst are the passengers who stay perpendicular the horizon then remember the middle turn and whip around until they the correct position this always screws the line picked out here personal checklist things tell passengers attire helmet long pants boots heavy shoes jacket keep feet pegs all times unless say otherwise not get off unless say you can had people try dismount traffic just pulling parking space muffler gets hot nuff said get good traction not going fall over many first time riders are surprised how tightly you can turn turn dynamics sit that you feel like you sitting upright and going straight trust your butt not your eyes you confused close your eyes for couple turns get the feel just hug tight please sudden moves shift your weight desired but gradual can compensate your faceplate yours open close desired trust essential trust the driver the right thing driven many miles this thing and know how operate enjoy the ride this important stress for example one first time passwngers seemed watch the speedo like hawk drove her the beach down and whever topped mph she holler slow down scared humored her for while then simply covered the speedometer with the spare piece duct tape keep stuck the top the cluster problem solved she watched the scenery instead the instruments and had much better time based her experience driving lincoln continental she was unwilling trust ability choose safe speed for the bike usually point out the controls engine transmission brakes tires etc and discuss motorcycle physics bit too for first timers helps calm their nerves and gives the bike chance warm watch out for gravel the hamilton road there were lots little mudslides after the last big rain now many the blind corners will nicely covered with carpet little round nearly invisible stones doesn help build trust when you slide out blind corner the first trip good luck have fun don drink soap dilute dilute
rec.motorcycles	ain for article speedy engr latech edu speedy engr latech edu speedy mercer writes confused like that surprise someone asked for copy the faq via mail not the kotfaq was wondering what the proper responce our panel judges has deliberated the question and the answer send the requester one copy and then gang faq yourself blaine gardner evans sutherland bgardner dsd com
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well few you aptly put get off the road jerk don wanna hear your whining fine fuck off too well still looks like you got attitude problem muttonhead you should take the comments with more sensitivity still despise most people who belittle drinking and driving since first girlfriend was killed such asshole back learn take the verbal abuse you can take the flames and you can use your brains stay out the newsgroup the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca seca suzuki seca turbo sabre gts can afford the mbeaving bnr this company has idea what talking about
rec.motorcycles	first bike anyone serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle and put bluntly sucks really would like some advice what would good starter bike for know one thing however need make first bike good one because buying second any time soon out the question specifically interested racing bikes cbr gsx know that this may sound kind crazy considering that never had bike before but responsible fast learner and love please give any advice that you think would help search including places look even specific bikes that you want sell thanks jamie belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	first bike anyone serious motorcycle enthusiast without motorcycle and put bluntly sucks really would like some advice what would good starter bike for know one thing however need make first bike good one because buying second any time soon out the question specifically interested racing bikes cbr gsx know that this may sound kind crazy considering that never had bike before but responsible fast learner and love please give any advice that you think would help search including places look even specific bikes that you want sell thanks jamie belliveau jbc andrew cmu edu
rec.motorcycles	comments honda interceptor jearls tekig pen tek com jeffrey david earls writes article apr skyfox howp skyfox writes considering the purchase honda interceptor for cdn about don know the mileage this bike but from the picture the trader magazine looks good shape can anybody enlighten whether this good purchase oog hate jump this type thread but pass the big top heavy and carries lots expensive parts what said most friends refer them ground magnets one jeff earls jearls tekig pen tek com dod kottg kotspt wmtc ama millennium falcon squid factor klr thumpy hit the button chewie han solo there ain nothin like mph sweeper the idaho rockies dean woodward you want step into world dean fringe rain com socio psychotic state bliss virago guns roses world dod
rec.motorcycles	dogs article apr acs ucalgary parr acs ucalgary charles parr writes sheesh even trained attack dog match for human have all the advantages agree with this after all when you grab under his chin and are careful keep your hands away from his twisting head what going tailwag you death even had one occasion where was unexpectedly jumped german shepherd and grabbed his upper jaw one hand and his lower jaw the other now holding his mouth open way strong enough clamp down and can nothing however all this macho shit aside the fact that when you are riding bike and dog arrowing intercept may unwise for you stop and try deal with the dog for the simple fact that might through your leathers and working your jeans before you can dismount and deal with properly all means you kick the dog otherwise get its attention stop and stay there you kick the dog and ride away that victory for the dog drove you out its territory not even qualified victory victory you kick and stop and sit there dogs will say shit this guy serious and back off now you have established your dominance over the dog and probably will not bother you again llamas however are different story you stop near llama will just hop and insist ride and that you lucky doesn like you barf you off the bike and steal curtis jackson cjackson adobe com hawk maxim dod kotb black lab mix studley doright collie golden george there justification for taking away individuals freedom the guise public safety thomas jefferson
rec.motorcycles	question about helmets the other side the fence owned bieffe off road helmet took what would consider minor fall and had visible damage the shell yes the helmet did its job but the damage impact ratio was scary own bell moto now have taken impacts order twice the bieffe impact this frequently and don even have scratch after two seasons recommendation buy high quality gear ymmv mark
rec.motorcycles	women jackets was must daemon child article bethdc juzw netcom com bethd netcom com beth dixon writes article apr mnemosyne edu jhensley nyx edu john hensley writes beth dixon bethd netcom com wrote new duc doesn have back carrying lipstick jacket pocket life hard wife looking for jacket and most the men styles she tried don fit too well they fit the shoulders and arms they too tight across the chest something like that anyone have any suggestions assuming that the pilot addition its handy storage facilities pretty decent fit there any company that makes reasonable line women motorcycling stuff more importantly does anyone boulder denver know shop that bothers carrying any was very lucky found jacket liked that actually fits makes the pilot jackets mine very similar style made just leather san jose bought one the last two they ever made finding decent womens motorcycling gear not easy there lot stuff out there that fringed everywhere made fashion leather made fit men etc don know shop your area there are some women rider friendly places the san francisco san jose area but don recommend buying clothing mail order too hard tell fit bates custom makes leathers you might want call them they and get cost estimate for the type jacket your wife interested large manufacturers like bmw and sell women lines clothing decent quality but fit iffy while ago noemi and lisa sieverts were talking about starting business doing just this sort thing don know what they finally decided beth seems that johns collins used carry some honest god womens garb beth the one true beth dixon bethd netcom com yamaha excitable girl dod yamaha spike the garage rat fssnoc ducati ama ducati monza restoration project kqspt can keep handle anything just this side deranged top
rec.motorcycles	max handling request article apr newbridge com bradw newbridge com brad warkentin writes zero very fast very quickly lastest rumor the rear wheel handles like dream straight line and then gets tad upset according review cycle world cornering well you can have everything sure you can have everything everything you mean fast straight line performance and handling present day liter sport bikes have more horsepower and have faster and mile times than the max plus they corner just bit better seriously handling probably good the big standards the early but not compareable whats state the art these days very true randy davis email randy megatek com pilot uunet ucsd megatek randy dod but this one goes eleven nigel tufnel spinal tap
rec.motorcycles	solar battery chargers any good article apr csd newshost stanford edu robert xenon stanf ord edu robert kennedy writes seen solar battery boosters and they seem come without any guarantee the other hand heard that some people use them with success although have yet communicate directly with such person have you tried one what was your experience how did you use occasional charging long term leave for weeks etc robert kennedy have cheap solar charger that keep car purchased via some mail order catalog when the year old battery oldsmobile would run down during summer when was riding bike more than driving car knowing selling the car year purchased the charger believe not the thing worked the battery held charge and energetically started the car many times after weeks just sitting eventually had purchase new battery anyway because the winter sun wasn strong enough due its low angle think paid for the charger there are more powerful more expensive ones but purchased the cheapest one could find never used the bike because have charger and keep plugged all the time the bike garaged arnie skurow
rec.motorcycles	what with cats and dogs article mqinn emory mathcs emory edu gnome org writes james bessette jimbes cbnewsj att com wrote article hplsla com kens hplsla com ken snyder writes ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also cam chain that case why they chase goldwings tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	ggrrrrrr cages double parking motorc qjmf sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes article castle wbg festival geake writes apartment complex where used live tried this only they put the thing over the driver window they couldn miss friend damned near wrecked the way home one night her vision blocked the sticker suggested the manager the enormous liability they careful about putting stickers cages windows hmmm the lddc security guards over here docklands only place parking stickers the drivers side windows but reflection that could still cause accident suppose because people aren litigious over here the states stephen stephen dunne mag dod sdun isma demon international securities market association speak for thats all voice fax pgp public key available are not affiliated any other demon site
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article csundh ursa csundh ursa calvin edu charles sundheim writes tale bike eating devil dog deleted moral not really sure but more and more believe that bikers ought allowed carry handguns come louisiana where legal carry concealed weapons bike dod technician speed not student stolen taglines god real unless declared integer came saw deleted all your files black holes are where god dividing zero the world will end minutes please log out earth full please delete anyone you can
rec.motorcycles	neck reining was countersteering faq please post article qmetg sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher writes basically there are two ways steer horse plow rein and neck rein plow reining steers him keeping the reins separate and you pull the direction you wish neck reining steers horse holding the reins together one hand and pulling against the horse neck the direction you wish when training plow steering horse neck rein one technique cross the reins under his necks thus when neck reining the left the right rein pulls against the right side the neck but the left side the bit which the horse used from his plow reining days learned when riding bareback kid palm reign just pushing the right side the horse neck with your right palm turn left lot like countersteering that came pretty easy the transition motorcycles took while however break habit kicking the rear fender with heels faster steve steve moseley moseley washington edu microbiology phone university washington fax seattle
rec.motorcycles	changing sprocket ratios honda article btb uky edu cbrooks uky edu clayton brooks writes any honda gurus know can replace the the front sprocket honda with slightly larger one see this being preferable reducing the size the rear one that twin cam right there steel guard right next the sprocket keep broken chain from punching hole the engine cases and needed there probably not enough room fit bigger sprocket inclined take two teeth off the rear for ratio change rather than adding one the front for about you raise the overall gear ratio too much you impair the bike rideability because the gears will far enough apart that there will only one gear that provides adequate response any given speed honda don have the widest power bands chuck karish karish mindcraft com karish pangea stanford edu
rec.motorcycles	bike sold over net miles away previous article essbaum rchland vnet ibm com alexander essbaum says article hplsla com kens hplsla com ken snyder writes any other bikes sold long distances out there love hear about bought vfr from guy san jose via the net that miles according odometer mark andy living pittsburgh bought his from dude massachusetts was connecticut sold bike via the net young lady who lived salt lake city live near lost angeles turned out had mutual aquaintances ucla well bowers dod alfa ducati hobie kottke blad iaido nasa well goodness sakes don you know that girls can play guitar mary chapin carpenter
rec.motorcycles	protective gear second the boots oil spots from cars are particularly slippery when parking the bikes and good boots help here well squid
rec.motorcycles	changing sprocket ratios honda article cellar org craig cellar org saint craig wrote can done contact chaparell cycle supply hey they even had sprockets for which hard find accesssories for second that they even had sprockets for very hard find john stafford minnesota state university winona all standard disclaimers apply
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this sender reply harmons gyro tek com harmon sommer distribution organization usr ens etc organization keywords new bmw owner was thinking about signing for the moa but right now beginning look suspiciously like throwing money down rathole let current membership lapse when for renewal case that not for another years appreciate any hints what will keep the organization business that long and preferably longer course and worth being part become activist campaign for insurance program for universal driver rider training before licensing pick topic dear your heart and get the organization act barnacles don move ships
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post sender reply harmons gyro tek com harmon sommer distribution organization usr ens etc organization keywords hey how you explain the fact that you pull horse reins left left confusing two threads here unless they have been taught neck rein then the left rein brought bear the left side horse neck right equestrian counter steering
rec.motorcycles	for sale selling sportster make room for new flhtcu this scoot excellent condition and has never been wrecked abused always garaged sportster standard blue factory conversion kit less than miles branch ported and polished big valve heads screamin eagle carb screamin eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers tachometer new metzeler tires front and rear progressive front fork springs harley king and queen seat and sissy bar everything chromed ring chain fork brace oil cooler and thermostat new die hard battery bike cover price phone melbourne florida
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points well looks like cked for insurance had dwi and for the beemer rec vehicle cost almost bucks insure year now what could probably just sell the bike and return dod number andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	countersteering faq please post article qjn sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article hydro jlevine hydro jody levine writes article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes single track snow vehicles with front skis and snow skis attached skiers legs deform the surface the snow creating their own bank ice skates alter the phase the ice and also carve out their own tracks what they have bugger all with motorcycles hence any apparent similarity handling characteristics may may not analagous its underlying physics that behind motorcycle handling characteristics one last attempt take different tack all seem agreement that there are two explanations for why one can use the handlebars lean moving motorcycle the question one the effect dominant and which one the idea would design experiment which would seaprate the two characteristics and see which effect produces similar result the one with which those who have bikes are familiar let look the one that far has sparked controversy its own gyroscopic precession examine this alone would have get rid the contact patch effect not allowing the contact patches transmit any force the wheels and steering mechanism would have remain and attached vehicle with about the same weight bike through suspension that the wheels transmit forces the bike the same way similar bikes experiment would ride bike along dry road get moving and get the wheels spinning then change surfaces something that won transmit forces through the contact patches and try steering manoeuvre see the bike leans probably would since some know how easy fall down ice but wouldn get good idea how well what feels like because without the contact patches can turn maybe there better way besides even ice doesn get rid the contact patch forces altogether have find really frictionless surface you have try again with the wheels locked really know was the rotation that did looking the contact patch effect only however fairly simple now have find vehicle that gets the about the same magnitude and direction cantact patch forces motorcycle and transmits them about the same way the vehicle but without rotating wheels how gets the contact patch forces irrelevant just looking for something that has contact patches that can straight and not sideways and skis skates would fine don know any snow ski skate bikes but here have the suzuki wetbike that arranged like motorcycle but has fat water skis where there should wheels think the propellor front the rear ski something like that but could try coast get rid most its effect now admit that this second hand info although love try one these but the review the local cycle rag and guy bike shop that sells them both say that this machine handles very much like motorcycle that you countersteer turn have contact patches that transmit similar forces bike similar suspension arrangement and gyroscopes but have countersteering conclusion you don need gyroscopes countersteer vehicles that have motorcycle like contact patch arrangements still don know what real effect the gyroscopes have when they there but from observations how handlebar angle force etc relate steering general willing bet that they not the dominant factor countersteering you don like this conclusion then don accept but motorcycle behaviour consistent with someone can prove otherwise ahead bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes have the one say don stupid leave your helmet the seat where can fall down and boom true enough put the ground free spooge directly head otherwise that kind fall what the helmet designed protect against not exactly the helmet has lot less energy your head isn and there lump inside compress the liner against the shell drop off the seat enough crack the shell doubt but you can always send inspected bike like jody levine dod got you can you jody levine hydro ride toronto ontario canada
rec.motorcycles	how act front traffic jerks article nielsmm nanna imv aau nielsmm imv aau niels mikkel michelsen writes the other day was raining cats and dogs therefor was going only the speed limit nothing more bike this guy his bmw was driving meters behind for meters and the next red light calmly put the bike its leg walked back this car rolled down the window and told him was total idiot and the reason why did the right thing well used get mad and either try communicate anger jerks uhm educate them how improve their manners traffic now just try get them off tail heavy traffic slow down bit mostly have more buffer zone front balance the minimal buffer behind but also often find that the jerk behind will notice traffic moving faster other lanes switch into one them and pass which fine because then can keep better eye the jerk from behind while looking ahead rather than from front while splitting attention between ahead and the mirrors traffic heavy that there way for the jerk pass might pull over look for street number name still ignoring the jerk just get the jerk off tail this all sounds well wimpy denizenly pessimistic perhaps for any psych types passive aggressive consider that prefer get adrenaline jollies from riding rather than from yelling jerks ride can improve whole day while yelling jerk likely for ruin ride day with own anger the worst case yelling the jerk could ruin life since even tiny jerk cage behind better armed with the cage than bike the other hand you might try subtly arranging the last vehicle legally cross one more intersections leaving the jerk waiting for cross traffic and thus off your tail crossing illegally hopefully front the waiting police like almost everything here your choices and mileage will vary denis mckeon galway chtm eece unm edu
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this article shaman tek com harmons tek com harmon sommer writes new bmw owner was thinking about signing for the moa but let current membership lapse when for renewal hints what will keep the organization business that long become activist campaign for insurance program for universal driver rider training before licensing pick topic dear your heart and get the organization act barnacles don move ships you obviously not referring any the three above quoted individuals because barnacles don each send the crew the ship keep moving get the organization act easy say but says little about what one really can and should what the organization actually will largely determined the president and directors far can see that what makes important vote election officers does strike that the bmwmoa lot less politically active the state and national arenas not infighting than other organizations should change this just join the other groups that already are politics incidentally the political hazards motorcycle riders the the moment don compare the problems some other groups like gun owners just try take target pistol shooting the northeast california and bet you wish you only had worry about wearing helmet why does every thread rec moto eventually come around guns david karr karr cornell edu
rec.motorcycles	looking for women motorcycle helmet looking buy used motorcycle helmet interested full face shield but not necessarily helmet with the piece around the chin please email directly janice kendall kendall adobe com decwrl sun adobe kendall onward thru the fog oat willie
rec.motorcycles	max handling request article apr ntuvax ntu ntuvax ntu writes hello there ican anyone who has handson experience riding the yamaha max pls kindly comment its handling from cycle world magazine who usually never says anything bad about any motorcycle the max certainly has motor but there are some things short short chassis loves straight lines aimed one nicely stable but not overfond corners forced into one protests shaking its head chattering its front tire grinding its footpegs and generally making known its preference for straight pavement bumps doesn like them either its fork isn too bad though soft enough that can bottomed under hard braking the shocks though which work that short travel shaft drive swingarm are firm the point harshness dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty apparently that last post was little hasy since called around more places and got quotes for less than and liability only course plus one palced will give for car liab the bike for only total which ain bad all won with the first place called that fer sure andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	timing could some kind soul tell the advance timing revs for special bought canada thanks
rec.motorcycles	for sale selling sportster make room for new flhtcu this scoot excellent condition and has never been wrecked abused always garaged sportster standard blue factory conversion kit less than miles branch ported and polished big valve heads screamin eagle carb screamin eagle cam adjustable pushrods harley performance mufflers tachometer new metzeler tires front and rear progressive front fork springs harley king and queen seat and sissy bar everything chromed ring chain fork brace oil cooler and thermostat new die hard battery bike cover price phone melbourne florida
rec.motorcycles	stolen aarghhhh article jpolito apr sysgem encore com jpolito sysgem encore com jonathan polito writes article apr microunity com ericm microunity com eric murray writes watch out often when some scumbag steals the cover that means that they were are looking steal the bike case had faded cover stolen off bmw that was stashed apartment carport and not visible from the street they evidently decided the beemer wasn worth stealing but did try the next night steal honda hurricane parked the next apartment building neighbor heard them wheeling out and called the cops know this just setting myself but this actually one the things that really good about bmw bikes from all accounts heard practically one steals bmws probably similar for moto guzzis and other relative exotics since there isn large demand for parts and the bike would much easier track down seems that the most stolen bikes are harleys and jap sport bikes well say you mostly right but for different reasons btw couple years ago the most stolen bikes orange county and were gsx and ninjas probably the biggest reason bmws aren ripped off that most people who buy bmws will only deal with the actual bmw dealer mail order types most these can have their inventory checked fairly easily law enforcement types and their mark usually sufficient keep them honest about acquiring parts for harleys and rice rockets you got different situations there huge aftermarket harley parts bike can parted out fairly easily ditto the non sport japanese bikes but the prices the parts for these are not high comparatively for the rockets anytime bike goes down the plastic usually cracked and expensive replace fairly easy then for disreputable shop take fairing from stolen bike slap bike for repair repaint and make tidy profit the other parts more traceable can used discarded they are too traceable mike disclaimer these opiini damn exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zzzzzz man help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop
rec.motorcycles	passenger helmet sizing article sixgun east sun com egreen east sun com writes article mavenry altcit eskimo com maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer writes the question for the day passenger helmets you don know for certain who gonna ride with you like say you meet them church meeting yeah that the ticket what are some guidelines should just pick another shoei size have backup helmet should maybe get inexpensive one smaller size accomodate likely passenger your primary concern protecting the passenger the event crash have him her fitted for helmet that their size your primary concern complying with stupid helmet laws carry real big spare you can put big small head big helmet but not small one while shopping for passenger helmet noticed that many cases the external dimensions the helmets were the same from through the difference was the amount inside padding solution was buy large helmet and construct removable liner from sheet closed cell foam and some satin glued the inside surface the result reasonably snug fit smallest headed pillion with the liner and comfortable fit largest headed pillion with the liner out everyone else gets linered not best fit michael robinson uucp ucbvax cogsci robinson internet robinson cogsci berkeley edu
rec.motorcycles	bmw moa members read this bill ranck writes new bmw owner was thinking about signing for the moa but right now beginning look suspiciously like throwing money down rathole when you guys sort this out let know bill ranck bill ranck edu computing center virginia polytchnic inst state univ blacksburg ditto for tim seiss
rec.motorcycles	used bikes east west coasts hpcc rec motorcycles groverc gold gvg tek com grover cleveland apr shop for your bike sacramento the bay area prices are always much higher than elsewhere the state affirmative check sacramento bee fresno bee modesto stockton bakersfield and other newspapers for prices motos the classifieds large main public library ought have number out town papers graeme harrison hewlett packard communications components division trimble san jose gharriso hpcc corp com dod
rec.motorcycles	paint jobs the can anyone recommend good place for reasonably priced bike paint jobs preferably but not essentially the london area thanks lisa rowlands alex technologies ltd house uxbridge road tel ealing fax london email lisa alex com
rec.motorcycles	happy easter nick pettefar npet bnr wrote kevinh the tue apr gmt wibbled jonathan quist bemoaned yes minor blasphemy that companies would the likes jaguar sob lotus outright sacrilege for have non british ownership fundamental thing lotus looks set for management buyout weren happy that the elan was late and too pricey they can write off the elan development costs the may able sell them for sensible price think there legal clause the name regardless who owns must british company owner can sell the company but not the name kevinh hasler ascom don believe that have anything with seperate company from the aero engine company vickers who own rolls royce cars and yes kevin posts morgan use sliding pillar front suspension bike long bleeding last when will that pettefar bloke get mail address can bung him the ogri list dave david edmondson davide dcs qmw queen mary westfield college dod guzzi mans this means the end the horse drawn zeppelin
rec.motorcycles	observation helmets maven mavenry altcit eskimo com norman hamer wrote grf dropped shoei off the seat bike while trying rock onto centerstand chipped the heck out the paint gravity never let you down lesson put your helmet the ground your head you put the ground isn gonna fall down the ground you put your head well tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	live free but quietly die mcguire utexas edu tommy marcus mcguire wrote egreen east sun com writes tjohnson tazmanian prime com tod johnson writes sure there are horns but hand already the throttle should get into how many feet bike going mph goes seconds how long would take push horn button the answer feet try something like feet edgetacalculator right rom numbers easy remember mph sec tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	more moa stuff like the article world std com artc world std com art campbell wrote got hotly contested bmwoa election and some inept leadership question the history the bmw organization that lead the formation the bmwra was there something going the years ago that precipitated the formation two competing owner groups yep both were started nominally simultaneously splitsville from the start sources are correct one guy was involved the start both groups true tom coradeschi tcora pica army mil usenet like herd performing elephants with diarrhea massive difficult redirect awe inspiring entertaining and source mind boggling amounts excrement when you least expect gene spafford
rec.motorcycles	bikes and contacts the best thing get full face even cheap brain bucket didn think full face was important until took gnarly spill and ended sliding feet face plus with the visor down you also have worries about your contacts
rec.motorcycles	looking for movies bikes there also billy jack the wild one smokey and the bandit where jerry reed runs his truck over motorcycle gangs bikes and video tape documentary the hell angels found rental store once
rec.motorcycles	wanted advice for new cylist the angel levine writes exactly dangerous looks did you have anyone particular mind there jody
rec.motorcycles	countersteering know not know what the question lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes there has been running thread the need understand countersteering have seen lot opinion but not much has any basis fact study the bottom line the understanding and ability swerve was essentially absent among the accident involved riders the hurt study the average rider does not identify that countersteering alone provides the primary input effect motorcycle lean themselves even after many years practice would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt study make any distinction between ability swerve and failure swerve most the accidents and near accidents that seen riders will almost always stand the brakes hard they dare simply because the instinct brake the face danger strong that over rides everything else hard braking and swerving tend mutually exclusive manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions which one generally preferable
rec.motorcycles	looking for women motorcycle helmet lisa alex com lisa rowlands writes janice don know being unduly cautious but wouldn buy used helmet not for normal road use anyway you never really know what happened them their past life have fun lisa rowlands second that saw list somewhere all the stuff that was unwise buy secondhand stuff like parachutes toilet paper condoms and motorcycle helmets seriously though why take the risk you are extremely unlikely get good fitting secondhand helmet cos life just doesn work like that and lisa says you never know where been before
rec.motorcycles	with flames out the exhaust article quw btq cso uiuc edu mikeh cso uiuc edu mike hollyman says have custom that just replaced the cylinder head gasket now when put back together again wouldn idle all was only running cylinders and would backfire and spit flames out the exhaust the right side the exhaust mac bought new plugs today and runs very rough and still won idle quite sure the fine tune knobs the carbs are messed checked the timing was fine advanced little and that didn help assume the carbs need synched can buy kit and this myself what kit the best for the price any other suggestions thanks advance mike hollyman sounds like you got the cam timing off
rec.motorcycles	antifreeze coolant article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna says for those you with motorcycles the liquid cooled persuasion what brand coolant you use and why looking for aluminum safe coolant preferably phosphate free and preferably cheaper than gallon can you believe the kaw dealer wants quart for the official blessed holy kawasaki coolant way paying that usury thanks chris behanna dod fxwg wide glide jubilee red lady behanna syl nec com baby bike disclaimer now why would nec needs name agree with any this anyway was raised pack wild corn dogs thought that all coolants were aluminum safe any more but would like know more since must tear down kawasaki again must add
rec.motorcycles	your opinion and what means infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes since the occurance paid many dollars renumerance taken the drunk class and yes listened all the self righteous assholes like yourself that think your above the rest the world because you never had your own little suaree the devil made
rec.motorcycles	countersteering know not know what the question wed apr gmt mjs sys uea mike sixsmith said mike lotto husc harvard edu jerry lotto writes the understanding and ability swerve was essentially absent among the accident involved riders the hurt study mike would agree entirely with these three paragraphs but did the hurt mike study make any distinction between ability swerve and failure mike swerve yes was specifically the ability understanding the technique which was absent have made lot progress between rider education and responsibility over the last ten twenty years but still amazed anytime teach erc how many people many year riding experience discover countersteering for cornering swerving mike everything else hard braking and swerving tend mutually exclusive mike manouvres did hurt draw any conclusions which one generally mike preferable the specific recommandation cited the hurt study was that formal street strategy like sipde for example was the most important component any rider education curriculum the specific skills emergency braking cornering and swerving must taught and practiced well but more significant was that rider did nothing confronted with potential accident and another third collided fell over result rider error the choice specific maneuver much less significant the outcome than early detection and the proper execution any effective countermeasure jerry lotto lotto lhasa harvard edu msfci hogssc bcso ama dod chemistry dept harvard univ harley and ride want
rec.motorcycles	for johs dhhalden last pete young the tue apr gmt wibbled nick pettefar npet bnr wrote tsk tsk tsk another newbie bites the dust they learn newbie sorry disappoint you but far the internet goes was baghdad while you were still your dads bag this bit funny most the people who made this group interesting years ago are longer around and only have time make random sweep once week hence missed most this thread terribly sorry based your previous postings apparently devoid humour sarcasm wit the apparent capacity walk and chew gum the same time assumed you were serious mea culpa know know subtlety sort you know subtle isn still nice see that bnr are doing well that they can afford overpay some contractors sit and read news all day that foreign firms for you and touchy newbie that what the matter too much starch the undies nick the considerate biker dod concise oxford none gum chewer lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	fortune guzzler barred from bars charles parr the tue apr gmt wibbled article apr bnr npet bnr nick pettefar writes satan rode bike would you stop help him course riders have stick together you know besides stop for satan the way rides vincent does god jesus rides the angels get ariels and the demons all ride matchless know because they talk through the fillings teeth regards charles dod within the span the last few weeks have heard elements separate threads which that they have been conjoined time struck together form new chord within hollow and echoing gourd unknown net person think that the vincent the wrong sort bike for satan ride honda have just brought out the look bike magazine which looks evil that satan would not hesitate ride hole dms levi and black bomber jacket not sure about the helmet know one those darth vader ones there you satan anybody seen him lately just cruisin god would ride vincent white lightning with rightous injection wear one piece leather suit with matching boots helmet and gloves nick the righteous biker dod concise oxford new non leaky gearbox lud nick pettefar contractor large teneo tuus intervallum cuurrently incarcerated bnr npet bnr bmw kay maidenhead the united kingdom pres pbwasoh
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies various posts about shafties can wheelies mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground good point john buddy mine told that same thing when had bmw dumped the clutch rpm hey ito nly revved and you know what was right folks the shaft doesn have diddleysquatpoop with can get the front wheel off the ground ferchrissake bill wrs gozer com bill slack dod but her tears were shed vain and her every word was lost the rumble his engine and the smoke from his exhaust
rec.motorcycles	shaft drives and wheelies article dpa news ysu edu yfn ysu edu john daker says previous article xlyx vax cit cornell edu says mike terry asks possible wheelie motorcycle with shaft drive mike imposible due the shaft effect the centripital effects the rotating shaft counteract any tendency for the front wheel lift off the ground dod darkman well last two motorcycles have been shaft driven and they will wheelie the rear gear does climb the ring gear and lift the rear which gives odd feel but still wheelies
rec.motorcycles	for sale zephyr boys and girls just bought beemer and realized abruptly that grad student first sold truck yesterday but need sell zephyr too can sell this month great insurance and tags both run out couple weeks otherwise tag and insure and see what happens very sweet bike miles almost all highway last summer plus some great rides between here and the border purchased new exactly one year ago apr model has good fairing and luggage rack red very clean perfect maintenance bullshit spare any further details other than say want keep and somebody will fit like charm not bike for big people but not small bike standard upright positioning and good looking smooth power great brakes good karma erik dod asphaug hindmost lpl arizona edu kawi zephyr erik asphaug bmw
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack eagerly await comment the ice princess next door makes habit flooring her cage out the driveway when she sees coming probably only hits mph made the mistake waving neighbor she has some sort grudge now was riding downhill mph local backroad when brown dobie came flashing through the brush well over mph intercept course with front wheel the dog had started out the top the hill when heard and still had lead when hit the road the dog was approaching from left and was running full tilt get bike the other side the road before went rover was looking back calculate the final trajectory too bad didn notice the car approaching mph from the other direction got closeup view the our poor canine friend noggin careening off the front bumper smacking the asphalt and getting runover the front tire managed pretty good yelp just before impact peripheral imminent doom guess the driver didn see they probably would have swerved into lane the squeegeed pup actually got and headed back home but haven seen since sniff sometimes fate sees you and smiles rick
rec.motorcycles	for sale sigh for sale reluctantly classic bike yamaha twin original miles always stored inside front end with aftermarket tapered steering head bearings racer supply rear bronze swingarm bushings tsubaki chain pirrhana fairing with headlight cutout one carrera racing seat superbike bars velo stacks twin carbs also have original seat tank original cherry white paint with scratches dents dings needs new exhaust original finally rusted through and was discarded was process making kenney roberts replica cafe racer when graduate school marriage child precluded further effort wife would love unload does need assembly but think everything there also throw manuals receipts and collection society newsletters and relevant mag articles great fun classic bike with over invested will consider reasonable offers timothy shickley director neurourology departments urology and anatomy cell biology temple university school medicine north broad philadelphia voice data voice fax internet shickley temple edu bitnet shickley templevm bitnet icbm
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article uupcb compdyn questor org ryan cousineau compdyn questor org ryan cousineau writes interestingly the one thing that never happened was that the bike never moved off course unfortunately one the negative impaired the above sentence says believe that the bike did move off course course michael michael nelson cbr internet nelson seahunt imat com dod
rec.motorcycles	cobra locks steve bunis southwest chicago doc webrider central sun com wrote was posting alt locksmithing about the best methods for securing motorcycle got several responses referring the cobra lock described below has anyone come across store carrying this lock the chicago area any other feedback from someone who has used this what about the new yamaha cyclelok from the photo motorcyclist looks the same hardened steel kryptonite lock except folds five places seems extend out far enough lock the rear tire the tube parking sign similar anyone had any experience with them how easy attack the lock the jointed sections tony
rec.motorcycles	happy easter article apr isc com jeq lachman com jonathan quist writes rolls royce owned non british firm gods that would the end civilization know why not ford owns aston martin and jaguar general motors owns lotus and vauxhall rover only owned honda dave tharp dod you can wear out davet interceptor cds tek com mra indian scout indian chief ahrma its brother the chief ama they built like rocks velorex nsu max take the knocks bmw compulsive the harleys that employer has idea joiner give you grief
rec.motorcycles	bike advice have kawasaki mint condition and starts the first kick every time have outgrown the bike and considering selling was told should ask around does that sound right should higher lower also looking for used how much have spend and what year should look for get bike without paying arm and leg thanks for the help rob fusi rwf lehigh edu
rec.motorcycles	bmwmoa controversy article apr esac uucp prahren esac uucp peter ahrens writes article rider uucp joe rider cactus org writes vech msstate edu craig vechorik writes good boys that have been there too long while agree with you that the current board garbage voting you would simply trading one form trash for another the opponents your selections get equal time joe why don you post what you really think there are any rational bmwmoa folks left out there may the rest please have brief summary the current state affairs your esteemed organization together with historical outline how you got the above contretemps now you know why just dod member like bikes and clubs but the politics and other llsh real turn off tuba irwin honk therefore computrac richardson irwin cmptrc lonestar org dod
rec.motorcycles	test test
rec.motorcycles	bat helmet cbd from christopher bradley devlin andrew cmu edu cbd but nothing compared the ahem unique helmet cbd design seen the new animated series has huge opening for his cbd mouth topped the world tiniest eyeslits above the enormous mouth cbd opening batman helmet probably cuts you down about degrees cbd unrestricted vision with helmet like this might just better cbd off with the leather cap mask thingy cbd mon batman doesn need see batman cbd did you notice only takes the bike out the snow rain let see what have the batdude far has weird helmet drags his knee corners thanks cookson but how does hidden bat pucks and only takes the bike out the snow rain also lets robin ride think could have used bat mom would have made getting license lot easier there trend here stylish helmet stylish knee dragging rides only stylish cartoon precipitation hmm could that dealing with veritable airborne mammalian poseur dare say bat squid huh bat squid all adds now let make the man honorary dod dude all needs dod sticker actually anyone have address for batman current artists both comic book and animated series write and ask batman would like become honorary denizen yeah special the kotl there precedent for inducting imaginary member with imaginary motorcycle having seen the computers the bat cave think can safely assume that also has imaginary internet access ryan cousinetc yamaha vision black pig inverness live ride kotrb ajs king rat work dod squid could afford the bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver canada live slmr virtual reality check just bounced computer dynamics bbs hst vancouver canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack previous posting dog attacks must have generated some bad karma something weathered attempted dog attacks before using the approved method slow down screw dog triangulation target then take off and laugh the dog now far behind you this time didn work because didn have time riding the hill leading house encountered liver and white springer spaniel relation the springer softail the springer spagthorpe close relation the spagthorpe viking actually the dog encountered with intent harm but digress was riding near the unpainted centerline the roughly foot wide road doing between forty and sixty clicks mph for the velocity impaired the dog shot from behind bushes the left side the road impossibly high speed later learned had been accelerating from the front porch about thirty feet away heading down the very gently sloped approach the side the road saw the dog and before you could say sipde was boom took the dog the left leg and from the marks the bike leg was driven the side the bike with considerable force making permanent marks the plastic parts the bike and cracking one panel think saw the dog spin around when looked back but memory this moment hazy next turned around and picked the most likely looking house the apologetic woman explained that the dog was not seriously hurt cut mouth and hoped was not hurt either could feel the pain shin and expected cool purple welt form soon sadly has not left with tender shin and cool battle scars interestingly the one thing that never happened was that the bike never moved off course the not inconsiderable impact did not push the bike off course nor did cause put the bike out control from some gut reaction the sudden impact delayed pain may have helped here didn feel sudden sharp pain that can remember what worries about the accident this don think could have prevented except traveling much slower than was this not necessarily unreasonable suggestion for residential area but was riding around the speed limit worry about what would have happened had been car instead dog but console myself with the thought that would take truly insane bdi cager whip out blind driveway mph for that matter how many driveways are long enough for car hit mph the end eagerly await comment ryan cousinetc yamaha vision black pig inverness live ride kotrb ajs king rat work dod squid could afford the bike flame ryan cousineau compdyn questor org vancouver canada live slmr hurt dammit jim doctor right computer dynamics bbs hst vancouver canada easy access low rates friendly sysop
rec.motorcycles	what with cats and dogs article apr cbnewsj att com jimbes cbnewsj att com james bessette writes article hplsla com kens hplsla com ken snyder writes also heard from dog breeder that the chains bicycles and motorcycles produced high frequency squeaks that dogs loved chase ask the breeder why they also chase bmws also squeaky bmw riders ray shea they wound like very effective method unisql inc leah unisql ray utexas edu some days miss boon real bad dod team twinkie hawk
rec.motorcycles	got bike was wanted advice purchase article apr mit edu jburnside mit edu jamie burnside writes article apr ncsu edu jrwaters eos ncsu edu jack rogers waters writes being reletively new reader quite impressed with all the usefull info available this newsgroup would ask how get own dod number but probably too busy riding does this count yes thought about cat dod faq mailx hahahha jburnside mit edu waiting press return hey mon guys and gals chose words very carefully and even tried get faq straight don holler bohica around here even mentioning the dod without number your sig can get you soundly faqed notice however that myself did not faq the careful monk was after all waiting press return jack waters dod don fear the thief the night its the one that comes the afternoon when still asleep that worry about
rec.motorcycles	flashing anyone apr news columbia edu rdc cunixf columbia edu robert castro writes hello all bike have hazard lights both front and back turn signals flash since live and commute nyc there are number tolls one must pay route just before arriving toll booth switch the hazards thisto warn other motorists that will taking longer than the seconds make the transaction taking gloves off getting money out coin changer pocket making transaction putting gloves back takes little more time than the average cager takes make the same transaction paying the toll also notice that when this cagers tend get the message and usually another booth question this good bad thing any others tend the same just curious rob castro email rdc cunixf columbia edu live for today ltd phone for today you live dod nyc new york new york usa beleive not state once considered eliminating tolls for motor cycles based simply the fact that motos clog toll booths but then mario realized the foolishness trading few hundred year for some relief traffic congestion too bad won take that sumpreme court justice job thought might rid him forever matt dennie internet mmd wbst xerox com xerox corporation rochester usa reaching consensus group often confused with finding the right answer norman maier
rec.motorcycles	guzzi tires plus fairing question have question about tires for guzzi the tires that were when just bought are old and cracked not have owners manual for yet but the tires listed the haynes manual are front rear and pressures recommended are front and rear oddly the pressure for the same tire the listed psi instead anyone know the reason know though the pressure should run that recommended the manufacturer the new tires purchase the real question have this the old tires that are the bike are for the front metzler touring special and for the rear avon roadrunner marked each tire both are larger than that listed the haynes manual what does the owners manual recommend and was common one size for this bike also this will first motorcycle with innertubes any comments the various manufacturers inner tube qualities the above sizes are inches except for the additional mark the current rear tire what the best metric match the local bmw dealer thought the front and the back also happens very good getting close matching mail order prices thinking going with metzler laser possibly comp the front and the back both mbs variety possible the longer lasting belting system already use the both the vision and for the front and like and thought that with the shaft drive behavior and torque from the guzzi that the might give more predictable back end control and sliding behavior than might well giving much better tire milage life any comments friend told thought that bike had boranni rims which are very good but are relatively soft and have delicate sidewalls not wish mount the tires myself this first time aside from warning the shop careful any other comments should make havn looked the rim check out the make yet marked just told late yesterday and havn had chance check the rim type another note will remove the ugly but good shape anyone want vetter fairing and will run without windscreen for while but eventually would like simple rounded cafe style quarter fairing for could fork handlebar mounted any suggestions there such thing frame mounted quarter fairing the cafe style for this bike how about lower bars clip ons for would like restore the bike into good condition runner with few modern updates but while not being historically exactly accurate still have reflect relatively well representation the cafe style yes know picky that period really predates this bike just that this bike has such potential for that look edward walsh hewlett packard company edw boi com disk memory division box boise idaho vision guzzi dod edward walsh hewlett packard company edw boi com disk memory division box boise idaho vision guzzi dod
rec.motorcycles	sabbatical and future flames begin week sabbatical about minutes six wonderful weeks riding and phones email won have any way check mail setup vacation agent though can dial and get newsfeed dont ask there are any outstanding cfc such things please try compuserve address compuserve com anybody wants some weekday rides around the send mail above post here thinking about all you stuck front your terminals sheeyaahhh and monkeys might fly out butt ride safe dave sense ain common dave warner opinions unlikely shared ama hog dod employer anyone else dwarner sceng com signature file dwarner milo com compuserve com fxsts stolen
rec.motorcycles	boom dog attack article clarke bdrc com clarke bdrc com richard clarke writes final trajectory too bad didn notice the car approaching mph from the other direction got closeup view the our poor canine friend noggin careening off the front bumper smacking the asphalt and getting runover the front tire managed pretty good yelp just before impact peripheral imminent doom guess the driver didn see they probably would have swerved into lane the squeegeed pup actually got and headed back home but haven seen since same thing everyday the same dog would chase bicycle the owners thought was cute even after got the moto the stupid dog would the same thing then one day was coming home the opposite lane the fluff with teeth ran get and played momentum sharing with dodge pick the owners tried blame for driving down street when did lived wierd town the beav mike beavington bellnorthernresearch ottawa ont canada dod seca seca seca suzuki seca turbo sabre gts can afford the mbeaving bnr parking spaces don need steenkin parking spaces
rec.motorcycles	insurance and lotsa points article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes well looks like cked for insurance had dwi and for the beemer rec vehicle cost almost bucks insure year now what bikeless you drink and drive you pay smiley mike beavington mbeaving bnr opinions are own and not companies
rec.motorcycles	was little hasty article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes apparently that last post was little hasy since called around more places and got quotes for less than and liability only course plus one palced will give for car liab the bike for only total which ain bad all won with the first place called that fer sure nevertheless dwi ckin serious hope you got some brains now mike beavington mbeaving bnr these opinions are own and not companies
rec.motorcycles	bikes horses was insect impac previous article egreen east sun com green pixel cruncher says article sda usenet ins cwru edu cleveland freenet edu mike sturdevant writes the only people who train for years jump horse feet are equistrian posers who wear velvet tails and useless helmets which turns out just about everybody that serious about horses what bunch weenie fashion nerds and the helmets suck wearing shoei mountain bike helmet fuck permanently injured oops too late nah can still walk unaided fast take chances mike
rec.motorcycles	splitfires help spagthorpe diesels article djr news cso uiuc edu wcd uxa cso uiuc edu daniel warren writes earlier was reading the net about using splitfire plugs one guy was thinking about and almost everybody shot him hell well saw one think that someone said about show team that used split fires well here some additional insight and some theories about splitfire plugs and how they boost oppossed cages splitfires were originally made burn fuel more efficiently and increased power for the cages well for these guys splitfires now don know about all this and trying catch with somebody about now but splitfires should help twins more than splitfires work mainly providing more less unshrouded spark the combustion chamber engine cylinder head design can benefit from this then the splitfires will yield slight performance increase most noticeably lower rpm range torque splitfires didn diddly squat for gmc pickup but give noticeable performance boost harley sportster and best friend sportster folks know who tried them evo motors can tell any performance boost over plain plugs which interesting since the xlh and big twin evo combustion chambers are pretty much the same shape just different sizes two friends who have shovelhead harleys swear the splitfires but had shovelhead dual plug instead since they respond well enough dual plugs make the machine work and extra ignition system worth the expense plus they look really cool with spark plug each side each head neal howard xlh dod computrac inc richardson doh neal cmptrc lonestar org std disclaimer opinions are mine not computrac let learn dream gentlemen and then perhaps shall learn the truth august kekule
rec.motorcycles	definition two following that logic could you describe two down the transition period between two and coming rest after high low side otherwise sounds pretty good richard pierson vnet perhaps referring the wife and child sitting the sidecar next the one the moto anyone ever heard game called oneup onedown drinking game for all you older folx andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	rim needed article apr news columbia edu twang cunixf columbia edu tony wang writes article news duke edu infante acpub duke edu andrew infante writes article apr walter bellcore com pgoudas gomer bellcore com paul goudas writes also there law something that requires nyc keep street empty potholes greater than certain depth rather bike hahahahahaahahha whahwuhuhahuah that good one really stop can breathe bite your tongue those who actually ride nyc daily basis could not live without those potholes ruin the flavor not enough just dodge taxis buses pedistrians bicycle messengers and bdi block block basis those potholes always makes for that sudden randomness that makes all much fun besides where else can you think that allows you constantly test your panic braking shocks and dirt riding abilities all city streets you smooth asphalt canyon carvers don know what you missing was laughing about the law part driven thru soho manahattan know what you talking bout not that durham any better well maybe little bit anyway but the dot takes more money from road taxes and puts their own pockets and into the pockets the guys building the large condos that need their own roads than they back into fixing roads but hey the local paper did report this last summer and boy glad don work for the dot cause they got shat bigtime wonder who lost their jobs got any idea andy infante you can listen what everybody says but the fact remains bmw that you got get out there and the thing yourself dod joan sutherland opinions dammit have nothing with anyone else
rec.motorcycles	aerostitch piece article apr vax cit cornell edu vax cit cornell edu writes request for opinions which better one piece aerostitch two piece aerostitch like most everyone else ended getting two different sizes for the top and bottom top and the bottom for the bottom the waist far too large but the thighs fit just right the had better waist but cut off the circulation legs have large muscular thighs and didn use the thighmaster get them the jacket fits the chest slightly snug the waist and too small the arms can imagine finding one piece size that would have fit correctly even the piece has problems strange since pilot jacket fits great all over and when tried the matching pants they fit like glove well can only assume the models aero design uses design its suits are some way different from real folks also even though related convienience you look pretty damn wierd walking around with the tops and bottoms while running errands gotten some really suspicious looks and sweated lot while store wearing the whole suit since you can fit the top and bottom any motorcycle storage device yet devised except the trunk sidecar rig with the two piece unzip the pants generally leave the two pieces zipped together primarily because the pants fall down unless pull the cheesy elastic belt type band real tight stuff them one spacious bmw saddlebags the pants just fit and run errands just wearing the jacket actually know running errands just wear pilot jacket but that just far crash protection say that both suits are probably equal seems that for weather protection anything the piece provides little more because the jacket overlapping the pants inches the piece probably little less comfortable around the waist just because the extra layer stuff but maybe not have vote for the two piece despite the slightly odd fit still find the suit the most versatile piece riding clothing own wouldn long distance without ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw org decwrl vixie amber ken ken wallich wallich ncd com ken wallich com kmw org decwrl vixie amber ken
rec.motorcycles	changing sprocket ratios honda karish gondwana stanford edu chuck karish writes that twin cam right yep think the only with chain after years finally stretching into the replace zone honda don have the widest power bands sigh know know clayton brooks from the heart cbrooks uky edu pot the blue cbrooks ukma bitnet lex grass and rutgers uunet ukma cbrooks bourbon country ama nma maa ams acbl dod
rec.motorcycles	bike advice ummm did you have any bikes other than that not suggest you look for since they only have about horsepower whereas the has over and might bit much for you sincerely nathaniel dod ama
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article apr research nec com behanna syl nec com chris behanna writes completely different tack what was the eventual outcome babe the bad mouthed biker thought posted this last year the women came court with three witnesses the two women that were the car and one neighbor that heard shouting lawyer didn like the odds since there were multiple complaints both ways and the judge had history finding everyone guilty least something convinced she came without lawyer drop everything the net result was laywer bill for and court costs for her the only consolation was that she had trouble scraping together the while not quite one week beer money for roid
rec.motorcycles	riceburner respect article qqxp cbmvax cbm commodore com hartzler cbmvax cbm commodore com jerry hartzler cats writes duck squids don wave return waves ever even each excuse for being ignoramus but what are these edu breaths with more riceburner than brain roid
rec.motorcycles	motorcycle detailing tip rubbing compound you mean meguire didn work the dod magic elixir choice for plastic stuff ron miller dod
rec.motorcycles	cobra locks greetings netters steve writes about cobra locks well have the mother all locks friday the april took possesion cobra links lock diameter this was special order weighs lot had carry home and was digging into shoulder after about two blocks have currently kryptonite rock lock through the front wheel padlock for the steering lock master padlock lock the cover two front spokes and the cobra links through the rear swing arm and around post underground parking garage next friday the have appointment have alarm installed bike when travel the cobra links and the cover and padlock stay home the way also removed the plastic mesh that the cobra links and encased the lock from end end using bicycle inner tubes two them got the from bicycle dealer that sold the cobra links the guys were really great and didn mark the price the lock much and the inner tubes were free later fxstc rock roll mike mychalkiw hog ryerson polytechnical institute dod just this side hell academic computing information centre doh just the other side email acad ryevm ryerson
rec.motorcycles	extraordinary footpeg engineering okay dod ers here goddamn mystery for today was turning degree corner just like any other day but there was slight difference rough spot right path caused the suspension compress mid corner and some part the bike hit the ground with very tangible thunk pulled over first opportunity sus out the damage bike kawasaki gpx with footpegs that are hinged and sprung such that they fold upward and backward contact with ground etc and the lower extreme corner each peg there mounted bank follower little stud that theoretically the first bit hit the ground banked turn the stud mounted the footpeg threaded bit about long which screws into threaded hole the footpeg now for the mystery the stud the side the bike that clunked when turned was absent fairly sure was there before the event there was damage the end the footpeg where the stud would ordinarily have been fact the thread the hole the footpeg was perfectly intact with evidence something having been forcefully ripped out only moments previously okay all you engineering types how the you explain this how can you rip tightly fitting steel thread out threaded hole alloy without damaging the thread the hole this some sort tech design thingo that kawasaki never mentioned like that the end the footpeg suddenly changes phase impact let the stud rip out then changes back solid quite amazed how this could have happened the meantime life goes without left hand bank follower barry manor dod confused accidental peg scraper
rec.motorcycles	dogs bikes dogs will chase anything that moves have two dogs and they love chasing when ride off they will also chase any car that passes running along the footpath sidewalk kph they don seem after trucks though the size difference must factor also works favour though can exercise them quite easily riding mile the road and back few times minyos rmit
rec.motorcycles	kawasaki engine needed looking for kawasaki engine just the engine intake exhaust ignition etc preferably the central texas area but haven had much luck around here take whatever can get please reply via mail call you have one more really need spare thanx jonathan lusky lusky ccwf utexas edu turbos are nice but rather blown jeep wrangler for sale holley bbl camaro spd
rec.motorcycles	forsale yamaha seca turbo don want this but need money for school this very snappy bike needs little work and don have the money for some details miles mitsubishi turbo not asthetically beautiful but very fast one the few factory turboed bikes not kit must see and ride appreciate how fun this bike asking best offer the bike can seen bennington vermont mail for more info thanks chris santac rpi edu
rec.motorcycles	bmw for sale miles black leather tank bra tank bag corbin seat metzler tires garaged and pampered can afford continue paying nyc garage fees for two bikes one has best offer above takes stephen manes manes magpie linknet com manes and associates new york usa
rec.motorcycles	info sport cruisers article fonhvm huxb andrew cmu edu jae cmu edu writes looking for sport cruiser factory installed fairings full half hard saddle bags and above and all that and still has that sporty look particularly like the and any the series bmw bikes was wondering there are any other comparable type bikes being produced companies other than bmw the honda was designed honda germany originally for the european market competition for the bmw series check out tony tony kidson pgp key request voice morgan towers the cat has had move now mail order morgan road had take the top tony morgan demon bromley off the machine tny cix compulink england honda dod compuserve com
rec.motorcycles	misc buying info needed article apr hamp hampshire edu jyaruss hamp hampshire edu writes there buying guide for new used motorcycles that lists reliability how about the buying process what look for etc cycle world puts one out but sure not very objective try talking with dealers and the people that hang out there well love give advice there pricing guide for new used motorcycles blue book most the bigger banks have blue book which includes motos ask for the one with rvs are there any books articles riding cross country motorcycle camping etc couldn help you here there idiots guide motorcycles you reading cliff weston dod seca tem the female body beautiful work art while the male body lumpy and hairy and should not seen the light day
rec.motorcycles	accident report article jun prl philips mcardle prl philips owen mcardle writes article ranck vtvm edu ranck vtvm edu ranck writes article jun bcrka bnr whitton bnr mark whitton writes turns out that the trailer lights were not hooked the truck yep basic rule never expect believe turn signals completely around here and many other places people just don signal all and sometimes the signals aren working sometimes they get left the scary bit about this the the non availability rear lights all now living the netherlands learned that the only reliable indicators are those red ones which both sides once some people call them brake lights once they light expect anything occur front you not just the dutch though however never realised how much relied this until got caught few times behind someone whose lights didn work all once sussed out wasn bad knowing half the battle but great way find out that you been following someone too closely now try check for lights all the time cos that split second can make all the difference though shouldn necessary know owen what used peeve canada was the cars with bloody red rear indicators you see single red light come and think now stopping but one brake lamp not working does have those dumb bloody red rear indicators this being survival you have assume braking and take the appropriate actions until such time the light goes out and again after which you can reasonably certain bloody red rear indicator ivan reid paul scherrer institute ivan cvax psi gsx you porsche pass dod
rec.sport.baseball	spring records the orioles pitching staff again having fine exhibition season four shutouts low team era well haven gotten any baseball news since march but anyways could they contend yes could they win all maybe but for all those fans teams with bad spring records remember earl weaver first law baseball from his book managing one gives damn july you lost game march btw anyone have any idea the contenders for the fifth starter pretty much set that sutcliffe mussina mcdonald and rhodes are the first four the rotation here johns hopkins university where the mascot the blue jay their baseball team logo was the toronto club logo now anatomically correct blue jay god can they think original idea even the same pose the baltimore oriole the hats how many people realize that the bird really called baltimore oriole admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings
rec.sport.baseball	eck rickey was rickey whining again article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes read all the followups this but thought back the original article make specific comments about the method jao megatest com john oswalt said has obtained the play play records computer readable form for every major league baseball game for the past several years devised algorithm which call sum over situations and wrote computer program calculate every major league players contribution using works like this look every situation every game baseball season situation determined inning score where the baserunners are and how many outs there are for each situation count how many times the team eventually won the game that the situation occured and divide the number times the situation came come with value for that situation this was first done george lindsey the late early and reported article investigation strategies baseball author george lindsey journal operations research issue volume july august later pete palmer did the same thing using simulated seasons generate larger set data avoid the kind small sample anomalies that other people have worried about reported this the hidden game baseball with john thorn gary skoog modified the method bit and did some work what called value added measure based these situational values his were based directly marginal runs though not win probabilities these results applied the season were reported one the bill james baseball abstract books help out here somebody for example situation might inning score runner second and outs there were regular season major league games last year with the rockies and marlins there will more this year say this situation came those and the team ahead won them then the value this situation description method look change win probability based the bat plus any baserunning and credit debit the player that amount each time gets plate appearance now for each player sum all his bat and base running values for the season obtain overall value for that player obviously the sum all players values for each game and for the season whole will that only because you always credit the batter and the pitcher there validation involved there very big problem here that nobody has yet commented you adding probabilities and probabilities don add runs you can add the total team runs breaks down into how many runs joe contributed plus how many runs fred contributed etc but probabilities don work that way bob increases his team chance winning each pas that does not mean that bob increased his team chance winning fact doesn mean anything because the units are screwy agree and disagree john saying that the batters efforts will result more wins then losses while you are probably correct that does not mean more wins then losses means something would rather have player who increased teams chances winning each pas then would player who increased chances winning each pas thus there appears obvious positive association between john statistic and winning games thus before you disregard this stat appears that further study must into what sort relationship there consider example bob hits out solo the bottom the first about your scale does the same thing again the fourth with the score tied for another and again the seventh with the score tied for another and finally the ninth win the game score for value bob hit solo plate appearances and was credited your method with but what does that mean was bob responsible for the win certainly not the defense always responsible you include pitching that and bob wasn pitching fact bob was only the offense which lot but not even close furthermore what about the other team runs say they all came solo fred then fred was hitting tie the game which are just valuable take the lead see lindsey and fred will himself have accrued good rating fred and bob combined have amassed win one game there clearly problem here the only problem here insistance that these number mean exactly how many wins the team has first are using averages over many seasons and applying them one game second remember some players performance take away from the chance you winning that player who gets out gets negative probability most cases thus not sure any given game when you add all the numbers for team who won that they will add that game sometimes they will add more then one sometime less than one also the pitchers bad performances giving runs may have given them large negative percentage for that game also any batter that pulled night would give large negatives greg thinking about the right things but his intuition off the mark closers are enormously important the total number runs value outweighed when they come are prevented from comming the doubling which greg allows not enough another article proposed test this can predict team won lost record quite accurately looking how many runs total they score and allow without regard when those runs score the game late runs are really more important than early runs then looking only late runs should lead better predictor right but really only because you have smaller sample size would think however that the number runs you score the first inning would just good prediction how many runs you score the last inning and realize something else closer usually comes close situation not blow out hard argue that any runs that closer gives game have equal importance those given the first inning look closer giving runs often means team will lose many games the other hand starter who gives runs often still leaves his team chance win the offence has many more outs something about but not saying all late inning situations are equally important either down runs the ninth really does not matter how many runs pitcher gives the ninth here another thought experiment apply this method basketball what you find that points scored the first half the game have almost exactly value because lead safe with entire half yet play furthermore the sub off the bench who sinks the winning free throws with time the clock gets for the game while the star forward who scored points the first half before spraining his ankle gets zero does this make sense but why would you assume that the teams probability winning would before the possesion which the free throws were made look you are down point with seconds left there fairly high probability that you will win the game you are possesion the ball and not forget that somebody elses missed shots turnovers fouls bad defense etc caused negative chance that the team would win from reading all the discussion this statistic feel that those who critisize certain extent are doing out agenda first look this statistic valadates clutchness but really does not cluthness revolves around the idea that certain players crucial situation elevate their performance and others performance goes down never seen convincing proof that this really happens you assume there clutchness then that means that except for lot noice this statistic has positive association player performance there way get rid the noice you not believe clutchness certainly could find out what the average value home run for example may find for instance that home run increases your chance winning average while strikeout decreases your chance winning bet this were done would find that this statistic was just good other statistics have for predicting wins and losses how evaluate relief pitchers say john and sam have the exact same pitching statistics runs earned runs etc both had exceptional numbers john however only pitched closer situations while sam was mop man who was more valuble their team probably john who was the better pitcher they were probably about the same brian smith
rec.sport.baseball	joke rockies have attendance record hell the orioles opening day game could easily the largest history had stadium with seats but unfortunely the yards definitely excellent ballpark only holds like with sro spots ticket sales for the entire year moving fast bleacher seats are almost gone for every game this year extremely likelyhood that the could sell out every game this year especially lead the division for most the year like another front the sale the orioles anyone likely forced upon eli jacobs who major debt apparently maybe can get owner willing spend proven rightfielder free agent the winter fernando has made the the fifth starter the pitching staff looks pretty good sutcliffe mussina mcdonald rhodes and fernando baltimore pick for the victors very competitive east admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings second last day the season gregg the true wild thing olson uncorks wild pitch allowing the blue jays tie blue jays win the and ends the baby birds miracle season
rec.sport.baseball	players overpaid there lot whining about how much players are overpaid thought put together underpaid team that could win pennant splurged and let four the players earn much half million dollars the highest paid player frank thomas cut some players like kenny lofton chris hoiles keith mitchell tim wakefield and bunch pitchers all whom could have arguably made the team better cost million for the lot them the total team salary averaging slightly over player that too steep you can dump thomas and bagwell replacing them with paul sorrento and minimum wager save bit over million dollars and still have one the best teams the majors juan guzman mussina castillo eldred rhodes militello rojas beck melendez hernandez nied rodriguez piazza thomas bagwell knoblauch barberie gomez palmer listach pena gonzalez lankford sanders plantier ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice legally sound you follow the law school you will probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	rickey henderson article apr msstate edu isis msstate edu jiann ming writes say buy out henderson contract and let him bag groceries next season you able sign him for nothing that goes for any bitching ball player doubt henderson would clear waivers and did would instantly signed for the major league minimum with oakland picking the remaining million tab some gms value field performance too valentine
rec.sport.baseball	giants win the pennant giants win the pennant giants win the pennant ooops guess little early here see you october
rec.sport.baseball	minnesota pitching article snelson uwsuper edu snelson uwsuper edu scott nelson writes the rotation has changed due strange injury scott erickson developed twinge the stomach area and has been taken out the rotation new rotation the best mind knowledge kevin tapani jim deshais pat mahomes willie banks add mike trombley there somewhere since they need five people mark guthrie will remain the bullpen the long lefty and short will played scott leius who played short for much his career before the twins third mike pagliarulo and jeff reboulet will platoon pags and terry jorgenson will platoon third with reboulet the backup infielder pags looked pretty miserable yesterday for guy who lead the league muffing what should routine grounders heck muffing grounder would probably have gotten jorgenson did nothing exceptional that noticed leius missed ball think gagne would have reached will certainly miss gag glove this season winfield has struggled during preseason sunday against the colorado rockies went for with rbis and scored once looked pretty good there contrary what the mediots have been saying looked reasonable first isn mid hrbek but then neither the pretty big guy himself any more note used seeing the twins looking kinda big the field but not that big hits vaguely like last year perfectly good first baseman note much this posting from personal observation yesterday game where the regulars were mostly pulled after several innings winfield may have big holes his defensive game that didn show didn have pick any bad throws for example but take what saw far david thornley have tickets will travel dome
rec.sport.baseball	brewers injuries all been locked small closet chained lab bench for the last week two without access really important information saw the million shoulder back the how long out for how many millions inning will get this year nothing personal against higuera mind you just wondering how bud can keep coffing money for him when lets current big producers over relative pittance please realize the term relative pittance can only used with sarcasm when discussing baseball salaries additional questions did get see bones pitch this spring how looking and where going fit the rotation how surhoff shaping defensively third are they going build new stadium when tom
rec.sport.baseball	binaca blast deep drive derby bbddd returns article piisn asq network ucsd edu king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes less well publicized part the now infamous darrin jackson for derek bell trade was the fact that san diego included the deal even less publicized than this however was that the didn come from the padres but from named source and that the money didn the blue jays toronto the money was diverted into london bank account owned shadowy character named vincent gray should lucky the account number must have been rejected the odd thing was that gray wasn some british financier but canadian social scientist working the university western ontario gray was previously known the authorities only associate john palmer and the man who had the previous year discovered the true tater name bing bang ben macdonald accurate big bang ben macdonald soon after that gray and palmer sent word ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states the field baseballistic research she controlled both the acker cook pitch alike contest and the binaca blast research institute the prime minister smiled hope not think that would inadvertantly give any pleasure mulroney really ruins day matthew wall marvellous ending the section the expos okay not giving the day job but effort help keep the day job managed foist the job running the binaca blast deep drive derby onto vince gray whom future deep drive related tidbits should sent vince sscl uwo vince vaxi sscl uwo please identify any messages with the subject line bbddd vince can take this post the cue chime about what plans the new director the research institute and what kind body armor ontarians are wearing this spring meanwhile have pick that truckload denis boucher cards bought fill the area behind our tool shed jking realizing the taterific importance this work john palmer and concluded that might able pool some resources have not yet gone through the archives that jonathan sent when will send out official introduction the deep drive derby however wonder need rename the project now that the principal investigator and research archive have changed send your suggestions for rename the study the address given above and just think opening day soon the balls will flying out get your minds out the gutter the ball parks and helpless bystanders will injured balls reentering the atmosphere and you thought that meteorite showers were made rocks who will the stars this year can anyone hope combat brad arnsberg record start last year the season young the balls newly rubbed mud the hot dogs starting boil for the rest the year play ball and take cover and may all your sliders hang vince
rec.sport.baseball	designated hitter rule article ekdfc ttacs ttu edu ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons writes article apr bsu ucs ecgillespi leo bsuvc bsu edu writes doing postition paper the designated hitter rule any information even opinions would greatly apprecitated ecgillespie magic should rescinded the rules say baseball game between two teams nine players each let keep that way last weeks sports illustrated has couple big articles the designated hitter the baseball issue weeks sports illustrated
rec.sport.baseball	atas games standings all philadelphia chicago teams tied for after sunday dick redding battled chet brewer the first game dramatic four game series one friday one saturday and good old sunday doubleheader what could better declared ernie banks perhaps the fact that the cubs are challenging pitching always been pitching that lacked announced ryne sandberg can get brewer then beat carlton alexander bunning preferrably the last three know might able win lord hope pull off the phils scored once the top the first richie ashburn singled pete rose followed with hit sending ashburn around second kiki cuyler cut the ball off left center and threw bullet ernie banks who threw ron santo get ashburn third rose went second the play christobel torrienti lifted long fly center moving pete rose third schmidt was walked the cubs were absolutely refusing let him beat them both torrienti and schmidt will likely draw walks this year chuck klein starting hit very well and lashed double into gap right center cool papa bell speed allowed him cut the ball off and prevent schmidt from scoring nellie fox was walked and bob boone grounded out second ending the threat teams are starting realize that you don have pitch schmidt torrienti and that lowering their run total puts lot pressure klein and dick allen who platoons with chuck klein and occasionally spells rose first and credit the phillies that they been able sustain their pace the picthers have slumped times came the analysis from frank chance the cubs got that run back when bell bunted for hit thomas grounder moved him second and after sandberg made out billy williams singled home run the sixth ron santo launched two run homer make dick redding got trouble the eighth schmidt singled and klein singled him third reulbach entered face fox but dick allen popped out the dugout hit allen doubled right but luckily for the cubs williams had moved left and andre dawson had been inserted for defense fired bullet home plate keep klein third lance parrish hitting for boone was walked and bruce sutter entered larry bowa grounded into double play but delahanty walked pinch hitter desiring strikeout since ashburn was likely attempt bunt hit with the quick trillo pinch running third chance brought lee smith who induced pop the catcher from the speedy centerfielder ending the inning the cubs took the win moving game behind the phillies steve carlton was called upon battle finger brown saturday get another righthander the lineup ron santo moved first and bill madlock played third unfortunately brown allowed six doubles and the cub bullpen was worn down even more the cubs tried maintain lead against lefty madlock batting sixth had knocked two doubles his own driving home four runs gabby hartnett hit two home runs and cuyler added another and the score was cubs after six innings the phillie bullpen had more troubles the bottom the eighth the cubs grabbed more runs ice triumph sunday twin bill saw cool papa bell gather seven straight hits one point including rare outside the park home run the second game off robin roberts grover alexander the phils took the first contest but the cubs captured the second one with waddell gaining the win bruce sutter tossed two innings for the save though allowed one run the eighth the cardinals stood half game behind these leaders and would conclude their series with the expos monday montreal louis august way tie for dennis martinez roll and continued versus john tudor friday the expos have wide variety hitters and while they aren among the all time greats they are getting the job done after winning their first first two games they suddenly found themselves only games out first this wacky season martinez triumphed friday and williams outdueled dizzy dean saturday however the cardinals refused give winning sunday the cards captured monday game too steve carlton outdueled steve rogers really good against ground ball pitchers because our team speed remarked lou brock don see why can win this division the phillies and cubs may have some reasons for them two thirds the way through the season there way tie for first new york pittsburgh august straight wins for bucs now back but when your team slump like are the worst thing play pitcher park like this spoke gil hodges before the series keith hernandez added that their defense takes away quite few runs per year and must giving them extra wins the pirates have made only errors all season ahead the second place dodgers error totals tend around for the best defensive all time teams rube foster defeated sid fernandez friday and candelaria outshone seaver saturday game featuring some outstanding defense when nolan ryan and two relivers hit the mets another win sunday the pirates could once again look forward victory getting them back the mark they had been unable several times the past month bert blyleven met dwight gooden the afternoon game both pitchers possessed fantastic stuff and the only runs scored through eight innings were home runs solo shot rusty staub the mets and two run blast ralph kiner for the pirates the mets darryl strawberry singled home run the top the ninth off jesse orosco working his second inning after mookie wilson pinch ran for gary carter second with one out and runner first lee mazilli was sent pinch hit the pirates countered with kent tekulve placing him the fifth spot the order and putting barry bonds left field the ninth place hitter tekulve induced groundout forcing strawberry second slid hard into honus wagner preventing the pirates from turning their fifth double play the afternoon tekulve allowed hit but clemente threw mazilli out third from near the right field line ending the inning tug mcgraw relieved randy myers who entered pitch the eighth and got one out before bonds launched rocket deep center running through the stop sign third score inside the park homer win the pirates had scored improbable straight wins and had moved within games first place with seven weeks san francisco boswaukta august another sunday doubleheader appeared the schedule the giants managed close the gap the other teams thanks some starting pitching that just wouldn tire fact reported manager john mcgraw once this rough part the schedule over maybe early this coming week may shift man rotation again for little while juan marichal continued his hot pitching friday beating lew burdette and the braves willie mays had all four hits rick reuschel faced joe niekro saturday slugfest the braves park had been homer haven but this took the cake the giants won seesaw affair willie mays had three homers willie mccovey eddie matthews and don baylor had two and hank aaron ernie lombardi biz mackey and mel ott had one each the braves had collected home runs going into sunday doubleheader putting them pace for which would short the national league record they were still tad behind the yankees pace they had allowed over though vida blue actually got the win after retiring batters the fifth allowed only run the sixth but faltered the seventh joe mcginnity earned the save the doubleheader the braves hoyt wilhelm failed hold lead the first game but hank aaron homered off bill foster the eighth the braves won the giants took the second game however score the homer aaron was magical the braves however they fell three game below making comeback extremely unlikely san diego cincinnati aug randy jones faced ewell blackwell the first this game series and the padres felt rather good with don mattingly straining his back the last cleveland game the trade looked even better mcgriff batting average was even rising course the bench was very poor and joe gordon was only adequate the outfield but these were minor problems since the pitching was holding jones pitched good game friday and won mcgriff launched two home runs mel harder earned win with the help mark davis and ray narleski saturday was the final score tom candiotti battled satchel paige tie through eight innings before departing the game was scoreless for more innings until the thirteenth paige had departed after and john franco hurled scoreless inning tom browning was working his second scoreless inning when dave winfield doubled with one out and joe gordon was pitched around thurm munson doubled both runners home and the padres gamed win the three game sweep had pulled the giants into tie with the reds though the reds denied the highly emotional series with the dodgers may have taken too much out them brookangeles houston august another series capped off weekend doubleheader took place the wide open plains the astrodome the astros sent joe niekro the hill the first game opposite don drysdale normally drysdale remarked would challenging hitter being ready throw them can afford with this team though have get our own runners going can afford let the astros beat then winked and said well maybe davis will get decked once the fact that glenn davis leads the team homers with six primarily why would decked but should understood that his current pace would give him nine for the season the hitting this team little better but the power all doubles and triples still carl furillo the main reason astro home runs were hit over the weekend threw two runners out trying for inside the park homers for those unaware the nastness the astros park they have foot high gray wall all around the outfield balls must hit into the seats home runs the foul poles are feet from home plate but the alleys are feet away with center field feet some three year old threw tantrum and told his playmates can hit home runs nobody will hit home runs remarked roy campanella the dodgers stole five bases friday but the astros decided revitalize the baltimore chopping that had failed weeks before for tonight anyway davis jim wynn and jose cruz did not have mess with their swings according the manager after poles and willie wells reached base via the baltimore chop drysdale decked jose cruz with pitch responded with two run double but wynn playing first for davis popped and the astros didn score any more that inning they did score the fourth erase deficit and the astros wound winning they threatened even better the next game tommy john would their opponent walt alston met privately with the starters before the game think know how can beat the baltimore chop explained how can that pee wee reese wondered they going beating the ball down got ready throw the run steve will start first dig balls out the dirt but want all you practice your barehanded picks and throws with shallow infield almost the whole time the plan almost worked mike scott allowed only two runs through eight innings but the astros got three two them scored when bill doran pushed bunt into the outfield the fourth with runners second and third astros was the final with dave smith earning another save the dodgers scored victory the first game the twin bill sunday nolan ryan walked five three whom scored dodger win fernando valenzuela lost the second game don sutton however the dodgers thirteen stolen bases the series proved not enough mostly power team remarked ron cey jackie and when plays maury wills are our only real speed demons though couple other plays can now and then sunk place like the astrodome guess that why they successful there indeed seems that basestealing teams give them the most trouble the dome the stros swiped bases attempts giving them the season standings after these weekend series east team new york cleveland detroit boston baltimore toronto washington west oaksaselphia minnesota chicago kansas city california milwaukee seattle east chicago philadelphia louis pittsburgh montreal new york west brookangeles cincinnati san francisco boswaukta houston san diego doug fowler dxf cwru edu age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder after casey relatives have give lots hugs love missed the strike the poem support cause heaven just great ran first and made big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	bill james player rating book dave this has never happened before kirsch writes correction nied was the only player identified this book grade prospect who was exposed the draft according bill james the stop the presses section preceding his player evaluations valued nied and said that nied value does not increase significantly result his selection although did catch break getting away from the strongest rotation baseball thought bill james latest book completely and totally sucked bought but will not purchase anything his ever again without thoroughly looking first what tripe the book inconsistent and filled with selective analysis james claims looking forward and then makes some absolutely bizarre statements value not only that but got the impression probably glanced the book for about hour before put his name say was disappointed grand understatement gary huckabay kevin kerr the feldstein the mid living argument for there anything love more than huge existence parallel sig someone quoting lines add universes new ones and consecutive posts too
rec.sport.baseball	dodgers newsletter could somebody please tell there dodgers newsletter the net and how subscribe thanks joel
rec.sport.baseball	marlins win marlins win only caught the tail end this one espn does anyone have report look all that teal bleah david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	joke rockies have attendance record article apr dvorak amd com twhite mozart amd com tom white writes the highest single game attendance was game the world series october the coliseum white sox over dodgers gate officially largest regular season game again for the first game the city angels opening day april home opener anyway the rockies might really nail the record the record attendance for doubleheader larger but since are all but nonexistent nowadays why bother listing wasn there new york cleveland game the late jhon rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu prediction for marlins wins rockies wins
rec.sport.baseball	tickets etc let look the effects inflation superstars salaries read once that the babe made one year and that was about good got for him let assume made that not sure the figures but know the ballpark pun intended today assuming yearly inflation rate which understatement not accurate his measly salary would worth just over assuming inflation average around almost didn crunch these numbers beforehand these numbers might lead one believe that today players are slightly overpaid the babe appears have made then what today average above average players make now perfectly accurate salary year salary and average inflation rate would make this analysis more accurate but don think off much chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	scott erickson article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes path news cis umn edu umn edu news feed peachnet edu gatech concert duke news duke edu bchm biochem duke edu from fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush newsgroups rec sport baseball subject scott erickson message news duke edu date apr gmt sender news news duke edu organization biochemistry lines nntp posting host bruchner biochem duke edu usa today reports that may going the arm pains unspecified nature further news would appreciated eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close erickson did the day with pulled muscle his left side near rib cage until news who the twins will bring kevin hansen twin family study university minnesota khansen staff umn edu contact university minnesota women basketball theory guides experiment decides izaak kolthoff
rec.sport.baseball	espn tbs games article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes does anyone know where can get list nationally televised games such espn and tbs live the east coast and like catch many giants games possibly can this list published every week baseball weekly brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com that was not swimming that was bathing german reporter after watching olympic superstar swimmer mark spitz get badly beaten during comeback race
rec.sport.baseball	finnally the phils have support article news udel edu philly brahms udel edu robert hite writes article fjqpau wblm andrew cmu edu anuj gupta andrew cmu edu writes everytime have written the net about the possibility successfuls season the philadelphia phillies have gotten ripped from everybody from pittsburgh calcutta but all the ignoramouses care look this week baseball weekly they will see that not the only one who considers then division winners the rest the most respected baseball writers the country well and these guys certainly know what they talking about every bozo from pittsburgh calcutta will just have sit and take notice this phils team offensive juggernaut which going score lot runs and put ton hits the scoreboard you people out there are going sick seeing phillies scattered all over every offensive league leaders category the newspaper these guys hit through spring training well before getting hit yesterday but they had plane catch minutes after the game ended they minds weren this point really thought this had been written pro sdcn anti mediot poster blessed with certain talent for sarcasm and biting remarks somebody like for instance the lurid overstatements were obviously intended humiliate the original poster now top the great offense they have slightly above average pitching staff which has lot youth and promise the pitchers their part and mitch keeps blown saves minimum look for another pennant out left field the vet robert hite michael jack schmidt for commissioner but then the scales were lifted from eyes looks like robert really being serious well compare the performance the phillies with the edition which had outstanding run producers every position except yet finished frustrating sub level the folks didn ever amount anything and neither will the squad imho any other parallels with previous years teams for this year editions the style braves orioles greg mockingbird franklin interracial mixing encompasses lot lot more ccit arizona edu than mingling between races robohen things one wishes see the moon flowers the face dear one well performed the furnishings tea cottage the real thoughts one lover and her letter all famous places
rec.sport.baseball	with surge the last two weeks ladies and gentlemen boys and girls lend your ears for but moment the national legue eastern division champions will the philadelphia phillies one hundred and ten percent guarantee chamberlain hollins dykstra incaviglia jackson williams daulton greene kruk mulholland rivera thompson duncan watch soar
rec.sport.baseball	quick way tell your local beat writer dumb jayson stark trhink that him fits perfectly this category anyone who writes dean palmer has homers this pace have home runs should shot the end april has and anyone writes this pace have homers they shouldbe shot too bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	mike francesa predictions hmm thought francesca predictions always hovered below especially the nfl not counting college football bowl day nice analyst for explaining past tense and for mapping out what plays teams might but for predicting the future only looks good whne compared russo bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	finnally the phils have support article yxmj ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu robert hite writes most tirade deleted have editor and know how use okay been conservative and added about wins far now adding about more wins thanks the expansion teams okay thats wins lesse dipshit math genuious hmmm think thats good enough win the worse division baseball next time before you say something foolish get clue first either this example great sarcasm really really worried dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays again kirsch staff umn edu new quotes out context not beat dead horse but been couple weeks this disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said meant that one should not let the exception make the rule not exception good players come young most players who come young will good this has always been the rule are most players who come young always good when they young later worse not shift this the way has always been several detailed studies this have been done and they all shown that players aren coming any younger older than the past and they aren playing any more less the minors than they used the only thing that shifts our memories the good old days damn was afraid you would say that but all after the fact which makes not applicable the current discussion which about how you decide whether play the rookie who hasn established himself the majors over the mediocre veteran the padres played santiago that year because they clearly had nobody else worth playing well perhaps the braves had one else worth playing this year would lopez there but they have others worth playing least their opinion and happen agree both these young men were highly touted defensive catchers expected among the best ever baseball not rec sport baseball consensus that may sound like incredibly arrogant comment but found that the sdcn consensus when one exists right far more often than the media consensus the opinions baseball people affiliated with mlb can believe that newbie here take your word but alomar fine defensive catcher which was statement above that solid reason for bringing him tender age long they feel can also hit bit lopez does not have such consensus about his defensive prowess and imho that enough give him that dreaded seasoning don know who knows suppose the same people similar who know will better than some other catcher these are course just differing opinions read that his arm not that strong suppose somewhere there some measurement ratios and that still learning call game that latter skill may difficult project someone without intimate knowledge his performance but tangible skill disagree that don think tangible skill any more than leadership don deny that real skill and that some catchers may much better than others but really don see any way that could ever know who they are nichols law catcher defense eerily accurate far too often for take defensive assessments catchers very seriously sorry new don know nichols law don believe catchers era but interested pitchers eras with different catchers any info that absolutely the evidence piling year after year the only other alternative that the braves really don know that their young players are average better than their current starters not ruling out that kind gross incompetence but think the salary schedule explanation more charitable other words know more than they the only logic behind different decision than would make must financial presume feel this way about other franchises than atlanta consider know that the braves are about the strongest team baseball right now even with olson and lemke and nixon and bream the lineup they have good chance repeating champs this year any team ever has actually makes some sense say rather than making our team marginally better this year bringing the young studs and dumping the elderly let ahead and compete this year with what have and then bring the studs only have that still have them under reserve three years from now and beyond when the current team will collecting pensions fair the young players does make organizational sense think does well does make organizational sense one can hardly fault them for their decisions mean please don tell how run business especially when being successful could make wins you let bring lopez listen bobby like but the way see hits the big club this year paying mega arbitration bucks down the road couple years and there way want that and continues with can win without him and then keep winning next year with him how that sure you could right you could also smoking some illegal substance hey that joke don get offended please hey love wrong about this you think unlikely love know why don cite anybody innate ethical rectitude though unless you know them personally well can cite anyone ethical rectitude because don know what means but again makes organizational sense then baseball business and there solid business reason for keeping lopez the farm then that what the braves should happen believe that baseball decision while you from your armchair may disagee don think there lot evidence suggest the decision they made predicted among large guffaws from several the start spring training think very normal decision have made certainly more reversible than have started lopez the bigs and have released one their catchers sure may conservative may also logical don know what ethics have with seems like pretty good common sense the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	east champion phillies robert hite writes here are the projected lineups benches rotation and bullpen for the national league east champion philadelphia phillies think the only phillies effect here are philly blunts course this all becomes true the first smoke one myself david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	mike francesa predictions article apr porthos bellcore com dick herahera bellcore com vaughn richard writes article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes article apr porthos bellcore com dick herahera bellcore com vaughn richard writes mike francesa mentioned his baseball picks passing the radio yesterday being that this francesa talkin the opinions are well worth consideration indeed after all was the wizard foresaw the year the big east the ncaa tournament unfortunatly none those teams made into the sweet sixteen much less new orleans neither did overall mike francesa has outstanding prediction record overall how you figure ignore him your own peril far radio hasn exploded from not being tuned roger
rec.sport.baseball	move won see was why the redflops can but won win stwombly ulowell edu steve twombly writes vaughn can hit the spring vaughn can only hit during the season excellent point hope god that ted simmons doesn get the weird idea trading for the guy and does had better not include jeff king the deal god what traded zane smith and jeff king for vaughn and greg blosser would worse than the nichols curse hmm guess that doesn sound sincere enough well least tried jking
rec.sport.baseball	belated predictions mss netcom com mark singer writes article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes javier lopez better catcher than greg olson but has there ever the history baseball been year old younger rookie catcher who compared favorably among all league catchers terms defense and brought bat wasn sandy alomar who was supposed that good his rookie year not wasn benito santiago who was supposed that good his rookie year not hrm sandy alomar year old rookie games threw out few baserunners benito santiago year old rookie games threw out few baserunners too ivan rodriguez year old rookies games didn exactly suck behind the plate can continue this thread with the others mentioned but you get the point you and others seem quick dismiss the seasoned veterans favor the hot young rookies perhaps just perhaps the management team the pennant winning braves knows something more than you and perhaps what they know that very very few and year old rookies come the majors and make impact true which only makes more important realize when you have one the few lopez season last year adjusted major league equivalencies was hrs how bad does have behind the plate for that not better than olson mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com would not admire hitting against ryne duren because ever hit you the head you might the past tense casey stengel
rec.sport.baseball	espn and expansion article ucdavis edu itlm dale ucdavis edu donnie trump writes was watching peter gammons espn last night and got little confused while talking about expansion started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they facing mcgriff hitting home runs sheffield getting rbi and glavine winning games this was course all reference what happened the other times that baseball has expanded early late late what really confused though was the mention players who would well next year specifically roger clemens winning games and the likes mcgwire and gonzalez hitting home runs question how the hell will the rockies marlins help the the last time looked there wasn lot talent jumping leagues did miss something dennis cleary dfcleary ucdavis edu wondered the same thing when first mentioned thought was just making mistake but then said over and over and then the examples from other years gave stats for players from both leagues even when only one league expanded since stats never lie guess there effect both leagues because the expansion draft takes talent from both leagues equally making every team both leagues dilute their major league talent calling players that normally they would not have had there not been expansion make sense
rec.sport.baseball	rockies opening day cast here the colorado rockies openning day cast pitchers scott aldred mlb totals games era saves andy ashby games era saves willie blair games era saves butch henry games era saves darren holmes games era saves david neid games era saves jeff parrett games era saves steve reed games era saves bruce ruffin games era saves bryn smith games era saves gary wayne games era saves the rest joe girardi games rbi danny sheaffer games rbi freddie benavides games rbi vinny castilla games rbi andres galarraga games rbi charlie hayes games rbi jim tatum games rbi eric young games rbi dante bichette games rbi daryl boston games rbi jerald clark games rbi alex cole games rbi gerald young games rbi dale murphy seasons rbi
rec.sport.baseball	rockies and rangers fans please help greetings baseballers have choice two more less identical conferences attend one denver and one dallas both may could some kind rockies rangers they play the dallas area right fans please let know there are home dates for that week love catch game thanks shawn
rec.sport.baseball	opening day the just lost the rangers few minutes ago was not too happy about the pitching rick sutcliffe runs innings the this puts remembering the season after didn much over winter and wound now know that mussina mcdonald and rhodes are better pitching prospects than ballard and milacki but are any other oriole fans scared out there admiral steve liu other scores now cincy over montreal think florida leading the braves cubs the futility cubs batting haunting them yanks beat the tribe believe admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander chief the security division the club earth chapter president the earth chapter the club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem that the abbreviation clitoris from the polymorph episode red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings god man drilling holes through his head not the answer mccoy you know susanna hoffs has really nice ass comment flanagan the club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	wohlers minors article hydra gatech edu ccastmm prism gatech edu mike marler writes apr rigel econ uga edu shannonr moe coe uga edu shannon reeves cntr for tech writes times seems others the bullpen are used cox for middle relief marvin only pitched innings this spring supposed over his surgery and wondering cox still trying decide who use middle relief and thinks that marvin might his better choice early the season would immediately give mcmchael many chances pitch after spring and then use bedrock and freeman after that wondering how intends use howell whatever happened senior smoke you mean juan berenguer was traded for mark davis the middle last season exchanged one stiff for another berenguer hadn come back from his injury think retired now anyhow middle relief marvin ain that bad least can pitch couple innings mop work don know much about mcmichael was the mexican league guy but everybody else the pen inning man except maybe mercker eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	minnesota pitching date mon apr from karim edvard ahmed andrew cmu edu since haven been able keep with baseball much this season have few questions about favorite team the minnesota twins how good does their rotation look the last heard the order tapani erikson mahomes banks and some guy never heard sounds pretty pathetic well maybe will banks year old prospect who hasn matured quickly they would have liked mahomes year old who very highly touted tapani and erickson are also young and have looked very good this spring the last spot was between jim deshaies formerly houston and and mike trombley deshaies hasn looked very good this spring believe that the spot has gone trombley although they hadn wanted starters this unproven personally believe very highly mahomes and trombley who playing short and third well scott leius the shortstop played mostly last year but was the minors and moved back after gagne left split maybe between pagliarulo who has had great spring and terry jorgenson good looking kid who has languished portland for years not sure how the time will divided but they seem happy with what they have here like jorgenson but fear they might give too much time pags how winfield doing sorry can help you here dennis
rec.sport.baseball	belated predictions well long folks are sharing their esteemed wisdom karnak sez west east west east chicago toronto atlanta louis texas new york cincinnati montreal minnesota baltimore houston new york oakland boston los angeles philadelphia seattle detroit san diego pittsburgh kansas city milwaukee san fran chicago california cleveland colorado florida details follow later pick apart you like also anyone still taking entries for prediction pools contests could you snag mine and add the list thanks just glad opening day makes little bit for the gloom doom weather patterns here lundy dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays again kirsch staff umn edu new quotes out context not beat dead horse but been couple weeks this disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	with surge the last two weeks watch soar shouldn that watch stoned maybe watch suck even watch sore matt montgomery really like the phillies
rec.sport.baseball	where can find baseball statistics interested uncovering statistics boston red sox players from march present want look changes batting average hits multi hit games runs stolen bases and base during every game where can find this information any sports magazines log this info have directly the ball club thanks for the info kip
rec.sport.baseball	grateful dead being baseball fan and fan the above mentioned band was wondering anyone could clue whether the dead members sang the national anthem todays giant opener would imagine that bit too early for anyone know but answer would greatly appreciated curious robert robert margesson umaine hockey park black bears orono ncaa champs
rec.sport.baseball	williams sent down yanks win east well really isn this cut and dry but jay fan the thing feared worst has happened the yanks sent down williams and are going start williams also believe they kept wickman and millitello their rotation which much nicer than that kaminiecki and mike witt combo thought they throw out their the slaughterhouse because their experience granted witt might good but think that they used rationale keep the youngsters and not given the job witt because was good pitcher and has experience the yanks are showing that they are taking positive strides forwards the jays with the loss dave stewart are looking gigantic holes their pitching staff the orioles should also there the end gord niguma salvage the season let olerud win mvp
rec.sport.baseball	was good player you shorts plus idiots article apr otago guilford otago writes article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes article apr otago guilford otago writes jackson kcr kcr kcr cws maj maj this what jackson looked like with everything converted neutral park the basis run production his equivalent average started was and let say had established his last two seasons level play that good very good fact but probably doesn make the top ten the league the best eqa the was dave winfield thomas was first first the was bonds incroyable tenth was bip roberts but better than any season the past five years joe carter about what mattingly had what felix jose had the last two years just ahead time raines five year average better than ryan klesko mles got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing though his hype was lot better than his hitting that the basis for the net comments about him being overrated the media would have you beleive was great hitter think was good maybe very good hitter was imo something like the best hitter the majors clay
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article mssc dfw netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes age alomar had brilliant rookie year true was limited injuries his sophomore season but his numbers both that yaer and the year following were quite mediocre this season the same bill james projects ops the same bill james why you say that sounds like you suggesting bill james had something with overhyping the kid death contraire was fairly critical him after his roy campaign noting that wasn all world catcher hitter called him basically average when everyone else the media was predicting the next johnny bench roy campanella both these young men were highly touted defensive catchers expected among the best ever baseball the reports read indicate that lopez very ordinary defensively which reports are those the dodgers options are parrish and hernandez and now only carlos piazza long continues with his very hot bat they will keep him the lineup because they need the offensive production when cools off look for the much better defensive catcher hernandez only play more like hernandez lot but piazza can catch the ball you gotta play him imho much better hitter although hernandez isn bad hitter right now sounds like piazza will catch most the time and hernandez will candiotti caddy since can catch the knuckler long they play their abilities the dodgers could have very good catching tandem the braves options are berryhill and olson agree that olson nothing special but think berryhill better than many people rsb believe but both the braves catchers are very good defensively calling game blocking the plate throwing and although they are somewhat weak offenivsively they play team that not much need another big bat think both are overrated defensively see nichols law catcher defense but that something that difficult prove disprove from your viewpoint mine about the only tangible thing can look opponent and that clouded how well your pitchers hold runners catchers era possibility but subject way too many biases for them playing team that not much need another big bat disagree here too about the only chink the braves armor that they weak offensively several positions belliard plays unless bream and hunter form another super platoon and very weak defensively blauser plays like see the braves give least one mel nieves javy lopez chipper jones shot but much like the talent rich jays recent years they conservative and stick with what they have not saying that wrong just conservative dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays again kirsch staff umn edu new quotes out context not beat dead horse but been couple weeks this disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	quick way tell your local beat writer dumb article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark think that him fits perfectly this category could there jayson stark that writes weekly for some press syndicate and also for baseball america anyone who writes dean palmer has homers this pace have home runs should shot the end april has and anyone writes this pace have homers they shouldbe shot too stark has done this sort thing but has never been serious about usually states that this sort projection useless the top such columns think did one season and some manager was projected thrown out games and some hitter could expect plunked times stark does some really funny stuff his weekly baseball reviews are good collections strange things that happened during the previous week also regularly prints kinerisms lance smith moments after being named manager for the lsmith umn edu oakland peanut was crushed special limited edition red headed loner wielding aluminum bat signature murder the mausoleum
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward theodorus redsox fannus fischer writes sorry this doesn fly the good players have always been ready for the majors early how many hofers were not contributing major leaguers the time they were that brings interesting point anyone else catch espn piece about prospects and the relationship between age career length mvps and hall fame members was part their preseason special basically they looked players that had amassed plate appearances abs the time they were and noticed some interesting things for starters they found out such players comprised the majority mvps the history the game they also found out such players represented the majority the players the hall fame the kicker though was that they actually did some number crunching and found that such players careers lasted much longer than the careers players not that group they also found that these players produced both greater level performance and produced over twice the raw totals hrs etc the other players the first group outhit the second something like raw and blew away the second group such categories hrs rbis etc was the most impressive thing seen espn recent memory guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays again kirsch staff umn edu new quotes out context not beat dead horse but been couple weeks this disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	red sox win bosox royals clemens appier key hit mike greenwell out tripple with bases loaded
rec.sport.baseball	quick way tell your local beat writer dumb bob gajarsky hobokenite writes jayson stark trhink that him fits perfectly this category anyone who writes dean palmer has homers this pace have home runs should shot bob think that stark does this sort thing joke not serious prediction don really see why should shoot him for that the guys who ought shot are the ones who keep claiming how great the royals chances are the west since all evidence indicates that they aren joking and actually believe bob davis rbd thor ece edu
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article kfy news cis umn edu kirsch staff umn edu dave almost cursed the jays kirsch writes that brings interesting point anyone else catch espn piece about prospects and the relationship between age career length mvps and hall fame members was part their preseason special wow espn can repeat eleven year old bill james research literally check the abstract was the most impressive thing seen espn recent memory perhaps they reliable average sdcn guess ray knight makes his rebuttal tonight oops maybe not ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice legally sound you follow the law school you will probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	finnally the phils have support article yxmj ble news udel edu philly bach udel edu robert hite writes article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes everytime have written the net about the possibility successfuls season the philadelphia phillies have gotten ripped from everybody from pittsburgh calcutta but all the ignoramouses care look this week baseball weekly they will see that not the only one who considers then division winners the rest the most respected baseball writers the country well and what was the reasoning this genius writer that even though their pitching best sound they will win the strength their offense lesse offense offense thompson incaviglia offense wins division winners least wins wins wins thompson incaviglia therefore wins thompson incaviglia what did you learn school today you take math course and your teacher turns out rob rains run don walk drop add tierney you obviously don know what the hell you talking about thompson and incaviglia don equal wins but take the two them over stan javier and ruben amaro say this improvement should equate wins least then take lenny dykstra who played games last year and project his numbers hits rbi over games thus hits rbi okay now put these numbers the leadoff hole and thus have bump kruk hollins daulton rbi numbers just tad now lesse they knocked and respectively don you think fair add about rbi each they managed knock pretty nice amount runs with leadoff hitter okay bozo you think fair add maybe more wins now and how can forget wes chamberlain rbi even with month and aaa and horrible first half well project that over full season get and rbi that worth win two finally take the worse pitching staff the last year add the worse injury decimation okay now add danny jackson some health and full season for schilling that worth least wins okay been conservative and added about wins far now adding about more wins thanks the expansion teams okay thats wins lesse dipshit math genuious hmmm think thats good enough win the worse division baseball next time before you say something foolish get clue first actually was simply relaying the reasoning this called genius writer agree the reasoning was foolish next time before you say something foolish aware what you are responding btw wins very funny tierney
rec.sport.baseball	new uniforms usually one two teams changes their logo minor uniform change per season but the past few seasons have been incredible any thoughts the new old reds uniforms remember seeing pete rose rookie card and unless miss guess was wearing the exact same duds the mets how about doc performance today have reinserted the mets patch the shoulder and changed the mets insgnia the front the jersey knowledge the first time that has been changed since and reminds little the dodger logo many teams have opted for return previous style uniform least uniforms that look more traditional phillies reds expos white sox padres etc and the once bright colors have been altered gray the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks the early years opposed the cookie cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs one the comissioner office and inter league play the horizon nice see that baseball least looks like was meant
rec.sport.baseball	players overpaid ted frank list underpaid players was this juan guzman mussina castillo eldred rhodes militello rojas beck melendez hernandez nied rodriguez piazza thomas bagwell knoblauch barberie gomez palmer listach pena gonzalez lankford sanders plantier what all these players have common they not qualify for arbitration they were never free agents called the reserve clause look and year from now will whine about how several these guys are way overpaid and getting outrageous raises arb humbug king sparky banaian taxes new taxes kbanaian pitzer claremont edu old taxes are taxed dept economics pitzer college enough rep alan keyes latest gdp forecast please run alan
rec.sport.baseball	vegas odds does anyone have list vegas odds for teams making the world series appreciate mailing thanks rickc corp sgi com
rec.sport.baseball	rec sport baseball fantasy april participating league that uses standard rotisserie rules except that the following catagories are used for position players lowest batting average strike outs caught stealing errors for pitchers losses blown saves higest era taters allowed this the fifth year that participated this blowtisserie league last year won the pennant due primarily the fact that had terrible pitching would like lower batting average which rather high because have jose offerman who made for this helping lock first place errors anyway someone offered andres gallaraga for bud black can afford give bud black because still have kyle abbott however afraid andres actually doing well this season should make the trade not your comments will appreciated warren usui one with the universe scale from
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre idiot just wanted let everyone know that have lost what little respect have for jim lefebvre after seeing today cubs game first all how could start maldonado over may after the way may played the end last year and the way tore the cactus league how could you let him sit the bench not mention that right hander maddux started really blew top when lefebvre pinch hit for rick wilkins with tommy shields how can you that just because the lefty righty thing too much made that wilkins twice the hitter that shields then the next batter was jose vizcaino one the weakest hitters have ever seen and who had looked terrible bat all day and lefebre let him hit while may still sat the bench think even arnie harris was stunned this because showed may sitting the dugout while vizcaino was batting face lefebvre has got the worst manager baseball dishard cub fan
rec.sport.baseball	best second baseman thf ellis uchicago edu ted frank writes article mar sarah albany edu albnyvms bitnet writes personally think that alomar all hype producing incredibly now but the long run will never put the numbers that sandberg has for this moment alomar may the best but overall sandberg wins out long shot when sandberg was alomar age was putting seasons with power alomar oba points higher than sandberg career high alomar career high doubles and triples higher than sandberg sandberg still better than alomar but only because alomar hasn reached his full potential yet alomar got year headstart sandberg has hits sandberg didn have hits until was and likely put better career numbers than sandberg everything except home runs pass sandberg stolen bases sometime sandberg not particulary known for his stolen bases what competition did alomar have sandberg came year after ripken and the same year boggs gwynn and the other magicians less attention was given sandberg alomar the only one his class worth mediocre besides the numbers don count national league pitchers are much better pitchers larry someone elses account mark horan horan cse unl edu ianr unlvm
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre idiot bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes just wanted let everyone know that have lost what little respect have for jim lefebvre after seeing today cubs game first all how could etc vizcaino was batting face lefebvre has got the worst manager baseball dishard cub fan hey the only manager far lead the seattle mariners winning season out what fifteen give him some credit for that dave the machman machman washington edu david carroll big science hallelujah
rec.sport.baseball	giants quinn genius article odin corp sgi com luigi sgi com randy palermo writes will clark matt williams robbie thompson rod beck all came through the giants system geez everyone comes with clark williams thompson these guys were all that ancient history the last years noone right beck doesn count said solid years btw manwaring lead the last season throwing out baserunners excellent defensive catcher agree that his offensive skills are limited but does seem improving them let see what does the help pitchout every other pitch remember even bob brenly had good throwout percentage under roger craig who loved sacrifice the count for runners being thrown out course suffered from ball strike homers lot too not big fan manwaring dave
rec.sport.baseball	harry and candy but like the way butchers andres galarraga name all lighten harry skip like that couple years comes out like gahlah rrrraggggah and don forget his frequent references the great giant star bobby bonds harry great personality the reason like cubs broadcasts certainly not the quality the team chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	east best baseball there any doubt that this true after few down years the east back where was the early eighties with the emergence the and the yanks far and away the best while the west has the best team baseball and the reds aren bad either they have nothing else the giants astros and padres all have talent they not have the all arounf teams that are found the east and the dodgers just plain suck for the rockies who knows the east has the defending champs and although they lost lot free agency toronto still one the best baseball the orioles have the preseason favorite win the young mike mussina and you can never forget about ripken the signings harold baines and harold reynolds don hurt much either although always liked bill ripken while they let lot this summer randy milligan joe orsulak bill ripken bob milacki sam horn storm davis and craig lefferts they kept the heart their team intact predicted finish baltimore could biased opinion yankees toronto milwaukee detroit boston cleveland would have been higher not for the accident
rec.sport.baseball	belated predictions briefly since off sleep mle work pretty well for aaa players players who are and younger will tend have explosions their numbers whether mmle not the next years players who are and older those levels generally have inflated mle they about reliable having major league stats for player bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	quick way tell your local beat writer dumb sorry about that didn realise was being sarcastic about those sort things but tell you mike lupica daily news usually says some pretty funny things his shooting from the lip columns bob gaj
rec.sport.baseball	phils are still looking immaculate ladies and gentleman step one was taken the phils triumphant trip this year tonight yes that was english mulholland era after tonight game nice try drabek ninja jew
rec.sport.baseball	quick easy question here easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball what city the california angels play out richard rauser you have idea what you doing rauser sfu don worry about that professional wni outlaws this for living remember matter where you there you are banzai
rec.sport.baseball	finnally the phils have support the phillies were picked first someone replied that the people who picked them were the same people who picked the mets last year reply yeah that may true but this the phillies fritz
rec.sport.baseball	quick way tell your local beat writer dumb article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes sorry about that didn realise was being sarcastic about those sort things but tell you mike lupica daily news usually says some pretty funny things his shooting from the lip columns bob gaj know current trends continue the florida marlins will the first expansion team and outscore their opponents runs ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice legally sound you follow the law school you will probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	quick easy question rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes here easy question for someone who knows nothing about baseball what city the california angels play out anaheim richard rauser you have idea what you doing rauser sfu don worry about that professional wni outlaws this for living remember matter where you there you are banzai
rec.sport.baseball	trivia question all you trivia buffs have good one for you prior the foul bunt rule what the record for the most foul balls batter during one bat total pitches who was the batter who was the pitcher same except after the foul bunt rule associated data would nice too such date location teams etc bill wrl pmafire inel gov
rec.sport.baseball	best second baseman article pqvusinnmjm crcnis unl edu horan cse unl edu mark horan writes sandberg not particulary known for his stolen bases what competition did alomar have sandberg came year after ripken and the same year boggs gwynn and the other magicians less attention was given sandberg alomar the only one his class worth mediocre besides the numbers don count national league pitchers are much better pitchers you right thomas gonzalez sheffield and griffey don even begin compare with ripken boggs and gwynn wonder alomar gets much attention sandberg got attention his rookie year because his rookie year was terrible was his sophomore year national league pitchers are much better pitchers that certainly explains sheffield are you confusing have era that are lower because they don face with much better ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice legally sound you follow the law school you will probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	espn and expansion article ucdavis edu itlm dale ucdavis edu donnie trump writes was watching peter gammons espn last night and got little confused while talking about expansion started mentioning people who might benefit from the fringe players they facing mcgriff hitting home runs sheffield getting rbi and glavine winning games this was course all reference what happened the other times that baseball has expanded early late late what really confused though was the mention players who would well next year specifically roger clemens winning games and the likes mcgwire and gonzalez hitting home runs question how the hell will the rockies marlins help the the last time looked there wasn lot talent jumping leagues did miss something only you persist believing that peter gammons more knowledgable about baseball than the average mailbox okay overstating still the man actually had the gall say that one out every six pitchers the this year did not pitch the majors last year huh imo this expansion will not see the explosive jump offense that the other expansion drafts had since the talent was diluted over both leagues gammons defense because the talent drain came from the well some increase will seen also gets credit for mentioning that the jump offense was due also the rules changes after the season still full kurt bose daisy not rose kbos carina unm edu you take out all the this page book wally backman leafing though copy mets teammate lenny dykstra autobiography nails
rec.sport.baseball	was good player you shorts plus idiots article murdoch acc virginia edu drw delmarva evsc virginia edu david robert walker writes jackson kcr kcr kcr cws maj maj this what jackson looked like with everything converted neutral park the basis run production his equivalent average started was and let say had established his last two seasons level play not quite sure how these numbers are generated appears that neutral park and slugging tend drop actually loses two home runs they what equivalent average one thing when looking stats that you can see that took away some homers normally you expect some would homers for doubles triples big parks caught and for that matter you expect lots doubles and triples anyway but despite his speed hit very few doubles and not that many triples would expect his value have risen quite considerably neutral park that good very good fact but probably doesn make the top ten the league the best eqa the was dave winfield thomas was first first the was bonds incroyable tenth was bip roberts but better than any season the past five years joe carter about what mattingly had what felix jose had the last two years just ahead time raines five year average better than ryan klesko mles felix jose has been player fairly neutral park would offhand guess the around player maybe not even close got more attention from the media than was warranted from his baseball playing though his hype was lot better than his hitting that the basis for the net comments about him being overrated the media would have you beleive was great hitter think was good maybe very good hitter was imo something like the best hitter the majors put him about there too note hadn realized the media had hyped him much thought was always viewed them better football player and only baseball did only have one rbi season and wasn winning note maybe have harped this bit the past but there mistake being made the sdcn they are known this group with respect players like and deion and lofton and perhaps others find that you look large group players their past major and minor league numbers will predict their future numbers fairly well their are some caveats the younger they are the less good the prediction the lower the minor league the less good imagine the more recent the player has left college ball etc now course this prediction involves quite bit error sometimes player with poor mle dave justice the ventura becomes star some hitters develop shane mack brian downing some don oddibe mcdowell mickey brantley this error involves real things there are real reasons why oddibe didn hit and shane did may who knows involve parks and batting coaches and wheaties and injuries and lifting and but still you have this big pool players and things work pretty well one the reasons for these predictions accuracy the common background the players one thing know about professional baseball players that all them almost all have spent good deal time playing ball their backgrounds are similar what hasn been established what happens when you encounter player with different background there some reason believe that deion lofton tony gwynn ainge has such different background that the standard model and standard assumptions fit this person slowly hasn been established that you can use mle with two sport players hasn been established that you can but then statistics after all art personally think otherwise lucid individuals continually make completely nonsensical statements about and deion and lofton look those good but not great minor league numbers they say well what happens those numbers simply don mean what they usually mean might mean that ken lofton suddenly has better year houston than tuscon might mean that deion suddenly has better half year atlanta than greenville then again might not ken and deion might right back the tank this year live those poor mle but you guys don know what worse you don know that you don and you don know that there are other players you won know about injuries and lifting and wheaties again you seem think that the model perfect and eternal not got some error well bill guilford still thinks hairy butt truly ugly might right
rec.sport.baseball	belated predictions article mssc zyo jsc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes said the braves would improve injury well here how javier lopez better catcher than greg olson ryan klasko better firstbaseman than bream chipper jones better shortstop than anyone the braves put out there mel nieves better than nixon sanders that how forces them play the young guys bob gaj continue amazed these comments while lopez might some day better catcher than olson find totally amazing for you suggest that this year old with three seasons professional baseball now better than olson five year mlb veteran who noted for his ability call game and who has better than average arm perhaps you are talking about hitting well sure lopez might hit better perhaps probably will but has there ever the history baseball been year old younger rookie catcher who compared favorably among all league catchers terms defense and brought bat wasn yes ivan rodriguez last year batted and threw out the baserunners not too shabby for rookie from years old last year sandy alomar who was supposed that good his rookie year not wasn benito santiago who was supposed that good his rookie year not can continue this thread with the others mentioned but you get the point you and others seem quick dismiss the seasoned veterans favor the hot young rookies perhaps just perhaps the management team the pennant winning braves knows something more than you and perhaps what they know that very very few and year old rookies come the majors and make impact the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com roy cabaniss wait till tommy meets the lord and western kentucky university finds out that wearing pinstripes all opinions contained herein gaylord perry talking about lasorda are all mine own and that the sin baseball what way spend day
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre idiot totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like single hitter there who swings count with maddux pitching and your teams down run and you haven touched the ball all day also think too much made that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games get the feeling steve stone knows lot more about what the cubs should doing than lefebre does harry said best when stated after another terrible vizcaino bat can wait til sandberg returns
rec.sport.baseball	new uniforms apr virginia edu tek virginia edu todd karlin writes usually one two teams changes their logo minor uniform change per season but the past few seasons have been incredible any thoughts the new old reds uniforms remember seeing pete rose rookie card and unless miss guess was wearing the exact same duds the mets how about doc performance today have reinserted the mets patch the shoulder and changed the mets insgnia the front the jersey knowledge the first time that has been changed since and reminds little the dodger logo far know toronto pittsburgh and new york change their uniforms every year every other year new york will say mets cursive new york cursive new york all caps minor changes but they change them often last year think they had new york all caps did toronto have blue jays toronto last year what about pittsburgh many teams have opted for return previous style uniform least uniforms that look more traditional phillies reds expos white sox padres etc and the once bright colors have been altered gray the trend has also seen the newer baseball fields resembling the parks the early years opposed the cookie cutter saucer stadiums construcrted throughout the sixties hate the gray they should opt for more color like the white sox hate white team versus gray team spring training uniforms look much better with salaries now reaching unbelievable highs one the comissioner office and inter league play the horizon nice see that baseball least looks like was meant
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre idiot news cso uiuc edu ada uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood writes totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like single hitter there who swings count with maddux pitching and your teams down run and you haven touched the ball all day this easy trivia question the answer any cub not named sandberg grace also think too much made that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games get the feeling steve stone knows lot more about what the cubs should doing than lefebre does harry said best when stated after another terrible vizcaino bat can wait til sandberg returns david nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix stupid stupidest theory ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who the dangerous cult the bds the batf
rec.sport.baseball	billy gets cheers baltimore article apr jhuvms hcf jhu edu doctor jhuvms hcf jhu edu jason abner miller writes orioles texas camden yards april opening day batting for texas playing second base billy ripken the hometown crowd gave their favorite baseman minute standing ovation billy wearing flashy shades took the cheers smiling and waving consummate role player the words caller jon miller tim hulett failed receive similar cheers when announced mainly because didn have the courtesy show wasn hulett injured yesterday after being hit the face with ball while running bases heard something about him recieving stiches and possible broken nose the park fernando was warmly received good see that let see how they feel when and with era have doubts about fernando when cal was announced jon miller says seems like yesterday when this young man began consecutive game streak time all star time mvp time gold glover our future hall fame shortsop batting cal ripken the standing lasted about seconds less than billy blargh well when fan favorite gets dumped gonna get outstanding ovation his first return let add the ovations cal has recieved over the years during the game and compare that billy btw sutcliffe getting knocked around pretty good rangers the bottom the fourth rob
rec.sport.baseball	quick way tell your local beat writer dumb article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes anyone who writes dean palmer has homers this pace have home runs should shot the dodgers after one inning play have committed one error this rate they have errors this season well maybe right this time warren usui one with the universe scale from
rec.sport.baseball	designated hitter rule ekdfc ttacs ttu edu ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons writes apr bsu ucs ecgillespi leo bsuvc bsu edu writes doing postition paper the designated hitter rule any information even opinions would greatly apprecitated ecgillespie magic should rescinded the rules say baseball game between two teams nine players each let keep that way not any more the rules don say that that pretty dumb argument david nieporent only one thing wrong with theory niepornt phoenix stupid stupidest theory ever heard princeton edu baltimore orioles who the dangerous cult the bds the batf
rec.sport.baseball	rickey henderson article apr msstate edu isis msstate edu jiann ming writes say buy out henderson contract and let him bag groceries next season you able sign him for nothing that goes for any bitching ball player stay school you have lot learn
rec.sport.baseball	designated hitter rule actually there can any number players side you can have man roster man roster etc ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	why the redflops can but won win don knock vaughn for being spring training hitter but regular season hitter around games played isn indication how good any hitter and the quality pitching way down ryan robbins penobscot hall university maine maine maine edu
rec.sport.baseball	david wells has david wells landed with team yet think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto
rec.sport.baseball	cleveland tragedy article apr lehigh edu gaf lehigh edu gail fullman writes wonder ojeda will sue anyone because his career may over not due the accident just got really bad haircut now you meant due his floating fastball well mark atchison atchison cis ohio state edu graduate student the computer science dept the ohio state university not ohio state university any plagiarisms seen above are not own
rec.sport.baseball	pinch hitters was denny walling rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert said and thought mota didn really start pinch hitting for living until after depends what you mean for living was the year led the league pinch hit bats with but been getting lot abs earlier than that and was never full time player abs early his career year just before going the dodgers and the peak years talking about guy with year career outfielder career batting average and career hits david tate not know what about you that closes posing and opens only something understands can the pocket your glove deeper than pete rose cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	marlins win marlins win dwarner journalism indiana edu said only caught the tail end this one espn does anyone have report look all that teal bleah maybe just but the combination those young faces peeking out from under oversized aqua helmets screams little league every fibre being david tate not know what about you that closes posing and opens only something understands can the pocket your glove deeper than pete rose cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	new uniforms article vwc lru usenet ucs indiana edu bodom silver ucs indiana edu ian odom writes far know toronto pittsburgh and new york change their uniforms every year every other year new york will say mets cursive new york cursive new york all caps minor changes but they change them often last year think they had new york all caps did toronto have blue jays toronto last year what about pittsburgh depends which uniforms you are talking about for the last couple years believe toronto and pittsburgh has used the same uniforms least very similar the home jerseys had the team nick name blue jays pirates but the road jerseys had the name the city toronto pittsburgh believe this the way most teams design their uniforms chris
rec.sport.baseball	lose openr home rangers sutcliffe gives hrs gonzales palmer and mills gives gonzales lose sutcliffe texas lefferts baltimore sutcliffe jody hagins hagins avlin com data general corporation linthicum
rec.sport.baseball	mlb logos part have posted the logos the east teams alt binaries pictures misc hopefully finish the series next week with the west darren darren reiniger reiniger dal arishem dal centre for marine geology dalhousie university halifax canada people who wonder where this generation going should remind themselves where came from the first place
rec.sport.baseball	predictions thought post predicted standings since find those posted others interesting sorry this after opening day certify that these were completed before the first pitch east new york yankees the most only improved team this division toronto blue jays stewart and morris way milwaukee brewers they always seem better than expect baltimore orioles pitching but devareaux anderson and hoiles will drop cleveland indians still don seem know what they are doing detroit tigers all key players but fryman are another year past peak boston red sox any team with clemens and viola might beter than west this division was the toughest for pick whoever the top gets pitching should win minnesota twins young pitchers seem have best chance for success texas rangers don know why have them here jose canseco chicago white sox frank thomas but pitching oakland larussa the best manager and would keep any team close seattle mariners like pinella but don see much here kansas city royals will score runs california angels will win games east montreal expos good all around plus wallach louis cardinals jeffries whiten jose clark galarraga pittsburgh pirates youngsters will take more slack than expected new york mets some good players still not team philadelphia phillies they don impress florida marlins they know what they doing chicago cubs they don know what they doing west the best teams baseball are this division atlanta braves awesome starters but offense could concern cincinnati reds would not surprise they won all houston astros any team that signs uribe won contend closer than san diego padres plantier could the sheffield los angeles dodgers better pitching than the giants san francisco giants because the rockies just stink colorado rockies will become the seattle mariners the nlcs montreal atlanta braves fans yes probably contradicting what said west comment alcs new york minnesota world series new york montreal hating the yankees will fashionable again mvp barry bonds maybe mcgriff young jose rijo mvp frank thomas will deserve again but fielder might win young roger clemens least will deserve again david kenney kenney tribe ingr com
rec.sport.baseball	day day day disabled list questions curiousity whenever person put the day day day the person the list longer than the specificed time seen person the day for maybe months last year don remember what just need little clarification the disabled list specifications scotyy scott allen steinbrink cleveland cavaliers nba finals netcom derich netcom com cleveland indians world series digex derich digex com cleveland browns super bowl
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said know that very very few players this age make much impact the bigs especially when they haven even played aaa ball yes but this irrelevant you talking about averages when have lots information about this player particular base our decisions might well say know that very very few people are more than feet tall chances are that manute bol really only foot maybe need improve writing skills lopez who very ordinary defensively not likely hit well age having not played aaa level that probably not good idea rush him into the braves lineup why isn lopez likely hit that well hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such hit better absolute scale than olson berryhill did lot for rushing there really qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires period adjustment and don believe there then wouldn you rather waste lopez year old good season than his year old very good season his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more his prime you get use lopez was hitting over when was cut from spring training what does have earn chance maybe not full time job but least couple starts and few for him prove his worth gee don know abs sounds pretty good about good your reasoning that the kid should play back role rather than start every day aaa talk about the point was not that significant sample but rather that hadn done anything spring training cause even blockhead manager question whether his minor league numbers were for real send him down until gets warmed most players are not ready for the bigs age most players are never ready for the bigs what does this have with javy lopez most players benefit rather than being stagnant hurt playing aaa see above most catchers need solid defensively players help their clubs the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year but could apply the same reasoning frank thomas barry bonds most players aren that good they probably won that good this year either now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities call games work with the pitchers throw out runners and demonstrated inabilities hit their way out soap bubble not superstars mind you but solid experienced veterans not superstars not stars not even good players maybe average being charitable the braves have very solid lineup with two big bats the outfield excellent platoon first solid mvp candidate third and one the better hitting shortstops ummm justice very fine hitter pendleton might have another big year his bat but might also spend the season hamstring hell gant big question mark the bream hunter platoon decent not excellent and has rotten obp slg depending who blauser very valuable bat for shortstop the center field platoon will probably hit however good lopez bat might given the above won much better than what they have offset the differential experience and defensive ability wanna bet the difference between lopez bat and olson berryhill could runs over the course the season given choice between player with experience and player who can play take the latter every time the kid will improve playing aaa just like keith mitchell did just surprised have spell all this out goodness you believe the other poster who thinks lopez being held down because his future earning potential that was and you far your only counter proposal that they really don understand how good lopez overvalue experience some combination the two think interpretation was more flattering the organization are they idiots who have built this ballclub well argued but inflammatory reply deleted david tate not know what about you that closes posing and opens only something understands can the pocket your glove deeper than pete rose cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes well perhaps the braves had one else worth playing this year would lopez there but they have others worth playing least their opinion catcher their weakest position with the possible exception second base they have chance simultaneously replace their biggest offensive problem spot with well above average offensive player and acclimate highly promising potential star with pressure him carry the team and they want play olson and berryhill instead disagree that don think tangible skill any more than leadership don deny that real skill and that some catchers may much better than others but really don see any way that could ever know who they are nichols law catcher defense eerily accurate far too often for take defensive assessments catchers very seriously sorry new don know nichols law catcher defensive reputation will inversely proportional his recent offensive level performance thus mickey tettleton goes the media from being hit defensive whiz slugging thumb finger two short years the rule doesn apply perceived superstars who get the gold glove offensive transfer effect instead greg olson probably considered good defensive catcher precisely because can hit don believe catchers era but interested pitchers eras with different catchers aren they the same thing other words know more than they the only logic behind different decision than would make must financial either that just stupidity presume feel this way about other franchises than atlanta course fair the young players does make organizational sense think does well does make organizational sense one can hardly fault them for their decisions mean please don tell how run business especially when being successful one could make the same sort argument other cases pete rose pursuing cobb record was huge gate attraction and national media magnet the reds made lot money off that they also wasted the prime eric davis that may good business but that doesn mean don loathe them for david tate not know what about you that closes posing and opens only something understands can the pocket your glove deeper than pete rose cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for tue apr mlb standings and scores for tuesday april including yesterday games national west won lost pct last streak home road atlanta braves won cincinnati reds won san diego padres san francisco giants colorado rockies lost houston astros lost los angeles dodgers lost national east florida marlins won new york mets won philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates louis cardinals chicago cubs lost montreal expos lost american west won lost pct last streak home road oakland athletics won texas rangers won california angels chicago white sox minnesota twins seattle mariners kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox won new york yankees won milwaukee brewers toronto blue jays baltimore orioles lost cleveland indians lost detroit tigers lost yesterday scores national league american league montreal new york cincinnati cleveland atlanta texas chicago baltimore los angeles boston florida kansas city philadelphia detroit houston oakland colorado california idle new york chicago idle pittsburgh idle milwaukee idle louis idle minnesota idle san diego idle seattle idle san franciscoidle toronto idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	braves win opener well maddux looked excellent the braves shutout the cubs justice drove the only run with rbi single the first get ready for him have monster year now hitting the ball the opposite field with lot power with his natural power right field and his good batting eye stays healthy which should his back full strength this year should get over rbi and close another note the marlins got off good start beating the dodgers believe the score was but not sure wish them and the rockies well this year hell think would funny watch the dodgers hit the cellar again this year dan smith
rec.sport.baseball	rickey henderson article apr msstate edu isis msstate edu jiann ming writes article vinns appserv eng sun com str maredsous eng sun com todd rader writes stay school you have lot learn learn what know that million dollars lot money know rickey henderson doesn have career out baseball know didn have baseball wouldn making near the money now and michael jackson jack nicholson and bill cosby wouldn making near much money they weren entertainers what your point just don understand how some athlete who only plays sport for living for millions dollars say not being paid enough nobody will sign him for his asking price will the one hurting the will still win without him will they you can usually take away one the team best players and still expect them win you think the pirates will continue win without barry bonds remeber many these athletes have nothing not for their athletic ability nothing they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens and they are complaining not enough pay again jack nicholson gets paid much more than most hard working citizens and much more than rickey henderson for that matter don have problem with them making millions problem when the say they aren being paid enough when they already get million also their numbers get worse the reason the latter often happens that many these folks start making the real big salaries late their career when they are the decline there are exceptions course dave parker fell apart after making his first million because put most that million his nose jim mann stratus computer jmann vineland pubs stratus com
rec.sport.baseball	white sox mailing list gang like subscribe the white sox mailing list one exists can someone please mail the address thanks alot john jhunter mta
rec.sport.baseball	new uniforms while enjoy the trend towards the more classic style uniform and disagree with the person who wants return the non gray road uniforms should remembered that one the not the reason for the redesigning uniforms especially hats the new road all green caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap the marketing money made sales new merchandise jeffrey popovich jpopovich guvax georgetown edu
rec.sport.baseball	help looking for cleveland sports mailing list info looking for the address join the cleveland sports mailing list anyone knows would greatful they could email copy you are member just mail one the list letters could probably figure out from there thanks fffff michael fath dept microbiology and molecular genetics fff harvard medical school boston fath mbcrr harvard edu
rec.sport.baseball	brewer notes mar music lib matc edu pfan pfan music lib matc edu writes for those you who know who bernie brewer back the team mascot you will was given his walking papers few years ago but the fans voted him back last season and will perched the his familiar home the outfield and will again slide down into barrel beer when home runs are hit that great hear just may have take raod trip milwakee this year and see that again last time saw bernie brewer was the age and now thanks for this post one final note bill spiers leading the brewers with rbi exhibition play looks like bouncing back nicely from back problems good bill getting better form the limited coverage get here iowa know that this will great season for the brew crew pete fanning computer operator leadership action office information technology not position milwaukee area technical college mcgannon email pfan music lib matc edu internet pete fanning fidonet org
rec.sport.baseball	grateful dead article maine maine edu maine maine edu writes being baseball fan and fan the above mentioned band was wondering anyone could clue whether the dead members sang the national anthem todays giant opener would imagine that bit too early for anyone know but answer would greatly appreciated understanding that the dead will sing the the giants home opener mon the giants are opening today louis luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems shoreline blvd view play accordion jail that the law
rec.sport.baseball	day day day disabled list questions article derichc gje fja netcom com derich netcom com scotty tissue writes whenever person put the day day day the person the list longer than the specificed time seen person the day for maybe months last year don remember what just need little clarification the disabled list specifications believe are down two the day and the day don remember day but rather day anyways gone now the period length minimum not maximum you can keep guy the day for long you want still certified injured the player must periodically evaluated determine still injured thus you cannot park player the who maybe out options and you not wish expose waivers you get someone qualified for the day that reduces the frequency evaluations there longer believe any limit the number players you can place the when there was you often had choose and juggle your injured players between the lists king sparky banaian taxes new taxes kbanaian pitzer claremont edu old taxes are taxed dept economics pitzer college enough rep alan keyes latest gdp forecast please run alan
rec.sport.baseball	sanford article apr msstate edu jazz msstate edu jiann ming writes does any know sanford rockies pitcher got cut use with the reds but was drafted the expansion draft believe was sent down aaa
rec.sport.baseball	predictions for article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego oswego edu kevin mundstock writes since everyone else seems running wild with predictions decided add own fuel the fire they might seem bit normal but there are few albeit small surprises manager the year buck showalter what makes you think buck will still new york year end with george back keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you over head have yours platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.baseball	new uniforms jpopovich guvax acc georgetown edu writes while enjoy the trend towards the more classic style uniform and disagree with the person who wants return the non gray road uniforms should remembered that one the not the reason for the redesigning uniforms especially hats the new road all green caps and the cardinal navy blue road cap the marketing money made sales new merchandise kidding just ask the white sox too bad really john neuharth neuharth washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre idiot rickc krill corp sgi com richard casares writes article apr bsu ucs bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes just wanted let everyone know that have lost what little respect have for jim lefebvre after seeing today cubs game dishard cub fan yes also wonder they can win with this manager never believed managers had that much with winning until saw how much they had with losing like the mariners lot but heart belongs the cubs you can imagine frustration when saw the cubs nabbing lefebvre arhgghrghh john neuharth neuharth washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	marlins win marlins win genetic pitt edu david tate writes dwarner journalism indiana edu said only caught the tail end this one espn does anyone have report look all that teal bleah maybe just but the combination those young faces peeking out from under oversized aqua helmets screams little league every fibre being hmm seems the little leaguers didn too badly against hershiser strawberry davis and the rest the dodgers yesterday eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com
rec.sport.baseball	harry and candy violet ccit arizona edu greg franklin writes rvesterm vma edu writes watching cubs rockies spring training game and thought you all like know the particular way that harry caray butchers maldonado seems mal dal nado but like the way butchers andres galarraga name comes out like gahlah rrrraggggah and don forget his frequent references the great giant star bobby bonds what about thaaammy thotha for one was really sorry hear that the cubs had sent heathcliff slocumb the minors eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said know that very very few players this age make much impact the bigs especially when they haven even played aaa ball yes but this irrelevant you talking about averages when have lots information about this player particular base our decisions you really have that much information him really why isn lopez likely hit that well hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such hit better absolute scale than olson berryhill did lot don know you tell what percentage players reach exceed their mle their rookie season talking about you know for rushing there really qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires period adjustment and don believe there then wouldn you rather waste lopez year old good season than his year old very good season his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more his prime you get use that were your purpose maybe offerman spent getting acclimated you will the dodgers team paid big price that season perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road you really think they would have done what they did they were competing for pennant lopez was hitting over when was cut from spring training what does have earn chance maybe not full time job but least couple starts and few for him prove his worth the point was not that significant sample but rather that hadn done anything spring training cause even blockhead manager question whether his minor league numbers were for real send him down until gets warmed for stat head amazed that you put any credence spring training did you notice who got those hits off are you going tell that doesn make difference the kid will improve playing aaa just like keith mitchell did wait minute missed something here first forget keith mitchell are you saying that kid who moves from aaa and then does not improve would have been better off making direct leap the majors player does well and then does not improve aaa isn that sign that maybe doesn belong the bigs now keith mitchell recall stat books handy surprise jumped from atlanta did well that was returned the minors where didn very well all now his career jeopardy how does fit with your point good mle moved him right the big club now one step away from being traded moved out baseball duh that was and you far your only counter proposal that they really don understand how good lopez overvalue experience some combination the two think interpretation was more flattering the organization well cast lot certainly you may understand better how good lopez and may overvalue experience but neither one runs baseball team the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	marlins first rbi article psgriinni rpco acslab umbc edu umbc edu writes hey was watching the orioles game yesterday monday when report came the booth that the first runs came three run single did this really happen did how they said that the leadoff man knocked them what exactly happened thanks walt weiss tripled just barely inside the right field line and into the corner driving santiago and conine these were the first two rbis the third came later when weiss was knocked daniel
rec.sport.baseball	picks with only one comment article psbg inngjj master rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert writes article jfr msstate edu jfr msstate edu jackie russell writes psg pitt edu paul galvanek writes national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees the and has team been nicely setup this years and years come braves don think that the all star team will able beat this may appropriate comparison the yankees finshed and finshing and games out first and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that why they play the season the other hand still picking the braves all the way surely you didn intend compare the reds with the philidelphia the yankees were finishing team that was good the yankees while the yankees had aged some from their peak years ruth and gehrig couldn play every position simultaneously imo given the various ages the braves and reds this season that the braves will closer their peak while the reds have slightly passed their peak also you going compare braves and yankees more appropriate comparison the braves might the yankees after falling short two years row exciting world series both teams won will win the series this year despite the heroics some old fart the other team casey stengel dave winfield eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	quick way tell your local beat writer dumb article apr locus com aardvark spica locus com warren usui writes article apr pilot njin net gajarsky pilot njin net bob gajarsky hobokenite writes anyone who writes dean palmer has homers this pace have home runs should shot now the other hand juan gonzales probably does have shot the dodgers after one inning play have committed one error this rate they have errors this season well maybe right this time actually you might underpredicting eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	yankkes game closer god hope don have put with this kind junk all season article axe acadiau axe acadiau jason walter works writes the yankees are now one game closer the east pennant they clobbered cleveland fine pitching performance key and two homeruns tartabull first baseball out this season and three how many home runs tartabull just right you must thinking dean palmer juan gonzalez both texas who each had homers run homer nokes for all you who didn pick boggs your pools tough break had couple hits and drove couple runs with many more don know how many follow but was for yanks mattingly for glove and mvp and abbot for young spare please
rec.sport.baseball	marlins win marlins win look all that teal bleah indeed the color teal team uniforms any indication the future the marlins are dire trouble refer the san jose sharks for proof but have hope for the marlins was sometime member the rene lachemann fan club the oakland coliseum and have deep respect for the guy gem and course walt weiss gives that franchise class but yeah whoever designed those uniforms was guilty paucity style and imagination ugghhh lloyd nebres berkeley internet lloyd uclink berkeley edu vox never underestimate the bandwidth carrying ton roms
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article mssc ril netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes your speculation and others that lopez will produce better than the two proven veterans nothing more than speculation matter how well founded your speculation that the two proven veterans will produce better than lopez also more than speculation does make difference whether the speculation well founded not obviously the braves believe they can win with the catching they have and agree they change their minds they call lopez though this good point the one speculation safer because can reversed cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	call for votes dtbl mvp and please vote the regular season the davis tabletop baseball league has just come end help with next year league would appreciate you would take couple minutes and vote for our league mvp and winners these awards and players standings them will inflate their salaries for next year league please vote for each category order for example barry bonds frank thomas biff pocoroba shooty babitt lips lundy please not vote for pitchers mvp voting for this league each team the league gets one candidate for mvp and one for defensive position listed where applicable along with abbreviation their performance there excellent very good average poor very poor thanks please reply april for the record the season was games long thanks for your help mvp candidates name rbi ibb obp slg def griffey emartinez sandberg ventura mcgriff mcgwire ralomar dykstra butler deer bonds hrbek jgonzalez some players missed time due injuries others were sat down the end avoid the possibility injury there are better players than those this list but each team gets one and only one candidate some players played more than games due being traded teams with more games left the same time span now the pitchers name era sho dmartinez dibble rijo mussina benes khill smoltz cone drabek tewksbury clemens tomlin farr there you have curt schilling threw perfect game during the year and ken hill threw hitter rob dibble had pitched scoreless innings start the year only choke the last two games cost the perot giant sucking sounds playoff spot you want stats more players they are available request please take the time reply you can thanks gary huckabay kevin kerr the feldstein the mid living argument for there anything love more than huge existence parallel sig someone quoting lines add universes new ones and consecutive posts too ooo ooo david zavatson mein schatz ist soweit unsere liebe ist vorbei
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers since was the one responsible for these divergent threads approx posts going back the braves could better off injury happens may well inject little more fuel the flame back the beginning spring training though lopez would make the squad easily olson was still recovering from his late season injury knee believe and there were questions whether would able play before june and then berryhill was dinged was looking forward this because believe that lopez can hit and field the position before last season was the braves defensive catcher prospect while brian deak was the braves offensive catcher prospect besides olson and berryhill couldn hit their way out wet cardboard box and don walk enough useful but olson recovered quickly berryhill recovered and the braves went with the two vets still say that one those two had been down the start the season wouldn have gotten his job back there certain logic keeping olson and berryhill around after all catchers are short supply and suffer from wear and tear there are teams out there without one average catcher california and seattle come mind certainly trying move olson berryhill through waivers would unlikely work plus you have eat that salary which isn huge but isn tiddleywinks either think olson about berryhill but that only what recall yes think arbitration eligibility may have role play this also what that the year players aren eligible for arbitration only the that were the roster the longest are eligible course the system may change but the extent that change not yet known from business standpoint may make sense keep lopez down until june the first time olson berryhill the still disappointed that lopez isn the team still prefer think myself fan when comes the braves and the truth that rather see our best team the field which imo includes lopez course today play the cubs hopefully won need him for the schuerholz cox conversation imagine went like this remember they both been the following not meant read the humor impaired cox sent jones down his fielding could little smoother besides blauser can hit and his fielding better than used schuerholz well have send nieves down too deion just won sign that baseball only contract can count him october have keep nixon around for the defense besides gorman not ready give billy hatcher yet once hatcher gone and deion signs can move nixon for frankie rodriguez that ought give some pitching depth cox yep that nice too bad deion won sign look for nieves when justice starts having berry berry back problems again now what about klesko schuerholz well still got fork out another mil for bream keep klesko either lose the money cabrera keep dangling sid front dal maxwell but somehow doesn seem the same first jeffries for jose and now whiten for clark gets rid brian jordan then have believe that and whitey herzog switched bodies the winter meetings cox keep trying bream and wait til the trading deadline for hunter klesko platoon maybe can get few extra bats for cabrera while wait try california snow starts slowly maybe whiteydal will bite sid and that doesn work then perhaps sid knees could persuaded act there always the day mwa schuerholz what about caraballo cox well not that much better than lemke maybe starts richmond start walking more besides going arbitration eligible better stretch him out that actually get some value from him before makes the big bucks schuerholz now let see that leaves lopez cox nooooo gotta keep lopez sure didn think olson would recover this quickly maybe can talk caminiti into running into him again schuerholz nope lopez has gotta you know that get million arbitration may well put off that one extra year besides until olson shown his stuff little bit can trade him besides berryhill left handed hitter you know how rare that cox don you mean left handed whiffer pretty common you ask mean made pat borders look good the world series pat borders schuerholz hey you the one who wouldn write lopez into the lineup cox well you the one who went out and got jeff reardon besides thought lopez wouldn used our pitching staff stuff got some time with them this spring looked pretty good come surely only need keep one stiff behind the plate schuerholz yeah but which stiff whichever one keep will hurt may cox you made your point keep them both surely one them will the june the latest then can call lopez and then can win games the pennant the world series there with john mcgraw casey stengel earl weaver they laughed toronto but have you ever had deal with george bell finally get just reward mwa schuerholz easy bobby have you been taking those happy pills left around chuck tanner why you ever hire that guy anyhow cox don ask ask ted eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	binaca blast deep drive derby bbddd returns the engimatic vincent gray writes king cogsci ucsd edu jonathan king writes even less publicized than this however was that the didn come from the padres but from named source and that the money didn the blue jays toronto the money was diverted into london bank account owned shadowy character named vincent gray should lucky the account number must have been rejected come everybody the net has heard about plausible deniability you not fooling anybody soon after that gray and palmer sent word ottawa that canada had achieved absolute superiority over the united states the field baseballistic research she controlled both the acker cook pitch alike contest and the binaca blast research institute the prime minister smiled hope not think that would inadvertantly give any pleasure mulroney really ruins day note how quick vince was make the inference that post claimed that mulroney was smiling the baseballistics news this sure looks like guilty knowledge realizing the taterific importance this work john palmer and concluded that might able pool some resources the grand who will the stars this year can anyone hope combat brad arnsberg record start last year the early money has tom tom bolton who contributed that clutch grandslam his first appearance but expect lots strong contenders this year many them right here san diego jking
rec.sport.baseball	cubs behind marlins how noticed that has become fashionable lately rsb predict the marlines finish ahead the cubs how first base grace destrade could destrade the second coming cecil fielder doubt destrade performs the height expectations then even otherwise edge cubs second base sandberg barberie contest sandberg will back may edge cubs big edge shortstop vizcaino weiss vizcaino excellent defensively but automatic out bat weiss isn much better with the stick even third base dave magadan buechelle magadan has higher obp and better hitter buechelle has more power and better defensively think edge florida catcher santiago wilkins wilkins but santiago better edge marlins left field conine maldonado wow for yesterday know conine has potential watched him play omaha the last couple years until actually proves himself give maldonado the edge however like this position where florida might even better the player there has huge year center scott pose wilson may edge may even wilson hopefully the cubs will use may and save wilson for pinch running and the like may isn ken griffey but will hit with homers plays full time right felix sosa felix jose has occasional power and bad obp does sosa but sosa also has speed and good glove edge cubs starters aquino armstrong hammond lot fifth starters here the cubs won remind anyone the brave staff but morgan castillo guzman hibbard average better than the marline edge cubs middle relief even the cubs have some decent middlemen and the marlins carpenter anf klink decent but are assenmacher and mcelroy closer healthy harvey big edge the marlins meyers decent but harvey course the cubs may have few more games save look for saves blown from meyers and saves blown with better era for harvey edge florida overall edge chicago neither these teams will threaten win anything course msilverm nyx edu cubs one likes believe the freedom baseball geddy lee
rec.sport.baseball	when did dodgers move from article apr ncar ucar edu tparker music scd ucar edu tom parker writes have bet with buddy when the dodgers moved from does anyone know what year they moved the dodgers first year was
rec.sport.baseball	best record ever baseball article psl jinnam jhunix hcf jhu edu admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu steve liu writes all teams believe the cubs have the best record ever baseball sometime way far back and something think was the cleveland indians with
rec.sport.baseball	predictions article apr infonode ingr com kenney tribe ingr com writes thought post predicted standings since find those posted others interesting sorry this after opening day certify that these were completed before the first pitch west the best teams baseball are this division atlanta braves awesome starters but offense could concern cincinnati reds would not surprise they won all houston astros any team that signs uribe won contend closer than san diego padres plantier could the sheffield los angeles dodgers better pitching than the giants san francisco giants because the rockies just stink colorado rockies will become the seattle mariners the nlcs montreal atlanta braves fans yes probably contradicting what said west comment alcs new york minnesota world series new york montreal hating the yankees will fashionable again mvp barry bonds maybe mcgriff guarantee that bonds wins the mvp the giants will finish higher than luigi randy palermo luigi csd sgi com fax silicon graphics computer systems shoreline blvd view play accordion jail that the law
rec.sport.baseball	reds without sleeves was new uniforms the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly yet another reason why they won win the west eric roush fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu marxist the groucho sort grafitti paris tanstaafl although the internet comes close
rec.sport.baseball	joe robbie stadium not for baseball article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock writes from iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock subject joe robbie stadium not for baseball date apr gmt did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed the picture joe robbie stadium the opening day season preview section usa today any reason given for this would assume that the words saw the picture indicated that those seats will not available for baseball games you look the picture the diamond the stadium relation the areas marked not for baseball those seats just look terrible for watching baseball now they should happen reach the post season would imagine that they would consider opening some those seats but that surely worry the future sam lubchansky spl cwru edu the champion people see what they like the loser they see what they actually are and they treat him with scorn sugary condiments secure initial pleasure but fermented grain decidedly more parsimonious time
rec.sport.baseball	best lifetime record baseball history article apr corning com cecce corning com writes speaking the marlins winning the opener based lifetime percentage games won who has the second best record baseball history soon the best record again had guess would forced say the yankees the other hand the blue jays might there too hmmmmm tony blue jays way hell but the yankees probably remember the yankees had the best record any team the and probably take the through well
rec.sport.baseball	yankkes game closer article axe acadiau axe acadiau jason walter works writes the yankees are now one game closer the east pennant they clobbered cleveland fine pitching performance key and two homeruns tartabull first baseball out this season and three run homer nokes for all you who didn pick boggs your pools tough break had couple hits and drove couple runs with many more follow the yanks beat and coming team youngsters the indians the yankees only need win more games get the division yanks mattingly for glove and mvp and abbot for young jason jason going yankee game wed night cleveland stadium happy but cleveland very bad team who lost severalrs they were and coming team now they are just sad excuse for better average abbot will not win the melido perez will bold prediction they come well herot last place the end the season mike lurie speaks and the world listens
rec.sport.baseball	yankee meditations you realize that the yankees are paying matt nokes dollars this year geesh and maas only gets the way the yankees are going win all yankees are the best the way snow yankee will rookie the year
rec.sport.baseball	joe robbie stadium not for baseball article apr oswego oswego edu iacs oswego edu kevin mundstock writes did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed the picture joe robbie stadium the opening day season preview section usa today any reason given for this yes and the answer simple create better feeling the park the seats will folded back for baseball games where you saw those words
rec.sport.baseball	mile high runs how many runs will scored denver don know but some idea can gotten looking the runs scored mile high stadium during the last few years the bears zephyrs tenure the american association here the total runs scored per game zephyrs games all league games and the ratio found the same ratios for year rpg lea ratio hrpg lea ratio seems pretty clear that denver will have large effect runs scored stick with prediction from last year that one the top the this year and fairly large effect homeruns though apparently not large atlanta wrigley cincinnati and san diego still ought pretty decent home run park john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	picks with only one comment article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes article psbg inngjj master rose hulman edu rickert nextwork rose hulman edu john rickert writes article jfr msstate edu jfr msstate edu jackie russell writes psg pitt edu paul galvanek writes national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees the and has team been nicely setup this years and years come braves don think that the all star team will able this may appropriate comparison the yankees finshed and finshing and games out first and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that why they play the season the other hand still picking the braves all the way surely you didn intend compare the reds with the philidelphia the yankees were finishing team that was good the yankees while the yankees had aged some from their peak years ruth and gehrig couldn play every position simultaneously imo given the various ages the braves and reds this season that the braves will closer their peak while the reds have slightly passed their peak also you going compare braves and yankees more appropriate comparison the braves might the yankees after falling short two years row exciting world series both teams won will win the series this year despite the heroics some old fart the other team casey stengel dave winfield perhaps was only responding the yankees the and part the comment those teams were sure thing and lost then probably not unreasonable for someone pick another team not that did john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu brewers
rec.sport.baseball	marlins win marlins win article lloyd lloyd uclink berkeley edu lloyd nebres writes look all that teal bleah indeed the color teal team uniforms any indication the future the marlins are dire trouble refer the san jose sharks for proof but have hope for the marlins was sometime member the rene lachemann fan club the oakland coliseum and have deep respect for the guy gem and course walt weiss gives that franchise class but yeah whoever designed those uniforms was guilty paucity style and imagination ugghhh maybe just child the but really liked the marlins uniforms the helmets shine nicely the sun enough make fan ted frank however teel should have mentioned that though thf kimbark uchicago edu his advice legally sound you follow the law school you will probably wind jail standard disclaimers james donald misc legal
rec.sport.baseball	mark whiten was vacation all last week and didn see any news all could somebody fill how louis ended with mark whiten trade who did give arocha allen watson dmitri young did dal make decent deal russ smith don know anything about but know about some george gervin being assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	info needed for cleveland tickets article apr leland stanford edu bohnert leland stanford edu matthew bohnert writes going cleveland thursday april sunday april does anybody know the tribe will town those dates and who they playing and tickets are available the tribe will town from april the there are always tickets available though they are playing toronto and many toronto fans make the trip cleveland easier get tickets cleveland than toronto either way seriously doubt they will sell out until the end the season doug bank private systems division dougb ecs comm mot com motorola communications sector dougb nwu edu schaumburg illinois dougb casbah acns nwu edu
rec.sport.baseball	yogi isms here one remember sort yogi asleep hotel room late night and gets call from someone after answers the phone the person the other end asks woke yogi yogi answered the phone did kevin one favorites came back the seventies when two streakers interupted game yogi was dashing across the field unclad later someone who wasn present asked yogi they were men women replied couldn tell they had bags over their heads
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes mss netcom com mark singer said know that very very few players this age make much impact the bigs especially when they haven even played aaa ball yes but this irrelevant you talking about averages when have lots information about this player particular base our decisions you really have that much information him really don personally but clay just posted yes unfortunately shows that lopez wasn good example nieves would have been since his last year numbers were out line with the previous years which didn have access the point remains though knowing guy minor league history good knowing his major league history you know how read why isn lopez likely hit that well hit that well last year after adjusting his stats for park and league and such hit better absolute scale than olson berryhill did lot don know you tell what percentage players reach exceed their mle their rookie season talking about you know the mle not projection equivalence this how well hit last year major league terms rating essence has already reached would guess bob clay that essentially half all players surpass their previous mles their rookie seasons maybe more than half since all these players are young and improving that were your purpose maybe offerman spent getting acclimated you will the dodgers team paid big price that season did they offerman may have been the difference between place and last place but more perhaps they will reap the benefits down the road you really think they would have done what they did they were competing for pennant sure they didn have anyone better suppose they might have gutted the farm system acquire jay bell spike owen somebody they were really contention the point was not that significant sample but rather that hadn done anything spring training cause even blockhead manager question whether his minor league numbers were for real send him down until gets warmed for stat head amazed that you put any credence spring training you read what wrote you less amazed nowhere claim put any credence spring training quite the contrary said that lopez hadn done anything that even the bozos who put credence spring training could interpret failure just because think spring training numbers are meaningless doesn mean that bobby cox does just case ruling out one possible explanation for sending lopez down the kid will improve playing aaa just like keith mitchell did wait minute missed something here keith mitchell did very very well aaa and the majors over season then did very very poorly for year aaa david tate not know what about you that closes posing and opens only something understands can the pocket your glove deeper than pete rose cummings nobody not even tim raines has such soft hands
rec.sport.baseball	sax any more news steve status since lost the starting job would appreciated thanks gwyn
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers most this discussion has been between mark singer and david tate with valentine weighing the same side dave various times opinion fwiw all mark age doesn matter ability does would rather have the untried rookie with great minor league numbers than the veteran who has proven himself average best don care plays better than what have want him out there sandy alomar had decent minor league numbers grossly inflated the pcl general and las vegas particular should have been projected average major league hitter which good for catcher admit santiago numbers would probably come out the same sandy but don have the league data from the mid check out that being said agree with sending lopez richmond least start the season the box below shows has one minor league season which hit well has two which hit very very poorly want see that the lopez real olson and berryhill are not complete mediocrities for catchers especially catchers they are essentially average hitters with equivalent averages around had hit well prior levels would say belongs the braves but there reasonable chance that lopez last year was just much fluke alomar santiago one year any level any age doesn satisfy standards evidence javier lopez bur dur grn atl maj min tot maj min tot similar note don understand why more people are not supportive neon deion granted thought his behavior with mccarver last year was completely bush last year was the first time ever got one place his lines are hard read but has combined ops minor league play with his speed more valuable than the ops alone indicates and still young age had monster year with ops has total major and minor eqa above major league average and above average for which was about the last year has shown least the potential going into the which would make him one the best hitters the league has two full seasons before reaching his prime season should considered legitimate prospect and not simple side show attraction deion sanders fla int eas nyy int nyy int atl ric atl maj min tot maj min tot clay
rec.sport.baseball	giants quinn genius article apple apple com chuq apple com chuq von rospach wrote mcmath csb nlm nih gov chuck chuck buck mcmath writes when the giants protected mike benjamin career average ovre pitcher pat rapp there were surprised looks the bay area benjamin stats doubles dingers and rapp even been sent down aaa even better than that course the protected list was done the old regime not the new this rosen baby not quinn and tell you what let look this again the end the season and say three years and see who the genius one the more braindead decisions the oldgiants imho even benjamin does improve markedly over the past and his hitting better never going more than utility backup rapp might turn into top flight arm another year think the next time post something like this obviously need make the sarcasm bit more obvious chuck chuck mcmath mcmath csb nlm nih gov msd inc national library medicine national institutes health bethesda noose good noose hey batter hey batter hey batter swing anon this opinion influenced cosmic radiation
rec.sport.baseball	reds without sleeves was new uniforms article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes the only person who thinks the reds sleeveless uniforms are ugly yet another reason why they won win the west uniforms really were deciding factor pennant races the pirates would have never won anything those have the ugliest uniforms ever seen particular the all yellow set sherri nichols snichols adobe com vote goes for the indians with their all red uniforms boog powell once said felt like big red blood clot rich barry barry ihlpe att com
rec.sport.baseball	yogi isms article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes here interesting quote from bill veek from get that nigger off the field josh gibson was minimum two yogi berras speaking yogi anybody know any good yogi isms mike curious george stultz here one remember sort yogi asleep hotel room late night and gets call from someone after answers the phone the person the other end asks woke yogi yogi answered the phone did kevin
rec.sport.baseball	predictions for since everyone else seems running wild with predictions decided add own fuel the fire they might seem bit normal but there are few albeit small surprises american league east new york yankees baltimore orioles toronto blue jays cleveland indians boston red sox milwaukee brewers detroit tigers american league west minnesota twins kansas city royals texas rangers chicago white sox oakland athletics seattle mariners california angels mvp kirby puckett young kevin appier rookie the year tim salmon manager the year buck showalter comeback player the year ozzie guillen national league east louis cardinals philadelphia phillies montreal expos new york mets chicago cubs pittsburgh pirates florida marlins national league west atlanta braves cincinnati reds houston astros los angeles dodgers san francisco giants san diego padres colorado rockies mvp barry larkin young john smoltz rookie the year wil cordero manager the year joe torre comeback player the year eric davis champions louis cardinals champions minnesota twins world champions louis cardinals the louis picks are what heart says what brain says they will win the division lose the braves the nlcs and the braves will win the series against minnesota but for now stick with the cards all the way kevin
rec.sport.baseball	joe robbie stadium not for baseball did anyone notice the words not for baseball printed the picture joe robbie stadium the opening day season preview section usa today any reason given for this also just noticed something looking the nolan ryan timeline the preview rickey henderson became nolan strikeout pitched his hitter against oakland believe the last out the game was made rickey henderson and nolan pitched his hitter the same day certain someone stole his base which overshadowed seems that nolan having lot publicity rickey expense imo rickey deserves and seems most the net agrees with from what seen lately they are both great players but imo nolan has outclassed rickey both playing and more importantly attitude just thoughts kevin
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article blue cis pitt edu genetic pitt edu david tate writes for rushing there really qualitative difference between the minors and the majors that requires period adjustment and don believe there then wouldn you rather waste lopez year old good season than his year old very good season his year old excellent season the sooner you get him acclimated the more his prime you get use can anybody name player who was rushed the majors let for argument sake define rushed brought the majors for more than cup coffee prior age younger and performing below expectations whose career was damaged this rushing serious tend agree with david that bringing the player sooner better but like look players for whom this theory didn work there are any prefer players within the last years because then can look their minor league stats important distinguish between players who legitimately had careers below what their minor league numbers would have projected opposed players who were hyped and failed but actually had careers not out line with their minor league numbers let kick off with example player who was rushed although there doesn seem have been any damage his career jay bell was given pas the major leagues age and performed well below what you would expect from his aaa numbers the same season got pas the next year age and still underperformed however the next year age his performance improved and won the everyday shortstop job and has been there ever since really hard for see where would have been better off staying the minor league where was performed quite well aaa during this time rather than being rushed cleveland might have been better off suppose because they might have been less likely give him yes you bring player early likely going struggle but does that delay the time which stops struggling and starts performing expectations sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	cubs game april article apr oucsace ohiou edu jclark oucsace ohiou edu michael clark writes otis nixion lined single left with two outs breaking the hitter cubs win hitter jose guzman that might what takes beat the braves this year look smoltz pitching line hits walks and loss
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed majors snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes can anybody name player who was rushed the majors let for argument sake define rushed brought the majors for more than cup coffee prior age younger and performing below expectations whose career was damaged this rushing tend agree that players are not hurt early play the big leagues the braves organization fertile ground test this hypothesis they had little talent their roster for some time steve avery for example was rushed the majors and fared very poorly during his initial campaign his subsequent pitching has not been affected his era during his rookie year bill james pointed out that was relatively unusual struggle and then rebound bob horner was also rushed the majors out arizona state directly had good numbers immediately not certain the ages people like pete smith craig mcmurty and derek lilliquist the braves pitching staffs were bad when they came that they might have been rushed lilliquist and smith struggled but didn hurt and may have been overhyped seem recall pitching well initially though don have stats handy douglas bone internet bone luciano stanford edu standard disclaimers bitnet bone luciano stanford edu stanford apply uucp ucbvax luciano sierra stanford edu bone
rec.sport.baseball	rickey henderson article vinns appserv eng sun com str maredsous eng sun com todd rader writes stay school you have lot learn learn what know that million dollars lot money know rickey henderson doesn have career out baseball know didn have baseball wouldn making near the money now just don understand how some athlete who only plays sport for living for millions dollars say not being paid enough nobody will sign him for his asking price will the one hurting the will still win without him remeber many these athletes have nothing not for their athletic ability nothing they are getting paid much more than most hard working citizens and they are complaining not enough pay don have problem with them making millions problem when the say they aren being paid enough when they already get million also their numbers get worse
rec.sport.baseball	angels win the angels won their home opener against the brewers today before anaheim stadium hitter mark langston snow and gary discarcina hit home runs for the angels daniel
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers mss netcom com mark singer said most catchers need solid defensively players help their clubs the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities call games work with the pitchers throw out runners this the crux the argument least both the sdcn and the non sdcn camps seem agree the fact that catcher defense basically nonmeasurable present you can talk about how important calling game framing the pitches blocking balls the dirt but there little way tell exactly how various catcher rank defense looking lopez specifically there any reason suspect that bad defensive catcher other then the fact that the braves the media has labeled him bad defensive catcher far can tell doesn have any particular problem his mechanics such sasser might little rough around the edges blocking the ball framing the pitch get good call but all needs clear that playing and practice time can see how repetitions aaa are any better then reps the majors all left with the calling the game aspect olsen and berryhill always given credit for calling good games and helping the pitchering staff but this reputation that given almost all veteran catchers how catching aaa going help lopez learn the major league pitching staff the only way any catcher going learn tom glavine pitches catch tom glavine similarly wouldn supprised the pitcher claimed prefer pitching olsen over pitching lopez because they are used pitching olsen but given time they will say they are comfortable with lopez now since lopez can learn how handle the major league pitcher while aaa and since doesn have any glaring problem his mechanics what going learn aaa that can learn just well while the majors dave dave bonar mebonar lsuvax sncc lsu edu
rec.sport.baseball	picks with only one comment article jfr msstate edu jfr msstate edu jackie russell writes psg pitt edu paul galvanek writes since did well last year here another shot picking the winners and losers skip the commentary why picked who finish where due lack time for flame wars kansas city think has much better shot being the top division than the bottom one word cone should help things tremendously think you are way off the mark here another word offense makes them pick for last too well there also policy never picking buck rodgers team for last florida chicago dont know expansion team has ever finished not last but think this year might first hasnt ever happened the cubs are worse the angels were game out the athletics and expansion senators finished tied for last the colt finshed ahead the cubs the mets were last the royals finshed ahead the white sox the pilots last the mariners finished ahead the athletics last apparently being expansion team with poor chicago team around good thing national league west cincinnati houston atlanta argh here where you are obviously dead wrong not since the yankees the and has team been nicely setup this years and years come braves don think that the all star team will able beat this may appropriate comparison the yankees finshed and finshing and games out first and they also finished second though they were only and games out even great teams can lose that why they play the season the other hand still picking the braves all the way john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman predictions for marlins wins rockies wins and rockies fans will claim that the offense adequate
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre idiot article apr bsu ucs bjgood leo bsuvc bsu edu writes just wanted let everyone know that have lost what little respect have for jim lefebvre after seeing today cubs game dishard cub fan you think that bad just wait until tries dunston the leadoff spot again yes also wonder they can win with this manager never believed managers had that much with winning until saw how much they had with losing rick
rec.sport.baseball	jim lefebvre idiot article news cso uiuc edu ada uxa cso uiuc edu driftwood writes totally agree with each point you made jose viscaino looked like single hitter there who swings count with maddux pitching and your teams down run and you haven touched the ball all day also think too much made that lefty righty thing watching the cubs games get the feeling steve stone knows lot more about what the cubs should doing than lefebre does harry said best when stated after another terrible vizcaino bat can wait til sandberg returns tell you steve stone like prophet must making ton the boradcoast booth because can understand why not actually back the game itself the other day called sosa homerun against the sox and claimed the game would going into extra innings when the score was the yesterday notices that sosa ahead the count against maddux and says this fastball situation and sosa will looking for but this also the spot where maddux throws the straight change sure enough sosa gets ahead and pops the infield stoney for cubs manager rick
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article mssc qmx netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes now keith mitchell recall stat books handy surprise jumped from atlanta did well that was returned the minors where didn very well all now his career jeopardy how does fit with your point good mle moved him right the big club now one step away from being traded moved out baseball duh methinks you recall wrong mitchell hit close atlanta and continued walk alot after his promotion was then think left off the playoff roster and started the next year the minors where even the braves will tell you underperformed because was mad going back down struggled last year doubt but even the braves blamed part the demotion much rather have mitchell than say mark whiten the cards russ smith don know anything about but know about some george gervin being assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	chris webber chokes after the marvelous time out call chris webber which resulted technical foul since his team had time outs left perhaps webber will take the place bill buckner the master choke least this red sox fan hopes ted when chelsea clinton secret service agent had replaced active duty soldier she objected the grounds that her family dislikes the military krueger gas uug arizona edu
rec.sport.baseball	designated hitter rule ekdfc ttacs ttu edu david coons the rules say baseball game between two teams nine players each let keep that way niepornt phoenix princeton edu david marc nieporent not any more the rules don say that that pretty dumb argument really little mind boggled don have rule book yet david would you please post the new wording rule mightily curious much thanks wayne hathaway domain wayne ultra com ultra network technologies uucp ames ultra wayne daggett drive phone san jose fax
rec.sport.baseball	camden yards fortunate enough have tickets for orioles red sox game baltimore saturday july haven been the new park and was wondering anyone out there can give pointers good tips anything helpful about the place that can enjoy every moment spent there for instance what time the gates open see the orioles take when will the red sox take anything you can tell would appreciated thank you advance please respond mail address know still three and half months away but psyched sue
rec.sport.baseball	rickey henderson and michael jackson jack nicholson and bill cosby wouldn making near much money they weren entertainers what your point actually could care less what his salary has something with the fact that live america and everyone entitled whatever can legally obtain sandy alderson and the haas family willingly negotiate salary million per year with rickey couldn care less but what really gets goat the bullshit spouted spring training about well sometimes may not play hard might hurt more often place where not appreciated this quote was the chronicle about the second week camp and strongly suggests that was going dog all year the ownership didn kiss his butt and ante some more money for god sake rickey you signed contract years ago now honor and play say all you want about steve garvey and believe hated him too but least when put his signature piece paper shut his mouth and played hard until the contract was matt bohnert
rec.sport.baseball	david wells article apr iccgcc decnet com carrd iccgcc decnet com writes has david wells landed with team yet think the tigers with their anemic pitching would grab this guy pronto they did for jim
rec.sport.baseball	seer stephenson picks the east having run completely out time got get prophesies and predictions for the out qualifications one the worse finishes last year prediction contest east baltimore orioles why the orioles well pondered long and hard and all came down this the blue jays are going the wrong direction can bring myself pick the yankees milwaukee was fluke indians aren ready contend red sox were bad last year and didn get any better detroit pitching will the new definition replacement level but you don really think the orioles will win you matter fact can see any team the american league winning either division paper with the possible exception the yankees who hate but some body has win pick the orioles you don really think that brady anderson going repeat you basing the orioles prediction the expectation big years from cal ripken and glenn davis glenn davis that insane yes without further ado strong points hoiles ripken some years olson getting rid billy ripken weak points segui may start valenzuela the original something may the fifth starter oates puts his best hitters the bottom the lineup does anybody else think that might calculated maneuver minimize the effect slumping ripken you can move ripken out the spot why not move the rest the line would good sign glenn davis wins comeback player the year would bad sign tight pennant race team trades for pecota obprediction the streak continues harold reynolds leads the team caught stealing new york yankees strong points abbot key perez could have best pitching american league boggs should improve hayes weak points mattingly still considered best hitter the steinbrenner factor the yankees lost the mets can wholesale changes far behind never count rookie pitchers wickman millitello win division would good sign boggs hits over would bad sign howe gets arrested again obprediction mattingly won top ops toronto blue jays strong points management willing make big deals management has eerie power convince other teams its prospects are not suspects olerud guzman alomar weak points the jackson for bell trade has shaken faith gillick losing stewart may hurt rotation that really bad sign one the outfield can get base pitching thin behind guzman and ward would good sign jack morris considered young contender august would bad sign club makes major deals august obprediction morris will post better era and whip totals than last year and have losing record milwaukee brewers strong points pitching staff was exceptional last year weak points molitor gone surhoff third why eldred can keep would good sign listach and eldred play like last year would bad sign bones plays like last year obprediction surhoff won finish the year third cleveland indians strong points baerga belle nagy weak points pitching staff thin losing olin really hurts starts felix fermin would good sign bielecki era consistent with his atlanta starts would bad sign ted power bullpen ace obprediction alomar will back the the all star break boston red sox strong points clemens viola clemens detroit clemens weak points most incompetent baseball key free agent signing andre dawson burks gone hatcher center would good sign rainouts between clemens starts would bad sign clemens the obprediction russell will make sox fans forget reardon interpret that how you will detroit tigers strong points tettleton phillips whitaker weak points fielder keeps declining shortstop this year worst rotation baseball entirely replaced but not necessarily better this year could very ugly would good sign cecil fielder deserving the mvp would bad sign cecil fielder not whining about deserving mvp obprediction cecil won lead the league rbis one more division dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	rockies not rookies news cso uiuc edu dbl uxa cso uiuc edu daniel brian lake writes you think that expansion team would filled with young not guys like murphy galaragga smith depends you can get your old veterans cheap and they can perform higher level than your young talent can now why not the talent develop the minors while giving the fans some familiar names cheer the veterans are gone year two that should just about right maybe someone should tell those renegade front office people denver open question which was more important the expansion clubs the expansion draft the regular draft they had one each think dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	cubs behind marlins how gajarsky pilot njin net writes morgan and guzman will have era run higher than last year and the cubs will idiots and not pitch harkey much hibbard castillo won good think stud pitcher this season far morgan and guzman helped lead the cubs top era even better than the rotation atlanta cubs era while braves know early the season cubs fans have learned how enjoy the short triumph while still there
rec.sport.baseball	giants quinn genius autodesk com trs autodesk com tom schroeder writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes during the same time span the braves developed john smoltz tom glavine steve avery david justice ron gant and jeff blauser among others avery believe came from the phillies jeff blauser avery was the overall pick the braves behind mark lewis think john smoltz came over the braves from the tigers but was developed the braves jeff blauser isn bad player dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	best record ever baseball all teams believe the cubs have the best record ever baseball sometime way far back and something admiral steve liu admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander chief the security division the club earth chapter president the earth chapter the club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem that the abbreviation clitoris from the polymorph episode red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings god man drilling holes through his head not the answer mccoy you know susanna hoffs has really nice ass comment flanagan the club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed majors don know you could call him rushed but big ben mcdonald didn much time all the minors course that was because the balls used aaa had seams too large and gave mcdonald blisters forcing him the several times done most his learning here the majors course gregg wild thing olson and mike deserved young mussina didn spend much time the minors either read somewhere that pitchers are less likely need that much time the minors anyway maybe that has something with let why not admiral steve still reliving sept liu admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu commander chief the security division the club earth chapter president the earth chapter the club founded april world champions baltimore orioles why not series the yards stanley cup champions washington capitals committee for the liberation and intergration terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society the only problem that the abbreviation clitoris from the polymorph episode red dwarf the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings god man drilling holes through his head not the answer mccoy you know susanna hoffs has really nice ass comment flanagan the club creating the largest signatures for the past nine months
rec.sport.baseball	marlin fans was watching the dodgers marlins game yesterday and couple things impressed first that the way the sun was shining miami had summer atmosphere early spring for baseball comparison wrigley field early april still has wintry look with the dead ivy and bundled fans the second and most important was the fans like these guys gals will admit football fan first but still enjoy baseball was interesting because most these fans are only accustomed the miami dolphins the way they were cheering thought was the afc playoffs course opening day may have lot with but really got feeling electricity that think lacking with lot baseball fans other cities baseball certainly needs charge and hope these two expansion teams bring back some excitement find out friday how denver bronco fans respond phillies are better say now before opportunity passes
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns personally will never forget mike schmidt home run against the expos that decided the east was also his career high another home run that thought was totally incredible was the alcs the angles had the boston red sox strike away from the pennant until don baylor hit two strike pitch for home run that was the most incredible turn events have ever seen baseball the sox later took the pennant away only have the same thing done them the against the mets speaking the mets isn strange how the nlcs that year with the astros almost mirrored the nlcs with the phillies the astros have been painfully close twice must admit
rec.sport.baseball	florida sucks this talk about the phillies winning the east scary very scary don get wrong phillies fan but late last year they looked helpless the funny thing was they did have lot injuries spring training that basically killed their chances course don forget the dykstra wrist injury the first second game
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja after reading local paper today found out that the phillies started the season not old but heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead the cardinals games that season mid august they managed lose bunch from then and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost hope this season much different
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article rudyc netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes article fmxd dal niguma dal gord niguma writes reference history because certainly didn have the best season for second basemen history probably didn even have good season alomar last year what you have some measure like popularity toronto doesn count that you are basing this statement yes baerga has lot flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters slg obp rbi baerga alomar this fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that with numbers showing that baerga had better year the only category that see which shows advantage for alomar obp
rec.sport.baseball	tiger stadium gif does anybody have gif the tiger stadium seating chart thanks brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com didn think should been asked catch when the temperature was below age carlton fisk chicago white sox catcher playing during degree april ball game
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes after reading local paper today found out that the phillies started the season not old but heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead the cardinals games that season mid august they managed lose bunch from then and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost hope this season much different don shannon cardinals fan kohl
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir article apr pts mot com pts mot com dave naehring writes article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece evidence can find points major league baseball being offense defense run scored just important run prevented this certainly passes the common sense test for but there any statistical evidence say what percent defense pitching and what percent fielding really like know btw sherri thanks for the data find fascinating course run scored just important run prevented just penny saved penny earned enough with the cliches point that the braves starters are able live their potential they won need much offensive support realize this big this staff leaves the bosox the dust there legitimate comparison two young winners and three other pitchers that most any team the league would kill have their first second starter seems that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins this puts the team with the better pitching the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves they should have many low scoring games due their excellent pitching and below average hitting the flip side you had starting lineup great offensive players would arguing that this team would not need great pitchers they would have advantage because they could simply outscore their opponent the name the games win even ray knight knows that you this putting more runs the scoreboard all trying say that you assemble the quality pitchers like the braves have the offense doesn need strong sam dave sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	tigers woof woof david shapiro people can call monkey but felt like shapiro david yale edu had piano back all winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu the piano off back maybe trombone will next stan belinda
rec.sport.baseball	cards mailing list count interested cardinal mailing list anyone finds one starts one please let know thanks dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi com
rec.sport.baseball	cubs expos roster questions article apr vmsb csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb csupomona edu writes today cubs activated mike harkey from whom did they move make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland the expos the thanks for anyone who can give more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland the effective march something like that rick
rec.sport.baseball	tigers article apr sbcs sunysb edu wynblatt sbgrad sunysb edu michael wynblatt writes weird thing leading going into the top the ninth sparky used his ace closer henneman the tigers have relievers and least were rested available does sparky trust them that little think just wanted get henneman some work because the tigers had days off both the day before and the day after jim
rec.sport.baseball	phillies sign mark davis does that mean they have pay his salary didn they wait for him clear waivers not why not davis will paid three clubs this year think the phils are responsbible for about they didn wait for him clear waivers three other clubs were also very interested him gamble yes will royals fan skeptical they say pitched well winter ball also pitched well omaha while with just didn pitch well even acceptably when the majors don have his atlanta stats but must not have impressed them very much either what about the year when got saves san diego did pitch well then know was awful the next year when went but still won the young too for that year
rec.sport.baseball	florida sucks article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes this talk about the phillies winning the east scary very scary don get wrong phillies fan but late last year they looked helpless the funny thing was they did have lot injuries spring training that basically killed their chances course don forget the dykstra wrist injury the first second game first game first bat
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed majors article tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn bob horner straight from arizona state univ the atlanta braves remember had one great month hitting dingers and then the next heard was japan month well did have short career compared what one might have expected for such highly touted prospect due being injury prone overweight and having work ethic but certainly did not suffer from being rushed the bigs len reed holos software inc voice ext domain lbr holos atl usa uucp lbr holos uucp
rec.sport.baseball	sid fernandez read this morning that sid fernandez left last nights game with stiffness his shoulder does anyone have any information the extent the injury indeed there one weather the cold air colorado just got his joints little stiff thanks for the help ray miller disclaimer cub chopin jpl nasa gov all opinions are strictly own once spent year philadelphia think was sunday wcfields
rec.sport.baseball	yankkes game closer article apr freenet carleton freenet carleton ralph timmerman writes from freenet carleton ralph timmerman subject yankkes game closer date tue apr gmt previous article axe acadiau jason walter works says the yankees are now one game closer the east pennant they clobbered cleveland fine pitching performance key and two homeruns tartabull first baseball out this season and three run homer nokes for all you who didn pick boggs your pools tough break had couple hits and drove couple runs with many more follow the yanks beat and coming team youngsters the indians the yankees only need win more games get the division yanks mattingly for glove and mvp and abbot for young jason does that mean have read this drivel another times this season please spare and check you facts before you post ralph timmerman there life after baseball freenet carleton one says you have read any ralph play traffic take nap they work for kevin kerr kkerr mkcase dseg com president north texas programmers users group bbs yankees dolphins strolling through cyberspace sniffing the electric wind
rec.sport.baseball	let known would like make everyone aware that winning the west the atlanta braves did not lead wire wire through games the houston astros are percentage points ahead the unbeatable braves astros byron lee native texan stuck utah
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for thu apr mlb standings and scores for thursday april including yesterday games national west won lost pct last streak home road houston astros won atlanta braves lost san francisco giants lost los angeles dodgers lost colorado rockies lost san diego padres lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates won louis cardinals won new york mets won chicago cubs won montreal expos lost florida marlins won american west won lost pct last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won oakland athletics lost seattle mariners won chicago white sox won minnesota twins lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox won new york yankees won toronto blue jays lost detroit tigers won cleveland indians lost milwaukee brewers lost baltimore orioles won yesterday scores idle teams listed alphabetical order national league american league houston baltimore montreal texas pittsburgh seattle san diego toronto chicago cleveland atlanta boston cincinnati california philadelphia milwaukee new york kansas city colorado new york florida minnesota ppd san francisco chicago rain louis detroit idle los angeles oakland idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	boog powell was camden yards article apr alchemy chem utoronto mark says was better than balboni this borders blasphemy bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	 article apr news yale edu sean garrison says article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu wrote pitchers who are doing well are more likely taken out the game the than they are the seems that the not the promotes pitchers duels bob vesterman what basis you make this statement sean are you serious pitchers are pinch hit for the they are not the pitcher cranking the will stay the game cranking the may not especially pitchers duel and his team needs extra run bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	ugliest swing article oasys navy mil kiviat oasys navy mil brian kiviat says what think hotdogish about his the way leans out over the plate watch outside pitches etc this not done get better look the pitch but make seem this ball far out need lean just get near you better call ball this unbiased opinion what see your mileage will vary rickey agreat player watch you forget who the time lot batters lean when pitches come rickey crouch tends exaggerate that think great player watch you forget who unbiased hmmm bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	aguilera causes cardiac arrest article dinnemh phakt usc edu wagner phakt usc edu loren wagner writes article apr bmw mayo edu bergerson mayo edu writes maybe you would rather have ron davis back the truly amazing thing was how many years this bum was the closer for the twins you have thought they could find somebody better don daybell wagner usc edu going into the ninth with run lead runs score runners first and second throws there drive waaaaaayyyyyyy back puckett the wall leaps caught the ball what catch kirby twins win and gets the save his line walks hits and one robbed home run paul
rec.sport.baseball	kevin rogers rogers the one batter lefty the bullpen dusty has also said trusts rogers get the final out ballgame where beck unavailable you might see couple saves for kevin then again any the regular rotation falters rogers possible candidate start though this would appear less likely now that dave burba did well emergency start steven
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager joe torre has the worst manager baseball for anyone who didn see sunday game with right hander pitching decides bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs puts lankford hitter with power pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with power pinch hitter what the hell thinking earlier the game interview about acquiring mark whiten commented how fortunate the cardinals were get whiten and that whiten would regular even though this meant that gilkey would hurt but torre said liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does have start the guy would starting most every team the league furthermore sundays game when lankford was thrown out the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home can take this anymore brian very distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute technology internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	brien taylor where last year brein taylor was ball probably tampa the florida state league believe began this year which albany hopefully george won rush him and allowed progress his own rate aaa and then the bronx this guy the real thing jonathan alboum uva
rec.sport.baseball	wfan does any one out there listen wfan for those you who not know what talking about all sports radio staion new york clear night the signal reaches and down the east coast particular want know how len berman and mike lupica show school virginia can listen when there are during the day just wondering jonathan alboum uva did any one see steve sommers hours last night the chief was too doing rangers round was pretty neat shmoozing
rec.sport.baseball	orioles phillies red sox can someone send ticket ordering information for the following teams baltimore philadelphia and boston also you have home schedule available can you tell the dates for all home games between july aug and between aug sept and any these games are promotion nights special discount nights thanks ron and also who the opponents are for these games not reply this account please reply ronc vnet ibm com ibm canada lab database technology associate development analyst astelletto tie line internal mail tor
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes and now the not pleasant surprises tartabull the book tartabull was keep him healthy and produce well hasn done too much far sure hit few homers but those were all solo shots and hasn gotten any the big rbis that your cleanup man supposed give you then again had slow start last year once got off the that and turned into one man wrecking crew see you the series alan let see april less than bats and you claim that hasn done too much far cut this guy some slack danny will produce this year scary think just how much produce were stay healthy all year the yanks have lot going for them this year good starting rotation good bullpen good defense and good lineup also like buck showalter frank howard also good move everything sounds good far the yanks stay healthy they have good chance winning the pennant this the most fun had watching the yanks since bobby
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions laugh oops came across this file from last year thought you might enjoy some these thoughts the predictions were made the date indicated they are largely out order june tedward cornell edu what have done computed the expected winning percentage for each team from their obp total bases and runs allowed use the basic formula and the pythagorean projection then compare this with their actual winning percentage all stats through june team obp xwp diff baltimore boston toronto new york milwaukee detroit cleveland minnesota oakland texas chicago california kansas city seattle you all know how things turned out the orioles red sox and yankees all disappeared the jays and tigers continued essentially the expected pace the brewers and indians cranked the second half the rangers predictably took dive that shouldn have surprised anybody meanwhile predicted the mariners dropped behind the angels and royals they clearly didn deserve the record june the white sox and upped their game bit while the twins dropped off little but for the most part things were expected okay there were few blatant errors but for predictive calculation thought this did pretty well from cavgeoe yalevm ycc yale edu tue mar the braves insert kent mercker into the starting rotation sometime this year bielecki traded released lei brandt becomes the fifth starter and the best bullpen baseball has pena berenguer stanton wohlers freeman and pete smith who spot starts well pete smith made the rotation instead mercker and bielecki wasn released until the end the year won comment the bullpen jeff reardon blauser wins the starting shortstop job outright the end may bream goes the and klesko goes nice hitting honeymoon gregg jefferies platooning with hunter mitchell wins the center field job bit later all star break and nixon stays valuable pinch runner lonnie released unless the braves find taker trade right blauser wrong bream and mitchell bit early lonnie with bielecki didn pick sanders did anybody managers fired this year chronological order fregosi showalter valentine riddoch three them went right showalter still around and likely stick seems from mattel auto trol com mattel auto trol com tue mar bonds gets traded from bucs for some young talent nope they won the division and kept him for shot the playoffs mets win division well they didn finish last atlanta repeats the west got that one right yankees surprise everyone but finish second behind toronto nope dwight gooden wins but surpassed saberhagen who wins guess this why you picked the mets win huh roger clemens injured early the season tsk tsk not nice predict something like this strawberry fails hit even home runs and often injured due dodgers drop out race you got that right and response from tedward tue mar hmph can tell you are mets fan you mind make some counter predictions against yours they follow mets come third behind pittsburgh and montreal okay the mets finished fifth but got the pirates and expos right the yankees offense and pitching flounders dropping them fourth place the east boston wins games the division the pennant and the world series first half dead second half ummm sox fan easy dwight gooden rushes his comeback gets blown out and goes the from may through mid july saberhagen runs record wfan criticizes the mets for giving away that great talent jefferies who has solid year got predictions for gooden and saberhagen reversed was least close and was right about jefferies though don know has wfan criticized the jefferies trade roger clemens wins another well games close cigar article udqceao vpeii andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu amit likhyani writes excerpts from netnews rec sport baseball apr east smiley trade cavgeoe yalevm ycc yale ops projected for hojo will streak naked down forbes avenue hojo does not muster more than ops something wrong with that projection some predictions need introduction from navarra casbah acns nwu edu mon apr from tedward cornell edu you care put your prediction down for posterity you predict mark grace will get rbis say you are out your mind that almost impossible for type guy batting behind dawson who kills most the rallies doesn finish why you say that mark has driven and last year mark was batting second primarily and was his worse year average wise since batting either this year predict will back his previous standards think will better rbi not that much stretch sometimes statheads get lucky grace didn hit behind dawson the entire season but also finished with only rbis from nss midway uchicago edu tue may the most ballsy prediction ever mark mcgwire will hit more hrs this year nope slowed down and the injury finished him off didn even reach but ballsy prediction nonetheless from ecaxron mars lerc nasa gov thu may baltimore will not fade they will not win the division this year but they will finish within five games find the prospect two orioles winning each easier comprehend than that two sox offense think their pitching about good the division has offer the orioles finished seven games out none them won though mussina might have had chance with better relief and more starts nobody else the division worth darn they all finish minimum fifteen games out the tribe that another reason watch baltimore this year and next they won waste many those games against the rest the division except for the brewers who you probably forgot you were right the rest the division was thoroughly mediocre the yankees and indians led with wins the red sox trailed with wins none were horrible but four were five more games below from djohnson cayley uwaterloo david johnson date thu aug gmt right that was never said the jays were cinch clinch but said that milwaukee will more threat than baltimore think that toronto should win but after don consider anything cinch unless you have something like game lead with games think that the jays have the best talented team the east and had good even average manager might have bigger lead right now also think that the orioles will not play much better than baseball for the rest the season you win from king cogsci ucsd edu thu nov article nov cornell edu you write indians the first and only season ever prediction the cleveland indians will win more games next year you were right from stvjas meteor wisc edu fri sep jose rijo will win the young award healthy enough least who would have thought would try steal base why risk such injury had but didn win the young maddux surprised all the orioles will win games least the next years probably the last and their pitching staff will have team era among the best the least the next years but not necessarily all the same years they win this one will take long time verify don think want wait that long but they won games last year and they were fifth the league era not bad start ben mcdonald will not challenge for era title the next years nor will have victories either year challenge mean finish among the leaders being among the leaders before the season done doesn count will probably never the pitcher was hyped but still decent starter have looks like wasn bad last year just too consistent ace far this year looks like more the same the phillies will give many fewer walks when they get rid their bullpen coach ryan not predicting when whether they will get rid him and you will have give the team little bit time adjust before seeing the radical change they would have fine pitching staff they would just steal ray miller away from pittsburg the white sox seem have the same problem but not bad honestly can say did they get rid him their totals were down last year ricky jordan will have rbi starts games hitting the spot any lineup the spot lineup with very good obp the hitters this applies for each the next years just don think that good billy ripken will never again hit over with far good definitely not waiting check this one from panix spira cmcl nyu edu fri sep matter what lou gorman and his scouts say paul quantrill will never ever adequate major league starter never have never seen starting pitcher who can only strike out per innings aaa successful the majors current plans seem use quantrill long relief has rubber arm and unusual delivery might decent that role from lyle ecn purdue edu sat sep frank thomas hal morris division winners east baltimore orioles west chicago white sox pennant chicago white sox east louis cardinals west cincinatti reds pennant cincinatti reds champion cincinatti reds wrong all the above hal morris and favorites from tedward sun oct belle will not walk many times belle will hit more than has walks belle hit last year walking times but five those were intentional okay exaggerate but might have been right from trn strdev jhuapl edu tue mar are the going sign cal eli wallet welded shut outgoing money only wide open for incoming cash prediction which you may make note valentine that eli jacobs will defer any serious negotiations cal ripken contract until the season over eli will give cal every opportunity have his stats tumble bit from last year pace before coming forth with offer despite claims that was designed cal strength feeling that the foot left center canyon will cut down cal power stats after all hard credibly offer million year all star game mvp mvp gold glove shortstop baseball deity but lot easier offer similar salary obviously declining but above average shortstop who had career year one full season ago course cal does match his numbers then eli going faced with rather huge and expensive problem how much did cal sign for when did sign remember correctly got rather hefty contract despite weak season and finally from jpalmer uwovax uwo thu sep generally because expansion there will lot mediocre talent hanging around much will not make the expansion teams look for younger talent around which build their teams specific predictions april jim acker and cory snider will selling aluminum siding snyder still acker gone neither charlie kerfeld nor vance lovelace presently tiger but formerly big leaguers will playing professional ball they aren the majors nor will dave rozema who says keeping shape with hope for another shot with expansion never heard him shawn hare and jody hurst will the major leagues they are outfielders the tiger minor league system don think they are the majors ron hassey will minor league manager with the yankees dunno what happened him will bye bye for balboni still around stuck the minors jackson will not starter with raines out looks get lot gary huckaby will have moved alaska permanently they the net and dave kirsch will return canada live thanks for listening valentine
rec.sport.baseball	found the secret why are the red sox first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight three days rest what are the sox going with four man rotation this why hesketh was used relief last night cheers valentine was wrong the sox have already scored runs two games this week they should reach without trouble still think fluke
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir sbp acad drake edu said article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece evidence can find points major league baseball being offense defense run scored just important run prevented course run scored just important run prevented just penny saved penny earned enough with the cliches not cliche and unlike your comments below not tautology needn have been true every pitcher baseball were essentially the same quality the variance pitching ability were much smaller than the variance batting ability then scoring runs would much more important than preventing them simply because the ability actively prevent runs would much weaker point that the braves starters are able live their potential they won need much offensive support that your point you should have said what you fact said was pitching and defense win championships and later pitching the essence baseball neither which says what you are now claiming was your point and neither which true seems that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins and you accuse sherri mouthing cliches this puts the team with the better pitching the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves not clear all that this true high scoring games the team with the better offense wins high percentage the time low scoring games the split essentially regardless team ability they should have many low scoring games due their excellent pitching and below average hitting the flip side you had starting lineup great offensive players would arguing that this team would not need great pitchers thought you said pitching and defense win championships and pitching the essence baseball david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series substituting irony for brains bruce klopfenstein said dtate pitt edu david tate writes course they left rbis off comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual only individual stats count forgot most runs are scored players stealing home rbi don count for anything right you also forgot that you can get rbi barring with nobody base what fraction all runs come solo most runs are scored because there happened players base when the batter did something good use the phrase happened advisedly lots people have tried figure out who the players are who have the most ability turn notch clutch rbi whatever situations and what they found that there evidence that anyone has such ability any measurable extent there are clutch hitters people who tend things that would cause rbi there were somebody base end getting rbis proportional how many their teammates obliged being position mistake agree david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	spanky released article apr sei cmu edu sei cmu edu william pollak writes deletions spanky isn very good defensively anymore offensive liability and judging from his outburst this winter after the bucs failed sign drabek jerk with his head the sand tommy prince the other hand can hit the paper simmons was citing the case tom pagnozzi who never hit the minors majors but suddenly somehow learned how geez dal must have slipped something into ted drink sometime comparing prince pagnozzi offensively laughable prince has never hit well the minors and now years old think pagnozzi was not bad hitter the minors bring the numbers tomorrow assuming don have another brain cramp and forget had very good year louisville before coming the majors recall the hype pagnozzi coming the organization was good hit decent fielding when got the majors and didn hit well expected not much playing time became exhibit nichols law catcher defense and got the reputation outstanding defensive catcher not clear ever learned hit his four years with more than born july year slg oba power less than league average walks peak year when turned now declining ted going invoke pagnozzi model for prince given that prince has underperformed pagnozzi the minors not rosy picture btw still unhappy with moving zeile who had the same reputation coming the cardinal organization pagnozzi except that was much much better hitter where could average hitter and below average fielder instead well above average hitter average below average fielding catcher harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman used work for brewery too but didn drink the job bavasi dal maxvill view that florida can win the east
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed majors missed the original post but aren the expos rushing alomost their entire team this year from montreal and fan but geez the expos rank salary only the rockies trail and someone the average age would probably first year university corelmark
rec.sport.baseball	cubs expos roster questions article msu oscs montana edu alird msu oscs montana edu writes article apr vmsb csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb csupomona edu writes today cubs activated mike harkey from whom did they move make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland the expos the thanks for anyone who can give more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland the effective march something like that rick wetteland comes off the april and will evaluated the throwing well and without pain the side deshields not the suffered from the chicken pox and lost this the official total pounds will back hopefully next week walker will back this tonight tomorrow corelmark from montreal
rec.sport.baseball	cubs expos roster questions make room for harkey the cubs sent shawn boskie down aaa
rec.sport.baseball	astros are back article hhwv cvk austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc stephenson writes keeping line with the pessimists the net hold off the astros being all the way back they could indeed contend but that would count atlanta encountering some unforeseen problems such injuries keeping their early season abysmal hitting while atlanta has the undisputed best starting rotation feel that their relief staff may suspect they don have real closer although mike stanton saves has been used that role didn stanton start off great last year and then falter despite this your point well taken atlanta doesn seem have the same personality team thus unlikely self destruct for houston take atlanta needs suffer some injuries particularly their starting rotation astros relief corps holding together doug jones keeps his changeup effective and xavier hernandez can effective then passable there reasonable left handed help and the middle relief iffy tom edens was expected take over the joe boever setup man role but been injured and was expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought that boever would demand too much money they let him doug jones can lose his touch went from cleveland all star closer the minors pretty short span from what understand boever and murphy were considered expendable the club houston felt that their positions could filled number players art doug jones the key houston success must have another great year for houston challenge the west lousey spring closer the minors pretty short span right strong rotation will take the pressure off the troubling bullpen bit shakiness the fifth starter slot but that basically normal taubensee anthony gonzalez and cedeno fulfilling some hitting potential anthony appears about there taubensee swing looks lot better this year solid knock against expos last night gonzalez showing some early power and cedeno still has the loopiest swing this side tim wallach the unsuspected strength the lower part the order has saved the club far biggio and finley just aren doing their job getting base instead filling his role rbi man bagwell has had assume biggio and finley job biggio concerns since usually starts the season very strong side note are you all concerned with the rumors concerning next year uniform there talk that their road uniform will blech traditional grey with the word houston written across the chest not mistaken their home uniforms may totally eliminate the color orange shiver mclane favorite color red really upset the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound horrible like see the uniform the mid return they may not have been pretty but houston had established long precident wearing the ugliest uniforms baseball and liked end the bargain remember two years ago little relief goes long way then they could win games but doubt project them wins astros fan since the days staub morgan jackson aspromonte dierker marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin disclaimer the content this posting independent official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc ausvmq ibm astros fan since the days ryan scott smith cruz davis bass hatcher david schwam university houston jetson edu
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame baseball fans what you say don you think deserves mean heck dave winfield hum seriously being considered for lee smith then why don give dave kingman chance darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall fame takes them can take eddie murray and jeff reardon well any case sick and tired mostly sick everybody giving hall fame consideration players that are today standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal let little more selective huh stop handing out these honors liberally save them for the guys who really deserve face something isn done there will little prestige the hall fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity apparent gee can these guys even compare the more likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan steve
rec.sport.baseball	seeking moe berg reference info article hvfs news cis umn edu lsmith deci umn edu lance squiddie smith writes article apr vax clarku edu hhenderson vax clarku edu writes david tate writes also particular colleague mine looking for any information can find moe berg catcher linguist espion any references anecdotes for that matter would appreciated moe berg hero were just talking about him monday the yankee game well there book about him that just been reissued think the title moe berg athlete scholar spy tom sewell and two other people whose names forget sewell wrote the chapter berg danny peary book cult baseball players this good source for some the more famous anecdotes about berg also excellent the section him bill gilbert book they also served about baseball during wwii told berg spy activities are mentioned the recent book heisenberg war his sister also wrote book about moe that she self published the title something like brother morris berg mainly some her memories and page after page xerox copies pictures and letters that moe had saved copies are kinda hard find but the smith baseball library has one for those minneapolis have one here berg alma mater class kind sour thing she disapproved the job that sewell had done roger
rec.sport.baseball	texas ranger ticket info would someone please give the address for texas ranger ticket orders thanks very much jim
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager from another not distressed but still wondering about few things cardinal fan article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has the worst manager baseball not the greatest this true for anyone who didn see sunday game saw with right hander pitching decides bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers lankford was hurt although the announcer said told torre could pinch hit they needed him later the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs puts lankford hitter with power pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with power pinch hitter what the hell thinking wondered the same thing but giving joe the benefit the doubt say was thinking that lankford hurt enough that didn trust his ability bat effectively but wants his speed the bases pinch run him alicea was completely confused about maybe had good record hitting against that particular pitcher don know anybody got idea earlier the game interview about acquiring mark whiten commented how fortunate the cardinals were get whiten and that whiten would regular even though this meant that gilkey would hurt but torre said liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does have start the guy would starting most every team the league well far haven seen much say whiten shouldn playing but too bad that gilkey the odd man out when they play jordan ahead him that don quite understand furthermore sundays game when lankford was thrown out the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home yup looked for this the replay too joe torre going have talk with bucky after the game that one got lankford third with todd zeile believe hot hitter coming there reason risk giving lankford the sign that situation unless was sure the ball going the stands his job watch the play develop should have known larkin was there back bad throw that seemed inexcusable book btw saw dent the same thing last year with zeile rounding third and going into sure out home critical situation the replay there dent waving him around looks like this might serious problem the card weren good base runners all last year and wonder how much the fault lies the base coaching can take this anymore well still hanging there redbirds woof woof brian very distressed cardinal fan brian landmann georgia institute technology internet prism gatech edu dick detweiler rdetweil hpdmd boi com
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal are you for real how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have guy hung around and hit homers year for years wouldn given for the hall defense not just important and robin yount couldn hit why would have stuck around long enough get hits are you saying hits fluke hits big deal let little more selective huh stop handing out these honors liberally save them for the guys who really deserve face something isn done there will little prestige the hall fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity apparent gee can these guys even compare agree garvey and morris don deserve the more likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan well based your argument nolan ryan doesn deserve the hall fame just right hander who stuck around for long time and could throw hard very few game winning seasons lots losing seasons lots walks young awards how does nolan ryan compare guy like steve carlton who dominated major league seasons won divisons world series and won half his teams games doesn compare not even close kirby puckett hasn done long enough for give more seasons like been having then think about
rec.sport.baseball	wfan article apr virginia edu jja virginia edu writes does any one out there listen wfan for those you who not know what talking about all sports radio staion new york clear night the signal reaches and down the east coast particular want know how len berman and mike lupica show school virginia can listen when there are during the day just wondering the fan okay sports radio station but doesn come close the ultimate sports radio wip philadelphia the signal might not powerful but then again only stations new york feel obligated pollute everyone else airwaves with bunch hoodlum mets fans complaining hours day wip took two your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip rockin with sports talk from till midnight check out anytime your within few hours philadelphia not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings the nation rob the only nice thing about the fan that they talk sports all night hopefully will begin that somewhat soon
rec.sport.baseball	expanded strike zone was surfeit offense was impression watching the mets rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt too but not far the letters would nice this were the case jay
rec.sport.baseball	fenway gif was wondering anyone had any kind fenway park gif would appreciate someone could send one thanks advance dan
rec.sport.baseball	harry caray last night bill veeck cam dreams and this what said cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs scuk cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs cuck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck cubs suck yeah aqlso added that harry drunken idiot who shoulda stayed louis where his heart but also added that fair weathered fans all like together guess this the reason harry now cub fan bud man note never really left louis jim walker sox cubs suck
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions laugh article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes oops came across this file from last year thought you might enjoy some these thoughts the predictions were made the date indicated they are largely out order much crap deleted managers fired this year chronological order fregosi showalter valentine riddoch three them went right showalter still around and likely stick seems dead wrong last time checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite fine job thank you best record baseball prediction for jim fregosi will win manager the year the don flame flame the bum who thinks got fired last year pay attention kiddo
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame steve tomassi writes baseball fans what you say don you think deserves mean heck dave winfield hum seriously being considered for lee smith then why don give dave kingman chance darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall fame takes them can take eddie murray and jeff reardon well any case sick and tired mostly sick everybody giving hall fame consideration players that are today standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal let little more selective huh stop handing out these honors liberally save them for the guys who really deserve face something isn done there will little prestige the hall fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity apparent gee can these guys even compare the more likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan steve what the difference between nolan ryan and yount both have hung around for years and continue post great stats why shouldn dave kingman get into the hall murray evens reardon and others what the hell you have ask opposing pitcher whether thinks that winfield should the hall god pretty soon you saying that cal ripken doesn deserve the hall then flame you chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick judge quick anger slow understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand hand
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed majors article apr holos uucp lbr holos uucp len reed writes article tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn bob horner straight from arizona state univ the atlanta braves remember had one great month hitting dingers and then the next heard was japan month well did have short career compared what one might have expected for such highly touted prospect due being injury prone overweight and having work ethic but certainly did not suffer from being rushed the bigs sorry len this exactly how suffered from being rushed the bigs being overweight and having work ethic leading being injury prone with nothing loose might have been corrected richmond did you intend smiley after your comment this brings back the long suffering memories pre chop braves fans who kept being promised the bob horner dale murphy back back power slam who could stop that guess never know rocky fans are there any yet dale getting any playing time out there plan the game june they have play him then read that memory and process russell earnest georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp allegra amd hplabs seismo ngp gatech prism arpa russell earnest housing gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	phillies mailing list anyone know phillies mailing list out there they don get much coverage here grand rapids sob elaborate signature files are for people who aren busy david hollebeek dholle ursa calvin edu
rec.sport.baseball	people want stats article hpfcso com dougs hpfcso com doug steele wri tes this top posting for the home runs hits batter team hrs batter team hits gonzalez tex baerga cle palmer tex phillips det did anyone think that texas would have the top two home run leaders given point the season and neither one would jose canseco steve steve casburn scasburn magnus acs ohio state edu personally despair results from anything but violent and ruthless truth telling that will work the end even slowly john maynard keynes
rec.sport.baseball	white sox update think lamont tryin sax out left because messing with his mind trying stir loose the mental block that has had sax was supposed play left last night but were rained out not like need add any more outfielders our team mental jimmy sox cubs suck that the white sox dontcha know
rec.sport.baseball	cubs expos roster questions article apr pavo concordia klein pavo concordia corelmark wrote article msu oscs montana edu alird msu oscs montana edu writes article apr vmsb csupomona edu cvadrnlh vmsb csupomona edu writes today cubs activated mike harkey from whom did they move make room for harkey also are delino deshields john wetteland the expos the thanks for anyone who can give more info ken cal poly pomona wetteland the effective march something like that rick the cubs sent boskie iowa make room for harkey jeff eastman jaeastman anl gov
rec.sport.baseball	seeking moe berg reference info article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes seem have misplaced the baseball bibliography that was posted here recently that what happens when you have split heap disorganized files from one machine among two others could some kind soul repost the bibliography mail copy also particular colleague mine looking for any information can find moe berg catcher linguist espion any references anecdotes for that matter would appreciated dave believe had depth article moe while ago remember that the article revealed some new facts regarding the secretive moe subscription expired this past february the second two years that received same therefore guess that the article appeared sometime can anyone else more definitive date the article jerry
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes after reading local paper today found out that the phillies started the season not old but heard many talk about the serious choke job the phillies did that season they were ahead the cardinals games that season mid august they managed lose bunch from then and the cardinals took the division games ahead and lost hope this season much different strictly from memory think the phillies were something like ten games with lost row and last lose the cardinals seems impossible but thats how remember also felt the time that johnny callison the phillies lost the mvp product their swoon jerry single team out won the pennant divisions
rec.sport.baseball	orioles trivia article apr hpcvaac com paula koufax com paul andresen writes article apr galileo rochester edu sparky balsa lle rochester edu michael mueller writes all does anyone know who were the pitchers for the orioles that were referred the kiddy corp because they were young steve barber chuck estrada jack fisher milt pappas this list brings mind possible the worst trade since babe for nono nannette milt pappas for frank robinson think robinson proceeded win the triple crown and may have beaten out yaz but was injured slide into second when collided with the mighty weis chisox jerry
rec.sport.baseball	dumb fans was indians woofing article bcc ohstpy mps ohio state edu letizia ohstpy mps ohio state edu writes you mean just like reds fans have you listened wlw anytime they open the lines for fans call talk about clueless idiots the broadcasters are just bad too the new york talk shows are just awful this regard people are constantly calling wfan and wabc with stuff like was thinking why don the yankees trade kaminicki and silvestri seattle for ken griffey and randy johnson that would really help the team you think the yankees can get roger clemens the show hosts are pretty good about handling these guys but still annoying the best one was the end one show caller started out with was thinking why don the yankees trade for and then the host hung him cheered michael
rec.sport.baseball	tigers article vsanu miamiu bitnet ryan kearns vsanu miamiu bitnet writes think that the detroit tigers are the greatest baseball organization all time shameless woofing deleted behalf the rest tiger fans out here appoligize for this shameless woofing try keep minimum but did win game the other day sometimes hard control see phillies fans michael
rec.sport.baseball	missing subject header article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has the worst manager baseball for anyone who didn see sunday game with right hander pitching decides bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers that because lankford had minor injury from couple games before that and was day day only available pinchrunner later the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs puts lankford hitter with power pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with power pinch hitter what the hell thinking see above earlier the game interview about acquiring mark whiten commented how fortunate the cardinals were get whiten and that whiten would regular even though this meant that gilkey would hurt but torre said liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does have start the guy would starting most every team the league the beginning the interview torre also said lankford the one outfield guy who there matter what guess jordan will eventually end being odd man out due low base percentage whiten was great acquisition decent offense and great defense rightfield but don worry gilkey will starting soon jordan whiten displays extended period low offensive output
rec.sport.baseball	dean palmer hurt edward ouellette edo casbah acns nwu edu wrote think dean got hit pitched ball the other night got pinch hit for and didn play against baltimore tonight whats with that hurt please tell not evidentally got hit the elbow fernando pitch his arm swelled from the elbow the wrist something like that they took rays the arm and there nothing damaged missed the last game with the orioles but suppose ready for the next game hope this helps mike west west esd nec com
rec.sport.baseball	scoring runs was notes jays indians series article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes right you also forgot that you can get rbi barring with nobody base what fraction all runs come solo actually for the padres this year far they are the league hrs and all have been solo shots pythagorean projection puts them winning percentage need some pitching help fast good news though that hurst has been throwing curveballs any pain threw pitches yesterday should back couple weeks maybe can trade him the yankees for militello dave dave demers demers ucsd edu computer science engineering demers ucsd bitnet san diego ucsd demers jolla fax
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes some pleasant and then some not pleasant surprises about the edition the bronx bombers far first the pleasant spike owen all through spring training this guy was looking like the second coming mike gallego but with even worse hitting now the guy third the major leagues and ranked pretty high total hits and runs scored know still early the season but and pat kelly more him minute have provided lot spark the bottom the order that given the big guys mattingly tartabull neill plenty rbi opportunities let hope keeps this pat kelly the guy finally showing some the ability that led stick michael label him star for the wouldn that far but kelly looks infinitely improved bat guess the tips took from boggs spring training really paid off huh and here thought boggs would never anything help anybody besides himself and his glove like always has been terrific and mattingly comprise the best defensive right side the infield all baseball imho paul neill had get rid roberto kelly partly because was under too much pressure the next barry bonds won that cincy either and partly because had this real unprofessional tendency give the second half the year just felt that could gotten more for him than neill well far neill turning out just fine looks like should able duplicate not surpass mel hall numbers from last year and keeps opposing pitchers from pitching around tartabull now only buck would play him against lefties some more see what can wickman friend made comparison between wickman and jack morris they never have impressive stats but they always find some way win although morris seems losing that ability figured that wickman would the least important part the steve sax trade best trade since got that ruth guy maybe winding good middle reliever but like what seen far doesn pitch pretty but gets the job done key what going here key was just supposed provide the rotation with some stability you know shore the left side provide experience get maybe wins and here this guy dominating everybody faces who needs maddux cone take key any day and now the not pleasant surprises spike owen sure hitting like crazy but the guy cannot field save his life and they said was brought provide defense velarde stankiewicz and even silvestri are better defensively than owen remember still early look for his offense tail off and his defense improve hopefully has that rep because heard that either last year over the last years something like that has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind and tony not gonna help this sorry mets team all fernandez agree though that has not looked all that impressive the field thus far tartabull the book tartabull was keep him healthy and produce well hasn done too much far sure hit few homers but those were all solo shots and hasn gotten any the big rbis that your cleanup man supposed give you then again had slow start last year once got off the that and turned into one man wrecking crew late the year see the bullpen ugh what happened were supposed have one the most solid pens the majors meanwhile the pen has already blown three saves maybe more haven checked the great howe farr lefty righty tandem farr era the and howe infinite didn think such thing was possible but hopefully they get their acts together else buck gonna burn out the starters for fear that the bullpen blow lead the immortal words the scooter holy cow seaver that johnny key guy can pitch can see you the series alan
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has the worst manager baseball brian very distressed cardinal fan hal mcrae the worst manager baseball never seen guy who can waste talent like can one the best raw talent staffs the league and still finding way lose surprised makes through the next weeks unless drastic improvement made even more frustrated royals fan darin keener dak vma smsu edu
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame article jbse kkk news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes are you for real how many gold gloves does ozzie smith have guy hung around and hit homers year for years wouldn given for the hall defense not just important frankly offense and defense are equally important but the pitcher the defense the primary role every other player offense even shortstops are bigger part the offensive game than the defensive game they might not much with their part the offense but that another issue that being said think both smith and yount deserve the hof they hit pretty well addition their defense cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja jerry sheldev shel isc com gerald lanza writes single team out won the pennant divisions make that ten not eight the mets and astros joined the eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions laugh article jcrf krm news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes dead wrong last time checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite fine job thank you best record baseball look asshole got him confused with somebody else didn flame you and would appreciate you extended the same courtesy don know everything the world does that surprise you valentine
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article qkkodinn jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help hank greenberg would have the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season was world series games because yom kippur the other jewish hof rod carew who converted lowenstein jewish well montana only representative the major leagues undeserving young award winner steve stone jewish between stone koufax ken holtzman might have the wrong pitcher thinking the one who threw hitter both the and and big reulbach that quite starting rotation moe berg can catch harry steinfeldt the the tinkers evers chance infield stanky jewish that just dave cohen kinda misinterpretation whatever doesn look like stuck around the majors too long ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	found the secret article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes why are the red sox first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight three days rest what are the sox going with four man rotation this why hesketh was used relief last night clemens going his normal four days rest last pitched saturday hesketh only pitched one inning yesterday afternoon his first outing since aborted inning start days before should plenty rested his expected turn this saturday the starter not that this good thing course like see well managed four man rotation with this team glenn waugaman digital equipment corporation littleton waugaman nac enet dec com
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and stankiewicz not stankowitz and not jewish polish the way the correct pronunciation according stanky himself ston kev itch all the sportscasters get wrong maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help the only other jewish ballplayer can think ron blomberg who best known being the first appear major league ballgame alan
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help hank greenberg sid gordon ron blomberg guess goes from the sublime the ridiculous
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions laugh edward ted fischer writes robert hite writes dead wrong last time checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite fine job thank you best record baseball look asshole got him confused with somebody else didn flame you and would appreciate you extended the same courtesy what your problem hite post wasn flame was correction your error your reply was flame don know everything the world does that surprise you not the least steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article apr pts mot com pts mot com writes this certainly passes the common sense test for but there any statistical evidence say what percent defense pitching and what percent fielding not yet wish there were much more difficult tease these apart than tease apart scoring runs and preventing runs and thus come one the true beauties baseball these things along with many others will never separated almost everything baseball situational and interdependent this what allows carry all the arguments that have everything could explained and balanced statistical basis none the wonder and mystery would left why might have resort just going out the ballyard and enjoy the game itself paul feeling little anti stathead today will stretch farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax com paul andresen hewlett packard home mckinley corvallis sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	true story way omar article apr esca com vigil esca com sandra vigil writes yesterday april friend and were discussing the theory put forth local sports radio station personality that the commissioner less baseball owners had snuck live ball into this years baseball games effort increase home run numbers and attract fans always possible but this the case think that there some blatant discrimination going here clearly selig allowing the opposition use pre baseballs against the dodgers well guess who stepped the plate for his first career grand slam last night against the jays none other than boy was truly sight behold and almost more impressive was that also got intentional walk will stretch farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax com paul andresen hewlett packard home mckinley corvallis sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially the braves least until they started winning was are they still officially why and how did they receive this label understanding was that ted turner owner the braves started running his station nationwide and started running all his team games his nationwide station dubbed his team america team that the only team least the time all whose games could seen across america now wor nationwide out beautiful secaucus but not all mets games are wor wgn chicago and wsbk boston are two other superstations least they are the east coast don know how many cubs sox sox games they show hymie hymowitz jhu edu mellow when dead weird yankovic you get your mellow laid back attitude from sonny the cuckoo bird josh about
rec.sport.baseball	super tough baseball trivia article apr ncar ucar edu amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin writes the bruce springsteen video glory days from the born the usa album they show two quick shots baseball game television the bar bruce and the street band are playing name the teams which stadium who the pitcher what two batters down swinging also the end the video bruce throwing wooden strike zone and his last pitch young boy lines base hit into center bruce and the kid walk the field the kid asks him how did today bruce mentions the team was playing and that certain player got him the bottom the ninth name the player and the team sandiego and graig nettles anyone gets these impressed anthony jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd box boulder
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for sat apr mlb standings and scores for satruday april including yesterday games national west won lost pct last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros won atlanta braves lost los angeles dodgers won colorado rockies lost san diego padres won cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies lost pittsburgh pirates lost louis cardinals lost new york mets won chicago cubs won montreal expos won florida marlins lost american west won lost pct last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels lost chicago white sox won minnesota twins won oakland athletics lost seattle mariners lost kansas city royals lost american east boston red sox lost new york yankees won detroit tigers won toronto blue jays lost cleveland indians won baltimore orioles won milwaukee brewers lost yesterday scores idle teams listed alphabetical order national league american league new york mets chicago white sox cincinnati reds boston red sox florida marlins california angels houston astros baltimore orioles philadelphia phillies kansas city royals chicago cubs minnesota twins colorado rockies seattle mariners montreal expos detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates toronto blue jays los angeles dodgers cleveland indians atlanta braves texas rangers san francisco giants new york yankees louis cardinals oakland athletics ppd san diego padres milwaukee brewers rain joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes there book that you can find sale catalogues occasionally called jewish baseball stars and baseball mavin peter bjarkman has compiled pretty definitive list jewish ballplayers the bigs wish hadn sold copy jewish baseball stars short shelf the one top the toilet tank special the writing that books astonishingly awful every sportswriting cliche taken the nth degree and then mangled that funny rusinow the author think roger
rec.sport.baseball	phills pirates hate the burden bad news but think will this time the phillies usually play either eastern time for weekdays sundays the time usually eastern time boise idaho idaho part the mountain time zone and part the pacific time zone the times that were given were for mountain time zone starts please check map case wrong but certain that boise the mountain time zone thanks for listening the shep
rec.sport.baseball	jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players article unix amherst edu ddsokol unix amherst edu daniel sokol writes roger lustig roger crux princeton edu wrote article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes article world std com eastgate world std com mark bernstein writes for that matter how many gentleman the press box have been jewish the only jewish sportscaster that comes mind steve williams who had phillies show kyw philadelphia the howard cosell one who comes mind gee think len berman jewish how about steve stone wgn who does the cubs already got him under pitchers overrated jewish tony korhiezer and shirly povich maury dad the washington post probably shirley still alive just wondering roger danny
rec.sport.baseball	let talk phillies article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article apr leland stanford edu eechen leland stanford edu emery ethan chen writes one phrase for you you thanks perhaps time start rec sport baseball graffiti where the kiddies can yell taunts and insults each other and leave the rest peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com well sherri agree with you except that most kiddies have more sense than spew their obscenities front group adults try edit this newsgroup and feed one the local elementary schools they have group students that just love baseball and are learning use computers but telling you gotten the point that don even edit the files anymore just read them and throw out the trash and thanks all you people that think wonderful include swear word two your signature files that really nice have read the whole article and then toss out because the sig don get wrong know all the words you and even made some own wouldn able edit them out but this just doesn seem the place public forum spew foul language sorry thanks all you people that keep mind there might some decent young people interested baseball and computers reading this newsgroup they enjoy your articles phil
rec.sport.baseball	what with all these scores article innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes article apr news yale edu sean garrison writes stuff about upated inning scores deleted just that exact time see the message even results after the game over are not necessary thanks hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day supposed take that compliment put down just wondering this service the entire baseball world usenet especially for those the east coast who can get final scores for west coast games their newspapers late newscasts this helpful fans other countries who either receive only weekly scores updates the week also many have requested for this kind service previously but was only available through bbs some pay news services the way mine free charge and has copyright restrictions you want send updates and scores set private mailing list and use that remember only post final scores and the updated standings once day the rec sport baseball newsgroup other than that everything done through private mail currently there are people mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others and the list grows average people day people usenet really don want see the postings rec sport baseball daily basis please just let know the response overwhelming against the posts won anymore thanks for your time joseph hernandez joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially the braves least until they started winning was are they still officially why and how did they receive this label probably because everyone that everyone who has cable can watch every braves game they are the only team that has all its games broadcast nationwide and you don like your local team you don have local team the braves can kind become your local team because you can watch them every day outta here like vladimir alan what this this ice this what happens water when gets too cold this this kent this what happens people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg update won long now all you ryno fans and those interested todays chicago tribune had this written today regards ryne sandberg ryne sandberg ahead schedule his recovery from broken left hand and could back the lineup may manager jim lefebvre said friday doctors cleared sandberg swing padded bat ball his gloved hand not surprised his rehabilitation has been moved said lefebvre fast healer and doesn like being the disabled list been running since was hurt march and the best shape his life may his target date for getting back the lineup hold your hats cub fans more later information presents itself jeffery
rec.sport.baseball	how keep score like the officials hello all like learn how keep score when watch ball games using official scoring methods where can get scoresheets and instructions how use them appreciate mike hofstadter law always takes michael wilson longer than you think even you idoy crux cit cornell edu take into account hofstadter law douglas hofstadter
rec.sport.baseball	ryno correction made mistake the posted article been fighting food poisoning for last hours the second paragraph should state the following doctors cleared sandberg swing padded bat ball tee and catch ball his gloved hand sorry for the error didn know until after posting jeffery
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages shortstop article steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard the second highest year ever still very good but don like the way his numbers have declined every year few years may defensive liability that rich ozzie smith defensive liability brett rogers addison leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	surgery for hal morris and then cjkuo symantec com jimmy kuo quoth does strike anyone else how silly impose game suspension morris let see expect back june how many games play before june take off the games before june would lot more meaningful the suspension went into effect some number games after came back well either way the reds have play man down for days jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants the most beautiful equation mathematics magic for all sad words tongue and pen the saddest are these number might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well guess because america loves underdogs every year matter the cubs talent the predictions they never close never possible win anything over the years the losing has mounted america has fallen love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans chicago then some teams worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most the teams their division combined aura excitement surrounds the cubs the beginning the season like one else including the champs must that eternal hope actually admired the spirit the fan the cubs opener several years ago who held sign that said wait till next year eric smith threatened was president the erics netcom com united states you investigate what the erics infoserv com difference comedian the united states jerry seinfeld
rec.sport.baseball	royals randall moose randall informix com randall rhea writes the royals are darkness they are the void our time when they play shame descends upon the land like cold front from canada they are humiliation all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that guess they lighten what depresses that they might actually finish last which believe hasn happened since their second season never mind that gubizca with era gardner our main recent acquisitions lind mcreynolds jose are averaging david cone about how was doing before joining the mets several years ago our hitting sucks and our pitching has collapsed and won one game home they won more games their first ten games than last year and brian mcrae actually batting over the mendoza line rich
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages shortstop article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes article steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard the second highest year ever still very good but don like the way his numbers have declined every year few years may defensive liability that rich ozzie smith defensive liability why not brooks robinson defensive liability too and ted williams weak hitter even great players decline they age valentine
rec.sport.baseball	tribune times article amb unix amherst edu ddsokol unix amherst edu daniel sokol writes pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu wrote the chicago tribune baseball coverage any good does the new york times have daily coverage boxscores don know about the tribune but the times has daily coverage and boxscores course they have special emphasis the yankees and mets beware the original poster looks from louisville and chances are louisville gets the edition the nytimes that printed chicago for the midwest this edition has boxscores only monday and sunday and extremely skimpy sports section few game summaries mostly just color stories bradley brock department mathematics rose hulman institute technology resist not evil love your enemies brock nextwork rose hulman edu some nazarene carpenter
rec.sport.baseball	ozzie smith defensive liability article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes article steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard the second highest year ever still very good but don like the way his numbers have declined every year few years may defensive liability that rich ozzie smith defensive liability why you expect him remain the best shortstop the game until reaches his seventy third birthday something why such strange concept that forty one year old ozzie smith might defensive liability ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	phills pirates mlb pit phi monday pittsburg philadelphia tuesday pittsburg philadelphia wednesday pittsburg philadelphia friday philadelphia pittsburg saturday philadelphia pittsburg sunday philadelphia pittsburg friday pittsburg philadelphia saturday pittsburg philadelphia sunday pittsburg philadelphia monday philadelphia pittsburg tuesday philadelphia pittsburg wednesday philadelphia pittsburg thursday philadelphia pittsburg are these times correct they seem they are hrs ahead the usual tiems for these two teams the origin that first message was boise which central time tierney whoops meant mountain time tierney
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages shortstop article apr leland stanford edu addison leland stanford edu brett rogers writes article steph pegasus uiuc edu steph pegasus uiuc edu dale stephenson writes smith ozzie the wizard the second highest year ever still very good but don like the way his numbers have declined every year few years may defensive liability that rich ozzie smith defensive liability why you suppose immune the ravages time few years doesn get many grounders used and will get fewer still his legs they every human far remember willie mays was defensive liability end his career too ditto mickey mantle ditto just about everyone else who played into their late roger brett rogers addison leland stanford edu
rec.sport.baseball	what with all these scores article qplh agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez writes article innfjg senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes article apr news yale edu sean garrison writes stuff about upated inning scores deleted just that exact time see the message even results after the game over are not necessary thanks hernandez who posts daily standings and results here every day supposed take that compliment put down just wondering was meant entirely compliment this service the entire baseball world usenet especially for those the east coast who can get final scores for west coast games their newspapers late newscasts this helpful fans other countries who either receive only weekly scores updates the week also many have requested for this kind service previously but was only available through bbs some pay news services the way mine free charge and has copyright restrictions was not trying criticize your service all fact was trying encourage others use don personally use but sure others and that was point posting there need for individuals duplicate hoc fashion what you have already organized you want send updates and scores set private mailing list and use that remember only post final scores and the updated standings once day the rec sport baseball newsgroup other than that everything done through private mail currently there are people mailing list that branches off into other mailing lists available for many others and the list grows average people day having one person such yourself who does great idea having not that all keep the good work joseph charles
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially the braves least until they started winning was are they still officially why and how did they receive this label there team repeat team that america team this diverse country with mlb teams north and there one team that america who would the other teams belong and how does happen well teams receive this monicker through success cowboys national exposure cubs both braves spreas aby successful advertising campaigns harry caray ted turner amd other dupe people into thinking that their representative teams are hip that people will watch them and buy their products arrogant local fans adapt the monicker and think that their team the one that america idolize comes down dollars and egos tierney
rec.sport.baseball	kevin rogers hpcc rec sport baseball pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu apr what with kevin rogers san francisco thought was slated the fifth starter but only gotten few relief appearences are they going with four starters for now someone else the fifth thanks tierney giant have five man rotation john burkett trevor wilson bill swift jeff brantley and bud black dave burba black has been put the day disables and dave burba will take his starts
rec.sport.baseball	mel hall has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard wasn with the yankees any more what happened him doug dolven doug dolven warped montana edu gdd trex oscs montana edu
rec.sport.baseball	the mets are rapists writes the new book about the mets talks about how they like rape little girls before games sick jerks max this the book bob klapisch spelling the worst team money can buy wouldn give the book anything any value whatsoever klapisch wrote the book make money obviously and sensational literature going sell lot better than what usually writes for the papers not calling him liar but there was any proof that met player had raped little girl before game let alone doing regular basis they would jail not shea for those people who not know what the press like new york probably more cut throat than just about any other part the keith hernandez said very well espn couple days ago they would much rather mention clubhouse fight than two run homer the ninth win game not read klapisch news columns regularly but know that has been accused before being instigator that enjoys hopefully for only professional reasons drumb news story even there isn one there now far the confrontation with bobby bonilla few days ago almost totally blame bonilla matter what member the press does and matter how much putrid individual might that does not give ballplayer the right threaten journalist personally always thought that beat writer that always follows club around should report the news but not looking degrade team don know whether blame klapisch because that may the only way keep job new york
rec.sport.baseball	mel hall warped montana edu writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard wasn with the yankees any more what happened him doug dolven japan think
rec.sport.baseball	mel hall article apr coe montana edu warped montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard wasn with the yankees any more what happened him doug dolven doug dolven warped montana edu gdd trex oscs montana edu mel hall signed with japanese team mike mike columbia edu
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir article murdoch acc virginia edu david robert walker writes article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one also has separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and give baserunning little more credit than that maybe even give team roberto alomar and team john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn that unreasonable and even you don let roberto steal single base they score lot more than the oleruds going first third more often offense gordon wouldn give baserunning that much value the above effect clear but there are other effects well olerud hits double any runner first will score alomar legs extra base onto hit the gap the runner first may need hold third thus olerud doubles have more advancement value than alomar course alomar more likely score after hitting double another reason not give too much extra value baserunning that the runs created formulas work for very fast and very slow teams team the ran much but some teams certainly had faster players than others still the current runs created formulas work just well the for all teams bill james gives the senators example they used harmon killebrew regularly pinch runner and stole bases with times caught stealing yet they scored slightly more runs than predicted runs created david grabiner grabiner zariski harvard edu are sorry but the number you have dialed imaginary please rotate your phone degrees and try again disclaimer speak for one and one speaks for
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame article mssc gqe netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes kingman fan just thought point out that the only player history have five three games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each johnny mize had six three games which the current record bob holt rjh allegra att com
rec.sport.baseball	fenway gif love see shea stadium gif sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	what with all these scores article qplh agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez wrote people usenet really don want see the postings rec sport baseball daily basis please just let know the response overwhelming against the posts won anymore thanks for your time joseph hernandez hernandez apologize for the misunderstanding explained that know that essential for some fans get scores here for they cannot get them elsewhere have problem with what you posting scores after the games have been completed however like said earlier don think necessity post scores during the middle games like some others have come practice sean
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players article apr lehigh edu jsr lehigh edu john stephen randolph writes article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes recently been working project determine the greatest players their respective postions sources are total baseball james historical abstract the ballplayers biography word mouth and own biased opinions feel free comment suggest flame whatever but tried objective possible using statistical data not inlcuded for time convience sake judged rel adj ops total average fielding range runs total player rating total baseball stolen bases for curiosity sake tpr and years played mvp mike schmidt matthews one eddie mathews george brett wade boggs ron santo brooks robinson frank baker darrell evans pie traynor ray dandridge how can brooks think would least ahead ron santo because small advantage fielding ability comes nowhere near making for the large difference hitting their average seasons using their combined average per games years rbi avg obp slg ops santo robinson fielding have per games third years pct santo robinson even robinson extra putouts assists and dps are taken mean was responsible for more outs the field that doesn make for the extra outs made the plate not mention the fewer total bases the difference ops should decreased about account for wrigley but difference still considerable the thorn palmer ratings are adjusted adjusted stolen fielding total production batting runs base runs runs rating santo robinson usual disclaimers about apply but they really shouldn way off the mark this comparison least better than fielding percentage carney lansford has best all time but dead last all time also since this total rating compares players league average instead replacement level robinson should awarded extra for playing more games had great career but would prefer santo plus years replacement level bman but would knock traynor off the list and replace him stan hack that similar story hack far better hitting outweighs traynor superior fielding graig nettles and buddy bell would also better choices imho course though some recent net discussion supports this point view andre dawson shouldn that right field bob holt rjh allegra att com
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir grabiner math harvard edu david grabiner writes article murdoch acc virginia edu david robert walker writes article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one also has separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and give baserunning little more credit than that maybe even give team roberto alomar and team john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn that unreasonable and even you don let roberto steal single base they score lot more than the oleruds going first third more often offense gordon wouldn give baserunning that much value meant comment this the time there just way baserunning could that important was runs created wouldn nearly accurate runs created usually about accurate team level and there lot more than baserunning that has account for the remaining percent greg
rec.sport.baseball	hits stolen second base disclaimer this for fun computerized baseball game keep track category called stolen hits defined play made that average fielder would not make with average effort using the defensive averages posted sherri nichols thanks sherri figured out some defensive stats for the second basemen hits stolen have been redefined plays kurt stillwell would not have made realize that unfair kurt probably the victim pitching staff fluke shots and monster park factor but let put this way replaced every second baseman the with someone with kurt out making ability how many extra hits would try and correlate reality little more calculated net hits stolen based the number outs made compared what league average fielder would make the same method calculated net double plays and net extra bases doubles and triples let finally throw all this into formula call defensive contribution dcon basically represents the defensive contribution player add this number ops get dops defense onbase plus slug which should represent the player total contribution the team don take too seriously the formula for dcon appears the end this article the short version definition terms hits stolen extra outs compared kurt stillwell nhs net hits stolen extra outs compared average fielder ndp net double plays extra double plays turned compared avg fielder neb net extra bases extra bases prevented compared avg fielder dcon defensive contribution bases and hits prevented rate dops dcon ops quick dirty measure player total contribution national league name nhs ndp neb dcon dops alicea sandberg thompson lind doran deshields harris lemke morandini randolph biggio stillwell ordered dops sandberg alicea thompson deshields doran average biggio harris randolph morandini lemke lind stillwell american league name nhs ndp neb dcon dops fletcher reed ripken baerga blankenship miller alomar knoblauch bordick kelly whitaker reynolds sax sojo order dops baerga alomar fletcher whitaker blankenship miller knoblauch reed bordick average kelly ripken reynolds sojo sax more discussion dcon formula nhs ndp nhs ndp neb why such bizzare formula basically designed added into the ops with the idea that run prevented important run scored the extra outs are factored into obp while the extra bases removed are factored into slg that why used and the divisors for more discussion see the post hits stolen first base dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions laugh steve novak writes edward ted fischer writes robert hite writes dead wrong last time checked jim fregosi was still managing the phillies and doing quite fine job thank you best record baseball look asshole got him confused with somebody else didn flame you and would appreciate you extended the same courtesy what your problem hite post wasn flame was correction your error that last was steve novak since read the entire original posting hite fischer was actually restrained let hite hope never makes some similar tiny mistake steve novak ban the bomb ban the pope steven advtech uswest com
rec.sport.baseball	mel hall article apr coe montana edu warped montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard wasn with the yankees any more what happened him doug dolven mel alive and well and playing japan the yanks let him because was asking for too much money and because they thought that they were going get barry bonds making hall obsolete oopsie well least they got neill replace the mel man outta here like vladimir alan scene from real genius where val kilmer trying pick gorgeous blonde val there anything can for you more the point you you just let know blonde can you hammer six inch spike through board with your penis val not right now blonde girl gotta have her standards she walks away
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris today april jack morris has lost his first three starts however the jays are doing well without him and injured dave stuart this credit the rest the pitching staff has jack lost bit his edge what the worst start jack morris has had
rec.sport.baseball	dodgers take straight from pirates article qqob innqev mizar usc edu pcaster mizar usc edu dodger writes davis and strawberry attributed their turn arounds reggie smith the dodger batting coach who flew from florida three days ago and gave them pep talk and some instruction davis was yesterday and had couple more hits today strawberry had two hits yesterday and believe had two more today with two home runs foolish and here thought had something with the fact that they were hitting against wakefield who had kncukle his ball that day and otto who has stuff wonder reggie gave the same pep talk and instruction the rest the lineup who also suddenly came alive those two games the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	official rules baseball isbn trying get copy the official rules baseball someone once sent the isbn number but have since lost can anyone give this information tell where can find the book none local bookstores have walking home from school and watching jack mckinney some men building new house and the guy ham jmckinney tamu edu mering the roof calls paranoid little weirdo morse code this space emo philips for rent
rec.sport.baseball	 doug roberts ken hill for mvp let spos
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes article apr husc harvard edu fry zariski harvard edu david fry writes once jeopardy the category was jewish sports heros believe not the answer was this pitcher had four hitters with the dodgers the the contestant said who hank aaron alex trebek said something like don think hank aaron was pitcher well jewish name roger that right remember hank greenberg
rec.sport.baseball	mel hall article apr coe montana edu warped montana edu doug dolven writes has anyone heard anything about mel hall this season heard wasn with the yankees any more what happened him japan playing baseball tom gwitt gwittt alleg edu
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg runs rbis was notes jays indians series article jqby news rich bnr bratt crchh nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away john bratt you asked for guess that doesn bode well for the cubs then does doug roberts willing trade frank bolick for bag used baseballs let expos
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially the braves least until they started winning was are they still officially why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without doubt america team the cubs why well guess because america loves underdogs every year matter the cubs talent the predictions they never close never possible win anything over the years the losing has mounted america has fallen love with these perennial losers the cubs have more fans chicago then some teams worldwide the cubs have more fans worldwide than most the teams their division combined aura excitement surrounds the cubs the beginning the season like one else including the champs must that eternal hope this the year they got the talent they off good start they got the pitching hitting whatever their strong point the time that inevitability that the cubs will eventually win the again when only god knows since been long could come any time could another years but until they finally win and start winning consistently the cubs will remain america lovable underdogs the cubs are america team orin bradley the defenition the underdog team that has talent and comes out nowhere contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs root for the cubs because feel sorry for them but basically they are dogs the pirates today are great example underdog the rockies and marlins compete they will underdogs the north stars trip the stanley cup finals was good example underdog journey the cubs have good team this year and play weak division they are much less than america team really jester disguise chintan amin the university illinois urbanachampaign mail llama uiuc edu neil peart quick judge quick anger slow understand ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand hand
rec.sport.baseball	tigers pound mariners were they palying football baseball detroit saturday from looking the school some people may think was football between two games this week the tigers scored runs the offense can carry them hope the pitching will hold out was camden yards yesterday everytime looked the score was getting higher what great site was see the tigers kicking butt while enjoying game camden yards tigers and tony phillips
rec.sport.baseball	scott erickson does anyone have the scoop scot erickson how long going out for
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition the underdog team that has talent and comes out nowhere contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but virtually impossible win division with talent over games would amend your definition underdog team expected lose but which wins thanks underestimated talent dave
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again the team record today frank viola and rest pitcher staff boston red sox shutout chicago white sox red sox win this season far red sox won all the games roger and frank pitched and when other three starters were pitching tomorrow dopson will pitch again have good first start and rocky second start wonder that bosox can play over ball without roger and frank
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players dave kingman jewish bob comarow eisner decus org
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why previous article steinman utoronto david steinman says cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition the underdog team that has talent and comes out nowhere contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but virtually impossible win division with talent over games would amend your definition underdog team expected lose but which wins thanks underestimated talent dave the mets and are good examples but what about the reds you really think that anyone expected them sweep the know people who didn even think they win game let alone win the series proved them wrong though didn for this year ignore their record now they had rocky start and that has nothing with colorado they shall rise again the hunt for reds october continues with all due respect wlw bye michelson spring olympics champions road rally legged race rope pull snarf penny wars banner spirit cheer the michelson menace rides again don you just love that intense nationalistic feeling residence hall
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series article hpcv andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes guess which line which obp slg just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list give break little delayed but the interests fairness stats from elias obp slg rbi rni outs alomar baerga see that baerga has large advantage rbi runs batted rni runners not driven and outs john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	baseball spreads how does one read the betting spreads for baseball they tend something like which means must not runs thanks david rex wood davewood colorado edu university colorado boulder
rec.sport.baseball	rockies need some relief once again the rockies bullpen fell apart andy ashby pitched six somewhat shaky innings giving just one run then game the dreaded relief three picthers combined give runs one each believe the inning and blew the save opportunity final was expos despite their problems the pen think the rockies are team that wont taken lightly going into today game the had the league leading hitter and rbi man galarraga two the leaders stolen bases young and cole and increasingly strong starting pitching david rex wood davewood colorado edu university colorado boulder
rec.sport.baseball	rockies need some relief article apr colorado edu davewood bruno colorado edu david rex wood writes shaky innings giving just one run then game the dreaded relief three picthers combined give runs one each believe the inning taken lightly going into today game the had the league leading geez can type what david rex wood davewood colorado edu university colorado boulder
rec.sport.baseball	baseball spreads article apr colorado edu davewood bruno colorado edu david rex wood writes how does one read the betting spreads for baseball they tend something like which means must not runs that spread means you bet the underdog win the favorite win charles
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again the team record article jxu black clarku edu jxu black clarku edu dark wing duck writes today frank viola and rest pitcher staff boston red sox shutout chicago white sox red sox win this season far red sox won all the games roger and frank pitched and when other three starters were pitching tomorrow dopson will pitch again have good first start and rocky second start wonder that bosox can play over ball without roger and frank long the yankees are the same division the red sox will play better than baseball the red sox can hire former east german swimming coaches train them the fine art body building the red sox can use chinese women swimmers reference with the hawk the red sox definitely have chance for the east this year brings class work ethic and leadership the park each day and has burning desire play the world series future hall famer andre dawson will kick butt boston from rockies country anthony jivoin national center for atmospheric research rsf atd box boulder
rec.sport.baseball	royals article spork camelot spork camelot bradley edu richard izzo writes about darkness deleted lighten what depresses that they might actually finish last which believe hasn happened since their second season nope the royals are the only team the majors that have not finished last place course this doesn include the marlins and the rockies but they have good chance finishing last also rich
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris previous article tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer says article cinnpel skeena ucs ubc stlouis unixg ubc phill louis writes jack morris starts have been like his playoff starts has era his starts what does luck have with era was lucky get wins last year but had era with team that scored lot runs would happy could still pitch with era but seems suffering from total callapse bad pitchers are more prone this total collapse than good pitchers they are closer the chasm mediocrity the smallest push and they completely lose their grip but good ones can collapse somewhat then come back the next year burleigh grimes went from wins and era and era around pitched well for several more years carlton won and lost the year after his record source bill james historical baseball abstract and let not forget john tudor who started and finished had pretty bad era when you take busch stadium into account the start the season gave early runs his games and would get stronger the game went thus giving few runs the last going stays the game and gets the win how else would have pitched many innings yup used dig himself hole then get together and stick until the run support eventually came through this year just hasn gotten together recall had era the half and era the half last year hmmm runs innings suppose starts more games and winds innings pitched allows runs game the next innings have era the end the year think have his totals right this going hard come back from jack may finished time retire released does not return his form from last year his million contract awful lot eat hunch that morris very gutsy and that may pitching through injury and not telling anyone guess that will banished the bullpen the remainder the season after few more starts perhaps when stewart comes off the will danny cox who went scoreless innings against the tribe today start for morris looks like really good one gaston scrambling find starters imagine luckily the jays have very good offense don think they would dare release him before the end the year just replaced stewart cox doug fowler dxf cwru edu age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder after casey relatives have give lots hugs love missed the strike the poem support cause heaven just great ran first and made big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	reds snap game losing streak redreport kevin mitchell sacrifice fly the eighth off brett saberhagen plated pitch runner cesar hernandez give the reds come from behind victory over new york hernandez ran for pinch hitter cecil espy who got the inning started with solid single right moved second bob kelly infield sneaker down the third base line and third jeff branson well placed bunt rare show excellent execution the recently hapless reds offense cincinnati trailed after starter tim pugh blinked the fifth had only given one hit the first four innings fourth inning lead off double vince coleman coleman was left stranded third bobby bonilla after joe orselak popped short orselak was pinch hitting for eddie murray who argued plate umpire kellogg inside strike drawing the line really should know better than that murray and later manager jeff torborg ended getting tossed the mets fifth started with howard johnson first pitch homer pugh must have been slightly shaken was popped the next pitch jeff kent single then ryan thompson liner left was surprise misplayed mitchell and turned into rbi triple catcher hundley grounder the drawn branson failed bring thompson then the play the game occured saberhagen was due reds pitching coach larry rothschild met with the infield discuss the possibility suicide squeeze they called perfectly thompson was hung out dry after pugh first pitch pitch out and the threat ended isn the national league great the reds picked runs the seventh knot the game after barry larkin ground out mitchell chris sabo and randy milligan got back back back singles the third scoring mitchell reggie sanders then plated sabo with long fly center double oliver might have scored runner dan wilson but third base coach dave bristol threw the stop sign too late wilson himself was hung out dry killing the reds rally rob dibble came the ninth and pitched shakily with two outs and runner second bonilla came the plate and all could think was the sunday game late august last year when bonilla three run dinger slapped loss dibble and spelled the beginning the end for cinci season bonilla ended walking and hojo flied out left give the reds their first win week and earned dibble his third save many opportunities the win went steve foster who got what must ego boosting two perfect innings work striking out three saberhagen got the loss though bit surprised even pitched the eighth take though the reds are now still the worst team baseball with the royals victory today the mets are the line new york mets coleman fernandez murray orselak bonilla johnson kent thompson hundley saberhagen totals johnson off pugh leading off fifth pitch thompson off pugh fifth out rbi picked off coleman off pugh fourth out stranded third rbi johnson thompson cincinnati reds kelly branson larkin mitchell dibble sabo milligan wilson sanders oliver pugh roberts foster espy hernandez totals oliver was stranded the seventh after his double when wilson was run down oliver off saberhagen out runner first stranded rbi milligan sanders and mitchell sac branson sanders and mitchell ibb larkin gdp larkin new york cincinnati pitching new york saberhagen cincinnati pugh foster dibble wilson ejected murray torborg umps kellogg relliford runge demuth attendance coming the reds travel pittsburgh for three then continue into chicago for three next game tuesday expected pitch are belcher tomlin rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	dimensional teams was royals final run total previous article sweda css itd umich edu sean sweda says been saying this for quite some time but being absent from the net for while figured stick neck out bit the royals will set the record for fewest runs scored team since the inception the rule any ideas what this they will fall easily short runs that for damn sure can believe these media fools picking them win the division like our tom gage the detroit news claiming herk robinson some kind genius for the trades aquisitions made would you say the same thing about the dodgers true cone probably good drysdale and they have koufax but still these teams were winning with home run leaders who had very bad totals with lots low scoring games etc and they didn use relievers whereas jeff montgomery having super season for them that being said still picked them but think superb pitching team can win they have enough hitting there more chance that think than team with tremendous hitting but pitching least wonder though which one you people think would better team with johnson koufax his prime seaver carlton and young real order the starters with sutter fingers and lyle the bullpen but with puny offense assuming good defense like mazeroski maranville etc team with poor pitching but with offense cobb carew ruth gehrig mays schmidt wagner and bench again you pick the order would postulate that the pitching one would several games better seasons end even the best hitters can succeed only the time their best years but great pitcher can throw lots shutouts taking all the players their prime they might throw shutouts year and all the offense would have get run across wonder someone with stratomatic something could plug such all time teams into regular season have played and report the results would love see that doug fowler dxf cwru edu age now mommys and daddys other ever wonder after casey relatives have give lots hugs love missed the strike the poem support cause heaven just great ran first and made big hug that lasts forever and ever
rec.sport.baseball	early bbddd returns article apr news brandeis edu pip brandeis edu adam levin writes just curious anyone has started standout early the season the ddd this year concerned fan the ddd hoping produce the first update the ddd this week please send info about the most significant longest most critical etc home run that you have seen yet this season vince
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why article kingoz camelot kingoz camelot bradley edu orin roth writes well officially the braves least until they started winning was are they still officially why and how did they receive this label unoffically but without doubt america team the cubs why orin bradley really jester disguise sorry but saw survey somewhere that showed that america favorite team the damn yankees much for the underdogs being loved obbaseball trivia cardinals have taken out series from the yanks but have losing record against them spring training games not counted shannon
rec.sport.baseball	montreal question what position does mike lansing play cannot seem find anywhere thanks keith mullins ooo ooo internet plymouth takes big man cry but mullin plymouth edu
rec.sport.baseball	detroit tigers the roar michigan and trumbull should loader than ever this year with mike illitch the head and ernie harwell back the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs two games and with fielder tettleton and deer think they can win the division pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make decent staff that will keep the team into many games then there henneman close out watch out boston toronto and baltimore the motor city kittys are back
rec.sport.baseball	three homer games and padres notes all those out there wondering about who holds the record for three homer games ina career the answer johnny mize his career with the cards and the yanks hit three times almost sure about this case anyone wondering the record for two homer games held babe ruth and mize record may not last for much longer because juan gonzalez has least three games with three and maybe know that had least two last year and one rookie don have any record books college for check though please let know okay wrong onto the padres there anyone out there who follows them especial those with access local news don here anything los angeles and can get mcpaper consistently around here comment looks though san diego has gotten the better the two deals that brought bell and plantier the padres has also forced the team use darrell shermann course plantier could get injured again could hit with the power but with lower average bell always could finish with and hrs essentially jerald clark numbers leadoff comment craig shipley get base the time lucky leadoff hell the usual starters use gwynn got steals already shipley starting because injury stillwell though haven seen stillwell name any box scores anyway unless you are going use shermann leadoff then use gwynn lesat gets base and this year stealing bases sheffield comment though the season early and stats mean nothing witness phillips batting currently but does sheffield have injury anythingelse wrong with him just don hear anything andy benes pitching like did the second half this flash promise that throws out evrey now and then has anyone seen him pitch the two good games score for today sunday april padres louis padres sweep the cardinals gwynn goes for with homer sheffield and tueful also homer winning cause thanks for listening reading any comments kelly keach kkeach pomona claremont edu
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why article gui utoronto steinman utoronto david steinman writes cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition the underdog team that has talent and comes out nowhere contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but virtually impossible win division with talent over games well with players certainly however quite possible win all with managerial talent blue jays david david shapiro people can call monkey but felt like shapiro david yale edu had piano back all winter long shapiro minerva cis yale edu the piano off back maybe trombone will next stan belinda
rec.sport.baseball	request for stats anyone have the individual stats where can find them
rec.sport.baseball	montreal question article apr plymouth edu mullin plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play cannot seem find anywhere thanks currently all over played when deshields was out was shifted third when delino came back and today played for cold wil cordero his natural positions seem the middle infield but they will seemingly find spot for himm somewhere long his bat hot tierney
rec.sport.baseball	detroit tigers david vergolini writes the roar michigan and trumbull should loader than ever this year with mike illitch the head and ernie harwell back the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs two games and with fielder tettleton and deer think they can win the division pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make decent staff that will keep the team into many games yeah the tigers can keep scoring runs game reading all this woofing correctly one midseason slump going pull this team out contention like yogi says believe when believe david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	detroit tigers article msuinfo msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the roar michigan and trumbull should loader than ever this year with mike illitch the head and ernie harwell back the booth the tiger bats will bang this summer already they have scored runs two games and with fielder tettleton and deer think they can win the division pitching bull gully moore wells and krueger make decent staff that will keep the team into many games then there henneman close out watch out boston toronto and baltimore the motor city kittys are back nice woofing should say meowing and yes the tiggers are fun exciting team that would pay see but last year they went this year their offense essentially the same and their pitching best essentially the same why you think they will suddenly improve win the games which will required win the east what has changed that don see remember win worth much the standings win charles
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article apr mnemosyne edu gspira nyx edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink howard wong writes has jack lost bit his edge what the worst start jack morris has had jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year the last again goes prove that better good than lucky you can count good tomorrow lucky seems prone bad starts and bad finish last year yes enjoying every last run gives who was who said morris was better signing than viola cheers valentine hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall fame his future therefore would have say toronto easily made the best signing and don tell boston will win this year they won even the top the division more like shawn
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why article news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition the underdog team that has talent and comes out nowhere contend the mets and orioles are prime examples don think you can call team with tom seaver jerry koosman and nolan ryan the pitching staff team that has talent they did come out nowhere but some the improvement was forseeable greg
rec.sport.baseball	and america team but why qsk dck usenet ins cwru edu jdl cwru edu justin lowe writes previous article steinman utoronto david steinman says cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes the defenition the underdog team that has talent and comes out nowhere contend the mets and orioles are prime examples not the cubs sorry but virtually impossible win division with talent over games would amend your definition underdog team expected lose but which wins thanks underestimated talent dave the mets and are good examples but what about the reds you really think that anyone expected them sweep the know people who didn even think they win game let alone win the series these people were very silly any team that gets the world series can win the world series and anybody who ever expects sweep crazy you put the best team baseball the series against the worst team baseball the worst team would win least game most the time and very well could win the series though the odds would certainly against them greg
rec.sport.baseball	zane rescue from simmons far simmons looks like total idiot zane smith should learn how switchpitch and return from the would rather have zane smith pitch right handed than have moeller pitch all sure simmons was ready say told you after otto had impressive win last week now otto latest debacle has restored simmon reputation now looks like back his form when had the highest era among starters four our sake not ted sake hope pitches with era for the rest the season yeah right tomlin and merced are bit disappointing they are still doing decently but considering the considerable amount talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons they seem have actually gotten little bit worse tomlin was almost unhittable his rookie year against lefty batters merced had very good oba his rookie year showed lot concentration the plate his rookie year walk well seems the losing end tonight but still think that walk desrved his contract leyland should accept part the blame for the lavalliere situation can understand his and management fear losing tom prince through waivers even they what the use aright hander like slaught not very smart platoon also blaming leyland this case since hcurrently convinced that lavalliere through while giving him way too much time last year the regular season and the playoffs slaught should have played all games has good average against right handed pitching didn leyland and simmons forsee this last year and attempt trade lavalliere last year itself any fool could tell them lavalliere wasn very fit last year dennis moeller scary candeleria well not going have such high era the end the season maybe will range but million plus come other than the customary home run giving stage patterson goes through for few weeks patterson has served the pirates very well each year far seems have pitched well for the rangers think the pirates should have spent the money patterson stead the rookie batters well young has surprised bit with his instant impact other than that their excellent performance hasn been too much surprise think should thank doughty for that rookie pitchers worse than expected especially cooke slaught how come wasn given contract extension last year now his value has increased immensely lonnie smith well eric davis was signed for comparable amount let see eric can hit better can run better can field better now why didnt the pirates after eric davis injured davis better than healthy lonnie smith even lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year won asset has looked terrible the bases and the field management big big zero sauer has yet make forceful agreement favor revenue sharing seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth preparing the team for move tampa bay alex cole fiasco the pirates infield and positions look good the and would have looked good could have gotten cole replace two the four outfielders eric davis van slyke and cole would have made very respectable outfield even without eric davis thye pirates would have respectable outfield with cole svan slyke and merced think should hit left handed against lefts stead switch hitting simmons did have options for the outfield ironically the biggest accomplishment simmon tenure was getting alex cole really cheap too bad compensatory draft picks for bonds forget the pirates can rant and rave they will not get those picks now the issue still being appealed now this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots nothing else will final note tim wakefield won awful was his last starts but don count him pitching like last year for the rest the season also the pirates are contention towards rthe end the season they will miss redus clutch hitting and his speed has peaked the second half the last seasons pravin ratnam
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu brian landmann writes later the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs puts lankford hitter with power pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with power pinch hitter what the helll thinking memory serves well alicea hit and damn near tied the game torre obviously knows his players better than you see all the ballyard braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall fame his future therefore would have say toronto easily made the best signing and don tell boston will win this year they won even the top the division more like yeah valentine how many rings does clemens have nothin like good old fashioned canadian logic btw the only good thing can say about the jay rotation this year that could have been worse stewart might have stayed healthy cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.baseball	militello update hey all you yankee fans who been knocking prediction baltimore you flooded mailbox with cries militello good militello good where noticed got skipped over after that strong first outing not any chance columbus now please don tell you relying this guy the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter this brittle pitching staff for the still early see all the ballyard braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	the mets are rapists todd karlin writes not read klapisch news columns regularly but know that has been accused before being instigator that enjoys hopefully for only professional reasons drumb news story even there isn one there now far the confrontation with bobby bonilla few days ago almost totally blame bonilla matter what member the press does and matter how much putrid individual might that does not give ballplayer the right threaten journalist bonilla wasn threatening anyone just wanted give him the dollar tour david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article apr mnemosyne edu gspira nyx edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink howard wong writes has jack lost bit his edge what the worst start jack morris has had jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year the last again goes prove that better good than lucky you can count good tomorrow lucky seems prone bad starts and bad finish last year yes enjoying every last run gives who was who said morris was better signing than viola hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings their fingers oooooo cheap shot damn morris now has three and probably the hall fame his future who cares had two them before came toronto and the jays had signed viola instead morris would have been frank who won and got the ring and would his way this year too therefore would have say toronto easily made the best signing your logic curious and spurious there reason believe that viola wouldn have won many games had signed with toronto when you compare their stupid records sure compare their team offensive averages too now looking anything like the morris viola sweepstakes year later basically hindsight but there were plenty reasons why should have been apparent that viola was the better pitcher based previous recent years and also based age frank almost years younger how many knew that people got caught the world series and then morris wins last year wins are the stupidest most misleading statistic baseball far worse than rbi that won just means that the jays got him lot runs the only really valid retort valentine weren the red sox trying get morris too sure they said viola was their first choice afterwards but what should have expected they would say and don tell boston will win this year they won even the top the division more like this true won for lack contribution viola who cares charles
rec.sport.baseball	montreal question article apr plymouth edu mullin plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play cannot seem find anywhere thanks keith mullins ooo ooo internet plymouth takes big man cry but mullin plymouth edu played and also heard can play short too shawn
rec.sport.baseball	zane rescue from simmons last message wrote management big big zero sauer has yet make forceful agreement favor revenue sharing meant argument instead agreement also think should add coouple ted positive achievements smiley trade was good for the pirates but think ted could have gotten someone better than neagle cummings seems pretty good the cole trade was excellent but simmons has botched now this year draft seems have gone well for the pirates but then they lost high picks the bonds fiasco well should give trying prove that simmons not total idiot
rec.sport.baseball	twins games does anyone know the twins games are broadcast good ole ames iowa thanks all
rec.sport.baseball	bob knepper was damn right don you guys think mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking getting into baseball they cause many problems just look lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like little girl just don think women belong man sport before you smart guys flame for this know the given example was about football who cares still applies other male sports how can have women umpires jeez look pam postema just because she woman everybody the face the earth thinks great that she getting opportunity ump you even watched the games and had greater than that roast beef you see that she not nearly good most aaa umpires besides she probably more worried about cracking fingernail with foul tip off wade boggs bat jose oquendo bat either way there are too many complications austin jacobs bob knepper fan club member
rec.sport.baseball	attention anyone syracuse richmond there are two conflicting reports about pitcher that either the jays farm system the braves his name bill taylor was picked the jays but had offered back the braves before they were able send him the syracuse chiefs one report says that the braves took him back and assigned him richmond the other says that the chiefs roster which one right
rec.sport.baseball	what with all these scores sean garrison writes alright have one thing say don know just but thought this newsgroup place for discussion why must people constantly post these little messages about how certain team winning certain inning mean come how many people are dependent this newsgroup that they have find out the scores mid game here cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes amen hear brother take look the timestamps some the posts you read sometime the propagation delays are significant often hours even days and even people who have access machines which are close the poster the network let try weeks april today and just finished reading posts regarding the cleveland indians boating tragedy needless say don want read partial linescores games played weeks ago charles mentioned excluded the quote join mailing list you want woof consider entering inning scores woofing thank you now plug and read the rest the posts about spring training jim savoy university lethbridge savoy uleth sigless and bible black
rec.sport.baseball	bob knepper was damn right article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don you guys think mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking getting into baseball they cause many problems just look lisa olson remember that feisty reporter that entered the new england patriots locker room she started crying like little girl just don think women belong man sport before you smart guys flame for this know the given example was about football who cares still applies other male sports how can have women umpires jeez look pam postema just because she woman everybody the face the earth thinks great that she getting opportunity ump you even watched the games and had greater than that roast beef you see that she not nearly good most aaa umpires besides she probably more worried about cracking fingernail with foul tip off wade boggs bat jose oquendo bat either way there are too many complications austin jacobs bob knepper fan club member someone tell there hidden here somewhere david rex wood davewood colorado edu university colorado boulder
rec.sport.baseball	zane rescue from simmons article sfovx mium andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam andrew cmu edu writes far simmons looks like total idiot leyland should accept part the blame for the lavalliere situation can understand his and management fear losing tom prince through waivers even they what the use aright hander like slaught not very smart platoon also blaming leyland this case since hcurrently convinced that lavalliere through while giving him way too much time last year the regular season and the playoffs slaught should have played all games has good average against right handed pitching didn leyland and simmons forsee this last year and attempt trade lavalliere last year itself any fool could tell them lavalliere wasn very fit last year sorry but this the biggest load bunk seen while the pirates have been trying trade lavalliere for some time now nobody was even vaguely interested several other teams had made known that they would grab prince who was out options lavalliere release had nothing with him being through was released because the event injury slaught lavalliere longer capable they believe being the everyday catcher since slaught good against righties against lefties the offense should actually improve with this move toby
rec.sport.baseball	militello update article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes hey all you yankee fans who been knocking prediction baltimore you flooded mailbox with cries militello good militello good where noticed got skipped over after that strong first outing about good mussina better than sutcliffe and mcdonald not any chance columbus now the bullpen steinbrenner charge after all please don tell you relying this guy the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter this brittle pitching staff got the talent the starter now and evetually the ace was higher ranked and generally better prospect than arthur rhodes who happens well hey the oriole starter for the still early for militello still early toby elliott
rec.sport.baseball	sam are you there millitello listen sammy can you explain why buck pitched you relief yesterday figure one would know this better than you yourself jason miller some doctor guy tell bam bam should made good his thread retire
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla article apr organpipe uug arizona edu krueger helium gas uug arizona edu theodore krueger wrote isn funny that white person calls comeone nigger and gets banned for year but black person calls someone faggot and there consequence ted ted you missing vital point roger lustig pointed out previous response the reason why schott was banned from baseball was because she had been known call and think racially biased manner constant basis such thoughts affected her hiring practices bonilla the other hand was found have mentioned this one word single time had been known around criticizing homosexuals would different story furthermore merely athlete doesn have hire anyone schott had dave pallone the former umpire who admitted homosexual has decided assist protest before mets game shea like you thinks that bonilla should suspended from baseball pallone hoping for year suspension opinion that downright ludicrous howie rose wfan said you start suspending athletes who have mentioned derogatory word even single time under whatever conditions then you probably have enough people remaining play three three game now honestly you truly analyze the differences between the two cases that you bring your article would think that you reconsider your thoughts sean behind the bag vin scully
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article apr mnemosyne edu gspira nyx edu greg spira writes howard wong mindlink howard wong writes has jack lost bit his edge what the worst start jack morris has had jack lost his edge about years ago and has had only one above average year the last again goes prove that better good than lucky you can count good tomorrow lucky seems prone bad starts and bad finish last year yes enjoying every last run gives who was who said morris was better signing than viola cheers valentine hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings their fingers damn morris now has three and probably the hall fame his future therefore would have say toronto easily made the best signing and don tell boston will win this year they won even the top the division more like shawn gee never knew valentine made comment about how viola signing with boston was gonna bring world series title boston don think valentine ever said boston will win this year boy talk about sensitive insecure toronto fans any case think viola would have made better signing why viola younger and left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have mike mike columbia edu
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr asd com scott asd com scott barman says wasn ron bloomberg the former yankee who got the first base hit designated hitter jewish have idea nor care however like point out that blomberg got the first plate appearance designated hitter and the first walk designated hitter not sure but not think that also got the first hit designated hitter bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article world std com eastgate world std com mark bernstein says which reminds they still serve kosher hot dogs the new comiskey yup with onions all things bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	juggling dodgers article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer says lasorda juggled his lineup against the pirates friday night and from the results one might conclude that will stick with the changes for while butler reclaimed leadoff spot probably for the whole season davis wants get his speed into play for last night piazza the kid doing everything well very well strawberry the primadonna insists batting cleanup how you know this did lasorda say before the game here the lineup using batting strawman fourth because the primadonna insists batting cleanup this true note that don think lasorda should fired for least two reasons publicly humiliating his players knuckling under his players wishes however think that the more likely explanation that lasorda wanted strawberry bat fourth and that you hate strawberry bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	let talk phillies article apr mgweed mgwhiz att com prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul says try edit this newsgroup and feed one the local elementary schools they have group students that just love baseball and are learning use computers but telling you gotten the point that don even edit the files anymore just read them and throw out the trash and thanks all you people that think wonderful include swear word two your signature files that really nice have read the whole article and then toss out because the sig duh why not just chop out the sig bob vesterman hey kids take all those pictures dead presidents out your parents wallets and mail them bob vesterman dept mathematics university notre dame notre dame indiana
rec.sport.baseball	mlb nba article apr news yale edu sean garrison says think that players salaries are getting way out hand the point that they pace become severely detrimental baseball future you want decrease players salaries you want increase owners salaries the two are equivalent bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	usa mcweekly stats article franjion spot colorado edu franjion spot colorado edu john franjione says also have the impression from reading this group and bill james that elias bunch money grubbing jerks whose mission charge much they can for baseball statistical info and bill james not yeah sure you own the bill james players rating book bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	bosox win again the team record article apr ncar ucar edu amj rsf atd ucar edu anthony michael jivoin says with the hawk the red sox definitely have chance for the east this year brings class work ethic and leadership the park each day too bad doesn bring the ability hit pitch field run bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	let talk phillies the phillies salvaged their weekend series against the chicago cubs beating them wild one wrigley field sunday afternoon was the phils only win the three game series and was the first time the phillies have lost series the young season the phils jumped lead the game thanks john kruk run homers and two wes chamberlain homers however danny jackson and the phillies middle relief was unable hold the lead mitch williams entered the game with the phillies leading however candy maldonado hit ninth inning homerun tie the dave hollins hit three run shot his first the year push the phils ahead stay however shaky bottom the the cubs scored runs and had the tying runner base when the cubs pinch hit randy myers for bob scanlan they were out position players and myers bunted into double play end the game the phils bring their league leading record back action tuesday wednesday and thursday against the padres
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris michael chen mike cunixf columbia edu wrote any case think viola would have made better signing why viola younger and left handed how many left handed starters does toronto have well agree that viola better signing however why does everyone say that you want lefthanded starters understand lefthanded spot relievers even though they usually face more righthanded batters than lefthanded batters just don understand why people insist lefthanded starters unless there park effect yankee stadium most batters mlb are righthanded righthanded starters will have the platoon advantage more often than lefthanded starters guess one argument for lefty starters that certain teams may more vulnerable lhp than rhp however this probably only factor the postseason because teams seldom juggle their starters for this reason during the regular season think you just want the best starters you can get regardless whether they are lefties righties lefthanded starters tend have higher era than righthanded starters precisely because managers out their way start inferior lefties perhaps because the platoon advantage missing something here craig
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings their fingers yah damn morris now has three and probably the hall fame his future certainly didn earn his last one how many games did blow the world series all the ones started therefore would have say toronto easily made the best signing yes definitely therefore morris better than clemens don give that shit boston had alomar olerud henke and ward while toronto had rivera jack clark jeff reardon things would have looked little different last fall give credit where credit due this lavishing praise morris makes sick and don tell boston will win this year they won even the top the division more like willing bet they don finish sixth also willing bet they don finish first and you give odds willing bet that they finish ahead the blue jays valentine
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris article ooinn senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes the only really valid retort valentine weren the red sox trying get morris too sure they said viola was their first choice afterwards but what should have expected they would say lou wanted morris all along the idiot giving the man million play with like giving five year old loaded uzi with the safety off the only question how many shots will get off before somebody wise enough take away and don tell boston will win this year they won even the top the division more like this true won for lack contribution viola who cares don see why people expect boston finish sixth the bottom four teams last year were essentially tied boston seventh place had wins the yankees and indians tied for fourth place had wins now should think obvious that the red sox improved more than the indians tigers basically the red sox are stronger this year and they have healthier starting pitchers far least and better relievers see reason why they shouldn win games meanwhile the indians are shambles and the tigers still have pitching they will win some blowouts but they will lose awful lot games too maybe the sox will play poorly win games and finish fifth but think third fourth place more likely cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	militello update article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes hey all you yankee fans who been knocking prediction baltimore how many games have the orioles won you flooded mailbox with cries militello good militello good will where noticed got skipped over after that strong first outing not any chance columbus now please don tell you relying this guy the fourth not the fifth but the fourth starter this brittle pitching staff currently there room for him the rotation key having most impressive april abbott pitching well perez back wickman has pitched his way into the rotation and holding his spot with outstanding performance his last time out and kamieniecki isn doing too poorly himself the yankees find themselves need starter militello will get another chance until then have wait line valentine
rec.sport.baseball	bob knepper was damn right why did get sucked into this article apr news yale edu austin jacobs writes don you guys think mean mon what the heck are women doing even thinking getting into baseball they cause many problems just assuming you serious guess you surprised hear that guys don think would guess that tiny fraction the folks reading your post agree with kind doubt that even you agree with not going through your points one time because after all not many them have anything all with baseball only replying this because you brought pam postema the aaa umpire who sued suing baseball the grounds sex discrimination because she wasn promoted the majors jeez look pam postema just because she woman everybody the face the earth thinks great that she getting opportunity ump you even watched the games and had greater than that roast beef you see that she not nearly good most aaa umpires never seen her ump game have first hand experience with her ability umpire but have seen her talk shows and her point seems that she can call balls and strikes well any the umpires and she knows the rulebook better than most seems that she missing the point and that how she sees the role umpires the game well wouldn promote her either the umpires primary role has nothing with calling baserunners safe out hell joe lundy could that their primary function maintain order the game keep the game moving and keep the players from trying kill each other umpires have extremely tough people that disqualifies most both men and women and postema thinks that she deserves major league umpire because her command the rulebook then think that disqualifies her well umpires need command the game command the rulebook secondary dave eisen succeed the world not dkeisen leland stanford edu enough stupid you must also sequoia peripherals well mannered voltaire home
rec.sport.baseball	montreal question article apr plymouth edu mullin plymouth edu mully writes what position does mike lansing play cannot seem find anywhere thanks shortstop training but been second mostly and third this year for the expos dave demers demers ucsd edu computer science engineering demers ucsd bitnet san diego ucsd demers jolla fax
rec.sport.baseball	let talk phillies article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu writes article apr mgweed mgwhiz att com prg mgweed mgwhiz att com phil gunsul says hey kids take all those pictures dead presidents out your parents wallets and mail them bob vesterman and send him shift key too dave demers demers ucsd edu computer science engineering demers ucsd bitnet san diego ucsd demers jolla fax
rec.sport.baseball	zane rescue from simmons mamatha devineni ratnam andrew cmu edu writes far simmons looks like total idiot whatever you say think just games into the season myself going wait bit before calling names sure simmons was ready say told you after otto had impressive win last week now otto latest debacle has restored simmons reputation now looks like back his form when had the highest era among starters four our sake not ted sake hope pitches with era for the rest the season yeah right expect that dave otto will really bad pitcher and have idea why simmons ever wanted him the other hand expect him release otto doesn turn things around pretty fast btw otto game score for that stinker was only which points out problem with the method since otto performance was infinitely bad and excruciatingly prolonged tomlin and merced are bit disappointing they are still doing decently but considering the considerable amount talent and maturity they have shown their first seasons they seem have actually gotten little bit worse think merced rookie year was bit flukey but aren you willing give him some more bats and tomlin few more starts before acting gloomy walk well seems the losing end tonight but still think that walk desrved his contract didn walk time bomb has stuff whatsoever and when the league finally realizes this won pretty all the rookie batters well young has surprised bit with his instant impact other than that their excellent performance hasn been too much surprise think should thank doughty for that don fast doughty the guy who signed steve buechele which was move that threatened bury kevin young the minors meanwhile not sure whether doughty simmons signed martin six year free agent before the season rookie pitchers worse than expected especially cooke twice through the rotation and you given yikes slaught how come wasn given contract extension last year now his value has increased immensely but has his age least baseball terms the useful half life year old injury prone catcher can much longer than year lonnie smith well eric davis was signed for comparable amount but wanted dodger and felt had something prove after his disastrous don think there was any chance for the bucs sign him let see eric can hit better can run better can field better now why didnt the pirates after eric davis injured davis better than healthy lonnie smith certainly wasn last year even lonnnie smith gets some big hits this year won asset has looked terrible the bases and the field hey that the skates smith package deal anybody who acquires lonnie for his defense base running particularly this stage real weirdo management big big zero sauer has yet make forceful argument favor revenue sharing seems more concerned about pleasing that idiot danforth preparing the team for move tampa bay that the goal the team ownership than don see why sauer gets zero for making his boss happy don know what has hasn said about revenue sharing can comment there alex cole fiasco stuff deleted ironically the biggest accomplishment simmons tenure was getting alex cole really cheap too bad that gave him away the expansion draft annoying but since leyland seems have been pushing for them retain jeff king was probably unavoidable meanwhile think bigger accomplishments simmons tenure were getting some value for john smiley not trading real prospects for veterans down the stretch last year drafting well letting the rookies show something foley smith and candelaria were acquired replacement parts which means that even fail hasn done serious damage the bucs future compensatory draft picks for bonds forget the pirates can rant and rave they will not get those picks now the issue still being appealed does this mean that the bucs lost the initial arbitration case never heard the outcome this when will the final verdict this now this doesnt convince anyone that simmons and sauer are idiots nothing else will not sure who was the idiot this case don know who blame might have been doug danforth after all fact seriously suspect was doug danforth who has shown his willingness call the shots exactly those moments when the gun pointed his feet btw wondered whether latest posts have been getting off site somebody known impersonate cummings can see this would drop short note jking
rec.sport.baseball	dodger question the dodgers have been shopping harris other teams their quest for more left handed pitching far takers personally think harris defensive liability and has also led the team past years for hitting into double plays least been among the leaders sharperson showed last year that given chance play every day can get the job done sharpy played just one base every day say third also improve defensively wallach has helped tremendously defense has reed the improved defense quite noticeable and having effect the pitching staff both astacio and martinez were bailed out recent starts great defensive plays martinez pitched into the ninth game that might have seen him lifted the third past years astacio lasted innings the other day under similar circumstances the dodgers are turning double plays and keeping more balls the infield than last year and piazza has also been great defense has thrown out batters trying steal and has least one pick off first wallach clearly has contributed the over all improvement defense but his offense awful and has cost the dodgers some runs but don think bad his current average suspect will come out this slump much davis and straw seem have come out theirs dodger
rec.sport.baseball	let known article issbtl byuvm bitnet issbtl byuvm bitnet writes would like make everyone aware that winning the west the atlanta braves did not lead wire wire through games the houston astros are percentage points ahead the unbeatable braves and they deserve for other reason than salvaging little the honor the west the supposed strongest division baseball lost the east yesterday with only the astros prevailing will stretch farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax com paul andresen hewlett packard home mckinley corvallis sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	expanded strike zone was surfeit offense article news duke edu fierkelab bchm biochem duke edu eric roush writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes won really able say anything for least another couple weeks but far looks like homerific season might the umps squeezing the strike zone watching the braves tbs would have said that the strike zone the has expanded this season specifically appears that the strike zone has moved above the belt yeah the announcers have commented that also but was also perception however the strike zone hasn climbed all the way the letters more like little ways under the letters any other perceptions out there judging the way the reds pitchers have performed thus far appears that the zone has been squeezed the size grape douglas ritter dougr meaddata com life short ride hard uunet meaddata dougr
rec.sport.baseball	found the secret article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes why are the red sox first place eight games into the season they already have two wins each from clemens and viola clemens starts again tonight three days rest huh clemens pitched last saturday giving him his usual four days rest what are the sox going with four man rotation this why hesketh was used relief last night brian curran mead data central brian meaddata com didn think should been asked catch when the temperature was below age carlton fisk chicago white sox catcher playing during degree april ball game
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article apr sarah albany edu albnyvms bitnet writes article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes spike owen sure hitting like crazy but the guy cannot field save his life and they said was brought provide defense velarde stankiewicz and even silvestri are better defensively than owen remember still early look for his offense tail off and his defense improve hopefully has that rep because heard that either last year over the last years something like that has the third highest fielding percentage among major league shortstops behind and tony not gonna help this sorry mets team all fernandez agree though that has not looked all that impressive the field thus far owen only has one error far believe that seriously underrepresents the harm has done the field owen will cleanly play any ball reaches will have fine fielding percentage like always the problem that doesn reach anything that isn hit straight him this wouldn quite obvious problem were playing next kelly gruber robin ventura but the third baseman for the yankees wade boggs who should have moved across the diamond last year only seen one game abbott first start but there were three balls hit the left side which would have been stopped quality defensive players instead they were charged hits against abbott cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes second starter seems that when quality pitchers take the mound the other teams score less runs the team that scores the most runs wins this puts the team with the better pitching the advantage providing they can stop the opposing team from scoring runs low scoring game would clearly benefit the braves not clear all certainly rather have team who was winning games than games the game luck going play much bigger role than the game sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	expanded strike zone was surfeit offense jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes was impression watching the mets rockies that umpires were calling strikes above the belt too but not far the letters would nice this were the case the umps saw the weekend boxscores too they knew the pitchers needed some help they would watching the sunrise mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	billy taylor brave jay does anyone know where billy taylor richmond syracuse was taken the jays the rule draft but not kept the roster baseball weekly said that was demoted syracuse but toronto paper indicated that the braves took him back there atlanta fan anyone reading this who knows thanks psl
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages third base compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players the reports stats are courtesy sherri nichols players are listed descending order third basemen name mitchell kevin gonzales rene leius scott pendleton terry ventura robin wallach tim gruber kelly pagliarulo mike harris lance howell jack williams matt caminiti ken sabo chris gaetti gary buechele steve salazar luis pecota bill schmidt mike riles ernie boggs wade martinez egdar molitor paul phillips tony average brookens tom king jeff seitzer kevin average jacoby brook hansen dave law vance magadan dave jefferies greg sharperson mike zeile todd baerga carlos hayes chris livingstone scott hamilton kelly pat lyons steve oberkfell ken johnson howard bell buddy lansford carney presley jim schu rick worthington cal hollins dave sheffield gary blauser jeff fryman travis gantner jim gomez lee palmer dean dale stephenson steph uiuc edu grad student large considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	the all time greats team article apr iscsvax uni edu reed iscsvax uni edu writes dave winfield name does not the same sentence aaron robinson and ott terms peak and repeat peak years winfield has done all has batted the for season drove and more runs many times row before his injury consistently hit near while knocking home runs have you even looked dave winfield slugging percentage for three his best seasons still think that dave was one the better all time but obviously not the best was one the best athletes evr play baseball hit line drives that hit the scoreboard left center field feat one has done the new stadium heck only other people have hit over that green fence since has been remodeled could field had bullet arm and his hitting was comparable many seasons gary sheffields and barry bonds last season older now and slowing down takes more uppercut lift the ball out the park but will always hero and idol there nothing that could make happier than george inviting dave back the bronx play his last year ball with the yankees course will most likely refuse the offer but who knows for million dollars play heck they are giving gallego million this year having dave their while leaving him time play the field when tartabull injured nokes and mass are traded should give the yanks the inspiration and leadership that will sweep new age yankee domination michael lurie
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes some pleasant and then some not pleasant surprises about the edition the bronx bombers far wickman friend made comparison between wickman and jack morris they never have impressive stats but they always find some way win although morris seems losing that ability figured that wickman would the least important part the steve sax trade best trade since got that ruth guy maybe winding good middle reliever but like what seen far doesn pitch pretty but gets the job done actually kind liked the abott trade did trade the rookie the year snow but with don mattingly first for another years why bother
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes farr era the and howe infinite didn think such thing was possible but actually according usa today howe has inning atttributed him but maybe that incorrect the excellent report
rec.sport.baseball	yankee fears tell youm all one thing steve howe and farr are much better then the worst pitcher yankee pitching who you think talking about post the answers you mail use reply post you answers but mailing them meaqns that will post the final results have one particular horrid pitcher mind
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article netnews upenn edu sepinwal mail sas upenn edu alan sepinwall writes thanks alan that was well thought out even written entertaining style
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes baseball fans what you say don you think deserves mean heck dave winfield hum seriously being considered for lee smith then why don give dave kingman chance darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall fame takes them can take eddie murray and jeff reardon yeah dave winfield marginal player guy didn hit lick had negligible power was crap fielder and had staying power dave winfield now entering his believe big league season still damn decent hitter admittedly his defense has slipped great deal but his prime had powerful arm and great range take look the stats don know where you even begin make argument that winfield and kingman are similar players kingman was one dimension power hitter couldn field ran like anvil hit for low average though remember right his obp wasn that hideous and for those who consider such things important was absolute primo dick eddie murray yup only the best baseman the know that mvp votes are conducted mediots but given that got jobbed out the mvp deserved seems that wasn overrated the media lee smith hmmmm this one actually pretty close had solid dependable career closer despite pitching some nasty parks wrigley fenway have take closer look the stats been while but seems lee arthur hof caliber you make legitimate point about the hof credentials relievers simply racking lot saves doesn mean whole hell lot you blow bunch too simply because minnesota and boston and for month atlanta used reardon closer for longer than should have been one the equalizer has racked impressive number saves way should homerman the hof imho darrell evans nice career actually bit underrated kinda like ted simmons imho but not hof well any case sick and tired mostly sick everybody giving hall fame consideration players that are today standards marginal lemme ask you this who the hell playing the game isn marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal let little more selective huh stop handing out these honors liberally save them for the guys who really deserve face something now wait goddamn minute here ozzie smith absolutely redefined the position shortstop his defense was good that won something along the lines gold gloves again gold gloves are mediot biased and good argument could made that larkin deserved one two ozzie more recent awards but usually this tempered someone else the early getting the gold gloves ozzie deserved earlier his career ozzie offense you ask good obp great speed numbers park which for most his career depressed offense admittedly power cept against tom niedenfuer but still definite asset offensively yount hits mvp two different positions huh real stiff his was one the great years ever player recent memory and probably ranks behind only the peak seasons wagner and banks far numbers clear hof imho isn done there will little prestige the hall fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity apparent gee can these guys even compare the more likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan well far garvey goes you right garvey mediot candidate pushed because his winning attitude minor factor one all and his great defense errors admittedly but the range tree stump garvey shouldn the hof skyjack said lot nasty things about skyjack the last year but this mostly response mediots and woofers who talk about morris ability win which nothing more than morris ability pitch when toronto score tons runs this point morris average pitcher although from his early returns may damned close done but all fairness morris was dominant pitcher the for and down tiger teams while was obviously great year for detroit the rest the decade the team was generally contention but not favorites morris career numbers are quite good and worthy hof consideration ryan course but careful guarantee you that someone will throw back your earlier logic about yount and smith being shortstops who hung around long time after all nolan never won damn just pitcher who hung around for years his record mediocre course nolan hof puck probably although got play reasonably well for few more years years even good ones aren enough make the hof most likely that said believe puckett will make the hof pretty much regardless how the rest his career turns out barring something really tragic sudden very popular the media and with fans and legitimately has been one the best the game since joined the league always liked the guy and hope does make and the end think the puck will make but really too early sell this debate comes rather frequently the net and believe not never tire interesting subject here off the top head list potential hof ers from each team probably left couple guys off feel free follow won consider anyone who started playing after about again too early tell note these are all active players not counting recent retirees baltimore cal ripken should lock now even gehrig record stands boston roger clemens might lock already which amazing dawson detroit alan trammell and lou whitaker possibilities milwaukee robin yount discussed earlier new york wade boggs possibly mattingly long shot toronto paul molitor and jack morris possibilities kansas city george brett lock minnesota kirby too early tell winfield lock oakland eckersley lock mcgwire too early rickey lock welch long shot texas the mighty nolan too early consider canseco strange cubs sandberg lock louis ozzie lock lee smith probably new york murray almost lock saberhagen obviously got regain past form and most certainly not vince coleman despite what tell you los angeles butler strawberry and hershiser are all long shots san diego tony gwynn pretty good shot colorado dale murphy good shot ryan bowen just see you awake before get flames this off the top the head list there probably few deserving candidates that left off and didn include barry bonds will clark any atlanta starting pitcher frank thomas canseco mcgriff etc because only considered guys who started playing before mail post almost fear what may have started here bruce hasch hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu sell the team eli hitter good fastball hitter does that mean should throw him bad fastball larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns darryl strawberry moon shots were fun can hit those high and far home runs that actually ran them out rounding second base the time they landed used say that should have file flight plan laguardia for some them then bull durham came out and that was changed homers pulled that didn high they were microwave home runs microwave they got outta there hurry game came off the bench with the flu and the second pitch send rocket down the right field line that didn even allow bob murphy the luxury home run call the story went stayed the clubhouse the with the mets down two and two davey johnson sent for him pinch hit came out the clubhouse saying one swing and home hit the homer ran the bases then went straight for the clubhouse shower and home those were the days scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	baseballisdead article apr midway uchicago edu midway uchicago edu writes question you all why does the media seem embrace the theme the death baseball strongly have seen articles similar vein the chicago tribune and sports editorials maybe because baseball the only business where those who are responsible for the fiscal aspects the game preach gloom and doom these allegedly intelligent people seem predict bad times losing money bankruptcies alarming rate and there going increased degradation the product they produce could you imagine ibm with all their problems promoting themselves the way major league baseball does their stock would plummet unthinkable depths not that they are too far from now what would happen where would they admitted cutting corners and producing inferior product because alleged labor problems think shows lack confidence for the people who run the game anyway just frustrates when the media says such things because inevitably leads owners trying quick fixes like increasing play offs satisfy television trying interleague play drum interest forget word has three divisions with wild card just about done deal has decided soon since negotiations with the networks also have begin soon scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes recently been working project determine the greatest players their respective postions sources are total baseball james historical abstract the ballplayers biography word mouth and own biased opinions feel free comment suggest flame whatever but tried objective possible using statistical data not inlcuded for time convience sake judged rel adj ops total average fielding range runs total player rating total baseball stolen bases for curiosity sake tpr and years played mvp career lou gehrig jimmie foxx eddie murray hank greenberg johnny mize willie mccovey dick allen harmon killebrew kieth hernandez before except after and people named keith bill terry george sisler eddie collins joe morgan jackie robinson rogers hornsby nap lajoie rhyne sandberg learn spell ryne charlie gehringer rod carew bobby grich bobby doerr honus wagner cal ripken john lloyd ozzie smith robin yount joe cronin arky vaughan luke appling ernie banks lou boudreau mike schmidt matthews george brett wade boggs ron santo brooks robinson frank baker darrell evans pie traynor ray dandridge how can brooks think would least ahead ron santo josh gibson darren daulton mvp yogi berra johnny bench mickey cochrane bill dickey gabby hartnett roy campanella gary carter carlton fisk thurman munson ted williams stan musial rickey henderson carl yastrzemski barry bonds tim raines joe jackson ralph kiner willie stargell simmons willie mays cobb tris speaker mickey mantle joe dimaggio oscar charleston andre dawson duke snider kirby puckett dale murphy babe ruth hank aaron frank robinson mel ott kaline reggie jackson dave winfield roberto clemente tony gwynn pete rose walter johnson lefty grove young christy mathewson pete alexander tom seaver roger clemens bob gibson warren spahn satchel paige juan marichal whitey ford bob feller jim palmer steve carlton overall estimated ruth williams mays cobb aaron wagner speaker schmidt johnson mantle musial dimaggio robinson grove henderson gibson young collins foxx mathewson alexander morgan robinson hornsby ott seaver clemens matthews lajoie yastrzemski kaline brett gibson spahn charleston berra ripken lloyd raines sandberg gehringer smith yount bonds paige jackson marichal ford feller boggs again feel free comment mike bsu
rec.sport.baseball	evil smile face cubs beat braves boy hats off any cubs fan who can actually muster the courage put down braves fans mean all the braves have done gone two consecutive world series also being the cubs fan that really have hand all the braves fans out there that are capable driving crazy with that infernal cheer that they have however have protest anyone saying that all cubs fans are stupid the way see either just too stupid acknowledge that observation was just plain wrong you might have confused with bear fans anyway about two weeks ago just about everyone was saying that the cubs would finish last their division even behind florida sheesh these same people were predicting the braves clean their respective division well ten games into the season and these people are little less vocal now wonder why well the way see the east for grabs and whoever wants most going take with the exception florida every team seems have good batting and pitching with philly presently leading the pack but just have point out the cubs take the east they without the benefit competent manager however and pains say the pennant going the west just had get that off chest doc bem benefit compee
rec.sport.baseball	jose canseco swing was going over some videos last night studying and videotapes jose canseco proved very interesting and enlightening here analysis jose canseco circa sep and jose canseco circa june bulked too much period needs lose about pounds not gain more bulk his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively say lost his bat speed and that huge amount speed that open stance killing him note that acts sort like brian downing way open start then closes ball released downing could this without significant head movement canseco can also note that canseco doesn always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they fully closed without good starting point hard make adjustments your swing what would were jose aside from salting away large sum cash that could never touch that never have work again restructure entire swing first minimize movement before the swing close and widen the stance and severely cut down the stride take swing hopefully this will cut down the time need swing and will allow move the bathead more freely second drop pounds cut out the weight work third relax the wrists will cost some power but until can find stroke concentrate keeping the back shoulder rolling the wrists through the strike zone and hit line drives his strength more than enough that some those line drives will get out the park canseco open stance and resulting bad habits are result his back problems out baseball three years not could still hit gary huckabay you think that loud enough hole movie rights well you having trouble hearing sir available thru happy turn for you didn ted frank know that many people your age liked king
rec.sport.baseball	brewer bullpen rocked again for the second straight game california scored ton late runs crush the brewhas was six runs the for win monday and five the and six the for win yesterday jamie navarro pitched seven strong innings but orosco austin manzanillo and lloyd all took part the mockery bullpen yesterday how this for numbers maldanado has pitched three scoreless innings and navarro era the next lowest the staff wegman ouch doesn look much better for the hitters hamilton batting while thon hitting and has seven rbi the next highest three the next best hitter jaha and then vaughn who has the team only another ouch looking the stats not hard see why the team fact doesn sound bad when you averaging three runs game and giving game still early and things will undoubtedly get better the offense should come around but the bullpen major worry fetters plesac and austin gave the brewers great middle relief last year lloyd maldanado manzanillo fetters austin and orosco will have pick the pace for the team successful milwaukee won number games last year when middle relief either held small leads kept small deficits place the starters will okay the defense will alright and the hitting will come around but the bullpen big question mark other news nilsson and doran were reactivated yesterday while william suero was sent down and tim mcintosh was picked montreal today game with california was cancelled salty
rec.sport.baseball	ryan heard minutes ago koa radio denver nolan ryan have arthroscopic knee and miss weeks rockies nied lead mets gooden all runs first inning gregg baseball ncar ucar edu colorado rockies
rec.sport.baseball	when does fred mcgriff the padres become free agent 
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir dave naehring pts mot com wrote article adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes every single piece evidence can find points major league baseball being offense defense run scored just important run prevented this certainly passes the common sense test for but there any statistical evidence say what percent defense pitching and what percent fielding really like know btw sherri thanks for the data find fascinating one the chapters palmer and thorn hidden game titled pitching baseball implying that fielding how they determine that beats been long long time since read one also has separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and neal traven pitt edu you only young once but you can traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	tigers thud see sig kurt bose daisy not rose kbos carina unm edu help cleanse all mindless woofing whenever someone your site posts article with subject the form team simply look him the directory hunt him down and beat him senseless easy fun rewarding
rec.sport.baseball	sparky anderson gets win tigers beat tigers manager sparky anderson gets his career win moments ago the tigers completed two game sweep over the oakland tiger stadium beating the here are the highlights oakland detroit chad krueter scored skeeter barnes from with rbi double the bottom the ninth against none other than dennis eckersley give the tigers the victory barnes also had rbi single score thurmond tie the score the ninth also off eckersley the got their runs rbi single mcgwire the and solo homer reuben sierra the deer doubled home kirk gibson the for the other tiger run john doherty pitched another strong game for the tigers once again lasting through the seventh inning was relieved bolton and then david haas the and haas got the win bobby witt started for the and was replaced honeycutt the followed goose gossage the and finally eckersly the doherty gave both the runs while witt gave the first tiger run and eckerseley gave the last two the post game interview wjr radio detroit sparky anderson said its one the few times gotten emotional his managing career was big moment for him and sure all tiger fans are unanimously very happy for him and what way get number considering the circumstances think might appropriate say woof tigers randy
rec.sport.baseball	jose canseco swing article jkik ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes here analysis jose canseco circa sep and jose canseco circa june bulked too much period needs lose about pounds not gain more bulk been saying that for least years now and even the conditioning guru told jose was carrying too much weight and losing some would help his back although don for one second believe jose used steroids his back problems are very similar problems alot steroid users experience because they are simply carrying too much weight their frame see jeff bregel textbook example and imho jose too big for his frame his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively say lost his bat speed and that huge amount speed can imagine how estimate bat speed but its pretty obvious that jose missing fastballs used hit likely due his back that open stance killing him note that acts sort like brian downing way open start then closes ball released downing could this without significant head movement canseco can also note that canseco doesn always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they fully closed without good starting point hard make adjustments your swing don know had even more open stance when first came with the and had problems with then might that pre back problems was quick enough cover any deficiencies the stance caused but now lost just enough bat speed that the stance hurts him the old saying you hot its trigger mechanism you cold its hitch first minimize movement before the swing close and widen the stance and severely cut down the stride take swing hopefully this will cut down the time need swing and will allow move the bathead more freely the biggest problem imho never has found stance comfortable with for more than few months changes his stance much loses track where the strike zone wednesday night game was clearly mad strike calls both corners that looked pretty good think longer knows where the strike zone really because changed his stance much also bit concerned that because got palmer and gonzalez hitting all the homeruns become competitive swing even harder and screw himself even worse larussa always said that canseco famous batting practice homer shows did him more harm than good they encouraged bad hitting habits russ smith don know anything about but know about some george gervin being assistant coach
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja robert hite philly bach udel edu wrote think most the problems mainly arose from manager gene mauch ineptitude managing the pitching staff down the stretch abused jim bunning chris short and robin roberts think those are the three pitching each only days rest for quite some time the time they hit the last weeks the season obviously none these guys had ounce left their arm well roberts was long gone was probably oriole maybe colt the starter was art mahaffey the previous year ace dennis bennett was the starter they were indeed with but they won their final two games after the horrid loss streak the final game victory bunning win memory serves kept the reds from tying for the title they and the phils were both game behind the cards with the giants another game back the mets couldn hold early lead against the cards that final sunday there would have been way tie too bad they couldn have saved some the runs they scored saturday when they crushed louis neal traven pitt edu you only young once but you can traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	tigers basically agree the tigers are favorite team actually their pitching might actually better this year than last not that htat saying hole lot how bout that home opener tuesday the way sparky goes for win today
rec.sport.baseball	hal mcrae dak vma smsu edu writes hal mcrae the worst manager baseball haven seen enough royals games judge his tactics you may have point here but never seen guy who can waste talent like can one the best raw talent staffs the league and still finding way lose imo the royals don have chance win the pennant even mcrae suddenly began channeling for john mcgraw they have some decent pitchers but when your offense consists bums like gagne and lind and mcreynolds and mcrae and over the hill brett you not going finish unless mcgraw brings christy mathewson back with him say hard evaluate manager when all his hitters suck bob davis rbd thor ece edu
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help thanks bobby
rec.sport.baseball	wfan article knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes article apr virginia edu jja virginia edu writes does any one out there listen wfan for those you who not know what talking about all sports radio staion new york clear night the signal reaches and down the east coast particular want know how len berman and mike lupica show school virginia can listen when there are during the day just wondering you right about the signal being strong live west philadelphia and can get fan almost perfectly sports fans dream especially that person from and wants hear about his teams while away school for lupica berman turned out lupica then berman neither them wanted work full four hour show coleman and dave sims old four hour slot was broken down into two seperate two hour show lupica from and berman from and they both happen suck comparison eddie and dave come back guys the fan okay sports radio station but doesn come close the ultimate sports radio wip philadelphia the signal might not powerful but then again only stations new york feel obligated pollute everyone else airwaves with bunch hoodlum mets fans complaining hours day wip took two your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip rockin with sports talk from till midnight check out anytime your within few hours philadelphia not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings the nation like said live philly can hear fan and wip whenever want but cannot stand wip and isn because loathe the philly sports teams the phillies are favorite team yanks are favorite and the eagles aren too bad either there are two big problems total emphasis the home teams especially the eagles unlike the fan hosts who can least answer question about out town team caller asks the wip hosts seem have clue about any team that doesn play broad street also fans periodic sports updates every minutes gives sports news and scores from around the country very rare hear out town score being reported wip the hosts with the exception jody macdonald who miss from his days fan none the hosts really seems have both broad knowledge the sport good air presence the worst gary cobb who seems have been hired solely the basis that used play for the eagles anyway that two cents the whole fan wip battle alan
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series hpcv andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes guess which line which obp slg just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list give break alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant the team large extent frank thomas hit first lose lot rbi and anyways how many place hitters have you known drive runs doesn happen that often very unlikely with devon white obp front you gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series hxlk fix andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes dtate pitt edu david tate writes klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein said just love how the alomar fans left rbis off this list course they left rbis off comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual only individual stats count give break forgot most runs are scored players stealing home rbi don count for anything mistake all know what going happen now don gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help thanks bobby hank greenberg would have the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season was world series games because yom kippur pablo iglesias ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	ryan rumor this just nolan ryan hurt his right knee the inning the rangers orioles game last night having arthoscopic surgery that will best keep him the for two five weeks just when had almost convinced myself that the rangers rotation would stay healthy this year phil allen texdude bradley edu
rec.sport.baseball	need software for baseball stats looking for software hopefully free and runs unix box which will keep track statistics for company softball team batting avg etc you know any please post respond mail many thanks dan bergmann dbergmann llnl gov
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series hpg andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes kime mongoose torolab ibm com edward kim writes would tend call the offensive contributions even but alomar wins hands down defensive capabilities not just talking about the number errors nobody including lind has the range and athleticism second base can recall the recent past anyone turning the double play better than alomar well why don you look those stats baerga may not the best defensive second baseman the league but damn good check the stats for dps last year and see for yourself according the defensive average stats posted sherri baerga had the highest percentage dps turned the league while alomar had the worst however alomar had higher defensive average who would better using alomar opportunities groundballs possible double plays alomar had groundouts and turned dps baerga would have had with same groundouts and dps using baerga opportunites groundballs possible double plays alomar would have had with the same groundouts and dps baerga had groundouts and dps baerga looks better though possible his would lower with different will baerga consistently turn twice many double plays however alomar has established high level defense baerga has not would bet alomar better next year but last year baerga was just good overall dale stephenson steph uiuc edu grad student large considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	stats doug those stats are great they help immensely tried mail you with some comments them but mail server does not recognize your address could you mail with some info how get mail you thanks jim bragg jbragg morgan ucs mun
rec.sport.baseball	hate mention acker but article apr jhuvms hcf jhu edu hasch jhuvms hcf jhu edu bruce hasch writes article apr hpcvaac com paula koufax com paul andresen writes feel might causing some bad karma doing this but just have know the ack man still organized baseball glad you asked the ack man and nine his relatives are currently impersonating the baltimore orioles pitching staff personally believe that the evil ackers kidnapped the real staff and are currently the process impersonating mussina sutcliffe mcdonald olson the ack man apparently alien life form much like the pod people from planet mars who can take any form the ability remains the same however the ack people have been spotted many teams date but appears that the orioles staff mentioned above and the expos bullpen barnes walton fassero gardiner and rojas have been the prime target apparently john wetteland was roughed the ack people during spring training due the fact that his system rejected the takeover and has been the ever since contact the authorities this evil plot must stopped the ack people can keep jack morris and juan guzman though enjoy watching toronto fans suffer too much want these guys returned normal scot scot hughes department chemical engineering expos falcon mcgill mcgill university montreal quebec witty saying here
rec.sport.baseball	mcrae torre the worst manager article dak vma smsu edu ext dak vma smsu edu writes prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has the worst manager baseball brian very distressed cardinal fan hal mcrae the worst manager baseball never seen guy who can waste talent like can one the best raw talent staffs the league and still finding way lose surprised makes through the next weeks unless drastic improvement made news was doing report that they said that mcrae really batting coach and not manager but for some reason took the job whatever the reason the royals need new manager now while too late scott davis scott mccall com the mccall pattern company uucp widener depot mccall scott mccall road kansas manhattan usa
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series article blue cis pitt edu dtate pitt edu david tate writes substituting irony for brains bruce klopfenstein said dtate pitt edu david tate writes course they left rbis off comparing alomar the individual with baerga the individual only individual stats count forgot most runs are scored players stealing home rbi don count for anything right you also forgot that you can get rbi barring with nobody base what fraction all runs come solo most runs are scored because there happened players base when the batter did something good use the phrase happened advisedly lots people have tried figure out who the players are who have the most ability turn notch clutch rbi whatever situations and what they found that there evidence that anyone has such ability any measurable extent there are clutch hitters people who tend things that would cause rbi there were somebody base end getting rbis proportional how many their teammates obliged being position mistake agree too rbi are worthless stat course stolen bases because sometimes runners are front player that would otherwise run and course pitchers pitch differently with different people different bases batting average slugging and obp out too hmmm guess homers would not count then either point rbi might not perfect stat but nothing and stat lack can tell there are clutch hitters maybe stat can tell either but some people are just know
rec.sport.baseball	phillies new ballpark future attn those who live inthe philadelphia metro area back september was listening wip and remember the morning guys were talking with mayor rendell the topic conversation was new ball park for the phillies the location for this new park was suggested near station the time the mayor was optimisitic that the future this could become reality has there been any new news this subject still pipe dream know the city philadelphia has other projects ahead such the new convention center and the upcoming spectrum but would nice see this reality planned that the phillies leave the vet and leave solely the eagles and that the case the eagles should make the vet grass stadium but that another story want see that day comments
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes baseball fans what you say don you think deserves mean heck dave winfield hum seriously being considered for lee smith then why don give dave kingman chance darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall fame takes them can take eddie murray and jeff reardon trying think how respond this without involving personal feeling perceptions and can not without having stats back points however think you approached this the wrong way believe all the people mentioned here deserve the hall fame more than dave kingman does feel they were all much better players not saying fell they deserve but that they would deserve more imho dave kingman definately not they guy only had couple years were could hit with atleast respectable averag the rest his career not think was very feared pitchers also not think did lot for the game mean really met fan was met for part his career and still would not back him for the hall fame dave winfield think feared pitchers has had several season where hit for respectable average and his production numbers are opinion without stats better than kingman probably quite bit also perceive him leader maybe not much some other people but none the less leader think has made substantial contributions the game baseball and society examples this are some the charitable things has done know some this from when was with the yankees think the type player that kids can look and while this definately not the only criteria for the hall fame think deserves some consideration lee smith maybe would have see his stats again but definately would deserve before the likes kingman darrell evans eddie murray maybe has had very good career leader although silent one good role model are the stats good enough not sure but would once again believe they are much better than kingman both the average well the power numbers but not good winfield just think eddie did not have much publicity for most his great years jeff reardon guess but kind depends his numbers off the top head would take lee smith first well any case sick and tired mostly sick everybody giving hall fame consideration players that are today standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal well strongly disagree here both these guys deserve for sure talked about leadership above both these guys are leaders and have been instumental leading their teams the post season robin does have very good offensive numbers both average and power and ozzie has okay numbers offensively the difference with ozzie that you gave him home run for every run saved making incredible play shortstop would have shattered aaron home run mark now how many those great plays saved games how many those great plays motivated his team rally and win game while believe both these guys have numbers baseball about more than numbers least winning baseball about more than numbers both these guys are proven stars and belong the hall fame does george brett who also belongs this class player let little more selective huh stop handing out these honors liberally save them for the guys who really deserve face something isn done there will little prestige the hall fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity apparent gee can these guys even compare the more likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan steve garvey not sure probably not but guess could see someone making case for him jack morris once again not first choice but can see why someone might bring his name kirby puckett probably the only reason not say definately still has time left his career continues doing what has been then probably will turn into definately nolan ryan there really any doubt think heard something about him having some records maybe they were not all good don know did not hear any them just the number has the numbers has the contributions the game and community and great role model would not say that the best pitcher ever pitch the game probably not even top but would the first pitcher would put the hall fame because his accomplishments hitters strikeouts respectable numbers even with some weaker teams you can and really hope gets all the possible votes summing have groups those that belong those that probably but not sure and those that lean towards saying don belong least not without seeing stats and possibly hearing reasons why they should yes winfield yount brett not your mail smith puckett and ryan maybe murray and smith reardon garvey morris evans and definately kingman said not have the stats around not have numbers back this these are entirely opinions based perceptions mike steve
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes second basemen history probably didn even have good season alomar last year guess which line which obp slg the walks should give away obp general somewhat more valuable than slugging and alomar edge obp was quite bit larger than baerga edge slugging sdcn but what more valuable hits more doubles more hrs more triples and bbs let not forget the extra sbs how many course the hits and homers are more valuable but don forget the outs you can have both ways baerga higher raw numbers are due him having more playing time and thus had more hits and homers but don forget the cost those outs btw just answer your question alomar had and baerga had and which gives minute plus alomar side something else consider alomar splits were slg obp baerga was and pretty clearly alomar got huge boost from his home park say you could make good for them being about equal right now rated baerga higher actually mike disclaimer these opiini damn exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zzzzzz man help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop
rec.sport.baseball	opi through first week here the opi offensive production index for all players with least bats early the season there are some very high numbers last years leader was frank thomas teams are denoted the first character the name and each player has his team preceeding his name the equations used are found the end the post comments and suggestions are welcome kevin league opi league league slg league oba rank player opi slg oba tor carter cle baerga det phillips oak mcgwire tor white bal anderson nyy owen oak rhenderson mil thon oak browne tex palmer det gibson cle howard nyy tartabull tex rodriguez tex gonzalez bos zupcic sea felder oak blankenship min puckett nyy oneill cle belle sea buhner mil hamilton det whitaker det fielder tor sprague whi cora whi raines nyy kelly bos quintana sea tmartinez cal gonzales whi burks cal snow whi karkovice cleveland cle sorrento sea amaral bos cooper min winfield cal curtis bos mvaughn oak steinbach oakland nyy maas kan joyner min knoblauch bos greenwell oak brosius tor olerud bal mercedes nyyankees bal hoiles mil kmak oak dhenderson cle lofton min larkin bos dawson cle camartinez det gladden cal polonia california detroit det tettleton cal disarcina cal easley bal baines tex franco whi ljohnson sea vizquel nyy bwilliams mil gvaughn min hrbek bal cripken seattle cal salmon kan mcreynolds toronto texas min pagliarulo whitesox kan hiatt whi guillen whi thomas kan mcrae boston cle hill nyy mattingly baltimore bal gomez minnesota whi fisk cle jefferson oak neel cal cdavis bos fletcher milwaukee det livingstone tor ralomar kansascity oak bordick tex canseco sea valle bal devereaux kan lind mil surhoff kan brett whi bell cle salomar mil jaha det fryman nyy boggs tex bripken min mack min harper cle fermin bos rivera mil spiers mil yount tor schofield tex hulse sea griffey sea obrien kan macfarlane oak sierra kan jose bos hatcher sea blowers whi ventura tex palmeiro bal reynolds kan mayne cal myers nyy nokes bos calderon bos pena tor molitor det deer det cuyler tor borders whi grebeck bal gdavis tex dascenzo min leius mil reimer tor djackson tex gill kan gagne opi slg oba jet propulsion laboratory schmke cco caltech edu oak grove schmidt spc jpl nasa gov pasadena
rec.sport.baseball	opi through first week here the opi offensive production index for all players with least bats early the season there are some high numbers barry bonds finished last season welcome comments and suggestions kevin league opi league league slg league oba rank player opi slg oba phi daulton phi kruk cub grace cub may col boston pit bell col galarraga stl pena stl zeile cin mitchell mon lansing pit slaught mon vanderwal nym tfernandez snf martinez hou bagwell col hayes col eyoung mon alou cin milligan phi dykstra snf bonds flo conine snd plantier hou gonzalez hou anthony col cole atl sanders mon berry cub sosa stl jefferies pit vanslyke montreal los butler mon grissom pit king snd gwynn pit merced nym murray stl gilkey nym bonilla snd walters cub wilson flo weiss philadelphia atl justice pittsburgh stl osmith phi incaviglia pit young stlouis colorado nym hundley nym orsulak snf benjamin atl gant nymets houston mon pitcher phi morandini hou cedeno cin sabo snf manwaring snfrancisco atl blauser snf thompson hou caminiti flo barberie mon cordero snd sheffield los karros snf williams snd mcgriff flo destrade col girardi atl bream mon wood flo santiago phi thompson snf clayton los piazza snd bell los wallach cin larkin pit garcia cincinnati nym coleman nym kent stl whiten cin roberts cubs snf lewis hou finley col clark los pitcher sndiego atl lemke losangeles snf mcgee atlanta cin sanders cin oliver snd gardner los reed phi hollins florida los davis atl pendleton snf clark los strawberry hou biggio phi bell flo magadan stl pagnozzi pit martin col bichette hou taubensee mon bolick flo pose mon cianfrocco nym johnson cin kelly atl nixon nym pitcher pit pitcher cub buechle stl lankford atl olson cub vizcaino cub sanchez phi duncan los offerman snf pitcher mon laker phi chamberlain snd pitcher atl pitcher phi pitcher cub maldonado flo felix cin espy stl jordan atl berryhill cub pitcher snd shipley stl pitcher hou pitcher col benavides cin pitcher cub wilkins flo pitcher col pitcher opi slg oba jet propulsion laboratory schmke cco caltech edu oak grove schmidt spc jpl nasa gov pasadena
rec.sport.baseball	oakland oaks memorabilia there ebbets field flannels seattle which makes lots minor and negro league jackets and jerseys these things are real spendy around for jersey but they are very authentic look and nicely made paul long live steve bilko and the pcl angels their phone number the last catalog shows three oaks jerseys home home home they each all their merchandise handmade and authentic replica own couple and they are excellent they also have wool caps and jackets you should call get their mailing list even you can afford their prices anton
rec.sport.baseball	ryam out for weeks nolan ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee having surgery and expected miss weeks
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages third base jjrj uiuc edu steph uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players the reports stats are courtesy sherri nichols players are listed descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen name mitchell kevin yep that kevin mitchell never would have expected him the spot gonzales rene accident that the first two names are only with first and second base was the year the glove average was points higher both leagues than any other year leius scott looks good too bad moving short pendleton terry highest five year regular though only had one year good kevin mitchell ventura robin wallach tim gruber kelly the other elite fielders the league pagliarulo mike this interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year anybody part that may his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear have rotten infield was with the twins and judging leius and gaetti the metrodome may good place play third williams matt add another the elite fielders list caminiti ken sabo chris too fielders whose career average may overstate their value don know what happened caminiti judging the three previous years his low may fluke sabo merely average however his incredible best year ever brings his average lot buechele steve strange last two years schmidt mike according reputation one the best fielders ever third base but the end was below average average was boggs wade boggs has been pretty good don know what happened but every other year has been above average usually quite bit martinez egdar last year fluke portent average seitzer kevin average why that the two leagues usually have defensive averages very close one another but very different from year year any ideas jacoby brook brook declining hansen dave magadan dave jefferies greg three first time regulars above average not sure why jefferies gets all the grief about his fielding never had good year but while second improved become average fielder and average fielder third zeile todd zeile the other hand below average fielder each year about points below average and probably not just the park since terry pendleton had excellent das the three years before this baerga carlos moving back second was good idea hayes chris why hayes supposed good defensively had grand total one year above the league and was pretty bad last year johnson howard lansford carney howard johnson and carney lansford separated birth his credit hojo did have one above average year lansford couldn even break the mark without the help the year the glove hollins dave good hitter but his fielding needs work sheffield gary not good fielder blauser jeff fryman travis both are better off shortstop gomez lee two consecutive horrible years for leo camden yards doesn seem have helped his fielding any palmer dean texas slugger debuts with not only the lowest career but the lowest third ever congratulations dean dale stephenson steph uiuc edu grad student large considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	two stooges well the red sox have apparenly resigned herm winningham aaa contract ted larry simmons signed him aaa contract then released him from buffalo allowing lou curly gorman circumvent the rule about not resigning free agents until may clearly neither these guys bright enough moe mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com make right before you make faster
rec.sport.baseball	yankee fears rawley eastwick
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series apr webo com lyford dagny webo com lyford beverage writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article rudyc netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes article fmxd dal niguma dal gord niguma writes reference history because certainly didn have the best season for second basemen history probably didn even have good season alomar last year what you have some measure like popularity toronto doesn count that you are basing this statement yes baerga has lot flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters slg obp rbi baerga alomar this fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that with numbers showing that baerga had better year the only category that see which shows advantage for alomar obp hmmm what about walks and baerga got clobbered alomar obp and beat him slg lesser margin even putting aside any other factors player with point edge obp more productive than player with point edge slg the issue has been studied before and doubt you could come with any convincing argument the other way people see the batting average and the but they don really know their value worth unless they studied the issue closely the fact that baerga ate lot more outs than alomar while baerga was making outs alomar was drawing walks and being base for carter winfield gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg runs rbis was notes jays indians series article dal niguma dal gord niguma writes alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant the team large extent frank thomas hit first lose lot rbi and anyways how many place hitters have you known drive runs doesn happen that often very unlikely with devon white obp front you pretty sure that sandberg has done this least once know someone will correct wrong rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away john bratt gord niguma fav player john olerud
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has the worst manager baseball for anyone who didn see sunday game with right hander pitching decides bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs puts lankford hitter with power pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with power pinch hitter what the hell thinking educate yourself before you rip this years manager the year lankford injured himself previous game and torre was resting him far the whitten gilkey controversy whitten adds some more needed power and jordan continues hit the way has been gilkey will find himself the starting lineup soon enough sam brian landmann georgia institute technology internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players hank greenberg was probably the greatest ever was also subject lot heckling from bigots the opposing teams and the stands but never seemed affect his performance negatively bob davis rbd thor ece edu
rec.sport.baseball	omar vizquel grand salami you think omar grand slam the result his new fan club last week banner appeared the kingdome older women for omar cheryl cheryl marks address cherylm lsid com desk cheryl marks hpa telenet bell usps cheryl marks soper hill road everett too much good thing wonderful mae west
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes actually kind liked the abott trade did trade the rookie the year snow but with don mattingly first for another years why bother willing make two wagers snow doesn win roy mattingly out baseball within five years skeptical the first because don think snow that good player and losing team skeptical the second because his back mattingly this year and how many players play until they are not too many and most them didn have chronic back problems when they were could wrong either both but think that the smart way bet cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	baseballisdead scott asd com scott barman writes forget word has three divisions with wild card just about done deal has decided soon since negotiations with the networks also have begin soon preliminary negotiations started already believe though the word that they are going slooooooooooooooooooooooowly greg
rec.sport.baseball	let talk phillies article from follows from bml lehigh edu brian michael lucy subject let talk phillies date apr gmt organization lehigh university lines article uflkll vpcekw andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu amit likhy ani writes excerpts from netnews rec sport baseball apr let talk phillies msopher vaxc stevens like this well how spell cellar ninja jew are there any philly fans who want put money that not stop your woofing ben rivera got hammered true last week but tonight pitched shutout innings and got runs behind him that why one phrase for you fuck you thanks
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series article apr news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu edward ouellette writes point rbi might not perfect stat but nothing and stat lack can tell there are clutch hitters maybe stat can tell either but some people are just know was hoping somebody would mention clutch clutch baerga the two words simply not together with runners scoring position baerga batted last year this doesn quite suck but most batters hit better this situation alomar hit with runners scoring position the difference alomar had rbis such baerga had rbis such baerga got more chances yet succeeded only more times frankly don believe clutch but did vote would alomar for mvp let alone best the valentine
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame steve tomassi writes baseball fans what you say don you think deserves mean heck dave winfield hum seriously being considered for lee smith then why don give dave kingman chance darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall fame takes them can take eddie murray and jeff reardon unfortunately you seem lack the ability rate players dave winfield has had better career than half the people the hall fame eddie murray and darrel evans are both one the top players all time lee smith has had probably the greatest long career any relief pitcher since with the possible exception gossage the other hand kingman probably isn one the best players all time and reardon though good pitcher isn smith class career wise well any case sick and tired mostly sick everybody giving hall fame consideration players that are today standards marginal honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal talking the top players all time here there probably aren shortstops history who were better than these two let little more selective huh stop handing out these honors liberally save them for the guys who really deserve face something isn done there will little prestige the hall fame anymore when certain individuals believe that steve garvey jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity apparent garvey sucked morris while very good pitcher simply doesn belong near cooperstown gee can these guys even compare the more likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan puckett and ryan okay there get into the hall they will marginal hall famers unless puckett keeps hitting like did last year for while longer put this perspective here listing the linear weights values the careers the players you mention parenthesis how high they are the greatest ever list they make while one would claim these are perfect rankings they should give you good value these guys careers compared average players robin yount ozzie smith dave winfield eddie murray darrel evans kirby puckett nolan ryan jack morris dave kingman steve garvey give you idea how these numbers compare those the hall the eligible players whose career stats equaled are the hall fame the ones who aren include century players ron santo bobby grich and bob johnson those eligible who score between and are those eligible who score between and are greg
rec.sport.baseball	phillies new ballpark future philadelphia inquirer few days ago was reported that there were two plans for new phillies stadium the already mentioned street station proposal and location near broad street and race street think can remember the exact details but the stadium would build practically downtown there small lot that could used according the paper the street plan has run into some trouble because amtrak does not want reroute some its lines order accomodate the stadium don have opinion just yet just letting everyone know that there are really two options being discussed right now neither these plans will put into effect very soon however because nobody wants pay for keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.baseball	box score abbrev woes can anybody figure out why some box score abbreviations make absolutely sense least the local gannett rag that finds its way door must have stared cleman the mets box for good seconds this morning wondering who the hell was wouldn make more sense use colemn jay
rec.sport.baseball	infield fly rule one last infield fly question that has always puzzled and hasn yet been addressed believe the rule also does not deal with this situation infield fly declared and the ball caught runners can tag and advance their own risk any fly ball however the infield fly not caught what point can runner legally leave his base fear being doubled off for advancing too early when the ball hits the ground when fielder first touches the ball after hits the ground enlightenment would appreciated jay
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help john lowenstein definately not jewish many baltimore thought was especially after told the baltimore jewish times but later admitted that was joke
rec.sport.baseball	wfan article knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite wrote wip took two your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks dude are you nuts wfan second none jody mac exit was quite loss but you think fredericks the fan was much one you pretty skewed sean
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja article ericsc hzr eui netcom com erics netcom com eric smith writes yeah the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year but all caught them one game streak old man and was big phillies fan the time age the dodgers somebody else finish two games back that has one the closest last minute scrambles ever since was born the late pleistocene too remember that year the dodgers were several games out first and think finished sixth the league this was kind odd because they won the world series both the previous year and the following year warren usui one with the universe scale from
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja previously wrote yeah the phillies played over their heads almost the whole year but all caught them one game streak old man and was big phillies fan the time age september still painful thing remember but can tell you that the phillies never led the league that year going memory alone believe their biggest lead was games and they were ahead when the famous game losing streak began streak during which seemed that they found just about every way lose known man anyway think they rebounded just before the end and won their last couple games and were still the thing until the final day but finished tied with the giants one game out and didn the dodgers somebody else finish two games back that has one the closest last minute scrambles ever you guys stirred childhood memories went and did some research the final month the season turns out that recollections were pretty darn accurate least far the phillies record goes september this was the top the standings philadelphia cincinnati louis san francisco this game game description the remainder the phillies season date score opponent lead pitcher starting and winner loser houston bunning houston short houston bennett san francisco mahaffey baldschun win san francisco bunning san francisco short baldschun los angeles bennett los angeles wise los angeles mahaffey louis bunning baldschun cardinals take over place from cincinnati louis short san francisco bennett san francisco mahaffey giants move into tie for with louis san francisco bunning cardinals back sole possesion place houston short houston bennett houston bunning los angeles wise schantz los angeles short baldschun los angeles bennett baldschun los angeles bunning reds move back into tie for with cardinals well far good for the phillies but now all falls apart cincinnati mahaffey reds take sole possesion place cincinnati short cincinnati bennett milwaukee bunning milwaukee short boozer cards now back giants milwaukee mahaffey schantz milwaukee bunning phils lose games days reds take over cardinals back louis short cardinals take over place phils drop louis bennett reds and cardinals now tied for louis bunning cardinals take game lead over reds cincinnati short roebuck phillies halt game losing streak cards lead reds game did not play cards lose mets reds tied for phils game back cincinnati bunning cards beat mets take first from reds and phillies whew what finish and the final standings were louis philadelphia cincinnati san francisco now doesn appear that phillies pitchers bunning and short were really overused least the four man rotation standard the day until well along into the game losing streak which time mauch was probably desperate for win any cost because the phillies substantial lead had evaporated the way they were used that time may have made the problem worse although bunning had one his sharpest games the year the final day shutout the reds that cost the reds share the pennant bunning pitched complete game six hitter striking out five and walking one would inetersting see though how the total innings for the year for bunning and short stacks against the rest the league also notice that the phillies played every day from least september through october while they didn play substantially more games than the other teams the other teams each had couple days off during that stretch eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract just little something found while reading the village voice which not noted for its sports coverage but occasionally the print some interesting features this year the predictions team analyses for the season were presented the form bob dylan lyrics don have the article front only give the memorable ones here that remember and know the melody could dig more there interest yankess the tune subterranean homesick blues howe the basement mixing the medicine george the pavement thinking bout the government wade boggs trench coat bat out paid off says got bad back wants get laid off look out kids somethin you did don know when but columbus again mets the tune like rolling stone once upon time you played fine you threw away dykstra before his prime didn you people said beware cone bound roam but you thought they were just kidding you you used laugh about the strawberry that was headin out but now you don talk loud now you don seem proud about having shop vince coleman for your next deal phillies the tune highway well daulton and dykstra should have some fun just keep them off highway giants the tune the ballad rubin hurricane carter this the story the magowan the man petersburg came pan for something that never done sits the owner box but one day could have been the tampian the world bill moakler lpo rutgers anime moakler remus rutgers edu box atlantic anime alliance new brunswick chibi con not otaku free man
rec.sport.baseball	going cubbies game well after suffering from intense fit minnesota induced cabin fever decided road trip milwaukee and take couple games this weekend couple games county stadium will great relieve tension but thought why not wrigley for game too see the cubs are playing the phillies sat start believe that eastern time listed figured would fun bounce down wrigley for the day game and live little wondering anyone esp cubbie fans have some advice taking skokie hwy south until runs into what the best way get wrigley planning getting there hour two early and paying through the nose for parking keep things easy probable that able walk and get bleacher seats game day figure since early the year ryno out and the weather isn great should able get tickets not what the best way get advance tickets can call the cubs ticket office directly and pick tickets the will call window any advice where eat before after the game they allow inflatable luv ewe dolls present from lundy into the bleachers dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays again kirsch staff umn edu new quotes out context not beat dead horse but been couple weeks this disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	yankee fears would mail this you but mailserver doesn recognize you something anyway the worst pitcher the yanks you mean currently the team then have with scott schizophrenic not kamienicki sure occasionally the guy can pitch well for innings but then starts insane sure sign that losing his stuff and his mind when starts stalk around the mound between batters and yell himself the worst all time yanks pitcher gotta with new york have pitch gulp new york whitson nuff said outta here like vladimir alan sepinwall xviii what this this ice this what happens water when gets too cold this this kent this what happens people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg runs rbis was notes jays indians series article jqby news rich bnr bratt crchh nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game flame away what does that have with rbi the team with the most rbi doesn necessarily win the game yes runs are the most important statistice for team why does every newspaper rank team offense batting average but for individual player runs and rbis are context dependent and tell very little about the player himself and more about his teammates and position the batting order ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	old predictions laugh tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes from jpalmer uwovax uwo thu sep ron hassey will minor league manager with the yankees dunno what happened him maybe can help you major league coach with the rockies above prediction doubly wrong prediction the red sox cubs series and vikings broncos superbore will occur the end the world and one rockie will finish the top offensive catagory this year and rockie starter will have era below and the rangers fade will not begin until august they give way the angels but still challenge the end really not making any this may god strike down zzzzzzt thanks for listening valentine dylan wilbanks environ con the official usenet rabid fan the major colorado boulder colorado rockies clip this sig for box boulder off your next rockies woof life bigger this space intenionally blank
rec.sport.baseball	phils east not weak love how all these people are blaming the phillies success weak division why don look the record the teams each division read inter divisional play see that the east really kicking the shit out the west know early but that all have atlanta just strong with their cincinnati coming off sweep veteran stadium philadelphia and houston was swept first three games the phillies the astrodome that western division friends shows that the three best teams your division may not strong you think phils all the way braves hit like aaa club reds need marge bob
rec.sport.baseball	lots runs have noticed that this year has had lot high scoring games least the has believe one reason are the expansion teams any thoughts charles
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu brian landmann writes joe torre has the worst manager baseball for anyone who didn see sunday game with right hander pitching decides bench lankform left handed hitter and play jordan and gilkey both right handers later the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs puts lankford hitter with power pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with power pinch hitter what the hell thinking for your information lankford injured think his shoulder rib cage could not use him pinch hitter earlier the game interview about acquiring mark whiten commented how fortunate the cardinals were get whiten and that whiten would regular even though this meant that gilkey would hurt but torre said liked gilkey coming off the bench gilkey hit over last year what does have start the guy would starting most every team the league believe that whiten was very good aquisition for the cards does not have too much offensive capabilities but awesome defensively since when have the cardnials actually thought offense instead defense forgot who louis gave for him but was not too much far gilkey concerned leftfielder and brian jordan who beat him out expect see gilkey jordan platoon furthermore sundays game when lankford was thrown out the plate the replay showed bucky dent the third base coach looking down the line and waving lankford home agree with you this one soon larkin threw that ball knew that lankford was dead bird but how could dent have known that larkin would make perfect throw strongly believe that torre one the best managers baseball don forget the overachieving cards that won all those close games and went from last place second place although they were oveshadowed the braves twins last first climb won division title and barely lost pennant race when was with the braves why atlanta ever even considered firing him will never understand with torre the controls the cardinals are heading the right direction one more thing one game does not make season yes they lost the reds but with the second best pitching staff the national league first the east and pretty good offense the redbirds will win lot more than they lose maybe this the year that they will all the way charles very enthusiastic cardnials fan charles rosen thirty four thirteen university alabama national champs roll tide tuscaloosa need say more
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract reposted without permission from rec music dylan article apr uvaarpa virginia edu buck vax museum upenn edu wrote for those you who like both bob and baseball check out the current village voice april john lammers and hart seely have written the bob dylan baseball abstract and they have covered every team both leagues example colorado the silent bats will shatter from the scores between the lines for they one too many castoffs and thousand runs behind rebecca buck vax museum upenn edu gerry myerson
rec.sport.baseball	why spanky mon apr gmt apr mnemosyne edu greg spira gspira nyx edu wrote does anybody the pittsburgh area know why mike lavalliere was released last year kept saying that slaught should get the bulk the playing time that was clearly the better player this point but leyland insisted keeping pretty strict platoon and now released that doesn make any sense greg the story goes like this spanky too slow were quicker would still here but with slaught and tom prince they didn want lose prince order bring that pitcher slaught about good spanky and prince coming along nicely don feel too bad for him still gonna get theat over the next two years able most what wants jon iain boone network systems administrator boone psc edu iain cmu edu pittsburgh supercomputing center don speak for anyone other than myself unless otherwise stated
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir not clear all certainly rather have team who was winning games than games the game luck going play much bigger role than the game but you still need the pitching staff hold the opposing team one run sam sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article qkkodinn jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help thanks bobby hank greenberg would have the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season was world series games because yom kippur thought that was sandy koufax sam pablo iglesias ruth ece jhu edu
rec.sport.baseball	jose canseco swing article jkik ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu gary built like villanueva huckabay writes was going over some videos last night and you wrote excellent report about bulked too much period needs lose about pounds not gain more bulk his bat speed has absolutely vanished conservatively say lost his bat speed and that huge amount speed that open stance killing him note that acts sort like brian downing way open start then closes ball released downing could this without significant head movement canseco can also note that canseco doesn always close his stance the same way sometimes his hips are open sometimes they fully closed without good starting point hard make adjustments your swing understand from unreliable source that canseco was considered expendable the when refused accept any coaching about his batting stance the brain trust came believe that his back problems were exacerbated not caused having wide open stance closing quickly and then swinging with lot torque that paraphrase what remember any event canseco took the road that and alone would decide his stance and the began believe that would either reinjure himself begin lose his ability hit for both average and power aside from salting away large sum cash that could never touch that never have work again restructure entire swing apparently you sound like larussa second drop pounds cut out the weight work the also objected about this canseco open stance and resulting bad habits are result his back problems out baseball three years not could still hit again just repeating something heard but possibly the cause and effect the reverse that the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players you can add steve rosenberg one time white sox reliever now the mets system the list greg
rec.sport.baseball	the bob dylan baseball abstract just little something found while reading the village voice which not noted for its sports coverage but occasionally the print some interesting features this year the predictions team analyses for the season were presented the form bob dylan lyrics don have the article front only give the memorable ones here that remember and know the melody could dig more there interest yankess the tune subterranean homesick blues howe the basement mixing the medicine george the pavement thinking bout the government wade boggs trench coat bat out paid off says got bad back wants get laid off look out kids somethin you did don know when but columbus again mets the tune like rolling stone once upon time you played fine you threw away dykstra before his prime didn you people said beware cone bound roam but you thought they were just kidding you you used laugh about the strawberry that was headin out but now you don talk loud now you don seem proud about having shop vince coleman for your next deal phillies the tune highway well daulton and dykstra should have some fun just keep them off highway giants the tune the ballad rubin hurricane carter this the story the magowan the man petersburg came pan for something that never done sit the owner box but one day could have the tampian the world
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes stankiewicz not stankowitz and not jewish polish the way the correct pronunciation according stanky himself ston kev itch all the sportscasters get wrong polish and jewish are not mutually exclusive mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes willing make two wagers snow doesn win roy mattingly out baseball within five years skeptical the first because don think snow that good player and losing team don have history handy but don recall that the preponderance roy come from winning teams fact think team performance generally irrelevant almost always the most deserving candidate wins wrong and not necessarily losing team while the angels staff still very weak their everyday lineup doing quite well thank you snow playing great salmon learning make the adjustments easley appears fine but even not flora ready come between gonzales and gruber they manage the hot corner polonia and curtis are steady and heady even myers and orton are contributing personally think they can finish over which makes them winning team the beastmaster skeptical the second because his back mattingly this year and how many players play until they are not too many and most them didn have chronic back problems when they were could wrong either both but think that the smart way bet cheers valentine mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	music censorship survey please fill out hello doing paper censorship music and would appreciate you took the time participate this survey please answer each question asks why simply means that you have room explain your answer you chose the last question for any comments questions suggestions thank you advance please mail the address the end are you male female what your age iii what your major occupation what type music you listen check all that apply hard rock metal alternative blues rap jazz soft rock easy listening country classical hard core dance new age others did miss any you think recordings with objectionable offensive lyrics labeled yes why you think certain recordings should banned from minors under years age yes why you think certain recordings should banned period yes why yes any the above who should decide parents government music industry other feel free add any comments this you think more less should done for controling record sales you think the present labeling system enough what your definition censorship also feel free add comments suggestions questions further explanations please mail mtt kepler unh edu hit reply thanks matthew thompson disclaimer any responses are used paper they will anoynamous unless the person specifies they what their name used this sig closed for repairs ution matthew thompson rrrrrrr pound pound thud ouch duh mail mtt kepler unh edu shazam unh edu
rec.sport.baseball	erickson keith miller was just wondering anyone knew when erickson and keith miller are expected come back and what exactly ails them sincerely frank kim
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame kingman fan just thought point out that the only player history have five three games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each don think reggie game counts else believe would also have had two the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir article apr ulkyvx louisville edu pjtier ulkyvx louisville edu writes the braves continue average runs game then where they will finish tierney the braves run production falls per game which certainly where headed they lucky does that mean they finish first econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email has been changed new address fls econ duke edu mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg runs rbis was notes jays indians series bratt crchh nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics actually they pretty worthless you want evaluate players with stats rbis and runs scored should banned all they confuse victims mediot brainwashing like yourself you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game you just explained why use obp and slg evaluate players precisely because the team that scores more runs wins the game traditional baseball stats have gotten way too far away from methods which enable fans see who contributes those runs scored that where obp slg runs created linear weights etc come these simplify matters that can more easily measure player offensive contribution the team runs scored thank you for making our case have nice day greg
rec.sport.baseball	wfan not nuts wip second none the sports station they don have tony bruno working espn radio and morganti doing friday night hockey because they suck live richmond but visit phila often and the way get wtem washington and wip hear the fan night wherever the signal used wnbc when they played golden oldies because you can avoid those three wip has the best hosts hands down chuck cooperstein isn homer and neither jody mac wtem too generic placed the catergory fact you have heard wtem and the fan you notice the theme music identical same ownership think wip totally original their hosts actually have personality this knock tem the team not the fan because mike and the mad dog and sommers are good mean comparing the morning guys philadelphia the ones washington total joke anyway like the fan and wip but think the edge goes when get back from philly into withdraw cause richmond has nada except the national sports line and those guys are totally clueless was really mad when wcau was cancelled because they had steve fredericks doing sports phone after the phillies games wcau another strong station now oldies station but they still have the phillies started listening the fan because heard went there finally heard him last summer and wasn the same guy those fans got him was glad hear him back philly when went see few eagles games will admit die hard eagles fan and wip basically eagles station days year but bet you the phillies are control right now about the knock cobb like him knows the eagles like book remember the weekend before they went play san fran when everyone thought the eagles would blown away cobb said that the eagles usually play their best when one believe they can win well they were inches shy pulling the victory well that
rec.sport.baseball	best sportwriters since someone brought sports radio howabout sportswriting anyone give opinion which city you think has the best sports coverage terms print media these are general questions the washington post better than the philadelphia inquier the times howabout the philadelphia daily news compared the new york daily news you notice papers being subjective objective the home team
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series something else consider alomar splits were slg obp baerga was and pretty clearly alomar got huge boost from his home park not necessarily could mean that could mean that just hit lot better home than did the road see frank thomas home road splits for example would guess that some alomar split due the skydome but most probably due just coincidence there way sure course but the only hitters the skydome seems regularly help lot are right handed home run hitters and alomar not home run hitter say you could make good for them being about equal right now rated baerga higher actually only because bogus fielding stats which rate alomar the worst defensive second baseman the league career basis think fielding stats may mean something but seasonal basis comes with ridiculous results like this alomar may not the god fielding the media says but sure isn the worst baseball offensively rate alomar much higher last year regarding the argument just say they both very good players with different strengths and bright future greg
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes recently been working project determine the greatest players their respective postions career what about johnny hodapp the greatest baseman cleveland indians history hits consistantly over great great second baseman jon johnny hodapp jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu
rec.sport.baseball	best sportwriters csc imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes since someone brought sports radio howabout sportswriting happen big fan jayson stark baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday writes week review column writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats has section called kinerisms the week which are stupid lines mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy get hit also writes for baseball america that column sort highlights week review you can check his column out sometime might make you laugh rob koffler you live day day and rkoffler cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article mssc netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes don have history handy but don recall that the preponderance roy come from winning teams fact think team performance generally irrelevant almost always the most deserving candidate wins wrong not really though wouldn personally say the most deserving candidate wins rarely does player win roy when called mid season and there have been several duds recent years but this more factor mediot biases than anything else wonder amaral hits like capable will receive roty votes only could have long career ahead him and not necessarily losing team while the angels staff still very weak their everyday lineup doing quite well thank you snow playing great salmon learning make the adjustments easley appears fine but even not flora ready come between gonzales and gruber they manage the hot corner polonia and curtis are steady and heady even myers and orton are contributing personally think they can finish over which makes them winning team think they are second division team they should finish ahead the royals mariners and possibly athletics but don think they above think the east stronger this year last year their pitching was bad and their offense was horrible this year their offense better but their pitching still pretty bad even finley returns form won replace what they lost abbott sanderson farrell don believe and while their may good and they have decent speed their offense lacks punch they don have any bona fide power hitters salmon snow davis and curtis none with more than potential cheers valentine which team had the most steals last week those tigers the mediots finally managed convince them that they needed more balance their lineup you see they were scoring too many runs too consistently gotta run more break that
rec.sport.baseball	survey yes know this not rec music someone has already pointed out thanks know that trying get random sample and also desperate for respones please don mail complaining that doesn belong here that wasting bandwidth this affects everybody not just readers music groups please either complete the survey hit because just bounce back complaints thank you matt matthew thompson electrical computer engineering etallic university new hampshire mail mtt kepler unh edu evil twin shazam unh edu
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes remember reading somewhere that the league was jewish during the now there practically nobody
rec.sport.baseball	think going cry again yankees lose again can believe this howe has era the improving key pitches great game and they screw again
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article jsxs unix amherst edu jlroffma unix amherst edu joshua lawrence roffman writes baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help john lowenstein definately not jewish many baltimore thought was especially after told the baltimore jewish times but later admitted that was joke stanky not jewish least doubt lot jewish people don have jewish names
rec.sport.baseball	pleasant yankee surprises article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article apr alleg edu luriem alleg edu michael lurie the liberalizer writes actually kind liked the abott trade did trade the rookie the year snow but with don mattingly first for another years why bother willing make two wagers snow doesn win roy mattingly out baseball within five years you are quite correct but was using some wishful thinking snow was wasting away while abbott can provide great resourse for the team
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article qkkodinn jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes hank greenberg would have the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season was world series games because yom kippur kofax missed world series game because the jewish day repentence
rec.sport.baseball	ryan out for weeks and then news uta edu quoth nolan ryan has torn cartlidge inhis right knee having surgery and expected miss weeks that too bad really had hoped nolan could end his career with great year suppose there still hope jason lee jplee oboe calpoly edu jlee cash busfac calpoly edu giants the most beautiful equation mathematics magic for all sad words tongue and pen the saddest are these number might have been john greenleaf whittier
rec.sport.baseball	braves offensive offense deion sanders hit home run his only today nixon was for infield single deion batting over nixon around whom would you start wise bobby see all the ballyard braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	astros for real who thinks the astros are going places they currently first place they the road
rec.sport.baseball	cubs expos roster questions alird msu oscs montana edu writes today cubs activated mike harkey from whom did they move make room for harkey shawn boskie
rec.sport.baseball	let talk phillies article apr leland stanford edu eechen leland stanford edu emery ethan chen writes one phrase for you fuck you thanks perhaps time start rec sport baseball graffiti where the kiddies can yell taunts and insults each other and leave the rest peace sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes not clear all certainly rather have team who was winning games than games the game luck going play much bigger role than the game but you still need the pitching staff hold the opposing team one run yeah but what your point you still need the offense score more runs than you allow too the braves have fine pitching staff but that still only half the game sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	why spanky article binn postoffice psc edu boone psc edu jon boone writes spanky too slow were quicker would still here but with slaught and tom prince they didn want lose prince order bring that pitcher slaught about good spanky and prince coming along nicely tom prince year old hit catcher think him young dann bilardello can begin fathom why the pirates have been afraid losing this guy who been aaa most the last seasons the pirates released kirk gibson last year because prince was out options then eventually sent prince down anyway and cleared waivers without peep another year older and still can hit why they think wouldn clear waivers now why would they care sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.baseball	new home for the bosox agree though also happy with stadium that looks like new comiskey the new park was also made for baseball unlike three rivers the vet riverfront etc not football park which they also play baseball while the multipurpose subject let not forget shea which was designed accommodate both the mets jets was the first stadium think have the box seats rollers they could oriented right angles for baseball parallel for football course with the jets gone jersey and truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with multipurpose stadium where because circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy particular have always hyped beautiful shea stadium tipoff how unbeautiful truly jay
rec.sport.baseball	orioles trivia bunker mcnally were later pappas estrada steve barber and jay
rec.sport.baseball	darrrrrrrrryl the media beating the incident dodger stadium wednesday death but haven seen anything rsb yet gerald perry the cardinals pinch hit the eighth inning with two and his club down run stroked line drive into the right field corner the ball cleared the three foot high fence and went into the crowd darryl racing over from right center got the spot time reach his glove over the short fence but missed the ball fan sitting the front row wearing mitt reached and caught the ball home run now seen the replay several times and have concluded that darryl missed the ball and that the fan glove was essentially behind darryl several dodger fans with seats the immediate vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with strawberry what cannot disputed however that the fan who caught the ball never took his eye off was oblivious where the fielder was playing was also quite exuberant soon realized had made the catch that exuberance disappeared immediately however when strawberry went into tirade the man all reports indicate used lot profanity and accused the man interference and therefore costing the dodgers game shortly afterwards other fans hurled food and beverages toward the man who made the catch dodger stadium officials started remove him from the park but then relented and just relocated him another area interview after the game lasorda blamed the fan for the loss strawberry also went into tirade about how the fans are stupid and they don care about winning times columnists similarly blasted the man who made the catch before each dodger game the public address announcer makes speech wherein says that fans are welcome the souvenirs balls that are hit into the stands long they not interfere with any that are the field play was the fan wrong should have been more aware the situation and acted avoid any possibility interference was human and just reacting the way season ticket holder and his request the dodgers have relocated his seats another area the stadium where future interference impossible others have questioned why darryl should concerned with what the fan did when has grand total rbi through the first nine games question what was doing right center with left handed pull hitter and the game the line had been closer the play certainly would have had much better chance catching the ball but guess the big debate continues what are the responsibilities the fan the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	gross grosses out dodger fans again went the dodgers game tonight was cap night astacio pitched but had control trouble all night the first walked batter balked him second then single scored the run with the batter taking second the throw home another single made the score cards lasorda tried new line featuring butler reed and piazza batting third darryl and eric were benched favor snyder and webster piazza homered the first make the score cards the dodgers tied the game the second two out single offerman the fourth inning astacio had already made about pitches but the score was still the dodger defense made several impressive plays piazza looked great behind the plate gunning down runner trying steal second throwing runner out first who had strayed bit from first base etc karros also made spectacular play keeping ball from going into the outfield the runner first was sure that ball was going through just kept running past second karros got and threw third and easily got the runner third heart sank the when gross got warm the bullpen astacio was lifted for pinch hitter and when gross entered the game with the score still dodger fans just knew was over gross was relieving because stunk tuesday pitching just innings forcing lasorda use much his bullpen the inning game had the same effect the next night only gross was fresh given his light work out tuesday gross lived his name walked the first batter gave hit the second and walked the bases loaded after grounder resulted force home zeile lifted scoring fly ball make cards gross paid little attention the runners and the next thing you knew the cards had stolen fourth run the runner first was eventually tagged out the run down but the run had scored long before that meanwhile the dodgers mounted little offense after the second inning lee smith pitched the ninth had little trouble getting karros and wallach does anyone have trouble with wallach these days cory snyder collected his first hit dodger single but that was all the offense the dodgers could mount smith got his third straight save against the dodgers and all got was free dodger cap and good look piazza piazza keeps this all year will strong candidate for rookie the year honors though its really early karros already showing signs sophomore jinx year the final score cardinals runs hits dodgers runs hits dodger
rec.sport.baseball	fenway gif article umassd edu acsddc smucs umassd edu writes was wondering anyone had any kind fenway park gif would appreciate someone could send one thanks advance dan too would like any park action gif jpeg about baseball geoff
rec.sport.baseball	game score report just out curiosity what happened the weekly and game score reports used enjoy reading them throughout the summer for the last two years inquisitively yours joel joel chan joel math toronto edu dept mathematics university toronto toronto blue jays world series champs history those who ignore are condemned repeat math too from the comic strip betty
rec.sport.baseball	jays game anyone know the outcome tonight jays game home runs winning pitcher eco gods
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article mssc dtv netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes still catching from spring break but bear with the bigs especially when they haven even played aaa ball certainly believe this kid going very good some day but there really need rush him especially since have mega million dollar staff that probably well served battery mate who expereienced game calling and pitcher handling lopez time will come let give him some time aaa javy lopez has proven over the minor leagues that ready play the majors not being rushed players who are clearly too good for and play behind stiffs the major league level are wasting their time and may actually have court case against major league management for keeping them aaa maybe need improve writing skills lopez who very ordinary defensively not likely hit well age unless lopez defensively and born play second base belongs the major leagues training what does have earn chance maybe not full time job but least couple starts and few for him prove his worth gee don know abs sounds pretty good about good your reasoning that the kid should play back role rather than start every day aaa talk about valentine isn saying should back saying should put position win the job the major leagues which imho would given the opportunity val misinterpreting please let know far you have come with two arguments against lopez very ordinary defensively young and most players suck when they are young the first irrelevant trying make the majors with his bat and the second involves seriously warped reasoning valentine most players are not ready for the bigs age see current related posting clayton one favorites most players benefit rather than being stagnant hurt playing aaa most catchers need solid defensively players help their clubs the bigs those are the arguments against lopez for the braves for this year but the players who are ready are the best and the ones most likely benefit from being the majors javy lopez not middle the road prospect the real thing now again the most important thing player can hit lopez does that miles better than olson berryhill his defense good enough for greenville richmond good enough for atlanta really was awful defensively would longer catcher see sprague now the braves have two catchers who have demonstrated solid abilities call games work with the pitchers throw out runners not superstars mind you but solid experienced veterans the braves have very solid lineup with two big bats the outfield excellent platoon first solid mvp candidate third and one the better hitting shortstops the center field platoon will probably hit however good lopez what they have offset the differential experience and defensive ability the kid will improve playing aaa and probably won being reserve with the big club where start first all solid good want good players solid one those words used describe nice white guys who really aren very good baseball think twg without the caps losing strategy say have solid guys don need improve you used four times that paragraph btw same for experienced might add though that greg olson and damon berryhill aren exactly carter and fisk olson has played three years berryhill five although and were wash the only difference imho between olson and valle the supporting cast two big bats hrm like justice but find gant trend disturbing call one and maybe the braves platoon but neither player has any value outside the platoon bream and hunter are awful leave the thirdbase comment alone pendleton has wasted too much bandwidth already the platoon hits retrace likhani midnight run down forbes and live and got that mike and doesn cox call pitches anyway goodness you believe the other poster who thinks lopez being held down because his future earning potential why earth you people thinkthe braves made this decision are they idiots who have built this ballclub jeeeesh nope they baseball management possible the most short sighted collection people the nation you not believe this goes mark you think frank thomas needed those three months aaa cal eldred wasn really better than ricky bones last year and the treasure you mostly polite make defensible flawed cases have wit and have the past admitted being wrong that does qualify you make sdcn out you yet the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com sheehan aludra usc edu greg gohr pitching more like voice tipper gore afraid linda cohn sportscenter
rec.sport.baseball	best sportwriters article news cso uiuc edu rkoffler cso uiuc edu bighelmet writes csc imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes since someone brought sports radio howabout sportswriting happen big fan jayson stark baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday writes week review column writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats has section called kinerisms the week which are stupid lines mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy get hit also writes for baseball america that column sort highlights week review you can check his column out sometime might make you laugh might you have have sense humor all not favorite stuff are the zero heros players who haven hit homers long time the lgtgah who that named after can remember and the box score line the week incidentally just found out that the column has been moved sundays get dad send here boston every week great stuff adam phaithful phillies phan levin
rec.sport.baseball	phils east not weak apr guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes braves hit like aaa club shouldn this read braves hitters are the aaa club dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players there was article jewish major leaguers recent issue elysian fields what used the minnesota review baseball recall had amazing amount research with long list players and large bibliography peter binkley binkley let rug
rec.sport.baseball	early bbddd returns just curious anyone has started standout early the season the ddd this year expect the phillies staff while getting the wins would have rank there luis gonzalez and derrick may are among the early league leaders and all their bombs have come the phils expense neither them have exactly been know for their tater prowess the past how have the rockies been early know mile high has produced ton runs but the launching pad everyone expected yet concerned fan the ddd adam witness the phillies lone loss the season far levin
rec.sport.baseball	royals the royals are darkness they are the void our time when they play shame descends upon the land like cold front from canada they are humiliation all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that guess they randall rhea informix software inc project manager mis sales marketing systems uunet pyramid infmx randall
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series article apr webo com lyford dagny webo com lyford beverage writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article rudyc netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes article fmxd dal niguma dal gord niguma writes probably didn even have good season alomar last year snip yes baerga has lot flash but alomar was the better hitter last year stats deleted all seen them now this fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that with numbers showing that baerga had better year the only category that see which shows advantage for alomar obp nominate this last bit for anti stathead quote the week alomar only has point advantage the most important offensive category while baerga who studied the joe carter school out burning has more impressive mediot stats largely due opportunities rather than quality the lines are fairly close value but edge alomar now baerga ain chopped liver but alomar still the man beat among second basemen craig craig richardson crichar eskimo com formerly eskimo celestial com pullman sleepers obfbl seattle rainiers ifl manager tacoma black adders ibl new jack city highlanders tacoma black adders growing excited team the future begins tomorrow
rec.sport.baseball	lots runs rec sport baseball crosen edu charles rosen writes have noticed that this year has had lot high scoring games least the has believe one reason are the expansion teams any thoughts except for the fact that there seems lot high scoring games also and don think the expansion teams directly affect them scott day kday oasys navy mil carderock division naval surface warfare center code bethesda maryland the point remember that what the government gives must first take away john coleman
rec.sport.baseball	proposed catcher sub rule lot teams carry catchers their man roster but the catcher seldom ever used only insurance case extra innings the catcher injured during game free this roster spot for extra pinch hitter reliever why not invoke catcher substitution rule the last roster catcher team injured during game the team permitted substitute his place for defensive purposes catcher who has previously been yanked from the game given this rule team wouldn need roster catchers the catcher could playing aaa non roster bullpen catcher ken
rec.sport.baseball	dopson pitches first shutout red sox win article news cso uiuc edu cka uxa cso uiuc edu oriolefan uiuc writes jmann vineland pubs stratus com jim mann writes deleted someone told this game started cdt this true who their right mind would game monday keep mind this was massachussetts today was patriots day state holiday think might floating holiday but given that the marathon also happens the same day most people don include std disclaimer dan
rec.sport.baseball	all time peak players last week posted the all time greatest players and haphazardly misspelled several names sorry this week time for the greatest peak players evaluated the following players consectutive seasons which constituted their prime peak years was too few seemed many settled for sources usual include total baseball and own biased opinions here goes feel free comment ted williams includes season after war missed actual peak years babe ruth walter johnson mickey mantle mike schmidt actual peak year shortened strike barrry bonds currently peak honus wagner cobb tris speaker willie mays lefty grove sandy koufax joe morgan walsh christy mathewson lou gehrig jimmie foxx cal ripken pete alexander young tim raines rickey henderson again strike year included carl yastrzemski jackie robinson joe dimaggio rogers hornsby george sisler eddie collins hank aaron stan musial joe jackson wade boggs charlie gehringer ernie banks bob gibson carl hubbell robin yount rod carew chuck klein willie mccovey frank robinson tom seaver roger clemens arguably still peak mel ott frank baker nap lajoie peak came suspect league dizzy trout george brett mordecai brown ryne sandberg peak gehrig foxx sisler mccovey greenberg frank thomas projected sorry dick allen johnny mize eddie murray yes consistency had peak bill terry morgan robinson collins hornsby gehringer carew treated even though played sandberg bobby grich nap lajoie bill herman mazeroski tough call schmidt boggs baker brett mathews ron santo harland clift ken boyer buddy bell darrell evans wagner ripken banks yount john lloyd estimated arky vaughan barry larkin still peak lou boudreau ozzie smith joe sewell williams bonds raines henderson actually had peaks yastrzemski musial jackson ralph kiner simmons george foster willie stargell mantle cobb speaker mays dimaggio oscar charleston again estimated duke snider ken griffey personal assumption kirby puckett richie ashburn dale murphy strike season ruth aaron klein robinson ott roberto clemente tony gwynn dave parker reggie jackson harry heilmann jose canseco darryl strawberry josh gibson estimated mickey cochrane gary carter johnny bench roy campanella yogi berra bill dickey gabby hartnett elston howard ted simmons joe torre johnson grove koufax walsh mathewson alexander young gibson hubbell seaver clemens satchel paige estimated trout juan marichal mordecai brown joe wood dave steib jim palmer bob lemon fergie jenkins who cares hope there are some surprises here raines above muisial carter above bench ripken above banks bonds above mays check the numbers each player comparison the numbers the rest the players that year and you see that fairly close with this ranking system which primarily based total player rating for four consecutive years enjoy mike
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris sdcc ucsd edu demers ucsd edu david demers writes article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes the facts are that morris has shown that has what takes play winning club clemens hasn what does take play winning club have way knowing because cannot separate morris contribu tion from the rest the team there only one way determin ing best baseball and that looking the scoreboard the end the game each game determines which team the best that day the end the season the team that was the best the most often the best the division the playoffs determine the best the best but the point that the only decision making pro cess used determine the best the score the game and lates the teams not the individual players there method inherent baseball comparing individual performances and that how should because after all baseball team game say that one player better than another able say solutely that player team would have played better with player their lineup sheer speculation impossible ascertain you want select group statistics and claim that clemens has done better with those statistics criteria then fine but you have able prove that those statistics measure the individual contribution winning the because that the only measure best that has any meaning the context base ball until you can prove that clemens contributes cham pionship more than morris your evaluation clemens totally sub jective and mere opinion have yet see that any you can predict winner with any greater accuracy than jeanne dixon the fact that morris didn win any ballgames toronto did spite morris contribution this has been explained you exactly the jays won with morris pitching and boston wins with clemens pitching not saying that morris better than clemens saying that individual comparisons between players are totally meaningless and that anyone claiming that clemens better based his era has missed the point what baseball all about many many times and you are either too stupid too stubborn grasp you don have rude you are completely consumed the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy for you say that means that you have either missed the entire point argument you yourself have committed fallacy ignoratio elenchi not saying that morris better than clemens because has more rings although have tongue cheek claimed that the past saying that impossible isolate individual performance from that his team for the purpose comparing that individual performance with another individual per formance the stats are nice hobby and that about there new knowledge being produced when poster claims that morris better than clemens because has more rings the poster more nor less incorrect than the rest you baying hounds cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes don blame players like galarraga dawson and mcgee when they swing strike and put the ball play well problem but get pretty annoyed when they swing non strikes and make outs especially ball four the counts dave dave demers demers ucsd edu computer science engineering demers ucsd bitnet san diego ucsd demers jolla fax
rec.sport.baseball	jose canseco swing article ucdavis edu dale ucdavis edu gary man from villanueva huckabay writes certainly not very easy what use frame advance the tape and simply count the frames five times and try throw out any outliers not perfect but better than blow the head with large metal object you finally found use for that super slo and frame advance other than scrutinizing sorority babes heat congrats wish had films instead tapes preferably fps rather than but while like have ten million dollars and able eat anything want and never gain any weight either trust you have helluva time manipulating them besides you converted the film video you have all kinds artifacts because the difference frame rate unless you expert doing pulldown for laserdisc company something gary list the ten slowest bats baseball hey fair what about fettucine alfredo griffin the guy practically has pivot the bat around along with his body gary list how the hell can hit like that julio franco phil plantier darren daulton daulton doesn strike all that strange little bit quiet the plate but like franco gets the bat through the hitting zone level plane the first time watched julio franco didn think anyone could hit like that now marvel how easy makes look every time makes contact solid got good power all fields and rarely caught not ready for pitch wonder phil plantier had severe bout with hemorrhoids and had practice his swing while the throne sure looks like how bout one add your list travis fryman the guy plants his front foot and seems swing across his body generates lot power but keep thinking could generate even more could get better pivot out his hips gary list give dave kirsch kidneys have swing like that well they already spoken for several people but add robbie alomar name the list among others really like dean palmer swing for some twisted reason well pedro munoz swing that all for now looking derrick may tapes tonight along with troy neel that guy serious thought about may looks like they taught him turn the ball imho going fall love with his newfound power and start pulling off the ball the point that going see lots sinkers sliders low and away unless adjusts quickly and starts rifling doubles left and left center imho you going see good number weak grounders the right side the infield the next month dave hung like jim acker slider kirsch blue jays again kirsch staff umn edu new quotes out context not beat dead horse but been couple weeks this disappoints punishments discharges jackhammering stephen lawrence
rec.sport.baseball	hispanic all star team icop csa edu antonio pera writes hispanic magazine april had couple interesting articles about hispanic players including its hispanic all star team some the major points are npr morning edition aired report this morning hispanic latin american players mlb and how they have many the same problems faced black negro african american players when they first entered the league however although baseball has adjusted the presence black players many hispanic players still labor under the stereotype being fireballs hot blooded flashy the report also emphasised that despite the rantings word jessie jackson about baseballs discrimination against black players its upper echelons baseball has actually done much better black players than hispanic players another interesting point was the language barrier problem the reporter elaborated interview with ruben sierra which gave spanish spanish speaking newspaper reporter with the fact that there are maybe major baseball writers that speak spanish despite the fact that spanish one not the easiest languages learn easy that the author cormac mccarthy learned spanish age order research his book all the pretty horses yet few mlb organizations employ spanish speaking personel one the exceptions being the oakland another point nearly latin american players have some african blood yet most report that they never really felt black until playing ball the ironically enough the early presence latin american baseball players the major leagues that support the idea that baseball was integrated before the arrival jackie robinson many light black brown latin americans were incorporated into baseball did not know the cure for the disease images but believed the healing sandra vigil power words and stories vigil esca com until the end the world
rec.sport.baseball	braves giants article news duke edu fls keynes econ duke edu forrest smith writes cox should protested the game the second time the garbage got thrown his outfielders should also have protested the game the point where ron gant was assessed the second strike the ninth the grounds that cox was the field and time should have been called both protests would denied course the umpire judgement determines the garbage thing although think the game should called but that personal opinion doesn matter there time only when the ump says the second argument baseless dave
rec.sport.baseball	braves giants the situation with the giants bleachers case point for the need for commissioner this true but the main thing the commish selig needs suspend bobby cox you cannot allow team come out the ump the braves did usually rip umps but this case the players were dead wrong cox should for games had ever umped game where that happened have ejected every player that came out only cox and gant would have been spared and then cox would have gone the ensuing argument dave
rec.sport.baseball	hbp big cat article odin corp sgi com kubey sgi com ken kubey writes suppose foul ball machine like brett butler pretty valuable but rather watch and root for the lower obp guys who can actually hit the ball and rather watch and root for team that scores lots runs and wins games course rooting for the rockies and andres anyway but that for irrational hometown reaons also root for frank thomas david paschich
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes article apr newshub ariel yorku ariel yorku shawn luddington writes hey valentine don see boston with any world series rings their fingers yah damn morris now has three and probably the hall fame his future certainly didn earn his last one how many games did blow the world series all the ones started certainly did earn was valuable member the blue jay team not particularly the world series during the season was probably more valuable than say putting olerud out there pitch but yeah was valuable getting them there the postseason sucked dirty canal water through straw the jays won spite morris much more than because him therefore would have say toronto easily made the best signing yes definitely therefore morris better than clemens your definition better refers some measurement scale that has nothing with winning rings umm roger return with those halcyon days few postings ago where the poster valentine was replying used rings measure better the concept called context and you should really become familiar with someday the facts are that morris has shown that has what takes play winning club clemens hasn unless this transaltes clemens hasn gone into lou gorman office with large caliber handgun and refused come out until been traded the jays complete loss any possible meaning for you can about what clemens has done the past and claim that better than morris you want but the facts are that morris has shown that can win and clemens hasn what earth does this mean over their careers clemens has won the games started morris per year clemens has averaged nearly wins morris just under would you grant the proposition that preventing the other team from scoring increases your chances winning game then consider that clemens allows runs innings pitched morris allows nearly run more per nine innings fact jack morris has never his career had era for single year good clemens career era but forget the maynardverse there was obviously some mystical significance buckner missing that grounder had morris been the sox would have been routine groundout right whether not clemens better your standard measurement totally meaningless the object the game not compile high figures statistics that you have chosen feel are important the object the game contribute victories but this has been patiently explained you many many times and you are either too stupid too stubborn grasp speaking stupid has been patiently and not patiently explained you many times that attributing greatness players based the accomplishments their teams makes about much sense claiming that racecar has the most attractive paint job because won the race your continued failure not only understand but even intelligently reply any the arguments presented leads the conclusion that you must have spent few too many games goal without mask don give that shit boston had alomar olerud henke and ward while toronto had rivera jack clark jeff reardon things would have looked little different last fall give credit where credit due this lavishing praise morris makes sick yes and the dog would have caught the rabbit too forget about what didn happen and open your eyes for once and look out there and see what really happening forget about how morris shouldn have won with era over when morris pitched last year the jays won stop crying about and get with life one crying the jays won and team they certainly deserved win least the east they performed well two short series and won the world series and congratulate them for red sox fan hope they keep morris was happy when they picked stewart and elated when they traded for darrin jackson you see unless you believe some mystical link between morris and the offense you can hardly help but believe that the man was credited with many wins last year because got lucky luck runs out just like did when pitched odd more innings than gave exactly one earned run more than and went seriously roger really like hear your explanation the difference between the morris and the morris which one was better pitcher and why did morris somehow learn how win the intervening ten years then why did with minnesota with era over half run lower than mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com don humble you not that great
rec.sport.baseball	jack morris maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes sure does and all depends the definition that you use for better yours based what could have been and mine based what really happened well actually most ours based what really happened and yours based some fantasy how happened but that understand you have hockey background stats like plus minus make rbi look good viola fault that boston had offense because morris that the blue jays had such strong offense don tell that morris has this magical ability cause the offensive players score more runs this the perfect example your problem you are isolating viola contribution from the rest the team efforts you can only this you can say for sure what the team would have done without viola only then can you compare but you cannot know how the team would have done without viola your analysis fallacious how about straigh answer then here very simele question which sure fair number are very interesed the answer please answer yes roger can pitcher cause the offensive players his team score more runs only please for anyone else following along well known and demonstrable fact that team win loss record closely related the number runs the team scores and the number the team allows not definite hard and fast function but there definitely correlation fact rule thumb teams and both score runs and team allows runs for every runs fewer than that team allows will win another game for instance look the toronto blue jays find that they scored runs and allowed which morris allowed all other things being equal frank viola with his era had replaced jack morris for the innings morris threw plausible since viola threw for boston the red jays would have allowed about fewer runs enough for more wins now that doesn take into account that viola pitched half his innings fenway which harder park pitch particularly for lefthander than skydome roger unless you really believe that pitcher can somehow affect the number runs his team scores could you enlighten the fallacy this analysis clearly would foolhardy claim that viola would necessarily have put had been the jay last year but that not the claim look what the actual performances were and evaluate viola better than morris the sense that had morris performed viola did his team would have been better off takes open mind really truly understand what happening out here the real world guys this true but not open that your brain falls out mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com computer you don open that exit hatch this moment shall zap straight off your major data banks and reprogram you with very large got that zaphod beeblebrox
rec.sport.baseball	far good the red sox uhura rochester edu wizard writes have posted two new postings the net since discovered how use and both times received redicule for predicting the red sox high third the east like hear why people dont think the sox can high third this year here are some observations well had you been bit less exuberant both the tone and substance your predictions the responses would probably have been bit more measured that may roger and frank are vintage form and the sox are rresponding them clemens always this form and viola isn really performing beyond what might reasonably have been expected how you know that the sox are responding them and not bumbry hobson most likely suspect new hitting coach mike easler certainly more likely give easler credit for vaughhn hot start than clemens viola greenwell hitting did before his injuries this was the optimistic scenario but not unreasonably hasn shown much power yet though dawson providing the leadership and some hitting they need from him how can you tell that dawson providing the leadership perhaps calderon perhaps clemens and viola maybe hobson finally showing those people skills was supposed have when they hired him maybe all myth and dawson has been hitting reasonably well but not well greenwell vaughn cooper fletcher russell finishing well three games why don look this one again say july fletcher hitting well leadoff hitter bit better than could reasonably have been expected but don forget that zupcic looked like wade boggs lite for about last year beware small sample sizes still fletcher hits well did last year great improvement over any sox leadoff hitter from last year aware that his career numbers seem indicate that puts good numbers long doesn have make more than year cooper hitting well think better then boggs the field and just good the plate ummm sorry can buy the the field part and think better the plate than the boggs but general cooper while pretty good hitter couldn carry boggs jockstrap with little luck could the fourth fifth best the martinez boggs ventura and palmer will all better the sox pitch like last year they have better pitchiong staff now and hit like they are far they coiuld run away with thee division but since think that their hitting and pitching may not the challenge running away with the division think that they win over and least third not second first see here where you make that quick left turn off into the aether plausible third not unlikely but phrases like could run away with the division are likely get you visit from the men the white coats not really clear that their staff better than last year russell does well darwin doesn the and hesketh doesn pitch just barely well enough avoid losing his spot the rotation they could better the other hand hesketh pitches miserably and they too stupid move him the pen and bring conroy somebody fossas continues pitch dismally but they keep giving him innings becasue lefty and russell explodes they could pretty bad mike jones aix high end development mjones donald aix kingston ibm com god comedian playing audience that afraid laugh mark twain
rec.sport.baseball	box scores was wondering anyone types the box scores each day college and not able get them till the weekend would thankful someone could mail the twins box scores every often also looking for twins schedule kesslerm columbia dsu edu
rec.sport.baseball	phillies sign mark davis had heard the rumors about cin hou and all being interested mark davis doesn surprise that team had give something and cash actually get him lynch mob anyone else draft this guy really did and got loud cry when will you ever give this guy
rec.sport.baseball	rockies spoon feed game mets just does bichette look totally lost the outfield misplayed martinez fly out into double against the expos misplayed alou single into triple alou tagged out after over sliding the bag and now misplays another out into run triple add his wonderful batting average and have one heck player don boell
rec.sport.baseball	rockies two more errors more walks name pos rbi avg boston galarraga tatum cole young hayes murphy bichette clark girardi castilla benavides young pitchers totals name era wayne aldred smith ashby neid parrett blair henry ruffin reed holmes totals
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu brian landmann writes later the ninth inning with the bases loaded and two outs puts lankford hitter with power pinch runner and uses luis alicea hitter with power pinch hitter what the hell thinking didn alicea get hit though see all the ballyard braves chop chop michael mule michael andre mule georgia institute technology atlanta georgia uucp decvax hplabs ncar purdue rutgers gatech prism internet prism gatech edu
rec.sport.baseball	wfan article knd news udel edu philly ravel udel edu robert hite writes from philly ravel udel edu robert hite subject wfan date thu apr gmt article apr virginia edu jja virginia edu writes does any one out there listen wfan for those you who not know what talking about all sports radio staion new york clear night the signal reaches and down the east coast particular want know how len berman and mike lupica show school virginia can listen when there are during the day just wondering the fan okay sports radio station but doesn come close the ultimate sports radio wip philadelphia the signal might not powerful but then again only stations new york feel obligated pollute everyone else airwaves with bunch hoodlum mets fans complaining hours day wip took two your best sports jockeys too jody macdonald and steve fredericks wip rockin with sports talk from till midnight check out anytime your within few hours philadelphia not mistaken wip has the highest sports talk ratings the nation from dallas and you have alot nerve saying that wfan has bunch hoodlum mets fans during the football season the local cowboy station here had the wip several times for simultanious broadcasts have never heard bigger bunch low intellect bed wetting obnoxious woofing cranial deformed assholes entire life the the average eagles fan must the range best and they have been known big droolers please flames let see works for bob kevin kerr kkerr mkcase dseg com member since yankees dolphins strolling through cyberspace sniffing the electric wind
rec.sport.baseball	phils east not weak that very true live richmond home the aaa richmond braves and they have this guy ryan klesko who hit home last year now that doesn sound like whole lot but the way the diamond built home runs are rarity fact ron gant brian hunter and david justice all proved they could hit richmond when they were sent the majors they never came back you can hit richmond you can hit anywhere far after beating scranton phillies the first game the best team aaa history has been rather underwhelming too many expectations guess
rec.sport.baseball	fenway gif article umassd edu acsddc smucs umassd edu writes was wondering anyone had any kind fenway park gif would appreciate someone could send one thanks advance dan too and any yankee stadium gifs well please thanx advance mike feszczyszyn
rec.sport.baseball	rbi was notes jays indians article apr news acns nwu edu edo casbah acns nwu edu edward ouellette writes too rbi are worthless stat course stolen bases because sometimes runners are front player that would otherwise run and course pitchers pitch differently with different people different bases batting average slugging and obp out too hmmm guess homers would not count then either point rbi might not perfect stat but nothing and stat lack can tell there are clutch hitters maybe stat can tell either but some people are just know but why would you want use rbi rbi attempt measure some combination clutch hitting and power hitting you believe clutch hitting then look how the guy hit with risp you want see how good slugger then look his slugging average terms evaluating players rbi totals are better than nothing but why use them when many better stats are out there david frohardt lane dfl math wayne edu tigers lions pistons red wings and wolverines
rec.sport.baseball	mcrae torre the worst manager scott mccall com scott davis writes news was doing report that they said that mcrae really batting coach and not manager but for some reason took the job whatever the reason the royals need new manager now while too late and have jesse jackson picket the stadium tim evans pont nemours tkevans eplrx dupont com experimental station box evanstk esvax wilmington delaware
rec.sport.baseball	royals randall informix com randall rhea writes the royals are darkness they are the void our time when they play shame descends upon the land like cold front from canada they are humiliation all who have lived and all who shall ever live they are utterly and completely doomed other than that guess they you must not old enough remember the tim evans pont nemours tkevans eplrx dupont com experimental station box evanstk esvax wilmington delaware
rec.sport.baseball	stats looking for source american league baseball stats for individual players the same format printed newspapers not want provide list players and get back nice printed reports for week does anyone know such statistics availability and idea the cost canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.sport.baseball	proposed catcher sub rule the red sox usually have catchers don think they have backup now but they used use randy kutcher backup catcher well middle infielder and outfielder you don need good catcher just competent one you can afford lose little catching ability and pick player who can use elsewhere the field john carr jfc athena mit edu
rec.sport.baseball	millitello update article apr alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says uhhhh think spelled name correctly sam millitello uhhhh there are only three bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	yankees win home opener article apr alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says telling you sam three call mom and ask bob vesterman
rec.sport.baseball	phillies sweep reds awful reds report article ialu usenet ucs indiana edu rstimets silver ucs indiana edu robert and stimets writes actually not sure that philly won but they were ahead the bottom the eighth was going post the box score but since cinci was playing criminally bad the pub was had turn the game off here what cincinnati had seven hits all singles the end the eighth this makes six games with exactly one extra base hit cincinnati was with runners scoring position now team going completely without power they absolutely have hit clutch situations cincinnati starter tom browning pitched innings giving runs and its while striking out was surely the loser tonight reds starters while supposedly solid have won only one game this year course the reds have only won two clean batter sabo went besides yesterday homer sucked the plate dibble may not actually return friday this may not mean anything since cinci may not find themselves save situation for while speaking which the reds have exactly one lead this week for one and half innings after chris dinger tuesday manager tony perez says the reds are just not swinging the bat well right now good call doggie well there big difference between just not swinging the bat well and what the reds are doing the plate uuuggghhhh reds fan the verge nervous breakdown mike why that the prognosis kevin mitchell out days matter what day you read gary burbank told you before and tell you again the strong survive and the weak disappear not intend disappear jimmy hoffa mtissand magnus acs ohio state edu cynically yours rstimets
rec.sport.baseball	wfan hope that this comes off somewhat unbiased assesment wfan and wip school philadelphia and listen both stations consistant basis now that the fan has mike lupica from noon they have person who can get the big name guests for interviews and not just local importance did have dave cheketts and fred wilpon his show but had bob costas and magic johnson too now here are opinions the two stations competing talent morning show opinion think imus much better than bruno cataldi and morganti even though would feel different morganti had better crew people work with wip tries copy imus but make all sports theme terms sports imus lacks the blanketing the airwaves but interjects humor and politics into his show noon think chuck cooperstein and lupica are equal their abilities host radio show but think chuck has the advantage over lupica terms dealing with the caller who asking about who the local team going draft the sixth round lupica and the other hosts fan get better interview guests but heard the wip say that they were not interested interviews with celebrities unless was major story would consider this even because they are two different styles host noon this point would have give big advantage jody mcdonald over len berman because lenny has only been for couple weeks just think has the ability transcend the homer mentality the philadelphia fan base this most evident when the iggles philadelphia spelling play the cowboys because huge dallas fan where else can you have people call and predict score without the egging the hosts wip morning guys agree that was great the fan weekend overnight and miss hearing him over the current crop rotating hosts feel that the best sportstalk host either station good margin you are and you can get wip does fill the weekends sometimes this the time when goes against francesa and russo fatso and froot loops and become the most divided loyalties mike and the dog are very entertaining but they often hour without calls even minutes without talking about sports matd get great guests and that the basis for their show like the debate another plus the appearances mike and chris imus the morning which are often hilarious matd against fredericks and missanelli like mike missanelli but just can stomach steve fredericks know that came from philly originally but when was the fan was homer much philly homer now don listen wip much after unless there game that night but you will see later for the reason that why give the advantage fan midnight are wip until and then the man who makes eli that calls matd all the time seem like novice charges racism cobb this man grating nerves that listen him for few minutes nuts know that biased but listen his show fan there usually game knicks rangers mets jets john basketball the game the west coast then usually howie rose course think dead air would better than cobb wip but wip does air sixers and flyers games during the season this the sports station why did they lose the iggles wysp home howard stern phil during the summer all talk wip overall would have give the advantage wfan with the exception and where even and where wip has the advantage rich you read the hat now see the movie imus the morning blurb you blurb seinfeld
rec.sport.baseball	question about candlestick have tickets for the giants and was wondering anybody familiar with the stadium could tell where section the lower level located please mail the response thanks rich you read the hat now see the movie imus the morning blurb you blurb seinfeld
rec.sport.baseball	astros for real article apr ccsvax sfasu edu millerwl ccsvax sfasu edu writes who thinks the astros are going places they currently first place they the road agree lumberjack except that they they are going places san diego los angeles san francisco cincinnati denver atlanta miami philadelphia new york montreal pittsburgh chicago louis and points between but they home just not used overly enthusiastic houston fan really shouldn discourage hang there lumberjack but get ahold that shift key will obbase apparently the new owner drayton mclain doesn particularly like excuses item our paper the austin american statesman you read here was somewhere else first said that wouldn take injuries excuse for losing because that possibility should have been accounted for don want owner that keep everybody edge never gotten that feeling about him but who knows does anybody down there the houston area have feel for how meddling owner mclain going marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin disclaimer the content this posting independent official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc ausvmq ibm
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages third base dale stephenson steph uiuc edu wrote jjrj uiuc edu steph uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players the reports stats are courtesy sherri nichols players are listed descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen leius scott looks good too bad moving short pagliarulo mike this interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year anybody part that may his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear have rotten infield was with the twins and judging leius and gaetti the metrodome may good place play third gaetti gary apologies don know what talking about but twins fan like think they have good players any park not sure remember completely not but think gaetti played with the twins for the world series and again note that his lowest the believe the next least the last two were played with the angels lots factors make player excell hate when many use the dome may not ideal but nice comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when snowing and raining craig sure the company for which work does not have all the same opinions that
rec.sport.baseball	phils east not weak apr guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes love how all these people are blaming the phillies success weak division why don look the record the teams each division read inter divisional play see that the east really kicking the shit out the west know early but that all have atlanta just strong with their cincinnati coming off sweep veteran stadium philadelphia and houston was swept first three games the phillies the astrodome that western division friends shows that the three best teams your division may not strong you think you may posting this way too early and eating your words mid season mon the phillies haven proved anything yet atlanta was similar the phils years ago they sucked they started having good year but didn get any respect until they actually won the division which how should until the phils least have good year not just good weeks they won get any respect either btw atlanta actually compliment how good the braves really are their record can you imagine the phils record they were batting hahahaha and atlanta hitting will improve dramatically not braves fan just defending good team orin bradley phils all the way braves hit like aaa club reds need marge bob really jester disguise
rec.sport.baseball	red sox lead after article zra ulowell ulowell edu stwombly ulowell edu steve twombly writes the boston red sox lead the royals after innings the sox are the only undefeated team the east after days jump the lake you non believers steve have read this net the last few days continually amazed the pronouncements baseball prowess many individuals especially when comes down saying that the bosox haven prayer long time red sox fan will simply say the impossible dream year for those you with short memories short lives both red sox fan continually the subject abuse and criticism from those who only follow the hot team this statement supported based the increased number brave woofers out the net true fan team any team will follow that team through the good years well the lean years and amply rewarded when the time right yeah what buckner let roller through his legs who cares clemens told cooley piss rope and promptly earned quick shower the fact they were one the best teams the league those years and the fans supported them now that appears that they are lean times the number detracters come from all over what let them play and will see what happens come september the red sox may not that good but they are certainly not that bad either and they have chance win the world series after all remember the mets who would have given them chance even make that far let alone beat baltimore let face baseball wonderful game and far more unpredictable than football and basketball because this one can never say with absolute certainity what the outcome will over the course games joec godot cyprs rain com warning elvis impersonating can hazardous joec ursula pdx edu your health sure won help your reputation bike therefore red sox celtics seahawks sonics
rec.sport.baseball	rbi risp and slg off and over the last several months threads about rbis and related topics have gotten thinking about how well can predict player rbis using information about his overall performance and the number runners scoring position risp that bats with the brock model bill james calculated predicted rbis rbi total bases home runs this completely ignores the context which was all that brock could since context was unknown thought take that idea starting point and look how good fit the data you get comparing rbi home runs slg risp started with team data using data from the elias that picked over the years when could afford them and could stomach the thought increasing elias profits that gave the years and don have team rbis for could add that year you run simple least squares fit the data you get rbi home runs slg risp the correlation between the lhs and the rhs which significant ridiculously high level feel like the fit good the team level started move the player level and have looked players will clark ozzie smith joe carter and don mattingly hope add quite few more during copious free time this year doesn too badly except the equation underpredicts the low hitter smith which may fault the model could just ozzie the results rbi years actual predicted carter clark matt smith think can make case and hope make stronger that rbis can predicted simply from knowing how player slugs overall and how many men are scoring position when comes more later harold harold brooks hbrooks uiatma atmos uiuc edu national severe storms laboratory norman used work for brewery too but didn drink the job bavasi dal maxvill view that florida can win the east
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame article mssc gqe netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes kingman fan just thought point out that the only player history have five three games joe carter has four eddie murray three mccovey and gehrig also three ruth mays foxx and dawson two each didn mike schmidt also this least three times can remember twice wrigley field alone did the same day kong did shootout and swatted four there one day april the month set the april record with anybody remember any this was just kid
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players think you can add former first baseman mike epstein relation the list ari
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for fri apr mlb standings and scores for friday april including yesterday games national west won lost pct last streak home road san francisco giants won houston astros lost atlanta braves lost colorado rockies won los angeles dodgers lost san diego padres lost cincinnati reds lost national east philadelphia phillies won pittsburgh pirates won louis cardinals won new york mets lost chicago cubs won montreal expos won florida marlins won american west won lost pct last streak home road texas rangers lost california angels won chicago white sox won minnesota twins lost oakland athletics lost seattle mariners lost kansas city royals won american east boston red sox won toronto blue jays won new york yankees lost detroit tigers won cleveland indians lost milwaukee brewers lost baltimore orioles won yesterday scores idle teams listed alphabetical order national league american league houston astros seattle mariners montreal expos toronto blue jays new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates kansas city royals san diego padres new york yankees louis cardinals cleveland indians los angeles dodgers boston red sox atlanta braves california angels ppd san francisco giants milwaukee brewers rain chicago cubs idle baltimore orioles idle cincinnati reds idle chicago white sox idle florida marlins idle minnesota twins idle philadelphia philliesidle texas rangers idle joseph hernandez rams lakers jtchern ocf berkeley edu kings dodgers raiders jtcent soda berkeley edu angels clippers
rec.sport.baseball	cards sweep mets lose life good just few lines about favorite team sweeping the dodgers one least favorite sweet also the mets other least favorite team loss the rockies made this this great day and great start the weekend the cardinals are the espn tonight big lee smith having great start and the cardinals seem hitting the clutch even though they have had few games with lots hits and not many runs hopefully with the coaches stress situational hitting spring training the runners lob will lower this year probably due the high strikeout numbers jose and lankford and zeile off year don know why all the fuss about the fillies the media and all the filly fans forget who right behind them the standings give the wild thing week two before starts blowing some games and see who first then believe the cardinal pitching staff more complete than the filly staff and that will make the difference side note few years ago comment was made some baseball player manager about the dodger defense was asked where hit the ball against the dodgers and replied fair remember being the they said section sports illustrated would like know who said and what issue was redbirds gary wieman
rec.sport.baseball	tiger stadium gif hate rude but screw the seating chart post the stadium instead the logistician reigns supreme blue tigers pistons lions red wings ching wpi wpi edu
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes article rudyc fxc deu netcom com rudy netcom com rudy wade writes article apr csd newshost stanford edu nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes guess which line which obp slg the walks should give away obp general somewhat more valuable than slugging and alomar edge obp was quite bit larger than baerga edge slugging sdcn but what more valuable hits more doubles more hrs more triples and bbs let not forget the extra sbs how many alomar had baerga had don forget the more outs baerga had his gidp balances out his and had one more sacrifice than alomar replacement level second baseman could have had hits walks and couple xbh for the additional outs baerga had triple little different than home run talking exchanging almost walks for six seven home runs and four doubles would say the almost walks are more valuable also alomar got far greater boost from his home park than baerga did from his and six seven home runs hmm you wanted pick second baseman play toronto you take alomar anywhere else and you probably take baerga mike disclaimer these opiini damn exit quitbye ctrlaltdel logout save quit quit zzzzzz man help helpquit man help help exit quit ctrlshftdel hey what does stop
rec.sport.baseball	mlb standings and scores for fri apr article qmj agate berkeley edu jtchern ocf berkeley edu joseph hernandez writes houston astros seattle mariners montreal expos toronto blue jays new york mets oakland athletics colorado rockies detroit tigers pittsburgh pirates kansas city royals san diego padres new york yankees louis cardinals cleveland indians los angeles dodgers boston red sox atlanta braves california angels ppd san francisco giants milwaukee brewers rain this leads believe that not really rabbitball year and that just had rash high scoring games bet this one day worth games pulled everything back close average interesting because the other day all but three games had ten more runs scored and yesterday game had more than nine ted frank thf kimbark uchicago edu sorry the card says moops the law school standard disclaimers
rec.sport.baseball	young catchers article qlnkninn aludra usc edu sheehan aludra usc edu joseph sheehan writes most the points you made about lopez berryhill olson have been made others and realizing that lopez must the second coming frank thomas have relented and praised the unmistakeable wisdom his supporters nope they baseball management possible the most short sighted collection people the nation you not believe this goes mark you think frank thomas needed those three months aaa see this essentially what everyone was doing comparing lopez one the best players the game really looking forward seeing this can miss superstar now for thomas remember being advocate his being brought even though was only can remember but who did the sox have first calderon martinez kittle the spot was there the talent was there sure say for not convinced that lopez anywhere near talented thomas was after his season and not convinced that olson berryhill are nearly bad kittle martinez were btw don think thomas was hurt those three months cal eldred wasn really better than ricky bones last year well can compare our guy one the best the game let compare our decision one the most boneshead right cal eldred was when came with full season aaa and longer minor league career frankly don know why didn make the club bones year younger with lousy prior history and just watching him makes think that missed career big league pitcher one repeat one laughed louder than did the sheffield trade though guess mieske has future take back mcilvaine may have laughed louder you mostly polite make defensible flawed cases have wit and have the past admitted being wrong that does qualify you make sdcn out you yet gee shucks thanks guy except missed the part where sdcn admit they wrong the beastmaster mark singer mss netcom com
rec.sport.baseball	early bbddd returns article apr news brandeis edu pip brandeis edu writes just curious anyone has started standout early the season the ddd this year the tater that jack morris served griffey the younger his first bat this year went feet remember right have check scorecard home think that the longest far the kingdome through the first stand five games there weak showing despite some promising taterball candidates ben mcdonald rich delucia and the rest the mariner bullpen making appearances anyone have the tape measure value for omar vizquel grand slam the skydome jeff brown big enchilada the brown bag lunches astronomy dept jbrown washington edu washington jbrown phast phys washington edu
rec.sport.baseball	tigers all can say the logistician reigns supreme blue tigers pistons lions red wings ching wpi wpi edu
rec.sport.baseball	notes jays indians series article ncoast org actuary ncoast org steven goldman writes who will start this year all star game for the probably alomar not put him down great player but helps have all the recognition had plus play city which likely pour the votes like alomar but like differ with your opinion about city which likely pour the votes attended many games last year during the balloting know that great number the attendees did not fill out their ballots but left them beer soaked and torn the floor the stands toronto gets more and less votes than any other city for the all star game unfortunately this not one time thing attended games during the last four seasons and has happened every time the apathetic attitude all star ballots really offends ljs
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla bobby bonilla supposedly use the word faggot when got mad that author the clubhouse should banned from baseball for year like schott
rec.sport.baseball	torre the worst manager dak vma smsu edu said hal mcrae the worst manager baseball never seen guy who can waste talent like can one the best raw talent staffs the league and still finding way lose surprised makes through the next weeks unless drastic improvement made confused how hal mcrae fault that can win with team whose best offensive player phil hiatt mean let real kansas city will have get outstanding years from their entire staff just end near they have less offense than any other team baseball even you count the expansion teams david tate dtate pitt edu greetings sir with bat not quick member iie orsa tims sabr hands not soft eye not discerning and denver they call you slugger the big catullus galarraga and compare you own mattingly
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir article blue cis pitt edu traven pitt edu neal traven writes one the chapters palmer and thorn hidden game titled pitching baseball implying that fielding how they determine that beats been long long time since read this was opinion the stupidest thing the hidden game the argument was defense runs allowed the game unearned runs amount the runs allowed earned runs since unearned runs are the result fielding not pitching and earned runs are the product pitching not fielding fielding defense and pitching defense caombining with pitching the game fielding pete usually sharper than that own feel that fielding the defense range call between fielding and pitching one also has separate offense into batting and baserunning with the split probably somewhere around and give baserunning little more credit than that maybe even give team roberto alomar and team john oleruds identical batting stats which wouldn that unreasonable and even you don let roberto steal single base they score lot more than the oleruds going first third more often offense gordon clay
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns have say the most impressive hrs ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives don boell
rec.sport.baseball	best sportwriters article news cso uiuc edu rkoffler cso uiuc edu bighelmet writes csc imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes since someone brought sports radio howabout sportswriting happen big fan jayson stark baseball writer for the philadelphia inquirer every tuesday writes week review column writes about unusual situations that occured during the week unusual stats has section called kinerisms the week which are stupid lines mets brodcaster ralph kiner every year has the lgtgah contest that stands for last guy get hit also writes for baseball america that column sort highlights week review you can check his column out sometime might make you laugh rob koffler isn stark that idiot who writes baseball america twice month writes who woulda thunk article which really the same piece every time who would have thought that buddy biancalana would have more home runs than the colorado rockies babe ruth omar vizquel and nolan ryan combined idiot the same guy you live day day and rkoffler cso uiuc edu dream about tomorrow don henley andrew
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish maybe john lowenstein lowenstein not jewish however there long list including hank greenberg moe berg rod carew convert the sherry brothers art shamsky and ron blomberg barry
rec.sport.baseball	phills pirates philly fan penna baseball fan anxious see the penna series anyone know when starts and where the first games will played this think always good baseball and the pirates are also off good start doc
rec.sport.baseball	world series stats does anybody else think that stats should become part player career stats why not
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players once jeopardy the category was jewish sports heros believe not the answer was this pitcher had four hitters with the dodgers the the contestant said who hank aaron alex trebek said something like don think hank aaron was pitcher david fry fry math harvard edu division applied sciences fry huma bitnet harvard university harvard huma fry cambridge
rec.sport.baseball	ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed fester island com mike fester writes say you could make good for them being about equal right now rated baerga higher actually mike finally objective source alomar great player but baerga nice see the objective source cited rather than dad bigger than your dad posts
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns two separate occasions saw dick allen back when was richie homer shea off the middle the black centerfield hitter background screen think both shots would have traveled feet jay
rec.sport.baseball	why spanky boone psc edu jon boone writes mon apr gmt apr mnemosyne edu greg spira gspira nyx edu wrote does anybody the pittsburgh area know why mike lavalliere was released last year kept saying that slaught should get the bulk the playing time that was clearly the better player this point but leyland insisted keeping pretty strict platoon and now released that doesn make any sense greg the story goes like this spanky too slow were quicker would still here but with slaught and tom prince they didn want lose prince order bring that pitcher slaught about good spanky and prince coming along nicely well question still hasn been answered spanky was bad enough release this year why did get much playing time last year yes know was part platoon and that why got more playing time than slaught but that doesn answer the question slaught was obviously better this year wasn this also obvious last year and shouldn have been taking away some spanky playing time against righties greg
rec.sport.baseball	when melido due back when are the yankees planning activating melido perez his days the are today but are they bringing him back this weekend thanks for any info
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns article hpcc corp com boell hpcc corp com donald boell writes have say the most impressive hrs ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives remember one hit circa wrigley field that went across the street dead center field and hit house the roof whiffed lot but when did connect watch out include std disclaimer dan
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article mssc fur netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes polish and jewish are not mutually exclusive didn mean offend anything just quoting stanky himself the subject remember one time last year was being interviewed espn and the interviewer can remember who asked stanky was jewish because the interviewer was jewish and wanted see more jewish ballplayers which stanky replied polish not jewish maybe that wasn the most thing for stanky say and maybe was little naive when posted think should just devote this subject finding actual jewish ballplayers myself jewish and the only ones ever knew until now were koufax greenberg and blomberg alan
rec.sport.baseball	infield fly rule jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes one last infield fly question that has always puzzled and hasn yet been addressed believe the rule also does not deal with this situation however the infield fly not caught what point can runner legally leave his base fear being doubled off for advancing too early the runner can leave his base any time the ball caught got tag isn caught doesn have tag all feeling lucky your runner second can sprint for glory soon the ball popped isn caught probably scored run probably headed for aaa the only effect the infield fly has make the batter out thereby removing the force the runners base all other rules apply you were standing second with first open and the ball popped tim shippert shippert cco caltech edu are going stick this damned quantum jumping then regret that ever had anything with quantum theory schrodinger
rec.sport.baseball	alomar baerga was hoping stay out this lyford frosty beverage writes yes baerga has lot flash but alomar was the better hitter last year batters slg obp rbi baerga alomar this fascinating you say that alomar was the better hitter last year and immediately follow that with numbers showing that baerga had better year the only category that see which shows advantage for alomar obp well obp the most important offensive statistic and big margin points obp worth considerably more than points slugging that being said still think baerga was very slightly better last year but think this close wash you likely find personally don care much for alomar defense don think nearly good people make him out and can turn the save his life comes across the bag improperly and his release slow considering the high leverage the this shortcoming can overlook the long term move alomar another position the jays could trade hot devon white for something alomar could hell the long run think rather have jeff kent and alomar than alomar white gary huckabay you think that loud enough hole movie rights well you having trouble hearing sir available thru happy turn for you didn ted frank know that many people your age liked king
rec.sport.baseball	darrrrrrrrryl article mssc kcru netcom com mss netcom com mark singer writes the media beating the incident dodger stadium wednesday death but haven seen anything rsb yet gerald perry the cardinals pinch hit the eighth inning with two and his club down run stroked line drive into the right field corner the ball cleared the three foot high fence and went into the crowd darryl racing over from right center got the spot time reach his glove over the short fence but missed the ball fan sitting the front row wearing mitt reached and caught the ball home run now seen the replay several times and have concluded that darryl missed the ball and that the fan glove was essentially behind darryl several dodger fans with seats the immediate vicinity have claimed that the fan unquestionably interfered with strawberry what cannot disputed however that the fan who caught the ball never took his eye off was oblivious where the fielder was playing was also quite exuberant soon realized had made the catch stuff about daryl and tommy and everyone blaming fan for the loss deleted saw the replay several times too question about daryl missed the ball then the fan caught daryl tall that had the first shot the ball daryl just whining again think shows lack class when tommy daryl and the dodgers blame single fan for losing the game what about the pitcher who threw the gopher ball what about the pitchers that gave runs that point sorry tommy were game and daryl was feet inches tall then maybe just maybe you have argument
rec.sport.baseball	bonds maddux been following the giants closely over the off season newspapers notesgroup etc but had first close and personal last night the stick after watching giants hitters struggle last year barry swing was very impressive very quick and his swing seems effortless even compared clark particularly clark late was interesting see bonds hit maddux well not sure barry was after revenge against the braves what but stroked three very pretty hits for rbi the giants team are doing lot surprising things this year addition bonds there has been some good pitching and some hitters seem swinging much better clayton defense has been superb mcgee seems like leading off this year manwaring driving the ball forth hope continues think they need continue well into june before people are really sold that they are for real particularly the pitching for myself think the fresh start magowan baker etc has really wiped out lot negatives from the last few years and will real factor helping them significantly improve over last year joe loos loos cup com
rec.sport.baseball	yankee bullpen help buck showalter just can win bob wickman pitching the game his life through eight innings yanks lead buck decides let the kid try and get his first complete game wickman manages get two outs but between four funs score and all sudden and wickman just can get the third out buck goes the bullpen and farr gets out the first guy faces last night jimmy key pitching another long string games his life this guy just keeps getting better through eight innings yanks lead this time buck thinks don want repeat that near fiasco with wickman give bullpen some work steve howe whose era was coming into the game left with didn too good then farr comes gives two run homer and the royals win what going this already the third fourth time this year that the bullpen has blown lead farr howe have done twice together monteleone done once and think even habyan did once what the deal finally have terrific starting pitching all sudden our bullpen turns shit what buck gonna and what george gonna this continues happen alan
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players bilinsky
rec.sport.baseball	infield fly rule jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes one last infield fly question that has always puzzled and hasn yet been addressed believe the rule also does not deal with this situation infield fly declared and the ball caught runners can tag and advance their own risk any fly ball however the infield fly not caught what point can runner legally leave his base fear being doubled off for advancing too early when the ball hits the ground when fielder first touches the ball after hits the ground enlightenment would appreciated not sure understand this question when the rule invoked the batter automatically out this relieves the runners from being forced advance the next base the ball not caught other than that isn just the same any situation which runner base not forced the next base dropped fly ball that the ball caught can tag and run decide stay and the ball dropped can have left the base any time eric smith erics netcom com erics infoserv com
rec.sport.baseball	astros are back article apr rosie edu rosie edu schwam david writes article hhwv cvk austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc stephenson writes astros relief corps holding together doug jones keeps his changeup effective and xavier hernandez can effective then passable there reasonable left handed help and the middle relief iffy tom edens was expected take over the joe boever setup man role but been injured and was expansion team acquisition anyway houston thought that boever would demand too much money they let him doug jones can lose his touch went from cleveland all star closer the minors pretty short span from what understand boever and murphy were considered expendable the club houston felt that their positions could filled number players art doug jones the key houston success must have another great year for houston challenge the west argument all with murphy scared the hell out when came last year the other hand the club though enough boever put him into awful lot games may have led the league appearances did least some point seemed very viable setup guy but guess that not considered that crucial the club can just remember two years ago well though the unsuspected strength the lower part the order has saved the club far biggio and finley just aren doing their job getting base instead filling his role rbi man bagwell has had assume biggio and finley job biggio concerns since usually starts the season very strong not that concerned those guys have been relatively consistent over the years and they have good reasons decline injuries not old expect them come through just fine those guys that have not been consistently good that are the worrisome part even they are coming through right now side note are you all concerned with the rumors concerning next year uniform there talk that their road uniform will blech traditional grey with the word houston written across the chest not mistaken their home uniforms may totally eliminate the color orange shiver mclane favorite color red this sounds like their old road unis pretty dull buttons pullovers check through uniform book see they always had some orange really upset the current unforms are dull and the new ones sound horrible like see the uniform the mid return they may not have been pretty but houston had established long precident wearing the ugliest uniforms baseball and liked well see got astros pullover shirt with the astros stripes across the shoulders and have trouble making myself wear public can see why they might want that change gee they eliminate the orange will they reupholster the seats the astros stripes section what used the gold and yellow levels don know those numbers they use now saw pinstripe version astros cap and actually thought looked good marc stephenson ibm aws advanced workstations systems austin disclaimer the content this posting independent official ibm position internet marc austin ibm com vnet marc ausvmq ibm
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed majors article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu russell earnest writes article apr holos uucp lbr holos uucp len reed writes article tss com hanson tss com hanson loo writes didn bob horner straight from arizona state univ the atlanta braves remember had one great month hitting dingers and then the next heard was japan month well did have short career compared what one might have expected for such highly touted prospect due being injury prone overweight and having work ethic but certainly did not suffer from being rushed the bigs sorry len this exactly how suffered from being rushed the bigs being overweight and having work ethic leading being injury prone with nothing loose might have been corrected richmond did you intend smiley after your comment remember correctly which always doubt horner signing with the braves was contingent starting atlanta think could have gone back arizona for one more year hadn signed anyhow the braves did try send him richmond once lead week long walkout methinks horner had work ethic before was drafted and minor league play wouldn have helped but his raw talent would have gotten him into the and did keep him there for while until started falling his wrists eric too lazy update his sig roush
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players weiss played second for the white sox the early sixties chiefly back don buford good glove hit some spunk which reminds they still serve kosher hot dogs the new comiskey mark bernstein eastgate systems inc main street watertown usa voice usa eastgate world std com compuserve applelink eastgate
rec.sport.baseball	jewish broadcasters was jewish baseball players for that matter how many gentleman the press box have been jewish the only jewish sportscaster that comes mind steve williams who had phillies show kyw philadelphia the mark bernstein eastgate systems inc main street watertown usa voice usa eastgate world std com compuserve applelink eastgate
rec.sport.baseball	candlestick park experience long been giants season ticket holder for years and never really complained about the old ballyard place sure been cold the food lines were long and the hired hands were surly but this was all part the giants mystique thought went tuesday game giants over the marlins and the stick was much different place nothing short dome will eliminate the wind but everything lot better the lines are lot shorter the bathrooms are clean and have running water and the hired hands were very polite the new foghorn lights and blows after each homerun and the wooden fence are very nice are the new bleachers the bleachers start right the top the fence and give great view and they got beer stands the bottome the bleachers the only complaint that the electronic old fashioned scoreboard looks electronic could better these things should have been done long time ago but took real businessman safeway president peter magowan figure out just like used tell his checkers the customers don come back don need many checkers this isn knock bob lurie was competent businessman but didn deal much with the general public give example how the level service has changed the onion dispenser jammed was using attendant came over apoligized for the problem and proceeded fix the machine after was done cleaned the machine and said was glad able help the old days there was attendant and the folks the concession stands would say the stand feet away they might able help all all was fun day craig eid mail address craige hpsad sad com
rec.sport.baseball	when melido due back article nittmo camelot nittmo camelot bradley edu christopher taylor writes when are the yankees planning activating melido perez his days the are today but are they bringing him back this weekend thanks for any info the chicago tribune pitching form has perez pitching today but given the way that buck changes his rotation often that could just the work confused stat page editor adam midway uchicago edu aka mercutio obligatory yankees for baseball season woodlawn ave apt chicago
rec.sport.baseball	kansas city mail contact would the person who running the mail list for kansas city royals please mail details regarding mailing list you the list and know the info please send info well please mail don have time always read this group john john carson mindlink john carson concepts
rec.sport.baseball	ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed article andy bgsu edu klopfens andy bgsu edu bruce klopfenstein writes fester island com mike fester writes say you could make good for them being about equal right now rated baerga higher actually finally objective source alomar great player but baerga nice see the objective source cited rather than dad bigger than your dad posts know you have this fucked idea that anybody who prefers alomar baerga must jay lover and indian hater sorry you got that one wrong hate the jays and don care one way the other about the indians but objectively alomar had the better offensive year last year have pick him you admit reliable objective source then you will note that they rated alomar the better offensive player chosing baerga over alomar only because his defense that joke alomar might not gold glover but certainly worse than baerga defensively valentine
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages third base article srgenprp com craigs srgenprp com craig stelter writes gaetti gary apologies don know what talking about but twins fan like think they have good players any park not sure remember completely not but think gaetti played with the twins for the world series and again note that his lowest the believe the next least the last two were played with the angels lots factors make player excell hate when many use the dome may not ideal but nice comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when snowing and raining craig sure the company for which work does not have all the same opinions that the event that had the most impact gaetti career was his leg injury his performance dropped radically from was still with the twins and but you look his stats both offensive and defensive never has come back his pre injury level brendan
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns haven been following the previous but there are two that saw live that would have there where there rick monday bury the expos the championship was hit off steve rogers who rhp and primarily starter why was used reliever when the spos had reardon and billlee warming the bullpen considering monday couldn touch lhp lee would have been safe bet wasn even doing any drugs that time told and around others recent venture into montreal the blast wasn the important aspect was the timing seventh game tie game and the top the the expos almost came back though mike schmidt hit one that killed the expos close yet far and strawberry killed pitch the second day the season couple years ago went off the technical ring the big almost left the stadium that was hit hard corelmark
rec.sport.baseball	 article dxqp hoo news rich bnr bratt crchh nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes how about game length don know this valid statement not but games sure seem last lot longer make sure take the sutcliff fisk ect factor into account russ anderson disclaimer any statements are own and not reflect upon employer anyone else twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
rec.sport.baseball	defensive averages third base srgenprp com craigs srgenprp com craig stelter writes dale stephenson steph uiuc edu wrote jjrj uiuc edu steph uiuc edu dale stephenson writes compiled from the last five defensive average reports here are the career das for the individual players the reports stats are courtesy sherri nichols players are listed descending order and some comments with some players deleted third basemen leius scott looks good too bad moving short pagliarulo mike this interesting line his figure was slightly below average his was pathetic and his was the next best year anybody part that may his mobility was with the yankees was with the padres who appear have rotten infield was with the twins and judging leius and gaetti the metrodome may good place play third gaetti gary apologies don know what talking about but twins fan like think they have good players any park not sure remember completely not but think gaetti played with the twins for the world series and again note that his lowest the believe the next least the last two were played with the angels actually gaetti first year with california was his wasn out line with his career averages and his was actually below average but check out the last three years the metrodome gaetti avg pags leius avg leius avg for the last three years the highest das either league have been posted minnesota players three different ones including one pags who was mediocre horrible elsewhere that doesn prove park effect work any more than san diego horrible infield numbers prove park effect work but looks like strong possibility lots factors make player excell hate when many use the dome may not ideal but nice comfortably enjoy baseball and football even when snowing and raining and might even nice play thrid base dale stephenson steph uiuc edu baseball fanatic considered good look wise especially when not overburdened with information golden kimball
rec.sport.baseball	phills pirates article apr vfl paramax com edd gvlf gvl unisys com dougherty writes philly fan penna baseball fan anxious see the penna series anyone know when starts and where the first games will played this think always good baseball and the pirates are also off good start doc when did you say well let shell out here and run this handy dandy program mlb pit phi and the answer monday pittsburg philadelphia tuesday pittsburg philadelphia wednesday pittsburg philadelphia friday philadelphia pittsburg saturday philadelphia pittsburg sunday philadelphia pittsburg friday pittsburg philadelphia saturday pittsburg philadelphia sunday pittsburg philadelphia monday philadelphia pittsburg tuesday philadelphia pittsburg wednesday philadelphia pittsburg thursday philadelphia pittsburg this great little program its available ftp site near you unfortunatly don recall which one any schedule question you got answered with this little gem many thanks the author for providing this service
rec.sport.baseball	astros for real article austin ibm com marc yogi austin ibm com marc stephenson writes article apr ccsvax sfasu edu millerwl ccsvax sfasu edu writes who thinks the astros are going places they currently first place they the road agree lumberjack except that they they are going places san diego los angeles san francisco cincinnati denver atlanta miami philadelphia new york montreal pittsburgh chicago louis and points between but they home but they faced the phillies team that got off start just not used overly enthusiastic houston fan really shouldn discourage hang there lumberjack but get ahold that shift key will obbase apparently the new owner drayton mclain doesn particularly like excuses item our paper the austin american statesman you read here was somewhere else first said that wouldn take injuries excuse for losing because that possibility should have been accounted for don want owner that keep everybody edge never gotten that feeling about him but who knows does honest think the city houston loves the new owner has brought baseball back houston with key acquisitions players that were from the houston area and wanted play for the astros don think that too many people are fearful that mclane will meddle the team has already admitted that doesn know whole lot about baseball mclane businessman and doesn like excuses makes valid point that injuries shouldn excuse this club look the depth the bench this season canadele can play positions bass and james are solid outfielders and can hit well too uribe nice have well the pitching staff has legitimate starters dealing with young houston team injuries shouldn play big role the only threat the bullpen jonesy goes out may trouble but with the type starters have this season there less pressure the pen david schwam university houston jetson edu
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes article hpcc corp com boell hpcc corp com donald boell writes have say the most impressive hrs ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives remember one hit circa wrigley field that went across the street dead center field and hit house the roof whiffed lot but when did connect watch out favorite was the barry foote homer that bounced waveland and through second floor window across the street second though would the kong drive that was last seen bouncing down the street that dead ends the park waveland mike timlin timlin spot colorado edu
rec.sport.baseball	surfeit offense article innphe jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes article apr cornell edu tedward cornell edu edward ted fischer writes last year the american league scored runs games for total runs per game with game through tuesday the has runs games for total runs per game and total game there were runs per game and game the big question how significant this have returned this just minor abberation some thoughts thought offense was generally down april rising the weather got warm and pitchers got tired this may bigger abberation from the norm than seems don get feeling that the weather has been issue this year there doesn seem really cold spell north america which does makes harder hit not mention making the ball carry less you obviously did not watch the twins chicago cold spell been snowing most the week minnesota inches duluth last weekend would still put things under the too early tell category yup russ anderson disclaimer any statements are own and not reflect upon employer anyone else twins jack morris innings pitched runs world series mvp
rec.sport.baseball	dick estelle does anyone know the dick estelle who does the radio reader npr one the same with the lefty who pitched briefly for the jints just curious paul spending too much time reading the baseball encyclopedia will stretch farm animal beyond its natural length paula koufax com paul andresen hewlett packard home mckinley corvallis sabr member since
rec.sport.baseball	sparky anderson gets win tigers beat article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes tigers manager sparky anderson gets his career win moments ago the tigers completed two game sweep over the oakland tiger stadium beating the here are the highlights oakland detroit game description deleted the post game interview wjr radio detroit sparky anderson said its one the few times gotten emotional his managing career was big moment for him and sure all tiger fans are unanimously very happy for him and what way get number woofing deleted randy another post game interview larussa claimed that sparky was the best manager basebal explaining that part the history sparky softened the blow losing tigers tim timothy law snyder department computer science reiss georgetown university washington tim normal georgetown edu
rec.sport.baseball	yankees win home opener article rvesterm vma edu rvesterm vma edu writes article apr alleg edu millits yankee org sam millitello says telling you sam three call mom and ask bob vesterman yeah and case even that isn enough prompt boy genius sam pick paper and see how his name spelled here another hint the single comes between the two charles
rec.sport.baseball	how slugging percentage computed subject line says all thanks advance please email chuck cygnus eid anl gov cubs
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players believe that rusty staub was also jewish ball player also mordaci brown back the early century was pitcher whose nickname was fingers brown for obvious reasons had fingers
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir article apr acad drake edu sbp acad drake edu writes not clear all certainly rather have team who was winning games than games the game luck going play much bigger role than the game but you still need the pitching staff hold the opposing team one run not you scored four runs you don why strain even the best pitching staff why not make easier for them the game the best pitching staff the world can compensate for blown call bad hop gust wind winning close the wrong way win both keeping opposing runs down and scoring lot yourself are insurance against the shit happens aspect baseball not every great teamhas even good pitching the big red machine the was league average pitching but somehow rose morgan bench perez etc managed win games more than once peaking roger
rec.sport.baseball	all time best players article apr aplcen apl jhu edu jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu writes article apr princeton edu roger crux princeton edu roger lustig writes article apr bsu ucs mbstultz leo bsuvc bsu edu writes recently been working project determine the greatest players their respective postions career what about johnny hodapp the greatest baseman cleveland indians history hits consistantly over great great second baseman the header said career hodapp managed about his nine years the majors for his consistently over make that three years row preceded part time year plus his last year with boston hodapp only qualified for the batting title five times was injured retired right around his birthday anyway hodapp put flashy numbers the year everybody put flashy numbers that was his only really good year with bat his other years were marred lack power and inability draw walks only those were bases balls which does not describe feared hitter the other hand was part the long line famous cleveland wambsganss riggs stephenson etc roger jon johnny hodapp jmhodapp aplcomm jhuapl edu
rec.sport.baseball	new home for the bosox article apr scott skidmore edu jrogoff scott skidmore edu jay rogoff writes agree though also happy with stadium that looks like new comiskey the new park was also made for baseball unlike three rivers the vet riverfront etc not football park which they also play baseball while the multipurpose subject let not forget shea which was designed accommodate both the mets jets was the first stadium think have the box seats rollers they could oriented right angles for baseball parallel for football not the first rfk olim stadium was built years earlier nowadays they don move the seats back for the few exhibition games but the base lower deck used move was all metal which was pretty noisy bat day course with the jets gone jersey and truly good football stadium the mets are saddled with multipurpose stadium where because circular the seats are almost always too far from the action the mets announcers kiner murphy particular have always hyped beautiful shea stadium tipoff how unbeautiful truly vastly better than was before they fixed though back the late was dump roger don you like jet noise
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame article apr news yale edu steve tomassi writes baseball fans what you say don you think deserves mean heck dave winfield hum seriously being considered for lee smith then why don give dave kingman chance darrell evans yeah yeah after the hall fame takes them can take eddie murray and jeff reardon what eddie murray was superb first baseman for long time winfield produced consistently for almsot years and excellently several occasions dave kingman best year was like darryl strawberry typical year with the mets darrell evans too did whole lot more than just hit homers which all that kong did well any case sick and tired mostly sick everybody giving hall fame consideration players that are today standards marginal whom are you talking about yes eddie murray marginal but that because years old wasn marginal for long time honestly ozzie smith and robin yount don belong there they both shortstops that just hung around for long time big deal not smith has hung around for long time and fielded the position better than anyone else ever has yount stopped being shortstop about decade ago case you hadn noticed one his two mvp awards was centerfielder let little more selective huh stop handing out these honors liberally save them for the guys who really deserve face like whom there are many players the hall who aren anywhere near goos the guys you running down something isn done there will little prestige the hall fame anymore when that already the case some standards but the bad players the hall are all from the and recent picks have generally been excellent certain individuals believe that steve garvey jack morris are potential candidates the absurdity apparent gee can these guys even compare the more likely future hall famers like kirby puckett nolan ryan but who cares was stan musial anywhere near good babe ruth not really but obviously belongs there the hall has generally had about the top major leaguers more players come through the game more will that top and yes pretty easy argue that smith yount evans winfield etc are the top dave kingman the other hand was liability throughout most his career course garvey hasn gotten lot hof press don know what you mean for ryan his better than morris that what lot voters tend look and morris was awfully good for decade and doesn lead mlb history walks allowed either roger
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help stankiewicz doubt koufax was one two jewish hofs the other hank greenberg other good players buddy myer johnny kling norm and larry sherry ken holtzman saul rogovin reulbach there have been over jewish major leaguers few years ago there was article about someone who keeps track this spy magazine the article was entitled jews first course there have also been least two books the subject roger
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr midway uchicago edu thf midway uchicago edu writes article qkkodinn jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo jhunix hcf jhu edu pablo iglesias writes article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help hank greenberg would have the most famous because his jewish faith actually affected his play missing late season was world series games because yom kippur the other jewish hof rod carew who converted did ever really convert married jewish woman but never heard him say converted elliot maddox the other hand lowenstein jewish well montana only representative the major leagues undeserving young award winner steve stone jewish between stone koufax ken holtzman might have the wrong pitcher thinking the one who threw hitter both the and and big reulbach that quite starting rotation moe berg can catch harry steinfeldt the the tinkers evers chance infield yep holtzman saul rogovin won era title before blowing out the arm stanky jewish that just dave cohen kinda misinterpretation whatever doesn look like stuck around the majors too long surprised btw they may just shopping gallego around make room for roger
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg runs rbis was notes jays indians series article jqby news rich bnr bratt crchh nosubdomain nodomain john bratt writes article dal niguma dal gord niguma writes alomar fans left rbi fans and runs off this list because they are dependant the team large extent frank thomas hit first lose lot rbi and anyways how many place hitters have you known drive runs doesn happen that often very unlikely with devon white obp front you pretty sure that sandberg has done this least once know someone will correct wrong rbis and runs scored are the two most important offensive statistics you can talk about obp and slg all you want but the fact remains the team that scores more runs wins the game right who cares which player gets credited long the team gets more runs player helps the team get more and rbi but doesn score them all himself who cares consider player single player grounder short reaches the force player double player sac fly gets run gets rbi are you sure they helped the team more than and think hard now flame away you wish roger
rec.sport.baseball	new home for the bosox mif psuvm psu edu writes heard about month back that the red sox are getting new dome stadium have relatives that just moved that way and they said about the city releasing the funds can anybody verify this game bosox fan have lived the boston area for years now they have been talking about new boston garden hockey basketball since lived here one day the last hurdle has been overcome and the next day there new hurdle fans have been grumbling about foxboro stadium whatever called this year for nearly long but there are only preliminary proposals for new stadium local politics prevents anything from being done timely fashion there will not new ballpark lifetime max logan nashua
rec.sport.baseball	cubs mailing list there anyone out there running chicago national league ballclub list please send information andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu thanks chihuahua charlie not responsible academic user services for anything anywhere the university oklahoma except for that one andrew aardvark ucs uoknor edu incident where
rec.sport.baseball	darrrrrrrrryl mark singer brings the strawberry incident where lost homerun and the fan caught before each dodger game the public address announcer makes speech wherein says that fans are welcome the souvenirs balls that are hit into the stands long they not interfere with any that are the field play was the fan wrong should have been more aware the situation and acted avoid any possibility interference yes think should have done more get out the way much fans want catch ball they really should aware that winning the game more important dodger fan has aware that this the home stadium and that entails helping the home team win any way possible soon the ball was hit that far his first instinct should root for darryl catch not try catch himself particularly when sitting that close enjoy the attitude the wrigley fans where they are against visiting team home runs much they actually throw them back the field now this has nothing with whether darryl could have caught not sure probably screwed but the fan should realize his first responsibility get out the way and help the team win daniel daniel caldera usc edu
rec.sport.baseball	yankee bullpen help alan sepinwall writes bullpen blues deleted what buck gonna and what george gonna this continues happen alan george will the only logical thing can when the yanks bullpen isn performing fire the manager david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	dave kingman for the hall fame article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes for ryan his better than morris that what lot voters tend look and morris was awfully good for decade and doesn lead mlb history walks allowed either despite walks and loses ryan deserves the hall fame imho based only his hitters the strike out records are extra what people think about andre dawson for the hof name ken kubey reading editing printing this text address kubey sgi com without the express written consent disclaimer the usual major league baseball prohibited
rec.sport.baseball	bonds maddux article hfz cup com loos cup com joe loos writes been following the giants closely over the off season newspapers notesgroup etc but had first close and personal last night the stick after watching giants hitters struggle last year barry swing was very impressive very quick and his swing seems effortless even compared clark particularly clark late was interesting see bonds hit maddux well not sure barry was after revenge against the braves what but stroked three very pretty hits for rbi the giants always hit maddux well but was interesting that maddux did not pitch around bonds get clayton last night threw straight fastballs over the plate bonds the last night got away with the first one but bonds hit the second one out the park then the when clark was third base with one out maddux did not intentionally walk bonds and bonds dropped single left center the giants team are doing lot surprising things this year addition bonds there has been some good pitching and some hitters seem swinging much better clayton defense has been superb mcgee seems like leading off this year manwaring driving the ball forth the braves announcers pointed out that mcgee leadoff hitter has not scored run yet will always hit around but concerning about his base percentage the key the lineup matt williams has stay hot that bonds can hit with runners base hope continues think they need continue well into june before people are really sold that they are for real particularly the pitching the pitching gets set back bud black placed the burba has done superb job filling far looks like different pitcher from last year however swift terrible both his starts with burba moving into the rotation mike jackson the only right handed reliever aside from rod beck get lot actions also hope that dusty can manage his bullpen better than roger craig especially beck was concerned when beck was used for straight days earlier this week for myself think the fresh start magowan baker etc has really wiped out lot negatives from the last few years and will real factor helping them significantly improve over last year far good edward hui
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players ind blurt oswego edu wrote believe that rusty staub was also jewish ball player also mordaci brown back the early century was pitcher whose nickname was fingers brown for obvious reasons had fingers for ind daniel patrick staub catholic school kid from nawlins mordecai brown farm kid probably protestant from somewhere the midwest lost those fingers farm machinery accident jim palmer isn jewish himself but jockey shorts adoptive parents are also not absolutely certain that carew actually converted his wife and children certainly are jewish neal traven pitt edu you only young once but you can traven vms cis pitt edu immature forever larry andersen
rec.sport.baseball	why spanky sherri nichols writes article binn postoffice psc edu boone psc edu jon boone writes spanky too slow were quicker would still here but with slaught and tom prince they didn want lose prince order bring that pitcher slaught about good spanky and prince coming along nicely tom prince year old hit catcher think him young dann bilardello young don bordello can begin fathom why the pirates have been afraid losing this guy who been aaa most the last seasons the pirates released kirk gibson last year because prince was out options then eventually sent prince down anyway and cleared waivers without peep another year older and still can hit why they think wouldn clear waivers now why would they care there strong possibility that the bucs have absolutely other catching prospects the minors this point least nobody ready for any serious aaa majors duty the main reason they might have stayed with prince could just age especially spanky was creeping toward his mid something all things considered though lot more comfortable with spanky behind the plate than prince isn there decent backup backstop out there looking for work sherri nichols snichols adobe com david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help wasn ron bloomberg the former yankee who got the first base hit designated hitter jewish scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players article apr lafibm lafayette edu lafibm lafayette edu writes just wondering friend and were talking the other day and were for some reason trying come with names jewish baseball players past and present weren able come with much except for sandy koufax somebody stankowitz and maybe john lowenstein can anyone come with any more know sounds pretty lame racking our brains over this but humor thanks for your help forgot art shamsky former red and mets player batted between injuries fell short qualifying for top because injuries and platoon with ron swoboda swobo wasn jewish scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	sid fernandez article apr csi jpl nasa gov cub csi jpl nasa gov ray miller writes read this morning that sid fernandez left last nights game with stiffness his shoulder does anyone have any information the extent the injury indeed there one weather the cold air colorado just got his joints little stiff thanks for the help all they said the radio that developed stiffness the shoulder after throwing curveball that didn loosen because the cold night denver they decided remove him from the game rather than let him pitch expected pitch his next turn the rotation expected april shea the giants scott barman mets mailing list feed the following into your shell scott asd com mail mets request asd com subscribe let mets
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns article apr osf org dswartz osf org dan swartzendruber writes article hpcc corp com boell hpcc corp com donald boell writes have say the most impressive hrs ever see came from dave kingman and his infamous moon raker drives remember one hit circa wrigley field that went across the street dead center field and hit house the roof whiffed lot but when did connect watch out the best home run have ever seen came off believe not roger clemens sorry val couple years ago threw ball incaviglia which was literally inky neck and absolutely hammered the crap out after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for new ball didn even turn around look even get upset the ball hit the lights the left field standard some feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly amazing shot charles
rec.sport.baseball	braves pitching updatedir amazingly pitchers matter how good their mechanics are not machines young winners don pitch vaccuum unaware how their offenses are doing the braves pitching staff already showing signs cracking under the strain knowing they not going get many any runs unfortunately the braves pitchers were bad for long that the organization put much stress and mean stress pitching that they completely ignored hitting the braves right now are looking woefully similar the braves the mid seventies heaven help econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email has been changed new address fls econ duke edu mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu
rec.sport.baseball	braves stoppers the term stopper generally used refer pitcher one who can counted pitch strong game keep his team from going losing streak the braves have plenty pitchers fit this description although right now expect smoltz glavine take the mantle what the braves lack however offensive stopper somebody they can look bring them out their hitting slump there just one there the braves got rid their best pure hitter lonnie smith and only terry pendleton the current roster has ever shown more than cursory ability hit and another thing that worries ron gant seems have slowed down step that scary slow ron gant doesn have much going for him econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email has been changed new address fls econ duke edu mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu
rec.sport.baseball	omar vizquel grand salami cheryl marks writes you think omar grand slam the result his new fan club last week banner appeared the kingdome older women for omar that depends just how much older were they cheryl david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	ind source picks baerga over alomar case closed that joke alomar might not gold glover but certainly worse than baerga defensively actually alomar two time gold glover valentine edk
rec.sport.baseball	mlb could some kind soul out there mail the where can find the mlb program interested some road trips this year david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	gotta question article sdcc ucsd edu demers ucsd edu david demers writes article cjkuo symantec com cjkuo symantec com jimmy kuo writes prism gatech edu michael andre mule writes what the maximum runs allowed before stopper can get credit for relief stopper comes with run lead does getcredit with the save you come and pitch the last three innings and your team was ahead when you got out there and wins the game you get save sort correct you pitched least innings entered with your team the lead was the pitcher when the game ended the game was never tied during your stint and your team won you get save well the rulebook says that the opinion the scorer you must have pitched effectively for your innings this save not automatic unlike the others someone sabr actually looked these games few years ago and found that the official scorer awarded the save every one the games even those which the pitcher had pitched badly allowing runs seeing hearing two sense worth john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	sandberg runs rbis was notes jays indians series article apr princeton edu roger astro princeton edu roger lustig writes right who cares which player gets credited long the team gets more runs player helps the team get more and rbi but doesn score them all himself who cares amusing isn seems only the sdcns realize how much baseball team game combining efforts from every player for the win consider the red sox game last night the sox won the bottom the who won the game clemens pitched strong nine innings allowing only two runs ryan pitched couple shutout innings though needed some excellent defensive plays behind him quantrill pitched couple innings gave the ahead run and got credited with the win when the sox scored two the bottom the inning looks like team effort yet only quantrill got credit for the win how about the offense dawson and vaughn hit think hrs early the game without either one the sox would have lost nine quintana led off the with solid single zupcic pinch ran for quintana providing the speed from first third when cooper ripped second single the inning melvin avoided the getting the run home with sac fly not much help but was something scrub richardson then hit double scoring the speedy cooper all the way from first hill lack defense helped cooper and zupcic were credited with runs melvin and richardson were credited with rbis but seems that was quintana hit that set the whole inning and did melvin really contribute much richardson furthermore people seem consider rbis more significant than runs did melvin contribute more than cooper cooper provided the game winning baserunner and moved the tying run third base with only one out assigning credit based runs and rbis clearly ridiculous you can argue that obp and slg don show you who came through the clutch but rbi don any better least obp and slg don claim try tell you that here the red sox who contributed last night victory all them valentine
rec.sport.baseball	erickson keith miller article apr mintaka lcs mit edu frankkim catfish lcs mit edu frank kim writes was just wondering anyone knew when erickson and keith miller are expected come back and what exactly ails them dunno about miller you mean scott erickson currently the reigning twins least consistent good player pulled muscle the neighborhood the rib cage that made essentially impossible for him pitch temporarily and expected back the mound sunday david thornley with tickets see one the scott ericksons pitch
rec.sport.baseball	infield fly rule article qmrciinnoin gap caltech edu shippert cco caltech edu tim shippert writes about the infield fly rule feeling lucky your runner second can sprint for glory soon the ball popped isn caught probably scored run probably headed for aaa unless deion sanders which case just heads back the dugout and waits for his next base running blunder opportunity econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke edu fls econ duke correspondents email has been changed new address fls econ duke edu mail bounces try fls raphael acpub duke edu
rec.sport.baseball	when melido due back melido came off the today and will start tonight against the rangers now only can the distance that the bullpen doesn have come outta here like vladimir alan sepinwall what this this ice this what happens water when gets too cold this this kent this what happens people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	wfan article apr cabell vcu edu csc imd cabell vcu edu ian derby writes the serious side maybe should have sub for sports radio much people complain about one station another the information you hear lot more depth than what you can get the wire usa today benefit those who have favorite teams outside their vicinity this would wonders people can get and talk about what cataldi said about the eagles what lupica said the bonilla incident etc this can for any station across the country anyone agree agree although would have idea how about doing but you got vote outta here like vladimir alan what this this ice this what happens water when gets too cold this this kent this what happens people when they get too sexually frustrated val kilmer real genius
rec.sport.baseball	bonilla jiann ming writes bobby bonilla supposedly use the word faggot when got mad that author the clubhouse should banned from baseball for year like schott wouldn bother david dwarner journalism indiana edu blue riddle productions the rap art coming out tape this time for real mail for the
rec.sport.baseball	best homeruns article tqinnmnf senator bedfellow mit edu cmk athena mit edu charles kozierok writes the best home run have ever seen came off believe not roger clemens sorry val couple years ago threw ball incaviglia which was literally inky neck and absolutely hammered the crap out after the swing clemens nonchalantly motioned for new ball didn even turn around look even get upset the ball hit the lights the left field standard some feet about the green monster over feet above the ground total truly amazing shot agree home runs off clemens are always memorable kinda like eclipses and hurricanes they don happen very often cheers valentine
rec.sport.baseball	jewish baseball players thought that walt weiss was jewish seem recall this was mentioned once while was still oakland also have suspicions about esther canseco nee haddad gidi
rec.sport.baseball	royals final run total been saying this for quite some time but being absent from the net for while figured stick neck out bit the royals will set the record for fewest runs scored team since the inception the rule any ideas what this they will fall easily short runs that for damn sure can believe these media fools picking them win the division like our tom gage the detroit news claiming herk robinson some kind genius for the trades aquisitions made sean sean sweda sweda css itd umich edu css itd consultant president bob sura fan club manager motor city marauders internet baseball league play ball
rec.sport.baseball	era formula hello the subject tells all trying find out what the formula calculate the era for the pitchers any you baseball fans have please mail napoli atc olivetti com thank you very much gaetano napolitano
rec.sport.baseball	the phillies deja dad has always blamed the phillies collapse sept the phillies had something like game lead with play was born sept the phils proceeded lose something like straight while the cards won straight does anyone know hte exact numbers and pennant was blown this day dad likes remind that all began when was born krm
rec.sport.baseball	candlestick park experience long craige sad com craig eid writes these things should have been done long time ago but took real businessman safeway president peter magowan figure out just like used tell his checkers the customers don come back don need many checkers this isn knock bob lurie was competent businessman but didn deal much with the general public interesting article craig amazing how hard get baseball teams understand how properly market their teams and treat their customers other business could ever get away with the century attitudes that most current owners display running their clubs guess the owners look baseball high growth rate and ask why necessary bring century business practices into the game but they don realize how much more growth the game capable and how much they pay terms long term popularity not doing better the game and its fans greg
rec.sport.baseball	players rushed majors article hydra gatech edu prism gatech edu russell earnest writes this brings back the long suffering memories pre chop braves fans who kept being promised the bob horner dale murphy back back power slam who could stop that guess never know why not horner played games and hit murphy played and hit horner hit games and murphy hit games and the braves lost and games john rickert rickert nextwork rose hulman edu
rec.sport.baseball	rockies spoon feed game mets article hpcc corp com boell hpcc corp com donald boell writes just does bichette look totally lost the outfield been playing horrible defense baylor said after wednesday game that wanted shake the lineup little because bichette has been having rough time defensively and jerald clark has not been hitting was true his word went thursday game and gerald young was right and daryl boston who has very hot bat was left baylor was careful say though that didn necessarily mean for these changes permanent but wanted give these other two shot while clark and bichette were not playing well defense bichette looks like right field mile high stadium bitch play some the visiting outfielders have been having some problems too although bobby bonilla made great catch crashing into the wall rob daryl boston extra base hit thursday game greg
rec.sport.baseball	bring the heard that eli selling the team group cinninati this would help that the could make some real free agent signings the offseason training camp reports that everything pretty positive right now the backup catcher postion will showdown between tackett and parent although would prefer parent draft pick jeff hammonds may coming faster the hierarchy the minors faster than expected mike flanagan trying for another comeback big ben being defended coaches saying that while the homers given were awful lot most came the beginning the season and really improved the second half this may ben year feel that while this may not mussina young year will able pitch the entire season without periods fatigue like last year around august really hope baines can provide the support the need orsulak was decent but had hoped that chito martinez could learn defense better and play like did the right now don have many left handed hitters anderson proving last year was fluke and cal return his averages would big plusses drive for the pennant the rotation should sutcliffe mussina mcdonald rhodes olson interesting case will strike out the side load the bases and then get three pop outs you never know the way see the east this year with personal biases mixed baltimore new york toronto milwaukee cleveland boston detroit the top are the only true contenders mind one these will definitely win the division unless snows hell maryland feel that this baltimore season finally put everything together admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings
rec.sport.baseball	baseball stats hello friends and are running the homewood fantasy baseball league pure fantasy baseball teams unfortunely are running the league using earl weaver baseball with the comm disk and need the stats for the season preferably the major league stat disk have the total stats but ewb needs the split stats otherwise have inning games because the comm disk turns total stats into stats unless you know both right and left handed stats anyone has the ewb stat disk please mail admiral steve liu internet address admiral jhunix hcf jhu edu committee for the liberation and intergration terrifying organisms and their rehabilitation into society from red dwarf polymorph the bangles are the greatest female rock band that ever existed this sig has been brought you frungy the sport kings
rec.sport.hockey	superstars and attendance was teemu selanne was leaders dean falcione posting from jrmst pitt edu writes wrote when the pens got mario granted there was big publicity etc etc and interest was immediately generated gretzky did the same thing for however imnsho neither team would have seen marked improvement attendance the team record did not improve the year before lemieux came pittsburgh finished with points following his arrival the pens finished with and points with couple stanley cups thrown was this point the pens attendance was near capacity out sellouts yet they hadn made the playoffs since how you explain place team breaking attendance records when they haven been the playoffs years mario lemieux the explanation imho you could make case that the expectation improving team that would make the playoffs the reason funny you should mention this exactly the case was going make but think the reason lemieux had point season and was the first non gretzky win the hart and ross since people turned out watch him play will grant that star like mario will draw fans even the team sucks but this short term only still not think the attendance increase will last unless the team winning competitive improving butt kicking one pittsburgh was still getting better people continued support them they suddenly dropped say points you have knee surgery for some the people jumping off the bandwagon also the following year the pens had points not numbers came from the nhl guide and record book they made the transaction try and build winner around mario that true but the improvement attendance came before they started doing this coffey late and before they even had playoff bound team doubling attendance occured from the previous year increase from points points not going that the arrival mario lemieux what did you can give the credit mario since deserves but point that wasn mario himself but was the expectation things come winning team that created being the next great hockey superstar and before anybody jumps and says nit picking and mincing words back and read from where this thread started might help think about what would through fan mind who suddenly found interest mario and the pens was gee mario lemieux amazing watch him play was gee now got kick ass guy our side watch him play think was the latter similar thing happened before gretzky arrival about per game after constant sellouts they are still selling out every game despite showing little improvement since gretzky first year there how you explain people are going see gretzky they certainly aren going see winner they haven got winner they had much better teams their past history than they currently have yet they didn draw well then don think this accurate the tickets sell but people don the games think this thread has already been discussed season ticket holders don always use their tickets effect after the kings initial success following gretzky arrival points same source and corresponding attendance jump there has been effective drop attendance even though ticket sales may not have changed much whether not the kings are winner debatable claim that since gretzky arrival they have the very least been competitive also claim that mcnall has made stupid move trying reassemble the oiler dynasty but that another story and included only because don like mcnall anyway mcnall did some heavy marketing around gretzky and that undoubtedly was also responsible for the attendance and merchandising sales etc but said when the kings have been there little tailspins over the past couple years there have been empty seats the forum even the tickets were sold think the case lemieux gretzky the player can transcend winning the major drawing power for the short term imo although think that inevitable that the team will improve with player such lemieux gretzky simply because they make people around them better but winning sure hell helps well least are full agreement here this does not make roger point any more valid but the jets aren are you saying roger has ever had valid point couldn resist getting huge jump productivity yet they are getting huge jump attendance this due the emergence teemu selanne they have the best record hockey sure hell isn because they are winning yes but they are doing worse than last year think the same type reasoning applied new pittsburgh fan applies all the extra people showing winnipeg games difficult predict but you think that the jets miss the playoffs next season that the year after they will maintain their attendance levels seriously doubt because that case the expectation improving team would gone with without selanne did provide the example rocket ismail and the toronto argonauts the cfl did you leave out because you don know much about the cfl that the case then fair enough but isn the case then curious hear your explanation
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team leaders article mar ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes the jets use the breakaway pass scheme create scoring sensation order generate interest teams score many more goals against winnipeg when selanne the ice winnipeg scores when the ice then can see how his contribution can described impressive implicitly you are assuming that goals scored against winnipeg with selanne the ice can blamed him roger forward winnipeg has lousy defensive record anyway let put another way john cullen terrible what your excuse for him that his powerplay points don count neither selanne the object the game not feed selanne win and feeding selanne does not contribute any meaningful way winning knowledgeable hockey observers the world over would agree that feeding selanne can score does contribute meaningful way winning pat burns wouldn have goal suck like this his team you worried about teemu when you have glenn anderson your team don know what selanne does best know what jet management wants and again the object the exercise not allow selanne what does best win hockey games what does best score refer you comment above now selanne grandstanding goal suck did you see the way parades around with his arms outstretched after scoring goal you would think the messiah had returned nope didn see was too busy watching foligno jump and down after his goal
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion can only comment the kings but the most obvious candidate for pleasant surprise alex zhitnik came highly touted defensive defenseman but clearly much more than that great skater and hard shot though wish were more accurate fact pretty much allowed the kings trade away that huge defensive liability paul coffey kelly hrudey only the biggest disappointment you thought was any good begin with but best only mediocre goaltender better choice would tomas sandstrom though not through any fault his own but because some thugs toronto decided threaten his career order avoid conceding goal other than that the award goes robert lang uninspiring czech robitaille could easily mvp but prefer give rob blake who quietly becoming one the league premier defensemen and the kings manage hold onto him and the rest our young defense could one day mean that let fewer goals than hartford honorable mentions majestic marty and warren rychel jon
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo smale healthy uwaterloo bryan smale writes mvp biggest biggest suprise disappointment los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey would have chosen alex zhitnik for biggest suprise they did expect that would become great defenseman but don think anyone knew that was going this impressive his rookie year his speed skating ability and puck control exceptional the one watch the kings kris kris assist uci edu kings
rec.sport.hockey	ncaa finals winner maine beat lssu the logistician reigns supreme blue tigers pistons lions red wings ching wpi wpi edu
rec.sport.hockey	and they off well gotta tell last night leafs game the devils was nail bitter let tell you was well played game both teams thought but according the don and ron was the off night for the leafs and the devils were outplaying toronto well beg differ imho clark deserved first star much gilmour did his fast breaks towards the net and the good opportunites that created reminded the clark old but not take any the credit away from gilmour think the leafs are playing great hockey why well first look their injury list which includes cullen ellet zezel macoun course question this how will the leafs fare when they are once again healthy they are playing this well far second just look their standings still second defence moved from overall over the last month haven lost home last games game undefeated streak etc btw wrong was this potvin first shut out can remember him having any yet well april see that the race for first the norris has truly begun and will very close race between chicago and toronto and the best game the season will probably their last against each other anyone lucky enough have tickets see this one coming the stretch and still roar leafs alfred yong jeh yim toronto wins the mathematics actuarial science cup university waterloo canada like coca cola idea personally mail ayim descartes waterloo edu
rec.sport.hockey	give blood tee shirts the shirts are believe not from bob probert line clothes the whole shirt says give blood fight probie cool they sound like cult classic can someone post address phone store that sells these thanks jake
rec.sport.hockey	ncaa finals winner lake state maine finals who won please post
rec.sport.hockey	trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie also sprach slegge kean ucs mun tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows phillidelphia phillie will send eric lindros ottawa and ottawa will give first round pick montreal this true will most likely depend whether not ottawa gets choose overall can ottawa afford lindros salary personally can see philli giving lindros for anything they didn give away that much quebec just trade him away again not mention that lindros seems huge draw phillie and that represents successful future for the franchise ottawa may better off taking the players from montreal for the pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc two things didn the trade deadline pass two weeks ago the flyers would never ever ever give lindros simple that flyers cup mike yes rush marillion elp genesis king crimson dream theater beatles mike weintraub aka jvi irc courageous convictions mweintr american edu will drag the dream jedi wave cerf net into existence the american university washington rush not limbaugh philadelphia flyers vancouver canucks philadelphia phillies
rec.sport.hockey	alignnment expansion article zhj idacom com andrew idacom com andrew scott writes article apr nntpd cxo dec com nixdorf etre eric nixdorf writes looking the way the divisions were aligned there are six teams each the central norris and pacific smyth divisions while there are seven teams each the northeast adams and atlantic patrick divisions the thought occurs that inherent the realignment expansion one team the central division and one team the pacific division although seen nothing published that indicates that actually when the nhl expansion committee was formed couple years back before the ottawa and tampa bay expansion john zeigler stated the time that was the nhl expansion plan grow teams per division the turn the century andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom division ext during the roman era was considered old last night during sharks broadcast commissioner bettman was interviewed during the first intermission made bones about the expansion permanent hold until satisfied that the current allotment are fully stable this means that cities looking for club the foreseeable future will have wait until one team some location fails looks relocate this good imo there sense expanding only means more failing franchises are the mold tom galvin galvint taurus nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played sat april tampa bay philadelphia first period philadelphia carkner unassisted philadelphia hawgood recchi lindros philadelphia lindros recchi hawgood tampa bay beers zamuner chambers second period tampa bay andersson hamrlik lafreniere philadelphia conroy butsayev faust philadelphia beranek galley hawgood third period philadelphia recchi brind amour galley philadelphia power play scorer pts beranek brind amour butsayev carkner conroy faust galley hawgood lindros recchi tampa bay power play scorer pts andersson beers chambers hamrlik lafreniere zamuner vancouver detroit first period detroit kozlov fedorov chiasson detroit drake ciccarelli coffey vancouver ronning slegr bure second period detroit sheppard drake hiller detroit ciccarelli chiasson drake third period detroit ysebaert fedorov cheveldae detroit power play special goals total scorer pts cheveldae chiasson ciccarelli coffey drake fedorov hiller kozlov sheppard ysebaert vancouver power play scorer pts bure ronning slegr buffalo boston first period buffalo audette corkum wood boston juneau neely oates second period buffalo errey lafontaine khmylev boston douris sweeney bourque third period boston donato unassisted boston power play scorer pts bourque donato douris juneau neely oates sweeney buffalo power play scorer pts audette corkum errey khmylev lafontaine wood calgary san jose first period calgary suter reichel macinnis second period san jose zmolek odgers evason san jose kisio garpenlov gaudreau calgary lindberg macinnis third period scoring overtime calgary fleury otto yawney calgary power play scorer pts fleury lindberg macinnis otto reichel suter yawney san jose power play scorer pts evason garpenlov gaudreau kisio odgers zmolek pittsburgh quebec first period quebec kamensky huffman quebec young lapointe huffman second period pittsburgh mullen lemieux murphy pittsburgh lemieux tocchet samuelsson pittsburgh lemieux tocchet stevens quebec young sundin kovalenko third period pittsburgh tippett unassisted pittsburgh tippett mceachern mullen pittsburgh power play special goals total scorer pts lemieux mceachern mullen murphy samuelsson stevens tippett tocchet quebec power play scorer pts huffman kamensky kovalenko lapointe sundin young new jersey toronto first period scoring second period scoring third period toronto gilmour andreychuk anderson toronto power play scorer pts anderson andreychuk gilmour new jersey power play scoring ottawa hartford first period ottawa maciver baker luongo hartford kron nylander gosselin hartford burt cassels verbeek hartford cunneyworth yake nylander hartford sanderson cassels houda hartford verbeek cassels zalapski second period hartford sanderson cassels zalapski third period hartford kron poulin burt ottawa turgeon lamb ottawa baker luongo maciver hartford power play scorer pts burt cassels cunneyworth gosselin houda kron nylander poulin sanderson verbeek yake zalapski ottawa power play scorer pts baker lamb luongo maciver turgeon winnipeg edmonton first period winnipeg tkachuk housley zhamnov edmonton klima ciger elik second period winnipeg king unassisted winnipeg zhamnov selanne winnipeg domi selanne housley third period edmonton manson unassisted winnipeg eagles numminen bautin winnipeg zhamnov ulanov selanne edmonton gelinas kravchuk ranford edmonton kravchuk buchberger winnipeg power play scorer pts bautin domi eagles housley king numminen selanne tkachuk ulanov zhamnov edmonton power play scorer pts buchberger ciger elik gelinas klima kravchuk manson ranford chicago louis first period louis shanahan janney hull second period chicago murphy chelios roenick louis shanahan hedican janney chicago noonan murphy chelios louis bozon chicago roenick sutter murphy third period scoring overtime scoring louis power play special goals total scorer pts bozon chelios hedican hull janney murphy shanahan chicago power play scorer pts chelios murphy noonan roenick sutter montreal islanders first period scoring second period montreal brunet carbonneau daigneault islanders turgeon thomas kurvers islanders mullen unassisted third period montreal bellows desjardins dipietro montreal damphousse desjardins bellows montreal power play scorer pts bellows brunet carbonneau daigneault damphousse desjardins dipietro islanders power play scorer pts kurvers mullen thomas turgeon minnesota los angeles first period minnesota dahlen unassisted minnesota courtnall dahlen modano second period minnesota mcphee sjodin hatcher third period scoring minnesota power play scorer pts courtnall dahlen hatcher mcphee modano sjodin los angeles power play scoring
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played sun april rangers washington first period rangers graves turcotte lowe rangers gartner messier rangers olczyk messier amonte second period rangers beukeboom unassisted third period scoring rangers power play scorer pts amonte beukeboom gartner graves lowe messier olczyk turcotte washington power play scoring boston buffalo first period scoring second period boston leach wesley oates boston oates douris poulin third period boston douris bourque boston power play special goals total scorer pts bourque douris leach oates poulin wesley buffalo power play scoring pittsburgh new jersey first period pittsburgh francis lemieux tocchet second period pittsburgh murphy francis mullen pittsburgh francis tocchet lemieux pittsburgh jagr tocchet francis new jersey zelepukin driver lemieux third period new jersey maclean nicholls stevens pittsburgh lemieux jagr pittsburgh power play special goals total scorer pts francis jagr lemieux mullen murphy tocchet new jersey power play scorer pts driver lemieux maclean nicholls stevens zelepukin toronto philadelphia first period philadelphia dineen beranek hawgood philadelphia mcgill lindros recchi second period philadelphia lindros recchi galley third period philadelphia dineen hawgood galley philadelphia power play scorer pts beranek dineen galley hawgood lindros mcgill recchi toronto power play scoring vancouver ottawa first period scoring second period vancouver plavsic craven vancouver momesso nedved plavsic third period vancouver bure unassisted vancouver power play scorer pts bure craven momesso nedved plavsic ottawa power play scoring louis chicago first period chicago sutter murphy chelios louis janney shanahan brown chicago roenick chelios smith chicago roenick sutter chelios chicago graham gilbert ruuttu louis janney shanahan crossman second period scoring third period chicago murphy chelios belfour louis miller hull janney louis janney miller shanahan chicago power play scorer pts belfour chelios gilbert graham murphy roenick ruuttu smith sutter louis power play scorer pts brown crossman hull janney miller shanahan calgary san jose first period calgary otto yawney ashton san jose odgers pederson wilkinson second period calgary nieuwendyk johansson reese calgary reichel skrudland berube third period calgary ashton otto fleury san jose pederson odgers evason san jose odgers gaudreau evason calgary power play scorer pts ashton berube fleury johansson nieuwendyk otto reese reichel skrudland yawney san jose power play scorer pts evason gaudreau odgers pederson wilkinson
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions stanley cup champion vancouver canucks sorry pittsburgh walk jack first all the penguins will win the cup again who going stop them definitely not the canucks predictions patrick division winner pittsburgh adams division winner quebec montreal norris division winner detroit smythe division winner winnipeg wales conference champ pittsburgh campbell conference champ detroit stanley cup champions again pittsburgh canucks suck they lose the first round compliments winnipeg and teemu selanne the pens are almost unstoppable with mario lemieux
rec.sport.hockey	coloured puck was changes not noted yet article apr bnr dwarf bcarh bnr jim jordan says the precedent was set the wha their first season they used red puck for exhibition games and blue one for the regular season thankfully they abandoned favour black before the next season began one reason that the wha abandoned the blue puck was the fact that crumbled very quickly during play the blue dye that was used somehow affected the vulcanized rubber the puck decreasing its cohesiveness terry uicvm uic edu
rec.sport.hockey	pool win the gold apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto writes article porp zaphod axion nmcglynn axion writes has now risen from nowhere pool seasons they pulled out the world championships and did not enter until when took part pool hosted pool and won all our game progress pool finished pool and then last year hosted pool again winning all our games now after pool won all games and now pool world champions next year perhaps just goes show you what using canadians can for hockey team france italy and now great britain all use significant number canadians their hockey teams yup then again there are lots foreign born players the canadian national soccer team the brits give something back you the end for the record former rangers coach ted darth sator recently led lion milan jari kurri former team only the nickname changed devils lion their second straight italian championship they made the european final four last autumn after losing swedish champs malmo the semis and accomplished this feat using fifteen canadian born players mamma mia marcu gerald
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article cjb ccu umanitoba umturne ccu umanitoba daryl turner writes they were and even washington might consider patty bust rework that trade minute druce has been complete and utter bust here only goals well druce pretty much sucked when was with the caps had one good playoffs not season well the caps are notorious for making stupid trades anyway can seen with the cicarelli and hrivnak trades sigh another note have say the caps biggest surprise was cote many caps fans had been expecting lot from bondra already skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	canadian silver dollar stanley cup centennial according always questionable newspaper there silver dollar being minted canada the back which commemorates the anniversary the stanley cup now know full well what coins are used every day canada can easily fish few out pocket change right now fact question since the loon the only dollar coin that know legal tender this just commemorative coin with monetary exchange value what the sort thing that only hockey buffs and coin collectors might covet with chance being circulated uncirculated coin what the current cost and what its potential value just curious one knows take this soc culture canada and rec collecting whatever thanks again valerie hammerl some days have remind him not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but pwwpz ubvms buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	superstars and attendance was teemu selanne was leaders apr ists ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes dean falcione posting from jrmst pitt edu writes but think the reason lemieux had point season and was the first non gretzky win the hart and ross since people turned out watch him play will grant that star like mario will draw fans even the team sucks but this short term only still not think the attendance increase will last unless the team winning competitive improving butt kicking one pittsburgh was still getting better people continued support them they suddenly dropped say points you have knee surgery for some the people jumping off the bandwagon disagree mcnall has demonstrated with gretzky that star brings out the crowds whether not the team expected well very few fans real istically expect the kings well this year although and yet they still out see gretzky this the marketing strategy selling the game selling the stars that employed baseball and notably the nba and this the attitude that the new bettman mcnall leadership bringing the league they have gone record stating that they are trying sell the game its stars timo salami and brett hull are perfect examples players that real fans know aren worth damn and yet being benificiaries marketing oriented coaching strategies have goal totals that would indicate the casual observer the very fans the nhl wants attract that these players are indeed superstars they made the transaction try and build winner around mario that true but the improvement attendance came before they started doing this coffey late and before they even had playoff bound team doubling attendance occured from the previous year increase from points points not going that the arrival mario lemieux what did might help think about what would through fan mind who suddenly found interest mario and the pens was gee mario lemieux amazing watch him play was gee now got kick ass guy our side watch him play think was the latter ain nearly simple this the casual fan doesn think about much all can you actually find adult with digit who believes that mcdonalds makes good hamburgers did provide the example rocket ismail and the toronto argonauts the cfl did you leave out because you don know much about the cfl that the case then fair enough but isn the case then curious hear your explanation yes but apparently the rocket has not lived his marketing responsi bilities has was hyped initially superstar but outside one grey cup game has done very little maintain enhance that assess ment his talents most argo fans probably feel the team would better off without him cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	ottawa montreal philly trade here again this the same idiot who posted the gretzky trade toronto sheeeesh you should have waited until got over that one before this garbage maybe would have believed for half second not the way just heard from mother goose that mario lemieux was traded winnpeg for tie domi randy psc know noone has heard tiny college hicksville new hampshire plymouth state college
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team leaders apr ists ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes implicitly you are assuming that goals scored against winnipeg with selanne the ice can blamed him roger forward winnipeg has lousy defensive record anyway let put another way john cullen terrible what your excuse for him that his powerplay points don count neither selanne are you comparing cullen salami would say that that valid winnipeg such lousy defensive team then why the hell does salami stand around the other team blueline when the puck his own end the object the game not feed selanne win and feeding selanne does not contribute any meaningful way winning knowledgeable hockey observers the world over would agree that feeding selanne can score does contribute meaningful way winning excuse are the jets playing hockey let check yes but just barely they have allowed more goals than they have scored sounds awful lot like salami sounds like they would just well off better played the solid two way game that our friends finland claim capable but did that wouldn chal lenging for the league lead goals would the planes might challenging for first however you worried about teemu when you have glenn anderson your team now let see you have compared timo anderson and cullen who next mike foligno don know what selanne does best know what jet management wants and again the object the exercise not allow selanne what does best win hockey games what does best score refer you comment above some our finnish friends who have watched him play claim that can play solid two way game would have say that this style contribution would more conducive winning don you think now selanne grandstanding goal suck did you see the way parades around with his arms outstretched after scoring goal you would think the messiah had returned nope didn see was too busy watching foligno jump and down after his goal don believe you did compare him foligno and honestly hadn read this far would help you used little discrimination your thinking your contributions would more highly valued could see that you weren trying merely argumentative cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	memoriam dan kelly and danny gallivan article burke burkemac oshag edu burke edu burke writes when talking about hockey broadcasters let give moment silence remember the louis blues great dan kelly many you may have heard him the late and early cbs used hockey night canada intermissions with another recently deceased great danny gallivan the canadiens agreed here never forget dan kelly calling the play play the canada cup was masterful and danny gallivan will never replaced even now when watch hnic remember his voice when see macinnis iafrate hey what with these guys named who can shoot shot from the point still think blistering blast thn had tribute gallivan the issue following his death the story they included quote from one the games did went appears risebrough has pugnaciously construed that check said and will undoubtedly make visitation the box punition classic vintage gallivan sorely missed here two the best there was and best that ever will dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion was thinking about who each the teams were the mvps biggest surprises and biggest disappointments this year now these are just observations and are admittedly lacking because have not had opportunity see all the teams the same amount anyway mvp most valuable player his team both terms points and terms leadership can win without him biggest surprise the player who rose above expectation the player that may have raised the level his game new height even that new level doesn necessarily warrant allstar berth includes those players who the outset the season may not even have been the team plans biggest disappointment the player from whom expected more picked denis savard montreal because with the new emphasis offence brought demers shouldn savard have done better team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette jinx calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi not expected back broten montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king finally marois new york rangers messier kovalev bourque ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet even for him jagr quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley louis blues shanahan joseph ron sutter tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved finally momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce mentioned top these are impressions from where sit would welcome any opinions from those fans nearer their teams other words anywhere away from toronto newspaper bryan
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion smale healthy uwaterloo bryan smale writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce weren these two traded for each other poetic justice
rec.sport.hockey	let talk sticks article odin corp sgi com dptom endor corp sgi com tom arnold writes okay you hockey playing fans finatics out there looking over the wide range aluminum sticks for the first time been playing with pieces lumbar that seem weigh alot and break after few uses thinking changing aluminum shaft when break the blade all have change the problem that there such wide reange models and selections out there that not certain which consider can any you post some your suggestions and experiences with the aluminum sticks what the difference between models what you like dislike about them and which brands are best had and still have few aluminum sticks got first when was christian and broke the shaft halfway through the season two years later bought another canadian the beginning the next season and still have also have easton that friend was getting rid off after giving the game find that easton blades are easier get but all brands blades are pretty well interchangeable watch out for dried bits firewood that some stores pass off blades experiences the blades aluminum break more often than regular sticks but only ever broken one aluminum shaft like aluminum sticks the blades are quickly changed even the bench you have the downside the shaft won break you decide impale yourself ciao mark this between and the vegetable rick moranis little shop horrors mark shoesmith shoe physics watstar uwaterloo
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo smale healthy uwaterloo bryan smale writes was thinking about who each the teams were the mvps biggest surprises and biggest disappointments this year now these are just observations and are admittedly lacking because have not had opportunity see all the teams the same amount anyway team mvp surprise disappointment edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby well since the oilers didn win heck lot games not sure they deserve and mvp can win without him however suggest kelly buchberger instead dave manson who has had brutal year his pick for the all star game notwithstanding for biggest surprise say that buchberger had higher expectations this year due his breakthrough year for him last year didn really raise his game suggestion would shjon podein one the callups from cape breton during the year was quite far down the depth chart the oilers stable prospects but made big impact the team has goals his games and only those are decent numbers for third line player who was seemingly doomed minor league oblivion the oilers coaching staff likens his style john tonelli think the full time roster next year for biggest disappointment you could name any the players the oilers dumped for lousy production this year nicholls gilchrist tikkanen even shayne corson but mellanby isn far off andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom division ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	potvin new goalie mask stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc writes was wtahcing right guard hockey week tsn yesterday and they had feature this guy that does lot most the masks for nhl goalies they talked about how they are made what they are made and the designs that are put them etc actually this part was really interesting turns out that the mask custom fit the goalie face the goalie puts his her face through piece wood was plastic with hole that allows only the face and forehead show hair covered cap eyes are covered plastic wrap type material and vaseline put the goaltender face then plaster spread their cheeks forehead and chin which takes about minutes dry sufficiently when dries effectively mold the goalie face this used the basis the mask the rest involves padding the inside hardening the exterior fitting the cage etc etc john blue the bruins actually demonstrated the procedure the show exhibited couple masks currently working namely new mask for andy moog which basic working his current mask with the bear and new mask for bob essensa which was really cool the jets logo was the chin and there were two fighter jets either side the forehead with air brushed back ground yeah essensa mask looked really good the best one all was one never talked about just held has the current leafs crest the chin and awesome looking black panther the forehead has new mask for felix potvin but never said whose was actually thought heard him say that was potvin for certain would bet money either way and did look awesome dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	ncaa finals winner ktgeiss miavx acs muohio edu writes lake state maine finals who won please post maine
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo smale healthy uwaterloo bryan smale writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette jinx calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet chelios far the mvp chicago detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby manson his own admission had terrible year the oilers don really have team mvp default should craig mactavish shjon podein was the biggest surprise tikkanen the biggest disappointment hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi not expected back broten tinordi was back mid season last year and when plays the mvp montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king finally marois king had great year last year also new york rangers messier kovalev bourque how can kovalev surprise ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund fence sitting look philly record with eric and without there doubt soderstrom probably the biggest surprise pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet even for him jagr tocchet had near point season philly with mike bullard his center why shouldn able that with mario quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley louis blues shanahan joseph ron sutter really joseph deserves the mvp nod tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved finally momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce gerald
rec.sport.hockey	where are the doubters now hmm article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes and after the leafs make cream cheese the philadelphia side tomorrow night the leafs will without equal the leafs are the best team the campbell conference cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian more like philadelphia making dust out dead leafs roger why you continue embarass yourself with your brash predictions they got whitewashed last place team granted philly pretty decent but the best team the cambell conference would have beaten last place team scott humphrey chemical engineering university tulsa hse vax utulsa edu bruins for the cup opinions expressed are those the individual not the tulsa
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach corner summary april allan ualberta allan sullivan writes before begin lambasting don cherry let first say that been sort cherry fan for while admittedly stuff says has taken lightly but more less harmless saturday however crossed the lines good taste according don the entire article wasn perfect and there were some shots frank musil and alpo suhonen don noted that musil wasn much player didn score many goals last year also made fun their names one guy has name like dog food the other like laxitive meta musil this the best can gee don tremendous amounts professionalism here the cbc looks just bad looks foolish letting him get away with this nonsense making fun names bad enough that makes asinine blanket statements about european players but now resorted making fun their names too sounded like idiot much like did last week when said that teemu would never make his rock sock video until dropped the gloves the subject realignment don said that liked the new division names well what said was that even though been around the league for quite some time still doesn know who where conference and division names hello mcfly the names have been around for couple decades also invited the audience name the teams the wales quick quick followed you don know don know sorry don wrong this one ron don don know like you your show for minutes can hardly stand you this show for this was absolutely hilarious don argument about the basketball and baseball brawls was fairly good unfortunately neglected mention the fines that were levelled the nba case serious money well never been one for objectivity has don question gretzky wouldn better for you change your friends that they like the game than for change the game for your friends now this liked
rec.sport.hockey	trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows phillidelphia phillie will send eric lindros ottawa and ottawa will give first round pick montreal this true will most likely depend whether not ottawa gets choose overall can ottawa afford lindros salary personally can see philli giving lindros for anything they didn give away that much quebec just trade him away again not mention that lindros seems huge draw phillie and that represents successful future for the franchise ottawa may better off taking the players from montreal for the pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc
rec.sport.hockey	where are the doubters now hmm jason studsys mscs edu jason hanson writes article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey and after the leafs make cream cheese the philadelphia side tomorrow night the leafs will without equal then again maybe not put mildly watched the flyers demolish toronto last night realized that matter how good the leafs line may they need one two more decent lines far the playoffs and course healthy felix potvin thomas darling the cellar bbs public access system darling cellar org genie darling facthq truth thru technology
rec.sport.hockey	good for hockey bad for hockey jmd cbnewsm att com joseph dakes writes article ppdccinnbe dev null phys psu edu stimpy dev null phys psu edu article wxnf constellation ecn uoknor edu mfoster alliant backbo prefer the miami colons myself headline flames blow out colons would kevin dineen play for the miami colons flyers fan resent you making kevin dineen the butt your jokes just take moment digest and sure you see the humour thomas darling the cellar bbs public access system darling cellar org genie darling facthq truth thru technology
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article apr eng cam dscy eng cam yap writes smale healthy uwaterloo bryan smale writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce weren these two traded for each other poetic justice they were and even washington might consider patty bust rework that trade minute druce has been complete and utter bust here only goals daryl turner contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba fidonet please route through tkachuk over zhamnov sel nne shoots scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	hey flyers fans did you ever notice how many people the net have trouble the comparitively easy task spelling the nick name our fair city never knew that philadelphia becomes phillie philli when spoken for all you who don know yet here little clue spelled thank you yeah about that drug induced trade rumor don think the sniders are that stupid the rumor you should looking into mike keenan coming back coach the flyers later mike mike cornell there are great many people the country today who mac cwru edu through fault their own are sane monty python let flyers stanley cup brain hurts gumby
rec.sport.hockey	adams division race article apr thunder mcrcim mcgill edu breton mcrcim mcgill edu pierre breton writes the adams division race certainly interesting this year here are important data keep mind the eventuality tie for given standing position head head games quebec wins over montreal boston leads against quebec with two games remaining montreal and boston are tied with one game remaining pierre breton aka fluide glacial pierre for purposes the tie breaker you only count the first three games each city therefore quebec cannot possibly ahead montreal and there probably only one game that counts remaining between boston and quebec which means boston has probably already won pete clark rsh flyers contact
rec.sport.hockey	canadiens another stanley cup with the kind team montreal has now they can take the cup easily the only problem they have right now that everyone trying steal the show and play alone they need some massive teamwork they are also little slump because long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude mouton died last tuesday and was rough everybody because has worked with the organization for years but know that excuse but the habs manage get some good teamwork and get into the spirit they should have problem winning may dean
rec.sport.hockey	where are the doubters now hmm the blackhawks shall triumph walter ladwig this the weather the cuckoo likes net link armored division submissive drbombay netlink cts com vernacular the world into gambling birdhouse velocity the cut ups
rec.sport.hockey	canadiens another stanley cup pereira cam org dean pereira writes with the kind team montreal has now they can take the cup easily the only problem they have right now that everyone trying steal the show and play alone they need some massive teamwork they are also little slump because long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude mouton died last tuesday and was rough everybody because has worked with the organization for years but know that excuse but the habs manage get some good teamwork and get into the spirit they should have problem winning may agree also think roy needs good kick sometimes that horrible loss the capitals last week yeeeech here cup this year richard rauser you have idea what you doing rauser sfu don worry about that professional wni outlaws this for living remember matter where you there you are banzai
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl ten years ago the number europeans the nhl was roughly quarter what now going into the season the numbers euros nhl teams have escalated the following stats canadians americans europeans please note that these numbers are rounded off and taken from the top players each the teams source the vancouver sun here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick watching game between american and canadian team let say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky this north america isn toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers euros other teams getting worse well live vancouver and hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket will completely throw now every time see the canucks play keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have carry him out stretcher the way not canucks fan begin with okay the stretcher remark was little carried away but the point that resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead canadians and some americans denies young canadians the opportunity play their north american league and instead gives europeans who aren even better hockey players all hype this european mystique sickening but until nhl owners get over canadian and american players will continue have fight harder get drafted into their own league with the numbers euros the nhl escalating the problem clearly only getting worse all for the creation european hockey league and let the bures and selannes the world play their own continent just don want them mine richard rauser you have idea what you doing rauser sfu don worry about that professional wni outlaws this for living remember matter where you there you are banzai
rec.sport.hockey	lindros will traded true rumor fact big three way deal eric lindros going ottawa senators and senators get mill from montreal montreal gets alexander daigle the first round pick from senators philly gets damphousse bellow patrick roy and draft pick shadow node gts org there and you can see real there and you can see transparent not there and you can see you erased
rec.sport.hockey	request for islanders mail list article apr sifon mcgill bui mcgill bui don writes article xvf rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes anyone out there keeping islanders mail list could you please add thanks advance ercu can add onto the list too thanks rex count isles don bui mcgill please count also just can tell you how excited was when the islanders beat the rangers overtime last friday isles
rec.sport.hockey	expansion article patrick apr blanco owlnet rice edu patrick blanco owlnet rice edu patrick humphrey writes fri apr gmt vamwendt atlas upei michael wendt said albany new york boise idaho couple cities with fair interest but size and closeness other teams question albany has their ahl franchise though goes the capital district label but boise forget the chl made attempt that part the country with franchise great falls and one showed folks that part the pnw just aren interested hockey hey patrick the montana magic played billings not great falls plh know where put the next two nhl expansion teams phoenix and houston assuming the whalers don pack and move the meantime marc phoenix and houston marc foster contact for the oklahoma city blazers central hockey university oklahoma geography department league adams cup internet mfoster geohub gcn uoknor edu champions mfoster alliant backbone uoknor edu placed the chl mailing list send email either address above
rec.sport.hockey	trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie article apr kean ucs mun slegge kean ucs mun writes tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows phillidelphia phillie will send eric lindros ottawa and ottawa will give first round pick montreal obviously some reporter for the ottawa sun got taken april fools joke probably started someone with the nordiques the bruins like for example who going reimburse the flyers for the million they paid the nordiques like the senators are going get lindros and million the flyers sent the equivalent players when you include the draft choices quebec and they are going get only four back some reporter was had real badly and someone must having real good laugh seeing how the much the sports media has chosen publicize this utter nonsense this true will most likely depend whether not ottawa gets choose overall can ottawa afford lindros salary can you think cannot possibly true need for the personally can see philli giving lindros for anything they didn give away that much quebec just trade him away again not mention that lindros seems huge draw phillie and that represents successful future for the franchise ottawa may better off taking the players from montreal for the pick can believe that anyone would consider giving such crap even the remotest consideration gerald
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard the racist rauser writes all kinds unacceptably racist drivel deleted and after that find the man has absolutely nothing say richard rauser you are dishonourable little man caustically when necessary roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes okay the stretcher remark was little carried away but the point that resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead canadians and some americans denies young canadians the opportunity play their north american league and instead gives europeans who aren even better hockey players all hype this european mystique sickening but until nhl owners get over canadian and american players will continue have fight harder get drafted into their own league according what reasonable principle justice does standing intimate geographical and psychological relations league give one some privileged right play european
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions article apr rose com jack petrilli rose com jack petrilli writes stuff deleted don understand why many people are predicting upset against pittsburgh the team has won row coming into the playoffs they won practically every game that they really wanted win all year including critical victories against the caps and one against hot bruins team the gaahden the team probably its peak stronger than the previous stanley cup winners mean know they can lose but would large upset personally think teams are going hard pressed win games any series against the pens and not pittsburgh fan have agree here heard tsn tonight you want pick someone else but you just don see how you can and bruins fan maybe this year will different but doesn look good time will tell though lots more deleted randy randy coulman aries laboratory research assistant department computational science university saskatchewan coulman usask saskatoon
rec.sport.hockey	good for hockey bad for hockey article cellar org darling cellar org thomas darling writes jmd cbnewsm att com joseph dakes writes article ppdccinnbe dev null phys psu edu stimpy dev null phys psu edu article wxnf constellation ecn uoknor edu mfoster alliant backbo prefer the miami colons myself headline flames blow out colons would kevin dineen play for the miami colons flyers fan resent you making kevin dineen the butt your jokes just take moment digest and sure you see the humour thomas darling the cellar bbs public access system darling cellar org genie darling facthq truth thru technology anybody having problems following the thread sure ask the origonal poster rectify your misunderstanding koz lets caps
rec.sport.hockey	canadiens another stanley cup rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes pereira cam org dean pereira writes with the kind team montreal has now they can take the cup easily the only problem they have right now that everyone trying steal the show and play alone they need some massive teamwork this known the savard syndrome and are talking denis not serge team will ever win squat with the likes denis savard their lineup they are also little slump because long time hockey montreal canadiens announcer claude mouton died last tuesday and was rough everybody because has worked with the organization for years but know that excuse but the habs manage get some good teamwork and get into the spirit they should have problem winning may they could tell savard stay home and watch the games agree also think roy needs good kick sometimes that horrible loss the capitals last week yeeeech here cup this year sounds like cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported tht montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows philldelphia phillie will send eric lindros ottawa and ottawa will give first round pick montreal personally can see philli giving lindros for anything here again this the same idiot who posted the gretzky trade toronto listen asshole just commenting what heard reported the sports news you notice skeptical comment sheesh thought this group wasfor conversation guess was wrong stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes ten years ago the number europeans the nhl was roughly quarter what now going into the season the numbers euros nhl teams have escalated the following stats canadians americans europeans here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick you know you absolutely right think should round all those players european descent and ship back where they came from let see with whom should start dunno lemieux hmmm sounds like has french blood him hey france part europe send that euro blooded boy back sheesh all for the creation european hockey league and let the bures and selannes the world play their own continent just don want them mine don think would hard find some native americans native canadians for that matter who would dispute your claim this great continent ours see you believe the anthropologists all immigrants some sort you really don think that mogilny bure selanne have improved the nhl then not sure you understand the game dan lyddy daniell cory berkeley edu university california berkeley don play hockey not too many brothers deion sanders
rec.sport.hockey	good for hockey bad for hockey prefer the miami colons myself headline flames blow out colons would kevin dineen play for the miami colons flyers fan resent you making kevin dineen the butt your jokes just take moment digest and sure you see the humour anybody having problems following the thread sure ask the origonal poster rectify your misunderstanding what about his rectum skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	too many european nhl here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick watching game between american and canadian team let say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky this north america isn disagree think the nhl should feature the best hockey talent the world regardless nationality have admit that when see players like gretzky and messier traded off the because the canadian teams can afford them have been know say only half seriously that probably better off had our own canadian hockey league for canadian players all for the creation european hockey league and let bures and selannes the world play their own continent just don want themon mine again doesn matter russian finnish mexican albertan new yorker black white korean martian plutoneon doesn matter any them can put leafs jersey they can put the puck stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc
rec.sport.hockey	good for hockey bad for hockey article hydra gatech edu gtd prism gatech edu hrivnak writes prefer the miami colons myself headline flames blow out colons would kevin dineen play for the miami colons flyers fan resent you making kevin dineen the butt your jokes just take moment digest and sure you see the humour anybody having problems following the thread sure ask the origonal poster rectify your misunderstanding what about his rectum bad jokes like that which draws crohns mean groans from the crowd don bother looking the appendix useless anyway just one more word advice you miami game stay away from any foods made with natural casings hockey hockey hockey joy joy joy stimpson kat stimpy dev null phys psu edu nagy physci psu edu nagy psu edu nagy crayola psu edu nagy love shack com and yeah ggn psuvm psu edu bitnet
rec.sport.hockey	ncaa finals winner ktgeiss miavx acs muohi writes lake state maine finals who won please post maine lssu terry
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl euro bashing article rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick watching game between american and canadian team let say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky this north america isn toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers euros other teams getting worse well live vancouver and hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket will completely throw now every time see the canucks play keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have carry him out stretcher the way not canucks fan begin with okay the stretcher remark was little carried away but the point that resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead canadians and some americans denies young canadians the opportunity play their north american league and instead gives europeans who aren even better hockey players all hype this european mystique sickening but until nhl owners get over canadian and american players will continue have fight harder get drafted into their own league with the numbers euros the nhl escalating the problem clearly only getting worse all for the creation european hockey league and let the bures and selannes the world play their own continent just don want them mine now into european player bashing what next more french canadiens yeah there idea let them french speaking canadiens have their own hockey league don want them are you crazy the nhl one the true international leagues and yes there are many europeans who deserve play the nhl and are better than some north americans look teemu for one glad see europeans the nhl and hope the nhl soon expands europe its nice see all these different people come together form the soon hockey teams richard rauser you have idea what you doing rauser sfu don worry about that professional wni outlaws this for living remember matter where you there you are banzai darryl brooks university buffalo bills sabres and magic
rec.sport.hockey	stan fischler the lester patrick awards lunch bill torrey mentioned that one his options next season president the miami team with bob clarke working for him the same dinner clarke said that his worst mistake philadelphia was letting mike keenan retrospect almost all players came realize that keenan knew what took win rumours are now circulating that keenan will back with the flyers nick polano sick being scapegoat for the schedule made for the red wings after all bryan murray approved gerry meehan and john muckler are worried over the sabres prospects assistant don lever says that the sabres have get their share now because quebec dynasty emerging the mighty ducks have declared that they will not throw money around loosely buy team oilers coach ted green remarked that there some guys around who can fill tie domi skates but none who can fill his helmet senators andrew mcbain told off security guard chicago stadium who warned him the stairs leading down the locker room mcbain mouthed off him after all being seasoned professional and tumbled down the entire steep flight gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	hockey hell article ekb noose ecn purdue edu rgemeinh separator ecn purdue edu richard gemeinhart wrote article mar ncsu edu fmsalvat eos ncsu edu frank mich salvatore writes originally from new york state and school north carolina yet don constantly gripe about the lack hockey wouldn some you who chose school the south realize most who gripe are clemson students that hockey isn quite popular south carolina when you chose school why did you all excuse all choose schools the south hockey was this important you not everyone has the luxury deciding college making sure the hockey coveraage what you want pittsburgh transplan when home and the coveraage sucks sports south didn even show the final game the stanley cup laast year while was happening they put ktape delay and cut the intermissions then went off the air when you move you take the good with the bad and deal with doesn mean thaat you can complain about was transplanted parents from the greater hartford area the greater cleveland ohio area this was not action choice the only hockey coverage could get there regularly was red wings and penguins explaining part why follow these teams today cleveland you couldn even find hockey scores the clock news because they figured that they didn have wasn sport least your parents didn move you idaho the only things that get any coverage there are football basketball and baseball patty
rec.sport.hockey	european russian hockey team addresses does anyone have the addresses any the following hockey teams located the czech slovak republics finland russia sweden any information how find these addresses would also appreciated aik assat brynas budejovice chelabinsk djurgarden dynamo eskulap espoo farjestad frolunda hpk hifk ilves jyp jihlava jokerit jokp kalpa khimik kladno kristall lada leksand litvinov lukko lulea malmo metallurg modo olomouc pardubice red army rogle skoda slovan soviet wings sparta spartak tps tappara trencin tuto vantaa vasteras yaroslavl zlin dee dee france ddf sgi com
rec.sport.hockey	memoriam dan kelly and danny gallivan article apr ists ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes article burke burkemac oshag edu burke edu burke writes when talking about hockey broadcasters let give moment silence remember the louis blues great dan kelly many you may have heard him the late and early cbs used hockey night canada intermissions with another recently deceased great danny gallivan the canadiens loved dan kelly was usa when first got hooked hockey back wasn always spot top the play and wasn overly cute but those pipes that lusty barrel chested voice pipsqueak was unlike some fellas know rode into hockey mania the coattails gretzky and the boys the bus first finals saw the islanders sweep them but never forget the night year later when the oilers closed out home the pandemonium the smoke from million sparklers the long empty net goal near the end and dan kelly letting the crowd reaction tell the story for few long seconds then that voice barking through the din dave lumley sews for edmonton sounds stupid but that early for hockey memory will always bring thrill since then grown lot more jaded about the game but was really saddened dan kelly passing was one the good guys brian adams reno
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions article qhinnsm senator bedfellow mit edu boudreau athena mit edu carol boudreau writes the smythe this one the toughest for call because have put personal bias aside calgary think lot depends who wins the division winnipeg will move into third the end the season and the first place winner will have clear advantage will lot easier build momentum against team like the kings whoever plays the kings the first round will take the division much hurts have pick division winner vancouver canucks have disagree with you this one think vancouver will bure goes and continues his goal scoring slump then they won even make out the first round think the kings will make out the first round regardless who they play they seem doing pretty well even with that bad game against minnesota saturday think either calgary los angeles win the smythe the conference finals wales conference trophy islanders and bruins will fight the end but think the islanders have enough steam overtake the bruins seven campbell conference trophy walk for vancouver maybe but definately not stanley cup final islanders and vancouver islanders will have nothing left this point and will succumb fairly easily the canucks stanley cup champion vancouver canucks still have disagree with you here think pittsburg get the hat trick stanley cups they just look toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo good hope you have enjoyed predictions hope they are not all correct calgary neither well may the best team win all pittsburg that just worth message from the terminal carol boudreau boudreau athena mit edu
rec.sport.hockey	ncaa hockey final haven seen anyone post this will the honors maine beat lssu milwaukee saturday night was quite game maine stormed lead the first and looked like they might run away with maine first goal came inside the first thirty seconds the game lssu came back the end the period cut the lead lssu came out the second dominating the play particularly along the boards the play went quickly with the refs running holds barred type game lssu scored three more unanswered goals lead the end the second now looked like lssu might just walk away with the game coach walsh maine replaced the starting goalie dunham with snow who won the game against michigan snow proved much more aggressive goalie the third period like the second belonged the team behind maine scored three unanswered goals span five minutes after the four minute mark they were all scored jim montgomery the tournament mvp and all assisted paul kariya the last minute the game bears highlighting the change snow also proved the difference the end with one minute and with the lssu goalie pulled snow dueled with lssu forward amazing set moves both snow won was great way end the game this year three championships games were sold out last year about one month the bradley center holds approximately douglas peterson have peterson pms pms ford com you safety laboratories department driven ford motor company lately
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu writes ten years ago the number europeans the nhl was roughly quarter what now going into the season the numbers euros nhl teams have escalated the following stats canadians americans europeans please note that these numbers are rounded off and taken from the top players each the teams source the vancouver sun here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick watching game between american and canadian team let say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky this north america isn toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers euros other teams getting worse well that why have expansion create more jobs nhl teams can afford import role players from europe they pick the stars but will continue build their teams around local players with the numbers euros the nhl escalating the problem clearly only getting worse all for the creation european hockey league and let the bures and selannes the world play their own continent love see european nhl division but can see happen for some time there simply not enough fan interest the moment several crucial markets like germany italy and france while sweden and finland probably can afford shell out for tickets the way american canadian fans call the minnesota north stars effect scandinavians love hockey but prefer watch local inexpensive hockey the nhl the national hockey league should love the idea though pan european channels such eurosport could bring the millions the american networks likely never will pay just don want them mine richard rauser you have idea what you doing rauser sfu don worry about that professional wni outlaws this for living remember matter where you there you are banzai
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes article zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo smale healthy uwaterloo bryan smale writes team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund fence sitting look philly record with eric and without there doubt soderstrom probably the biggest surprise eric true but fortunately didn get find out what they would like without recchi for games soderstrom absolutely shutouts games for rookie without lot defense front him runnerups galley and fedyk who are scoring ton over their career best but galley thinks paul coffey puts scoring ahead defending and fedyk has tailed off big time eklund was big question mark this year and was coming off injuries points games not bad all and recently been huge factor the wins they gotten eklund has never had point game season his career his production very typical for him how does qualify disappointment anything surprise choice would roussel went strictly what was expected players but never thought that had what takes goalie biggest disappointment bill dineen thought that was going the perfect coach for this young team instead made too many bad moves and imho has cost them enough games keep them out the playoffs this year any coach that thinks putting eric lindros the point power plays bright idea needs back coaching school pete clark rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner
rec.sport.hockey	flyers notes the flyers team that can beat any team any night showed the spectrum sunday night and dominated the maple leafs thoroughly route shutout tommy soderstrom will get credit for the shutout but barely broke sweat until the third period the flyers defense kept the leafs from mounting any serious attack injuries pelle eklund day day with bruised thigh roster moves jason bowen was added the lineup for his first nhl game jason was the flyers second pick the first round overall the entry draft years old lbs games with the tri city americans had goals assists and pim plays left wing and defense played defense this game although bobby taylor said that bill dineen was planning use him front well andre faust was returned hershey actually left after the second period the kings game flew albany got the game tying goal bears win and played again for hershey sunday night lines fedyk lindros recchi beranek brind amour dineen lomakin butsayev conroy acton brown galley mcgill yushkevich cronin carkner hawgood bowen tommy soderstrom goal acton replaced lomakin the period game summary the flyers played like this every night they the playoffs this year the flyers hit everything that moved they created scoring chance after scoring chance they snuffed out everything that the leafs tried jason bowen made good play his first nhl shift that almost created goal had the puck the top the left offensive circle all alone but instead taking the shot found brind amour crashing the net the other side perfect pass and good shot across daren puppa body should have been goal but puppa made great save reading the play garry galley gave the maple leafs ranked power play the first chance when hooked doug gilmour the flyers lowly ranked penalty killing unit was almost flawless the entire game and set the tone this kill the maple leafs got almost nothing but long unscreened shots and the defense swept away every rebound after the power play the flyers got goal ugly play rod brind amour gave the puck greg hawgood the right point and sent drive the net puppa made the save and kicked the rebound right into the feet josef beranek and bob rouse who were wrestling the slot beranek was able get his stick the puck and push out dineen who was skating into the slot from the right circle and lifted backhander over puppa for flyers lead the flyers kept the pressure and puppa was the only leaf keeping the flyers from building their lead for while eventually things settled down and defense prevailed each team got occasional scoring chance but the goalies were strong bowen started giving some lindros like checks his own corners then lindros who was looking avenge hit foligno gave him thought had chance even the score had foligno lined center ice leaned into him and rode him into the center ice boards the only problem was that foligno was little far from the boards and mike mister mcgeough felt that warranted boarding call the leafs couldn get anything going the power play the flyers were very aggressive for change the kill with time running out the period recchi carried through the neutral zone and handed lindros they approached the leaf blue line they were crowd with wendell clark and jamie macoun lindros tried backhand pass recchi through the feet macoun that connected recchi but then clark checked recchi off the puck macoun then tried clear but was weak and went right mcgill who had manned the point drove from just inside the blue line macoun got his stick and deflected past his own goalie shots were flyers the period the flyers finally got their first chance the power play when dave andreychuk tripped rod brind amour his offensive zone during the power play the flyers got cheated little when the puck popped into the air and eric gloved down but mcgeough thought hit his stick above his head could see from our seats the other end the ice that only hit his glove and the replay confirmed but the faceoff went the other end time was running out the advantage lindros found galley with pass across the goal mouth but puppa made the save the rebound kicked back the right corner where recchi picked passed out eric crashing through the right circle and eric one timed past puppa with the assist recchi moves past bobby clarke season the second best one season total for flyer eric moves all time flyers rookie scoring with points mike eastwood took down conroy give the flyers another chance the power play not much pressure before garry galley ended the power play with slash not much happened the although the leafs had most the possession the flyers smothered the leafs short power play tempers flared little bowen and pearson got roughing minors keith acton got bloody face dave mcllwain then took dive and got greg hawgood hooking minor set the replay showed that hawgood stick stopped making contact with mcllwain long before spun around and fell again the flyers smothered the leafs power play led dimitri yushkevich bowen made thundering hit when came out the box pearson berehowski tried perplex everybody with his sloooowball had the puck the point and just trickled pass down the slot made all the flyers look silly nobody could get stick and got gilmour the side the net but soderstrom stoned him the flyers picked things offensively after the kill was over but didn get anything home shots were flyers the flyers were content with the goal lead the third period and they decided that tommy wanted shutout was going have work for little the flyers got most the scoring chances the first minutes the period but couldn get past puppa then the leafs got tired lindros making road kill out them and tempers flared each for doug gilmour and lindros unsportsmanlike conduct and each for glenn anderson and mcgill roughing all terry carkner then took kneeing penalty gilmour again the flyers smothered the leafs power play about the minute mark dave andreychuk got shot away from his left circle that got through soderstrom the puck was rolling side and luck would have turned away from the net instead turning towards think how rolling quarter inevitably starts lean one way the other seconds later rod brind amour tripped gilmour give the leafs another chance the power play the advantage after soderstrom stoned andreychuk while lying down andreychuk got the rebound through soderstrom but from behind the net and went straight through and was swept away one his defensemen they kept the pressure but soderstrom was equal and preserved the shutout recchi cross checked ken baumgartner get tempers hot and start brawl punches thrown recchi got the initial minor krushelnyski baumgartner and lindros each got roughing minors rouse and beranek expressed their mutual dislike for each other and got each for slashing set another mike eastwood shoved down ryan mcgill the flyers zone they were battling for the puck and while mcgill was down ran his stick across mcgill face the flyers were not happy with that all conroy paired with berehowski and started throwing punches upward well held his own much the delight the crowd each got couple punches before going down head and got standing penalties eastwood cross check game clark carkner each berehowski and conroy each fighting major penalty for the rest the game for the flyers the had interest stting the lead hawgood galley and brind amour played catch until hawgood found dineen all alone the left circle controlled the puck and blasted past puppa that was all the fireworks tommy soderstrom would not face another shot puppa did but kept the flyers off the board flyers shots were flyers the probably the strongest game seen from the flyers since the all star break shutout number for soderstrom all since tied for most the nhl but played fewer games than belfour the goalie can remember that tied with next the winnipeg selannes tuesday night winnipeg the flyers cannot eliminated they win but loss coupled with islander win that night washington would the official end flyers points the season games last year they had points games under they need least points their last games improve that only percentage points under better than under tragic number holds points with games left the tragic number for points watched the rangers blow third period lead home lose before finished this why points instead well the flyers will win the tie breaker they catch them whereas the islanders win tie breakers against the flyers and need only tie the rangers could crumble down the stretch they play the devils the pens twice the flyers and finish with games against the caps guess place could the goal for the team focus flyers team record watch eric lindros goals assists points rookie records club record goals club record points eric lindros dave poulin brian propp brian propp ron flockhart ron flockhart dave poulin eric lindros bill barber pelle eklund mark recchi goals assists points club record goals club record points reggie leach bobby clarke tim kerr mark recchi tim kerr bobby clarke mark recchi bill barber rick macliesh bobby clarke bill barber rick macliesh reggie leach flyers career years player points best prior season mark recchi penguins rod brind amour flyers garry galley kings brent fedyk red wings that all for now pete clark rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner
rec.sport.hockey	strange phenomens nhl was team leaders article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes apr ists ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes implicitly you are assuming that goals scored against winnipeg with selanne the ice can blamed him roger forward winnipeg has lousy defensive record anyway let put another way john cullen terrible what your excuse for him that his powerplay points don count neither selanne are you comparing cullen salami would say that that valid winnipeg such lousy defensive team then why the hell does salami stand around the other team blueline when the puck his own end thought that was comparing cullen teemu sel nne always thought that salami some sort sausage but you dear roger are able see salami the ice playing hockey don know what but you surely should something and very quickly maybe you think that you keep talking some rubbish after some time everybody will consider really true you should take care your leafs they surely need more what does best score refer you comment above some our finnish friends who have watched him play claim that can play solid two way game would have say that this style contribution would more conducive winning don you think least have seen him playing now selanne grandstanding goal suck did you see the way parades around with his arms outstretched after scoring goal you would think the messiah had returned during the latest philly game the leaf players didn parade philly crunched them maybe you need some more two way players who can score too cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian just cordially hannu jets teemu teppo tappara canadiens blackhawks
rec.sport.hockey	trade rumor montreal ottawa phillie article mweintr auvm american edu mweintr auvm american edu says also sprach slegge kean ucs mun tsn sportsdesk just reported that the ottawa sun has reported that montreal will send players million including vin damphousse and brian bellows phillidelphia phillie will send eric lindros ottawa and ottawa will give first round pick montreal this true will most likely depend whether not ottawa gets choose overall can ottawa afford lindros salary personally can see philli giving lindros for anything they didn give away that much quebec just trade him away again not mention that lindros seems huge draw phillie and that represents successful future for the franchise ottawa may better off taking the players from montreal for the pick stephen legge slegge kean ucs munc two things didn the trade deadline pass two weeks ago the flyers would never ever ever give lindros simple that with soderstrom and roussel why the hell would the flyers want pick older and slumping roy byw could come with group players they trade for but they wouldn from the same team flyers cup mike yes rush marillion elp genesis king crimson dream theater beatles mike weintraub aka jvi irc courageous convictions mweintr american edu will drag the dream jedi wave cerf net into existence the american university washington rush not limbaugh philadelphia flyers vancouver canucks philadelphia phillies john runski jer psuvm
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo smale healthy uwaterloo bryan smale writes was thinking about who each the teams were the mvps biggest surprises and biggest disappointments this year now these are just observations and are admittedly lacking because have not had opportunity see all the teams the same amount anyway mvp most valuable player his team both terms points and terms leadership can win without him biggest surprise the player who rose above expectation the player that may have raised the level his game new height even that new level doesn necessarily warrant allstar berth includes those players who the outset the season may not even have been the team plans biggest disappointment the player from whom expected more picked denis savard montreal because with the new emphasis offence brought demers shouldn savard have done better team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment boston bruins oates sweeney wesley buffalo sabres lafontaine mogilny audette jinx calgary flames roberts reichel petit chicago blackhawks roenick ruuttu goulet detroit red wings yzerman chaisson kozlov edmonton oilers manson buchberger mellanby hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey minnesota north stars modano tinordi not expected back broten montreal canadiens muller lebeau savard new jersey devils stevens semak maclean new york islanders turgeon king finally marois new york rangers messier kovalev bourque ottawa senators maciver baker jelinek philadelphia flyers lindros recchi fedyk galley eklund pittsburgh penguins lemieux tocchet even for him jagr quebec nordiques sakic ricci kovalenko pearson san jose sharks kisio gaudreau maley louis blues shanahan joseph ron sutter tampa bay lightening bradley bradley creighton kasper toronto maple leafs gilmour potvin ellett anderson vancouver canucks bure nedved finally momesso washington capitals hatcher bondra cote elynuik winnipeg jets selanne selanne druce mentioned top these are impressions from where sit would welcome any opinions from those fans nearer their teams other words anywhere away from toronto newspaper bryan
rec.sport.hockey	realignment well here nhl the year got these from very reliable source dream some years ago and although initially thought had just been taking too many too strong drugs now seems the realization has really begun you can see the league has already started move this direction the walt disney conference anaheim mighty chipmunks franchise name changed after each new kings hockey movie flames seen some that san jose sharks san diego bruins tijuana red wings detroit hockey team will follow its car industry dallas stars houston oilers texas rangers seattle canucks the norm green conference alabama white hawks biloxi blues tampa bay lightning miami blades helsinki jets you heard them starting getting used the anthem montreal quebecois there will canada atlanta devils orlando penquins key west islanders hartford whalers the whalers will never move huh palm beach capitals now that the anahaim team becomming real really beginning believe the rest the message sure the future will turn you into believers too after the nhl will abandond ice rinks expensive cool down the rinks the subtropics and the locals hardly know what ice anyway nhl will become roller skating hockey league that way can create more public interest the game when local supporteres can play the game their back yards hope just out mind there won really disney team anaheim will there the stars aren really moving
rec.sport.hockey	nhl swedes stats april scoring stats for the swedish nhl players april mats sundin watch most points during season kent nilsson calgary flames mats naslund montreal canadiens mats sundin quebec nordiques hakan loob calgary flames kent nilsson calgary flames kent nilsson calgary flames most goals during season hakan loob calgary flames kent nilsson calgary flames kent nilsson calgary flames tomas sandstrom kings mats naslund montreal canadiens mats sundin quebec nordiques most assists during season kent nilsson calgary flames mats naslund montreal canadiens borje salming toronto maple leafs mats sundin quebec nordiques kent nilsson calgary flames borje salming toronto maple leafs thomas steen winnipeg jets ulf samuelsson watch most penalty minutes during season ulf samuelsson pittsburgh penguins through ulf samuelsson pittsburgh penguins ulf samuelsson pittsburgh penguins kjell samuelsson philadelphia flyers ulf samuelsson hartford whalers ulf samuelsson hartford whalers borje salming toronto maple leafs name team born pts comment mats sundin que ulf dahlen min thomas steen win johan garpenlov sjs fredrik olausson win tomas sandstrom lak per erik eklund phi injured calle johansson was nicklas lidstrom det tommy sjodin min ulf samuelsson pit mikael andersson tbl michael nylander hfd roger johansson cgy jan erixon nyr peter andersson nyr kjell samuelsson pit tommy albelin njd per djoos nyr binghampton niclas andersson que halifax thomas forslund cgy salt lake patrik carnback mon injured patrik kjellberg mon fredericton rank last week rank jersey number position born goals assists pts points points scored since last posted list goalie stats name team born tommy soderstrom phi res gaa sog pit chi tbl pit was lak sjs cgy edm was nyr edm cgy bos det bos nyi hfd pit nyr ott mtl njd njd cgy van min det pit was njd nyi was min pit njd nyr que lak tor res result shots saves games played minutes played goals against gaa goals against average sog shots goal saves saving percentage shutouts assists staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	spelling error the stanley cup turgeo plymouth edu writes was reading newspaper tidbit that mentioned that there grammatical error the stanley cup this newspaper the union leader manchester new hampshire stated that one the years that the new york islanders won the cup the printing the actual cup stated new york ilanders can anyone verify this forgot the exact year that this supposedly occured any die hard islander fans know about this the reason why asking because the paper not very reliable call the union mis leader randy plymouth state college turgeo plymouth edu speaking spelling errors the cup wonder the pittsburgh made the cup you know how funny people can about spelling pittsburgh warren arbogast darden visual communications with miles behind them university virginia and more
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes ten years ago the number europeans the nhl was roughly quarter what now going into the season the numbers euros nhl teams have escalated the following stats canadians americans europeans please note that these numbers are rounded off and taken from the top players each the teams source the vancouver sun here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick watching game between american and canadian team let say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky this north america isn toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers euros other teams getting worse well the answer simple that you dislike russians live vancouver and hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket will completely throw now every time see the canucks play keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglass hard they have carry him out stretcher the way not canucks fan begin with okay the stretcher remark was little carried away but the point that resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead canadians and some americans denies young canadians the opportunity play their north american league and instead gives europeans who aren even better hockey players all hype this european mystique sickening but until nhl owners get over canadian and american players will continue have fight harder get drafted into their own league with the numbers euros the nhl escalating the problem clearly only getting worse and where would canadian hockey today without the europeans dont say that the european influence the league has been all bad for the game mean look the way you play these days less fights and more hockey imho canadian hockey has had positive curve development since the when the game was more brute than beauty all for the creation european hockey league and let the bures and selannes the world play their own continent look you don like finns either just don want them mine too bad almost all you northamericans originates from europe hmmm and what kind name rauser doesn sound very canadian when analyzing teams like italy france and great britain you find that lot their players are canadians with double citizenship richard rauser you have idea what you doing rauser sfu don worry about that professional wni outlaws this for living remember matter where you there you are banzai tomas nopp tel ellemtel telecom systems labs fax box email tomas nopp eua ericsson alvsjo snailmail
rec.sport.hockey	wanted mail order hockey equipment could anyone recommend mail order distributor for hockey equipment thanks advance wayne wayne westerhold wester rtp com data general corporation research triangle park
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes ten years ago the number europeans the nhl was roughly quarter what now going into the season the numbers euros nhl teams have escalated the following stats canadians americans europeans please note that these numbers are rounded off and taken from the top players each the teams source the vancouver sun here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick watching game between american and canadian team let say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky this north america isn toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers euros other teams getting worse well from where come from canada borshevsky sounds more canadian than smith anyways crawl back into the hole you crawled out the nba doesn care where they get basketball players from major league baseball doesn give damn where they get baseball players from except cuba that canada imminent danger being overtaken the primary supplier players sweden finland the czech republic and slovakia are all relatively small countries and cannot really produce players greater rate than they are already producing them and the potential influx from the former soviet union severely blunted because the system has been raided and starved for finances and will take decade two recover and become real threat and the will just maintain its slow increase canada should continue supply plus the top hockey players the world for the forseeable future besides need the european hockey market hockey take its rightful place besides soccer the two predominant world sports and since soccer essentially boring unlike hockey live vancouver and hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket will completely throw now every time see the canucks play keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have carry him out stretcher the way not canucks fan begin with okay the stretcher remark was little carried away but the point that resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead canadians and some americans denies young canadians the opportunity play their north american league and instead gives europeans who aren even better hockey players all hype this european mystique sickening but until nhl owners get over canadian and american players will continue have fight harder get drafted into their own league with the numbers euros the nhl escalating the problem clearly only getting worse canadians are under threat the european numbers will soon saturate they haven already and the time russia comes online again the nhl should world league and there will many more teams stock and many more jobs for canadian hockey players the near team the percentage canadians will mostly decline because americans not because europeans all for the creation european hockey league and let the bures and selannes the world play their own continent just don want them mine crawl into hole and die gerald
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article apr pasteur berkeley edu daniell cory berkeley edu daniel lyddy writes you know you absolutely right think should round all those players european descent and ship back where they came from let see with whom should start dunno lemieux hmmm sounds like has french blood him hey france part europe send that euro blooded boy back don you americans study history the french settled north america early before the british lemieux can probably trace back his north american heritage back lot further than most gerald
rec.sport.hockey	lindros will traded article apr node hub org shadow node hub org jay chu writes true rumor fact big three way deal eric lindros going ottawa senators and senators get mill from montreal montreal gets alexander daigle the first round pick from senators philly gets damphousse bellow patrick roy and draft pick another person incapable rational thought gerald
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes ten years ago the number europeans the nhl was roughly quarter what now going into the season the numbers euros nhl teams have escalated the following stats canadians americans europeans xenophobic trash deleted all for the creation european hockey league and let the bures and selannes the world play their own continent just don want them mine you going those extremes guess you better start packing because unless you native north american this isn your continent either lori
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played mon april hartford rangers first period hartford cunneyworth janssens greig rangers graves turcotte zubov second period rangers kovalev turcotte graves hartford sanderson cassels rangers amonte andersson vanbiesbrouck third period rangers messier amonte andersson hartford sanderson cassels hartford nylander ladouceur hartford verbeek zalapski hartford power play special goals total scorer pts cassels cunneyworth greig janssens ladouceur nylander sanderson verbeek zalapski rangers power play scorer pts amonte andersson graves kovalev messier turcotte vanbiesbrouck zubov
rec.sport.hockey	what was ray doing daveb thewho east sun com dave brewer writes yesterday fracus between rob ray and brent hughes was the camera angle was ray actually punching hughes where appeared was punching him for those that didn see the game was several inches below the belt and punched him there quite few times dreadful also why did poulin get four minutes been watching playing hockey for good long time now and seen players with questionable tactics but never have seen what ray did sunday this guy gets all time loser award one thing repeatedly cross check someone the back the neck when they are down another thing have fist fight with someones balls ray should thrown out the league what hole steve
rec.sport.hockey	nhl results for games played nhl results for games played standings patrick adams norris smythe xpit ymon ydet yvan was ybos ychi ycal yque ytor yla nyi ybuf stl ywin nyr har min edm phl ott clinched division title clinched playoff berth hartford whalers new york rangers period har cunneyworth janssens greig nyr graves turcotte zubov period nyr kovalev turcotte graves har sanderson cassels nyr amonte andersson vanbiesbrouck period nyr messier amonte andersson har sanderson cassels har nylanders ladouceur har verbeek zalapski powerplay opportunities whalers rangers shots goal whalers rangers hartford whalers gosselin shots saves new york rangers vanbiesbrouck shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft week standings here are the standings after the april update leaving for japan hours and won back until april consequently will not post the week results until april email sent between april and april will processed using the numbers available april andrew usenet hockey draft standings week posn team pts proj cash last posn dave wessels gilles carmel bob hill the awesome oilers seppo kemppainen mak the knife paranjape hillside raiders jan stein rangers destiny this years model tapio repo frank big fish the underachievers thin ice lindros losers littlest giants flames mopar muscle men die penguin bandwaggoners samuel lau calgary alberta general accounting office migods menschen boomer boys delaware wombats wellsy buttheads dec rocky mountain high fife flyers gerald olchowy fluide glacial gaoler smegheads the young and the skateless artic storm sam his dogs neural netters youngbucs soft swedes jeff horvath yan the man loke milton keynes kings hamster from hoboken fleur lys ice legion simmonac kuehn crushers the finnish force streaks legion hoth goaldingers grant marven bemybaby overachievers skriko wolves bozrah bruins brian bergman lippe randy coulman lamp lighters dave snell steven and mark dream team houdini magicians real bad toe jam rec sport hockey choices iowa hockeyes buffalo soldiers indianapolis bennies bloom county all stars tom phil and kev karma dudes aik exiles doug bowles bruins smithw the great pumpkin shooting seamen frank worthless non invisible inc brad gibson chubby checkers plp fools john zupancic staffan axelsson david wong kortelaisen kovat chocolate rockets ken decruyenaere cougarmania garryola derrill dastardly dozen namers the campi machine gary bergman fan club fisher dirtbags kodiaks arsenal maple leafs the kamucks bsc oranienburg bloodgamers ellis islanders mombasa mosquitos edelweiss zachmans wingers wormtown woosbags dirty white socks hurricane andrew larry votenooct bruce rented mules king suke teem kanada bjoern leaguen frank follies neil younger het schot hard psv dartmouth pond slime stanford ice hawks spuds mark sanders oklahoma stormchasers timo ojala nesbitt aye carumba kokudo keikaku bunnies blue talon apricot fuzzfaces haral garys team late night with david letterman arctic circles the lost poots seattle pftb boutch dirty rotten puckers flying kiwis cluster buster scott glenn dree hobbs bruins groupe team gold closet boy boys gary bill pens dynasty mckees rocks rockers tim rogers andy wong buttered waffles bob blues princeton canucks habs wembley lostweekenders wild hearted sons einstein rock band tap goddess fermentation hunters collectors joel fleishman furleys furies convex stars les nordiques team hubert hockey homeboys book danno bushbabies riding the pine sundogs jeff nimeroff slap shot marco daryl turner the dreamers east city jokers flowers satan choice the leafs rule pierre mailhot voyageurs spinal tap san jose mahi mahi stimpy adg zeta jeff bachovchin bulldogs lana inc big bad bruins mike mac cormack sydney can darse billings chappel chumps jimparker republican dirty tricksters enforcers absolut lehigh yellow plague and the bunch misfits ninja turtles great expectations cherry bombers henry bar robyns team team melville umpire life acadien kaufbeuren icebreakers firebirds jayson kinky pucks cobra killers outlaws kuta papercuts killer apes darman dragons roger smith those few weeks hurt thundering herd ikea wholesale believe dont fred mckim hurricane creeping death knee injuries the club crazy euros frack attack todd turkeys ryan renegades cafall and crew pig vomit ice strykers fighting geordies cdn stuck alabama ship way swillbellies chris death banko beer rangers flames laubsters dayton bomber zipper heads ninja bunnies joliet inmates widefield white wolves daves team great scott south carolina tiger paws sandy sabres florida tech burgh team the ice holes leos blue chips for xtc roadrunners mudville kings redliners pat phillips new jersey rob stewart clamen demon spawn sunnyvale storm allez les blues for sale hockey club petes picks rinaco brenz revenge dinamo riga andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft week price list here the price list for the week april april andrew buy sell pts team player pit mario lemieux buf pat lafontaine bos adam oates det steve yzerman wpg teemu selanne tor doug gilmour nyi pierre turgeon buf alexander mogilny phi mark recchi luc robitaille que mats sundin pit kevin stevens stl craig janney van pavel bure chi jeremy roenick que joe sakic pit rick tocchet stl brett hull bos joe juneau tor dave andreychuk pit ron francis mtl vincent damphousse min mike modano wpg phil housley cgy theoren fleury buf dale hawerchuk mtl kirk muller nyr mark messier stl brendan shanahan det dino ciccarelli jari kurri pit jaromir jagr mtl brian bellows wsh peter bondra hfd geoff sanderson cgy robert reichel que steve duchesne det paul coffey det sergei fedorov brian bradley phi rod brind amour pit larry murphy hfd andrew cassels hfd pat verbeek tony granato wsh mike ridley nyi steve thomas mtl stephan lebeau wsh dale hunter que mike ricci bos ray bourque wsh kevin hatcher kelly kisio van cliff ronning stl jeff brown tor nikolai borschevsky claude lemieux min dave gagner min russ courtnall nyr tony amonte van murray craven jimmy carson cgy gary suter min ulf dahlen van geoff courtnall bos dmitri kvartalnov wsh michal pivonka nyi derek king nyi benoit hogue que owen nolan chi steve larmer alexander semak nyr mike gartner stl nelson emerson chi chris chelios phi eric lindros wsh iafrate van trevor linden mike donnelly wsh dmitri khristich pit joe mullen cgy joe nieuwendyk stephane richer wpg alexei zhamnov wpg thomas steen que andrei kovalenko van petr nedved nyr adam graves hfd zarley zalapski det ray sheppard tor glenn anderson johan garpenlov ott norm maciver mtl mike keane pit shawn mceachern rob blake wayne gretzky phi garry galley phi brent fedyk nyi pat flatley cgy sergei makarov bernie nicholls det steve chiasson chi steve smith que scott young det paul ysebaert nyr sergei nemchinov valeri zelepukin wsh pat elynuik john tucker phi kevin dineen van greg adams wpg darrin shannon nyr darren turcotte scott stevens chi christian ruuttu van dixon ward wpg fredrik olausson nyr olczyk wpg keith tkachuk nyi jeff norton tor john cullen van anatoli semenov cgy macinnis bos stephen leach chi brent sutter mtl denis savard hfd terry yake john maclean wsh sylvain cote edm petr klima edm shayne corson tomas sandstrom edm craig simpson mtl gilbert dionne nyi vladimir malakhov bos dave poulin stl kevin miller alexei zhitnik que martin rucinsky wpg evgeny davydov wsh kelly miller edm doug weight edm dave manson hfd patrick poulin chi michel goulet phi pelle eklund min mark tinordi mtl mathieu schneider cgy paul ranheim edm todd elik bos vladimir ruzicka ott sylvain turgeon tor dave ellett det niklas lidstrom det bob probert peter stastny nyr esa tikkanen ott brad shaw tor wendel clark buf yuri khmylev van sergio momesso ott bob kudelski nyr brian leetch bobby holik tor rob pearson min mike mcphee nyr alexei kovalev adam creighton edm zdeno ciger corey millen chi dirk graham tor peter zezel bos ted donato que valery kamensky mtl gary leeman det keith primeau buf wayne presley min neal broten bos steve heinze phi josef beranek chi stephane matteau buf richard smehlik tor dmitri mironov nyi brian mullen phi dmitri yushkevich chi brian noonan edm scott mellanby pat falloon stl igor korolev nyr james patrick buf petr svoboda ott mark lamb mikael andersson nyi scott lachance edm kevin todd wsh bob carpenter tor bill berg wpg sergei bautin mtl benoit brunet nyi david volek hfd mikael nylander min brent gilchrist nyr phil bourque nyi ray ferraro hfd yvon corriveau edm martin gelinas det jim hiller nyi darius kasparaitis phi andrei lomakin buf donald audette roman hamrlik mark pederson pit martin straka janne ojanen ott tomas jelinek chi joe murphy nyr peter andersson steve kasper bos cam neely min bobby smith ray whitney hfd robert petrovicky buf viktor gordijuk que mikhail tatarinov tor joe sacco peter ahola chi rob brown bos glen murray hfd tim kerr wsh reggie savage stl vitali prokhorov robert lang edm shaun van allen bos jozef stumpel min dan quinn pit bryan fogarty det viacheslav kozlov stan drulia min brian propp mtl olav petrov wsh jason woolley claude vilgrain van igor larionov brent gretzky ott alexei yashin que peter forsberg edm dean mcammond wsh brian sakic wsh randy burridge mtl patrick kjellberg cgy cory stillman chi sergei krivokrasov buf jason dawe andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool mentioned the rules posting will out town until the day before the entry deadline won able respond your messages until april would grateful someone could repost the rules and instructions for the playoff pool sometime next week for the benefit those who missed the first two postings thanks andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick watching game between american and canadian team let say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky this north america isn toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers euros other teams getting worse well sick too watching all american names like gretzky etc which names you accept sitting bull and dances with wolves north america what are you doing here jyri
rec.sport.hockey	tps will stay the top mighty ones get mightier tps the finnish champions are getting still stronger just heard some news according which tps has acquired the next finnish hockey superstar jere lehtinen from kiekko espoo there are also some rumours about erik kakko reipas and marko jantunen kalpa being traded tps both this players are currently the finnish olympic team think that jantunen drafted the nhl too btw juha nen centre hpk drafted the jets during last year has reached the top level among finnish centres had very good playoff games against tps hannu jets teemu teppo tappara canadiens blackhawks
rec.sport.hockey	personal ulf samuellsson dear ulf would you possibly consider helpimontreal canadiens fans everywhere throwing knee check the direction denis savard during your upcoming game against montreal just can seem win with him thanx alot pete pete harper baby baby don you hesitate cause just can wait patchman wpi wpi edu lady once you get down knees then you can what you please harper jake wpi edu come and love skid row come and love
rec.sport.hockey	division zero error jack nickalus tournament golf was playing this golf game and something interesting happened the hole drove the ball down the fairway when the ball was mid flight the game completely froze couple seconds later the screen went completely black with error message large bubble letters that said division zero thought was funny considering computer programmer and had never seen error like this actual video game system like sega nintendo even atari intellevision years ago yeah after the message there was also what must have been address hexadecimal forget the exact hex code that was given has this happened anyone else must have game shouldn have been the only one this thanks randy psc turgeo plymouth edu
rec.sport.hockey	observations the lindros trade like ottawa would stupid enough get lindros why you think quebec traded him lindros would personal strike again maybe should talk ottawa mgmt about arranging such trade that xenophobe thankfully nobody agreed with him publicly maybe should look baseball the supposed american pasttime look all the damn latin americans playing there they should all deported they aren american add sarcasm taste roger wow for once agree hope this isn sign things come become ranting lunatic who talks about nothing but the leafs being the best the campbell the rangers told someone that nothing that happened the patrick would surprise anymore lied how the hell can team into washington earn shutout then come back home and lose pitiful hartford the absolute pinnacle mediocrity can stand from what read the goalie blame this time beezer played pretty poorly smith talking about calling corey hirsch from binghamton everybody pointing fingers this definitely not the same team which wanted prove itself washington now nothing that happens the patrick will surprise yeah right keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you over head have yours platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.hockey	sad day for hockey dvb ick writes foul any illegal contact with the other player his stick with your body stick you get you are out for the game never seen game where one player has committed penalties something like this would require more attention the referee unsportsmanlike contact intentional foul this inlcludes all the current flavours roughing fighting and boarding you get two you are thrown out the game and fined technical foul bad mouthing the ref player coach penalty shot awarded two and you are thrown out the game besides the penalty shot for one technical the team gets penalties period the opposing team gets penalty shot for every additional one until the end the period the victim gets two shots she was the act shooting when the foul ocured this works well for several reasons first penalty shots are the most exciting thing hockey right follows that the more the better next when the player setting for penalty shot the network can take commercial finally with only three penalties the network announcers don meredith dick vitale john madden pat summerall and marv levy among others will able tell the viewers what happened before the announcer says but you creating scoring opportunity where there might not have been one before can see the relationship between free throws awarded after certain number fouls but obviously easier score basketball there are more opportunities basketball team scores points that least fifty chances made the average number shots taken each team hockey game and this total guess probably around and team lucky capitalize maybe them you have some good ideas concerning the other penalties but think that player should awarded penalty shot only when they had chance score and was interfered with also later the post you talked about how boring the nba game you attended was that play was stopped too often wouldn your penalty shot rule take more time during hockey game matt att uva
rec.sport.hockey	lemieux nhlpa and other thoughts think that nhlpa the best video game available now course many things could done better but really appreciate that the names players are the real ones matter lacks some logos still playing since november leading different teams the finals and making scorers from the same team compete for the top scoring yesterday won the title using toronto against hartford games two played the playoffs games fashion minutes for each period and the best scorer and shooter was gilmour shots remember well iskander ayari email iskander ayari loria ayari loria
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article apr morgan com scairns fsg com writes mvp surprise disappointment new york rangers messier kovalev bourque gartner zubov bourque bourque the penguin must laugh his head off every time thinks the rangers and this loser scott cairns email scairns fsg com fusion systems group usmail broadway new york new york usa new york standard disclaimers apply hope the future americans are thought warlike vicious people because then bet lot high schools would pick americans their mascot jack handey please have care with phil liked him lot pittsburgh didn score lot you look his stats last year but worked his butt off was his speed that created opportunities the offensive zone that allowed the pens utilize his potential haven been paying attention him this year can say know what you objecting has been out with injuries though hasn and the offense isn there there not much his speed will for you like said created opportunities but didn score much thought the money offered from the rangers was little high and did the pens guess joseph stiehm article apr morgan com scairns fsg com writes mvp surprise disappointment new york rangers messier kovalev bourque gartner zubov bourque bourque the penguin must laugh his head off every time thinks the rangers and this loser scott cairns email scairns fsg com fusion systems group usmail broadway new york new york usa new york standard disclaimers apply hope the future americans are thought warlike vicious people because then bet lot high schools would pick americans their mascot jack handey please have care with phil liked him lot pittsburgh didn score lot you look his stats last year but worked his butt off was his speed that created opportunities the offensive zone that allowed the pens utilize his potential haven been paying attention him this year can say know what you objecting has been out with injuries though hasn and the offense isn there there not much his speed will for you like said created opportunities but didn score much thought the money offered from the rangers was little high and did the pens guess joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes anyways crawl back into the hole you crawled out the nba doesn care where they get basketball players from major league baseball doesn give damn where they get baseball players from except cuba that mlb perfectly willing take players from cuba they just have defect first sort like the situation used with russian czech etc hockey players until the political situation those countries changed major league baseball has told the blue jays and the expos not sign oscar linares think that his name canada does not have the restrictions against cubans that the has and other major league teams have told the canadian teams that they would very unhappy the expos the blue jays would this cubans players would not have defect play canada and could play the home games for the expos and blue jays without any trouble gerald
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion article apr morgan com scairns fsg com writes messier joke this year bad back not withstanding his play the reason the rangers will the golf course couple weeks gartner choice the guy works his butt off every game kovalev surprise played adequately but bad defensively kovalev too talented player play for roger nielson roger needs players who can think for themselves and can only skate straight lines and down the ice dudley and nielson are the only two coaches bad enough the league take talents like mogilny and kovalev and not know how turn them into bure and selanne was predicted preseason perhaps pull alex mogilny couple years and surprise then zubov wasn expected make out the minors this season and owing the number injuries has proved very pleasant surprise get muckler coach and kovalev will look like mogilny the trouble with the rangers that neil smith went out and got players like messier kovalev and graves who have been schooled taking the game their opponent and attacking while hiring coaches who are interested rope dope strategies you want the roger nielsons the world your coach you don out and get mark messier who old dog who can learn new tricks from known loser and you don waste your draft picks players like kovalev gerald gerald
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes major league baseball has told the blue jays and the expos not sign oscar linares think that his name linares has not defected pointed out mlb requires that the player defect first canada does not have the restrictions against cubans that the has and other major league teams have told the canadian teams that they would very unhappy the expos the blue jays would this what surprise long the pool talent not accessible all teams mlb won let few teams sign seems perfectly reasonable cubans players would not have defect play canada and could play the home games for the expos and blue jays without any trouble except that mlb won allow which all ever said sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.hockey	lindros will traded apr node hub org jay chu writes true rumor fact big three way deal eric lindros going ottawa senators and senators get mill from montreal montreal gets alexander daigle the first round pick from senators philly gets damphousse bellow patrick roy and draft pick sheesh the rumor mill strikes again but let just assume this were true question this what would montreal give san jose the sharks got first pick and took daigle tim irvin
rec.sport.hockey	sad day for hockey article finn abyss west sun com dvb ick david van beveren writes since all the penalties fall into three classes there should only three penalties foul any illegal contact with the other player his stick with your body stick you get you are out for the game unsportsmanlike contact intentional foul this inlcludes all the current flavours roughing fighting and boarding you get two you are thrown out the game and fined technical foul bad mouthing the ref player coach penalty shot awarded two and you are thrown out the game besides the penalty shot for one technical the team gets penalties period the opposing team gets penalty shot for every additional one until the end the period the victim gets two shots she was the act shooting when the foul ocured these new rule changes are great however think that your rules are much too complicated how will the normal average fan able count how many fouls player has and then would even have remember the names the players order determine who drew the foul and course there will have new sub positions like the power center who just sits the slot until the blue course puck comes near him and the shooting defenseman and the point defenseman finally able keep stats the best and the worst penalty shot takers since almost everyone the ice will getting fouled able see ulf samuellson and tie domi miss penalty shots like crazy keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you over head have yours platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion assist orion oac uci edu assist coordination site writes article zcii ftn watserv uwaterloo smale healthy uwaterloo bryan smale writes mvp biggest biggest suprise disappointment los angeles kings robitaille donnelly hrudey would have chosen alex zhitnik for biggest suprise they did expect that would become great defenseman but don think anyone knew that was going this impressive his rookie year his speed skating ability and puck control exceptional the one watch the kings agree with marty mcsorely and warren rychel running close second and third surprised more people have not noted knickle the biggest surprise even though personally not really rate him well the biggest disappointment has carson though this really unfair since too much was expected him the second biggest disappointment melrose with his adolescent handling the goaltending problems putting hrudey the bench for month just stupid did not contribute the team coming out its slump mvp surely robitaille dvb
rec.sport.hockey	new name for the stanley cup article apr sol ctr columbia edu phoenix startide ctr columbia edu ali lemer writes course need new position names for those unable remember the very complicated hockey terminology old name new name centre the guy the middle left wing the guy the left right wing the guy the right defenceman the guy back there goaltender the guy the net cage mother calls referee the guy with the whistle linesman the guy with the arms coach the guy the suit the head guy puck the black thing red line the line the middle blue line the line the side crease the place front the guy the net faceoff circle the round thing where they stand slot point over there must point accompany term bench the place where they sit penalty box the place where they sit when they bad bettman the guy the wrong sport stein the guy who should charge but isn course also need new names for the individual awards and other stuff like the president cup president cup the trophy given the best regular season team hart winner the most valuable player chosen from the guys the middle the guys the right the guys the left the guys back there and the guy the net though typically given only the guys the middle and the guys the left and the right norris winner the best guy the back the guy who was awarded for something even though not one the guys the middle the left the right nauseum keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs next time you over head have yours platter cmdr benjamin sisko
rec.sport.hockey	paul kuryia and canadian world team heard last night that paul kuryia will playing for the canadian world hockey team this year was local radio station when friend the familty called congratulate him the invitation meekly paul told the host that didn think they wanted out yet this morning heard that destined play line with lindros and recci unsure this one plays well this arena could the draft
rec.sport.hockey	jets fans hrivnak tabaracci article apr wam umd edu giant next wam umd edu thundarr writes after seeing hrivnak and tabarraci play who would you prefer have and how about tyler larter what ever happened him you know what answer will hrivnak the choice obvious skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	jets fans hrivnak tabaracci after seeing hrivnak and tabarraci play who would you prefer have and how about tyler larter what ever happened him you know what answer will hrivnak the choice obvious but have you seen tabaracci play yet his two starts and his relief effort for beaupre has looked mighty sharp don forget the shutout think let just four goals over eight periods play like hrivnak but might actually have give some credit david poile for change after this trade hopefully tabaracci starts against the isles tonight haven jinxed him frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	this year biggest and worst opinion bryan smale smale healthy uwaterloo writes was thinking about who each the teams were the mvps biggest surprises and biggest disappointments this year team biggest biggest team mvp surprise disappointment hartford whalers sanderson cassells corriveau votes fwiw team mvp pat verbeek fans goal mouth feeds but still has goals after terrible start and has been examplary team captain throughout tough couple seasons honorable mention nick kypreos and mark janssens probably more appropriate the unsung heroes category than mvp but kypreos goals pim has been the hardest working player the team and janssens underrated defensive center and checker guess place greater emphasis hard work than skill when determining value biggest surprise geoff sanderson had goals and points last season center then moved left wing and has far put goals and points now has new whaler record power play goals most all coming from the right wing faceoff circle his garden spot honorable mention andrew cassels and terry yake the kiddie quartet sanderson poulin nylander and petrovicky have been attracting the most attention but cassels just and will score close points this season has quite nicely assumed the role number one center the team and works very well with sanderson yake bounced around the minors for number seasons but still and will put about goals and points this season yake like sanderson started performing better offensively once was converted from center wing although lefty sanderson went the left wing and righty yake went the right side biggest disappointment hands down john cullen cullen had disasterous point season last year his first full season after the trade cullen started the season off summer back surgery and fell flat his face appropriate since spent all his whaler career flat his ass and whining about cullen scored just point games was clubhouse malcontent commanded the powerplay success percentage with sanderson and sulked his way out town worst all his year contract had three years left run one would give any more than the round draft pick the maple leafs offered hartford honorable mention steve konroyd also subpar after signing year contract eric weinrich who showed flashes competence but overall has played poorly jim mckenzie who was much better hockey player two seasons ago than now and frank pietrangelo who only seemed play well when sean burke was out for extended period and got make number starts row real live hartford whalers season ticket holder steveg cadkey com
rec.sport.hockey	maple leafs update for those leaf fans who are concerned the following players are slated for return thursday winnipeg toronto game peter zezel john cullen mark osborne and dave ellett are questionable return thursday all regular players who were injured including dimitri mironov should back for saturday home game against the flyers
rec.sport.hockey	does the faq crash your newsreader the faq sheet never fails crash newsreader the only way can avoid crashing and restarting the machine look the headers and avoid reading the faq does anyone else have problems reading the faq tim irvin the season near merciful end
rec.sport.hockey	testing 
rec.sport.hockey	canadiens another stanley cup article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard wrote rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes pereira cam org dean pereira writes with the kind team montreal has now they can take the cup easily the only problem they have right now that everyone trying steal the show and play alone they need some massive teamwork this known the savard syndrome and are talking denis not serge team will ever win squat with the likes denis savard their lineup they could tell savard stay home and watch the games life were simple savard has not played three the last four games and they are still playing like crap montreal problems run deeper than savard and mouton unfortunately hope they can get their act together before the playoffs the line their game coming against pittsburgh said the one they likely use for the playoffs let hope they can forget about the nice weather having and play hockey paul valin tel bell northern research ltd email pavalin bnr box station ottawa ontario canada only opinions
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article rauser sfu rauser fraser sfu richard john rauser writes here the point there are far too many europeans the nhl sick watching game between american and canadian team let say the red wings and the canucks and seeing names like bure konstantinov and borshevshky this north america isn toronto detriot quebec and edmonton are particularly annoying but the numbers euros other teams getting worse well gee you think winnipeg would tops that list what with regulars being european live vancouver and hear one more word about pavel bure the russian rocket will completely throw now every time see the canucks play keep hoping someone will cross check bure into the plexiglassso hard they have carry him out stretcher the way not canucks fan begin with well being jet fan sometimes wish that bure would get knocked silly too nothing serious just enough keep him out game okay the stretcher remark was little carried away but the point that resent nhl owners drafting all these europeans instead canadians and some americans denies young canadians the opportunity play their north american league and instead gives europeans who aren even better hockey players all hype this european mystique sickening but until nhl owners get over canadian and american players will continue have fight harder get drafted into their own league most cases the owners have very little with they give their general managers one order when comes the draft find the best players that our team will win the stanley cup whether that player kindersley saskatchewan chelyabinsk russia the believes him the better player the should drafting him where you get off calling the nhl their league when referring canadian players doesn belong them belongs the owners the owners can what they want while canadian content rule might enforcable here canada there enough doubt that would enforcable the that the cfl sorry for the football reference didn even try push their import ratio rule the sacromento goldminers increasing the competition for the elite positions most cases would make players better anyways yeah and how many europeans play the lower levels professional hockey north america while there are some that play the ahl the ihl where that nhl team primary farm club you don hear many europeans playing the chl the echl the secondary farm teams the ihl the jets have few russian players moncton but don believe there are any europeans wayne with all those teams there are plenty positions for hockey players north america with the numbers euros the nhl escalating the problem clearly only getting worse all for the creation european hockey league and let the bures and selannes the world play their own continent just don want them mine favour the nhl being the league for the premier players the world grown with europeans playing team and some those players were the among the best the world from hedberg nilsson and sjoberg sel nne zhamnov and olausson and all those between and come wouldn have any other way daryl turner contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba fidonet please route through tkachuk over zhamnov sel nne shoots scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl dunno lemieux hmmm sounds like has french blood him hey france part europe send that euro blooded boy back don you americans study history the french settled north america early before the british lemieux can probably trace back his north american heritage back lot further than most friendly jibe mode don you canadians understand sarcasm sometimes the reader must decide that what reading ludicrous that must mean the opposite what said kinda like the toronto going win the cup posts yeah right and cows can fly friendly jibe mode off geez gerald like anyone reading rec flamefest hockey pens are great didn know that mow was from quebec patrick
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes anyways crawl back into the hole you crawled out the nba doesn care where they get basketball players from major league baseball doesn give damn where they get baseball players from except cuba that mlb perfectly willing take players from cuba they just have defect first sort like the situation used with russian czech etc hockey players until the political situation those countries changed sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.hockey	tps will stay the top article apr tnclus tele nokia hahietanen tnclus tele nokia writes mighty ones get mightier tps the finnish champions are getting still stronger say isn btw juha nen centre hpk drafted the jets during last year has reached the top level among finnish centres had very good playoff games against tps yes nen draft choice the jets assuming course this the same nen that played for kiekko espoo was round overall pick the jets the entry draft noticed the summaries that nen had really begun play well the playoffs daryl turner contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba fidonet please route through tkachuk over zhamnov sel nne shoots scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes article apr pasteur berkeley edu daniell cory berkeley edu daniel lyddy writes you know you absolutely right think should round all those players european descent and ship back where they came from let see with whom should start dunno lemieux hmmm sounds like has french blood him hey france part europe send that euro blooded boy back don you americans study history the french settled north america early before the british lemieux can probably trace back his north american heritage back lot further than most gerald gerald think was joking lisa
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl somebody wrote love see european nhl division but can see happen for some time there simply not enough fan interest the moment several crucial markets like germany italy and france while sweden and finland probably can afford shell out for tickets the way american canadian fans call the minnesota north stars effect scandinavians love hockey but prefer watch local inexpensive hockey the nhl the national hockey league should love the idea though pan european channels such eurosport could bring the millions the american networks likely never will pay this brings question asked myself answer when was mentionned that the nhl could expand europe would most the north americans now playing the nhl willing play for team europe not think that the majority hockey players are necessarily interested expanding their cultural experience that level know would but not pro hockey player when one recalls some players remarks the last few years makes wonder how european expansion could achieved remember these lindros did not want play quebec for more than reasons nicholls edmonton courtnall wanted traded only lemieux said would refuse edmonton earlier this year know there are many non cultural reasons behind these but there more some american players who played for the expos complained about the french fact and that the city was not quite like the other cities one players wife trying make her point went complain that she could not even find her favorite brand nacho chips montreal anybody knows what happened when all these football players moved london spain etc for the one year that new football league years ago wonder what the players association thinks about going europe myself would like see some european teams but what would the best way marc
rec.sport.hockey	sad day for hockey andrew cmu edu ethan evans writes course penalties will have changed roughing chauvanistic males being aggressive slashing chauvanistic males venting frustration fighting proof that males cannot cope with their feelings since all the penalties fall into three classes there should only three penalties foul any illegal contact with the other player his stick with your body stick you get you are out for the game unsportsmanlike contact intentional foul this inlcludes all the current flavours roughing fighting and boarding you get two you are thrown out the game and fined technical foul bad mouthing the ref player coach penalty shot awarded two and you are thrown out the game besides the penalty shot for one technical the team gets penalties period the opposing team gets penalty shot for every additional one until the end the period the victim gets two shots she was the act shooting when the foul ocured this works well for several reasons first penalty shots are the most exciting thing hockey right follows that the more the better next when the player setting for penalty shot the network can take commercial finally with only three penalties the network announcers don meredith dick vitale john madden pat summerall and marv levy among others will able tell the viewers what happened before the announcer says one other rule when goal scored times period the play cannot resume until the announcer announces this way the network can sneak few more commercials then once the announcer has told them who scored the announcer can tell you the viewer and even have chance pronouncing his name right seriously though actually went see nba basketball game last week for the first time life was amazed how boring was the play slow they actually had fans come out for things like free throw shooting contests during the period course the laker girls get their routines least times during the game and not just between periods either there whistle every seconds average maybe less the game minutes with minutes between quarters and and minute halftime and still takes over hours the reason for this has there plenty room throw commercials and have the announcer jabber while nothing else happening basketball fairly entertaining imho but better watch than there this the road the nhl following then truly sad day enough for now dvb
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl how long has don cherry been student sfu that arche bunker please keep this racist drivel off the net you embarassment canadians everywhere bill
rec.sport.hockey	tps will stay the top apr tnclus tele nokia hahietanen tnclus tele nokia writes btw juha nen centre hpk drafted the jets during last year has reached the top level among finnish centres had very good playoff games against tps not sure about juha but another top center rauli raitanen drafted jets raitanen had very good year and has played the finnish nationalteam believe that one the best finns this year matikainen head coach elects him the team hannu tommi
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool saw previous request for the rules and instructions for the usenet playoff pool but haven seen any responce does anybody have this info post away you could mail thanks advance phil barone internet pbarone ess harris com harris corporation gisd cape canaveral
rec.sport.hockey	where are the doubters now hmm article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes for those you who can only decide which team best after you have seen the standings tor chi det van team the campbell conference has better record than toronto that true but according your stats chicago has just good record toronto interesting that you should list toronto ahead chicago laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan wings
rec.sport.hockey	miami name article apr vax cns muskingum edu tinker vax cns muskingum edu writes when will the new miami franchise team announce name just curious the south florida colons skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	testing just testing flames please bye
rec.sport.hockey	too many europeans nhl you right sick seeing all those white guys skates myself the vancouver canucks should half women and overall one third oriental and gladly volunteer myself for the overage draft gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	rec sport hockey frequently asked questions archive name hockey faq rec sport hockey answers frequently asked questions and other news contents new info nhl nhl minor leagues college hockey north america other leagues europe canada cup tournament mail files usenet hockey pool coming dates answers some frequently asked questions miscellaneous send comments suggestions and criticisms regarding this faq list via mail hamlet washington edu new info this section will describe additions since the last post that you can decide there anything worth reading paragraphs containing new information will preceded two asterisks new anaheim contact winnipeg keep affiliate moncton new milwaukee contact ihl broadcaster the year named rheaume start against cyclones san diego sets record ticket info included for ncaa division championships world championship pool results listed sweden hockey games final standings listed swedish elite league final standings listed new olypmic hockey mailing list new montreal mailing list address nhl national hockey league for detailed information concerning team particularly where get tickets and merchandise where watch games town send mail the net contact for the team first last team div season cups cup net contacts anaheim mighty ducks kris myers kris assist uci edu boston bruins buffalo sabres jeff horvath jhorvath macc wisc edu calgary flames caldwell mtroyal chicago blackhawks john scholvin scholvin casbah acns nwu edu detroit red wings sglenn cmsa gmr com edmonton oilers andrew scott andrew idacom com hartford whalers matthew olsen dmolsen athena mit edu los angeles kings stan willis willis empire dnet hac com minnesota north stars mitch mcgowan hamlet washington edu montreal canadiens new jersey devils new york islanders mark anania ananim rpi edu new york rangers paul romano romano monolith bellcore com ottawa senators scott simpson simpson bnr philadelphia flyers pete clark seth hos cad att com pittsburgh penguins lori iannamico lli cmu edu thomas sullivan tms cmu edu quebec nordiques louis blues joseph achkar jca cec wustl edu san jose sharks nelson claudius leland stanford edu south florida tampa bay lightning tom wilson wilson eola ucf edu toronto maple leafs darryl gamble darryl yorku vancouver canucks alan chim chim sfu washington capitals david david eng umd edu winnipeg jets umturne ccu umanitoba adams norris patrick smythe calgary formerly atlanta flames detroit formerly detroit cougars detroit falcons edmonton formerly alberta oilers wha edmonton oilers wha hartford formerly new england whalers wha minnesota cleveland barons were merged with minnesota for the season new jersey formerly kansas city scouts colorado rockies quebec formerly quebec nordiques wha toronto formerly toronto arenas toronto patricks winnipeg formerly winnipeg jets wha teams with mailing lists see section for addresses boston buffalo los angeles montreal philadelphia pittsburgh louis san jose tampa bay vancouver washington schedule schedule for the nhl april sun mon tue wed thu fri sat min cal mon was buf bos det chi nyi nyr cal har pit chi stl que ott van det tor phi win edm win ott har van min mon nyi tor phi pit que bos buf har nyr bos que edm van que bos van cal bos mon cal buf min har ott chi nyi pit nyr buf det stl chi cal mon pit det chi pit edm nyr har que nyr was nyi was was phi van ott phi win tor win stl min stl was ott nyi nyr pit phi tor ott bos was mon mon buf bos ott phi buf que buf nyr phi cal edm nyi har cal cal van chi min pit tor chi chi van was nyr min det win edm ott que edm win tor har stl tor har nyi min stl win van nyi pit stl the season will begin and end playoffs will begin and end before nhl regular season games will played non nhl cities during season cities milwaukee sacramento cleveland indianapolis phoenix miami oklahoma city dallas atlanta cincinnati providence peoria hamilton saskatoon halifax here chart showing the number games between the teams games each nyi nyr phi pit was bos buf har mon ott que chi det min stl tor cal edm van win valerie hammerl hammerl acsu buffalo edu has posted this year version nhl schedule program for nhl games for example users can find out the games played certain date find out the next ten games played team copy can obtained mailing hammerl acsu buffalo edu following the neutral site schedule tue calgary minnesota saskatoon tue ottawa toronto hamilton tue chicago washington indianapolis tue toronto quebec hamilton wed buffalo new jersey hamilton tue los angeles chicago milwaukee tue montreal los angeles phoenix wed tampa bay new york rangers miami sun edmonton new york islanders oklahoma city tue new york islanders louis dallas mon san jose montreal sacramento mon hartford winnipeg saskatoon mon boston pittsburgh atlanta mon louis hartford peoria tue philadelphia calgary cincinnati sat quebec tampa bay halifax mon new york rangers san jose sacramento mon detroit philadelphia cleveland tue winnipeg ottawa saskatoon mon vancouver buffalo hamilton thu minnesota vancouver saskatoon tue washington detroit milwaukee tue new jersey boston providence sun pittsburgh edmonton cleveland location subject change nhl playoff schedule wales conference division semifinals april campbell conference division semifinals april may wales conference division finals may campbell conference division finals may wales conference final may campbell conference final may stanley cup final june neccessary news scores spike bryan strouse bks cbnewsh att com posts weekday news and box scores sunday through thursday john curcio jpc philabs philips com posts weekend news and box scores both maintain mail lists for faster delivery net contacts post team news they see hear read notable team news transactions and announcements note that this information culled from press releases and posts updated each month and only information currently under discussion continuing importance interest will listed for more than two postings boston bruins boston legislators and the developers proposing new boston garden finally agreed deal that puts the seat million project back track finished september right wing daniel marois will sidelined indefinitely following surgery repair herniated disc his back sent defenseman glen murray providence the american hockey league buffalo sabres puck acquired left winger bob errey from pittsburgh for defenseman mike ramsey veteran buffalo sabres broadcaster ted darling will inducted into the club hall fame sunday april darling who joined the expansion sabres was the team play play announcer both television and radio until illness forced him out the booth during last season recalled forwards viktor gordiouk and doug macdonald from rochester american hockey league calgary flames acquired veteran right wing greg paslawski from philadelphia for future considerations recalled center todd harkins and left winger tomas forslund from salt lake city international hockey league chicago blackhawks the million privately financed united center scheduled open august will home the nba chicago bulls and nhl chicago blackhawks the stadium owned entities controlled the two teams the owners apparently still have not made decision whether the old chicago stadium will razed for parking space once the new facility located directly across the street opens suspended defenseman craig muni indefinitely for failing report following trade with edmonton detroit red wings acquired defenseman steve konroyd from hartford for sixth round draft pick annnounced the signing right wing joe frederick their pick the national hockey league entry draft two contrite hockey fans have returned the stolen michigan sports hall fame plaque honoring detroit red wing great gordie howe the bronze plaque was stolen more than four years ago from cobo hall detroit site the michigan hall fame edmonton oilers sent forward esa tikkanen the new york rangers for center doug weight traded defenseman craig muni chicago for forward mike hudson nhl commissioner gary bettman said the edmonton oilers lease with northlands coliseum must improved the team survive the city edmonton northlands non profit agency set the city administer exhibition facilities including the coliseum oilers owner peter pocklington calls his lease with northlands horrendous and has threatened move the team doesn get better deal makes money from parking concessions building advertising the seat coliseum also has few the lucrative private boxes that produce significant revenues for other owners announced center kevin todd will not need surgery but will miss the remainder the season with separated shoulder hartford whalers sent defenseman steve konroyd detroit for sixth round draft pick acquired left winger robert kron and third round draft pick from vancouver for left winger murray craven and fifth round draft pick the state connecticut will begin negotiations buy the civic center from the city effort keep the financially struggling hartford whalers franchise the city los angeles kings sent center john mcintyre the new york rangers for defenseman mark hardy and ottawa fifth round draft pick minnesota north stars calling from the calling from canada the dallas city council has approved agreement with the minnesota north stars that will bring the nhl club reunion arena next season defenseman mark tinordi captain the north stars will sidelined the rest the season including any postseason games the north stars might play because broken collarbone acquired defenseman mark osiecki from winnipeg for ninth and round draft picks added defenseman travis richards from the university minnesota former employee filed sexual harassment suit against minnesota north star owner norman green karen kari dziedzic green former executive assistant claims green often instructed her wear cosmetics described her outfits very hot and very sexy once slapped her hand she was about eat and humiliated her grabbing her hand and rubbing through client hair the minnesota north stars who will move dallas after this season announced that nearly season ticket reservations have been made for their new home reunion arena which has capacity the met center commission has told the minnesota north stars that wants the club out with its keys returned midnight after the last home game the club moving dallas for next season the club must pay unpaid interest the team late rent payment for which was made earlier this month and has been instructed not take property such the scoreboard and zamboni ice surfacing machine derian hatcher game misconduct penalty was rescinded the nhl allowing the minnesota defenseman play the north stars last two regular season games hatcher was given the penalty during fight the end loss louis sunday april but the league didn rescind the game misconduct penalty shane churla received the stars recalled center cal mcgowan from their top minor league club kalamazoo mich replace churla montreal canadiens acquired defenseman rob ramage from tampa bay for minor league defensemen eric charron and alain cote and future considerations new jersey devils bernie nicholls publicly apologized for his criticism referee denis morel after the devils loss the buffalo sabres nicholls was ejected morel for being the third man fight late the second period that game and afterward nicholls called morel homer and embarrassment the referee association new york islanders traded right wing daniel marois boston for conditional draft choice new york rangers obtained forward esa tikkanen from edmonton for center doug weight acquired left winger mike hartman from tampa bay acquired center john mcintyre from los angeles for defenseman mark hardy and ottawa fifth round draft pick defenseman brian leetch will undergo additional surgery the right ankle broke non skating fall and not expected play again this season leetch suffered the broken ankle march following victory over san jose the team said slipped icy patch pavement was getting out taxi cab front his apartment announced that defenseman james patrick will require surgery herniated disc his back and will not play again this season returned goaltender corey hirsch binghamton the american hockey league ottawa senators the ottawa senators received the ahead build the seat palladium the proposed location nearby kanata ont the projected cost million construction will postponed until the season one year behind schedule the ottawa senators lost their consecutive nhl road game tie the washington capitals for most road losses row assigned left wing martin amour new haven the american hockey league philadelphia flyers the opening date spectrum has been pushed back fall formal groundbreaking has been postponed indefinitely traded veteran right wing greg paslawski the calgary flames for future considerations pittsburgh penguins traded left winger bob errey buffalo for defenseman mike ramsey reacquired defenseman peter taglianetti from tampa bay lightning for third round draft choice revolutionary comics san diego agreed destroy all available copies mario lemieux comic book settlement with the pittsburgh penguins over trademark infringement lawsuit the penguins sued february charging that the sport stars mario lemieux comic infringed the team logo and uniform which are registered trademarks quebec nordiques louis blues louis blues center ron sutter will miss the rest the season result separating his right shoulder san jose sharks the san jose sharks announced that ticket prices will increase about for the season when they move from the cow palace into new million arena san jose recalled defenseman tom pederson from kansas city the international hockey league reached agreement principle with left wing alexander cherbayev tampa bay lightning least two investor groups are poised build sports arena downtown tampa the delay plagued company that holds lease from the tampa bay lightning bows out tampa coliseum inc has lease with the national hockey league team develop entertainment and sports arena next tampa stadium but has been unable raise enough money for the project sent left winger mike hartman the new york rangers for center randy gilhen sent defenseman peter taglianetti pittsburgh for third round draft choice sent defenseman rob ramage the montreal canadiens for minor league defensemen eric charron and alain cote and future considerations manon rheaume first starting appearance goal for the atlanta knights was impressive enough for her coach say she has chance backup goalie for another minor league team next season rheaume the first female play professional hockey stopped shots and gave six goals against the cincinnati cyclones saturday night april after the game her coach gene ubriaco said rheaume performed well enough compete for the goalie spot with the louisville icehawks the east coast hockey league next season the knights and the icehawks are minor league clubs the tampa bay lightning their first season comes close there are rumors swirling that the tampa bay lightning just might become the atlanta lightning the minnesota lightning but they are just rumors according lightning general manager phil esposito espn reported sunday april that the lightning who have been playing seat expo hall are exploring opportunities move either atlanta minneapolis but esposito said there was truth the report were disappointed with espn irresponsible comment esposito said there just substance the rumor rumors have been swirling for the past two years regarding move tampa bay which presently discussing plans build new arena toronto maple leafs defenseman matt martin who helped maine win the ncaa hockey championship gave his final year eligibility and signed contract with the toronto maple leafs vancouver canucks the vancouver canucks have cleared the last hurdle their effort build new stadium vancouver council has given the green light for the million dollar complex will seat thousand people and will have adjoining office tower will built between the viaducts near place vancouver site preparation will begin this summer with completion date fall traded left winger robert kron and third round draft pick hartford for left winger murray craven and fifth round draft pick obtained defenseman dan ratushny from winnipeg for ninth round draft pick signed right wing brian loney multi year contract and assigned him hamilton american hockey league ahl washington capitals caps traded goaltender jim hrivnak and future considerations winnipeg for goaltender rick tabaracci winnipeg jets winnipeg jets have been allowed economic assistance order keep them the smythe division result expansion sent defenseman mark osiecki minnesota for ninth and round draft picks sent goaltender rick tabaracci washington for jim hrivnak and future considerations sent defenseman dan ratushny vancouver for ninth round draft pick winnipeg teemu selanne broke the nhl rookie points record the jets rookie tied the record points set peter stastny with quebec with goal his the season and moved ahead assist loss toronto the fort wayne komets said they have been told winnipeg that the jets will keep minor league affiliation with moncton the american hockey league there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton fort wayne next season expansion news the national hockey league announced that the expansion anaheim and south florida franchises will join the league for the season disney and national hockey league officials announced monday march that the mighty ducks anaheim disney expansion team will take the ice next fall michael eisner chairman and chief executive officer the walt disney said the mighty ducks will play the pond the new anaheim sports arena near disney flagship theme park the arena under construction and will completed june the pond seats the team still must meet the league requirement that sell least season tickets for the final grant nhl membership anaheim named jack ferreira general manager and pierre gauthier assistant general manager veteran nhl scout godfrey has been hired the midwest regional scout for the anaheim mighty ducks philadelphia flyers senior vice president bobby clarke was named monday march the post general manager for miami nhl expansion team franchise owner wayne huizenga made the announcement the miami arena three months after being awarded franchise huizenga said plans have team the ice time for the beginning the nhl season october realignment eastern conference atlantic division washington capitals new jersey devils new york islanders new york rangers philadelphia flyers south florida tampa bay lightning northeast division boston bruins buffalo sabres hartford whalers montreal canadiens ottawa senators pittsburgh penguins quebec nordiques western conference central division chicago blackhawks dallas stars detroit red wings louis blues toronto maple leafs winnipeg jets pacific division anaheim mighty ducks calgary flames edmonton oilers los angeles kings san jose sharks vancouver canucks schedule eastern conference teams will play five games against each six divisional opponents four games against each the seven teams the conference other division and two games against each the western conference members western conference teams will play six games against each five divisional opponents four games against each the six teams the conference other division and two games against each the eastern conference clubs playoffs the system will conference based with the team meeting the team the first round and matchups will based overall points with the four division champions being placed the first second place seeds each conference and being assured home ice the first two playoff rounds all series will best seven rotation except matchups between central and pacific teams those series will rotate reduce travel those cases the team with the most regular season points will choose whether start the series home away draft news under terms the new expansion draft which will held june each the existing clubs will allowed protect one goaltender five defensemen and nine forwards the most recent expansion drafts allowed teams protect two goalies and did not make distinction between forwards and defensemen first year pros only will exempt from the draft which down from the two year exemption teams had last season san jose tampa bay and ottawa still will allowed exempt second year pros each the teams will lose two players with maximum loss one goaltender and maximum loss one defenseman the one exception that team which loses goaltender can then longer lose defenseman the end the first phase the draft the two new franchises will have three goaltenders eight defensemen and forwards for total players second phase then will conducted where san jose tampa bay and ottawa will select two players each from the rosters the two new teams ottawa tampa bay and san jose will guaranteed priority drafting selection the draft long they have the three worst records anaheim and miami will choose lower than fourth and fifth the expansion franchises will move the draft should either san jose tampa bay ottawa not finish the bottom three positions the two new teams will pick first and second the entry draft regardless their finish should either the two new teams not play next season they would have priority drafting position the owners announced the draft will hartford and the draft winnipeg the draft was scheduled for boston but delay the construction new arena required the draft moved league news disputes the nhl owners and players have resolved differences over salary arbitration procedures clearing the way for about hearings nhlpa executive director bob goodenow didn disclose how the issues were resolved but the prior sticking point had been the manner which statistics were used arbitration hearings olympics the nhl announced february will not make professional players available compete the winter olympics league leadership los angeles kings owner bruce mcnall succeeded blackhawks owner bill wirtz chairman the nhl powerful board governors appointed join mcnall the executive committee were ron corey the montreal canadiens mike ilitch the detroit red wings peter pocklington the edmonton oilers and snider the philadelphia flyers gary bettman vice president and general counsel the national basketball association was named commissioner the national hockey league friday december miscellaneous henri richard bernie parent and billy smith have been named special ambassadors for the stanley cup centennial season long celebration the nhl championship trophy the trio will appear league wide function such the all star game and stanley cup playoffs the national hockey league named john turner former prime minister canada serve board directors hockey hall fame and museum and nominated scotty morrison david taylor larry bertuzzi robert bundy walter bush murray costello jim gregory leslie kaplan lawrence meyer and alan tonks serve board which takes office march nhl president gil stein was one four individuals elected the hockey hall fame builder category the others were buffalo sabres chairman the board and president seymour knox iii vancouver canucks chairman frank griffiths and veteran canadian hockey executive fred page former nhl linesman john amico was selected the hall fame referee linesman category nhl games are carried tsn and cbc canada espn the check your local listings the national hockey league has struck conditional five year deal with espn televise professional hockey through the season the series agreements grants espn exclusive national coverage the nhl starting with the season and the cable network has option extend the term that domestic agreement for four more years the deal also grants espn exclusive international television distribution excluding canada for the next five years the league new contract calls for espn televise regular season games its domestic audience this coming season and playoff games including the entire stanley cup final the majority espn regular season games will televised friday nights nhl commissioner gary bettman announced wednesday march that abc sports will televise five stanley cup playoff games starting next month abc will carry the playoff games its network through arrangement with espn the rightsholder for nhl games espn will provide the production the games abc owns espn april wales conference game quarterfinals april campbell conference game quarterfinals may wales conference game semifinals may campbell conference game semifinals may wales conference game finals award winners all star teams hall fame inductees and draft picks award winners hart trophy mvp mark messier nyr vezina trophy best goalie patrick roy mon norris trophy best defenseman brian leetch nyr calder trophy best rookie pavel bure van selke trophy best defensive forward guy carbonneau mon lady byng trophy sportsmanship wayne gretzky jack adams award best coach pat quinn van bill masterton memorial trophy perseverance mark fitzpatrick nyi king clancy trophy contribution community ray bourque bos jennings trophy lowest team gaa patrick roy mon art ross trophy most scoring points mario lemieux pit hall famer players frank boucher and red dutton and executives bruce mcnall and gil stein thursday were named the winners the lester patrick award for outstanding service hockey the united states the award selected each year committee representing wide cross section the hockey community all star team patrick roy mon ray bourque bos brian leetch nyr mark messier nyr brett hull stl kevin stevens pit all star game starters voted fans wales conference mario lemieux pittsburgh jaromir jagr pittsburgh kevin stevens pittsburgh ray bourque boston brian leetch rangers patrick roy montreal campbell conference steve yzerman detroit brett hull louis pavel bure vancouver chris chelios chicago paul coffey los angeles belfour chicago all rookie team gilbert dionne mon tony amonte nyr kevin todd vladimir konstantinov det nicklas lidstrom det dominik hasek chi hall fame inductees marcel dionne bob gainey lanny mcdonald and woody dumart first round the entry draft player pos team roman hamrlik alexei yashin ott mike rathje todd warriner que darius kasparaitis nyi cory stillman cal ryan sittler phi brandon convery tor robert petrovicky har andrei nazarov david cooper buf sergei krivokrasov chi joe hulbig edm sergei gonchar was jason bowen phi dmitri kvartalnov bos sergei bautin win jason smith martin straka pit david wilkie mon libor polasek van curtis bowen det grant marshall tor peter ferraro nyr new nhl rules game ejection for instigating fight helmets are optional grabbing opponent stick defensive move penalty diving draw penalty penalty coincidental minors when both teams are full strength result play high sticking from the waist new cba ratified nhlpa term september september licensing and endorsements players own exclusive rights their individual personality including their likenesses salary arbitration new rules negotiated salary arbitrators jointly agreed upon free agency compensation scale reduced for players age and under group iii free agent age reduced from player who has completed more professional seasons minor nhl and who last year contract didn earn more than the average nhl salary can elect once his career become unrestricted free agent the end his contract salary and awards players playoff fund increased new minimum salary insurance disability coverage dental broad based medical improvements increase life insurance for players coverage for wives pension improved pension contributions per player per year depending the player number nhl games agreement language guarantee continuation security plan negotiated regular season increased from games for games played neutral sites all arrangements and revenues shared rosters kept skaters and goaltenders for entry draft reduced rounds from supplemental draft one selection for each non playoff team joint study group examine financial state nhl issue report assist preparing for negotiations nhl free agency categories effective until group players aged and under player choice player equalization draft pick compensation for compensation old club has right match offer from new club for equalization old club has right match offer equalization which can consist players draft picks and cash must agreed upon between two clubs submitted arbitration group players aged player choice player equalization draft pick compensation for equalization old club has right match offer only least for compensation schedule one first round pick player signs for year two first round picks player signs for million year extra first round pick for each additional over year group iii players aged and over old club gets compensation but has right match offer receive right match old club must make qualifying offer over player salary prior season group players considered defected free agents group player with years experience whose salary below nhl average can choose free agent without compensation once his career nhl minor leagues the nhl minor leagues are the international hockey league the american hockey league and the east coast hockey league information the central hockey league and the american hockey association can found section ihl contacts ihl rob springall rgs ultb isc rit edu atlanta knights scott clarkson prism gatech edu cincinnati cyclones joseph combs jgcombs uceng edu cleveland lumberjacks rob gasser csrag uoft utoledo edu wayne komets rob gasser csrag uoft utoledo edu milwaukee admirals jason hanson jason studsys mscs edu salt lake golden eagles roland behunin behunin logdis aflc mil the international hockey league has granted franchise las vegas group headed henry stickney for the season the international hockey league named bob chase voice the fort wayne komets the league broadcaster the year the ihl also said the annual award effective next year will named chase honor also honored the ihl were jim loria the kansas city blades marketing director the year shelly gartner the phoenix roadrunners merchandise manager the year and steve doherty the kalamazoo wings public relations director the year the atlanta knights the international hockey league announced thursday april that manon rheaume will the starting goaltender home game saturday night april against the cincinnati cyclones rheaume will become the first female start regular season professional hockey game fort wayne announced winger scott gruhl will retire the end the international hockey league season gruhl will join the muskegon fury the colonial league the fort wayne komets said they have been told winnipeg that the jets will keep minor league affiliation with moncton the american hockey league there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton fort wayne next season the san diego gulls the international hockey league set record with their victory over the salt lake golden eagles the gulls became the first team professional hockey win that many games season the montreal canadiens won games ihl turner cup the kansas city blades defeated muskegon lumberjacks games ahl contacts ahl rob springall rgs ultb isc rit edu bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu mark anania ananim rpi edu see section for newsletter information atlantic division cape breton fredericton halifax moncton john northern division adirondack capital district providence new haven springfield southern division baltimore binghamton hershey rochester utica hamilton the new haven senators have been sold peter shipman the ottawa senators nhl organization they are the only canadian nhl team with american ahl affiliate and have made clear they intend move the team somewhere the canadian atlantic provinces this sale and move has yet approved the ahl head office but expected pass easily the general meeting may the baltimore skipjacks the washington capitals american hockey league affliate will skate next season the portland pirates the calgary flames will base their farm team the ahl john new brunswick next season the team will called the john blue flames the fort wayne komets the ihl said they have been told winnipeg the nhl that the jets will keep minor league affiliation with moncton the american hockey league there have been reports the jets would move players from moncton fort wayne next season ahl calder cup the adirondack red wings beat the john maple leafs games the home ice curse held true all games the final were won the visiting team john anderson new haven winner les cunningham plaque ahl mvp echl contacts echl toledo storm rob gasser csrag uoft utoledo edu the toledo storm hockey team asking seagate convention center consider becoming its host site beginning with the season the storm which has played its last two seasons the toledo sports arena said asked for dates the downtown facility the storm also has been talking with backers proposed ice complex suburban sylvania become primary tenant echl riley cup hampton roads beat louisville games see section for newsletter information minor league affiliates for nhl teams bos providence bruins ahl johnstown chiefs echl buf rochester americans ahl erie panthers echl cal salt lake golden eagles ihl roanoke valley rebels echl chi indianapolis ice ihl columbus chill echl thomas col det adirondack red wings ahl toledo storm echl edm cape breton oilers ahl winston salem thunderbirds echl har springfield indians ahl louisville icehawks echl phoenix roadrunners ihl raleigh icecaps echl min kalamazoo wings ihl dayton bombers echl mon fredericton canadiens ahl winston salem thunderbirds echl flint col utica devils ahl birmingham bulls echl nyi capital district islanders ahl richmond renegades echl nyr binghamton rangers ahl ott new haven senators ahl thunder bay col phi hershey bears ahl pit cleveland lumberjacks ihl knoxville cherokees echl que 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standings and scores can obtained through the archives the college hockey mailing list send message the server listserv maine maine edu with the body containing only the commands either both ftp site andy bgsu edu the directory pub hockey contains ccha press releases scores standings and rosters the sub directory archives has archives the division college hockey mailing list since also archives from the division iii list since may are available ncaa hockey championship semi finals maine michigan lake superior state boston university finals maine lake superior state freshman paul kariya who was named winner the hobey baker award college hockey top player the ncaa division hockey championships will held the paul civic center paul minnesota march and april for priority seating call the university minnesota ticket office between and monday through friday send postcard university minnesota ticket office ncaa hockey championships avenue minneapolis ncaa division teams ccha central collegiate hockey association bowling green ferris state illinois chicago lake superior miami michigan michigan state ohio state western michigan notre dame kent state alaska fairbanks affiliate member ccha playoff structure the top will host the bottom etc two three weekend series the six winners will advance joe louis arena for single elimination the rest the way the top remaining seeds get bye while plays and plays the first night the second night the remaining teams battle out leaving only two play for the championship the third night alaska fairbanks affiliate member will seeded from the league office ecac eastern college athletic conference men brown clarkson colgate cornell dartmouth harvard princeton rpi lawrence union vermont yale ecac eastern college athletic conference women brown colby cornell dartmouth harvard new hampshire northeastern princeton providence rochester institute technology lawrence yale the eastern collegiate athletic conference unveiled the nation first intercollegiate women ice hockey league and announced the teams will begin play the season the top eight finishers the ecac women ice hockey league will qualify for post season tournament the league replaces informal team conference nine division and six division iii schools which held their own respective division tournaments the end the regular season the ecac said would discontinue its division iii women tournament after the season hockey east boston college boston university umass lowell maine merrimack new hampshire northeastern providence wcha western collegiate hockey association colorado college denver michigan tech minnesota minnesota duluth north dakota northern michigan cloud wisconsin alaska anchorage has joined the wcha full fledged member for independents air force alabama huntsville alaska anchorage alaska fairbanks army canadian intercollegiate athletic union ciau championships finalists team division university alberta golden bears west university guelph gryphons ontario west university toronto varsity blues ontario east university acadia axemen east semi finals acadia alberta toronto guelph finals acadia toronto other hockey leagues world championships czechoslovakia sweden defeated finland gold medal match czechoslovakia defeated switzerland bronze medal match final standings round robin group pts group pts finland russia germany czech usa switz sweden canada italy norway poland france austria will replace poland pool germany the world championships pool scheduled run from apr may munich germany world championships pool eindhoven the netherlands pts great britain poland netherlands denmark japan romania china bulgaria great britain advances pool bulgaria relegated pool olympic games mail lists charlie slavin slavin maine maine edu maintains olympuck the olympic hockey discussion list send mail listserv maine maine edu with body subscribe olympuck your name favorite country ies cis won the gold canada the silver and czechoslovakia the bronze defeated usa yale hockey coach tim taylor was named coach for the olympic team dany dube from the uqtr patriotes ciau and tom renney from the kamloops blazers whl are coaches canada national program the nagano winter olympic organizing committee said has approved the addition women ice hockey and curling the list official medal events the games the decision which came the organizing committee meeting here followed accord reached nagano between the committee and the ioc coordination committee the decision will formally ratified executive board meeting the international olympic committee ioc and its session result the number total events nagano will increase seven sports canada cup team canada defeated team usa games izvestia hockey tournament final russia czechoslovakia game for and place russia sweden game for and place finland switzerland game for and place canada germany final standings for the izvestia cup russia the russian olympic team czechoslovakia russia sweden finland switzerland canada germany germany cup russia defeated team canada win the four team germany cup for the third time the russian team coached for the first time the legendary boris michailov assured itself the winner check after win over czechoslovakia the former soviet union and commonwealth independent states captured the tournament and under viktor tikhonov spengler cup canada with fabian joseph scoring his second goal the game overtime beat farjestad sweden the final the spengler cup davos switzerland the canadians overcame two goal deficit the final two minutes regulation and went earn their second overtime victory within hours final team canada farjestad sweden european cup finals duesseldorf december bronze jokerit helsinki lions milano gold malmoe dynamo moscow shootout this was the third successive european championship for swedish team and the champion was djurgaarden stockholm sweden hockey games final standings sweden czech republic russia canada sweden wins due head head result the czech republic junior leagues contact whl randy coulman coulman skdad usask mitch mcgowan hamlet washington edu the site for the memorial cup tournament has yet chosen will staged ontario but the exact location won determined until next spring march the two regular season division champions from the ontario hockey league will meet best seven series the start the playoff season the winner the series earns the right host the memorial cup traditionally held may the eventual ohl champion will also participate the tourney but the league champs also happen the club hosting the memorial cup then the league finalists will advance well charles poulin mon draft hyacinthe qmjhl canadian hockey league player the year memorial cup seattle round robin standings sault ste marie greyhounds ohl kamloops blazers whl seattle thunderbirds whl host verdun college francais qmjhl semifinal kamloops seattle final kamloops sault ste marie central hockey league contact marc foster mfoster metgem gcn uoknor edu mfoster alliant backbone uoknor edu ted wollnik twollnik rdxsun aud alcatel com see section for newsletter information chl fort worth fire wichita thunder dallas freeze tulsa oilers memphis river kings oklahoma city blazers six non affiliated teams play game schedule extending from early november mid march each team owned the league with local interests controlling day day operations each team has salary cap for total players dress unlike the echl players are not limited three years the league western division may added the central hockey league for the season the plans chl president ray miron materialize miron confirmed that paso amarillo tuscon and albuquerque are cities under consideration for the western division which would play some interlocking games with the eastern division meanwhile san antonio and houston are close being confirmed the league newest members major league hockey new hockey league with franchises throughout the united states and canada will begin play the fallof officials announced wednesday february major league hockey was founded roy boe former president the new york islanders the national hockey league and the new york new jersey nets the american and national basketball associations according boe the league will debut with six eight teams playing schedule approximately games franchise applications have been received from groups chicago cleveland dallas denver detroit houston minneapolis paul phoenix san francisco saskatoon toronto and worcester mass boe said although the league will not raid existing leagues stock its rosters boe said will seek the world finest hockey players boe said league play will have international flair and discussed implementing some rules which are reminiscent those the iihf removing the red line moving the goal nets forward and eliminating all tie games said boe the mlh office will operate out stamford conn british premier division contacts neil mcglynn nmcglynn axion from nmcglynn axion from europe steve salvini steve contact steve for the usenet draft mail list send mail hockey request cee subscribe durham wasps defeated nottingham panthers british championship game finnish elite league liiga contacts juha koivisto kimmo kauranen hockey tac vesa pyyluoma veikko vipunen hut final standings jokerit helsinki jyp jyvaskyla hifk helsinki assat pori tps turku lukko rauma kalpa kuopio hpk hameenlinna ilves tampere reipas lahti tappara tampere jokp joensuu jokp dropped and kiekko espoo from espoo qualified the liiga individual stats leaders points makela mikko tps playoffs scoring selanne teemu jokerit playoffs all stars briza petr lukko virta hannu tps laurila harri jyp makela mikko tps janecky otakar jokerit selanne teemu jokerit german hockey league contact andreas stockmeier stocki berlin stocki tub uucp duesseldorfer eishockey gemeinschaft defeated rosenheim german final swedish elite league elitserien contact staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson regular season final standings vasteras brynas malmo farjestad modo lulea leksand djurgarden rogle frolunda aik brynas defeated lulea games for the swedish hockey championship swiss first division kloten became the champions the swiss league nationale beating fribourg gotteron sweep the final series women world championships finland canada usa finland sweden china norway denmark switzerland world junior hockey championships sweden final standings canada sweden czechoslovakia usa finland russia germany japan canada wins gold due head head result sweden info available via mail when requesting items via mail please include your preferred address the body the message sometimes the reply address not good thing ftp site wuarchive wustl edu directory doc misc sports nhl there are some new hockey files get the readme file for information and contents mail lists list topic freq subscribe boston bruins bruins request usask list address bruins usask buffalo sabres sabres request potter csh rit edu list address sabres potter 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but try not request too many one time max box scores three days available from richard stueven gak wrs com keyword description direct current nhl directory file available from michael burger mmb lamar colostate edu keyword description tvinfo radio stations for all teams along with network information date division standings and scores can obtained through the archives the college hockey mailing list send message the server listserv maine maine edu with the body containing only the commands either both get conf stand for all division conference standings get comp schedule for full season listing division scores the schedule about lines long and the standings file about lines these files are updated more less weekly around monday contact mike machnik nin merrimack edu with any questions usenet hockey pool send mail andrew idacom com coming dates apr may the world championships pool munich germany jun nhl entry draft quebec city quebec feb feb xvii olympic winter games lillehammer norway answers some frequently asked questions why are the montreal canadiens called the habs most the team during the was made people who lived and around montreal hence they were called les habitants natives montreal this was then shortened the habs why the montreal canadiens logo large with within the canadiens logo consisted with within signify club athletique canadien cac the next year cac longer existed and was changed what now signify club hockey what the most informative hockey publication the hockey news preferred most north american hockey fans weekly journal with date info phone canada and phone fax and rest europe how does minute power play count the penalty killing stats the nhl goals are scored then the team gets credit for goals chances how computed the nhl first only applies skaters except for power play goal when goal scored each skater the ice for the scoring team given and each skater the ice for the other team given short handed goals count for what the five hole the space between goalie pads there are five major scoring zones upper left corner goal upper right lower left lower right and five hole what the meaning throwing octopus the ice this tradition began detroit the when two best seven series were required win the stanley cup every time detroit won game octopus with one less arm was thrown the ice who was the first woman play nhl game manon rheaume year old goaltender became the first woman ever play nhl game september when she started net for the expansion tampa bay lightning exhibition against the louis blues rheaume played the first period before the seat expo hall the florida state fairgrounds and allowed two goals nine shots she left with the score tied although the lightning ultimately lost the game what the richest contract nhl history mario lemieux the superstar center the pittsburgh penguins signed the richest contract nhl history seven year deal believed worth about million lemieux will earn between million and million year nearly twice much any other player the league who the new commissioner the nhl gary bettman vice president and general counsel the national basketball association was named commissioner the national hockey league friday december bettman joined the nba assistant general counsel became the league chief legal officer september new york resident bettman graduated from cornell university and from new york university school law how many professional hockey leagues are there north america six national american international east coast central and colonial hockey leagues miscellaneous for field hockey discussions the newsgroup rec sport hockey field for skating discussions the newsgroup rec skate some sites get another hockey group called clari sports hockey consists the upi feed for all upi news articles that are related hockey including game results summaries scores standings etc much the information the nhl team news section comes from this newsgroup the rec sport hockey frequently asked questions posting posted semi monthly usually the and each month during the hockey season this file was originally created tom wilson who posted during the season was taken over mitch mcgowan for the season please make corrections via mail indicating faq the subject line feel free start discussion any previously mentioned topic but use appropriate subject line mitch mcgowan hamlet washington edu
rec.sport.hockey	barasso the cheap shot master after watching the pengiuns all year and many other teams possible really noticed increase tom barasso cheap shots this year and not noticed corrsponding increase with other goaltenders also noticed that usually gets away with just examples last night noticed him elbowing scott stevens the head which basically started the whole shoving match that got stevens scott and tocchet minute minors also kicked john mclean course wasn called for that isn kicking automatic match penalty and game suspension think glenn anderson got one few years ago for kicking gaetan duchesne the chest there doubt mind that barasso the dirtiest golatender since hextall also very good how about that tocchet head butt there automatic susppension that goes along with non kicking match penalty can remember anymore the playoffs should fun ralph
rec.sport.hockey	how beat pittsburgh from anna matyas now could just clone chelios personality and transplant into all the defensemen the islanders capitals and devils gerald other words you want turn them all into assholes they will spend lots time the penalty box and get lots misconducts and this comes from chelios fan yeah and also second the team scoring and play about minutes game and play the power play and kill penalties and the best defenseman the league take whole team chelioses could that way when one got penalty the others could kill ralph
rec.sport.hockey	bruins pens the ulf neeley fight mattb hawk samsung com matt brown writes more about the messier samuelsson incident while this true strictly speaking was the rocksteady replicant who initially used his stick illegally measure messier ribcage there question mind from seeing the replay slo that ulf was coming messier with intent hasta vista mind and should have been gone for that agree with rick that ulf cross check wasn illegal was the kind check you see dozen times during game without being called slo mos sometimes have tendency make things look worse than they really are besides messier can take the heat should stay out the kitchen staffan how mattias timmander doing this year and any impression markus czeriew lost roster list hammerby does look like they will make the eliteserien for next year and then get stomped markus goes boston well matt mattias timmander hasn been playing with the modo elite league team yet just the modo junior team predict needs few more years here before can join the saw him play the swedish championship game for junior players this year and played very well physical game but not the kind rough stuff that ulfie does suspect you would like have ulf type player the team too for mariusz czerkawski has had great season for hammarby division scored remember correctly points this season and then have keep mind that point season sweden considered very good due the limited number games mariusz djurgarden property was just loan hammarby will play elitserien next season unless the can get him course would say that mariusz has one the most exciting player watch swedish hockey this season staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	isles hockey ramblings well the patrick division got little more interesting last night the islanders lost and the devils tied the pens that means the isles beat the devils friday the will meet the caps the playoffs however have some more comments the islanders and hockey general that need get off chest first all with the islanders back back lackluster performances against the whalers one may think that the islanders are out shape these guys always suck wind the period come little the and run out gas too soon unbelieveable how many one goal games these guys have lost anyway the games was pretty wide open the isles still have tons trouble scoring the whalers played golie nhl start think his name was lenarduzzi his nhl debut was the tuesday tie against the isles like mentioned before this guy looked like the best golie the planet for while until misplayed mahlakov slap shot say because the isles don shoot correctly has anyone else noticed this also think really shame for hockey when guy like mick vukota gets much ice time does this guy has about much hockey talent jiggs macdonald who did play hockey think anytime gets the puck gets stolen and always starts fights and gets needless penalties richard pilon another guy who the ice stir crap and defenseman got approaching negative infinity for his plus minus this guy gets beaten all the time why the need for such enforcers not only fights slow the game down alot but takes away from the guys who are really trying play the game one the few admit enjoy good fight once while but only when called for you know when guy checks the goalie too hard other words violation hockey ethics might cause you get puched but there need start crap when you are losing becuase you can get away with does anyone agree that referees need little less lenient the and mean come already sick seeing teams pulling guys down holding guys etc just becuase the referee doesn call and late the should time for strategy not physical prowess trying set goal should first and foremost you are afraid that the other team going score that you have pull guy down prevent you don deserve win the first place just honest opinion gary hofstra accgsg vaxb hofstra edu accgsg hofstra bitnet
rec.sport.hockey	pens info needed kevin stamber writes there anyone who can help these items please let know markus naslund saw that modo lost early the national tournament and that was playing for the national team the world championships any stats available any word how playing when expected join the club markus had good season modo the swedish elite league scoring goals assists points and pim games daryl points out markus won joining the pens for this year playoffs since the world championships starts april but there good chance that markus will join the pens before next season modo though naturally wants keep their superstars forsberg and naslund the latest news this that modo looking for personal sponsors for forsberg and naslund order match the kind money they would receive nhl daryl turner writes the club would assume you mean the pens don hold your breath you aren going see naslund this year the world championship tournament doesn start until april nhl teams won see any influx europeans and team playing the will see sudden influx eliminated nhlers the earliest player playoff bound team could join team the last game the round robin and doubt any coach going want play short one player for that long actually swedish coach curt lundmark thinking about leaving two spots open for additions from eliminated nhlers mats sundin and calle johansson that curt hopes can join the team although late stage the tournament technically seem recall that you can leave spots open until hrs before the final staffan staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	expanding europe dusseldorf article apr abo mlindroos finabo abo marcus lindroos inf writes didn say every team must have number local players rather the european teams should get the chance sign their top players before the rest the league comes agree that birthplace isn that important dusseldorfer the german league average close fans and they don have single german born forward lion milan made the european final four with fifteen canadian born players but nationality going issue sweden and finland think really need issue preventing lindros and mario from ending being drafted european team and vice versa player trades are different matter any player can end anywhere after being drafted deg has many german born forwards the team fact the majority players are german born deg had average spectator arena possible nhl european league site list switzerland berne zurich lugano and others germany dusseldorf cologne berlin munich mannheim rosenheim sweden stockholm gothenburg malmo gavle finland helsinki turku tampere italy milan france paris chamonix ruoen norway oslo austria vienna villach chech prag slovakia bratislava russia moscow petersburg great britain netherlands petteri kortelainen
rec.sport.hockey	sweden finland april apr ericsson etxonss ufsa ericsson writes played stockholm globe arena april sweden finland swe jan larsson stefan nilsson patrik juhlin swe peter popovic mikael renberg thomas rundqvist fin mika nieminen ville siren mikko haapakoski fin timo saarikoski vesa viitakoski harri laurila swe fredrik stillman stefan nilsson patrik juhlin swe mikael renberg fin saku koivu mika alatalo shots goal penalties attendance referee sweden min borje johansson finland min sweden well things were different and had way the headline would nhl european division regular season game stockholm storm helsinki tornado two games against every north american based team all and this might have been the ninth and final regular season encounter between helsinki and stockholm the remaining games would involve paris dortmund milan nice dream marcu staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	leaf slump over march roger maynard wrote reply article graham hudson will still have the jennings trophy the end the year potvin very good and believe that will star but want see him perform the playoffs under pressure you don think performing under pressure now the major differences between playoff hockey and normal hockey play ing every other night which physically exhausting and you play the same team consecutive string games this what you mean pressure have you even thought about what you mean pressure are your thoughts like most the rest this drivel simply half baked this was mar ramsey laurentian for anybody who would like check went another article say paraphrased playoff hockey just expression used announcers convince simple minded folks like yourself that what you are seeing better product than regular season game now however article apr ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes with win over tough whaler squad the leafs showed all doubters what playoff hockey all about roger what exactly playoff hockey all about convenient phrase use certain circumstances only you see when you spout off with flame bait too many times sooner later catches with you
rec.sport.hockey	mogilny must benched article acsu buffalo edu ubvmsb buffalo edu andrew korbut writes anyway this game continued trend that has sadly been taking shape for couple weeks now had hoped was fatigue aberration but can snow myself any longer alex mogilny must benched disciplinary action and soon his explanation for ysebaert jumping between him and lafontaine score the winning goal yesterday wasn guy ask patty about actually this stuff from mogilny doesn surprise all that much about weeks ago read the toronto sun quote from alex went something like sarcastically yep patty the man responsible for the team success nobody around here was going post the time must have forgot since nobody else was talking about him being problem heard that the locker room beat the shit out him the spot patty took responsibility the press taking the heat off alex that because lafontaine the epitome class and consummate team player yep beat the shit out him too lafontaine really must team player makes you wonder what the islander management was thinking question what the hell muckler doing whether wishes admit not the team his coach and can the job then maybe the job should given somebody who can gee kinda like alex spot the team isn the devils advocate
rec.sport.hockey	canadians another stanley cup article mece ryevm ryerson mece ryevm ryerson writes sorry tell you this but unless they pull off another miracle there way the habs will win this year ever since they traded for ramage and since savard came off injury they have been playing shinny and you cant blame roy for the loss washington when players could not score one goal know you think boston fan but all years have been dedicated les habs david degan well seems that the habs have been much talked about late here these guys have absolutely concept how play front the damn net watch them the offensive zone especially the powerplay damphousse lebeau will skate all over the bloody zone maybe pass the point get back skate some more pass around but where the shot answer the shot totally useless because they lack forward who stands front the net neely shanahan tocchet etc etc too bad demers won put dipietro leclair the powerplay more often dammit even ewen would least cause some disruptions montreal desperately needs power forward with some talent imo then watch them their own zone patrick roy screened everything say what you want about his performance imnsho cannot stop what cannot see and montreal defence does miserable job clearing the front the net last night against washington roy played great game the first goal came the most ridiculous goalmouth scramble seen long time and didn have hope hell stopping the shot the second goal came deflection shot only partially saw anyway pathetic defence the third goal was wonder gets pissed off his defencemen dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	vlad playoff picks article vzhivov cunews vzhivov alfred carleton vladimir zhivov writes wales conference adams division semifinal boston buffalo the bruins are playing some excellent hockey and with cam neely back and moog his old self again this should cake walk bruins hoping for fuhr miracle but agree that boston will likely win the series goaltending about equal top offensive players are about equal mogilny lafontaine oates juneau but buffalo has answer neely not imply that neely not top offensive player btw fact one favourites even though damn bruin and the rest the matchup wrt lineup favours boston anyway but think will six quebec montreal this one very tough call montreal certainly has the experience factor but quebec more talented imho come down the goalies with experience and roy canadiens agreed here but montreal will pushed the limit just does everything montreal does the playoffs come down roy habs final boston montreal will bruin domination continue this rivalry yes moog has consistently outperformed roy the playoffs after other stuff bruins five can predict montreal victory because been watching them play for weeks and imo they severly need some tougher players especially play the garden last time they beat the but boston had clear territorial advantage the victory was roy the same time can bring myself predict the possibility loss just say will not putting money this series patrick division semifinal pittsburgh islanders what can say the pens are flying high and have the most talent the league agreed doesn have the goaltending stop the onslaught independent the trouble they have given pittsburgh this year pens five which credit washington new jersey capitals agreed here too but think will least six jersey has decent team and washington has done poorly against the division this year pittsburgh washington the caps had bill ranford might see upset but don beaupre just doesn inspire hopes penguins think they will use tabaracci more after beaupre gets shelled don think will six either maybe five conference final pittsburgh boston replay last year the penguins are just good months ago and the bruins are much improved but penguins pittsburgh plays boston imo they win likely five possibly six they own the bruins they play montreal think will seven and once again won putting money the seventh game say seven because the habs have played pittsburgh very tough this season campbell conference norris division semifinal chicago louis minnesota blackhawks chicago will win but think least six chicago not that good imo and remember that they take ridiculous numbers penalties detroit toronto the leafs have had excellent season but they been playing playoff hockey all year the habs under burns were the same way and always wilted the playoffs red wings very true the leafs have much proud but they will soon find out why montreal did lousy the playoffs toronto might win two three mlg though wings six maybe even seven final chicago detroit this will war fedorov will win red wings will war possibly the most intense playoff series them all and yes think detroit will win probert will have come big though smythe division semi finals vancouver winnipeg canucks our first disagreement canucks are playing like shit they don use their size all which may explain why they get hammered team chasing them calgary winnipeg six calgary los angeles this would have been tough call except for three things the kings don have goalie gary roberts will back the kings shot themselves the foot trading proven winner paul coffey for proven loser jimmy carson gretzky just too weary carry this group flames this also tough for call because haven seen the smythe enough don think roberts will well enough figure coffey non issue who cares what carson has done before and never underestimate gretzky six final vancouver calgary flames these two calgary will not need six games but think will winnipeg anyway and seven because home ice coference final detroit calgary red wings wow must been tough against your team but let see picked detroit detroit will win probably six stanley cup final pittsburgh detroit three row and official dynasty status for the pens can the wings complete dream season well the wings are better goal not sufficiently though imho and have better men however mario and the boys can sure score look for jagr shine the playoffs though sure would love see probert beat some sense into him the pens are just too much especially since detroit will have tougher battle get here penguins pittsburgh plays detroit will longer than five and wouldn bet against the wings they are very strong imo and nobody knows how strong because they been underachieving most the year forced choose though have take the penguins side note vlad last week you said that selanne was better player than gilmour way more talented pure goal scorer but aside from the age difference there way would take him over gilmour team not asking for flames either btw spent more than enough time arguing behalf selanne and still say great player but while and gilmour are both dangerous offensively give teemu edge gilmour does all know lot gilmour bashing goes esp from flame fans but imo you guys are letting your dislike gilmour cloud your judgement when comes his skill easily one the best all round players the nhl dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played wed april boston ottawa first period boston roberts juneau boston wiemer juneau oates second period boston neely juneau murphy boston hughes richer kimble ottawa archibald rumble lamb third period ottawa boschman kudelski boston power play scorer pts hughes juneau kimble murphy neely oates richer roberts wiemer ottawa power play scorer pts archibald boschman kudelski lamb rumble washington rangers first period scoring second period scoring third period washington bondra pivonka cavallini washington bondra cote pivonka washington power play scorer pts bondra cavallini cote pivonka rangers power play scoring islanders hartford first period islanders ferraro malakhov king islanders hogue thomas turgeon hartford yake poulin hartford yake nylander poulin second period hartford verbeek cassels weinrich islanders thomas king ferraro third period hartford burt sanderson cassels islanders malakhov hogue overtime hartford janssens poulin hartford power play scorer pts burt cassels janssens nylander poulin sanderson verbeek weinrich yake islanders power play scorer pts ferraro hogue king malakhov thomas turgeon pittsburgh new jersey first period pittsburgh daniels needham tippett new jersey lemieux semak driver pittsburgh stevens tocchet murphy new jersey zelepukin driver niedermayer second period pittsburgh lemieux stevens tocchet new jersey semak lemieux zelepukin pittsburgh mceachern jagr barrasso new jersey stevens guerin pellerin pittsburgh lemieux unassisted new jersey richer nicholls new jersey lemieux semak zelepukin third period pittsburgh mullen jagr lemieux overtime scoring pittsburgh power play special goals total scorer pts barrasso daniels jagr lemieux mceachern mullen murphy needham stevens tippett tocchet new jersey power play scorer pts driver guerin lemieux nicholls niedermayer pellerin richer semak stevens zelepukin
rec.sport.hockey	rheaume start just quick note about manon immediate future rumor has usa today spor page that she will playing with tampa bay affiliate the echl thin been couple days she will supposedly competing for the num ber goaltender spot think after her performance which was damn good for someone who hasn played squat all year that seeing lot more atlanta the years come ward blades bring home the turner cup again
rec.sport.hockey	what bad about the new playoff format article edu icop csa edu antonio pera writes what bad about the new playoff format you really believe teams that finish fourth their div deserve the playoffs with the new format you have more chance see more teams you really want see the bruins against the sabres umpteen times would you rather see the bruins and the capitals the secound round playoffs there really nothing inherently wrong with but they tried just little over decade ago and noone showed for the early rounds the playoffs whereas soon after they went the divisional set arenas were mostly filled the early rounds the empirical evidence the last two decades that more people will show see the bruins play the sabre umpteen times than see the bruins play the captials the first round maybe hockey has increased popularity sufficiently that this will longer the case the experiment worthwhile with the uneven distribution the expansion teams but prefer the divisional playoff gerald
rec.sport.hockey	for sale edmonton oilers article mcm ersys edmonton mbevan ersys edmonton mark bevan writes was already offered million for them from northlands coliseum but refused the offer don think going sale think may decide move the team the states though where can draw more revenue from the team pocklington just wanted wake the powers that holding political office northlands and the business community that the oilers with their current lease arrangement are state where yearly basis they will likely have operating loss based normal hockey revenues and expenses that did this was good thing better complain early and make the city aware potential looming crisis before begins lose millions and millions dollars which would truly jeopardize the franchise pocklington first option not sell move but sell minority share the team realize some the appreciated value the team and get better arena deal either northlands via new building pocklington probably isn going get exactly what wants but ultimately will probably get enough will sell someone who will probably get enough there are lot risks moving team also one has remember peter puck principle better spend other people money than one own all possible gerald
rec.sport.hockey	hockey and the hispanic community odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes you have hard time selling any sport community that can play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport for the white and well off what white yes well off definitely not hockey season ticket owners have the lowest average income any the four major north american sports and think where the majority hockey players come from from farm out boondock saskatchewan weedville alberta when was the last time you saw hockey league the inner city the insurance alone big enough barrier the inner city isn the only place that poor think the biggest barrier hockey the inner city ice play stace rick casares silicon graphics cubfan wrigley corp sgi com shoreline blvd just wait till next year mountain view
rec.sport.hockey	winning streaks you might want clarify the game winning streak that pens streak playoff streak tied the chicago blackhawks who had won row until they met the pens the finals last year the game unbeaten far regular season unbeaten streak but hey don take personally flyers fan and two row stretch but with healthy lindros recchi brind amour and tommy soderstrom they there next year the way since the flyers need defenseman what kind trade would anybody suggest from the existing flyers roster since the scuttlebutt that terry carkner won there next year and apart from him piece notebook paper would better defense matt weaver properly found ajs psuvm psu edu hey least not the whalers
rec.sport.hockey	washington beat pitt article rap psuvm psu edu robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes article apr mprgate mpr tasallot galaxy mpr mathew tasalloti says chances this year but seems like washington the only team that can stop the penguins from winning their next stanley cup really think both the islanders and devils would have better chance the penguins than the capitals imo robbie pgh penguins won easy but contact for the stanley cup will have greater rewards penn state lady lions champions mountains and valleys are rap psuvm psu edu straight wins better than nothing all really what makes you think the islanders have better shot they couldn even beat the whalers two games well since you pens fans the whole question moot think the teams most likely beat the pens are the bruins nordiques and blackhawks but don think they can really tom galvin galvint taurus nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	bruins canadiens talentwise article apr amc com richard amc com richard wernick writes the bottom line the bruins are the better team this year montreal fans have been screaming for years that their beloved canadiens deserve another cup since the removal the french canadien rule they have been screaming foul welcome league parity something the rest the league has had for years even the habs beat boston the playoffs they won get the pens agree with you boston the more taleneted team the french canadian rule was extremely short term feature when the universal draft was instituted the sixties and only lasted for few years and really didn have any substantial effect during that period the canadiens stanley cup achievements were earned level playing field gerald
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions join the fun and give playoff predictions round pitt nyi pitt wash njd wash bos buf bos que mon mon chi stl chi det tor det van win win cal cal round pitt wash pitt bos mon bos chi det chi win cal cal round pitt bos pitt chi cal chi finals pitt chi pitt walter
rec.sport.hockey	giveaways article apr philabs philips com jpc philabs philips com john curcio writes that probably because they couldn find anyone sponser maybe uss could sponser the pittsburgh penguins steel steel rod night close enough maybe the but not now steel dead industry pgh giveaway night the for pgh would baboon liver night sponored the pittsburgh zoo lori
rec.sport.hockey	goalie masks starting informal poll goalie masks like know who mask you think looks the best always like curtis joseph the blues the best anyway send your nominations post your vote here mail adress gtd prism gatech edu thanks for your time skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhlpa poll stats uptade uptade here are the standings for the poll after votes points for for point for nhlpa game det chi van mtl pit was bos que cal asw tor ase win buf phi min otw atlanta win turner cup not the game but person vote continue send your votes this format until april approximately
rec.sport.hockey	barasso the cheap shot master robert angelo pleshar andrew cmu edu writes after watching the pengiuns all year and many other teams possible really noticed increase tom barasso cheap shots this year and not noticed corrsponding increase with other goaltenders have look belfour also kicked john mclean course wasn called for that belfour kicked gerrard gallant when the wings played the hawks couple weeks ago penalty review suspension this was after attacked bob probert the previous period was penalized for that there doubt mind that barasso the dirtiest golatender since hextall also very good likewise belfour too bad goes down much ralph brian down bdown vis toronto edu
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat lor cbnewsk att com edward lor writes player points subtraction lemieux lafontaine oates yzerman selanne this wrong among lemieux points not know how many are power play points may able find out how many goal scored but not how many assist accumulated also don know the times was the ice but not credited the goals the pens scored that what point really was there not straight dependency between the and scored points apparently most the netters have realized themselves
rec.sport.hockey	the hawks will return the finals well now that the hawks have won the division the road little easier for the playoffs let toronto and detroit beat the hell out each other while chicago sweeps louis that just makes easier the second round with all the rest they will get and tor det getting none for the conf champ they will have hard time versus the division but that div will pretty battered also the advantage goes the hawks again then bring pitt and sure the hawks will probably lose but its better get that far and lose than not brian
rec.sport.hockey	washington beat pitt article apr ncsu edu fmsalvat eos ncsu edu frank michae salvatore writes what makes you think like understand your reasoning from seat the caps don really appear believe that they can defeat pittsburgh therefore they don think their spirit was broken last year playoffs and hasn really recovered don know what the season series numbers were but believe that the pens won think that either the devils the islanders will cause more problems for what this spirit crap caps fan and hope they win they end facing pittsburgh but don think the caps lose pitt because lack spirit yes the penguins won the season series against the caps they won eighteen games row for god sake did you ever think the penguins might good and that why they win read what wrote and didn say exactly what thought sure the pens are better team they got size and the best skill players the league they also got the best clutch goaltending they the best team the league but point was the caps have not played their ability level the pens since last year choke and that the mental problem the one they had for number years tried point out spirit mental preparedness will win whatever you want call missing when the caps play the pens actually you right won make any difference george
rec.sport.hockey	mogilny must benched dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes actually this stuff from mogilny doesn surprise all that much about weeks ago read the toronto sun quote from alex went something like sarcastically yep patty the man responsible for the team success nobody around here was going post the time must have forgot since nobody else gee kinda like alex spot the team isn how can you assume was sarcastic remark for someone whose first language not english would interpret that comment mean that believes pat the mvp the team and that just one the other normal players quite modest might say
rec.sport.hockey	leaf slump over apr newshub ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes march roger maynard wrote reply article graham hudson you don think performing under pressure now the major differences between playoff hockey and normal hockey play ing every other night which physically exhausting and you play the same team consecutive string games this what you mean pressure have you even thought about what you mean pressure are your thoughts like most the rest this drivel simply half baked this was mar ramsey laurentian for anybody who would like check went another article say paraphrased playoff hockey just expression used announcers convince simple minded folks like yourself that what you are seeing better product than regular season game now however article apr ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes with win over tough whaler squad the leafs showed all doubters what playoff hockey all about roger what exactly playoff hockey all about convenient phrase use certain circumstances only you see when you spout off with flame bait too many times sooner later catches with you nice try deepak but tough whaler squad should have clued you the fact that leaf woofing was tongue cheek playoff hockey any more intense than the regular season variety then because the teams are facing each other least consecutive times days and hockey being the contact sport that some things will carried over that might dissipate during the regular season but that only for some the players many the rest who have been playing with injuries who miss their families who like grant fuhr would really rather playing golf don really give damn course can say this for sure but believe that this fairly typical human nature and don think that hockey players are above having what consider typically human attitudes with the recent salary escalations the key players are actually losing money participating the playoffs the ones who regard the playoff take some kind bonanza are fringe players who are unlikely consistently force the playoffs now know some you are going come back with winning spirit and all that crap but these players are professionals after all while they may love play the game that love entirely incidental their purpose which make decent living course the coach professional well and part what being paid motivate the players the coach does his job well enough the players may respond with winning effort the second season after all merely exhibition the true champions the league are the division winners the teams that come out top after the long struggle the season the stanley cup playoffs merely accord victory the team that has remained healthy and hot the emphasis the playoffs with their sudden death appeal has been promoted the media and the owners with profit purely mind even pittsburgh loses the playoffs all know that they were really the best team the league over the year they proved cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions smithw col com walter smith writes join the fun and give playoff predictions round pitt nyi pitt wash njd wash bos buf bos que mon mon chi stl chi det tor det van win win cal cal round pitt wash pitt bos mon bos chi det chi win cal cal round pitt bos pitt chi cal chi finals pitt chi pitt walter not bad you only got wrong cal over chi and cal over pit take the lawren sms business uwo stephen lawrence western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	patrick playoffs look like this article bson apr hal gnu mit edu bson gnu mit edu jan brittenson writes article apr sei cmu edu gjp sei cmu edu george pandelios writes the pens won playing montreal because boston will win adams divisional play buffalo and quebec will make decent showings boston out sheer determination will win game against the pens but more they have heart but the pens have too many big guns and too many ways win boston does indeed win the adams nothing certain and indeed gets play the pens then think you find very different boston team this year boston will use every trick the book shut down the pens offense something they didn even try last year the pens weak spot defense and goaltending boston first enjoyed reading your post second disagree with the pen weak spot being defense and goaltending for couple reasons barrasso has had spectacular year slow start consistently sharp gaa and leads the league wins tommy deserves the vezina given the lack respect commands though doubt will win the other reason concerns the pens team defense they are hovering around the fewest goals allowed that big improvement for them and indicates that they are playing better team defense can shut down the pens offense and get early goal then you have real game the pens score first then practically over don think the pens have the discipline stick the team game they held scoreless minutes into the second boston doesn have the guns the pens but the pens doesn have the defense goaltending and discipline boston still boston can put the puck the net remember that boston not run and gun patrick style team although they played run and gun hockey for the better part the regular season who doesn even neely backchecks all the way behind his own net necessary penalty killing will big factor boston are believe over the last something short handed situations meaning they have scored shg while giving ppg one lackluster game against ottawa say the series will but much less certain whether will favor the pens the their styles going into the playoffs are too different make predictable still place bets the pens think prediction that the can get the first goal four the games they take the series otherwise the pens will but rather wait and see whether the will actually get out the adams begin with buffalo quebec and montreal aren exactly planning call game and home jan brittenson bson gnu mit edu see fun george george pandelios internet gjp sei cmu edu software engineering institute usenet sei gjp fifth avenue voice pittsburgh fax disclaimer these opinions are own and not reflect those the software engineering institute its sponsors customers clients affiliates carnegie mellon university fact any resemblence these opinions any individual living dead fictional real purely coincidental there
rec.sport.hockey	playoff telecasts atlanta article noa hsdndev harvard edu nhmas gauss med harvard edu mark shneyder writes article iflyr andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam andrew cmu edu writes does anyone know all the patrick division games are going televised espn and abc some games are going left out blanked out dumb southern abc affiliates was wondering anyone out there knows any sports bars atlanta which are frequented hockey fans don want miss out any the pens games sure that there are some islander fans now that the rangers are dead who would want watch every pens islanders game atlanta circle tuesday april your calendar espn will carry game from pittsburgh civic arena they are advetising pittsburgh place partick div finisher personally bruins buffalo montreal quebec city much better matchup but espn hoping for spoiler the pens series which not likely get the way mario has been playing for the past month personally prefer buffalo boston birthday gift from espn but don think the folks espn will accomodate that for espn has this inexplicable affinity for the patrick division seems valerie hammerl some days have remind him not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but pwwpz ubvms buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	david polie future article hydra gatech edu gtd prism gatech edu hrivnak writes article gfmod owc andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu gary james patalsky writes bad news for the patrick division next year caps david polie reportedly trying get front office job with the nhl can believe polie has not been fired despite years mediocrity yes yes the idiot gone the idiot gone wish this happened before traded hrivnak anyway the idiot gone not gone yet the position opening down polie and the sabres gerry meehan think like see meehan gone valerie hammerl some days have remind him not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but pwwpz ubvms buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions round pitt nyi pitt looks like safe bet nyi has been bagging late nyi and njd have showdown friday night for the honour pittsburg anyway pigsburg wash njd wash think that njd have solid team and will compete with wash agree though with wash bos buf bos the have been playing awesome hockey the last two weeks the only question how long will last fuhr dud bos que mon mon seems that mon much like the van chemistry the habs seem not stride que chi stl chi stl should not the playoffs chi det tor det diehard leaf fan but seems that the leafs offense shutting down the last week can they turn around against detroit recall the last couple time these two teams met the leafs were pummelled don know bobbie allowed canada yet det not det van win win upset the making here another team with bad chemistry there something gone foul among linden momesso and bure win cal cal anybody that says that could possibly beet cal does not watch the smythe whole lot bunch geritols cal round pitt wash pitt seems that pigsburg has some egos their team their saving grace though bowman can put anybody their place however pigs have quick first round they may little too high wash could there for surprise having said that will say pitt bos mon bos mon will not there bos surprising late cam great the couple wins against que last week have sold with the chi det chi yikes this will not pretty but det running like machine late they had non busy end the season which they played like killers det win cal cal cal has solid team little weak the nets cal will out muscle win cal round pitt bos pitt hate pitt logic eludes the dark side will take over and give bos the extra push needs dump pitt there may something this you think the rivalry bos chi cal chi finals pitt chi pitt have bos det don know what say here both teams will flying and overdue will with goaltending and muscle and say det jake
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes apr sol uvic gballent vancouver uvic greg ballentine writes you have completely missed the point with the selke trophy goes the best defensive forward this the forward who forgoes points help his team out defensively unsung hero sorts yes lemieux and gilmour are good defensive players but they play more offensively oriented style than true defensive forward this year you mean guys that check but can score the guys who can both check and score shouldn candidates that right the selke candidate forwards main purpose shift prevent goals from being scored not score them when lemieux gilmour play their number one purpose score defence secondary especially considering the line that plays against them probably defensive one that why they are not selke candidates when tarasov called bob gainey the best player the world was assumed that meaned the best technical player the one who knew every intricacy about playing hockey and never made technical error and who was that made this assumption all your friends maybe sorry greg but people aren enough you can assume all that you want but you think tarasov was serious then you are idiot someone posted something about this assumption being lost translation was few months ago whoever this was please repost agree with this assessment bob gainey may have been the best technical player ever right greg did you see this the sun something what did you think claude provost gainey was nothing more than journeyman player who outstanding abilities were entirely political might have had col lection defensive skills but had absolutely offensive skills all none but perhaps you think that the abilities pass the puck shoot the puck and deke goalie defenseman are not technical skills gainey the best defensive forward ever stand that assessment was very good player who belongs the hall fame did you ever watch him play never made technical error babbling deleted gee greg the pundits were calling gilmour the best two way player the league way back when was with louis would have expected you have picked that who are these pundits gilmour was good with louis but was not the best two way player the game when was with them you have overhyped gilmour this net for months very good forward but hardly the best the nhl gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article tnclus tele nokia hahietanen tnclus tele nokia writes article apr sol uvic gballent vancouver uvic greg ballentine writes good stat because the only stat that aware that takes into account defensive play isn measure defensive play takes into account offense and defence all aspects play are interested real all round players the power play stats should considered too because the power play also one aspect play there still something done with these player evaluation tools imo any good player should score power plays because the man advantage very good power play scorers tend become overrated because their point totals are inflated power play points tends expose these overrated players such brett hull john cullen and dave andreychuck given the opportunity play power play consistently any player can inflate his totals gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article mala apland mala ron apland writes article apr sol uvic gballent vancouver uvic greg ballentine writes adjust first calculate teams goals scored goals scored goals allowed goals allowed when they were penalty killing divide this number take into account the fact that there are players the ice and each responsible for the team players adjusted his raw team adjustment btw anyone could calculate and post adjusted ratings would greatly appreciated might find the time but don count have database filter set for the player stats when posted for the end season repost the team averages you don need through the complicated team adjustment you are using all you need the team average summing all the individual players and divide the total number players the team this will little distorted because the players who have been traded recently will have come with scores based their original teams this shouldn distort too bad though you want look individual players from this perspective then ahead you require the original player stats though question team uses players season you merely divide the total player who plays only game considered equally valuable player who plays all them another way looking the same thing compare the deviation from the mean for the team the player the standard deviation for the team post both since the standard deviation for each team different unsure how transferable between teams that these stats are shouldn the average standard deviation the league used interested seeing each method but still think that mine the best for other reason than familiarity gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota recalls mcgowan help derian hatcher game misconduct penalty was rescinded the nhl allowing the minnesota defenseman play the north stars last two regular season games hatcher was given the penalty during fight the end loss louis sunday april but the league didn rescind the game misconduct penalty shane churla received the stars recalled center cal mcgowan from their top minor league club kalamazoo mich replace churla the above courtesy the washington times line service now here where need help anyone out there has tape tuesday chicago minnesota game please contact terms will favorable also anyone can tape tonight minnesota detroit game please contact this could quite important once again will make worth your trouble thanks all rec sport hockey contact for minnesota north stars and maintainer the faq file mitch mcgowan kalamazoo wings minnesota north stars hamlet washington edu kilda saints toronto blue jays
rec.sport.hockey	helsinki stockholm nhl expansion mlindroos finabo abo marcus lindroos inf writes not too low perhaps but surely not high that european nhl division the finnish team for example would contain all players currently the national team plus top class foreigner two they would entirely different league than tps jokerit both whom have perhaps dozen players international class even that why settle for minor league when you could have the best matter what you call the teams jokerit and tps helsinki tornado and turku typhoon the best palyers finland would eventually end those teams anyway they were the big league rather spend marks watch the helsinki tornado play montreal the rangers los angeles than marks for the privilege see jokerit jypht even djurgardens there nothing like the nhl period unrealistic for now maybe should first just expand finnish league allow teams from baltic countries entry then others will get interested the idea that maybe one should settle something bigger the ultimate goal you want would european division nhl btw does that make final with europan team against norht american
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions everybody please send your predictions for the stanley cup playoffs want see who people think will win please send them this format something comparable winner buffalo boston winner montreal quebec winner pittsburgh new york winner new jersey washington winner chicago minnesota louis winner toronto detroit winner vancouver winnipeg winner calgary los angeles winner adams division above winner patrick division above winner norris division above winner smythe division above winner wales conference above winner campbell conference above winner stanley cup above will summarize the predictions and see who the biggest internet guru predicting guy gal send entries richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo will send entries one you folks you know when say won that won
rec.sport.hockey	the hawks will return the finals the hawks won the norris div and sealed their fate bad luck win the norris the hawks will sweep the blues their dreams but will lose reality predict that the game with the blues belfour will down his knees time and will spend the rest the time looking behind him self butcher will pound roenick and the warthawks have one tough enough prevent bye bye wart hawks
rec.sport.hockey	predictions smythe division vancouver winnipeg jets the jets have played the canucks tough the last three games everyone healthy for the jets biased calgary los angeles flames from what have seen the kings have looked flat lately just can see them getting the flames final jets the jets haven lost the flames they will but will close series that will come down how well roberts has recovered don think and while will help won enough norris division chicago louis minnesota chicago against the blues against the stars detroit toronto wings the wings should able shutdown gilmour and andreychuk chelvadae more experienced than potvin final hawks brutal series probert and chelios will belfour better than chelvadae imho conference final hawks hurts but the hawks are more experienced and that will carry them through the final prince wales conference adams division boston buffalo bruins can check juneau darn good and neely the sabres rely too much lafontaine and mogilny quebec montreal montreal classic battle the inexperience will hurt the nords this year final bruins habs will hurting from their series with the nords and boston has been able control the scorers the habs patrick division pittsburgh islanders devils pens one word mario washington devils islanders caps devils think the caps can beat the isles but not the devils tabaracci has been strong goal and plays like last year could carry the team doesn matter though final pens two more words stevens jagr cup final pens three last words tocchet murphy barrasso the only thing don like about this that the pens woofers are going out full force again don mean the regular penguin fans just like the bunch around here that these predictions are true will post like nuts while the jets are winning but won hear from again when they lose yeah next year cup prediction jets over the nords daryl turner contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba fidonet please route through tkachuk over zhamnov sel nne shoots scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat apr sol uvic gballent hudson uvic greg ballentine writes the selke candidate forwards main purpose shift prevent goals from being scored not score them when lemieux gilmour play their number one purpose score defence secondary especially considering the line that plays against them probably defensive one that why they are not selke candidates gainey the best defensive forward ever stand that assessment was very good player who belongs the hall fame did you ever watch him play never made technical error watched him over his entire career have never seen player and that includes russell courtnall and davie keon screw many breakaways bob gainey and will never forget the time denis potvin caught gainey with his head down you have been sold bill goods bob gainey gainey was plugger and when the press runs out things say about the stars dynasties they start hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	wfan steve chief hours greetings steve summers and the chief were hours last night shmoozing sports unfortunately missed those you who saw can you please provide synopsis thanx the czar mainframe computing jbe musicb mcgill mcgill university too sexy for cobol habs doesn look good let expos peter peter pumkin eater knew chick but couldn meet her saw her brother one fine day sucked his cock now gay andrew dice clay disclaimer needless say that the opinions expressed the czar represent those the faculty staff and students mcgill university
rec.sport.hockey	pens box score pens devils first period scoring pittsburgh daniels needham tippett devils lemieux semak driver pittsburgh stevens tocchet murphy ppg devils zelepukin driver niedermayer penalties pgh stevens roughing njd pellerin double minor cross checking njd zelepukin tripping njd stasny holding pgh taglianetti roughing njd lemieux roughing pgh jagr tripping second period scoring pittsburgh lemieux murphy tocchet devils semak lemieux zelepukin pittsburgh mceachern jagr barrasso njd stevens guerin pellerin pittsburgh lemieux unassisted shg devils richer nicholls devils lemieux zelepukin penalties pgh stevens roughing njd mckay roughing pgh mullen hooking pgh tocchet roughing njd stevens slashing njd lemieux unsportsmanlike conduct pgh samuelsson cross checking pgh barrasso double minor spearing served mceachern njd holik cross checking njd lemieux roughing third period scoring pittsburgh mullen jagr lemieux penalties njd daneyko interference pgh stevens roughing njd holik roughing pgh match penalty game misconduct njd zelepukin tripping pgh stevens roughing njd daneyko roughing overtime scoring scoring penalties penalties shots goal pittsburgh devils goalies barrasso shots saves billington shots saves ref devorski linesmen gauthier vines lori contact for the penguins lli cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	giveaways article kqr access digex net steveg cadkey com steve gallichio wrote john curcio jpc philabs philips com responded drivel steveg cadkey com steve gallichio writes still surprised that one has tried giving away the goodies the end the game the two problems with that course are that you would want make sure the first people the building would assured getting them probably redeemable vouchers and that the building managers want avoid all costs delaying people they leave the building for instance the goodies are given people they exit went the new jersey devils carvel ice cream puck night last year see the beloved bruins play the pucks were given out the end the game could just imagine what would have happened late the third the bruins were winning figures after posted the first article found out that the whalers are going using coupons for the the giveaway friday night believe that the some big corporation probably bank flying disk night think that could all see the potential for danger here all all have seen whole bunch giveaways land the ice and never ceases amuse just thankful for the players that one has yet sponsor lead pipe night any arenas that probably because they couldn find anyone sponser maybe uss could sponser the pittsburgh penguins steel steel rod night close enough naah probably bounce off jay caufield was cincinnati cyclones game year ago when the local country station sponsored kazoo giveaway after particularly bad call the underexperienced echl ref was kazoostorm time down the ice thought this was pathetic display the fans but they were rightfully unhappy jason
rec.sport.hockey	canucks clinch bure score playoff goals previous article steveg cadkey com steve gallichio says ron apland apland mala writes quinn will resign head coach this secret and hopefully they will bring someone who looks the game spatially and institutes some team disciplined play how about keenan give him what wants and coach and have quinn upstairs president was under the impression that rick ley was line for the canucks job should quinn step off the bench ley coached the canucks organization bring back harry neale least was witty freenet carleton rachel holme
rec.sport.hockey	hockey and the hispanic community rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes article edu icop csa edu antonio pera writes the presence the new team miami can say south florida too long makes think interesting question can you sell the hispanic community hockey miami hispanic this community has experience and previous exposure hockey that know the teams and which also have big hispanic groups not seem try woo this group what will miami could they get spanish language and radio coverage you have hard time selling any sport community that can play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport for the white and well off well suffice say that sport for those able make the substantial investment equipment etc but here something you think that the availability line skates and road hockey could contribute rise awareness ice hockey would argue this having effect here kids play ice hockey the winter and road hockey the summer with line skates
rec.sport.hockey	suhonen will not jokerit tvartiai vipunen hut tvartiai vipunen hut tommi vartiainen writes according the inside information alpo suhonen won the next headcoach jokerit pretty sure that boris majorov will continue although owner the team previously said that will chance the coach tommi wrong information they just announced that suhonen has made deal with jokerit tommi
rec.sport.hockey	mogilny must benched article wong sfu wong fraser sfu sam wong writes about weeks ago read the toronto sun quote from alex went something like sarcastically yep patty the man responsible for the team success nobody around here how can you assume was sarcastic remark for someone whose first language not english would interpret that comment mean that believes pat the mvp the team and that just one the other normal players quite modest might say well don recall assuming anything except perhaps that the columnist who reported the incident was telling the truth the sarcastic impression came from him steve simmons besides knowledge alex has pretty fair grasp the english language and his recent comment after the detroit game would indicate that this remark what think very low dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes apr sol uvic gballent hudson uvic greg ballentine writes gainey the best defensive forward ever stand that assessment was very good player who belongs the hall fame did you ever watch him play never made technical error watched him over his entire career have never seen player and that includes russell courtnall and davie keon screw many breakaways bob gainey and will never forget the time denis potvin caught gainey with his head down you have been sold bill goods bob gainey gainey was plugger and when the press runs out things say about the stars dynasties they start hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and these players all are pretty good players they are the depth that the dynasties had win stanley cups they tend the very good second line guys who would first liners most weaker clubs the nhl they were all important their clubs probably several these stanley cup winning teams would not have won the cups they did were not for the depth provided these players they compare rick tocchet and ron francis the penguins very good players who can lead lesser teams francis hartford tocchet philly who provide the depth the team that currently best the nhl defensive forward there have been none better than bob gainey that doesn mean was the best player even the best forward the canadians had that time but was excellent what did gainey could dominate games with his defence didn need get goals dominate shut down the opposition and was thus valuable there has never been anyone any better doing this not ever gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	washington beat pitt article kkq acsu buffalo edu ubvmsd buffalo edu ralph ambrosio writes article apr mprgate mpr tasallot galaxy mpr mathew tasalloti writes the penguins get out the patrick they will win the cup however their hardest task get out that division sure that washington will most definitly throw rench into the penguin plans canucks fan not that think much their chances this year but seems like washington the only team that can stop the penguins from winning their next stanley cup was under the impression that the penguins has had the caps number for most the season mathew tasalloti mpr teltech ltd vancouver canada course one asked always interject opinions matters have concern over islanders playoffs here come jets for and last year the capitals had the pens number until about game the playoffs john horstmann
rec.sport.hockey	hockey the bay area not all don get the sport channel and desparate for some playoff action especially the cannucks does anyone know sports bar the bay peninsula that will showing hockey games looking for something between redwood city and mountain view thanks lot greg
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask poll here update the goalie mask poll first since many people gave their best decided give pts for their favorite pts for for you mailed response with only one gave pts please feel free send your other favorites you only sent one before also votes are still welcome any mask you like will have received votes for players not the nhl please mention what team they play for though here are the date results far player team pts votes belfour chicago andy moog boston curtis joseph louis brian hayward san jose grant fuhr buffalo ron hextall quebec clint malarchuk buffalo manon rheaume atlanta ihl john casey minnesota rick wamsley toronto retired thanks all that voted and keep coming skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	washington beat pitt article ged taurus nps navy mil galvint nps navy mil thomas galvin writes article rap psuvm psu edu robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes article apr mprgate mpr tasallot galaxy mpr mathew tasalloti says chances this year but seems like washington the only team that can stop the penguins from winning their next stanley cup really think both the islanders and devils would have better chance the penguins than the capitals imo really what makes you think the islanders have better shot they couldn even beat the whalers two games yes but has been mentioned many times before the islanders play the talent level their opponent since hartford pitiful the islanders played pitiful since pittsburgh great the isles will most likely play great this most likely due inexperience and very poor shooting greg yes have noticed that the islanders couldn hit the broad side barn with the puck they were two feet front does anyone have shooting percentages don know that would help since they often miss the net completely but might shed some light the subject and playoff pool running exact rules posted tomorrow but don hesitate send picks keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.hockey	goalie masks vote goes john vanbiesbrouck his mask has skyline new york city and the sides there are bunch bees beezer looks really sharp keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.hockey	espn tonight swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes has anyone heard what game espn showing tonight they said they will show whatever game means the most playoff wise would assume this would the blues tampa game the minnesota red wings game anyone heard for sure jeff swartz going the stars wings game
rec.sport.hockey	who picks first according the fan here ottawa has won the daigle sweepstakes they didn mention why but san jose had more goals than the sen sens have hunch this why ottawa would pick first susan
rec.sport.hockey	stop predicting article apr ncsu edu cdkaupan eos ncsu edu carl david kaupang writes really annoying see all these predictions the net who really cares who you think will win please stop with the predictions all know the caps are going win the cup let that the words doktor kultur the ottawa citizen remember unhook the nitrous oxide before you leave the dentist chair jets for once the playoffs please beg you paul badertscher uwovax uwo
rec.sport.hockey	stan fischler keenan stuff article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare writes the oilers will charge eat the press room next year there was article one the toronto papers about this few months ago probably the globe and mail any ethical journalist even sports journalist should not accept free meals from team any case which was the one the points the article was making admittdly most sports reporting mostly with any ethical standards gerald
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes meaningless compare one player plus minus statistic with another players out the context the role and the playing time the players involved just meaningless compare goals assists pim and any other stat can think each player asked take unique role for his team the contexts will never the same from one player another playing the same team different teams and yet awards are given and promotions received based part these meaningless stats the operative words are part stats must interpreted tempered with other information one has about the player compare jagr and francis plus minus ridiculous and absurd and comparing jagr and francis points just ridiculous and absurd but not more ridiculous and absurd comparing goals assists points for selanne lindros juneau potvin and the other rookies the league and yet how about looking them for what they are and enjoy the game ron
rec.sport.hockey	this year next year playoffs well since someone probably wanted know here this year playoff matchups the left and what the matchups would next year under the new alignment and playoff matchup rules the same teams make the playoffs under next year rules and three the first round matchups are the same que mtl chi stl van win pit chi pit chi stl buf stl was det que tor nyi tor mtl cal bos van was van buf win win que cal bos det mtl nyi jim murawski software engineer office administrative computing and fax information services jjm andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university office ucc forbes avenue pittsburgh mieux magnifique soixante six claude non there are days until clinton clinocchio leaves office too many
rec.sport.hockey	flyers notes the flyers closed out the season last night with their straight victory winner over the hartford whalers the game winner came from dimitri yushkevich just his the season and his first game winner the flyers never led until that point the game for the whalers the loss marked nhl record loss this season roster move gord hynes was called play place ryan mcgill injuries ryan mcgill injured his hand fight and was scratched lines eklund lindros recchi beranek brind amour dineen lomakin butsayev conroy faust acton brown galley bowen yushkevich hawgood carkner hynes dominic roussel game summary didn get coverage the game and since was stormy these parts didn have the best radio coverage either here the box score followed few things did pick first period hartford nylander philadelphia recchi lindros brind amour penalties verbeek har holding carkner phi roughing houda har interference second period hartford burt cunneyworth kron philadelphia bowen eklund recchi hartford nylander zalapski sanderson penalties galley phi major game misconduct spearing verbeek har major game misconduct spearing brown phi tripping zalapski har tripping brind amour phi slashing third period hartford kron sanderson cassels philadelphia beranek lomakin yushkevich philadelphia faust brind amour roussel penalties houda har tripping hawgood phi holding overtime philadelphia yushkevich faust penalties none power play philadelphia hartford goalies philadelphia roussel shots saves hartford lenarduzzi the first hartford goal gord hynes misplayed the puck the flyers blue line and nylander stripped him and took off the recchi goal was with lindros the bowen goal was just puck threw the net got good carom and ended behind the goalie the second nylander goal got three whacks the puck before went this the most frustrating part the flyers defense take the body and they get one shot and beat you fine don give them another chance carkner galley and mcgill are all terrible about this bet money least one them was the closest flyer the play that all have radio got bad after that and was lucky know who was that scored much less how from what heard roussel had very strong game after the game gene hart asked bobby taylor pick the three stars the season rather than the game was garry galley for his career high point total surprised that former goalie wouldn look closer his defensive play tommy soderstrom for his team record tying shutouts only about season and mark recchi for his all time high team single season scoring mark but here the odd part couldn decide between lindros and recchi for number picks recchi after had hard time choosing between him and lindros doesn that make lindros what you wanna know three stars the season well since you asked eric lindros eric dominates game simply stepping out onto the ice the difference between the team record with him and without him accident believe that the team could have been almost successful without recchi there question that this team significantly better with eric lindros and think that will deservedly wear the his jersey next season tommy soderstrom shutouts was second the league only belfour and tommy didn have chris chelios booo front him also didn play complete season due heart problems sentimental edge here family has history heart problems there question mind that tommy soderstrom this teams goalie the future and roussel complains again about being number look for him traded within years mark recchi again you can argue with all time team high single season scoring mark there are awful lot teams that didn have single player get many points plus mark the only flyer play the entire season not tough choice honorable mentions rod brind amour topped his single season high point total which set last year the difference was that wasn the top line this year and didn get much playing time then again didn get the defensive attention that got last year from the other team either dimtri yushkevich was the teams most consistent defenseman yes made rookie mistakes but was usually fast enough make for them have feeling that with his shot score few more points next year without giving anything his own zone and suspect that the teams top defenseman years come garry galley was the team point leader from defensemen again there are some things you just can argue with and battled with chronic fatigue syndrome certainly deserves kudos for only missing one game and that was against his wishes under doctors orders but his defensive play often negates his offensive contribution little more caution and little bit smarter his own end will make him much more important part the team next year brent fedyk was the leagues biggest improvement over last years point total but consistency became problem for him couple misc notes mostly for mailing list members tom misnik member the mailing list would like exchange mail addresses with any list members who want keep touch over the summer you interested you can send him mail att acr org tmisnik the flyers end the season game below place their best winning percentage since going within the division patrick home they finished overall will draft next years entry draft quebec had the rounder though they scored many goals they allowed the straight wins the most since they won row will sending out final stats soon get the issue the hockey news that contains them since there are more games for have other way getting them hope you all enjoyed this years hockey season much have knowing the future that have coming made missing the playoffs one more time almost bearable flyers team record watch eric lindros goals assists points rookie records club record goals club record points eric lindros dave poulin brian propp brian propp ron flockhart eric lindros dave poulin ron flockhart bill barber pelle eklund mark recchi goals assists points club record goals club record points reggie leach mark recchi tim kerr bobby clarke tim kerr bobby clarke mark recchi bill barber rick macliesh bobby clarke bill barber rick macliesh reggie leach more than games flyers career years player points best prior season mark recchi penguins rod brind amour flyers garry galley kings brent fedyk red wings that all for now pete clark rsh flyers contact and mailing list owner
rec.sport.hockey	predictions classic playoff year here yet another prediction for them great playoffs you may laugh your convenience adams division hate the name divisoin bos buf bos the are hot lately mon que mon this will the series watch the first round bos mon mon this may bit biased but feel the canadiens will smarten and start playing they played two months ago bench savard patrick division pit njd pit wont complete cake walk there few lumps the cake batter was nyi was this will not exciting series imo pitt was pit washington will tired after the nyi norris division chi stl chi stl will get lucky game tor det tor this like mon que will another intense series watch chi tor tor potvin will settling nicely this point smythe division van win van teemu great but vancouver better team cal lak cal gretzky great but calgary has been fire lately sorry for the pun not van cal van this will great series but van has proven they will not lie down and get beat wales conference finals pittsburgh montreal montreal montreal imho the only team that has chance against pittsburgh campbell conference finals vancouver toronto toronto potvin will series mvp stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs montreal canadiens the classic stanley cup final matchup also dream come true montreal wins the stanley cup the game double overtime roy and potvin are spectacular throughout the series and share series mvp that possible vincent damphouse nets game winner from brilliant pass brian bellows canadiens star denis savard watched his buddies play from the owners box nursing that splinter his thumb which has left him the disabled list since the first game the playoffs awww shucks yee haa poof and wake well that predictions hope and dream they come true and you can stop laughing anytime paul die hard habs fan living with die hard leafs fans
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results ahl calder cup playoff game played providence springfield baltimore binghamton utica rochester cape breton fredericton game scheduled for capital district adirondack providence springfield baltimore binghamton utica rochester moncton john halifax series stati plural status adirondack leads cdi springfield leads providence baltimore leads binghamton utica leads rochester john leads moncton cape breton tied fredericton full calder cup playoff schedule and results home team caps necesary first round springfield indians providence bruins springfield providence springfield providence providence springfield providence springfield springfield providence providence springfield springfield providence islanders adirondack red wings adirondack cdi cdi adirondack adirondack cdi adirondack cdi cdi adirondack adirondack cdi cdi adirondack baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers baltimore binghamton baltimore binghamton binghamton baltimore binghamton baltimore baltimore binghamton binghmaton baltimore baltimore binghamton utica devils rochester americans utica rochester utica rochester rochester utica rochester utica utica rochester rochester utica utica rochester moncton hawks john maple leafs john moncton moncton john halifax john moncton john moncton moncton john halifax john moncton moncton john halifax cape breton oilers fredericton canadiens fredericton cape breton cape breton fredericton fredericton cape breton fredericton cape breton cape breton fredericton fredericton cape breton cape breton fredericton bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	this year next year playoffs let fill some winners here well since someone probably wanted know here this year playoff matchups the left and what the matchups would next year under the new alignment and playoff matchup rules the same teams make the playoffs under next year rules and three the first round matchups are the same que mtl chi stl van win pit chi pit chi pit chi stl buf stl nyi det was det que tor nyi det nyi bos tor mtl cal bos det van was van bos van buf win win bos van que cal bos det que cal mtl nyi just thoughts chris downec rpi edu
rec.sport.hockey	predictions classic playoff year article apr dal paul dal writes here yet another prediction for them great playoffs you may laugh your convenience adams division hate the name divisoin bos buf bos the are hot lately mon que mon this will the series watch the first round bos mon mon this may bit biased but feel the canadiens will smarten and start playing they played two months ago bench savard patrick division pit njd pit wont complete cake walk there few lumps the cake batter was nyi was this will not exciting series imo pitt was pit washington will tired after the nyi norris division chi stl chi stl will get lucky game tor det tor this like mon que will another intense series watch chi tor tor potvin will settling nicely this point smythe division van win van teemu great but vancouver better team cal lak cal gretzky great but calgary has been fire lately sorry for the pun not van cal van this will great series but van has proven they will not lie down and get beat wales conference finals pittsburgh montreal montreal montreal imho the only team that has chance against pittsburgh campbell conference finals vancouver toronto toronto potvin will series mvp stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs montreal canadiens the classic stanley cup final matchup also dream come true montreal wins the stanley cup the game double overtime roy and potvin are spectacular throughout the series and share series mvp that possible vincent damphouse nets game winner from brilliant pass brian bellows canadiens star denis savard watched his buddies play from the owners box nursing that splinter his thumb which has left him the disabled list since the first game the playoffs awww shucks yee haa poof and wake well that predictions hope and dream they come true and you can stop laughing anytime paul die hard habs fan living with die hard leafs fans only have one comment this you call this classic playoff year and yet you don include chicago detroit series mon boston fan and even realize that chicago detroit games are the most exciting games watch chris downec rpi edu
rec.sport.hockey	who picks first ottawa picks first because they had fewer wins during the season the first tiebreaker keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team milwaukee newsgroups rec sport hockey subject nhl team milwaukee summary expires sender distribution organization marquette university department mscs keywords article apr walter cray com cbetz radioman cray com charles betz eng writes bradley center milwaukee home the milwaukee admirals minor leauge hockey team the owner the admirals sorry can remember his name either owns least shelled out the majority the funds build the bradley center lloyd pettit married into allen bradley corp com family and owns the admirals donated the bradley center and the new pettit national ice center supposedly was approached the nhl about expansion franchise but turned down because thought the franchise fee million was too high this not the way have heard see lloyd affectionately referred milwaukeeans and bob uecker bought the bradley center get the nhl come here like said don know whether this story true just rumor but true don look for nhl team milwaukee anytime soon the admirals aren going forced out the building and you won see nhl club and minor league club the same building especially since the nba milwaukee bucks play there well yeah the bucks the milwaukee wave soccer the admirals the marquette warriors concerts and bunch other things jason hanson wisconsin ave marquette university milwaukee ham radio lea jason studsys mscs edu lea ary nocal usa
rec.sport.hockey	finland sweden nhl teams was helsinki stockholm you mention could cut stars the nhl even rexi his prime was more good regular new york edmonton than superstar his own right although some blamed that lack effort his behalf think that the management made mistake and remember how edmonton called reksa the middle the season win the cup why did they call him yeah had tendency beat ourselves the past almost knifed brother anger when sweden scored two the final minute the semifinals back what about the three goals antero kivela let with five minutes against the russkies lake placid ugh that was bad luck penguins have the same kind luck this year the playoffs they never win the cup they are still the best team howl howl gargle howl gargle howl howl howl gargle howl gargle howl howl gargle gargle howl gargle gargle gargle howl slurrp uuuurgh prostetnic vogon jeltz marko poutiainen mep phoenix oulu
rec.sport.hockey	playoff pool well looked the scoring plan had and have decided modify here the new finalized scoring pick round winner way off games pick within one game pick exact games pick round winner way off games pick within one game pick exact games pick conference champ way off games pick within one game pick exact games pick stanley cup winner way off games pick within one game pick exact games pick loser series goes pick loser game decided these are now final anyone needing copy the entry sheet email the address below keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.hockey	nhlpa poll partial stats results article ofnmao kyd andrew cmu edu young soo che andrew cmu edu writes all these people who send their polls should take closer look njd they are very deep team with two very capable goalies and excellent forwards and defensemen shooter richer all around all todd chef stasny master thousand dishes power play captain stevens take look the numbers play with them and see for yourselves yup agree with think devils can beat red wings easily think all those who send their votes should try all these diffrent teams before voting think islanders and quebec are much better then had expected cobra sex not the answer sex the question yes the answer mail cobra chopin udel edu
rec.sport.hockey	finland sweden nhl teams was helsinki stockholm article apr abo mlindroos finabo abo marcus lindroos inf writes jutila was failure think while makela and ari haanpaa had again off again career with the islanders both players had play the minors course like our players just don think the names you mention could cut stars the nhl even rexi his prime was more good regular new york edmonton than superstar his own right although some blamed that lack effort his behalf ruotsaleinen was more than competent nhl his choice where play when did not bear his hockey playing ability was crucial the oilers stanley cup victory the one without gretzky because made oiler power play which was lethargic that year until arrived slide into overdrive the oilers missed him more the following year than kurri and think the oilers would have make the finals ruotsaleinen has stayed around the following season and would have beaten pittsburgh with ruotsaleinen and healthy messier and delayed pittsburgh dynasty season gerald
rec.sport.hockey	flyers notes could someone post the flyers record with and without eric lindros the lineup have guy that trying compare the quebec flyers trade the dallas minnesota trade the nfl hershel walker just need the stat back point that eric will one the next great players thanks john
rec.sport.hockey	who will pick nhl draft recently bought pack prospect hockey cards which had various players that were coming into the nhl got this particular card russian named viktor kozlov says many scouts believe will the pick another guy quoted saying good mario lemieux anyone know who this guy via dlg pro
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat post newsgroups rec sport hockey from david sms business uwo james david subject plus minus stat organization university western ontario date fri apr gmt nntp posting host sms business uwo lines not defending bob gainey frankly don care for him all that much but your dismissal him something less than effective hockey player tiresome has basis anything how many calders did win think was four ooops that should read selke forgive for insolence congenially always james david david student business uwo david sms business uwo james david western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	stop predicting article apr rose com jack petrilli rose com jack petrilli writes april cdkaupan eos ncsu edu carl david kaupang wrote really annoying see all these predictions the net who really cares who you think will win please stop with the predictions all know the caps are going win the cup let that haa that one the things find most interesting this newsgroup good way cluing into the collective wisdom the average hockey fans that doesn mean they always right however for example the habs are going come out the adams and hardly anyone believes that right now jack hard humble when you perfect well long being unduly cocky here obvious that the pens will cone out the patrick division not the caps and also that they will win thier third stanley cup collective wisdom very polite way putting don know gracious and for what worth probably not much think the habs will come out the adams too not new long absent mikey mike dellinger computer lab consultant sutherland hall computer lab and grill university pittsburgh
rec.sport.hockey	hockey hispanic market article saross starbase spd louisville edu saross starbase spd louisville edu stacey ross writes odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes you have hard time selling any sport community that can play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport for the white and well off what this crap only interested intelligent discussion you can answer question just say can anyone else answer the ques
rec.sport.hockey	hawks leafs lastnight article acps ryevm ryerson raj ramnarace acps ryevm ryerson writes did anyone else see this game last night just like playoff game lots hitting but was disappointed the video goal judge all replays joe murphy goal shouldn have counted didn net and according the tsn broadcasters the video goal judge said that saw the water bottle top the cage move assumed the puck went this terrible hope crap like this doesn occur the playoffs the game would have ended tie thought the red light went thus the review the presumption would find conclusive evidence that the puck did not the net from the replays say even from the rear the evidence wasn conclusive that the puck was out opinion gerald
rec.sport.hockey	brown university ordered restore two women varsity teams found this press release from trial lawyers for public justice another system and thought would interest campuses where the administration the athletics department wants eliminate the women ice hockey team women athletes tlp win sex discrimination ruling brown university ordered restore two women varsity teams national desk sports writer contact lynette labinger home ray marcaccio both trial lawyers for public justice washington april the court appeals for the first circuit boston has upheld district court order requiring brown university immediately reinstate its women gymnastics and volleyball teams full varsity status the ruling cohen brown university the first appeals court decision the nation applying title intercollegiate athletics trial lawyers for public justice tlpj the national public interest law firm representing the women athletes this ruling makes clear what have said all along school wants eliminate teams before women have their fair share opportunities participate they can only eliminiate men teams said tlpj executive director arthur bryant counsel the case the class action filed april charged brown with violating title the education amendments the federal law that prohibits sex discrimination all educational institutions receiving federal funds brown terminated the two women teams university funded sports may allowing them continue compete against varsity teams they could raise their own funds for uniforms travel coaches and all other expenses they had also been denied admission preferences for use recruiting new members this major victory for women and the cause equal rights said tlpj lead counsel lynette labinger providence roney labinger universities across america need reevaluate their programs quickly title the law and going enforced three similar title appeals await decision colorado state university indiana university pennsylvania iup and colgate university are asking federal appeals courts overturn court orders requiring them reinstate establish specific women varsity teams continuing its cutting edge title activities tlpj representing women athletes iup addition labinger and bryant tlpj legal team included ray marcaccio blish cavanagh and amato deluca mandell deluca schwartz providence and sandra duggan philadelphia the national women law center women sports foundation and national association for girls and women sports filed amicus brief support tlpj appeal
rec.sport.hockey	hawks leafs lastnight apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes article acps ryevm ryerson raj ramnarace acps ryevm ryerson writes did anyone else see this game last night just like playoff game lots hitting but was disappointed the video goal judge all replays joe murphy goal shouldn have counted didn net and according the tsn broadcasters the video goal judge said that saw the water bottle top the cage move assumed the puck went this terrible hope crap like this doesn occur the playoffs the game would have ended tie thought the red light went thus the review the presumption would find conclusive evidence that the puck did not the net from the replays say even from the rear the evidence wasn conclusive that the puck was out opinion seemed pretty conclusive the puck clearly hit the crossbar and then came down the line and the announcers admittedly homers kept harping about how they must have had different view upstairs because was obvious them and would have thought anyone who saw the replay that the puck didn the referee originally signalled goal but the video replay judges initiated contact with the referee claim that goal was fact scored this unheard seeing stuff like this happen gives bad feeling about the leaf chances this year cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	nhl final point standings individual leaders total points final standings note games played and points per games not accurate player team pts ppg prj pim lemieux pit lafontaine buf oates bos yzerman det turgeon nyi selanne win mogilny buf gilmour tor robitaille recchi phi sundin que stevens pit bure van tocchet pit roenick chi janney stl sakic que juneau bos hull stl andreychuk tor fleury cal francis pit housley win ciccarelli det damphousse mon hawerchuk buf shanahan stl muller mon jagr pit modano min messier nyr sanderson har reichel cal bellows mon fedorov det thomas nyi coffey det kurri bradley brind amour phi ronning van bondra was cassels har murphy pit bourque bos granato verbeek har ridley was duchesne que lemieux suter cal lebeau mon roberts cal semak hatcher was hunter was courtnall min brown stl ricci que kisio craven van courtnall van nolan que king nyi amonte nyr gagner min lindros phi hogue nyi nieuwendyk cal pivonka was borschevsky tor dahlen min richer emerson stl nedved van chelios chi carson zhamnov win kvartalnov bos steen win linden van mullen pit larmer chi donnelly kovalenko que gartner nyr khristich was sheppard det garpenlov iafrate was gretzky zalapski har graves nyr anderson tor zelepukin maciver ott dineen phi chiasson det ysebaert det galley phi mceachern pit nicholls keane mon flatley nyi young que shannon win fedyk phi blake olausson win makarov cal smith chi elynuik was stevens adams van tucker macinnis cal sutter chi bodger buf nemchinov nyr driver ruuttu chi yake har turcotte nyr sandstrom malakhov nyi ward van otto cal kontos leach bos poulin har tkachuk win savard mon norton nyi cullen tor cote was eklund phi olczyk nyr semenov van davydov win miller stl poulin bos klima edm dionne mon baker ott rucinsky que weight edm zhitnik maclean corson edm sweeney buf simpson edm hawgood phi johansson was miller was manson edm desjardins mon schneider mon goulet chi leclair mon drake det lumme van gaudreau gill tor turgeon ott probert det wood buf ranheim cal zamuner tinordi min paslawski cal ruzicka bos elik edm kudelski ott mcsorley shaw ott lidstrom det stastny ellett tor tikkanen nyr niedermayer racine det mcphee min millen chambers holik clark tor khmylev buf creighton krushelnyski tor kurvers nyi crossman stl kovalev nyr craig min krupp nyi momesso van kamensky que numminen win pearson tor graham chi leetch nyr ciger edm beers reid bos lapointe que sjodin min weinrich har borsato win zezel tor burr det donato bos benning edm howe det guerin hull ott sweeney bos nylander har beranek phi wesley bos matteau chi broten min leeman mon dalgarno nyi mellanby edm primeau det gilbert chi mullen nyi presley buf leschyshyn que zubov nyr mironov tor bureau brisebois mon heinze bos smehlik buf lemieux chi yushkevich phi evason mcinnis nyi noonan chi gallant det kennedy det hough que gusarov que mactavish edm buchberger edm janssens har samuelson pit sydor duchesne min falloon sandlak van carpenter was kron har ferraro nyi kravchuk edm plavsic van ron sutter stl cole odgers fitzgerald nyi fetisov korolev stl kypreos har andersson huddy rich sutter stl slegr van svoboda buf patrick nyr jones was lamb ott osborne tor may buf eagles win brunet mon green nyi stern cal lidster van haller mon tippett pit peluso ott dimaio brady ott freer ott cavallini que lachance nyi shaw bos berg tor ozolinsh klatt min loach todd edm ashton cal mcbain ott gelinas edm bautin win krygier was johnson min acton phi barnes win huffman que sutton buf mckay konstantinov det pellerin sillinger det volek nyi lindberg cal evans phi hamrlik gilchrist min churla min kasparaitis nyi loney pit courtenay wilson pederson lomakin phi druce win hannan buf corriveau har bourque nyr hiller det maltais burt har johansson cal marchment chi diduck van podein edm berehowsky tor babych van audette buf chorske bassen stl hatcher min kucera chi wilson stl macoun tor king win beukeboom nyr carkner phi neely bos foligno tor christian chi errey buf gavin min mcllwain tor daigneault mon ramage mon smith edm paek pit murphy chi dipietro mon pederson nattress phi carbonneau mon yawney cal kasatonov roberts bos macdermid was odjick van conacher cavallini was erickson win straka pit erixon nyr murphy bos ledyard buf butsayev phi ulanov win carter glynn edm boschman ott rumble ott stanton pit murzyn van musil cal may was foote que odelein mon andersson nyr archibald ott taylor lowe nyr domi win mccrimmon det konroyd det zombo stl butcher stl zmolek fergus van skrudland cal pantaleyev bos pearson que young bos smail ott hardy broten nyr barr taglianetti pit ewen mon bergevin finn que lefebvre tor sullivan ojanen reekie lindsay que ramsey pit valk van jelinek ott needham pit lowry stl rychel mcgill phi stapleton pit richardson edm rouse tor daneyko ogrodnick det king nyr joseph edm petit cal williams smith min bozon stl ronan mon dirk van hunter van luongo ott berube cal wilson cal vujtek edm konowalchuk was snuggerud phi murray chi donnelly buf dahl cal kasper more quintal stl ludwig min muni chi lazaro ott norwood stl featherstone bos murphy ott debrusk edm wells nyr kimble bos corkum buf dahlquist cal gordijuk buf hurlbut nyr boivin phi moller buf cunneyworth har petrovicky har mcrae stl cirella nyr maley daniels pit hughes bos lalor win samuelson pit mckenzie har kocur nyr loewen ott houlder buf sweeney bos douris bos keczmer har greig har day har werenka edm tatarinov que mcdonough hill mon brown chi loiselle nyi hudson edm hedican stl roberge mon ahola mcintyre nyr anderson was houda har hartman wilkinson hammond ott barrasso pit kennedy win eastwood tor quintin brown chi godynyuk cal rice edm murray bos wiemer bos berezan marois nyi mallette hynes phi gilhen chase stl vukota nyi zettler lafreniere propp min belanger mon kerr har shuchuk bergland vaske nyi carney buf dinnen ott albelin patterson buf ladouceur har russell chi lang lipuma brown kozlov det savage was bruce byers conroy phi van allen edm richer bos wolanin que leach har prokhorov stl kruse cal richter nyr bawa osiecki min matvichuk min pedersen har jennings pit essensa win ray buf mckim bos faust phi smolinski bos fogarty pit hervey picard reese cal romaniuk win thompson pilon nyi giles stl baron stl cheveldae det hankinson mcdougall edm felsner stl ruff petrov mon black min morris walter van hrivnak win wakaluk min dufresne mon cronin phi smyth cal hrudey marsh ott casey min berry min ranford edm belfour chi rivers forslund cal capuano djoos nyr cummins det otevrel kolstad osborne wood brickley win eakins win simon que bennett chi gillis har carlyle win nylund nyi blue bos watters woolley was whitmore van stauber young roussel phi twist que fiset que jablonski soderstrom phi healy nyi burke har hextall que roy mon vernon cal joseph stl brown phi grimson chi barnaby buf ratushny van zholtok bos sullivan duncanson nyr beaufait bowen phi macdonald buf esau que smith min vial det brown buf draper buf karpa que tichy chi gosselin har fortier hayward mcgill tor bergeron potvin berthiaume ott racicot mon wregget pit ciccone min puppa tor hackett fitzpatrick nyi billington potvin tor vanbiesbrouk nyr mclean van moog bos beaupre was baumgartner tor bales bos burridge was chabot mon alessio har littman parks nyi semchuk amour ott cimellaro ott cote marcinyshyn nyr neill win raglan williams charron mon ciavaglia buf cloutier que hamr ott wamsley tor hirsch nyr connor messier nyr knickle chapdelaine shannon tor agnew har waite chi langway was riendeau det hebert stl tabaracci was tugnutt edm caufield pit hasek buf pietrangelo har irbe terreri fuhr buf sidorkiewicz ott maurice richard
rec.sport.hockey	bruins canadiens you better add least another plus the pederson for neely trade the bruins also received number round draft pick didn play great this year but wesley still decent defenseman and the bruins got pederson back eventually anyway pat ellis bruins umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	keenan signs plus walsh well just read the boston globe that while not confirming denying anything walsh may end with the rangers organizations assistant coach keenan has talked with walsh the past came see kariya will coaching him the worlds funny guess got watch the ferraro brothers well not sure walsh will but keenan getting and walsh even gets that pay raise for walsh not mention nice career move anyone from new york hear anything about this pat ellis bruins umaine black bears number hockey east regulars season champions hockey east tournament champions paul kariya hobey baker award winner ncaa div hockey tournament champions ggggooooooo bbbllluueeee
rec.sport.hockey	div and conf names apr hubcap clemson edu jwodzia dlite uucp john wodziak writes sorry roger but basketbal should what really means here should have said that hopes fans the american southeast can follow the names the divisions the odds that these people other than those who are displaced notherners who are probably already fans the order the proverbial snowball hell not all clear about what you are trying say here you asked somone who had never heard hockey before played the smythe division what you think that the response would what you asked this person played the west division the naming divisions after long dead entrepreneurs unnecessary obfuscation glad that the names are being changed for another reason the names patrick smythe norris adams and campbell are all the names called builders the game this the same type thinking that put stein the hall fame this absolute nonsense the real builders the game are richard morenz howe conacher orr etc you are going name the divisions after people least name the divisions after people who deserve yes these people deserve recognigtion hockey greats but the old division names took into account messers patrick norris smythe and the prince who had alot more with the origins the league than people who came into already established situation much easier element change hardly the established situation existed prior smythe the stanley cup was challenge trophy for grabs whatever team could successfully mount the challenge what our dear founders did was formalize the challenge they created closed league oligop olistic professional system the interests making money wheth not that system has contributed better hockey certainly debatable are however stuck with their invention and that bate academic the point made however that people played hockey and people enjoyed watching hockey long before smythe and his pals showed standout existing situation than someone who creates new situation you want honor players like bobby orr than sure you can find reason name torphy after him such best offensive defenseman what wrong with best defenceman period was there ever better defenceman was there ever better player and you think that bruce norris contribution was somehow more significant than bobby orr then the interests education why don you take poll and find out how many people know who norris was but you don have you can for the reasons gave above the same boat jason and grew with the current divisonal names and learned them when was about years old and who played what division year old american can learn this why would hard for occasional fan pick who plays what division you don feel that you should have make the effort remember that vancouver plays the west division pacific whatever other intuitively understandable moniker chosen now see your point your intention has been alert the erosion purity bet you like hockey because for the most part played whites european extraction probably not case sure this what you said would like saying that all maple leafs fans are biased closed minded ignorant and course you neatly deleted jason jingoistic rant about the game losing its canadianization quoting out context does more erode your credibility than does mine position clearly progressive and anything but biased closed minded norant arrogant will grant you arrogant and moronic you just because someone doesn like what basketball doing voices their opinion and likes the senerio you going antartica does not mean that you have the right insult them nice try john but for flame truly effective you have display least enough intelligence earn your target respect cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	team pool tabulations thanks for the people who have entered this year team pool here summary what was picked round pittsburgh new jersey chicago louis boston buffalo vancouver winnipeg calgary los angeles detroit toronto washington new york islanders people picked new jersey quebec montreal round pittsburgh washington new york islanders boston quebec montreal detroit chicago toronto calgary vancouver los angeles winnipeg round pittsburgh boston quebec washington detroit chicago toronto vancouver calgary los angeles finals pittsburgh boston detroit toronto quebec los angeles chicago good luck all mike burger canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida beginning computing stud four months year over students served royal canadian air farce university michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	anyone have official shorthanded goal totals does anyone out there have the shorthanded goal totals the nhl players for this season trying finish our rotisserie stats and need shg make complete
rec.sport.hockey	predictions classic playoff year article dal paul dal writes stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs montreal canadiens the classic stanley cup final matchup also dream come true montreal wins the stanley cup the game double overtime you know after finished laughing thought this would great final two canadian teams with lots tradition and all that don cherry nonsense behind them and nail biter finish course would prefer vancouver montreal final with vancouver scoring the final goal pity neither will happen steve holland
rec.sport.hockey	truly sad day for hockey fine year history came close tonight the minnesota north stars norm stars whichever you prefer lost the red wings score the stars goals were scored mike mcphee and ulf dahlen who netted two including the final one franchise history with less than minute play yes shame that the nhl lost fine team one the best hockey markets the country being north stars fan sad see all the tradition the last years get thrown into oblivion the hands truly crappy owner hopefully the nhl will install expansion franchise the twin cities within the next five years even this the case lot has been lost the north stars move kea
rec.sport.hockey	possible canadian team nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes centers mark messier rangers messier was not invited due his nagging injuries while the press made issue and attempted link the rangers internal political woes mike keenan repeated that messier personally during the msg press conference makes sense messier would probably have not declined the invitation were made for publicity gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	how difficult get penguin tickets the subject line says all terribly difficult get tickets penguins games especially now that they are the playoffs would easy find scalpers outside the igloo selling tickets dean money dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft week standings well back from tokyo here are the standings after the april update andrew usenet hockey draft standings week posn team pts proj cash last posn dave wessels bob hill gilles carmel seppo kemppainen the awesome oilers hillside raiders mak the knife paranjape jan stein this years model rangers destiny tapio repo frank big fish the underachievers thin ice flames littlest giants mopar muscle men lindros losers die penguin bandwaggoners samuel lau calgary alberta boomer boys general accounting office delaware wombats migods menschen wellsy buttheads dec rocky mountain high fife flyers gerald olchowy dave snell fluide glacial gaoler smegheads the young and the skateless sam his dogs neural netters youngbucs artic storm soft swedes jeff horvath milton keynes kings hamster from hoboken kuehn crushers fleur lys yan the man loke legion hoth simmonac the finnish force ice legion streaks brian bergman goaldingers overachievers grant marven bozrah bruins real bad toe jam houdini magicians skriko wolves rec sport hockey choices buffalo soldiers bemybaby lippe randy coulman lamp lighters steven and mark dream team indianapolis bennies tom bloom county all stars bruins phil and kev karma dudes smithw iowa hockeyes doug bowles the great pumpkin non shooting seamen frank worthless aik exiles invisible inc brad gibson cougarmania kortelaisen kovat plp fools david wong john zupancic garryola gary bergman fan club staffan axelsson chubby checkers derrill dastardly dozen chocolate rockets ken decruyenaere fisher dirtbags kodiaks namers the campi machine bsc oranienburg the kamucks arsenal maple leafs ellis islanders mombasa mosquitos zachmans wingers edelweiss bjoern leaguen dirty white socks wormtown woosbags neil younger hurricane andrew king suke larry het schot hard votenooct bloodgamers bruce rented mules teem kanada frank follies oklahoma stormchasers spuds pond slime psv dartmouth mark sanders blue talon stanford ice hawks aye carumba kokudo keikaku bunnies timo ojala haral cluster buster dirty rotten puckers apricot fuzzfaces the lost poots nesbitt gary bill pens dynasty garys team arctic circles seattle pftb late night with david letterman groupe bruins scott glenn flying kiwis team gold closet boy boys wild hearted sons boutch andy wong wembley lostweekenders mckees rocks rockers book danno bushbabies dree hobbs habs goddess fermentation tim rogers convex stars einstein rock band princeton canucks tap hubert hockey homeboys buttered waffles team bob blues furleys furies hunters collectors les nordiques satan choice joel fleishman sundogs pierre mailhot slap shot marco san jose mahi mahi the leafs rule jeff nimeroff stimpy adg zeta the dreamers east city jokers daryl turner riding the pine flowers darse billings chappel chumps lana inc spinal tap jimparker enforcers jeff bachovchin big bad bruins mike mac cormack sydney can bulldogs voyageurs absolut lehigh republican dirty tricksters henry bar and the bunch misfits robyns team yellow plague ninja turtles team melville acadien darman dragons kuta papercuts great expectations cobra killers cherry bombers jayson kinky pucks killer apes kaufbeuren icebreakers umpire life roger smith firebirds those few weeks hurt ikea wholesale outlaws the club thundering herd believe dont creeping death knee injuries crazy euros frack attack todd turkeys ryan renegades fred mckim hurricane pig vomit ice strykers fighting geordies cdn stuck alabama dayton bomber cafall and crew chris death swillbellies banko beer rangers zipper heads flames ship way laubsters joliet inmates ninja bunnies great scott widefield white wolves the ice holes sandy sabres daves team south carolina tiger paws florida tech burgh team leos blue chips for xtc roadrunners mudville kings new jersey rob redliners pat phillips stewart clamen demon spawn sunnyvale storm allez les blues for sale hockey club petes picks rinaco brenz revenge dinamo riga andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	usenet hockey draft week price list here the price list for the week april april andrew buy sell pts team player pit mario lemieux buf pat lafontaine bos adam oates det steve yzerman wpg teemu selanne nyi pierre turgeon tor doug gilmour buf alexander mogilny phi mark recchi luc robitaille que mats sundin pit kevin stevens van pavel bure stl craig janney pit rick tocchet chi jeremy roenick que joe sakic stl brett hull cgy theoren fleury pit ron francis tor dave andreychuk bos joe juneau wpg phil housley mtl vincent damphousse mtl kirk muller det dino ciccarelli buf dale hawerchuk min mike modano nyr mark messier stl brendan shanahan pit jaromir jagr mtl brian bellows jari kurri det sergei fedorov cgy robert reichel det paul coffey wsh peter bondra hfd geoff sanderson brian bradley nyi steve thomas pit larry murphy phi rod brind amour bos ray bourque que steve duchesne hfd andrew cassels tony granato wsh dale hunter wsh mike ridley hfd pat verbeek mtl stephan lebeau cgy gary suter van cliff ronning claude lemieux que mike ricci van murray craven stl jeff brown wsh kevin hatcher nyr tony amonte kelly kisio alexander semak min russ courtnall min dave gagner tor nikolai borschevsky phi eric lindros jimmy carson cgy joe nieuwendyk van geoff courtnall min ulf dahlen nyi derek king wsh michal pivonka que owen nolan bos dmitri kvartalnov stl nelson emerson chi chris chelios nyi benoit hogue stephane richer wpg thomas steen wpg alexei zhamnov chi steve larmer pit joe mullen nyr mike gartner van petr nedved van trevor linden mike donnelly wsh dmitri khristich wsh iafrate det ray sheppard que andrei kovalenko hfd zarley zalapski nyr adam graves johan garpenlov tor glenn anderson wayne gretzky ott norm maciver phi garry galley det steve chiasson det paul ysebaert valeri zelepukin mtl mike keane phi brent fedyk pit shawn mceachern rob blake nyi pat flatley que scott young wpg darrin shannon phi kevin dineen bernie nicholls cgy sergei makarov chi steve smith wsh pat elynuik van greg adams scott stevens john tucker wpg fredrik olausson nyr sergei nemchinov nyr darren turcotte cgy macinnis chi christian ruuttu chi brent sutter hfd terry yake van dixon ward wpg keith tkachuk bos stephen leach tor john cullen mtl denis savard nyr olczyk van anatoli semenov wsh sylvain cote nyi vladimir malakhov nyi jeff norton hfd patrick poulin bos dave poulin tomas sandstrom edm petr klima john maclean edm doug weight mtl gilbert dionne alexei zhitnik edm shayne corson que martin rucinsky wpg evgeny davydov stl kevin miller edm craig simpson wsh kelly miller phi pelle eklund chi michel goulet edm dave manson ott sylvain turgeon cgy paul ranheim mtl mathieu schneider min mark tinordi det bob probert edm todd elik nyr esa tikkanen bos vladimir ruzicka ott bob kudelski peter stastny tor dave ellett ott brad shaw det niklas lidstrom bobby holik tor wendel clark nyr alexei kovalev buf yuri khmylev min mike mcphee tor rob pearson van sergio momesso nyr brian leetch chi dirk graham adam creighton que valery kamensky edm zdeno ciger corey millen bos ted donato tor peter zezel min neal broten mtl gary leeman edm scott mellanby buf wayne presley det keith primeau nyi brian mullen phi josef beranek chi stephane matteau bos steve heinze phi dmitri yushkevich hfd mikael nylander buf richard smehlik tor dmitri mironov chi brian noonan pat falloon stl igor korolev wsh bob carpenter nyr james patrick buf petr svoboda ott mark lamb nyi scott lachance mtl benoit brunet mikael andersson edm martin gelinas wpg sergei bautin tor bill berg edm kevin todd nyi david volek nyi ray ferraro min brent gilchrist hfd yvon corriveau nyr phil bourque nyi darius kasparaitis det jim hiller phi andrei lomakin buf donald audette roman hamrlik bos cam neely mark pederson pit martin straka chi joe murphy nyr peter andersson ott tomas jelinek janne ojanen steve kasper min bobby smith ray whitney hfd robert petrovicky buf viktor gordijuk tor joe sacco que mikhail tatarinov peter ahola chi rob brown bos glen murray hfd tim kerr min brian propp wsh reggie savage stl vitali prokhorov robert lang edm shaun van allen min dan quinn det viacheslav kozlov bos jozef stumpel pit bryan fogarty mtl olav petrov stan drulia wsh jason woolley claude vilgrain mtl patrick kjellberg ott alexei yashin wsh randy burridge edm dean mcammond cgy cory stillman brent gretzky buf jason dawe wsh brian sakic van igor larionov chi sergei krivokrasov que peter forsberg andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	aargh great hockey coverage devils locked away waiting for the tape delay start nice that the devils are starting out their playoffs network television too bad that their playoff game has been preempted wabc for early season yankees baseball game win the texas rangers and they delaying the tape delay another half hour for the ballgame highlights gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played fri april philadelphia hartford first period hartford nylander unassisted philadelphia recchi lindros brind amour second period hartford burt cunneyworth kron philadelphia bowen eklund recchi hartford nylander zalapski sanderson third period hartford kron sanderson cassels philadelphia beranek lomakin yushkevich philadelphia faust brind amour roussel overtime philadelphia yushkevich faust philadelphia power play scorer pts beranek bowen brind amour eklund faust lindros lomakin recchi roussel yushkevich hartford power play scorer pts burt cassels cunneyworth kron nylander sanderson zalapski new jersey islanders first period islanders turgeon unassisted islanders thomas malakhov king islanders ferraro dalgarno malakhov second period new jersey niedermayer richer nicholls islanders mullen vaske dalgarno islanders thomas hogue norton new jersey zelepukin unassisted new jersey richer nicholls daneyko islanders hogue flatley ferraro third period islanders turgeon unassisted new jersey semak lemieux driver islanders turgeon king pilon islanders power play scorer pts dalgarno ferraro flatley hogue king malakhov mullen norton pilon thomas turgeon vaske new jersey power play scorer pts daneyko driver lemieux nicholls niedermayer richer semak zelepukin rangers washington first period rangers graves zubov andersson washington ridley unassisted second period washington hatcher johansson third period washington jones may washington cote khristich pivonka rangers gartner amonte andersson washington power play scorer pts cote hatcher johansson jones khristich may pivonka ridley rangers power play scorer pts amonte andersson gartner graves zubov
rec.sport.hockey	how difficult get penguin tickets article apr magnus acs ohio state edu dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu dean money writes the subject line says all terribly difficult get tickets penguins games especially now that they are the playoffs would easy find scalpers outside the igloo selling tickets dean money dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu here traditional experience with tickets playoffs and otherwise the civic arena scalping illegal but nonetheless present outside the arena best strategy given that you don mind missing the anthem which taylor decides come back ever again wait until when the game rolling the scalpers are this point desperate sell and will reduce near face value get rid their tickets playoffs are little different that good seats will early what left may nosebleed material sections others can add their opinions well kevin stamber purdue university penguins devils pens lead series game none
rec.sport.hockey	did the blues pull out when left was blues with predicted was right the first place blues yes course only one game that could the hawks stab the face wake them that what playoffs are about any given day robbie pgh penguins what comes naturally patrick division semi stanley cup you see now wait for the penguins devils champions possibility don you see penguins lead straight wins strong resemblance
rec.sport.hockey	playoff pool entry form well thanks everyone who has entered far there are least entries and hopefully more people will enter before the deadline which today sunday april the interest fairness since will win anyway feel only right actually tell everyone picks that you all won cry rigged after declare myself the winner here they are series your pick games division semifinals pittsburgh new jersey pittsburgh washington islanders islanders boston buffalo boston quebec montreal quebec chicago louis chicago detroit toronto detroit vancouver winnipeg winnipeg calgary los angeles calgary division finals patrick pittsburgh adams quebec norris chicago smythe calgary conference finals wales pittsburgh campbell chicago stanley cup winner pittsburgh keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff pool important got back from trip discover that email spool file got blown away missing all the playoff pool entries sent between april and april looks like about entries got lost sigh therefore would like ask each person that sent team resend asap relying your honesty not make changes after the deadline today thanks advance and apologize for the problem andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	aargh great hockey coverage devils article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare wrote locked away waiting for the tape delay start nice that the devils are starting out their playoffs network television too bad that their playoff game has been preempted wabc for early season yankees baseball game win the texas rangers and they delaying the tape delay another half hour for the ballgame highlights you think that bad bowling green and get abc from toledo well the cable decided totally pre empt the game tape delay nothing for stupid telethon hockey very big around here too had listen penguins win car radio out the parking lot can just thankful for strong radio because being miles from pittsburgh the reception usually isn good all can believe picked during the middle the day george
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils are people here stupid what tie breaker cause they have have the same record how can people sooooo stuppid put win first the list for tie breaker tie breaker how can there different record man thought people this net are good with hockey might not great math but tell how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can believe people actually put win first tie breaker
rec.sport.hockey	blues steal game from hawks the blues scored two power play goals seconds the third period and the beat the chicago blackhawks sunday afternoon chicago stadium brendan shanahan tied the game and brett hull scored the game winner seconds later jeff brown and denny felsner scored the other blues goals brian noonan had the hat trick for the hawks who also had some very good goaltending from belfour blues goalie curtis joseph was solid down the stretch preserve the blues lead the hawks came out strong the first period outshooting the blues and taking lead noonan first goal right after interference penalty rick zombo had expired keith brown intercepted clearing attempt the blue line and passed the puck steve larmer the right circle larmer fired long slap shot and noonan deflected the puck between joseph pads after the goal the blues picked the intensity and went outshoot the hawks the first period jeff brown tied the game the second nelson emerson broke the left side got craig muni and pushed the puck across the slot belfour came out play the pass and shoveled the right boards where brown collected and slapped before belfour could get back the goal two minutes later hawks power play belfour stopped rich sutter short handed break chris chelios picked the puck and passed jeremy roenick who carried right wing and found open noonan with nice pass across the slot noonan fired past joseph for the lead noonan completed his hat trick later increase the hawks lead stephane matteau made nice pass from the right boards noonan who beat stephane quintal driving the net joseph had chance noonan deflected the puck the net denny felsner reduced the blues deficit after picking the rebound basil mcrae slap shot from the slot janney set mcrae for the shot and the puck sailed wide the net and bounced off the end boards felsner felsner sticked the rebound into the partially open net the blues outshot the hawks the second period with the blackhawks leading the third stephane matteau picked high sticking penalty just seconds into the power play steve smith was called for slashing giving the blues advantage for the blues didn waste time brendan shanahan scored just seconds into the two man advantage tie the game janney found hull the slot and hull fired rocket belfour jeff brown collected the rebound and passed shanahan the left circle shanahan beat belfour from sharp angle just seconds later hull scored the game winner for the blues nelson emerson broke right wing carried the puck behind the net along with two hawks defensemen emerson made nice pass unchecked hull the slot and hull beat belfour put the blues the hawks had several chances tie the game the final minutes but joseph made some brilliant saves prevent the hawks from scoring stopped troy murray point blank from just right the crease with left the game the blues killed off late hawks power play with rich sutter clearing the puck with his hand was trickling along the goal line the blues held win the game the hawks oushot the blues the third period totaling shots goal for each team the blues special teams were excellent the game the blues killed hawks power plays and scored twice four power play chances the blues ranked among the best special teams the league they rank penalty killing and the power play the game was carried live abc the first time nhl game other than all star game has been shown network television since may when cbs carried game the stanley cup finals the best seven series continues wednesday chicago and friday and sunday louis box score blues blackhawks blues chicago first period chi noonan larmer brown penalties shanahan stl holding zombo stl interference murphy chi high sticking grimson chi boarding zombo stl holding second period stl brown shanahan emerson chi ppg noonan roenick chelios chi noonan matteau sutter stl felsner mcrae janney penalties baron stl interference wilson stl tripping third period stl ppg shanahan brown hull stl ppg hull emerson brown penalties shanahan stl roughing matteau chi high sticking smith chi slashing baron stl roughing shots goal blues chicago power play opportunities louis chicago goaltenders louis joseph shots saves chicago belfour referee kerry fraser linesmen kevin collins brian murphy joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils lrw rpi edu wangr vccsouth its rpi edu rex wang writes might not great math but tell how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can believe people actually put win first tie breaker well don see any smileys here trying figure out the poster dog wordprocessor couldn neither both are smarter than this might not great math cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	aargh great hockey coverage devils article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare says locked away waiting for the tape delay start think this guy going just little bit disappointed lemieux two tocchet mullen tippett and jagr buzzed friend because forgot who had scored mullen goal said who scored lemieux two tocchet tippett jagr the funny part was said the jagr part non chalantly was the process scoring while was asking this question all all abc coverage wasn bad scale give about how were the games the chi louis area nice that the devils are starting out their playoffs network television too bad that their playoff game has been preempted wabc for early season yankees baseball game that stupid complain the television network were even see pirates game instead penguins game this time the year and many other pittsburghers would surely raise hell win the texas rangers and they delaying the tape delay another half hour for the ballgame highlights texas off good start they may pull out this year whoops that belongs rec sport baseball robbie pgh penguins what comes naturally patrick division semi stanley cup you see now wait for the penguins devils champions possibility don you see penguins lead straight wins strong resemblance
rec.sport.hockey	was right the first place article vzhivov cunews vzhivov superior carleton vladimir zhivov says rap psuvm psu edu robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes red wings maple leafs maple leafs comment kind tough rely yzerman the team main weapon great palyer but dino knows all about choking which puts the burden steve even more potvin had hell season and goaltending what you need the playoffs for great prognosticator you seem remember very little playoff history dino always shows the playoffs which why great sleeper pick pools don forget about fedorov one the top players the nhl imho and coffey who has the most stanley cup rings any active players correct wrong wings cakewalk yeah how come dino could never take the caps out the patrick division choked games last year and got swept away the second round two years ago rarely ever makes out the division canucks jets canucks comment more like vancouver selanne king and domi for enforcing help winnipeg out little maybe game canucks have their number except that the canuck are playing like shit winnipeg can win this one though think vancouver will manage slip are the islanders but they can still pull out vancouver has winnipeg number really doesn matter flames kings flames comment games looks good the kings always seem battle out flames are back running and won know memories last year season gretzky tear but there are too many surrounding the kings kings always seem battle out when where kings always seem least they never play four five game serious there difference between battling out and pulling out take calgary pull out robbie pgh penguins what comes naturally patrick division semi stanley cup you see now wait for the penguins devils champions possibility don you see penguins lead straight wins strong resemblance
rec.sport.hockey	daigle kariya hear daigle will the first pick next year what the word kariya anybody ever seen him play also entering the draft
rec.sport.hockey	umass big east hockey underway the mission revive hockey umass now underway the saturday afternoon press conference held the new mullins center arena former boston college asst coach joe mallen was awarded the year year contract head coach for the umass minutemen mallen was the third viable pick for the position right behind jeff jackson lake superior and second behind shawn walsh umaine previous offers for the position were rumored have been offered the asst coaches brown rpi and the head coach the ahl springfield indians umass hockey was disbanded due financial constraints that had undermined the team position over period years late november last year the million mullins sports center was opened following its one year construction deadline the minutemen are slated play independent div div iii schedule this upcoming winter before officially entering hockey east for the winter season mallen has yet comment player recruitment strategies potential team candidates for the minutemen expected that will leverage off his inside contacts within new england the bay state and europe draw competitive top ice players for the university umass has slated hockey scholarships for the upcoming fall semester expect hear more from hear more from sources jim doyle univ massachusetts dept computer science staff programmer puma dcc cnet email doyle gaia umass edu office lederle grc room tel home blackberry tel amherst
rec.sport.hockey	how difficult get penguin tickets article apr magnus acs ohio state edu dmoney magnus acs ohio state edu dean money writes the subject line says all terribly difficult get tickets penguins games especially now that they are the playoffs would easy find scalpers outside the igloo selling tickets there are always scalpers with tickets outside the arena you might have pay few bucks extra but you can always find them look the street under the message board out the street front the hyatt even around gate the later you buy them the less money you pay and during the regular season you could usually find some for near face value below you wait until game time might better pick them earlier now though rick
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils lrw rpi edu wangr vccsouth its rpi edu rex wang writes are people here stupid what tie breaker cause they have have the same record how can people sooooo stuppid put win first the list for tie breaker tie breaker how can there different record man thought people this net are good with hockey might not great math but tell how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can believe people actually put win first tie breaker why not believe both the devils and islanders got points say for example another team had this record they had which the same their points total the islanders and devils records are both simple arithmetics and involve calculus john computer science graduate who pretends mathematican
rec.sport.hockey	bruins canadiens article apr rose com jack petrilli rose com jack petrilli writes april richard amc com richard wernick wrote boston you know sinden going find some way screwing even this good boston team fire suter trade away vital star admittedly his last few trades have been good ones but how long before his luck runs out and starts making esposito for ratelle type trades again how was this trade bad seem recall ratelle and middleton making pretty good centre right wing combination and the bruins also got brad park the deal and they also lost vadnais and somebody else after the trade the bruins were two finals and one semi final all which course they lost montreal which should please you end doubt however keeping esposito would have made difference those series did not for the rangers any his years boston for that matter riston riston
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team milwaukee well put jason not from wisconsin but have close relatives who live port washington about minutes north milwaukee visit the city regularly and have been the bradley four times see the admirals play and the ncaa hockey championships beautiful building the pettits and the city like promote the best facility for hockey north america what will happen with the admirals milwaukee does acquire franchise word the team will move green bay and play the brown county arena once again the admirals are independent franchise and the people milwaukee have been supporting them well the games have been have seen crowds anywhere from which are numbers some nhl teams the islanders hartford new jersey would envious having some nights plus the fact that the city able support minor league franchise without the glamour having nhl club affiliated testimony the amount hockey interest exists the city sincerely martin hill box sault ste marie home lssu lakers anybody know what the attendance figures are for the ihl and how milwaukee stacks against other ihl cities such atlanta phoenix san diego cleveland and cincinnati please reply
rec.sport.hockey	div and conf names maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes edu jason gibson writes can live with the other changes that have been made the playoff format change but the change the division and conference names really annoys batman was tsn last night saying that changing the names would make the game easier for the occasional fan follow should have said what meant that changing the names will make the game easier for americans non hockey cities follow don know too many friends who had hard time following which teams were each division even minimal amount exposure the game allows person quickly pick this there nothing wrong with making the game easier for americans follow the more fans the merrier and even you dislike the occasional fan there always the chance that these fans will become fanatics glad that the names are being changed for another reason the names patrick smythe norris adams and campbell are all the names called builders the game this the same type thinking that put stein the hall fame this absolute nonsense the real builders the game are richard morenz howe conacher orr etc you are going name the divisions after people least name the divisions after people who deserve think that you are incorrect roger patrick smythe and adams all played coached the league before becoming front office types hence they did help build the league although they were not great players themselves agree that name name name and some people have trouble with names that are not easily processed the fans then changing them names that are more easily processed seems like reasonable idea can get people the arena door being uncomplicated then let once have them they will realize what great game hockey and can then teach them something abotu the history the game the history the names can put rather succinctly all the aforemen tioned used the game hockey make money can you imagine pocklington division ballard division how about green division would not want see ballard division but say that these owners are assholes hence all nhl management people are assholes would fallacious conn smythe for example was classy individual from what have heard also isn the point professional hockey make money for all those involved which would include the players what think you might saying that the players have not made much money should have been their due and the players that are what make the game great not the people who put them the ice naming division after management people rather than players adding insult the form lesser recognition injury less money than was deserved evan pritchard number depending the hockey pool epritcha psych uiuc edu
rec.sport.hockey	aargh great hockey coverage devils robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare says locked away waiting for the tape delay start think this guy going just little bit disappointed why calling this penguins only that with the way things stand the only radio game that hour from the devils wabc nice have sony watchman but need paranoid robbie don judge geographic coordinates jets over nordiques the final gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	div and conf names pdgi ljl news cso uiuc edu epritcha psych uiuc edu evan pritchard writes think that you are incorrect roger patrick smythe and adams all played coached the league before becoming front office types hence they did help build the league although they were not great players themselves punch imlach contributions coach and were far greater than those the above combined should name division trophy after him smythe and norris and the bunch were honoured purely because they were powerful owners owners they certainly did help build the league but whether they developed the game another question altogether are going honour those who contributed the league evolution are going honour those who contributed the glory the sport itself agree that name name name and some people have trouble with names that are not easily processed the fans then changing them names that are more easily processed seems like reasonable idea can get people the arena door being uncomplicated then let once have them they will realize what great game hockey and can then teach them something abotu the history the game can disagree with you here the history the names can put rather succinctly all the aforemen tioned used the game hockey make money can you imagine pocklington division ballard division how about green division would not want see ballard division but say that these owners are assholes hence all nhl management people are assholes would fallacious conn smythe for example was classy individual from what have heard what have you heard the major was the definitive little asshole originated the phrase you can beat the alley you can beat the ice that was his idea hockey you think chance that don cherry classy individual also isn the point professional hockey make money for all those involved which would include the players what think you might saying that the players have not made much money should have been their due and the players that are what make the game great not the people who put them the ice naming division after management people rather than players adding insult the form lesser recognition injury less money than was deserved the money issue irrelevant the point that would agree and that the players that are what make the game great and not the people who put them the ice exactly true naming divisions and trophies after smythe and the bunch the same kind nepotism that put stein the hall fame have always thought that this was nonsense cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	div and conf names epritcha psych uiuc edu evan pritchard writes would not want see ballard division but say that these owners are assholes hence all nhl management people are assholes would fallacious conn smythe for example was classy individual from what have heard depends what you mean classy from what heard about him was about classy harold ballard only difference was that back then almost all the owners were like that seemed okay comparison read the book net worth for one view what smythe and norris and adams and campbell were like also isn the point professional hockey make money for all those involved which would include the players what think you might saying that the players have not made much money should have been their due and the players that are what make the game great not the people who put them the ice naming division after management people rather than players adding insult the form lesser recognition injury less money than was deserved even more specifically think what roger was saying and said previously too that these are not the people who made the league great why should divisions conferences etc named after them instead morenz vezina howe orr etc the people who did make great instead the nhl has chosen immortalize the men who got rich off the men who made the game great chris roney mail chris roney sfu
rec.sport.hockey	numerical nothingness article apr freenet carleton freenet carleton bob wilson writes mario averaged points per game the antigretz gretzky averaged pts game mario projected over games points beats wayne record check your information before posting gretzky record pts games over games points over games gretzky total projected points pitt winning percentage with mario over games points would this have been record know mtl had one year the canadiens had percentage pts games the bruins had winning percentage also the canadiens had percentage with record bob wilson freenet carleton joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff stats scores for updated playoff updates scores stats summaries mail mmilitzo skidmore edu with the subject stats
rec.sport.hockey	rangers name keenan coach clarinews clarinet com upi writes clari sports hockey new york upi mike keenan whose nhl coaching history has been wear out his welcome despite impressive penchant for winning has come the city that embraces victors above all else well could become fan seriously this news coming since thursday has effectively robbed the islanders and the devils any airtime sports talk shows almost everywhere that sampled fact the playoffs almost don exist now ranger fans calling wfan new york one midnight sports talk were mix fury over this season and near orgasm over keenan hiring summarizing keenan winner and will give the broadway bums business pursuing the next cup chase the chicago blackhawks cut their last tie with keenan when was forced out general manager november had given chicago coaching duties year ago and his thirst for the power now increases the pressure beleaguered rangers neil smith this will interesting combination watch keenan has been paid enough money put and shut and just coach but his advice any player moves will listened closely lot big player moves will happen remember that keenan got rid denis savard the country club days are over when keenan left chicago couldn help but think about him our coach smith said there was indication would taken off the market feared that and couldn let that happen paramount had given smith earlier sign support and offered keenan the big money put and shut back january the rangers might not heading for golf now keenan takes demoralized team that offers him chance fashion yet another his reclamation projects the highest salary ever commanded nhl coach the rangers owned gulf western have bestowed upon keenan unprecedented million four year deal known mike long time messier said won two canada cups together been the finals three times maybe miss just one more element win the stanley cup don think the same person was years ago even five years ago think has changed and bettered himself with experience one keenan first statements was reaffirmation that mark messier will the team captain the timing the move gives the rangers new coach months prepare for the nhl draft june and neil smith may not back off the their trade happy pattern then smith might have some bargains keenan advice like maybe unloading phil bourque for tie domi gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	abc canada was the abc coverage the kings flames game supposed the way was shown with cbc overriding the abc coverage when flipped abc was the same commentators same commercials even question was this the real abc coverage did cbc just black out the abc coverage for its own comment cbc had great chance for some double headers toronto detroit and vancouver winnipeg but today they said that the east gets the leafs and the west get the vancouver game thought that they would show them both the godfather
rec.sport.hockey	college hockey all star game does anybody know the details the shriners all star game that featured the best seniors college hockey game orono maine you please reply
rec.sport.hockey	corrections playoff predictions everyone read this you have already sent your predictions please correct the patrick division you would like you have until midnight monday time you may need correct these games pittsburgh new jersey new york islanders washington patrick division winner wales conference winner stanley cup winner please forward all corrections richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo pens over isles devils over caps pens over devils
rec.sport.hockey	what are you smoking wasre predictions classic playoff year norris division tor det tor this like mon que will another intense series watch chi tor tor potvin will settling nicely this point vancouver toronto toronto potvin will series mvp this what kills stanley cup finals toronto maple leafs montreal canadiens the classic stanley cup final matchup also dream come true montreal wins the stanley cup the game double overtime roy and potvin are spectacular throughout the series and share series mvp that possible vincent damphouse nets game winner from brilliant pass brian bellows canadiens star denis savard watched his buddies play from the owners box nursing that splinter his thumb which has left him the disabled list since the first game the playoffs awww shucks paul die hard habs fan living with die hard leafs fans speaking die hard that what did when read this died hard laughing toronto the cup finals first all has anyone the planet heard the team from detroit morgani however you spell the idiot name must from chicago because espn said not even close chicago will definatly win the norris division the playoffs other team close everyone picking chicago don get says easy choice god chicago was against the wings and they won the division point two followed closely toronto who also good team for the leafs beating detroit doubt but even they they aren going get chicago even more amazingly they get past the hawks they would probably face vancouver and lose for the habs reaching the finals forget even devoted wings fan will watch the penguins easily three peat cup winners lemieux jagr tocchet stevens and barrasso its done deal sorry detroit wait til next year but hey these were paul picks and everyone has right their own opinnions but the leafs the finals yeah they make there walk toronto get some tickets and that mile walk ryan detroit red wings the forgotten team wings let hope the penguins out early
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains the mist the rangers soap box captain nemesis ier coach roger nebula bad blood bath and with high hopes turned new coach klean commissar keenan would like know what procedures hockey teams use select their captains including are they selected the coaching staff the players vote for captain are they appointed management and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated mike
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains apr ann arbor applicon slb com colling ann arbor applicon slb com michael collingridge writes and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other the leafs have always been kind comical during the second imlach era when darryl sittler was called cancer the team tore the off his sweater and for while the leafs didn have captain sittler eventually ended philly and was promised the philly captaincy new and sittler friend bobby clarke instead sittler got traded detroit rick vaive was the leaf captain for awhile but slept one day and they took the captaincy away from him then was traded chicago during doug carpenter tenure leaf coach attempt kiss the ass sulking gary leeman the leafs took the away from brad marsh give leeman leeman wouldn take and when they tried give back marsh wouldn take neither the best story remember about captain concerned mel bridgman late the senators while was philadelphia bobby clarke arguably one the great captains all time was bumped the status playing coach and had relinquish the captaincy bridgman came the new captain reporter asked flyer what bridgman did captain since clarke was still the undisputed leader amongst the players the reporter was told that bridgman was charge making sure that the soap dispensers the showers were always full cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils article lrw rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes are people here stupid what tie breaker cause they have have the same record how can people sooooo stuppid put win first the list for tie breaker tie breaker how can there different record man thought people this net are good with hockey might not great math but tell how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can believe people actually put win first tie breaker golly love stupid people listen rex this hockey the nhl precise and the nhl there exist these things called ties tie occurs when game ends with the score for each team equal each team gets one point for tie there also exits these things called wins win when one team has higher score than the opponent yeah only two teams play each other time can say the opponent team gets two points for win let say that team has record wins losses and ties another team has record wins losses and ties the first team has points the second team has points wow they both have the same number points but the number wins different how did they that that amazing rex when people talk about wins being the first tiebreaker well then that what means our example the second team would win the tiebreaker and therefore have the better record even though both teams had the same number points you didn understand this post rex maybe you should back and read again very slowly keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta hockey hell well not that bad but still pretty pissed the local abc coverage they cut off the first half hour coverage playing david brinkley instead earlier time slot don even understand their problem they didnt think enough people would not watch the game why would they decide show most the game and they showed the remaining hours the game would hurt play david brinkley its regular time they dont have any decent programming before noon anyway called the sports dept and blasted them their machine called gain and someone picked when asked him why they premepted the first half hour the stanley cup playoffs seemed bit confused when explained bit more detail then said that upto our programming dept call back monday weel understand that the sports dept not responsible for this preemption but can understand how someone the sports dept can even recognise the name playoffs shown the very same station works for anyway going call them tomorrow and blast them the phone again urge all atlanta hockey fans call wsb and ask them not the same thing for the next weeks pravin ratnam the way pens rule
rec.sport.hockey	ooops picture you will the habs going into the last couple minutes the game leading the nords get power play pull hextall and get goal bout minute later they get another one then they win overtime bad dream how that red hot chili peppers song give away give away give away now well suppose can always watch the leafs win tomorrow night smilies the only female hockey fan the world susan carroll clark sclark epas utoronto
rec.sport.hockey	nords habs was robbed aargh paul stewart the worst and most biased ref presently the nhl called total penalties the habs and one the nordiques the nords penalty came stewart being nordique himself was looking call penalties the habs while letting the nords get away with murder was robbed was excellent game with plenty end end rushes and tremendous goalkeeping the nords tied with over minute while lebeau was serving penalty don mind stewart calling penalty the last min the game but least fair about the nords were caught with their hand the cookie jar more than once stewart turned the other cheek bastard patrick roy collapsed after letting the tieing goal was shaky and his knees for the rest the night the winning goal shouldn have gone don get wrong not blaming the loss stewart the habs had plenty chances capitalize muller leclair haller etc but failed put the puck the net that what did them but stewart didn help matters all well least the bruins lost also ooo ooo the czar mainframe computing jbe musicb mcgill mcgill university too sexy for cobol habs will beat the nords let expos hickory dickory doc she took good look your cock really scary all rinkled and hairy smells like year old sock andrew dice clay disclaimer needless say that the opinions expressed the czar represent those the faculty staff and students mcgill university
rec.sport.hockey	truly sad day for hockey article alvstad mari acc admin stolaf edu mad dog reports fine year history came close tonight the minnesota north stars norm stars whichever you prefer lost the red wings score the stars goals were scored mike mcphee and ulf dahlen who netted two including the final one franchise history with less than minute play are there any further stories report the eve norm farewell from the twin cities earlier post was announced that norm green was given until midnight the last home game the north stars cleanup his belongings and turn the keys the arena did this happen was norm run out town rumor has that while was attempting remove the score board the score board fell the ice and flattened greedy large piece green paper arena management had use the zamboni which they confiscated from norm truck clean the useless remains mike
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta hockey hell mamatha devineni ratnam andrew cmu edu writes can understand how someone the sports dept can even recognise the name playoffs shown the very same station works for you think that bad one year had all three new york teams the playoffs and the cableco operator scny once shared channel with bet but someone forgot throw the switch didn know what was talking about while nice that the nhl back american network faces the same problems did with the all star game local preemptions and zero promotion okay don watch that much just foaming all right the league should have made sure that was solid cable before going the networks year one the new espn contract the saturation coverage sca all other games shown completion like the quebec montreal and sabres bruins overtimes missed around here gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	flames truly brutal loss the subject suggests the flames were not impressive this afternoon dropping decision the kings most the flames neglected show especially their own zone the kings hit least five posts the flames best line was probably skrudland paslawski berube which tells how bad the flames were gary suter scored great goal fact all three flame goals were scored men yawney and dahlquist getting the others but also made some bonehead plays for the kings pat conacher was especially impressive the games was very chippy dan mirouelli lost control early and never recovered there were high sticks cross checks punches hits from behind fleury got game misconduct for rubbing out warren rychel from behind flames dominated the game physically but failed take advantage due horrendous defensive lapses don think vernon can blamed for any the goals calgary went with men roger johansson played looked lost imho hope king inserts chris lindbergh paul kruse sergei makarov for wednesday game gretzky left the game the period with charley horse idea how serious didn return still think the flames should win this series but they better buckle down vlad the impaler
rec.sport.hockey	playoff pool update well have compiled some statistics the entries pool there are unofficially entrants here are the stats what teams were picked win all pittsburgh sweep boston detroit montreal toronto this wasn roger calgary quebec vancouver washington why the hell hasn anybody picked chicago nobody quebec got pick detroit got but absolutely chicago how odd here are the losers detroit chicago there they are pittsburgh vancouver boston calgary los angeles what toronto los angeles are you out your mind good luck you you need pittsburgh the consensus winner the stanley cup they statistically beat detroit games haha that happening not said every one picks will come true and picked chicago lose pittsburgh the finals tough luck all you who picket detroit well tough luck all genius keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs cow not vegetarian dish keith keller
rec.sport.hockey	flames truly brutal loss this game would have been great part double header abc espn the league would have been able push back back wins magnifique and the great one unfortunately the only network that would have done that was sca seen few areas and hard justify pay channel gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	possible canadian team article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare writes nlu xenon stanford edu nelson writes centers mark messier rangers messier was not invited due his nagging injuries while the press made issue and attempted link the rangers internal political woes mike keenan repeated that messier personally during the msg press conference makes sense messier would probably have not declined the invitation were made for publicity actually messier was invited but declined due nagging injuries keenan and messier have always gotten along keenan dumped steve yzerman from the last canada cup team even though yzerman had endured the training camp when messier who had missed essentially the entire camp recovering from injuries became available the last moment gerald
rec.sport.hockey	daigle kariya article qsmhtinnt senator bedfellow mit edu ddlin athena mit edu david lin writes hear daigle will the first pick next year what the word kariya anybody ever seen him play also entering the draft people are seeming less concerned about kariya size leads teams championships world junior and college and collects awards everyone watching with interest how will perform left wing with eric lindros and mark recchi the world championships months chances were not very good that would the top five now has become probable great world championship could put him the top with daigle and pronger gerald
rec.sport.hockey	octopus detroit detroit the octopus symbol from the old days the league the era the original four teams made the playoffs win the cup team had win two seven game series other words took playoff wins win the cup the octopus legs has become common detroit symbol every year around playoff time people start sneaking octopus octopi into the joe louis arena and throwing them onto the ice old mail jold vma edu
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach corner summary april here summary don cherry coach corner from april took place the first intermission game the montreal quebec series pre game comments don pregame comments were mostly aimed the goalies the goalie who gets back his all star form roy hextall can win the series for his team eposode summary this episode took place rinkside don was holding hot dog that bought from the concession stand ron maclean started out showing cartoon which appeared the toronto sun featured picture don who just saw his shadow and proclaimed will you look dat means another weeks beauty next don talked about the hot dog was holding according him the hot dogs the quebec stadium are the best food all the arenas the nhl from there don commented the quebec montreal game the game had great flow because referee paul stewart calls the best game the nhl contrast the calgary game was terrible all stop and over minutes penalties called against calgary dan marouelli its getting that the ref who calls the most penalties gets ref the finals next ron showed old picture don when was playing for the rochester americans the ahl don recalled some the wins that had the quebec arena during the memorial cup and the ahl championships finally don and ron discussed keenan becoming coach the rangers the rangers were talented team who underachieved don feels sorry for temporary coach ron smith who had several key injuries leetch and patrick and goalies who went cold don had some criticism for the rangers team the party over adolf keenan there the rangers organization will longer country club should achamed themselves they the tank with adolf there they hanging from the yardarm their thumbs rating nothing too special this episode give out allan sullivan allan ualberta department computing science university alberta edmonton alberta canada opinions are mine and mine alone amazing how much can accomplished one cares who gets the credit golden bears hockey motto drake
rec.sport.hockey	flames truly brutal loss article vzhivov cunews vzhivov superior carleton vladimir zhivov writes the subject suggests the flames were not impressive this afternoon dropping decision the kings most the flames neglected show especially their own zone the kings hit least five posts the flames best line was probably mike vernon now wins losses plus that all star game debacle afternoon games during his career with another afternoon game with los angeles next sunday has the abc deal doomed the flames gerald
rec.sport.hockey	goodbye good riddance get lost stars goodbye minnesota you never earned the right have nhl franchise the first place hope you enjoy your twin city wide mania for high school hockey hey the way old pee wee team having reunion regina care come and film the event yee haa golden gophers whatta weird town what with you stupid dorks from the western business school first there was that cary asshole and now you don you have anything better instead being obnoxious antagonistic little shits over the network why don you just take hike and stop embarrasing yourself your school and canada kea
rec.sport.hockey	how beat pittsburgh how you beat the penguins crash the team plane ryan
rec.sport.hockey	abc canada article boora sfu boora kits sfu the godfather writes was the abc coverage the kings flames game supposed the way was shown with cbc overriding the abc coverage when flipped abc was the same commentators same commercials even question was this the real abc coverage did cbc just black out the abc coverage for its own here nanaimo vancouver island for you furriners out there got the abc coverage komo probably depends your cable company started off switching between the cbc and abc broadcasts but finally settled abc can stand don whitman and michaels was doing decent job followed the play pretty well knew all the players names and only made couple rookie mistakes that noticed one thing that surprised that they never once attempted explain the offside rule paranoid this really happening department there were fights the game but there were couple occasions where looked like fight was about start both times abc cut away show closeup coach mcnall something has abc decided adopt the spicer policy lorne epp epp mala
rec.sport.hockey	blackhawks win article apr vax cns muskingum edu jbrown vax cns muskingum edu writes the hawks win jermey roenick scored his goal and the hawks put the leafs their place the losers column the leafs can not even beat the hawks match that had little meaning will hate see them against the wings btw laugh that jerky hawks but gotta tell the hawks can beat the blues game that significant can wait see how the blues might against toronto btw you think that the hawks deserved win that game think you were not watching the same one everyone else was roar leaf fan alfred yong jeh yim mathematics actuarial science university waterloo canada mail ayim descartes waterloo edu
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes also think that they will have hard time with pittsburgh they face them the finals which what all the detroit sportswriters are predicting although think bryan murray probably the best have ever seen hockey how you figure that when bryan murray took over the wings they were pretty good team that was contending for the stanley cup but looked unlikely win now they are pretty good team that contending for the stanley cup but looks unlikely win truly great would have been able make the moves push the team the upper echelon the nhl and maybe win the stanley cup good like murray can maintain the team success but can push them the next level the history hockey there have been several better than murray way too many name murray isn even the best the league today fails comparison sinden sather savard caron fletcher and quinn estimation can imagine how bryan murray can the best anyone has ever seen hockey unless they have seen very few gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes was nice see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead showing another baseball game they decided the stanley cup playoffs classy move espn not indiana they showed tape delay chicago boston because wgn had the rainout the cubs wgn showed reruns hitchcock hockey least this part the state aeros ian neath there are four kinds people this world neath psych purdue edu cretins fools morons and lunatics eco
rec.sport.hockey	expanding europe dusseldorf pkortela apr hut pkortela snakemail hut writes deg has many german born forwards the team fact the majority players are german born deg had average spectator arena interesting one our german friends here robert told their forwards were all canadian germans perhaps somebody can sort this out for possible nhl european league site list switzerland berne zurich lugano and others this ain north america and but still doubt that any city having pop and below could support nhl team course switzerland probably should judged one large city because small distances between cities but still germany dusseldorf cologne berlin munich mannheim rosenheim dusseldorf yes although the arena anachronism open wall behind one the goals essentially outdoor arena cologne arena only seats about berlin about and new facility will built unless their olympic bid successful munich does have arena sweden stockholm gothenburg malmo gavle malmo big enough but they also need new arena the current one has seats think finland helsinki turku tampere talking about the nhl even helsinki would struggle make work turku despite excellent arena and tampere are nowhere near big enough for major league hockey italy milan rome and the south are out the question this could well africa hockey fans romans were given the chance host some games but showed interest whatsoever all teams the italian league come from milan and the smaller cities the north france paris chamonix ruoen paris had their own volans francais pro team couple years ago believe they even made the european club championship finals tournament one year but eventually folded due lower than hoped for attendances the remaining cities seem too small support minor sport like hockey norway oslo austria vienna villach chech prag slovakia bratislava russia moscow petersburg the easter cities lack the money and infrastructure support pro hockey great britain perhaps most european teams will have like the tampa bay lightning anyway playing small seat arena backed japanese money run enthusiasts phil esposito heavy marketing fans that have difficulty telling what icing means london has been mentioned sheffield and birmingham also have large arenas and new mega facility seats might built bristol couple years netherlands facilities speak their biggest arena eindhoven seats fans for hockey petteri kortelainen marcu
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat roger maynard shares his views with the masses bob gainey and life general apr sol uvic gballent hudson uvic greg ballentine writes the selke candidate forwards main purpose shift prevent goals from being scored not score them when lemieux gilmour play their number one purpose score defence secondary especially considering the line that plays against them probably defensive one that why they are not selke candidates gainey the best defensive forward ever stand that assessment was very good player who belongs the hall fame did you ever watch him play never made technical error watched him over his entire career have never seen player and that includes russell courtnall and davie keon screw many breakaways bob gainey and will never forget the time denis potvin caught gainey with his head down you have been sold bill goods bob gainey was bryan trottier not denis potvin was vicious boarding from behind trottier was given major but roger what the hell does this have with gainey skill hockey player probert smashes gilmour head into the boards next week will that diminish your assessment gilmour skills gainey was plugger and when the press runs out things say about the stars dynasties they start hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and would take fuhr and sanderson off the latter think gainey would honoured know that you included him this list also think you have relatively naive view about what wins hockey game pluggers are integral part any team the selke designed acknowledge their contribution think that most people understand that not the nobel prize settle down cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian congenially always james david david student business uwo david sms business uwo james david western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	rangers give nhl another blackeye news reports toronto say that the rangers are insisting that kovalev zubov and andersson play for binghampton the calder cup playoffs rather than return play for their home countries the world championships shame the rangers another black eye for the nhl europe gerald
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions here are predictions try not laugh hysterically somebody save this can laugh when win own pool don have prizes but all love bragging rights winner takes them also somebody has some sort scoring system let know was thinking for round victories for second for for but may get alot ties any ideas buffalo montreal pittsburgh washington chicago toronto winnipeg los angeles montreal pittsburgh chicago winnipeg montreal chicago montreal richard madison rrmadiso napier uwaterloo
rec.sport.hockey	ahl calder cup playoff preview daryl turner umturne ccu umanitoba wrote article apr news clarkson edu farenebt craft camp clarkson edu droopy writes atlantic division john maple leafs moncton hawks moncton hawks see islanders moncton very similar team cdi low scoring defensive good goaltending john leblanc and stu barnes are the only noticable guns the team but the defense top notch and mike neill the most underrated goalie the league bri have tried tell you since february michael neill might the most underrated goalie the ahl but isn the ahl the winnipeg jets injury list has been since his first nhl start against the ottawa senators out until next year after surgery repair shoulder separation stu barnes might ahl gun for the hawks but now the third line center with the jets and has been since mid january sorry memory gone thought that neill got sent back down february but must have been given incorrect info guess this says all about moncton because barnes still one their top scorers even though been out since january bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	individual winners was where are the doubters now hmm well since you mentioned article apr jarvis csri toronto edu migod turing toronto edu mike godfrey writes lemieux clearly the mvp question here chip the masterson well selanne wins the calder yep chelios the norris you asked days ago agree with you now give the nod raymond bourque his play took off the same time the did chelios gets close second dunno who wins the vezina but suspect not potvin barrasso finally gets his due close one over eddie the eagle coach the year tricky burns did the most with the least raw talent king did good job but the flames clearly underachieved last year brian sutter has done exceptionally well his first year with new team ditto demers page has been blessed the ripening and acquisition young talent darryl sutter having good year for rookie coach berry made the best bad situation terry crisp worked minor miracles and bowman was bowman pick burns but mildly biased your case that bias acceptable mine shows with the norris pick even impressed with what all the coaches you mentioned did but pick would arbour not too many folks thought the isles would the playoffs let alone contend for their division granted that they did have little help from their cousins broadway and like the islanders about much like mowing lawn mike godfrey david kehrer dwk sunsrvr cci com northern telecom nas rochester new york nothing for eat six seven pieces pizza then out dinner with wife and not remember had the pizza jacques demers
rec.sport.hockey	help coverage europe vielen dank desperate fan sweden finland finished gothenburg apr
rec.sport.hockey	espn tonight has anyone heard what game espn showing tonight they said they will show whatever game means the most playoff wise would assume this would the blues tampa game the minnesota red wings game anyone heard for sure jeff swartz
rec.sport.hockey	patrick division correction article rap psuvm psu edu robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes well was little off those predictions one didn count the devils scoring goals tonight tie hence there goes the streak secondly didn count the islanders getting just point out against the whalers two games more isles capitals new predicitons penguins islanders penguins capitals devils devils why should pay your predictions any heed considering you couldn even predict the proper matchups maybe you should try forecasting the weather instead frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat sms business uwo david sms business uwo james david writes was bryan trottier not denis potvin was vicious boarding from behind trottier was given major perhaps was trottier happened behind the habs goal recall gainey simply didn have his head was picking the puck but roger what the hell does this have with gainey skill hockey player probert smashes gilmour head into the boards next week will that diminish your assessment gilmour skills gilmour was taken completely surprise gainey was then yeah would have say that doug wasn playing technically smart hockey any case claim greg did that gainey never made technical mistake absolutely ludicrous gainey was plugger and when the press runs out things say about the stars dynasties they start hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and would take fuhr and sanderson off the latter good for you you only displaying your ignorance course but each his own think gainey would honoured know that you included him think gainey should feel honoured know that remembered all this list also think you have relatively naive view about what wins hockey game pluggers are integral part certainly pluggers are integral part any team and that simply because there are not enough solid two way players around who would you rather have your checking centre doug gilmour doug jarvis for that matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres you think gretzky could cover bob gainey any team the selke designed acknowledge their contribution think that most people understand that not the nobel prize settle down you wrong again the selke awarded the forward that does the best job defensively and this may may not the best plugger gilmour does the best defensive job the league don see why should out the running simply because also contributes offen sively settle down you think that have likened the selke the nobel prize then suggest that you had best settle down and you are going try put words mouth let suggest that you settle down before you bother following postings congenially always james david david student business uwo you might consider developing your own style after all imitation the sincerest form flattery and quite sure that flattery not your intention cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	european expansion and our cked system everyone keeps talking about european expansion thinking wishful thoughts but being totally off the ball the league format use here incompatible with that europe for those that don know the best teams from lower divisions get promoted and the worst get demoted would european fans put with our you paid you can play attitude how long would they support teams that are run ranger based corporate thinking use the term lightly don need good product because these duffuses nyc would fill the arena for ottawa record every year haha sorry had say hockey and other pro sports had similar system europe maybe teams like the rangers would forced compete get demoted the fourth division have many more teams centres that aren big like halifax adirondack halifax isn good example would eventually get promoted and every team would somewhat competetive within its own division unlike ottawa edmonton etc fans would eventually get rewarded for their loyalty penalized for their neglect and the league would more interesting and dynamic every year because the influx newly promoted teams and the halifax citadels win the stanley cup can dream can look british any european soccer example they never have fan problems just someone who thinks our system really sucks barfly feel free flame account ends today hahahaha
rec.sport.hockey	rangers top ten netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes carol alt head coach wish she can head coach any time sorry ali back real hockey hmmmmmm think let everyone make there own comment this one the bad alexei kovalev what did the rangers think when they signed him did they think was another domi just let him play and not line better that stays the minors and gets ice time all the time whose bad has been neilson and smith decision play him there that what you mean then that bad but kovalev himself very good player you right weren stranded the fourth line maybe produce sound familiar darren turcotte neilson and smith are bad kovalev magical lets pens the owl
rec.sport.hockey	who will broadcast the which german satellite channels will show the world championship action from dusseldorf munich someone please tell must able root for the red machine thank you russians for the world title nordiques for the cup
rec.sport.hockey	flyers this year biggest and worst opinion article apr cbnewsm att com jmd cbnewsm att com joseph dakes writes article apr cbnewsh att com seth cbnewsh att com peter clark writes roussel was giving almost another goal game while facing proportional number shots for the number minutes played and while have actually checked believe that faced lower quality opponent make that less than half goal game the lower quality opponet argument immaterial neither roussel nor soderstrom had any say the matter that was dineen decision other words roussel shuts out the sharks and soderstrom shuts out the penguins that immaterial because was the coaches decision come joe think about what you saying who they played very significant why they played them what irrelevent low gaa against good teams better than low gaa against bad teams the context comparing two goaltenders low gaa better then higher gaa low gaa against good teams much much better than higher gaa against bad teams the context comparing two goaltenders the fact the matter that despite last nights shutout doesn have what takes last night was due inept ranger team much more than roussel skill and they don get shot away none and one guy just passes and stops the other guy shoots into roussel pad mon pete the rangers were inept shutout shutout during both soderstrom masterpieces against toronto mike emerich was quoted saying didn think the leafs had much offensive firepower past their first line does that make soderstrom shutouts less impressive because toronto lack offense yes does absolutely the context comparing two goaltenders course the end the season points points matter how you get them and the score sheets shutouts are shutouts but you coach deciding between two goalies looking make trade you have got look deeper than the stat sheets didn see the second toronto game but the first one was defensive masterpiece there was nothing that game judge tommy soderstrom because wasn tested the same for roussel the ranger game two real scoring chances one made great play the other was saved mistake from the other player you were judging roussel that game alone you have very little but you were look the tie against the habs you saw goalie stand his head get that shutout that was goalie action roussel doesn have game like that him well you look back november when roussel was the goalie soderstrom was being treated for his heart ailment the flyers finished november and were overall and there way knowing where the flyers would have finished soderstom wasn wearing the oragne black glad don have find out anytime soon either because one hell player would take him over roussel right now but still think dom has what takes the guy outperformed hextall enough during the season make flyers management think that way too don sure that flyers management never says bad thing about roussel but they don say too much the good side either seen least two interviews where every time farwell was asked how happy was have two good goaltenders was tommy this tommy that and yeah dom has played well too the way what was the final card monday night team picture any chance flyers the nhl hall fame kinda dull really they handed out team picture everybody who walked from pizza hut but was the same picture they sold the programs mid season had names like benning kasper and how did the flyers choose the fans who received the shirts off our backs winning recchi jersey after breaking the club single season point record would have been nice but knowing your luck you would have won roussel mostly random seat locations some were given out having certain autographs the team photos don like that method since seen guards help out people get things like lindros pictures surely they got their hands autographed picture they hold for their buddies pete clark
rec.sport.hockey	goalie masks article hydra gatech edu gtd prism gatech edu hrivnak writes starting informal poll goalie masks like know who mask you think looks the best always like curtis joseph the blues the best anyway send your nominations post your vote here mail adress gtd prism gatech edu thanks for your time saw mask once that had drawings band aids presumably for every puck that goalie stopped with his face head can remember who was even was nhl see quite few ahl games here this far the funniest mask seen and for funny cool skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu barfly
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes certainly pluggers are integral part any team and that simply because there are not enough solid two way players around who would you rather have your checking centre doug gilmour doug jarvis for that matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres you think gretzky could cover bob gainey gretzky lemieux gilmour etc not play the role checking centreman they play offensive role opposed defensive one they were used defensive centres would waste their offensive abilities when you compare gretzky jarvis gainey etc you are comparing apples and oranges like telling you that felix potvin isn very good because team would better the had lemieux instead him sure lemieux better player but different type player for team successful they need have all types players this includes defensive forwards when compared with other defensive forwards bob gainey the greatest defensive forward ever the player who talents best suited being defensive forward who completely dominated the game when played maybe more talented player such gretzky had decided waste his offensive talents and play defensively could have been better defensive forward but wasn bob gainey the best defensive forward that has ever played hockey gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	get real caps have chance anyone who really believes that the caps can beat the pens are kidding themselves the pens may not loose one game the playoffs geoff filinuk flyers fan
rec.sport.hockey	individual winners was where are the doubters now hmm apr cci cci com dwk cci cci com dave kehrer writes well since you mentioned article apr jarvis csri toronto edu migod turing toronto edu mike godfrey writes chelios the norris you asked days ago agree with you now give the nod raymond bourque his play took off the same time the did chelios gets close second how about kevin hatcher scored roughly goals plays minutes game dunno who wins the vezina but suspect not potvin barrasso finally gets his due close one over eddie the eagle that really sad when two second rate goalies barasso and belfour are the main contenders for the vezina call crazy but how about tommy soderstrom five shutouts for place team that doesn really play defense really unfortunate that the better goalies the league mclean essensa vernon had unspectacular years btw you are going award the norris the basis the last days why not give the vezina moog has been the best goalie over the past month coach the year tricky burns did the most with the least raw talent king did good job but the flames clearly underachieved last year brian sutter has done exceptionally well his first year with new team ditto demers page has been blessed the ripening and acquisition young talent darryl sutter having good year for rookie coach berry made the best bad situation terry crisp worked minor miracles and bowman was bowman pick burns but mildly biased your case that bias acceptable mine shows with the norris pick even impressed with what all the coaches you mentioned did but pick would arbour not too many folks thought the isles would the playoffs let alone contend for their division granted that they did have little help from their cousins broadway and like the islanders about much like mowing lawn arbour king burns will probably win since playoffs aren taken into consideration the regular season but not sure beaten anyone other than hartford the playoffs vlad the impaler
rec.sport.hockey	david polie future article apr ncsu edu fmsalvat eos ncsu edu frank michae salvatore writes bad news for the patrick division next year caps david polie reportedly trying get front office job with the nhl can believe polie has not been fired despite years mediocrity you know what frank not david poile fault that the caps have mired mediocrity for long blame the owner abe polin this guy owns both the nba bullets and the nhl capitals how dumb and selfish could this guy unwilling spend the bucks order get big star landover wonder both teams stink heard that the capitals had chance get detroit steve yzerman last summer but they pulled out the last minute why because our good man abe afraid spend the cash nevertheless still faithful and hoping that one day this devilish dictator will replaced frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu tuan van does matter where you buy your underwear tom cruise rain man van archmage what orange black and ugly george mason university and dwells the basement electrical engineering philadelphia flyers tva gmuvax gmu edu tva mason gmu edu let cap tals
rec.sport.hockey	winning streaks article rap psuvm psu edu rap psuvm psu edu robbie writes the penguins game unbeaten streak carries over next season meaning they start the season with another game unbeaten streak they will have eclipsed the flyers record right now the penguins are game winning streak streaks carry over from one year another hmmmm not sure this true according mike lang and good old stagie along with the rest the crews pittsburgh they winning streak could have stopped because regular season mark would think this would also hold with unbeaten streak for regular season games however you are right that the playoff streak does carry over from last year and with more win believe they tie edmonton record but don quote that one robbie pgh penguins won easy but contact for the stanley cup will have greater rewards penn state lady lions champions mountains and valleys are rap psuvm psu edu straight wins better than nothing all
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article apr sol uvic gballent hudson uvic greg ballentine writes article tnclus tele nokia hahietanen tnclus tele nokia writes article apr sol uvic gballent vancouver uvic greg ballentine writes good stat because the only stat that aware that takes into account defensive play isn measure defensive play takes into account offense and defence all aspects play are interested real all round players the power play stats should considered too because the power play also one aspect play there still something done with these player evaluation tools imo any good player should score power plays because the man advantage very good power play scorers tend become overrated because their point totals are inflated power play points tends expose these overrated players such brett hull john cullen and dave andreychuck given the opportunity play power play consistently any player can inflate his totals gregmeister except for vancouver course bure has hard time scoring that power play got shorthanded goals and goals think
rec.sport.hockey	playoff pool rules entry form well the tentative rules anyway and course since the season not entirely over tentative entry form but who cares the real hockey season starting here the deal you email preferably post your predictions and the number games you think each series will each round will weighted that the stanley cup finals will very important but the early rounds will still important here the scoring pick round winner way off games points pick round winner within one game points pick round winner pick games points pick round winner way off games points pick round winner within one game points pick round winner pick games points pick conference champ way off games points pick conference champ within one game points pick conference champ pick games points pick stanley cup champ way off games points pick stanley cup champ within one game points pick stanley cup champ pick games points pick loser series goes points pick loser series decided game points these last two are sympathy points probably won happen anyway obviously picking the stanley cup champion important will some tests see the format fair but probably will too lazy modify the scoring will probably like this for entry forms well this post getting too long see next post keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.hockey	entry form for playoff pool okay here the entry sheet keep mind that not all spots are decided may change series your pick games division semis islanders pittsburgh new jersey washington buffalo boston montreal quebec louis chicago toronto detroit winnipeg vancouver los angeles calgary division finals patrick adams norris smythe conference finals wales campbell stanley cup winner see previous post for scoring good luck keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs when want your opinion give you
rec.sport.hockey	bridgman out the ottwawa senators fired mel bridgman today randy sexton gonna replace him stephane lacelle engineer insert sig here gandalf data ltd
rec.sport.hockey	playoff telecasts atlanta article jabd acsu buffalo edu hammerl acsu buffalo edu valerie hammerl writes personally prefer buffalo boston birthday gift from espn but don think the folks espn will accomodate that for espn has this inexplicable affinity for the patrick division seems first happy birthday val second espn affinity with patrick has probably more with the travel production costs for once week nhn national hockey night affair espn abc owner capital cities company known for being quite thrifty with minimal overhead costs quite possible that jim schoenfeld may working for doughnuts gary thorne and bill clement are both based and the rest espn crew resides the suburban with very close proximity tri state area plus makes sense terms solid hockey following the northeast corridor maryland whereas the adams you have only american based teams out which buffalo and hartford are not top markets ppv mark
rec.sport.hockey	ahl season review off ice stuff here review some the off ice things that have affected the ahl this year john maple leafs problems the john maple leafs sophomore season has been plagued problems ice the leafs won the atlantic division title but off ice was less happy strike public workers has forced the leafs out the newfoundland city for much the last half the seaosn since mid jan they have played home games places like montreal cornwall and charlottetown their playoff home games will played the metro center halifax one demostration got violent workers attacked leafs bus and rocked and broke windows the john memorial stadium despite the problems toronto officials insist that the leafs will return john once the strike ends senators sold the new haven senators have been sold peter shipman the ottawa senators nhl organization they are the only canadian nhl team with american ahl affiliate and have made clear they intend move the team somewhere the canadian atlantic provinces this sale and move has yet approved the ahl head office but expected pass easily the general meeting may the quote the story from jack butterfield made clear the league was more interested the stability the ahl franchise accompanied nhl ownership rather than maintaining the year history the ahl new haven the senators are currently serious negotiations with charlottetown new brunswick and are expected move there dallas helps hawks stay moncton after announcing that they would pull their affiliation out moncton the winnipeg jets changed their mind the jets announced the move when they said that they would slashing their minor league roster from something around dozen and they wanted share with existing ahl ihl franchise enter the dallas lone stars dallas agreed supply the remaining players the moncton franchise thus keeping the hawks the new brunswick city the deal for one year and will extended three years the season ticket base increases over the hawks only sold for this year saint john flames official the calgary flames have officially signed deal with the city saint john the saint john blue flames will play the exhibition center the flames still have apply for expansion frnachise from the ahl but are expected have trouble caps follow jacks maine despite rumors the contrary the capitals will follow the baltimore skipjacks maine the caps current farm team the baltimore skipjacks announced that they would move maine and become the portland pirates there was much doubt the caps would follow but they announced limited deal with portland they would supply dozen players including goalies they become the third team announce limited farm team along with moncton and the capital district islanders ahl game the week early january the ahl started game the week the game produced believe pyman productions was televised across the canadian maritimes and northeastern the first few weeks saw two games the week one canada and another the but since then there has been only one sunday afternoon and night games were covered and shown sportschannel and the and believe atlantic sports network canada but not sure about that not sure playoff games will covered utica gone syracuse added there were heavy rumors that the utica devils will not around next season there were rumors that they might headed midwestern city and that the city syracuse trying lure them what the ahl might look like next year one option another option northern division southern division adirondack red wings adirondack springfield indians springfield providence bruins providence islanders cdi portland pirates hershey binghamton southern division rochester hershey bears hamilton binghamton rangers utica rochester americans hamilton canucks atlantic division utica devils portland john atlantic division saint john john maple leafs moncton moncton hawks halifax halifax citadels fredericton cape breton oilers cape breton fredericton canadiens charlottetown saint john blue flames charlottetown senators move unofficial yet bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champ glens falls high school division state champs join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats clarkson golden knights hockey ecac champions
rec.sport.hockey	ahl news dallas helps hawks stay moncton after announcing that they would pull their affiliation out moncton the winnipeg jets changed their mind the jets announced the move when they said that they would slashing their minor league roster from something around dozen and they wanted share with existing ahl ihl franchise enter the dallas lone stars dallas agreed supply the remaining players the moncton franchise thus keeping the hawks the new brunswick city the deal for one year and will extended three years the season ticket base increases over the hawks only sold for this year saint john flames official the calgary flames have officially signed deal with the city saint john the saint john blue flames will play the exhibition center the flames still have apply for expansion frnachise from the ahl but are expected have trouble caps follow jacks maine despite rumors the contrary the capitals will follow the baltimore skipjacks maine the caps current farm team the baltimore skipjacks announced that they would move maine and become the portland pirates there was much doubt the caps would follow but they announced limited deal with portland they would supply dozen players including goalies they become the third team announce limited farm team along with moncton and the capital district islanders bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat post newsgroups rec sport hockey from maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard subject plus minus stat organization dept computer science laurentian university sudbury date thu apr gmt sms business uwo david sms business uwo james david writes was bryan trottier not denis potvin was vicious boarding from behind trottier was given major perhaps was trottier happened behind the habs goal recall gainey simply didn have his head was picking the puck but roger what the hell does this have with gainey skill hockey player probert smashes gilmour head into the boards next week will that diminish your assessment gilmour skills gilmour was taken completely surprise gainey was then yeah would have say that doug wasn playing technically smart hockey any case claim greg did that gainey never made technical mistake absolutely ludicrous later your posting you make reference putting words into other people mouths would suggest that your last paragraph can only interpreted one way namely that along with greg claim that gainey never made technical mistake you actually read what written you will find that make such claim soooo logic serves well you contradicting yourself gainey was plugger and when the press runs out things say about the stars dynasties they start hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and would take fuhr and sanderson off the latter good for you you only displaying your ignorance course but each his own roger not sure here but think ignorance really function lack knowledge and not formulating opinion but hey you need take cheap shot then all means ahead that makes you feel better think gainey would honoured know that you included him think gainey should feel honoured know that remembered all word such vehemence against poor bob gainey why does bother you much was effective player for his style play this list also think you have relatively naive view about what wins hockey game pluggers are integral part certainly pluggers are integral part any team and that simply because there are not enough solid two way players around who would you rather have your checking centre doug gilmour doug jarvis for that matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres you think gretzky could cover bob gainey really sorry roger but you have lost completely here why don you ask would rather have jesus christ himself nets now you were compare say for example bob gainey with guy carbonneau you would have balanced comparison any team the selke designed acknowledge their contribution think that most people understand that not the nobel prize settle down you wrong again the selke awarded the forward that does the best job defensively and this may may not the best plugger gilmour does the best defensive job the league don see why should out the running simply because also contributes offen sively wrong again hmmm let see where was wrong the first place only guessing here rog but have feeling that you setup you wrong again macro key your machine agree that use the word plugger simplistic but think you know what getting would also like point out that gilmour potential selke winner was never part the debate are you asking for opinion think there are far too many other deserving players include gilmour among the candidates settle down you think that have likened the selke the nobel prize then suggest that you had best settle down and you are going try put words mouth let suggest that you settle down before you bother following postings would suggest that your comment and when the press runs out things say about the stars dynasties they start hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and demonstrates blanket disregard for these individuals contributors the game yes settle down nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods congenially always james david david student business uwo you might consider developing your own style after all imitation the sincerest form flattery and quite sure that flattery not your intention mon has nice ring and admit you had good laugh congenially always james david david student business uwo david sms business uwo james david western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	only test message only test message
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team items live the desolate midwest far hockey concerned and our sports stores around here carry very little hockey stuff except for san jose tampa bay pittsburgh and you lucky chicago would like know anyone knows any ail order phone order stores that might able get contact with dying for some real hockey stuff hats shirts key chains etc for some other teams edmonton montreal etc you have any information please mail directly most appreciated good luck your teams the stanley cup playoffs edmonton likely not maybe next year you assult someone you get years hockey minutes this great sport what kevin frank kfrank magnus acs ohio state edu
rec.sport.hockey	yet more crazy predictions well here goes crazy predictions which never come true but hey adams bos buf bos cakewalk for the hot bruins que mon que best series the first round patrick pit nyi pit nyi wins fourth game was njd njd grueling upset possibly game norris chi stl chi stl match for keenan krew det tor tor clark steps playoffs this year smythe who cares van win win caught teemu mania sue cal lak cal sucks imo division finals bos que bos killer games watch for cam shine pit njd pit njd insane kill all ice but pit wins chi tor tor tor defense finally get together cal win cal win too tired after series conference finals pit bos bos pit too beat njd play hope cal tor tor vernon turns into sieve stanley cup bos tor tor two totally different teams who knows dreams can come true pig might one day evolve wings feel free laugh predictions always barfly
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat vfq sms business uwo david sms business uwo james david writes gilmour was taken completely surprise gainey was then yeah would have say that doug wasn playing technically smart hockey any case claim greg did that gainey never made technical mistake absolutely ludicrous later your posting you make reference putting words into other people mouths would suggest that your last paragraph can only interpreted one way namely that along with greg claim that gainey never made technical mistake you actually read what written you will find that make such claim soooo logic serves well you contradicting yourself nonsense quite clearly state that was greg that made the claim that gainey never made error and made the claim read below from rec sport hockey thu apr from gballent hudson uvic greg ballentine message apr sol uvic nonsense deleted gainey the best defensive forward ever stand that assessment was very good player who belongs the hall fame did you ever watch him play never made technical error more nonsense deleted good for you you only displaying your ignorance course but each his own roger not sure here but think ignorance really function lack knowledge and not formulating opinion but hey you need take cheap shot then all means ahead that makes you feel better knowledgeable observers the game meaning obvious your hockey education not responsibility word such vehemence against poor bob gainey why does bother you much was effective player for his style play was just another player laud him anything more find bothersome hated the habs hated lafleur until realized that was likely the most aesthetically pleasing player ever skate lifetime why would anyone talk about gainey around who would you rather have your checking centre doug gilmour doug jarvis for that matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres you think gretzky could cover bob gainey really sorry roger but you have lost completely here why don you ask would rather have jesus christ himself nets did play hockey high level was any good not why would you bother bring talking about hockey players here you can follow the conversation don follow said previously not responsibility educate you now you were compare say for example bob gainey with guy carbonneau you would have balanced comparison sure two journeymen big deal neither one them worth discussing wrong again hmmm let see where was wrong the would take fuhr and sanderson off the latter first place only guessing here rog but have feeling that you setup you wrong again macro key your machine that excellent idea and decide waste any more time responding any your greg postings then will sure implement that very macro would suggest that your comment and when the press runs out things say about the stars dynasties they start hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and demonstrates blanket disregard for these individuals contributors the game yes settle down nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods tarasov claimed that gainey was hockey god and greg ate and that what this thread all about you didn know that then why are you responding and for blanket disregard for these individuals can remember leaf teams purely populated such individuals winning four stanley cups teams one ran around telling that george armstrong was the best hockey player the world congenially always james david david student business uwo you might consider developing your own style after all imitation the sincerest form flattery and quite sure that flattery not your intention mon has nice ring and admit you had good laugh right had get the end your posting before realized you were complete joke the future you are going respond postings would appreciate you could present cogent argument supported facts gleaned from version reality that most the rest would recognize cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian
rec.sport.hockey	how beat pittsburgh article afnkovk uhb rdtj andrew cmu edu robert angelo pleshar andrew cmu edu writes kfnjyea vmus andrew cmu edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply kfnjyea vmus andrew cmu edu from anna matyas now could just clone chelios personality and transplant into all the defensemen the islanders capitals and devils gerald other words you want turn them all into assholes they will spend lots time the penalty box and get lots misconducts and this comes from chelios fan yeah and also second the team scoring and play about minutes game and play the power play and kill penalties and the best defenseman the league take whole team chelioses could that way when one got penalty the others could kill ralph how beat pittsburgh mario lemieux death too much kimo slash skull ask the rangers slashing his wrist jaromir jagr deportation send him back whatever commie country from tell him that bill clinton going too iii kevin stevens fighting call bob probert call tie domi call grandmother she kick his ass
rec.sport.hockey	ahl news john news part xxxviii brifre dal writes article apr news clarkson edu farenebt craft camp clarkson edu droopy writes pete raymond emailed this piece info not sure game was intentionally unintentionally omitted date not set bri begin quoted material because the moncton win friday night halifax was eliminated thus john will make halifax home the first round play offs wil take place these dates april halifax metro center leafs home game april halifax metro center april moncton april moncton april halifax metro center april moncton this halifax least this halifax resident dream come true the leafs are favorite nhl team and don know why say that this even better than the citadels making the playoffs quebec farm team who cares the way for any nfld fans sure asn will carry some the games they stupid not but then this asn haven heard any news about asn carrying any games but the local cable station here john cable carrying the games live hey better than nothing leafs dale why sex popular dale fraser dale odie mun easy see memorial university newfoundland contains sodium undergrad class and cholesterol free shelby friedman blue jays world series champs opinions expressed above not belong this institution
rec.sport.hockey	hockey and the hispanic community icop csa edu antonio pera writes the presence the new team miami can say south florida too long makes think interesting question can you sell the hispanic community hockey miami hispanic this community has experience and previous exposure hockey that know the teams and which also have big hispanic groups not seem try woo this group what will miami could they get spanish language and radio coverage think the owners that hockey will well miami since there lot people from the northeast that spend their winters florida every year for the coverage someone will have come with some money for that since broadcast rights can expensive just dale why sex popular dale fraser dale odie mun easy see memorial university newfoundland contains sodium undergrad class and cholesterol free shelby friedman blue jays world series champs opinions expressed above not belong this institution
rec.sport.hockey	espn tonight qkj kinn master rose hulman edu swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes has anyone heard what game espn showing tonight they said they will show whatever game means the most playoff wise would assume this would the blues tampa game the minnesota red wings game anyone heard for sure jeff swartz heard will the minnesota detroit game don know the time though dave david monack mail monack gas uug arizona edu love the delusion that one woman differs from another mencken
rec.sport.hockey	bruins the playoffs well bruins fans playoff time again looks like the have peaked the right time getting out the adams going cat fight the end after what they did montreal and quebec these teams will out for revenge neely can stay healthy and both bourque and moog stay sharp should get see neely finally take out two years frustration ulf don fight samuelson don agree with fighting the nhl but there one guy who deserves taken out good him this going good series bruins rchard richard amc com
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat post newsgroups rec sport hockey from maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard subject plus minus stat organization dept computer science laurentian university sudbury date fri apr gmt discussion deleted good for you you only displaying your ignorance course but each his own roger not sure here but think ignorance really function lack knowledge and not formulating opinion but hey you need take cheap shot then all means ahead that makes you feel better knowledgeable observers the game meaning obvious your hockey education not responsibility hockey education what the are you talking about not even going try refute this absolutely insane statement word such vehemence against poor bob gainey why does bother you much was effective player for his style play was just another player laud him anything more find bothersome hated the habs hated lafleur until realized that was likely the most aesthetically pleasing player ever skate lifetime why would anyone talk about gainey hate the habs you sound like year old this statement just further exemplifies your total inability argue objectively about hockey don give this crap about cogent arguments yet read something yours that cogent you consistently argue with emotion huge sweeping statements frankly you have very unconvincing style not defending bob gainey frankly don care for him all that much but your dismissal him something less than effective hockey player tiresome has basis anything how many calders did win think was four ahead and refresh memory what about the conn smythe was that fluke yeah not the makings hockey superstar know but try have reason any reason shoot him down around who would you rather have your checking centre doug gilmour doug jarvis for that matter would take either gretzky mario checking centres you think gretzky could cover bob gainey really sorry roger but you have lost completely here why don you ask would rather have jesus christ himself nets did play hockey high level was any good not why would you bother bring talking about hockey players here you can follow the conversation don follow said previously not responsibility educate you hey cowboy you the expert who introduced the idiotic comparison gainey with gretzky and lemieux you figure out now you were compare say for example bob gainey with guy carbonneau you would have balanced comparison sure two journeymen big deal neither one them worth discussing how many individual awards between them eight don remember once again please feel free refresh memory and try sarcastic possible about hockey education wrong again hmmm let see where was wrong the would take fuhr and sanderson off the latter god did say that roger what your point fuhr goaltender goaltender don plug his prime was one the best sanderson was scrapper you stick him you may well include half the flyers team the same era first place only guessing here rog but have feeling that you setup you wrong again macro key your machine that excellent idea and decide waste any more time responding any your greg postings then will sure implement that very macro roger you shouldn really don deserve this you are far too accomodating already would suggest that your comment and when the press runs out things say about the stars dynasties they start hype the pluggers grant fuhr essa tikkannen butch goring bob nystrom bob gainey doug jarvis derek sanderson wayne cashman bob baun bob pulford ralph backstrom henri richard dick duff and demonstrates blanket disregard for these individuals contributors the game yes settle down nobody has claimed that they are hockey gods tarasov claimed that gainey was hockey god and greg ate and that what this thread all about you didn know that then why are you responding you seem have allowed all these other players fall into your sweeping vacuous statement that why you want debate gainey ahead but why bring everybody else how does support your argument you have argument you just like throw around few names hoping impress and for blanket disregard for these individuals can remember leaf teams purely populated such individuals winning four stanley cups teams one ran around telling that george armstrong was the best hockey player the world great couldn agree more the flyers won two cups for the same reasons deservedly what don get are you angry that the leafs didn get more recognition you seem think these pluggers are hyped don agree plain and simple you last statement some sort compromise fair enough you might consider developing your own style after all imitation the sincerest form flattery and quite sure that flattery not your intention mon has nice ring and admit you had good laugh right had get the end your posting before realized you were complete joke not pleasant bone your body rog why are you unhappy not getting invited enough parties what the future you are going respond postings would appreciate you could present cogent argument supported facts gleaned from version reality that most the rest would recognize roger why are you under the impression that responding your posts some great honour you really should stop sounds little bit pathetic frankly about honourable good fart congenially always james david david student business uwo david sms business uwo james david western business school london ontario
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions patrick pens over isles devils over caps pens over devils adams over sabres nords over habs over nords norris hawks over stars blues wings over leafs hawks over wings smythe jets over canucks call hunch flames over kings jets over flames wales pens over campbell hawks over jets stanley pens over hawks bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	schedule for next week united states schedule april devils islanders pittsburgh est abc eastern time zone april louis chicago cdt abc cent mou time zones april los angeles calgary pdt abc pacific time zone april devils islanders pittsburgh espn april tba espn april tba espn somebody would send the cbc tsn schedule post that well mike burger canada includes quebec ontario mmb lamar colostate edu the maritimes the prairies and florida beginning computing stud four months year over students served royal canadian air farce university michigan colorado state university
rec.sport.hockey	hockey and the hispanic community article odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes when was the last time you saw hockey league the inner city well actually now that you mention few weeks ago the cbc ran documentary ice hockey harlem the canadian club new york something like that sponsors league for kids harlem and based the report they all seemed having lot fun all playing with regular equipment jerseys etc etc proper outdoor rink looked just like kids playing hockey anywhere else some the kids were even fortunate get trip hockey camp alberta
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article apr sol uvic gballent vancouver uvic writes what comes down that jagr despite being arrogant asshole very good hockey player who has had better season this year than ron francis jagr has more points and better jagr has higher but francis has had more points and take from informed observer ronnie francis has had much better season than jaromir jagr this not take anything away from jaro who had decent year although didn live the expectations some gregmeister dean dean falcione badges what badges using jrmst permission don need stinkin the owner joe mcdonald badges
rec.sport.hockey	playoff predictions round pitt nyi pitt wash njd wash bos buf bos que mon mon have take quebec chi stl chi hawks will win but will take det tor det van win win cal cal cal round pitt wash pitt bos mon bos boston will beat quebec chi det chi win cal cal round pitt bos pitt pitt the bruins arent pushover chi cal chi the hawks havent had problems with them all year yep agree finals pitt chi pitt unless the hawks can somehow change fate you right who knows though maybe some intensive forechecking aka normal hawks style will nullify seemingly unbeatable team maybe the pens are due for let down hell how could they possibly extend their record making play all the way through the playoffs walter damien endemyr the unpure knight doom acquired taste for blood and have adopted nocturnal lifestyle that doesnt mean vampire
rec.sport.hockey	get real caps have chance article apr staff dccs upenn edu filinuk staff dccs upenn edu geoff filinuk writes anyone who really believes that the caps can beat the pens are kidding themselves the pens may not loose one game the playoffs let honest the pens may not loose one game you put but they will definitely lose one game remember the regular season doesn mean much when comes playoff time the caps have shot least the flyers sure don frank salvatore fmsalvat eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	individual winners was where are the doubters now hmm article apr cci cci com dwk cci cci com dave kehrer wrote well since you mentioned article apr jarvis csri toronto edu migod turing toronto edu mike godfrey writes lemieux clearly the mvp question here chip the masterson well lemieux for the masterson doubt had awe inspiring season but what personal records did set this year lemieux should have hart locked but how about mike gartner for the masterson
rec.sport.hockey	goalie masks article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes vote goes john vanbiesbrouck his mask has skyline new york city and the sides there are bunch bees beezer looks really sharp doesn also have the statue liberty that richter mask the back actually has bee followed represent the beezer also has something that looks like the three interconnecting circles from the led zepplin album cover that what supposed and does anybody know why would put there ali keith keller let rangers when want your opinion give you john the official language golf profanity hockey hell jwodzia eng clemson edu john wodziak the real black and gold memorium alan kulwicki bean will triumph over those who polish yankee mechanical engineer town are pretenders the crown winston cup champion great person rocks
rec.sport.hockey	pens info needed article apr ericsson etxonss ufsa ericsson staffan axelsson writes actually swedish coach curt lundmark thinking about leaving two spots open for additions from eliminated nhlers mats sundin and calle johansson that curt hopes can join the team although late stage the tournament technically seem recall that you can leave spots open until hrs before the final hmmm also heard through the grapevine that team finland might try and leave spot open for least one nhler some guy named sel nne ever hear him they might have content with kurri though hope daryl turner contact for the winnipeg jets internet umturne ccu umanitoba fidonet please route through tkachuk over zhamnov sel nne shoots scores the jets win the cup the jets win the cup essensa for vezina housley for norris sel nne for calder
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes from maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard subject plus minus stat date wed apr gmt dreier apr jacobi berkeley edu dreier jacobi berkeley edu roland dreier writes selanne leads the jets teppo numminen who you think better defensively ron francis the penguins although has points while jaromir jagr has only points but jagr really better defense than francis and how exactly should interpret the fact that mario lemieux has far the highest the league does get the selke well the ross the plus minus does not measure defense alone attempts measure player total contribution the team effort and certainly far from perfect and posting never implied otherwise all that posting suggested was that the was better indicator player effectiveness when examined the context that player team performance than mere scoring totals alone and for mario getting the selke why not after doug gilmour would rather have lemieux the ice any situation other than enforcer obvi ously than any player the game used call the selke the bob gainey award came about result the statement made anatoli tarasov bob gainey the best hockey player the world sure that tarasov was either misquoted originally had tiny bit too much vodka and was toying with reporter any event the nhl decided honour one dimensional checkers along with one dimen sional scorers maybe the league should start awarding the doug gil mour award anually the league most effective all round player cordially always roger maynard maynard ramsey laurentian hey what about the roger maynard award for the most annoying fan derrick jewlal laurel apt waterloo
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part goaltenders the sharks season came close tonight will start series posts trying revisit the players the trades the moves etc that went through for the sharks for the past season you are uninterested since will have the words sharks review the subject heading these postings you can kill them will first try evaluate how the players did these ratings course are subject own biases but hope that can try objective possible will evalute players who finished the season with the sharks and did not play for another nhl team this season thus then let the goaltenders brian hayward season acquired from minnesota dispersal draft grade sad that his career has come this dim end career that featured sharing three jennings trophies with patrick roy and would indeed unfair for anything but give him passing grade and skip the letter grading but had simply been awful ice this year save for bright spot two and even had been healthy would not any more than the string goalie but hayward was classy individual who also figured the sharks first ever victory the game the season last year against the calgary flames retires the fans will remember what good guy was jeff hackett season acquired from islanders expansion draft grade hackett after deservedly winning the team mvp honors last season simply wasted the year other than few good spots saves against los angeles almost shutout against tampa bay etc hackett finishing with save percentage and gaa watched his status from the team goalie bench decoration the end the season was expected early carry the team along instead apparently became frustrated but the early injury that forced him miss games may have been contributing factor but upon return simply wasn the task may not return next year wade flaherty season still eligible rookie acquired signed undrafted free agent grade pretty hard evaluate goaltender just one game alone thus the incomplete grade but yet the one start that did get against the calgary flames flaherty was nothing but sharp for least two periods started the season poorly kansas city but finished strong prompting the blades owner ron parker comment that should candidate for the ihl mvp honors the upcoming ihl playoffs would major challenge for him tries make into the nhl last year was capable backup for arturs irbe the throughout the season and the turner cup playoffs picking all star honors along with irbe now time for him show that can share the job with irbe next year because with prospects dan ryder trevor robins and scott cashman coming along doesn make next year may not ever arturs irbe season acquired from minnesota dispersal draft grade may yet overly critical irbe year that clearly established that bona fide nhl goaltender perhaps bona fide goaltender has provided most the little highlight footage that the sharks team had getting the team first ever shut out against the los angeles kings december has been fearless and out the net aggressively playing the puck and making passes reminding people young ron hextall except course the goonism yet still needs develop more consistency which hard with such bad defense front him but the sharks are challenge for playoff spot next season irbe the key demonstrated being named star the game times starts calgary flames macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe edmonton oilers for playoffs next year stay edmonton nelson claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	british championship playoffs apr group group cardiff devils bracknell bees nottingham panthers billingham humberside whitley warriors murrayfield racers fife flyers whitley bay cardiff devils billingham bombers murrayfield humberside bracknell bees nottingham panthers fife flyers cardiff devils humberside murrayfield racers nottingham bracknell bees whitley bay fife flyers billingham bracknell bees cardiff devils billingham bombers nottingham whitley bay humberside fife flyers murrayfield cardiff devils murrayfield racers humberside nottingham panthers whitley bay billingham bombers bracknell bees fife flyers indicates qualified for championship finals relegation promotion relegation promotion basingstoke swindon wildcats sheffield steelers peterborough durham wasps romford raiders slough jets kings basingstoke durham wasps sheffield steelers milton keynes swindon romford raiders milton keynes kings peterborough durham wasps swindon wildcats slough jets sheffield romford basingstoke peterborough slough jets romford durham wasps peterborough sheffield swindon basingstoke milton keynes kings slough jets basingstoke sheffield steelers durham wasps peterborough swindon milton keynes kings romford raiders slough jets neil mcglynn nmcglynn axion british telecom laboratories martlesham heath ipswich
rec.sport.hockey	stop predicting really annoying see all these predictions the net who really cares who you think will win please stop with the predictions all know the caps are going win the cup let that david kaupang cdkaupan eos ncsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	pens info needed article ccu umanitoba umturne ccu umanitoba daryl turner writes hmmm also heard through the grapevine that team finland might try and leave spot open for least one nhler some guy named sel nne ever hear him they might have content with kurri though hope true coach matikainen ready keep spot for teemu all the way until the medal games wants teppo numminen too and kurri but for them the spots cannot left open for too long esa tikkanen have already even without these players think have pretty good team young hungry talented guys old players that have got everything except the gold yesterday practise game swe fin shows that the two world best hockey teams are prime shape the finn line riihijarvi slightly injured saarikoski viitakoski shined bet these two teams are the best the nhl too roger roger what you people think about team canada with lindros brind amour burke ranford recchi dineen can they beat the finns coaching news alpo suhonen jets jokerit now verified boris majorov jokerit tappara vasili tichonov assat san jose sharks assistant coach sakari pietila lulea silver team elite serien mikko makela tps malmo markus ketterer jokerit still has contract timo saarikoski jokerit watch out for him next week
rec.sport.hockey	expanding europe dusseldorf article apr abo mlindroos finabo abo marcus lindroos inf writes pkortela apr hut pkortela snakemail hut writes deg has many german born forwards the team fact the majority players are german born deg had average spectator arena interesting one our german friends here robert told their forwards were all canadian germans perhaps somebody can sort this out for far know dusseldorf has only one canadian german forward player who was born canada but now has german passport benoit doucet became german marriing german and going play for germany the the other canada born forwards are peter john lee has british passport chris valentine dale dercatch steve gootas earl spry the moment there are only three german born forwards coming into mind bernd trunschka andreas brockmann ernst koepf volker
rec.sport.hockey	suhonen will not jokerit tvartiai vipunen hut tvartiai vipunen hut tommi vartiainen writes according the inside information alpo suhonen won the next headcoach jokerit pretty sure that boris majorov will continue although owner the team previously said that will chance the coach tommi wrong information they just announced that suhonen has made deal with jokerit tommi and boris majorov has made year deal with tappara svante
rec.sport.hockey	hockey playoff pool last chance this will last post promotion the hockey pool will update the pool try every wednesday subject please join hockey playoff pool deadline for pool midnight saturday rules read cost none prizes none send replies montana pinetree org note your entries send midnight saturday will accepted please include your name rules the acme hockey playoff pool critierias pick forwards long they are forwards okay pick defensemen arrange them lines forwards and two defense line and arranged them line order which your players would play the first line and which plays the second line pick designated playmaker can any positions try defensemen pick designated scorer can any positions pick goal tender pick team the one you think may win the cup note players can only chosen once cannot have sakic forward and again designated passer calculation points except for designated scorer and playmaker assist ixi goal for players line their totals will line pts line pts line pts win for goalies the team that wins the cup pts for the designated playmaker designated calculation will follows scorer goal pts every goal scored points assists pts every assists points the event tie the tie will broken unmodified goal totals and then game winning goals sample designated scorer jeremy roenick actual pts modified designated playmaker steve smith actual pts modified line murphy courtnall messier dave manson iafrate total points points for that line internet montana pinetree org david wong uucp pinetree montana gordon pinetree ottawa canada bis bis
rec.sport.hockey	plus minus stat apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes good for you you only displaying your ignorance course but each his own roger not sure here but think ignorance really function lack knowledge and not formulating opinion but hey you need take cheap shot then all means ahead that makes you feel better knowledgeable observers the game meaning obvious your hockey education not responsibility just curious roger but since you have such vast knowledge the game and the league how come you haven made living out there must lot demand for expertise the field sure you great help say the leafs assistant coach scout maybe try career reporter commentator might wrong course and you already have jukka virtanen juvirtan helsinki university helsinki
rec.sport.hockey	sweden finland april played scandinavium gothenburg april sweden finland swe peter popovic markus naslund fin ville siren keijo sailynoja fin juha riihijarvi timo saarikoski vesa viitakoski fin jari korpisalo kari harila rauli raitanen swe jan larsson mikael renberg stefan nilsson swe hakan ahlund thomas rundqvist swe roger akerstrom roger hansson swe stefan nilsson patrik juhlin charles berglund fin keijo sailynoja fin keijo sailynoja swe mikael renberg hakan ahlund thomas rundqvist fin jari korpisalo shots goal penalties attendance referee sweden min peter andersson finland min min sweden sweden opened the scoring markus naslund made drop pass the finnish blue line popovic picked and advanced towards the finnish goal and shot nice hard wrist shot ketterer top corner ville siren slap shot from the blue line power play made and juha riihijarvi scored nice goal another power play when close front goal put the puck high over aslin after the first period the finns started the second period with really good pressure korpisalo made with another goal from close range high over aslin then during the finnish pressure sweden turned the game around mikael renberg worked hard behind the finnish goal and passed the puck jan larsson front who backhanded the puck low rundqvist entered the finnish zone and passed ahlund and the finnish defense let ahlund skate and take shot that ketterer dropped into the goal next roger hansson behind the goal sent the puck back the blue line where roger akerstrom took slap shot and ketterer didn see the puck since there was traffic front third period started with nice goal stefan the shadow nilsson stefan and patrik juhlin entered the finnish zone patrik passed the puck back stefan who alone with ketterer made mistake then keijo sailynoja show started reduce and equalized the lead only seconds first scored the goal and after that came alone with aslin but was tripped aslin get penalty shot sailynoja made nice penalty shot showed forehand and put with low backhand shot the swedes seemed head for win when mikael renberg scored the goal late the game nice power play combination renberg waited the slot showed that wanted the puck the backhand side ahlund passed the puck and renberg took turnaround shot low ketterer goal far side but jari korpisalo had other plans only seconds later scored the game final goal make korpisalo took slap shot from narrow angle that maybe aslin should have saved all all decent game where the defense wasn the best both teams juggled around the lines bit the second and third period try combinations renberg and rundqvist plays well together the swedish team larsson nilsson juhlin best line overall again seems working line stillman good defense some players aren good enough for the though hakan ahlund faell ner hjaelmen och jobba roger hansson challe berglund kenny jonsson will likely have leave for nhl pros two goal scorers jari korpisalo and keijo sailynoja played well the finnish team markus ketterer didn have very good game seen him lot better lindfors probably finland starting goalie the heard that esa tikkanen will join the finnish team would inter resting know which other pros coach matikainen counts for the starting lines sweden finland peter aslin markus ketterer kenneth kennholt mikko haapakoski fredrik stillman ville siren hakan ahlund jarkko varvio thomas rundqvist mika nieminen mikael renberg keijo sailynoja roger akerstrom erik hamalainen arto blomsten kari harila jan larsson rauli raitanen stefan nilsson petri varis patrik juhlin jari korpisalo peter popovic timo jutila stefan larsson harri laurila roger hansson juha riihijarvi fredrik nilsson timo saarikoski peter ottosson vesa viitakoski pasi sormunen janne laukkanen markus naslund juha ylonen peter forsberg timo peltomaa jonas bergqvist marko palo played parts the game charles berglund mika alatalo kenny jonsson saku koivu marko palo staffan axelsson etxonss ufsa ericsson contact for swedish hockey
rec.sport.hockey	finland sweden nhl teams was helsinki stockholm nhl expansion tervio katk helsinki tervio katk helsinki writes now what the two teams were merged this has been proposed tampere with ilves lynx and tappara axe the fans wouldn take they rather see their teams out the playoffs most the time even relegated than merged not that difficult understand just like here helsinki you grow being either jokerit hifk fan the other team the last team the world you would support not talking about hate but about extremely deeply rooted rivalry deeply rooted rivalry ahem jokerit have been around since and joined the top flight only the early helsingfors ifk have been around since but fans only started taking hockey seriously the think you exagerating here however been proved that both fan groups can cheer the same team that the finnish national team maybe that how you could set huge franchise finland one has ever said that the team must called after one city play all its games one arena just one team finland and team sweden the nhl just wouldn make any sense have way more talent than the total north american talent after couple seasons you would never see the cup going anywhere outside the nordic presuming that our teams would have the advantage drafting local talent prooposed that rather bold claim the light how successful the canadian american olympic teams have been and they had play according our set rules and international ice the olympic teams contained about much talent your average expansion team canada had eric lindros sean burke joe juneau and chris kontos another four five have been deep subs the nhl for the yanks keith tkachuk scott lachance bret hedican shawn mceachern steve heintze ted donato joe sacco and bill guerin have been line players the nhl while robb stauber has done well for the kings goal nothing more fact sure that all star team assembled from the best finnish league teams would better the nhl than hartford tampa bay currently are doing but what happens all top class finnish swedish players gradually end with helsinki stockholm the north american based ones gradually retire and canadian american team allowed draft new players from scandinavia here what the hockey news scouts think our nhl based players superstar star nhl regular nhl regular role player finland jyrki lumme teppo numminen peter ahola jari kurri christian ruuttu teemu selanne esa tikkanen obviously selanne ratings would higher today than they were january sweden ulf samuelsson fredrik olausson niklas lidstrom calle johansson kjell samuelsson tommy sjodin tommy albelin mats sundin thomas steen thomas sandstrom ulf dahlen michael nylander per erik eklund johan garpenlov mikael andersson jan erixon this would interesting clearly finland top five players winnipeg selanne numminen vancouver lumme los angeles jari kurri and new york tikkanen are right there with any five man unit pittsburgh have but have doubts about the home based finnish players the national team did well the canada cup and world championships largely due the efforts markus ketterer the goalie the players listed above and luck there presumably lot decent players finland that wouldn superstars the highest level but still valuable role players however guess would that the finnish canada cup team would team the nhl sweden easier judge because they have more players north america their points total players seven more than ottawa top players combined estimate there are six more nhl regulars back home sweden all swedish team would assemble about skill points deducting some points from pittsburgh rangers and other teams that rely swedish players the swedish team would finish sixth place about high boston vancouver calgary and montreal paper the dynasty talk isn completely unfounded here all finnish all swedish team might have advantage because the players would playing home half the time won have adapt foreign country and foreign language and presumably play the wide open european variant hockey rather than have learn the north american checking game however free agency becomes factor the top scandinavian players still might end playing for large market teams after couple years the same way edmonton dynasty crumbled the late some fringe players likely will drafted other nhl teams having exclusive talent pool might bit unfair after all settle for compromise prohibit all european teams from signing north american during the first two rounds but allow them keep their top two players after this the amateur draft should open anyone finland over czech the final bruins over blackhawks marcu
rec.sport.hockey	nhlpa poll stats uptade uptade here are the standings for the poll after votes points for for point for nhlpa game det chi van mtl pit wsh bos asw cgy que ase wpg otw stl tor buf phi tby min atlanta win turner cup not the game but person vote edm htf teams have point continue send your votes this format until april approximately keywords email iskander ayari loria ayari loria
rec.sport.hockey	truly sad day for hockey fine year history came close tonight the minnesota north stars norm stars whichever you prefer lost the red wings score the stars goals were scored mike mcphee and ulf dahlen who netted two including the final one franchise history with less than minute play tonight the air the stars telecast announcer shaver the voice the north stars stated basically that will not follow the team dallas shaver when asked his son who was doing the broadcast with him what will you now responded first going get new pair slippers then going sit easy chair and watch the world thank you north stars and thank you shaver for years minnesota memories joel alvstad
rec.sport.hockey	new finnish star born article apr tnclus tele nokia hahietanen tnclus tele nokia writes saw yesterday game between team sweden and team finland most might know that was played stockholm and the result was for the home team that nothing very special but was very surprised saku koivu must admit that surprised already the finnish playoffs and now team finland saku koivu light weight player consider his size according stats only and kgs and only but real two way player skates well can score gives nice passes does even bodycheckings really something watch the the size isn always everything maybe remember harlamov and they say that saku still growing during last year saku isn that small any longer guess heard tall the moment and will still grow petteri kortelainen
rec.sport.hockey	helsinki stockholm nhl expansion article apr abo mlindroos finabo abo marcus lindroos inf writes polaris utu franti polaris utu writes not too low perhaps but surely not high that european nhl division the finnish team for example would contain all players currently the national team plus top class foreigner two they would entirely different league than tps jokerit both whom have perhaps dozen players international class even that why settle for minor league when you could have the best how many players international class average nhl team has top players just play more smaller rinks the quality european hockey really poor then recent years only few north american usually good farm players players have got place finnish league elitserien while most have been shipped back petteri kortelainen
rec.sport.hockey	radio stations article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes greanias texas mitre org steve greanias writes not have cable and the nights the caps don play would like tune other games does anyone have list the radio stations which broadcast the games for the nhl teams thanks advance can give you couple detroit wjr will broadcasting least the first couple games the wings toronto series and since they broadcast watts you may able pick after dark where you are the pittsburgh penguins games used broadcast kdka but don know whether they will pre empted baseball and moved another station not you can try those the local baseball teams aren playing the same time anyway randy kdka has first rights pirates games and will split probably conflicts for penguins games which are preempted check out wdve that right dve also watts kevin stamber purdue university funny sig today
rec.sport.hockey	new franchise name the new name florida panthers the panther endangered species mostly located the everglades couple years ago there were license plates made with panthers them part the revenue were some protection fund the name the new president the panthers should announced today yesterday paper huizenga new hockey team will take the ice the miami arena this fall the team has guaranteed two year lease with the arena with four one year options that could run through not our choice james blosser lawyer and huizenga aid said about ruling out the arena long term option the nhl told can stay there not economically feasible one reason because the miami heat basketball team controls skybox and advertising revenue the arena reducing the hockey team profit potential the hockey team attracting arena site proposals from broward dade and palm beach counties leading site vacant land near joe robbie stadium where residents days ago agreed drop their opposition hockey arena ending eight year battle wills compliments the news sun sentinel jim fitz sanchez castranova
rec.sport.hockey	panther president promised would give you the name the panther president after huizenga announced the team name announced that bill torrey named the first president the panthers little bio from sun sentinel torrey the architect four consecutive stanley cup champions persident and general manager the new york islanders throughout his years the nhl bill torrey bow ties have become much signature andre agassi hair the panthers will introduce uniform insignia and ticket price information early next month the meantime huizenga leaves the day day operation the hands torrey and bob clarke the and the florida panthers was chosen the name south florida nhl team focus attention endangered species there are florida panthers the everglades national park the big cypress national preserve and other parts southwestern florida the panther the quickest striking all cats torrey said hopefully that the way play ice more bio torrey huizenga has the first man hired the expansion islanders and the one most responsible for guiding the islanders four consecutive stanley cup championships their first after only eight seasons and consecutive winning seasons executive vice president the california golden seals torrey watched the seals the play offs only their second nhl season guess this completes own personal hat trick said torrey native montreal but resident bear lakes country club palm beach jim other accounts gorycki sol cse fau edu jimg cybernet cse fau edu repeat myself when under stress repeat myself when under stress repeat myself when under stress repeat myself when under stress repeat adrian belew indicipline
rec.sport.hockey	pens playoff radio coverage was radio stations article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes greanias texas mitre org steve greanias writes can give you couple detroit wjr will broadcasting least the first couple games the wings toronto series and since they broadcast watts you may able pick after dark where you are the pittsburgh penguins games used broadcast kdka but don know whether they will pre empted baseball and moved another station not you can try those the local baseball teams aren playing the same time anyway according this morning post gazette the pens will carried kdka radio unless the pirates are playing when the pirates play the games will carried wdve wdve will carry games starting with tonight game fact after this season kdka will longer the flagship station for the pens the penguins and kbl have struck new deal regarding the and radio rights the games seems more than likely that wdve will the flagship radio station next season kbl will carry games with the games simulcast kdka the remaining games well some the early round playoff games will available subscription only receive the games you have pay one time hook fee and then monthly fee dollars also under the new deal there will longer radio simulcasts there will broadcast team and radio broadcast team word who the announcers will mike lange and paul steigerwald are both under contract with kdka but their contracts expire the end this season kbl president bill craig said like hire lange and steigerwald lori contact for the penguins lli cmu edu
rec.sport.hockey	wirtz weenie what the deal with bill wirtz apparently the blackhawks louis game was standing room only sell out usual but the hawks reported the attendace gee wonder wirtz planning use this justification for continuing keep home games off what schmuck other news the penguins announced yesterday that they will have fewer broadcast games and will have games some sort subscription pay per view system yuck ralph
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains article apr iastate edu njdevils iastate edu cire trehguad writes anna matyas andrew cmu edu wrote michael collingridge writes and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated wasn ron francis captain the whalers when was traded pittsburgh and rick tochett was the captain the flyers when traded the pens recently and course mike ramsey was one time the captain buffalo prior being traded pittsburgh currently the penguins have former captains and real captain lemieux playing for them they rotate the during the season and even the while mario was out even troy loney has worn the for the pens jay john huber aka jay penguins stanley cup champions software engineering institute pirates east champions sei mastercraft the only boat for skiing
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes was nice see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead showing another baseball game they decided the stanley cup playoffs classy move espn what did you leave the room each the times they said that there were other night baseball games every break they took back the studio mentioned followed gonna show you hockey instead wife and are hoping for rain every baseball game they have feed for tommorrow night point glad they showed hockey but baseball was available anywhere else you can bet you would watched baseball last night pete clark
rec.sport.hockey	travesty the joe louis detroit april development that shocked most knowledgable observers the detroit redwings scored less than six goals against the best goaltender the world route win over the best team the nhl the toronto maple leafs the leafs could not faulted they completely dominated the inferior detroit squad and clearly deserved win only the biased officiating andy van hellemond and the idiots that insisted upon throwing octopus the ice every stoppage obvious attempt distract the superior visiting side prevented all out massacre the wings the league best team alan this sweet roger sweet look forward the next installment wednesday night trust you too
rec.sport.hockey	who picks first article apr epas toronto edu sclark epas utoronto susan clark writes according the fan here ottawa has won the daigle sweepstakes they didn mention why but san jose had more goals than the sen sens have hunch this why ottawa would pick first not mistaken san jose had more wins than ottawa first tiebreaker the nhl always most wins alan
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage anna matyas andrew cmu edu wrote antonio pera writes loved the abc coverage the production was excellent the appearance was excellent had sleek modern look this was the first time heard thorne clement thought they were great only request leave micheals out this annoys was skeptical before the game but was pleasantly surprised the coverage was particularly impressed the close range camera coverage work the corners and behind the play without losing beat getting back the puck boy everyone has been ripping espn hockey coverage just pittsburgher who are thrilled with lange steigy for all you who are unaware espn bought the air time from abc and did all the production advertising sales commentating etc and even reaped any made enjoy caleb
rec.sport.hockey	looking for boxscores looking for all the boxscores any nhl team for some personal research can someone help michel arsenault
rec.sport.hockey	div and conf names apr newshub ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes however that aside the real question whether you like the idea changing the names based the reasons given for making easier for the casual fan whether you like the idea unique divisional names based individuals who deserve the honour imo the latter nice and unique touch that differs from other sports addition not think that changing divisional names will have effect the number people that are interested hockey pointless exercise anyway there are several problems with the way the game being presented the fans feel that geographical names would enhance regional loyalties more than names honouring personages and course they would not appear nearly confusing one approaching the sport for the first time another thing that bothers the points system percentages used the other major sports are clearly more informative when look the nhl standings the first thing have make quick calculation account for games hand which almost always the case some will object percentages claiming perhaps that americanization the sport but feel that using percentages more informative and whether american not irrelevant the current names are inappropriate then that separate issue not central the original article something consider additionally whether not players like orr who contributed the glory the sport would have been able without organized professional league play this case honouring builders the league opposed builders the sport becomes chicken and egg type question although was the chicken even orr couldn have contributed without the likes norris you would have agree that norris couldn have contributed without the likes orr and taking poll most fans would quickly tell you who the fans feel made the more meaningful contribution exactly true naming divisions and trophies after smythe and the bunch the same kind nepotism that put stein the hall fame have always thought that this was nonsense dunno the stein comparison justifiable since doesn look though his unanimous acceptance the hall will hold doesn look the division names are going hold either does cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains and course mike ramsey was one time the captain buffalo prior being traded pittsburgh currently the penguins have former captains and real captain lemieux playing for them they rotate the during the season and even the while mario was out even troy loney has worn the for the pens had heard perhaps incorrectly that while lemieux was out noone wore their jersey the took turns doing captain duties whatever they are scott scott marks launchpad unc edu scott marks launchpad unc edu the opinions expressed are not necessarily those the university north carolina chapel hill the campus office for information technology the experimental bulletin board service internet launchpad unc edu
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains anna matyas andrew cmu edu wrote wasn ron francis captain the whalers when was traded pittsburgh what still imho ranks the all time greatest blunder not mention ice blunder the whalers ever committed eddie johnston and coach rick ley decided that francis was incapable leader and stripped him the captain december the whole organization read and ley and default owner richard gordon because was too much dupe know how much was being blind sided dumped francis all season starting with refusing sign him new contract publicly humiliating him stripping him the and then trading him that spring the penguins classy guy that the loss francis and too lesser extent ulf was one series decimating player moves which stripped the personality and fan awareness from the team that has put them the precarious position they are today gratuitous good note did preside over the organization when acquired verbeek cassels sanderson poulin nylander etc stripped the roster but did lay foundation real live hartford whalers season ticket holder steveg cadkey com
rec.sport.hockey	the most average player the nhl and now interrupt your regularly scheduled news reading bring you another message sponsored the department really mundane statistics passed the final individual player stats posted here the other day through filter average out games goals assists points and penalty minutes for the mythical average nhl pro who played the league this season why because monday and didn feel like writing any real code anyway after wiped out the odd goalies the list came with nhl average pts pim then passed the list through second time come with the players who had the smallest percentage difference each the categories marty mcinnis nyi pts pim igor kravchuk edm pts pim these two are close games goals assists and points but are too far off pim this leaves the most average player the nhl bobby carpenter was pts pim what honor also passed the list through with the goalies still included kravchuk and carpenter were still the top three but rob dimaio came flying from behind take the title nhl average pts pim igor kravchuk edm pts pim bobby carpenter was pts pim rob dimaio pts pim all really kind underwhelming when you think about and now back our regularly scheduled programming
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team milwaukee charlie betz cbetz romulus cray com writes after reading some the reports possible nhl moves milwaukee that milwaukee should have nhl team thought pass along story heard recently this second hand don know how true but have reason doubt either bradley center milwaukee home the milwaukee admirals minor leauge hockey team the owner the admirals sorry can remember his name either owns least shelled out the majority the funds build the bradley center lloyd pettit supposedly was approached the nhl about expansion franchise but turned down because thought the franchise fee million was too high like said don know whether this story true just rumor but true don look for nhl team milwaukee anytime soon the admirals aren going forced out the building and you won see nhl club and minor league club the same building especially since the nba milwaukee bucks play there well yes true that refused buy franchise from the nhl for but the time the reason was that the established market for teams was much less than that felt that one would pay for expansion team and that would simply wait buy existing franchise for less than that but the market fooled him and teams have been created for apiece the last three years and even the existing teams can moved for less than and doubt that could get one for that little pettit gambled and lost now have pay more
rec.sport.hockey	possible canadian team this all point team for the canadian nhlers who are not playoff bound centers geoff sanderson hartford sanderson will team canada but out position center although was drafted center and played there rookie sanderson scored goals this season left wing
rec.sport.hockey	results april gerald olchowy golchowy alchemy chem utoronto writes podein interesting case because was eligible play cape breton the ahl playoffs like kovalev zubov and andersson obviously sather and pocklington are not the total scrooges everyone makes them out certainly this case they massively outclassed paramount and the new york rangers what the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus know that the rangers are holding back kovalev zubov and andersson for binghamton but also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander play for springfield while nylander wanted play for sweden the whalers allowed the nhl decide and the nhl chose the wcs how does this differ from the rangers and oilers did the whalers have through the league could they have forced nylander play springfield
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils rex wang wangr vccsouth its rpi edu spews forth stupidly are people here stupid what tie breaker cause they have have the same record how can people sooooo stuppid put win first the list for tie breaker tie breaker how can there different record man thought people this net are good with hockey might not great math but tell how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can believe people actually put win first tie breaker please please please tell that you don actually attend rensselaer and that you just work for its that this was tounge cheek does this mean that should cutting off alumni contributions increasing them
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains article apr samba oit unc edu scott marks launchpad unc edu scott marks writes and course mike ramsey was one time the captain buffalo prior being traded pittsburgh currently the penguins have former captains and real captain lemieux playing for them they rotate the during the season and even the while mario was out even troy loney has worn the for the pens think that mike foligno was the captain the sabres when got traded the leafs also wasn rick vaive the captain the leafs when got traded chicago with steve thomas for olcyzk and someone speaking the leafs believe that darryl sittler was their captain torn the off his jersey but think claimed the captaincy later when was traded the flyers yeah course gretzky was the captain the oilers before was traded wasn gary
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played mon april toronto detroit first period detroit yzerman gallant ciccarelli toronto cullen clark gill second period detroit sheppard probert coffey detroit burr racine detroit chiasson coffey detroit howe yzerman drake toronto gilmour borschevsky ellett third period detroit racine primeau drake toronto lefebvre cullen pearson detroit power play special goals total scorer pts burr chiasson ciccarelli coffey drake gallant howe primeau probert racine sheppard yzerman toronto power play scorer pts borschevsky clark cullen ellett gill gilmour lefebvre pearson winnipeg vancouver first period vancouver adams linden bure vancouver craven bure murzyn winnipeg steen shannon housley second period scoring third period winnipeg king barnes vancouver linden courtnall mclean vancouver ronning courtnall vancouver power play scorer pts adams bure courtnall craven linden mclean murzyn ronning winnipeg power play scorer pts barnes housley king shannon steen
rec.sport.hockey	travesty the joe louis article apr mtroyal caldwell mtroyal writes detroit april development that shocked most knowledgable observers the detroit redwings scored less than six goals against the best goaltender the world route win over the best team the nhl the toronto maple leafs not only that but not mistaken detroit scored goals their first five shots net looks like toronto cream cheese run continues that swiss cheese after watching potvin leaning towards the latter bill
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils article lrw rpi edu wangr rpi edu writes are people here stupid what tie breaker cause they have have the same record how can people sooooo stuppid put win first the list for tie breaker tie breaker how can there different record man thought people this net are good with hockey might not great math but tell how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can believe people actually put win first tie breaker didn see any smilies this message pts team team there you two teams that tie points without identical records
rec.sport.hockey	request for video pittsburgh area there was apparently minute special here the penguins season abc wtae channel immediately preceding the opening game against the devils sunday only turned time watch the credits anyone taped and willing let borrow dub would appreciate would willing come pick and return the next day and buy you beer please respond via mail thanks lot yeah was any good billy
rec.sport.hockey	bay area media wings leafs coverage article dreier apr durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu roland dreier writes the san francisco bay area media reporting tonight that the detroit red wings beat the toronto maple leafs can someone who not part the media conspiracy against the leafs tell how the game really went expecting win for the leafs shutout for potvin hat trick for andreychuk and goal and assists for gilmour the leafs really lost how many penalties did whichever biased ref was the game have call against the leafs let the red wings win thank you very much roland dreier dreier math berkeley edu sorry disappoint you but the red wings earned the victory easily watched most the game espn soon realized that they were televising the game which was the beginning the second the maple leafs were flat very flat meanwhile the red wings were skating very freely and dictating the pace the game didn detect any bad penalty calls van hellemond did his usual good job toronto looked like how expected them for their first playoff game few years nervous for the leafs sake hope they can rid themselves the butterflies for game game indicative the series gonna quick tom galvin galvint taurus nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	schedule article netnews upenn edu kkeller mail sas upenn edu keith keller writes article qup linnotb master rose hulman edu swartzjh rosevc rose hulman edu writes does anyone have the games espn will airing this week hopefully the detroit toronto game tongiht though abc did decent job getting some king hockey games televised nationally tonight what the hell this why the hell espn showing some stupid baseball game when baseball not even three weeks into the season and hockey the playoffs wait know the answer but still really pisses off end they better start putting some more cking games they will never make any money off the deal that brought hockey back espn aargh not that watch anyway but hockey needs all the publicity can get keith keller let rangers let quakers kkeller mail sas upenn edu ivy league champs cow not vegetarian dish keith keller you obviously don understand how scheduling works espn had prior contracts baseball show monday night games and had contracted all the other shows well advance the nhl deal was very late the scheduling process you normally have this one plus year out the nhl package was finished two weeks before the season started espn has shown tremendous commitment the nhl squeezing extra telecasts when could like the last minnesota game and putting stanley cup games backup their baseball telecasts which favorable circumstances they could pull off last night but the bottom line that espn cannot break contracts will they must honor the previous deals they made does have something with especially you risk lawsuit for breach contract with baseball relax happy don get sportschannel anyway tom galvin galvint taurus nps navy mil
rec.sport.hockey	west coast nhl playoff games easterners who have newspapers with editors unsympathetic playoff pools often don get summaries from west coast games since they finish too late night for the morning edition and sure others too would greatly appreciate scoring summaries west coast playoff games could posted this group right away basically all need are goal scorers and assists don bother with times penalties shots etc this would make lot pool obsessed people very happy guess with the senators out golfing now the local papers have lost interest thanks
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff results for games played nhl playoff results for conference semi finals best seven patrick adams norris smythe buf leads stl leads win pit leads bos chi van leads nyi mon tor leads was leads que leads det leads cal toronto maple leafs detroit red wings leads series period det yzerman gallant ciccarelli tor cullen clark gill period det sheppard probert coffey det burr racine det chiasson coffey det howe yzerman drake tor gilmour borschevsky ellett period det racine primeau drake tor lefebvre cullen pearson powerplay opportunities maple leafs red wings shots goal maple leafs red wings toronto maple leafs potvin shots saves detroit red wings cheveldae shots saves att winnipeg jets vancouver canucks leads series period van adams linden bure van craven bure murzyn win steen shannon housley period none period win king barnes van linden courtnall mclean van ronning courtnall powerplay opportunities jets canucks shots goal jets canucks winnipeg jets essensa shots saves vancouver canucks mclean shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	series game kings flames los angeles kings notes and game reports kings calgary flames the third place kings opened the stanley cup playoffs calgary against the second place flames and came out with impressive victory front non sellout crowd the saddledome calgary symthe division playoff hockey this was both teams seemed bit tense the opening period though the kings scored off the opening face off the kings got into the flow the game much earlier than the flames they played out standing team defense took the flames the first period record their first shot goal the kings ranked the playoff teams penalty killing shut down the flames the flames went the power play and could record only shot goal those opportunities the kings had their problems the power play yet they did manager score goals tries the kings forwards back checked while the defense stood the flames the blue line allowing the kings take took the home ice advantage away from the flames rob blake missed the game due the lower back contusion but pected the lineup wednesday wayne gretzky suffered charlie horse his right leg took few shifts the second period before retiring the dressing room for the rest the game interviewed the radio this morning stated that was fine and would the lineup wednesday period the kings got things started right off the opening face off gretzky won the draw with the puck going sydor crossed center ice and slapped the puck into the flames zone and behind the net the puck carried around the far side where robitaille wacked and the rebound bounced sandstrom put the puck behind the flames net where gretzky picked gretzky set his office moved the near side and passed into the near circle where sydor had moved sydor who got the puck between the face off dot and the hash mark shot off the pass beating vernon low and between the legs millen and fleury went off skrudland went off but the kings failed convert carson went off and the flames failed convert dahlquist went off and dahl went off giving the kings second which they failed convert the kings recorded goal posts the period period the kings opened with carried over from the period which they failed convert with seconds left the vernon put bouncing puck into the stands and received delay game calgary evened the score the ensuing kings power play kurri with the puck the neutral zone tried put the puck into the flames zone but hit the stick fleury and bounced suter the flames blue line suter skated down the near wing and into the kings zone faked shot the circle and skated around kurri cut thorugh the crease got hrudey with him and put the puck behind hrudey his stick side for short hander the kings reclaimed the lead seconds later the same power play shuchuk the far circle passed sydor the top the slot and headed for the net sydors shot hit shuchuk the back and dropped into the low slot where kings shuchuk and granato were being checked flames carson came from the far corner picked the loose puck and snapped wrist shot between the legs vernon from feet above the crease the kings widened their lead just seconds later rychel was checked off the puck the flames blue line taylor picked the puck and sent pass cross the slot huddy huddy shot off the pass from the near face off dot beating diving vernon the glove side later the kings had goal lead mcsorley took shot form the near point that hit flame and deflected towards the boards marty got his own rebound skated the bottom the circle and sent pass into the low slot that hit dahlquist the leg and deflected past the stick vernon skrudland went off but the kings could not convert sydor went off and watters went off giving the flames second but they failed convert mcsorley went off and the flames had consecutive power plays but the flames killed themselves when suter went off for high sticking sandstrom went off close out the period the kings hit goal post the period period the kings used the phrase initiate not retaliate and was very evident here the period the kings continued pound the body and the flames continued take bad penalties take themselves out the game the kings extended their lead goals the mark the kings shot the puck into the near corner the flames zone vernon went behind the net cut off the puck but could not control donnelly who was behind him wacked the puck sending into the low slot vernon slid back the crease granato got shot that hit flame and bounced the left the net where millen fired the rebound behind vernon sydor went off nieuwendyk went off the teams skated otto skating down the far side stepped around mcsorley cut the net and passed dahlquist the low slot dahlquist cut through the top the crease and put the puck under diving hrudey carson and rychel came when carson passed across rychel fleury tripped rychel with call the puck got shoveled into the far corner where fleury knocked rychel down and checked him from behind into the boards drawing minute major and game misconduct the mark unfortunately the kings squandered the minute power play when granato and watters took penalties the flames closed within the mark macinnis the near point passed yawney the far point took few strides towards the net wound and drove shot off the near post and over the glove hrudey the play started another faceoff that the kings lost timeout macinnis took penalty and the kings converted the power play seal the victory sandstrom skating down the far wing the flames zone cut towards the back the net just crossed the goal line passed the puck into the low slot the far side carson who shot off the pass beating vernon the ice stick side the mark skrudland went off for slashing and stern went crazy went after shuchuk stern wound with double minor for roughing single minor for cross checking and minute misconduct and took the flames right out the game the plus side the kings for the most part played very disciplined hockey they let calgary retaliate the kings played good team defense and excellent penalty killing the minus side the kings lost almost every face off this must improve the flames will surely get that power play back track notes the kings recalled guy leveque brandy semchuk and jim thomson from phoenix wayne gretzkys period assist was his career playoff point the kings entered the game the league shots per game against giving the opposing team average shots per game flames goaltender mike vernon entered the game with record afternoon games the flames entered the game with success rate the power play over their last games the teams were against each other the regular season playoffs campbell conference smythe division cal leads win van norris division stl chi stl leads tor det wales conference adams division buf bos buf leads mon que que leads patrick division pit pit leads nyi was was leads records smythe norris patrck adams overall home road total box score calgary los angeles period sydor gretzky sandstrom millen high sticking cal fleury high sticking cal skrudland interference carson tripping cal dahlquist holding stick cal dahl roughing period cal verson delay game served ashton cal suter fleury carson shuchuk sydor huddy taylor rychel mcsorley unassisted cal skrudland elbowing sydor tripping watters hooking mcsorley holding cal suter high sticking sandstrom hooking period millen granato donnelly sydor hooking cal nieuwendyk tripping cal dahlquist otto cal fleury major boarding game misconduct granato tripping watters interference cal yawney macinnis reichel cal macinnis roughing carson sandstrom robitaille hardy holding cal skrudland slashing cal stern double roughing cross checking min misconduct overtime none shots los angeles calgary power play conversions for for the year against for the year goalies los angeles hrudey calgary vernon attendance scratches rob blake back contusion guy leveque numbers lonnie loach numbers marc potvin numbers brandy semchuk numbers robb stauber numbers brent thompson numbers jim thomson numbers lines forwards robitaille gretzky sandstrom donnelly millen kurri rychel conacher taylor granato carson shuchuk lines defense huddy sydor watters zhitnik hardy mcsorley denotes starting lineup next game wednesday april calgary flames pacific time prime ticket stan willis willis empire dnet hac com net contact kings talk with the kings mailing list kings stanford edu subscribe unsubscribe kings request stanford edu
rec.sport.hockey	murray was wings will win article apr sol uvic gballent hudson uvic writes article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes are predicting although think bryan murray probably the best have ever seen hockey how you figure that when bryan murray took over the wings they were pretty good team that was contending for the stanley cup but looked unlikely win now they are pretty good team that contending for the stanley cup but looks unlikely win truly great would have been able make the moves push the team the upper echelon the nhl and maybe win the stanley cup good like murray can think murray has done great job picked ciccarelli sheppard ysebaert howe coffey and riendeau plus some depth players without giving anything the wings needed any his top prospects all this three years has anyone done better the year before took over the wings didn even make the playoffs there was about year and half during demers stint that the wings did but that was due demers motavational skills and clutch and grab style they didn have much talent gerald murray wasn responsible for primeau although not ready admit that horrible pick they hired him after the draft which has never made sense his first pick was lapointe ron and one major goals leave the next president new set things worry about getting bored reading the same problems the paper decade after decade want people have deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes also think that they will have hard time with pittsburgh they face them the finals which what all the detroit sportswriters are predicting although think bryan murray probably the best have ever seen hockey not impressed with his abilities bench coach general motivator with the amount talent has this team should have blown away everyone the norris there not another team the norris maybe even the campbell conference that can hold candle detroit paper terms pure talent but some guys have not been pulling their weight times this year scotty bowman the other hand who has won think correct wrong nine stanley cups outstanding coach and think could outcoach murray they faced each other bryan murray has done very little yzerman fedorov cheveldae chaisson the whole russian strategy was product the previous murray has made couple decent trades that about that would hardly rank him the best wasn primeau murray first decision gerald
rec.sport.hockey	results april article apr iscnvx lmsc lockheed com spiegel sgi msd lmsc lockheed com mark spiegel writes according the murky news the team usa roster names and teams played for listed goalies forwards tony amonte new york rangers ted drury harvard univ rob gaudreau san jose sharks craig johnson univ minnesota jeff lazaro ottawa senators mike modano minnesota north stars olczyk new york rangers derek plante univ minnesota duluth shion podein edmonton oilers david sacco boston university darren turcotte new york rangers doug weight edmonton oilers looks like the edmonton oilers just decided take european vacation this spring ranford tugnutt benning manson smith buchberger and corson are playing for canada podein and weight are playing for the kravchuk playing for the russians know had nagging injuries late the season podein interesting case because was eligible play cape breton the ahl playoffs like kovalev zubov and andersson obviously sather and pocklington are not the total scrooges everyone makes them out certainly this case they massively outclassed paramount and the new york rangers gerald
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains michael collingridge writes and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated wasn ron francis captain the whalers when was traded pittsburgh mom rick tocchet was captain the flyers for several years before was traded the pens john santore break the surface tension with our wild kinetic dreams rush grand designs philadelphia flyers john santore jsbh andrew cmu edu rush yes king crimson emerson lake and palmer marillion genesis gabriel
rec.sport.hockey	sharks kingston fired article apr leland stanford edu terry garfield stanford edu terry wong writes think that jack ferreira firing eventually led kingston firing you mention consistency vision think the sharks lost that with the loss ferreira there has never been headed that has ever worked you need one person making the personnel decisions the top not management committee the conventional wisdom from around the league that ferreira would have made the moves that would have fielded better product the ice how exactly would ferreira accomplished this the three headed ship has taken lot heat but nobody explained how things would have been any different had ferreira still been there would ferreira have made more trades who would have had traded would have made fewer trades who should not have been traded sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes gballent hudson uvic greg ballentine writes article vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes also think that they will have hard time with pittsburgh they face them the finals which what all the detroit sportswriters are predicting although think bryan murray probably the best have ever seen hockey how you figure that when bryan murray took over the wings they were pretty good team that was contending for the stanley cup but looked unlikely win now they are pretty good team that contending for the stanley cup but looks unlikely win truly great would have been able make the moves push the team the upper echelon the nhl and maybe win the stanley cup good like murray can maintain the team success but can push them the next level when jacques demers brought the wings the conference finals twice few years back had everyone the team giving percent but had very little talent had yzerman bob probert who had drinking problems the time and couple decent goaltenders hanlon and stefan who got hot that about can you name one player those earlier teams who even deserved the all star game much less actually got there other than yzerman and probert like petr klima give break when they faced edmonton both those conference finals hard they played was clear they faced team that simply had superior talent the wings that why they could not get the finals also that time the norris division was still the weakest division hockey and getting past chicago and toronto was not impressive today murray has brought scoring talent the wings that they did not have few years ago when devellano was and demers was coach name few ysebaert kozlov and paul coffey who has made definite positive impact the power play especially murray has built one the most talented teams hockey the present with the possible exception the pittsburgh penguins the wings have least five goal scorers that can think and couple defenseman with over games worth playoff experience murray one failing that unlike the other you mentioned who are definitely also good don get wrong has not found for himself strong coach motivate the team out and give percent for the full minutes every night like they did the last time they made cup run when team wins loses reflection the and the coach which was the point original post the team outmatches their opponent terms talent but loses anyway which has been the case this year when the wings have struggled that indicates that the has done his job building the team but the coach has failed motivate them the case the last run the wings made the playoffs before murray came they gave opponents hard time who should have beaten them easily that indicates good coaching making for lack talent all this fine never said that murray was bad merely said that isn the best hockey even contender for that honor murray great you claim the wings would have won the stanley cup now probably more than once was great you claim and was poor coach you claim would have been intelligent enough hire the coach push the team the next level success but murray average unspectacular nhl coach and pretty good none this true anyway gregmeister
rec.sport.hockey	ron francis matthew rush writes there award for best back behind hockey great underneath all the hype about lemieux stevens jagr ulf etc ron francis has quietly put together point season goals and assists games that was probably the best acquisition the penguins have made since getting lemieux apologies rick tocchet who has had hell year himself the pens got just the right person just the right time when they got francis before the playoffs two years ago back mario who was the second line center before they got francis remember randy gilhen who really plays tough ace the face off circle but nobody with all the skills francis has scoring passing winning face offs and putting into every game every night just wanted glow little know what you mean glow everytime ronnie out the ice fact one the neatest things about seeing the pens person that can key him instead watching what probably seeing does many subtle things behind the play said interview recently that when was kid his dad stressed the importance playing two way hockey that you have learn how play defense well offense and obviously took that advice heart was breath fresh air when arrived pittsburgh the team whose forwards for the most part couldn and wouldn play lick defense really difficult assess what the key trades were that brought all this success the pens you mention rick tocchet and has certainly helped and even kjell has been steady but looking this team you could almost take any one them out the line permanently and replace them with extremely mediocre player and wouldn matter had pick the top three acquisitions recent years they would tom barrasso ron francis larry murphy love put francis first but think the only thing that could really damage the pens right now would lose barrasso mom
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach corner summary april apr don cherry coach corner user allan sullivan ualber writes next clip was shown from earlier episode which don was proclaiming doug gilmour the best player not only the nhl but the world what about players like lemieux don said that gilmour was the best player not designated point getter its not like baseball where you have designatted hitter who can score runs but can play defense gilmour good two way player this clip was shown local news pittsburgh last night kdka complete with animated sarcasm the sportscaster the second time cherry has been shown local pittsburgh news the last couple weeks both times was blasting lemieux jim murawski software engineer office administrative computing and fax information services jjm andrew cmu edu carnegie mellon university office ucc forbes avenue pittsburgh mieux magnifique soixante six claude non there are days until clinton clinocchio leaves office too many
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach corner summary april article allan swanlake allan ualberta allan sullivan writes next clip was shown from earlier episode which don was proclaiming doug gilmour the best player not only the nhl but the world what about players like lemieux don said that gilmour was the best player not designated point getter its not like baseball where you have designatted hitter who can score runs but can play defense gilmour good two way player what can you expect from buffoon who said that the pens should have drafted kirk muller instead mario lemieux perhaps once upon time don cherry had some insight into the game hockey but really degenerated into parody himself sherri nichols snichols adobe com
rec.sport.hockey	nords habs was robbed article apr mcgill jbe jbe musicb mcgill writes aargh paul stewart the worst and most biased ref presently the nhl called total penalties the habs and one the nordiques the nords penalty came stewart being nordique himself was looking call penalties the habs while letting the nords get away with murder was robbed patrick roy the reason the game was lost and ron hextall the reason quebec won everybody said would come down goaltending that goaltending was the key etc etc well the key doesn quite fit you montreal the dionne penalty was kind cheesy call but let face literally left his feet throw elbow blaming stewart just excuse avoid facing the fact that roy allowed what was one the worst goals could possibly allow even saw the whole shot dammit besides stewart evened things bit calling quebec penalty montreal played solid game although they still don know how clear traffic front the net the loss schneider will hurt even more normally would say that any team that blows goal lead with less than five let alone two minutes regulation time playoff game especially needs smacked upside their collective heads but don think this was team loss although keane should have been able clear the zone just prior the first quebec goal roy paid big money play looked like player industrial league sakic shot demers should start racicot the next game not that should let the damn team read the papers for the next day two and maybe this article possible patrick roy collapsed after letting the tieing goal was shaky and his knees for the rest the night the winning goal shouldn have gone didn think the wrap around was bad the second goal also didn think scott young should have gotten around the defender can remember who the first place but you are correct shouldn have gone regardless well least the bruins lost also yep moog looked bad mogilny goal with five seconds left the second imo how about neely though holy shit what player speaking great players man man can quebec skate haven seen team potent the rush long time watching them break out their zone especially sundin treat watch they remind the red army but still hate the team the rest the games didn louis winning goal come powerplay penalties will cost chicago dearly especially against detroit same goes for calgary very very undisciplined when marty mcsorely waving guys the bench avoid fights you know something new jersey was overmatched terreri heroics notwithstanding mario unbelievable and jagr for some reason shows the playoffs but hate that team anyway dchhabra stpl ists pissed off habs fan
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta hockey hell article fovj miumht andrew cmu edu mamatha devineni ratnam andrew cmu edu writes well not that bad but still pretty pissed the local abc coverage they cut off the first half hour coverage playing stuff deleted here the solution your problem move canada yesterday was able watch four games the pitt abc cal cbc buff bos tsn and fox and mon que cbc think that each series goes its max could watching hockey playoffs for some odd consecutive nights haven counted that pure guess have two house and set them side side watch mon que and keep eye bos buff the same time did the same for the two afternoon games btw those abc commentaters were great was quite impressed they seemed know that their audience wasn likely well schooled hockey lore and they did excellent job they were quite impartial also imo dchhabra stpl ists not suffering from shortage hockey here
rec.sport.hockey	div and conf names article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes evan pritchard writes think that you are incorrect roger patrick smythe and adams all played coached the league before becoming front office types hence they did help build the league although they were not great players themselves punch imlach contributions coach and were far greater than those the above combined should name division trophy after him owner player contributions deleted are going honour those who contributed the league evolution are going honour those who contributed the glory the sport itself stuff deleted the money issue irrelevant the point that would agree and that the players that are what make the game great and not the people who put them the ice recall the author the original article that started the thread claimed that disliked the changing the names for variety reasons roger one front you flamed him rather severely the grounds that his was jingoistic rant but you also supported the name changing the grounds that the current names are inappropriate because the individuals they represent fwiw not think the flaming was warranted nor think you enhanced what credibility you have with all just observation however that aside the real question whether you like the idea changing the names based the reasons given for making easier for the casual fan whether you like the idea unique divisional names based individuals who deserve the honour imo the latter nice and unique touch that differs from other sports addition not think that changing divisional names will have effect the number people that are interested hockey pointless exercise anyway the current names are inappropriate then that separate issue not central the original article something consider additionally whether not players like orr who contributed the glory the sport would have been able without organized professional league play this case honouring builders the league opposed builders the sport becomes chicken and egg type question although was the chicken exactly true naming divisions and trophies after smythe and the bunch the same kind nepotism that put stein the hall fame have always thought that this was nonsense dunno the stein comparison justifiable since doesn look though his unanimous acceptance the hall will hold dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	hawks leafs lastnight article apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes all replays joe murphy goal shouldn have counted the game would have ended tie thought the red light went thus the review the presumption would find conclusive evidence that the puck did not the net from the replays say even from the rear the evidence wasn conclusive that the puck was out opinion was under the impression that the objective find conclusive evidence that the puck did cross the line and the replays saw showed fairly conclusively that the puck did not cross the goal line any time anyway somebody screwed dchhabra stpl ists
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes was nice see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead showing another baseball game they decided the stanley cup playoffs classy move espn was good see the wings play but lets not give espn too much credit there weren any other late baseball games they didn have another option eric sebastian pens
rec.sport.hockey	wings take game one qvos msu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the detroit red wings put lot doubter ice tonight with washing the toronto maple leafs all you toronto fans have now seen the power the mighty red wing offense toronto defense match for the wing offense for the defense probert kennedey and primeau came out hitting hard toronto players were being thrown left and right not even wendell clark was tough enough for the wings tough guys the wings only gave three goals low total for what they say mediocre defense all you leaf fans better speak now you team will probable have its season ended soon wings fans keep the support there quite few wings fans lurking about here they just tend low key and thoughtful rather than woofers suppose every family must have roger clinton though but remember paraphrase one favorite star trek lines adopt the ways the leaf fans are bad the leaf fans ron and one major goals leave the next president new set things worry about getting bored reading the same problems the paper decade after decade want people have deal with new problems president bill clinton
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes bryan murray has done very little yzerman fedorov cheveldae chaisson the whole russian strategy was product the previous murray has made couple decent trades that about that would hardly rank him the best wasn primeau murray first decision gerald there are many teams the nhl who have taken liking russian players the whole russian strategy not specific detroit devellano who was before murray what the previous also did was trade away several players who have gone well with other teams most notably memory murray craven who had few very good years with philly after leaving here also not the volume trades that will necessarily improve team but the quality them trading adam oates for bernie federko was just plain stupid even federko used great player one time most murray trades have worked significantly the wings advantage with those that didn being soured mainly injury the players involved such troy crowder who suffered back problems from which never really recovered put scotty bowman pat burns any the other better coaches the league behind the bench this detroit team and they could beat anybody randy
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage article cfoy jndv andrew cmu edu anna matyas andrew cmu edu writes thorne good and always been fan clement but miss mike emrick boyfriend who not hockey fan even looked one point and said these guys are pretty good announcers this the same guy who said that rick tocchet looks like charles bronson did your boyfriend comment the fact that clement looks like walking for brillo pad hair replacement therapy the guy just stuffed shirt who thinks the greatest hockey analyst since howie meeker for gosh sakes take schoenie any day george george ferguson arpa ferguson rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university rochester vox rochester fax
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes was nice see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead showing another baseball game they decided the stanley cup playoffs classy move espn they tried their best not show believe surprised they couldn find sprint car race mini cars through pigpens indeed short notice george george ferguson arpa ferguson rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university rochester vox rochester fax
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage article blue cis pitt edu ccohen pitt edu caleb cohen writes boy everyone has been ripping espn hockey coverage just pittsburgher who are thrilled with lange steigy for all you who are unaware espn bought the air time from abc and did all the production advertising sales commentating etc and even reaped any made the interests saving badnwidth during this heated time the year viz the early flurry retard comments coming from certain state whose name starts with and ends with why don you tell something don already know george george ferguson arpa ferguson rochester edu dept computer science uucp rutgers rochester ferguson university rochester vox rochester fax
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn article apr wuecl wustl edu jca cec wustl edu joseph charles achkar writes was nice see espn show game between the wings and leafs since the cubs and astros got rained out instead showing another baseball game they decided the stanley cup playoffs classy move espn the only reason espn showed that hockey came was because there was other baseball game scheduled for the evening randy turgeo plymouth edu joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage ccohen pitt edu caleb cohen writes boy everyone has been ripping espn hockey coverage just pittsburgher who are thrilled with lange steigy for all you who are unaware espn bought the air time from abc and did all the production advertising sales commentating etc and even reaped any made caleb not the quality espn that have problem with superb whereas did not evolve beyond the point where espn left off when hockey went this excepting use feeds from cbc the amount hockey they showing lack that complaining about they had rights two that could been shown sunday night after baseball and they had pickup trucks racing through oversized pigpens followed super home movies old car races yes was checking desperation for canucks jets last night after sportscenter gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains colling ann arbor applicon slb com michael collingridge writes and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated luc robitaille was captain the kings the first third the season until the great one came back from his disc injury was kind awkward but melrose appointed anointed tgo captain immediately upon his return after which did not score goal for something like games think luc should have remained captain all season dvb
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage article cfoy jndv andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu anna matyas writes was skeptical before the game but was pleasantly surprised the coverage was particularly impressed the close range camera coverage work the corners and behind the play without losing beat getting back the puck thorne good and always been fan clement but miss mike emrick boyfriend who not hockey fan even looked one point and said these guys are pretty good announcers this the same guy who said that rick tocchet looks like charles bronson mom have one complaint for the cameramen doing the jersey pitt series show the shots not the hits more than one occassion the camera zoomed check along the boards while the puck was the slot they panned back show the rebound maybe mom camera people were little more experienced joseph stiehm
rec.sport.hockey	ron francis not mention francis incredibly nice person over christmas break friend mine had little xmas gathering the two drove ron house while stayed the car out shyness friend went the door and rang the bell ron answered and friend introduced himself then proceeded invite francis the party ron declined because had watch his daughter then reached out and shook friend hand know this isn but don think barry bonds would this polite this situation george
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part left wings apparently part defensemen numbered through was lost when posted make things worse lost own copy have asked the sharks mailing list which did get out see someone can mail copy back someone responds will repost when get otherwise will write day two and post sorry about that larry depalma season acquired free agent from minnesota grade netter fan watching the sharks including knows where depalma was the end the season the sharks appeared still have his rights but wasn san jose wasn kansas city and his name hasn appeared the waiver wire and that kind invisibility was prevalent for the most part for depalma after being called october against the tampa bay lightning depalma had excellent week scoring points games while playing good defense unfortunately the year old depalma then disappeared the rest the way getting just more points more games and generally looked lethargic and uninterested both ends the ice then was sent down kansas city walked out from there and was suspended and later reinstated when was revealed that was injured then promptly disappeared from the watching eyes shark bytes the mailing list now known sharks officials faithful and neither the sharks nor miss him johan garpenlov season acquired trade with detroit for bob mcgill and round pick entry draft from vancouver grade after early slump garpenlov was nothing short inspirational the rest the way finishing with points games second highest total the team clicked well with team mvp kelly kisio and right wing rob gaudreau kisio got most the credit but garpenlov finishing second the mvp voting clearly demonstrated his playmaking and scoring skills was seen making excellent centering passes well finishing passes him putting the puck past opposing goaltenders getting club high power play goals contrary his previous rep garpenlov also showed that despite his small size lbs was willing throw himself around when necessary albeit not very successful yet also still needs work his defense although improved tremendously throughout the season and was actually quite good penalty killer the end the season will major key the offense next year david bruce season acquired from louis expansion draft grade after banner when led the team power play goals and was third total scoring points games bruce was bothered virtually all this season with groin injury which kept him out the lineup for all games this season course difficult speculate how well would have done this season had not been affected the injury but the year old bruce was effective with man man short the sharks first season and was expected strong offensive leader this season well the injury appears serious which shame because otherwise may have much brighter future for now instead his future with the sharks next season appears clouded mark pederson season acquired trade with philadelphia for dave snuggerud grade difficult for understand the flyers decision unload pederson after very good offensive season last season points games but after riding the pine early the season pederson was summarily sent the sharks exchange the defensive minded snuggerud and finished with games combined with the flyers and the sharks was also limited injuries this season and this limited his production points but when healthy pederson appears impressive with good scoring touch good size and the willingness throw around although not considered physical forward and good speed also does not appear liability defense but the sharks probably have wait until next season see how much exactly pederson can john carter season acquired free agent from boston grade carter was definitely one the hardest workers the team and the hard work worked wonders times looked great ice however although did look great times the fact that received just points games for his efforts sign that there only much his hard work can and the sharks confirmed that sending him kansas city with about games left the season carter who will turn may always hussled but result was sometimes trapped too deep within the offensive zone while forechecking but was generally credit the defensive end but probably limited utility that capacity and did not impress offensively although was one the best sharks drawing penalties very unlikely back next season jean francois quintin season acquired from minnesota dispersal draft grade don understand why the sharks didn let quintin play any more than the games played this season was generally hard working and creating opportunities offensively and appeared age ready for regular nhl duty least for team like the sharks finishing with points those games while not being defensive liability shoulder injury training camp before the season limited quintin the team leading scorer exhibition games despite sitting out the final two just games with the sharks and the blades that season but looked impressive should solid contender for regular duty next season mark beaufait season acquired round pick supplemental draft grade after all star season kansas city beaufait got cup coffey with the sharks late the season when the blades knocked down playoff spot and the sharks decimated with injuries playing games and scoring goal for his only nhl point thus far despite small size lbs beaufait was not shy throw himself around when necessary and looked pretty good times although too early judge him based nhl games which played mostly left wing away from his center position northern michigan and kansas city jaroslav otevrel season acquired round pick entry draft grade like beaufait otevrel also played away from his normal position when was for his cup tea games midway through the season was generally very much defensive liability and did not show much offensively either although that may more indicative the lack ice time got those games may need another season work his defense but once his defense acceptable should ready michel picard season acquired trade with hartford for yvon corriveau grade the year old picard although perennially tore the minors seems close being out chances for some reason after being acquired the sharks but failing impress the management games scoring goals for his only points and spent most the rest the way kansas city was not particularly strong defensively and despite his offensive brilliance the minors has failed thus far score the nhl although has been given limited opportunities may the sharks bait the expansion draft dody wood season acquired round pick entry draft grade although perhaps shouldn give grade all have been accused knocking wood too much then probably surprise you that thoroughly unimpressed wood thus far although games small example was generally nonfactor offense was not particularly good defensively and took too many silly penalties losing many fights the process and gathering penalty minutes those games projecting game season not ready and needs least another season where can work his fighting skills nothing else his relatively small size lbs does not give much possibility that can survive this stage enforcer calgary flames macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe edmonton oilers for playoffs next year stay edmonton nelson claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	sharks review part defensemen finally got back with great thanks mark spiegel for saving and sending rob zettler season acquired from minnesota dispersal draft grade zettler gave the sharks every bit got this year unfortunately this still wasn enough make him any more than marginal nhler that works hard for sure but better than average defense and prone costly penalties and defensive lapses times while being basically offensive zero goal and assists games would hardpressed make the team next year david williams season acquired free agent from new jersey grade imo williams was the most valuable defenseman for the sharks playing combination good offense goals and assists games and good defense but playing the first part this season kansas city was good neither offensively nor defensively this year then appears that was fluke although improved towards the end the season was prone being out position defensively and did not demonstrate the playmaking skills that made him the team leading scorer among defensemen last year would also hardpressed make the team next year jayson more season acquired from montreal expansion draft grade after being touted the team top defensive prospects training camp before more had rather disappointing was not particularly good defensively and had just points games then proceeded improve his game massively this season becoming the team most reliable defenseman whom the team can count night and night out play steady defense and providing occasional but only occasional offensive flash offensively was even more disappointing than last year points games but his defense improved tremendously probably best the defensive part defense combination with offensive defenseman neil wilkinson season acquired from minnesota dispersal draft grade wilkinson was probably the team top defensive defenseman however partially because injuries was not the same this year missed games total due nagging knee and back injuries and seemed slowed even when playing then had often saved his defensive partners that they are there all but also had some solid games and can complete healthy can still force sandis ozolinsh season acquired round pick entry draft grade the time his injury december against the philadelphia flyers ozolinsh was well track imo the team mvp serious knee injury that game though forced him miss the rest the season games but still finished the team top scorer among defensemen points which course tells more about the lack offense the sharks had from their defensemen but also tells ozolinsh abilities the time was playing very good defense along with excellent offense was still susceptible called rookie mistakes but was probably the defenseman who made the least them the team rookie veteran can come back from his injuries ready star doug zmolek season acquired from minnesota dispersal draft grade zmolek had basically solid and durable year being one the only two sharks play all games the season was solid defense but after being billed offensive defenseman didn show points was also prone penalties and his penalty minutes was second the team however that was also indication that was fearly when facing tough physical opponents and was his best when playing physically but become fixture this league needs improve both offensively and defensively and cut down the number power plays gives opponents calgary flames macinnis for norris gary roberts for hart and smythe edmonton oilers for playoffs next year stay edmonton nelson claudius leland stanford edu rec sport hockey contact for the san jose sharks
rec.sport.hockey	ron francis article apr virginia edu mjr virginia edu matthew rush writes forgot ask this the highest points total francis has had season has ever had point season before either with the pens the whalers francis got his last full season with hartford agreement with your previous post think francis tremendous and generally underrated complete player would love have him here capitals uniform where would certainly the center even though pivonka also very good complete player who generally underrated francis impresses many ways ethical dale hunter tons heart and can attitude with lot different skills but none the cheap shots and few penalty minutes not mention nearly always coming through when important
rec.sport.hockey	expanding europe dusseldorf apr informatik muenchen voecking informatik muenchen writes article apr abo mlindroos finabo abo marcus lindroos inf writes pkortela apr hut pkortela snakemail hut writes deg has many german born forwards the team fact the majority players are german born deg had average spectator arena interesting one our german friends here robert told their forwards were all canadian germans perhaps somebody can sort this out for far know dusseldorf has only one canadian german forward player who was born canada but now has german passport benoit doucet became german marriing german and going play for germany the the other canada born forwards are peter john lee has british passport chris valentine dale dercatch steve gootas earl spry the moment there are only three german born forwards coming into mind bernd trunschka andreas brockmann ernst koepf you think dusseldorf fans would like their team joined the nhl have include koln well cologne you anglophiles make them happy volker marcu
rec.sport.hockey	goalie masks article apr dal brifre dal writes saw mask once that had drawings band aids presumably for every puck that goalie stopped with his face head can remember who was even was nhl see quite few ahl games here gerry cheevers used have mask that had stitches painted all over ken dryden mask classic archetype our time
rec.sport.hockey	islanders sux need say more
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains article wbm andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu anna matyas writes michael collingridge writes and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated wasn ron francis captain the whalers when was traded pittsburgh mom chris chelios was montreal captain with guy carbonneau when was traded chicago for denis savard and peter stastny was captain the quebec nordiques when was traded new jersey also mark messier was captain the edmonton oilers when was traded new york how about dale hawerchuk with winnipeg when was traded buffalo was captain too think should not forget wayne you know who when was traded was captain didn they strip wendel clark his capta incy toronto just some updates and thoughts cheer daniel piche lmc det design ericsson communications inc decarie blvd floor town mont royal quebec ext mail lmcdapi lmc ericsson memoid lmc lmcdapi cheers
rec.sport.hockey	does anybody have the schedule for games sunday apr hello hockey fans bonjour tout monde well salt lake city this past sunday the local abc station decided not televise the hockey games directrous programme est tete merde anyway have satellite dish and few friends from hockey have invited themselves over watch the games this coming sunday apr and can not find correct game times for the calgary game have times showing everything from mdt mdt not even sure what games are going played this coming sunday now that abc has mucked the schedule think should able pull three games and mdt off the dish but not sure anybody has schedule pleas emial you can see have telent get rec sport hockey and sometimes difficult get link thanks advance merci avance anglais francais accord roland behunin behunin oodis mil behunin oodis hill mil roland
rec.sport.hockey	wings take game one article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes qvos msuinfo msu edu vergolin euler lbs msu edu david vergolini writes the detroit red wings put lot doubter ice tonight with washing the toronto maple leafs all you toronto fans have now seen the power the mighty red wing offense toronto defense match for the wing offense for the defense probert kennedey and primeau came out did they move probert back defense why did see him parking his ass front potvin all night somebody going have discipline probert the leafs want win the series perhaps fresh clark should hit the ice the end long probert shift and straigten him out for while during the regular season when the intensity down not many teams have forwards who will continually and park themselves front the opposing teams net and the inadequacy the leafs defense this regard thus didn matter however the playoffs are different story every good team going have players who are going become potted plants front potvin and the leafs relatively unphysical defensive core will finally exposed weak inept hard work will long way during the regular season almost points and the leafs deserve credit for that but the playoffs talent matters because everyone begins working hard gerald
rec.sport.hockey	don cherry coach corner summary april article yfoz wboq hyq andrew cmu edu james murawski jjm andrew cmu edu writes apr don cherry coach corner user allan sullivan ualber writes next clip was shown from earlier episode which don was proclaiming doug gilmour the best player not only the nhl but the world what about players like lemieux don said that gilmour was the best player not designated point getter its not like baseball where you have designatted hitter who can score runs but can play defense gilmour good two way player this clip was shown local news pittsburgh last night kdka complete with animated sarcasm the sportscaster the second time cherry has been shown local pittsburgh news the last couple weeks both times was blasting lemieux his designated point getter remarks were not only meant for lemieux but for gretzky bure etc etc and made those particular remarks last december before lemieux was diagnosed with hodgkin and the leafs started their second half roll and before gilmour great season was being recognized many people gerald
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage article cfoy jndv andrew cmu edu anna matyas andrew cmu edu writes thorne good and always been fan clement but miss mike emrick boyfriend who not hockey fan even looked one point and said these guys are pretty good announcers this the same guy who said that rick tocchet looks like charles bronson imho clement although has pleasant personality aggravatingly pleasant opinion terrible analyst because almost alway wrong the prototypical example being new jersey first goal last sunday grew with dick irvin doing color beside danny gallivan knew did irvin dick irvin was friend mine bill clement you aren any dick irvin long the teams involved not include the national team the new york rangers take john davidson over bill clement any day gerald
rec.sport.hockey	pens playoff radio coverage was radio stations article sfjv cmu edu lli cmu edu lori iannamico wrote according this morning post gazette the pens will carried kdka radio unless the pirates are playing when the pirates play the games will carried wdve wdve will carry games starting with tonight game fact after this season kdka will longer the flagship station for the pens the penguins and kbl have struck new deal regarding the and radio rights the games seems more than likely that wdve will the flagship radio station next season kbl will carry games with the games simulcast kdka the remaining games well some the early round playoff games will available subscription only receive the games you have pay one time hook fee and then monthly fee dollars also under the new deal there will longer radio simulcasts there will broadcast team and radio broadcast team word who the announcers will mike lange and paul steigerwald are both under contract with kdka but their contracts expire the end this season kbl president bill craig said like hire lange and steigerwald lori contact for the penguins lli cmu edu nooooooooooooooooo who the mindscheme behind this one ted simmons the saying goes ain broke don fix miles from home during the school year and will never able pick dve least now can sort make out what mike and steigy say through all the static kdka this just may enough reason for transfer duquesne and live home who going announce dve anyway paulson and krenn just kidding george
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns what are the leafs leaf supporter and say the leafs are going down four unless there nothing short miracle stroke genenius hits pat burns you were pat burns what would you living the bay area not get enough leaf coverage pull something out the bag would appreciate comments the leaf detroit line match ups but here the basic idea andreychuck and borchevsky have business playing against the wings they are too small the key any leafs success will have clark the only centre who can have any presence within stick lengths the slot where the hell anderson anderson can days past get under peoples skin put little more bluntly anderson has asshole used good need him now perhaps perhaps the leafs can shut down detroit second line was dissappointed see shepard and yserbeart flying last night these guys are the swing players for the wings last year they did major choke the playoffs and were blame for the quick exit the wings this has happen again clark anderson gilmour should able out hustle this line anderson should nasty yserbeart clark should bang the hell out sheppard score gilmour score suggestions clarke anderson gilmour sheppard yserbeart andreychuck borchevsy detroit checking line toronto checking line yzerman fedorov probert pray lots suggested would bench andreychuck and borchevsky stir things and through monkey wrench into detroits game plan however the detroit coaching would dumb enough play their checking line against these finesse players well then let them play potvin can not faulted the goals keep him van hellamond can not faulted for the leafs demise either the wings defense shut down the leafs especially the slot hope pat burns realizes that his team was out hit out skated and out coached monday night this was not loss because poor goaltending officiating this calls for drastic measures tee off next monday jake leafs
rec.sport.hockey	radio stations article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes the pittsburgh penguins games used broadcast kdka but don know whether they will pre empted baseball and moved another station not you can try those the local baseball teams aren playing the same time anyway randy the pens are now being broadcast wdve carol
rec.sport.hockey	bowman whining already should have guessed time for the annual pittsburgh penguins whine thon bowman was complaning about cheap shots the devils game sorry bowman you great coach but those cheap shots were nothing compared what going come also guess you were only able notice the cheap shots made the guys not white amazing what those black and gold colored glasses will nice dive that high stick mario everyone knew was high stick you could have stayed your feet and saved your diving talent for later just stirring bit ralph
rec.sport.hockey	cbc game choices was cbc previous article uwovax uwo says article boora sfu boora kits sfu the godfather writes cbc had great chance for some double headers toronto detroit and vancouver winnipeg but today they said that the east gets the leafs and the west get the vancouver game thought that they would show them both totally too vancouver winnipeg great west coast hockey fast paced and loads talent what seen far hardly entertaining with the exception the odd shift every now then course missed calgary pitts jersey because the pinheads cbc figure everyone here ontario cares for the leafs the maple leafs and nothing but the leafs half southern ontario people who moved from out west but the good folks toronto couldn care less they should show the doubleheader heck the second game would have two canadian teams and let those desperate for news watch the national newsworld but they don why because canada ends windsor don cha know grrrrr amen now have get updates every mins cnn headline news for crying out loud that cheaper than what phone calls there must better system one ring adams linden scores two rings bure rushes the ice scores etc etc freenet carleton rachel holme
rec.sport.hockey	matt militzok please read sorry everyone for wasting space matt the other day you posted that you were doing mailing list playoff stats lost your address please put that list thanks george
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win article ragraca vela acs oakland edu ragraca vela acs oakland edu randy graca writes golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes bryan murray has done very little yzerman fedorov cheveldae chaisson the whole russian strategy was product the previous murray has made couple decent trades that about that would hardly rank him the best there are many teams the nhl who have taken liking russian players the whole russian strategy not specific detroit devellano who was before murray what the previous also did was trade away several players who have gone well with other teams most notably memory murray craven who had few very good years with philly after leaving here also not the volume trades that will necessarily improve team but the quality them trading adam oates for bernie federko was just plain stupid even federko used great player one time most murray trades have worked significantly the wings advantage with those that didn being soured mainly injury the players involved such troy crowder who suffered back problems from which never really recovered devallano went earlier and more extensively the russian strategy than anyone else and was the first waste high draft choices young russians devallano would still but succombed demers pleading make the oates federko trade which the deal that sealed his fate murray has made some decent trades doubt but these are more due the stupidity cheapness other teams than brilliance his part washington was too cheap pay ciccarelli they essentially gave him away and carson was really big anchor the team and was able sucker rookie give him paul coffey for deadweight detroit still fails this year because was one defenseman short then will have wasted opportunity because manson was available and was unable pull the trigger his judgement that has enough with what got yzerman doesn have that many more years his prime gerald
rec.sport.hockey	murray was wings will win article apr venus lerc nasa gov smorris venus lerc nasa gov ron morris writes gerald murray wasn responsible for primeau although not ready admit that horrible pick they hired him after the draft which has never made sense his first pick was lapointe don think primeau necessarily bad pick was just trying locate the beginning murray decisions slowness trading carson has delayed primeau development and you have wait longer for big players often and primeau can very good player without being point game player especially team that has yzerman and fedorov primeau becomes joel otto and gets goals season and plays mean will have been extremely good pick gerald
rec.sport.hockey	panther president article cybernet cse fau edu jimg cybernet cse fau edu jim gorycki writes little bio from sun sentinel torrey the architect four consecutive stanley cup champions persident and general manager the new york islanders throughout his years the nhl bill torrey bow ties have become much signature andre agassi hair the panthers will introduce uniform insignia and ticket price information early next month the meantime huizenga leaves the day day operation the hands torrey and bob clarke the and the san jose sharks and ottawa senators are each their second already willing wager that both the sharks and senators will probably see their and perhaps their before see the panthers second gerald
rec.sport.hockey	results april article access digex net steveg cadkey com steve gallichio writes gerald olchowy golchowy alchemy chem utoronto writes podein interesting case because was eligible play cape breton the ahl playoffs like kovalev zubov and andersson obviously sather and pocklington are not the total scrooges everyone makes them out certainly this case they massively outclassed paramount and the new york rangers what the policy regarding players and the minor league playoffs versus know that the rangers are holding back kovalev zubov and andersson for binghamton but also know that the whalers wanted michael nylander play for springfield while nylander wanted play for sweden the whalers allowed the nhl decide and the nhl chose the wcs how does this differ from the rangers and oilers did the whalers have through the league could they have forced nylander play springfield obviously ultimately the teams choice the nhl would obviously prefer not annoy the european hockey federations but the nhl right now cannot force nhl teams free their players the whalers probably did this way not annoy their farm team affiliate gerald
rec.sport.hockey	nords habs was robbed deepak chhabra dchhabra stpl ists wrote speaking great players man man can quebec skate haven seen team potent the rush long time watching them break out their zone especially sundin treat watch they remind the red army dchhabra stpl ists pissed off habs fan yeah the nords look like they going good but excuse the bias have you ever watched the pens rush don answer everyone has seen this footage near the end the season when the pens played the nords was like watching younger double the pens the nords looked good right the point when they lost ravi shah shah pitt edu sica ideas portara approx translation music will bring ideas siempre continuara and will continue forever sonido electro nico electronic sound decibel sinte tico musique non stop synthetic decibel kraftwerk
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn article sclk cbnewsh att com seth cbnewsh att com peter clark writes what did you leave the room each the times they said that there were other night baseball games every break they took back the studio mentioned followed gonna show you hockey instead wife and are hoping for rain every baseball game they have feed for tommorrow night point glad they showed hockey but baseball was available anywhere else you can bet you would watched baseball last night pete clark know that there wasn other games the schedule but espn sometimes shows classic games from previous season fill the time slot joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn with everyone bitching about the hockey coverage espn its almost like the detroit toronto game was not televised last nite was just thankful see hockey night that wasn supposed carried thanks espn matter why they televised the game craig
rec.sport.hockey	remarks president clinton ncaa division champion hockey team here press release from the white house remarks president clinton ncaa division champion hockey team april following national desk contact white house office the press secretary washington april following transcript remarks president clinton the university maine black bears ncaa division hockey champions the rose garden edt the president good morning ladies and gentlemen honor for welcome the university maine black bears the winner the ncaa division hockey national championship the rose garden and the white house understand from senator mitchell that this the first team from the university maine every win national championship and glad have them here inspired not only how the team pulled together win the championship but how the entire state pulled together cheer them onto victory coming from state that also relatively small size but also filled with pride and tradition and community can understand how the people maine must feel about the black bears our state people are still talking about the time won the orange bowl over the number one ranked football team and that was back sure that years from now the people maine will proud this team they are today you know state football slightly more popular sport than hockey don have lot ice laughter but after spending three months getting banged around this town can understand little more about hockey than did before came here hockey tough game hard hitting sport does have one virtue though there penalty for delay game wish had that rule the senate laughter government hockey leadership important the united states senate our team has great captain the majority leader and the senior senator from maine george mitchell junior senator cohen looks young can imagine laughter actually bitter about senator cohen because looks much younger than your hockey team the captain jim montgomery has done great job scored the winning goal late the championship game leading you come from behind victory something else know little bit about sport brings out the best individuals and teams and communities share the pride that senator mitchell and senator cohen and congressman andrews and all the people maine must feel for the black bears who have shown all how play team how bring out the best one another and how come from behind think important ask young people from around america who have achieved outstanding things working together come here the white house recognized and appreciated their country remember that those kinds values and those kinds virtues need ingrained all for all our lives now have another role model and glad have them here today applause the president presented with team jersey applause the president that great love beautiful applause the president presented with autographed stick the president thank you that great applause president did you authorize the move waco this morning sir the president was aware think the attorney general made the decision and think should refer all questions her and the fbi did you have any instructions for her how should executed the president they made the tactical decisions that was their judgment the fbi this raid the president and will want refer you talk the attorney general and the fbi knew was going done but the decisions were entirely theirs all the tactical decisions what did you and senator mitchell talk about this morning any chance for that stimulus package the president senator mitchell ought pay quarter laughter was there laughter senator mitchell you have pay that quarter the president was ready laughter senator mitchell worth quarter any day any chance for your bill sir the president talked about what was going happen this week the senate and about what other meetings going have for the rest the week only had about five minutes talk and agreed get back together later around noon and talk some more senator dole said over the weekend that your compromise compromise the president well know did but look senator dole and lot the other republicans now the senate voted for the same kind thing for ronald reagan and our research indicates that majority them over time voted for total emergency spending measures totalling over billion when reagan and bush were president those administrations and many those purposes were not nearly worthy putting the american people back work don want back and revisit every one but you can you can look the research there this position they taking not credible have very tough five year deficit reduction plan all these costs are covered during that time and then some and the very people that are saying this has all got paid for don have much history which base their position they got years vote for stimulus measures this kind that had very little with putting the american people back work think got chance work out and hopeful see what happens today and tomorrow feeling pretty good about the press thank you end edt canada remote systems toronto ontario
rec.sport.hockey	wirtz weenie article wfozwmi kye andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu robert angelo pleshar writes other news the penguins announced yesterday that they will have fewer broadcast games and will have games some sort subscription pay per view system yuck this incorrect this year the pens had games free and games ppv next year they will have games free and subscription basis you actually get more free game than last year and there will more radio only games its good deal last year everybody bitched about baldwin breaking the team now goes out his way keep the nucleus this team together and that takes money comes with creative way generate more revenue can afford this team and people bitch some more everybody wants something for nothing dean dean falcione badges what badges using jrmst permission don need stinkin the owner joe mcdonald badges
rec.sport.hockey	abc coverage joseph stiehm joe pitt edu wrote have one complaint for the cameramen doing the jersey pitt series show the shots not the hits more than one occassion the camera zoomed check along the boards while the puck was the slot they panned back show the rebound maybe mom camera people were little more experienced joseph stiehm exactly that biggest complaint about the coverage far follow that damn puck ravi shah shah pitt edu sica ideas portara approx translation music will bring ideas siempre continuara and will continue forever sonido electro nico electronic sound decibel sinte tico musique non stop synthetic decibel kraftwerk
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns article chb jethro corp sun com jake rambler eng sun com writes what are the leafs leaf supporter and say the leafs are going down four unless there nothing short miracle stroke genenius hits pat burns you were pat burns what would you pray for the wings become lazy and overconfident the wings can only lose the series toronto cannot win take away doug gilmour and the leafs are old tampa bay the leafs deserve lot credit for their diligent effort during the regular season but detroit puts reasonable effort this not contest gerald
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns article chb jethro corp sun com jake rambler eng sun com jason cockroft writes suggestions clarke anderson gilmour sheppard yserbeart andreychuck borchevsy detroit checking line toronto checking line yzerman fedorov probert pray lots well wings fan and think the first thing that you should get the opponent line combinations correct before you try match anyone with them there yzerman fedorov probert line except for maybe powerplay these three players usually play three different lines which would mean that toronto checking line would have pull triple shift the wings lines usually look like this gallant yzerman ciccarelli kozlov fedorov drake kennedy burr probert ysebaert primeau sheppard the way start praying laurie marshall wayne state university detroit michigan wings
rec.sport.hockey	bay area media wings leafs coverage maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes dreier apr durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu roland dreier writes the san francisco bay area media reporting tonight that the detroit red wings beat the toronto maple leafs can someone who not part the media conspiracy against the leafs tell how the game really went expecting win for the leafs shutout for potvin hat trick for andreychuk and goal and assists for gilmour the leafs really lost how many penalties did whichever biased ref was the game have call against the leafs let the red wings win yes california did the san francisco bay area media report that joe montana rumoured the leading candidate replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston apparently montana not only coveted for his winning attitude but playing coach will expected quarterback the powerplay good comeback rog your quick wit and intelligence continues amaze everyone john franjione department chemical engineering university colorado boulder franjion spot colorado edu
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns apr alchemy chem utoronto golchowy alchemy chem utoronto gerald olchowy writes pray for the wings become lazy and overconfident the wings can only lose the series toronto cannot win take away doug gilmour and the leafs are old tampa bay right gerald and take away bob probert and the wings are dead octopuses the leafs deserve lot credit for their diligent effort during the regular season but detroit puts reasonable effort this not contest let wait for the body get cold before start with the eulogies they have only lost one game the game was detroit after all and potvin did not have his best evening nobody that saw thought that the leafs would sweep the wings looks like might six the leafs will take the wings home advantage away the next game cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time
rec.sport.hockey	goalie masks article apr newshub ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes and give fuhr new one honourable mention although haven seen closely yet looked good from distance this the new buffalo one the second since been with the sabres recall price tag over just for the paint job that mask and total price almost ouch valerie hammerl birtday event when friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together set your dessert fire then acscvjh ubms buffalo edu laugh and sing while you frantically try pwwpz ubvms buffalo edu blow out
rec.sport.hockey	octopus detroit article apr news clarkson edu farenebt logic camp clarkson edu droopy writes fact the tradition has been passed down their affiliate adirondack last finals legged creature was hurled onto the frozen pond and landed right the feet ref lance roberts may have been passed toronto but even seen octopus the aud last year bruins sabres game knew all about the detroit version but seeing the aud was bit puzzling valerie hammerl birtday event when friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together set your dessert fire then acscvjh ubms buffalo edu laugh and sing while you frantically try pwwpz ubvms buffalo edu blow out
rec.sport.hockey	pens playoff radio coverage was radio stations article bgsu edu andy bgsu edu george pavlic writes nooooooooooooooooo who the mindscheme behind this one ted simmons the saying goes ain broke don fix miles from home during the school year and will never able pick dve least now can sort make out what mike and steigy say through all the static kdka this just may enough reason for transfer duquesne and live home who going announce dve anyway paulson and krenn just kidding george don kid around they just might listen kevin stamber purdue university waiting hear free bird the new penguins theme
rec.sport.hockey	list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday kevin stamber purdue university and phil kirzyc the kielbasa kid will roam the arena for interviews
rec.sport.hockey	abc announcers espn lack coverage was atlanta article apr newshub ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes here the solution your problem move canada yesterday was able watch four games the pitt abc cal cbc buff bos tsn and fox and mon que cbc think that each series goes its max could watching hockey playoffs for some odd consecutive nights haven counted that pure guess the worst thing that this exactly what did last year had the rangers msg and the two different games scny and sca the same time yes rather have cover just for the amount coverage btw those abc commentaters were great was quite impressed they seemed know that their audience wasn likely well schooled hockey lore and they did excellent job they were quite impartial also imo think thorne earns his money the best part that the same way when earning his from sportschannel the devils announcer unbiased goes orgasmic for goals despite which team scores and even more excited possible for great saves did good job explaining certain things non hockey types without offending those who follow the sport unlike nbc clowns for the asg jpc playoff time flame bait don any you pittsburgh fans tell how mike lang better maybe were little spontaneous rather than reading rehearsed lines having nothing with hockey would better john curcio bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor
rec.sport.hockey	list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday article spec euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu kevin stamber writes kevin stamber purdue university and phil kirzyc the kielbasa kid will roam the arena for interviews woops this rec sport hockey not rec sport golf hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting steve steve lee university western ontario london canada lee obelix gaul csd uwo
rec.sport.hockey	hockey hispanic market article edu icop csa edu antonio pera writes article saross starbase spd louisville edu saross starbase spd louisville edu stacey ross writes odin corp sgi com rickc wrigley corp sgi com richard casares writes you have hard time selling any sport community that can play account availability financial reasons hockey pretty much sport for the white and well off what this crap only interested intelligent discussion you can answer question just say can anyone else answer the ques not really crap you know only half crap from what understand very expensive play hockey south the border actually not that cheap hear either though once you have all the equipement not more than year actually haven played about years could off bit the states where ice time considerably more expensive can cost over thousand year compare this baseball and you see that hockey sport for the well and this brings the fact that the well the are majority white btw what was the original question think has with the hispanic communtiy and playing hockey cheers ingo sunee uwaterloo the more violent the body iwweigel descartes uwaterloo contact the sports you ingo electrical watstar uwaterloo watch the lower your class iwweigele electrical watstar uwaterloo paul fussell the university waterloo had opinion this probably wouldn
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains article apr exu ericsson lmcdapi noah ericsson writes article wbm andrew cmu edu andrew cmu edu anna matyas writes michael collingridge writes and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated wasn ron francis captain the whalers when was traded pittsburgh mom chris chelios was montreal captain with guy carbonneau when was traded chicago for denis savard and peter stastny was captain the quebec nordiques when was traded new jersey also mark messier was captain the edmonton oilers when was traded new york how about dale hawerchuk with winnipeg when was traded buffalo was captain too think should not forget wayne you know who when was traded was captain didn they strip wendel clark his captaincy toronto buffalo seems have started tradition trading its captains pat lafontaine was awarded the captaincy when mike ramsey was forced give ramsey now penguin ramsey inherited from mike foligno who now leaf turn had inherited from lindy ruff who went forget where ruff had from perreault who retired guess that where the streak started did after all danny gare was captain before him and went detroit jim scoenfeld gerry meehan and floyd smith are the others reverse order last first was bit young the time not sure the fate schoenfeld but ultimately went detroit and boston meehan went vancouver atlanta and washington smith seems have hung his skates after buffalo but don know the captaincy was removed before after that how many games played for buffalo this actually getting fascinating captaincy buffalo sure sign you traded almost unless you franchise player valerie hammerl birtday event when friends get hammerl acsu buffalo edu together set your dessert fire then acscvjh ubms buffalo edu laugh and sing while you frantically try pwwpz ubvms buffalo edu blow out
rec.sport.hockey	bay area media wings leafs coverage article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes dreier apr durban berkeley edu dreier durban berkeley edu roland dreier writes the san francisco bay area media reporting tonight that the detroit red wings beat the toronto maple leafs can someone who not part the media conspiracy against the leafs tell how the game really went expecting win for the leafs shutout for potvin hat trick for andreychuk and goal and assists for gilmour the leafs really lost how many penalties did whichever biased ref was the game have call against the leafs let the red wings win yes california did the san francisco bay area media report that joe montana rumoured the leading candidate replace fired san jose sharks coach george kingston apparently montana not only coveted for his winning attitude but playing coach will expected quarterback the powerplay close roger but banana avocado artichoke geracie the murky news said kingston will the new ers quarterback still trying determine kidding not happen pound down enuff pints sometime this week back and check what stooper idiot purdy said his column that ought worth few leafs mean laughs really depressed read the comicle mark just say mark spiegel spiegel lmsc lockheed com cow palace epicenter
rec.sport.hockey	nhl team captains and while are the subject has captain ever been traded resigned been striped his title during the season any other team captain trivia would appreciated mike foligno was captain the buffalo sabres when was traded toronto stephen legge slegge kean ucs mun
rec.sport.hockey	nhl playoff leaders april playoff leaders april player team pts pim lemieux pit juneau bos noonan chi mogilny buf neely bos brown stl jagr pit oates bos carson hunter was stevens cullen tor hull stl khristich was linden van racine det shanahan stl sydor yzerman det bure van coffey det drake det emerson stl courtnall van johansson was lapointe que niedermayer ramsey pit sandstrom smehlik buf stevens pit adams van barr bellows mon burr det chiasson det craven van dahlquist cal dionne mon felsner stl ferraro nyi francis pit gilmour tor hannan buf heinze bos howe det huddy king win lafontaine buf lefebvre tor mcsorley millen ronning van rucinsky que sakic que sheppard det steen win suter cal sweeney buf tipett pit yawney cal young que barnes win borschevsky tor brunet mon chelios chi ciccarelli det clark tor desjardins mon dipietro mon donnelly driver duchesne que ellett tor elynuik was flatley nyi fleury cal gallant det gill tor granato gretzky guerin hawerchuk buf holik housley win janney stl brown chi khmylev buf krygier was larmer chi macinnis cal matteau chi mceachern pit mclean van mcrae stl mullen pit muller mon murphy pit murzyn van otto cal pearson tor pivonka was primeau det probert det reichel cal ricci que robitaille roenick chi samuelsson pit semak shannon win shuchuk sundin que sutter chi taylor tocchet pit vaske nyi maurice richard
rec.sport.hockey	leafs versus wings how long can the leafs play short handed and still expected score they did some fine penely killing the first men down for couple minutes one point but they just couldn keep they spent virtually the entire game either short handed just coming off penelty soon they get grouped they penalized again sheesh like gilmour said after the you can calling every little push shove game like that and you going you have for both teams pearson one four favorite leafs played like bonehead saw him personally screw least good scoring opportunities and then got that bonehead minute major high sticking penalty cullen has gotten stronger since his return from injury hand full games ago and played good game the other players his line can smarten that line should okay clark got get tough got intimidate and for the net send clark the left wing over the blue line couple times his patented wrist shot will put some numbers the board and pearson heck maybe should benched hate repeat grapes but where the heck was foligno zezel can all the checking himself and get macllwain the move need some speed out there keep potvin net did okay considering although like said couple weeks ago potvin messed couple games the ahl playoffs last year can easily again prediction last week was toronto that the games det wins will blow outs and the game tor wins will close still stand that don fret leafs fans order win the other team has win burns going make some magic mix some lines match the wings line per line have his team checking hard and never let them get out numbered their own end the leafs will win wednesday night and will take their home games probably the first one stephen leaf legge slegge kean ucs mun
rec.sport.hockey	octopus during the detroit game mon night there were octopus thrown the ice what the meaning symbolism here they used throw fish the ice here spokane afew years ago never knew where this came from
rec.sport.hockey	nhlpa poll partial stats results article ofnmao kyd andrew cmu edu young soo che andrew cmu edu writes all these people who send their polls should take closer look njd they are very deep team with two very capable goalies and excellent forwards and defensemen shooter richer all around all todd chef stasny master thousand dishes power play kevin todd oiler and has been one for months how closely you follow the devils anyway jeez alan
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils article lrw rpi edu wangr vccsouth its rpi edu rex wang writes are people here stupid what tie breaker cause they have have the same record how can people sooooo stuppid put win first the list for tie breaker tie breaker how can there different record man thought people this net are good with hockey might not great math but tell how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can believe people actually put win first tie breaker then allow enlighten you rex you see there thing called tie tie worth one point know know you not good math but bear with win worth two points getting two ties the same getting one win your team played two games won one and lost one you have two points team played two games and tied them both also have two points tied the standings even though our records are different perhaps you should learn something about hockey before posting again starting sound like roger what alan
rec.sport.hockey	wings will win gballent hudson uvic greg ballentine writes all this fine never said that murray was bad merely said that isn the best hockey even contender for that honor murray great you claim the wings would have won the stanley cup now probably more than once was great you claim think you missed one points there takes more than great win stanley cup even once some the guys the list you gave earlier never won one agree that you and could probably argue back and forth for days avail about who the best hockey that matter opinion and who say opinion any better than yours yours than mine but the point original original post not well stated was that murray has the abilities but not the coaching abilities which leads below and was poor coach you claim would have been intelligent enough hire the coach push the team the next level success think this point there personal emotional element involved here which transcends murray logical thought outsiders fine for say should hire different coach fact has talked about doing the past but the press here detroit least has built this business about murray never getting past the second round the playoffs coach that think has taken upon himself prove the world that capable coaching team past the second round needs the papers say get that monkey off his back becomes matter not intelligence but pride foolish let pride stand the way sound logic perhaps but all little that way from time time think eventually step down from behind the bench and concentrate his duties and the team will improve result think his coaching duties take away time might have otherwise spent work that sense once steps down coach see how good really but murray average unspectacular nhl coach and pretty good none this true anyway may not agree with everything you said but been fun discussing with you gregmeister randy
rec.sport.hockey	schedule article apr news columbia edu gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare writes can believe that espn making sportschannel america look good but only philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts and local baseball pre empted the nhl playoffs thus far into this playoff season espn abc has given more hockey days game than sportschannel did games people want hockey they should watch hockey bet the ratings for hockey sunday abc went into the toilet next week there will far fewer abc affiliates with hockey someone this thread said that wouldn watch the games even they were and this regular contributor xenophobes north border needn fear the americanization our game because americans will never figure out how market hockey here support your team support your game mike eisler mre eng sun com not only are they leafs the best team but their fans are even more intelligent and insightful than pittsburgh their players are mighty bright too mean really was going get his wallet back right jan brittenson leaf pen woofers rec sport hockey
rec.sport.hockey	nords habs was robbed article apr newshub ists dchhabra stpl ists deepak chhabra writes article apr mcgill jbe jbe musicb mcgill writes aargh paul stewart the worst and most biased ref presently the nhl called total penalties the habs and one the nordiques the nords penalty came stewart being nordique himself was looking call penalties the habs while letting the nords get away with murder was robbed patrick roy the reason the game was lost and ron hextall the reason quebec won everybody said would come down goaltending that goaltending was the key etc etc well the key doesn quite fit you montreal don buy this all roy was the reason the game was tied and that would not have been the case had dionne kept his cool hextall gave very questionable goals himself both dionne and bellows shots were misplayed hextall but just because his gaffes were early the game one seems care roy stood his head for the first minutes the game when the nords were rushing from end end kamensky mini break after the tying goal and the first shot young were both excellent chances stopped roy roy outplayed hextall for most the game but roy becomes the villain and hextall the hero because roy team didn make full use their opportunities hextall the other hand had lot lucky bounces played very well but the haller shot off the post the rebound bouncing over bellows stick the brunet breakaway the chances for leclair all those opportunities were not finished off montreal and cost them hextall wasn particularly brilliant those plays blaming stewart just excuse avoid facing the fact that roy allowed what was one the worst goals could possibly allow even saw the whole shot dammit sure excuse but was just the goal the timing stank but against explosive team like quebec they gave them opportunity too many with powerplay that was totally unnecessary montreal played solid game although they still don know how clear traffic front the net the loss schneider will hurt even more disagree roy played well because wasn screened the whole night the defense for the time this season played remarkably keeping sakic nolan and sundin out the slot most the night normally would say that any team that blows goal lead with less than five let alone two minutes regulation time playoff game especially needs smacked upside their collective heads but don think this was team loss although keane should have been able clear the zone just prior the first quebec goal this most certainly was team loss leclair missed his opportunities did bellows and brunet dionne took bad penalty damphousse and lebeau were silent carbonneau and savard were step behind all night roy gave the bad goal roy means can singled out for this loss roy paid big money play looked like player industrial league sakic shot and hextall didn dionne goal please roy paid big money because that his value compared other goalies and still the top when you consider the defense lack one that played front him for most the season demers should start racicot the next game not that should let the damn team read the papers for the next day two and maybe this article possible the montreal media the quickest heap praise and then hurl derogatory comments against the habs they are better than uninformed fans why should they read the papers they played minutes burnsian hockey shut down quebec all they need tonight and for the rest the series the extra red light face quebec rubbish that guaranteed way end the series who would taught lesson this the fans the media and racicot perhaps certainly not the rest the team didn think the wrap around was bad the second goal also didn think scott young should have gotten around the defender can remember who the first place but you are correct shouldn have gone regardless you mean the goal should never have gone because there should never have been then agree but the goal itself was great piece work young roy had both the near and far posts covered but young flipped the puck under roy arm wrapped around the net not bad goal all yaska yaska eecg toronto edu dept electrical computer engineering sankar university toronto toronto canada
rec.sport.hockey	matt militzok please read article bgsu edu andy bgsu edu george pavlic wrote sorry everyone for wasting space matt the other day you posted that you were doing mailing list playoff stats lost your address please put that list thanks george sorry again guess you need address mailserver bgsu edu
rec.sport.hockey	list tee times metropolitan toronto golf courses for monday lee gaul csd uwo steve lee writes article spec euc noose ecn purdue edu stamber rainbow ecn purdue edu kevin stamber writes woops this rec sport hockey not rec sport golf hope you check the newsgroup header next time before posting steve lee university western ontario london canada lee obelix gaul csd uwo actually steve think was refering the leafs and when they can expected hit the greens acadia axemen ciau champions donald smith dragon acadiau
rec.sport.hockey	bay area media wings leafs coverage yeah the news true the leafs lost the wings wish could say seen the whole game but husband wanted watch young guns another channel sometime between the first time tuned and saw the leafs tie and the next time tuned and heard the score was something happened please woofing from red wings fans they third favourite team and they make past the leafs wish them luck for potvin well was his fist playoff game susan carroll clark who likes anyone doug gilmour plays for
rec.sport.hockey	sharks kingston fired article apr adobe com snichols adobe com sherri nichols writes article apr leland stanford edu terry garfield stanford edu terry wong writes think that jack ferreira firing eventually led kingston firing you mention consistency vision think the sharks lost that with the loss ferreira there has never been headed that has ever worked you need one person making the personnel decisions the top not management committee the conventional wisdom from around the league that ferreira would have made the moves that would have fielded better product the ice how exactly would ferreira accomplished this the three headed ship has taken lot heat but nobody explained how things would have been any different had ferreira still been there would ferreira have made more trades who would have had traded would have made fewer trades who should not have been traded think the three headed guiding principle was keep veterans favor youngsters only they offered significant advantage the end last season the contracts several veterans with somewhat maginal contributions fenton bozek anderson and couple others can remember were bought out the idea was that youngsters could play almost well and had the potential improve where these older guys did not and they traded mullen because wanted not because wasn good enough but think they were bit too optimistic thinking they could make for his contributions example from this season skriko was brought trial basis but not kept because his age thought was decent contributor worth keeping around the youth movement has its advantages look gaudreau who might still more veterans had been kept around but you have find the right balance steve cole steve sep stanford edu apple sep steve department geophysics stanford university stanford
rec.sport.hockey	tie breaker isles and devils dir article apr ramsey laurentian maynard ramsey laurentian roger maynard writes lrw rpi edu wangr vccsouth its rpi edu rex wang writes might not great math but tell how can two teams ahve the same points with different record man retard can believe people actually put win first tie breaker well don see any smileys here trying figure out the poster dog wordprocessor couldn neither both are smarter than this might not great math cordially always maynard ramsey laurentian many morons and little time roger lecture someone not using smileys what sweet hipocracy koz lets caps
rec.sport.hockey	usenet playoff hockey pool game standings here are the standings after game each the divisional semi finals hey look who try post the standings after each game every two days managed recover the email lost saturday night all missing mail that arrived between early saturday morning and sunday afternoon many people sent their teams you may have received two replies back from your team name not this list please resend your team and see what can any kind proof you sent the weekend will help your case seriously this only fun pool and trust each person honest again sorry for any inconvenience and hope the pool still fun for you andrew usenet hockey playoff draft standings posn team pts rem last posn sneddon scorers the borg dave wessels bruce rented mules great expectations hurricane andrew jerky boys homesick hawaiian give you money monday einstien punk band zipper heads tapio repo detroit homeboy the dead ducks mike burger test department team elvis craig team skate die debbie bowles fuzzfaces galore suds the campi machine zachmans wingers sean forbes threepeat flamming senators team awesome bury purdue ricks pens flyers seppo kemppainen paige faults weenies chris roney rednecks from hockey hell dog hog mind sweepers teem kanada northern lights fugazi delaware destroyers mopar muscle men lance hill the boston bruins garryola oakville brothers sam his dogs cluster buster jan stein frank little wankers milton keynes kings the promise land rangers destiny new zealand leafs loaded weapons bloom county all stars robarts research rebels tiger chung lees goddess fermentation make beliefs rob del mundo heikki salmi the underwriters muller walker controversy warriors bjorkloven norway killerwhales holsteins sfb buffalo soldiers lemon pepper grizzly bears frack attack houdini magicians the rangers rangers blow dave hiebert yan loke canadian gladiators littlest giants alf all stars the ice kickers beer makes expert force creosote the goobmeister the mulberry maulers rev rebels bosse zippety doodah kramer george and jerry dehradun maawalis sludge rock sock ems brians bloodletters grant marven arctic circles all the kane men trevor triumph mark and steve dreaming again goaldingers bjoern leaguen habs playing golf shigella new jersey rob steves superstars big bay bombers doug bowles neural netters lippe lets pandas les raisins daves knee jerk picks monica loke jason team reneb schott shooters gilles carmel lewey lakers smithw east city jokers daryl turner doug mraz skriko wolves icemachine lamp lighters thin ice joe crak head samuel lau calgary alberta comfortably numb reksa fans oulu gail hiebert gee man but wait theres more marcs maulers danielle leblanc bobby schmautz fan club ottawa bearcats boops bets triple timo ojala flying pigs the eradicators van isle colonists commitments bure blur great scott weasels tequila shooters whiters frasses faceplants high stickers mak paranjape lord stanley favourites san jose mahi mahi mann mariners jfz dream team stacey ross louisiana psycho killers coupe stainless fighting amish evan pritchard stanias stars pens dynasty oceanweavers gagit myllypuro hedgehogs arm hammer legzryx chapman chaps dean martin cherry bombers sluggo hosers anson mak knights power play canuck force butt ends beam team jukurit chapman sticks ken cruyenaere gax goons tampere salami sparky select hillside raiders eldoret elephants jane world the alarmers rolaids required chip dale brian bergman killer kings montys nords arsenal maple leafs martin gag equipe jour lisa luggers andrew scott andrew idacom com idacom telecom operation ext during the roman era was considered old
rec.sport.hockey	canada sweden the world champioships article apr venus hollandc white venus hollandc take baby writes today the world championships munich canada scored impressive victory over the defending world champs sweden believe that was rod brind amour scored the third kevin white white venus hollandc allen larsen university victoria plarsen sanjuan uvic
rec.sport.hockey	minnesota scene those who are wondering what happening minnesota from what have seen the local news and newspaper various people the area are trying get new hockey team columnist for the paul pioneer press wrote article giving the inside scoop the issue there are three local sites competing for team and three possible candiates move the twin cities first the sites target center civic center paul and yes even the met center the columnist was pretty confident that minnesota will get team and that the target center will ultimately win out argued however that the competition from the other two sites will delay the process considerably without the inter site competition the columnist sorry can remember his name believes that minnesota would have team the season also because the situation with the timberwolves things will delayed until unless the city minneapolis takes over the target center however they are unlikely until the met center destroyed because the city will lose money there competition from the met for conventions and short term events even with hockey target add this mess study months going conducted the future viability the met center which obviously delays the process even further hope that the study cancelled which will have the effect knocking the met center out the running and perhaps encouraging minneapolis take over the target center sooner the city would even more encourged the wrecking ball taken the met which may happen regarding possible candidates the three teams are hartford tampa bay and new jersey would prefer the devils minnesota ice demons although the lightning may have potential although hasn been announced yet looks like neutral site games will played the target center next year apparently the devils are interested playing many those six games possible and wouldn surprised see hartford and tampa show there either minnesota may end getting another team but may take few years sabres robert andolina former buffalonian living minneapolis randolin polisci umn edu
rec.sport.hockey	aargh great hockey coverage devils robbie rap psuvm psu edu writes gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare says mean that the original poster was looking for devils victory the tape delay and didn happen game was the original poster and was just complaint about the coverage meaningless yankee game before playoff devils game apologize then misinterpreted you problem offence taken all the teams the patrick least dislike the devils sad just lover the sport that this team can the metro new york area for over decade and still exist just non entity how espn coverage anyways think starts tonight getting the sabres bruins the replacement game and probably are you while the devils penguins game played scny and the islanders caps are the overflow game the sca scny plus the sabres bruins ends early then the devils penguins game assuming that espn follows their previous patterns got the last minute the islanders rangers and all the overtime two weeks ago espn coverage started last night accident but one more other writers have pointed out they could gone wild hog wrestling for the evening instead gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	schedule mre teal eng sun com mike eisler writes gld cunixb columbia edu gary dare writes can believe that espn making sportschannel america look good but only philadelphia and chicago everywhere else the only reason sportschannel was available was for local baseball broadcasts yes point well taken however even areas that finally got some games there something nagging the back your skull when the network that has the national rights its pocket says its sports news there awesome overtime going quebec city and try get you update through the show when you know that satellite feedhorn somewhere there people want hockey they should watch hockey bet the ratings for hockey sunday abc went into the toilet from today times abc got great ratings chicago and louis and the kings flames got the west coast but only metro new york the devils squandered their newfound support from year ago when they played the rangers comparison seniors golf did better next week there will far fewer abc affiliates with hockey fear that the overall national numbers will not great can tell abc did any advance marketing not cos don watch much the nhl should have made sure that was solid cable before going the air even espn could sold second rights third party systems non sportschannel since they are not making any extra money sitting the games hockey fans will not necessarily watching pre season beach volleyball playoffs games aren being shown somewhere gld souviens gary dare gld columbia edu winnipeg jets gld cunixc bitnet selanne domi stanley
rec.sport.hockey	 need all the players wearing the nhl know now only one ray borque for the bruins any help would greatly appreciated thanx the logistician reigns supreme blue tigers pistons lions red wings ching wpi wpi edu
rec.sport.hockey	thumbs espn agree was great for the espn people show the detroit game roommate just about when they threw the octopus the ice thanks for explaining the significance that btw the only problem had was when they blotted out the local commentators with the baseball ads and music especially when the wings player hit the rut and went into the boards injuring his shoulder and they blotted out the injury report other then that hats off espn now they only make habit this yeah right baseball seasons started zzzzzz koz lets caps
rec.sport.hockey	atlanta hockey hell dir someone give sportchannel call maybe ted turner wasn usa network covering the playoffs years ago jim back the good old days when lived florida florida for petes sake and could watch hockey every night espn and usa alternated coverage nights well guess would too simple for the home office look back into their past solve problem the present course shouldn complain least getting watch the playoffs for change hooray now the espn schedulers will realise there are other teams except pittsberg the patrick sounds like suess book koz lets caps
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns article suh tsegw tse com mhembruc tsegw tse com mattias hembruch writes hell anderson anderson can days past get under peoples skin put little more bluntly anderson has asshole used good need him now agreed anderson was nowhere last night well what you expect burns was playing him with krushelnyski and baumgartner anderson finisher unless you play him with someone can get him the puck finishing position ain going much scoring gerald
rec.sport.hockey	hockey coverage this general question for readers how extensive the playoff coverage down there canada almost impossible not watch series the only two series have not had opportunity watch this year are wash nyi and chi stl the latter because the wrong time zone canada are basically swamped with coverage and wonder how many series games are televised nationally even locally the and how much precedence they take over say local news the games into double email not waste bandwidth please news feed kind slow anyways
rec.sport.hockey	probert and wendall game two the detroit toronto series will rougher game believe that clark will coming out hitting all cylindars believe that probert will take exception this and fight between clark and probert will result know this sounds kind ridiculous but know game two toronto will come out hitting any takers this issue
rec.sport.hockey	hey what about teh cannucks all due living the bay area unable see vancouver victory over the jets last night know the score but that rarely describes the game could someone please post brief sonapsis waht happened how well did each team play were the cannucks deserving the victory also could some kind soul please email the end season individual player stats greg vancouver for the cup virtual reality
rec.sport.hockey	you were pat burns jason cockroft jake rambler eng sun com wrote what are the leafs leaf supporter and say the leafs are going down four unless there nothing short miracle stroke genenius hits root for another team andreychuck and borchevsky have business playing against the wings they are too small the key any leafs success will have clark the only centre who can have andreychuk not small slow and sloth like maybe but about and that not what would consider small aside the big andreychunk call him has been known disappear come playoff time this was one his main problems when playing for buffalo leafs sabres dave blaszyk mail dvb snowmass ssd kodak com mail eastman kodak plant bldg rochester new york
rec.sport.hockey	how beat the pens you can but good luck trying jim
rec.sport.hockey	how beat pittsburgh article apr guvax acc georgetown edu apanjabi guvax acc georgetown edu writes article afnkovk uhb rdtj andrew cmu edu robert angelo pleshar andrew cmu edu writes kfnjyea vmus andrew cmu edu nntp posting host andrew cmu edu reply kfnjyea vmus andrew cmu edu from anna matyas now could just clone chelios personality and transplant into all the defensemen the islanders capitals and devils gerald other words you want turn them all into assholes they will spend lots time the penalty box and get lots misconducts and this comes from chelios fan yeah and also second the team scoring and play about minutes game and play the power play and kill penalties and the best defenseman the league take whole team chelioses could that way when one got penalty the others could kill ralph how beat pittsburgh mario lemieux death too much kimo slash skull ask the rangers slashing his wrist jaromir jagr deportation send him back whatever commie country from tell him that bill clinton going too iii kevin stevens fighting call bob probert call tie domi call grandmother she kick his ass since everybody wants see pittsburgh players not playing the stanley cup would devaluated iskander ayari email iskander ayari loria ayari loria
rec.sport.hockey	smiths birthday goal was leafs all the way article wty mcs anl gov mwm aps anl gov michael mcdowell writes article undergrad math uwaterloo kwk chow descartes uwaterloo kevin writes thanks for the goals steve smith don see why more people don blame grant fuhr for the goal that smith put his own net common play the puck back your own goalie when deep your own end and under little pressure from the offensive team fuhr had been position the puck would have never crossed the line from this account doesn sound like you even saw the goal mike smith came out from behind his own net and fired breakout pass that hit fuhr the back the leg fuhr was backing the time and never saw what happened the puck went straight off fuhr leg and into the net fuhr never had chance there was play back the goaltender fact perry berezan calgary had just dumped and smith was retrieving was unfortunate that happened smith nice guy and was only rookie the time and his birthday too but all the blame lies with him starting pee wee coaches tell players never make cross ice pass front their own net too much chance having intercepted hitting the goaltender whatever and the people who say that smith cost the oilers the series can only say that certainly didn cause the team lose the other three games there was reason for powerhouse team like edmonton tied late the third period the game the second round everybody the team has take responsibility for them even being that situation alan
rec.sport.hockey	potvin new goalie mask article allan swanlake allan ualberta allan sullivan writes slegge kean ucs mun writes was wtahcing right guard hockey week tsn yesterday and they had feature this guy that does lot most the masks for nhl goalies they talked about how they are made what they are made and the designs that are put them etc the best one all was one never talked about just held has the current leafs crest the chin and awesome looking black panther the forehead has new mask for felix potvin but never said whose was are you sure this program was current know that grant fuhr had black panther the forehead his mask when played with the leafs would seem logical that the mask potvins his nickname the cat which would long ways towards explaining the panther course could old story and the mask fuhrs too alan
rec.sport.hockey	help help help does anyone have the nhl standings for march need them immediately for project please post email thanks andy hillery school architecture state university new york buffalo
rec.sport.hockey	smiths birthday goal was leafs all the way article juna cpsc ucalgary layfield cpsc ucalgary colin layfield writes article wty mcs anl gov mwm aps anl gov writes article undergrad math uwaterloo kwk chow descartes uwaterloo kevin writes thanks for the goals steve smith don see why more people don blame grant fuhr for the goal that smith put his own net common play the puck back your own goalie when deep your own end and under little pressure from the offensive team fuhr had been position the puck would have never crossed the line mike mcdowell have disagree with you this one anything but common the years have been watching hockey have never seen this happen ever not sure what league you have been watching anyone else agree with this yes colin have agree with you here put the puck own net the same way smith did only once mind you and was definitely fault not common play play the puck the way that smith did luckily for when did was only scrimmage craig
rec.sport.hockey	blues into playoffs beat dave luecking the post dispatch staff thursday night the scoreboard watchers the arena began cheer their cheer quickly turned into roar and finally the sellout crowd rose one rock the old barn oakland avenue salute the playoff bound blues the scoreboard had just flashed the news from detroit red wings stars with the north stars loss the blues officially clinched fourth place and the final playoff spot the norris division good thing because the blues quit playing they held lead over tampa bay when the detroit minnesota final appeared with minutes remaining the second period they promptly went sleep and barely held for victory that nearly slipped away the buzzer tampa bob beers tipped pass from shawn chambers but officiating supervisor john amico and video goal judge rich schweigler ruled that the shot had gone into the net after time had expired glad didn see the end blues coach bob berry said the goal had counted have been more upset than was the blues disappearance the final minutes holding for the victory and making the playoffs tempered berry anger wasn pretty the end said played great minutes good played all year slipped away the end shouldn have but did still the blues won prompting another ovation from the crowd game end despite their shoddy effort the third period and all the turmoil this season the blues still made the playoffs they meet the chicago blackhawks best seven norris division semifinal beginning noon sunday chicago stadium the blues finished the regular season with record for points their fourth consecutive plus season minnesota finished three points behind fifth place with record for points tampa bay which played spoiler last week tying the blues tampa ended its first season with record for points the poor finish cast unnecessary shadow over what should have been joyous blues locker room instead the mood was one relief and some disappointment shame let down said kevin miller one three blues score two goals brendan shanahan and bob bassen were the others there was need for letdown have kept working would have ended and everyone would happy instead lot players were happy just make the playoffs won and that all that matters said brett hull scoreless and minus for the night once got was really tough play some players didn have problem just because the score was announced our line didn quit said rich sutter who played with bassen and miller still had game play you can allow five goals like did that not right was disappointing see what was going bassen was almost frantic the bench because the blues effort somehow missed the announcement minnesota loss didn know was final said was kind looking around the bench didn realize was final for some reason the playoffs and that great but little disappointing play like did the end the letdown was precisely the reason that berry had instructed the scoreboard operators keep the minnesota detroit score off the board the score showed until first popped with detroit leading the third period the blues already led the time told them didn want see the score didn want know the score berry said felt had win the game and that the approach took minnesota took lead berry feared the pressure having win might bother the blues detroit led worried the blues might quit until the announcement the blues played splendidly shanahan got the crowd going the first period scoring his the season then miller and bassen took charge late the period with the teams playing four four miller broke left wing deked defenseman roman hamrlik and beat former blues goalie pat jablonski with the rebound his own shot with seconds remaining the period then just seconds later bassen rifled long slap shot past jablonski after defenseman rick zombo intercepted tampa pass the neutral zone bassen made just seconds into the second period scoring the rebound bret hedican shot the goal gave him his first two goal game the season and reminded him special friend last year bassen befriended young oliver mulvihill who died rare form cancer age feb was thinking buddy oliver bassen said heaven now and know was watching know happy miller increased the blues lead break away goal set zombo then steve maltais broke curtis joseph shutout just seconds later making less than minute after the north stars final was announced tim bergland scored and cut the lead but shanahan scored his converting pass from nelson emerson with seconds remaining the second period then was all lightning adam creighton scored seconds into the third period prompting berry rest the overworked joseph guy hebert allowed goals shawn chambers and danton cole span midway through the third period the goals chambers and cole made shanahan second goal stand the winner were there shanahan said the game was over were joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	nhl results for games played nhl results for games played standings patrick adams norris smythe xpit xbos xchi xvan ywas yque ydet ycal ynj ymon ytor yla ynyi ybuf stl ywin phl har min edm nyr ott clinched division title clinched playoff berth boston bruins ottawa senators period bos roberts juneau bos wiemer juneau oates period bos neely juneau murphy bos hughes richer kimble ott archibald rumble lamb period ott boschman kudelski powerplay opportunities bruins senators shots goal bruins senators boston bruins moog shots saves blue second shots saves ottawa senators sidorkiewicz shots saves berthiaume third shots saves att washington capitals new york rangers period none period none period was bondra pivonka cavallini was bondra cote pivonka powerplay opportunities capitals rangers shots goal capitals rangers washington capitals tabaracci shots saves new york rangers richter shots saves att new york islanders hartford whalers period nyi ferraro malakhov king nyi hogue thomas turgeon har yake poulin har yake nylander poulin period har verbeek cassels weinrich nyi thomas king ferraro period har burt sanderson cassels nyi malakhov hogue overtime har janssens poulin powerplay opportunities islanders whalers shots goal islanders whalers new york islanders fitzpatrick shots saves hartford whalers lenaduzzi shots saves att pittsburgh penguins new jersey devils period pit daniels needham tippett njd lemieux semak driver pit stevens tocchet murphy njd zelepukin driver niedermayer period pit lemieux stevens tocchet njd semak lemieux zelepukin pit mceachern jagr barrasso njd stevens guerin pellerin pit lemieux njd richer nicholls njd lemieux semak zelepukin period pit mullen jagr lemieux overtime none powerplay opportunities penguins devils shots goal penguins devils pittsburgh penguins barrasso shots saves new jersey devils billington shots saves att spike
rec.sport.hockey	smiths birthday goal was leafs all the way article wty mcs anl gov mwm aps anl gov writes article undergrad math uwaterloo kwk chow descartes uwaterloo kevin writes thanks for the goals steve smith don see why more people don blame grant fuhr for the goal that smith put his own net common play the puck back your own goalie when deep your own end and under little pressure from the offensive team fuhr had been position the puck would have never crossed the line mike mcdowell have disagree with you this one anything but common the years have been watching hockey have never seen this happen ever not sure what league you have been watching anyone else agree with this colin layfield religion and sex are power plays manipulate the people for the money they pay the university calgary selling skin selling god computer science the numbers look the same their credit cards layfield cpsc ucalgary queensryche
rec.sport.hockey	european expansion and our cked system how long would they support teams that are run ranger based corporate thinking use the term lightly don need good product because these duffuses nyc would fill the arena for ottawa record every year haha sorry had say look how long the maple leafs and nordiques used similar logic not that they fielded bad teams solely field bad teams but the maple leafs and certain dead man who was charge were one the cheapest teams the history the sport guess what they were immensely popular the gate the nordiques have also done well for team that had missed the playoffs many years row look british any european soccer example they never have fan problems such humor they have major fan problems namely that occasion some them don make home from the match the soccer fans tend fanatical much like the montreal fans who firebomb the players and coaches houses when they play pathetically jpc john curcio bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor
rec.sport.hockey	schedule for next week article apr yuma acns colostate edu mmb lamar colostate edu michael burger writes united states schedule april devils islanders pittsburgh est abc eastern time zone april louis chicago cdt abc cent mou time zones april los angeles calgary pdt abc pacific time zone april devils islanders pittsburgh espn april tba espn april tba espn does anyone know there will alternate games cities where local broadcast rights are being protected really love see the bruins couple times and with this pro patrick bias shown espn something tells that will have wait until the conference finals see them jpc john curcio bruins philips laboratories jpc philabs philips com scarborough road briarcliff manor
rec.sport.hockey	the hawks will return the finals article itg uxa ecn bgu edu cubrj uxa ecn bgu edu brian johnson writes well now that the hawks have won the division the road little easier for the playoffs let toronto and detroit beat the hell out each other while chicago sweeps louis that just makes easier the second round with all the rest they will get and tor det getting none for the conf champ they will have hard time versus the division but that div will pretty battered also the advantage goes the hawks again then bring pitt and sure the hawks will probably lose but its better get that far and lose than not brian hopefully miracle not quite miracle but close will occur and pittsburgh will elminated prior the finals they make again they will probably keep the cup they don the hawks turn blackhawks congrats jeremy roenick for being only the hawks player post back back goal seasons scott
rec.sport.hockey	the hawks will return the finals article itg uxa ecn bgu edu cubrj uxa ecn bgu edu brian johnson writes well now that the hawks have won the division the road little easier for the playoffs let toronto and detroit beat the hell out each other while chicago sweeps louis that just makes easier brian don sure the blues played the hawks pretty well this season and won twice the stadium the blues will give the hawks hard time this series one the best first round matchups could either way the hawks will probably prevail seven games joe ashkar contact for the blues saint louis jca cec wustl edu blues
rec.sport.hockey	nhl summary parse results for games played thur april philadelphia buffalo first period philadelphia recchi galley lindros second period philadelphia hawgood dineen eklund philadelphia dineen mcgill buffalo barnaby hawerchuk smehlik buffalo wood lafontaine ledyard buffalo mogilny hawerchuk carney third period philadelphia eklund dineen beranek buffalo mogilny errey lafontaine philadelphia dineen brind amour philadelphia dineen brind amour galley philadelphia acton dineen brind amour philadelphia power play special goals total scorer pts acton beranek brind amour dineen eklund galley hawgood lindros mcgill recchi buffalo power play scorer pts barnaby carney errey hawerchuk lafontaine ledyard mogilny smehlik wood minnesota detroit first period minnesota mcphee ludwig second period minnesota dahlen courtnall gagner detroit drake howe ogrodnick detroit ysebaert lidstrom howe third period detroit ciccarelli coffey chiasson detroit kennedy burr probert detroit yzerman ciccarelli gallant minnesota dahlen courtnall gagner detroit power play scorer pts burr chiasson ciccarelli coffey drake gallant howe kennedy lidstrom ogrodnick probert ysebaert yzerman minnesota power play scorer pts courtnall dahlen gagner ludwig mcphee edmonton winnipeg first period winnipeg shannon steen davydov second period winnipeg selanne olausson winnipeg zhamnov selanne third period scoring winnipeg power play scorer pts davydov olausson selanne shannon steen zhamnov edmonton power play scoring toronto chicago first period toronto baumgartner unassisted second period chicago roenick murphy chelios toronto andreychuk mironov lefebvre chicago murphy roenick chelios third period chicago matteau unassisted error power play goal mismatch assuming calc value error team toronto calc read chicago power play scorer pts chelios matteau murphy roenick toronto power play scorer pts andreychuk baumgartner lefebvre mironov first period louis shanahan brown felsner louis miller bassen brown louis bassen zombo second period louis bassen hedican miller louis miller zombo hedican tampa bay maltais hamrlik tampa bay bergland hervey gilhen louis shanahan emerson third period tampa bay creighton bergland bergevin tampa bay chambers zamuner cole tampa bay cole beers bradley louis power play scorer pts bassen brown emerson felsner hedican miller shanahan zombo tampa bay power play scorer pts beers bergevin bergland bradley chambers cole creighton gilhen hamrlik hervey maltais zamuner san jose calgary first period scoring second period san jose garpenlov odgers gaudreau calgary nieuwendyk macinnis suter calgary ranheim otto suter calgary yawney nieuwendyk roberts calgary berube paslawski skrudland third period san jose wood odgers kisio calgary reichel unassisted calgary roberts musil paslawski san jose kisio unassisted calgary paslawski ashton stern calgary power play scorer pts ashton berube macinnis musil nieuwendyk otto paslawski ranheim reichel roberts skrudland stern suter yawney san jose power play scorer pts garpenlov gaudreau kisio odgers wood vancouver los angeles first period los angeles robitaille gretzky sandstrom vancouver babych craven nedved los angeles sandstrom gretzky robitaille second period vancouver linden ronning courtnall vancouver ward hunter nedved los angeles gretzky sandstrom robitaille los angeles zhitnik kurri robitaille los angeles millen hardy third period vancouver ronning dirk vancouver ronning courtnall linden vancouver linden courtnall ronning los angeles donnelly millen granato vancouver courtnall ronning ratushny vancouver ronning linden diduck vancouver power play special goals total scorer pts babych courtnall craven diduck dirk hunter linden nedved ratushny ronning ward los angeles power play scorer pts donnelly granato gretzky hardy kurri millen robitaille sandstrom zhitnik
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask update here are the results after three days voting remember pts for for and for also you can still turn votes and the guy isn regular goalie retired please include the team thanks for your time and keep sending those votes player team pts votes brian hayward san jose andy moog boston curtis joseph louis belfour chicago gerry cheevers boston retired manon rheaume atlanta ihl ron hextall quebec don beaupre washington others receiving vote artus irbe tim cheveldae det clint malarchuck buf ihl grant fuhr buf rick wamsley tor ret jon casey minn john vanbiesbrouck nyr ken dryden mon ret bob essensa win mike vernon cal glenn healy nyi tommy soderstron ray leblanc usa skins now for the next question does emotional music have quite braves effect you mike patton faith more hornets capitals mike friedman hrivnak fan internet gtd prism gatech edu
rec.sport.hockey	ahl calder cup playoff schedule and results calder cup playoff schedule and results home team caps necesary first round springfield indians providence bruins springfield providence springfield providence providence springfield islanders adirondack red wings last night cdi adirondack cdi adirondack adirondack cdi adirondack cdi cdi adirondack adirondack cdi cdi adirondack baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers baltimore binghamton baltimore binghamton binghamton baltimore binghamton baltimore baltimore binghamton binghmaton baltimore baltimore binghamton utica devils rochester americans utica rochester utica rochester rochester utica rochester utica utica rochester rochester utica utica rochester moncton hawks john maple leafs john moncton moncton john halifax john moncton cape breton oilers fredericton canadiens fredericton cape breton cape breton fredericton unfortunately the newspaper didnt list complete playoff skeds for series that already began also the paper has not listed final standings their posting might delayed until early next week hockey news bri farenell farenebt craft camp clarkson edu ahl and ecac contact for rec sport hockey usa hockey adirondack red wings calder cup champs clarkson hockey ecac tournament champs glens falls high hockey division state champs ahl fans join the ahl mailing list ahl news request andrew cmu edu congrats the boston bruins adams division champions phoenix suns pacific division champions
rec.sport.hockey	bridgman out slacelle gandalf stephane lacelle writes the ottwawa senators fired mel bridgman today randy sexton gonna replace him trashy move from trashy organization after the front office stated that nobody would lose their job over the sens poor performance bridgeman gone within hours the teams final game yes know screwed letting the king grab loach sexton qualifications aside from being cheap played some college hockey pals with club president bruce firestone just the kind experience you need when trying build expansion franchise probably the hall fame next year this continues tradition front office gaffs paul anka and the arena deal denis potvin and the postion mike bossy and the scoring coach how people ottawa feel about how the club being run stephane lacelle brian down bdown vis toronto edu
rec.sport.hockey	goalies heard that you can score belfour shooting high because goes down lot and potvin shooting high him and then getting the rebound because plays deep the net any truth these brad wings fan but predictions
rec.sport.hockey	stop predicting apr ncsu edu cdkaupan eos ncsu edu carl david kaupang writes really annoying see all these predictions the net who really cares who you think will win please stop with the predictions all know the caps are going win the cup let that david kaupang cdkaupan eos ncsu edu yeah but first they have deal with the devils who had their number all year not saying the caps aren good team they been thorn the habs side for the past years just that they won get past paul yatrou yatrou inrs telecom uquebec running pool today wish luck
rec.sport.hockey	truly sad day for hockey farewell minnesota fans get stuffed dallas stars the north stars fade black hope that minneapolis paul are not long without nhl team just seems right that the hotbed amateur hockey the usa should have nhl team well the loss the team certainly not the fault the fans though the start the season made look real bad for while wish now that kept the north stars cap bought maple leaf gardens the morning after they eliminated montreal got spite the montreal fans the small town where grew what glorious season that was for the north stars dwarf jim jordan don mean tell you how live dwarf gate bnr internet your life that what the for work for bnr not speak for but didn believe jesus going hell peter heath
rec.sport.hockey	goalie mask update article hydra gatech edu gtd prism gatech edu hrivnak writes here are the results after three days voting remember pts for for and for also you can still turn votes and the guy isn regular goalie retired please include the team thanks for your time and keep sending those votes glenn healy nyi tommy soderstron ray leblanc usa soderstrom plays with philly but doesn have moulded mask got the helmet and cage variety white least that what wore thirteen hours ago valerie hammerl some days have remind him not hammerl acsu buffalo edu mario lemieux herb brooks claude acscvjh ubms buffalo edu lemieux top scorer for the devils but pwwpz ubvms buffalo edu known for taking dumb penalties
rec.sport.hockey	ahl season review off ice stuff article apr news clarkson edu farenebt craft camp clarkson edu droopy writes senators sold stuff deleted the senators are currently serious negotiations with charlottetown new brunswick and are expected move there has been announced that the senators will move their ahl franchise charlottetown prince edward island not new brunswick charlie cook charlie calvin unb
rec.sport.hockey	hot cold streaks guys need list the teams who have been hot cold during the last games doesn need accurate rough guess will about enter playoff pool and want know who hot going into the playoffs don need mention pittsburgh they can get any hotter than they are now need this sunday yvon lavoie
rec.sport.hockey	ahl playoff results game adirondack cdi adirondack leads series first round springfield indians providence bruins springfield providence springfield providence providence springfield providence springfield springfield providence providence springfield springfield providence islanders adirondack red wings adirondack cdi cdi adirondack adirondack cdi adirondack cdi cdi adirondack adirondack cdi cdi adirondack baltimore skipjacks binghamton rangers baltimore binghamton baltimore binghamton binghamton baltimore bing